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May 28, 1992

35th Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

The House met at 1000.

Prayers.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

PRIVATE MEMBERS' PUBLIC BUSINESS

REPRESENTATION AMENDMENT ACT, 1992 / LOI DE 1992 MODIFIANT LA

LOI SUR LA REPRÉSENTATION ÉLECTORALE

Mr Murdoch (Grey) moved second reading of Bill 9,

An Act to amend the Representation Act / Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la représentation électorale.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Gilles E. Morin): Mr Grey moves second reading of Bill 9,

An Act to amend the Representation Act. Pursuant to standing order 94(c)(i), the honourable member has 10 minutes for his presentation. The member for Grey.

Mr Bill Murdoch (Grey): Mr Speaker, maybe we should start off with my name being Mr Murdoch and not Mr Grey. We might want to get the record straight on that.

The Deputy Speaker: I apologize profusely.

Mr Murdoch: That's fine. It changes from time to time.

Mr Allan K. McLean (Simcoe East): You wanted a name change.

Mr Murdoch: Yes.

I am pleased to be able to rise today and explain to this House why I wish to debate my bill,

An Act to amend the Representation Act, which would change the name of my riding from Grey to Grey-Owen Sound.

This legislation is very important to me and to my community. As most members know, I am very proud of my corner of Ontario and I think the name of my riding should accurately reflect its makeup. The name "Grey" implies the county of Grey, which is largely rural and is made of the townships of Artemesia, Bentinck, Collingwood, Derby, Egremont, Euphrasia, Glenelg, Holland, Keppel, Normandy, Osprey, Proton, St Vincent, Sarawak, Sullivan and my home, Sydenham. As well, we are proud to have the rural towns of Durham, Hanover, Meaford and Thornbury and the villages of Chatsworth, Dundalk, Flesherton, Markdale, Neustadt and Shallow Lake.

But, as any member who has visited Grey will know, the county is mostly wide-open spaces. The towns and villages I have mentioned are bustling and full of life but they are not large. They reflect all the warmth and friendliness and honest, straightforward values and thinking for which rural Ontario is prized. But I have an urban component to my riding too, which is not reflected in the name. I would like to see that corrected through this bill.

The city of Owen Sound, which is named for the body of water it sits on, has more than 20,000 residents. It is a true city which embodies everything that is good in urban life. We have a small manufacturing base. We have the Grey Bruce Regional Health Centre, which serves the counties of Grey and Bruce. We have the Tom Thomson Memorial Gallery, which we're proud of. We have the County of Grey Owen Sound Museum. We have the Owen Sound Little Theatre. We also have the Owen Sound Billy Bishop regional airport, which has just been built in the last year.

We have the Grey-Bruce Arts Council, the Georgian Bay Folk Society and many Canadian and Ontario championship sports teams, as well as the World Highland Dance Troupe and School. As you can see, it is a city in itself.

My riding is very diverse. We have the best of both worlds, rural and urban. The rural area relies on agriculture which supports dairy, beef, pork and sheep farmers, as well as a healthy apple industry which produces some of the finest fruit in Ontario. We also have a four-season tourist area that features great skiing, beautiful walking trails, clean water and beaches and good fishing.

One of the loveliest areas in the province is in my riding -- the Niagara Escarpment. I feel very strongly we should preserve its natural beauty for future generations. But we also have an urban centre with all the cultural, entertainment and sporting attractions that are part and parcel of city life and I feel this very important area in my riding should be equally recognized.

My riding wants this change. I have here a resolution passed by the city of Owen Sound and a letter from the county of Grey which supports it. The motion city council adopted reads as follows:

"Whereas the city of Owen Sound is predominantly a regional centre within the county of Grey and houses the county of Grey administrative offices; and

"Whereas the city of Owen Sound feels the name of the city should be added to the name of the provincial riding;

"Now therefore be it hereby resolved that the council of the corporation of the city of Owen Sound respectfully requests Bill Murdoch, MPP, Grey riding, to introduce a private member's bill to have the name of the Grey riding changed to 'Grey-Owen Sound' riding."

The name "Grey-Owen Sound" is already used by many organizations in the riding. Looking through my local phone book, one can find the name several times. We have the Grey-Owen Sound Museum, Grey-Owen Sound Social and Family Services, the Bruce-Grey-Owen Sound Health Unit and the Grey-Owen Sound Centre Nursery, to name a few. So people are already familiar with this name and find it a more accurate way to identify themselves.

Members will know there is a precedent for changing the name of a riding at a time other than during redistribution. Most recently, my colleague Noble Villeneuve, the member for Stormont-Dundas-Glengarry and East Grenville, had similar legislation passed in the last session. This change was important to him and his constituents. As was pointed out at that time in this House, every member recognizes the significance of his or her own electoral district and that the name should reflect the geographical area of the riding he or she represents. I want no more for Grey and Owen Sound.

I eagerly await the comments of my colleagues from the other two parties and I hope they will be able to support me in this endeavour.

As I pointed out, the county of Grey and the city of Owen Sound are two different municipalities. The city of Owen Sound is a separate city and is not joined with Grey other than in the services they provide for each other. This has been going on for many years. Both Grey and Owen Sound have shared different facilities. The people from Owen Sound use the facilities out in the country and the people in the country go into Owen Sound and use its facilities, yet they remain two different municipalities. This is one of the main reasons I feel we should recognize the city of Owen Sound in the riding change.

I've talked to many people in my riding, those in Hanover and Meaford, who have a small urban centre but are still part of Grey county, and they find no fault with this. They think this would be a good idea.

When people want to come to our area, be it for tourism or to move an industry there, we'd like them to realize that when you say you're from Grey-Owen Sound, you have an urban setting along with a rural setting and you can get the best of both worlds.

Also, as I pointed out, we are very fortunate to have a four-season tourist area. Again, as I said, we have the best skiing in Ontario and some of the cleanest beaches and water you can find anywhere. The fishing derby we have attracts many tourists to our area. They'll go fishing out in the rural part of my riding, but a lot of them will stay and enjoy the entertainment and things they can find in the city at night and the fine restaurants and places where they can eat.

The people in my riding have asked for this to be changed. I think it's a good idea and I hope the rest of the people in this House will agree with me and, when the time comes, vote for it. I will wrap up at a later date.

Mr Paul Klopp (Huron): I rise today to give support to the member for Grey in his request to change his riding from Grey to Grey-Owen Sound. The riding of Huron was named because, as many know, it's along the shore of Lake Huron. As the member pointed out, he has two different, distinct areas. He has a large urban centre and a mixture of smaller towns and hamlets. In the riding of Huron we have 16 townships. In fact, one of our townships is named Grey, I think in recognition of the history, and probably they felt proud to name a township that way.

But we also have towns, Exeter, Seaforth, Hensall, Goderich, Wingham and Clinton, and many police villages and small hamlets. However, we have no big cities. If I can say so, I think we have the perfect mixture of all worlds.

As the member for Grey pointed out in his remarks, many times we do not have a choice of constituency lines. I think of the riding of Huron, which over my short time in this world has been Huron-Bruce and Huron-Middlesex. Then it reverted back to the riding now of Huron, which is just the straight county, which I, as a long-time resident of Huron county, find very easy to take. I believe we have no need to change our name.

However, we have to recognize that places like Grey and Owen Sound need to be recognized. As the council of Owen Sound has pointed out, it's important for its economic wellbeing and just the pride it needs to have. I respect that.

I also would like to say, if I may say it in a light way, that when we were up there playing hockey I was thinking that the member maybe wanted to change it to the Murdoch riding. But he is a more honourable member and realizes he is only the servant. He will have his name written somewhere else, I'm sure. It won't be in any hockey logs, I can assure you of that.

Anyway, I know the member is proud of his riding. For him to go and promote the idea that he would like it changed to Grey-Owen Sound, he does that with respect. As he pointed out, the councils, towns and villages all have used the name Grey-Owen Sound from time to time, so it seems like only a logical step. For that I firmly believe he is doing the right thing. From what I've met of the honourable member he is one who stands up for his riding, although sometimes we disagree. But then when it comes to our own individual ridings we fight for them, because that's our duty here. The mix comes out in policy, in whatever we do.

I have had the privilege of being in the member's riding a number of times. I mentioned a minute ago that we were up playing hockey this winter. The scenery in his riding is truly spectacular. I can only compare it somewhat to the foothills of the Beaver Valley area, for example. I have a bit of a comparison when I'm in Alberta, for example, at the foothills. You can go from my riding two and a half hours later and go to his and ski. We are very fortunate in our neck of the woods to be able to go skiing, come to Lake Huron's shores, beautiful sandy beaches in the summer and the warm waters of Lake Huron.

As a farmer, I've told a lot of people: "We don't need to have a cottage. We're already in heaven."

In short, I think it's a good motion. The Grey and Owen Sound populations respect it. As the member pointed out, it's been in the telephone book under many things. My colleague from the riding of Lambton has mentioned that many times they use Sarnia-Lambton as names to coincide to give recognition. I don't believe they're changing their name, because Sarnia, as you know, has its own riding, so there's no need to change constituency lines in our books here. But lines are naturally drawn, and to have it recognized in this House I think is an honour for that area and an honour that this member is doing this at this time. I fully support it and wish him luck.

Mr Murray J. Elston (Bruce): I just came back from Owen Sound. Having examined the way of the world in the great city to the north and partly to the south of my riding -- as you know, the riding of Bruce -- do I have to name all the towns and everything in Bruce as the member for Huron named his and the member for Grey named his?

We can go through that, but may I say it's my pleasure to rise today. Although the issue in front of us is quite similar in many ways to that of our colleague the member for S-D-G & East Grenville, a gentlemen to whose bill I also spoke, the change of name is an interesting request because, as I said during the debate with respect to that gentleman's bill, it means there is a movement on from what has taken place in the past.

Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry, as it was then known under the care of the deceased Osie Villeneuve, was a well-known name in the annals of this particular place. When people spoke about eastern Ontario's agricultural centres it was not uncommon to think of Osie Villeneuve in his role as dean, as he was when I came to this place, of this Legislature. His often brief but incisive contributions to our debates were well known, and you could go to the heading under the member for Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry for some interesting words.

The same occurs to me today as we rise to talk about the change of name of this particular riding from Grey to Grey-Owen Sound. For instance, I recall with some very happy recollections the time when the member for Grey-Bruce, the honourable -- honourable? he certainly was honourable -- Eddie Sargent, was the member. He happened to be a Liberal, but he was there representing Grey-Bruce and he represented many of the towns and places the member currently from Grey has enumerated. Mr Sargent also represented parts of the riding of Bruce, particularly the -- I don't know how you'd describe it.

I represented sort of a southern triangular portion of Bruce in the days of Huron-Bruce and Eddie represented the rest of the county. He represented Grey county as well except Owen Sound and part of Grey county.

The interesting thing about Mr Sargent was that, while he lived in Owen Sound, it didn't matter to Eddie what the name of his riding was. It didn't matter to the people in the riding of Grey-Bruce what the name of their riding was because they knew they were well taken care of by Eddie Sargent, a man with whom all of us have associated good times, good sense and, I might say, probably the most interesting practical joke ever played on a Speaker in this House. Everybody will have recalled the story of the helicopter, but for those who can't remember it is reported well in Hansard and can be dug out for your edification.

