Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 7 (37th Legislature, 3rd Session)

37-3-7

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session- Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under tire authority of Tire Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LII No.7- 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, November 21,2001

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARRETT, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie MURRAY, Stuart NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott, Hon. STEFANSON, Heather STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Kirkfield Park Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Lac du Bonnet Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Rossmere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Tuxedo Dauphin-Roblin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

235 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, November 21, 2001 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS MINISTERIAL STATEMENT S Domestic Violence Hon. Diane McGifford (Minister responsible for the Status of Women): Mr. Speaker, I have a statement for the House. I rise today to speak about an issue that affects us all, domestic violence. As November is Domestic Violence Prevention Month, it is important to raise public awareness and essential to recognize that incidents of domestic violence against women happen every day. No one is immune from the potentially devastating effects of this abuse.

It crosses all age groups and all social, cultural and geographic boundaries. Having said that, we know that women are most often the victims. This Government has worked hard to reduce domestic violence by providing an increase in those supports and services which help abused women leave violent relationships and seek protection from abusers and by conducting public awareness campaigns. As well, on November 6, the Government announced an additional $1.1 million in funding to support a multifaceted initiative to prevent domestic vio lence, including a men's resource centre.

As Minister responsible for the Status of Women, today I am pleased to table a public opinion survey on domestic violence issues in Manitoba The survey highlights the fact that we have made progress. Four out of five Mani tobans surveyed said they were concerned about this issue, with a full 50 percent expressing strong concern. A decade or so ago, many people viewed domestic violence as a private family matter. The survey shows that public awareness levels are high and that the Government's public awareness campaigns are succeeding.

I note that when individuals were asked what they thought to be the causes of domestic violence, substance abuse and stress greatly outranked all other views. Stress includes financial and job-related stress, in addition to general stress. Almost one half or 46 percent volunteered alcohol abuse as a main cause, and drugs were considered a cause by more than 20 percent. With respect to solutions, nearly one third indicated public education, while 22 percent mentioned stricter laws and penalties.

This is useful information as it helps government to direct public information campaigns toward a more complete understanding of domestic violence dynamics. The survey provides baseline data against which we can compare our progress in follow-up surveys. * (13:35) In

summary, Mr. Speaker, violence against women touches far too many lives, and we must remain strong and vigilant in our efforts to end these crimes. Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): I want to thank the minister for her statement today and indicate that all too often we see issues of domestic violence in our province. I think governments, over a long period of time, have worked very diligently to try to put in place the resources and the programs that would deal with the issues of domestic violence.

I would like to note that the domestic violence campaign that is ongoing-! commend the Government for continuing the campaign that was launched when I was the Minister of Family Services under the previous administration. I believe that it does need to continue, and we need to be ever vigilant. It is good to have survey results so that we can move forward and try to ensure that we implement the proper programs for the proper reasons.

236 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 21, 2001 I do note with some interest that this is the Government that did iintroduce wide-open alcohol sales and consumption on Sundays. We know that, according to the survey, I believe over 40 percent, 46 percent of individuals that were surveyed do relate domestic violence to alcohol consumption. I would also like to note, Mr. Speaker, that the Manitoba Medical Association just recently in their last publication talked about: Northern MDs decry Sunday alcohol sales.

They indicate that there are very many social consequences as a result of alcohol conswnption, and they are lobbying very strongly in the Flin Flon area, the doctors up there, to try to force the municipality not to allow Sunday alcohol sales and consumption in public plac(�S. It is interesting to note that doctors obviously were not consulted before this Government moved ahead with their Sunday alcohol legislation.

I would hope they would take to heart some of the concerns that our physicians, the specialists in this area, are putting forward and maybe reconsider the direction they have taken, because certainly domestic violence is highlighted as one of the issues that they are very concerned about, and they do not believe that the changes that this Government has made are going to have a positive impact. They believe it will have a negative impact. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I ask to speak on the minister's comment. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave? [Agreed} Mr.

Gerrard: It is important that we are discussing domestic violence today. This is quite an important subject for Manitobans. It is an area that we should work to reduce the incidence of domestic violence in Manitoba.

That being said, I think it is quite significant that we should go beyond public opinion surveys and need for good social policy, much more funding of social sciences research conducted through qualified people at universities, for example, in Manitoba, and that this research might probe questions like has the incidence of domestic violence gone up since the NDP have changed the laws and made liquor more available on Sundays? I think we need, as the minister has pointed out, a better understanding of the reasons for domestic violence and those things which we can do to reduce domestic violence.

We have already heard discussion of the role of alcohol, but there are clearly other factors, and what can be done in terms of reduction of stress and reduction of alcohol abuse. These are very important subjects. * (13:40) TABLING OF REPORT S Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): I am pleased to rise today to table a statement as to fidelity bonds, pursuant to

section 20 of The Public Officers Act, and Manitoba Hydro's Quarterly Report for the Six Months Ended September 30, 2001. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 7-The Local Author ities Election Amendment Act Hon. Rosano Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): I move, seconded by the Minister of Labour (Ms. Barrett), that leave be given to introduce Bill 7, The Local Authorities Election Amendment Act, and that the same be now received and read the first time. Motion presented. Mr. Speaker: Is that on behalf of the honour able Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Ms. Friesen)? Ms. Wowchuk: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker: On behalf of the honourable Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. Ms. Wowchuk: On behalf of the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, I am pleased to introduce Bill 7, The Local Authorities Election Amendment Act. This bill proposes changes to the non-resident electoral provision. Specifi cally, this bill sets the maximum number of

November 21, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 237 non-resident owners of a parcel of land who may vote at a municipal election to two persons. Motion agreed to. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Minister of Education, Training and Youth Resignation Request Mr. Stuar t Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, on November 15, in this Legislative Assembly, the Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Praznik) asked the Minister of Education (Mr.

Caldwell), and I quote: "In his whole handling of this adult education centre issue, can he assure Manitobans that he and his department, throughout this, have acted in a consis tent, open and honest manner?" The Minister of Education rose in his seat and replied: "Yes, Mr. Speaker." We have learned that the Minister of Education has forced the school division to falsify their enrolment numbers, that they have forced them to hide payment. Therefore, the Minister of Education has misled this Chamber and all Manitobans.

Yesterday, as he had been for several days, the minister repeatedly referred to the judgment of the Provincial Auditor and indicated in this House that he accepted the Auditor's judgments. Today, we learn from the Provincial Auditor that he believes the conduct of the minister and the deputy minister in their transactions with the Agassiz School Division should be reviewed by the Justice Department for criminal fraud. Will the Premier do the right thing and ask for the resignation of the Minister of Education? Hon.

Gary Doer (Premier): The Minister of Education has indicated to the public some time ago that the audit referred to as the investigation of the adult learning centre, called the program in the Morris-Macdonald School Division No. 19, would be referred to the Justice Department, and that was conducted and conveyed on October 4. * (13: 45) Agassiz School Division Adult Learning Centre-Funding Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the Premier refuses to do the right thing by asking for the resignation of the Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell). Why?

Is it because the Premier and the Treasury Board were involved? So my question is very simple. My question is to the Premier. I want to know when he first knew about the fraudulent transaction with the Agassiz School Division. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, if there is no fraud involved in the Agassiz School Division, will the Leader of the Opposition resign? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. May I remind all honourable members, when the Speaker rises, all members should be in their seats and the Speaker should be heard in silence. I would ask the co-operation of all honourable members.

Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, my question again is to the Premier, and it is very simple: When did the Premier first learn about the fraudulent transaction with the Agassiz School Division, or is he part of some sort of cover-up? Mr. Doer: There is only one cover-up in the Legislature that I am aware of. Let me table a memo in 1998, from the Director of Administrative Services in the Dep artment of Education. You will recall that we asked for Lionel Orlikow's Upward Bound Program to be subject to a review and an audit. We are now at the end of the first term, and I was wondering if the review and audit will proceed.

My reason for asking is that I am hearing from a source whom I have no reason to doubt that the desired administrative and programmatic connections between Upward Bound and school divisions are non-existent. In 1998, who cancelled the audit for the people of Manitoba? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

238 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 21, 2001 * (13:50) Mr. Speaker: Order. We are very early into Question Period and we still have a long way to go. The decorum is already getting a little out of hand for the viewing public and the guests in the gallery. I would ask a little co-operation on the decorum in the House. Every member will have an opportunity to ask questions if they wish, so I would ask the co-operatiion of all honourable members. Adult Learning CE:ntres-F unding Treasury Board Submissions Mr.

Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): Yesterday the Minister of Finance said that the Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) was responsible for an $868-million budget. On May I 0, the Minister of Education put out a press release announcing $14 million of funding for 43 adult learning centres. Did the Minister of Education follow the long-establis hed practice of coming to Treasury Board with a detailed Treasury Board submission signed by the minister or his deputy, or were these details conveyed to Treasury Board in another manner? Hon.

Greg Selinger (Mi1nister of Finance): I would like to table a memorandum in the Legislature that I received from the Secretary to Treasury Board yesterday and have it distrib uted , please. The memorandum indicates the practice used in delegating authority with respect to these grants is a practice which has been in effect for several budget years, and that was the practice followed in the year in question. Mr.

Speaker, that indicates the delegation is noted with the Estimates decisions for the year 2000-2001 Treasury Board authorized grant payments totalling $615,142, 200 for school operating grants to be distributed to school divisio ns on the basis of the funding formula. Clearly the practice that was followed was the practice which has been in place for several years in Treasury Board. Mr.

Gilleshammer: Is the! minister telling this House that the Finance Dc!partment flowed this money to the adult learning centres with no documentation, with no scrutiny by Treasury Board staff and by the Deputy Minister respon sible for Finance? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, the practice that was followed was the long-established process that was in place , as indicated by this memorandum from the secretary to Treasury Board, and the process reviewed the grants to school divisio ns with respect to adult learning programs and then delegated that authority to the department, as has been the long-standing practice.

Agassiz School Division Funding-M inister's Awareness Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): would ask the Minister of Finance: When did he first become aware of the scheme to under handedly flow half a million dollars to Agassiz School Division in this deceptive way? When did the Finance Minister first know about this? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I would remind members opposite that on a radio transcript yesterday the former Minister of Finance confirmed to the public of Manitoba that red flags had gone up in 1998 and that he was aware of overspending in the writ period in 1999.

When he had a choice to inform people in his- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Gilleshammer: I would indicate to the Premier that he is wrong. I did not say that there were any red flags in 1998. I indicated that these issues were coming forward in the fall of 1999. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. A point of order is a very serious matter and I would ask the co-operation of all members of the House. The honourable First Minister (Mr. Doer), were you rising on the same point of order?

