Manitoba Committee Hansard — 30 May 1977 (Legislative Affairs Committee, Sitting 6, 30th Legislature, 4th Session)

30-4-la6

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Le gislative Assembly of Manitoba HEARING OF THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON LAW AMENDMENTS Chairman Mr. William Jenkins Constituency of Logan MONDAY, Ma y 30, 1977, 8:00p.m. Printed by P.N. Crosbie- Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba

liE: 8:00 p.m. !AIRMAN: Mr. William Jenkins Law Amendments Monday, May 30, 1977 MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. We have Councillor Evelyne Reese, Councillor Reb chuk, St. niface Chamber of Commerce (Mr . Maurice Prince), Councillor Magnus Eliason, Councillor nry Kozlowski, Councillor Bill Nor rie, Councillor Ji m Ernst, Councillor Mor ris Kaufm an, uncillor Fran k Jo hnson, Mr . Patte rson, Ur ban Dev el opment In stitute (Don Ellis and C. N. shner) , Housing and Ur ban Deve lopment (S. Kahn and C. N. Kushner ) re Multi Fam ily Council, )fessor E. Arthur Braid, and Pat Yarema. Councillor Reese. MS.

EVEL YNE RE ESE: Mr . Chairman, Mem bers of the Board, I would like to address myself to ;Jin with, to a comment that was made by Councillor Bockstael in regard to the French fact in St. niface. I find it is rather strange that a councillorthat has been el ected by not only the French peop le of St. niface, finds it possible to come and say that Tache Ward is re ally a French ward. I would like to nind this committee that St.

Boniface was always the home of all the people who chose to live in tt community. lt is not only the home of the French people; it is the home of the English, the French , l Scots, the Ir ish who first settled St. Boniface, and then all the other people who arrived erwards. I am not about to be segregated. I am of French origin; I come originally from Quebec. My own nily on both sides, my parents on both sides, mom and dad, had arrived in the late 16 00s in the )Vi nce of Quebec and I do not belie ve that the Province of Quebec, the majority does not want to be rt of Canada. I do not bel ie ve that St.

Boniface French-C anadians do not want to be part of St. niface and want to be seg regated. I think we already have enough of a problem with Quebec :hout creating one with St. Boniface with Tache Ward. I really feel that it is an insult to the other pe ople who have come to St. Boniface and have :abl ished themselves there and that it would be sort of discrimination, prej udice, to disregard the 1er et hnic groups that have contributed to the history and the development of St. Boniface.

I feel ·y uptight and a lot of anger at that type of attempt to seg regate us and I think SFM may want a )a rate school syste m, may want to be segregated, but it's not the majority of the French people that nt to be seg reated. I do hope that if Councillor Bockstael feels that way, that he exp resses it as his •n individual opinion and as a Belgian, he cert ainly does not represent the French people of St. •niface and I wonder now if he is repres enting anybody from St. Boniface when he does not give :og nition as an el ected rep resentative that other groups also have developed St. Boniface.

No w I will continue with my own brie f that I have prepared. As an ele cted representative of the micip al Government of the City of Winnip eg, of St.

Bon iface Community Committee and of nakwa Ward, it is my resp onsibil ity to point out objectively to this government that it has a moral ligation to live up to its commitments to the community committees and its people; that it has a ;pons ibility to protect and improve the process of democr acy at the municipal level of govern ment ; d that it must ident ify and resolve the problems that have arisen which prevent this government m fulfilling its commitments if it wants to continue to be cred ible in the eyes of the public.

Bill 62 as presented does not achie ve any of the above objectives but worse still, it reduces the mocratic process to a minimum level. The concerns of the el ected representatives, the mayor and l councillors, are for more power in the hands of a few while the concerns of the citizens are ewise for more power.

That is, they want a govern ment of the people, by the people and for the ople by having better representa tion, an effective say in the affairs of thei r local government, �ater responsiveness and accountability of the el ected representati ves to the people and by eping local government acce ssible and close to the people as we ll as keep ing its own community mmittee's identity. More and more peo ple are vie wing Bill 62 as the second phase of this government's hidden enda.

Many are que stioning the hon esty and sincerit y of this government when it introduced its w concept of one city with a system of community committees with the strong commitment that, "lt nnot be empha sized too strongly at this poin t that no effort would be spared in making the undaries of these wards as accurately as possible a re flection not merely of exis ting municipal undaries but of the es tablished local, historical, traditional and familiar community groupings." In addition, this government further ex plained on the same page of the White Paper, Page 13 , "The ject of this adherence to the familiar is obviously to strengthen local character and identity rather tn to have them obliter ated in the process of unification." Bill 62 ignores this strong commitment made to the previous municipal areas who at the time, c:ept for Winnip eg proper, rejected the concept of one city for fear of the loss of community input d comp lete loss of its autonomy over its local affairs which unfortunately happened , as pred icted.

Fi nance Minister Sau l Chernia ck at the time denied, on Febr uary 27th, 19 71 as reported in the 151

Law Amendments Monday, May 30, 1977 Free Press, "The Provincial Government's central city plan was the same as total amalgamation E stressed the importance of the role of the community committees under the proposal for reorganization of urban government in Gr eater Winnip eg. The Min ister was rep lying to stateme made by the Liberal leader, Mr. Asper, and pointed out that the community committees wo function in a manner similar to the then municipal councils. Mr .

Chern iack also den ied saying t the community committees would be scrapped if they failed to work and stressed that one ofthe v, important parts of the whole presentation is the community committee." On the surface it wo appear that this gove rnment and its Min ister, Mr. Chern iack, planned this deception since Bill6 2 in proposal of the six eng inee ring districts as the six new com munity committees doesn't give � recog nition or consideration to the above commitments and guarantees given to the previ( municipal areas.

This turnabout would be under standable if we were deal ing with a new government but Bill 6: proposed by the same government which was in power six years ago and with very few chan! having taken place with regard to its ele cted representatives, that is the ML As and Cabi net Min istE Is this an overreac tion to pressu res of the municipal administration, the incumbent mayor 01 some IC ECs or is this turnabout due to pressu res app lied by the incumbent mayor and the elec representatives of the previous municipality of Winnip eg or Metro?

In the Riel Re port by Don Craik, the ML A for Riel, published in the Southeast Lance dated fo. 25th, 19 77, it would appear that there is some truth to these alle gations. The Member for Riel sta1 "When Uni city was first formed, it was accomplished by the NDP government primarily because tl were supp orted in that move by Mayor Ju ba who had been a long-time vociferous advocate of sue move. lt was, in"most instances, suburbs versus central city political battle principally because m suburbs were en joying good representative local government and relating efficient services.

And people were, in the majority, satisfied with the system . But central Winnip eg and the Mayo1 parti cular were not satisfied for many reasons, with the status quo, �nd when the NDP governmE with heavy representa tion in thei r ranks, from central Winnip eg, moved to form one large cit� common cause was formed with the Mayor. The original le gislation to form Unici ty provided for Mayor to be ele cted from and by the council, not by the citizens at large.

But this was change( accommodate Mayor Jub a's opposi tion to this position and to reta in his goodwill and suppor Is it possible that one man has become such a formidable institution that all political parties prepared to sacrifice the communities and its people to have his support?

Many more ver sions car put forth to ex plain why this government has suddenly changed its policies and commitments fr better representa tion for the people to less and poorer representa tion for the people, by a dra decrease of councillors; from greater citizen participation and involvement with local governmen1 less by re ducing the le vel of autonomy at the local level and increa sing the size of commw committees.

From greater responsiveness and accountability to the people to a minimum deg re1 responsiveness and accountability to the people by reducing the number of councillors, Commu1 Committees, functions and autonomy.

And from more effective sayforthe citizens atthe commUI level in the policies and programs which affectthem, to less say by maki ng the election of council I mean ingless since Community Committee councillors have effect ively no say in the affairs 1 affect local communities and are outnumbered by the central council, whose majority know li about the local needs of other communities, and cannot be voted out by the communities which h been affected by thei r decisions.

Since councillors are not el ected at large, they cannot be held accountable through democratic voting process, hence, no one in particular can be held res ponsible for the policies i decision -maki ng process. Since a councillor can support his or her own community at the local h and at central council, or reverse his or her vote without anyone kno wing about it, or without hi her vote on the local issue making any difference at all. Since no party system officially exi sts. such party can be voted out, hence, the concept of accountability has been unknowingly comple destroyed.

A possibility would be to elect councillors for central council at large, so that they would al res ponsible and accountable to al l the citizens of Winnip eg.

However, this is unreal istic since would elimi nate most pe ople from running as councillors due to cost and time involved , and it we even further destroy the sense of community ident ity and create more apathy. lt would seem that only two options are presently possible, to re turn more functions and decisi making to the local communities, or to formalize the informal groupings such as the IC EC, who h been in power for many years but still refuse, as a group or party, to present policies and program an electoral platform to the voters.

Ne ither have they open ly formulated any long-range policie present to council, nor have they provided any leadership' although they do hold the majorit: positions;on all standing committees of council, as we ll as all the positions on the Executive Po Committee. The incumbent mayor and the IC Cs have refused to publicly commit themselve policies and programs, and that has been one of the major problems of city government, 152

der lesss.

Law Amendments Monday, May 30, 1977 How long with will the pe ople of Winnip eg have to put up with this a system that allows the ele cted ,resentati ves to be in the unusual position of not having to account and be res ponsible to the Jple, and now ask to not have to be respo nsible and accountable to the Provincial Government, o has to pick up the tab whene ver the City wishes to embark on large project s; but on the other r'ld, does not want to be respo nsible for the increase in taxes. lt is the refore easy to understand why �City of Winnip eg has been controlled by the same group since its very beg inning, and even more >Y to see why the Mayor has been able to be re-elected for the past 20 years, as the system does not Id the mayor, nor any individual councillor or group of councillors, accountable and re spons ible the decisi ons made.

Why isn't Bill 62 deal ing with that major issue which is the most crucial for the preservat ion of mocracy? Hence, what is needed is a change of the system and not just a numbers game with 1cted rep resentatives and Community Committees, which resolves nothing. Most presenta tions ve dealt with the magic word, "p ower". However, no one has dealt with the res ponsibil ities that ::h powers ent ail for those who hold these powers.

We have also heard the concerns of the el ected >resentatives, those who have been given the power to govern by the ele ctors, but not enough has en said on behalf of those who are bei ng governed, the electors, and how the y have been affected the present Unic ity Act and will be by Bill 62. These should be the two major and central factors of the hearing in order to arrive at a just and fair >tri bution of powers, resp onsibilities, responsiveness and accountability. Therefore, at this point I I deal with each separately.

The modern world that we live in, wher e interdependence has become vital and essential for rvival, should make us all realize that the sharing of powers and respon sibili ties, co-operation and ;pect for the individual are the major ingredi ents to provide the kind of socie ty where harmony can ist, and where all sectors and levels of socie ty are treated in a just manner, while respect ing each lir right to their identities, differences and self-determ ination.

The one -city concept was truly brought about to bring on this co-operati on in order to deal with l major prob lems of the inner core, and not for the suburbs. This major problem has not yet been alt with, and now there is another atte mpt in Bill 62 to attack the problem, but at the expense of the ople, by cutting and taking away thei r identity to thei r communities, by forcing them to develop w affiliations and loyalties. When neighb ourhoods or communities become too large, people don't ther and become stranger s to each other.

This app roach, besides creating apathy, will not resolve the problems of the inner core. This Jblem exis ts in all large urban centr es, and it is too comp lex and costly to be resolved by putting all l powers in the hands of a municipal government alone, who wishes to have no system of countability to another level of government or to the pe ople. A tri-le vel committee of the three 'els of government with equal representa tion must share the powers and financial respo nsibil ities cessary to renovate the inner core, with no particular le vel of government having more power than y others.

