Manitoba Hansard — 22 September 2003 (Sitting 10, 38th Legislature, 1st Session)

38-1-10

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session - Thirty-Eighth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LIV No. 10 – 1:30 p.m., Monday, September 22, 2003

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY First Session–Thirty-Eighth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thom pson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter Gimli N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C.

FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. LOEWEN, John Fort Whyte P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon.

Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine Riel N.D.P. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon. Minto N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa Seine River N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P.

SMITH, Scott, Hon. Brandon West N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

1041 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, September 22, 2003 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PETITIONS Dialysis Services Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I wish to present the following petition to the Legis- lative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: Kidney dialysis is an important procedure for those with kidney failure who are unable to receive a kidney transplant. Mr. Speaker, those receiving kidney dialysis treatment are able to lead productive lives de- spite the continual commitment and time-con- suming nature of the process.

Kidney dialysis patients from out-of-prov- ince must be able to access dialysis services while in Manitoba to sustain their health and ives. l Although a person's province of origin covers all of his or her dialysis costs while she or he is visiting Manitoba, individuals receiving dialysis are currently unable to visit this province due to the lack of dialysis nurses to oversee the procedure.

The travel restrictions placed on out-of- province dialysis patients due to the growing nursing shortage in Manitoba's health care sys- tem presents concerns regarding freedom of movement and quality of life for those on ialysis. d We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister of Health to con- sider enhancing training programs for dialysis nurses in Manitoba, such that staffing shortages in this area are filled. To request the Minister of Health to con- sider the importance of providing short-term dialysis services for out-of-province visitors to Manitoba.

Signed by Debora Wiens, Cindy Stewart and Susan Gill. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132(6), when a petition is read it is deemed to be received by the House. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us from R.H.G. Bonnycastle School 49 Grade 3 students under the direction of Mrs. Susan Laspina, Mrs. Li nda Mozol and also Mr. Ron Vermette. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for Fort hyte (Mr. Loewen).

W On behalf of all honourable members, I elcome you here today. w * (13:35) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy Cash Advance for Producers Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I had the opportunity to meet with some young families over the weekend who are being affected by this BSE crisis. One of the young girls I met with, Katie Kruk, recently wrote an essay on the impact that this crisis is having on her, her friends and her amily. f I would like to table copies of what she said to the House, Mr. Speaker. She said and I quote:

1042 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 22, 2003 "It might even come to moving far away from the farm my family has been on for generations." Mr. Speaker, Katie's family and the other 12 000 farm families dealing with this crisis need a cash advance. It will cost this Premier less than $20 million. Will he today show some compassion to those farm families, do the right thing and offer a cash advance? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, we have authorized $100 million in low-interest cash advance. Mr. Murray: Mr.

Speaker, today is the 126th day of this crisis and it gets more critical with each passing day that this Premier does not understand the programs he has put in place do not work. It is a cash advance that Manitobans are looking for. As Katie said and I quote: "This mad cow scare isn't only affecting us now, but in years to come. Down the road when its time for me to go to University, there will be no money in our savings." Think how it feels to be feeding the world and not being able to feed your family. If you knew how hard and the suffering it takes to be a farmer, you would have a little more respect for us.

Mr. Speaker, will the Premier show Katie, show her family, the other 12 000 farm families that are out there struggling through this crisis, will he show them the respect that they deserve and give them a cash advance today? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, we respect the Canadian farmer and we respect the Manitoba farmer and we respect Katie's family as farmers here in Manitoba. Three out of the last four years, we have taken money out of the rainy day fund, two years running to deal with the grain and oilseeds crisis. Now this year–[interjection] Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Thank you.

The member opposite should remember he asked us to drain the rainy day fund completely in '99, 2000, 2001. If we had done that, Mr. Speaker, we would not have anything left for the beef program today. Mr. Speaker, we obviously are dealing with multiple stress in the system with the closure of the border since May 20, extreme stress for families that do not know when the next stage of the border opening is going to take place.

We are dealing also with the compounded impact with some areas with drought and the inability to manage their herd with those weather conditions in two of the areas that we know of in Manitoba. That is why we have announced with- out any federal support to date the drought trans- portation assistance program. We have also an- nounced funds and more funds to be available on the cattle slaughter issue. We know that one of the great disadvantages Manitoba has, even in the middle of this national crisis, is the fact that we process so few of our own cattle here in Manitoba.

It was some 290 000 cattle that were processed some 10 years ago, well, in fact, 10 or 12 years ago and we are now down to a si tuation where it is under 20 000, which is an unacceptable situation for Katie and her family and for all Manitobans in erms of dealing with this challenge. t * (13:40) Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, there are more than 12 000 farm families who are struggling to pay their bills, to feed and clothe their children and winter is fast approaching.

The young Mani- tobans who I have talked to over the weekend have already accepted that Christmas this year is going to be the harsh reality, that they will be fortunate to have food and just bare necessities. Surely in Manitoba, when families are suffering, as they are suffering under this Doer govern- ment, those families deserve better. This is Man- toba. i Katie said and I go on to quote: "So please, if you are listening, I just want you to under- stand, this doesn't only affect adults, but the kids too.

If the Government doesn't give us the help we need we won't have a home to go back to just a lot of bad memories." Mr. Speaker, will the Premier please, today, show some compassion, do the right thing for

September 22, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1043 those 12 000 families who are suffering because he has programs that do not work? Flow the cash advance. Do the right thing today. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, we signed a mirror agreement today in Ottawa to follow the advice of farm organizations that are representing the family the member referred to. They feel the cash will come from that. It was essential to sign the mirror agreement. We did so to consider the reality that the member opposite points out, that people are without income if they cannot sell their cattle.

We are trying to replace some of that income with the mirror program. Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy Cash Advance for Producers Mrs. Leanne Ro wat (Minnedosa): The toll of the BSE crisis on the young people in rural Manitoba is mounting. Our leader and I met with several farm families on the weekend. Sarah Kruk wrote a compelling story on the emotional and financial reality her family is facing. I will table her letter to the House, as well, please. She writes, and I quote: "But this year decisions had to be made. I chose not to take my Grade 5 piano exams and only necessities for school were bought." Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk) must understand the sacrifices these young women are making and these young families are making, both academically and emotionally. Can the minister today respond to Sarah's family and the other 12 000 farm fami- lies by implementing the cash advance program? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): As I stated last Thursday and I will reiterate again today, there is the low-interest loan program, one of the two options suggested by the Leader of the Op- position. Mr. Speaker, there is a separate pro- gram to deal with drought transportation.

I understand that there is a little more moisture in the Souris area today. Hopefully, that will provide some hope for our next planting season. I also know that all the organizations that we listened to said, yes, the program has been approved with the national government; yes, the program has been enhanced but you have no choice but to sign the program. We are listening to the organizations that represent farmers be- cause I am sure those organizations are listening to all the family members as well. Mrs. Rowat: Mr. Speaker, yes, there is rain in the southwestern area of the province.

It is going to help for next year, but it is not helping this year. The drought assistance program is a joke because it is not helping 90 percent of the farmers in the area. That was a major point of discussion from the fath ers in the family yes- terday. It was a major disappointment. Sarah Kruk writes and I quote: "When Christmas comes around it will be necessities only and not a lot of extras. During these past few months I have learned that when you have a big decision to make it has to be made and that not everything is easy." Mr.

Speaker, Sarah shares how difficult it is to make tough decisions and that they have to be made. Will the Minister of Agriculture make the right decision and give the families like Sarah's the cash advance program today? Mr. Doer: We have the low-interest loan pro- gram, a recommendation that was also made by members opposite in letters they wrote to pro- ucers last August. d Secondly, we have the mirror program that we are signing today because of the advice of the KAP organization, the cattle producers, the Manitoba Chamber of Commerce, the muni- cipalities. Thirdly, Mr.

Speaker, the municipalities of Canada recommended at their meeting in Wind- sor that there needs to be a national federal program to deal with the economic uncertainty for cattle producers. Even the slaughter subsidy program, the Province of Manitoba is on our own hook after August 31 because the federal government would not extend that. Even that program has a disproportionate benefit where ou have greater slaughter capacity. y * (13:45) Mrs. Rowat: Recommendations are great, but action is more important and the people want the

1044 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 22, 2003 cash advance program. Sarah quotes right now: the border is still closed to live cattle. Calves have not been sold and bills are piling up. Today my family and I try to remain optimistic. Unfor- tunately, though, in the end the worst did come. Mr. Speaker, given that the worst has now come for so many family farms, will the Minis- ter of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk) stop being so oblivious to how the BSE crisis is affecting the farm families and provide the cash advance today? Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, the minister has been listening to farm families and she has listened to the farm organizations. All three major organi- zations dealing with the cattle producers have recommended that we sign the mirror agreement. Members opposite have listened to that advice. Department of Agriculture and Food Advertising Campaign Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): We have just heard from the Leader of the Oppo- sition (Mr. Murray) and the Member for Min- nedosa (Mrs. Rowat) a very compelling and an emotional story about the plight of rural Mani- toba families stricken hard by the BSE crisis.

The resilience of these people should never be underestimated. Today when I opened our two city news- papers, I have to wonder if this Government has any understanding of the pain that is out there in the rural areas. My question to the Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk) is: How dare you spend thousands and thousands of dollars patting your- self on the back with half-page, self-congratu- latory advertisements in these papers when people could use those same dollars to ease the suffering that is going on in the rural areas today? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, the Department of Agriculture has an advertising budget; I expect that they are using it. Mr. Maguire: Mr. Speaker, this advertising is absolutely atrocious. This Government is waging a public relations campaign in the city of Winnipeg to cover up its failure to provide much-needed cash flow, a cash advance program that is truly going to help the families in crisis. This advertisement does not even explain how the programs work. They are strictly intended to highlight the phantom accomplishments of this Government.

Will the Minister of Agriculture stop wast- ing taxpayers' money and cancel this ad program today? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. We are into the early part of Question Period and I would just like to cau- tion all honourable members: When putting a question, put it through the Chair and – An Honourable Member: Put some money out there. Mr. Speaker: Order. I know all members are passionate about the issue.

I understand that, but we need to maintain decorum in this– [inter- jection] I want to once again remind all honourable members, when the Speaker is giving caution to the House, all members should listen to the caution and not carry conversations back and forth, because I was speaking to all the mem- bers. Order. We are early in Question Period and I know all members are very passionate about this issue, but we have to maintain some control, and I expect decorum to be maintained at all times in this House. I am sure that all members in this Assembly expect the same.

I ask all honourable members to put their questions and their answers through the Chair, not directly to one another. Hon. Ron Lemieux (Acting Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, I had the oppor- tunity to meet with a number of dairy producers and beef producers on Friday. Being from the southeast part of Manitoba, I know a lot of families are certainly affected in one way or another. I know the Minist er of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk) in Manitoba and the Premier (Mr. Doer) have worked extremely hard over the last number of months to not only make sure that the

September 22, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1045 border is open, which is the key issue, but also with regard to signing the APF which ensures continuation of the income stabilization pro- grams. This program is not perfect and the Min- ister of Agriculture worked hard to get areas in it changed and to ensure that the best benefits ould flow to Manitoba farmers. w * (13:50) Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy Cash Advance for Producers Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): Mr. Speaker, I do not know whether to laugh or cry.