On the point of order raised by the honourable Member for Minnedosa, he does not

November 21, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 239 have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. *** Mr. Speaker: The honourable First Minister, have you concluded your comments? Mr. Doer: Thank you very much. I will provide the transcript for the member opposite. The issue was raised, and the matter was known to members opposite. We have memos talking and asking, begging the former govern ment to have an audit. At least this minister and this administration had the ability and the fortitude to have the Provincial Auditor look at the actual lack of any management in the adult education branch. Mr.

Speaker, we have a situation where, in 1999, without any reference to the first quarter statement put out by the former Minister of Finance, the expenditures in the adult education line were $17 million for a $6-million appro priation. That is 300 percent over budget. They should start looking at the mirror. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I will ask once again for the co-operation of all honourable members. It is very difficult to hear the questioning, and it is very difficult to hear the answers. I would ask for the co-operation of all honourable members.

It is not who shouts the loudest that is going to be heard. It is the person who has the mike. So I would ask the co-operation of all honourable members. *(13:55) Minister of Education, Training and Youth Delegation of Authority Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, yesterday in this House the Minister of Finance stated that the Minister of Education (Mr.

Caldwell) had the delegated authority to request that the Department of Finance cut a cheque to the Agassiz School Division based on a request that contained falsified information that it provided to the Department of Finance from the Minister of Education and from the Deputy Minister of Education and that this resulted in an overpayment of half a million dollars to the Agassiz School Board. I would like to ask the Minister of Finance: When does any minister of the Crown have the authority to spend taxpayers' dollars based on fraudulent information? Hon.

Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): As the memo indicates, once a total funding level is established for the program through the Estimates process, Treasury Board delegates the authority to the department to make specific grants payments to individual school divisions. The Minister of Education has acknowledged his error; he has taken steps to correct that with a new change in the program funding.

He has volunteered and received an audit, the recom mendations of which he is willing to follow, and, of course, now he is going to follow through with legislation which will tighten up even further the accountability requirements for these types of programs. Mr. Loewen: Mr. Speaker, this Minister of Finance did not come clean with the House yesterday; he is not coming clean today. Point of Order Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, aside from the Opposition member's skating very close to the line of unparliamentary language, if not slightly over, I do draw the attention of the Chair to the fact that a supplementary question should need no

preamble. Would you please remind the member of that rule of this House? Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Government House Leader, he does have a point of order. Beauchesne's Citation 409(2) advises that a supplementary question should not require a

preamble, and at this point I would like to caution all honourable members about their choice of words. I would choose them very carefully. Mr. Loewen : Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Finance if in this whole sordid affair he is trying to protect the Minister of

240 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 21, 200 I Education (Mr. Caldwell), or is he attempting to protect his whole Cabinet who, the Minister of Education indicated on Friday, knew all about this fraudulent misrepresen1tation? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, it is not a question of protecting anybody. It is a question of indicating the truth of what really happened. The truth of what really happened is that there was a delegated authority as is past practice, as is indicated in this memo. The minister has indicated where he though1t an error was made.

He has taken proactive action to clean up the mess that was left by the previous government in changing the funding from a formula-based approach to a program-based approach which has more accountability buiit into it. He has gone further and asked for an audited report, and he has willingly- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. * (14:00) Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Minister of Finance has the floor. I ask for co-operation, please. Mr. Selinger: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Not only has he changed the basis upon which these programs are funded, he has sought out and received an Auditor's report, the recommen dations of which he has agreed to follow. Now he is bringing in legislation to bring even greater accountability to this area of expenditure. Mr. Speaker: I am going to once again ask the co-operation of the House. As the Speaker, I have to be able to hear the person that has the mike for the breaching of rules or for using unparliamentary language. When people are :tshouting back and forth, I cannot hear the comments.

So I ask the co-operation of all honourable members, please. Agassiz School Division Adult Learning Cen1tres-Funding Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): I would like to ask the Minister of Finance if he can tell this House if the Minister of Education and the Deputy Minister of Education misrepresented the facts in the document that they sent forward to the minister's department requesting that the Agassiz School Division be over-funded by $500,000. Did they misrepresent the facts? Hon.

Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): The Department of Education put forward a total package for Estimates for which they received delegated authority to distribute. The minister has been very forthright in saying that he admitted an error in the way that that was handled, Mr. Speaker, with respect to Agassiz School Division, as a transition payment. He has indicated very clearly that he did it in the interest of stabilizing education programming for children in that school division.

Further, he has indicated and he has acted with dispatch to change the funding formula from the transition funding to a more account able form of program-based funding and sought out an Auditor's report, and now is bringing forward legislation. He has acted in a proactive manner from the day he has taken this issue in hand. If only the previous government would have acted with the same degree of alacrity and dispatch, we would not have had this financial mess in this program area. Agassiz School Division Adult Learning Centres-Funding Mr.

Leonard Derkach (Russell): The Minister of Education has misled this House. His conduct of dishonesty, deceit, and the cover-up and forcing school divisions to produce fraudulent numbers has placed him in an untenable situation. I want to ask this Minister of Education: He said yesterday that he knew about the numbers before the transaction was made. I want to ask him why he did not stop the transaction, knowing that it was fraudulent, before the transaction occurred. Hon.

Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): The character assassination, libellous comments, slanderous comments that, if made outside of this House would lead to legal action, is despicable. I have been sitting here for the last number of days reflecting upon these comments which, if made outside of the House would have consequences for those making them.

November 21, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 241 This Government, when confronted with an overexpenditure in adult learning centres in this province to the tune of almost $11 million, took action immediately to freeze those funds, to put caps on levels of funding support for individual students, changed the policy to move to a program-based funding process for adult learn ing centres, and have tabled in the Throne Speech its intent to have legislation this session. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, this minister has admitted to Manitobans that he knew about this transaction before it occurred. Mr. Speaker: Order.

Point of Order Bon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): On a point of order similar to one I raised earlier, a supplementary question should need no

preamble. That is Beauchesne's Citation 409. Would you please remind this honourable member of that rule? Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Government House Leader, he does have a point of order. Beauchesne's Citation 409(2) advises that a supplementary question should not require a

preamble. I ask the honourable member to please put his question. * * * Mr. Derkach: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Why did this minister not stop this fraud ulent transaction to Agassiz School Division before it occurred, since he knew about it before it occurred? Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, as I have said repeatedly, I accept the Auditor's judgment and take full responsibility for the error that was made in this process.

The decision on Agassiz was made through the department's delegated authority, and I suppose if there is an error here and in hindsight I think I have acknowledged that there was-we erred on the side of children, students, learners, and educational excellence. I quote from the Winnipeg Free Press today: That the decision saved Agassiz School Division from making deep cuts in services, especially in classroom aides for special needs students, Mr. Speaker. Where the department erred, and where I erred, as I have acknowledged, we erred on the side of children and learning. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Speaker, so what does this minister have to say to Manitobans when just today the servant of this Legislature, the Provincial Auditor, has said that this transaction with Agassiz School Division should be investigated for fraud? Bon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the members opposite are taking great liberty with language and privileges of members on this side. I reported to this House three questions ago, to the member from Kirkfield Park, that the matter was immediately referred to the Depart ment of Justice, and that reference was made on October 4.

Agassiz School Division Funding-Criminal Investigation Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, this is not a matter, as the minister would like everyone to believe, of a simple mistake. Today, the servant of this Legislature, the Auditor, when asked on a public radio program made it very clear that this transaction must go to the Department of Justice for an investigation as to fraud. When asked, do you want the Department of Justice involved because it might be fraud, that Auditor said, right.

I want to ask this Minister of Education: Is the reason why this Government is bringing in legislation, that they need a bill to ensure he will be honest? Bon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, again, the matter was referred to the Department of Justice. The Auditor correctly stated also, something I would suggest that members opposite would pay attention to, that he would have to await the findings, the independent findings of the Justice Department. Those are the people who are experts in these matters not, I would suggest, members opposite, starting with the member from Kirkfield Park.

242 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 21, 2001 The issue of awaiting the findings of the Justice Department dealing with matters arising from the audit that was initiated by this Government and was refused to be initiated by the previous government when the same bells were ringing prior to the last election campaign, they had a choice. They could go to the Auditor, investigate these complaints and find out what was inappropriate in terms of financing to protect the taxpayer, to protect the students, or they could neglect it, neglect the advice. We chose to go to the Auditor to get to the bottom of it, Mr.

Speaker. * (14:10) Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Justice. Mr. Minister, will you tell this House whether or not the investigation requested by the Auditor, including the trans action done with Agassiz by the minister and deputy minister-is that transaction and their role part of the criminal investigation by his department? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorne y General): The member opposite is playing very loose with descriptors.

I also note that the Education critic opposite was apparently saying on the radio the last couple of days that red flags were going up in 1998, and today he said: Now it was not until 1999. I think the Opposition should decide what version of the truth it wishes to put on the record. Mr. Speaker, yesterday and this morning, I was briefed by the deputy. I was briefed yesterday and further this morning or today by the Deputy Attorney General, who advises that on October 4 the audit report was referred to the Department of Justice.

The department's review concluded that there was a proper basis to refer Morris-Macdonald to the police. At the same time, the department concluded that on the basis of the Auditor's Report then� was not a sufficient basis to refer the issue of Agassiz to the police. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speake1r, I want to ask the Minister of Justice, since the Auditor has asked specifically for the transaction and the role of the minister and deputy, if he did what every other Attorney General does when a minister or deputy are being investigat•ed.

Did he refer this to an outside Crown attorney to ensure that the decision made would be done without any, any question as to whether or not it was done properly? Has this been referred to a Crown attorney outside of Manitoba? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Day after day, question after question, members opposite play loose with the truth to try to build a straw case on this issue. I said very clearly that the former Minister of Finance was aware during the election campaign that he confirmed it on a radio broadcast. I have the direct quote that the member opposite denied just a moment ago in the House.

It came to our attention. I quote the former Minister of Finance: It came to our attention during the writ period and afterward that we had a volume problem and we had an overexpen diture problem. Mr. Speaker, then he puts out a financial statement a couple of weeks later after the writ period that completely covers up the fact that they are $11 million over budget. Minister of Education, Training and Youth Accountability Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, my question to the Minister of Education: The minister has publicly called the system of funding adult learning present, when he became the minister, an absurd system. I table today a report which the minister received shortly after he became the minister on November 10, 1999, which made a very strong recommendation to the minister. I quote from page 29: It is our strong recommendation that Manitoba Education and Training consider altering the existing funding structure for adult learners.

The system is currently based on September 30 enrolment, which is designed for the traditional school year but is not in alignment with the demographics of adult learners who tend to enter the senior year's mature program at various times throughout the year. I ask the minister: Why did the minister not listen to this advice and make the changes

November 21, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 243 quickly so that the problems with the African Immigrant Program in Classroom 56 would not have occurred? Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): It is a pleasure to get a question that does not begin with character assassination. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Caldwell: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Member for River Heights is quite right.

