Volume 2 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 2nd Session VERBATIM REPORT Tuesday, April 3, 1973 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 44

April 3, 197~, Tape 975, Pe1e 1 -- apb The House met at 3:00 p.m. ~r. Speaker in the Ch~1r. f-fR • . SPEAKER: Before c01!'1111encing today's proceedings, I have been asked by the Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation to announce that two visitors from his district, Miss Rachel Dumont and her sister Alice - ~iss Rachel Dumont is the Carnival Queen 1973 in Labrador City. I trust that your stay here will be interesting and informative. PETITIONS: ----- ~ON. E.M.ROBERTS (LEADER OF THE OPE._OSITION): ~r. Speaker, on Firday, Budget Day, I gave notice that I would be raising a question of privilege.

I regret that I was not able to raise it yesterday but I was unable to have the Hansards in time for that and obviously the Hansard was relevant to the point. I now raise it at the first opportunity I have. It would not have been the right thing to have raised it on Friday. The question, Sir, is founded upon the fact that the Premier (I regret he is not in his seat but we are unfortunately accustomed to that) on Thursday evening past in dealinr, with the resignation from the cabinet and from the House of the former member for Hennitage and the former Minister of Fisheries, Mr.

Cheeseman. in so doing, the Premier misrepresented grossly the proceedings of the House. I submit, Sir, that that is a breach of the privileges of the House. One can find adequate citations in Beauchesne to support that contention. The Premier's statement was made outside the Chamber, Sir. I believe it was made at a press conference held on the eight floor of this building, it was not made in the House. His statement as reported in Friday's issue of the ''F.vening Telegram" and similar statements were carried on CBC in the ''Here and Now Programme" on Thursday evening. Thf!

Premier's statement and I am now quoting from the ''EveninJ? Telegram'' ''Only thrE'e doys ap;o," said the Premier. "Mr. Cheeseman was referred to in the lerislature as 'the most incompetent minister the Government of Newfoundland has sren.' Thifl is the sort of thing that will drive good 3430

April 3, 1973, Tape 975, Pa~e 2 -- apb men, men who do not have to put up with it, out of politics.r' Hr. ~oores did not identify the individual who attacked Mr. Cheeseman in the House, although Mr. Neary was quoted as calling the former Fisheries Minister incompetent. It ioea on then to point out that Mr. Neary, the honourable member for Bell Island,in fact did not say that the former gentleman from Hermitage, Mr. Cheeseman, was incompetent. I now have the Hansard of that portion of the debnte and none of the members, Mr.

Speaker, who spoke in that debate, none,not one, not any 1 not either, not any said that the minister was incompetent. There were remarks made about the fact that he was disillusioned, downhearted, dejected, disappointed, that the Department of Fisheries had been downgraded. There were also remarks made that the minister, as he then was, was the weakest minister in the cabinet at this moment and it is the weakest department at this moment. Again, those statements were made. We have the situation, Mr.

Speaker, where the Premier of this province has breached the privilege of this House by going outside the House and misrepresenting what went on in the chamber. He misrepresented it either deliberately or carelessly. I am in no position to say which but I submit that since this is a question affecting the privileges of the House, not of any individual member as such but all of us in the House, we have a right, Sir, to have our proceedings adequately reported and accurately reported. That right is especially great when a man who is leader of the Homi:e,the Premier of the Province,is doing the reportinp,.

I submit therefore, Sir 1 that there is a question of priviler,e. I submit therefore that on that basis the Premier should "1ithdraw his statement and should indicate to the House that he regrets having mnde his statement. I am prepared to helievc that he made the statement carelessly. I am not prepared at this atar,e at least to say that he made it maliciously. I submit that there is a question of 3431

April 3, 1973, Tape 975, Page 3 -- apb privilege and I submit that action should follow. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable mrmher's arr,lll'lent has been heard «ncl it will be taken under advisement. I hope to be able to advise the House on it tomorrow. MR. A. SENIOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave at this time to present a petition on behalf of the residents of Grand Falls and Windsor. This petition was circulated in the area by the Grand Falls Rod and Gun Club and contains nearly 900 nmnes.

The purpose of the petition is to inform the government of the feelings of the people in Grand Falls District in regard to the issuance of caribou licenses. As we know, our three main herds are located on the Buchana Plateau which is area (2), the Grey River Area (3), LaPoile Area (1). In at least one of these areas, Sir, as mamy as seventy percent of the licenses issued are going to nonresident hunters. I further understand that in area (4), the sale of licenses to nonresident hunters has been discontinued this year.

The reason for this apparently waa because there was a tremendous demand from the residents in this area. The people of Grand Falls District are concerned that the same thinking was not applied to areas (1, 2 and 3) when there were over 800 people last year who could not get licenses in these areas. It is further requested, Sir, that I present this petition to this honourable House prior to the date for the draw for licenses which is April 4, 1973, which is tomorrow. They are requesting, Sir, that this date be advanced until the prayer of this petition can be considered and dealt with fairly.

It is further requested that the residents of Newfoundland be given preference over nonresidents in the awarding of big game licenses. It is further requested that the present system of awarding moose and caribou licenses be altered commencing immediately, so that licenses issued to nonresidents not exceed twenty p~rcent of_ the total licenses available in any given area. Sir, as I said before, this petition~ 3432

April 3. 1973 Tape 9i6 IB-1 is signed by almost 900 residents. The petition was circulated for a very short period of time. From the representation that I have had in the past year from the Grand Falls district, I believe, Sir, if sufficient time were available to circulate this petition,it would have been signed by a many as five or six thousand people. It has been a matter of great concern in this area for some tiJ!le. There is another problem in addition to the issuance of licenses,which relates to licenses issued to huntin~ lodge operators.

Apparently this year because some of the regulations have been changed, some of the existing boundaries have been changed and some of the lodge owners in the Grand Falls District this year will not be able to operate. Sir, anyone who is familiar with these lodge owners know that they receive bookings from people in the U.S. and the ~ainland of Canada as earlv as January each year. Apparently they were not made aware of these changes. They have now been placed at a :onsiderable disadvantage.

They have spent a great deal of time, they have gone to a considerable expense preparing for the hunting season and I am informed that it will create a considerable hardship and loss of income to them this year. So, once a~ain, Sir, I am requesting on their behalf that the draw for licenses tomorrow be cancelled until this petition can he considered and reviewed. I ask that, Sir, not only on behalf of the people who have signed this petition but in fact on behalf of the approximately 20,000 neople who I re­ present in this House. I request that this petition be tabled and referred to the appropriate department.

MR. S.A. NEARY: I rise to support the petition presented by the memher for rrand Fnlls on hehalf of 900 residents in the Grand Falls, Windsor area who wAnt the carihou licenRing re~ulationa chan~ed. 3433

April 3, 1973 'Iape no. 977 Page l - M1IW It 1• uotortunata, Hr. Speaker, that the honourable 11111mber left it until today to present the petition- I understand that the honourable member did not receive the petition until recently but the announcement has already been made on radio and television (I am not sure if it has been in the newspapers) that the draw will take place tomorrow.

I only hope that the member is s~ccessful in getting the minister to postpone the draw for caribou licences until this matter is straightened out. 'Ihis is a very controversial matter in Central Newfoundland, Sir, and I think a lot of people in this province are concerned about it. I bad another request recently from the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, Local 974 in Buchaoa,on the aame matter.

They said that they would like to see a ba~ on American hunters who come to ~ur province and destroy our game animals. 'Ihey destoy our animals by the thousands just for the trophies and leave the meat to spoil. People in Central Newfoundland, Sir, and in other parts of the province are very concerned about this and we support the prayer of the petition and we trust that the minister responsible will be able to defer the caribou licence draw,that was supposed to take place tomorrow,until some future date. MR. G. M. WILSON: Hr.

Speaker, I rise to present a petition on behalf of the people of the Town Council of Bay Roberts and Coley's Point. 'Ihe prayer of this petition is to seek the upgrading of Klondike Road which connect  Coley's Point with Bay Roberts. There had been a fatal accident there about three years ago and there this winter there has been another accident which occurred. Over this past three years there have been several accidents. While I have this petition in my possession, I think myself that it should be placed on the table and referred to the department to which it relates.

The Town of Bay Roberts have already received on capital works programme, since this petition had been put out, $50,000 to cover 3434

April 31 1973 Tap• no. 977 Paga 2 this project. I am happy, Mr. Speaker, to present this petition on behalf of the people of Coley's Point and Bay Roberts. I am alao happy to kn01J that they have the amount of $50,000 on the capital works project; $40,000 for labour and $10,000 for materials. I hope that this could be said for every district in the island of this province, not only for the Community of Bay Roberts. W• would be much better off to abide and work for those that need it and also services to communities to which we belong. Thank you.

MR, NEARY: I think the honourable member made a good point there when he said that this would make a good make-work project. I agree with him,Sir .I trust that the Minister of Finance is not as inflexible as he might be over this year's estimates and will be able to find the money - MR, SPEAKER: Order please! The honourable member - Standing Order 97: "There shall be no debate on a petition ,unless the House has it under consideration. MR. NEARY: What I was saying, Mr.

Speaker, is that I trust that the Minister of Finance will be able to find the resources to upgrade and pave this road, to be able to grant the prayer of the petition. That is all I am saying, Sir. We support the petition. HON, G. R, OTTENHEIMER (Minister of Education) Mr. Speaker, if I may make an announcement - MR. A. SENIOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg lea~e to present another petition on behalf of the Local Improvement District of Buchana. This petition has been signed by some 1,249 residenu of the Towns of Buchans, Millertown, Buchana Junction and Howley.

The prayer of the petition is to request the government to construct a road from Buchana to Howley or to complete the approximate twenty miles of road left to be constructed to the West Coast. A1J we,all know, Sir, the people of Buchana have for many years lived with the possibility that the mine there would close down, thus 3435

April 3, 1973 Tape no. 977 Page 3 leaving the town a virtual ghost town. The latest projection are that the mine has a life expectancy of about five years. In vi• of that, Sir, it i  felt that it is time for the government to direct their attention to the future of this area. It is felt that vith a road constructed to the West Coast and also to connect with the road being constructed from Burgeo, that the Buchana Area could become a service centre for people travelling through this area.

Ia the future,whea the road could be upgraded to acceptable standards, the CN bus service, in addition to the service which exists now, could be diverted through this area, providing a much needed service to this area and also saving a considerable travelling distance for the people travelling across Newfoundland. It would also mean, Sir, that there would be cheaper freight service,by using this roadrto many thousands of people in Newfoundland, not only people living in the Buchana or Central , Newfoundland Area.

Also in the Red Indian Lake Area, we have one of Newfoundland'• greatest historic and scenic spots which could easily be developed into one of the provinces great tourist attraction areas. Sir, the people of this area have always been an independent and proud people and have made a great contribution to the Provincial Treasury. I feel, Sir, that it is not unreasonable that they request the government to direct attention to this area because, Sir, if the town should close down, the people are not interested in living on welfare.

Already the people of this town have taken the initiative to form a development association to aae the potential for development in the area. All they are asking, Sir, is that the government show a little concern and give them a little co-operation. I take great pleasure, Sir, in supporting this petition and request that it now be tabled and referred to the department to which it relates, 3436

April 3, 1973 Tape no. 977 Page 4 HON. G. R. OTTENHEIMER(Min. of Education): Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to support this petition of the people of Buchana. Buchans, of course, has had a number of problems lately. I am happy to say that the two schools are open today, the furnaces were installed last night and that they are now open. On the point of order, Mr. Speaker, honourable gentlemen frequently asked questions about it. I must retract it, Mr. Speaker, it was out of order for me to announce that the two schools are now open and that the boilers are hooked up.

It was out of order and I tetract it but I cannot disconnect the boilers. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! The honourable member is out of order. He has admitted that he was out of order. However, it is apparently a circuitous device to make a statement for which leave was denied. It is not a procedure on which the Chair will frown a great deal today. It is not to be encouraged in the future. MR. P.S.THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the petition presented by the hon. member for Grand Falls on behalf of the residents of Buchans, Millertown, Buchans Junction and Howley. Mr.

