Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 48B (31st Legislature, 3rd Session)

31-3-48b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

.. • .. -. .. .. ISSN 054 2- 5492 Third Session - Thirty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 28 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Harry E. Graham Speaker VOL. XXVII No. 488 8:00 P.M. Thursday, April 26, 1979 Printed by the Office of the Queens Print er. Prov1nce of Manitoba

.. LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA Thursday, April 26, 1979 Time: 8:00 p.m . SUPPLY - FITNESS, RECREATION AND SPORT MR. CHAIRMAN: Comm ittee come to order. I'd like to refer mem bers to where we left off, Resolution 55, 1.(bX1) - the Member for The Pas. • MR. McBRYDE : Mr. Chairman, some genera l questions for the Minister, but this afternoon the Minister mentioned he had been at the Boston Marathon and I wonder if he could share with us • his time at that event , before we proceed . • ... MR. CHAIRMAN : Order please. Would the Member for The Pas repeat that please. The Honourable Minister . MR.

BANMAN: No, I got it. No, Mr. Chairman . We were a fair group of Manitobans running in the Marathon . Some did very well; I was not one of them , but the best Manitoban did it in two hours and 22 minutes, and came in eightieth. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman , I would just like to express my profound disappointment that the Minister was not runn ing in that particular event , but perhaps we will see him in the Manitoba Marathon. He may have a chance to show his stuff. MR. BANMAN: Yes, as a matter of fact, we have, in connection with that particular event, it looks like it's going to be a fairly big event.

They have something, I believe, in the neighbourhood of 2,000 applicat ions already and they ant icipate between 8,000 to 10,000 people. So it should be quite an event , and I guess I would ask that all members maybe participate in that. It's going to be a little type of a marathon where you can exit every two miles , so you can leave the race with a little bit of dignity . In the Boston Marathon, you have got to run the 26 miles and you've got people lined from one end of the race to the other and when you leave you don 't get any time or anything, you just leave and that's it.

So I th ink the organizers here are pretty excited at the things that can happen and we're hopeful that it will trigger some participation on behalf of many of the Manitobans . I might also point out that they have been doing a job of going out to rural areas holding workshops in connection with the fitness aspect of it and are telling me that they are being very well received in centres such as Dauphin , Morden and others. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, this is probably one of the few cases where we might be willing to follow this Minister . Mr.

Chairman , I wonder if at this point it would be worthwhile for the Minister to give us the staffing breakdown and the comparisons between previous years and now, in the various categories of . . . MR. BANMAN: This particular

section deals with 19 SMYs . That is the same amount as was involved last year . In this particular group , as I mentioned before, there are three support staff for the Minister 's office , three Planning and Research staff , 11 Support Staff for Accounts Payable, Payrolls, Revenues , Typing Pool Personnel and Secretarial Duties. MR. McBRYDE: Could the Minister say that a little slower? MR. BANMAN: That's 3 for the Planning and Research Staff; 11 Support Staff for accoun ts payable , payrolls , for revenues, for typing pool personnel and secretarial duties . MR. McBDE: Mr.

Chairman, would the minister prefer to give us the breakdown for the whole department now, or as we come to each Section? 3195

Thursday, April 26, 1979 MR. BANMAN: Possibly as we go along, if that's okay with the mem ber. MR. McBRYDE: Well , Mr. Chairman, earlier this afternoon the minister mentioned the STEP students and I wonder if he cou ld give us some idea of how many STEP students there were last year , and where he expects to deploy them and how he expects to use the students ? MR. BANMAN : The number of STEP students are very much the same as last year .

As I mentioned 18 of them I think , will be going to the Bird 's Hill Day Camp Program ; we have some that will be out in the field ; 35 of them will be helping in different recreation works and we run a small camp for the handicapped called Whiskey Jack Camp at Red Rock, there's 3 that will be out there ; 2 in the Interlake for the training centre, the Gimli Training Centre ; 7 will go out to the sports bodies, the sports associations for assistance in their work throughout the summer months; 2 for Mantario then there 's some that will be involved in the cultural side . MR.