That would include zoning and the development plans. I disagree with the developm ent of a third level of government with all the powers of taxation and rrowing, as have the sen ior levels of government. This would only result with another level of ve rnment and bureauc racy which would feed its growth and expans ion at the expense of the cpayers, not discounting the increase in duplication of services. Therefore, it is not only ridiculous t most unreal istic to attempt to create a municipal government comple tely autonomous in the ,rid that we live in today.

Such comple te autonomous decentralization of powers only leads to larization, se tting one force against another, instead of having to arrive at a consensus when all wers are eq ual. One must never forget, also, that all levels of government govern the same people and all are pposedly ele cted to govern for the people's best interest, the refore this can only happen with nsultation and co-opera tion of the three levels of government.

Ideal ly, the functions, resp onsibil ities and powers of the three levels of government should be 1iewed with the ide a of improving consultation and co-opera tion and the result would be an prove ment of the democr atic system and its effect iveness. In terms ofthe effects of The City of Winnip eg Act on the citizens, it must first be said that the over ntralization of functions and decision- making that took place was never the inte ntion of the vernment as exp ressed in the White Paper.

Henc e, the resp onsibility of the costly reorgan ization all services into engi neeri ng districts must lie with the administration, the mayor, and the ele cted uncillors. The concentration of decision -making at central level has made local government more note from the pe ople. In addition, it has made all councillors responsible for matters that have no ect on adjacent communitie s or the city at large.

On the other hand, it creates the need for 1plo yees to produce a need le ss volume of paperwork and to process it. lt is only reaso nable for the administration and the standing committees to give greater attention what is most critical to the city at large rather than to the faceless individual who has applie d maybe purchase a narrow strip of land between two adjacent properties or a closed lane, etc. The 15 3

Law Amendments Monday, May 30, 1977 attention and time given to the individual's problems from all over the city, when dealing w delegations and an agenda that can be from one to two inches thick one after noon or one morni per week, is minimal. Even when it gets dealt with, the administration must also prior ize and again t faceless individual takes the back seat. This is not meant to criticize councillors or civic emplo yees but to illustrate how the fe� exp ressed by prev ious municipal areas have been realized.

Ther e have been numerous hassles on council floor by the majority of councillors regard ing t lack of consultation with the community committees on strictly local matters.

Since it is no Ion� feasible to decentralize the districts, I would suggest that each of the twelve community committe be assigned some of the personnel from either the district or central administration to specifica attend to the people's needs that are of a local nature which shouldn't req uire the appr oval o standing committee or of central council, since community committees are also legal committees council which should have specific functions to fulfill with correspo nding authority to do so.

Let me illustrate with a few documented cases so that you may apprecia te the problems oft everyday citizen and his frustrations. I do not wish to bore you with these details but they need to said. Since 19 74, resi dents of Speers Road and Durham Bay have attempted to purchase the lane tt was closed on August 28th, 19 61 , by Bylaw No. 4281 of the former City of St. Boniface. Un fortunate it was discovered that the city solicitor at the time had never carried out the dire ctions of St. Bonifa City Council as specified in the bylaw. Since 19 74 the St.

Boniface Community Committee I"' consistently reco mmende d that the directives and provisions of the bylaw be imple ment ed at least seven occasions: July 22, 19 74, December 19 , 19 74, March 10, 19 75, April 26, 19 75, October 14 , 19 � Jan uary 12 , 19 76 and again on Janua ry 26, 19 76. Despite the factthat

Section 67, Su bsect ion 2o fT City of Winnip eg Act provides for actions that were pe nding by area municipalities, could continue d under the part or provisions of the municipal charter concerned until the comple tion of 1 action or proceed ings, this parti cular problem re mains unresolved. Most residents fronting Spe1 Road have, since 19 61 , fenced and improved the en tire lane as part oftheir properties. However, t• residents fronting Durham Bay in 19 74 decided that they were entitled to half of the lane under1 new Un icity Act. Fi nance Standing Committee has chosen to ignore St.

Boniface Commun Committee's rec ommendations and to do nothing. This has not satisfied anyone. Councillors have a respon sibili ty to resolve issues and a moral obligation towards the citizem make decisions . We are in 19 77, and citizens are still reques ting that a decision be made in regarc the St. Boniface bylaw. Had St. Boniface Community Committee been given the authority to ac this matter and such matters, this problem would not still be ar ound after four years as all councillors were unanimous in their rec ommendation.

Another case was the request to purchase a walkway which was no longer useful since · construction of Lagimodiere Boulevard. Again, this has been tossed around since Ju ne, 19 Appr oved by all the departments of the administration and by St. Boniface Community Committ but turned down by the Envir onment Standing Committee which has no representa tion from Boniface. Residents concerned are still waiting for an answer to thei r request. I had two calls on t request today. The same happened with a 22-foot right-of-way on Dug as Street.

A request was received in AI of 19 75 and the reason given for not attending to it was that it had not been properly diarized retrieval and was file d in error and not brought forward. The citizen's appl ication was ne acknowledge. However, when an important deve lopme nt comes along, five bylaws can be passed simultaneo ly and all the background work and public heari ngs can be done in a record time of five months. T was the case involving the surplus lands of the Royal Canadian Mi nt. Bylaws 101 3-75 to 101 7-75 w all passed at one council mee ting.

However, the Neighbo urhood Im provement Program area nortt Provenc her Boulevard and the re zoning bylaws req uired in five different sectors are all de separat ely. lt has taken over three years to do the planning and the necessary work and it is still I completed . The resi dents have been frustrated in their efforts by both the Envir onment and Executive Policy Committees. Despite the fact that the residential area north of the CNR high I was included in the Neighbour hood Im prove ment Program, Bylaw No. 965-375 was pas!

Sept ember 17 , 19 75, ex cluding the resi dential area north of the high line without being readvert is contrary to Secti on 615, Subsect ion 4 as outlined by the Di rector of Planning on Ju ne 13, 19 7 The residents who were dep rived of a second public heari ng, which should have made t amend ment public information, felt outraged and informed the Minis ter of Ur ban Affairs.

Fortunat the province's app roval of zoning bylaws is given only if it complie s with the City Act; hence, res idents have the Minister of Ur ban Affairs to thank for not approving the exc lusion of the res iden area north of the high line. However, it appear ed that the resident advisory groups, the commur committees and the individual councillors did not have the right to communicate with other le veh government and I have copies of the directions as sent, stating that we haven't got such rigt 15 4

Law Amendments Monday, May 30, 1977 ::or ding to both the Deputy Mayor and the Chie f Commissioner directives to the city clerks. These ectives were made void by an Order of Council. lt is sad, however, to have reached the day that a civic emplo yee or one elected representative lieve that they can dictate and set policies for the entir e council.

Obviously, central council and its mding committees spend far too much time on details and not enough on the development of licie s and guidelines. lt is still city policy to deny the res ident advisory groups to communicate and make their views own to other communities, standing committees of council and to all other levels of government ·ough the community clerks' offices.

The services of the cler k to take the minutes of the re sident visory group meeti ngs are also denie d despite the fact that all community committee local matters � dealt by the resident advisers and their recommenda tions then become reports made to the mmunity committee council mee tings. Those reports, aside from the communications received d delegations, make up almost the en tire agenda of the community committee's council meeti ngs. 1is change was made only recently on May 4t h, 1977, by central council. So instead of facilitating the input of citizens, it is being made more difficult.

The same appl ies to cess for information. In the last three years that I have been a councillor, it has been extremely 'ficult, and most of the time impossible, for resident advisers to have both copies forthe total city's pital and operati ng budgets, thus enc ouraging a narrow parochialism. Un less Bill 62 is more specific in defining the role of the advisers, the facilities, the resources and cess to information that they are entitled to have, thei r inter ests will totally be destroyed by council, �king it difficult for them to operate and by increa singly rest ricting the ir freedom of exp ress ion.

Another type of problem which is not clear in the Act is the interv ention of other communities in e local affairs of spe cific communities. This type of conflict is even less acceptable by residents of a mmun ity and brings about resentment and hostility. A case in point: On April 23, 1976, the Board of )mmissioners requ ested St. Boniface Community, as well as the Transcona Community, to gge st names for the industrial park in St. Boniface. The Transcona Resident Advisory Group and 1uncillors referred the matter to the St. Bon iface Community as this development is exclusively thin their boundaries.

However, one res ident of St. Boniface who did not agree with the name commended by the St. Boniface Community Committee, wrote to Transcona to recommend 10ther name. Over this issue, some resident advisers have lost interest and have re signed. May I sugge st that the naming of the streets, buildings or parks be en tir ely left to the authority of 1mmunity committees with the guideline that it may not duplicate a name used in another 1mmunity. I have de alt with the most unple asant aspects of the effects that the present City Act has created 1d that Bill 62 would only amplify.

However, these are the realitie s that must be made known. I would tve liked to also stress the positive aspects of the Act. However, with such a short time to do so, arid tving already acknowledged these in my brie f to the Taraska Commission, I wish to reite rate that e one-city concept was one way of dealing with the disparities but it does not have to do it at the :pense of the community's identities and its pe ople. Man does not live on bread alone. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Councillor Reese. There may be some questions that honourable embers have. Are there any ques tions? Mr. Patrick. MR.

PATRICK: Councillor Reese, I missed the first part of your presenta tion. Did you make any >int on the reduction of council or are you satisfied that the council should be reduced to 28 or 30? MS. REESE: De finitely not. I think perhaps if this government wants to satisfy some of the mours or the scream ings towards red uction, I think it could give them some reduction to satisfy 1me people or I wo uld say mostly city councillors - and it cert ainly would not be an advantage of e electors - however, I wo uldn't go beyond 36. I think that's the minimum that anyone can go to. MR.

PATRICK: You also indicated that you would like to see the council and mayor have more >wers. Can you indicate ... MS. REESE: I have not indicated such; I have said that the problems that ... MR. PATRICK: Be more accountable - you used the words "mor e accountable." MS. REESE: Yes, a system where it makes everyone more accountable. In the present system it is 1p ossible for the ele ctors to vote out anyone at this present time in particular, because everyo ne aims, we are inde pendent.

You know, the total council at large is responsible for whatever happens lre whether as an individual councillor I voted against it or not. Nobody wants to stand on his feet 1d say, "I stand for this." And so we pass the buck and we convenie ntly get off the floor when we >n't want the public to know how we are going to vote. We go out for coffee. I think some of you 1ould come and sit and obser ve how this council oper ates and you would have an idea whal: ippens.

I do think unle ss we have either more say at the local level where the agendas of the standing >mm ittees are not from one to two inche s thick and dealing with all kinds of details where rerything has to be funnelled ther e and there's a bottleneck and months and months of waiting, that e standing committees should be ther e to estab lish the policies and the guidelin es for the 15 5

Law Amendments Monday, May 30, 1977 community committees or any such committee that has been given authority or to administration, to administrate those. But not to deal"with"it in detail as we do. I think it's tot! ridiculous to have a one-city concept the size of that city and attempt to deal with it in the same wa>y you are dealing with a small town of 10,000 people. lt's just ridiculous and I do not bel ie ve that· central council should have taken all the functions and powers that it has. All it has done is creat government that is no longer close to the people. · MR. PATRICK: What about planning?

Are you concerned that the government agencies will I apply to city planning or is that a concern? MS. REESE: Okay, in planning, to me the areas where the municipal government hasn't ! sufficient funds and resou rces to be able to rehab ilitate the centre core, areas wher e there is a ne for senior levels of government to be involved, that when that kind of need is requested, then th1 should be - ther e are only two levels of governmen t that are called upon, the municipal a provincial - ther e should be a committee that consults and deci des.

Not a negotia ting commit that sees the other side as the opposition, the enemy, and this side , let's get as much as we want. T kind of attitude does not make for good government and that's the kind of attitude that we've got ne Anything that happens, the scapegoat is the gove rnment, is the Act, is the Minis ter so-and-so. 1 finger is always pointed elsewhere but towards the Council and what res ponsibil ities they h1 towards it.

