May 4, 2000 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS Vol. XLIV No.

The House met at 2:00 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

Before we begin our routine proceedings, I would like to welcome to the

gallery today thirteen Grades IX to XII students from B.L. Morrison School in

Postville, in the District of Torngat Mountains. They are accompanied by

teachers, Keith Jacque and Carmen Sheppard.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: As well, we have eight Level II and Level III students from

Victoria Academy in Gaultois, in the District of Fortune Bay-Cape La Hune. These

students are accompanied by their teachers, Mr. Glen Rogers and Ms Nancy

Ruelland ,and I would like to welcome them to the gallery as well.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Statements by Members

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Terra Nova.

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I want, today, to pay tribute to one of

Musgravetown's leading citizens, Tony Vincent, who passed away suddenly on

Friday, April 14, at the age of forty-five. Tony was a unique, special person

and special friend of mine.

Tony Vincent spent most of his working life with Marine Atlantic, and shortly

before his death was promoted to the role of Assistant Chief Steward; however,

Tony is best remembered for his involvement in the local community, as a great

deal of his time and energy was spent doing volunteer work. Mr. Vincent was a

founding member of the Musgravetown Fire Department and was heavily involved

with the local Lions Club. He was also named citizen of the year in the

community for his tireless efforts to make Musgravetown a better place in which

to live.

Mr. Speaker, Tony Vincent was a pillar of the community of Musgravetown and

all its citizens are saddened by the news of his passing. I want to send my

deepest sympathy to his wife, Jill, his children, Matthew and Vanessa, his

parents, Fred and Audrey Vincent, as well as the rest of his family and friends

on the loss of this great citizen of Musgravetown. He will be remember for his

energy and his commitment to the town and will be sorely missed.

In recognition of and respect for Tony's tremendous civic contribution to

his community, many of my colleagues on this side of the House, and I know the

Member for Bonavista South, attended the funeral.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

This past weekend, representatives of the Iron Ore Company of Canada and the

United Steel Workers of America traveled to Halifax and were presented with an

award from the Conference Board of Canada. The award is called The Top Employer

of Youth Award, and the Iron Ore Company was this year's provincial recipient.

The award came as a result of a program negotiated between the company and

the union that has 120 students enrolled at the Labrador West campus of the

College of the North Atlantic. The students will attend the program for three

years, spending an equal number of semesters in the classroom and on-the-job

practical training with pay. Those students will meet the identified future

needs of their local labour market.

In addition to the 120 currently enrolled, there are plans to train an

additional 120 beginning in September, 2001. Upon completion of the program,

these students will go into well-paying jobs, contributing significantly to both

the local and provincial economies.

I am sure this House joins me in congratulating the Iron Ore Company of

Canada on being the recipient of this award and also for their vision, in

cooperation with the union, in creating the employee of the future training

program.

Statements by Ministers

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Agrifoods.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to take this opportunity to inform Members of the House of

Assembly that we have declared the 2000 fire season under the Province's

Forestry Act. This order is in effect on the Island of Newfoundland as of

midnight, April 28, 2000; however, on the Avalon Peninsula it has been in effect

since April 15. In Labrador, the regulations will come into effect as of

midnight, May 13, 2000. All of these regulations will be enforced until

midnight, Sunday, September 17, 2000.

In accordance with forest fire regulations, I have advised the public that

during forest fire season, every person setting a fire for the purpose of

clearing land or brush on forest land, or within 300 meters of forest land, must

obtain a permit to burn. The public can apply for a burning permit at any

Forestry and Wildfire office in the Province. In addition, copies of the 2000

Forest Fire regulations are also available at these offices.

This year we have experienced low snow coverage during the winter months on

the Island portion of the Province, resulting in the spring surface drying. This

situation creates a potential forest fire hazard. We urge the public to exercise

extreme caution when burning or traveling on or near forest land.

Based on a ten year average, the 1999 fire season in Newfoundland and

Labrador was above average in terms of number of hectares burnt. The Province

recorded 228 fires, which burnt a total of 39,291 hectares. Although the

majority of the land burnt was non-commercial forest land in Labrador, there

were large fires in the central region of the Island that consumed a large

portion of commercial forest land that has been recorded since 1989. In

addition, there was a higher than normal number of lightening caused forest

fires on the Island. Out of the 228 fires that were reported, 176 were human

caused and fifty-two were caused by lightening.

Our department is prepared for the 2000 fire season. We presently have our

normal complement of six CL-215 water bombers and crews; however, two of our

water bombers are on contract to North Carolina. If the need arises, these two

aircraft can be returned to the Province within forty-eight hours. The two

aircraft in question are stationed in Labrador, where the fire season

traditionally starts later than on the Island. These aircraft are scheduled to

return on May 20 or earlier. In addition, our ground crews will be brought on

over the next few weeks.

It is only through the cooperation of our fellow Newfoundlanders and

Labradorians who work in our forests and those who enjoy our forests for

recreation can we reduce the risk of forest fires.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Windsor-Springdale.

MR. HUNTER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I thank the minister for forwarding a copy of his statement this afternoon.

It is a very important issue when it comes to forest fires in Newfoundland and

Labrador. We cannot afford to loose any of this resource. This resource is a

precious commodity to our Province. It creates a lot of jobs in our Province. I

hope that the people of this Province would sincerely look at eliminating the

threat to our forests. One-hundred and seventy-six fires were caused by human

hands: that is unbelievable, that we can see this number of fires being caused

last year.

I hope this year that people will be very careful and consider the

implications of forest fires and the devastation that it causes to our forests.

Also, I would like to say to the minister too that probably we could encourage

the Department of Forest Resources and Agrifoods to look at these areas that

have been burnt over and come out with a more in-depth silviculture program for

burnt over areas that seem to regenerate a lot slower than cut over areas.

I would like to see a program put in place to specifically deal with burnt

over areas so that we can encourage the new growth there earlier than what would

come on a natural basis, Mr. Speaker.

I thank you very much.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I cannot help but recognize or acknowledge the greater importance being

placed by the public, and certainly by the department, in the interests in our

forestry sector. This here is an issue that I think everybody can relate to.

What is interesting here is that we all know that lightening generated fires

play a role in regenerating forests, but here we have a situation where more

than three times that number of fires are actually caused by human action. This

is something that the public can play a role in, in eliminating forest fires.

I want to acknowledge that the department certainly seems to be ready with

existing aircraft and the ability to bring back aircraft from North Carolina to

meet any pressing need in the forest fire industry.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

The hon. the President of Treasury Board.

MS THISTLE: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in this House today and

update my hon. colleagues on the success of the Opening Doors Program.

This program has evolved over the past twelve years to become a very

successful and unique public sector employment equity initiative for persons

with disabilities.

I am delighted to report that Opening Doors has created over fifty-five

permanent positions that are attached to various provincial government

departments and funded through an annual budget of $1.5 million. These are

long-term positions which can only be filled by persons with disabilities.

These fifty-five employees are scattered throughout the Province, working in

such positions as word processing equipment operators, computer programmers,

technicians, analysts, public information officer, statistical officer, mail

room clerk, and micro-graphic technician.

The Opening Doors Program has formed four partnerships between provincial and

federal departments and agencies to further improve the representation of

persons with disabilities in the public service at both levels of government.

These positions are funded by the federal partners involved in these

initiatives.

Our provincial program serves as a recruitment agency for the Public Service

Commission of Canada through a partnership called JEEPS.

The result is that not only has the Opening Doors Program been very

successful in increasing the number of persons with disabilities in the

provincial public service, but an additional fifty persons have obtained

positions with the federal public service in Newfoundland and Labrador.

Although some of those jobs are for temporary positions, they are often

extended and the individuals are given the opportunity to gain valuable work

experience, making them more competitive in future job competitions.

I am also very pleased to report that Opening Doors is now entering the third

year of partnerships with Human Resources Development Canada and the Province's

Department of Human Resources and Employment.

Another forty-two persons with disabilities have gained meaningful employment

in either the federal or provincial public service through the wage subsidy

program offered through these two partnerships.

Opening Doors also has a partnership with the Canadian Council on

Rehabilitation and Work involving an annual commitment from the council of

$54,000. That funding has established the Opening Doors Career Development

Centre as the Provincial WorkInk Site. WorkInc provides online employment

resources for job seekers with disabilities.

The Opening Doors Centre also serves as a resource for persons with

disabilities helping them prepare resumes as well as prepare them for the all

important job interview.

I also point out that persons with disabilities living outside St. John's

can access the services and programs of the centre from their home communities

through the advancements in technology.

I encourage all my honourable colleagues to visit the Opening Doors Career

Development Centre for Persons with Disabilities located on the fifth floor of

the West Block of Confederation Building. The six staff people at the Centre

will provide you with information about the services and programs and you will

view some of the new hi-tech equipment available to assist persons with

disabilities in carrying out their work.

It is because of this centre of excellence and its partners that the

provincial and federal public service in Newfoundland and Labrador are now more

representative of the public they serve. People with disabilities in this

Province now have more opportunities to find positions in the public service and

have better access to employment and professional development services.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We on this side join with the minister in supporting the Opening Doors

Program. Minister, it is a program that has made a great deal of difference to

the lives of many people in this Province and we acknowledge that it is a very

positive initiative on behalf of the government.

We want to acknowledge as well the part that is played by private enterprise,

by the businesses in this Province who also are hiring people with disabilities

as a consequence of involvement with programs like the Visions Employment Centre

in Mount Pearl, where we have groups that are funded, partly by the Province and

others. Through the initiatives and the work experience they gained through

groups like the Visions Employment Centre, they are then ready to take permanent

jobs in the free enterprise system. So, we want to acknowledge that. Of course,

we say in doing this that it is the government that has given the initiative and

has shown the leadership and that certainly is a positive thing.

We want to note as well the problem in rural Newfoundland, because we believe

that some of the programs that are available in St. John's and the other urban

centres - we could be doing more to expand services to some of the communities

that are more distanced from the growth centres.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I thank the minister for an advance copy of her statement. We too applaud any

effort that will enhance the opportunities for persons with disabilities to

obtain meaningful employment. I think it is important, also, to say that it is

important that the government and the public service create standards for the

rest of society to meet. I know that from years of having served on the Labrador

West Employment Corporation, trying to assist persons with disabilities to

obtain employment is not always easy to do so. I think initiatives such as this

will shed examples for people in the private sector and other areas of the

Province to follow.

I would also like to say that, from my involvement in this program in

Labrador West, I have always felt that there should be some sort of

acknowledgment for people who own businesses that employ persons with

disabilities. There should be some form of acknowledgment, probably from the

government, for these employers in show of appreciation in their efforts to

encompass all parts of society within their workplace.