There happens to have been as well a member from Grey riding, Bob McKessock, here in 1981 when I arrived. Mr McKessock had replaced a very powerful and diligent local member for Grey, the honourable Eric Winkler, in 1975. The interesting thing about Mr McKessock and Mr Winkler was that it did not matter much to them what the name of their riding was and it did not matter much to them what the names of their constituents were: They represented them all. They represented them whether they came from Hanover, Durham or any place within the bounds of that riding.

The name was not important, but the area was extremely important, and the diligence with which they pursued their mandate of representing the individual constituent, some of whom didn't vote for each of those members just named, was an amazing record for those of us who have followed them.

We haven't forgotten about Ron Lipsett, who was the previous member from the Grey riding. Mr Lipsett defeated the then up-and-coming Bill Murdoch in 1987 and was himself then defeated by the current member for Grey in 1990. The interesting thing about Mr Lipsett was that he was not concerned with the name of the constituency, but he was concerned with the problems of his constituents on a daily basis and worked very hard and diligently in respect of meeting those needs.

The member for Grey, as it is now known, and I'm not sure exactly what the outcome of the debate or vote will be this morning, has taken some examples and some lead from those people who have been there. It has never mattered to a member of this Legislative Assembly what we called ourselves -- heaven knows we get called enough things by other people -- or what the riding names are called. Our true test of ability and of relevance is still the way in which we meet the needs of our constituents.

That's a long

preamble, Mr Speaker, to let you know that I am not so concerned as to what we call our constituencies. I know it's important that Owen Sound be recognized. Owen Sound is a great place. I know the mayor, an interesting fellow and, some might say, a kindred spirit. I would say there will be days when we will share some common debate times with him. But I likewise am a person who admires the abilities that are shown by the people of Hanover, the people of Markdale, of Thornbury, of all over the great Grey riding, so for me, if the member for Grey wishes to change the historic name of the riding of Grey to Grey-Owen Sound, that is fine by me.

But I wish to remind us all that here are some of the issues that affect the people of Grey, as they affect the people of Bruce and, I dare say, even the people of Huron, some of whom I represented at one time in this House. Where are our transportation links? Heaven knows Eddie Sargent was pressing, for long days, to have a four-lane highway come up into our part of the country.

Anybody who, as I have just done, has tried to go from Toronto to any part of Bruce or some parts of Grey in less than three hours, leaving at 3:30 in the afternoon, will know it is impossible, whether or not you end up having all the cooperation that is required of the police services throughout this province. There is no direct route into our part of the province.

So our need, of people who come from Huron, Bruce, Grey and, I might even say, from Simcoe -- and even to a certain extent of the member for Wellington, because his riding comes right next to ours -- is access to the markets to make it reasonable for our people to supply at a reasonable price the materials which we produce. We need a sense that we have not been forgotten. There are days when we do believe we have been forgotten in our part of the country, because all of the things that determine the services to be provided in our areas are stacked against rural Ontario.

None of the statistics will be able to be meted out that will allow our roads to receive upgrading, because the days when they measure the traffic on our roads are the days other than the busiest times of the year, which are in the spring, when we have all the haulage for our growing and very vital agricultural sector; for our tourism sector -- they don't measure many of those numbers on the weekends.

We don't get the extra that is required to maintain the open yards of the Ministry of Transportation in Tobermory, Elsinore and Walkerton when it comes to having enough work to be done on the roads to clear them in the winter. As you know, the Minister of Transportation just shut down those three Ministry of Transportation yards.

We don't have enough things happening in our area for the federal government -- excuse me, Canada Post -- to think we should have open post offices any more. We don't have enough in our part of southwestern Ontario to allow the railroads to continue to run. It is not just the provincial government that refuses or fails to see all the needs we have. The provincial government, the federal government and organizations that are crown corporations, which are in my view just extensions of both those levels of government, are not providing us with the same level of service.

So members like Mr Lipsett, Mr Sargent and Mr McKessock spent long days representing those types of issues to the people. I might say as well that Eric Winkler, in his day here, a very powerful man and a very compassionate man, a man I know fairly well and whose health, I hope, is improving -- Eric, if you're watching the debate, I hope you're feeling better today -- spent a lot of time trying to elevate the status of southwestern Ontario, the Grey, Bruce and Huron areas -- particularly Grey, I might add -- in the eyes of the provincial authorities so that we could receive some benefits that would allow us to progress along with the rest of the province.

The members I mentioned -- Lipsett, Sargent and McKessock -- spent their time pursuing that. Those needs are still there. Whatever we call the riding, Grey or Grey-Owen Sound, the member will have to know he must pursue -- or she, because of course the great tradition of the Grey riding has been the offering to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario of our first female member. Who can forget Agnes Macphail, another great tradition, a tradition my friends opposite would, I'm sure, have more familiarity with than some of us Liberals and Tories?

I can tell you, though, that you probably don't know all that much more about her, because we have a tremendous pride in the ground-breaking traditions that have been established in the great ridings of our part of the country.

What have I heard today, and what is the member going to do, I must ask, about the current situation with development in Grey county? We have heard for a long time about -- in fact, Mr Winkler heard much about it; Mr McKessock benefited from it in some ways -- the Niagara Escarpment Commission. While we speak about changing the name, what, my friends, are we to hear of the representations of the member for Grey-Owen Sound, or Grey, with respect to this important issue?

What about the issues this man must pursue with respect to the Sewell commission? For those of us in rural Ontario, the issue first raised by Mr Sewell, where he would not allow septic systems to be used for disposition of sewage, means a virtual halt to any development, any opportunity for us as a rural part of the country to continue to grow. If you don't grow, and if you don't get transfers from the government at a municipal level, then you are virtually done. I know the member for Grey will be rising to talk about the issues as opposed to just naming the towns, but those are two more issues that are important.

What about the change this new government of ours has brought forward with respect to tree cutting? In Bruce county we've had tree-cutting bylaws all over for a long time that regulate the cutting of trees, but now it is going to be required, not only in Bruce but also in Grey and Huron and every place else, that someone from the Ministry of Natural Resources approve every tree to be cut by those people who have been in the business of husbanding their forest resources.

For instance, the farm I grew up on, on the 2nd Concession of Morris, indeed in the riding of Huron, has had on it for a number of years an extended woodlot which has provided for our family, since we first settled there in the 1850s, the produce to build barns, outbuildings and indeed houses. In fact, as a young boy I was there cutting trees with my father and helping to insert the stringers in the bents which had deteriorated, but we did it by choosing the correct trees and husbanding that forestry resource.

Now we're being told that the farm people of this great province cannot do that on their own, that they must have somebody who gives them a checkmark to do it. I regret that this is the case.

What is going to happen with respect to the non-commercial signs along the highways in the great riding of Grey or Grey-Owen Sound? What is this member going to say about it? I said yesterday that I think it is unfortunate the New Democrats are closing down the opportunity of all of our citizens to freely speak about their religious preference by signage of their thoughts about great public policy events.

I close now only by saying that I am pleased to support the member, because he has asked for support to change this name; I have no trouble. But the proof, the real test, of whether or not there is relevance in this place will be the representation of the citizens' needs in this Legislative Assembly.

Mr McLean: I welcome this opportunity to express my support for private member's Bill 9,

An Act to amend the Representation Act, which was introduced by my colleague the member for Grey, soon to be the member for Grey-Owen Sound.

Mr Speaker, you are no doubt aware that Owen Sound city council and Grey county council both adopted resolutions, of which we have copies here, requesting that Bill Murdoch, MPP, Grey, introduce a private member's bill aimed at changing the name of the riding of Grey to the riding of Grey-Owen Sound. My colleague introduced a private member's bill on April 14, 1992, and we are debating it at second reading here today.

The proposed name change is not a spur-of-the-moment decision by the member for Grey. In the resolutions, both councils note that Owen Sound is predominantly a regional centre within the county of Grey and the city houses the county of Grey administrative offices.

The constituents of both Owen Sound and Grey county would be proud to have the riding named after the two municipalities. That area of the province of Ontario has a long and glorious history, and I'd to just relate some of that history.

At the northern terminus of the Garafraxa Road on the shores of Owen Sound, a town plot was laid out in 1840 to encourage settlement in that part of the county, originally called Sydenham. I believe the present member for Grey was the reeve of that municipality and also the warden of the country of Grey. The settlement took the name of its adjacent body of water in 1857 when, with 2,000 residents, it was incorporated as the town of Owen Sound. That was in 1857, with a population of 2,000.

Owen Sound gave us two especially well-known Canadians.

Courage and marksmanship made Owen Sound native William Avery Bishop one of the leading fighter pilots of the First World War. Billy Bishop was officially credited with the destruction of 72 enemy aircraft and was awarded several military decorations for his actions.

For his courageous initiative in the fighting at Passchendaele in the First World War, Thomas William Holmes was awarded the Victoria Cross. After the war he returned to his home town of Owen Sound and later worked for the Toronto Harbour Commission.

Yes, Owen Sound has played a major role in the history of Ontario. Following the signing of the Saugeen Treaty, the government rebuilt a former Indian village adjacent to the settlement at Owen Sound for a band of Ojibwa led by Chief Neywash. In 1857 the residents ceded their land and moved to the reserve at Cape Croker.

Running from Weston, on the outskirts of Toronto, to Owen Sound by 1873, the Toronto, Grey and Bruce Railway Line facilitated commerce between the agricultural and forest resources of Grey and Bruce counties and the Toronto markets. The company was absorbed by the CPR in 1884.

The county of Grey has much of which to be proud.

The distillation of bituminous shale to obtain crude oil was an early attempt to meet the growing demand for oil. William Pollard's shale oil works at Craigleith, which is just outside of Collingwood, the only such enterprise in Ontario, operated for four years until the discovery of more accessible oil at Petrolia and Oil Springs, which rendered the cumbersome shale process obsolete. Those last two places are, I believe, down near Lambton county.

Heroic action by a local rescue party in small fishing boats during a violent storm saved the lives of many of the people on board the Mary Ward after the steamship had grounded on a reef near the current site of Craigleith Provincial Park, which is in Grey county. It's also just north of Collingwood.

The Durham Road, the Garafraxa Road, the Old Mail Road and the Toronto-Sydenham Road were all constructed during the mid-1800s. These roads provided access and served to open up Grey county to early colonization.

Grey county gave Canada a number of famous people. The franchise, improved health care and fairer property rights for women, temperance and better conditions for factory workers were just some of the causes to which the indomitable Nellie McClung, who was born near Chatsworth in 1873, devoted her life.

A natural athlete with exceptional muscle and coordination, Noah Brusso was born near Hanover in Grey county in 1881. He became a professional boxer under the ring name of Tommy Burns. In 1906 he became the first Canadian to win the heavyweight championship of the world.

While I'm talking about famous people in this country who have come from Grey county and area, former Prime Minister of Canada John Diefenbaker is also among those famous people.

We cannot forget the first woman elected to the Canadian Parliament, Agnes Campbell MacPhail, who was born near Hopeville and championed many causes such as prison reform, improved health care and rural cooperative movements during her years in federal and provincial politics.

