1972 Legislative Session: 1st Session, 30th Parliament

HANSARD

The following electronic version is for informational purposes

only.

The printed version remains the official version.

Official Report of

DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

(Hansard)

TUESDAY, OCTOBER 17, 1972

Afternoon Sitting

[ Page 1 ]

The House met at 3 p.m.

This being the first day of the first meeting of the 30th

Legislative Assembly of the Province of British Columbia for the

dispatch of business, pursuant to a Proclamation of Colonel the

Honourable John R. Nicholson, P.C., O.B.E., Q.C., L.L.D.,

Lieutenant-Governor of the Province, dated July 24, 1972, the

members took their seats, after having taken the prescribed oath

and having signed the Parliamentary Roll.

Colonel the Honourable John R. Nicholson, P.C., O.B.E., Q.C.,

L.L.D., Lieutenant-Governor of the Province, having entered the

House, took his seat on the Throne.

HON. E. HALL (Provincial Secretary): Members of the

legislative assembly, I am commanded by His Honour the

Lieutenant-Governor to announce that he does not see fit to

declare the cause of his summoning you at this time and will not

do so until you have chosen a Speaker to preside over your

honourable body. His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor hopes to be

able to declare during the afternoon his reasons for calling you

together.

His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor was pleased to retire from

the House.

MR. H.D. DENT (Skeena): Mr. Clerk, I move that Gordon Hudson

Dowding, Esquire, Member for Burnaby-Edmonds electoral district,

do take the Speaker's chair to preside over the meetings of this

assembly.

MR. P.L. McGEER (Vancouver–Point Grey): I second the

motion.

MR. J.R. CHABOT (Columbia River): I move, seconded by the Hon.

Member for South Peace River (Mr. Phillips), that Garde Basil

Gardom, Esquire, member for Vancouver–Point Grey electoral

district, do take the Speaker's chair and preside over the

meetings of this assembly. Moved by me and seconded by the member

from South Peace River. I think what I'm doing today is moving a

very impartial man to take the Speaker's chair, a man who has

shown his impartiality.

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: This is the one occasion where there may

be two motions before the House at the same time, but they are

regarded as one motion. If you speak to one you are speaking to

both. Traditionally the debate is short. It is limited strictly

to the qualifications of the two nominees for the position.

Procedure is that I shall put the first motion first. If that

carries then the other motion is out of order because the

position of Speaker is no longer vacant.

MR. G.B. GARDOM (Vancouver–Point Grey): Mr. Clerk, I would

like to make a statement to the House because this is a

repetition of an honour afforded to me in 1969, and it perhaps

today well demonstrates the inconsistency of political times and

political tides. I was at that time approached and my consent to

stand was then obtained. I very much appreciate the gesture

today, Mr. Clerk, but I have not been approached and I have not

had the opportunity to consult with my colleagues and with every

respect I must respectfully decline.

MR. J.R. CHABOT (Columbia River): Mr. Clerk, I just want to

clarify a point. I am sure that the government will see fit to

nominate this man, because in the past they've indicated very

clearly their support for him and I think they have a

responsibility to be consistent in this legislature.

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: The question is that Gordon Hudson Dowding

take the Speaker's chair to preside over the meetings of this

assembly.

Motion approved.

[ Page 2 ]

MR. SPEAKER: Honourable Members, permit me to return my humble

acknowledgements to the House and to express my grateful thanks

for the great honour you have been pleased to confer upon me by

choosing me to be your Speaker. Traditionally I can say a few

more words, and it's the last time I can make a speech. I would

further say that I envy my honourable friend from Point Grey at

this moment, who's sitting there. I also wish to say that eight

Speakers have been killed by the King in early days for bringing

in bad news from this assembly. I rather hope that in the future

it will be an orderly House. I would ask you further to take a

short recess and request you to remain in your seats. Thank

you.

The House took recess.

The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair.

Prayers.

CLERK ASSISTANT:

Office

of the Deputy Provincial Secretary,

Parliament Buildings,

Victoria, British Columbia,

October 2, 1972

Mr. E.K. DeBeck,

Clerk of the Legislative Assembly,

Parliament Buildings,

Victoria, British Columbia.