Speaker, the reconstruction and I trust eventually the pavement of this road, which will possibly br reconstructed by the present administration and paved by the incoming Liberal Administration, within another couple or three years, this will undoubtedly cut down the time involved in transporting the goods from Western Newfoundland to Eastern Newfoundland and therefore it will be an economic boost to the economy of Eastern Newfoundland. It will give our friends on the West eoast and of course us in rrturn a shorter distance to travel back and forth from the West to East Coast of Newfoundland. I am quite sure, Mr.

Speaker, that the Minister of Transportati~n and Communications will do all in his power to find enough money 3431

April 3, 1973 Tape no. 977 Page 5 within his preaeot eatimate , small u they may be, to have aome work don on thi• road this year. Of course, Hr. Speaker, if in hi eati-tea there 1 no aoney, maybe the minister could try to hurry up the negotiations vith Ottawa and come to an agreement such as the previous government had, as far as the reconstructing and paving the trunk roads whicb,as ve: all know,are in very bad need of reconstruction and paving.

Also while the minister is in Ottawa, I trust that be will talk to the people there and come to some kind of an agreement like the previous Smallwood Administration had for reconstructing and improving the Trans Canada HighMay. There are now in the province at least two aectiona of the Trans Canada 3438

April 3, 1973 , Tape 978 Highway whjch are not up to Trane Canada standards. Mr. Speaker, we on this side wholeheartedly support the petition presented. I am disappointed he did not shut me up. MR. SPEAKER: Before calling the next order of the day I would like to direct hon. members to page eighty-four,

article ninety-one, subsection (1) of Beauchesne~concerning the matter of the ministerial statement which reads as follows: "'When a minister makes a statement on government policy or ministerial administration, either under routine proceedings, between two orders of the day or shortly before the adjournment of the House, it is now firmly established that the Leader of the Opposition or the Chiefs of recognized groups are entitled to ask explanations and make a few remarks, but no debate is then allowed under any Standing Order." So the latter part of that subsection would be irrelevant to the particular point which we are discussing.

The hon. the Minister of Education would be quite in order to make a ministerial statement between presenting petitions and presenting reports of standing and select connnittees. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, Your Honour has this perplexity once again. I really do not know what brought this up. I have not heard a point of order raised and I know Your Honour is quite in order to orginate points on Your Honour's own hook as it were but I mean that is fair enough. Beauchesne applies only when our own orders or precedents are silent.

As a matter of fact that precise precedent to which Your Honour just referred, which Your Honour just read,hae been held time and time again in this House not to apply. Although I will give credit where credit is due, the present government do permit the practise of comments from the other side, their precedessors did not,rightly or wrongly but they did not. The hon. Minister of Education asked leave to revert because the rules of our House, Sir, the precedents of our House, I do not think it is 343n JM - 1

April 3, 1973 -Tape 978 in •tanding order , are that tatements are made only when the order  of the day are called. It doe  not matter what Beauchesne says, Sir, our precedents are clear, cryatal clear and the majority can change it. The majority can vote this Houe out of existence if they wish. The hon. gentleman asked leave to revert and for my part, rightly or wrongly but within my rights as a member,! said no, in view of the harrassment, the deliberate campaign that we are witnessing to stranile debate in this House - JM - 2 MR. SPEAKER: Order plea e!

If the hon. the Leader of the Opposition would permit, the point raised by the Chair was merely one of information as to what was concluded in Beauchesne and it would appear to be relevant. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition is entering into a long debate on a matter of opinion from the Chair for which there is no need for him to make this statement. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, Your Honour trotted out this ruling and there are five hundred pages in Beauchesne any one of which Your Honour could have read from, any one of which would have been as relevant as this.

What I started by asking was what - I mean the hon. gentleman asked leave. We refused leave, rightly or wrongly I refused the unanimous consent,and then Your Honour reads a citation from Beauchesne. Now was there a point of order? Is Your Honour making a ruling? What are you up to? That is what I am asking. I am looking for guidance if you wish and I am quite deadly serious. I respect the Chair, Mr. Speaker, as much as any member in this House but the Chair in this House or anywhere else gets the respect it deserves, no more and no less.

Now all I ask is if Your Honour would tell us apropos of what was this interesting little reference to Beauchesne meant. MR. SPEAKER: A ~ratuitous comment of the Chair. MOTIONS: HON. T.A. HICKHAN(MlNISTER OF JUSTICE): Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the hon. the Minister of A~riculture and Forests I give notice that I" will 3440

April 3, 1973 , Tape 978 on tomorrow nek lenve to introduce a bill, "An Act To Revi e And Conolt,h1te The L11w WI th R@,.pect To The Marketing or Natural Pro'1uct11," and r p;fve notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to JM - 3 introduce a bill, "An Act To Repeal The Department of Labrador Affairs Act." HON. C.W. DOODY(MINISTER OF INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT): Hr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave of this hon. House to introduce a bill, "An Act To Ratify, Confirm And Adopt An Indenture Entered Into Between The Government, Newfoundland Steel

(1968) Company Limited And Lundri~ans Limited With Respect To The Tennination Of The Agreement Forming The

Schedule To The Government-Newfoundland Steel

(1968) Company Limited-Lundrigans Limited (Agreement) Act, 1969, And To Make Statutory Provision Respecting Hatters Connected Therewith." MR. ROBERTS: That is the

short title, is it? MR. DOODY: That is the

short title of the bill, Your Honour. HON. DR. A.1. ROWE(MINISTER OF HEALTH): Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave in this House to present a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Health and Public Welfare Act." HON. L.D. BARRY(MINISTF.R OF MINES A."ID ENERGY): Hr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Ratify, Confirm And Adopt An Agreement Made Between The Government And Kennco Explorations(Canada) Limited." ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations.

I would like to ask the minister if he would inform the hon. House what the government's policy is on compulsory arbitration as a method in settlinr, labour disputes in the province. HON. W.G. DAWE(MINISTER OF MANPOWER AND INDUSTRIAL RF.l.ATIONS): I think the hon. member is well aware as are all the rest of us here in this House that we do not have any compulsory arbitration. 3441

April 3, 1973 Tape 978 JM - 4 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. I ask the minister vhat the policy of the government was. The minister has already made a statement outside the House. Would the minister care to clarify the public statement he made outside the House? HR. DAWE: I was asked if we were considering it. We are considering all kinda of things. We can talk about that and ao on, the pros and cons. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Provincial Affairs and Environment.

In view of the fact that we are on the verge of embarking upon a second oil refinery in Placentia Bay could the minister inform this House if there have been an ecology study carried out in the area? If not,is there one being carried? If not,will there be one carried out? HON. T.V. HICKEY(MINISTER OF PROVINCIAL AFFAIRS AND ENVIRONMENT): Mr. Speaker, I will need some time to take that question under advise­ ment and come up with the answer for the hon. gentleman. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, all I need is just a simple answer. The minister must know if there is one being carried out or not. MR.

HICKEY: To a point of order, Mr. Speaker, - MR. THOMS: Point of order, ~o away with you. MR. HICKEY: I will give the hon. gentleman the information if he wants it. Does he want to be bluffed or does he want the facts? MR. THOMS: Just yes or not, that is all I am askinR. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bonavista North has the right to ask a question and the minister has given an acceptable reponse. The hon. member for Bonavista North might put hie question on the order paper. MR. NF.ARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Public Works - AN HON. MEMJIF.R: Order! Order! MR.

NEARY: Order what? Ham and eggs. Mr. Speaker, I would like to 3442

April 3, 1973 Tape 978 aak the Minister of Public Works what action if any his department ha.a taken on a request from the Newfoundland Association of Public Employees to have the reserve parking abolished around the Confederation Building. HON. H.R.V. EARLE(MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND SERVICES): Mr. Speaker, I have no such request at the moment. I have no such request. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the acting Premier and l believe it is the Minister of Justice.

I asked the minister two or three days ago if he could inform this House when the Cook Report was to be tabled and he said he would look into the situation for me. So I am wondering if he has any information at this time. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture will be back in his place hopefully before the end of this week and certainly by and at that time he will be in a position to report to this House. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question for the Minister of Public Works.

Is the minister aware that representatives of Branch 9 of the Newfoundland Association of Public Employees met with the minister's deputy minister on March 12, 1973 concerning reserved parking around Confederation Building and had a second meeting on March 16, 1973 with the Assistant Deputy Minister of Public Works? Is the minister also aware that a deadline has been set on getting an answer on this matter of April 16 of the present month? Is the minister aware of these facts, Mr. Speaker? MR. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, the answer is no. MR. DOODY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to table the answer to question 116 asked by the hon. member for White Bay South on the ord~r pnper of March 7. I would also like to redirect a number of questions which have been directed to me by the member for White Ray South. First on the order paper of March 28 there is question n11mber 200 about the electrification of Petit Forte that is for the Minister of Mine.a and Ener~y. Question number 201 3443 .JK - 5

April J, 1973 Tape 979 IB-1 and 202, 203, 204, 205, 206 and 212 on the Order Paper of March 30th. These have all to be directed to the departments that are responsible for them. I have no knowledge of the answers. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. DOODY: At the present time, yes. If you redirect the others. MR. W. ROWE: Is the honourable minister redirecting or is he requiring leave. I want an answer to redirect. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, if I may rise on a point of order. I do not think these questions need to be redirected as such. If I may be allowed to explain what happened.

It is,these questions were asked ,of the Minister of Economic Development as the portfolio then was. At that time, Sir, rural electrification and tourism were under the Economic Development Department. Now, with restructuring - and this is a generic point really, Mr. Speaker, because there will be a number of questions in this - with the restructuring exercise these departments of course have been sundered. There is now a ~inister of Tourism and accordingly the old tourist development division of the Economic Development Department has been transfered.

I might add,as my colleague has just told, we were advised by the officals of the House - we sought council on this, Sir - to put questions on the Order Paper addressed to the minister because really until Monday of this week there was a minister of Economic Development. There was no ?Uni!Jter of Tourism, no Minister of Industrial Development until the legislation became effective. Now there are a number of questions in the same position,! would suggest, Sir, that Your Honour may wish to consider merely ruling that they are readdressed. They were put on the Order Paper properly.

We sought advise of Your Honour's officals who said to put them on addressed to the ministers who are responsible as of the time they are asked. If the ~overnment choose to switch responsibilities, that is fair enough hut the ministers should take note and answer them. I think that is a reasonable request and perhaps Your Honour 3444

April 3, 1973 Tape 979 IB-2 , wants to take it under advisement. That is fine. If not, perhaps Your Honour could rnerelv take notice of it and ask the ministers to govern themRelves ~ccordinP,]y. HR. SPEAKER: The point of the honourable the Leader of the Opposition is well taken. It is the procedure which we will follow. HON. L.D. BARRY: (~NISTER OF MINES AND ENERGY): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table an answer in reply to question No. 200 asked by the honourable member from White Bay South. The answer is that there will be an amount sufficient to provide a diesel plant in Petit Forte in the 1973 estimates. MR.

ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, while we are on that. During the Interim Estimates with respect to the Energy and Mines Department I asked about rural electrification with respect of St. Carrolls. The honourable Rentleman said that he did not have the answer. That is fair enough but he said that he would take it up with the appropriate officals and have the answer. I wonder if he has the answer now. That was a fortni~ht or so ago. MR. BARRY: I will get it for you. ~. IOBERT~: If the minister could let me know, I would be grateful but if not, I will wait on the estimates.

On motion that the House go into Committee of the Whole on Supply. Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. CHAIR~AN: Hea~ (5), Manpower and Industrial Relations. '1-'P. ROBERTS: Mr. Chainnan, does the minister wish to open with a statement? Okay, that is fine. Well, I do not so much at this stage wish to ask a question as to try to get to the bottom of a very perplexing situation. I refer to the policy of this administration with respect to collective bargaining in particular but in general to the whole area of labour relation. I was rather hoping the minister might have a statement of policy. lie does not.