One of Canada's best-known painters, Tom Thomson, grew up in Leith and worked as a commercial artist before he started to paint in oils. His canvases of the forests of northern Ontario reveal a distinctive style of painting and were a strong influence on the Group of Seven.

A native of Meaford, the Right Honourable Sir Lyman Poore Duff, was one of Canada's most eminent jurists, an expert in constitutional law, particularly as applied to provincial and federal rights. Duff held many appointments during his career, including Chief Justice of Canada.

The moving force behind the establishment of the Anti-Slavery Society of Canada, Major Charles Stuart, who settled near Thornbury in Grey county in 1851, devoted much of his life to humanitarian causes, strongly influencing the anti-slavery movement in England and the United States.

The people of Owen Sound and Grey have much to be proud of. I have no problem in supporting my colleague's bill. That whole part of Ontario -- the Blue Mountains, Devils Glen, the scenic caves -- when we look at our tourism industry, we have to look at that part of this province with great admiration for the people who visit there and fish the shores of Georgian Bay. Then we have to look at our apple industry. A lot of apples are grown in the Thornbury and Meaford areas. The apple cider we use comes from that area.

Some day, one of the great historical parts of this province will be the Niagara Escarpment. Many countries would love to have an area that has so much heritage and so much to add to our sports and fitness and conservation people who tour that area, so that they could have the opportunity to go and enjoy and hike right across this province through the Niagara Escarpment.

I remember debating in this Legislature when we had the redistribution in the ridings back in about 1985, I believe it was, with regard to Simcoe East, the recommendation from the election commission that it should be named Simcoe North. We had quite a debate in this Legislature to have that name kept as Simcoe East, thereby identifying that part of the county of Simcoe that is on the easterly border of Simcoe county.

The member for Grey brings before us today a bill that both of his municipalities have sent letters endorsing. I think if the government today is listening to the people, and especially the people in the riding of Grey, it will certainly be supporting this resolution and making sure that it happens.

In conclusion, the people of Owen Sound and Grey have much they can be proud of and I have no problem supporting private member's Bill 9,

An Act to amend the Representation Act, which would change the name of the riding of Grey to the riding of Grey-Owen Sound.

I want to thank the member for Grey for bringing this matter before the Legislature for our attention and consideration. I would urge everyone here to support this bill, as they did when he brought the bill through to have Tartan Day 6 April.

Mr Gordon Mills (Durham East): It is a pleasure for me to rise this morning and speak to the member for Grey, we hope soon to be Owen Sound, on his Bill 9,

an act to effect a name change.

Before I go on to that, I'd just like to say how enjoyable I find history. To the member for Simcoe East, friend, colleague, I really enjoyed hearing about some of the things I've seen up in that area brought to my attention, in particular the shale in Craigleith where they discovered oil. That always amazed me. When I first came to Canada and went up there and saw that, I couldn't believe what the sign said. So I am always interested in history and it was a wonderful history lesson to hear about all the wonderful people who have come from that area over the years.

I am very familiar with the area myself. I just think it's some wonderful country there. I speak specifically of Thornbury, where those apples grow, and the beautiful scenic drive through Collingwood that always reminds me of some places in Europe that I am familiar with, as I drive along there particularly in the spring; such a wonderful spot. I am also very familiar with Meaford, but I don't speak about Meaford in such adoring terms because, as the member probably knows, that's a military training area. I spent many a mosquito-bitten summer there doing all kinds of manoeuvres. Mr Speaker, you are probably familiar with that area too.

Nevertheless, I think it's important to recognize the diversity of the member's riding and the reason why he's bringing this name change forward. Owen Sound is another beautiful rural city; it has some wonderful amenities. I have been there many times and had the pleasure, many years ago, to make the acquaintance of the member whom the member for Bruce spoke of so endearingly, Eddie Sargent, who, as we all know, was quite a character in the Owen Sound area even when he wasn't here in the Legislature.

I'm also taking recognition of the fact that the council of Owen Sound has asked the member to effect this name change. I think we would be remiss in this Legislature if we didn't recognize the impact and the concerns of the council of Owen Sound to have that city recognized in the name change of Grey-Owen Sound.

I'd be remiss if I didn't speak of my own riding in this opportunity -- Durham East. I don't know who was responsible for the realignment of Durham East. I've got to my left the member for Durham West --

Mr Drummond White (Durham Centre): Centre.

Mr Mills: Durham Centre. See how confused I am. We have the member for Durham West, we have the member for Durham East, we have the member for Durham-York, we have the member who is in Durham, but they call that Oshawa. Talk about confusing.

I represent in Durham East parts of Whitby and parts of Oshawa along with the other places in my riding. I know that annoys me a little bit when I get things that happen at Durham College, which is in my riding although it's in Whitby, and my colleague the member for Durham Centre gets the recognition, and at the same time when things happen in Oshawa, which is also in my riding, the member for Oshawa gets the signal to go to all these events.

I'm thinking maybe there's a beautiful, wonderful name for Durham East whereby we can get all this sorted out once and for all and we know it does encompass Oshawa, Whitby and other fine areas in the riding, such as Scugog, Port Perry, Bowmanville, Newtonville, and of course that quaint hamlet where I come from, Orono.

The riding of Grey at the moment, soon to become Grey-Owen Sound, is such a beautiful, wonderful riding. I've often wondered, given that parameter, why it wasn't represented by New Democrats, because I just thought it was such a super, wonderful area. I'm not going to take away from the member, who also really is a friend and colleague and a super representative for his riding. He often stands in this House debating issues on behalf of Grey and he's a very forceful person for that riding. Notwithstanding the fact that we haven't got a New Democrat there, I would accept the member as a very fine substitute at this point in time.

With that I will support his name change, because I feel he is representing his riding and he's representing the council that has asked him to endorse this. In fact this is not some idea he has, but it's really being put forward by the people, and as such I think we in this Legislature should also recognize that and support the motion of the member for Grey.

Mr Ted Arnott (Wellington): I'm pleased to rise this morning to speak in support of my colleague's resolution -- actually private member's bill -- this afternoon, second reading of Bill 9,

An Act to amend the Representation Act, in the name of Mr Bill Murdoch, riding of Grey.

Of course, as we've heard in every speech, it's a very simple matter today. It will change the name of the riding from Grey to Grey-Owen Sound in recognition of the great city of Owen Sound, 20,000 people, a geographically distinct city but also a politically distinct city. They're neighbours and good friends, but they are different, and I think to give the recognition to the city of Owen Sound is a very commendable initiative.

As we've heard said by a number of speakers this morning, there are two resolutions, one from the city of Owen Sound and one from the county of Grey, both indicating support of this resolution, so we see tangible evidence of local municipal council support, which has been solicited I believe by the member for Grey in his leadership role in representing his riding, which he accomplishes very well at all times.

Grey is to the north of my own riding of Wellington, so I think I know it quite well. It's geographically adjacent and I know the people are very similar. The small towns are very similar. The industry, the farms, the rolling countryside are all very similar. We share many different interests and issues between Grey and Wellington. The member for Huron, the member for Bruce, we all sort of represent the same types of ridings in rural Ontario, and there are a number of issues that we are concerned about.

My colleague the member for Grey has made representation in this House many, many times on the issues that concern his riding. He's done an outstanding job representing his riding. Second, when I think of the member for Grey, the thing that comes to mind is the outstanding service he gives to his riding in his constituency. I don't know of a harder-working member in his own riding.

I know that every weekend he's spent going from event to event to event, running constantly to ensure that he gets around to meet as many people of his riding as possible, to meet his constituents so he knows their concerns and he's able to come back to Toronto and represent them. I think very highly of the member for Grey and the work he has done in that respect.

A number of other names of representatives of Grey have come up in this morning's discussion, people like Eric Winkler and Bob McKessock and Eddie Sargent. I know a couple of them. I know them all by reputation very well. They were all excellent members, I believe. I know that the member for Grey is following in that fine distinction of outstanding service to his constituents.

I would just like to say once again I intend to support this private member's bill. I think it's an important issue of community recognition. I would urge all members to do that this morning.

Mr Gary Wilson (Kingston and The Islands): I am pleased to join in this debate on the member for Grey's bill. When the question of names comes up, one thing that springs to mind is a famous quote from Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet: "What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

It suggests what the member for Bruce was saying: What difference does it make what we call our ridings? To be truthful, I would have thought that the member for Grey would have wanted to call his riding Kingston and The Islands II, because I think, and I thought when I came here it was generally agreed that no riding could be called anything finer than Kingston and The Islands. There's something exotic about it; I think it strikes the proper chord to give you a lift that would add to the tone and the substance of the debate here.

However, I think it's important to realize we can't all be called Kingston and The Islands, much as we'd like to be. But there's another point here as well. This kind of debate raises the historical aspect: Just where did the names come from for these ridings? Chairing a committee that's looking at new heritage legislation, I'm very pleased to say that it's a very important aspect, the kinds of decisions we make regarding things as intangible as names. I'm pleased to hear that the member for Grey has looked at this very carefully and in fact taken a page from the New Democratic book by consulting very widely on this question before he's made this leap.

However, I do want to say that Kingston and The Islands -- first of all, people say, "Just what are those islands?" Let's put them in the record right now. They are Howe Island, Wolf Island and Amherst Island and have been included in the name since 1966. The other thing, though, is that there is a rural aspect to Kingston and The Islands, namely, Pittsburgh township, a thriving area of some 10,000 people that doesn't figure in the name Kingston and The Islands, yet is a very important part of it. I think this speaks to the member's concern that all aspects of his riding be represented.

But going back to what the member for Bruce said, I think it's probably not so important what the name of the riding is, it's what the member does. I think it's fair to say, though, you can have both. Why not have a name like Kingston and The Islands, which is an estimable, proud and honourable name, and a hardworking member? I think they go together. Not only that, it sets a very high standard to reach for. That's the kind of tradition we're trying to build.

I realize the member for Grey is attempting to start over and that's why he's included a new name in his title. He has chosen one community from several, I think, very honourable and thriving communities in his riding. I certainly wish him luck. I think there are some solid things he can do. Certainly, by looking at what our Treasurer has come up with in his budget, he can think about the priorities we've set, that is, job creation, protecting social services and controlling the deficit, and look to those kinds of things to work in his riding to build the kind of reputation that several of our ridings on this side enjoy, and I think in particular of Kingston and The Islands.

I am very pleased to associate the proud tradition that my riding has with this riding as it begins its history. The best of luck to the member for Grey.

Mr David Turnbull (York Mills): I'm pleased to join the debate in the brief time I have. I'm actually one of the member for Grey's constituents. I have my cottage up there, and indeed many of the people of York Mills have cottages in Grey county. I'm delighted to support this bill. I'm delighted to support Bill in his bill to change the name. It's reflective of the fact that he wants to truly reflect the wishes of the people.

Grey county is a wonderful place, filled with people with good, honest values. Bill Murdoch represents those values. He's in favour of less government, less government intrusion, but he's concerned about the social wellbeing of people. Indeed, his wife worked tirelessly for many years in social services. His concerns for his county are well reflected in this bill and everything he does, the hard work in this House and in his riding, are very reflective of this.