If this was not such a blatant misuse and a blatant attempt to deceive Manitobans, it could be humorous. This is absolutely tragic. It is a time of crisis. The Government is wasting money, tens of thousands of dollars in an attempt to make itself look good. My question to the mi nister, Mr. Speaker, is: Will she hear the pleas of families like the Kruks, end their self-congratulatory ad campaign and put money in the hands of these people today? Hon. Ron Lemieux (Acting Minister of Agriculture): It is important to put on the record how hard the Minister of Agriculture (Ms.

Wowchuk) has worked as well as this Gov- ernment. Not only is there $100 million in low- interest loans to producers through MACC loan program but also another $43 million in funding is available through the APF to producers, and also under the BSE Recovery Program another $15 million, drought assistance another $12 million, the BSE slaughter program another $10 million. Mr. Speaker, in total it is $180 million that this Government has on the table to assist farmers in Manitoba. Sunrise School Division Labour Dispute–Funding Mrs.

Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Last week during Estimates the Education Minister con- firmed that $428,000 of taxpayer money was given to Sunrise School Division to help end a strike. No formal reque st for help ever came from the school division and Lloyd Schreyer, a Treasury Board employee, was the Govern- ment's representative in negotiating the settle- ment. Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance. Why did the minister direct his employee, Mr. Lloyd Schreyer, to get involved in the Sunrise School Division's labour dispute just prior to the election? Hon.

Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): In March, the chair of the Sunrise School Division wrote to government expressing concern about the disparity in wages between the two divisions that were merged together. The situation ap- peared unique in that there was a 56% gap disparity between the two divisions and a strike was imminent and, in fact, a strike came into effect before Lloyd Schreyer contacted MAST.

MAST, in turn, contacted the school division and both parties felt that he could play a useful role in resolving this dispute and ensuring that children and families were able to get to school and have the programs they need. Mrs. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, perhaps we should bring the Minister of Finance up to date with this issue. There was never any formal request from the school division for funds from the Government, so perhaps he should take that into consideration when answering his question. Why did the Minister of Finance authorize his employee, Mr.

Schreyer, to negotiate on be- half of the Department of Education in a labour dispute in Sunrise School Division just prior to the election? Mr. Selinger: As I said earlier, after receiving this information from the chair of the Sunrise School Division that they had an enormous wage disparity of 56 percent between the two divisions that were merged together and after consulting with MAST who, in turn, consulted with the school division, Mr.

Schreyer was asked to come in and work with them to find a solution to ensure that the strike which was underway could be brought to a conclusion and that programs would be available for school children and their families before the school year was terminated. Mrs. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, why did the Min- ister of Finance have one of his employees offer almost half a million dollars of taxpayer money to end a strike in a targeted riding just two weeks prior to the last provincial election campaign?

1046 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 22, 2003 Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Once again, I would like to remind all honourable members when the Speaker rises, all members should be seated and the Speaker should be heard in silence. I once again ask the co-operation of all honourable embers. m * (13:55) Mr. Selinger: The solution that was found required the school division to provide two thirds of the resources, one third provided by the provincial government. This is over a three-year period.

When you have a situation when there is a 56% wage disparity between two units that have come together and you have a strike underway and there is a desire to ensure that children can continue to go to school until the end of the regular school year and the school division believes they can come up with two thirds of the resources, it seemed reas onable and prudent to find the other third to assist that school division, including a collective agreement to ensure the children were back in school. Sunrise School Division Labour Dispute–Funding Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste.

Rose): This Minister of Finance is saying he authorized his employee to intervene in the mediation process. Did he in fact authorize his employee to intervene? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): As I said earlier, Mr. Speaker, the employee con- tacted MAST, the Manitoba Association of School Trustees and asked if there was a prob- lem that required any assistance. They in turn talked to the school division and both parties indicated they thought he could play a useful role in helping resolve this problem.

Only then did he enter the situation to help find an equi- table solution to a problem that was leaving children outside of the school system at a time when they needed their education. Mr. Cummings: The Minister of Finance seems only to be concerned about strikes just prior to the election. There is one going on out there now. Mr. Speaker, the wide discrepancies between school divisions is a result of the ac- tions of this Government. On what criteria did he authorize this grant? Mr. Selinger: Mr.

Speaker, as I indicated earlier, there appeared to be a disparity between the two units coming together in the two school divisions that was extremely wide, 56 percent. That disparity was beyond the capacity of that school division to address it immediately. They were able to find two thirds of the solution. They required some additional assistance spread over three years to resolve the problem. We must remember the strike had already begun. Children and families were being dis- located from having access to the school pro- gram. They were out of school.

With those kinds of immediate and imminent problems before that school division, they were very happy to get additional assistance to solve the problem. Mr. Cummings: The Minister of Finance being the chief financial officer of this Government should always know, or should be expected to know, on what criteria government spends this amount of money. This is not an insignificant amount of money. I asked him before and I ask him again: On what criteria did he authorize his employee to intervene? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, I think I have made it extremely clear.

There appeared to be a unique situation where the wage disparity was 56 per- cent. That situation was larger than the average wage disparity between units that were merging as a part of the school amalgamation process. This large disparity appeared to be beyond the capacity of the new merged school division. Even though they thought they could come up with two thirds of the solution, they were ap- preciative of the remaining third being spread over three years, available from government. Hells Angels Trial Witness Protection Mr. Gerald Hawran ik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr.

Speaker, the Hells Angels associates are cur- rently representing themselves in court because– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

September 22, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1047 Mr. Speaker: Order. Once again, I would like to ask the co-operation of all honourable members. am sure we all want to hear the question. I * (14:00) Mr. Hawranik: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Hells Angels associates are currently repre- senting themselves in court because their law- yers are asking for more money from Legal Aid. Their lawyers are asking the courts to dismiss the charges of violence and intimidation-related offences against them.

Hells Angels associates could walk out of the courtroom free men with- out having to undergo a trial for the criminal acts that they have committed. Will the Minister of Justice take responsi- bility if the Hells Angels associates are released without a trial and set free to terrorize innocent Manitobans? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I am very concerned a practising lawyer who has done criminal work would violate the sub judice convention.

He knows full well that members in this House should not undermine a trial, some- thing that is before the courts, that is being determined by and supervised by the judicial system and by a judge. This side does not want to see any charges dismissed because of political interference. Mr. Hawranik: Mr. Speaker, I am not asking for evidence in the trial. I am not bringing forth any facts that have not been presented in the Free Press. The Hells Angels have been making a mockery out of the justice system in this province. The Justice Minister has shown no leadership and is not in control of the Justice Department.

Because of this, the Hells Angels associates may be released and all charges against them may be dismissed. A release of the Hells Angels associates will send waves of terror through Manitoba, especial- ly to those witnesses who have agreed to testify against them at the trial. Will this Minister of Justice take responsibility for the safety of those witnesses and those families? Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, if you dissect the question that is being asked, it is quite clear the member is trying to assist the defence in their argument on the Legal Aid funding issue.

The other side obviously just wants more money to Legal Aid. This Government, I am not speaking about any particular case, has and will continue to attempt to ensure that taxpayer interests as well as the interests of fairne ss in the justice system are respected when it comes to Legal Aid funding. Mr. Hawranik: Mr. Speaker, the safety of Manitobans is in jeopardy. The Minister of Jus- tice is responsible to ensure the safety of Mani- tobans. He has let the Hells Angels wrestle the justice system to the ground and the minister has sat back and let it happen.

If those Hells Angels associates are released and set free because of the lack of action by this minister, what will this minister do to protect the witnesses and their families? Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, as to the accur- acy of any allegations from the members op- posite, the true facts will be discussed and adjudicated in a court of law and not in the Legislature. Mr.

Speaker, I find it interesting, as a practising criminal lawyer can you imagine him making a case in his local community for the defence when all of a sudden he gets word that, as a result of questions in Question Period, the Attorney General is going to step in? Political interference is not something I think a respon- sible Opposition would demand. Lake Winnipeg Environmental Recovery Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Conservation.

On August 12, the Free Press reported that the Government was committed to making sure that within two or three years Lake Winnipeg will be well on the way to recovery. Manitobans were pleased to hear that the Government will have Lake Winnipeg on its way to recovery in two or three years but somewhat skeptical of the Government's ability to deliver, particularly since it took four years to set up the Lake Winnipeg Stewardship Board.

1048 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 22, 2003 I ask today if the Minister of Conservation can provide the specific measures and time lines that he is going to deliver to make sure that Lake Winnipeg is recovered in two or three years. Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Conserva- tion): Mr. Speaker, I am very proud of the action we have taken in terms of Lake Winnipeg and, in fact, in developing a water strategy for Manitoba, something that is long overdue.

I am glad the member referenced the CEC because one of the main problems we are dealing with was back in 1992, even though the CEC had recommended that the matter of the operations of the city of Winnipeg be referred back in terms of their sewage water systems. This never hap- pened, and we saw the kind of situation that could lead to last year. Mr. Speaker, we have now received the CEC report. We have agreed to it in principle. We have indicated we will be responding, and, in fact, we have already indicated that we are responding in terms of all the matters within provincial jurisdiction.

We are now looking to the City of Win- nipeg, as well, to do the right thing, in this case implement the kind of planning that should have taken place 10 years ago that we will now see under this Government. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, yesterday's NDP promised action in 1973 and 1974. It is 30 years later and we are still at the starting blocks with the Clean Environment Commission report. The Clean Environment Commission said that there is a 25-year time line for action.

I ask the minister, you know, it is not very credible to propose that he is going to have a 25-year time line for action under the Clean Environment Commission, yet Lake Winnipeg is going to be cleaned up in two or three years. Give us a break. I ask the Minister of Conservation what specific action plans he is going to present that will clean up Lake Winnipeg in two or three years. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, if the member oppo- site had been paying some attention, he would see we have already acted. I would like the member to note, on the record, it is not just the city of Winnipeg.

All 1.1 million Manitobans are part of the problem and have to be part of the solution. In fact, upwards of 30 percent comes from outside our jurisdiction, and I hope his friends in Ottawa will work with us to work with the U.S. The fact is we are currently on a bilateral basis to reduce nutrient overloads and other sources of pressure on Lake Winnipeg. But we have already acted in terms of regulation in terms of septic fields, in terms of sewage, Mr. Speaker. We have already acted by, in this case, major changes in terms of livestock regulations. Unlike the member opposite, we are putting in place action.

Action speaks louder than words and you will see improvement in Lake Winnipeg under the NDP government. Canadian Beef Promotion Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, at a time when the cattle industry is in need, we recognize the importance of public support. In fact, Manitobans, businesses, in fact Burger King, they had this nice "I love Canadian beef" promotion, as Manitobans get behind an industry that is in need. I had an individual that I met recently, and he was quite upset. He was upset with the fact that the NDP in Swan River, where we have the Deputy Premier, the Minister of Agriculture (Ms.