At least he did not begin with one. We may coax one out of him. I hope so. Certainlv we shall try. 3445

April 3, 1973 Tape 979 IB-3 Now, Mr. Chairman, the only statement of policy of which I am aware, which sets forth the policy of the present administration with resnect to labour relat1ona generally - there may have been one issued during the October election - but there was the statement made by the minister's predecessor, the honourable gentleman from St. Barbee South,at the annual convention of the Newfoundland Federation of Labour,which met here in ~t. John's last August, the most recent annual convention of the Federation of Labour.

Now, at that meeting - there was some considerable interest in it because the Premier had undertaken to appear and at the last minute,as is so often his way, had cancelled out and there was a considerable furor. Indeed, I believe the Premier of the Province was censured by the Confederation of Labour, censured quite strongly. They were quite upset that he had not honoured them by appearing but rather he had sent his colleague, the then Minister of Labour. Now, the present minister cannot be faulted for that. He at that stage was Minister of Supply and Services in those Elysian days.

We have since come down somewhat in that field and he has gone up to be Minister of Manpower. In that statement read by his predecessor there were quite a number of co11D11itments made in respect of legislative action, soMe of them arising from the Cohen Commission Report,others of them arising just from the general policy statement. Mr. Chairman. I serve notice now that there are eleven members on the other side, the rules of the committee say there most be fourteen, I am prepared to call a quorum call at any point when there are not fourteen men on the other side.

The rules say that I may leave and any other member may leave. We are discussing the expenditure of public funds, Sir. There are thirty-one gentlemen eligible to sit on that side. I am sorry, thirty because Your Honour is not in that position. Your Honour is above the fray. If there are not fourteen, we will have a quorum call. I am not tryinr; to interrupt the i:ommi ttee hut the.re are thirty member'! over 3446

Aprtl 3, 1973 Tape 979 IB-4 there. We have a good representation of ministers but if they are not interested enough in the expenditure process to be here,let us have a quorum call, Mr. Chairman, please. Let there be fourteen in this House. AN HONOURABLE MF.MBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Oh yes we are. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Quorum call. MR. CHAIRMAN: There is a quorum. 'MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am grateful to know that there is a quorum. I hope we shall at all times during the estimates procedure. Mr.

Chairman, do I have the right to make my remarks without the heckling from the crackles on the other side? MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable the Leader of the Opposition is quite correct The honourable Leader of the Ol)position has the floor and has the right to be heard in silence. MR. ROBF.RTS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Now, as I was saying - HON. T.V. HICKEY: (~INISTER OF PROVINCIAL AFFAIRS AND ENVIRONMENT): I am sorry if I have interrupted the honourable gentleman. The only question I raise is, Are not members on the other Ride members of this House?

Do they not constitute a quorum with the number on this side or are honourable gentlemen allowed to just vacate the Chamber? I would like a ruling, Your Honour. MR. OIATRMAN: YeR, honourable gentlemen are allowed to leave the House at any time. Yes, that is correct. MR. ROllf.RTS: Mr. Chairman, I hoJ'e the press will take notice because as we say it was the honourable gentlemen when they were over here who invented this technique ~nd perfected it. We have tried to learn it. I am not saying that it is right. 'MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Now, as I was saying - I ar,ree that there should be fourteen here. This is the heart and guts of the whole parliamentary process, ~r. Chairman. 3447

April 3, 1973 ,Tape No. 980 NM - 1 MR. ROBERTS : We have kept up our share during the debate. One fourth of us are here now, at least another fourth are standing outside. Considering that my colleague from Labrador North is in Labrador attending a meeting of the project group, considering that my colleague from Fogo buried his mother yesterday, I suppose we can understand him not being here. The gentleman from Twillingate is at home on urgent family business and the five of us other than that are here. Mr.

Chairman, the ministry, through the lips of the then Minister of Labour,at the Federation of Labour Conference made a major statement of their labour relations policy,and may I say there were some very good points in it. I believe that the then minister, speaking for the ministry, undertook to sponsor legislation that would end the exparte injunction in labour relations matters. This is something which every union member of Newfoundland and I suppose every union member across Canada would welcome because these injunctions - injunctions have a purpose, and exparte injunctions have a purpose.

But the way in which exparte injunctions are being used in labour relations matter  in this province and throughout generally is as a weapon of strike-breaking, as a means of harrassing. If a strike is legal, then it may go ahead. But one gets the exparte injunctions on the picketing. If a strike is illegal then it should not go ahead. Of course it should not. We have a royal commission investigation on that now and I have no doubt will report back to say that when a strike is illegal it is illegal, it is unlawful or wildcat,to use the common tenn.

The ministry undertook to sponsor legislation to abolish these injunctions. We have not seen it yet. Indeed, Sir, we have not seen - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: I mean,I asked the minister to make a policy statement. 3448

April 3, 1973 Tape No. QRO NM - 2 MR, ROBERTS: The Minister of Finance says it is being drafted. Well the ministry have been in office now a year and some, this is the second session, the third really, but the second since the election of March 24, 1972 which they have appeared. Last year tmderstandably they did not have a great deal of time to sponsor a great deal of legislation, Much of the legislation which came through last year was legislation that had evolved in the normal course. The point I am making, Mr. Chairman, is that we do not have any legislation this year either.

The House is not ove~ true. lt may go on for weeks or months yet. The session has not ended but we are now two months into the session. We have had notice given of ninety or one hundred pieces of legislation. Maybe as many as six of those have been substantial pieces of legislation. None of them effecting the Department of Labour. as it was, or the Department of Manpower and Industrial Relations,with the sole exception of the act with respect to employment,where one has a substantial lay-off there must be four, eight or twelve weeks' notice for termination.

That is a very good piece of legislation, needed.not noticeably progressive nor forward looking, lt has been done in other jurisdictions but it has now been done in Newfoundland and it is a good thing. Other than that we have heard nothing from the department. Then far more seriously, and I would ask the minister if he would tell us where the matter stands, not just exparte injunctions but the whole spectrum of legislation, what is coming out of the Cohen Report. We had the Cohen Report t11blecl, a great mnssive document.

Then we were told by the minister, and I say again not the present minister by his predecessor,"the sins of the father are visited upon the children even to the third and fourth generations," we were 344~

April 31 1973 lfap• No. 980 NM - 3 MR. ROBERTS: told by the minister that he had et up connittee  and called a pre conference  with great glory, and Information Newfoundland announced it 1 that we were having a committee of employer representatives and a committee of employee representatives, and that they would look at the Cohen Report and that they would then make recommendations and from that the government would, after consideration, produce legislation. We have had the Cohen Report for over a year now, Sir. The committees presumably have been at work. We have not heard anything out of them since.

Information Newfoundland seems to have disappeared from the face of the earth as far as that aspect of the Labour Department is concerned. All we get from them now ar• these nice little notice  about settlement of trikes or appointments of conciliation officers. All very fine but nothing more to it. Then we get the Minister of Finance's Budget Speech in which there is held out a definite threat to those bargaining collectively with the government.either as employer or as paymaster_ because in the case of the teachers and in the case of the ho,pital workers the government are not the employer.

The employer in each case are boards. The government are the paymasters. The government provide the cash and the government have the final wor•. They must have it. They should have it on the salary rates to be paid. So we have the threat.the stated threat in the Budget Speech and no honeved words about the necessity to say_ lt is not new. It has been said before. Indeed when we were the administration it was said and we were laughed at. Saying it does not make it true and saying it again does not make it any less true or any more untrue. It is quite true. We can only have in Newfoundland what we can afford.

That is straight­ forward.

April 3, 1973 ,Tape No. 980 NM - 4 MR. ROBERTS! But the way in which it was stated, the context, the whole message delivered by the government, the Minister of Finance was their ·mouthpi4:ce, but by the government, by the ministry, was to the civil service and to the teachers and to the firemen and to the police, not to the doctors. The doctors waltzed in and got their raise and off they want. We did not hear any talk then. We see $1.1 million increase in the Medicare vote. I do not know what it was all for. We are told $800,000 of it is for the 300 doctors on fee-for-service in this province.

Are there 300 at present? About 300. That is $2,500 each. That is not bad, 4.7 per cent, that is fine. That just shows how high they were if an average of $2,500 is less than five per cent. That shows that they were making twenty times that,which of course is $50,000 each. AN HON. MEMBER: British Columbia gave 11.7 per cent. MR. ROBERTS: Right, British Columbia gave 11.7 per cent. Good for British Columbia, bully for British Columbia, but we are not the Government of British Columbia, we are the Government of Newfoundland. Of course they have an ?IDP Government out there.

They had a Social Credit Government until the recent election. DR. ROWE: Do you want our doctors to go to British Columbial MR. ROBERTS: Do I want our doctors to go to British Columbia? BritiAh r.olumbia has the highest doctor-patient ratio in Canada. Maybe they are going to get more, and if doctor  are concerned only with money, if we have come to the !tage in the medical world where doctors are concerned only with money, then we have come to a pretty snd state. I will deal with the Minister of Health on his estimates because I think that we have a - MR. MURPHY: A threat. MR. ROBERTS: A threat be darned.

The honourable gentleman from Halifax has let the Nova Scotian air get to him again. The gentleman from Malawi is back. Threat, threat, threat - listen to him. He does not ever. believe it himself, ~r , Chairman, let alone - 3451

April 3, 1975 Tap• No. 980 NM - 5 MR. ROBERTS: Now, as I was saying before the honourable gentleman from St. John's Centre, Halifax, and Malawi interrupted, let me come back, we have not had any statement from the minister since he has been in office as to where this legislation stands or as to what we may expect. Then we have the Budget Speech which contains in it a threat, a clear and unmistakable threat. It has been so interpreted by the employee groups at whom it was directed, a clear and unmistakable threat to do what?

Thi• - Ladies and gentlemen we have cut out a certain amount of money in the estimates, if you do not like it, if that is not enough, if you are not prepared to settle for that, then well and good you can like it or lump it, if we give you any more there will have to be tax incr•ases and you can answer to the people of Newfoundland for that. There could not be a clearer threat. There is no way in which there could be a clearer threat.

The police have been told that if they __ do not like $110,600 extra, $500 a man for 200 constables, unless we have an increase in the complement of the force, they have been told that if they do not like that $500 per man figure, they can either lump it or there will be tax increases and every policeman will go around with,on his sleeve I suppose there will be a little saying, "We got a raise and there is a tax increase." MR. CROSBIE: That is untrue and you know it. MR. ROBERTS: 'fr. Chair111an, i.t is not untrue. Well, Mr. ChaiTI11an, is Your Honour now going to play the game and enforce the rules or - MR.

CROSBIE: That is a lie, speak the truth. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I call your attention to the fact the honourable gentleman from St. John's West has used language that is perhaps unparliamentary. MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, perhaps the Minister of Finance might wish to rephrase his comments concerning the - 3452

Apdl 3, 1973 Tape No. 980 MR. CROSBIE: A terminological inexactitude. MR. CHAIRMAN: If the honourable Leader of the Opposition will permit, the honourable Leader of the opposition is debating Head 501-01 and it is quite ill order to do so and it ia quite out of order for him to be interrupted when be is making statements on that subject. NM - 6 HR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, the honoura~le gentleman fr0111 St. John'• West,with his usual 111 grace when anybody acorea a point again t him,has once again ahown himself in his true colours.

Now as I waa saying, there is a definite threat implied in the Budget, a clearly stated threat to the publie se.rvice groups - the police, the firemen, the teachers, who for this purpose are public service 3453

April 3, 1973, Tape 981, Page 1 -- apb hoapital workers who again for this purpose are public servants and to the general civil service at large. The threat is, that if they do not take what they are given and be grateful for it, there will be tax increases and by heavens they will bear the blame.