This Government did inherit a system for funding adult learning centres, in fact, a system for monitoring the quality of education in adult learning centres, from members opposite that was non-existent in terms of accountability for programs and financial responsibility. We immediately, as noted in the Auditor's report, began to make changes which represented important improvements to the processes involved for accountability in adult learning centres.

We made those changes in a systematic fashion through time so as not to destabilize adult learning centres in the province and thereby take opportunities away from Manitobans. We froze the amount of money that was available for adult learning centres in light of the $11-million overexpenditure that we received upon coming into office and made further steps. Mr. Gerrard: My supplementary to the Minister of Education.

I ask the minister to acknowledge that if he had moved quickly to put in place the changes as recommended in the report, then he himself would not have been in a position to ask Agassiz School Division to fudge its books by using an incorrect number of adult learners because the system would not have been based on adult learners, and then he would not be in the pickle that he is in today. Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, I do not accept the veracity of the statements made in the question placed by the member opposite.

But I do acknowledge, and I think that we have been dealing with this matter in the House obviously for the last week, that there was a system that was put in place and designed by members opposite that had no provision for accountability either in fiscal terms or in programmatic terms. I do acknowledge, as does the Provincial Auditor, that important improvements have been made to this including, as promised in the Throne Speech a week ago, legislation this session. Mr. Gerrard: My supplementary to the Minister of Education.

I ask the minister to acknowledge that if he had acted quickly to make these changes as recommended in the fall of 1999, then he would have in fact prevented both the Morris-Macdonald mess and the misappropriation error that he finds himself in. Mr. Caldwell: We have comments from the members opposite that they were aware of problems in this system in 1998.

Certainly we, upon coming into office, immediately froze the amount of money available for adult learning centres, immediately reduced the amount avail able on the per capita funding formula that is the root of this mess and proceeded to move from there to a program-based model. Subsequently this session, we will be introducing legislation to finally put into some legislative framework accountability that should have been part of this when the project was designed. Clean Environment Commission Rothsay Rendering Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr.

Speaker, I have been pleased since the last election to represent residents in east St. Boniface and Windsor Park to help them address long standing issues as being neighbours of the meat packing industry. I want to ask the Minister of Conservation if he can give details to the House of a successful mediation at the Clean Environment Commis sion between Rothsay Rendering and residents of this neighbourhood in order to eliminate odours that they have been faced to live with. Hon. Oscar Lathlin (Minister of Conser vation): I am pleased to answer the member's question.

Indeed, there was a severe odour problem experienced by citizens in that area that

244 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 21, 2001 she is referring to. So, earllier this year, we asked the Clean Environment Commission to under take an alternative dispute resolution process involving local citizens, 1the plant management and also our Department of Conservation to attempt to find a solution 1that was both effective and practical. As a result of that process, Rothsay is voluntarily installing additional odour control equipment that eve:ryone will be satisfied with. I want to congratulate the company for taking that action, Mr.

Speaker, and I also con gratulate the citizens in that area for participating responsibly in that process .. * (14:20) Agassiz School Division Fund ing-Justice DeiJtartment Review Mrs. Bonnie Mitchels01n (River East): The Minister of Justice just indicated that the review by his department on Agassiz School Division was complete. I would like to ask him when he received that information, and if the issue that the Provincial Auditor discussed this morning on CJOB was included in that review. Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Further to the infor mation I discussed earlier, as part of that briefing I was also advised today that on November 14, senior departmental lawye:rs had met with the RCMP and provided them with a full copy of the Provincial Auditor's report, asking them to initiate an investigation into the allegations in the report concerning Morris-Macdonald. Now, the issue of Agassiz was neither raised nor discussed during the meeting because of the department's conclusion that there was no basis to believe any offence had occurred.

But the RCMP have today confirmed that they are conducting an investigation into the Morris-Macdonald matter and that in the process of their review, they will be examining all aspects of the report. So that is normal and sound police practice, but that does not mean that everyone named in the report will, of course, be under police investigation. Mr. Speaker, the investigation concerns Morris-Macdonald, examined against the backdrop of the full report and any infor mation that comes to the attention of police during their investigation. Mrs.

Mit chelson: I would like to ask the Minister of Justice, since he has responded and indicated that there has not been a review of this transaction by the Department of Justice, Mr. Speaker, will he now undertake to ensure that an investigation of the transaction by the Depart ment of Education, as related to the Agassiz School Division, will be undertaken, as the Auditor said today publicly he expects to happen? Mr. Mackintos h: The Auditor may not know of the transactions that have occurred in the Department of Justice and between the Depart ment of Justice and the RCMP.

As I stated earlier to the House, the department and senior officials have looked at the matters, looked at the report of the Auditor, and the full report is before the RCMP. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Minister of Education, Training and Youth Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): Mr. Speaker, over the past few days, members of this House, the media and all Manitobans have had a tough time sorting out the contradictions of this Education Minister. Every day is a surprise. Who will he blame next for his gross mismanagement of nearly half a million dollars?

Did the Treasury Board approve the funds or not? Did the matter go before Cabinet or not? Were the funds funnelled to Agassiz School Division under appropriate authority or in error? Mr. Speaker, this minister does not know whether he is coming or going. The Education Minister has shown a clear inability to decide which set of facts he wishes to share with Manitobans. What is printed in the newspaper one day is recanted in this House the next. How

November 21, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 245 are Manitobans supposed to believe anything this minister has to say? How can this minister represent the interests of young people and educational organizations when he cannot even clearly represent the actions of his own department? Mr.

Speaker, the inconsistencies this min ister has provided, his refusal to provide Manitobans with honest and transparent account ability for his actions, demand that this minister do the right thing: Admit that he has mis managed his department, that he has acted with gross irresponsibility in the use of public funds, and that he cannot adequately represent those in Manitoba's education system. This minister must do the right thing. He must resign. Maison Gabrielle Roy Ms.

Linda Asper (Riel): Je vous annonce avec grand plaisir que la maison natale de l'auteure manitobaine, Gabrielle Roy, a ete designee comme site provincial du patrimoine. Gabrielle Roy, l'un des grands noms de Ia litterature canadienne, est nee a Saint-Boniface, ou elle a grandi. Avant de quitter le Manitoba en 1937 pour aller etudier a l'etranger, elle enseigne en region rurale et a Saint-Boniface, tout en participant a de nombreuses activites theatrales. En 1939, elle s'installe au Quebec et collabore a diverses publications. Son roman Bonheur d'occasion est publie en 1945 et lui apporte la gloire.

Ce roman pour lequel elle obtient le prestigieux Prix Femina se situe a l'avant-garde de Ia litterature consacn!e au milieu ouvrier canadien-fran�ais . L'oeuvre de Gabrielle Roy, dont une grande

partie se situe au Manitoba, est profondement marquee par les paysages des prairies et Ia pauvrete digne de son enfance. Son style simple, sur lequel repose une evocation emouvante de la vie quotidienne, lui a valu une renommee inter nationale. Grace a ses 18 ouvrages, Gabrielle Roy a re�u un grand nombre de prix, dont le Prix du Gouverneur general a trois reprises. Gabrielle Roy nait au 375, rue Descham bault a Saint-Boniface. Cette maison ou elle connait une enfance heureuse alimentera sa creation litteraire dans son recueil de nouvelles, Rue Deschambault.

Comme le disait si bien l'auteure: Certaines circonstances de ce recit ont ete puisees dans Ia realite. La Province du Manitoba felicite Ia Maison Gabrielle Roy, fondee pour offrir aux gens d'ici un musee qui rend un digne hommage a Gabrielle Roy. Translation It gives me great pleasure to announce to you that the birthplace of Manitoba author Gabrielle Roy has been designated a provincial heritage site. Gabrielle Roy, one ofCanadian literature's most prominent names, was born in St. Boniface and grew up there. Before leaving Manitoba in 1937 to study abroad she taught in the rural regions and in St.

Boniface, while participating in many theatrical activities. In 1939, she made her home in Quebec, where she worked for various publications. Her novel Bonheur d'occasion or The Tin Flute was published in 1945 and brought her fame. This novel, for which she won France's prestigious Prix Femina, stands in the vanguard of literature exploring the French-Canadian working class experience. Roy's writing, much of which was set in Manitoba, was deeply influenced by the prairie landscape and the genteel poverty of her early years.

Her simple style, with its moving evocation of everyday life, earned her an international reputation. As a result of her 18 works she was awarded many prizes, including three Governor General's Awards. Gabrielle Roy was born at 375 Deschambault Street in St. Boniface. This house, where she spent a happy childhood, was to provide inspiration for her collection of short stories Rue Deschambault or Street of Riches. As the author herself said, some of the circumstances in this book are taken from rea/life.

The province of Manitoba congratulates Maison Gabrielle Roy, founded to offer the local community a museum that is a fitting tribute to Gabrielle Roy. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable member's time has expired.

246 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 21, 2001 Education Incentive Programs Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): It was with some interest that I noticed the press release and the reports of information about incentive programs to keep at-risk students in school recently released by the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Sale) discuss the case of a student who could receive a $25 gift certificate for not wearing his headphones in class for two weeks.

First of all, when do we allow students to wear headphones in class, No. 1, and a reward for tuning into class was handed out as part of A Real Future, an incentivt� under the Healthy Child Manitoba Initiative, a funded program of $65,000 from this Government. I know there are some ex-teachers over then� who must be a little bit embarrassed by this. I am all for the devellopment of programs that will encourage students, be they at risk or academically gifted, and encourage them to participate in the learning process.

But, as a parent and a former trustee, have we so lowered our expectations that it has become acceptable to provide what some would call an incentive and others would simply call a bribe to encourage children to show up and be interested in their education, or do we want to teach them to "play the game"? Mr. Speaker, instead of providing gift certif icates, would it not have a greater impact on a larger number of students ilf we put this money into things such as textbooks, computers and other teaching aids? A gift certificate is fleeting. Provide some initiative. Margaret Rose Thompson Mr.

Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): Mr. Speaker, I am honoured to pay tribute to one of my constituents, Ms. Margaret Rose Thompson of Cranberry Portage, who just turned 104 on November 9. In 1925, Ms. Thompson and her sister, Edith came to Elbow Lake in northern Manitoba from ' California to visit her parents and her brothers, George, Hall, and Vaughn, who were surveying mining claims. Later the family settled in Cranberry Portage.