We applaud the efforts of the minister.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you.

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today are for the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs.

Yesterday, your colleague released in this House some 1,500 pages of information

that was essentially generated by a Freedom of Information request written by

myself. It is not what was released that was interesting, I say to you,

Minister, but what was not released that is more interesting. Many, many aspects

of that document contain

section 14, which essentially means that they will not

release it because it could be injurious to provincial or federal relations.

Most of that information, I am told, was not released at the request of the

Department of Intergovernmental Affairs.

I would like to ask you today, Minister: Why didn't you release all of the

information yesterday? Why is government sitting behind the documents? What is

it they are afraid of with respect to this very important issue?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, I still am at a bit of a loss as to understand

why the Leader of the Opposition so desperately would like to find some way to

and the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador not to proceed with an in-feed

to the Island. No such decision has been taken.

accepting our position; otherwise we would have agreed to money for the in-feed

a long time ago. The suggestion is there might be some missing information. I

went looking, after yesterday, and found some other information that has been

around since some time last fall as a result of a Canadian press. I will table

that, if that is helpful, and if I can find anything else, the world can have

that as well. It is not a matter of not providing information.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. GRIMES: Any of the information that is in the public domain as a

gladly provide to anybody in Newfoundland and Labrador. So I will table this

additional information, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, this is interesting. It is really, really

getting interesting. The documents he is releasing now are ones I released prior

to Easter which his colleague, the real Minister of Mines and Energy, didn't

know what I was talking about.

What is interesting, I say to Mr. Grimes, is that what you are doing today,

Sir, is nothing but a charade and a sham. That is all it is.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member ought not to refer to members in the House by their name but

by their constituency.

MR. E. BYRNE: I am sorry, Mr. Speaker.

What the minister is doing today amounts to nothing but a charade and a sham.

What you have released, we have already released about an hour ago, I say to the

minister. I want to ask you this question.

What you released yesterday deals primarily with the federal forecast of the

economic growth in the Province for the next twenty years; their view, your

party's view, the federal party's view, of this Province for the next twenty

years. That is what the document says, I say to the minister. It paints a very,

very dismal picture of our prospects economically.

I would like to ask you, or whoever wants to answer it, this question. Maybe

the Minister of Finance would be more up to speed on this, seeing he is in

charge of the finance. Did the Province do anything to counter this outrageous

assessment of Newfoundland's economic prospects? Did you do your own study? I

believe you did. Why don't you table that, while you are at it? Did you do

your own study - when will you table it? - that counters this notion that this

Province is nothing but an economic backwater for the rest of the country? When

is it that you are going to stand up and table your response to that outrageous

assessment by the federal government, which you have been aware of for over two

years?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The negotiations and officials representing Newfoundland and Labrador have

dismissed out of hand, completely and totally, any representation by the

and Labrador is - if the Leader of the Opposition wants to describe it as a

basket case, or not going anywhere economically -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, we have never, ever agreed to, we don't agree

to, and that is not the vision of Newfoundland and Labrador that we have. That

is why there has been no conclusion yet to work of the joint committee, the

Newfoundland and Labrador; because obviously, as the Leader of the Opposition

would agree, there should be, and is, a very large difference of opinion as to

what the potential economic future is for Newfoundland and Labrador. That is why

the group yet hasn't concluded its joint study, because we were hoping they

were going to be able to jointly agree to a position. That hasn't occurred

because, as he has indicated, there is a very large difference of opinion as to

what the economic potential - twenty years, thirty years, or forty years time -

is for Newfoundland and Labrador.

MR. FITZGERALD: That is not what the Premier said.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE My colleague from Bonavista South is right; that is not what

the Premier said.

The fact of the matter that we are having this debate in this Legislature

today is a result of this caucus and myself pressing the federal government to

give us information that you would not.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, it is also clear that this government knew as

early as October of 1998 that there would be no transmission line, and they

failed to tell the people of the Province.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: I would like to ask the minister this question. He seems to

be the minister of all departments in government, so I will ask him this. The

federal analysis of our economic prospects surely is an insult, as you have just

agreed, to the people of the Province. Why didn't you, Minister - you and your

government - step forward before now and expose the federal view of this

Province to the people of the Province? Why did you sit around for two years,

sit on your political behinds, and do nothing but lend creditably to this

fundamentally wrong and misleading assessment not only of our Province but of

the people who reside here?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MR. GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, there is nothing to be served by continuing this

particular discussion. What we had agreed to are the following: In March of

1998, the Premiers of Newfoundland and Labrador and Quebec discussed the

possible development of a major new hydroelectric project in Labrador for the

benefit of Newfoundland and Labrador, the benefit of Quebec, and the benefit of

all of Canada. One part of that was to be a joint working group between the

determine whether or not an in-feed could be included as part of that overall

project.

That joint working group obviously has been having some very serious

differences of opinion for the whole period of time. That is why the work is

taking a lot longer, because Newfoundland and Labrador cannot agree, and will

not agree, and has not agreed, to some of the assumptions put forward by the

Canadian press, by the way, not made by the Opposition but made by the Canadian

Press, a correspondent back last fall - and the government, as a courtesy,

provided us with some of the documents that they had provided to the

correspondent for the Canadian Press. When the Leader of the Opposition also

as a courtesy that they had sent to the Leader of the Opposition.

As I have said, Mr. Speaker, anybody who wants those documents is welcome to

them. They are there for the public record and they can have them.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, again let me ask the minister: Isn't it true

that most of the

section that was whited out in the documents that were given to

me, was done at your request or at the government's request? That is the fact.

They didn't send it to you as a courtesy, Minister; you already had it. Isn't

that the fact?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MR. GRIMES: Maybe, Mr. Speaker, I can go back to my teaching days and try

again to instruct a little better as to how the Freedom of Information works for

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

under Freedom of Information, in an issue with which they were dealing with

another political jurisdiction - like another government, like in Newfoundland

and Labrador - they are free, under their legislation, to release each and every

single piece of information that is solely and entirely theirs. That is what

they have done.

In releasing information being done by a joint committee, they, every single

time, by law, must check with the jurisdiction which they are partnering with

and decide whether or not the information is solely the property of the

They are not at liberty to release information that they have gleaned or have

partnered with with the other jurisdiction. The only parts that are not released

information that is the property of the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador,

much of which is in the public domain anyway.

The debate is certainly in the public domain of Newfoundland and Labrador.

People do understand that the progress on the talks, both with Quebec and the

would like. I believe that the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, contrary and

opposite to the view and wish of the Opposition, still hope that we are

successful in our discussions with the Government of Quebec, and successful with

project rather than hope, like the Opposition does, that it all collapses so

they can have some political fun for a few days.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to ask the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs a question.

Surely his department, not the Ministry of Health, but the Ministry of

Intergovernmental Affairs - he is in his seat today - is dealing with the notion

of the emission credits. The question is this. The documents released today

clearly show that the federal government knew that the greenhouse gas credits

would not be available to finance the transmission line before March 9, 1998.

The information had to be passed on to the Province, minister. In fact, the

Premier talked about -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: That is the point, I say, minister -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member to get to his question.

MR. E. BYRNE: - there is no system, but your Premier was going to use the

system to finance the transmission line. That is the point!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member to get to his question.

MR. E. BYRNE: I would like to ask the minister this question. In view of

the fact that the statement that was sent to the Province - I know it was - was

that the central conclusion of this analysis is that the nature and design of

such a system will not be known -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member now to get to his question.

MR. E. BYRNE: - until well after a decision is required on whether or not

to proceed with the in-feed, how then can government make a statement that they

were going to use money from the sale of emission credits to finance the

transmission line when they were already told that the decision to do so could

not be made in time for the transmission line to be funded? How was it that the

ministry and you in your department could stand and make that statement?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

If the Leader of the Opposition is interested in an answer to the question, I

will certainly attempt to provide it. The issue of providing for the Government

of Canada an avenue whereby they could justify to the rest of Canada - that is

the whole point of this exercise that I am hoping he is still supporting the

people of Newfoundland and Labrador and the government in - we have to help the

interest to spend $2 billion to build an in-feed to the Island part of our

Province. He is obviously not very interested in helping us with that argument.

One of the several and many varied components that were presented to the

of swapping credits under the Kyoto agreement for greenhouse emissions, that

they could explain to the rest of the Canadians, who have always been suggesting

that they find it more and more difficult to keep sending money to Atlantic

Canada period - and the members opposite know what I am speaking about, because

their first cousins in Ontario, led by Premier Harris, are the very worst ones,

along with their other partners, the Canadian Alliance.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. GRIMES: The Canadian Alliance, or whatever the right name of the

party is because they do not seem to know if they are conservatives or not, Mr.

Speaker -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister now to conclude his answer quickly.

MR. GRIMES: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Because of the fact there are groups like

those led by the Government of Ontario that suggest that there should be very

close scrutiny for any money sent to a place they would like to describe as a

basket case like Newfoundland and Labrador - because that is there language. It

is not ours. It is conservative language primarily from Ontario that describes

Newfoundland and Labrador like that.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, the greenhouse emission credits was one of

several components that there has been no international agreement on as to how

it should work at this point -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister now to take his seat.

MR. GRIMES: - but there are several other components that were put to the

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The minister talks about going back to his teaching days. If he keeps it up

he will be back there sooner than he thinks, I believe. He did not answer the

question so I will ask him again. How does government make a statement on the

one hand that they are going to use the money from the emission credits to fund

a transmission line when they are in the possession of information from the

federal government which says that the central conclusion of this analysis is

that the nature and design of such a system will not be known until well after a

decision is required on whether or not to proceed with an in-feed? How do you

use money to fund a transmission line that the federal government has already

told you will not be there in time for them to make a decision to fund it? Could

he answer that question for us, please?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MR. GRIMES: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I guess the Leader of the Opposition was so

busy thinking up his next question that he did not listen to my last answer. I

indicated clearly that the idea of credit and cash related to greenhouse

emissions and the Kyoto Protocol was only one part and one of several parts and

rationale presented by the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador as to why the

in-feed.