There will be painted on every fire truck: "Your S.S.A. is going up one percent to give us a raise." The policemen will carry little banners saying instead of Newfoundland Constabulary, it will say; ''Eight percent S.S.A. to give us a raise" and we will have a new course in the curriculum instruction division and the teachers, instead of opening Schools with prayers will open schools with; ''We got a raise but because of that you are going to have to pay more gasoline tax." That is disturbing enough, disturbing enough for an administration to adopt this attitude. They are in the midst of bargaining.

I think bargaining is now open with each of these groups. Negotiations are going on, offers, counteroffers going back and forth and in the middle of that process the government publicly, deliberately,(nothing careless about a prepared and printed speech it is a calculated act of policy) issue a threat and every public service negotiator now knows that he is negotiating under that threat. Most of them have chosen to disrep.ard it and so they should.

I would like the Minister of Manpower,if he would, to reaffirm and I believe he will,that this administration stands committed to free collective bar~aininst ond that this threat does not represent the policy of the administration. Furthermore .•• MR. CROSBIE: What does it represent? It is a statement in the Budget Speech. (remainder inaudible) !iR· ROBERTS_:_ Mr. Chairman, if it does represent the policy of the administration, then let them be men enough to admit it. MR. CRnSBJE: It is nots threat. -------- -- ~:...:.._R_O_~_f.BT5-:__ Mr.

Chairman, the honourable r,entleman, the Finance ~inist(!r. 1'.nows he is on tender p:round ond it is always when he is on 3454

April 3, 1973, Tape 981, Page 2 -- apb U!Tidf'lr p:rouncl ht1 turn,i hully. Al'I HOii. f'IJ'fl\l".TT : Hr. \.till dt1nl with you fn II mtnute. Thnt is right, they c11n deal with mt' fn a minutr or in an hour, Sir. The Minister of Finance is far ~ore ac~ustomed to dealing uith people in an hour than in a minute. There we are, we have a deliberate threat. Thie administration came to office, Sir, holding out that they were committed to free collective bargaining and once again they have promised much and delivered nothing. It is becoming the hallmark of the Tory r.overnrnent.

They shafted the wothers last year, they Are shafting the students this year snd the lnhour unions ~111 get it next year. If shaft •.• RON. A.J.IIURPHY (PINISTF.R OF SOfIAL_5ERVICES): (Inaudible) MR. JWDERT~ Hr. Chairman, ¥r. Chairman ••• 1-fR. CHA IRJ,.AH: Order please! MR. l'URPHY: (Inaudible) PR. ROBERTS_~_ Mr. Chairman, would the gentleman from St. John f s Centre try to abide by the rules of this House? MR. MIRPHY: Yes, but we do not have to stand for thnt kind of stuff. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, will the gentleman from St. John I s Centre, please abide by the rules? MR.

CIIAIRHAI'.: lf any of the honourable gentlemen to my left have points of order, they are requested to raise them in the customary manner and the Chair ~111 rule on them. At the present time the honourable the Leader of the Opposition appears to be quite in order. t-'R. FOBERTS: Thank you 1 Hr. Chairman. As I was sayin~. last year they shafted the mothers, this year they will shaft the students and the civil service are next in line.

If shaft is an inele~nnt word, as it is, and if it is an unparliamentary word,as I believe it is not, then I nir.ht point out that it is the very same minister whose salary "'e are now discussinr. who first broup,ht this word into the pol!tic,11 context in Newfounclla.nd,whPn he atro11ed out of the Premier's offfce one hnrpy rlny nnd lookl'd nt a w-attin~ reporter (true the 3455

April 3, 1973, Tape 981, Page 3 -- apb reporter worked for a scurrilous journal, a yellow rag or maybe the minister was having an off day, a convenient explanation for any sins of omission or commission) and said; "Boy, I know how it feels to Ret shafted _now." That s1>eaks wonders. The labour movement is finding out how it feels­ ~. DAWE: (Inaudible) ~tR.. ROBERTS_;. There is no such thing, ~r. Chairman, if the honourable gentleman wishes to ra:he a point of order, let him. MR. DAWE: I raise a point of order. HR. ROBERTS: All right. MR.

DAWE: The honourable Leader of the Opposition seems to constantly refer to that word shnfted as though it were something vulgar. If the honourable gentleman would kindly take the trouble to look up any dictionary, he will discover that to be shafted means to be hit by an arrow or a spear. MR. ROBERTS: Hr. Chairman, I did not say it was vulgar. The honourable gentleman seems to feel - I said it was inelegant and it is inelegant. It is a most inelegant phrase, because if the honourable gentleman - ~- DAWE: Webster used it. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Chairman, if the honourable gentleman cares to check a current dictionary, he will find that there is another meaning to shaft, another meaninr,. HR. DAWE: That is in the colloquial dictionary. MR. ROBERTS: Certainly nnd we all speak colloquial English. But at any rate, I am not sayin~ it is vulgar. Far be it from me to say. If a gentleman such as the minister use it, I should not think for a minute it was vulgar. I think it is probably the sort of thing, Sir, that one could use in a sermon. As I said, it was inelegant and it certainly was an inelegant phrase.

The honourable r,entleman has no point of order, He is a little tender. The honourable p.cntleman made his point. ~o, the honourable gentleman p,ot the point of the shfft, that is what happened to the honournM e gentlf'mnn. 3456

April 2, 1973, Tape 981, Page 4 apb 'Mr. Chairman, as I was saying, the honourable gentleman is presidin~ over a department, the policy of it is in a shambles, we have no statement of policy other than one made six or eight months ago that apparently has not been carried through. We have nothing on the fishermens' collective union le~islation and it is not good legislation I gather; it does not seem to be working. The president of the union, Mr. Pichard Cashin, has sent round a brief to all 'Members of the House of Assembly with some quite p;ood points in it, some good suggestions.

Could the miniater tell us whether this is going to be amended this session? Can the minister tell us what is going to happen to the whole field of ex parte in1unctions? Wildcat strikes, well, we will have a royal commission and they will give us a stunning and penetrating insir.ht into the obvious. They will come back and tell us; "Yep, they are wildcat strikes because they are wildcats.'' In any event, it is a way to take care of some friends and to put off action , above all else to put off action. "We are studying it.~ We had the Cohen Commission that studied it to death.

I think if we knew when we appointed the Cohen Commission it would take two and a-half or three years and producrd a document that high. which I am sure the minister has read, I have read parts of it, I doubt ff anybody elsethough has really read it. Hae the honourable gentleman from Bell Island read the Cohen Col111'\ission Report? :AR. NEARY: '1-fR. ROBERTS: Parts of it. Ile has read parts of it. I do not thJ nk nnyhody hns read it. Professor Cohen did, 'Mr. Joel Bell the research director did. It is a p,old ~ine of infomntion. To separate the dross from the gold is a difficult procedure.

The minister may tell us please what the policy of the ndministrnt1on is and why this threat to the public service who arc nenrly 30,000 people. Out of a workforce in Newfoundland of 145,000 or 150,000, that is twenty percE'nt of the workforce who are now nepotinting under the threat (not n threat of a strike or a lock­ out that ls part of the collective bargainini;?: process) workin~ and 3457

April 2, 1973, Tape 981, Page 5 apb negotiating under the threat; "Ah ha! we will condemn you before the eyes of the people. We will increase the taxes and we will blame it on you. When the mothers go hungry or the children ~o hungry, it will be your fault ~r. Teacher or your fault Mr. Policeman becauRe you would not accept what we dished out to you and be grateful for it." The minister also made a statememt today.

He was asked about it on orders and on orders he made his usual Slllart alecky - he has not learned,if he does not know the answer to stand up like other honourable gentlemen dotand we have all been in this position) and say; "I do not know the answer to that, ~r. Speaker,"or Mr. Chairman, whoever it is,"I shall attempt to find out." The ~inister of Finance last ni~ht was good enough to find out several things like that and he knows, the Minister of Finance knows infinitely more than the !!inister of Industrial P.elations will ever even dream of.

He does not know the answer,and instead of getting up and saying; •·r do not but I shall try to find out," what he does is get up and try to be smart alecky and makes a fool of himself. He does not need any help in makin~ a fool of himself,he does it adequately and admirably. Are this administration about to introduce compulsory arbitration? We have a number of strikes no~ We have a strike at Bonavista that has been p.oing on for nine or ten months, a legal, lawful strike. We can decry it, we can decry the lack of action by the p,overrunent. They did not hesitate during an election to step in.

We do not hear any talk of it now, we do not see the Premier taking a helicopter to fly to Bonavista Town to enter into that strike. The member for Bonavista South who I am ~lad to understand is to stay with us, I am glad of that, I think the people of his district will be glad, it means that they get the chance to pass 1udgement on him in two or three years whenever the election comes. MR. W.N.POWF.: Mer.ill is the loser. .. --------- - - - 3458

April 3, 1973, Tape 981, Page 6 -- ~pb 'MR. ROBERTS: Yes, Mc~ill or which ever university are the losers. 'But I am g,lAd the. honourable p,entleman is carryin.p; throur,h. I did not think he was a quitter, I never have and I do not now. He has made some efforts but nobody on the government side has. A delegation comes into town, the Premier is always absent, absent without leave, .tWO'L, AWOL, absent without leave. He is off somewhere today. Is he in town ., by the way? MR. MARSHALL: He is in the same place the honourable member foT Wb.ite Bay South was. !ofR. ROBERTS:~ I am glad to hear the Premier is ill.

I did not realize he :was ill until the honourable gentleman sa,id so. I thank him. It is nice to know that our Preznie .r gets 111, we all get 111 on occasion. He ~:ets ill. MR. CUAIRJ!AN: Order please! 345!)

April 3, 1973 Tape 982 PK - l HR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Leader of the Opposition is directed to the rule of relevancy, while - MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, maybe the fact the Premier is ill has something to do with the minister's salary in Manpower and Industrial Relations. If I were Premier and had a minister like this,I would be ill too. MR. CHAIRMAN: I think that the honourable Leader of the Opposition had to stretch the point of relevancy to the breaking point and I would ask the honourable Leader of the Opposition to direct his remarks directly to it. HR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Chairman, I am glad to know the Premier is ill and will be back with us shortly. I certainly wish him a speedy and a complete recovery because we do like to see him in the chamber, Sir. Now as I was saying we have not seen the Premier go posting down the Bonavista Town to intervene in a strike there. It is a lawful strike. It has gone on a long while. It has gone on much too long. One has one's views. Mine are quite simple. I think the company are acting scandalously and infamously.

As I understand, the only issue in that strike now is that in Grand Bank they will pay a man or woman doing a certain job "X" dollars and "Y" cents an hour. In Bonavista they will not pay a man or woman doing the same job the same amount of money, they are offering less. That is the only issue, Well if that is the issue it is a scandalous and imfamous type of issue for a company to stand on in a province as amall as this. But it is a lawful strike. The company are lawfully, completely within their rights to refuse to give in. We have a strike at St. Lawrence, the CNTU local there, The St.

Lawrence Protective Workers' Union are on strike. They are on strike lawfully against ALCAN and·their employers. We have a strike at Buchana t•ere the Steel Workers Local are on strike againat their employera, ASRCO, again a lawfu'i strike. Where elae do we have atrikes now? 3460

April 3, 1973 Tape 982- PK - 2 AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: But there ia no lawful strike at Come by Chance. I am speaking only of lawful strikes. At Harbour Breton we have another lawful strike, the trawler ~orkers there who are members of the Newfoundland Fishermen Food and Allied Workers Union are on a lawful strike against their employers, the B.C. Packers Plant at Harbour Breton. They have some unlawful strikes on. That is a different thing, the law provides, the labour mov?uient welcomes the correct way to deal with unlawful strikes.

That is not exparte injunctions, but there is a correct way to deal with them. We have these four lawful strikes, there may be some others relatively small but these are the four large ones. They are significant. Two of them are in the mining industry, two of them are in the fishing industry, basic industries. None of them have been on for a long time,except Bonavista that has been on for nine month. The Harbour Breton one is only a couple of weeks old• the St. Lawrence one is a week or ten days and Buchans is - AN HON. MEMBER: The St. Lawrence one is only two or three days. MR. ROBERTS: St.