Rose Thompson still lives independently in her log cabin fronting on Lake Athapapuskow at Cranberry Portage. * (14:30) For over 60 years the Thompson family was involved in prospecting, developing mining properties and selling and optioning claims. Three of the seven major Thompson properties became mines. Ms. Thompson is the president of Thompson Mines Limited. This spirited first lady of Cranberry Portage is still active, does not consider herself retired, and works diligently on her memoirs. Ms. Thompson's family history is as inter esting as her own. Her father, W. T.

Thompson, began his surveying career in 1872 at the age of 19. He died on a surveying trip at age 84. He held two degrees from McGill University. As a Dominion Land surveyor, he surveyed immense portions of this country. He became a friend of Sitting Bull after that famous chief had moved his Sioux warriors and followers into the northern Prairies following the battle with Custer at the Little Big Hom. When W. T. Thompson came down with a life-threatening illness, his friend, Sitting Bull, sent his personal medicine man to cure him.

Her grandfather, Lieutenant-Colonel John Hall Thompson, was a Father of Confederation. He was elected to the House of Commons in 1867 and he received the Canadian Confederation Medal. Her great-grandfather, Major Joseph Thompson, fought with the Duke of Wellington and helped defeat Napoleon at the Battle of Waterloo in 1815. He moved from Europe to Brock township in Ontario in 1836. Ms. Thompson's great-great-grandfather was in the British navy and organized the British withdrawal from New York. Her great-great great-grandfather fought with the British at Germantown in the American Revolution.

I am sure all members in this House will join me in saluting this remarkable family and Ms. Rose Thompson herself, who is an astound ing living testimony to northern vitality, tenacity and determination. Adult Learning Centres-Funding Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, we have in the last few days in this House been unearthing a very tangled web of

November 21, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 247 problems in adult education. What is clear is that when the NDP came to power there was a markedly deficient system in place. What is also clear is that the evidence was there to know that it was deficient and that the minister should have acted, that the minister had at least as early as November 10, 1999, very strong recommen dations to change this as soon as possible.

Not only that, but the minister had in this report of Bill Bumstead's on the Morris-Macdonald School Division the following recommendation: It is absolutely critical that adult education policies and programs be developed and in place as the province of Manitoba enters the 21st century. Well, Manitoba entered the 21st century as the year 2000 came along, and in January 2000 the minister still had not got the policies in place. February 2000, they were still not in place. March, April, May, June, July, August, they were still not in place.

September, we have the formation of the African Immigrant Program and later became Classroom 56 many years into the tenure of the Minister of Education (Mr, Caldwell). This whole problem with the African Immigrant Program could have been prevented. Interestingly enough, the minister could have prevented his own misuse of numbers if he had changed the system. It is too bad that the Minister of Education did not, because the fact that you could use these numbers in this way led to this problem and this pickle that he is in. ORDERS OF THE DA Y THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (Fifth Day of Debate) Mr.

Speaker: To resume debate on the amend ment proposed by the honourable Leader of the Official Opposition (Mr. Murray), standing in the name of the honourable Minister of Agricul ture and Food, who has 31 minutes remaining. Hon. Rosano Wowchuk (Minister of Agri culture and Food): Mr. Speaker, I want to continue my comments, and I want to address a few issues that have been raised by other members. I listened carefully to the Member for Arthur-Virden (Mr.

Maguire) yesterday when he talked about the securities bill that we were bringing forward and the concerns that he had with respect to aerial and ground spraying equipment. I want to ensure the member that there has been consultation with the industry, and we will continue to consult with the industry. This is not intended to cause hardship for farmers but rather to ensure, when there is an issue of security, particularly with aerial spray ers, that it can be addressed.

Mr, Conrad Santos, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair The Member for Arthur-Virden also talked about our lack of commitment to rural Manitoba and our lack of support and our lack of understanding in rural Manitoba. He was also critical of us for expanding the Grow Bonds program. I find that really strange when a program that has been in place, has worked for some people although there have been failures with the program as well, but to have it expanded into another area to be perceived as diluting the program. I thought that the Opposition supported the Grow Bonds program.

It was a program that they introduced and now, when it has expanded into another area, they see this as a weakening of the program. I would say to the member that I think there is need to look at business in rural, northern and urban Manitoba as to how we can support them. One of the other areas I want to very much talk about are comments that were made by the Member for River East (Mrs. Mitchelson) about this Province's position on drainage.

I guess listening to the Member for River East speak, what he said about drainage just gives me a clear understanding that the member does not understand rural Manitoba very well. He does not understand drainage issues, and he does not understand what the previous government did with drainage. If you will remember, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the drainage budget and the staff in the then Natural Resources Department was reduced dramatically under the previous government. Now the member says, if we would have fixed up drainage, we would not have had to pay out money to farmers under the Excess Moisture Insurance program.

Well, I want to tell the

248 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 21, 2001 member you cannot fix up the neglect of 11 years in 2 years. We have taken steps. We have put additional money in, but I would think that the member opposite would support a program that would put money into farmers' hands when they are challenged with excess moisture. So I would ask the member to think about what he is saying. I would encourage him to listen more carefully and! listen to producers because the producers have been very, very supportive of the Excess Moisture Insurance program that our Government has put in place.

They have also been supportive of the other changes, and certainly thf�re are requests they have made through the satiety net programs that we have to address. One of the biggest issues under the safety net program is the fact that we have a program: that is CFIP right now. Fanners who are in most need are not able to get the money, and that was why it was at Manitoba's insistence before we signed the last safety net agreement that we would have a full review of the safety net programs. That is something that I am very committed to.

I would hope that I would have the support of members on the opposite side of the House as we move forward to try to negotiate a better safety net package, that they will recognize that farmers do need these kind of protections to protect them from downturns in the economy. Drainages have to be addressed, but there is much more that has to be addressed as well. Mr. Deputy Speaker, as well, I want to commend and recognize the work our Govern ment has done to increase investments in rural Manitoba. We will and are continuing to work with rural communities.

The announcement at the university of a nutraceutical research centre in Manitoba, although located in Manitoba, is a very important asset for fanners and for rural communities because this will be an opportunity to diversify into new commodities and hopefully add value to the products that we produce on our farms. * (14:40) Ethanol initiatives -[interjection] The mem ber talks about the reduction of the number of family farms.

I will bring him back the statistics of the number of farms that were lost under administration, and I would ask him to remem ber which federal administration it was that changed the policies that resulted in many farmers leaving rural Manitoba. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I think the steps we are taking to diversify the agriculture economy of this province are very important steps. I would hope that we would get a little bit of support from the Opposition in recognizing that there is an opportunity to diversify. There is an opportunity to add value to the products that we produce in rural Manitoba.

Members opposite, those who come from rural Manitoba, should recognize that. If you look at the statistics, Mr. Deputy Speaker, on how Manitoba farmers have fared in comparison to some of the other provinces, I am very proud of our farmers because they have taken steps to diversify, to add value to their product. They have moved out of grain production into other products that has put them on a little more stable ground than with some other producers. There is much more that we can do, and our department and our Government will continue to work to improve the quality of life in rural Manitoba.

One of the things we have done that the Opposition does not seem to want to recognize was the step that we equalized hydro rates across Manitoba. Now, some will say that this is not very important, but if you look at reducing hydro rates and bringing the opportunity for investment in rural Manitoba, it is one of the important steps. Rural Manitobans certainly do appreciate that, along with the other steps that we have taken, the step that we have taken to give property tax credits back to the people of Manitoba, the step that we have taken to reduce the portioning on farm property. All of those steps, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, are steps that I would hope that the Opposition would support on behalf of the people of rural Manitoba. The previous administration in fact raised the portioning, raised the level of portioning that fanners paid on their property. We took the step of reducing it and put $7 million into farmers' property. Now, the member

November 21, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 249 says the taxes went up. If assessments went up, the value went up. That is why we are address ing the portioning. But I want to address one issue that affects my constituency, and that is the Swan River Hospital. I am really proud of our Government that we have made a commitment that that hospital will be constructed. You know, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the previous government was involved when the hospital had to be demolished.

They said that there was going to be a new hospital built, but when we came into office, we found out that that hospital was not on the capital program. They had not put it on. That was their commitment. There was no commit ment by the previous government to put the construction of the Swan River Hospital on the capital program. Our Government saw that as a flaw in the plan of the previous government. Our Govern ment recognized that Swan River serves a very large area and that they could not continue to operate with a temporary facility. So we did put it on the capital program.

The regional health authority is out consulting with people over the next couple of weeks about the plan. The architect has been working on the plan, and construction will begin within the next year. So had it been the previous government, I am not sure how long the people of Swan River would have had to stay with the temporary facility because they had not kept the commit ment to put this facility on the capital project. I am also very pleased that our Government has worked to develop the Northern Develop ment Strategy.

This was launched this fall with new initiatives focussing on housing, health, transportation and the training needs of the North. I say this is very important, Mr. Deputy Speaker, because if you look at the track record of the previous government, the people who are on the opposite side of the House right now, the previous government had no understanding or commitment to the North. There was serious neglect in infrastructure, serious neglect in housing and serious neglect in transportation.

It is time that we took the steps, and I am very pleased to have been part of developing the Northern Development Strategy and look for ward to delivery of programs in that area. I look forward to further development of our rural development strategy and working with the people of rural Manitoba to ensure and to increase the opportunities for development and growth in rural Manitoba. Certainly, the steps that we have taken with respect to water and improving the quality of water and infrastructure in rural Manitoba are important steps and ones that rural Manitobans certainly- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr.

Deputy Speaker: Order, please. I cannot hear the speaker. Ms. Wowchuk: Thank you. I am pleased with the steps that we have taken on our Northern Development Strategy. I am pleased with the steps that we have taken in rural development and the steps that we are taking to improve the quality of life, steps such as, as I said, the nutraceutical centre, ethanol initiatives, the steps we have taken in health, investments in Brandon and Beausejour. The Brandon hospital was promised by the previous government for years and years and never did anything. The work is happening under this administration.

We have provided 80 new ambulances for across the province, over a million dollars in drainage, the $6.8 million in the prairie grains program. Certainly I am proud of what we have done for our producers in this province. Our producers are facing very difficult challenges with low commodity prices and to be able in this year to bring in $92 million in emergency assistance for our producers has a significant impact on some families. With respect to health care, members opposite somehow have forgotten about their record on health care and how the public lost trust in them on health care.

They are now trying to make this their issue. I can tell you that when we came into office Manitoba was the second highest per capita spender in health care despite aging diagnostic equipment and the dramatic reduced investment in training for health care professionals. Today we rank fourth in per capita spending behind Alberta, B.C. and Newfound land. We are prudently managing the system

250 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 21, 2001 through strategic capital investments and increasing training. Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, we are increasing the number of nurses that are going to be available to work in our health care system. We are increasing the number of doctors, and we are ensuring that doctors from rural Manitoba are trained and northern Manitoba are trained as well. So for the members opposite to try to make an issue of health care, I an1 very proud to stand on the record that we have put forward and what we have done in two years of government. There have been tremendous strides made.