Dear Sir:

Re: General Election, August 30, 1972

His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor,

by his proclamation issued on the 24th day of July 1972, was pleased to dissolve

the legislative assembly of the province and it was necessary to hold elections

to fill vacancies caused by such dissolution. The elections were duly held,

pursuant to the provisions of the Provincial Elections Act. I transmit, herewith,

a certificate of the Chief Electoral Officer and the Registrar General of Voters,

setting forth the names of the members who have been elected in the electoral

districts indicated on the certificate.

Yours very

truly,

L.J. Wallace,

Deputy Provincial Secretary.

Enclosure.

[ Page 3 ]

September

29, 1972,

Chief Electoral Officer,

Registrar General of Voters.

L.J. Wallace, Esq.,

Deputy Provincial Secretary.

Dear Sir:

Re: General Election, August 30, 1972

The 29th Legislative Assembly was

dissolved on July the 24th, 1972, and writs were made returnable on September

30th, 1972. Because of a request made under

section 1221 c of the Provincial

Elections Act, for a recheck in the Vancouver–Little Mountain electoral district,

the date of the return of the writ from this district was amended to October

10th, 1972, and then further amended to October 12th, 1972. October the 12th,

1972, was also the date set for the return of the writ of the South Peace River

electoral district. The extension of time was made necessary after a judicial

recount was sought and granted under

section 131 of the aforementioned Act.

August 16, 1972 was designated

as a day for the nomination of candidates, and August 30, 1972 was designated

as polling day.

All writs with the exception of

those of the aforementioned Vancouver–Little Mountain and South Peace River

electoral districts have been returned.

I hereby certify that the following

members have been elected to represent their respective electoral districts

as set out hereunder.

Alberni — Robert Evans Skelly

Atlin — Frank Arthur Calder

Boundary-Similkameen — Francis Xavier Richter

Burnaby-Edmonds — Gordon Hudson Dowding

Burnaby North — Eileen Elizabeth Dailly

Burnaby-Willingdon — James Lorimer

Cariboo — Alexander Vaughan Fraser

Chilliwack — Harvey Wilfred Schroeder

Columbia River — James A. Chabot

Comox — Karen Sanford

Coquitlam — David Barrett

Cowichan-Malahat — Robert Martin Strachan

Delta — Carl Liden

Dewdney — Peter Carson Rolston

Esquimalt — James Henry Gorst

Fort George — A. Alfred Nunweiler

Kamloops — Gerald Hamilton Anderson

Kootenay — Leo Thomas Nimsick

Langley — Robert H. McClelland

Mackenzie — Donald Frederick Lockstead

Nanaimo — David Daniel Stupich

Nelson-Creston — Lorne Nicolson

New Westminster — Dennis G. Cocke

North Okanagan — Patricia J. Jordan

North Peace River — Dean Edward Smith

North Vancouver-Capilano — David Morris Brousson

[ Page 4 ]

North Vancouver–Seymour — Colin Stuart Gabelmann

Oak Bay — George Scott Wallace

Omineca — Douglas Tynwald Kelly

Prince Rupert — Graham Richard Lea

Revelstoke-Slocan — William Stewart King

Richmond — Harold Steves

Rossland-Trail — Christopher D'Arcy

Saanich and the Islands — Hugh Austin Curtis

Shushwap — Donald Emerson Lewis

Skeena — Hartley Douglas Dent

South Okanagan — William Andrew Cecil Bennett

Surrey — Ernest Hall

Vancouver-Burrard — Rosemary Brown, Norman Levi

Vancouver Centre — Emery Oakland Barnes, Gary Vernon Lauk

Vancouver East — Alexander Barrett Macdonald, Robert Arthur Williams

Vancouver–Point Grey — Garde Basil Gardom, Patrick Lucy McGeer

Vancouver South — Jack Radford, Daisy Webster

Victoria — Newell R. Morrison, David Alexander Anderson

West Vancouver–Howe Sound — Louis Allan Williams

Yale-Lillooet — William Leonard Hartley

Yours

truly,

K.L. Morton,

Chief Electoral Officer

and Registrar General of Voters.