It was not the fact that the Government of Newfoundland went and said: You

should build the in-feed, and the only reason you should do it because there

will be greenhouse emission credits. That is not the debate that has been going

on. It is clear that there is no agreement in the international community about

how these greenhouse emission credits will be valued, how they can be traded in

the international community and exactly what value they will have, but that is

only one component of the discussion that is going on between the Government of

Canada and the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador in our joint working

group. That joint working group has not yet reported, has not yet concluded its

work.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

The information released today clearly indicates that the Province knew that

Ottawa would not contribute a penny to the transmission line. It shows up again

and again in these papers. In fact, at each step of the way Ottawa said, and I

quote, that: they have only participated in these studies out of a spirit of

cooperation, and at each step of the way they reminded the Province -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: - Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Health would know this being

the former Minister of Mines and Energy - at each step of the way they reminded

the Province that the federal government's view, 1995 policy -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary. I ask him to get to his question.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, if I can get it out. If you can tame down the

cats over here, we will get to the question pretty quickly.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: The federal government clearly reminded the Province each

and every time that its 1995 policy, which this Premier helped develop, that it

would not participate in energy projects, megaprojects, any more. In view of

that I would like to ask you: Why did you and your government on March 9, 1998,

and several months following, lead the people to believe - because all of you

clearly did - that there was going to be a transmission line -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: - when you do not have the intestinal fortitude to stand

today and say no, because it is not going to happen?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member to take his seat.

MR. E. BYRNE: They have told you so and we have brought it out to the

floor of this Assembly. Why?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: Why, Mr. Speaker, did this government not (inaudible)?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member to take his seat.

The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The only thing I can conclude -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MR. GRIMES: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

The only thing I can conclude then is that the position of the Official

Opposition in Newfoundland and Labrador is that if they had been negotiating, or

from Labrador to the Island as part of this overall development, first and

foremost I have heard, from what I have listened to today, that they would not

Because he is suggesting there is a policy around since 1995 of the Government

of Canada that they said they are not going to do it, so don't bother to ask.

That is one thing I can conclude.

Secondly, I will conclude that because one of the components that was there

possibility to have some greenhouse gas emission credits, because that was not

going to be available in the short-term they would have given up immediately and

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister now to conclude his answer.

MR. GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, we decided that we would ask, we decided that we

would suggest that greenhouse credits were a possibility, along with several

asking, and we are going to continue to ask unless and until we get a definite

believe it is in the best interest of the Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. TULK: Point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

On a point of order, the hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: I have no objections, as you will know, to people (inaudible)

across this House, sit and make certain statements about ministers when they are

standing. I distinctly heard on at least four occasions the Member for

Conception Bay South - you uttered a word that what the minister was saying was

a lie. I would ask the Speaker to ask him to withdraw it. I ask him to withdraw

it.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair did not hear what the members were shouting across the House, but I'm

sure if the member has said something that is unparliamentary, I am sure that

the hon. member will withdraw that comment.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.

MR. FRENCH: Mr. Speaker, I don't know if the Government House Leader

has a problem with his hearing, but I did not say that somebody lied. I did not

say that. I asked a question.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today are to the Minister of Health and Community Services.

A number of hospital boards in the Province received permission from your

department to engage in training medical laboratory technologists to do basic

diagnostic x-ray procedures. This training program is considerably less than for

a trained radiation technologist. There is a correspondent aspect to this course

and a clinical aspect. The clinical aspect for a cross-trained technician is

nine months less than for a fully trained radiation technologist.

I want to ask the minister: Is he fully satisfied that all safety concerns

have been appropriately addressed with reference to cross-trained lab

technologists doing radiation technology?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MR. GRIMES: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Minister of Labour receives advice from an advisory committee on

radiation health and safety. I have a copy of a letter that the Minister of

Labour wrote to the Minister of Health, and he approved this training program

based on six specific recommendations from his advisory committee. Minister,

there are six specific recommendations from the panel of experts to ensure the

public safety has been met.

I want to say, minister, are you aware that the Minister of Labour, almost a

year after that date, wrote the Newfoundland Association of Medical Radiation

Technologists, their ad hoc committee on cross-training, and he advised in this

letter -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member now to get to his question.

MR. SULLIVAN: Mr. Speaker, I am asking him is he aware of this. I just

want a yes or no. I'm in the process of the question.

Is he aware that the Minister of Labour wrote the ad hoc committee on

cross-training advising them that he has experienced concerns with compliance

with certain conditions in that minister's advisory committee on radiation

health and safety that was felt necessary to protect the public health and

safety?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MR. GRIMES: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. SULLIVAN: Mr. Speaker, I ask the minister: Is he aware that

recommendations (inaudible) - one of those six recommendations - that trained

technologists only could fill positions left vacant by combined lab/X-ray

technicians, and that is not being met, I say to the minister? Is he aware that

another recommendation requires graduates of this course to undergo additional

training and receive CAMRT standards that would require up to fifty weeks of

clinical training? Will the minister tell us if even one person in the last two

years has even commenced that training that is considered to protect the public

health and safety?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is a very serious issue that has been under discussion between the two

departments of the government that are involved: Employment and Labour Relations

primarily focusing upon the safety aspects that you mentioned, and the

Department of Health and Community Services focusing primarily upon making sure

that we have trained medical personnel available in all parts of Newfoundland

and Labrador, particularly in our more rural parts of Newfoundland and Labrador.

It was clear that there were some incidents of non-compliance, as was pointed

out by the other department. In every case that was always brought to the

attention of the appropriate health care board so that they could check and make

sure that the people were being trained appropriately and that there was no risk

being taken for the safety of the trainees or to the safety of any patients who

would go to these trained employees afterwards.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Opposition House Leader, one quick supplementary.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Is the minister aware that the expert committee advisory to the Minister of

Labour that advised on health and safety - is he aware that not one of the lab

technologists that were crossed-trained have written the national examination

that is a prerequisite to be specialized in administering radiation that can

have very deleterious effects on human health in the long term?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MR. GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, we have been satisfied, through repeated and

regular contract with the boards. As a matter of fact the hon. member, as the

health critic - and I know he takes his job very seriously - would be interested

in knowing that in my visitation throughout the Province shortly after becoming

the Minister of Health and Community Services, that this was one of the issues

brought to my attention by CEOs and board chairs in each of the regions, to

suggest that they had concerns about safety but they also had concerns about the

availability of staff.

I am sure that the hon. member would acknowledge that there is a debate

actually going on in the country as to whether or not the separate training

needs to actually happen, or whether the cross-trained specialists that we have

had in Newfoundland and Labrador for thirty to forty years now are more

appropriate in rural settings than individually, singularly trained individuals

for each function. It is a matter that there are different standards in play in

different parts of the country. It is one that is a current matter in the

Province -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister now to conclude his answer.

MR. GRIMES: - but we would not compromise the safety of anybody with

respect to this issue.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair recognizes the hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is for the Minister of Health and Community Services. The

minister has talked about summer closures for hospital beds in this Province. In

1998, 12 per cent of hospital beds closed. In 1999, there were 20 per cent

closed. This summer, the minister projects upwards of 25 per cent of the

hospital beds closing in the Province.

Given the fact that this government has taken some measures, allegedly, to

increase staffing, particularly with nurses, why is it that we have fewer and

fewer beds available for hospital needs in this Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

If I might give this answer and the hon. member - I know the member who asked

the question would like to hear the answer. I don't know about anybody else.

The real answer is this: Last year, we would all remember, just around this time

- a month or so before this - we had a labour disruption in the Province

involving nurses. Members on that side of the House stood up, every single one

of them, and talked about the need for more full-time nurses, more physicians

and more professional staff. What we did was put them in place.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. GRIMES: We did convert over 400 positions from casual positions -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. GRIMES: Thank you for leading into my answer.

They all were working full-time hours, Mr. Speaker, and they had no benefits

such as holiday entitlement. This year that extra 400, plus the 125 that we

hired, plus the new physicians that are here - some sixty of them - all have an

entitlement to vacation and holidays which they said last year they should get.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. GRIMES: They said we should have more of them and they should get

their holidays. We have more of them. To get their holidays, we have to close

some of the beds for the vacation period.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The time for Oral Questions has elapsed.

Notices of Motion

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled,

"An Act To Amend The Income Tax Act." (Bill 22).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Before I call the next item under Routine Proceedings, I would like to

welcome to the House of Assembly today a delegation from the Town of Comfort

Cove-Newstead: Julie Eveleigh, the Mayor of that community; Wylie Head, Deputy

Mayor; Junior Eveleigh, council member; and Gerald Head, council member.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Orders of the Day

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: Where are the questions on the Order Paper?

AN HON. MEMBER: We had 2,000 on the Order Paper.

MR. E. BYRNE: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: On a point or order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, if the Government House Leader wants to make a

little show for the press, let him tell them the whole story. In one session of

the House, over 110 questions on the Order Paper and not one answered by the

government.

If he wants some questions, start answering the ones in Question Period first

and you might get some more.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order.

The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: On a new point of order, Mr. Speaker, let me say to the hon.

gentleman that I recall some questions being answered here by ministers on this

side, but I can take him back a little further than that, and that is to when

his -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: That is what he started to give us, a history lesson, so I will

give him one.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, let me say to the hon. gentleman -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: I am on a point of order.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair has ruled that the point raised by the hon. member was not a valid

point of order. Is the Government House Leader raising a new point of order?

MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker..

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader, on a point of order.

MR. TULK: That is what I asked to have raised, a new point of order.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Let me say to the hon. gentleman, Mr. Speaker, that I can

recall all of the questions that were put on the Order Paper in this House, some

attention being paid to them by this side to be answered.

Let me take him back a little further and say that when his political cousins

AN HON. MEMBER: His brothers.

MR. TULK: - brothers in this case, his political brothers, some of them

now living far away, when there were some 2,000 questions put on the Order Paper

when we were in Opposition, and not one single one was answered.

AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. TULK: No wonder the Member for Lewisporte is grinning. He knows

exactly what I am talking about.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order.

The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, let me say to the Member for Lewisporte that there

was no point in asking him any questions, so he got none.

Order 4, "An Act To Amend The Fishing Industry Collective Bargaining

Act." (Bill 5)

MR. SPEAKER: Order 4.

Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Fishing Industry

Collective Bargaining Act."

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Labour.

MR. LANGDON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

This act that we have in front of us today,

An Act To Amend The Fishing

Industry Collective Bargaining Act, was really putting into legislation a

process that we brought in place over the last two years as a part of a pilot

project to bring stability to negotiations and working arrangements in the

fishing industry in Newfoundland and Labrador.

There is no doubt about it, that this particular arrangement that we have

negotiated between the unions, the FFAW, FANL, and the independent fishing

industries, has been a success. In fact, I can say that this particular piece of

legislation is not only unique to the Province but it is also unique to the

country here.

When the proponents of this particular piece of work did their work, they

visited jurisdictions across the country. They also went to Iceland, and did

work also in conjunction with their stakeholders in this particular situation,

the unions, FFAW and FANL. I can say today that we have been in consultations

with the stakeholder group and we have full support of the industry and the

union in this particular piece of legislation.