There is no doubt that there are challenges in health care, but we have made great strides. I commend our Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) for the work that he has done in this area. * (14:50) Before closing, I also want to mention the issue that the Member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings) just talked about. He talked about that we should be spending money for textbooks. Well, if l remember correctly, under the previous government the school classrooms were spending more money on photocopying, trying to create material for students because the previous government did not have money for textbooks.

So I think that h(! should look at what his government did with regard to education funding. Under his administration the education funding was at zero and minus two and minus two. They were cutting money from education. We have made a commitment that we will fund education at the rate of the growth of the economy and have brought stability to education funding that people can predict and school boards can predict what theiir funding is going to be. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I also just briefly want to touch on amalgamation.

It is one that there has been a lot of discussion on in my constitu ency and one that I continue to work with. My constituency, the Duck Mountain School Division, is one that the previous government had indicated they should look at amalgamation because their assessment rate was so low. The previous government had put funding into that division to try to come to a solution for this division. That is one of the divisions that is being amalgamated and one that I am working very closely with. I look forward to further discussion with the people of my constituency to discuss this matter. So in closing, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I want to say that it is unfortunate that the Opposition did not recognize the merits of this Throne Speech and recognize the work that we are doing to improve the quality of life for Manitobans. They have chosen instead to bring forward an amendment that is really not worthy of comment in some cases, because some of the comments in that amendment are in fact not very accurate.

So I would, with those few comments, like to say that I am pleased with the work we have done and I am proud of our Government for the work they have done to support Manitobans, whether they live in rural Manitoba, whether they live in northern Manitoba or whether they live in urban centres. It is time that we had a government that recognizes the equality of people and that there have to be opportunities for all people in this province. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Member for Springfield. An Honourable Member: She is not finished. Mr. Deputy Speaker: I thought you were.

I am sorry. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am sorry if you misunderstood me, and I am sorry if the Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler) misunder stood me. I was concluding my comments, but I had not sat down. I would just take a few minutes to say that we are working to improve the quality of life for people wherever they live. The area I represent is rural Manitoba, so I just want to outline some of the initiatives that we have taken in rural Manitoba, for example, water management and drainage. My colleague here the Minister of Conser vation (Mr.

Lathlin) has taken great steps in the area of water management and drainage, an area that has been neglected under the Tory

November 21, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 251 administration. When you think that the Tories cut water resources initiatives by 43 percent, resulting in a dysfunctional system of drainage in this province. By committing over $80 million this year, we have doubled-the neglect that the previous government has taken, has caused in this system. Drin king water, Mr. Deputy Speaker, a very important issue for all Manitobans, safe dri nking water. What did the previous administration do? They cut the testing.

We instituted a 70% sub sidy for private drinking water testing to ensure that there is safe drinking water. I mentioned the area of crop insurance. I am proud of the work that we have done, but I want to continue to work with producers to look at how we can enhance that program, change the program to meet the needs of producers. One of the major issues is the livestock growth in this province. The Member for Arthur Virden (Mr. Maguire) made some comment about our holding up the licensing when in fact the provincial government really cannot control the federal government.

The member from Arthur-Virden raises a very important issue. That is the role that Fisheries and Oceans are playing with regard to streams and waterways and the delays that they are putting not only on livestock operations, but on drainage issues and on any kind of development. There are all of those issues. Certainly, he raises the point, but I would not want somebody to feel that this is because of a provincial issue that these are being slowed down. It is in fact a federal one.

I believe the member did talk about the Province being able to change the federal government's view on this, but in reality this is a federal issue, and our departments work closely with people. The federal government has their own role, and certainly we work closely with them. There has been a lot of discussion on livestock and the growth of the livestock industry. I had the opportunity to participate in a very interesting panel just recently called CBC's "counterSpin," where people talked about concerns about the industry, and particularly with the hog industry.

I want to let this House know that the livestock industry is very important in this province. I think that there is the opportunity for the intensive livestock operations or the large hog barns to expand. There is the opportunity for smaller operations. There is opportunity for the hoop bam industry, and natural or organic production. There is room for all of that. We always have to base the decision of expansion of industry based on science.

I want to give a lot of credit to the people who work, whether it is in the Department of Agriculture and Food, the Department of Con servation, the Department of Intergovernmental Affairs, as we work through the expansion of this industry, as we work with municipalities and encourage them to put their planning by-laws and their zoning in place so that the people who are involved in the expansion can do so with a firm set of rules knowing what municipalities want. I want to commend those people in the department.

I want to commend the people who work within the Department of Agriculture in a variety of areas, as some producers go through some difficult times, as some producers try to diversify into new commodities. They do a very good job at what they are doing. I am proud of the work that we are doing to ensure that this industry expands in a healthy and sustainable way. I heard the member from Emerson say: Why do you not say that you support the livestock industry? I have said many times, and I will continue to say, that I do support the expansion of the livestock industry in this province.

I have said it clearly at every meeting that I have gone to, so if the member wants to play with some words to imply that I do not support the industry, he is wrong. He is wrong when he says that about our Government, because we are working together with them. I wanted to get those few comments in on the agriculture industry and the people that are working with us.

I hope that the Opposition will recognize the value of this Throne Speech and vote down their amendment, vote with us on the Throne Speech that has been written and support us on the work we are doing in the best interest of Manitobans, no matter where they live in this province. Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): I would like to thank the Minister of Labour (Ms. Barrett) and

252 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 21, 200 I her colleagues for giving m�� that warm round of applause. I, too, would like to make some comments on the record in regard to the motion by the Leader of the Opposition, and to some respects on the Speech from the Throne. This is now the third address I hav1� been able to make. If the first two were a disa]ppointment, this one has got to be an even bigger disappointment. If one were to summarize what was heard on the 13th, I guess one would have to say that it was a regurgitation, it was a rehashing, no new ideas. There is really no plan in the Government.

There seems to be an awful lot of spin and these days, one would have to say, an awful lot of damage control. Alas, we will get to that a little later on. * (15:00) I do, however, want to take a bit of time, seeing as the Government t4Jrced closure on the motion that was brought forward initially on terrorism, and where this particular Legislature, on behalf of the people of Manitoba, stands. I felt that the motion was most appropriate. It was very disc ouraging that the Government came in and, in such a callous and cold way, shut it down. I suppose that had to do with ideological reasons within their own caucus.

They could not get enough support to back this kind of a motion. Clearly their federal counterparts do not support these kinds of things, and 1they as a provincial party certainly got in line with their federal counterparts, and I think that was most unfortunate. September 11, for myse lf, Mr. Deputy Speaker, symbolized an attac:k on my generation. Probably never before had we seen as many of my age group, give or take, being attacked. The attack came in a different fashion. We have probably never before seen a terrorist war. I believe it was

an act of war; it was

an act of aggression. We have never seen something like that before, and certainly I, who happened to be home that day, somebody called up and said, it looks like an airplane hit one: of the World Trade Center towers; you have to s1�e this. I turned it on and we watched for a whil1e and with absolute horror watched the second airplane delib erately crashing into the second tower and then the aftermath with the attack on the Pentagon, the fourth airplane into the field and then, of course, the carnage that then took place in New York. For me it was a defining moment.

It was very much a shaking situation to look at. I think when the story started to come out about the individuals who were affected, the magnitude was not known at that point in time, and the absolute carnage and the death is just sometimes beyond comprehe nsion, what we can actually fathom as human beings, that we would go out and purposely do something like that to each other. Commentaries were made that Pearl Harbour was an attack on a mil itary installation, that there were other attacks. It was done as a part of

an act of war, but this was such a cowardly act. It was such an unprovoked act. There was really no indication. People had no way of trying to protect themselves or to be aware that something might be coming. I think that is just the whole travesty of it. When we did have that very, very short debate on November 14, before the Government shut down the debate on this issue, because, frankly, they do not support the federal govern ment. They do not support the United States and what they are doing.

The United States, which has gone into Afghanistan and has freed women from bondage and slavery, has freed women from being beaten and shot and being terrorized by a minority called the Taliban, for those issues this Government had no time, had no desire to stand up for them and that is very shameful. It is shameful that they are following their federal counterparts instead of being what they tried to bill themselves as, a middle-of-the-road government. It has been a sham right from day one. It is most unfortunate, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

I would have liked to have seen a real serious debate on this issue, because the kinds of people who were attacked that day were individuals who would have graduated about the same time as I, a lot of them with young families. I would refer back to the Wednesday, November 14 Hansard, where I listed the 24 names of those Canadians who were killed in that unprovoked horrendous attack for which the Government does not want to stand up, which is so shameful.

November 21, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 253 Mr. Deputy Speaker, when you go through the list, you have individuals in their 20s, in their 30s, 40s, predominantly in that age group. There were some a little bit older with young families, with spouses expecting and children now sitting at home saying where is dad, where is my father, where is my mother, where is our son, where is our daughter? Probably one of the most moving incidents was when Mr. Gerhardt from Toronto, hearing that the attack had taken place, rushed to New York and knew in his head that it was over, that his son was not coming out.

But he stood there beside the carnage, and he said: I have come here for my son, and I am not leaving. I want my son. That is the kind of effect that has had. I find that it is most unfortunate that we did not proceed with the debate. It was something we should have done. We should have passed this motion. It should have gone on to the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister is not part of my political party. I would state that very clearly. But in this instance he is the leader of our country.

He is the leader of Armed Forces that are going over there and putting their lives on the line to free the men and women and the children who have been under this horrendous Taliban regime, and we can see that the Taliban regime is falling apart. To our soldiers and to those who are fighting on our behalf, I say, congratulations, we are standing 100 percent behind you, certainly on this side of the House. We did not play politics with it; the members opposite did. We will stand with the federal Liberals.

We will stand with the other parties in Parliament, and we will stand behind the men and women who are standing up and taking those individuals who perpetrated an unprovoked attack on us in North America and taking them to task. That is what it is about. I say to those individuals, and I said it during my speech on the 14th, for those who lost family, the 24 who passed away and their loved ones, on behalf of this MLA, on behalf of the residents of Springfi eld: No, we probably do not know what you feel right now at this moment, but our hearts certainly do go out to you.

Like I say, a lot of these my age have children my age. I know, when I am gone for a couple of days, my 18-month-old walks around, points at pictures and says papa, papa, meaning dad. What are these children doing now? Their dad is not coming home, or mom is not coming home, or that sister or brother or spouse, they are no longer coming home. I think that is the travesty of it.