Office

of the Deputy Provincial

Secretary,

Parliament Buildings,

Victoria, British Columbia,

October 10, 1972.

Mr. E.K. DeBeck,

Clerk of the Legislative Assembly.

Dear Sir:

R e: General Election, August 30, 1972

I transmit herewith a certificate

of the Chief Electoral Officer and Registrar General of Voters putting forth

the names of the Members who have been elected to represent the South Peace

River Electoral District, and the Vancouver–Little Mountain electoral district.

Yours very

truly,

L.J. Wallace,

Deputy Provincial Secretary.

[ Page 5 ]

Chief Electoral Officer,

L.J. Wallace Esq.,

Deputy Provincial Secretary.

Sir:

The return of the writs of the

South Peace River and Vancouver Little-Mountain electoral districts now being

complete, I hereby certify that the following have been elected to represent

the aforementioned electoral districts.

South Peace River — Donald McGray Phillips

Vancouver Little-Mountain — Roy Thomas Cummings, Phyllis Florence Young

Yours truly,

K.L. Morton,

Chief Electoral Officer

and Registrar General of Voters.

HON. E. HALL (Provincial Secretary): Mr. Speaker, I move,

seconded by the Hon. Minister of Education (Hon. Mrs. Dailly)

that the letters of the Deputy Provincial Secretary and the

certificates of the Chief Electoral Officer of the results of the

elections of members be entered upon the journals of the

House.

Motion approved.

His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor re-entered the House and

took his seat on the Throne.

MR. SPEAKER: May it please Your Honour, the House of Assembly

have elected me as their Speaker, though I am but little able to

fulfill the important duties thus assigned to me. If in the

performance of those duties I should at any time fall into error

I pray that the faults be imputed to me, and not to the assembly

whose servant I am, and who, through me, the better to enable

them to discharge their duty to the Queen and to the country,

humbly claim all their undoubted rights and privileges.

Especially that they may have the freedom of speech in their

debates, access to Your Honour's person at all seasonable times

and that their proceedings may receive from Your Honour the most

favourable

interpretation.

HON. MR. HALL: Mr. Speaker, I am commanded by His Honour the

Lieutenant-Governor to declare to you that he freely confides in

the duty and attachment of the House of Assembly to Her Majesty's

person and Government, and not doubting that their respective

proceedings will be conducted with wisdom, temper, and prudence,

he grants, and upon all occasions will recognize and allow, their

constitutional privileges.

I am commanded also, to assure you that the assembly shall

have ready access to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor upon all

seasonable occasions, and that their proceedings as well as your

words and actions will constantly receive from him the most

favourable construction.

SPEECH FROM THE THRONE

HON. JOHN. R. NICHOLSON (Lieutenant-Governor): Congratulations

and good wishes.

[ Page 6 ]

Mr. Speaker and Members of the Legislative Assembly. I address

you today probably for the last time as the Lieutenant-Governor

of British Columbia.

In bidding you welcome to this, the Special Session of the

30th Parliament of British Columbia, I express the earnest hope

that the wise council of my Ministers and the support of the

Legislature will remedy some of the emerging and difficult

problems in our province today. I desire also, to express at this

time on your behalf and that of all British Columbia our good

wishes to my successor.

It was with deep regret that I learned of the death of Mr.

Harold Merilees, Member of this Legislature of the 29th

Parliament who fought long and hard against adversity and ill

health.

The sudden passing of Dudley Little, a Member of this

Legislature for the constituency of Skeena for the past 12 years,

has saddened all his associates throughout the province.

This special session will see the first guaranteed minimum

income of $200 per month for senior citizens established anywhere

in North America. It is this Government's sincere attempt to

pioneer legislation for the senior citizens of this province.

Without their energy, dedication and commitment to the province

in its early days none of us would be in a position to enjoy our

great province as much as we do today. This program will cost a

substantial amount of money. But this wealthy province has the

funds available and it is a matter of some urgency that these

funds be put into the hands of our senior citizens as a right as

quickly as possible.

