Manitoba Hansard — 6 May 1977 (Sitting 55A, 30th Legislature, 4th Session)

30-4-55a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 FOURTH SESSION- THIRTIETH LEGISLATURE of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 26 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Peter Fox Speaker VOL. XXIV No.SSA FRIDAY, MAY 6, 1977 10:00 a.m. Printed by P.N. Crosbie- Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba

Friday, May 6, 1977 TIME: 10:00 a.m. OPEN ING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Honourable Peter Fox (Kildonan): Before we proceed, I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery where we have 40 students Grade 5 and 6 standing of the Ste. Annes School. These students are under the direction of Mrs. Bonnin and Sister Cloutier. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for La Verendrye. We also have 34 visiting students from the Milan Senior High School of Milan, Minnesota under the direction of Mr. Lyle Larson.

We have 19 Grade 5 students from Balmoral Hall under the direction of Mrs. Klymkiw. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Wolseley. We have 30 students Grade 6 standing of the Lord Roberts School under the direction of Mr. Bill Holbrow and Mrs. Setter. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Osborne, the Minister of Education. On behalf of all the honourable members, we welcome you here this morning.

Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees; Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports; Notices of Motion. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HONO URABLE SIDNEY GREEN' Minister of Mines, Resources and Environmental Management (lnkster), on behalf of the Honourable Attorney-General, Howard Pawley (Selkirk), introduced Bill (No. 72)

an Act to amend Various Acts Relating to Marital Property. MR. WILLIAM JENKINS (Logan) introduced Bill (No. 73)

an Act to amend

An Act to Incorporate the Sinking Fund Trustees of The Winnipeg School Division No. 1. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. STERLING LYON (Souris-Killarney): Mr. Speaker, a question to the Acting Premier or the Minister of Mines with respect to the receipt of the Berger Report on the Mackenzie Valley Pipe Line. l wonder if either Minister could use their good offices to ensure that members of the House receive copies of that Report which I realize is under the federal jurisdiction, as soon as possible. I am sure the Ministers have made arrangement s for their own offices.

I was wondering if they could do that for other members of the Legislature as well. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HONO URABLE RUSSELL PAULLEY (Transcona): I think it would only be proper, Mr. Speaker, for me to say first of all, I am not knowledgeable as to whether or not we have received the report. (In terjection)- My honourable friend says .. . on Monday or last Monday? MR. LYON: To be released on Monday, that's my understanding, Mr. Speaker. MR. PAULLEY: To be released on Monday, yes, that was my impression, Mr.

Speaker, and I think it would only be proper to say before accepting the suggestion of my honourable friend that we would have to see if there were any possible terms and conditions on which the release is made as to distribution other than within the federal arena, at least for the time being. But I will transmit to the Premier the request of the Honourable Leader of the Oppositio n. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Mines.

By way of preliminary I should say that I add res sed the question to the First Minister the other day relative to the pipe I ine and the agenda item on the conference which the First Minister is now attending in Brandon. Could the Minister of Mines advise if the Government of Manitoba has formed any opinion with respect to the alternate Yukon route, that is along the Alaska Highway, and whether or not that is under discussion at the present time with the First Ministers in Brandon. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Mines. MR.

GREEN: No, I regret that I am unable to advise the honourable member whether there is a Manitoba position on that question. He will have to await the return of the First Minister; he'll be coming back on Monday. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BOB BAN MAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I direct my question to the Minister of Finance in the absence of the Minister of Ind ustry and Commerce and would ask him whether he could supply the members of the Legislature with the details of the employment grants to be made available to persons employing summer students. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HONO URABLE SAUL A. MILLER (Seven Oaks): No, Mr. Speaker, those forms and applications are now being prepared and probably will be ready for distribution at the beginning of the week. 2751 THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY of MANITOBA

Friday, May 6, 1977 MR. BAN MAN: I wonder if the Minister could confirm that the Minister of In dustry and Commerce made some details available yesterday in Brandon and I wonder if he could supply those to the members of the Legislature. MR. MI LLER: Well, Mr. Speaker, I have not seen the report referred to. That part of the program will certainly be under the Department of In dustry and Commerce. Some information may have been given, as it was by the First Minister, but I gather from the question, the actual mechanics, the forms, etc., that the member is asking for, I don't have them at this time.

Hopefully, there will be early in the week at which time of course the Minister of Ind ustry and Commerce will be back. MR. BANMAN: A final supplementary. Do I understand the Minister right then that these forms and the details will be made available within a week? MR. MIL LER: Yes, I believe that is so. They are apparently being prepared now and will be ready for general distribution. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. WARNER H. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, I have just one further question in relation to that same subject.

I wonder if the Minister could advise the House if there is any reason why the details of that program, which were announced by the Minister of Industry and Commerce in Brandon last night, could not be made available to the House at least the day after. MR. MI LLER: Mr. Speaker, I don't know what details were announced. Somebody just mentioned to me they were the general broad parameters and not the details. I assumed that the question asked of me was the kind of detail which was: how does one apply; where does one apply; what forms are there; where are they and when can we get them?

That kind of information I don't have here and I don't think those forms will be ready until next week. MR. JORGENSON: One further question: Is there any good reason why that announcement could not have been made in this Chamber rather than in Brandon? MR. MIL LER: Mr. Speaker, I be lieve the announcement was made here Wednesday afternoon. I wasn't here but the First Minister made it so probably what was made in Bran don was simply a repeat of that with, perhaps, some minor enlargement on the theme itself.

I don't know that there were any specific details as to the mechanics of how to go about applying and getting involved in that program. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. LLOYD AXWORTHY: Well, Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Acting First Minister or whichever Minister may answer the question and that refers to the reports of the impending sale of Transair to Pacific Western Airlines.

I wonder if someone from the Treasury bench can indicate if the Government of Manitoba has had any discussion or negotiations with the two companies involved or with the Government of Alberta and can he indicate if there has been any approval or agreement given by the Government of Manitoba to this sale or at least acquiescence then. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Labour. MR. PAULLEY: I'm sure my honourable friend is just as knowledgeable of what has been transpiring as I am in my present capacity, that trading was suspended on shares in Transair and that the matter is under consideration.

Manitoba of course has an interest in air transportation and I'm sure my colleague, the Premier, and the Minister of In dustry and Commerce will be watching very very closely the developments in this particular industry- and particularly, Mr. Speaker, what I have suggested - they will be doing that because of the letdown of the Federal authority when the Government of Manitoba attempted to have established a community air service on the Prairies, this may be a methodology of the ai r industry to take the Federal authority off of the hook. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr.

Speaker, I almost forgot what I asked in the first place. Perhaps I co uld pursue it with that Minister, or perhaps another to ask if, in the case of the Transair negotiation, whether the issue will be raised at the meeting of the western Premiers, considering that it does raise a potential of a serious loss of jobs and employment and economic enterprise in the City of Winni peg and in the province of Manitoba.

And in view of the fact that the Pacific Western is owned by the Government of Alberta, it would appear that the opportunity to discuss arrangements or to get some degree of assurances from the Government of Alberta that there would not be any major economic loss to the province should be pursued and I'm wondering if the government is intending to do that kind of representation. MR. PAULLEY: Well, really, Mr. Speaker, I don't think it's incumbent on me to say what is being discussed between four Premiers over a two-day period in Brandon.

They are there, we are here, but I'm sur e even my friend, the Member for Fort Rouge would recognize that at conferences of that nature, although he never has and possibly never will, get an opportunity to participate in first line consultations - but apart from all of that, apart from all of that, at conferences from time to time certain matters arise and discussions take place, and I can't say to the House, Mr. Speaker, this morning that that will happen at Brandon. MR. AXWORTHY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Perhaps, directly pertinent to the respon sibilities of the Minister of Labour in the potential that this transaction has for the loss of hundreds of 2752

Friday, May 6, 19 77 jobs in the province, can the government give us the assurance that if they can't reach the Premier by telephone in Brandon for some strange reason, will the government in fact undertake to take this matter up with the Government of Alberta and the companies involved, to get those kind of agreements and assurance on the retention of the plants and maintainence facilities in the City of Winnipeg of Transair? MR. PAULLEY: Of course, Mr. Speaker, the Government of Manitoba has an interest as to what may happen as insofar as employment in the aerospace industry is concerned.

We are very much concerned with that aspect. I also want to say to my honourable friend that, unlike in certain areas, the Premiers of the four western provinces do talk to each other regarding matters of mutual concern, and this is one of those concerns and that will be done. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. ROBERT G. WILS ON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question to the Minister of Health. As an employer, is the province considering providing Day Care services for provincial government employees in the province? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Health. HONO URABLE LAURENT L.

DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Mr. Chairman, we are reviewing policies on Day Care as well on other programs continually. I would imagine that there have been requests from different people, civil servants and others that are being considered. MR. WILSO N: Because of the upcoming meetings in the Legislative Buildings are they considering providing Day Care facilities within the Legislative Buildings? MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I don't think that was considered, maybe I can get together with the Minister of Public Works and use the dome upstairs; I don't know, that might be possible. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I direct my question to the Honourable Minister for Consumer and Corporate Affairs. Has he any information on a firm called Shopping Spree Merchandising Limited, which is a telephone soliciting firm that sells for $25.00 a coupon which contains $400 worth of discounted goods and services from local merchants? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Consumer and Corporate Affairs. HONO URABLE RENE TOUPIN (Springfield): Well, Mr.

Speaker, first of all I would like to thank the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie for giving me advance notice of his question which he did yesterday and I had a chance to do a quick check on the company. lt is a registered company with the Companies Branch; it is bonded under the Consumer Protection Act, they have a bond of $20,000; they have about 14 employees, that varies. They do sell booklets to consumers, the price I am told is $24.95; it is supposedly worth between $500 and $600.00. We are not aware of any abuse to consumers or businesses.

There is a discount - CKRC I am told is involved equally- they have done business in BC and Alberta, -I am not quite sure if they still are -t hey are operating out of the Westminster Hotel I am informed. There doesn't seem to be any problem with the activity, but if there is, I would ask the Honourable Member for Portage, or any other member, to inform me and we will check it out. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, another question to the Minister. Is the Minister aware of reports that this firm has oversold in other cities in the west causing great financial hardship to merchants who became involved in the scheme?