I want to congratulate the member and say: "Bill, keep on representing me well up in Grey. Make sure that market value reassessment is not passed in Grey and continue to prosper as the member for this riding for many years and many elections when we're the government of Ontario, when we start putting Ontario back to work and getting taxes down. I know you'll do a fine job as the minister. I congratulate you and I'm pleased to support you."

The Deputy Speaker: The member for Grey.

Mr Murdoch: Thank you, Mr Speaker.

The Deputy Speaker: I apologize. Is there time left for the -- 60 seconds. The member for Durham Centre.

Mr White: I rise to support my friend from Owen Sound and Grey, but I also want to clarify some points my colleague the member for Durham East made. First of all, Durham is not in my friend's area. There is a town called Durham, but the region of Durham and the five or six ridings that call themselves Durham have nothing to do with that town, unfortunately. They have to do with the fact that it's the regional municipality of Durham we represent.

Many people might think, coming from a riding called Durham Centre, that my riding is in fact right in the middle of the region; it's not. It's in the middle of the heart of all the people in the region, of course, but not in the geographical heart. My riding actually is composed of the urban areas of Whitby, which extends far up, and the northern half of Oshawa. Durham West and Durham East, although they seem like they're not in the centre, are not peripheral ridings.

Mr Bernard Grandmaître (Ottawa East): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: My colleague the member for Bruce used all the Liberal time. I would like to go on record that I will be supporting Bill 9.

The Deputy Speaker: This is not a point of order. The member for Grey.

Mr Murdoch: First, I would like to thank all the members here who supported this resolution: Paul Klopp from Huron, Al McLean from Simcoe East, Ted Arnott from Wellington, Gord Mills from Durham East, Gary Wilson from Kingston and The Islands -- that's an excellent name -- David Turnbull from York Mills, Drummond White from Durham Centre and Ben Grandmaître. How would I help not thanking Ben.

Ben has helped me out in many things when Ben was the Minister of Municipal Affairs in Grey county. We worked together on some problems with the Niagara Escarpment and we have an industry up there due to Ben's hard work. He phoned us one night, we came down, we discussed things and got it all sorted out. We appreciate the work you've done for us then, Ben, and I know we'll work together in the future.

I want to just reiterate that both the city of Owen Sound and the county of Grey have supported this. The city of Owen Sound, to some of my members over there, is a separated city. It is not part of the county, so this is one of the reasons I would like to recognize that. Hanover, Meaford and Thornbury, while being proud urban centres, are part of Grey county which they are also proud to be part of. We have the two distinct municipalities and this is why we want to reflect this.

I also would like to say that I think there is something in a name. People are proud of their names. I'm proud of my name and I think all members in the House are proud of their names and the names of their ridings and I think this is an important thing. One member mentioned that maybe some of the other members from my riding weren't as concerned about their name. I think they were. It's just that their ridings at that time were different.

In 1987 there was restructuring and my riding became totally the riding of Grey county and Owen Sound. I think this reflects that. I thank everyone for their support.

The Deputy Speaker: The time for the first ballot item has expired.

AMBULANCE OFFICERS DAY

Mr Morrow moved resolution 11:

That in the opinion of this House, since ambulance officers work in a stressful environment and in life and death situations, February 20 in each year should be recognized and proclaimed as Ambulance Officers Day.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Gilles E. Morin): Pursuant to standing order 94(c)(i), the honourable member has 10 minutes for his presentation.

Mr Mark Morrow (Wentworth East): I rise today to address the proclamation of February 20 as Ambulance Officers Day. Back when I was first approached by ambulance officers, I had very little knowledge of what was involved in the job. I, like most others, just saw people who appeared in the middle of a crisis, did their job and disappeared.

After hours of meetings, I now have a better understanding of what it takes to work in this type of situation, to enter a home and see a child just after he's been burned by a cigarette, or arrive at a bus crash to assist injured people in a tangle of wreckage, or transfer a patient from one hospital to another as their body is ravaged by cancer. It is enough to make me have a deeper respect for all the members of this profession. Every time an ambulance passes me now, I pause, I take a little time, I think just a little differently than I did a few short months ago.

I will discuss the training and education needed by these civil servants before they are hired, the ongoing upgrading needed, the job stress, plus the life-threatening occurrences that are part of their employment. Before one can even be considered for this position, a prospective ambulance officer must first complete a one-year course at a community college. In Ontario, 10 colleges offer this course, with Fanshawe, Niagara, St Clair and Conestoga being the representative schools in the southwestern area.

The curriculum of this schooling includes: anatomy and physiology, patient care, basics in psychology and psychiatric behaviour, practical skills in care of ambulance equipment, infection control, driving skills, care of the ambulance, administrative procedures that include integration of dispatch care and patient assessment skills.

After the course is completed, successful graduates must take an emergency medical care assistance examination, which is administered by the Ministry of Health, and if they pass are allowed to seek employment anywhere in the province with a private company or even with the government of Ontario. But this is not the end of their educational involvement. Ambulance officers must continue to upgrade their skills in new equipment, new medical procedures and new techniques.

Besides this, recertification must continually be done in the areas of cardiopulmonary resuscitation, or CPR as we better know it, first aid, they must receive inoculations for hepatitis B and maintain their class F driver's licence. That's quite a bit of work.

Treatment in most communities involves arriving at the scene and getting the injured person to a hospital for medical assistance as quickly as possible. The only service they will perform is the administering of oxygen, but there are times, in life-threatening situations, where they must do defibrillation.

In the Hamilton and Toronto areas, paramedics are also on duty. Besides having completed their year in community college, they received specialized training from the base hospital in basic and advanced life support skill maintenance. This gives them training in specialized areas including IV therapy, use of certain drugs for pain relief and methods of insertion of tubes to assist breathing. The treatment someone would receive is comparable to the first 15 minutes in emergency.

This means that highly trained ambulance officers can, with the assistance of the medical staff at a base hospital, begin treatment of a patient in the ambulance. This, besides stabilizing the patient in transit, also gives the hospital information on the status of the incoming person that will increase survivability. In some communities, this gives the hospital time to put a team of specialized health care staff on standby, ready for the patient's arrival.

There are at present roughly 4,000 ambulance officers in the province of Ontario, which is a substantial number; roughly 16% of them are women. This used to be a male-dominated field, but I'm glad that is quickly changing.

There are constant stresses that go with this type of employment. In a discussion with ambulance officers, during an average 10-hour shift there are 7.5 calls per vehicle, which roughly adds up to 1.5 million calls throughout the province per year, 40% of these calls being emergencies involving life-threatening situations, including heart attacks, car accidents, domestic violence, airplane crashes, drowning and fires.

When someone is wearing a uniform in the middle of a dispute with weapons involved, dangerous situations can and often do take place: Some ambulance officers have been shot as they arrive on the scene of an injury. With the assistance of firefighters and police, it is possible for these professionals to quickly remove those who are injured from the dispute.

One shining example of the commitment of ambulance officers to their work was during the Mississauga train derailment. I'm sure everybody in this House still remembers that incident 10 years ago. Within eight hours, over 120 ambulances were on the site from all over the province. Three hospitals were evacuated and all surrounding nursing homes also had residents moved. During that time, officers worked between 16 and 24 hours per day to get their job done. This of course is not the only time this happens, but it is an example of how services can be coordinated during a dangerous event.

Air ambulance officers also serve, in the use of paramedics, to assist the transfer of patients from one hospital to another for more specialized treatment that may include organ donations or transplants.

Ambulance officers, working closely with the staff of the Ministry of Health, have instituted developments in equipment to assist patients and staff. Presently field testing is taking place on a brand-new stretcher that reduces the amount of strength needed to lift an injured person into an ambulance. Members of this House should know that a person will be lifted four different times between the accident and his or her placement in a bed in a hospital.

With the average weight of 200 pounds per patient, 80 pounds for a stretcher and 30 pounds for equipment, there would and could be severe stress on the back of each staff person. This new equipment should make travel safer and also reduce injuries to medical staff.

Using Oakville as a focus, informal celebrations of Ambulance Officers Day have occurred, with events like hockey tournaments. In 1992, that brought over 300 officers together and raised over $2,500, which was donated to the children's ward at Credit Valley Hospital.

What this proclamation would do is formalize a specific day that recognizes the work done by ambulance officers, the unrecognized emergency services. It is my hope that this will get women and men together in big and small groups in communities all over Ontario to pat each other on the back for all the work they do for our health care system.

This proclamation is not something that will change the face of the province but accomplishes something very special and very personal. The 1990s have become a very cynical time, with many people constantly criticizing government, civil servants, media and even their neighbours. Instead of this, I am hoping that more time is spent on sharing what we have in common than arguing about differences. A proclamation that recognizes the commitment ambulance officers give to the community is a very small action on behalf of the members of this chamber to women and men who work in life and death struggles every day.

I would like now to close by saying that there are ambulance officers in the building today to rally some members. I understand that they're having something outside at 12 o'clock and I would like all members of the House to join them and to have a talk to them.

Mrs Barbara Sullivan (Halton Centre): I'm pleased to participate in this debate and I commend Mr Morrow for bringing the issue of ambulance operations to the floor of the Legislature. I recall that the member's last contribution to private members' hour was also on a health care issue, and I think it's useful to have these matters before us in the House so there can be a generic debate outside a specific government policy or opposition response or proposals.

I can speak, like many others in the House, quite personally about my gratitude to ambulance workers. As a young teenager, my own life was saved by skilled attendants after I was thrown from a car on to the Queen Elizabeth Way after our automobile was devastated by a hit-and-run driver. The training and the skills and the quick thinking of that crew meant that emergency care was provided on the road, in the ambulance and right into the emergency department of St Joseph's Hospital.

One of the attendants had managed to pick up every single one of my teeth, which had been scattered on the road, the shoulder and the ditch, and carried them into the hospital, where they were all ultimately stitched back in, which accounts somewhat for the way I look today when I either smile or growl.

Some 10 years later, after that personal incident, I once again had an opportunity to be grateful for the skills of ambulance attendants when my oldest daughter was transferred to the Hospital for Sick Children in a high-risk situation. My stories could be repeated, I have no doubt, by everyone in this chamber and by hundreds of thousands of people across the province. They're personal and they're real and they reflect the daily and nightly work of ambulance attendants.

When we were looking through material that might be interesting to bring to the floor in the context of this discussion, an enterprising researcher in the legislative library came across a book, called A Century of Red Blankets, written by James Hanna in 1982 as a history of ambulance service in Ontario.

Mr Hanna's research takes us back to 1880 when an anonymous female benefactor presented Ontario's first ambulance to the Toronto General Hospital. It was a solitary horse-drawn carriage, and while it was the first in Canada, it followed a tradition going back to Napoleon's battlefields where field hospitals known as "hôpitaux ambulants," or "moving hospitals," transported medical personnel to the field site, not patients away from it.

Napoleon's chief surgeon, Baron Larrey, who developed the field hospital, was dissatisfied with that approach and developed the "ambulance volante," or "flying ambulance," which at that time were horse-drawn vehicles capable of carrying wounded and their medications to a care sector. Those vehicles had floors which lifted out to double as stretchers.