Wowchuk), was having an annual pork event. I am wondering if the Minister of Agri- culture would see it appropriate, maybe not necessarily to include the beef component, not necessarily you have to exclude, but at least recognize the sensitivity of the industry as this particular individual did. Does the Government not have the sensitivity– Mr. Speaker: Order. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Well, Mr. Speaker, I think it is important to eat beef, pork, chicken, turkey, pickerel, lamb. I have ordered a couple of lambs, you know, bison, caribou– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order.

September 22, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1049 Mr. Doer: I find the people in Swan River are still talking about the member from Inkster whose biggest concern during the emergency debate was where he was sitting as opposed to where he was standing for beef producers, Mr. peaker. S. ( 14:10) Workplace Safety Government Initiatives Ms. Kerri Irvin-Ross (Fort Garry): I noted that there are new advertisements on TV regarding the SAFE Manitoba campaign which has been very effective in getting the message out to the public that we all are responsible for work safety.

Can the minister tell this House what progress has been made to reduce Manitoba's injury rate? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Labour and Immigration): Mr. Speaker, as Minister of Labour I want to indicate that one of the top priorities for this Government has been in terms of workplace safety and health, improving our record in terms of workplace safety and health.

I am very pleased to say that since 1999, as a result of such policies as increasing inspec- tions, the fact that we have also more than doubled the number of prosecutions in terms of workplace safety and health as a result of public awareness, which is continual and ongoing, we are starting to see some real progress, in fact a 14% decline in time-loss injuries from 2000 until the year 2002. I want to stress, Mr .

Speaker, working in partnership with the labour movement and with business, and with our new act, by the way, which was voted against by the Conservatives, unanimous support by the business and labour committee. We will move ahead. Our goal is to reduce injuries in the workplace and we are doing it. Gang-related Crime Reduction Strategy Mr. Gerald Hawran ik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, Guy Ouellette, an organized crime spe- cialist indicates that there have been 37 gang- related murders or attempted murders in Mani- toba since November 1, 2000.

Those 37 murders or attempted murders are more than occurred in Ontario, Québec and British Columbia com- bined. Since this Doer government took power in Manitoba, we have seen a proliferation of gangs and criminal gang activity. When will this Minister of Justice come up with a plan to re- duce the number of gangs in Manitoba and the number of gang-related crimes in Manitoba? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I am very pleased that the member opposite recognizes the status of Guy Ouellette as an expert in dealing with the challenge of organized crime in Canada.

I am also very pleased that Mr. Ouellette has cited this particular Government as the only govern- ment in Canada that is showing leadership and the political will, Mr. Speaker, in bringing in the toughest provincial legislation in the country to counter organized crime. Mr. Hawranik: Mr. Speaker, I find it shocking at the number of gang-related murders and at- tempted murders in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, 37 is more than Ontario, Québec and British Col- umbia combined, particularly since those three provinces have more than 20 times the popu- lation of Manitoba.

Manitoba currently holds the dubious distinction of having the most biker- gang violence in Canada. What does the minister expect Manitobans to do when he has no plan and the effort that he has made and put forward has clearly failed? Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, in addition to Mr. Ouellette citing Manitoba's efforts at the provincial level, I cite the Toronto Star report earlier this year by Peter Edwards who says, the Manitoba Angels will struggle to hold their membership at 12, losing manpower to prison, cocaine addiction and deportation. Five Mani- toba Angels are in prison, are facing charges.

This is as of January. In contrast, the Ontario Angels have shot up from 168 members in December 2000 to about 270 members today. Ontario accounts for almost half of the gang's national membership and

1050 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 22, 2003 fewer than 10 of those Ontario members are either in jail or facing charges. Mr. Speaker, this

article is headed: No welcome sign in the window, Manitoba passes tough laws to fight biker gangs. Mr. Hawranik: Mr. Speaker, I thank the minis- ter for that statement. However, our Chief Jus- tice disagrees with him. Clayton Sumner was a member of a street gang and he pled last week guilty to manslaughter for the stabbing death of Winnipeg cab driver Pritam Deol. Associate Chief Justice Oliphant said during sentencing: Our community continues to suffer from an epi- demic of brutal, senseless crimes committed by people like you. You and your fellow gang members contribute nothing positive to society.

When will this Justice Minister end this epidemic of brutal senseless crimes committed by gang members in this province? Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, I remind the members opposite that last year the crime rate went down in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, I also remind members that it was this provincial government alone in Canada that brought in the courthouse security legislation, The Fortified Buildings Act, The Safer Communities Act, The Civil Remedies Against Organized Crime Act. We are not finished. The Hells Angels arrived in Manitoba in 1997 under the watch of the former government.

They did nothing except put in place a so-called hotline that went cold for tips on gangs. They did not answer it for five months at a time. We do not need lessons from members opposite on countering organized crime. Sunrise School Division Labour Dispute–Funding Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, this Minister of Finance has done nothing to deny that he instructed Lloyd Schreyer to inter- vene in the mediation process. Therefore, I ask him again: What criteria did he give Mr. Schreyer in order to encourage him to be involved in that process? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr.

Speaker, I have been crystal clear that the situation in this school division was unique in that there was a 56% disparity in wages. I have also been very clear that the provincial employee only entered the situation after the strike had started. He did not interfere with collective bar- gaining or mediation. Only after the strike was started did he come in to resolve a uniquely wide wage disparity for which the school division could find two thirds of the money and the Province, through the Schools Grants program, was able to find the remainder. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Parklands/Mixed Woods Gallery Ms. Nancy Allan (St. Vital): Mr. Speaker, I was pleased to attend the grand opening of the new Parklands/Mixed Woods Gallery at the Manitoba Museum on September 18. The new Manitoba Mixed Woods Gallery, with two floors and a total of 1000 square feet, was designed as a replication of the mixed-woods region of Manitoba and as a replication of the cultural and natural diversity of our province. This area includes the western border north of the Duck Mountains, southwest through the Interlake, across to the Whiteshell and south to the U.S. border.

This immense area includes the most populated regions of our province, including the city of Winnipeg. The gallery includes magnificent displays of the natural features of our beautiful province. It provides a learning place in which people of all ages can explore giant lake s, rivers, sand hills, snake pits and bat caves. It also features displays of people from our diverse Manitoba heritage, our First Nations peoples and early immigrants. This astounding display is all included within the two floors of the gallery. It is the largest history classroom in Manitoba, home for over 100 000 students every year.

The gallery has been six years in its design and construction. Thanks to the hard work and dedication of the curators, artists, the staff and the board of directors, it has culminated in an incredible mosaic of our heritage. I would also like to thank museum members, donors, friends,

September 22, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1051 sponsors, volunteers and their families for their dedication to this project. The capital campaign was launched over 10 years ago to make this allery a reality. g I was privileged to participate in the opening and accept, on behalf of the Premier of Manitoba (Mr. Doer), a recogniti on award for the Govern- ment's investment and support of the Urban Development Initiative to enhance this gallery. It is projects like these that help preserve the his- tory of Manitoba for current and future gen- erations. Honourable Duff Roblin Mrs.

Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to congratulate the Hon- ourable Duff Roblin for being the recent recipient of the Health Sciences Centre Founda- tion's 2003 Laureate of Excellence Award. Established in 1991, the Laureate of Excellence Award recognizes excellence on the part of an individual, organization or group for a special contribution to society, whether it is local, national or international. As an upstanding citizen, Mr. Roblin was successful in private business and also served in the Canadian Armed Forces during the Second World War. Most notably, Mr.

Roblin has played a vital role in the history of Manitoba, both as a member of the Manitoba Legislative Assembly and as Premier from 1958 to 1967. He later went on to become a member of the Privy ouncil of Canada and the Canadian Senate. C * (14:20) The 2003 Laureate of Excellence award recognizes Mr. Roblin's insightful leadership and his many achievements that have contributed immensely to the social, cultural and economic betterment of our province and ultimately im- proved the quality of life for all Manitobans.

His vision led to the construction of hospitals, sen- iors homes, highways, provincial parks and the introduction of the province's first medical insur- ance plan. The legacy of his achievements were most notable during and after the flood of 1997, when he was applauded for the construction of the Red River Floodway, popularly known among Manitobans as Duff's Ditch. In his many years of dedicated service to Manitobans, Mr. Roblin served with integrity and compassion. In 2000 he received the prov- ince's highest distinction, the Order of Manitoba, which was fitting for a man who gave so much to this province.

I would like to thank Mr. Roblin for his commitment to Manitoba and congratulate him on receiving the Laureate of Excellence Award. Northern Tykes Day Care Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to report new funding for the community child care centre located in Snow Lake. The Northern Tykes Day Care in Snow Lake received $78,208 for 24 preschool and 4 infant spaces. Funding was announced last week by the Minister of Family Services and Housing (Mr. Caldwell) as part of the $1.5-million com- mitment to create 788 new child care spaces.

The new funding will go a long way to building better, more accessible child care pro- grams in the community of Snow Lake. This new support will develop options for families in the community as they look at balancing work and family life. The Northern Tykes Day Care was opened in May of this year and addresses an urgent need in the community. The centre's board of direc- tors and staff have worked hard to ensure high- quality child care is available. The centre has spaces for children from 12 weeks to 12 years. The centre is located in the Snow Lake Family Resource Centre.

Increasing numbers of rural and northern mothers of young children are working outside of the home. Many families today find that two incomes are essential to maintain a sufficient standard of living. For example, the number of two-parent families living below the poverty line would increase by 78 percent if working women in those families withdrew from the workforce. Our province cannot afford to miss oppor- tunities to develop rural and northern child care programs. By supporting families now as they raise their children, they will contribute to a healthy child, good outcomes and indeed will save money later.

Quality, accessible, affordable child care is an integral piece of the puzzle that

1052 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 22, 2003 will ensure all Manitoba children will become productive members of our workforce in the future. In the past four years, the Province has increased its commitment to early childhood development and families by a total of over $50 million. Of this amount, the federal government transferred $14.8 million in 2002-03 and will contribute $19.4 million next year. Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate Northern Tykes Day Care for being selected as one of the child care centres to receive new funding.

I think the announcement by the minis- ter shows that Manitoba's five-year plan for child care is working and is improving the quality of life for many Manitobans. Minister of Justice Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): This past week has left Manitobans wondering what has happened to their justice system. Unfortunately, it also left Manitobans wondering what has hap- pened to their Justice Minister (Mr. Mac- kintosh).

Today, the Department of Justice through Legal Aid is negotiating to give over $20 million of taxpayers' money to Hells Angels associates, over $20 million of taxpayers' money that was earned by the hard working people of Manitoba. While the Minister of Justice gets ready to write the cheque for the Hells Angels, we are left to wonder where else these millions of dollars could have gone. Could it have gone to help farmers who are affected by the BSE crisis? We heard today from the leader of our party and from the Member for Minnedosa (Mrs. Rowat) the suffering that is going on in our farm community.