You will be asked by my government to consider the following

bills at this special session of the Legislature.

An Act to Amend the Land Registry Act

An Act to Amend the Gift Tax

Act

3. Guaranteed Minimum Income Assistance Act

4. Handicapped Persons

Income Assistance Act

An Act to Amend the Mediation Commission Act

An Act to Amend the Male Minimum Wage Act

An Act to Amend the

Public Schools Act

An Act to Amend the Municipal Act

9. Tobacco

Advertising Restraint Act Repeal Act

10. Tobacco Products Act

11. An

Act to Amend the Government Liquor Act

12. Legislative Procedure and

Practice Inquiry Act

13. Special Allowances Reduction Act, 1972

Hon. Members, I leave you now to discharge your legislative

duties in the full confidence that your deliberations will be in

the best interests of all our citizens, and may divine guidance

attend your labours.

MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Members, in order to prevent mistakes, I

have obtained a copy of His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor's

speech.

AN ACT TO AMEND THE LAND REGISTRY ACT

HON. A.B. MACDONALD (Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I ask

leave to introduce Bill No. 1, intituled

An Act to Amend the Land

Registry Act.

Leave granted.

HON. MR. MACDONALD: I move that the bill be introduced and now

read a first time

Motion approved.

HON. MR. MACDONALD: Mr. Speaker, I move that the bill be

placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next

sitting of the House after today.

[ Page 7 ]

Motion approved.

MR. N.R. MORRISON (Victoria): Mr. Speaker, it is our desire on

this side of the House to expedite the business of legislation in

every way possible. In order to accomplish this we would like to

introduce proposals to legislate from this side of the House…

MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! Would the Hon. Member be seated?

The rule on opening day is that there must be a pro forma bill of

the people which has now been put to the Members. Any further

legislation to be brought in has to be by notice unless there are

bills brought in by message which can be brought in at any time.

Therefore the Hon. Member is out of order.

MR. R.E. SKELLY (Alberni): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by

the Second Member for Vancouver-Burrard (Mr. Levi) that Mr.

Hartley Douglas Dent (Skeena) be appointed Deputy Speaker for

this session of the legislative assembly.

Motion approved.

HON. MR. HALL: Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present a

message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor.

LEGISLATIVE PROCEDURE AND PRACTICE INQUIRY ACT

MR. SPEAKER: His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor herewith

transmits a bill intituled Legislative Procedure and Practice

Inquiry Act and recommends the same to the legislative

assembly.

HON. MR. HALL: Mr. Speaker, I move the said message and the

bill accompanying the same be referred to the Committee of the

Whole House forthwith.

Motion approved.

House in committee on Bill No. 12.

HON. MR. HALL: Mr. Chairman, I move the committee rise

recommending the introduction of the bill.

Motion approved.

The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair.

Bill No. 12 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be

placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next

sitting of the House after today.

HON. MR. MACDONALD: Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present

a message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor.

TOBACCO ADVERTISING RESTRAINT ACT REPEAL ACT

MR. SPEAKER: His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor herewith

transmits a bill intituled Tobacco Advertising Restraint Act

Repeal Act and recommends the same to the legislative

assembly.

HON. MR. MACDONALD: Mr. Speaker, I move the said message and bill accompanying

the same be referred forthwith to a Committee of the Whole House.

Motion approved.

[ Page 8 ]

House in committee on Bill No. 9.

HON. MR. MACDONALD: Mr. Chairman, I move that the committee

rise recommending the introduction of the bill.

Motion approved.

The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair.

Bill No. 9 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be

placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next

sitting of the House after today.

HON. MR. MACDONALD: Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present

a message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor.

TOBACCO PRODUCTS ACT

MR. SPEAKER: His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor transmits

herewith a bill intituled Tobacco Products Act and recommends the

same to the legislative assembly.

HON. MR. MACDONALD: Mr. Speaker, I move that the said message

and the bill accompanying the same be referred to a Committee of

the Whole House forthwith.

Motion approved.

House in committee on Bill No. 10.

HON. MR. MACDONALD: Mr. Chairman, I move that the committee

rise recommending the introduction of the bill.