I will refer to Mr Hanna's book for only one other piece of history, but I do commend it to those members who might enjoy his well-documented presentation. He tells us that ambulance services in Ontario were slow to begin because health care was usually delivered in people's homes by physicians, largely because it was impractical to do otherwise because of long distances, few hospitals and uncertain roads, which meant that emergency care was generally provided at the patient's bedside. Hanna writes:

"Where ambulance service existed at all it was usually provided by the local undertaker, often with the same carriage used for funerals. How the undertaker fell heir to this role is the subject of conjecture. One popular hypothesis is that he was the only one to possess a carriage, other than a haulage wagon, sufficiently long to accept the prone human form."

Even when ambulances first came into being, first at the Toronto General and then at Kitchener-Waterloo Hospital, the local undertaker continued to provide service. Hanna tells us:

"It is interesting to note the term 'Private Ambulance' on many of the early ambulances operated by undertakers in the larger centres. This was a sure sign to those about that their neighbour was 'going in style' and not being carried away in the city-owned ambulance that carried the drunk, the infectious and the indigent sick."

We've seen the evolution of ambulance services. At the turn of the century ambulances were operated by hospitals, undertakers, volunteers and cities. Today they continue to be operated by those same people and by others as well. In the early days payment was supposed to be made by the patient to the undertaker, although we're told by Hanna that the payment was rarely collected because the undertaker probably expected to see the patient on another occasion. That too has evolved from a fee-for-service situation to OHIP coverage for medically necessary ambulance services with a copayment feature.

Training requirements have changed for ambulance attendants, and as those requirements have changed we have attendants working with different qualifications and formal training, sometimes within the same ambulance service today. The equipment has become more sophisticated, moving from the one-horse carriage to vehicles carrying highly technical equipment and monitoring devices and telecommunications networks. The air ambulance system adds another dimension to the sophistication of the system.

I think, along with the member, that we can all be proud of the high level of emergency health care we have in Ontario today and of the practitioners who are responsible for the delivery of that care. Along with others in the House, I salute them.

In my remarks today I particularly want to walk into the past and trace the rather ad hoc evolution of ambulance services to reach the point where we have settled today, because this very day, I'm told, ambulance operators are meeting at Queen's Park and ambulance attendants will gather in a demonstration on the front steps. The issues that are at the tops of their minds are ones which spring directly from the evolution of ambulance services in Ontario.

Successive governments have responded to emergency service needs. In 1968 the Tories centralized responsibility at the provincial level for the development, control and funding of ambulance services, and in 1973 ambulance services were transferred from the Ontario Hospital Services Commission to the Ministry of Health. In 1989 Elinor Caplan, then Minister of Health, injected $18 million into the system to enhance the quality of ambulance services, regional trauma networks and critical care hotlines.

In February 1991, then-Health Minister Evelyn Gigantes announced a review of emergency medical services, chaired by Dr Gene Swimmer. That report is now available, and following post-report consultations a final report will be submitted to the Minister of Health in June. To date the current minister has not responded to that initial report, and perhaps that is appropriate within the context of the process.

I want to tell you that I won't be supporting this resolution today, because I think real action is far more important than the symbolic action which is being called for in this resolution. I believe that if ambulance attendants want real recognition and if ambulance operators hope for a continued place in the system, they will have to look to the very real actions by the Minister of Health in mid-June.

The government is not bound to implement or honour a resolution of this House, and in my view, while Mr Morrow has put forward an honourable sentiment in his resolution, it is one with little meaning. Furthermore, there is a day for the recognition of the skills and work and contributions of all workers, and that is Labour Day.

The Swimmer report, to which I referred, contains 109 recommendations, one of which is the creation of a crown agency commission to be the sole provider of all air and land ambulances across Ontario and the sole employer of all ambulance workers. Another recommendation is the universal availability of the 911 service in all towns and regions in Ontario. In Swimmer's recommendations, one bargaining unit for all ambulance workers would be put into place, with a limited strike provision. A distinct separation between emergency and non-emergency services would be introduced into the system.

Recommendations surround implementation of base hospital and advanced life support systems, training, pension plans and other issues.

Some of the Swimmer report recommendations have validity and have been recognized through other reports and indeed by actions of previous ministers of health and previous governments. But one of the recommendations which will itself create stress and controversy is the intention to ease the independent operator from the system, to buy him out according to a formula. This issue has not been explored in any real depth in the consultation period.

From the date of completion of the Swimmer report until the final day when the minister finishes and receives the report from post-report meetings the time is far too short. It's now opportune for the Minister of Health to speak out and advise us where she sees the place of the independent ambulance operator within the system and where she sees the place of the ambulance attendant in the system. When we hear the Minister of Health's response to the Swimmer report we will know precisely the government's intent to honour ambulance workers and ambulance operators. We await that information patiently.

We have seen an ideological base for many of the decisions of this government. We saw actions in relationship to independent operators of child care centres which leave those independent operators in a position where the buyout is almost the only appropriate step to be taken. Despite parental choice and the same licensing requirements and quality of care that's provided by child care workers in the private centres, an ideological base to that decision has meant that $75 million available to child care has been diverted to a purpose not associated with the delivery of child care services.

The Swimmer report would see the same thing occur in the ambulance sector, where money would be diverted from the delivery of health care services to the buyout of private operators. The minister has not spoken to this. It is important for people in Ontario to know the place of the private operator who has been a part of the history, functioning and quality delivery of care. Where does that person fit in this government's ideology?

I think we in the House understand that there have been questions surrounding the place of medical laboratory services and of other health care services delivered by independent operators. Through this report, and because of the lack of the minister's response to the report to date, we are left in a position where we see once again another valid service now provided through an independent operator being threatened.

I will not be supporting this resolution. I believe that Labour Day is the day when all workers are celebrated for the skill, effort, stress and contribution they make to our society as a whole. I believe that symbolic action is not enough. We need to hear from the minister on this issue.

Mr Allan K. McLean (Simcoe East): I welcome the opportunity to say a few words about this resolution from the member for Wentworth East. He is asking the Legislature to recognize and proclaim February 20 in each year as Ambulance Officers Day in Ontario because ambulance officers work in a stressful environment and in life and death situations.

I'm in complete agreement with the principle of this resolution. There's no doubt in my mind that ambulance officers, along with firefighters and police officers, often work under extremely stressful and life-threatening conditions. One moment they will be maintaining their equipment at a leisurely pace and the next moment their heartbeats accelerate as they respond to an alarm. Unfortunately a majority of these alarms turn out to be false due to faulty equipment, malicious intent or individual error.

This poses a very real threat to ambulance officers and to firefighters and police officers who unexpectedly run into a very real emergency after becoming complacent about responding to numerous false alarms.

Recognizing and proclaiming an Ambulance Officers Day sounds good in theory, but it will do little if anything to relieve stress and properly equip emergency personnel to deal with life and death situations. To accomplish this I would suggest that the NDP government give serious consideration to my private member's Bill 2,

An Act to regulate Alarm Systems, which was introduced and received first reading on April 7, 1992. Members will no doubt recall that I introduced this private member's bill back on November 29, 1990 after this government took power, but it died on the order paper when the Legislature prorogued on December 19, 1991.

My private member's bill is related to the resolution we are debating here today. It would establish a licensing system for those installing alarm systems and a system of fines for false alarms that cause an unnecessary response from emergency personnel. Emergency personnel have indicated that more than three quarters of the alarms to which they respond are false and result in an enormous amount of wasted time and money. The rise in false alarms in Ontario is drawing emergency personnel away from dealing with really serious situations.

I believe repeat false alarms can make emergency personnel complacent about their investigations and expose them to danger when responding to real crisis situations.

I received a lot of support from emergency personnel and municipal officials when I first introduced the private member's bill in 1990. As well, a number of solicitors general under the previous Liberal government and the current NDP government have indicated they favour this type of private member's bill because there is presently no legislation on the books to address the issue of false alarms.

While I agree there is a very real need for this type of legislation, the provincial government is jeopardizing the safety of our emergency personnel by not moving on this issue as soon as possible. It would go a long way towards relieving stress in their work environment. Other assistance is available in the form of adequate equipment and appropriate facilities.

A prime example of an inappropriate facility is the $440,000 Taj Mahal ambulance station on Highway 11 near Washago, which many people have come to call Washago's new ski slope because of its huge sloping roof. The provincial representative for Local 314 of the Ontario Public Service Employees Union has called this structure a mind-boggling waste of taxpayers' money.

The Royal Victoria Hospital in Barrie was directed by the Ministry of Health to build and operate an ambulance substation near Washago and a second one near Craighurst. A hospital official said the roof is large to enable people to see it better when they want to locate it easily during an emergency. The OPSEU representative responded that you don't want people coming to the substation because ambulance attendants could very well be out on a call. He said the whole point of having an ambulance service is to be able to get help to people when they call and ask for it. No one goes to an ambulance depot looking for emergency service; they call.

Rather than just recognizing and proclaiming February 20 each year as Ambulance Officers Day because they work in a stressful environment and in life and death situations, let's give them the appropriate level of support and assistance to better enable them to deal with that stress.

I want to repeat the news announcement that was in the paper with regard to the ambulance stations: "It's an emergency building. The reason the roof is so large is so people can see it in an emergency situation. You can't take the time to try to locate the building. It has to be very visible." That is from a member of the Royal Victoria Hospital staff, which was responsible for building these two buildings at $440,000 each.

What we need is an extension of our 911 number; that's where they should be putting more effort in order to be able to cover more of the province. The government should be putting more effort into the committee that was established to look into 911 across this province. I have not seen where it has established that for emergency calls that our ambulance people have to answer.

It is my understanding that the government is in the process of developing its response to the Swimmer report. It is a report recommending yet another level of bureaucracy. My understanding is that there is some 109 recommendations in that report, so it should come as no surprise that our party is prepared to fight any further attempts of this government to eradicate the private sector involvement in the delivery of health and social services.

We believe the private sector has an important role in the delivery of ambulance services in this province and we will fight this government to ensure that the role is not infringed upon.

Where does the minister stand with regard to the Swimmer report? We have not heard one word from her with regard to the easing out of the private sector, which I am sure she would very likely want to do.

I have a bill we call the boating bill, which is try to get some control on the waterways of this province. If this legislation were passed to regulate and make sure there is more safety on our waterways, we would have fewer emergency calls. This is what I call prevention, not after the fact. Let's do it before it happens. That boating bill would certainly give the police the authority to regulate and to make sure anybody on that waterway who is driving a vessel knows what the rules of the waterway are. That way it's preventive medicine, so to speak, that will relieve our emergency ambulance operators of some of the calls they may have.

I understand that there are some people here today from right across this province demonstrating -- they don't demonstrate; they're good, law-abiding people, but they want to be here to be recognized and they want to be here so we know they are important. We know how important they are. They've got to take all these courses, they've got to keep their licences up to date, they've got to get the CPR recommendations, emergency. Nobody knows the value unless you need to call. It's just like insurance; everybody thinks he's got great insurance until he wants to use it. I can't say that for the ambulance operators. We all think they're great and they are. They've saved many people's lives.

When we look at this bill today and having February 20 as a day to recognize ambulance officers, I believe it's important but I also believe the firefighters and our police officers are all part of that group that supplies the services to the people. I think a better effort on behalf of the government and the committee that was set up to look at the 911 number is that it be expanded so people right across this province would have the opportunity to dial that when they need it.

I commend the people we're speaking about here today, with the stressful environment they work in. I want to support this resolution and perhaps it will lead to something else being established.