Lawrence is only two or three days. Indeed I heard a statement attributed to the company today, Mr. Bursey,their public information spokesman,that the company apparently were willing to negotiate on monetary items

whereas previously I understood they had not - so maybe we will see some action there. The strike in Buchana is only about three weeks old. MR. DAWE: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: No, 1 think it is at least three. It does not matter. It is not very long. The important point is that it is not very long. The one in Bonavista has been on since June, eight or nine months,but the fact that the plant there has closed or would have closed in the seasonal course of events, in November - December anyway. apparently has some effect. I gather there is not any great pressure to get it opened. Apparently it is going to be a month or two before 3461

April 3, 1973 Tape 982 PIC - 3 we eee movoment there. But anyway we have thie eituation. lt 1 aerioue and nobody would pretend having two of our minea ahutdown by strikes and having a large fish plant, a plant which is vital to the progress of one community, to having that one closed by a strike and then having the B.C. Packers Plant at Harbour Breton deprived of their offshore fish by a lawful strike, nobody would deny that that is serious.

But this morning the minister was quoted,and I was astounded to hear him but I did hear hie very own voice, on my very cnm radio, as I was shaving my very own face thia morning. MR. EVANS: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, the gentleman for Burgeo, he made a speech yesterday the most of which consisted of a vicious personal attack on me, I welcome it because if a mania known by his enemies,! am proud, happy. delighted and pleased to have the gentleman for Burgeo, the only man in this House with an I.Q. of 300,standing against me. MR. EVANS: Inaudible. MR.

ROBERTS: That is right, Sir, the two of us together, the gentleman for Burgeo and myself - that is not parliamentary I will not say it. Anyway the gentleman for Burgeo adds something to the House. He adds something to the House. He certainly does, Sir. He certainly does. He adds spice to the broth. Now this morning the Minister of Manpower,and I am not quoting him exactly, I did not jot down his words and I did not write it down, said that the government were considering the introduction of legislation in respect of compulsory arbitration.

My colleague 1 the member for Bell Island 1 invited the minister to say something about that on Orders of the Day~in response to a question, and the minister confirmed that they were considering it, but then he tried to down play it by saying that they were considering 3462

April 3, 1973 Tape_ 982 PK-4 many things. Well, Mr. Chainnan, that is quite a revelation. There have been instances in Newfoundland of compulsory arbitration. The hospital workers at Grand Falls was such an instance. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Was it not? No, they were ordered back to work. Well how was it settled then? AN HON. MEMBER: AN HON. MEMBER: That is for you and your colleagues to decide, Sir. Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Oh, well, okay then the legislation was even weaker but - okay so I will take that back, there was no instance there. There have been none apparently. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible.

MR. ROBERTS: There has been one in - it may make some sense in a public service but I am sure the honourable gentleman for St. John's Centre would agree with me that if people are going to go on strike, if they feel that their cause is just and right, the mere fact that that strike is unlawful, it is not going to stop them from walking out. There have been too many instances in Newfoundland and across Canada of that too- and I am not condoning,what is unlawful is unlawful. The fact remains that the law does not take reality into account, the law,as was said in Dickens, Sir, Mr.

Bumble I believe said it, "The law is an ass." But the gentleman this morning referred to considering compu~~ory arbitration. What put it in mind I suggest was Ontario and British Columbia which recently have moved in the elevator workers' strike. There we had a situation where a strike was on for six months.

There was no apparent move towards settlement at all, both sides were adamant in their refusal to move from their position and the positions were poles apart and the strike was having widespread public effect because it meant that every building more than three stories hi~h being built anywhere in these provinces was stopped, construction had stopped 3463

April 3, 1973 Tape 982 PK - 5 because the elevators were not being put in and eventually the governments of the day decided, in one case the Progressive Conservative in Ontario and I believe the New Democratic Party Government in, David Barrett•'s government in British Colmnbia, moved to end the strike. I am not sure about British Columbia but I am sure about Ontario. They said they would move and they did put legislation through the House. Now, Sir, that might be a reasonable response in given conditions. There may be conditions in Newfoundland at some point where we would have to do that.

I for one 1 as a member of this House~would be prepared if the minister came before us and outlined the circU111Stances and made a case, I would be prepared to do that if it were the only course of action that we could follow. But urely we have not come to that now.

We have some lawful strikes that are inconvenient, seriously ~nconvenient to the men on strike, hardship possibly to the people in Bonavista who have not had a pay cheque for nine months now, not qualified for unemployment insurance, what money they have is their strike pay, which of course is non-allowable income, and they have had on top of that welfare. Hardship for Buchana! They have had the trouble with the schools and the hospital. That has been straightened out fortunately, but hardships. Strike pay is Lnfamously less than the men would earn. Hardship I guess for the trawler men down at Harbour Breton.

But they feel and they believe that their cause is right and they believe that they will win their cause by going on strike and the law of this province and the public policy of this province gives them the right to do so.

So I will ask the minister if he will either let us into his confidence as to what he is thinking about compulsory arbitration or, and I would infinitely pref~r the second, if he would assure us that the administration have no prospect, no thought - I realize that one cannot say what will happen in one month or six months, I do not expect the minister to do that, but as it now stands tmleas something 3464

April 3, 1973 Tape 982 PK - 6 develops that we do not see, there is no prospect of bringing in legislation to force compulsory arbitration, legislation to force them back to work. legislation to remove the right to strike. Mr. Chairman, takes it away. :tt may also take away the companion right to a lockout by the employer. But that is what compulsory arbitration legislation 1•, it takes away the right to strike. 3465

April 3, 1973 Tape no. 983 Pagel - MW .It aaya to the worker, you shall not strike. It says, in return ve will set up a so-called impartial tribunal, usually three people, one union, one company, a neutral chairman,and their word will be binding on both sides. It will be argued against. The fact remaina to do that does take away the right to strike. I invite the minister now, when he returns to the Chamber, :;o reassure the House, to reassure the people of this province that the administration have no such policy in contemplation. They may be driven to it, if he wants to say that the time may come.

The time may come when they are forced by circumstances. They must deal with events u they find them and that may be the only response to a given set of events. But certainly that time haa not come now. It is not even in prospect now.These are a few preliminary remarks, Mr. Chairman. We have gone a little long but honourable gentlemen opposite tend to provoke me f~om my usual good-natured slope and make me loquacious if not eloquent. The minister seems to have ignored the committee again. I suppose he is·gone out on a message. Why do we not occupy our time while we get another quorum called, Sir.

The minister is not here anyway. Hold on now! Here comes the minister1 Here comes the whip! I thank the honourable gentleman and I thank the honourable llinister. MR.. EVANS: To a point of order. I uggest that we bring in Sesame Street here so they can learn to count to fourteen. Mil. ROBERTS: Hr. Chairman, the big yellow bird on the other side is a cookie grabber. Now, Sir, - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible Mil. ROBERTS: I am only doing it for his health. Smoking is not good for you. The honourable gentleman will tell the honourable gentleman 3466

April 3, 1973 Tape no. 983 Page 2 from Burgao that amoking 1• not good for one'• health. I am only trying to halp the honourable gentleman. I cannot do anything for hia mental health. I may be able to do something for his phyaical health. Now that the minister is back, Sir, I have perhaps gone on a little~but fair enough. I just touched on two or three matters and if he could perhaps reassure the House and the committee and the people of this provin~e, I think it would be a good thing. In any event, I think it is only fair of us to give him a little opportunity,so he is on. BON. G.

DAWE (Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations) Mr. Chairman, last year the former Minister of Labour did outline some plans he had in mind at that time to bring before cabinet for radification and approval. They included many advantageous amendments as far as the labour movement is concerned in this province. When I took over in December, when I took over the Department of Labour, these amendments, some of them had been drafted, others had not been, I felt that I could not just rush into it and take them all and send them off to the cabinet room and say, Here are some amendments which were made up.

I found them on my desk. What are you going to do about it?" I decided that I would review each one of them. Many of the proposals are very good. They are excellent, I think in keeping with what the labour movement of this province are looking for today. I have here some of the proposals made by the former minister at the Newfoundland Federation of Labour Conference. The elimination of the ex parte injunction: This is a proposal which is now before cabinet.

An amendment to the Workmen's Compensation Act to allow the fishermen and farmers to become covered: These are proposals which are also now before cabinet or oa the way. I do not know what will happen to these. I do not know what cabinet will do with them. I do not have the ability here or the authority to say that they are going to be approved or that they are going to be rejected.

An act which was proposed, The Employment of Children's Act, 34G7

April 3, 1973 Tape DO. 983 Page 3 baa already been paued through this House. The Wage Protection Act 111 on the vay. All thee 1 the honourable minister listed them all - with regard to - MR. NEARY: Would the honourable minister explain the Wage Protection Act? MR. DAWE: Well I prefer to let that go until it comes before the House. At that time I will be explained in detail. The honourable member does not know,that is for sure. There are other clauses in the Labour Relations Act that the labour movement find offensive,that have been proposed to cabinet for amendments.

There is also an educational progra11UDe which the former minister outlined and suggested to the Federation of Labour last year. It is a good idea, It is an ezcellent idea. It is one which t hope will be implemented this year. I think it is time that we did educate our young people and it has to start at the high school level; educate them to the benefits of a collective agreement; the proper way in which to proceed,through the grievance procedures.

It is time that we educated our people that it is not right, if something happens that you do not agree with, if the foreman or supervisor happens to look at you in a nasty manner, that you do not throw your tools in the air and call your buddies and walk out. It is time that people right from the Grade IX, X and XI learn the benefits of collective bargaining and the agreement which is brought about as a result of collective bargaining.

This is quite a transition for students 1 to leave high school,~o go into a ~rade school,and a trade school is not that much different from • high achool in the hours that they keep, the breaka that they get and so on. It appears to me that perhaps the high school and trade school traditions or habits• if you like .of getting a coffee break in the morning, one in the afternoon, an hour and one-half to 3468

April 3, 1973 Tape no. 983 Page 4 lunch, you re off at four o'clock and if you like, you can walk out or ask the teacher if you can get off at three o'clock and that is it, you just walk out, there ie nothinR to ,t. These are traits which apparently are being brought into the labour movement, which are being brought into the work field by these people. Because they do not get the same benefits such as these, when they go out to work, because a supervisor says,'No" you cannot have an hour off. No,you cannot have an extra half hour to lunch," then they become upset over it.

This has in the past given rise to many wildcat strikes. Now we come to the compulsory arbitration. I was asked yesterday by a reporter if we had been discussing compulsory arbitration. We discussed it. We have discussed many things~as I said earlier, in the question period. We cannot discuss alone the good things that unions want on the one hand and say this is what the unions do not want. We cannot discuss that. We must, in my opinion, weigh both idea. We muat discus  the good and the bad.

Haw are we going to come to a proper decision if we do not discuss and debate the pros and cons of any proposalt Therefore, I informed the news reporter yesteday that we had discussed it. I did not say that we were considering it, that it would be something that would be proposed to cabinet, because that is not so. We have discussed it. We have talked about. That is as far as it went. The honourable member mentioned the various strikes we have had in the province, some are legal,others are not.

I would like to draw this House's attention to the fact that the people in Wabush have agreed to go back to work and also the fact that I was not given the opportunity to privilege this House by making the announcement here. The Alcan strike has been on about a day and one-half roughly. Buchana, I think, just over two weeks. I cannot comment on these. To comment on these now I think would be dangerous. 3469

April 3, 1973 Tape aa. 983 Page S The :Bonavista strike has been on for someUme, quite longer than any of us would prefer to see it. The plant I am. told may not be able to get open until the end of May because of ice conditions. What vi.11 happen 1:here I I do not know. We have a conciliation officer who is very arduously working on this, trying to get the parties back together and he has been working on it for some time, ever since the demonstration at Confederation Builiding. 3470

April l. 1973 Tape no. 984 Pagel - MW We hav• alo on the drafting boards an- Public Servic• Collective Bargaining Act. The Hospitals Act will be repealed. That was a very bitter piece of legislation brought in by the former administration. With regard to overall policy as far as labour is concerned, I think until I have weighed all the evidence and until I have some decision from cabinet, I can hardly come to this House or to the news media or anybody else and make any public statements as to what exactly is going to be done.