MR. TOUPIN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we checked this out in BC and Alberta, and this was not confirmed as being a fact. The businesses that are doing affairs with the group here are seemingly satisfied. They are not surpassing the committed amount, if it is an amount, say, of 3,000 items; they are sticking to the amount. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memeber for Assiniboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct my question to the Minister of Health and Social Development responsible for Fitness and Sport.

In view of the fact that we have two Canadian hockey teams involved in a the play-offs, Winnipeg Jets and Quebec Nordiques, who play a very high calibre of hockey, would the Minister give consideration to requesting the CBC to view the play-offs so that the citizens of Canada and Manitoba could have the opportunity to see that calibre of hockey? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. DESJARDINS: I would imagine that I would have to have permission from AI Eagleson on that no doubt. MR. PATRICK: Mr.

Speaker, I am sure that the Minister was not sincere or serious when he said he would have to ask .. . -(I nterjection)- Mr. Speaker, I didn't mean the World finalists, I meant the two finalists in the World Hockey Association. I mentioned the Quebec Nordiques and the Winn ipeg Jets. What I am asking is, would the Minister give consideration to requesting CBC to give equal time to what the National Hockey League is getting, as the two teams are playing a very high calibre of hockey and they are the finalists.

Would he request the CBC or give consideration to ask the CBC to televise the play-offs so that we can see that calibre of hockey? 2753

Friday, May 6, 19 77 MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, there is no doubt that the government would add its voice to those that are requesting that, but I think it is a question of contract and so on that you sign at the start of the year, and it would be very very difficult. lt is a contract with the TV station but we certainly would have no hesitation in getting in touch with CBC and suggesting - seeing that my honourable friend says that it is an "aii-Canadian final" that some of the games should be televised. MR. PATRICK: A supplementary.

In view that the CBC has broadcasted special events of that nature and this is one, perhaps the top one, would the Minister consider putting a request in writing to the President of the CBC. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, we have to get in touch with the Jets Hockey Team first. I think that this is something that should be done. For instance, I don't know if they would want to televise all the home games and so on, but in any circumstance we will get in touch with the Jet office and if it is their wish we would support them in their bid. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L.

R. (Bud) SHERMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the same Minister. and I would ask him while he is making those entreaties to get the WHA final on television, would he also make an entreaty to get 90 Minutes Live off. MR. DESJARDI NS: Mr. Speaker, responsible for fitness, I don't think that I would want that because I have to get out of bed every so often to turn it off and I think ... MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. HARRY lE. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs.

I would like to ask him when we can expect the report of the Manitoba Heritage Foundation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Tourism, Recreation and Cu ltural Affairs. HONOU RABLE BEN HANUSCHAK (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, the program and the estimates of the Man itoba Heritage Foundation will be dealt with in the Estimates and as soon as we reach that point that will then become the subject, proper matter for debate in a Committee of this House. MR. GRAHAM: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Tourism if he is aware of the requirements of the Legislature here that that report should have been tabled 15 days after the Legislature opened. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Speaker, I will take a second look at the Act and if the honourable member's

interpretation of legislation is correct, then I apologize that I have erred. On the other hand, the honourable member may well be wrong and then I would hope that he would apologize. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, if I co uld ask a question of the Minister responsible for MDC in relation to the Transair transaction.

Can he indicate whether in his capacity, or whether the MDC itself, had any request for assistance from Transair for continuing support as a Manitoba company and did the government undertake any negotiations to determine whether assistance could have been proffered or that there could have been an equity share in that company. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, without dealing with the specifics of the question, I would like to answer that the MDC is not embarked at the present time in a policy of investing money in losing operations. Secondly, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to indicate that the Minister of Transport in Ottawa has done everything possible to scuttle any attempt by the public to be involved in any airline operation. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, at first I raised the question when did MDC change its policy; it must have been just in the last five min utes. Secondly, I would ask the Minister if, based upon your statement, how he can confirm that the Minister of Transport in Ottawa is supporting the activities of people's involvement in airlines, Pacific Western being one case, and I suppose Air Canada could be another. But more importantly, Mr.

Speaker, the question that would be of pertinence to people in this province would be the question of the maintenance of the air routes that Transair presently has - those connecting to Toronto and those, of course, going up north and in other parts of western Canada - and to determine whether representations will be made to ensure that those lines, routes are continued and that service will be available on those lines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I gather that the honourable member has been sleeping or if not sleeping, unable to absorb in the last four years.

In the last four years, since change of policy was announced, there has been a total of $300,000 out of a total of $13 5 million lost, which has been invested in enterprises by the MDC which have lost money. So if he is talking about the last five minutes, it is something which obviously he has not been able to survey things while he has been in this House. That is the record over the last four years. There has been no new enterprises in which we have invested, save the loss of $300,000 in a joint venture with a private enterprise company regarding Evergreen Peat Moss.

All of the other losses stem from the previous administration for the most part and some losses which we invested in as a result of the federal closing-down of the Gimli Air Base, the reduction of $9 2754

Friday, May 6, 1977 million in yearly spending by the Federal Government in that area, and the difficulties experienced by a private firm, Flyer Coach In dustries, which was a firm in this country which we have tried to keep going. If the Honourable Member wishes to make a joke out of that, that is his concern. He says that we have not tried to create jobs and that obviously, by the program announced by the First Minister the other day, we haven't learned that our job program isn't working. What we have learned Mr. Speaker, is that the Federal Government's program to eliminate and create unemployment is working.

With regard to the efforts of the Minister of Transport to keep the airlines in business, the Minister of Transport tried to prevent the Government of Alberta from buying an airline, and has been trying his best to see to it that Air Canada is transferred to the Canada Development Corporation and then sold to private interests. MR. AXWORTHY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Considering the Minister's obvious dislike for federal investments in the Province of Manitoba, is he now prepared to request the Federal Government to withdraw all its DREE grants, industrial incentive grants and support for plants like McCain's which are providing close to 3,000 or 4,000 jobs in the Province of Manitoba presently. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I have urged for the last four years, since I have been in government, that the Federal Government stop making donations to private enterprise. I have urged that for the past eight years. But Mr.

Speaker, as long as they are making donations, then it is not some type of gift that the public in Manitoba are entitled to their share of. If the honourable memberthi nkssq, it is an indication that he believes that somehow we are being given a free deal, when what is being done is our money is being spent throughout the country. And as long as Manitoba money is being given as donations to private firms throughout the country, so as the Minister of DREE says, "Donations are not loans so it will not clutter up the books," Mr. Speaker.

The Minister of DREE said that the reason that they make a donation and not a loan is that the Minister of Finance doesn't like to see it on the books as a loss, so if it is given as a donation, then it can't be lost. And if we did that, Mr. Speaker, with the MDC, there would not be a cent in losses in the Manitoba Development Corporation. But we have objected to the policy of gifts to so-called "rugged individualists" on the basis of maintaining the fiction of free enterprise, as long as that money is given, Mr. Speaker, then the people in our province have to be entitled to it as well as anybody else. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge, final question. MR. AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Minister of Mines responsible for MDC has opened an interesting line of new policy of the government. Can we now confirm then that the government, the Minister is speaking on behalf of the government, is now against the Department of Regional Economic Expansion in putting money into projects like McCain's and Phillips Cable which are providing hundreds of jobs in the province.

Is that now a stand of the government on behalf of it; and if so, how does he jibe that with the position taken by the Minister of In dustry and Commerce who, in his Estimates said, that that was one of the major contributors of jobs in Manitoba. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member once again indicated either an unwillingness or an inability to understand.

I have indicated that as long as the Federal Government is going to be spending that money and giving gifts to private enterprise in the guise of maintaining the fiction of rugged individualism and on the assumption that you don't lose money when you give a gift, as long" as that is being done, then the Government of Manitoba is going to ask that its enterprises g,.,t their full share of those gifts. The honourable member thinks that that is something that we have to grovel to the Federal Government for, then I suspect that that is his understanding of the way he would be if he was in government.

We have indicated that we regard this as a wrong policy, but if it continues, Mr. Speaker, we must of necessity take advantage of it, and will take advantage of it. As far as its creating jobs throughout Canada, I have no way of knowing, Mr. Speaker, but I largely suspect that all of those jobs would have been created without those gifts throughout this country, but the money would have been invested by the private firms themselves. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, a further question to the Minister of Mines in charge of the MDC.

Moving from the general to the particular, can the Minister confirm whether or not the Government of Manitoba has been consulted by either the Government of Alberta or Pacific Western Airlines concerning the alleged, proposed acquisition of Transair? MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member is entitled to assume, and I suggest it would be a pretty fair assumption, that there have been continuing discussions with various people in this connection.

The honourable member would also be aware that it would not be of great benefit to what is the proper resolution of this situation for any particulars to be discussed while negotiations are taking place. What I can tell the honourable member is this, that it seems to be a matter which the Legislature could take what the courts call judicial notice of, that a private freeenterprisecompany in the Province of Manitoba called Transair is in difficulty, and that it got there in the same way as some public companies get into difficulties; that it is trying to resolve those difficulties; that it might make 2755

Friday, May 6, 1977 -(I nterjection)- well, Mr. Speaker, it is all public money. Mr. Speaker, the only money that is available to Transair is the money that we pay when we buytheir tickets, and it is all public money one way or the other. -(l nterjections)- MR. SPEAKE: SPEAKER: Order please. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member will have, I suspect, good opportunity, and I welcome it, to debate this question when we are on the Estimates. In the meantime I am trying to answer his question. I admit that I am going a little further, but the fact is that a private company is on the ropes.

I do not see the ridicule in the newspapers vis-a-vis that company that I see with regard to some of the public companies. I think that that is fine. I think that that's fine, but I think that the distinction should be noted. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I wish to thank the Honourable the Minister of Mines for his frankness, and I accept the caveat that he attaches with respect to matters that are under negotiation.

Can he however, Sir, assure the House that in the course of those negotiations, the considerations about which there have been debate this morning, namely the protection of the overhaul base, the protection of jobs in Manitoba? Can we assume that those considerations form part of the discussions with the persons in question? MR. GREEN: I think that the Acting First Minister has already indicated that. I can repeat it.