I should mention that some time ago I introduced a bill here that was called Heritage Day. I was looking at the third Monday in February as a holiday to recognize our history. We talked about our past and looked towards the future when we discussed such a bill. That bill would have given us a day whereby we could reflect upon the people we're speaking about here today. We could have something in that bill that this could be recognized as a special day for emergency people who supply the service that we have across this province, namely, our police officers, our firefighters and our ambulance workers.

Perhaps when that bill receives second reading it could go to committee and could be amended to include this very aspect within that bill. We could then have a holiday on the third Monday of February -- it's one of the months where there is not one; the member from Ottawa is thinking about going to Naples on that day, I'm sure -- where we could then recognize those three groups of people for the effort they put in to care for and to look after the people in this province.

As I said before, we don't realize the value we have in the services that are provided through our health care system in emergencies until we have to use them, and I'm pleased to be here today to support my colleague on his bill. Discussing this type of thing is what leads to making the public more aware and involved in exactly what we're talking about. While I want to support the bill, I think we can deal with this type of thing in the heritage bill, as I indicated. I also talked about the alarm bill I had with regard to false alarms. Thank you, Mr Speaker, for the time.

Mr Kimble Sutherland (Oxford): It's a pleasure for me to rise and join in support of the resolution of my colleague the member for Wentworth East. I too had been thinking about a similar resolution, something to the effect of an ambulance services week being declared. We give recognition to Police Services Week, we have Fire Prevention Week, but we don't always recognize the other significant portion of emergency service that is provided, that is, ambulance services throughout our different communities.

There is no doubt that Police Services Week and the work our fire officers do needs to be recognized, but I also think we need to recognize the significant contribution that ambulance officers and ambulance services provide in this province.

When many of us think of health care, we automatically think of hospitals -- that's the first thing that comes to mind -- hospitals or doctors' offices, going for our health care. We sometimes forget that when we have a true health care crisis as the result of an accident or something else, the first people there to treat us are ambulance officers.

I'm on the road quite a bit, as many of the members are, and I'm sure we all hear the sirens go by and see the ambulance officers. I think this is a good opportunity to remind all people that ambulances are emergency vehicles and that all of us on the road should do our best to get out of their way as quickly as possible, because they are responding probably to an emergency, in many cases a life-and-death situation.

I think it takes a very special person to be an ambulance officer, to be able to respond to all the different situations like car accidents, where people are in very desperate situations; as the member for Wentworth East has said, to be called to places where there may be guns involved and shooting going on. It's a very dangerous thing to be doing. It's also very dangerous to be in a high-speed ambulance on the way to the hospital, trying to get a person there very quickly.

Many people have gone into the field of ambulance officers as a career. The unfortunate thing is that many people who are there are not going to be able to continue being ambulance officers due to a great deal of stress and workplace injury. Recently, I met with my local ambulance service in Oxford and found it a very educational experience. I really didn't have a good understanding of how the system works.

What hit home was the fact that there are many ambulance officers on compensation these days because of the stresses and strains of the job, trying to move bodies and trying to be careful not to cause any injury while moving bodies, which in some cases are very heavy. That puts a great strain on backs. As much as we're all taught how to lift things properly, when you're involved as an ambulance operator, you can't always do that. You're not in ideal circumstances. So I think it's very important that we recognize them.

The member for Halton Centre said she wasn't going to support this resolution because ambulance officers, like all other people, can be recognized on Labour Day. But we do recognize our police officers for their bravery and courage, as we should. We have medals for bravery and courage for them. We have the same thing for firefighters. I'm surprised we don't offer medals in this province for ambulance officers who do respond in very courageous ways to life-and-death situations. I certainly hope some consideration would be given to them.

I think ambulance services, the work ambulance officers do, is one of the least understood portions of our health care system by the public. I must say, until my recent meeting with my local service, my understanding was very poor. We see them go by, we know we need them in an emergency, but we don't understand some of the systems and some of the problems.

I think there are some concerns as to how the system operates. One of the concerns that was expressed to me was how the dispatch system works in our area. We have a central dispatch and it calls out the ambulances. The problem is that you have supervisors at the local detachment in Woodstock and they can't keep in direct connection with the ambulances, because it's done through a central dispatch. That does create some difficulties.

But there is no doubt that there is a need for this day. I suggest there's probably even a need to go further and have an Ambulance Services Awareness Week, where the emphasis can be on the many dedicated people who are ambulance officers. Again, we all should take time to reflect on the very tremendous work these people do. We take them for granted, but when we need them they're always there in a very professional manner, doing their best to respond and get us to more medical treatment if we need that.

I've read some of the stuff in the Swimmer report and will be waiting with great interest to see how the ministry responds. But I'm also concerned by the fact that ambulance officers overall are extremely well-trained individuals and have the ability to do a lot more functions that they're not allowed to do right now. I'm very concerned about that, given that we know that in many cases, if it's a heart attack victim, what occurs in the first 10 to 15 minutes may determine whether he lives or not, and also how he responds in terms of his recovery.

We need to look seriously at whether we can increase the activities ambulance officers undertake to ensure that we're working in the best interests of those victims who suffer heart attacks and that they can get that treatment as quickly as possible to increase their chances of recovery as much as possible. As I say, I will wait with great interest to see how the Minister of Health will respond to some of the recommendations in the Swimmer report.

I'm going to conclude my comments here and just say that I think all of us should be supporting the resolution from the member for Wentworth East to recognize the significant dedication of our many ambulance officers across this province and throughout all our communities. There is no doubt that all of us would be in worst circumstances and, as the member for Halton Centre indicated, that without their fine and dedicated work, unfortunately some of us might not even be here today.

Congratulations to the ambulance officers. Keep up the great work you're doing for all of us.

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): I'm pleased to be able to join for even a short time in this particular debate to pay tribute to those who are providing a service to the people of the province of Ontario which is very much appreciated, particularly by those who are in the family of people who have been injured, have been ill or who themselves have had this experience.

I don't think that people recognize fully, until such time as they require an ambulance, just how important it is to have people who move expeditiously and operate in a very kind and caring way to patients across the province. Many elderly patients at home are visited by an ambulance when an emergency arises. Very often of course that is a life-and-death circumstance, or at least one where there is serious illness, and it is very encouraging to know that there are dedicated people who are on duty 24 hours a day, seven days a week, whether the weather is good or bad, under all circumstances.

I think all of us in this Legislature owe a debt to those people who have dedicated themselves to this particular profession. Very often the people who receive most of the accolades are the doctors, particularly those who are involved in spectacular operations. I think all of us know that there are people who are first on the scene. The scene they see is not a very pleasant one in many circumstances.

I think of major accidents, of automobile accidents, of disasters, where those who are involved with the ambulances, those who are in the ambulances, are first on the scene providing first aid and ensuring that the people are moved to a hospital facility as quickly as possible. I think all of us in this Legislature pay tribute to those people today and I'm pleased that this resolution has come forward so that we have the opportunity to do so.

Mr Bill Murdoch (Grey): It's a privilege and an honour to stand up and support my colleague's resolution today and talk in the short time I have about our ambulance workers. In my area we have a number of them. As I said before, my area is a large area of Grey and Owen Sound and there are a lot of different situations they get into, in the wintertime especially. We have harsh winters in our area and they have to go to many back roads and areas where people have accidents and things like that. They have to be there. We certainly appreciate all the work they do.

If it wasn't for some of the ambulance workers in our area, there would be a lot more deaths happening. They're there first. They get right there as soon as they can.

I must point out too they have to work, as the member for St Catharines pointed out, seven days a week. They also have to work on Sundays. It is one of the workforces out there that works on Sundays and the weekends. Our area, being a highly tourist area, has a lot of different accidents that happen because of the different natures of some of the sports and things like that. So we certainly appreciate all the work they do.

I will be supporting this resolution. I want to thank the member for Wentworth East for bringing this forward. I think it's an excellent idea.

Mr Paul Wessenger (Simcoe Centre): It's a pleasure to be here, to be able to speak in support of this resolution. Ambulance workers certainly are among many workers in our society who are unrecognized and who ought to be recognized, when you look at the stress they have, the value of the work they do and the contribution they make. From personal discussions with many ambulance workers, I know the difficulty of the job. I know the stress, because I've met those who have had to take time off to cope with the stress they've had on their jobs, including the physical aspect.

We recognize in our society police with Police Week. We recognize firefighters with Fire Prevention Week. We recognize nurses for the work they do with Nurses Week. So I think it's only appropriate we should recognize another very key component of the health care area and that is ambulance workers.

Ambulance workers are of course part of an emergency services group that includes physicians, nurses and dispatchers, all of whom contribute greatly. We perhaps should look at recognizing not only ambulance workers, but also all emergency health personnel. I know in the United States there have a week established, a National Emergency Medical Services Week. Perhaps we should look at that and consider that in this province, in order to recognize the contribution all emergency health workers make.

If we look at our ambulance system here in Ontario, it has done a good job. We have consistently had high-quality service. Our cost per call, cost per capita and response time make Ontario compare well with other jurisdictions. We've had quite a growth in the system. As a result, we have somewhat of a patchwork system in Ontario.

There are seven different types of ownership within the ambulance system. The ministry operates five dedicated air ambulances and also contracts with general aviation contractors on a per-trip basis. Nine of the 177 land ambulance services operating in the province are directly owned and operated by the Ministry of Health and four are run on contracts with the ministry. Sixty-six services are owned and operated by hospitals, 28 by volunteer services and four by municipalities. The last group of operators are private operators who were accorded this new status by regulation following the determination of the Ontario Public Service Labour Relations Tribunal.

Last year, the ambulance service in this province handled a total of 1,180,022 calls. Of these, 519,846, or 44%, were emergency calls. That's quite a number of emergency calls and indication of the high level of importance the service has and the high level of emergency situations the workers have to deal with.

With our present system, I think there is concern with the change in our health care system, with the change in our hospital system, with the rationalization of our hospital system and with the need to have a health strategy that keeps health costs under control. We have to look to changes with respect to all health services and with respect to the ambulance services; that is no exception.

As a result of that need to look at changes, the government did commission the Swimmer report, and at the present time there is a committee established to review the Swimmer report and public consultation has occurred, began in Sudbury on April 15. A report on this matter is expected to be submitted to the minister by the end of June. At that time of course the ministry will look at the appropriate changes that may be needed to cope with the future demands on the system.

Again I urge all members to support this resolution.

The Deputy Speaker: The member for Durham East.

[Applause]

Mr Gordon Mills (Durham East): Is that for -- oh, okay. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.

First of all, I'd just like to say what a pleasure it is today not only to rise to speak in support of my colleague the member for Wentworth East's motion but also to talk about Thursdays in general. I always find it so refreshing to be here, to be able to talk to resolutions colleagues bring forward in an openness free of any sort of pressure from the government we represent. We can truly speak and say things from our hearts.

Mr Wayne Lessard (Windsor-Walkerville): We always do, Gord.

Mr Mills: I know, but I find it somewhat regrettable that Thursday mornings don't seem to attract as many people as they should, because surely to goodness this period in time is the opportunity we have to say what we think and to really speak from our hearts. So it's a great pleasure for me to be here today to support the proclamation.