The suggestion that management and labour get together and discuss a new labour code or labour relations act is a very good one and one which the Premier agrees with. He has already told the union movement that he will be only too happy to allow them to sit down with management and draw up some act which would be amicable to both parties. This I am reasonably sure will come about. We would like to establish some guidelines in the meantime for such a get-together. This is what we are working on at the present time. I am sure that the other honourable members have other questions to uk. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, we have heard for some time that the Department of Manpower and Industrial Relations, which was the old Department of Labour, has been in a bit of a shambles for the last couple of months. I did not realize, Sir, until listening to the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations,that the situation was so bad. Hy honourable colleague, the Leader of the Opposition.asked the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations to state government policy on labour matters in this province. The minister, in attempting to answer some of the points that were raised by the Leader of the Opposition. showed, Mr.

Chairman, to me at leaet 1 conclusively, his lack of knowledge of labour management relations. The minister is floundering, Sir. The minister does not understand the philosophy of the department. 34 .. , 1

April 3, 1973 Tape no. 984 Page 2 I hope 1f I aay thi• • that the minister will not rush out and reaign like the hon. Hiniater of Fiaheries did vhen I discussed the Fiaheries Eatimat•• in thi• House laat week. In my opinion. Hr. Chairman, with all due respect, the.honourable mini ter who occupies that portfolio is not suited for that job. The honourable minister has no background of labour management relations, no experience in that field, Sir. In my opinion, the honourable minister is unsuited for the job, for this important task.

It is the first time to my knowledge, Sir, in this province that when the department is being criticized, the minister is being criticized by both labour and management at the same time. There are times, Sir, when the minister and the department will come under attack from either the trade union movement, of which once I was a member myself, or will come under attack by an employer or a group of employers. This is the ftrst time, Sir, to my knowledge, since Confederation. that the minister and the department have come under severe criticism and attack by both labour and management at the same time.

Only today, Hr. Chairman, we heard the(Acting) President of the Newfoundland Federation of Labour take the honourable minister to task about his public statement yesterday on compulsory arbitration. Now, Sir, the honourable minister apparently is not aware that his predecessor, the hon. member for St. Barbe South. when he was Minister of Labour, went down to Hotel Newfoundland, I think it was, and stated emphatically what the policy of the government was going to be for the next twelve months in reg•rd to labour matters and proposed labour legislation that would be brought into this House.

Now we learn this afternoon, Mr. Chainnan. that the minister is only now bringing bits and pieces of legislation before cabinet. The minis tet' said (I do not know if I am quoting the ministet' properly or not) he was not sure what his colleagues would do with this. 3472

April 3, 1973 Tape no. 984 Page 3 Yet, Mr. Chairman, last summer we were told by his predecessor that this is government policy. If it is government policy, I _,. presume the minister, when he was speaking to the Newfoundland Federation of Labour, was speaking on behalf of the government, he was authorized to say certain things. Now the minister tells us that he has to refer these matters to cabinet and he is not sure what the cabinet will do about these proposals. It is inconaistent, Mr. Chairman. It is inconaistent.

No wonder the labour movement in Newfoundland today is so disillusioned and disappointed with the Tory Administration who built up their hopes and expectations in two provincial general elections in this province and the Tory Administration have not delivered, Mr. Chairman, in labour matters, no more than they have in all the other promises that they made in two provincial general elections in this province. They have not shaped up, Sir. They have not done anything! The whole Department of Labour is in a shambles, Mr. Chairman. It is in a shambles! It is a fact,l am told, Mr.

Chairman, that the morale of the Department of Manpower and Industrial Relations is very low at the present time. The minister is not able to provide the leadership that is necessary in that department because, with all due respect to the minister, he does not have the background for it. Labour and management in this province, Sir, have lost confidence in the Minsiter of Manpower and Industrial Relations. I am afraid, Mr. Chairman, if the Premier and the government do not do something about it, we are going to be in for a long, hot summer of labour unrest in this province. This is only early April, Sir.

We have already seen signs of it. Io the month of January I am told there were ten work stoppages with a loss of 19,000 man days. This province cannot afford that, Mr. Chairman. 34 .. , 3

April l, 1973 Tape no. 984 Page 4 Th• other day when I aked th• Miniat•r of Manpower and Industrial Relation• during the question and aaaver period in this honourable Houae what steps the goveroment were talking to deal with the unusual number of work stoppages that were taking place in this province and the number of work stoppages that would take place during the nine or ten months ahead, the minister said, '"Well, I am not a prophet." He could not tell vhat would happen in the next eight or ten months. Well, Sir, all the minister has to do is go to his files.

There is a score sheet kept down in the minister's department becauae I started it when I was there. It shows precisely, Mr. Chairman, when every contract expires in this province and when negotiations are expected to begin. The minister should be aware of this. The whole purpose of gettin8 this score sheet, Sir, was so that the conciliation officers and the other officials of the department could be alerted and could mve in even before negotiations started.

They could move in and see what preliminary work could be done on a nev working agreement even before the official negotiations started and the party sat around the bargaining table. Thia was . an objective of mine, Sir. I did not get a chance to finish it. I certainly laid the foundation for it. Mr. Chairman, all the minister had to do vas to pick up where the previous administration left off. Pick up as a matter of fact where his predecessor left off,vho was not such a bad Minister of Labour,by the way, Mr. Chairman. He was not uch a bad Miniter of Labour.

He was getting the confidence of the trade union movement and he was getting the confidence of the employee•' groups across this province~

April 3, 1973 Tape No. 985 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: and then all of a sudden the Premier cut him down in his tracts and transferred him to another department. I think it was a mistake. At least that minister did have some background and understood the pl-.ilosophy of labour management relations. He had had some experience, had some work experience in these particular matters, had some experience at organizing and had been ::1.nvolved. But the present minister. Sir, in my opinion, I have to be careful how I say this, the present minister, Sir, has no knowledge whatsoever of labour management relations.

This i  becoming more obvious every day, Sir. I hope that the Premier will recognize this fact.before it is too late, before we have much more labour unrest in this province,and do something about it. I do not know, Sir, on the other side of the House who does have experience in these matters. I cannot see anybody over there. All the ~mbers are not in their seats. Maybe the member for Bonavista South who does understand human rights, maybe he would be more suited for the job. AN HON. ME!IBER: St. John's South? MR. NEARY: No, for Bonavista South. St. John's Sooth, no, looked upon with suspicion. Mr.

Chairman, the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations did not tell the House what was going to be done about the Cohf'n Report, that royal commission report that cost what~ $150,000. t think it was upwards of $175,000. He did not tell us, Sir, and there is a gold mine of information. All the minister has to do is dig in and take the report and read it. If I were minister of that department at the present time, Sir, I would be a walking encyclopedia on the Cohen Report. But I do not have to pay as much attention to it now as if I were minister of that department.

I doubt if the minister has ever taken the time to read it. 3475

April 3, 1973 ;rape No. 985 1K - 2 KR. NEARY: We heard in the Throne Speech. 1972,after the Tories took over and that crowd formed the administration, we were told that new legislation was going to be introduced regarding the registration of trade unions, We were told there was going to be an amendment to The Trade U11ion Act. Not yet, Mr. Chairman, no sign of it yet. The minister makes no reference to it today. We were told also, Sir, that the new administ~ation were going to introduce amendments and revisions to ?he !isbing In•ustry Collective Bargaining Act.

Since then, Sir. since that promise was made, we have a presentation from the Newfoundland Fish Food and Allied Workers Union,recommending certain amendments to !he Fishing Industry Collective Bargaining Act. No reference to that yet, Sir. No legislation brought before the House in two sessions. We were told, Sir, that the legislation governing collective bargaining between employees in the public servtce and the government would be introduced. The legislation had already been drafted. Apparently it was not satisfactory to the Newfoundland Government Employees Association. It was already drafted, Sir. Mr.

Dyer was appointed to administer this act. The new government, the Tories said, ''Well,we will amend it." I have not seen it yet in the House, Sir, no sign of it. The minister made no reference to it today when he was stating government policy. We were told in that same Throne Speech, Mr. Chairman, that the government would establish a manpower research division and counselling service in the department, a very imrortant matter, no reference by the minister today. We were told that the government would establish an advisory council on manpower and industrial relations, no reference to it, Mr.

Chairman, no reference to it. 3476

April 3, 1973 Tape No, 985 NM - 3 MR. NEARY: All the minister did today was to show how inexperiP.nced he is in these matters. He showed his lack of knowl~dge on labour management relations. I would like to put the question straight to the minister now, Sir, and I would like to ask him what is going to be done about the Cohen Report. Does the minister,as a government, intend to do anything with the Cohen Report or are they just going to leave it on the shelf down in the minister's office an~ let it gather up dust? Mr.

Chairman, in the matter of compulsory arbitration, I do not know if the honourable members of this House are aware of it or not, it has been tried in other parts of Canada. It has been tried in a number of other provinces. It has been tried by the Government of Canada, it has been tried in Ottawa, but it just does not work, Sir. Not only labour but management has been shying away from compulsory arbitration. The minister made a foolish statement when he was on his feet a few moments ago by saying, ''What do unions think, we are only to bring in things that are good for them?" MR.

DA:=WE=:'--_ That is not what I said at all. MR . NEARY: l'hat is what the minister said. I wrote it down. Re said, "The trarle. unions think we are only going to brinp in things that are good. We have to bring in some bad things too," he said. The minister said they have to accept MR. DAWE: Point of order, if those members on the oth~r side are going to expound on statements I said, well let them be accurate, Mr. Chairman. I did not say that. I said that we weigh, we discuss~ we discuss things that unions do not like and we discuss things that unions do like.

It is only in that way that we can come to a sensible agreement on what ptoposal to put to Cabinet and before this House. MR. NF.ARY: The minister said that they have to accept the good with the bad, Sir. That is what the minister said. 347?

April l, 1973 Tape No. 985 NM - 4 MR. DAWE: He did not. MR. NEARY: I am looking for my notes. I just cannot lay my hands on them now, but I have them here somewhere. MR. DAWE: It was in sho~thand - so short you cannot see it. MR. CHAIRMAN: To that point of order, it does deserve to be recognized. The honourable the minister has time for unlimited debate under this heading and if the honourable the member for Bell Island is making statements,which may or may not be inaccurate, with which the minister differs, he has unlimited time in which to reply.

So there is no point of order, however the honourable minister has unlimited time in which to make his replies. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, thank you, I am very grateful for your ruling. The minister does have unlimited time and he can get up and make all the speeches on this he wants because we are going to spend some time on this. I am just going to prove how incompetent the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations is, Sir. That is the first time in this honourable House that I have made a statement like that, Sir.

I I never used the word incompetent but I am using it now because I think the minister is incompetent. The minister said that they have a list of uniond wants and what they do not want. "and you have to accept the good with the bad:' he said. 'Well Sir, what about employers? Is the minister aware that a large number of employers across this country are also opposed to compulsory arbitration? It takes away the right to strike, Sir. The minister will discover that not only the trade union movement is opposed to this but a large number of employers are opposed to it because it just does not work.

It has not worked in other parts of Canada, lt has not worked in the United States and it has not worked in other countries of the world and it will not work in Newfoundland. MR. DAWF:: It will not get a chance. 3478

April l, 1973 'l'ape o. 985 NM - 5 MR. NF.ARY: I have a word of warning to the Tory Administration that they not introduce compulsory arbitration in this province. lf they do, Sir•

April 3, 1973 Tap• 986 th•7 will have the fright of their livea. Not only will they have the trade union movement up againat them but they will have the employers - MR. CARTER: Mr. Chairman, to a point of order. I think you could even say there are several points of order here but one will probably do. We have been subjected during this debate to a long tirade of speculation and tedious howling on behalf of the hon. member for Bell Island. I do not think it is necessary. I do not think it helps this debate one bit and I would respectfully request Your Honour to rule strongly against it. MR.