I can tell the honourable member that every effort will be made in whatever circumstances to protect the citizens of the Province of Manitoba and the economy of the Province of Manitoba, but the honourable member is well aware of the fact that even when it was the Government of Canada involved, and not a private firm, we could not protect the removal of the overhaul base of the Air Canada by the friends of my honourable friend, the Member for Fort Rouge, from leaving this province. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I somewhat hesitate to ask another question of the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources -(l nterjections)- MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. GRAHAM: - but in an effort to clean up our act, can the Minister tell us when we can expect the Annual Report of the Clean Environment Commission? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member when he is looking at those notations is quite correct. I can tell him that there is a physical limitation to that: if the Act is not printed and delivered to us, we can't table it.

I don't remember receiving the report of the Clean Environment Commission, but I remember that it was under way and wou Id be sent to my office as office. As soon as it comes in, it will be tabled. If i am wrong in what I am now saying, then it will be tabled before the day is out, but my recollection is that it didn't come to my desk yet. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the same Minister, with respect to his stated opposition to the DREE Program as we have it in Manitoba.

Is the Minister aware that the official announcement of the DRE E grant to Phillips Cable, the announcement being made at Portage la Prairie about three and a half years ago by his colleague, the Minister of In dustry and Commerce, is he aware that at that tim e his colleague said, "There are many things I do not agree with that the Federal Government does, but I do agree with the DREE Program. lt is a good one, and good for Manitoba?" MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of the comment. I disagree with it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR.

BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I direct my que stion to the Minister in charge of Renewable Resources, and would ask him in light of the recent rains, if there has been any change with regard to travel restrictions imposed on the provinical parks? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Renewable Resources. HONO URABLE HARVEY BOSTROM (Rupertsland): Well, Mr. Speaker, the recent rains have only had a marginal impact on the fire situation.

The most recent report I have received from the department, which was as of 10 o'clock this morning, is that there are still SO fires burning in Manitoba and that two of those are still not under control in the lnterlake area, so that the situation is still quite serious and we will be maintaining restrictions wherever they are necessary. MR. BANMAN: So, if I understand the Minister correctly then, there have been no changes as far as the travel restrictions in provincial parks? MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Speaker, I have not had any recommendations from the department to lift any restrictions that have been already placed.

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: I have a question for the Minister of Tourism. Last session I asked the former Minister how many government cabins had been built in the provincial parks. Could the Minister tell . 2756

Friday, May 6, 19 77 the House now the number now in operation tor rent? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Tourism and Recreation. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Speaker, I am sure that the honourable member recalls that I introduced the Estimates of this department last night, and that when we reach Committee of Supply we will to continue with the debate of my Estimates. 040 ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I would prefer to move to the In troduction of Second Readings. MR. SPEAKER: Page 3. Very well. Second Readings. MR. GREEN: Starting with 51, then 61 and 64. SECOND READING - GOVERNMENT BILLS BILL (NO. 51 ) -

AN ACT TO AMEND THE CIVIL SERVICE SUPERANNUATION ACT MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister tor Labour. MR. PAULLEY presented Bill No. 51 ,

an Act to amend The Civil Service Superannuation Act, tor second reading. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: I am sure, Mr. Speaker, that honourable members will forgive me if, during the introduction of second reading, there are times that my voice may not be as audible as it normally is. I'm having a -(Int erjection)- yes, send me a ... I don't know what proportion it should be in. This bill, Mr. Speaker, it is obvious by its title it is dealing with the Civil Service benefits, the Civil Service Act itself.

By way of introduction, I just want to say that changes in the Act, other than those of purely administrative impact, or input, are subject to consideration by a joint comm ittee comprised of representatives of the Civil Service as a whole and also representatives of the Manitoba Hydro Employees' Association and the Manitoba Telephone Association. This liaison committee meets with the Minister from time to time and also with officials charged with the administration of the Act. I have a few brief notes, Mr. Speaker, in connection with those aspects which I want to refer to.

Some of the earlier suggested amendments are to make the Fund's permissible investments consistent with the Pension Benefits Act and the Trustees Act. Members will recall that the government, a year or so ago, introduced

an Act, the Pension Benefits Act, which made for provisions under that particular Act that superannuation funds, or pension benefits, could be made for certain investment purposes or certain investment areas. One of the purposes of the amendments to this Act is to make sure that the investments of the Fund are uniform with those permissible under the Pension Benefits Act. The reason why the slight delay, Mr.

Speaker, is because honourable members may recall that at last year's session it was agreed that rather than legislate as is normal for a full three year cycle or period with the Civil Service Superannuation Act, that any required new amendments would be forthcoming at this session. So the existing investment provisions under

Section 9 of the Act would be rescinded and contemplated changes in the Trustee Act would enable the Fund to invest in Manitoba school capital finance authority, or hospital capital financing authority debentures which was not permissible prior. They were permitted in one area but not the other and this is to make them un iform. The ame ndment however, Mr. Speaker, would include a grandfather clause which would permit the Fund to continue to hold its existing investments if they were outside the parameters of permissible investment under the Pension Benefits Act.

To the best of the information that I have received, Mr. Speaker, the Fund does not have any such investments at the present time. A further amendment to the Act, Mr. Speaker, is to permit the Board to borrow money upon the credit of the Fund in such manner and in such times as may be deemed expedient by a temporary loan or line of credit to be obtained from a chartered bank, credit union or corporation or government, in sums up to a maximum of $5 million and on such terms tor such periods and conditions as the In vestment Committee and/or the Board - The Civil Service Superannuation Board - may determine.

There is also contained within the proposed amendments to the Act, provision to set up a separate account from which future pension cost of living adjustments will be made. Honourable members, I am sure, Mr. Speaker, are aware of the fact that we have established a cost of living feature or factor in the bill but the assessment is made every three years and adjustments made insofar as financing is concerned by way of the consolidated revenue without any separate accounting for future involvements and payment of cost of living adjustments. At the present time, under a present

section in the Act there is a requirement of the Board to 2757

Friday, May 6, 1977 deliver a copy of each Actuarial Report to the Provincial Secretary. We are going to up-date provincial secretary by replacing the words "provincial secretary" with the words "Minister designated under

Section 57 having general supervision over the Acf' to make sure that a copy of each Actuarial Report gets into the hands of the Minister charged with the responsibility of the Act rather than it going, as at the present time, to the Provincial Secretary although in normal operation' of course, we do talk to each other. But this is to consolidate the fact of the requirement for the Minister to be made directly knowledgeable of the Actuarial Report. Another feature in the proposed amendment, Mr.

Speaker, is to increase employee contributions to the Fund from 4.4 percent to 5.1 percent or 7/1 Oths of one percent of Canada pensionable earnings and from 6 percent to 7 percent of earnings in excess of Canada permissible earnings. The reason I think for this, Mr. Speaker, is obvious - that costs of provision of pensions are increasing as indeed benefits are and the committee, I am happy to say, fully agreed that these contributions by the employees would be increased in order to accommodate increased costs of operation, increased benefits under the Pension.

As far as the consolidated revenue' of course, under our scheme, the benefits which inure to the retired personnel are paid half by the consolidated revenue of Manitoba. Another amendment, Mr. Speaker, is to permit an employee who agrees to make payments to the · Fund for the purpose of having his prior service re-instated in the Fund, to make instalment payments and interest as agreed to by the Board, rather than only in equal monthly instalments plus 6 percent interest as at present. This is to give more freedom of negotiations between the employee and the Board. Another amendment suggested, Mr.

Speaker is to permit the Board to recover from the various employers half of the superannuation adjustment paid to pensioners on account of a rise in the cost of living. As I indicated a moment ago it's a 50-50 basis, the employee's contribution is one thing, the employers pay half and by way of this amendment, we intend to permit the Board to recover from the various employers half of the adjustment paid to pensioners on account of rises in the cost of living.

We also intend to provide that in any year the rate of return earned by the Fund is less than the rate of return assumed by the actuary in his evaluation, plus one-half of one percent, the . So when that government shall pay the Fund the difference rate of return is less than what the actuary had assumed it would be, the government will pay the Fund the difference between that percentage additional cost. A very important, to me, amendment which is being proposed, Mr.

Speaker, and this is in general line with the philosophical approach may I say of the government, is to change the pension reduction for retirement between the ages of 55 and 60 from 3 percent penalty to 1 V2 percentforeach year that retirement occurs before age 60 and also for those employees who retire due to partial disabilities at any age prior to age 60. So this continues the trend that we established, I believe, back in 19 70 of a reduction of the penalties to employees because of their desire to go on retirement earlier than the normal age 65. I think it would be only proper for me, Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that there are consultations and arguments and discussions taking place within areas generally attrib uted to Human Rights because of compulsory retirement at 65; there is, also, accompanying that increasing requests in the Trade Union movement and other movements for a reduction of the compulsory age of retirement below that of 65 years of age - I may say, just in connection with this, Mr. Speaker, I attended a convention of the CUPE Manitoba Division at Brand on over the weekend.

Members of the Assembly will recognize that CUPE, the Canadian Union of Public Employees, is the organization most involved with public service personnel. I found with a great deal of interest that a resolution was passed or proposed, I guess I should say, at the convention, which reads as follows: "Whereas the existing retirement age of 65 and

whereas the present rate of unemployment is placing undue hardships on young people, be it therefore resolved that the Manitaoba Division of the Canadian Union of Public Employees go on record as favouring a reduction" I repeat, "as favouring a reduction in the compulsory retirement age from 65 to 60." This is the opposite trend from the position taken by such companies, as I understand it, as the Great West Life and also some actuaries in other fields. Just as an aside, Mr.

Speaker, I might say that I can concur basically with the suggestion made by the convention at Brandon, but I want to also say that I realize that at the present time there can conceivably be hardships to individuals at compulsory retirement at age 65.

I have no desire, I have no personal desire for a person simply to have to cease employment because of the age factor, but I think it is incumbent upon society to make sure that there are adequate provisions of pensions at age 65 and gradually reduced to compulsory at 60 so that a person can retire from active employment with dignity and also have sufficient resources to be able to enjoy the benefits of long participation, in many cases, in the industrial and professional fields. I raise that, Mr. Speaker, because I did refer to the resolution at Brandon.