We are left to wonder if that money would be better served than in the justice system. Last week we also heard that an accused child pornographer has been waiting for five years to be brought to justice. Could it go to the crumbling infrastructure in Manitoba? Manitobans say yes and I say yes but instead these millions of dollars are going to Hells Angels so they can get the best legal repre- sentation that Manitobans can afford. Where is the former Member for St. Johns, who once said and once cared about the appropriate resources and spending in the Justice Department?

Where is the common sense of this Minister of Justice? Mr. Speaker, on behalf of all Manitobans we ask: Where is the justice? South End United Titans Ms. Kerri Irvin-Ross (Fort Garry): Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the House today to recognize the recent success of the South End United Titans premier U-14 soccer team, which won the Manitoba Soccer Association's Pro- vincial Championship in Brandon, August 8, 9 nd 10. a South End United will probably represent the province of Manitoba in the 2003 under-14 girls Canadian Soccer Association National Club Championship in Halifax, October 9 to 13, where they will compete with teams from across the country. The South End United Titans U-14 soccer team is a member of the South End United Soccer Club and is a team of girls ages 13 to 14.

The girls team has been active in Winnipeg since 1986. Coaches Hugh Swan and Bill Warnick, took over coaching duties one year ago. The two have been coaching together for nine years. This will be the fifth time they will have coached a Manitoba team to the national championship. Reaching this point has required not only the dedication of talented coaches and managers but also the support of parents and volunteers. Most importantly, the devotion and sacrifice of these talented young athletes make achievements like this possible.

Activities like soccer are important to the development of young people, teaching them the value of teamwork and focus. South End United and teams like it could not continue without community support. The success of this team demonstrates the real benefit enjoyed by Mani- toba's young people when the community sup- ports their goals. The opportunity for this team to participate in the national championship is wonderful. They

September 22, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1053 will be joined in Halifax by the South End United Titans U-14 boys team representing Manitoba on the boys side. All of them will no doubt be great ambassadors of Manitoba, show- ing the rest of the country what Manitobans already know and that our young people have the talent and spirit to make them champions wherever they are. Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate these young people.

We should all be proud of this team and I invite the members of the House to commend the team on their achievements thus far, to wish them success in the national cham- pionship and to encourage continued community support for activities like soccer. MATTER OF GRIEVANCE Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Emerson, on a grievance? Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Yes. I rise today, Mr. Speaker, to grieve on behalf of all cattle and livestock producers in the province of Manitoba and their families.

What we have seen since May 20, since the U.S. border was closed in this province and how governments have reacted, I say reacted, to the crisis that has developed since the cattle exports have been terminated to the U.S. and other countries is nothing short of irresponsible gov- ernment. I believe what we have heard in this Legislature over the last couple of months and especially during the time we have been in ses- sion, through Question Period, is an indication of who truly understands the compassion that is required by government to deal with these kinds of matters if and when they arise.

It is clear this Government, this Premier (Mr. Doer) and this Cabinet have forgotten what their true role is, that is to serve, to serve the people and the needs of Manitobans. There are many, many people in this province who have spoken to me and my colleagues very passion- ately. Our leader took the time out of his busy

schedule over this past weekend to go visit with families, to stand or sit down with people and listen to what their needs are and how their families are not able to participate in community activities such as their normal 4H activities, such as their normal school activities, such as not being able to attend music classes when all others can. Yet we have a sector in society now that are the food produc ers, they are the only food producers we have in this province. They are the ones that are today not able to buy the food because they have no income and they have no source of income.

The Premier and his minister have said to them, we will lend you more money, we will put you deeper in debt and we will charge you interest on money you should have normally been able to receive out of the marketplace. The only reason they cannot derive any source of income from the marketplace is because they deal in cattle. These are farmers that raised the meat that families all over the world put on their tables for sustenance. It is one of the key sources of protein that people need to survive, and yet we say to our meat producers, our farmers, you do not matter in society anymore.

We do not care about you. * (14:30) There was such a simple approach, Mr. Speaker, that we have laid out time and time again to this Premier of our province who seems to have no compassion at all, nor does he understand the real issue. Nor does he want to understand. If he wanted to, if he wanted to truly understand, he would have gone out and visited these farmers. I have yet to hear that that Premier has taken the time to even go visit with one farm family. I have yet to hear that he has set foot on a family farm, on a livestock farm, on a beef farm.

Why is it that we have relegated, or that this Government has relegated our food producers, our primary sector food producers, to the lowest level in society by not allowing them an income to provide for their family? You see, there is such a simple remedy to this all and the grain sector. The federal and provincial governments through a cash advance system that was invented when the quotas were developed to give equal access to the grain sector and to the marketplace, and there was a cash advance system announced at the same time that would allow farmers to draw through that

1054 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 22, 2003 cash advance system on commodities they could not market because of no fault of their own, because of quota limitations, because of non- markets and other matters. They could then go to government, apply for a cash advance, which was given to them based on a portion of the value of the product they had in inventory. Yet this Government, this Minister of Agri- culture (Ms. Wowchuk), and I honestly do not know what she did in Swan River.

She says she farmed, but obviously that is questionable be- cause she has yet failed to recognize the mean- ness of the programs that she has announced and put forward. Instead of a simple method of pay- ing these farmers a cash advance which would come back to government the day they sold their cattle, automatically deducted from their cheque back into the Treasury, Mr. Doer, our Premier, has constantly said and I am sorry for mention- ing his name, our Premier has constantly said that we want to drain the rainy day fund. No such intent, Mr. Speaker. Never was that the intent.

The intent was for our Premier to understand that he should only use that as a temporary bank account where he would ta ke the money out of the rainy day fund, extend it as a cash advance to the farmers in recognition of their plight and say, manage your own business, go pay your bills, as if nothing else has happened. We recognize the dire straits you are in. We know what difficulty you live in, and we want you to send your chil- dren to school, and we want your children to participate in community activities, allow them to do that. Here is a cash advance. You can pay it back when you market your cattle.

Nobody is out any money except for the interest that the Premier would have had to give up for the investment that he made. An Honourable Member: A small price to pay. Mr. Penner: A very small price to pay. Instead, Mr. Speaker, we have seen day after day announcements. We asked the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) last week in Estimates and in concurrence: How much money have you announced? How many programs and how much money would that be if those programs had all been delivered? His response was $186 million. And none of them have worked. None of them. I attended two major functions this week- end.

Many cattle producers there in southeast Manitoba and the only industry that we have in southeast Manitoba is the cattle industry. There is no grain amount of any mention to be grown there because the soil just simply does not allow for that. So it is cattle country. It is pure and simple cattle country, and many of these cattle producers I asked how much money have you been able to access out of the $186-million program that the Province has announced. You know what their response was? None, except if we want to go borrow some more money and we are deep enough in debt now they said.

We do not want to borrow any more money. We do not need further debt. What we want is a cash dvance. a See, Mr. Speaker, this is something that good farm managers recognize as something that will work and they will tell you time and time again it would cost government virtually no money at all to do this.

As a matter of fact, the payback of that kind of short-term intervention through a cash advance system would pay back many, many times the cost that government would actually incur in lost interest because the seven times spin that you get out of those dollars invested in rural Manito ba would more than, far more than offset any costs that government would incur, and what is the liability. Virtually none. We know these cattle are going to at some point in time go to market. We know that but our Premier has yet to realize that.

Why his fear is there instead of announcing the provincial BSE programs, the $100-million low-interest loan program, the drought assistance program, which cannot work unless the farmer has money to buy the hay that he can transport and the Premier knows that he would not pay out that $12 million as long as he does not give the farmer enough cash to buy the feed so he can actually put it on the truck and transport it to his farm. He knows that, that the limitations within that transpor- tation program are so st rict that very few of those dollars will flow.

We have critiqued the Government's pro- grams every time they have announced them,

September 22, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1055 and we have told them why do you not come ask us. We will help to design programs that will work. We will do this. We have offered this time and time again, and we have said we will do it behind closed doors and it will be nonpolitical, no comments will be made after. But, no, no, he talks about all-party committees but only as long as those all-party committees do what he wants them to do. Mr. Speaker, our cattle industry, our live- stock industry, our bison industry, our elk indus- try, our sheep industry, our goat industry are far too important.

They are the true essence of diversification. They are what we worked for for 12 long years. For 12 long years, the Progressive Conservative government initiated diversifica- tion methods and mechanisms and they worked. We encouraged the increased production of beef. We encouraged the increased production of hogs and pork. We encouraged the development of a Maple Leaf pork plant in Brandon.

We en- couraged the introduction of industries all over this province, the smaller meat packers, through programs and government support, yet this Premier was a member of Cabinet when most of the large processing industry that we had in this province were done away with because the then- NDP government did not want to spend one single dime to support those industries to stay in Manitoba when they had to modernize their facilities. Swift's Canadian, Burns, Canada Pack- ers and a number of other smaller ones that had their homes here in this province left during the late seventies and the eighties.

By the time we took office in 1988, they were gone, and what has that done to this province's beef industry? It has virtually decimated it, Mr. Speaker. * (14:40) I say to you that if this Government would stop for a brief moment and do away with its pride of not having invented the cash advance program and adopt the cash advance program and use it today to give to farmers and say, here, here is the money, go manage your operations, send your kids to school, allow them to go to music, as the Kruk family has said so emo- tionally in their presentation. Please, Mr.

Speaker, maybe you could speak to the Premier, maybe you could speak to Cabinet and maybe you could suggest to them that what the Progressive Conservative caucus has put forward as a viable alternative to what they have tried to do is workable and can work. That is what people all over this province, including the AMM, the Keystone Ag Producers, the cattle producers and all other farm organizations have asked for and have begged for. Mr.

Speaker, I say to this Government: If you truly want to deal with the beef industry, if you truly want to remedy it, if you truly want to intervene in a meaningful way, put in place a cash advance system. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Arthur-Virden, on a grievance. Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): Mr. Speaker, I, too, would like to put some words of grievance on behalf of the constituents, Man- itoba's rural citizens in all of Manitoba, on the record today in regard to the BSE crisis.

The devastation that has affected farm families because of the drought and grasshoppers is just compounded by the seriousness of the whole situation of BSE. Mr. Conrad Santos, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair Mr. Deputy Speaker, today in Question Period, I was able to deliver a bit of compassion which I feel for the citizens out there today in regard to the misleadings of the present govern- ment and the way they are treating callously this whole situation of dire crisis in rural Manitoba. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, in all the years that I farmed in rural Manitoba, I have never, ever seen such a devastating situation as is before the cattle producers of Manitoba today, not only the cattle producers but those in bison, goats, elk and other sectors of the ruminant industry. All of them are impacted by the decision to close the American border because of one case of BSE that was found in western Canada. Mr. Deputy Speaker, even the Americans, Ms.