This legislation does, in a sense, take in effect for two years. If, after

two years, the parties are not happy with this particular arrangement, it does

give them an out and then be able to negotiate a new agreement with a new group

in the industry or with another elective bargaining unit, should that be the

case.

This process is unique, as I said. It has brought stability. It is only, in a

sense, legislating what we have already had as a pilot agreement between the

stakeholders in this particular Province.

I am very pleased today to introduce this piece of legislation during second

reading. I am confident this will add permanent stability to the fishing

industry in this Province.

MR. SPEAKER (Smith): Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I stand today to say a few words on this piece of legislation. It is no

surprise. It is not something we haven't seen in this House before. It was

done on a trial basis, I understand, in looking at the minister as he nods his

head in approval. It was done on a six-month basis, if I recall, and I think it

was brought back into the House again to be extended for a further six months,

and now we are looking at putting it into effect for a two year period.

This is a good piece of legislation, which shows what can happen when we get

a dialogue between the provincial fisheries and aquaculture, when we get a

dialogue with the union and the stakeholders. This is the kind of legislation

that we can see brought here, which is not controversial. It is something that

is good for the industry, and it is good for the people who take

part in that

particular industry.

We can all think back just a short while ago, a couple of years ago. Every

year before the crab fishery would start - this is why this piece of legislation

has been brought forward. It started out with the shellfish industry and now it

has been extended to include the framework. The blueprint is being allowed to

continue to be put in place for other fishing as well.

We can recall when there would be some dissatisfaction with the price offered

by the processors, where we would see boats tied up at the wharf for sometimes a

month or two months waiting for a price settlement before people would go

fishing.

You must realize that if we had boats tied up at the wharf, then the

processors of this Province weren't meeting the market demand that was out

there. When you go and make a commitment to a market, it is incumbent on the

stakeholders to be able to provide that market with a product that they can take

to the supermarket shelves and supply their clientele, supply the consumers of

the world, in a timely way so they can plan their business and have their

business move along in an orderly fashion. This is why this is a good piece of

legislation.

The other part of it I would like to expand on, and it is probably something

that can be tied in with this, if we are going to bring about legislation for a

price settlement, I think we should also bring about or have some form of

understanding where we are going to share information about the whole industry.

We can all think back to what happened just a few short months ago. I am not

convinced that the minister didn't know long beforehand the problem with crab

recruitment around the shores of this Province. I am not convinced that the man

who prides himself for having a pulse on the fishery of Newfoundland and

Labrador was caught by surprise when he heard the results of a trial survey that

was done last November, and just two weeks prior to the opening of the crab

season the shocker was delivered, the bad news, that maybe we may have a problem

with shellfish in this Province, we may have a problem with crab recruitment

around the shores of this Province.

When the concern was raised - I remember where I first heard it. It was in

the stadium in Bonavista, I say to the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture,

where there was a hockey tournament. A processor was there at the time and we

had a little chat. He said: Have you heard the rumor? I said: No. In fact, I

said: Look, don't pay any attention to rumors. Because I can assure you it was

in the back of my mind that if it was true, this minister would be on his feet

telling people that we have a problem. We have to slow down. We have a problem

with recruitment. I am concerned about it. Hold back the industry. We are not

going to start fishing as of the first of April, until we find out what is

happening. We have a real problem.

Instead, it was allowed to fester. The Department of Fisheries and Oceans

came out and said: Don't be alarmed. This is only a small piece in a big

puzzle. There are a lot of other surveys. We have to talk to fishermen. We have

to look at the results from other experiments that have been carried out. It is

only a small piece in a big puzzle.

I remember an interview. The Minster of Fisheries and Aquaculture was at the

trade show down in Boston, and I remember the interview. The Minister of

Fisheries and Aquaculture was on the radio, saying: What are you fellows trying

to do to me up there? You are trying to hijack me. Here I am, down here in

Boston, trying to line up markets, this great seafood show right here in the

heart of the biggest consumer of shellfish in the world, and you people are out

there throwing out those fears that we may have a problem within the shellfish

industry in this Province. What are you doing to me? You don't know what you

are talking about. Stay quiet until you hear all of the information. It is not

true.

I said: Well, that kind of confirms what I was thinking. I was glad that I

heard the minister. I was glad when I heard him talk about not allowing this to

happen, because the minister knows. I had some faith in the minister. I figured

the minister knew what he was talking about. I said: Well, that is great. I am

glad that I kind of put the fear to rest in the processor that I was talking

with in the stadium in Bonavista, because it is not true.

Then I had another call. I said: No, look, don't push the panic button. The

minister knows what he is saying. I heard him on the radio interview direct from

Boston. He is saying: Don't put those fears in people. You are trying to

hijack me again down here. I am putting together markets. Where last year the

industry was worth $1 billion, we are going to have a great market this year for

snow crab; because as he always said, as he said this last six months: Now is

our chance to be a showcase to the world because the Alaskan crab industry is

failing and now is our chance to reach forward and control 40 per cent of the

marketplace. Never once was there any fear that we had troubles with the

recruitment of snow crab in this Province.

I heard the minister talk about how the survey that was done was wrong, and I

agreed with that. I agree that if we are going to go and look at carrying

forward experiments, and look at carrying forward scientific ways of doing

things, then we should do it in the traditional way. If we are going to find out

what crab is on the ocean floor, then we should carry out the experiment in the

way that fishermen fish crab, which is set pots, have a smaller mesh in the pots

so if the small crab would crawl in then the small crab would be there. It would

be a good way to find out exactly what the recruitment levels were for this

particular species.

This was a trawl survey carried out by the scientists. It was conducted back

in November. So here we are. Six months ago this particular trawl survey was

carried out. We are living in a modern world where it is not hard to put

information together and transfer information from one point to another, whether

it be ship, airplane or whatever to an onshore base, and we are looking at six

months from a trawl survey that was conducted until we found out the results of

that particular survey and relayed it to the fishermen. So, the government

cannot have it both ways. You cannot say on the one hand that we are doing the

right thing here by having a settlement in price if you are not going to share

information with the stakeholders within the industry.

Then I refer back to what the minister talked about, the way that he would

carry out his survey in potting crab and the way that the crab survey should be

carried out, only to find that the minister did not know a lot of what he was

talking about there as well.

MR. EFFORD: Why?

MR. FITZGERALD: Because the small crab that we are talking about, Mr.

Speaker, with the concern we expressed for recruitment levels, are too small to

even pot.

MR. EFFORD: That is not right.

MR. FITZGERALD: It is correct, I say to the minister. The thing that

matters here most of all is the lack of scientific information and I have never

heard this minister once -

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Small crab will not mesh, I say to the minister. That is

the information that is provided to me. You can put all the small pots you want

in a fleet and the small mesh and they tell me that the small crab will not pot.

MR. EFFORD: That is not correct.

MR. FITZGERALD: You had better talk to the scientists, I say to the

minister, because that is where I got it from. I am not a scientist. I do not

know what your knowledge is of scientific information.

Getting back to science, Mr. Speaker, the shame of it is the amount of

science that has been carried out. Here we have a fishing industry worth $1

billion last year in export value. Fishery Products International, one of the

best employers and probably one of the biggest employers in Newfoundland and

Labrador, had $700 million last year in sales. Yet we are going and we are

cutting back the science information with the all the problems, the challenges

and the heartache that has happened within this industry since 1992 and prior to

that. Because that all goes back to science as well. It goes all the way back to

there. Here we are cutting back science, and we know no more of what happened to

the groundfishery today than we did back in 1992 when the bottom fell out of

her, I say to the minister. We know no more about it.

Last year there was something like $25,000 spent in discretionary spending on

shellfish science. The minister shakes his head, going through this theatrics

over there, but he knows what I am saying is true. Last year, for an industry

that was worth in excess of $1 billion, an export value in this Province, the

amount of scientific knowledge that we have brought forward to us is next to

nil. What do we do? We go and cut back the amount of science information that

has been put forward and the effort that is put forward to the point where last

year, excluding the cost of the rental on the boat, excluding the cost of

salaries and that sort of thing and maintaining, there was $25,000, I say to the

minister, spent in discretionary spending in science in the crab fish industry

in this Province. That is shameful.

I do not know what effort the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture is

putting into this -

AN HON. MEMBER: John!

MR. FITZGERALD: I do not know what effort John is putting into it, but I

do know that it is something the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs should be

taking up the gauntlet on. Because if there was ever a disappointment in this

House, Mr. Speaker - in fact I would say there were two disappointments. If I

was to name two major disappointments that have happened in this Legislature

within the past six months I could name them very quickly.

AN HON. MEMBER: What are they?

MR. FITZGERALD: One is the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs.

Everybody thought that once we had a full-time Minister of Intergovernmental

Affairs that we would have a direct line to Ottawa and all the problems and all

the heartache and all the grief that has been spread on this Province by old man

Ottawa would be looked after.

AN HON. MEMBER: What has he done?

MR. FITZGERALD: What has he done? Nothing!

The second biggest disappointment - and I say this at the risk of getting

something thrown at me - is the fourth place allotment of the Leader of the New

Democratic Party in Question Period. Everybody was waiting for him, and he made

such a noise that he wanted to have the fourth place allotment because all the

issues were not getting out there. The Tories weren't touching on the issues

of the day. He wanted his place in Question Period.

MR. TULK: Roger, I am going to tell you something. It is not very often

that I agree with you. (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: He wanted his place in Question Period and the Speaker -

and I am not questioning the Speaker's wisdom. The Speaker came back, and I

thought our House Leader had put forward a workable solution.

MR. TULK: Listen (inaudible) and I must say that I think you are right,

but I pushed the Opposition House Leader to try to do something for the Member

for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi. I will tell you something. (Inaudible) -

MR. FITZGERALD: Hurry up. If you have something to say, say it.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: It was disappointing. I will tell you, it is not

disappointing to me because we knew -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: The media was playing up to the Leader of the New

Democratic Party and was saying that the Leader of the New Democratic Party

should have a place here. He should have a place in Question Period. I haven't

seen him -

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, a big disappointment to us over here because we

expected to get some guidance on how to have a leadoff question the next day. We

expected the media to have a scrum with the Leader of the Opposition on a

regular basis. I haven't seen him on television, except for cutting around by

somebody who was having an interview, since he was allowed fourth place in

Question Period. So those were two major disappointments, but I am digressing.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: No, that was a fluke.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: Listen, don't start me again.

MR. FITZGERALD: Two big disappointments.