McBRYDE: The other part of the question, Mr. Chairman , was how many STEP students have there been in the past and another question - will some of these, or how many of these will be located in the northern region? MR. BANMAN: I understand that there will be 3 going out to the regional offices in northern Manitoba and the number is about the same as last year . MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, this might be a good point for the minister, a good

Section for the minister to explain the transfers of functions that we see over in the previous page in the Reconciliation Statement. Could he briefly explain what was transferred into his department? MR. BANMAN: Is he referring to the sort of general transfer, not with regards to the STEP students? MR. McBRYDE: No. MR. BANMAN: We of course broke away from two different departments , well, actually three. What happened is that the Department of Fitness and Amateur Sport which was in the Department of Health came over to join the Recreation

Section of the Tourism , Recreation , Cultural Affairs and then of course there was some people from Co-op Development. We took from Tourism , Recreation and Cultural Affairs 49.30 SMYs , from Department of Co-operative Development 7, from the Health and Social Development , Fitness and Amateur Sport

Section 22, from the Department of Industry and Commerce 2, and the .26 is Executive Council. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman , what were the two from Economic Development or Industry and Commerce, I guess he's talking about, what would those two be? MR. BANMAN: My excutive assistant and the one secretary . MR. CHAIRMAN: (b) (1)-pass - the Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: In my recollection, Mr. Chairman , this was one

section that had a number of New Careers staff in it , and I wonder if the Minister could bring us up to date on if there are any New Career staff left in this department and if so, how many have been reduced and where are those that are left if there are any left? MR. BANMAN: It should actually be dealt under 2.(

c) but I believe there are three New Careers people: one in Manigotagan, one in Wabowden and one in Cross Lake . MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr . Chairman , I wonder if the Minister could tell us what happened to the New Careers that were trained by this department and what has been the fate of those persons? MR. BANMAN: They left the prog ram. MR. McBRYDE : Is the Minister indicating they left the program voluntarily or there were no positions left when they finished their training? 3196 • • .. -.. -

Thursday, April 26, 1979 ~ MR. BANMAN: They were resignations. .. .... • .. MR. McBRYDE: So could the Minist er then report out of how many were in the department. MR. BANMAN: Six left the program . MR. McBRYDE: So in this particul ar

section of government there were nine new careerists and three have stayed and six have left. Mr. Chairman, I can recall being at a meeting when there were New Careers doing Recreation and at that particular training session for them there was 12 or 14 at least if not more and I wonder how that fits in with the Minister's numbers here , whether they 've overlooked some new careerists along the way? MR. BANMAN: This is all that came to our department.

The member will appreciate that the New Careers Program was training the people and then when the people were trained they'd come to our department and we got nine people out of which six have resigned and we are still employing three. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, it would be worthwh ile because I'm assuming the officials here would know full well how many were in the training program and so how many trained people were not taken on by the department and can the Minister or can his staff give the Minister any clue as to why the six people left the program? MR. BANMAN: No particular reason why they quit. MR.

McBRYDE: Is the Minister not able to reconcile those numbers that MR. BANMAN: We will have to check with the Department of Manpower now , the people that were in charge of the New Careers Program, to see exactly what they had on stream. But these were the people who , after graduating , came to us. We got nine and six have quit and , like I mentioned , we have now have one in Manigotagan, one in Wabowden and one in Cross Lake . MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, as I understand it, the nine people that would have come in would have received training and would have been then departmental staff for the department.

And it seems like an awful high turnover of staff. Is there the possibility that there wasn't the kind of support to these people from the remote areas that they would need to be able to carry out a successful recreation program? MR. BANMAN: They were placed in communities, Mr. Chairman , and there has to be community support if you're going to have a Rec. Director that is going to be successful. Recreation, as I pointed out before , is all forms , everything from possibly people doing macrame or pottery to other things.

There have been several programs in place through the Lotteries , which provide certain equipment for these different functions , and that has been taken advantage of. But first and foremost, for them to do a proper job they have tc have the support of the community and I guess that might be one of the areas where they might have had some trouble , but I understand this attrition happened in a period of time and that there was no mass resignation or anything like that. MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Chairman .

The other aspect that's needed, of course, is some departmental support and backup , and I can recall from our experience within Northern Affairs that there was sometimes more support services needed, more staff support needed, to assist people who had not been in the Civil Service before to adjust to that kind of a work situation . And I wonder if the Minister would care to comment on that , because the numbers are high , six out of nine leaving the program . MR. BANMAN: Well , Mr.

Chairman , there are, as I mentioned , two regional offices with a Recreation Specia list and Assistant, one in Thompson and one in The Pas. For instance , in eastern Manitoba we have one that is now in Manigotagan . We have a Recreation Director , who is in Beausejour, and it has an Assistant , which is not too far from Manigotagan, as the member will appreciate , plus we had another one who was working down in the Piney area , which is really not in a remote community either.

That particular person has left employment too, but the backup as far as departmental staff and that is concerned is there except that the work has to be done within the context of that community and the person who is involved in that particular program is one who, 3197

Thursday, April 26, 1979 he or she, has to go ahead and provide initiative and show some leadership in the community . MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, with this reduction in staff , where would this show up in terms of dollars and cents in the Estimates here? ~ MR. BANMAN: It's in the Northlands Agreement. MR. McBRYDE : Were all of the nine New Careers staff covered under the Northlands Agreement and shared under 60 cent dollars? MR.