So I do feel, and strongly, that in today's world where we are so interdependent, that too m� autonomous, completely autonomous governments, with all the same people to govern, we, 1 taxpayers, are going to have to feed all those levels, and often wasted money because contradictory policie s. One fights the other and undoes what another government does. Th1 should be conti nuity. In this way we are not having it, in the present Bill 62. MR. PATRICK: Thank you Councillor Reese. MR. CHAIRMAN: Any further questions? Hearing none, thank you Councillor Reese. Council Reb chuk. MS.

REESE: Sorry, could I leave these files so that if anyone wanted to check them, that they 1 facts. MR. CHAIRMAN: Do you want them back? MS. REESE: No. MR. CHAIRMAN: Councillor Reb chuk. St. Boniface Chamber of Commerce, Mr. Maurice Prin MR. PRINCE: Mr . Chairman, members of the Committee - Power in the Hands of a Few - C councillor said Winnip eg City Council is a massive horrendous machine and should be reduced to or less councillors.

He also added, and I quote: "H ere we are saying let's keep it big, let's ke everybody confused." He conclude d by saying, "Bi gness is not goodne ss." Gentlem en, I cer tainly interp ret power in the hands of a few as bei ng synonymous to Bigness a undemocratic to say the least. To that councillor's way of thinking, why not reduce Bigness to · decisions made by one man only. That system would certa inly be efficient ... .. but then, is this not wl dictatorship is all about? I have a sick feeling that such a system would cost us our freed om.

The k1 of freedom of choice we are entitled to and inher ent to the democr atic system. I have her e a letter or a short brief that was presented to the Council of the City of Winnip eg by· Chamber. I wish to inform you of its contents: "Si nce the inception of Uni city and its reo rganization of the pre vious municipalities into districts, we of the executive of the Chamber of Commerce of St. Boniface have noticed a mar� erosion in the identity of the various Communities forming the City of Winnip eg.

"The various levels and quality of services once enjoyed by our res idents under the previc administration of former municipalities, has been replaced by a less efficient, costlier and m1 complicated, impersonal syste m. "We bring to the atten tion of the Council of this City of Winnipeg. 1 - The snow removal on our reg ional and residential streets, lanes and sidewalk system in 1 communities. 2 - Refuse Colle ction. 3- Sewer and Water Works. 4- Police Protec tion. 5 - Fir e Protec tion. 6 - Parks and Recreation and Libraries.

Not to mention other services that form part of the orderly growth and development of a v, structured community. "The District concept has brought to our Community a costlier and less efficent imperso system. Policemen, Fir emen, Garbage Colle ctors, Water and Sewer Repairmen, who were or completely familiar with the installations and needs of local residents, have been replaced b' rotating staff that cannot ever give us an efficient system that would stem the tide of ever increas taxation. 15 6

Law Amendments Monday, May 30, 1977 "The Di strict system" - and this gentleman, Councillor Bockstael made a remark to the effect at that was coming. "The District system will warrant in the near future headquarters for Police, re, Welfare, Parks and Recr ea tion, Works and Operations in each District, thus changing what was 1ce traditional and familiar to each local Community and which formed the very basis for the anitoba Government Proposal for the Reorganization of Greater Winnip eg under a central Council. "Mr.

Chairman, if our tax rev enue ser ved to promote the local communities instead of Empir e Jilding, this City could become the Greatest City on the continent, because we have here what tnnot be found elsewhere and unfortunately our Council is being railroaded by po licy into the strict concept which is in fact destroy ing what was once the pride of Man itoba, our communities." Mr. Chairman, Mem bers of the Law Amend ments Committee, our Communities are accused of 1roch ialism. We ask you: What about New York City with its Manhattan, Brooklyn, The Bronx, ueens, Long Isla nd and so on?

Why must Winnip eg be different and destroy the Communities that made it so that it can grow? We are saddened to hear an inference that St. Boniface is but a few streets around a church. ent lemen, we beg to differ. The crest of our Community adopted by the Town of St. Boniface By-Law in 18 83 attests to the et that St. Boniface had at that time as its residents people from different countrie s of the world. The crest has the tudor rose to represent the English, the thistle for the Scots, the clover for the sh, the fleur de lis for Canadians of French exp ress ion.

The maple leaf encom passes the whole eludin g future arrivals of other et hnic groups to our community. The arrival of Belg ians, Polish, krainians, Germans, Ital ians, indicate clearly the composition of our Community. Our residents of French exp ress ion re side throughout our Community. it is our home and the >me of every et hnic group that came to our Community, by choice, to re-estab lish thems elv es in is country. I can assure you, Mr .

Chairman, and mem bers of the Committee, that the Honourable Minis ter of jucation knows fully wel l by the educational system that our children of French descent atte nd stitutions of learn ing throughout our Community, City and Province. it is sad indeed to find representatives who, by choice, ignore the history and the development of e communities and the people they represent. In ke eping with the tradition of the St.

Boniface Chamber of Commerce, since its formation in 11 1, to work and to promote sound legis lation and efficient administration at the Municip al, ·ovincial and Federal levels of Government, we present this brief and its reco mmendations in an fort to make known to the Municip al and Provincial Governments the opin ions of its member s and general of the community at large. Bill 36, that is, The City of Winnip eg Act passed on July 27, 19 71 , was an attempt to come to grips ith the fact that over half of Manit oba's population lived in one urban area governed by a two-tier ·stem of municipal government.

As stated in the government's White Paper, entitled "P roposals for Ur ban Reor ganization in the reater Winnip eg Area", individual citizens and developme nt investors alike became confused and ten exasperated in any attempt to unravel the comple x lines of authority. The problems as entified in the above government's paper were as follows:

(1) The previous area municipalities and The Metropolitan Corporation of Greater Winnip eg ced limited powers in that although Metro had planning authority, it had very limited dev elopmen t >wers. This had been clearly identified by the following studies made by the Greater Winn ipeg ves tigating Committee (1 955-59 ), the Gumming Commission (1 96 4), the Mic hener Commission 964) , the Man itoba Local Government Boundaries Commission (1 966-7 0), and others.

(2) Control of services was divided, and the power to make decisions and carry them out was :�.gment ed .

(3) A wide disparity in the quality and level of services ex isted between one municipality and 1other.

(4) Tax revenues from a given industry accrued to the municipality in which it was located -t o the �trimen t of the areas from which the industry drew its labour force.

(5) Fr agmenta tion of the tax base and fragmentation of the total resou rces available to the 1mmunity resulted in individual areas being unable to mount the kind of programs their citizens mted and needed.

(6) Social ills, hence social costs which tend to concentr ate in the core area were borne almost 1tirely by taxpayers in the central area.

(7) The core area which provides a wide variety of cultural, recrea tional and entert ainmen t ::: ilities, was the responsi bility of the municipality in which they were located. The conclusion arrived at was that almost all of the urban area's difficultie s stemmed mainly from ree main factors - fragmented authority, segmented financial capacity, and lack of citizen �olvement. The City of Winnip eg Act was presented as a new concept to resolve the above problems through 157

Law Amendments Monday, May 30, 1977 unification of all the muncipalitie s under Metro. lt proposi!ld the unification·of all'the major local services undera' single adminis tration and to kee the local governmentdecentral ized through a system of Community Committees.

The major concept stressed throughout the government's White Paper was expressed th us: "I Greater Winnip eg is in fact to become a better community, a better place in which to live and wor and play, it is essential that every effort be made, not merely to improve the quality of loc� government, but to see to it that, in any new governmental form, the citizens of Greater Winnip eg i truth can and do have an effective say in the policie s and programs which affect them." Ther efore, it was deemed essent ial that no municipal area of Community should be less tha three representatives as the Community Committees would have "su bstantial administrativ respons ibilities and powers" at the local level.

In addition, it stated that the Community Committee would have important and permanent duties too onerous for one or two councillors to fulfil I.

Previou to amalgamation there were 100 alder men and 12 mayors compared to 50 councillors and the M aye since unification. lt further stated that it would "be the function of the Committees to administer those service gen erally deemed to be essent ially local in nature such as community centres, local parkl playgrounds, libraries and recrea tional facilities." The concept of unification has, in general, been well accepted and seen as a necessity to resolv the problems prev iously mentioned.

The greatest dissatisfaction with unification has been centralization of services on a district basi and district budget ing with the resul ting loss of local control, accountabilit:, and administrative sta at the local community level . Henc e, producing further erosion of the Community Committee, and a increase in pe ople apathy. No one willinglygives upt oa small centrali zed power group, its autonom and self -determi nation over its own immediate environment. To continue this trend, we run the risk c having our democratic system re placed with authoritarianism of the le ft or of the right.

The high le vel of taxes experienced since unification is unjustified when compared to the level c services received. Much of the cost of unification has been towards the centralization of services on district basis. The rec lassification of civic emp loyees on a district basis, because of an increase geog raphical area, has also increased the cost of administration without a corre sponding increase c services and programs. To put it simply, the Winnip eg taxpayer is get ting le ss value for the tax dollar spent - th emplo yees providing the same services are get ting higher salaries.

The recent centralization of Park and Recreation is a case in point - over $300,000 has been budgeted tor rec lassification c emplo yees. lt goes without saying that the benefits accruing the municipal emplo yees such a greater oppor tunitie s tor promotions in this new bureaucratic ladder is more attractive, but mor costly to the tal<payers. The following table shows the dates that the centralization of services occurred.

This table, which sets out the sequence of unitications, should illustrate the magnitude of th achievement involved: · Department and Date Department Effectively Centr alized: Assess ment, Janua ry 1, 1972 Audit, Februar y 16, 1972 Board of Commissione rs, Jan uary 1, 1972 Budget Bureau, Ju ne 7, 1972 City Clerk's, Jan uary 1, 1972 Computer Services, June 21, 1972 Fi nance, Ja nuary 1, 1972 Fir e, Janua ry 7, 1974 Land Surveys and Real Estate, Ju ne 7, 1974 Law, Febr uary 2, 1972 Mayor's Office, Ja nuary 1, 1972 Pers onnel, March 1, 1972 Planning, Environmental, Janua ry 1, 1972 Police, October 21 , 1974 Purchasing, Jun e 7, 1972 Welfare, May 30, 1973 Works and Operations, February 21 , 1973 (I ncluding Transit, Water and Waste Disp osal, Streel and Transit and Transportation) In conclusion, as stated in the Taraska Report, the res idents' advisory groups and the Communi1 Committees were created to impr ove the access of the people to the local government system.

Th means of improving this access in The City of Winnip eg Act, was through the supervision < emplo yees in the del ivery of services at the local level, and through the devel opment of tech nique 15 8

Law Amendments Monday, May 30, 1977 r communication and information in order that the citizens might become better aware of policies, ·ograms and budgets, and that the local representative might become aware of the citizens' views 1 these matters. The ev idence submitted to the Committee of Review City of Winnip eg Act showed at the intentions of the Act had not been imple mented. I would like to summarize the Chamber's vie ws:

(1) To demonstrate that the centralization of services and preparation of budgets on a district �sis was detrimental to the to the local ide ntity and entit y of the Co mmunity Committees.

(2) To illustrate that the total lack of self-determ ination and autonomy that has resulted from mtral ization on a district basis.

(3) To provide evi dence that City Council and its administration from the ver y beg inning of nification, did not want the system of Community Committees and Re sident s' Advisory Groups.

(4) To study the Taraska Repor t and Reco mmendation in order to determ ine whether or not it is �presentative of only the elected representatives or of the pe ople at large. (5) to make recommendations which are in keep ing with democr atic princip les of adeq uate �presenta tion, accountability, re sponsibility and citizen particip ation.

We concluded that unification was advantageo us to Metro and its area municipalities for its rovisions of uniform tax base, a wholistic planning and development appr oach to urban growth el ivery and super vision of services on a Community Committee basis, and equal ization of services 1r oughout the city.

However, we were appal le d to discover that Central City Council made up of law-abiding ouncillors, chose to contravene the intent of many sections of the Act in rela tion to the Com munity ;ommittee, Re sidents' Advisory Groups, and budgets also mentioned in the Taraska Repor t (p age 41 ) which stated: " ... that the evidence submitted indicates that the intentions of the Act had not een re alized." The Provincial Government in its wisdom had written into the City of Winnip eg Act, sections to reserve the boundaries identity and entit y of the prev ious area municipalities and its functions to eep local government close to its pe ople.