Veneman herself, the Minister of Agri- culture, the Trade Minister in the United States, indicated that she knows the safety of the Canadian product is unquestioned in relation to the quality of our product in Canada that these

1056 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 22, 2003 people are producing on their own farms, yet they have not seen fit to open the border. However, Mr. Deputy Speaker, they have opened the border to boxed beef, and we are seeing some progress, some slight progress made in that whole process that has allowed our packing industry to continue to export some product today. But that is small solace to the farmers and cattle producers and their families who have been basically bankrupted by the fact that they have not had a paycheque since May 20.

I challenge anybody in this House, anybody anywhere in Manitoba who is not in the farming community, what situation would your family be in today if you had not had a paycheque since May 20, and this Government makes light of it. In the two major papers that we have in this province today, they are in there with paid advertisements. It is unfortunate that one of them is on page 13, because it could almost be humorous if it was not so tragic. Mr. Deputy Speaker, this Government is advertising in our major city-wide newspapers.

Yes, they cover all of the citizens of Manitoba, but they are delivering a message in Manitoba, in the city of Winnipeg, of false hope. They are leading people to believe that they have put–and they have done it very stra- tegically. They have absolutely said there is over $180 million, and the Minister of Finance him- self has indicated in Estimates that there is about $186 million that they have made available to the farmers of Manitoba. That is a direct quote from the paper today.

Over 180 million in assist- ance is available to Manitoba producers through a number of programs and it goes on to name a few of them. The problem is how many dollars have they delivered on these programs to Manitoba farm- ers. It is an absolute insult to the integrity of our rural population to think that this Government is trying to hoodwink the citizens of Winnipeg into thinking that they are doing something for the rural areas, when actually most of this money is not flowing into the hands of the farmers at all. Mr. Deputy Speaker, if this was not such a serious situation, as I said, it could be humorous.

We heard today from the Leader of the Oppo- sition, the honourable Member for Kirkfield Park (Mr. Murray), the Member for Minnedosa (Mrs. Rowat) and the passion of other members in the House on our side of the House, talking about the Government putting its money where its mouth is. If it is down in Ottawa today, and I was there when they signed the agreement on Friday morning and I watched the federal Minister of Agriculture stand up and say to the citizens of Manitoba that it was great to have them on board now because the money would flow equally to all provinces in Canada all of a sudden. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, the Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk) in Manitoba led us to believe in this House that she had some special agreement. That was the only reason, with a gun to her head, that she signed on to the federal Agricultural Policy Framework. If that is the case, then why do you not come out with a half-page ad in tomorrow's paper after she gets back from Ottawa tonight, explaining how those programs work. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I am sure the farmers of Manitoba will be very interested to know that out of the $1.14 billion that the federal and provincial government announced for the use of Manitoba on Friday morning, that 22 percent of that, over $250 million of it, will be producers' own premiums, 22% unrecorded high premiums to belong to any kind of a program. Mr. Deputy Speaker, this Government would lead you to believe that they have found and dipped into the rainy day fund or dipped into, we know that they have dipped into Manitoba Hydro.

They have stolen from them, but nevertheless they have not put one dollar more on the table than they have put in the old CFIP agreement and the NISA program over the last three years in Manitoba. It is equivalent to $44 million, and that is just a continuation of the same program over the next five years that we have had. Mr. Speaker in the Chair Mr. Speaker, it is absolutely necessary that we have some kind of long-term agreement. I do not have any problem with a five-year

September 22, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1057 agreement. Let us put something on the table of significance for these farmers. These farmers are, as I have said, in the worst crisis in the history of the livestock industry of Manitoba. This Government, as well as the federal gov- ernment, the best they can do is say we have a few dollars for some kind of a disaster program based on BSE. They have forgotten about the people in the drought, impacted by the worst infestation of grasshoppers that this province has ever seen. There is nothing special on the table for any of these producers.

They are the ones who are extremely hurt out there today. That is why our Leader of the Opposition was out in the rural parts of Mani- toba over the weekend listening to the high school students who cannot access the things they would like to have to attend school with or any of their extracurricular activities. It is very hard on the mothers and fathers in these circum- stances. I, myself have learned over the weekend of three more long-standing farm couples in our region who are having personal difficulties keeping their marriages together. Mr.

Speaker, that is an absolute, it is hypo- crisy for the Premier to sit over there and laugh about the situation, even smile about the circum- stances raised in this House today when he does not really understand the need and the hurt in the households out there in Manitoba. I challenge him to get out in the rural areas and meet a few farmers, face to face, out in my area.

Come back out in the area of Hartney and Pipestone and Broomhill and challenge him to come out to some of those farms where the grasshoppers have stripped the corn, stripped the oats and stripped the alfalfa, where the first cut is still completely brown in spite of two inches of rain over the last two weeks. There is absolutely no regrowth in those areas. So the minister comes up with a plan to put transportation subsidies in place to move feed around this province when she absolutely missed the opportunity to put green feed in place on these farms back in the fi rst part of July.

If she had done something then, she could have saved herself $12 million. The feed would already be in those farms. Now she is out there with a $12- million program. * (14:50) What are we going to haul? For $12 million at 16.5 cents a pound for straw on a loaded kilometre, how many times are we going to haul this stuff around the province? This program does not do one thing to give those farmers the opportunity to buy a bale of hay or to buy a bale of straw, to put it on the trailer, to haul it 300 kilometres to the livestock operation that is going to need it in this province.

That is why I was so incensed in Question Period today. This Government is doing phan- tom accomplishments, trying to put a good-news story out there, $180 million, when they have not got a damn cent on the table. They have not got a cent on the table, not one red cent. Most of the cents that they handle are red too. Here we are out there with half-page documents, half-page ads, tens of thousands of dollars around the province of Manitoba. As well, I hear there are radio announcements out there today patting themselves on the back for the goodness that they are doing for the Manitoba farmers.

All I get is that there are more families going into divorce situations. There are more families that cannot put the extracurricular activities on the tables for their families. They cannot pay their Hydro bill. How in the blazes are they supposed to get food to these animals?

We are in a situation where these culled cows that the Government thinks is their only problem are just going to be a small portion of the problem that they have if they do not put a cash advance in the farmers' hands in Manitoba to make sure that they can compete when the minister continues to say the border might open in a couple of months. She repeated that to me in Estimates the other day. She has repeated it in phone calls to constituents in my constituency.

She has not got a clue when that border is going to open unless she knows more than the federal ministers of trade in both countries of Canada and the United States. Maybe she should go and talk to the Canadian Cattlemen's Association and find out what they are saying ab out how ineffective the

1058 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 22, 2003 programs are in Manitoba compared to our neighbours in Saskatchewan that are laughing at the programs that the NDP, that their own party, the NDP in Manitoba, are making available here in Manitoba as opposed to what is available even in the neighbouring province of Saskatchewan. They always like to refer to Alberta and Mr. Klein's oil and Mr. Klein's lumber. I will tell you, Mr. Klein also looks after the agriculture in that province. Now their own party in their own neighbouring province of Saskatchewan has way better programs and looking after.

They are laughing at this minister down in Ottawa. She signed onto this federal program. What kind of sidebar agreements, she may have a small one that she signed today, but the bottom line is the farmers do not have any money. They have not flowed any kind of cash to these people. They cut off the one good program that they may have had on the feeder side for $2 a day a head. They cut it off because, oh, the cattle producers overestimated the number of cattle that might be affected by this in Manitoba. What are they doing? Who do they listen to?

They have a Department of Agriculture that could have very well told them how many cattle are out there, but, no, no, no this was due to public pressure. Our Leader of the Opposition and our Member for Emerson (Mr. Penner) be- littled this Government into any kind of a meet- ing with the Manitoba Cattle Producers, but it took about 72 days. If they were not on the front page of the Winnipeg Free Press back in July, I doubt that this Government would have ever met with the cattle producers.

I know it is the only reason that the minister showed up in my hometown of Hartney at the first public meeting that she ever came to. She appeared at a few after that. I want to say that the feeder program that they had was so successful that it was cancelled. That would show you the need. The problem is they can- celled it after only about $6 million of the $10 million that they had on the table was used. They did not even wait for the whole $10-million program to get used. They cancelled the damn thing. Now they are on to a $15-million pro- gram, or a $12 million for drought assistance– Mr. Speaker: Order.

I would just like to remind all honourable members of parliamentary lan- guage. I would just like to caution all honourable members. Mr. Maguire: My apologies if I was a little carried away there. The Minister of Agriculture should have been at some of the meetings that I was at over the weekend with the farmers in the southwest portion of Manitoba. I was not even in the worst drought-stricken area. I was not in the worst areas that have been handled by this province, of the drought and the crisis in agri- culture that is out there because of the grass- hoppers. This Government thinks that things are rosy.

I tell them the story about the Commodity Exchange. As a former director of the Com- modity Exchange in the province of Manitoba, I can tell you that many days they have been accused of having perimeteritis themselves, of looking around Winnipeg and seeing if there is rain happening there that the market goes down when it could be drier than blazes from Portage la Prairie to the Rocky Mountains. Well, this Government treats rural Manitoba the same way.

They are looking around and there have been some good crops in Manitoba this year, but you have to get out into the rural areas to find out how bad it has been in some of those drought-stricken regions where, as I said to the Premier in Executive Council Estimates, there is more feed value on the carpet on this floor in this House than there is in some of the pastures west of Hartney and between there and Highway 83. And this Government does not care.

They have come out with a self-placating campaign advertising $180 million that they know full well there has been less than 10 percent of that money flow to the farmers of Manitoba as we stand here today. I think that is absolutely deplorable that this Government is out in the papers of Mani- toba, I mean if they were going to do something, it would have been a good idea to have at least put an ad in there to show how the program worked, how farmers could access it. Maybe even put an application form in the paper.

I do not care if it is a full page, you might actually get some results from the government of the day

September 22, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1059 if they–something simple for the farmers to fill out. Lord knows there have been examples that they could have used in this House if they go back and look at previous governments, previous Conservative governments in this House on the kinds of mechanisms and simple programs they can use to get money in the hands of farmers and deal with the complications of the formalities of filling out the programs later. We have had many examples of if farmers have been overpaid in this province, they will pay it back. They will pay it back.

So why does this Government not flow money to the farmers of Manitoba today, even top it up with some kind of a program for the drought-stricken regions of this province. Mr. Speaker: Order. Time has expired. The honourable Government House Leader, on House business. House Business Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, would you canvas the House to see if there is leave for the following Estimates sequence changes?

First, to move the Department of Education and Youth from 254 to the Chamber, with this change to apply per- manently; to move the Estimates of Status of Women from the Chamber into 254 to replace the Estimates of the Department of Education and Youth, with this change to apply perman- ently; in Room 255 for the Department of Con- servation to be moved ahead to the Department of Intergovernmental Affairs and for the Esti- mates for Labour and Immigration to be moved from the Chamber into 255 to follow Conser- vation and to be placed ahead of Intergovern- mental Affairs, with this change to apply per- manently.