I have heard that the Human Rig hts Commission of Manitoba have had some studies insofar as compulsory retirement at 65. We are going to be faced with a very important decision, I suggest, in the next few years as to how this should be approached. Another amendment, Mr. Speaker, is to make provision for cost of living superannuation 2758

Friday, May 6, 1977 adjustments each July 1s t on a continual yearly basis to compensate for inflation to the extent that additional employees' contributions paid into the separate account, which I referred to earlier, will actuarially finance pension adjustments reflecting the change in the consumer price index. The way the Act reads at the present time, Mr. Speaker, is that the legislation has to be changed - it used to be normally every three years.

Honourable members will recall that last year when I introduced amendmen ts to the Act I pointed out that the granting of the cost of living increase would be for one year only, but that in the interim we would have an opportunity of makin g a complete assessment as to the effect on the Fund and, of course, the consolidated revenue, the effects of ever-escalating costs of living. This has now been done.

I indicate to honourable members of the Assembly that by agreement there will be an increase in the percentage premiums paid by the employees and that there will be established a reserve fund for the cost-of-living purposes but we will no longer have to change our legisla tion year by year in order that this might be accommodated. In other words, what we're saying in this part of the amendments that I am proposing, Mr.

Speaker, is assuring our retired pensioners that there will be an ongoing and continuing adjustment anniversary date, July 1s t, so that it will not be necessary for those who are retired to wonder whether or not the government ofthe day is going to come through with a continuation, or an increase if that be the case, of cost-of-living bonuses or increases in the amount of pension.

Of course, honourable members know that since we started this government in 19 69 and 19 70 that the increased take-home pay of the retired civil servants by and large has been increased by more than threefold and also, of course, reduction of penalties for early retirement. Another amendment we are suggesting, Mr. Speaker, is to limit the indexing of an employee's deferred pension.

The present provision allows for an employee who resigns and has had the required service to leave his contributions in the Fund and to receive a pension later, which presently will be increased by an equal amount to any percentage increase in the Canadian Consumer Price In dex since his resignation. The amendment being proposed will limit the increase paid on deferred accounts to the same increases as pensioners will receive in respect to the same year so that there's no difference between the amount of increase for the two. Another amendment contained in the proposed Act, Mr.

Speaker, is to lock into the Fund contributions made in respect of service after July 1s t, 19 76, by an employee who termi nates at age 45 or over and who has ten or more years of employment. The reasons why we do this and use the date July 1s t, 19 76 and after, is because we feel that to allow service prior to July 1s t, 19 76, which a refund of contributions has been made and to qualify it for purposes of determining eligibi lity of benefits. lt's deemed that this would bring it into conformity with the present Pensions Act as of July 1s t, 19 76.

Then another amendment which may be considered as relatively unimportant is to continue crediting 3 percent interest on contributions from July 1s t of 19 78 to December 31 st. This is necessary at this stage so that that credit can continue because, as I understand it, under the present legislation the three percent interest credit - which is pretty low, I admit - expires at the end of the year and the purpose of this is an extension for a further year. Another amendment, Mr.

Speaker, is to permit the Board to make requested pension deductions not only for the United Health and Health Services Insurance premiums - as is the case at the present time - but to allow the Board to make requested deductions for any benefits or other objectives deemed to be reasonable to protect the pensioner from garnishment, attachment or seizure. In other words, if a pensioner wants to have certain other premiums deducted from his cheque other than those stipulated, if in the opinion of the Board it is reasonable, then the said deduction can be made for the convenience of the pensioner.

Another amendment contained in the Act, Mr. Speaker, is one to enable pensioners to receive credit for war service and prior non-pensionable service sooner than it is now possible. This will require an interest rate of 7 percent per annum accumulating on the pensioner's postponed account.

Whereas currently with an 11 percent interest rate calculated under one of the sections in the present Act, some pensioners would never receive an increase under the postponed account method. Pensioners who are age 80 or over, and those who had First World War service will receive an immediate increase in their pensions in accordance to their service. The government will pay the cost of pensions in respect of First World War service. The actuary has stated that there is no actuarial cost to the Fund itself.

Also persons will be required to apply to receive credits for war service and prior non-pensionable employment on or before July 1s t, 19 80, at which time this option will cease. The reason for that, Mr. Speaker, is that we feel that in the interim between now and July 1s t, 19 80, we will be able to tidy up these few problems we are having in respect of increased pensions as a result of war service. Mr. Speaker, this has given a rather lengthy introduction into the bill.

I'm sure honourable mem bers will appreciate that while I haven't got full copies of the basic reasons and explanations as I have attempted to give to the House, I would be more than pleased to consult with those who may be representative of the parties so that they have the same text as I tried to put into the record for the 2759

purpose of historic development through Hansard. I do reallythink, Ml', Speaker, that with the co-operation of the employees' representatives - and 1 want to thank them for their courteousness to me. I also want to thank the staff of the Civil Service Superannuation Board. Hugh Benham was Chairman of the Board until recently. He retired; his place has been taken by Stuart Anderson, who members will recall was Deputy Minister of Finance, and the choice of the Board. So I want to say thank you to all of these people.

This is a very complicated area of involvement by individuals such as myself and I' m sure honourable members will recognize that if I have any area of expertise this isn't one of them that I actually have and I have to · rely, as I do, on the likes of Waiter Worosz, the General Manager, and Stuart Anderson and the others, and I want to express my appreciation . I think generally speaking, Mr.

Speaker, and members of the Assembly, that the proposals contained within this bill will meet with the wide acceptance of those who are on retirement at the present time and those who may soon be retired from the government service. I recommend to the House full consideration of all of these items. MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed I' d like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery where we have 60 students of W.C. Miller Collegiate, of Grade 11 standing, under the direction of Mr. Kehler and Mr. AI Schmidt. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Rhineland.

We welcome you. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. BILL (NO. 61) - THE MARITAL PROPERTY ACT MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 61 , the Honourable Attorney-General. HONO URABLE HO WARD PAWLEY (Selkirk) introduced Bill (No. 61 ) - The Marital Property Act, for second reading. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, this bill presently being introduced will be one of three bills that will relate to the family law reform measures.

First we have The Martial Property Act. We will have a second bill which will be more of an omnibus nature that will deal with amendme nts to various Acts that relate to Fam ily Law such as The Dower Act to The Devolution of Estates Act, etc. The third bill will be one which will deal with the question of maintenance. Three and a half years ago, in October, 19 73, the Supreme Court of Canada published its decision in a now famous case which we have all heard, I'm sure, a great deal about. lt was called Murdoch versus Murdoch. In that case a majority of the Supreme Court held that since Mrs.

Murdoch, who applied for a one-half interest in the property, cattle and other assets owned in the name of Mr. Murdoch, had made no direct financial contribution to the acquisition of this property, there was no basis for finding a resulting interest in her favour. Yet the facts of that case indicated that for twenty one years Mr. Murdoch was away for an average of five months each year on stock association business and, in his absence, Mrs.

Murdoch made significant contributions by way of haying, raking, swathing, mowing, driving the truck, the tractor, dehorning, vaccinating and branding cattle, in addition to the usual chores performed by a housewife. The decision in the Murdoch case and certain other court decisions which are also, I think, quite well known at this point, expounded the law in a way which runs contrary to the expectations and sense of justice by most of our citizens who considered that the law should require spouses to endow each other with all, or at least one-half, of their worldly goods.

This concern led to studies of family law being undertaken by virtually every Law Reform Commission in Canada. The Manitoba Law Reform Commission issued its report on Family Law a year ago and that report, as members know, was considered by a committee of this Legislature and the report of the committee is on record. In introducing The Marital Property Act and The Family Maintenance Act, it is our desire to make the law consistent with the expectations and the sense of justice of the people of the Province of Manitoba.

However, the life styles, the maturity, economic circumstances and responsibilities of people in domestic conflict or breakdown will vary enormously in our pluralistic society. Our concern and the concern of the Manitoba Law Reform Commission and the Committee of the Legislature which considered the recommendations of the Manitoba Law Reform Commission is to formulate a Code of Family Law which is flexible enough to accommodate the human and economic variables justly and yet precise enough so that everyone may know or be accurately advised about his or her rights and responsibilities.

Today, The Marital Property Act is being introduced for second reading and I expect that next week I will be in a position to introduce The Family Maintenance Act for second reading. Speaking as to The Marital Property Act, it follows closely the recommendations of the La:w 2760 Friday, May 6, 1977

Friday, May 6, 1977 Reform Commission and the Legislative Committee. The Act provides for a standard marital regime whereby all assets acquired during marriage are deemed to be owned equally by the spouses upon termination of the marital relationship. Certain assets are deemed to be owned jointly with the interest of each spouse arising immediately upon acquisition of the asset.

These are referred to as "family assets" while all other assets are referred to as "commercial assets", and no accounting or equalization of those assets will take place until there is a separation, divorce, or where a court determines that one spouse is dissipating these assets. In addition to the marital home, which is dealt with separately in the Act, family assets include such property as the furniture, furnishings in the family home; the family car; family cottage; the family boat; the family trailer.

In fact, family assets which are defined as all shareable assets that are not commercial assets, including all that property that is shared by the family, but for practical purposes does not include the pay cheque or income in money form, except insofar as that money is used to purchase family assets. In this regard, The Family Maintenance Act will make provision to ensure that the family breadwinner appropriately provides for his or her spouse and family. With regard to the marital home there is deemed to be joint ownership where the home is acquired after the marriage or in contemplation of the marriage.

Even though title to the property may be in the name of one of the spouses, no sale or other disposition of the marital home may be made without the consent of both spouses. Where title to the property is in the name of one spouse, the other spouse may register an interest in the marital home by filing a caveat in the appropriate Land Titles Office. There are certain exceptions to these assets that are shareable by the spouses.

In particular, a gift, inheritance or trust benefit conferred upon one spouse exclusively, a damage award, the proceeds from the insurance claim, jewellery or other articles of personal adornment, property obtained where the intent is to benefit one spouse exclusively are examples of assets that are not shareable between the spouses. However, it is deemed that all assets are shareable assets and a spouse claiming that an asset is not shareable, has the onus of so proving.