Unfortunately, the elected representatives and the administration had different views, and if you �ad the mo tions and policies passed by Central Council since 19 72, you will see that even legal �comme ndations were ignored.

On July 18 th, 19 73, the City's leg al department advised Central :o uncil of the following: "I would em phasize that the bud get provisions with respect to the Community Committees are tatutory and are not a matter for internal policy dec ision and are spel le d out in the Act, and in some rec ision, and ther efore in my opinion must be followed if the Act is not to be brea ched." Therefore in ke eping with the Chamber of Commerce aims and objectives, I ask your suppor t for 1e recommenda tions put forward in this brief. Ther efore

be it resolved that the following recommenda tions be adopted by the Law Amendments :omm ittee:

(1) That the system of the 12 Community Committees be ret ained with its local council mee tings rith a minimum of 3 councillors to le gally hold such mee tings at the local Community Committee we I.

(2) That single-mem ber wards system should be ret ained as the basic el ectoral constituencies.

(3) That the three-year term of office of the council should be conti nued.

(4) That each Co mmunity Committee have one Councillor representative only on each standing ommittee of Council.

(5) That the Mayor continue to be el ected at large and the term of office to be 3 years, and that the 1ayor's prim ary function should be to head the municipal government, that is, the executive and the xecutive policy committee. He should be the chie f link between the Council and its exec utive, xcept in his absence.

(6) That the Council elect a chairman to chair the Council mee tings for a term of one year.

(7) That the Deputy Mayor be elected among the Councillors, by Council annually, and has all the owers of the Mayor in his absence.

(8) That no Councillor should serve on more than one committee except for those Councillors tho are also members of the executive committee.

(9) That the Community Committees be made responsible for the prepar ation of the community listrict plans and action area plans and should be involved in the amendment of the Greater Vinnipeg Dev elopment Plan.

That the Com munity Committees be provided with a local planning taffed office, an information staffed office for the Residents Advisory Groups and citizens at large .nd a staffed communication cler k's office, to provide the ne cessary services to the Community ;ouncillors, Residents Advisory Groups and citizens. (10 ) That any major capital projects be by refer endum. (1 1) That the Re siden ts Advisory Groups should be retained, (12 ) That the role of the Res idents Advisory Groups should be to assist and advise the Com munity 159

Law Amendments Monday, May 30, 1977 Committees in all matters and policie s concern ing Central Council, community district plans an action area plans; amendments to the GreaterWi nnipeg DevelopmentPian; zoning matters, budget: quality of services and any matter which falls under the jurisdiction of municipal government (c which comes under the jurisdiction of the three levels of gove rnment). (13 ) That the administration as well as an appl icant should have the right to appeal a decision c the zoning and variance Community Committee, as should any resident of the community directl affected by the decision, with the proviso that the Standing Committee of Envir onment consu prev iously with the Community Committee involved before final decision is taken. (14 ) That the resp onsibil ities and functions of the Community Committees be increased to reflec thei r historical and traditional identity and entity. (15 ) That the Central Council and the Community Committees should each have those power which are appr opriate to thei r roles and consistent with their responsi bilities. (16 ) That the present engi neering districts which were desig ne d for the convenie nce of th bureauc racy prepare both capital and current opera ting budgets on a community basis to b appr oved at the Community Committee local level. (17 ) That the re tention of previous municipal areas' boundarie s be reta ined for those areas th� have a,popu lation of 9, 000 to 10 ,000 per Councillor representa tion - sufficient to form a Communit Committee of at least three Councillors. (This proposal is taken from the white paper.) (18 ) That any by-laws, policies or budgets passed by Central Council that have not adhered to th intent and the procedu res and sections of The City of Winnip eg Act be declared null and void.

I thank you, gentlemen, for having given me of your time. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you Mr. Prince. Are there any ques tions? MR. PRINCE: I will leave this copy for your Committee. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Any que stions any members have? I hear none. Thank you M Pr ince. MR. PRINCE: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: Councillor Magnus Eliason. MR. ELIASON: Did somebody say, "Ma ke it short?" I am usually brie f, Mr. Chairman, an mem bers of the Committee.

I am only going to deal with two or three points, and the first one is thi que stion that has been discussed about whether the city should be autonomous in zoning; in othe words, in provincial projects whether the province should be able to override city zoning .. I voted contrary to the submission of the City of Winnip eg brie f on that because I felt that the Cit of Winnip eg brief was based on the wrong premise.

When consider ing any question, ge ntlemen, it i ne cessary to sort of conjecture our position, to know where we are at, to know where the startin point is, and evidently prior to - or so I understand - prior to the advent of Unic ity, provinci< gove rnme nts across Canada were not subject to city zonings for government projects. And so it wa actually an innovation, call it experiment if you like, by this government, the Government c Man itoba, to put into the Unic ity Act, or to re lieve the municipal government of Winnip eg, ofthat. S this is our starting poi nt.

Now the que stion was raised here last Saturday whether other provincial governments ha followed and no one seemed to have the answer, but the supp osition is that by no means has Wh! this government brought into being here in Winnip eg, by no means has it become the practice orth thing to do with provincial governments across Canada. So I don't know what you would call i gentlemen, but the impression was le ft - for instance some of the debates in the Winnip eg Counc last Wednesday implied that if this power was taken away from the City of Winnip eg, that that woul be a first in Canada.

In other words a false impression was created. So I come back to what I sai awhile ago, ' that obviously this was an experiment by this government. I don't know, ther e can b many schools of thought as to how the experiment has worked, but obviously this government mw have some reservat ions since this leg islation sugge sts that the tables should be turned or that th province should not be subje ct to city zoning, in other words that it should be the same situation as i currently with the Federal Government.

I think it is reg rettab le, gentlemen, if the province was obliged, for one reason or another, t remove this local control of the city or by the city. I would ther efore sugge st that zoning for Provinci< Government projects should, at the outset, be subject to city control. But if it ever came about that th city was obviously atte mpting to block government policy - because we can talk about the el ecte rep resentatives controlling, namely City Councillors. ML As or memb ers of a provincial governmer are also el ected representatives.

If such an impasse should arise, let us suppose that the province, fc instance, in attemp ting to break the inflation in the cost of land was attempting to bring lots on th market at cost, as we might say, and let us suppose that the city government of the day, or a given cit government, was attempting to block this, in other words defying government policy, then I woul suggest that if such an impasse should arise, that then it be not left to the Min ister, that it should b left to the Lieuten ant-Gove rnor-in-Council.

In other words the government would have to assess th situation and accept political re sponsibil ity for the decision of not being guided by city zoning. 16 0

Law Amendments Monday, May 30, 1977 I think this would be, gentlemen, a much fairer way of doing it. In other words basically the ssumption would be that the city is autonomous in zoning, but it the city defied a decision or a leclar ed program or policy of the Provincial Government, then the Provincial Government could :tke this in hand, and of course having to accept political responsi bility tor it, under those ircumstances would they then be able to upset a decision by the city, but only in the case of such an np asse. I think that will suffice, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, tor zoning.

Now we come to -t hese are, by he way, pretty disorganized notes. Now we come to the question of the lack in this propo sed bill of .ny se mblance of a suggestion of what was suggested in the Taraska Report, namely, that ther e hould be some form of political entities in council. I think the term in the Taraska Repor t that was 1sed was the govern ing group or the governing majority and an opp osition. I must say, gentlemen, that I reg ret the absence of any rec ommendation in this respect in the epor t.

I have watched municipal governments in more than one city, and incidentally Winnip eg is 10t the only city where I have contested municipal elections, and it has been my observation over the •ears that in cities across Canada- my experience is mainly across the West, but I have obser ved it 1cross Canada - that candidates run in elections without any declared policy and sort of under the 1uise of, belie ve it or not, being independent, and yet they are member s of some group. Why they lon't call thems elves a political party, I just don't know.

And the difficulty tor Councillors in opera ting n this vacuum is beco ming more and more acute. For instance the group in Winnip eg that operates in this fashion, In dependen ts at election time 1nd not-so-inde pendent after the elect ion, they are obviously experi encing the impossibility of ,pera ting as In de pend ents because after all they must in some fashion govern the city.

For instance - and I bel ieve this to be a fact-t he group which now calls itself the IC EC, which tormer lywas CEC 1nd I forget what it was calle d pr ior to that, but that ele ment in Council - and I am not refe rring to hem critically, they are a group which has enjoyed the el ect oral favour to a large extent of the :itizens of Winnip eg. If my obser vation is correct, they find the mselve s in a position today where they tre having to make more decisions in caucus than did thei r counterpar ts of, say, te n, fifteen, twenty •ears ago.

And to me the el ecto rate must be able to te ll by the brand and the declared policy of the :an didate at elec tion time what he or she will do if they are ele cted. Otherwise the el ectors are having o sort of buy a pig in a poke, and certai nly it is difficult for the el ecto rate today to say at election time, We will vote for this policy," because some of those who form groupings after the election pose as ndep endents during the campaign.

Now I am told by more experienc ed people than I am that it is difficult to impose any attitudes by egisla tion, and such a remarkable sel ling job has been done on this bogeyness of independence in nunicipal government over the years that the public actually is allowed to bel ie ve it, actually belie ve t, and ther efore for a government or for a Legisla ture to pass a bill legis lating into bei ng political Jroupings is perhaps difficult. But if I may, Mr .

Chairman and gentlemen, I think the time is coming vhen those who are drafting legislation for large citie s such as Winnipeg will have to pay some heed o this.

Not being a lawyer, I don't know how or to what extent you could have got the be ginnings of his into this bill, but I am here stating that I am disappoi nted that there is no mention or there is 1othing of the sort in this bill, because I am convinced that the el ecto rate must be able, at elec tion ime, to distinguish between candidates and between groups of candidates, and incidentally, >etween candidates for Mayor, candidates tor any office, thei r declared policies and what they stand or if and when they are ele cted. No w 1 come to the revision or the reduction in the size of Council.

Somehow I am not impressed vhen I come to that one. lt almost sounds as though we are here indulging in a sort of a trial and error lxercise. Prior to 19 71 this area was - athough there were more part-time pe ople than there are now - but nevertheless this area -a nd it was smaller then -w as governed by over 10 0 peo ple. Then this JOvernmen t of six years ago decided to set up a Council of 50. Now - forgive me if I say this - but almost as though one was pulling a number out of a hatt hey ;ay 28 in 19 77. Somehow I am not impressed.

Somebody said that I can never make a presenta tion without tel ling one story, and I am going to ell the story now. -(I nterjec tion)- it's a clean one. You'd be su rprised. Thirty-five years ago I knew a quack doctor in Vancouver and I knew a patient that was visiting or JOing to this quack doctor. The doctor had been tel ling his patient to take two pills a day; I don't know vhat the pills were. One day when the patient visited the doctor, the doctor said, "Well, how do you ee l?" "Wel l," he said, "I don't see any differe nt." "Well, maybe you should take three pills. So, you :ome back in a week.

Take three pills a day." Next week the patient came back and the doctor asked 1im the same questi on. He said, "I don't feel any different." We ll, the doctor scratched his head and he ;aid - by the way, this is a true story - "Wel l, maybe we should reduce those pills to one a day." And ust in case you gentlemen are interest ed, I checked on this not so long ago; the patient is still living. \nd this was thirty-five years ago. But this tink eri ng around with numbers. -(I nter ject ion)- Wel l, the moral of it is that it's useless to 16 1

Law Amendments Monday, May 30, 1977 tink er around with numbers. If we decide on a Council of 50 and decide it on considerable merit, a� was done in 1971 have hear d all those submissions: the resident advisory system, the Communit) Committee concept, the idea of a councillor represent ing a small neighbour hood, and all that. In other words, I honestly can't see if it was ne cessary to have 50 councillors six years ago why i should now be conducive to have only 28. I just honestly can't see it. And I'm not going to bring in al the argumen ts that have been presented by various pe ople here.