Mr. Speaker: Is there leave for the following Estimates sequence changes?

To move the Department of Education and Youth from Room 254 to the Chamber, with this change to apply permanently; to move the Estimates of the Status of Women from the Chamber into Room 254 to replace the Estimates of the Department of Education and Youth, with this change to apply permanently; in Room 255 for the Department of Conservation to be moved ahead of the Depart- ment of Intergovernmental Affairs and for the Estimates for Labour and Immigration to be moved from the Chamber into Room 255 to follow Conservation and to be placed ahead of Intergovernmental Affairs, with this change to apply permanently.

Is there leave? [Agreed] ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS Mr. Speaker: The House will now resolve into Committee of Supply. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) STATUS OF WOMEN * (15:00) Mr. Chairperson (H arry Schellenberg): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now be considering the Estimates for Manitoba Status of Women. Does the honourable minister have an opening statement? Hon. Diane McGifford (Minister responsible for the Status of Women): Yes, Mr. Chair, I do. Mr. Chairperson: You have the floor. Ms. McGifford: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Let me begin by taking the opportunity to congratulate the member from Minnedosa on her election, her position as critic for the Status of Women and also, I believe, critic for Family Services and Housing. I know it is her first Estimates, so I am sure she will find the process interesting.

I know she has been very active in the House to date, so I am sure she will be active here as well. I am pleased to present the Estimates for the Status of Women for the fiscal year 2003-2004. The Status of Women includes both the Mani- toba Women's Directorate and the Manitoba Women's Advisory Council. The Women's Di- rectorate works within government to influence decision making through research support,

1060 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 22, 2003 policy development and evaluation of govern- ment programs, policies and legislation to deter- mine their impact on women. The directorate's work is concentrated in four priority areas: economic security, violence, women's health and gender-inclusive analysis. A number of initiatives have been undertaken in support of these priority areas. The statistical profile of women developed by the directorate includes data on women's family status, income, labour force participation, work and family responsibilities, health and justice issues.

The profile will aid in developing policies that better serve the needs of women. Let me add par- enthetically here, if the member would like a copy of that publication, we would be very pleased to pass it along. Efforts continue to institutionalize Power Up, the computer literacy training program for women in partnership with adult learning cen- tres, school divisions and colleges throughout the province. Trade Up to Your Future encour- ages women to expand their career horizons to include the skilled trades and prepares them for work in an industrial setting.

The directorate administers the Training for Tomorrow Scholarship Awards and grants 50 $1,000 scholarships to women entering com- munity college diploma programs in math, sci- ence and technology-related fields. The directorate is active in interdepartmental committees such as the Family Violence Court Steering Committee, Family Violence Preven- tion and a number of the Healthy Child working groups. The Women's Directorate offers its expertise to departments in carrying out gender analysis of proposed programs and services. Mr.

Chairperson, at the national level, the directorate is active in collaborative work to promote and strengthen women's equality. Most recently, in partnershi p with the Conference Board of Canada, the Federal-Provincial Ter- ritorial Forum developed a business case tar- geted to the industrial sector, showing how their skilled worker shortages could be addressed through efforts to attract women. Work will con- tinue locally to promote this initiative. Mr. Chairperson, the issue of domestic violence has been a high priority for the national forum.

On December 6 last year, ministers res- ponsible for the Status of Women released Assessing Violence Against Women: A Statistical Profile. The information in this document will serve as a valuable tool in assessing the effec- tiveness of legislation, policies and programs designed to eliminate violence against women. Mr. Chair, this concludes my remarks on the Manitoba Women's Directorate, and I now turn to the Advisory Council on the Status of Wo- men.

The Manitoba Women's Advisory Council is an arm's-length body charged by legislation to, and here I quote, "advise the Government of Manitoba on matters related to the achievement of full and equal participation of women in society." The Advisory Council is comprised of 13 members who are representative of Mani- toba's diverse population base and geographic distribution. Kim Claire, chairperson since January 3, 2000, resigned recently to complete her doc- torate degree.

I wish to thank Kim for her stew- ardship and dedication to improving the lives of women during her tenure as the council's chair- person, as well as throughout her 25 years of community involvement. Her successor is soon to be chosen. The Advisory Council provided information and recommendations on a wide spectrum of issues ranging from eating disorders to urban development and the changing profile and gen- der dimensions of HIV to female gang asso- ciation. The underlying theme of the council's advice reiterated the need to incorporate gender and diversity analysis in the development of programs and policies.

The Government sought the council's input on such matters as the program needs of incar- cerated women and the pr oposed amendments to The Domestic Violence and Stalking Prevention, Protection, and Compensation Act. Mr. Chairperson, the council works to build strategic partnerships among women's groups, community organizations and relevant govern- ment departments. The round table discussion and resource-sharing sessions on violence-

September 22, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1061 prevention programs and services for girls and young women was established three years ago and participation has almost doubled since its inception. On a national scale, the council has played a pivotal role in the formalization of the Coalition of Provincial and Territorial Advisory Councils as a venue to collaborate on national issues such as employment equity, child support, custody and access, and recently the need for a renewed Royal Commission on the Status of Women. Mr.

Chairperson, the council hosted monthly community information sessions on such topics as the correlation between poverty and health, mother work and the law, prevention of sexual exploitation for at-risk youth, and older women and AIDS. Commemorative events were held to mark the anniversary date of the Montréal Massacre and International Women's Day. The council provided administrative support to num- erous women's organizations and participated in many of their activities.

The council also acted as a referral base and provided an interactive Web base and on-site library resource and weekly calendar of even ts and information of interest to women and their families. A second printing of the sixth edition of council's Parenting On Your Own: A Handbook for One Parent Families was published in partnership with the Manitoba Women's Direc- torate and Healthy Child Manitoba. This edition has been distributed to more than 20 000 single parents and service providers. It was also posted on the council's Web site. The Web site had 10 460 visitors during the first five months of 2003.

As a result, there has been a dramatic increase in requests for information via this electronic format, as well as increased inter- action generally between the council and the ommunity throughout the last fiscal year. c * (15:10) Council's direction will be informed and guided by its members and by the women throughout the province who individually or as participants in women's organizations bring for- ward their concerns to the council. The council will continue to act as a two-way conduit be- tween government and the community by giving voice to women's concerns and providing advice to government.

This process will facilitate the ongoing development of gender-sensitive poli- cies and programs and give women stronger voices in the legislative process. I am proud of the work of both the Women's Directorate and the Advisory Council. They have worked to inform government on issues of concern to women. I know that both organiza- tions will continue to work towards that goal, the goal of ensuring equal participation by women in all aspects of our society. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I was speaking when the page brought the coffee, so I just wanted to thank her for bringing me my coffee too. Mr.

Chairperson: Does the Official Opposition critic, the honourable Member for Minnedosa (Mrs. Rowat), have any opening comments? Mrs. Leanne Ro wat (Minnedosa): Very short, Mr. Chair. I am honoured to be given the critic role for the Status of Women. I thank the minis- ter for her kind words and comments in wel- coming me to the process. I have had a great interest in all aspects of this portfolio and would have enjoyed spending several hours learning of the minister's expec- tations and plans for the upcoming year or years, finding out what her priorities are and how these priorities would be achieved.

However, we are limited, so I will spend my time wisely and do follow-up on areas outside of this process that I feel passionate about. I would like to ask the Chair if we could do a global analysis. Mr. Chairperson: We thank the critic from the Official Opposition for those remarks. Is there leave to have a global discussion on this topic? [Agreed] Before we start our discussion, under Man- itoba practice, debate on the minister's salary is traditionally the last item considered for a department in Committee of Supply. Accord- ingly, we shall now defer consideration of line item 22.1.(

a) and proceed with consideration of the remaining items referenced in Resolution 2.1. 2 At this time we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table. We ask that the minister introduce the staff in attendance.

1062 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 22, 2003 Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, if I might introduce he staff? t Mr. Chairperson: Yes, introduce the staff, lease. p Ms. McGifford: On my immediate left is Theresa Harvey Pruden, who is the ADM for the Women's Directorate and the Status of Women. Sitting beside her is Ruth Mitchell, who is Acting Policy Manager. Ruth is a former em- ployee. One of our employees is dealing with some health issues, and so Ruth is filling in for that woman.

Then on Ruth's left is Sue Barnsley, who is the Executive Director of the Manitoba Women's Advisory Council; and on Sue's left is Gerri Thorsteinson, who is the policy analyst with the Advisory Council. Mr. Chairperson: I thank you for those intro- ductions. The floor is now open for questions. Mrs. Rowat: I would like to just get on the record a listing of the specific staff in the minister's office and the deputy minister's office, please, names and employment status and positions. Ms. McGifford: I want to inform the member that there is not a Deputy Minister for the Status of Women.

There has always been, I think, in the history of the Status of Women in this province an assistant deputy minister. The per- sons that I have introduced, first of all, Theresa Harvey Pruden is the assistant deputy minister, and as I said, Ruth Mitchell is acting as the policy manager, and then we have Sue Barnsley, who is the Executive Director of the Manitoba Women's Advisory Council. The member will remember from my remarks that the chair of the Advisory Council has resigned her position. She did resign her position, I believe, on July 15, and we are currently looking to reappoint that person.

The other persons who work in the Advisory Council are Norma Jean Ciglar, who is an administrative assistant; policy analyst Betty Owen, who is on leave and, hence, we have Gerri Thorsteinson. Now, Betty Owen is not really on leave, she is seconded to Justice, let me correct myself, and then an administrative assistant named Lynda Saelens. So those are the staff in the Advisory Council. As far as staff in my office, I do not have a specific staffperson designated for the Status of Women.

I have one special assistant who works with me in Education and with Seniors, but my executive assistant, Doreen Wilson, works with me on the Status of Women as part of her as- signment. I hope that was clear. Mrs. Rowat: Mr. Chair, who is your special adviser? Did you indicate the individual's name? Ms. McGifford: I do not have a special adviser. I have a special assistant who works with me in my capacity as Minister of Advanced Education and Training and Seniors. She does not work with me in the Status of Women, but her name is Susan McMurrich if you are interested in knowing. Mrs. Rowat: Mr.

Chair, the role and mandate of the Women's Directorate, I guess I would just like some background on that and also if that has changed or evolved over the past year under the ministers responsible. Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, I think that the role and mandate of the Women's Directorate, and I am putting it very basically right now, is to provide policy advice to government. In my remarks I mentioned four things: policy advice, advice on programs, gender analysis on pieces of legislation, et cetera.

The Women's Directorate also does work on economic security, and I am missing one thing out of the four, health and violence issues. In fact, I am sure we will get to them a little later. Mrs. Rowat: Mr. Chair, I just need some clarification on the Wo men's Advisory Council and what their role and mandate is and how that fits with the directorate. Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, my staffperson, you can see, has just given me some information. It is quite lengthy, so I think I will summarize it and say that the Advisory Council consists of a council of women appointed by government.