While there is immediate commun ity of property and family assets as a practical matter, where one spouse disposes of a family asset bona fide for value, and without notice to a third party, the transaction will be valid, but the spouse that disposes of the assets will be liable to the other spouse for the one-half share of the asset. Members that were on the committee will recall the difficulty that we had on committee in this connection involving third parties. The proposal here is to safeguard the right of a third party purchasing, without notice, for value.

We have distinguished commercial assets which are assets related to commercial, business, investment or other income for profit producing purposes. These commercial assets are the assets which are shareable but not subject to accounting or equalization until there is marriage breakdown or some other dissipation of those assets. lt is our intention that the standard marital regime should not encroach or impinge upon the normal everyday business dealings of either spouse.

There is provision in the Act that a spouse will not be required to share in any commercial, business or investment losses, but each spouse will be required to share debts and liabilities directly incurred in fulfilling family maintenance obligations. There is provision for recovery by a spouse of a commercial asset dissipated by other spouses or for the recovery of excessive gifts made by the other spouse. These, of course, are matters that will be det ermined by a court of law.

We have provided that the standard marital regime shall apply to every marriage, whether solemnized before or after coming into force of this Act, and whether solemnized within or outside of Manitoba. However, the spouses may agree with independent legal advice to contract out of all or part of the standard marital regime. Any persons who come to Manitoba with a subsisting marriage contract will also have a one year period to confirm or to amend their marital contract.

Our purpose is that the standard marital regime shall apply to all marriages unless and until the spouses agree with each other, having independent legal advice to contract out of the standard marital regime. There are very few marriage contracts at the present time; we do not antici pate many people contracting out of the standard marital regime. Mr. Speaker, I want to say by addition that the discussions were very helpful that we had involving members of all parties in the Legislative Committee dealing with Family Law and I look forward to debate during second reading of this bill.

I looked forward to the discussion in committee and I look forward again to the public submissions which were certainly helpful to our deliberations earlier and I think that I can say that we will attempt to be as reasonable and asflexibleas is possible in looking at these various areas because they are areas that are legal, technical in nature, and what I proposed here today are proposals that may very well undergo some chan ge. But, I think that the basis essence, the basic substance, of what has been proposed is of great importance to all Manitobans and will be a significant step forward in family law. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. JAMES R. FERGUSON: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Pembin a, that the debate be adjourned. 2761

Friday, May 6, 1977 MOTION presented and carried. BILL (N0.64) -

AN ACT TO AMEND THE HI GHWAY TRAFFIC ACT

(4) MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 64. The Honourable Minister of Highways. HONO URABLE PETER BURTNIAK (Dauphin) presented Bill No. 64,

An Act to amend The Highway Traffic Act (4) for second reading. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. BURTNIAK: Well, Mr. Speaker, the major principles contained in this bill are really the conversion of speed limits from miles per hour to kilometers and the reduction of speed limits. As most of the members know, the government had indicated some time ago its intention to reduce speed limits both as a safety and an energy conservation measure.

Even though reduction in speed limits will not result in major reduction of energy consumption, the grim forecasts of im pending shortages of petroleum fuels compels all governments to consider any measure which will contribute to the conversion of existing resources.

Moreover, unless governments display leadership and initiative in introducing energy conservation measures, such as the reduction of speed limits, increase in registration fees for high gasoline consumption motor vehicles, together with other measures, the public will continue to consume our dimi nishing energy resources at an ever increasing rate before we can develop alternative sources of energy. Because the conversion to metric units of measurement was so close it was decided to implement reduced speed limits in conjunction with conversion to metric units.

This approach had two main · advantages: it will result in a very substantial saving in costs of conversion of speed signs to lower speed limits; secondly, it will reduce confusion amongst the driving public, which is inevitable with any change such as this, and eliminate the necessity of having two instead of one public education programs. I would just like to mention at thistime that all other speeds, which are established by the Highway Traffic Board , will be converted to the nearest whole number which is divisible by 10 , that is to say the number will end in zero rather than some other number.

Last year we amended the provisions of the Act respecting security of loads of loose material requiring such loads to be covered by tarpaulin unless it was so contained within the box of the truck that there was no danger of spillage. Since that amendment came into force problems have arisen as a result of different judicial

interpretations of that section. As an example, one court held that loose material blown off the truck was not covered by this

section and no offence was therefore committed. According ly, this

section is being completely rewritten and a further provision added which will make specific provisions for security of load by regulation, concerning such things as manner of loading, covering and securing of loads carried by vehicles and also permit us to exempt certain types of vehicles such as those used at construction sites from having to have their loads covered. The bill contains an amendment to a provision of the Act concerning vehicles which may be equipped with flashing red lights. Currently, only emergency vehicles such as ambulances, police vehicles and fire fighting equipment may be so equipped.

There are a number of government owned vehicles operated by government employees who are appointed as peace officers for the purpose of enforcing certain provincial and federal statutes with respect to such matters as enforcement of game laws, fishing laws, etc., and which are operated in the course of enforcing such statutes. From time to time it is necessary for these enforcement officers to engage in pursuit of suspected violators, because such vehicles do not apparently fall within the definition of emergency vehicles they do not qualify to be equipped with flashing red lights.

Since in the interests of both the public and the driver of such vehicles, it is deemed necessary that they be so equipped in order to alert other traffic that they are engaged in a pursuit, an amendment is proposed which will authorize such vehicles to be equipped with such lights. An amendment is also proposed which will prohibit the use of sirens and horns by ambu lances and other emergency vehicles when not responding to emergency. From time to time, complaints have been received about misuse of sirens by ambulances when such vehicles are not being driven under emergency conditions.

Frequently the ambulance may be engaged in transferring a patient to another hospital for treatment or returning from an emergency call and the driver puts the siren into operation. Quite apart from causing unnecessary noise, such practice creates an additional hazard on our highways which is completely unnecessary. The proposed amendment would prohibit such practices. Several years ago, an amendment was introduced to the Hig hway Traffic Act prohibiting vehicles from being equipped with radar speed detecting d.evices.

The object of that legislatio n was to make unlawful the use of radar speed detecting devices, the sole object of which is to frustrate the efforts of the police to enforce our speed limits. If we are serious about enforcing our limits, particularly since we are proposing reduction of speed limits for reasons I have explained, the use of such devices should be discouraged by every possible means. 2762

Friday, May 6, 1977 One of the problems that has suffered is the absence of authority in the Act to authorize the police to seize such detecting devices and for the courts to order their confiscation. apparently the only risk a driver runs is a fine. He retains possession of the equipment and may, of course, continue using that equipment. An amendment is proposed which will authorize the police to seize such equipment and also authorize the judge to order its confiscation if he deems that course of action appropriate or he may order the return of the equipment to the owner.

The Act presently prescribes fines for speeding offences at the rate of not less than $2.00 for each mile in excess of the speed limit violated or more than $1 0.00. Because we will be converting to kilometers, it is necessary to amend the formula for calculating fines for speeding offences. The proposed amendment will provide for a fine of $1 .00 for each kilometer of speed, in excess of the maximum speed permissible, up to $5.00, for each kilometer by which the speed limit is exceeded.

The change represents a slight reduction in the fine formula, however, this will be offset by the fact that the number of kilometers by which the speed limit will be exceeded will likely be greater than in terms of miles per hour. In order to permit the Driver License Suspension Appeal Board to have greater flexibility an amendment is being proposed, Mr. Speaker, which will permit one or more members to sit and hear appeals from suspension. The amount will allow the board to expedite hearings and also permit the Chairman to sit with single members during their training period.

The bill also contains an amendment which will permit the use of multi-year license plates for such vehicles as taxis, PS Vs, and CT Trucks, U-d rives and other similar vehicles, in respect to which the Act requires an annual license plate. As members will recall, these plates will be validated by means of stickers as in the case with other plates. Such a change will result in a significant saving in cost and will also ensure that we will not encounter the same problem as we did this year with the annual plate on which the numbers began to flake and wash off shortly after they were used.

In this manner, this will be eliminated. · The bill also contains, Mr. Speaker, a number of technical amendments, none of which either introduce a new principle or change the existing princi ple. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Morris that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HONO URABLE SAMUEL USKIW (Lac du Bonnet): I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Tourism, that Mr.

Speaker, now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Logan in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY ESTIMATES - TOURISM, RECREATION AND CULTURAL AFFAIRS MR. CHAIRMAN: I would refer honourable members to Page 58 of their Estimates Book, Department of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs. Resolution 10 6(

b) Policy and Program Development

(1) Salaries $269,200 - The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BAN MAN: Thank you. Mr. Chairman, before we start I wonder if the Minister could provide for the Members of the Legislature a breakdown of the emp loyees in this particular department.

I think we have asked for it in a number of the departments, namely the number of people that have been hi red through the Civil Service Commission, the number of contract employees; and I wonder if he could give us the number of employees that are involved with special promotions, such as promotion tours that are brought down or have gone down to the States or to any other different jurisdictions as far as promoting tourism in the Province of Manitoba. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: Yes.

I'll basically listen to the Minister's comments pertaining to policy and program development to see if this is the area that I should be asking some questions pertaining to the futuristic role of where the Minister's department is going. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism. MR. HANUSCHAK: In reply to the Honourable Member for La Verendrye, does the honourable member want the information for the fiscal year that we are dealing with, not the one ending? - (I nterjection)- I see. Very well.

Under General Administration which is Resolution 10 6, the number of permanent staff man years is 55; number of term is 8.13- for a total of 63.13, which is a fraction less than last year because last year, it was 56 and 7.26. Under Tourism and Parks Resources Division, the number of permanent is 15 3 which remains at the same level as the fiscal year just ended; the number of term is 53.27 and that 2763

figure is remaining unchanged; departmental staff is 528.25 and that figure is 11 more than last year - for a total of permanent, term and departmental of 735. That, the Honourable Member forWolseley will note, includes the Tourist Branch , and I could break that out for his benefit. The staff man year count there is at the same level as for the fiscal year just ended, 37 permanent and 15 .21 term. The honourable member I believe wants it broken down still finer.

The number of SMYs that are assigned to specifically and directly assigned to tourist promotional work outside the boundaries of the Province of Manitoba, I will attempt to get that information if I can as the debate of the Estimates proceeds. I do not have that for him at this particular point in time.