Motion approved.

The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair.

Bill No. 10 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be

placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next

sitting of the House after today.

HON. MR. MACDONALD: Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present

a message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor.

AN ACT TO AMEND THE GOVERNMENT LIQUOR ACT

MR. SPEAKER: His Honour, the Lieutenant-Governor transmits

herewith a bill intituled

An Act to Amend the Government Liquor

Act and recommends the same to the legislative assembly.

House in committee on Bill No. 11.

HON. MR. MACDONALD: Mr. Chairman, I move that the committee

rise recommending — the introduction of the bill.

Motion approved.

The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair.

Bill No. 11 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be

placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next

sitting after today.

[ Page 9 ]

HON. D. BARRETT (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to

present a message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor.

AN ACT TO AMEND THE GIFT TAX ACT

MR. SPEAKER: His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor transmits

herewith a bill intituled

An Act to Amend the Gift Tax Act and

recommends the same to the legislative assembly.

House in committee on Bill No. 2.

HON. MR. BARRETT: Mr. Chairman, I move that the committee rise

recommending the introduction of the bill.

Motion approved.

The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair.

Bill No. 2 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be

placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next

sitting after today.

HON. W.S. KING (Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, I have the

honour to present a message from His Honour the

Lieutenant-Governor.

AN ACT TO AMEND THE MALE MINIMUM WAGE ACT

MR. SPEAKER: His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor transmits

herewith a bill intituled

An Act to Amend the Male Minimum Wage

Act and recommends the same to the legislative assembly.

House in committee on Bill No. 6.

HON. MR. KING: Mr. Chairman, I move the committee rise

recommending introduction of the bill.

The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair.

Bill No. 6 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be

placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next

sitting after today.

HON. MR. KING: Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present a

message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor.

AN ACT TO AMEND THE MEDIATION COMMISSION ACT

MR. SPEAKER: His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor transmits

herewith a bill intituled

An Act to Amend the Mediation

Commission Act and recommends the same to the legislative

assembly.

House in committee on Bill No. 5.

HON. MR. KING: Mr. Chairman, I move that the committee rise

recommending the introduction of the bill.

Motion approved.

The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair.

Bill No. 5 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be

placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next

sitting after today.

HON. E.E. DAILLY (Minister of Education): I have the honour to

present a message from His-Honour the Lieutenant-Governor.

[ Page 10 ]

AN ACT TO AMEND THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS ACT

MR. SPEAKER: His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor transmits

herewith a bill intituled

An Act to Amend the Public Schools Act

and recommends the same to the legislative assembly.

House in committee on Bill No. 7.

HON. MRS. DAILLY: Mr. Chairman, I move that the committee rise

recommending the introduction of the bill.

Motion approved.

The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair.

Bill No. 7 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be

placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next

sitting after today.

HON. J.G. LORIMER (Minister of Municipal Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, I have the honour to present a message from His Honour

the Lieutenant-Governor.

AN ACT TO AMEND THE MUNICIPAL ACT

MR. SPEAKER: His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor transmits

herewith a bill intituled

An Act to Amend the Municipal Act and

recommends the same to the legislative assembly.

House in committee on Bill No. 8.

HON. MR. LORIMER: Mr. Chairman, I move that the committee rise

recommending introduction of the bill.

Motion approved.

The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair.

Bill No. 8 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be

placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next

sitting after today.

HON. N. LEVI (Minister of Rehabilitation): Mr. Speaker, I have

the honour to present a message from His Honour the

Lieutenant-Governor.

AN ACT TO AMEND THE GUARANTEED MINIMUM INCOME ASSISTANCE

ACT

MR. SPEAKER: His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor transmits

herewith a bill intituled Guaranteed Minimum Income Assistance

Act, and recommends the same, to the legislative assembly.

HON. MR. LEVI: Mr. Speaker, I move that the said message and the bill

accompanying the same be referred to a Committee of the Whole House, forth-with.

House in committee on Bill No. 3.

HON. MR. LEVI: Mr. Chairman, I move that the committee rise

recommending the introduction of the bill.

Motion approved.