CHAIRMAN: With respect to that point of order. The hon. member for Bell Island, the quality of the debate is not to be judged upon by the Chairman. The hon. the member is being relevant and accordingly I rule that he may continue. MR. NEARY: The member for St. John's North just gets back from the Canary Islands, supposed to be well rested, Sir, supposed to be able to sit in this House - MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please! The hon. member for Bell Island should direct himself to Head 501(01). MR. NEARY: I will deal with the member for the Canary Islands later, Sir. So, Mr.

Chainnan, we want to know what is going to be done about the Cohen Report. Are any of the recommendations of the Cohen Report going to be implemented? Mr. Chairman, we heard the Minister of Education,! think it was about ten days ago, a week or ten days ago, announce in this hon.

House that the Department of Education was going to set up a co111111ittee to study the demand for special skills or tradesmen in this province, The minister told us that they were going to try and determine what the requirements JM - 1 were for t:he next couple of years and I think the minister specifically mentioned the oil refinery at Come by Chance and the linerboard mill at Stephenville. Well, Sir, if the minister is going to limit - 3480

April 3. 1973 tape 986 MR. DA\.IP.: Hr . Cl,nlm•n, to a rotnt or order, th• hon, member 1• now dtacuasin~ education rstimates and not labour. He ia referring to the Minister of Education and the proposal made by the minister at that time. MR. CHAIRMA.~: I must confess my ignorance of what was transpiring there,as I was busy making a note of another thing that was certainly irrelevant to this debate. So consequently I am unable to rule on that particular point of order. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, the point I am making is that in my opinion it is the duty and the responsibility of the new Department of Manpower and Industrial Relations to undertake at once a study to determine the demand for special skills and/or tradesmen that may be required in all industry, Sir, in this province in the next four or five years. If the Department of Manpower and Industrial Relations do not do this, Sir, then I am afraid that Newfoundland will miss the boat, Newfoundlanders will not be trained for the job opportunities that are coming up in this province in the next five to ten years.

I would also like the minister to tell us - Sir, we dragged the information ont of him last week that the apprenticeship board had not met since the middle of December. This is a pretty important board, Sir, and this is a very grevious error in my opinion. Not anexamination I suppose has been held since mid-December and not a certificate has been issued to any of the large number of apprentices that are getting their journeyman's certificates under the apprenticeship programme of this province.

I would like .JH - 2 the minister to tell us what is going to be done with the apprenticeship programme and why the government does not require employers to train more apprentices in relation to the number of tradesmen that they have on their payrolls. Mr. Chairman, I have a letter here from a trade union that 3481

Aprtl 3, l 973 Tape 986 trike , the blame i  being placed on the hould•r• of th• vorkor• of this province. It has been pointed out to me on numerous occasions, Sir, that this is not so, that management is as much to blame for these strikes,whether they be legal or illegal, as the unions are. That is what I have been told, Sir, and I have had a little bit of correspondence pointing that out to me. They just do not only say, Sir, that management should share the blame but the unions have taken a positive approach to this problem.

They have suggested to the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations that the only way to resolve this serious problem is through education. I agree with them, Sir. I agree with them. As a matter of fact I made a recommendation to the minister's predecessor several months ago that a meeting be held between labour and management 9 headed up by the Minister of Labour at the time.to discuss wildcat strikes in this province,and that was one of the recommendations that came out of this conference, Sir, that more emphasis be laid on employer-employee education. JM - 4 It was never done. The conference was held.

Some good recommendations came out of it but they were never acted on and instead the government decided to appoint a well-to-do lawyer to investigate wildcat strikes in this province, another gentleman who has no background, absolutely no experience in these matters,and he is expected to make reconnnendations on wildcat strikes. The gentleman happens to be a first cousin of mine, Sir, but that is no excuse. I call the shots as I see then Jfr.

Chairman, and I do not think anything will come of it althouP,h it will probably cost the taxpayers of this province a few thousand dollars for travelling, for lawyers fees and what have you,but nothing will 3483

April 3, · 1973 , Tape 986 JM - 3 I will not name who made a suggestion to me some time ago,just to show you, Sir, just to prove the point that I made a few moments ago about what they think of the present Minister of Labour and the Department of Labour. He said, "We propose that the Government of Newfoundland - MR. DAWE: Mr. Chairman, is the hon. member prepared to table that? MR. NEARY: No, I am not going to table it. MR. DAWE: Then he should not refer to it and he should not read it. MR. NEARY: I will refer to any document I like. MR.

CHAIRMAN: My understandinr. of the committee is that it has been the rule for some time and I presume it will remain so that private members are not permitted to table things in the Hous_e. Presumably it could be done with the concurrence of the whole House. uowever,the hon. member will not be compelled to table it. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I am just using this as an illustration of what the trade union movement across this province - MR. CROSBIE: To a point of order, Mr.

Chairman, it is contrary to parliamentary practice for members to be permitted to quote from documents that they do not identify and are not prepared to table. If the hon. the member is now quoting from a document which is critical of the Minister of Labour~siRned by some union or has some comment in it 1 then the document should be tabled if it is to be quoted from,otherwise it should not be quoted from. HR. CHAIRMAN: The point is certainly a debatable point and there does appear to be some merit in the argument of the Minister ~f Finance. I am not prepared to rule on it at this time.

However, maybe the hon. member could proceed with other points that he may have to make or he may wish to - MR. NF.ARY: It is not really that important, Mr. Chairman, I have been told, Sir, that most unions across this island today and in Labrador feel that the blame for strikes, especially the wildcat 3482

April 3, 1973 Tape 987 come out of it, Sir. The only real cure if there is a cure - I doubt very much if there is a cure for wildcat strike, Sir. I IB-1 do not think that you can legislate people back to work. The only approach that I can see to the problem is through education. The minister got up this afternoon and told us, Sir, that his predecessor had referred to labour education in this province and that the minister hoped to see something done about it this year. The minister was not even aware, Sir, that in this yeais estimates,under heading V-1107, $10,000 is allocated for labour education.

I would like to ask the minister now what they have in mind, what it is they are going to do for this $10,000. Are they going to run their own education programme? Are they going to try to change the curriculum in the schools? What is it they are going to do, Mr. Chairman? We would like to know. There is $10,000 here for labour education. What is it for? r~uld the minister give us a breakdown of it? He did not even know it was there until I brought it to his attention this moment.

Sir, I do not know if the minister has been making notes there or not but there are a number of questions that I put to the honourable minister and maybe I will just sit down now and let him answer some of these questions. Then when he is finished, I may have a few more to ask him. 'My colleague, the Leader of the Opposition has already raised the matter of ex parte in.1unctions and only yei;terday, Sir, we saw an injunction issued against the strikers at Come By Chance. This was supposed to be done away with.

We were told in the Throne Speech,back on March 1. 1972,that was one of the first things the Tory Administration was going to do, eliminate the ex parte injunction. It has not been done yet, Sir. All we have seen in this House so far are little bits and pieces of insignificant, trivial, trifling legislation. Now I want the minister to be man enough to stand in this House and state precisely what the p,overnment policy is on labour matters in this province ancl when we can expect the amendments and the new pieces 3484

April 3, 1973 Tape 987 of legislation that we were promised in two Throne Speechs in this honourable House. IB-2 The minister got up and made another foolish statement, Sir. I cannot help but comment on it. It was so foolish I suppose I should ignore it. "Coffee breaks have caused more wildcat strikes than anything else." What foolishness, ~r. Chairman. When there is a wildcat strike it is a much more serious matter thAn a coffee break, much more serious matter, Sir. If the minister would only just take time to do a little research, he would find out that it is not coffee breaks that cause wildcat strikes.

Is it a coffee break that is causing the wildcat strike down at Come By Chance, Sir? ?hat is costing $100,000 a day I am told? Was that a coffee break that caused that? No, Sir, it was not a coffee break and I could tell th1s honourable House what caused that strike. They would not like it. The governmept representative on the site down there had some connection, Sir, with that strike. I cannot prove it but I have been told. Writing his secret, confidential reports to the Premier and making commitments to workers that he had no authority to make.

That is one of the main causes of that strike down there today, Sir, that is causing so much hardship and costing that project so much money. Another gentleman who was completely ignorant of the labour management relations, knows nothing at all, was sent down to Come By Chance as a representative of the iovernment, a go-hetween between lahour and management. All he did was cause trouble, Sir. I think the government should state the real cause of that strike at Come Ry Chance. Another thinp. that I would like to ask the honourable minister, Sir.

What is the honourable minister's department or what is the government doinp, ahnut the discrimination npainst Newfoundland workers on some of these projects? We saw it and heard about it in Stevenville and morale out there is prettv lo~ at the present time, S1r. We saw it happen at r.hurchill Falls and now we see it happenin~ at Come Ry rhnnce, Sir, where Americans and Mainland workers are comin~ 3485

April 3, 1973 Tape 987 IB-3 into this province and gettin~ preferential treatment. I am not against Mainlanders and I am not against American workers comin, into this province. It is absolutely necessary in some instances to import workers in here becau~e we do not have the trades and we do not have the skills available in Newfoundland. One could argue, if all the Newfoundlanders were sent home from Ontario it would have a pretty drastic effect upon the economy of this province. That may be true, Sir. and I am not arguing a~ainst Mainland workers. What I am saying is this , Mr.

Chairmans Where our workers have equal qualifications to Mainlanders or American workers, they should not be discriminated against, they should get the same pay, the same working conditions and the same fringe benefits.

I am told, Sir - I do not know if it is true or not but I would like for the honourable minister to tell me because I am sure the honourable minister,if he is doing his job,should have looked into this - I am told that Newfoundlanders working side by side by Mainlanders and Americans at Come By Chance get the same rate of pay here, they ~ct their check here, both are paid an equal amomt but then there is another check sent to the home of the Mainlander whether he be from Quebec or Ontario. I would like to find out if this is true or not, Sir. It is discrimination. It should not be allowed to continue.

It is another reason for the strike at Come By Chance today. Newfomdlanders are getting browned off wit~ thi~, Sir. Newfoundlanders do the work, are quite capable, they have the oualifications, quite comoetent and able to do the work - nine chances out of ten they have to show these imports what to do.But who receives the benefits? The imports, Sir. That is wrong. If it is happening, it should be discontinued. I hope the minister will be able to enlighten us on that matter and tell us that it is not so.

I am not just making this statement, Sir, to start a war between Newfounnlanders Rnd Mainlanders cominF in here. That is no 3486

April 3, 1973 Tape 187 IB-4 not the purpose of it, Sir. The Human Rights Association should take it up,if it is happening. They should not have to be told. They should take it up automatically,if it is happening. I have heard about it. I have had a number of workers come and tell me about it. I am told that it is true. I hope it is not. I certainly want to have it investigated.

I might even sugr,est to the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations that a study be made of this, that if necessary set up a royal commission to investigate this to see if it is happening because if 1t is, Sir, it is wrong and it should be stopped. It should not be tolerated for five minutes. Newfoundlanders are as good as the best. They should not be treated as second rate workers. Whether it is in Labrador City or Wabush or Churchill Falls or Come By Chance or Stevenville, it does not make any difference. Our workers can hold their own, Sir, with the best of them.

They should be paid equal pay for equal work with Mainlanders and Americans. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Human Rights are going to look into it. Well done! Another sten forward for Human Rights. Sir, it is a pretty serious matter and you will always have labour unrest on these projects as long as that is allowed to hapnen, Sir. You will always have labour wrest. You will have one worker after the other worker's throat. You will have supervisors that are brought in from the Mainland that are distrusted, that are looked upon with suspicion.