Continuing in reply to the question from the Honourable Member for La Verendrye, under the third resolution, the last one, Cultural and Recreational Services Division - 81 permanent, 27.40 term which really is an increase of 7 seven staff man years under permanent - all of that is really in the Library Services; one additional staff man years in the Legislative Library and six additional staff man years in the Public Library Services in the Archives Building. So for Cultural and Recreational Services Division, that is a total of 10 8.40 as compared to 97.36 for last year.

Oh yes, I should also explain to the honourable member the increase in term employees is in the Community Recreational Services. I am merely mention ing this - I am trying to be careful, Mr. Chairman, I do not wish to open debate on all of these resolutions at this particular time insofar as program is concerned; I am answering this question only from the point of view of indicating the number of staff in the various programs and then as the debate proceeds, we could debate the programs further. So the total staffman year count fort hecur rentfiscal year is 22, an increase from 885.1 0t o 907.01 . MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Chairman, under this item Policy and Tourist Development - that's what we're dealing with - I would like to find out what is the policy of the government in respect to the development of the tourist industry. I am sure that the Minister must be aware that it is very labour intensive and it can provide many jobs, thousands of jobs perhaps in small family businesses and play a very important

part in the economy of this province. I think it also provides a huge market, Mr. Chairman, for many Canadian goods that are manufactured in this province and of course it would stimulate the economy in many parts of this province. I think that the industry in this department has to receive full attention of the Minister and of the government, and I am concerned and wonder if it is receiving full attention.

I wonder if the Minister has taken stock at the present time, taken stock of our travel industry to determine what is its capacity, and perhaps to chart out the kind of course that is required to attract a tourist to this province. I am looking at the report and I see that the latest statistics we have at the present time are 19 75.

"The Origin of Visitors to Manitoba" indicates Canadians, Americans, and foreign, and it appears to me that in 19 73 we had over three million; in 19 74 we had over three million; and in 19 75, the last statistic that is available to us, it has dropped down to 3,000,1 00, so there was a great reduction from, say, 19 74 to 19 75. Now I would like to know what were the statistics of, say, 19 76. Has it improved somewhat or has it not, because I believe it does require extensive research and perhaps some co-ordination to see what is the problem that we are not getting our fair share.

Is it still the practice that 95 or 90 percent of the tourists come to this province by car, or what is the percentage now that come by airplane? I think this is important. I think that we must have very active tourist promotion. I think it should be combined with the calendar year of our other centennial events in this province, and perhaps it should be to produce a program that would sort of upsurge the industry at the present time. I know that leadership must be provided in the private sector through planning activities, promotional efforts and public information.

I would like to ask the Minister what kind of incentive, what kind of leadership is given at the present time in the private sector. I believe that Manitoba is fortunate and should be able to attract many tourists to this province; it shouldn't be too difficult, because we have many, many historic sites, we have many, many religious sites in this city, and is there information available to all the tourists? Surely everybody knows that Manitoba was the centre when people travelled west, when the whole western part of Canada was developed. People had to travel through Winnipeg. The buffalo hunts in the 18 40s.

There is so much. I think that we are very rich as far as history is concerned, and there should be lots for the tourists to be attracted to. Now 1 don't know if we are promoting this type of activity. I know that the Minister talked about some of our regional festivals, and he said he would be cutting down some of the grants to some of these festivals, and if they are self-sustaining and ifthey have sufficient grants and ifthey are making a porfit, well, maybe he is correct.

But I would be quite concerned if he would be cutting down on some of these grants because some of these festivals really attract many thousands and thousands of tourists, so he may be saying that what he is trying to do may be correct, but in the long run that would be perhaps false economy. 1 can be quite specific with the Minister. I know that when the government came into power a few years ago, the first thing that the government did is cut down the maintenance of some of our golf 2764 Friday, May 6, 1977

Friday, May 6, 1977 courses. And I will give you one example: Falcon Lake. When the grass was three orfour inches, you know the people just didn't play. Nobody. And there is one of the most beautiful courses in this province. I think in the last few years that has been corrected. So it is false economy not to maintain some of our attractions and some of our things in this province. I am concerned and I would like the Minister to give us some statistics, some indication, what were the dollars spent in this province last year, how many tourists we had, because it is not in the book in his report.

I am looking at Page 38 where it shows 19 75, but it doesn't show 19 76, so I would like to know if we are making progress or we are falling back. On a national scale, Mr. Chairman, tourist industries: Number One. I believe Number One or Number Two. lt really produces billions and billions of dollars in industry, and I don't know if the government is really interested in attracting tourists or not. You know some provinces are not. I know a few years ago, the previous administration in the Province of British Columbia, the Minister of Tourism said well, we don't know.

We don't need any more people coming into our province. During the summer our highways are plugged and we don't want any more tourists. Now I think that the Minister should make it clear what the attitude of the government is. Are they prepared to really do the kind of job that will attract many tourists, try to help the small family businesses that would provide facilities? The other point I would like to ask the Minister: Where is the tourist industry in Manitoba? Is it in the fourth place or the fifth place as far as revenue-producing industry?

As I say, on a national scale I believe it's either Number One or Number Two. I would like to know where it is in Manitoba. So I feel that leadership must be provided through the private sector for promotion, for public information to many people, and I think that people in Manitoba should be encouraged to take a holiday in Manitoba. I am concerned that perhaps we have more people from Manitoba going other places than taking a holiday in Manitoba. I can indicate to the Minister: just a couple of weeks ago, on the way back from Colorado, from Aspen, we couldn't find a hotel in Fargo.

We came to Grand Forks and we couldn't find a hotel in Grand Forks. And that was, I believe, on a Thursday or a Friday evening, and that's almost unbelievable. So those cities are doing something to attract that many people, and I am telling the Minister again that many of these people are from this city, from Winnipeg.

Just two weeks ago we had a delegation of 40 people from Minneapolis, Minnesota, from the Vikings Football Club, from their hockey team, from the baseball organization, the Mayor of Minneapolis and quite a delegation of 40 spent three or four days in this city and got quite a reception on TV selling Minneapolis, for Winnipeggers and Manitobans to go to that city. So I would like to know how many tourists that arrive here come by car, and how many are now coming by plane, and how long do they spend in this province, or how many days to they spend in Manitoba?

I think that the Minister did indicate that they are trying to do this, to have them spend more time when they arrive here, and this is fine. But I am concerned and I wonder if we are really doing the proper job. Are we providing the facilities? Are we telling the people what there is to see? I believe that there is so much to see, very much to see. The other point, last year we had a great introduction by the Minister about development of the park on the east side of Lake Winn ipeg, and what is the status of that? Have there been roads built in there?

Is it accessible, and have any kind of facilities been built that people can go and spend some time in this wild erness park? I know a lodge was promised to be built. Some other facilities, washrooms, were promised to be built, and that was announced last year. Now we are a year later and I would like to know what has taken place. We have very high unemployment. A program has been announced that millions of dollars are going to be spent on a makeshift sort of operation.

Wouldn't it be advisable tor the Minister, for the government, to develop some permanent recreation facilities in that park, to do this kind of work that would be left as real amenities for the people of this province?

The historic sites, the regional festivals that the Minister talked about are fine, but I think if he is now going to say we are going to cut down on our grants, our situation may be worse Because from the report, when I see that from 19 74 to 19 75 our visitors to Manitoba have dropped so drastically, it would certainly concern me, because on a national scale, I tell the Minister that tourism is either the Number One or Number Two industry in this country.

I think that we have in Manitoba, as far as the tourist attractions and lakes that we have, sites that we have, historic centres, religious centres ... as the people developed western Canada, they went through this province, through Winn ipeg, so there are many, many things to see. I know that Lower Fort Garry, you talk to people and meet them anywhere in the world, that is one place they've seen, and they say it is a great tourist attraction that we have in our province.

Now I know it is a federal responsibility in that area, but surely I think that the Minister should include in one of his promotion for people coming here, one of the sites to take and see, because really when tourists come, there are two points: What is there to do, what is there to see, and perhaps the cost and the hotels. That is, in my opinion, what would concern me too. I wonder if our hotel rates are attractive as far as the tourist industry is concerned, because they are certainly much more. 2765

Friday, May 6, 1977 attractive across the line. And maybe this is why we have so many Winnipeggers on the weekends that can't find one unit - and there are many, many rooms in the City of Fargo and Grand Forks, particularly Fargo on the weekends, but there is no way you can find a room, even in the old hotels. You can't find a room in that city. So whoever is running the tourist operation for that city certainly is doing a great job. I would like to know what is the policy of the government in helping the private sector. As far as the government is concerned, what are they doing?

I think on this item, this is where we should be concerned. What is the government's policy and program development? What is it? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, the Honourable Member for Assiniboia is quite correct, primarily our Policy and Program Development Branch is involved in the various areas to which the honourable member made reference. I've listed all the questions put to me by the honourable member, and I think it would be preferable ifwew eret o deal with those items when we reach Tourism and Park Resources Division.

At that time I could respond to the honourable member on the questions that he raised with respect to the park on the east side of Lake Winnipeg. I could answer then specifically the questions that he raised with respect to the tourist industry.

Because at this point in time, if we would restrict our debate only to these branches from an administrative point of view rather than the specific details of government policy ... in other words, let's deal with the admin istration here, and with policy as it relates to park development, as it relates to tourism promotion, as it relates to cultural and recreational services, deal with that then, because the Policy and Program Development Branch works directly with all those branches, it offers a service to each one of them.

So therefore, I think to avoid duplication of debate, it would be better to answer those questions for the honourable member at that time. And for a second reason, when we reach the next two resolutions, I will then have the specific answers to some of the questions put by the honourable member when he asked for specific details as to some comparative analysis on the number of tourists arriving by car, number arriving by plane, length of stay, etc. That information I have and I will be able to provide it fully under the next two resolutions.

As I have indicated, the Policy and Program Development Branch deals with all branches in assisting them in developing departmental policy and programs and to ensure their effective achievements in relation to government policy and consumer population needs, so I think that that indicates that they would of course be working very closely with all operational branches of the department.