As you will remember, I think, from my intro- ductory remarks, I said that it is a council that reflects the geographical diversity of our province, that reflects the ethnic diversity of our province, so that we have people from all over

September 22, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1063 and people from the different groups that comprise the province. The Advisory Council tends to work more with the community. I suppose you could say, in a way, it is the eyes and ears of the minister in the community, so it interfaces with many com- munity groups. At least sometimes, meets out in communities outside of Winnipeg and therefore is in a position to hear the concerns that mem- bers bring to the council. The council, in turn, formulates papers and positions which becomes advice to the minister. Mrs. Rowat: Mr.

Chair, you indicated that there is representation on the council from various sectors and various regions of the province. I was wondering if you would be able to share with me who is represented on this council. Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, I have a list. As I said, the former chair, Kimberley Anne Clare is no longer with us and we will be replacing that position very soon. Gisèle Barnabé from St. Agathe; Ila Bussidor fro m Tadoule Lake; Marie Fleury from Grand Rapids; Nahanni Fontaine, Winnipeg; Keith Louise Fulton. Keith is not with us. Keith has left the council.

Esther Fyk from Garland; Bonnie Hoffer Steiman, Winnipeg. I have a new list. I had mentioned Ila Bussidor, Tadoule Lake; Nahanni Fontaine of Winnipeg; Esther Fyk, Garland; Bonnie Hoffer Steimanof Winnipeg; Elaine Huberdeau of Winnipeg; Mary-Anne Kandrack, Winnipeg; Molly McCracken, Winnipeg; Christine Nnadi of Winnipeg; Margaret Platte, Winnipeg; Gisèle Saurette Roch of Winnipeg; Brenda Sevcik, Winnipeg; Rae Smith of Brandon; and Barbara Toews of Lowe Farm. We are willing to forward a list to the member if that would be helpful to her. Mrs. Rowat: Mr. Chair, that would be helpful.

I would appreciate a copy of that list. You had indicated that the chair had resigned. Would there be an indication or a reason for her resignation? Ms. McGifford: Actually, the chair's ap- pointment was up in January, and she agreed to stay on for a while.

She is currently in the throes of writing her PhD dissertation, and she found that her regular employment coupled with working on the Advisory Council was getting in the way of her writing of her dissertation, so she made a decision to concentrate on the dis- sertation, to take a leave from her regular em- ployment and devote the next while to writing it. * (15:20) Mrs. Rowat: When will the chair position be filled? Are you saying there is somebody acting in it at this present time or not? Ms. McGifford: No, I believe the legislation does not allow us to appoint an acting chair.

We are going to be going forward, I think, in the very near future. There is a process for ap- pointing members which is very lengthy, but I could explain it to the member if she would like another time. We will be going forward very soon, I think in the next couple of weeks and I do have a person in mind for the chair. Mrs. Rowat: I was reviewing past Estimates and you had shared four goals and you shared them again today. I was thinking that I would really maybe just focus my questions in those four categories and goals.

The economic self-sufficiency area which was used as a goal under the previous Estimates, you had talked about Planting the Seed confer- ence on economic development for Aboriginal women, which was hosted in '02. I was wondering: Is there anywhere where I would be able to access the results from that conference? Ms. McGifford: I am advised by staff that we have the proceedings of that conference. I would be pleased to share them with the member. Mrs. Rowat: Mr. Chair, was there a com- munications plan developed?

That was indicated in some correspondence that I had read that there was going to be some type of a plan developed to connect with the Aboriginal women's com- munity. I wanted to know if there was a follow- up on that?

1064 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 22, 2003 Ms. McGifford: My staff think there might be a point of confusion here. They are not sure that that referred to them. Mrs. Rowat: Mr. Chair, it was in the Estimates. The minister had indicated that her department, the directorate, would be putting together a communications plan from that workshop or conference and presented. Ms. McGifford: It is clear now what you are referring to.

Yes, we shared the proceedings from the conference with everyone who attended it, with other women's groups that were inter- ested in the proceedings, and the relevant departments of government. Mrs. Rowat: In my most recent former life, I was an economic development officer, a com- munity resource person. I guess an area that was of interest to me and our communities was im- migrant women and the support programs that would be available for them. I just wanted to know if the directorate or the Women's Advisory Council have done some work in this area. If so, what has been completed to date? Ms.

McGifford: I am advised that we liaise with the immigration and settlement branch, which is run from Labour and Immigration. We advise them of special concerns that we are aware of. Again, as I explained in my opening remarks, and as I am sure the member understands, the Status of Women provides advice, policies, et cetera. We do not really run programs. What we really do is provide advice and ideas to whether departments and that is one of them. Mrs. Rowat: Mr. Chair, is there a working committee that the Women's Directorate would be a part of or a resource to? Ms.

McGifford: Yes, there is an interdepart- mental committee from immigration and settle- ment. We have a position on that departmental group. Mrs. Rowat: The women's Mentorship Pro- gram, what is the status of that? Do you have some statistical information on the numbers who have participated and the success rate factors? Ms. McGifford: Apparently, we devolved the mentorship program to become part of the Canada-Manitoba Business resource centre, which is a link to ITM. Mrs. Rowat: Mr. Chair, Trade Up To Your Future, that program and the connection to the industrial sector.

I understand that in some of the rural communities the apprenticeship ratios are becoming a bit of an issue with some of the people who have worked with the programs in the past, and I am wondering if the directorate has found this a red flag or an issue at all and if they are working with the community in addressing some of that. Ms. McGifford: I am wondering if the member is referring to the relationship or the ratio of apprentices to journeypersons, if that is– Mrs. Rowat: Yes. Ms.

McGifford: I am told that in the electrical field it was a problem, and for that reason we have switched to electronics, machining and welding where it is not a problem. Mrs. Rowat: Okay, I will leave on that. Mr. Chair, the next goal or area that I want to ask some questions, too, is the violence-free environment for women and children. You had touched on a round table process that has been going on for several years, and I am wanting to know where you would have hosted some of these round tables over the past year and if the results of those round tables would be available. Ms.

McGifford: Yes, staff is just looking for the information that you are requesting. I did want to say that it is work that has been done through the Advisory Council. Apparently, the council has facilitated eight discussion and information- sharing groups among relevant service providers, researchers, policymakers, women's organizations working on the common goal of preventing violence against girls. You had asked where those round tables had taken place. They have all taken place in Winnipeg but I see at different venues in Winni- peg. I think the first one actually took place in

September 22, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1065 conjunction with the LEAF breakfast last year. [interjection] No? A couple of years ago, okay. The second session concerned Aboriginal women and the child welfare services and Abo- riginal communities. The third was held along with the status of the health. you know, they all took place in Winnipeg and I thought I was going to find out exactly where, but they took place at different venues.

They seem to have different themes: one was involving Aboriginal people; one was involving education; one in- volved the police and sex crime units; one involved pornography and the Internet presen- tation, I think, which is quite famous called Beyond Borders. Another featured Senator Landon Pearson, of course, who is internationally known for her work. Another one involved the Human Rights Commission. I think peace was its theme. Another one took place at IKWE which had to do with Aboriginal gang initiatives.

Then, the most recent, June 17, 2003, featured presen- tations by Child Find Manitoba, Women's Health Clinic, New Waves and a lot of women's organizations. It took place in Winnipeg at 155 Carlton which, of course, is the office of the Advisory Council. Mrs. Rowat: Mr. Chair, I was wondering if in the next year they would be considering offering some of these workshops or round tables, I guess, in rural or northern Manitoba.

I know that sitting on several committees, economic devel- opment boards, parent advisory councils, learn- ing for life initiatives, that a lot of those topics would be of great interest to people who live outside of the boundaries of Winnipeg. Is that a consideration in the future? Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, the premise of the round tables was to bring together women's groups, experts in the field, so that they could share ideas and expertise. Presumably that way it could be disseminated through the province.

We do not have the resources, the financial resources to go out into the communities and do this work in all the communities. Now, having said that, I know that the Advisory Council has been very supportive in the health consultations that we have done out of town, in Thompson and Flin Flon, Brandon, Dauphin and one more, Lac du Bonnet. Issues of violence came up, I can assure you, and I think you have just hit the nail on the head. Women are so glad to see a government representative there. They turn up an d talk about all their issues, because in a way everything kind of works together.

So, I am sorry, the answer is that we will not be holding those workshops, those round tables in the various communities. We do not have the resources. We think that the work that we have been doing is a beginning step. It is a way of disseminating to communities, a kind of preparing, not exactly tr aining the trainer but that sort of theory behind it. Mrs. Rowat: Mr. Chair, if it is train the trainer and sharing with the professionals in the areas. I am encouraging the minister to ensure that repre- sentation could be made available for individuals in the rural and northern communities to attend these workshops.

It may already be happening, but I would encourage her to provide that sup- port. Ms. McGifford: One of our ways of doing that is through our council members who are from rural or northern commu nities, so that they attend the workshops, the round tables, pardon me. I should not call them workshops because they are round tables. Then they do take it back to the community. * (15:30) Mrs. Rowat: In the spring of 2003, a women's justice clinic was held, or was indicated that it would be held. Where is this at and what is the expected results? I am curious to learn more about that. Ms.

McGifford: I am advised that the justice clinic does not relate to either the Advisory Council, or at least it was not an initiative of the Advisory Council or the Women's Directorate. Staff think it might have been an initiative of the Justice Minister who put forth the idea of a one- stop shopping resource for women to have information on all their legal needs, I suppose, in issues like violence or family break up.

1066 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 22, 2003 For example, if a woman was in a violent situation she might need to find a place to live, to relocate, et cetera. So the Justice Minister was looking to set up this kind of facility. It was not our initiative, although we are on the committee. An Honourable Member: You are on the committee. Ms. McGifford: Yes. Mrs. Rowat: Mr. Chair, a topic of interest to me is child prostitution. I was just wondering if your department is aware of this moving into Child and Family Services.

Being the Women's Direc- torate, I was just wondering if there was any role you had played in this issue and in providing direction on it. Ms. McGifford: I think the member is probably referring to an initiative of the Healthy Child Committee of Cabinet. It is a multi-jurisdictional implementation team, which was established to implement a strategy to address the issue of the sexual exploitation of children and youth. The committee has representatives from across gov- ernment, including Justice, Family Services and Housing, Health, Education and Aboriginal and Northern Affairs. It has quite some detailed plans.

I do not know whether the member would like me to go into them or whether she would like to defer this discussion till the Minister of Family Services and Housing (Mr. Caldwell) is with her. Mrs. Rowat: I can defer this an d also discuss it with Healthy Child as well. That is fine. In the notes I have been reviewing I came across a national project that I was fairly inter- ested in. It was developing indicators to help track progress in eliminating violence against women.