But I want to point out one thing and I think I'm correct in this assumption, that the area which I am most familiar with - namely thE proposed City Centre - the part of that proposed area lying between the Assinib oine River and thE CPR tracks and the Red River and the St. Ja mes border would be rep resented by four. If I am wrong ir this, I wish somebody wou ld correct me, but that's my impression. I want to poi nt out that under the old City of Winnipeg the area not from the River to the CPF tracks, but the area from Portage Ave nue to the CPR tracks was represented by six.

And it's � consider ably smaller area. Now we are proposi ng that this larger area be represented by only four Well, I can't be sold on the idea. I would think that if we are bent on re ducing the size of Council, would think that it should not be reduced to, say, below 35. The city is to be given autonomy in thE choosing of committees and in case the city should decide - either now or at some stage of the gamE -t o set up, say, five standing committees, ther e would then be seven to a committee, or actually les! because one or two could be siphoned off to the Executive Policy Committee.

But I would think that if it is imperative to reduce the size of Council, I would think it should not bE reduced to below 35. Having discussed this size of Council, I can't help but say that it's my impressior that the press and, oh, some politicians have done sort of a disservice in discred iting the idea of a5 ( mem ber Council.

And whenever there is a semb lance - and this happens in any legisla tive body whe never there is a sem blance of a bit of bad behaviour at Council Mee tings everybody just says "Wel l, if it was a smaller body they wouldn't fight, everyt hing would be wel l." I have obser ved man1 Legisla tures in session and obser ved Parliament in ses sion and I have come to the conclusion tha not all the bad behaviour app ears on the floor of City Council.

With regard to those services now provided by the area municipalitie s and which will (at least unt such time as the unified Council deems it advisable to assume additional respo nsibil ities) continue tr be a local re sponsi bility, the Community Committee would have authority to: (1) "consider anr propose programs with respect to these services; (2) submit to the Central Council the proposer budgets for these services, and (3) supervise the deliv ery of these servi ce s." Of utmost importance is the following passage quoted from page 19 which must be noted: "Amou nts would be allocated from the over all budget prepared for the re gional government fa the specified programs in each Committee area.

These amounts would be considered in light c Committee program plans and budget proposals. The sum allocated would be a lump sum coverin! all such programs and in this way, permit local flexibil ity in allocation of ex penditur es." The Community Committees would have no legal authority over the hiring and firing of person nE at the community level, but would have the power to direct and assign local staff. The Committees would not req uire any additional administrative staff, as staff would be provider by the Central Council. The committees could oper ate out of exis ting facilities.

They would hav available to them office space and mee ting rooms in the present municipal offices. They would als' have available to them all the present municipal staffs req uired to carry out their respo nsibilitie� That is not the case now, gentlemen, I can assure you. Given these functions, it may bear repea ting at this point that the geogr aphic areas in which th Community Committees would oper ate would be define d in terms of exis ting administrative anr service areas - that is, essent ially the areas described by the exis ting municipal boundaries.

The siz of the Committees would ther efore be determined by the number of new ele ctoral wards contained i each of the existi ng municipalities. The following sections of the City of Winnip eg Act em bodie d the Man itoba Government's ne1 concept of Urban Government discussed above. Access of the peo ple to the local govern mer system was provided through the supervision of emp loyees in the del ivery of services at th Community Committee level who had originally separate municipalities had the structure t' supervise and del iver such services.

Section 22, subsection (1) of the Act which clearly protects this major aspect of local govern mer reads as follows: (and it's taken out of Exhibit "A" and the Chamber has attached all the Exhibits t this brief) Services supervised by Community Committees. 22(1) Subject to the provisions of this Act represent ing the transfer of services and except as otherwise provided in this Act, each Community Committee shall supervise em ployees in the del ivery of all the services which, until the coming into force of this Act, were administered by the area municipalities, other than the services del ivered pursuant to law prior to the coming into force of this Act by 162

Law Amendments Monday, May 30, 1977 (

i) The Metropolitan Corporation of Greater Winnipeg, and (ii) The former City of Winnip eg respect ing its Hydro Elect ric Syste m. In addition each Community Committee's annual Capital and Cu rrent Estimates were to be repared on a Community Committee basis, thereby making it possible for councillors and citizens ) identify disparitie s of services between Community Committees.

Section 22, subsection (3) clearly makes the Community Committee responsible for the reparat ion of both the annual capital and current estima tes budgets. lt reads as follows (taken out of :xh ibit "A"): Prepara tion of annual capital and current es timates. 22(3) Subject to the other provisions of this Act, each community committee shall prepare and submit the annual capital and current estima tes of the costs of operati ng the community committee and the exp enditur es for the services referred to in subsec tion (1) to the executive policy committee. In addition,

Section 27, subsection (1) desig nates the services that the Co mmunity Committees re respo nsible for. lt should be noted that the words "shall disclose" are used instead of "may lisclose" . lt reads (taken out of Exhibit "A") : Community budgets. 27(1 ) The community budgets shall be included in the city's annual current and capital budgets, and shall disclose for each community the identifiable costs of oper ating the community committee and the exp end itures budgeted for each of the following budget groups of services, the delivery of which is supervised during that year by the community committees: (

a) Culture and recrea tion. (

b) Public works and opera tions. (

c) Protec tion of persons and proper ty. (

d) Health and social devel opment. Review by community committees. 27(1 .1 ) Each community committee shall review the annual capital and current budgets prepared pursuant to Clause (

d) of subsection (1) of sect ion 50 in respect of services and del ivery which is supervised during that year by the com munity committees and, subje ct to clause (

c) of sec tion 36, shall make rec ommendations thereon to the executive policy committee. The City of Winnip eg Act went to great lengths to spec ifically spell out the functions and esp onsib ilities of Community Committees in order that res idents be completely informed :oncern ing exis ting potential city policie s to have the views of the citizens of former municipalitie s aken into consider ation after unification. This was done to overcome the irresponsiveness of large bureaucratic government which would nevita bly occur under Uni city. (Taken out of Exhibit "A"): Respo nsibilitie s of community committees. 23 Each community committee shall, (

a) develop and implement tech niq ues to maintain the closest possible communica tion between the city and the residents of the community, so that residen ts' views on policies, programs, budgets and deliv ery of services may be communicated to the council, the committees of the council, and the boards and commissions continued or created under this Act; and (

b) develop and implement tech niques to provide the residents of the com munity with information concer ning exis ting and potential city policie s, programs and budgets so as to facilitate res idents in discussing and developing vie ws concern ing these matters. Mee tings of community committees. 24

(1) Each community committee shall, (

a) at least once a month at a reg ular time and place, meet to consider the business of the community; (

b) conduct a mee ting or mee tings to facilitate participation by residents of the community in the preparation of submissions concern ing the annual current and a capital budgets (i ncluding the community committee budget) and make submissions res pecting such budgets to the executive policy committee; (

c) conduct a meeting or mee tings at least quarterly to consider progress reports on the programs and projects of the city; and (

d) at least once each year, hold a community conference which all residents of the 16 3

Law Amendments Monday, May 30, 1977 community shall be invited to atte nd and partici pate in discussions of city programs, and at one of which shall be presented for discussion, the annual statement of rev en ues and expen ditures of the community committee. One major innovation of the City of Winnip eg Act was the creation of Re sident Advisory Group: which opened the door for grassroot participation for organizations of local citizens to assist thei councillors in formulating policie s, plans and programs which would affect their community as wel as the city at large.

The results were in effect to improve upon the present democratic systen wher eby only the elected representatives and the administration have access to information anc dec ision-making without the benefit of citizens' input. Sections 21 (1 ) and 21 (4) read as follows (taken out of Exhibit "A"): Residents' Advisory Group. 21

(1) The Resi dents' Advisory group may be el ected at any community conference referred to in subsec tion (1) of

Section 24 by the residents ot the com munity who are present, from their numb er. Role of Resident s' Advisory Group. 21

(4) The role of a re siden ts' advisory group is to advise . and assist the mem bers of the community committee for the community at whose conference they were elected, as to the performance of their As it was cle arly shown, the City of Winnip eg Act is based on a community system with Residents' Advisory Groups to create a system "where the opinio ns andhopes and fears of the average citizen can get a fair hear ing" using the words of Councillor Johannson.

Un fortunately, since 19 72, ther e has been numerous atte mpts to do away with Community Committees' supervisory role of services and Re sident Advisory Groups. The minutes of the Council mee ting on No vember 15 , 19 72, records the following motion by Councillor Smith and seconded by Councillor Sasaki. 17 70 - That No tice be given as of the passing of this motion under

Section 22(7) that all functions of Community Committees be assumed by Council and any and all amend ments be proposed to the City of Winnipeg Act to-dele te all reference to Community Committees and Re sidents' Advisory Groups. lt was referred to the Exec utive Policy Committee. This motion was made contrary to the intent of an ea rlier motion passed on July 19 , 19 72 which follows: Establishment of Positions of Communications Cler ks for each Community Committee. File GM. 11 06 - 2. Your Committee submits with a rec ommendation for appr oval and adoption the following reso lution: "WHERE AS under

Section 22 of the City of Winnip eg Act each Community Committee is charged with the super vision of emp loyees and the del ivery of all services which were formerl y administered by the area municipalities; AND WHERE AS under

Section 27 of the Act community budgets must be prepared annually concerning these services under the headings of cultural and recrea tional, public works, protec tion of persons and property, health and social development; AND WHER EAS under Sec tion 21 of the City of Winnipeg Act a Reside nts' Advisory Group may be el ected to advise and assist the member s of the Community Committee in the performance of thei r functions under the Act. AND WHERE AS under

Section 24 of the City of Winnip eg Act the Community Committees are re sponsible for conducting mee tings to facilitate participation by residents in the community and in the preparation of submissions concern ing the annual current and capital budget to the Executive Policy Committee and to conduct meeti ngs, at least quarterly to consider progress repo rts and programs and projects of the City; AND WHERE AS it is desirab le to estab lish a person whose resp onsibility would be to act as a co-ordinator of the various responsi bilitie s of the Community Committee with the re sident advisers, the Community Committee, the Executive Policy Committee and the citizens of the community, so as to provide the most effective means of communication between the citizen and the ele cted representatives both in the community and in the central council pursuant to the letter and spi rit of the Act.

NOW THER EFORE

be it resolved that a position be created, for each of the thirteen community committees, to be known as Commmunications Clerks, who shall help co ordinate al l the dutie s imposed upon the Community Committees under the Act, as well 16 4

Law Amendments Monday, May 30, 1977 as to faci litate communications between the citizens of the community, the resident advisers of the community Community ' Committee councillors and Community Committee department heads and the Executive Policy Committee so as to ensur e the access of the citizen to his ele cted representative as wel l as an effective super vision for the del ivery of services by Community Committees." Moved by Councillor Fuga, Adoption of the Clause. The Motio n was carried.

Again, on the 24th of Jan uary, 19 73, the Executive Policy Committee presented the following eport in another attempt to ab olish the ide ntity and functions of all Community Committees: Repor t of the Executive Policy Committee, dated Januar y 18 , 19 73. Proposed Abolition of the In ner City Joint Community Committee and all Community �ommittees and Re sident Advisory Groups.

File GM-1 . 16 6-15 Council at its meeti ng held on Novem ber 15 th, 19 72, referred the following two motions to the Executive Policy Committee, namely, "That the Council of the City of Winnip eg take all necessary steps to abolish the In ner City Joint Community Committees and "That notice be given as of the passing of this motion under

Section 22(7) that all functions of the Community Committee be assumed by Council and any and all amend ments be proposed to the City of Winnip eg Act to dele te all reference to Community Committee and Resident Advisory Groups." Your Committee referred these matters to all Community Committees for their comments by Januar y 15 , 19 73. For the information of Council, copy of results of the que stionnaire that was sent out is attached.