And then of course Research and Planning, it provides the long-range planning assistance, the central computer services for the department, as well as the development of measures and analysis of the output, the efficiency and effectiveness of governmental programs. And the Reserach and Planning Branch also, as I have mentioned, its prime function is to provide the type of reserach and developmental assistance to the operational branches of the department.

During the year just ended, efforts of this branch and planning work on the Red and Assiniboine Rivers were being developed into a cost-shared agreement for recreation-conservation between the department and Parks Canada to which I had made mention in my opening statement last night, and which agreement is in the process of being finalized. Im portant historic and recreation resources in close proxim ity to Winn ipeg wi ll be preserved through this program, and be developed for the recreational and educational benefit of Manitobans.

And work of this branch continues to assist the park planning function of the department through the provision of studies on the outdoor recreation needs of Manitobans, and to provide input from park users into the planning process. And Reserach and Planning continues to provide an information source on tourism and the travel industry in Manitoba in which marketing and development assistance decisions can be based. So it does do the things to which the Honourable Member for Assinib oia has alluded, but for the reasons that I have mentioned, Mr.

Chairman, I think that the questions put by the honourable member could more appropriately and more fully be answered when we reach the appropriations to which he made reference - Parks, Historical Resources, Tourist Branch, and then he made reference to the Cultural and Recreational Services Division - and answer those questions then. And under this resolution, if we would confine ourselves to the administration aspects of the General Administration Division of the Department . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BAN MAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to deal with certain aspects which I think should be dealt with under Policy and Program Development, and I think we should get from the Minister an overview of what he feels his department should be doing and is doing, and to that extent I would like to make a few Number One, I think there has been a question raised by many people in the province if we are becoming involved as, rather than a Tourism Branch, a Parks Branch. I think this is of concern to all the members in the Legislature and all the people in the province of Manitoba.

I think, what we want to do is we want to attract as many tourists as possible and especially in this time where our Manitoba 2766

Friday, May 6, 1977 economy is becoming somewhat stagnant, we need the funds which the tourist dollar will bring to Manitoba. The service industry, which tourism basically is, is a high ratio employment industry and visiting dollars from the United States, and I might to the Minister that if we see any further drop in the Canadian currency, it will make it more attractive for U.S. visitors to come up here and spend their dollars up here because they'll be getting a different rate on their money and be coming out ahead on that.

The future of the tourism industry, I think, is going to be tied in very closely with the type of facilities that we provide for people when they come in and because of high costs, such as problems that we have with certain hotel accommodations and that type of thing, I think that we are putting ourselves into somewhat of a negative position.

I think anybody that's been travelling through the States and through other provinces, find out that because of higher costs here people are charging slightly higher rates for several things and I wonder if the Minister's department has done any research or policy work with regard to that?

The thing, as mentioned by the Member for Assiniboia, that has to be done, and this is my belief, that we have to strengthen the operators that we have right now and we have to provide them with the type of leases and the type of facilities, as far as camping facilities, that will enable them to remain viable and do a proper job and attract these tourist dollars to Manitoba. The question I would like to ask under policy, Mr. Chairman, is: is the government intending to open any more lakes in the Whiteshell?

In other words, there are some lakes that could be opened up on a limited basis and I'm wondering if there is any move by the government to do anything in that regard. We do have a main artery running out there right now. We've got a four lane highway running into there to handle traffic, to handle weekend people that want to come out and enjoy the Manitoba outdoors and I'm wondering if we are planning, in our Policy Program, any further opening of facilities.

As the Minister knows, on a long weekend, whether it be at Falcon or West Hawk, you can call in on Friday afternoon to his department, the number that he's set up, or the radio stations which are co-operating, will announce that there's only one spot left at Falcon or two left at West Hawk. These are the type of facilities, I think, that not only the people of Manitoba require but when you've got a traveller coming through from either Ontario or from the States, they are finding it awfully hard on a busy weekend to find any place to even camp.

Not only does that cause problems but when you have a large concentration of people in one particular trailer park, I don't have to tell the Minister the problems that we've had down at Falcon Lake and several other lakes with overcrowding because then you start running into policing problems. You start running into all kinds of problems when you have a large concentration of people like that. So I 'm wondering if there is any policy development as far as providing new recreation facilities for the people in Manitoba.

I appreciate that we want to save some of our lakes for wilderness areas and for future generations, but I would also like to say that if there is a proper program of opening these lakes, not overcrowding them with cottages, I think that they can be used to the benefit of not only the tourist industry in Manitoba but also the people right here in Manitoba and it would help to establish a viable economy out in that area for the people who do want to run tourist camps and create their business over there. I wonder what the policy is with regard to marketing. Is our main concentration still the northern States?

Is that where most of our advertising dollar is being spent, geared at trying to attract people from Minnesota. Are we, in fact, going to be opening up an office in Denver? I understand there were some rumours that we might be opening up a tourist office in Denver. What is the future of the tourist office in Minneapolis which we have at present? So, with those few questions, I would like the Minister to inform us what direction we are taking with regard to more facilities. MR. HANUSC HAK: Mr.

Chairman, once again I would like to impress upon honourable members of the Opposition of this Committee that it is not my intention not to answer any of the questions, but I would like to impress upon honourable members that the questions, such as the ones raised by the Honourable Member for La Verendrye, could more appropriately be answered when we come to deal with the next two Resolutions and the honourable member's questions in particular when we come to the next Resolution, Tourism and Park Resources Division and at this point in time, if we could restrict our debate to questions that honourable members may have, on these branches from an administrative point of view.

Honourable members want to know costs- we ll, the figures are there, breakdown of costs, staff man years, so forth, I can provide that. But then, insofar as government policy direction, as it relates to the development of parks, as it relates to tourist promotion, to marketing and so forth, I think that that would better be dealt with when we come to the next resolution.

Now the comments that I made with respect to Resolution 10 6, it applies to the bulk of it, but then I note that there are three specific sub-appropriations namely, Translation Services which I suppose we must, if we wish to debate this, must debate this when we reach that point and the details of that program and similarly Film Classification Board and Grant Assistance which by and large is 2767

Friday, May 6, 1977 Northland Inn s and the Horse Racing Commission. So I have made a note of the honourable member's questions, the Honourable Member for La Verendrye and I do intend to answer them when we reach Tourism and Park Resources Division and the various sub-appropriations under which those questions could be answered. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Chairman, I would like to get back to my original question. I know the two areas that I am trying to seek the answers are Policy and Program Development and Research and Planning.

And what I' m asking is the type of research and planning the government is doing and what are the policies. I know that there is Administrative Services, Personnel Management, Translation Services, Manitoba Film Classification and Grants Assistance. I can't ask under those items. And then we have Tourism and Park Development. I know what parks are going to be developed. My questions are specific. What kind of policy the government has at the present time. What is the Minister and the department doing, are they really going out and trying to attract tourists? That's my specific question.

The thing is in the Estimates here everything is so closely related and the Minister is either not prepared or doesn't want to answer. I want to know what the policy is -(I nterjection) Well, can the Minister indicate what is the policy in the program development as far as the tourism industry is concerned? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. HANUSCHAK: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I could deal with the policy direction of government as it relates to tourism park resources division, as it relates to the management of the parks, as it relates to the operation of the parks, as it relates to special studies and projects as related to the parks. I could deal with policy direction of government as it relates to historic resources and the tourist branch and on through the next resolution. This is why, Mr.

Chairman, I had indicated to honourable members that insofar as the actual policy direction that government is giving my department in these areas, could be more appropriately dealt with when we come to those particular items and at no time did I indicate to the honourable member that I am reluctant to answer those questions. In fact, on the contrary, I assured him that I will answer them on each of these items. I assured him that I had made a note of his questions and I will answer them in specific terms when we come to each of those sub appropriations.

Now for the purposes of debate of this sub-appropriation, I will try this, Mr. Chairman, to indicate to him that research and planning assistance to the Parks Branch, this branch offers assistance to the Parks Branch for the preparation of a the provincial parks master plan and development of the park system's planning activity. And here again, having mentioned that, Mr. Chairman, that that's one of the activities of policy of Research and Planning, to go into the details of that, I think, Mr.

Chairman, you would agree would be more appropriate when we come to the next resolution - Assistance in the development of the Federal-Provincial Art Program in Manitoba. And there again, the details of that could be dealt with more appropriately under the next resolution. Research and planning assistance to the Public Library Services Branch in the development of public library standards, review of public libraries, budgeting procedures and financing formulas, development of a program for capital assistance to libraries.

And there again, that could be dealt with more appropriately under Resolution 10 8 when we come to dealing with libraries where that could be expanded upon. Research and planning assistance to the Community Recreation Branch in review of program for leadership training and recreation, review of current program of capital grants for recreation facilities with the objective of redesigning the present grant formula,, for assistance in other program planning activities for summer recreation program, summer recreation directors programs.

Research, planning and statistical services to the Tourism Branch and planning, marketing and advertising programs and measuring the effectiveness of promotional activities. I have mentioned this earlier, Mr. Chairman, that this is what is being done in this shop. Research and planning assistance to the Cultural Development Branch to review the corporate donations to the arts in Manitoba.

So again, having indicated the general range of activities of Planning and Research - and I would prefer to deal with the administrative aspect of these branches, as at this point in time - and then deal with the policy directives, the policy guidelines that government is offering when we come to the operational departments. And again, I ought to repeat, Mr. Chairman, that Research and Planning and Policy and Program Development, that this is a supportive function to the entire department and to the various operational branches within the department.

So therefore, the specific details of policy could better be dealt with when we get off General Administration and get down to the nitty-gritty, to the specifics of the operations of the various programs within the department. But again, I want to assure the honourable member that it is not my intention not to respond to the questions. I only, as I am sure, Mr. Chairman, you would not allow any repetition or duplication of 2768

Friday, May 6, 1977 debate, because if we allow ourselves to go into a debate of the points raised by the Honourable Members for Assiniboia and La Verendrye at this point in time, we would be running the risk of duplicating debate. Because then when we will come to Tourism, Parks Resources Division, when we will come to Cultural and Recreational Services Divison, you'll feel compelled, and of necessity, you will have to ask the same questions or touch upon many of the issues that you are raising now.