I'm just going to speak to the resolution about the Ambulance Officers Day. Previously, before my appointment to the Minister of Municipal Affairs, I was the parliamentary assistant to the Solicitor General. In that role I had a great opportunity to travel the province and to be closely associated, also under the umbrella of the Solicitor General, with the firefighters.

Through my connection with the firefighters I too came into close contact with many of the ambulance drivers and the ambulance attendants and those folks, and I must say that they left me with a tremendous impression of their professional knowledge, the way they dealt with situations. I know in my own riding of Durham East I'm amazed at the response time into rural communities when someone suffers a heart attack and the ambulance is right there at the door.

In addition to the ambulance people who are here today, I would like to take a few moments to recognize the ambulance staff in my riding, the ambulance drivers in Oshawa, the ambulance drivers in Whitby, the ambulance people in Port Perry and in Bowmanville, all of whom do such a wonderful, tremendous job in looking after the people in Durham East, mostly in very traumatic circumstances and in most circumstances in matters of life and death.

I commend the member. We have days to recognize doctors, days to recognize policemen, days to recognize nurses, and I can think of no better resolution than a day to recognize the tremendous contribution ambulance drivers make to our society in Ontario.

Mr Morrow: I would like to personally recognize three paramedics from Hamilton in my riding of Wentworth East -- I apologize if I get your last names wrong: Mario Posteraro, Jeff Dunford and David Donais.

I see giving ambulance officers a day of recognition as being a non-partisan issue, and it really saddened me that the member for Halton Centre used it as very petty politics to get at changes that should be made in the Ministry of Health. Yes, she's right, changes should be made, but they should not be made when you're trying to recognize somebody, especially the unrecognized emergency services. They're there to help us. Those people are there before the media gets there, they're there usually before the police and firefighters get there, they do their job and they get out.

I would like to thank the member for Simcoe East for his kind words of encouragement. I'd like to thank all the members of the government side for the support they've shown me in doing this. I would really like to thank the ambulance officers over the last two weeks who've shown me support and encouragement and given me a lot of material I can use. I'm very proud to stand in the House today to recognize them. I do believe they should be recognized every year for all the hard work they do. I look forward to seeing support for this from all three sides of the House.

The Deputy Speaker: The time provided for private members' public business has expired.

REPRESENTATION AMENDMENT ACT, 1992 / LOI DE 1992 MODIFIANT LA

LOI SUR LA REPRÉSENTATION ÉLECTORALE

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Gilles E. Morin): We will deal first with ballot item 9 standing in the name of Mr Murdoch.

Mr Murdoch has moved second reading of Bill 9,

An Act to amend the Representation Act. Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry?

Motion agreed to.

The Deputy Speaker: Pursuant to standing order 94(k), the bill is referred to the committee of the whole House.

Bill ordered for committee of the whole House.

AMBULANCE OFFICERS DAY

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Gilles E. Morin): We will now deal with ballot item 10 standing in the name of Mr Morrow.

Mr Morrow has moved private member's resolution 11. Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry?

Motion agreed to.

The Deputy Speaker: All matters relating to private members' public business having been completed, I do now leave the chair. The House will resume at 1:30 this afternoon.

The House recessed at 1157.

AFTERNOON SITTING

The House resumed at 1331.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

L'ÉCONOMIE DE L'ONTARIO

M. Bernard Grandmaître (Ottawa-Est) : Je n'ai pas besoin de prouver à personne ici dans cette salle que les francophones de l'Ontario sont patients, même trop patients. Je ne connais pas de Franco-Ontarien qui soit content d'avoir à manifester devant cette Assemblée législative. J'ai pensé qu'il était important de donner au gouvernement des nouvelles de la part des citoyens francophones de l'Ontario.

J'ai le plaisir de m'entretenir à l'occasion avec Mme Claudette Gingras, femme d'affaires franco-ontarienne bien en vue. Mme Gingras attend des signes clairs du gouvernement sur la façon de sortir l'Ontario de la récession. Elle pense que le secteur privé peut grandement aider, à la condition qu'on lui en donne la possibilité.

Mme Gingras se demande pourquoi le gouvernement a l'air tellement enthousiasmé par l'idée des casinos, alors qu'il pourrait générer infiniment plus de revenus simplement en faisait ce que la majorité de la population veut en réalité, c'est-à-dire qu'on donne la possibilité à l'entreprise privée d'ici de concurrencer.

À l'heure actuelle, ça veux dire, entre autres choses, laisser les communautés qui le veulent injecter de l'argent dans leur économie le dimanche. Ça veut dire aussi abandonner nos nouvelles taxes sur l'essence, qui font fuir les consommateurs vers les États-Unis ; ça veut dire aussi donner la possibilité à la classe moyenne de mettre son argent ailleurs que dans les impôts et les taxes, et abandonner tout projet de réforme de la

Loi sur les relations de travail.

BUDGET DEBATE

Mr Allan K. McLean (Simcoe East): My statement is directed to the House leader. It concerns the first time in the history of Ontario that there's been no opportunity to have a full debate on a provincial budget in this Legislature. The only opportunity opposition members will have for debate will occur when the individual pieces of budgetary legislation come before us in the Legislature some time in the near future.

The NDP members keep telling people that they have an open and accessible government. They say they have an understanding about wealth creation, they say they have an approach to revenue and expenditure and they say they are concerned about integrity and credibility. That is not true. That's certainly not what the people are telling me. It's their propaganda program that they're running.

Ontario's economic difficulties are far too pressing to allow this government the luxury of playing political games, but that is exactly what the government House leader's doing by not allowing opposition members an opportunity to fully debate the April 30 budget.

It's a sad state of affairs when opposition members are prevented from bringing the concerns of their constituents to the attention of this government. Add this to the recession and the clear anti-business bias of this government and there's no question why our economy is reeling, job creators are under siege, taxpaying families are being deprived of hope and opportunity and the least fortunate in our society are being exposed to untold hardship.

Not only is the NDP government making history by not allowing a full budget debate, but it's making a bad situation worse for the people of Ontario.

RIDE FOR CANADA

Mr Larry O'Connor (Durham-York): During this time of constitutional crisis Canadians need and wish to express their affection and concern for their country and its future. What better time than during Canada's 125th anniversary? The provincial equestrian organizations across Canada have created an opportunity for Canadians to do just that. They have organized a Ride for Canada, 125 days of celebration of Canada's 125th anniversary.

The ride began February 28, 1992, from each coast of the country. Equestrians, cyclists, hikers, canoeists, skiers, snowmobilers and people of all ages are welcome to join the Ride for Canada and travel five miles along its route. On May 31, the Ride for Canada will be entering Ontario. They will travel a northern and a southern route. They'll be entering the York part of our riding on June 12, and on June 13 they will be entering the Durham part of our riding.

At the end of each day participants and members of the community will gather around a signal bonfire to sing and toast and celebrate Canada. For further information on the Ride for Canada, if any of the members want to come to see me, I can tell them how it is happening in their ridings or they can call my office for more information.

This project is a visible expression of people's affection and pride, all the peoples of Canada, and the Ride for Canada ends with participants from each coast of the country arriving in Ottawa on July 1, 1992. I encourage all members to participate in one way or another during this event.

BRONTE CREEK PROVINCIAL PARK

Mrs Barbara Sullivan (Halton Centre): The Ministry of Natural Resources has recently proposed that Bronte Creek Provincial Park be turned over to the Halton Region Conservation Authority. This request was made not for policy purposes but as a cost-saving measure, and that has been made very clear by MNR to people in my constituency, where the park is located.

Bronte Creek Provincial Park includes areas of natural and scientific features, Carolinian forest and provincially significant archaeological and historic areas. It includes natural areas for hiking, fishing and the study of our natural heritage. Within the Bronte Creek park is the Bronte Creek valley, recognized by the very ministry that wants to dispose of the park as the least disturbed and most diverse river valley along the northwestern Lake Ontario shore.

The Halton Region Conservation Authority is a fine operator of its sites and has a proven record with such areas as the Kelso Conservation Area and Crawford Lake Conservation Area, for example. However, the mandate of provincial parks is different from the mandate of conservation authorities. This should not happen. The Tory government discovered, to its peril, how people respond to the gutting of provincial parks. That the NDP is following the same road indicates that it too will soon learn how people feel about the stripping of our natural heritage when the only rationale for doing so is to find an apparently easy way to cut spending.

CHARITABLE GAMING

Mr Bill Murdoch (Grey): I have here petitions signed by several thousand concerned residents of my riding who are worried about the fate of the Owen Sound Greys junior hockey team, which desperately needs financial resources to carry on. I am directing this to the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations, because one way in which the team could raise money to assist with transportation, new equipment and education would be through 50-50 draws.

At present the minister feels that 50-50 draws should not be licensed because, when selling these tickets, the organization holding the draw cannot accurately forecast the exact amount of prize, simply because it does not know how many tickets will be sold. But it seems to me and to the supporters of my local hockey team and to many other worthwhile organizations that use the money from these draws for charitable purposes that the minister should consider allowing this form of fund-raising.

These groups need assistance to continue their valuable community services. Surely now, in these difficult economic times when there is little public money for grants for these purposes, the minister and her government should seriously look at sanctioning 50-50 draws. I suggest to the minister that perhaps if these draws were held in a manner which would encourage more accountability, she would consider allowing minor league sports teams, legions who donate to regional health centres and Canadian mental health, and churches to continue to aid and enhance their communities, not only in Grey but everywhere in Ontario.

DEAF CHILDREN'S FESTIVAL

Mr Gary Malkowski (York East): On Tuesday, May 26, 1992, the Ontario Cultural Society of the Deaf and Ernest C. Drury School for the Deaf, a provincial school for the deaf, held their first biannual Deaf Children's Festival. I wish to share with the House how much I appreciated the opportunity to attend this event that was held at the provincial school for the deaf in Milton.

Over 600 deaf children from across the province participated in the Deaf Children's Festival and deaf pride activities. Exhibitions were held in the areas of art, drama, literature and poetry, and it was a real inspiration to see these children actively learning about their own culture, the deaf culture.

The Deaf Children's Festival was established with a goal to promote a positive image of deaf people in society, an image that can be shared by deaf children as well as by their families. It also was a means of increasing public awareness through this celebration of the life and culture of deaf people.

I would urge members of the House interested in learning more about this unique culture to read a newly published book which is called The Mask of Benevolence, and I have it here with me. This was written by Dr Harlan Lane, and it's a moving, informative book about the modern deaf culture and the deaf community's struggle to gain recognition of its language and culture. As my T-shirt says, "It's Time for Deaf Pride Now."

BROADCAST OF QUESTION PERIOD

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): In 1985 the government of Ontario, with the support of all political parties represented in the provincial Legislature, implemented the televised broadcasting of the proceedings of the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

The electronic Hansard allows the public of our province to view without editing, without

interpretation and without interruption all activities that take place in the legislative chamber, thereby allowing viewers to see not only what decisions are made but how they are reached. It provides Ontario residents with an opportunity to view question period, all debates and the processing of legislation and to become aware of the variety of views that are expressed by MPPs.

Those who have access to the Ontario parliamentary network through cable television are able to tune in to legislative proceedings; however, those without this service must rely upon TVO to view at least the question period.