The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair.

Bill No. 3 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be

placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next

sitting after today.

[ Page 11 ]

HON. MR. LEVI: Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present a

message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor.

AN ACT TO AMEND THE HANDICAPPED PERSONS INCOME ASSISTANCE

ACT

MR. SPEAKER: His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor transmits

herewith a bill intituled

An Act to Amend the Handicapped Persons

Income Assistance Act and recommends the same to the legislative

assembly.

House in committee on Bill No. 4.

HON. MR. LEVI: Mr. Chairman, I move that the committee rise

recommending the introduction of the bill.

Motion approved.

The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair.

Bill No. 4 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be

placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next

sitting after today.

HON. MR. BARRETT: I move, seconded by the Provincial

Secretary, that the speech of His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor

be taken into consideration at the next sitting of the House and

that this order have precedence over all other business, except

introduction of bills, until disposed of.

MR. F.X. RICHTER (Boundary-Similkameen): I move, seconded by

the Hon. Member for North Peace River (Mr. Smith) that the motion

be amended by striking out the words "at the next sitting of the

House" and substituting therefore the word "forthwith", so that

the motion will read "That the speech of His Honour the

Lieutenant-Governor be taken into consideration forthwith and

that this order have precedence over all other business, except

the introduction of bills, until disposed of".

MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Members, in examining the amendment — and I

don't have a copy here, I would like a copy of the amendment. Do

you have one available? Thank you. I wonder if the Hon. Member

would sign the amendment, please? Every motion and amendment must

be signed.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh, oh.

MR. SPEAKER: Now there is an amendment to the main motion,

Hon. Members, that appears to be in order unless any Member has

any objection thereto on any grounds or any point of order.

HON. MR. BARRETT: I want to say very clearly that the

Government opposes the amendment to the motion. The motion is

obviously meant to delay, rather than to proceed with matters. It

was not even signed or written properly, it was obviously a

maneuver to delay the House. At no time did the Whip or the

Leader of the Opposition come to my office to indicate that he

wanted an expedition of the business although the invitation was

extended to him, unlike previous experiences. The invitation was

extended to his office to come and discuss the business of the

day. He did not come to my office, he is obviously playing

politics and I am asking the House to defeat this amendment.

MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Members, before the Hon. Member who is

rising in his place speaks, I want to point out to the Hon. Members that the

only issue or question before the House is the priority of consideration

of His Honour's speech. That's to what the debate should be

directed.

MR. D.E. SMITH (North Peace River): In speaking to the

amendment, Mr. Speaker, the amendment is in order in that this is

an emergency session, so called. The business of this session is

to expediate….

[ Page 12 ]

Interjections by Hon. Members.

MR. SMITH: O.K., whatever you like…to expedite, to deal

with the business which we have heard brought before this House. We

have already had a number of bills introduced and we would like to get on

with that business so all that we have to do is approve this motion and

we can get right into the business that this session was called to

determine.

HON. R.M. STRACHAN (Minister of Highways): Mr. Speaker, we are

operating under rules that were bequeathed to us by a previous

administration. Unfortunately, these are the rules abiding in

this House, and I would refer you to

section 53 of our standing

orders which indicate that it's against the rules of this House

to amend any motion to refer and what we are doing in this motion

before the House is to refer His Honour's address to the House at

this next sitting of the House. These are the standing orders

that were bequeathed to us by the previous administration. Until

you, Sir, have a chance to look into those standing orders and

correct them, unfortunately we are bound with this bequest from

the previous administration, and I ask you to rule the motion out

of order.

MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Members, I think I made it plain — I hope I

did — that I'm not ruling the amendment out of order, because it

sets a different time for consideration of His Honour's speech,

which is either today or tomorrow according to whether you

accept the amendment or you accept the main motion. Therefore if

we are finished with the debating, we could deal with a question

on the merits on priority. Do you wish it to be debated today or

tomorrow as far as the House is concerned. I would like to put

the question on the amendment, unless there is any other debate

on the question.