Again, the motion that was put forward, it would have been nice if this House would have taken that motion, passed it unanimously, passed it on to the Prime Minister and the House of Commons and perhaps passed it on to the President of the United States who has done lots to take on these individuals, this minority that perpetrated that unprovoked attack on North America. I would like to move on and deal with some of the issues in regard to the Throne Speech. I would like to just briefly mention that I congratulate those individuals who are now part of the Manitoba Ethnocultural Advisory and Advocacy Council.

As a former chairperson of the Manitoba Intercultural Council, I am sure this is a very exciting time for them. They will be getting together and starting to find out who they all are and what the diff erent ideas are and where they want to go with it and all those kinds of things. I know that will be very exciting for them. I, however, have to say to the minister responsible, she knows, and her government knows, that this whole situation was very poorly handled. It was on the borderline. Well, it was undemocratic. There is no borderline involved there. It was undemocratic the way it was held.

The election process was most unfortunate. They should have allowed individuals to be able to correspond with each other, to be able to deal with each other. Still, I do not think any of that should take away from these individuals who are now on the council, and perhaps in years to come the minister and her Government can learn from what took place and make the process a lot better and make it so that it is not done with such acrimony and such divisiveness. * (15 :1 0) These organizations, I know, from a multicultural perspective-! was very involved at one time-are a lot of fun. They are very challenging.

Some of my first MIC meetings were just a real raucous, exciting affair, and there was a lot of excitement and a lot of

254 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 21, 2001 interest. You know, you le1ft after a weekend and you went: Wow! Now that is vibrant. You do not have to always agree on every constitutional amendment. You do not have to agree on every little detail of it, but the fact that you are getting together and you are having a good time, and I certainly wish this of this council. I do wish them all the best in the years to come. I listened, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, with great interest to the Throne Spee1ch, and I tried to pick out of it that there was a government that knew where it was going, that it had an idea where their direction was, where they were going to go with this, what was going to take place. As I mentioned already, it seemed to be a retread. It seems to be that it was just another spinning and spinning and spinning.

You go into the hallways after Question Period and the spinners, or those that deal with communications on the part of the Government, it used to be there were three in the hallway, then four, then five, and now the hallway is packed. There is almost no media, but the spinners from this particular Government line the hallway from one end to the other. I have not seen so many spinners, and that is exactly what this Throne Speech is, Mr. Deputy Spe:aker. It is spin. It is spin, spin, spin. There is no direction. There is nothing concrete. It seems to be a government that is floundering.

It seems to be a government that does not know a purpose. I take the Legislative Chamber back to the summer when certainly in my constituency we had an issue with hydro development in our community. You know, residents were not saying that acronym NIMB,, not in my backyard. What they were saying is they wanted to be able to deal with the minister, deal with Manitoba Hydro, and this is a government that if you do not meet you do not have to deal with them. The issue boiled and boiled. The Minister of Hydro certainly did not have the 1courage to come out and discuss the issue with the residents.

Surprisingly, I have heard from many former ministers who have said you go and you meet the public, and the fact that the minister comes out bears a lot of weight in that situation. Often people will be able to dialogue with the minister and some progress will be made, but instead this Government, in particular the Minister of Hydro, stuck his head in the sand and did nothing. It resorts right back to this speech that we had the other day. It is stick your head in the sand and basically go nowhere with the Government. I know for the citizens of Springfield, this was a very trying time.

This was a very difficult time for the R.M. of East St. Paul. There was a lot of work put in by the likes of Frank Miller, Mike Wasylin, Sandee Comrie, Gord Glesmann and Gerry. He was very involved. There was a large group of them, and they certainly worked hard trying to get the Government to at least look at some of the suggestions they had. They were very in tune to the community. They made sure that they had a mandate from the community. In fact, they raised some $10,000 to take on the Government.

The Minister of Hydro, who took on the same kind of a challenge in his own constituency when he still had his ideology close to his heart, when he still had some principles and some beliefs, which obviously he threw out, on this issue would not even meet with the residents. It was really quite shameful, but the residents of East St. Paul put on an admirable challenge. They took it on, and they did it with respect. They did it with dignity. They did a great job, and I was pleased to be working with them on this committee.

I would suggest to the Government they should get that committee together and write the Throne Speech for the Government. It would be a far better document than what we see here. At least there would be some plan of action. There would be at least some cohesion to it. This is a government that is scared of its own shadow, like the Minister of Hydro will not get out and meet the public, will not come and speak to individuals. He had meetings in his office, and they made sure they did not invite certain people who might actually have taken them more to task than they already were.

So I would say that, again, we are going to see this kind of drifting through the next year. We will probably see this kind of drifting. If the Minister of Hydro is any indication of what the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) will be in the

November 21, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 255 next coming Budget, I think we are going to be standing up here and we are going to be horrified at what this Government has wrought upon the province because their idea of consultation is listening with earplugs in. Their idea of consul tati on is flying above the province and waving from above, and down below it is spin. That is all they have in the hallway here, and that is what comes out of the offices. It is spin, spin, spin. That is very unfortunate.

That is very unfortunate for the citizens of this province, who, when they initially looked for a change of government were looking for a-1 had heard it often, oh, we are looking for a Gary Filmon government with a tweed jacket, you know, just a slight change . This is going to be middle of the road. Well, were people not shocked? Are they not just horrified at what this par ticular government has wrought on the province? I daresay that that proba bly will not happen a second time, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but in the meantime we have to deal with what is here.

I notice in the Throne Speech on page 7 there is this oxymoron that they have come up with on educa tion. Here is one thing in the speech. The other one is what they have done to school divisions, how they have crippled complete divisions, complete areas, with callous disregard for what they are doing to the students. It is just galling when you hear the Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) get up and talk about this is for the students, when that is exactly who he is att acking. It is the staff that he is attac king. You listen to the spin.

Strong community schools are at the centre of your Government's strategy for K to S4. The recently announced amalgamation initiative will reduce adminis trat ion costs while maintaining the level of provincial support for schools. It goes on and on and on. I will not even offend the poor people who have to transcribe this by reading it agai n. I would like to point out certain instances. One of the arguments for what they were doing was that it would save money. All of a sudden the NDP have gotten into this save money thing.

They have blown a billion dolla rs in two years, and all of a sudden that $10 million they feel they are going to save, now that is the thing they are going to raise up. Maybe they should have started saving on the $10 billion. That is where they should have started saving. Never mind. I would like to refer to an arti cle in The Winnipeg Sun of November 15 , 2001, page 5: "Combining divisions won't save money. NDPers used to think so, too. If Manitobans think school property taxes are going to fa ll because the Province has forced school boards to amalgamate, they better think agai n.

"The Education Minister ... announced last week that he's forcing school divisions to merge, reducing the number of boards to 37 from 54." His spin was they were going to take small ones, and they mention, oh, all of those with 400 students and all of those with 600 students, we are going to force them to amalgamate so that we cut down on administration. Let us go on that logic for a moment. We are going to force the small ones to amalgamate .

So they took the small school division of River East School Division--oh, sorry, that would be the second-largest school division in the province oh, and we are going to amalgamate that with Tra nscona. We are going to take other school divisions that are fa irly large, and we are going to amalgamate those. But what about St. James and Assiniboine? Were those amalgama ted? No. What about Seven Oaks ? What happened to Seven Oaks? Not amalgama ted.

The amalgama tion issue was pure and simply politics. * (15: 20) When the previous government was looking at reviewing the school board boundaries, they took an impartial person, set up a committee, went around the province, got the results. If they were going to implement it, it was going to be a non-partisan implementati on or they were not going to go through with it. Why did they not go through with it? Beca use it did not save money in the first place.

That is why they did not do it, but to do it under the guise of saving $10 million after you have blown a billi on and then playing nothing but politics with it in the end anyway, what they have basically done is hamstrung divisions. They do not care about the students. If they cared about the students, they would at least listen to some of the comments that are being made to them by teachers and by parents on behalf of the students. My phone is ringing off the hook.

256 ll.EGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 21, 2001 I asked the minister the other day, Mr. Deputy Speaker, in the JR..M. of Springfield never before has an R.M. been split up and forced into two different divisions. Worse yet, this Government on behalf of the people of Manitoba, so-called, took the industrial base off of the R.M. of Springfield and added it to the city and added the rest of it on to Agassiz. Agassiz has a very low tax base. They could have used that industrial base, but this is a typical anti-rural program that this parti cular Government is on. They want to cripple Springfield.

They want to cripple Agassiz. That was the point. That was the politics behind it. I am going to stand up and I am going to continue to fight, that if they are going to go along with this terrible idea, then the least they should do is put the whole R.M. of Springfield into another school division and not cut it off at its knees by taking away the industrial base and adding it on to someone else and putting the rest of the R.M. of Springfield somewhere else. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I spoke to Minister of Education (Mr.

Caldwell), and I said: Minister, the message that you are sending out is that within the Perimeter of the city of Winnipeg, it looks like eventually you are going to add all of that area on to the city of Winnipeg, the areas within Springfield, East St. Paul and the list goes on and on. What you are trying to do is within the Perimeter add that on to the city of Winnipeg. He corrected me. He said, well, actu ally, the way it is going to work is it is the floodway, that is the

section of Springfield; it is not even the Perimeter; it is the floodway. That

section is being added on to River East. He said, no, no, that is not the message we are try ing to get out there . This is just an anomaly. He ac tually did not even know what he was talking about in the House, and he had to go and get briefed on it. No, no, no, that was not the point; no, no, no, that is not what we are getting at. But that is actual ly the message that is being sent out. This is an attack on the Capital Region, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and there are some MLAs who represent parts and pieces of that, and do th ey care? Do any of the Government MLAs care? No, they do not care .

They will fa ce the electorate next time and pay the ultimate price for it. They will lose their seats because of it, because this is an attack on the Capital Region. It is bad for the R.M. of Springfield. It is bad for the Agassiz School Division that they have played their politics with, that they have hampered and that they are now messing around with even more. This Government is playing pure politics. That is all they have done. Do the chil dren matter? No. Do the teachers matter? Not at all.

I had a call from one of the Teachers' Association leadership, and he indicated to me today they are very concerned about what this Government is doing. The feeling is that the message is not getting up to the Education "Kremlin" and the Minister of Educa tion (Mr. Caldwel l). The message is not getting through that teachers are very concerned. No consultation took place. No discussion took place. This has been forced. What is just so galling about all of this is the Premier of Manitoba (Mr. Doer) went around the province and said it is un-Manitoban to force amalga mati on.