Unfortunately shortly after the election of the NDP government, but incidentally I'm sure, the provincial question period was relegated to midnight or later, thereby denying many Ontarians the chance to see their government held accountable by the opposition.

It is my hope that TVO will review its scheduling decision and permit Ontario viewers to see their elected representatives deal with important issues of the day at a more convenient hour, one which is earlier in the viewing day and more accessible to a greater number of interested citizens.

LABOUR LEGISLATION

Mr David Turnbull (York Mills): This week I sponsored a panel discussion on the government's proposed changes to the Labour Relations Act. The six members on the panel represented both sides of the issue and gave excellent presentations. The discussion that followed was very lively and informative. My constituents expressed a great deal of alarm about the implications for both employees and employers if these proposals become law.

Mandating automatic unionization on workers when only 50% plus one have signed and without a secret ballot vote means certification would be granted when 49% of the employees do not wish to join the union. By eliminating petitions, those who have signed union cards lose the opportunity for sober second thought.

The extreme shift of power from management to unions will mean less investment in Ontario and fewer jobs. Many constituents think this is wrong. The existing playing field is already slanted in favour of the unions against the 96% of Ontario firms that are small business. Small business will not be able to function on a playing field tilted to this degree. The Ontario economy is stagnant. We need to attract business to Ontario, not to drive it away.

My constituents gave me a message to bring to Queen's Park: This is the wrong way to bring harmony to employee-employer relationships; instead of bringing about one-sided changes, government should be working with both employees and employers on job creation and ways to increase our productivity. That way will give Ontario prosperity.

PARLIAMENTARY LANGUAGE

Mr Gordon Mills (Durham East): For my 90 seconds I haven't got a written statement because I wasn't apprised of the opportunity to speak until not 20 minutes ago. I'm going to use this time to say that as all members go back to their ridings this weekend, we should take some time and reflect upon our conduct in the House here. I think the name-calling of one another has to cease and that we have to reflect upon that. In my opinion there's absolutely no room at all in the Legislature for racist remarks or sexist remarks, and I am not alone.

I need to look at myself, because in the country I come from some of the language I'm used to using in normal conversation is unacceptable today, so I have to readjust my thoughts. I always called a woman a lady because that's the way I was brought up. I said all kinds of things that really are unacceptable.

Only last week I wrote an

article in my local newspaper condemning the racist riots and the trouble in Toronto. I really put my foot in my mouth by referring to black people as coloured people, and I was told quite rightly that that was wrong. So I have to learn, and I urge all members to come to grips with this problem and go back and reflect. Let's make this a place where we all behave much better.

ORAL QUESTIONS

UNEMPLOYMENT

Mr Gerry Phillips (Scarborough-Agincourt): My question is to the Treasurer and it pertains to the matter we've been raising for some time in the House now, and that's jobs. I would say to the Treasurer that for many of us, and I think for all of us, the situation is getting rather desperate. Perhaps the best way to highlight it is to read a letter I received that's probably not atypical. I think all of us as members receive similar letters, but it says:

"Dear Mr Phillips, MPP:

"Sir, I have been out of work since last April 1991. I just don't know what to do next. My two boys are coming back to live with me, but I've run out of funds. Hardly any food in the house. What is going on with the government -- all of them? Your staff is sending me Job Mart each week and I thank you for that, but I need to work. Is there anything you can do? Please, let me know."

I read that letter because I think each of us, as we go back to our constituencies, will face similar individuals with similar questions. My question to the Treasurer is quite simple, and it's to ask him the question the constituent asked me: "I need to work. Is there anything you can do? Please, let me know." What am I to say when I see that individual?

Hon Floyd Laughren (Treasurer and Minister of Economics): It's no surprise or no secret the young people in this province are having a very difficult time finding employment this summer. It's going to be a very tough summer; we know that. We've tried to respond as best we can, given the very tight fiscal corner we're in. I know the opposition members of the Legislature understand that. There's been no opposition member of the Legislature who has suggested that we should've run up a higher deficit or increased taxes more in order to provide more government jobs. I believe the members of the opposition appreciate that dilemma and do understand it.

Having said that, it would, of course, have been nice to have put a lot more money into job creation than we did, but on the other hand we did make a substantial commitment to jobs in this budget. That was one of the three priorities in this budget: creating jobs, maintaining essential services and keeping the deficit in check. Those were our three priorities and we've done the best we could in that regard.

I don't question the honourable member for Scarborough-Agincourt that it would've been nice to have done more, but given what we had to work with, that's all we were able to do. But I've said it before, and the Premier said it: We will be doing more.

Mr Phillips: I hope the Treasurer understood I wasn't talking about youth unemployment here. This was an individual who said his two sons were returning to live with him. I think he had been in the workforce for probably 30 years prior to his layoff, so it wasn't a youth situation.

I appreciate that we have a difference of opinion about how many jobs will be created by the budget, but to follow up, I said yesterday we will be pursuing this relentlessly until we begin to see some substantial improvement.

You will be aware, Treasurer, that if you were unemployed in 1990 the average length that you would be unemployed in this province would be about three months. If you're unemployed today, you will be out of work, on average, for six months. The situation is desperate and this letter that I read -- I dare say every member in the Legislature is getting similar letters daily.

My question to you, Treasurer, is this: Recognizing that two years ago when people were laid off or unemployed they at least felt that within three months they would be in some prospect of a job, and that it now looks like it's at least six months on average, is this what the people who are laid off with plant closures in this province have to look forward to? Or can you assure them that job prospects are improving and that they will not have to look forward to, on average, six months of unemployment?

Hon Mr Laughren: As a matter of clarification, I did misunderstand the member's question initially. I thought he was talking about youth, and I appreciate the fact that he was not.

There is no doubt that the recession has been much more difficult not just than we thought but than anybody thought, and much more prolonged and severe than the member for Scarborough-Agincourt ever dreamed as well, I assume. I assume that because all the experts were taken by surprise with this recession, and I hope he won't mind my putting him in the category of expert in this regard.

I would remind the member for Scarborough-Agincourt, though, that in this budget we did make a commitment to a substantial number of jobs. Just to remind members -- and this is not youth employment jobs I'm talking about now; I'm talking about jobs overall, as was the member opposite -- on the Jobs Ontario training fund we made a commitment of about $176 million, which will translate into 10,800 jobs, assuming the private sector picks that up. In a recession, that's going to be tough. We realize that but we very much hope they will take advantage of it.

The Jobs Ontario capital fund of $500 million will create about 9,800 jobs. The Jobs Ontario homes fund is going to create about 2,400 jobs this year, a lot more in the next couple of years as the housing starts come on stream, and the base capital spending in all the ministries will support about 67,000 jobs. That totals about 90,000 jobs.

Considering how many jobs have been lost in the private sector, that doesn't take up the gap; I appreciate that. But there is only so much the government can do when the private sector is laying off so many people.

Mr Phillips: I would remind the Treasurer that there are fewer jobs being created this year with those funds than last year and I think it is important that the viewers out there understand that.

But my question to the Treasurer is this: Last year, Treasurer, in your budget, as you recall, you said jobs will begin to be created at significant rates in midyear. That was the summer of last year. That's what you predicted in the budget, and I think many of the people of Ontario held out hope that the Treasurer knew what was going to happen; it didn't happen.

We now have this budget, Treasurer, as you know, and in this budget you say, "Job gains to resume in spring," spring of 1992. You were wrong in last year's budget, as you acknowledged, but the one sense of hope I think the people have is that "Job gains to resume in spring" will come true and that at long last we will see job creation happening at a significant rate.

My simple question to you, Treasurer, is this: You're the one who is most on top of all the statistics and all the knowledge. Can we assume, with some degree of confidence, that this budget that's only a month old is right, that we will see job gains this spring and that I can tell my constituent, when I meet with him, that it's coming, "Be patient; job gains are coming this spring"?

Hon Mr Laughren: I know the member for Scarborough-Agincourt would not want to leave the impression in the minds of members of this assembly or in the minds of people who might be watching or listening to this exchange that I or this government are the only ones who were not accurate last year in the predictions on job creation and the recovery from the recession. Everybody was wrong, because everybody predicted we were going to come out of the recession last year, both in the United States and here in Canada.

I don't think you could find an expert who didn't make that prediction, and I think you would have had to look far and wide a couple of months ago when we were drafting the budget to find anyone who didn't say the same thing this year.

I hope we're right. I hope what we say in the budget is correct. But I can tell you that I'm not the one who can flip a switch and cause the recession to end and cause people to have more hope about there being jobs for people out there. It would be nice to be able to do that, but I think the member for Scarborough-Agincourt is, if nothing else, a realist and knows full well this is not possible to do. All I can say is that the experts are still telling us we're coming out of the recession this year, and we very much hope that that's the case.

YOUTH UNEMPLOYMENT

Mr Sean G. Conway (Renfrew North): My question is also to the Treasurer. It concerns employment prospects for young people in the summer of 1992.

Is the Treasurer aware that one of the Ontario government's principal summer student employment programs, namely the northern Ontario training opportunities program, will offer 1,538 positions this summer as compared to 2,700 summer positions last year?

Hon Floyd Laughren (Treasurer and Minister of Economics): I don't have the numbers with me right at the moment, but I do know there are some programs in which there are going to be fewer students or young people employed and that there are other programs where there are going to be more people employed than last year.

I think the member refers to the northern Ontario training opportunities program. This year we are spending exactly the same amount of money we spent last year, namely $3 million, on that program. If the member would like me to -- I know there are time restrictions in question period -- I could go through the entire list of programs for young people which indicate the kind of commitment this government has made to youth employment, but I'll await his supplementary.

Mr Conway: My point again is that a number of the government's principal summer employment programs are offering fewer jobs this year, when the youth unemployment rate is expected to be at 18%, than were offered last year. According to the government's own information, Nortop will offer some 1,538 positions this year. That's roughly half of what was offered last year.

Contrary to what the Treasurer said here yesterday, the government of Ontario's summer offering at Ontario Place will be down, not up, from last year. I double-checked with Ontario Place. Ontario's job offering at Ontario Place this year will be 537 positions as compared to 672 positions last year. The Environmental Youth Corps is going to be hiring slightly fewer people this summer than last year.

My question to the Treasurer is: How can he justify, in this summer of 1992, major programs like Nortop, like the tree-planting program -- which, I remind him, will offer 1500 fewer positions than last year -- in the face of the kind of student unemployment his own Ministry of Labour is predicting?

Hon Mr Laughren: I want to correct the member for Renfrew North on his Ontario Place numbers. I believe he is inaccurate.

Where the member for Renfrew North is making a mistake is in assuming all the jobs at Ontario Place are by the Ontario government or through Ontario Place. For the first time, this year the private sector will be hiring more people at Ontario Place; as a matter of fact, there will be an increase in employment. I know the member doesn't want to be totally preoccupied with Ontario Place, but last year there were 1,272 at Ontario Place and this year there are going to be 1,393, so there is going to be an increase in the jobs at Ontario Place this year.

I would be quite happy to go through the numbers if the member wishes me to, but I can tell the member that with government programs we are offering jobs to about 70,000 young people this summer. That is a major commitment to jobs for youth in this province. Of course with the recession the way it is and with the private sector not hiring the wa