The amendment is that the motion be amended by

striking out the words "at the next sitting of the House" and

substituting therefore the word "forthwith". — So that the motion

will read "that the speech of His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor

be taken into consideration forthwith and that this order

have precedence over all other business except the introduction

of bills until disposed of".

Motion negatived on the following division:

YEAS-14

Gardom

Phillips

McGeer

Chabot

Schroeder

Fraser

Smith

Bennett

Morrison

Williams, L.A.

Jordan

Richter

McClelland

Anderson, D.A.

NAYS-39

Liden

Dent

Strachan

Gabelmann

Lewis

Cummings

Dailly

Skelly

Webster

D'Arcy

Barrett.

Hartley

Kelly

Sanford

Macdonald

Calder

Curtis

Radford

Hall

King

Steves

Brown

Gorst

Cocke

Barnes

Nicholson

Lockstead

Williams, R.A.

Anderson, G.H.

Nunweiler

Young

Lorimer

Rolston

Stupich

Lea

Levi

'Wallace

Nimsick

Lauk

MR. SPEAKER: Now, on the main motion

MR. D.A. ANDERSON (Victoria): My amendment would be, Sir, that the motion

be amended by adding, after the word "bills" the words "oral questions by Members

for a period of 30 minutes to commence immediately

[ Page 13 ]

following introduction of bills," and have here a

signed copy. I do bring this forward bearing in mind the comments

made a moment ago by the Member for Malahat (Hon. Mr. Strachan)

who said that we were stuck with the previous rules. We are not,

Sir. We may by unanimous consent of the Members here change the

rules and permit the question period.

This amendment does not conflict with the previous bill

passed. The bill, the Legislative Procedures and Practice Inquiry

Act, deals only with an inquiry by your honour in terms of future

sittings of this House. My amendment would be of course, only for

the next few days.

HON. MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, I bring your attention to the

bill that was introduced this afternoon referred to by my

honourable colleague, the Legislative Procedure and Practice

Inquiry Act. My colleague has introduced an amendment dealing

with one specific which in effect is dealt with by the whole

gamut of parliamentary reform that we all desperately want in

this province.

To do this properly we need the time of the total House. Too

long in the history of this province we have rammed through

things without everyone in this House having the opportunity of

cautiously and prudently participating in extensive debate

through committee and through this House.

Interjections by Hon. Members.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, order….

HON. MR. BARRETT: …we want progress and I suggest…

Interjections by Hon. Members.

HON. MR. BARRETT: …that it's out of order, Mr.

Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Honourable Members, I think I must rule the

proposed amendment out of order because we are still functioning

under the rules that we have today. And under those rules the

Hon. Member proposes to change them to provide for an oral

question period for 30 minutes — setting a particular amount of

time which does not exist in our rules. There's no way under

Standing Orders today that that could be achieved without the

unanimous consent of the House. But in the meantime the House has

already anticipated the matter by placing a bill on the order

paper, which deals with the very question at issue. And under a

method that is different than proposed in this amendment I must

therefore, regretfully rule it out of order.

MR. P.L. McGEER (Vancouver–Point Grey): Mr. Speaker, on a

point of order. May I draw your attention, Sir, to a ruling by a

previous Speaker of this House which was made following the

introduction of the standing orders which we are now guided by.

You will note that our standing orders were adopted February 20,

1930. The Honourable Mr. Davie who was Speaker during the 1932

session had this to say: and he was laying down the

constitutional propriety of questions. He said:

"…a certain number of oral questions are permitted in practice

by Members without notice before the orders of the day are called.

That these are merely allowed by courtesy in connection with

the business of the House or…"

and this is the important part, Mr. Speaker

"…with very urgent and important matters of public concern."

In other words, the Honourable Mr. Davie did rule that oral

questions of urgent public importance were in order. In view of

that I think that we would be going by the rulings of previous

Speakers made during the tenure of these House rules. Therefore,

the motion put forward by the Leader of the Liberal Party is

quite in order.

[ Page 14 ]

MR. SPEAKER: I suggest to the Hon. Member that the occasion

referred to there by the then Speaker of the House is not

applicable to a situation where there is a bill before the House

at the present time. For the first point.