Your Committee recommends that the City Sol icitor be instructed to make appl ication at the next session of the Leg islature for an amend ment to the City of Winnip eg Act to give the City perm issive legis lation to abolish the Inn er City Joint Community Committee. Your Committee also rec ommends that the Community Committee and Resident Advisory Groups be ret ained. Moved by Councillor Fuga, Adoption of the Clause, Motion Carried. Olga Fuga was the Chairman.

The Committee of Works and Opera tions on Februar y 21 , 19 73, submitted the Ur wick Currie and Jnder wood & Mclellan report which in effect was rec ommending the six engi neering districts that Ne have presently in exis tence -c entralization of services. See Exhibit "B". As can be seen, the unit known as Community Committees was enl arged to contain two previous nunicipal areas and was calle d a district.

The co-ordination between the Community Committees as )pera ting units could have been effected at a much lower cost than through the crea tion of larger ji stricts which have become, due to size, less re sponsible to the service req uirements of the citizens. fhe new district units are no longer under the super vision of the Community Committees' ele cted ·epresentatives, contrary to the Act, and are directly re sponsible to the administration which is non- 91ected. Even more serious, the new system of budgeti ng is set up on a district basis, which is also contrary :o

section 27( 1) and (2), and 28(1) and (2) as quoted prev iously. it now has become impossible for my councillor to identify the expend itures of his or her own community, hence difficult to be '!ccountable to the public. These new engi nee ring districts are only legally accountable to the '!dministration as there is no provision in the City Act for the elec tion of political rep resentatives on such a basis. Fur ther, on Ju ly 18 , 19 73, the est ablishment of a Central Council Budget and Six District Budgets lor Works and Opera tions was passed.

The Central Council by-passed the rec ommendations of the iegal depar tment and although the Capital Budget identifies the projects of each individual 8ommunity Committee, the Current Opera ting Budget does not.

The legal department stated the lollowing and this is taken out of Exhibit "C": I have perused the re lative sec tions of the City of Winnip eg Act re ferring to Community Committees and to the procedu res for the budgets of the Community Committees, including the In ner City Joint Community Committee, and in my opinio n, the procedure as set forth in the communication from the Board of Commissioners in which they re commend six district budgets for works and operations would be contrary to provisions of the City of Winnip eg Act and in particular,

Section 27(1 ) and (2) and

Section 28(1) and (2). it would be possible of course, to have two different procedu res on accounts, one pursuant to the sections of the Act and another for the six districts, but this does not appear to me to be a practical appr oach. I would empha size that the budget provisions with respect to the Community Committees are statutory and are not 16 5

Law Amendme nts Mond ay, May 30, 1977 a matter for internal policy decision and are spelle d out in the Act in some prec ision and ther efore, in my opinion, must be followed if the Act is not to be breached. it is ther efore impossible to relate the lower level of services to the budget as one can not compan one year with another. lt IS also impossible to te ll how much money is spent in each community Since 19 73, all the services under Sect ion 27 (1) - that is, Culture and Recrea tion; Public Work: and Op eratio ns; Protec tion of persons and prope rty (p olice and tire department s); and Health an< Social Dev elopment have now been centralized.

The results of centr alization on the Community Committees has been the loss of most of its stal and functions, creati ng frLrstration for the citizens and councillors. Although the Community Committees are legal committees of Council, they have no powers t( respond to citizens' needs and requests. The role of both the Co mmunity Committees and Re siden Advisers through the centralization of services has been made pointle ss, as all dec ision-making even concern ing locai matters, re lating to services and policie s has been transferred to distric administration or to Central Council.

Thus, one of the main objectives of the Act, to bnng loca government closer to the pe ople, was not fulfilled. The Taraska Report and Re commendations concluded from its findings that:

(1) Municipal govern me nt may be close,- to the people, it may be more acceptable, it may even b1 more responsive than both provincial and federal governmen ts. but it is not as accountable. Thr matter of who is to be held accountable for the decision policies and actions of the municipa government is gener ally obscure.

(2) Municip al government tends to be far less resp onsible than other levels of government i1 matters of policy, since individual councillors cannot be held accountable for civic policies, onl· council as a whole .

(3) Policy-making has rarely been viewed as a major function of municipal governments.

(4) The complexity of the new government organization has not made them more accountable respons ive or acces sible at the grassroots level. The above findings are true, only because the intent of the City of Winnip eg Act was no imp lemented. Thus, it can be said that the system of Community Committees was not even given ' fair trial.

Although unification has overcome the physical disadvantages existing under Metro. sucl as-trunk sewer and wate r services that cou!d not be extended across municipal botJ.ndaries; majo streets that could not be developed system atically; fire and police services that could not be co ordinated; and industrial develop ment sites spr inging up at random caused by the inter-m unicip< competition for the re venue from industrial assess ment, it has not resolved the frustrations cause' by the lack of res ponsiveness on the part of large, bureaucratic governm ent struc tures.

I think that the press has done a hatchet job on this and I never liked erroneous impres sions. never like when peo ple are misled. Over the last six years there have been pe ople in the me dia an elsewhere who have sort of lulled the citizenr y of Winnip eg into belie ving that if you could onl reduce the size of Council all your ills would be cured, all your ills would be cured. To me pe ople wh make such state ments are false prophets. They are creating thoughts and hopes in the minds c people that are false. Having said this I think there is just one other thing that I want to refer to.

See, I am a bit shortE than some of my predecessors this even ing. Reg ardle ss of the size of Council, regardless of yOL final decision as to the size of Council, the so-calle d "C ity Centre Community Committee" should ne be extended across the Assiniboine River. We had that spectacle before when the St. John' Community Committee crossed the Red River, and it was deemed to be impractical. I would suggest, Mr . Chairman and gentlemen, that if a Community Committee area crosses major barrier such as the Assiniboine River that it would not go for better citizen participation, c resident advisory activity.

I think I am one of two city councillors who rides the transit, by the way. am very proud of that. But, to those, for instance, in Fort Rouge who use the public transit - we ll lE us say that these meeting would be somewhere downtown around Portage Avenue or some thing lik that. But for people who come from Fort Rouge to have to cross the river and attend mee ting downtown, hardly smacks of being a neig hbourhood meeti ng. I would suggest gentlemen th1 whatever you do, this would be my ple a, don't extend that City Cent re Community Committee are across the Assiniboine Ri ver. Now, I want to say in conclusion ...

And, by the way, my conclusion is short, Mr . Chairman an gentleman. I want to say in conclusion that I appre ciate having the oppor tunity of appe aring befor you. This is democr acy in action. I trust that you will pay heed, or that you will at least .... What is it Somebody told me a long time ago that when a politician - I gue ss this app lies to me, too - says h will give it serious consideration, it means that his face is sad while he is tossing that propos ition int the waste paper basket.

I trust that you will give what I have said your serious consideration and I thank you for th privilege of appe aring here. 166

Law Amendments Monday, May 30, 1977 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you Councillor Eliason. There may be some que stions. Do any mem bers ave any ques tions? Are there any que stions? Heari ng none, thank you Councillor Eliason. MR. ELIASON: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: Councillor Henr y Kozlowski. MR. HENRY KOZLOWSKI: Mr.

Chairman, mem bers of the committee, I'm not going to bore you ith all sorts of details because you have heard the submission of my fellow councillor, A If Skowr on. le've gone over this very thoroughly but the reason I am appe aring her e before you tonight is ecause you are re ally doing some thing that bother s me some thing awful.

Fir st of all, I am totally amazed that in spite of all the presenta tions that our caucus has made to ::>u in a group and individually, and in my capacity as a Caucus Chairman I have had talks with some f you, you didn't pay the slightest attention to what we had to say. it's very unfortunate because we want to bel ie ve you but you don't bel ie ve us. As far as you are ::>ncerned, we just don't exist. And yet let me tell you that we are much, much closer to the pe ople 1an some of you.

I have only got two points that I am terri bly objecting to and one of them is that grouping a lot of ower in the hands of one person -a nd I'm talking particularly about the planning and of course bout the financing. I'm an immigrant; I've come from Europe and I' ve seen this erosion of emocracy. I' ve lived through it and I sure as heck don't want to see it happen here. One man's pini on, in my opin ion, is not good enough. There has to be a board. There has to be a consensus. here has to be a majority verdict. And this is what you are trying to take away from us.

The next item is the elimi nation of the Community Committees. I would like to say that that is nother bad, bad step that you are contemp lating right there. This concept proved itself; it works. laybe in some instances it works better than others, but I'm speak ing about West Kildonan articularly. We have a very harmonious relationsh ip with our re sident advisers and with my two �I low councillors because there are three of us on there, A be Yanofsky, M ichael O'Shaughnessy and 1yself. All three of us have different ide ologies. Yet this is good for the peo ple.

The decisions are nanimous and everybody is heard and everybody is listened to. As for the input of the RAG group, e not only expect it; we demand it from them . And they, in fact, are part of the government. The excuse I have hear d is that you are going to elimi nate parochialism. Now, how naive can you et? If I choose to run for re-election in West Kildonan and somebody asks me, "Wel l, what is your latform? What have you achieved so far?" Then I am going to go and tell them, "Well, I fought tooth '1d nail with CNR to stop them from building that piggy-back term inal in Tuxedo.

I prevented the igh-rise apartment block from going up in Fort Rouge, or I voted for Riverside Park in Fort Garry." o you now what they would then te ll me? "B uster, you go and fly a kite, you know. You can get lected some place else. You haven't done a thing for us here." Our electoral system is geared to arochialism whet her you like it or not and you've got to accommodate the pe ople who ele ct you or se out you go. Those are the facts of life. No w what is wrong with a part-time councillor? I don't see anything wrong with it.

Min d you, in 1is case I would have to add that I am perhaps a little bit more pragmatic than my colleagues in the �ucus. 1 could live with 36, 38, possibly 39 co uncillors. Part-time , mind you, because I bel ieve that a art-time councillor has his feet firmly on the ground. He knows what it's all about. I can speak about 1yself. I'm on the Fi nance Committee and there, as a member of the Fi nance Committee, we ispense hundreds of thousands, indeed millions of dollars of the city's money and then comes the 1agic hour.

The meeti ng is over and like Cinder el la I turn into a pumpkin again, although in my case s a plumber, and be lie ve me there is nothing more that punctures your ego than to clean dirty 1i lets, you know. My props from ten years ago still fit me today. Coming back again, I for instance, and I know many of my fellow councillors receive lots of phone �lis and not all of them deal with municipal matters. In deed, half of them, in my case, deal strictly ith provincial matters. We advise them, guide them, te ll them who to call. In fact, what we are doing we are isolating you gentlemen from rea lity.

Because you are not in touch with the grass roots as ,uch as you should or could be. I'm not saying all of you; I say some of you. Let's say in fact what we ·e doing, we are protec ting you so that you may go on belie ving that you can do no wrong, �ntlem en, and that's a fact. You can still wear your little halos; you think you are God's gift to anitoba. That is not a fact. Because in many instances, Mr. Chairman, we apologize on your behalf 1d we cover up for you. Why? Because we want to belie ve you. That's why. Don't let us down ple ase.

No w, let's get back to this magic numbers game - 28 - and God only knows where you got that Jmber from because it sure as hel l beats me. I don't know. No t the foggiest idea. But what you must � doing, obviously, you must be firmly convinced that 600,000 pe ople can be most effectively and ost efficiently governed by 28 pe ople . Now, let's get that straight, 28 pe ople for 600,000 people. ight? Great. In that case, Mr . Chairman, why does it take 57 of you to govern a population of one ill ion.

I am sure you have no answer for that, and I am sure you wouldn't appr eciate a senior level of )Vernment stepp ing in and saying ten or eleven of you are red undant, and yet you are doing it to us, 1d we are plead ing with you, "Pl ease don't do that, don't; don't kill it." 16 7

Law Amendments Monday, May 30, 1977 No w there is also another number, and that is 14 ,000 ele ctors, which in rough figures you migh say would come to about'22,000, 24,000, 25,000 population. That is people; actual, living people humans. I wonder how many of you as MLAs represent in fact 25,000 peo ple. Now somebody sai< here the other day that MLAs have double the amount of pe ople in their constituencies as some Cit� Councillors do. Wel l, let's keep the record straight.