So I think that to keep the debate moving in an orderly fashion it would be best if we would presently, under this resolution, limit ourselves to debating the administrative aspects, and then go into policy under the next two resolution. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. WIL SON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have listened to the Minister with interest and one of the very reasons my two colleagues asked the question is because under futuristic direction and what we can expect, the Minister touches upon a suggestion that he has a master plan for parks.

So immediately in his opening remarks and immediately under this section, Research and Planning, we now know that the Minister has got a particular master plan for parks. We can then ask him when we get to that section, are we going to see it, what is the Minister's thoughts in this area? This is the type of thing we wanted. We're talking about a general overview, we're asking what, where, when and why, because it seems that when we get to these sections - that if the Minister stands up and gives us his thoughts now.

In his opening remarks yesterday he tal ked about the thrust of his government towards building more government cabins.

He talked I believe about Gri ndstone Park which is on the mainland near Hecla Island- I am not sure, but I think so - so that gives me the opportunity then, because as you know we don't have a window like the Minister does, and we don't have the supportative staff and Deputy Ministers that have the ready answers available.lt gives us time to then go in, because we now have the Minister's thoughts and we can go in and say, "How many more of these cabins are they going to build?" lt gives me tim e to make a phone call to the private sector and say, "Is there anything wrong with this new government policy of filling up all the provincial parks with log cabins?

Is there going to be any ongoing cost?" The Member for Assiniboia, asking like myself, we've got a service industry that is layingoff people, is crying for government direction. What's the reasons ? Can the Minister stand up and be really enthusiastic about the future if the devaluation of the Canadian dollar is there? What plans has he got to support the private sector because many of the people that have these facilities now are demanding some kind of support? They've got to strengthen the existing industry.

They seem to be in financial trouble because of costs, whether it be the cost of laundry, the cost of Hydro, whatever. So basically, under Research and Planning and Policy, I co uldn't agree with him more that the administrative people are offering assistance, but if these administrative people that are here today can help the Minister give us some futuristic thoughts . Are we going to open up new lakes? Are we going to cut back on admin istration? Are we going to close some particular resort areas? What is the future policy pertaining to that? That is what I am talking about.

I couldn't agree with him more, the ironed-out details could be dealt with under different sections, but I think under Policy and Research we have to look for some statements from the Minister like he gave in his opening comments which gives us the opportunity to question the Minister's remarks. I remember him saying that three of the most successful lodges up north were operated as native lodges; I know of one of them, Molson Lake is very successful.

That gives me the opportunity because of the Minister's statement to go out and maybe ask questions; who does own the lodges up north, how are these three lodges that the Minister talked about doing? Those are the types ofthings, by the Minister giving me his thoughts under Policy and Research allow me to then get into more depth so that when we get to the particular section, we can dot the i's and cross the t's MR. HANUSCHAK: Well, Mr.

Chairman, again I would like to point out to the Honourable Member for Wolseley that the type of questions that he is now asking, he is asking for specifics of various programs, and I must remind him again that Research and Planning offersas upportivefunction to all the branches listed in our Estimates Book, and that we will certainly give the honourable member all the time that he requires to check, to double-check with the private sector, with whomever else he would want to consult with in order to make as an effective a contribution to the debate of my Estimates as he may wish to make; so the opportunity will be there.

But I wish to repeat again that if I were to attempt to get into the details that the honourable member is asking for at this point in time, I will be forced to repeat the same thing all over again when we come to Tourism and Park Resources and when we come to Cultural and Recreational Services.

As I can recall the debate of the Estimates of other departments, , and the Committee examined the admin istrative mechanism then its input, because Research and Planning on its own does not make decisions, it does not implement programs, it does not devise programs, it offers a supportive function to the various branches and that is why it would be more appropriate to deal with government policy as it relates to all the points raised by the Honourable Member forWolseley and by other honourable members when we come to those two specific resolutions. 2769

Friday, May 6, 1977 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSO N: Well basically what I was trying to get at, and I agree with a lot of what the Minister is saying, but we in the opposition are trying our best under Policy and the Minister of Consumer Affairs had about six members of the opposition stand up and spend three days under Policy and Research. And the reason they did was because they wanted to know where the Minister was taking us in certain sections, whether it be rent control or whatever. We, in the opposition, and certainly my colleague here from La Verendrye, have talked about what everybody seems to realize except the Minister that somehow or other Parks

section of his department seems to be taking over the service tourism related

section and we feel that this particular policy - this future policy, the now policy of the Minister - is a wrong one and we're simply saying, "Put on the brakes and examine it." We could debate it under that

section but we're trying to get the Minister to confirm that he has a policy which is drifting towards the Parks rather than the Tourism

Section by the very placement of certain particular people under certain sections. And I couldn't agree more. So, fine, we'll deal with that when we get to it but to ask us to pass over Policy and Research which is a very important area because in that the Minister gives the thrust of where he is taking us. I'm very, very concerned and seriously about where our tourist industry is going. I talk about tourism underlined because there is definitely a role for the Parks Division.

But I think the two departments are uniquely separate; one is a job creator, a fee creator, a tourist dollar creator, the other is the pride that goes with being a citizen of this province to look at all the green areas and the parks and what have you. To me they're related but they definitely have two separate distinct roles to play and I think if you were to check with the private sector they would tell you that this Minister is taking us along a parks direction which is de finitely going to cause lost revenue in the tourist and service industry. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Minister. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Chairman, from listening to the last couple of comments made by the Honourable Member for Wolseley, I have the impression that the honourable member fears that if and when the committee approves these two sub-appropriations that they, in effect, would be thereby expressing their approval to government policy guidelines and directions. Well, I want to give the honourable member my assurance that that is not so; that at this point in tim e all that the com mittee will be giving its approval to is the administrative structure for these two support branches and not the policy direction that is being generated.

That we will deal with under the next two resolutions. We're merely giving approval to the administrative structure and then the details of the policy guidelines as they relate to each of the points raised by honourable members, that is a separate issue. We will deal with that under the next two resolutions. At this point in time we'll deal with the administrative structure. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 10 6(b)

(1) Salaries. The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRIC K: We're under (b)(1 ) now, Research and Planning? Mr. Chairman, I' m sure I'll be asking the right questions on this because I'm looking at the report dealing in the Research and Planning and the kind of work that the Research and Planning is supposed to do and is doing. So I'm sure that I'm on the right

section under the right item. My question is, and this is the type of work that the Research and Planning is doing so I'm asking the Minister: can he give us some indication of the number of tourists that come to Manitoba in automobi les and the number of tourists that come in airplanes and trains. it's right here; that's under this item. That's what the Research and Planning is doing. I'm not finished. I have some more questions. I also would like to know what is the peak time of the travel fortourists.ls it in May or is it in June, or is it in Ju ly?

Perhaps the Minister can also- because this is what the Research and Planning are doing, it's right in the report here so I' m sure that I'm on the right item -w hat are the occupancy levels of our facilities that we have? I' m not so much concerned with the City of Winnipeg but perhaps in rural parts and in some of our parks. The occupancy levels; are they full or is it strictly the week end? My other question is: has the Minister got the inventory of accommodation throughout the whole province? Agai n, I'm indicating to the Minister this is what Research is doing. MR.

HANUSCHAK: . . . to the various branches of the department and I'll give the honourable member the answer for those questions. I don't know how many ti mes I have to assure and reassure the honourable member that the answers will be forthcoming under these branches. Surely the honourable member can wait. MR. PATRICK: Can the Minister give us an indication under what item he will give us this information because this is ... MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Chairman. Yes, Mr. Chairman, I will repeat again ... MR. PATRICK: Under what item. MR.

HANUSCHAK: Yes, I wi ll repeat again; the honourable member ... Let me refer back to my 2770

Friday, May 6, 19n notes. The honourable member wants statistical data on tourist flow and whether they arrive by automobile, by plane, etc., and how long they stay here, the peak seasons and so forth. That information I will be able to provide the honourable member on Page 59 under (2) (

d) Tou rist Branch. We will have that information there. The honour able member wants to know what is being done by way of attracting tou rists. That also will be available under the same appropriation. The honour able member wants to know what is being done insofar as park development on the east side of Lake Winnipeg, insofar as the develop ment of the park, insofar as building of roads, lodge, and so forth. That information will be available under Capital. There might be something included in the operational costs under the Provincial Park System under (2)(b).

The honour able member was also concerned about grants to cultu ral events; that is under Reso lution 3 or 10 8 on the next page. And the policy direction of government will be given at that time. So I'm merely saying, and surely, Mr . Chairman, that isn't all that difficult to understand, that at this point in time we're dealing with the administrative structure of these support branches. I repeat, they offer support service to the operational branches of the department and I will deal to whatever extent honour able members would want me to, with the policy guidelines of government as they relate to those areas.

Planning and Research offers a support service to these various branches so I'll deal with them then. MR. PATRICK: I'll try again. I have perhaps a little different question. Did the Research and Planning do any kind of evaluation and research on the present promotional material that we have, on the pamphlets and all that? I don't know where else I can ask: Did the research review all our promotional material and our course of action that we are undertaking? Have they made any recommendations or said that some changes should be made in the type of promotion that we are doing? I hope I'm right now under this ...

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Minister. MR. HANUSCHAK: You know, Mr. Chairman, thattoo can be dealt with in detail under the Tourist Branch but at the risk ... -(I nterjection)- Now the Honourable Member for La Verendrye says, "fo rget it." I'm not suggesting anything ought to be forg otten . I' m simply trying to point out to honourable members that there is an appropriate time and place for different questions that honourable members are raising.

But at the risk of having to repeat myself - because I will have to repeat myself when we come to Tourist Branch - my answer to the Honour able Member for Assiniboia is yes, we do do that type of study and analysis of the effectiveness of promotional material.

In fact, insofar as the newspaper and magazine advertising is concerned, particularly advertisements which contain the tear-off or cut-off coupon which they mail in, these are all coded as to date and the sou rce from which they come so we know when the most effective periods of time are for certain types of advertising. lt enables us to evaluate the effectiveness of the type of advertising that we do at that given time and that local ity and this is a continuous assessment and review that is being done, really, on an ongoing basis from year to year. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The hour being 12 :30, I'm leaving the Chair to return at 2:30 this afternoon.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-4-55a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 4th hansardpdf 55a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	ec59869a538e0e09989e6a94117cb107fbf5c252

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).