The reason that I am taking so long on this point is because I think it is ~retty important. I just want to make my~elf clear. I am not a~ainst - I want to repent this, Mr. Chairman, I .Rill not against ~ainlanders cominp in here working on our oro1ects. In Quebec I understand you have to get a work permit,over ri~ht next to my honourable friend's district in Labrador West~ lf you want to work in Shefferville. 3487

April 3, 1973 Tape 988 PK - 1 ln Mount Wright you have to get a work permit from the Province of Quebec. Not so in Newfoundland. Not ao, Sir. You can come in here and go to work,and I will aay that it is a good thing. I am not in favour of workful permits, although I would like to see Newfoundlanders get the perference if they have the qualifications to do the job. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.. NEARY: I do not know where the fault lies, Mr.

Chairman, but it is happening, it has happened and it will happen in the future unless we do something about it, unless we stand up on our hind legs and say, no, we are not going to tolerate this. The Minister of Finance encountered that in the Linerboard Mill in Stephenville. I do not know if he was abie to rectify it or not. But it is happening today, Sir, and it should be stopped. I do not mind one bit, Mr. Chairman, about employers bringing in bricklayers or pipefitters or any other tra<le, if they are needed. lf they cannot be found in Newfoundland,! have no objection to_ that, the work has to be done.

But, Sir, they cannot produce any better than Newfoundlanders can and they should not be given perferential treatment and isolation pay, better transportation arrangements than Newfoundlanders, better fringe benefits, better vaction with pay and so forth and so on, all the way down the line. Qne cheque here and one cheque paid in Montreal. It has to stop, Sir. That is partly the reason for the poor employee/employer relations that we have today at Come by Chance, That is one of the reasons for it. The people who are dealing in these matters do not understand the local psycholo~y. They do not, Mr. Chairman.

They are used to bargaining in the big cities. They do not understand the local p,ychology, Sir. And apparently they are not prepared to take the advice of the local people. We have responsible union leaders in this province. They are trying to do the best they can but they cannot 3488

April 3, 1973 Tape 988 . PK - 2 do it all, Sir, they have to have some co-operation from the employer. Mr. Chairman, I hate to belabour this point but I cannot help but say this, how stupid it was for the employer at Come by Chance to grant an increase in pay, better working conditions, better fringe benefits to one union and then not to expect the other unions to want the same thing. Once they open up the door, Mr. Chairman, they do not have any choice, they have to grant the same concessions to every worker on that project, the workers will not accept anything less, court injunctions or no court injunctions.

They are only fighting for their rights, Sir. It was a mistake, I am not saying it was a mistake to give a certain group of employees an increase in pay. That is not a mistake, Sir, that is always in order, especially when we see the cost of living escalating the way it is today. But one thing, Sir, that they must keep in mind, if you give it to one group you have to give it to everybody. The situation at Come by Chance,in my opinion,will never be resolved until that happens.

The employer down there, the master contractor can dig his heels in if he wants, the workers at Come by Chance will settle for nothing less, Sir. What is happening now is rather unfortunate, it is tragic. As a matter of fact, you almost have got a labour war going on at Come by Chance, one union fighting the other,due to a stupid blunde½ in my opinion,on the part of the contractor. It is costing not only the worker but it is coating the project itself a substantial amount of money, Sir. I would like to hear the minister•a comment on this matter. So, Mr.

Chairman, I will take my seat now and I vill listen to what the honourable minister has to say and if there are any other questions then I will ask him,following his remarks. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, if I could take the time of the committee for a few minutes, it is easy to see, Mr. Chairman, that we are certainly not witnessinR any request for information from the honourable gentleman opposite. What we are listening to and what we are hearing 3489

April 3, 1973 Tape 988 PK - 3 of courae are political harangues. The honourable gentleman who is just pretending to aak question , has not asked a question. All he is doing is up abuaing and haranguing for political reasons. AN HON. MEMBER: That 1a not in order, Sir. MR. CROSBIE: This is quite in order, Sir. we just listened to the honourable gentleman nQW for almost an hour, almost an hour. Now the honourable gentleman suggested to the Minister of Labour, and I thought it was quite remarkable, that he should pick up where his predecessors left off.

If the honourable gentleman is referring to his Liberal predecessor, then he has quite a distance down to stoop before he starts to pick up, because it was the honourable gentleman's administration that for years, that for years would have nothing to do with the labour movement, that attempted to crush the labour movement, that i~ored the labour movement. It was the honourable gentleman's leader, the leader of the past administration, Mr.

Smallwood, who would not attend the Newfoundland Federation of Labour Meetings, would not go to their annual meeting, would not speak to them, would not receive them into the cabinet room,for years, and who brought in the legislation in 1966 to crush the hospital workers after doing the IWA in a few years earlier. This is the group across the House now, the official opposition,who have the nerve to get up and get on with the guff that we have heard from the honourable gentleman opposite. Be wanted to know, Mr. Chairman, what the government has done about Labour Relations.

Well what the government have done about Labour Relations is first that it increased the minimum wage to $1.50 an hour,last year. Then we brought in and implemented in the civil service something that the previous administration did not do, apparently would not do,that is we instituced the principle of equal pay for equal work in government service, made it retroactive. AN HON. MF.MBF:R: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: It is the flat truth, the past administration refused to do it and this year we passed and implemented the rule of equal 3490

April 3, 1973 Tape 988 PK - 4 pay for women with men in government services of Newfoundland and made it retroactive to September 30, 1971. If the honourable gentleman denies it,he lies through his teeth. He completely lies. That waa not in effect,it was brought into effect last summer and now in the public service of Newfoundland the women who do the same work as men receive equal pay and we made it retroactive to September 30, 1971. The honourable gentleman gave lip-service to the principle and never instituted, never instituted it in government service. That is something tha.t the new administration have done.

What elae have they done? I will not mention everything. But what are some of the other things that have been done? There is now being drafted, being worked on, a new Public Service Collective Bargaining Act. Honourable gentlemen opposite in their administration introduced legislation to this House in 1970 anrl had it passed through the House that was completely repugnant completely reprehensible as far as the public service employees groups were concerned, NAPE, because it left almost all power to the Lieutenant Governor-in­ Council,to the cabinet, ~he cabinet to do everything by regulation.

The legislation was just a skelton and the government could decide by order-in-council,under the legislation,what applied and what did not apply, who could be certified and who could not be certified, who could strike and who could not strike. That legislation was never proclaimed. lt was passed in 1970, the last administration was defeated in October 1971. They struggled and clung to power by their fingernails and their toenails until January 18 of 1972 and still had not proclaimed the legislation. We have not proclaimed it because we are not going to proclaim it, the act is repugnant.

Anew act is being drafted where all these vast powers given to cabinet to operate by order-in-council will be replaced by detailed provisions in the legislation. That legislation will be becoming before the House at this session. What else are we doing in the Labour Relations Field, Hr. Chairman? There will be presented to the House at this session and

April 3, 1973 PK - 5 it is being worked on now for settral iDQtlths, legislation for Teachers Collective Bargaining. There has been a tremendous amo1D1t of work done on that. We introduced and had pas_sed through the Bouse legislation concerning notice for the termination so that when an inclustey wants to terminate or wants to close up, it has to give notice and give eight weeks or twelve weeks notice or pay the employees if they do not receive the notice. The honourable Leader of the Opposition sort of gave a little sneer at that this afterJtoon, in his usual little nasty way. when he said this was not a bad piece of legislation but it did not break any ground, 3492

April 3, 1973 Tape no. ~1 Page 1 - MRW was only copied from another provincesu though it were just a mere nothing, aa though that little sneer meant that it was just no good at all. Why did not the honourable gentlemen opposite introduce it when they were in office? They did not bother to introduce it. That legislation was in effect I believe in Ontario. The legislation brought before this House, Ontario waa the example for it. But that does not mean to say, Mr. Chairman, - the fact is th.at it was not law before we introduced it to the House and it wu not law until it was enacted by the House.

It had to be our vill and our desire to correct that situation that caused it to be enacted into law. So any little sneers about where it originated from or you knowrit was not pioneering,are quite irrelevant and not to the point. That is something else that we have done in labour relations. The labour bodies in this province know today that they have free access to the government. There is no ill-will between the government and the labour movement. They have free access. They are not boycotted. Nobody is trying to stamp on them. Nobody is trying to do them down. They can have what politics they like.

They do not have to kowtow to us. They can be as independent and say what they like. That is the new atmosphere in this province. Two or three years ago, unless you were going to say the right thing, you kept your mouth shut. That has all been changed. The honourable gentlemen opposite are glorying in the wildcat strikes. Pure mischeviousness! The more wildcat strikes there are, it appears the more delighted the honourable member gets. Well there are a lot of wildcat strikes, Hr. Chairman. I am afraid that our Minister of Labour is not going to be able 3493

April 3. 1973 Tape oo. 4\Sq Page 2 to top that. He 1a oot a ooe-man superman. If there is general unrest. if th• relation• between employers and employees are so bad. (apparently there are wildcat strikes. as there are at COllle-by-Chance) this ia not omething the Mioiater of Labour can cure by himself. He can only provide a service or his people can ooly provi.de a service and attempt to get the parties together and conciliate it and get the thing resolved. The Minister of Labour cannot be held respoosible for every strike in the province.

In fact he cannot be held responsible for any strike that takes place in the province. He provides a service and does his best and the rest depends upon the reasonableness of the contending parties and how good the relatiooships are between them. The Cohen Report: The honourable gentleman gets on about the Cohen Report which vas received last year. The Cohen Report is a disappointment. I will give my own opinion on that. It is turgid. difficult to read. bifurcated mishmash. It was not what anybody expected. It took years. It was Chief Justice Rand who was originally appointed in 1966 or 1967.

That dragged on for several years. Then former Justice Rand died and Mr. Cohen was appointed and he dragged on for two or three years. All the while that they were dragging on, the Liberal Administration were very. very happy to be able to say;"Well,we have a royal commission study on this. We have a royal commission. We will not take any stand on this matter. It ia in the hands of Chief Justice Rand. Now it is in the hands of Mr. Cohen:• Well it is out of Mr. Cohen's hands now. It was a pity that four or five years went into it. 'nlere are suggestions in it that the Department of Labour are working on.

There is legislation before the cabinet now. proposed legislation. 'nle minister cannot give the details to this House now. the details of that legislation. Do not worry about the ex parte injunction. 'nle government said that that was going to be changed and it will be. 3494

April 3, 1973 Tape no. qg 1 Page 3 The details of what is in the legislation the minister cannot give this House until the legislation is presented to the House and until the cabinet has given final approval. The honourable gentleman mentioned an injunction yesterday • What relevance it has, I do not kn01o1. That was not an ex parte injunction,l do happen to know that. That matter was argued by both parties before the court issued it. Finally, Mr. Chairman - well morale was mentioned about workers and so on but they are not looking for information. We know that what this is a propaganda parade. It is too bad, Mr.

Chairman, that because of the Goebbels technique, the techniqure of the repeated exaggeration, the repeated distortion, the half-truth, the half-fals~hood, repeated over and over,which is the technique of the official opposition,that I have to bring this point up again. It was discussed here last night. It will be discussed I suppose another half a dozen times. The Leader of the Opposition discussed it today, his own snide and jejune manner. The honourable gentleman does not understand that word. He does not know whether it is parliamentary or not. I thought I would be safe.

Now to come back to the silly point that the honourable Leader of the Opposition got into with, "We have threatened the anions; we have threatened the teachers, the firemen, the policemen and the civil service union." It is too bad that it is only a two party system. If the official opposition opposite are the only alternative that thi  government have, it is a sad, sad shape that the province is in today. To think that the only alternative to us is right there,which is a prospect that would almost make one flee the province in despair. The honourable gentleman opposite - there might be some hope in him.

What has been said? What are these wild threats, these shakings that have terrified 34!)5

April 3, 19 73 Tape no 9$1 Pa