This definitely is appl icable in some cases, bu without stopping to think I can name at le ast two City Councillors who are rep rese nting more pe oph than some of you MLAs at this very date, and those are facts. Well, I wish to conclude and I do apologize for my harshness, Mr. Chairman, but what you an trying to do, you are trying to kill one of the princip les that guided me through life, and that i1 government for the pe ople and by the pe ople. You want to make it government for the pe ople alon e and I, for one, cannot accept that.

I would like to say when an election comes, which it will eventu ally then I suppose all of us are going to be hauled out of the clothes closet where we spent the last fou years, we are going to get dusted off, we are going to be re lie ved of all our ... and then we are goin! to be set forth to please go and save our jobs for us. I mean that's the way it works, and chances are w1 will all do it again, only this time around my heart is not going to be in it, and I fear that if you continUI with your tunnel vision and with your lem ming-like at titude for some of you, Mr.

Chairman, for som1 of you, that when it comes to the outcome of the ele ction, I wouldn't bet a plugge d nickel. Thank yo1 Mr . Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Councillor Kozlowski. Are there any ques tions? Hearing none thank you. Councillor Bill Norrie. MR. BILL NORRIE: Mr . Chairman, that is a very difficult actto follow, particularly when I am in th1 anomalous position, Mr . Chairman, of pretty we ll suppor ting what you are propo sing, and Councillo Kozlowsk i, who is of an opposite political persuas ion, is oppo sing it, and so you will have to try an1 sort that out for yourselves.

May I at the outset first of all say that I am appe aring as an individual and speak ing only for mysell I am not spea king on behalf of any group in Council or for the Council although I must apologize t1 you as a Councillor and as a member of the City Co uncil for the city's official brief having beet presented to you by the Solicitor on Saturday. I felt that that was an insult to your Committee and at insultt o our own Council, and I apologize to you, for what it's worth, on a personal basis. May I say, Mr .

Chairman, as well that I think you are heari ng, through these heari ngs, a re� diversity of opinio n which arises basically from the en vironment out of which the Councillors comE and you will have detected I am sure, in the opinions and the presentations of many ofthe Councillor who are represent ing former suburban areas, a great concern for the loss of ide ntity which thei communities had pr ior to Uni city.

No w I represent an area of the city which is not suburban in nature. lt is neither downtown i nature. lt is perhaps a transitional area, resi dential totally in character, but those particular kinds c areas in the city did not have the legis lative base for the community feel ing that many of the suburba communities had. I think it is true to say that the peo ple in my area, and I represent part of the Fot Rouge Community Committee, pe ople in my area related politically at the municipal level to Cit Hall.

They didn't relate to a Community Committee or a local council in the same way that somebod living in Fort Garry or St. Vital or West Kildonan did, and perhaps we missed some thing in that. I ar not drawing judgments here, I amjuststating realities. And so as a re sult of that, I think we have foun Community Committees have worked and have oper ated and have been oper ated in different area in different manners, and I think that is a good thing, Mr .

Chairman, because I think one of the gre� disabilities that most of us on Council labour under is a feeling that the unification of the city mear uniformity throughout the city. My personal view is that that was neither the inte ntion, nor should be the result, because what has happened in many of the services that we have withdrawn in certai areas, we have withdrawn them in order to make them uniform throughout the city, and many of th procedures that we have est ablished have been est ablished simply to make every body eq ual, so t speak, to be treated on the same basis.

I don't think the citizens of Winnip eg re ally wanted that, nor d they resent servic es or other procedu res bei ng different in different areas. I think different areas c the city have different needs, and so ther efore I think that the prem ise that most of us ope rate from� the city level is enti rely wrong. In addressing myself, Mr.

Chairman, spe cifically to some of the amendm ents that you ar proposing, might I say that I think that your proposal for reduction of the Council is valid an appr opriate, and I think that there must be a rationale for it, and I think that the obvious rationale i that on the basis of the 28 suggested Councillors, they would appr oximately represent the sam number of pe ople on a gene ral basis that the MLAs from the City of Winnip eg represent.

In othE words if you look at the proposed map, it is not easy to see what I think is the rationale and that is th ward atea, if you do go to the wards, would be basically and probably pretty close to the provincil constituency area, and that cert ainly is a rationale. You may agree or disagree with it, but I think thl there is a rationale beh ind the reduction. 168

Law Amendments Monday, May 30, 1977 I have been one of those, Mr. Chai rman, who has supported rather strenu ously and from early on 1 the unification of the city a reduced Council, because I think it has not worked in the sense of the ize of Council, and I can't think that the pe ople of Manitoba who are represented by you gentlemen .re any less we ll rep resented because you represent more people than we do, and that the people of Vinnipeg are any better represented because there are more of us. I don't real ly think it is the number that counts, Mr .

Chairman, I think it is the concern and the 1uality and the activity of the Councillor, and you can't legisla te that. I think if the operation of �ouncil can be facilitated by a reduction and still maintain a proper base of representati on and a ationale for it, then I see no reason to continue with what I belie ve to be a very cumbersome and very :1rge Council. You know, Mr. Chairman, there are not really 50 poi nts of view of every issue, but if you attend nany of the Council mee tings, you would beg in to think there are.

And that in itself is a logistical •r oblem which, of course, could be overcome if we were prepar ed to sit for long sessions, as ncidental ly I am amazed and ple asantly surpr ised that you pe ople are. We have limitations on our :om mittee presenta tions, Mr . Chairman, and I am ver y surprised that you don't and I think it is a :redit to your fortitude. MR. MILLER: We're slow learners. MR. NORRIE: Slow learners. Wel l, that may be. We may pass it around a little bit. Mr. Chairman, I think that the numbers game of course is one that we can all play.

The only other .uggestion that I would make, if you were to consider changing the size of the Council, and I think hat if you are going to change it, you must have some rationale for changing it. I had originally uggested to the Taraska Commission a Council of eigh teen, and my rationale for that was six listricts with three Councillors from each district. I must admit that I did it on the basis of trying to 1ccentuate on this side of the picture the need for red uction, as opposed to those on this side whoare 1rguing for the continuation of the status quo.

But if you want a rationale for a middle ground, then I think you could look at the Council which night be a size of 36. The rationale for that would be twelve Community Committees of three �ouncillors ea ch. I am not arguing spec ifically for the retention of the twelve Community �ommittees, but what I think you might do is you might consider the Community Committee as the tlectoral unit, and ele ct three from each present Community Committee boundary, but still maintain ·our proposal whereby the district or the larger community would be the administrative and political 1nit.

I would go so far, and I know this may be an anathema to many of you, but I have a strong feeling hat peo ple in Winnip eg would be better represented if ther e was an electi on at large from those �ommunity Committee areas, in other words if there were three Councillors el ected at large if you vent to the 36 size. I say this for this reaso n, Mr. Chairman, that I think the greatest disability that the :ity has laboured under has been the single memb er ward system, and I appr ecia te the rationale for it 1nd I understand it, but I must say in all sincerity, Mr.

Chairman, that it has developed a parochialism - and I know many people don't like that word - but it has developed a parochialism which I think 1as been detrimental to the functioning of the city. I realize that we have to keep inten tion, the whole 1ue stion of the need to be a local representative, but on the other hand there must be broad vie ws aken of the city probl ems.

I think that where we have run into real and major problems has been vhere the individual Councillors from individual wards have felt that thei r wards and their areas are •ei ng hurt by certai n city overall policies and this is going to happen,

part icularly in areas of ransportation. Everybody wants a bus route, nobody wants it on thei r street. Everybody wants a •ridge, but nobody wants the crossing on thei r street or near them. And I read ily admit to the same. I ve on a street that many, many years ago, 35 years ago, more than that, was de signated as a bridge oute for a river crossing and I would fight that if it came. But that is the problem, Mr . Chairman. I think hat if you could see it in your mind to go to election at large, if not on the six-district basis, on the welve-district basis, that that would have a great effect.

I read in the paper that Mr. Sp ivak made somewhat oft he same suggesti on. At Council, Councillor :uken made that suggestion, . and I make it to you now, and what more unholy trin ity could you get han those three pe ople making the same sugges tion? Mr . Chairman, the one cla use that gives me a great concern in the bill, and I am not going to spend oo much time on this because you have had many rep resenta tions with respect to it, and the city's •fficial position dealt with it, that is the

section proposed, 654. I can underst and, although I do not gree with, the reasons for your seek ing authority to set aside plans or other zoning matters. As I say I lon't agree with it, but I can under stnad understand it; but I cannot either understand or agree with. ·our request to have wider authority which would give the Lieutenant -Governor -in-Council, the �abinet, the authority to override every act, by-law, plan, reso lution, order, decision or procedure 'stablished by Council. Mr.

Chairman, that either means that you have lost confidence in local 10vernment, and that you feel you must have this residual authority, or I hope it re ally means that it vas a drafting slip and that you re ally didn't intend to go as far as the Act says . you are going to go or 169

Law Amendments Monday, May 30, 1977 that you could go. I choose to bel ie ve the latter, Mr. Chai rman, because I think that the rela tionshi� between the Cify of Winnipeg and the Province of Man itoba has not been that bad. We have had ou1 disagreements, obviously, as any two governments will. You have disagreements from time to timE with Ottawa, I underst and. I think that you don't really have to go that far, and I think on basic princi ples of good, municipal government, you shouldn't go that far. I recog nize the fact that constitutionally, legally, you have the power to do it.

The city of course, a! we heard from Mrs. Que en-H ughes and the long lecture that she gave us- very interes ting - we arE creatu res of the Provincia l Governme nt. But I don't think that you have to do that. I think we arE mature enough as a city government to handle matters which you delega te to us, and I think that is < very devastating proposal, frankly, Mr . Chairman, and I would hope that when you come to conside1 amendm ents that you will consider that and that you will set it aside. If I may for a minute, Mr .

Chairman, turn to the proposal with respect to finances which substitute! the Min ister for the Municipal Board. I would like to say that contrary to the official position o Council, I agree enti rely with it. The reason . that I agree with it is not particularly because I have grea confidence in the Min ister of Fi nance, although I like to think he is a good friend of mine, but I feel tha a Min ister of Fi nance, no matter who he is, whether he is Mr. Mil ler or Mr. X or Mr.

Y, is more easily go at, is more easily identified as a public and elected official, and is more easily dealt with than is thE Municipal Board. Now the Municipal Board is an appoi nted board, Mr. Chairman, as you are aware. The wholE concept of appoi nted boards doing government work is contrary to my way of thinking.

I feel that thE political group should take respo nsibil ity for their policie s, and so I feel that if the Min ister of Financ E feels that the City of Winnipeg has been unwise in its presenta tion of budget or has done someth in� in the financial area that is detrimen tal to the total inter est of the province, then he should accept thE respo nsibil ity and make the decision, and no government should hide behind the Municipal Board o any other board, for that matter. So, Mr . Chairman, I welcome the change, contrary to the majoritl ' view of Council.

I welcome the change and I would prefer, frankly, to deal with Mr . Mi ller than I woulc to deal with the Municip al Board. MR. J. FRANK JOHNSTON: What about Mr. Doern? MR. NORRIE: Mr . Doern is not Min ister of Fi nance. Now, Mr. Chairman, let me also say that there are cer tain amend ments with respect to the Offic� of the Mayor, and having regard to all of the problems that relate I hes itate even to mention this, but want to try to deal with this secti on on the basis of a syste m, rather than on the basis of incumbents either mayors or councillors.

May I just say that I think that the mayor, under the present City of Winnip eg Act, has all th1 powers that he needs or that she or it needs to be a strong and re sponsible mayor. I think that th1 strength of the mayor is really a function of the kind of programs that he offers and it isn't a function o how he gets elected, or it isn't a function of what statutary authority basically he has, or the number o committees he has access to. There could be a situation where the mayor could sit on ever: committee that Council est ablished and yet he could be the weak est mayor that the City ofWinnip e! every produced.