Secondly, if he were proposing an oral question period at this

moment he would be out of order because that would have to take

place — were it permitted — at the beginning of the session and

that is not at this time in the proceedings today. On that

ground I must respectfully again rule it out of order at this

time.

There will be ample debate on the subject of the advisability

of it in the bill, I would presume.

MR. G.B. GARDOM (Vancouver–Point Grey): Mr. Speaker, if I may

direct myself to your ruling and the analogy that you made with

the bill.

The bill, Mr. Speaker, does not propose to bring into effect

what the subject matter of the amendment is. The bill merely is a

bill of inquiry as the Hon. the Leader of the Liberal Party

stated and I think that there's a distinction there that your

honour should pay attention to.

MR. SPEAKER: Well, first of all, the practice of addressing

the Chair in that fashion is only in Ottawa and not in this

House.

Secondly, in regard to the question of the amendment it reads

"oral questions by Members for a period of 30 minutes to commence

immediately following the introduction of bills", The question

has been put before this House. It is on the order paper now in

the form of a bill. A message bill that deals with all these

questions of amending the standing orders. You are in effect,

trying to amend the standing orders at this moment when there is

a bill that has priority on that subject and you can't do by a

motion or an amendment. I'm sorry.

MR. McGEER: Mr. Speaker, on a further point of order…

MR. SPEAKER: Well….

MR. McGEER: …the point that we raised originally was that

we were not amending the standing rules of the House in any way.

What we were merely doing was recommending to you that the

rulings of previous Speakers be followed. And we well recognize

that it has been the practice of the previous government to

ignore the Speaker's ruling as a matter of convenience. And it

has been our hope that the new government would really have

wanted to reform the practice by accepting oral questions from

the Opposition.

MR. SPEAKER: Well, Honourable Member, I think the Member has

been here long enough as I have to remember that this was put to

the House and the House decided against the Honourable Member's

submission. In the circumstances I have no other course but to

rule it out-of order and I so rule it out of order.

Interjection by an Hon. Member.

MR. SPEAKER: Next business please….

Interjection by an Hon. Member.

MR. SPEAKER: No, you have the question on the main motion and

that, in case you're not clear on it now after all this, is that

the speech of His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor be taken into

consideration at the next sitting of the House and that this

order have precedence over all other business except introduction

of bills until disposed of.

Motion approved.

[ Page 15 ]

HON. MR. HALL: Mr. Speaker, I move seconded by the Honourable

the Attorney General (Hon. Mr. Macdonald) that the Votes and

Proceedings of this House be printed, being first perused by Mr.

Speaker and that he do appoint the printing thereof and that no

person but such as he shall appoint do presume do print the

same.

Motion approved.

Hon. Mr. Barrett moves adjournment of the House.

MR. McGEER: Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: You've heard the motion. All those in favour say

aye. In the middle of a vote?

MR. McGEER: On a point of order before we adjourn.

Interjections by Hon. Members.

MR. McGEER: …Mr. Speaker….

MR. SPEAKER: Would the Hon. Member be seated please?

MR. McGEER: On a point of order.

MR. SPEAKER: You're in the middle of a vote….

HON. MR. BARRETT: On adjournment.

MR. SPEAKER: …on adjournment of the House.

MR. McGEER: No. This is on a point of order before adjournment

of the House. A point of order is always in order.

AN HON. MEMBER: No. The motion….

AN HON. MEMBER: The motion….

MR. SPEAKER: Would the Honourable Member pray be seated for a

minute? I'll try to explain.

We're in the middle of a vote. The question was put. We

started to vote when the Hon. Member rose. I would suggest he's

too late. All those who are opposed….

AN HON. MEMBER: I haven't talked once and I'm….

MR. McGEER: That's what I wish to draw your attention to, Sir. It is

the fact that we're violating the standing orders of the House by not having

a motion to set up select standing committees as required under standing order

MR. SPEAKER: Then I suggest that it be put on the orders for

tomorrow.

AN HON. MEMBER: Mandatory.

MR. SPEAKER: You've heard the question that the House do now

adjourn.

Motion approved.

The House adjourned at 4:15 p.m.

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