MR. E. BYRNE: I just happened to be in a certain place at a certain time.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible) twenty years. First of all, Eddie Byrne got up and

spent a full hour talking about how (inaudible) joined the Liberal Party

(inaudible). Then he got up and made a (inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: I heard.

MR. SULLIVAN: Who said that?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. FITZGERALD: That was a testament that was delivered in your absence.

Mr. Speaker, I say this to the Government House Leader. When I talked today

about when the minister was getting up and delivering certain packages and

releasing so much today and so much another time, I said that the wheels were

coming off her over there. The wheels may not be coming off her but there are

some severe leaks, I say to the Government House Leader. This last, I would say,

six days that I have had a copy of five Hansards delivered to me, five Hansards

that show me the difference in attitude and the difference of opinion from what

the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture had when he got up here in 1985 and

1986 when he would introduce private members' resolutions here and when he

took

part in debate, compared to his attitude and the information that he brings

forward to this House today. What a difference a day makes.

When you see the Minister of Health get up and talk about how words are

important, well, I don't have the Hansards with me here right now but I do

have them up in my office. There are some pretty interesting information there.

The Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture, for one thing, introduced a private

member's resolution where he talked about the Fisheries Loan Board, how all of

a sudden the bad PC government had allowed the Fisheries Loan Board to be

controlled by the banks. He talked about how bad that was and how it hurt the

fishermen. Lo and behold, he becomes the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture

and not only does he allow the Fisheries Loan Board to be controlled by the

banks, but he gets rid of it altogether and gives it to another separate

department, completely out of his control, I say to him.

Those are the kind of things that are not being done for this particular

industry. While the minister stands here and talks about how he is a great

saviour and all the wonderful things that have happened, just think back to

Question Period yesterday when the champion of the people got up and turned his

back on the sealing industry in this Province, turned his back on an

organization that has done so much to shepherd the sealing industry from where

it was back in the late 1970s to 1980s to where it is today. The minister turns

his back on them and says: You are on your own; find your own funding or you can

disappear.

I say to the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture that this organization,

this industry, has given you a platform to travel around this Province on, and

given you a soap box this last four years. Now it is about time that you showed

some support to the sealing industry. It is about time that you reached back and

showed some support to them since they have provided you with your platform and

your soapbox to go around the Island.

Everywhere he went it was the sealing industry, how important it was, how we

need to go out and there is nobody standing up. He would be saying: It is only

me, me, it is all about me. I can guarantee you that as fast as they stood up,

that minister would shoot them down, pick them off one by one, because he didn't

want anybody - and I say to people in the galleries - to be there to help them.

He didn't want anybody to take any of the limelight. It was the only thing he

knew, to go out and take somebody on and say: Look, I am the only one, there is

nobody helping me. Where were you, and where were you and you? I know where I

was.

Only yesterday or a couple of days ago he said to me: Where were you? I told

him where I was. I was putting on a pair of rubber boots to go to work in a fish

plant. That is where I was when he was down jumping around from ship to ship

trying to be the chairperson of the United Fisherpersons association, where

people now are looking for it, wondering what happened to their money. That is

what happens there.

The minister speaks about a slipway. That is another thing that is wrong, I

say to the minister. Why should we in this House of Assembly have to literally

beg a minister in order to get a paltry $3,000 for some organization, some

fisheries committee, to repair the slipway?

MR. EFFORD: If you are going to stand here in the House of Assembly and

lambast me for half an hour then I am going to write (inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: No, you don't have to take it. No, you don't have to

write - it is not your cheque, I say to the minister. You have to remember one

thing. You might have thought it was your check the other day when you went to

Bonaventure, but I will tell you it is not your money. That is as much my money

and as much of that man's money as it is yours. You have been entrusted with

that money and I say shame on you for taking the political and partisan attitude

towards it.

Mr. Speaker, a few years - in fact, it is still continuing today I think -

the Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture went out and looked at the

infrastructure that they had around the Province. The committee was encouraged

by the Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture to go around, look at, and

encourage fishermen's committees to take back infrastructure. I think of

wharves, I think of slipways, I think of sheds, ice, and all that kind of thing

around the wharves. They were encouraged to take it back because the Department

of Fisheries and Aquaculture wanted to divest itself of it. I can't blame them

for that. It was a situation where the local people knew what was needed. They

knew what repairs needed to be done to their slipway and to their wharf.

You might say: I don't know what you are doing talking about slipways and

wharves if there is no big amount of fishing activity going on today. There is.

When I talked about a $1 billion export value, all that is not landed in St.

Anthony or Bonavista. A lot of it is landed in small communities. People here,

the Members for Twillingate & Fogo and Fortune Bay-Cape la Hune, know very

well what I am talking about. A lot of this product is still landed in small

communities.

Some of those small communities exist because of a few fishermen keeping a

little bit of economic activity going there. The least we can do, if we cannot

go out and maintain that infrastructure that we passed back to the fishermen's

committees, with the instructions or with the full knowledge of this government,

is to say: We will continue to support you, and we will continue to make

available a sum of money - and it was normally approximately $3,000 a year - in

order for you to maintain the infrastructure. Now, $3,000 a year is not a lot of

money but I can tell you, with free labour for the most part, if it was done

right and if it was done proper and if it was taken out of the hands of the

Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture and put in some responsible hands, that a

lot of people would be able to maintain that infrastructure and have it there to

serve them to carry out their everyday activities.

AN HON. MEMBER: That program is (inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: What is that?

AN HON. MEMBER: That program is (inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: It is a good program. It is just that it is in the wrong

hands, I say to the member. I would venture to say that I represent probably one

of the biggest fishing districts on this Island. The Member for Baie Verte nods

his head. Yes, yours as well is a big fishing district. Last year there was

something like $350,000 in that particular pot of money for special grants. Do

you know how much I got last year? Not how much I got. It was not my money. Do

you know how much the fishermen in Bonavista South got last year? Thirty-five

communities. Out of those thirty-five communities I bet you I have thirty-two

wharves, I bet you I have thirty-three slipways. Do you know how much money the

fisherpeople in Bonavista South got last year? A measly $3,000, and I had to go

and beg. I do not know how many phone calls or how much time I consumed in

trying to get $3,000 from the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture. Now, that

is shameful.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: You probably did. That is shameful, I say to members

opposite, because what people have to remember, and what you people have to

remember over there, is that the Ministers of Fisheries and Aquaculture, Health

and Community Services, and Finance are not the ministers for the Liberal

government. He is not the minister for St. John's North or Port de Grave. He

is the minister of Newfoundland and Labrador. The President of Treasury Board is

not the minister for Grand Falls-Buchans. She is the President of Treasury Board

for Newfoundland and Labrador. The people in this Province should be served well

by those ministers -

MR. MATTHEWS: They are.

MR. FITZGERALD: - and we should not have - they are not. You are right, I

say to the Minster of Finance, they are not. You are one of the few who would

probably reach out and help everybody if the need was there.

The Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture - I am going to repeat it in case

you did not hear it - when I talked about the $350,000 that is in your budget

for special grants -

MR. EFFORD: The one that you are not (inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: It is not me, I say to the minister, it has nothing to do

with me. It is like this seat here. This seat is not mine. This seat belongs to

the people in Bonavista South and I am only occupying it. When I come looking

for money, whether it be for road work, or for slipways, or for wharves, it is

not for me. It has nothing to do with me. I do not have a boat. I am not a

fisherman.

AN HON. MEMBER: Tom Rideout never put much in Twillingate & Fogo when

he was (inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: You fellows will have to talk to Tom Rideout about that.

It has nothing to do with me. I can tell you something, that if I was there in

that chair I would treat everybody the same way, and I would treat people in

Bonavista South, Port de Grave or Bellevue the way they should be treated. That

is the way things should be done.

One of the biggest fishing districts in Newfoundland and Labrador, Bonavista

South, thirty-five communities, one of the biggest fishing communities. Out of

the $350,000 that the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture had at his disposal,

a little slush fund, I got a paltry - not me, I am referring to it wrong again -

the people in Bonavista South got a paltry $3,000. I had to beg, I had to go

knocking on people's doors, I had to raise it in a public forum with the

minister. I had it here in the Estimates meeting with the minister, to say to

him: Minister, yes, it is a good fund, but let's start distributing wisely. If

we are going to go out on one hand and encourage fishermen and fishermen's

committees to take over the infrastructure and make the commitment that the

funding is going to be there to improve the slipway and improve the little shed,

then let's live up to our commitment.

I am not going to get into any of the foolish promises that the minister made

in the by-election; that is up to him. I am not even going to touch that. I am

not even going to touch the promises that the minister made in Trinity North. I

hope he lives up to them. The people in Trinity North deserve a wharf, deserve a

slipway, and deserve to have their fishing infrastructure looked after just as

the people in my district. If the need is there, it should be responded to.

Mr. Speaker, there is nothing wrong with this special account, nothing wrong

with it whatsoever, as long as it is carried out right and correctly. The

minister should take it out of his own office. I should not have to go and beg

to the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture for a paltry $3,000. If the

minister has no more to do than worry about dishing out a few paltry dollars

underneath the table, or to keep somebody begging to him, then I question the

need for the minister.

It was almost like the Minister of Forestry and Agrifoods a few years ago. I

had to bring it up in the House where they brought in rules and regulations

that, if you are going to pull your wood out of the woods at a certain time of

the year, you had two months. If you didn't get it out in that two months, you

had to go to the minister to get special permission. How silly, boys, come on.

AN HON. MEMBER: No.

MR. FITZGERALD: What do you mean, no? Not no, yes. Yes, that is the way

it was.

It was also that silly that if you were going in to pull out your wood, you

couldn't even have somebody else on the ski-doo with you. This is the kind of

silliness, and it came from the first minister that was sitting in that seat

where the Member for Bellevue is sitting now. It came from him, from the former

Premier, who said he was going to do away with government red tape. He was going

to have one-stop shopping. Do you remember that?

The Government House Leader, I have to say, while he wasn't very happy when

he sat in the back benches, he has been one of the few bright lights in the

front benches here. I have to say that in all sincerity.

MR. EFFORD: Why would you say that?

MR. FITZGERALD: I say it because he makes himself available to not only

his own constituents but to other people around this Province. I have to say it

because I have had dealings with the minister and had delegations come in and

sit and talk with him, and he allowed them the time they wanted. It had nothing

to do with me. It had all to do with Newfoundlanders and Labradorians who were

there, trying to help themselves.

The sadness is, and I suppose the fear is, I say to the Member for Baie Verte

- a lot of things can happen. Can you imagine the state we would be in, can you

imagine the mess that we would be in, can you imagine where we would go, if, God

forgive us, the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture ever gets to occupy the

prime seat, the number one seat, that the Member for Bellevue is occupying now.