No, no, no, we are going to hug and kiss everybody and we are going to get them all to amalgamate that way. We are just going to love them altogether. Furthest from the truth . That was absolutely the furthest from the truth . Forced amalgama tion is where they have gone, and they have hurt a lot of school divisions, and unfortunately-! do not know how to say that. I will retract "unfortunately." The worst part of all this, the full effects of this will not be felt for a while because the real amalgamation will not actu ally take place until the next election. That is when the jobs will start being lost.

That is when the tax increases will start taking place. In the end, I believe what this Government is going to do is they are going to make sure that the true effects, that the truth of the politics they have played will not come into play until after the next election because they do not have the decency and they do not have the honesty to put all the fa cts up front and take that into an election. They will try to meander their way around it to make sure that they are not going to have to fa ce the consequences of the politics they have played with this issue, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

November 21, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOB A 257 I can tell you as one MLA and as this caucus we will make them account for what they have done. We will make them have to stand up and account for it. I will make it my continued duty, as I have done already, to point out to citizens around this province the politics that was played by this Government, that they did not put the chil dren first; they did not put the teachers first. They put their own little political interests in front of everybody else. That is what they did with amalgama tion, just like the Minister of Hydro (Mr.

Selinger) who did the same thing with the hydro lines going through East St. Paul. They will have to pay the ultima te price, and it will be their political careers for it, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I think that it is most beguiling when we see that basically everybody has pointed out to them in very caref ul wording, very clearly laid out to them, that this is not going to save money.

Explain to me how the Agassiz School Division that this Government has to basically, in the most underhanded way and the most frau dulent way, flit money over so that they can actually still survive and then crippling Springfield and putting them into Agassiz is somehow going to make the situation better. Explain that one. There is no explana tion. Why would you do that?

Why would you harm-I had a phone call today from someone-and there is a former teacher who sits there and bows his head every time hard issues come around and votes like a trained seal with this Government instead of standing up and having his voice heard, ML Deputy Speaker. The member from Rossmere should stand up for the students. He used to be in the classroom. He knows what is going on. The child guidance clinic for Transcona Springfield, where is it situated? In Transcona. So that means that that is going to be cut off.

A lot of the services that were provided to Springfield are now gone and those services are not provided in Agassiz. What happens to those students? What happens to those chil dren who need psychological care, who are going into different program s? They need those program s, ML Deputy Speaker. They are not in those programs because it is a way for the division to expend money. Those chil dren need those programs, and it is going to be cut off. And I ask, what about those 34 fam ilies that are aff ected in the part of Springfield that is now going to be cut off and left adrift?

What happens to those, those that are getti ng bused to Dugald and have been going there? Are they going to be grandfath ered? Not a word out of them. Who is going to fund that? Have they actu ally even thought this through? I mean, certai nly when the last government was trying this, and they went the right approa ch. They went to an impartial indi vidual, impartial committee. They tra velled the province. They listened to the concerns. After the Norrie report came out, I was on the school board of River East School Division, and the then-member from Springfield, the Member for River East (Mrs.

Mitchelson) and the then member from Rossmere, they sat down with the board because they were all government members, and they said: What does River East School Division think and what do you feel the effects would be? I will tell you, that was a pretty hot session and the Member for River East can vouch for what I am saying. There was no sugar-coating at that meeting. We told them what the costs would be and what the effects would be, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and they sat and they took notes and they listened and they did the right thing, as this Government should have done.

They should have at least have had the courage to say: This is what we would like to do. Now we want to hear back from the public. At least have that courage . But they have got about as much courage as the Minister of Hydro (Mr. Sel inger) with his hydro lines through East St. Paul. He did not even have the courtesy, he does not have the guts or the wherewithal, to go up and show up and speak to the people and at least listen to their concerns. What is wrong with that? What is wrong with going and hearing what people have to say? They would have laid it out.

I mean, yes, they would have explained what the problems are . But at least listen to the people. At least give them an opportunity to have their voice heard, and those three members that I mentioned, Mr. Deputy Speaker, of the previous government, they went back and they stood up for River East School Division, which

258 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA November 21, 2001 is saying a lot more than th1e current Member for Rossmere (Mr. Schel lenberg) and the Member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) and the Member for Concordia (Mr. Doer). They just let this happen and play their politics with it, not to say with some of the other ones .. *( 1 5: 30) The Member for Rossmere should know that the citizens of his community are going to remember this, because it was a bad idea. You are combining different cultures and the way things are done, and what they have done to Springfield is shameful.

It is wrong, and I will continue to encourage th1� minister, at least reverse, that all of Springfic!ld should be moved and not be splitting up communities the way that they are doing. This is such a divisive kind of a government, and they spin and spin with their Throne Speech, and it is all flowers and hon1�y. and they spin and mix and spin. When they come out it is nothing but vinegar, and that is the aftert aste . Second to the Hydro !issue, I have yet to have an issue that ever got as many phone calls, and the people are irate. They are concerned. They are worried.

It comes from different levels of government, from the R.M. to the trustees, to the parents, to the parent councils, to teachers. As I stand here, I cannot keep up with the phone calls that are coming into my office. I seem to be doing nothing else, and the story is the same. The NDP on the back bench sit and heckle and laugh about it.

They think this is all funny when parents are concerned about their chi ldren, are worried about where they are going to go for help when they need it with their special-needs children, where they are going to get some kind of assistance. and the back bench of the NDP thinks this is funny and laughs about it. Shame on them, Mr. Deputy Speaker , because it is not funny. Those concerns are real and they are true and they are heartf elt. I liste:n to them everyday. You know what? I encourage them to call up the minister's office, and what does the minister's office do? Shunts them oflf to somebody else.

Talk to the school board, talk to this person, talk to that person, because they do not want to hear it. That is so unfortunate for these parents. I had somebody call me today . They said: We are absolutely at wits' end of what we are supposed to do. What can we do about this? The Government will not listen. The Government is not even listening to their own members. They do not listen to the Member for Rossmere (Mr. Schelle nberg), not that he ever says anything, but they do not listen to him.

They have not listened to him on this issue, and they are all of a sudden going to start listening to the citizens that they have so maligned? The Minister of Hydro (Mr. Sel inger) did not listen when he had an issue. The citizens are-it is almost a resignation. I have encouraged them. I said, no, no, this is not over yet. We will work this through. We will make sure what works, and we will try to make it work the best we can. But I will tell you, it is not a funny issue.

I look at the so-called Throne Speech and you listen to this: The recently announced amalgamati on initiative will reduce administra tion costs while maintaining the level of provincial support, allowing more resources to be directed to the classroom. Really? Since when? What this is going to cause is nothing but heart ache. This is going to cause confusion. This is causing consternati on. There are people out there who are very concerned about what kinds of services their chil dren are going to get, and the back bench of the Government thinks this is all a joke. That is the shame behind all of this.

For them it is not a serious issue because, frankly, they play politics with it. They have made sure that marginal NDP seats, no changes were made there . They have ensured that various things were gerrymandered in a such a fa shion that Seven Oaks was not aff ected, other areas not aff ected. I tell you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, there are many areas around this province that when push comes to shove this is going to be a costly exercise, and there is a human fa ce to this.

I would like to hope that the back bench of the NDP, which is popping champagne bottles and celebrating and dancing on the graves of the school divisions, I hope that at least down deep somewhere they will have a little bit of heart for some of the concerns that parents have for their children, that teachers have for their jobs.

November 21, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 259 We have had several teachers calling and saying, what is going to happen to me? What happens if now this program is gone? It means I have to drive 80, 90 kilometres to get to a school because now the division boundaries have changed. School divisions are concerned that if teachers feel that there is not a chance for moving up in the division, they are going to move elsewhere. This is going to cripple a school division. It was not thought out, and, most importantly of all, this Government did not take its plan and then go through a process of consultation.

You know what? Nothing wrong with saying, okay, we made an error here. Fine. We listened to the public and we will go in this direction. There are many, many positive things that the present government could learn of f of the previous government, and that is when they realized that something was not working, was not in the best interests-from Premier Filmon on down, when he realized that it was not in the best interests of all Manitoba ns, he would pull it back and he would make sure that it was representative, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

I, unfortunately, have to say that I thought maybe this time one would have a Throne Speech that one could actu ally vote for, and this is not one of them. This is an unfortunate, very unfortunate time to have had such a weak document. Now was the time for the Govern ment to stand up, to show direction, to show where it was going, and it did none of that. I refer to the motion that was moved by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Murray) and, cert ainly, we have put a lot of different issues in there, Mr. Deputy Speaker, many of them in ag riculture.

I know the fa rmers in my com munity are ha ving just a brutal time. Never before have they had this kind of moisture. I know that is no fa ult of anybody. That is what happ ens. What they would like to do is at least have a chance to address the Government in a meaningful way, and all that they get is spin. I will conclude by saying that I will not be able to support the Throne Speech. I will be supporting the motion by the Leader of the Official Opposition, because this speech is just not good for Manitoba. Thank you very much. Mr. Harry Schellenberg (Rossmere): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I feel honoured to address the Throne Speech. Before I comment on the Throne Speech, I would like to welcome back all the members of the Legislature. I would also like to recognize the pages, and I hope that they have a learning experience as they serve in this Chamber. As a former Canadian history teacher, I know that this will be something you will remember all your lif e. The experience of having the opportunity to serve as a page in the Legislature is an experience that many of our youth would relish.

At River East Collegiate, where I taught for many years, we had a history club, and we would take tours to different places, historical places. One place we went to was the Legis lature . I can remember we took students to see the Member for River East (Mrs. Mitchelson). We visited her in her of fice, and they appreciated it very much. We went to see the then-Leader of the Liberal Party, Sharon Carstairs. We would go through this building, and the students always appre cia ted that, but the pages here have an extra experience, a very deep experience. I hope you enjoy it, and I wish you the very best.

It has been mentioned already, three of these students are from River East School Division, but one is from River East Collegiate. I take pride in that, because I taught there , and I appreciate River East Collegiate. I am a little biased when it comes to River East Colle giate or the River East School Division. I also welcome back the staff of the Legislative Assembly whose work is appreciated by all members. Here we have the Sergeant-at Arms who is very helpful, the Clerks whom we often forget, the Hansard staff right here. We appreciate your work.

I would also like to recognize the six new interns who are working with both caucuses in this Chamber, and I wish you well in the coming years. I am sure this will be a pra ctical experi ence after many years of aca demic studies. I have read th eir biogra phies, and I am impressed with your achievements in the college and university. Four have a BA degree, and two have

260 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 21, 200 I an MA degree. That speaks very well for our interns and speaks very Wt!ll for our youth to have this kind of an education at such a young age . It is appreciated. * (15: 40) I feel honoured to addn!ss the Speech from the Throne because it fulfils our election promises. Now, if you listened to the Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler), he would, of course, say very differently. We made promises two years ago, and we have kept those promises. We are continuing to fix health care.