I think, Mr . Chairman, that the suggestion that there be the possibilit y of an individual standing fo both Council and for the office of mayor at the same time can only strengthen the office of the mayo and make it more responsibl e. Mr . Chairman, I think that ifthat happened, we would probably find fo the first time that there would be a mayorality election on the issues. I think that what this city ha: lacked for a long time is an election on the issues. Again, Mr. Chairman, I want to stay away from perso nalities.

I'm talking about a system and this i: not simply for this election but it's for the next one, and the next one, and the next one. Whateve incumbent is ther e, he would face the same system. I first read this sugges tion, Mr . Chairman, I m us say, in a publication called "The New Democr at", and it was an

article by one of our councillors Councillor Corri n. My first reaction was that's not a very hot idea because it's fraught with all sorts o problems. But when I re-exa mined it and I opened my mind, it seemed to me that there was a lot o merit in it because it's not unusual for a leader of a political party to come from his caucus. it's no unusual for the Premier or the Pri me Min ister to represent a local constituency and I assume that the : both do both jobs very wel l. it's not unusual for a Min ister - a Cabine t Min ister -t o carry tw1 portfolios.

So it isn't a ques tion of too much work or not being able to do it. Again, it depends on tht individual. And if ther e is a feel ing, Mr . Chairman, that it's not a good thing for the mayor also to be • councillor and have to participate in local community committee mee tings and so on ... Although personally think that that would keep a mayor back in the grass roots and he'd find out what wa really going on in a community.

If you feel that that isn't a good idea, there could be a systen developed and you could provide for it, whereby if a person who ran as councillor and as mayorw a el ectetl'to both positions, that the runner-up for his council seat could take that seat and he woul1 vacate that and assume the office of mayor. There are a number of things that could happen. 170

Law Amendments Monday, May 30, 1977 But I suggest to you that the concept is sound not just for this election but as a procedure, as a 'ystem of government. And so I think that that ought to be left in the amendm ents. There is one prob lem, Mr. Chai rman, and that relates to the mayor's re lationship to Council. That s, any mayor's rela tionship to Council. As you know, at the present time the mayor is Chairman of lOth the Executive Policy Committee and he is also Chairman of the Council.

Now the problem arises hat re ally when councillors attempt to get information from the Executive Pol icy Committe e at the ime of its report to Council, there is nobody really respo nsible. There is nobody there to answer the 1uestions because the obvious person to respond to que stions is the Chairman of the Committee. \nd we do this in other committee areas. The Chairman of each of the Standing Committees present hei r reports and they are open to questions and inquir ies from the floor. This doesn't happen with ·espect to the Executive Committee.

Some people say it's because their report doesn't contain mything worth ques tioning but that's not always the case. lt is sometimes the case. I think that if you were to consider the possibil ity of making the mayor the Chairman of the :xecutive Committee, which of course is opposite to what you're propos ing, then I would think that rou should say that the mayor would not be the Chairman of Council because he would then be in a )Osition to chair the Executive Committee, to be responsi ble as its spoke sman, and to answer to �ouncil for its decisions and rec ommendations.

And that would mean, of course, that you would 1ave to then, in the legisla tion, provide for someo ne to chair Council. I don't want to call him a 3peaker because that isn't the function perhaps. But in that role prin cipally, so the mayor would then )e free as an active member, as the Premier is, as the Prime Min ister is an active member of the .egis lature to present legis lation and to be res ponsible for his committee's report. This is where I think we have lacked in Council.

We have certai nly been criticized and for good ·easons from councillors for not supplying the necessary information in the Executive Committee ·eports. With respect, Mr. Chairman, to the Community Committees, I don't really propose to spend very nuch time with respect to that because you have heard good representa tion from various councillors md you have heard representa tion from res ident advisers. As I said earli er, I belie ve every area ;hould oper ate differently and, to a large degree, it has operated differe ntly.

Some areas have been ;ritici zed because they have not operated as other s have and the judgment has been made that )ecause they don't operate the same, the other operates better. I think it just ope rates differently. it joesn't ope rate better or worse; it ope rates differe ntly. I must say that my own experience has been that the Community Committee work has been, for ne, the most frustrati ng. it's the meeting that I least like to atte nd. And the reason for that is that in my )articular area, we are a Community Committee which was in a sense artificially created.

The West <i ldonan Community Committee, or the St. Ja mes Community Committee, or the St. Vital �o mmunity Committee had a geogra phical and had a former political base. For t Rouge was carved, n a sense, out of the old City of Winnip eg and peo ple had different rela tionships. And it's been a natter of attem pting to bring pe ople together in the Fort Rouge area, which has not been easy. There :tre many diverse interests in the area. That's not my frustration. My frustration is this: that the �om munity Committee has nothing basically to do, with the exception of zoning matters.

Now, many of the suburban Community Committees have perhaps exercised a lot more authority :han we have and it's because ... For instance, in St. Jame s, their Works and Operations district, its )OUndaries have been pro terminus with the Community Committee boundarie s and so they have )een in a position wher e they have re ally, to a large deg ree, carried on as they had in the past, as the )id municipal council. And I give them full marks for that. it's been, for many of them, a very satisfying �xperience. For me, it has been the opposite kind of experience. lt's been a very frustrating �xpe rience.

So I think that as you hear the different presenta tions that are bei ng made to you, you have to ·ealize that we are largely a product of our en vironment, as I said, and I think that you need to give ;ome weight to those differences. Mr. Chairman, I have wrestled in my mind, as I'm sure many of you have, with the problems that 1ave been created -a nd if you haven't been aware of them, you have read about them - where there s this inner city, outer city, conflict, if you will.

Maybe that's too strong a word, but cert ainly it's a 'e elin g that the inner city, outer city, inter ests are not common; that they have diverse inter ests and :hat the voting power lies in one group and so ther efore the inner city does not really get treated wel l. I'm not sure, Mr . Chairman, how we can real ly correct this unless we move, perhaps, to break jown the inner city, outer city, arrangement. And I say this with some trepidation because I re ally ;herish for the suburban groups, and I envy them in many ways, the identit y and the local feeling that :hey have.

They real ly do in West Kildonan and St. Vital, and so on. They really do, I think, have a ;om munity feeling. You don' t get that so much in the nei ghbourhoods in the inner city simply Jecause that real ly hasn't been our orienta tion. lt seems to me that what we might do is we might try ;;omehow to relate those inner city areas to the suburban areas. I think metro, really, had the problem )artly resolved because the metro wards, as you may remember, were pie-shaped and they ran from 171

Law Amendments Monday, May 30, 1977 the interior of the city through to the suburbs. And so a councillor who sat on metro didn't represent either the inner city or the suburbs; he represented a little bit of both. And I think that makes him a better councillor because he has to be aware of proble ms of two areas and he can't hide beh ind the fact that he's rep rese nting either an inner or an outer cit y area. And I think also it would tend to bring the two groups together.

I say that rec ognizing that that may perhaps be at the jeopardy of the suburban areas and I don't want, real ly, to do anything to dissipate that because that is some thing that they are very conscious of, very proud of, and it works wel l. Mr. Chairman, may I just, in conclusion, say that I think that the whole question of res ident advisory groups is some thing that I don't re ally want to speak very much about because the hour is late and you have been very patient, and you have heard a lot about it. But may I just say that in my view you cannot legisla te citizen participation.

You can make provision for it in the legisla tion. But I think that pe ople relate to issues. I think that they respond to issues and if there are issues in our community, people come out. If there are matters that they want to discuss, they are there. But I don't really think you can ask the average citizen ... And there are many excep tions to this and you have heard many of the dedicated people that are exceptions to this who have come before you. But you can't expect the average citizen to attend Community Committee meetings where the reg ular and routine business of the community is being processed.

I don't think that's to say that that particular citizen who doesn't come to that kind of community meeting is any le ss inter ested in his community than the citizen that comes out on the issues. He's le ss persistent. He is less prepared to give up his time. On the surface he might seem to be less involved but I don't think he is. And I give full marks, Mr. Chairman, to the resident advisory groups that exist and work hard and those who attend the meetings.

But ther e are many, many citizens who don't attend and I think we ought not to discount them because we see them only once or twice a year when the issues are there. I am convinced that people will come out when ther e are important issues that affect them and it's very difficult to tie them into a system which is on a re gular basis. But the people who do wish to do that should be given every · encour agement. And we try to do that. But I don't think that we sh uuld be too concerned about the fact that advisory groups and community clinics operate differently in different areas. Mr .

Chairman, I thank you for your patience. I am amazed at your stamina and if ther e are any questions, I would be prepared to answer them. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Councillor Norrie. I have three mem bers of the Committee wish to ask questi ons. Mr . Che rniack. MR. CHERNIACK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to assure Councillor No rrie that not only are we accustomed to listen ing but I, for one, apprecia te the candor in which you have given us your opin ion. I want to take advantage of your presence to ask some que stions to deve lop some of the points you were making. Fi rstly, and quickly,

Section 654 which deals with the exemptions by the Lieut enant-Gove rnor-in Council. Rea ding it, I see that it's as broad as you descri bed it to be. Now can we come to an agreement -I mean you and I- on a red uction in the scope but still a recog nition that the province is attempti ng to regain the power that it had, and which all other provinces have and all other municipalit ies, of carrying out its own programs without having to comply with the city's zoning by laws. MR. NORRIE: We ll, if I may respond through you, Mr. Chairman, to Mr .

Chernia ck's question, I would hope that the position of the city might be re cognized that no change would be necessary in that procedu re. And I say this for this rea son. Un der the City ofWinnip eg Act, the city is charged with the planning for the City of Winnip eg. And I think that if you feel that that is a good power to give to the city then you ought to give it and you ought not to restrict it. Now, if you feel that somehow you must maintain some exemption for Crown agencies and so on, although I don't agree with that I can under stand the rationale for it, I would hope that there might ...

And you have made a provision for a second meeti ng, or a meeting to review zoning matters, 654(4), that that's probably as far as you could go ... In other words, there is a provision for a re-hea ring, and so on. But the criticism that any government who ope rates under that

section will always receive is that pre sumably the person who is appoi nted to report to the Min ister is appoi nted by the Min ister, or appoi nted by the government, and pre sumably would, at least in some degree, be sympathetic to the point of view that the government of the day had. So it would be my view, Mr. Chairman, we should stick with what really was your very courageous act when the first City of Winnipeg Act was introduced, and make the Provincial Government subject to the zoning re gulations of the City. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Norr ie, I suppose you know or you real ize that my courageous act floundered and that when we did bring this in and est ablish this it was unique in Canada. MR. NORRIE: I do. MR/CHERNIACK: And the fact that the government now feels that it cannot continue on that is an indication that it is not prepared so to do. So I now accept the fact that you belie ve it ought not to be changed, but if it were changed it should be restricted in scope and breadth and also you speak of the 172

Law Amendments Monday, May 30, 1977 eari ng. Would you not say that the mere fact that it's a public heari ng is much more important than tho makes the reco mmen dation to the Min ister? MR. NORRIE: Not rea lly, no. MR. CHERNIACK: No. You think that the public would not be that much interested in what is trought before the heari ng, what is developed ... MR. NORRIE: Oh, I think the public would be, Mr . Chai rman, but you can draw an analogy tetween a concept which I happen to feel very strongly about and support, which many of the city tfficials don't, and that is the inquiry under the Expropriation Act.

That is a public heari ng. it's subject D all the representa tions that can be made. But the realism of the fact is that those who appoint the nquiry Officer, those who appo int the Chairman of the hea ring have the upper hand in a sense. They MR. CHERNIACK: You do realize - pardon the interruption - your analogy, that heari ng has no Jdicial power whatsoever. MR. NORRIE: Oh, I appreciate that, and many times it's a

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-4-la6
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 4th hansardpdf la6.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	ec5cab78c1dbb55900438ce7ed406b2212ecfea5

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