What kind of a mess would we be in, with that kind of an attitude? That can't

be allowed to happen. We are operating in a democracy. We are supposed to be in

a democratic county.

Members opposite went out knocking on doors during the by-election and talked

about how you have to get on the side of government. If you are going to get

anything, you have to get on the side of government. What a demented way of

thinking, that you have to get on the side of government in order to get

anything.

Do you know what I said? The doors that the minister was at, when I went back

and heard that, do you know what I said? If you believe in that bull, you

believe in Communism.

MR. BARRETT: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Bellevue, on a point of order.

MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, I want to remind the hon. Member for Bonavista

South, and take him back in history a little bit, that in a by-election in

Bellevue district, actually, the former, former, former Premier of this Province

circulated a letter in Bellevue district warning the people in Bellevue district

that if they did not vote for Bas Jamieson, at the time, that they would not get

a cent of government money. That was his brothers and sisters in the Tory Party

that threatened the people of Bellevue district.

There was no threat in Trinity North, to the people in Trinity North. What we

did say was that if you are on the government side you had complete access to

the ministers; but Brian Peckford sent a personal letter to every voter in

Bellevue district, threatening them, that if they did not vote for Bas Jamieson

they would not get a cent of money from the government.

Actually, what happened in Bellevue district in seventeen years - and I have

the figures - $48,000 was the total spent on water and sewer in Bellevue

district in seventeen years.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. BARRETT: I am on a point of order, yes, because you have to tell the

whole story from Bonavista South.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order, but obviously it is a good opportunity for the -

The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, I can't relate to those things, I say.

That is why you are probably surprised to hear me say some of the things that I

am saying. You might say: How green is the Member for Bonavista South, to think

that he can come and have access to government members and to government

ministers? That is my way of thinking. I think that is the way that it should

be. All the things that you are talking about are probably true. I am not going

to argue against any of that; but, if it is true or if it is not true, the

question I ask is: Is it right?

AN HON. MEMBER: No, it's not right.

MR. FITZGERALD: Then you had better tell some of your colleagues in the

front benches of the government that you support today that it is not right,

because I agree it is not right. I would never want to be part of something like

that happening. You go out, and when you knock on doors you go to support

yourself. You talk about people having -

MR. TULK: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

On a point of order, the hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I just want to try, if I could, to ask the hon.

gentleman for Bonavista South to declare his true allegiance once and for all,

if he is a member of the PC Party - I am not sure; nobody is sure where they are

those days, whether they are PC or Alliance or what they are - or whether he is

part of the disintegrating PC Party.

I have to say to him that the fellow who brought them down their recent

policy statement on what should happen to the transmission line from Labrador to

Newfoundland, the former Premier of this Province, the hon. Brian Peckford - the

fellow who brought that down to them at their convention - was a person who got

in Terra Nova district when a very good friend of the hon. gentleman from

Musgravetown, Mr. Glen Greening, was elected the Member for Terra Nova in a

by-election and stood in Musgravetown, Port Blandford, and areas like that, and

said: This will be the forty-second member that we will have elected, if this

member is elected, and he will get one forty-second of the budget. In other

words, there is nothing for the Opposition so don't even bother voting for the

Opposition.

I want to ask the hon. gentleman: Does he really - I want him to clarify it

for us - support the disintegrating PC Party in Canada and, I suspect, in

Newfoundland? Does he stick to that issue or is he one of those nilly-willy's

that is all over the place, doesn't know where he stands and doesn't know

what he stands for, but just stands up and says what is opportune at the time? I

would ask him to tell us who he is and what he is about.

MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order.

The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, I don't have this great ideology about any

party, I say to -

MR. TULK: I don't think you have any ideology about anything.

MR. FITZGERALD: I don't have any great ideology about any of that

stuff. I suppose if I had a choice to have some input on how government should

be structured -

MR. TULK: I heard you would like to be a Liberal.

MR. FITZGERALD: You heard wrong there.

If I had some input into how a government should be structured, I would look

at the blueprint that - listen to me now - I would look at the blueprint that

the new Territory used, Nunavut. An excellent way to form a government. You go

out and you run. You offer yourself as a candidate. The people come forward and

they have an opportunity to vote for a person, a candidate, that they want to

represent them.

MR. TULK: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

On a point of order, the hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Maybe I could encourage the hon. gentleman to do exactly what

so many of his other PC friends are doing, leave the party and form a new

political movement in the Province. If he feels so strong and principled about

not being a part of any party, maybe he would like to get out and put together

his own political movement which says that we will be all one and the same.

MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order.

The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: In the territory of Nunavut they campaign, and the people

elect a candidate, and there are no parties. They together elect the premier and

they take the wishes of the people who elected them.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible)!

MR. FITZGERALD: I say to the Government House Leader, and I have to go

back to him, because he stands here today as a proud Liberal. I can only think

back over the short time I have been in this House, seven years, and I think

about the first three years that that great Liberal there wasn't in tune with

the great Liberalism that was happening within those confines and on that side

of the House.

I remember the Government House Leader would have revolted at that time. In

fact, the Government House Leader tried to lead it by getting people over here

to come on side with him and start a revolt.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible)!.

MR. FITZGERALD: Oh, yes. The member knows exactly what I am saying. The

Government House Leader, Mr. Speaker, would make many trips across here and echo

- that is when he would show up in the House. I will tell you, the Government

House Leader -

MR. TULK: (Inaudible) you don't have one principle (inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: The Government House Leader would make many trips over

here and try to start a movement to get back at the premier of the day, and I

don't blame him.

MR. TULK: That is not true. (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: We may be politicians -

MR. TULK: (Inaudible) my own party.

MR. FITZGERALD: No, you are a man of principle.

MR. TULK: I fought my own battles in my own party.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: He did. Against you. I know that.

AN HON. MEMBER: I led the charge.

MR. FITZGERALD: What do you mean, to put him there or get him out of it?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) say goodbye.

MR. FITZGERALD: I don't know about that. There are things that have

happened behind the back benches that I knew nothing about.

MR. TULK: Not true. (Inaudible) my own party.

MR. FITZGERALD: Some of them were wide open. Some of the anger and some

of the aggravation and some of the displeasure was carried out into the public

as things would happen in this House. Things were carried over to parties right

here in this building, little Christmas get-togethers.

The Government House Leader would come here when he would show up and he

would sit back in the back benches. He wouldn't even be able to look - I don't

know where he was looking. He couldn't look at anybody over there because he

had no friends. He couldn't look over here because he hated everybody over

here. He would come in, and he had one cheek of his rear end on the chair, and

the other cheek off and looking up, mad at everybody.

MR. NOEL : As long as he wasn't mad at me.

MR. FITZGERALD: No, he wasn't mad at you at the time. I just referred

to you as a great disappointment, in your absence.

MR. NOEL: What?

MR. FITZGERALD: I just referred to you as a great disappointment, in your

absence. I will have to repeat it for you. The Member for Virginia Waters, I don't

know where he ever got the nickname as a maverick politician?

AN HON. MEMBER: Who?

MR. FITZGERALD: The Member for Virginia Waters. Because he came here -

only it lasted longer than you, I say to the Government House Leader. Your

talent got recognized long before his, and so it should have.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible) mad at everybody?

MR. FITZGERALD: You were. You were mad at everybody, you were mad at

yourself.

AN HON. MEMBER: Mad at the world.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mad at the world.

MR. TULK: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

On a point, the hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: I have to say to the hon. gentleman that that is not true. For

example, one of my best friends here was carrying a resolution around in his

pocket about me for a number of days. I fought what I fought on principle, not

on personalities. I think the world of the Minister of Fisheries, the Minister

of Finance. I think the world of them. I am not mad at anybody, but I just did

what I thought I had to do. Unlike the hon. gentleman who I don't believe

would fight anybody unless it is somebody across the way (inaudible). I don't

think you have the gumption, Roger.

MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order.

The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, there is no point of order.

I don't blame the hon. Government House Leader for feeling the way he did.

He toed the line of the Liberal Party. He was there in the good times and he was

there in the bad times. I don't blame him for being mad at the Premier today.

I would be mad as well. I think if I was one of the foot soldiers of the Liberal

Party, and if I had done and came through and took my knocks and bruises along

the way, then I think I would like to be looked after. I would like to have

something there that would show what my history had been for the party.

Especially if I had the ability to sit in the front benches.

The member wasn't treated right. Furthermore, we are all normal here. The

forty-eight people who sit in this House, while we badger back and forth and we

throw insults at each other, for the most

part it is only done in this House. It

is only done in the forum where we sit for the one hundred or so days a year.

Once we go outside, once you are in company of other people - far greater people

than ourselves, I say to people opposite - then there is always some courtesy. I

have never seen it any other way. I have to say that to members opposite and I

say it to everybody, I think, that I have ever appeared before or appeared with

outside the forum where we sit today.

There are only forty-eight of us in Newfoundland and Labrador and while we do

those things we are all very normal people as well. Some of us, I guess, have

bigger egos than other people, but it is a sudden touch of reality come election

time when you have to go back to the people who elected you. I don't blame

this Liberal, Tory, NDP thing, political thing, during election time. Whatever

is on the go, whatever you can do when the writ is served that you feel will

help you, within your own conscience, if you feel that it is right to do or it

will help you or your friends, then you do it.

I have the philosophy, and I operate on the premise, that once the election

is over then put it all away. Don't go out and because you are perceived as a

Liberal then I am not going to help you, or if you are perceived as a Tory then

I am not going to help you. If anybody from my district calls, if they are from

the District of Bonavista South, they get whatever help I can provide them. I

don't care if they are Liberal, Tory, black, white, red, or green, it doesn't

matter. If they are from Bonavista South I will do what I can to help. Come

election time they can do what they want. I will do what I have to do, they can

do what they have to do.

Unfortunately, some people don't do that. The Minister of Health does it.

The Minister of Health, I think, is pretty much the same as I am. I know when

the Minister of Health sees things happen and when he can provide some direction

with having something happen in another district, that he takes as much

satisfaction out of it as the person whose district it is and the people that he

helps.