We promised to give our young people hope and balance the Budget and live within our means. These are just a few of the things, promises that we made that we have kept. I would say we have kept our promises. As the MLA for Rossmere constituency, I believe this Government has presented a fa ir and responsible Speech from the Throne that balances realities of today with our visions for tomorrow. The Throne Speech reflects well for Manitobans as a whole. It is a Throne Speech that we can be proud of.

That is because it well demonstrates where our values and priorities lie, which is with our fa milies and communities. Actually, the Member for Springfield spoke a long time, and I was listening to what he said. An Honourable Member: He did not say anything. Mr. Schellenberg: Yes, someone says here he did not say very much. It was a lot of political spin. It was an election spe1;!ch, and he should save that for two years down the road. Before I get into detai ls of the Speech from the Throne, I would like to comment on September 11 . The world has certainly changed for us in North America.

We often hear of terrorism in other places or other continents. This act of terrorism has had a great effect on us. Fewer people are flying or going on holidays. It has had an impact on our economy and on our lives. September 11 has had far reaching effects on all of North America. This last Remembrance Day, which took place on November 11 , had a larger atte ndance than in past years. The sale of poppies increased this November II because the terrorist acts on September 11 have changed our society. People are thinking more about safety of ourselves and our community.

There is a real ap preciation for our fa llen heroes. There is a real appr eciation for our veterans who have served over this last century. That came out in our Remembrance Day across Canada. It is very much appre cia ted. After the terrorist attac ks two months ago, we live in a less certain world. The Speech from the Throne addresses this issue very well. The Government will be introducing security meas ures to address the fears of our citizens.

For instance, the recent security bill aims to amend several acts, which includes harsh punishment for using a phoney ID and improved security around everything from issuing birth certificates to the use of crop dusters and pesticides. Public health officials will be given the power to detain an individual suspected of having an illness which is contagious or life threa tening. Private security guards will have to upgrade their training before th ey receive a new licence. These are just a few of the security measures that will be before the Legislature for debate . Also, the Premier (Mr.

Doer) has appointed an all-pa rty comm ittee to study and make recom mendations for security. I app laud the Premier for showing leadership and having a vision on security, a job well done. I heard the Member for Springfield (Mr. Schul er) speak here. He never once mentioned any of these security measures we are about to pass, not once. I heard the Member for Fort Whyte (Mr. Loewen) speak to the Throne Speech. I would like to respond to a few of the things that he said. Basically all he said was cut taxes, you know, for my friends. Last spring he kept asking for tax money for his Kenaston Underpass.

This is a contradiction. If you cut ta xes, you do not have money for public infrastructu re. All the way through his speech he wanted to cut spending. At the same time, he and his side of the House want more money for fa rmers, health care, for bridges, for drainage, for personal care homes, for hospitals, for schools, and the list goes on. They want money

November 21, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 261 but, yet, at the same time they want to cut taxes. The two do not ag ree. The Member for Fort Whyte (Mr. Loewen) says we have no vision. Well, I want to point out that he and the people on their side of the House have a different vision. They do not have a human focus. I remember in the last election I was speaking to someone. They said they were going to vote for us. I am always interested what it is that makes people vote for you or not. I just prodded a bit, and they said: Your party has a human focus. I said: Where?

They pointed out health care, they pointed out education, and they appreciated that. Our vision is to assist working fa milies. We gave tax breaks to small businesses and fa milies and homeowners. This is not something the Member for Fort Whyte would advoca te . Very different. We have a vision. They have a vision, but we are very different, and I am proud that we are different. All the way through his speech, he hardly mentioned education or health. These are not that important to people on the other side of this Cham ber. Of course, the Member for Fort Whyte, I find it rather interesting, spoke about the arena.

I would like to say something about the True North complex, but before I say something about the True North complex, I would like to present a little historical perspective on arenas in Winnipeg. In the '95 election, which I was involved in, the Tories gave hope that Winnipeg would get a new arena. Film on even promised $10 million to a new arena. Of course, he would keep the Winnipeg Jets here, and we would have this professional NHL hockey team here. All these promises. I must point out the Member for Fort Whyte was front and centre of this movement to construct an arena, keep the Winnipeg Jets here.

Well, two days after the election, the deal fell through and the Jets were gone. The Winnipeg Sun headline said: People were duped. The people were very disappointed. They had all this hope built up, and it fell through after the election. The point is the Member for Fort Whyte and the people on that side could not put the puck in the net, and today they are criticizing us, you know. The end result is there is no arena, and we do not have the Winnipeg Jets here in Winnipeg.

That is the story of the Tory policies on arenas. * (15 :50) Also, I remember how the Tories were campaigning the year before the 19 99 provincial election. Their MLAs, their Cabinet ministers could be seen touring hospitals. Of course, they would have their cameras along because they are great at image politicking. They are great at that. They would be seen in the local paper inspecting the hospitals, but all they wanted was a few photo opportunities, a few headlines, just image politics. All they wanted was news hea dlines, which they got, but the people knew bett er. They did not fool the people.

We know what happened in the election. There was a total rejection of their health care policies, total rejection of their vision of health care . As the election was approac hing, they curtai led their hospital tours because the hallways were full and it was sort of becoming embarra ssing. My own experiences of Concordia is this today : You go through Concordia, it looks cleaned up. Very few if any people are ever in the hospital at Concordia Hospital. I am not saying it is perf ect, but it is much better. It looks like it is cleaned up. Actually, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I had the misfortune of going to the emergency ward before the '99 election, and you know what? There were about 35 people in the hallway. All my neighbours were there . I could not campaign out in the street, but you just go down the hallway, half of North Kildonan was there . Today you go there, it looks much better. Then there was the frozen-food fiasco. Well, I will not go into that . A real mess. Then there was the issue of firing a thousand nurses. No wonder nurses did not support them. Of course, there was the issue of the firing of a thousand nurses.

Of course, they did not support them in the last election. Also, they were at war with LPNs, with RNs, with doctors, with home care workers, you name it. They are tremendous at going at war with different groups. They had no vision in health care . We have done more in two years than they have done in ten years.

262 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA November 21, 2001 I remember the Home Care Coalition coming to Rossmere. They put up these signs. It looked like Christmas, signs all over. The Tories, their policy was to privatize, make a little money out of home care . Privatize it. That was their vision. But the Member for Fort Whyte (Mr. Loewen) did not men1tion health care in his address to the Speech from the Thro ne. The people have not forgotten the mess that they left. They have no credibility on health care in this province.

They changed ministers three times, and it was not the ministers who were necessarily doing a poor jolb. It was the vision, a policy of the party to privatize, to cut back. That was the issue. The Membf:r for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Praznik) was in there a short time. It was not a reflection on him. It was a reflection on their health care policies. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would like to turn to education for a minute, and there is a lot to say on that. Here again the members opposite often made tours to schools.

I n�member they would visit River East Collegiate, and you could see their Minister of Educa tion and some of their MLAs inspecting a computer room. What they wanted to tell the public was they car ed. I always found it very humorous when they visited schools. They did not do anyth ing for schools. I do not know why they would go there . But, anyway, they were in schools. Of course, they wanted a few photo opportunities for the local press and for their election literature . But parents, teachers and administrators knew better. There was no leadership in education.

They did not work with teachers and parents to better educa tion. They would attack and blame the teachers, blame the educa tors. It was always someone else. Last election, the people dealt with it. Mr. Deputy Speaker, they were at war with educat ors. Many people across this Chamber know they made a mistake . It will take a long time for people to forget 1the relationship they had with educators in the province. We have a very different vision than members opposite. I just want to correct the record on this.

Adult educat ion now is a topic in this Chamber and in the m:ws, but there was a mess left in adult education from the previous administration. We had to sort of clean up frozen food. We had to clean up the hallway medicine. Now we have the job of cleaning up adult education. I am sure our minister and our Government will do that. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would like to point out some of our achievements in health. More nurses are being graduated than at any other time and twice as many as five years ago. Tories fired a thousand nurses. Many are still in Texas, Cal ifornia, Arizona.

Some just changed profession and they got out of nursing. They had enough, left it. I remember speaking to a friend of mine, and the person said: We are going to visit our daughter in the United Sta tes. I said: Texas? She said yes. I said: Is she a nurse? Yes. That is where our Canadian nurses went. Many went south. We have opened 15 additional spaces in medica l school. Mr. Deputy Speaker, $73 million has been dedicated to new and replace ment equipment like CT scanners. We have done the amalgamation of two levels of bureaucracy and health.

The Canadian Institute for Health Infor mation has recognized our plan for ending hallway medicine as the best in the country. Many provinces are using our plan to reduce hallway medicine. I have already said this. When I go to the Concordia Hospital today, the halls are basically empty . I have congratulated the staff and the CEO for solving this problem. We have added over 400 trai ning spots in health care for professionals such as doctors, nurses, health care aides, ultrasound technicians, lab, X-ray technicians.

Health capital spending is proceeding with ma jor projec ts at the hospitals in Bea usejour, Thom pson, Winnipeg, and just recently we announced a $58-mill ion project with the Brandon hospital, tremendous. When have you ever heard that before? We are also establishing a fam ily doctor register to make it easier to find a fam ily doctor. Our Government bought 80 new ambulan ces. These are just some of the achievements of our

November 21, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 263 Government in the last two years. I could go on with that list. That is just some of the things, some of our achievements, some of our successes in health care. Mr. Deputy Speaker, we have a vision in health care and our Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) has done an excel lent job. He has done more in two years than the Opposition in ten. I would just like to turn to educa tion for a minute. As a long-time educator, I would like to list a few of our achievements in educa tion.

University and col lege tuition for educa tion was reduced by 10 percent, increased tax credits for students. We introduced bursaries. As a result, there has been a 12 % increase over the past two years. More of our students are going to university and colleg es, because we promised in the election that we would give them hope. The atte ndance proves that we did give them hope. After years of neglect, we invested $50 million at the University of Manitoba to be matched by the university's own funding.

We have invested $14 million at the University of Winnipeg, $5 million to Brandon University, $30 million for the downtown campus at Red River Community College. We have given our youth hope. Mr. Deputy Speaker, this shows the leadership and vision we have for our universities, our colleges. * (16 :00) In the public schools, we have rebuilt trust with educators and groups. The Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) has visited over 15 0 schools over the past two years and reversed the Tory pra ctice of fighting with educators.

Also, we have invested $47.5 million more in our schools in the past two years, and the Tories' increase was $15 mill ion from 19 95 to '99, and, of course, cuts in the early '

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-3-7
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 3rd hansardpdf 7.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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