I just wanted to know if she could pro- vide the status of this and the expected results, giving me an indication of where they are at now and if there are any results that have come forward. Ms. McGifford: I know what the member is talking about because it has been very much a part of our discussions at the federal, provincial and territorial meetings for the Status of Women. Mr. Chairperson, the statistical profile was launched on December 6, '03, I think– [inter- jection] '02, thank you. Right, we are not at '03 yet. Sometimes it feels like we are but we are not. Mr.

Chairperson, what we have identified are some data gaps, some information we are finding it very difficult to obtain, which would be really helpful in understanding more about violence. Consequently, I have written to Stats Canada and I believe Jean Augustine, the federal minister, has written to Stats Canada, asking that they include certain questions in the next census in the general social survey. If that is done that will enable us to develop the statistical profile even further than we have been able to do and address these gaps. If I might, Mr.

Chair, is there some infor- mation that you could share with the member at this point. Ms. McGifford: The member just showed us a book. That is the provincial profile. There is a federal one. We would be happy to share that piece of information with the member too. * (15:40) Mrs. Rowat: Mr. Chair, I would appreciate a copy of The Canadian. I just want to put on record and I want to know if there is any reporting–I know that you do not run programs, but just some background on the monitoring and rating of violent video games.

I just want to know if there is any back- ground or assistance being provided in research- ing this. Ms. McGifford: I am glad that the member brought up that issue. It is one that is near and dear to my personal heart. As the former Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism, it is in that department that the classification of films resides. We actually under current statutes do have legislated authority to classify video games. The problem is in the immense numbers and complexities and whatnot of classifying these along with all kinds of other complexities like bootleg ones and all this sort of thing.

I have just been given some information that says that we are trying to do something

September 22, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1067 nationally. Now I remember this from my old stint that the chairs of the film classification boards are called different things in different provinces. I do not think that they are always called chairs and they are not all called film classification boards–have this item on their agenda, and they are con cerned about it. I think we are working towards something. One of the recommendations is the enforcement of the ESRB rating, but we are not there yet. I am glad you brought it up, it is something that concerns me greatly.

I find video games absolutely shock- ing, many of them. Mrs. Rowat: Women's health issues, Mr. Chair, I would like to know what the role is of the Status of Women in support taken with regard to the BSE issue and crisis in rural Manitoba. I want to know what they are providing in a role. Ms. McGifford: I have been told that to date what the department has done is been in touch with the Ag people at the Home Economics department and also has been in touch with folks who staff the rura l stress line and have been providing input and advice.

Most of the work that we have done with health as of recently has related to the health consultations that I mentioned or alluded to earlier throughout Manitoba. I am collecting information for the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) when it comes to those matters of specific health issues for women. Mrs. Rowat: Mr. Chair, I am an advocate of population health and understanding the cor- relation between health and poverty or crises, financial situations. I strongly encourage the Women's Directorate and the Advisory Council to take a strong, active role in this situation. It is becoming very, very serious.

I do know that the Ag offices I was meeting with in the Southwest Region just on Friday are strapped for resources, strapped for individuals to help in this area. Any resource or assistance you can provide in that area I would greatly appreciate. Ms. McGifford: I thank the member for her ad- vice and also suggest to her that my office is always open for people who would find it helpful perhaps to phone and receive advice, get direction as far as resources, et cetera. I thank you for your words. Mrs.

Rowat: I just to put on the record as well that even through our offices in the constituency, my office staff are being trained to handle crisis calls. Any information that you can share–and I have also indicated that through Ag and Health we would welcome and appreciate, because, as I indicated, my staff people are not trained in crisis situations or calls. Anything that you can do to help in that area would be greatly appre- ciated, especially when th e majority of calls that we have been getting lately have been women and children. Ms.

McGifford: I was going to say that we do have members from the agricultural community on our Advisory Council. I am sure that those issues will emerge when we have meetings in the fall. Mr. Chair, we as the department do not have the expertise in educating people.

I know, for example, my office staff, and I am moving away from the Status of Women in a sense now, but just to share this information with you, my constituency people have availed themselves of the training at Klinic, where there is some training for crisis people, but I realize that that is very difficult for people who come from your area in Minnedosa. Mrs. Rowat: I appreciate the minister's com- ments. Actually, it would help some of my constituency people who live in rural Manitoba who do not know about the resources or the assistance programs that are available.

I guess I am just putting the word out that if there is any type of opportunity for information it would be greatly appreciated. Ms. McGifford: Yes, I am advised by my staff that they could certainl y do any referral if any- one were to call. I kind of have the feeling that Klinic, for example, will often go out into com- munities. My daughter worked there for years, will often go out into communities and do work in communities for people, so just an idea, whilst we are talking. Mrs. Rowat: Okay, I think that would be very useful for the groups that I had indicated.

Also the farm women's groups would probably find this information useful because they are right in the industry. I thank you for that.

1068 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 22, 2003 As I am a new MLA, I am still trying to get a handle on the Healthy Child component. The program is available in our areas. I just want to know what the role of the Women's Directorate or the council is with the healthy communities. Do they sit on the working committees, and what type of working committees would they be associated with? * (15:50) Ms. McGifford: Well, the Minister for the Status of Women was invited to be part of the Healthy Child committee because she was the Minister for the Status of Women.

We know that the health of our children is really affected by their moms. Theresa Harvey Pruden, who is the ADM for the Status of Women, sits on the deputy minister's committee. We have staff- persons on all the working groups of Healthy Child. I think we are well represented in the work of Healthy Child. Mrs. Rowat: Another initiative, Neighbour- hoods Alive!, which is an urban initiative sup- porting communities in rebuilding and promotes safe neighbourhoods and affordable housing, I just wanted to know what the status of the role of the directorate would be on that committee? Ms.

McGifford: We are kept apprised of Neighbourhoods Alive!, and we are also part of the working group which is looking at renego- tiating the new urban development agreement. I wanted to point out that Parenting on Your Own, which is a publication of the Advisory Council, is also supported by Healthy Child. I cannot remember how much money they put into it, but $15,000 into its publication. It is very popular of course among single parents, prob- ably other parents too in Manitoba and service providers, and it is available on the Internet. It does not address itself to crises per se.

I do not know whether there is any information there that would be helpful to some of the people we were speaking about earlier. It is more single parent- ing, but it is also living in crisis, to some degree, living with difficulties, anyway. Mrs. Rowat: That publication would be avail- able through the social work or public health within the communities, is that where you would access that publication, other than on the net? Ms. McGifford: It is obtainable through the Advisory Council's office. It is also available widely to government offices. I think we send a copy to every MLA.

So it is available at con- stituency offices. You may get one. It is also available to service providers. Mrs. Rowat: I am looking forward to a copy of the publication. Gender-inclusive analysis, you were indi- cating that there is a statistical profile on women. I have the provincial; you are going to get me the federal. I just wanted to touch base on the increase in violence against women and wanting to discuss that a little better just to what role you would have had with Justice and trying to address some of the issues on increased vio- lence? Ms.

McGifford: Once again, as the former director of the Women's Resource Centre, you have certainly hit on an issue that is really important to me and obviously important to all of us as women. My department has been extremely active in Family Violence Court at the founding stages and indeed as the court has proceeded. It is, of course, very important because I think we have improved our record in dealing with family violence in a timely manner which is always better than its taking a long time to be drawn out. I am told that there is an increase in the incidences of violence.

There is also statistical evidence that women in Manitoba are far more likely than women in other provinces to report violence to the police. I am assuming this is because we have had some very successful public awareness programs, both under your government and under our Government. I think we are recogn ized for the work we have done in family violence. We are recognized as a province having one of the best overall programs in the country. I am just told that the dedicated Family Violence Court is the model for Canada.

September 22, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1069 One of the pieces of good news is that spousal homicides are actually on the decrease. So, while there appear to be more incidences of family violence, it could well be that it is being reported more. It could be that there is not more. It could be a question of reporting it. I think that we in Manitoba, and I include the former government as well as our Govern- ment, have done good work in this area. Mrs. Rowat: Mr. Chairperson, I have one question regarding a subappropriation in the Women's Advisory Council under Other Expen- ditures.

The category or the area is Other Opera- ting. It is 26.1 percent. It is about 25 percent of the budget. I was just wondering what that would entail, what that would include. Ms. McGifford: Yes, Mr. Chair, I believe the member's question was under the Manitoba Women's Advisory Council. She had a question about Other Operating under Other Expendi- tures. I think it is on page 15. I am told that Other Operating includes desktop management, food, beverages, Internet fees, subscriptions, library resources, attendance at conferences, employee training and incre- mental allowances.

All of those things are in- luded under that category. c Mrs. Rowat: Thank you. Mr. Chairperson: Any further questions? Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Just very quickly, the Women's Advisory Council, how is it determined for the appointments? Are they based on specific positions that they hold throughout the province, or is it just strictly who the Government feels is the most appropriate person to be appointed to the council? Ms. McGifford: As I was saying earlier, the Women's Advisory Council is a council ap- pointed by government.

On that council, we endeavor to represent the racial, the ethnic and the geographical diversity of our province, as well as young women and older women and middle-aged women. So, Mr. Chair, I guess to answer the mem- ber's question, we try to represent the province in every possible way, but government does make the appointments. Mr. Lamoureux: So, Mr. Chairperson, there are no groups or associations that are out in Man- itoba from which representation is taken. It is just strictly ministerial appointment as to who they feel is the most appropriate person. Ms.

McGifford: No, there are no groups, although that is something that we pay attention to. It really, I think, depends on the minister. Various ministers probably have different atti- tudes towards who their selections will be. One of my goals with the council was to make sure that women of colour and Aboriginal women were represented on the council. I am also concerned that rural women be represented on the council and, well, I suppose immigrant women. Mr.

Lamoureux: I guess the final question would be: Does the minister or could the minis- ter acknowledge how many, what the actual size, not the individuals, how many people sit on that particular council and how many people who are currently on that council would have served anytime on that council prior to her Government taking office in '99? Ms. McGifford: The number of women, it is determined by legislation from eight to eighteen.

I am currently advised that the areas that are represented or the kinds of women with different things that they bring to the council is that we have Aboriginal women, we have women from the agricultural community, Francophone com- munity, business community, health, medical and research communities, social services, edu- cation, we have seniors, volunteer community, visible minorities and the disability community. Now, as to whether there are any members who were there when we came to government in '99, you have to understand that a member can only serve for two terms of two years.

So the answer to your question would be that there has been turnover. I do not think there are any left but I do want to assure the member that certainly my attitude to members was not that we should come in and get rid of anybody who had been there before and that is not what we did.

1070 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA September 22, 2003 * (16:00) Mrs. Rowat: I just wanted to go back to something that is sort of an interest to me and I am sure to the minister, voting trends. I just wanted to know if there was any work being done on determining the interest in working with women to ensure that they do come out to vote, workshops or some interest. Ms. McGifford: Well, last year I worked with our federal member, Anita Neville, on getting women to run for politics. As far as getting women to come out and vote, well, like the member opposite, I go door to door and

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	38-1-10
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	38th 1st hansardpdf 10.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	ec431fd696319dfe844b490c9e90b55dc39202b3

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