I say that thinking about the announcement in the Budget for dialysis

machines in St. Anthony and Clarenville. I remember that day with a gentleman

and his wife who were sitting here in the gallery, and who sat here many times

as I presented petitions. When the minister heard that announcement - he knew it

prior to that, because I had chatted with him and I had a feeling that something

positive was coming down - and while he didn't want to say what was in the

Budget, and I didn't want to build up the hope of the gentleman that was here,

we had him come here and sit in the gallery. I tell you, they were two of the

happiest people, and two of the happiest faces, that I have seen in a long

while. Now we could see a gentleman who has been coming here to this town for

the last four years, packing up his truck, taking his food, taking his little

refrigerator every Monday morning and coming to St. John's, checking in at the

hostel, going on dialysis three times a week, and going back home again Friday

evening. That has been the routine for four years. Everybody here was well aware

of it. The man had carried on his own personal pilgrimage, if you would, his own

personal pleas on the open line shows. The day the minister made the

announcement, he was just as happy as the people in the galleries.

The first thing the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture would have said

was: What are you doing that for him for? It is not the way it should be, I say

to the minister. The only person who is going to be doing something for another

individual is going to be you when we go on that tour. When we go on that tour,

Sir, you will be tending on the PC Party hand and foot, I can assure you now.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FITZGERALD: The only plea that I have is that we land that boat in

some isolated place, because I wouldn't want anybody to see me and see the

Member for Baie Verte and the Member for Cape St. Francis when we get off, I can

land on that floating dock, because -

MR. SULLIVAN: Haul her up on the slipway and (inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Haul her up on the slipway over in Champney's. Look at

her rudder and look at some of the graze that is on her, take her out, and away

to go again.

Those are the kind of things that we all share. We can all come in here and

we can buck one another. We can come in here and be against what everybody else

is saying. There has to be some kind of a relationship.

I have a good relationship with the Member for Terra Nova. I would never do

anything in this House or outside the House to belittle him or to take some

credit away from him, and I can tell you that he would not do the same for me. I

had a good relationship with the Member for Trinity North, neighboring MHA, a

fellow I had worked with. I knew him long before politics.

AN HON. MEMBER: Trinity North?

MR. FITZGERALD: The Member for Trinity North. I had a good relationship,

and that is the way it should be. Why should I go to the graduation on May 29 in

Musgravetown, and the school is served by the Member for Terra Nova's district

and my district, why should we go in there and just snub each other and not talk

to each other and that kind of thing? That is not what people want to hear. That

is not what people want to see. We are not running against each other. We are

there to represent the people who have represented us by sending us in here -

for him to occupy a seat from Terra Nova and for me to occupy a seat from

Bonavista South. That is why we are here. There is the way it should be. It was

not always that way.

I know another member. I know the other member, before the present Member for

Terra Nova was here, and it was not a good relationship. It was not a good

situation, but that is the pettiness of politics, the pettiness of politicians.

AN HON. MEMBER: You're a decent man.

MR. FITZGERALD: Absolutely, or I try to be.

AN HON. MEMBER: You have a good relationship with (inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: I have a good relationship with -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, sure I have. I will tell you that if I were the

Minister of Tourism, I would have a good relationship with you, Sir, because we

both share the same thoughts. We both know that there is another life after you

leave this place right here. We both know, when we leave here, that we should

leave what happened here, here.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Was supposed to get it last year, I say. I am not going

to jump up and down about that yet.

Mr. Speaker, I am learning a little bit. It has not been done intentionally,

but I am getting like some government ministers. I am announcing money that the

minister tells me I have, and I have announced it three times already, and I

have not seen the money. Show me the money.

AN HON. MEMBER: Be cautious.

MR. FITZGERALD: Be cautious. It is a good thing that I have not been

taken to task on it. The minister came over last year and said, Roger, you have

the only capital spending in my department this year. You have $500,000. Put out

the announcement. I will support you on it.

I put out the announcement and, the next thing I saw, another news release

from the minister talking about $200,000 going to Bonavista, $160,000 going

somewhere else, another $160,000 going somewhere else. I said: Minister, I

thought I only had $500,000. Now you are giving me $700,000. He said: No, Roger,

you are not getting $500,000. That is the $200,000 you are getting. You are

going to get the rest of it probably next year. So there has been another

announcement made.

MR. TULK: Who was that?

MR. FITZGERALD: The Minister of Tourism.

So there is another announcement made that we are going to get $600,000 this

year, and it is going to be money well spent. It is going to do some work at the

Cape Bonavista lighthouse. In a little news release that the minister put out,

he had indicated that the Bonavista lighthouse sees more tourists, sees more

visitors, than any other place in Newfoundland and Labrador.

AN HON. MEMBER: That is not true.

MR. FITZGERALD: Well, whether it is true or not -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: I don't know. I don't have those stats. I am just

repeating what the minister said. The minister said that it was something like

18,000 people who visited Cape Bonavista last year; but whether it is Cape

Bonavista or whether it is the lighthouse in Twillingate or whether it is the

lighthouse out in Cape Spear, that is not the issue. If we have those strengths

then we should support them. If we have those strengths where we can attract

tourists, and if they are going to go out and visit places like Bonavista,

Twillingate and Cape Spear, then they are also spending some money. They are

buying gasoline. They are eating in restaurants and they are buying crafts, and

that is what makes the economy tick. In fact, if you go out to rural

Newfoundland and Labrador in the summertime you see it come alive. I think we

have learned a lot from other jurisdictions. I think we have learned a lot from

other areas.

In fact, it was only yesterday I was reading the paper - or today probably -

where I see the clubs down on George Street now are looking at setting up little

gardens, eateries, out on the sidewalk. This is new to Newfoundland but it is

not new to any other area of Canada. It is not new in Halifax. It is not new in

Quebec City. It is not new in Toronto. It is not new in Ottawa, but it is a good

thing, I say to people here. Why shouldn't we have outdoor restaurants? We get

as good a weather here as we get anywhere. It was only a couple of days -

MR. SULLIVAN: I wouldn't go that far.

MR. FITZGERALD: We do. Whether you want to grade the weather on how much

sun you get or how much fog you get is entirely up to you, but I can guarantee

you that I would class our weather far above some of the weather that you get in

mainland cities like Toronto and those places where you go and you have the

scorching days. I would much rather have to put on a sweater and go and eat

outside or sit outside than have to go and look for somewhere to fan the - to

keep the sweat off. I know all about Toronto because I worked there for eight

years.

AN HON. MEMBER: You don't want to go back either.

MR. FITZGERALD: I don't want to go back.

MR. SULLIVAN: The climate is warmer now. Global warming has hit it since.

MR. FITZGERALD: I spent eight years working in Toronto, and I know

exactly what it is like. You get off work in the evening and go for a place to

swim, go for a swimming pool or go for the lake.

MR. SULLIVAN: Electrical work?

MR. FITZGERALD: At electrical work with Ontario Hydro, I say to the

member. I worked with Ontario Hydro, out in the nuclear power plant out in Bay

Ridges.

MR. SULLIVAN: Where?

MR. FITZGERALD: Out at Bay Ridges, Pickering, Ontario, out by Lake

Ontario.

AN HON. MEMBER: I passed along by it the other day and I got the shivers.

MR. FITZGERALD: I haven't passed by it since. I wouldn't go near it.

You have a lot of nerve.

AN HON. MEMBER: I don't say you would, after putting it together.

MR. SULLIVAN: He is half afraid something will happen when he's going

by.

MR. FITZGERALD: You talk about our weather, and you say that our weather

here is cold and our weather is foggy and that kind of thing. I remember working

up there. There were two shifts. We would do a week of days and a week of

nights.

AN HON. MEMBER: Did you (inaudible)?

MR. FITZGERALD: Did I get paid for what?

AN HON. MEMBER: Did you get paid for that ticket yet?

MR. FITZGERALD: Oh, yes, I got my money for that and got it spent.

We would go out at nighttime, to go from one of the buildings there to

wherever we ate, and your breath, your nose, would freeze up, it was that cold,

with the wind and the cold that was coming off Lake Ontario. I have never seen

that kind of time here yet. While we don't have great weather, we have good

weather. Why shouldn't we be able to go down on George Street and sit outside

and have a beer if you want one, or have a steak, or have -

AN HON. MEMBER: In Washington they have them outdoors, remember?

MR. FITZGERALD: Sure they do. They have little sleeping places there as

well, I say.

MR. SULLIVAN: Down in Georgetown it is nice outside eating.

MR. FITZGERALD: - or have a hamburger, because it is all part - now I can

go home. Why shouldn't we have those kinds of things here? I don't blame

people for wanting it, because we're as good as the best of them, I can

guarantee you that. We have good weather here and we can go and promote our

area, whether it be St. John's, Bonavista, Twillingate, or anywhere else in

rural Newfoundland and Labrador. We have a lot to offer, and our people are

certainly no different.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Where's that?

AN HON. MEMBER: Georgetown, Washington.

MR. FITZGERALD: Georgetown, Washington. That is one of the very few safe

places in Washington, I say to the minister. Myself, the Speaker, and the Member

for Bellevue spent a few nights in Georgetown, on the river there, having

something to eat after hard days of Parliamentary Conferences.

AN HON. MEMBER: Who was the navigator of that trip?

MR. FITZGERALD: The navigator was the Member for Bellevue. (Inaudible).

AN HON. MEMBER: Where did he lead you?

MR. FITZGERALD: He got led astray quite a few times.

I say to the Minister of Health, if I could get his attention, the first time

we went to Washington on a Parliamentary Conference, myself, the Speaker, and

the Member for Bellevue, the Member for Bellevue was the driver. A normal taxi

route from the airport in Washington to Georgetown is about twenty minutes. He

knows what I am saying. It took us four hours, Sir. We ended up hiring a taxi,

told the driver the name of the hotel, and said: Would you please take us there?

We didn't save much money in renting a car.

I remember, as part of the trip - it didn't cost this House of Assembly

anything - we decided, after the parliamentary trip was over, that we were going

to go somewhere else. We were going to go down and take in another jurisdiction

in the United States. In order to get there, we had to go through Philadelphia.

This was about twelve at night when we were driving through, and I was in the

front seat asleep. The driver, the Member for Bellevue, said to me: Roger, do

you recognize that place there? I said: Yes, that is the Spectrum. You know the

Spectrum because of the way the stairs go up the outside and it is all lit up. I

said: Well, we are in Philadelphia; we are on the right way. I looked at the

map. Yes, he said. He kept driving and I went to sleep. I woke up two hours

later and he said: Roger, do you know where we are? No, I said, but that is the

Spectrum right there. We went two hours and we went right around in a circle.

This is the kind of direction that your government is in. This the kind of

direction that some departments of your government are in, going around in

circles and going nowhere.

MR. BARRETT: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

On a point or order, the hon. the Member for Bellevue.

MR. BARRETT: I want to make sure that the record is clear in terms of

this important issue, in that the reason that we didn't find the hotel is

because the conference organizers had given us the wrong address.

AN HON. MEMBER: Right, and they are not here to defend themselves.

MR. BARRETT: They are not here to defend themselves.

The other thing was that he talked about no direction. The problem was that I

couldn't keep the navigator awake. The person reading the map was asleep, so

it was very difficult to get directions when the person who was giving the

directions was sound asleep. Not only that but he snored.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

While the Chair recognizes that the hon. member's pride may be hurt, there

is no point of order.

The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, that is just a side issue. Parliamentary

trips are good things. It gives you a chance to see how other jurisdictions

work, it gives you a chance to find out how best you can do things yourself.

Probably even better than all of that is that it is a situation for a little bit

of comradely between people you don't ordinarily get together with, and I mean

people from both sides. Here again, political patronage or partisan politics is

laid aside. Here is the Speaker who was on that trip, right here, right now, who

will verify everything that I said earlier.

Mr. Speaker, those are the kind of things that we should continue to do

because that is the only way we can improve things, when we go out, learn, and

ask questions

Having said all that, I have never seen anybody and I have never gone

anywhere where I have seen people so patriotic as Newfoundlanders. I have never

gone anywhere. You notice it on those parliamentary trips. I would submit that

everybody here has been on a parliamentary trip at one time or another in their

tenure here in this House. Mr. Speaker, when you hear Newfoundlanders speak,

they always promote the Province. They always promote where they are from. They

promote their Province, what we have to offer, and how we would enjoy somebody

coming to visit us. You don't hear that from other people. You don't hear

that from other politicians from other Province's. I have never heard it, but

I hear it wherever we go. I hear it from both sides of this House. It is not

somebody following the lead of others. I think it is just something within us

that we want to tell people of where we live, how we live, that we are proud it

and we would like for you to come and visit us and see it for yourself. I think

it is a great place here, and I firmly believe it.

While you talk about the idea that we should adjust to people moving away

from this Province and moving to other places, because in the United States of

America, the great country, the great democracy of the world, people don't go

and live in the community that they were born, they don't go and live in the

community where they work and expect to stay there. They move around. People,

uncaring, say that Newfoundlanders should do the same thing. They say: Because

we do it, and we have no sense of home, and we have no sense of where we are

from or what we are all about, then everybody should do the same thing. It is a

little different here.

I say to the Minister of Government Services and Lands, he can probably

relate to it even more than I can. I visited the man's hometown and I know the

Coast of Labrador fairly well. I can tell you that those people as well are

proud of where they are from, proud of their heritage, don't want to leave,

would like to be able to continue to live and support their families, and have

their families around them. So they should, because these are special places.

While we may go to some of those special places ourselves, and we may say: I

wouldn't want to live here, I wouldn't want to stay somewhere else, I think

we can all feel some sort of relationship, and some sort of whatever it is that

is in us, where we can understand why people don't want to leave. Because it

is special things. I say this sometime when I visit seniors' functions, and I

talk about the comradery and the friendship that we experience by coming

together. When you see seniors come together in small communities and small

towns around Newfoundland and Labrador, and the reason why they come out and sit

together, and enjoy a supper and a little bit of fellowship, it is all about

people knowing each other.

When you look at somebody, you don't only see the face looking back at you,

you see the son, you see the daughter, you see the uncle, you see the whole

family. Because they are people that you know, they are people that you have

grown up with. When you meet somebody, it is always: How is Uncle So-and-So, or

Aunt Somebody Else, or how is Mrs. So-And-So? Everybody knows everybody, and

everybody has feelings about everybody.

When you inquire in rural areas sometimes as to how somebody is -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. FITZGERALD: If you had some people from St. John's out there, I say

to the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi, they might say you are nosy, because

you are asking questions. They can't relate to it. It is not that you are

nosy, it's not that you want to inquire because it is something that you want

to tell somebody else about. You inquire because you care. You inquire because

you care about somebody.

I read with some interest a few months ago - maybe it was even longer than

that - where there was a story written about this older gentleman who was found

over in Germany sitting in front of his television set. He had been dead for

five months. The way he was found was like this. Nobody had bothered going to

his door. He lived alone. He had enough money put in the bank to look after his

rent and all his bills, and the bills were coming out of his bank account. As

the bills were due, it was all set up to come out of his bank account. Finally

the bank account ran out, and there was no money there. The landlord went up to

knock on his door, and he couldn't get in. When he went in, he found this

older gentleman dead in front of the t.v. set. He had the television guide in

front of him, and the television guide was opened up to a certain date. It was

five months prior to him been found. He was dead for five months before anybody

even knew he was dead.

Can that happen here in rural Newfoundland? Does anybody know a place in

rural Newfoundland where that can happen? It can't happen!

MR. BARRETT: It wouldn't be five hours.

MR. FITZGERALD: It wouldn't be five hours, the Member for Bellevue

says. He is right. It can't happen in Newfoundland, because the first thing

is, if we do not see somebody out to the clothesline or out on the beach, or out

in the garden or starting up their car, we are going to pick up the phone and

call. We are going to go and knock on the door. We do not do it because we want

to gossip. We do it because we care. That would never happen here. It would

never happen in rural Newfoundland for sure.

So that is the way we are. That is the reason why we are proud of who we are.

While we come here and we banter back and forth, there is part of that in each

and every Member of the House of Assembly. There is part of that in each and

every one of us here. While sometimes you try to be tough and you try to put the

best foot forward because I am this or I am that, we are all not much different

no matter where we are from, whether we are from the South Coast, the Cape

Shore, the East Coast, or from the Labrador Coast. We are all the same. We are

from this special place called Newfoundland.

That is why, Mr. Speaker, it bothers me sometimes when I have to go to people

like the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture. That is why I have to go to beg

to him to help some people in my district, and he plays partisan politics with

them. He does not -

AN HON. MEMBER: Who?

MR. FITZGERALD: The Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

That is why it bothers me. It bothers me because he is not helping me. While

he is disappointing me by not allowing it to happen, he is not hurting me. He is

hurting people who deserve special treatment. I do not think that there are too

many ministers over there other than him who would be like that. I know the

Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, I would submit, is probably the

most disappointed person sitting in this House today.

AN HON. MEMBER: Why?

MR. FITZGERALD: He is disappointed because he knows that he does not have

enough money passed to him in his Budget to look after the need in rural

Newfoundland and Labrador for roads. He knows himself, and he knows that he

would like to reach out and put forward some dollars and some cents to be able

to attend to the need that is there. He knows, Mr. Speaker, that he cannot

respond to the needs that are out in rural Newfoundland. He can only pay lip

service to it. While he is going to please one or two people -

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. FITZGERALD: - I say he is going to disappoint many more.

Mr. Speaker, with those brief comments I will sit and allow somebody else to

speak.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to (inaudible) before the House,

An Act To Amend the Fishing

Industry Collective Bargaining Act. I can understand why the Minister of Health

and Community Services is wondering what piece of legislation the previous

speaker was talking about. I was wondering myself. I listened very carefully at

the beginning when he was talking about the Fishing Industry Collective

Bargaining Act. Then I thought I went to sleep for a day or so and we were

listening to him talk about another bill, because the last going off I heard him

talking about democracy in America and some poor fellow who had fallen asleep

for five months before his t.v. set. Then it turned out that in fact he was

deceased.

He was talking about democracy in America and how supposedly it is the most

democratic country in the world. I am going to take up that theme in a minute,

but before I do that I want to go directly to the meat of the matter and talk

about the bill that is before the House,

An Act To Amend the Fishing Industry

Collective Bargaining Act. I think it is a piece of legislation that has been

the result of a fair amount of cooperative effort and problem solving in an

industry that is vital to this Province.

What we have seen happening in the past as a result of intransigence on one

side or the other, or as a result of the inability of parties with goodwill on

both sides of the equation at certain times to reach an agreement on the price

of fish to be paid to fish harvesters, is the industry has been shut down. At

times that has been to the determent not only to the processors but also the

harvesters themselves, the plant workers, the communities involved, and to the

point where the fishing season has been missed, or a goodly portion has been

missed where, particularly in some cases, at the early part of the season, the

prices might be better. The industry, as a whole, hasn't been able to take

advantage of the markets and, in fact, has lost markets as a result of

unreliability of supply. That is becoming increasingly important in our fishing

industry. The integration of the market with processing, the timely delivery of

product because of contracts that are engaged with major chains of food to

service industry, means we have to recognize that we are in an industry which,

if we miss the market, we may in some cases lose that market for not only that

year, but the next, and possibly not be available for longer-term contracts.

The certainty of supply has been a problem. We saw it in the crab industry a

couple of years ago, and from time to time we have seen it in the caplin

industry, although I don't really know what has happened to the caplin

industry. It seems that industry has suffered a setback.

We have a bill before the House that allows - this has been debated before. I

have spoken on it, the minister has spoken on it, the Member for Bonavista South

has spoken on it before - where the parties have tried an experiment, and a

cautious one I have to say, because, certainly on the union's side, a

commitment to this type of process, the results of it, aren't always known in

advance. I think the minister was wise and the government was wise to offer this

as a pilot project for a couple of seasons to see how it worked, to allow the

process to work through cycles of where the price is up and the price is down to

see how the system works. It appears that the results have been acceptable to

the parties and they are now agreed to see it go into permanent legislation.

I had a little concern, in looking at the bill itself, about the change in

the terminology used from operator to processor. I understand - I guess the

minister can confirm this when he closes debate - that this doesn't represent

any policy change, that processor still includes people who aren't actually

processing. It still includes people who are buying fish. They may be buying

lobsters and not processing them at all, just reselling them. They may be buying

product and reselling them to a major processor. They too are included, I

understand, in the legislation and, in fact, processor is a term that is more

appropriate to the common understanding of the fishing industry. I think the

word operator was devised some time ago. It was even awkward at the time it was

used initially, but it was intended to ensure that anybody who was involved in

the purchasing of fish directly from the harvesters of fish, the fishermen and

fisherwomen of this Province, were to be covered by the Fishing Industry

Collective Bargaining act.

I think it is worthwhile saying, while we are talking about this bill, that

this is a bill unique in Canada in terms of giving fish harvesters the right to

collective bargaining with the buyers of fish. It doesn't happen in British

Columbia, it doesn't happen in Nova Scotia. Other provinces' fishing

industries would like to have this kind of legislation. It was brought into this

Province back in the early 1970s. I think the last of the Liberal government,

the government of Premier Smallwood, brought this legislation in as part of its,

I believe, last mandate or second last mandate in this House.

It is legislation that has gone through three or four governments: the

government of Premier Smallwood, the government of Premier M