BANMAN: I understand that there were provisions made in the last number of years for five SMY dealing with New Careers, mainly because of the turnover that was experienced in that and that that was under that Northlands cost-shared agreement. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the department made any etfort then to hire some of the people who had been trained because I'm sure the re were more than nine people overall trained in the recreation field . Were there any efforts made to hire some of the people trained?

The other problem that the Minister may not be aware of, or may be aware of, in this type of situation where New Careers were hired , I can recall, when we were in government , Mr.

Chairman, that there was of course pressure on the departments to fit these trained people into thEl department without any increase in staff man years, without any increase in budget and of course the people who were in the department were very hesitate to do this, to try to stretch their budget to accommodate this situation and therefore some departments were not unhappy when the New Careers were not taken on because they were unable to stretch their staff man year complement or their budget because of this.

So that is anothe r, I suppose , problem in terms of support or backup is that if the department is already strained , that they won't give this the kind of support necessary if they don 't particularly care if this staff person that they sort of inherit that were trained in another program or paid out of another

section of the budget, and I wonder if the Minister would care to comment on that aspect. MR. BANMAN: If the member will look at the figures , we had nine people working in this particular department and we had 48 in total. You can see that that almost 20 percent of our staff complement was New Careers at that time . So while that problem that the member mentions could possibly happen in certain areas where maybe the department feels that they wanted to use those SMYs for something else , this particular branch had done fairly well with regard to that .

I should mention, however , that in dealing with this particular program and in dealing with recreation for the north, what we have done in the southern areas , is have made grants available to organizations or communities who wish to organize their particula r recreation districts and that's possibly a route that we will be exp loring for some of the northern communities.

So in other words , you make a grant available to them for hiring of a recreation specialist or recreation director and then the community is the one that sees to it that that particular individual is one who is acceptable to the community, is working within that community to better the recreation facilities and the recreation quality there . MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman , there was at one time grants , I believe , came straight out of this department to community councils for recreation purposes . Now , I'm not sure whether that went on over a number of years or was it a one or two-shot effort? MR.

BANMAN: I know there are no recreation grants as such to community councils from my department. MR. McBRYDE: I wonder if the Minister, maybe he couldn 't answe r the question right now but he could double-check whether that was ever the case to see if my memory is failing me, Mr. Chairman . MR. BANMAN: The only program that we had is in a community where they hired a full-time recreation director and we wou ld give them a grant of $2,000 and no community councils , I understand , use that but other than that, the staff advises me that there was no such grant made .

We do have some programs where we provide sporting equipment and different things for northern and remote communities . They apply to us and that is a program that is funded out of 3198 .. .....

• " • Thursday, April 26, 1979 Lotteries and I understand that's been going on for some time and I think the last one was a few months , well, maybe about five or six months ago that we processed that one . MR. McBRYDE: Maybe , Mr. Chairman, since the Minister of Highways has left , I can ask a few more quest ions . I wonder if the Minister could fill me in, Mr.

Chairman , on the Lotteries Program and I have to apologize to the Ministe r that I haven 't followed it all that closely , so if he could just give me some general informatio n in term s of the breakdown of the Lotteries Program and the formulas for funding out of that program because, Mr. Chairman , I suppose my knowledge of it amounts to buying a few Western Express tickets because I haven 't followed this particular item in the Estimates procedure before nor had responsibility for it. MR. BANMAN: I wonder , Mr. Chairman, for the sake of sort of having some order in the thing , if we could leave that?

I don 't mind answering those questions, but if we could leave that until we get down to the Salary and I can give you a whole overview exactly what 's happening, if that's satisfactory to the members. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, the Minister would then be indicating that he would need no staff to answer our questions in terms of the Lotteries? MR. BANMAN: There might be a few things that we have to get but I've got everything broken down here fairly well. MR.

McBRYDE: I would find it, as a member of this committee , more convenient to have that information now and then there might be comments coming out of it during the Minister's Salary, but if the information were given now, then the questions could be answered while there were people here who might have information that the Minister doesn't keep at his fingertips. That would be my preference; I'll yield to the Minister's preference on this matter . MR. BANMAN: Well, we're sort of covering the waterfront here instead of sticking with one particular item.

I can assure the member that I've got all the stuff here and I would appreciate it if we could maybe tackle that Lotteries thing all at one time because it deals with Cultural Affairs, it deals with all kinds of things that have no bearing on this particular department and since the Manitoba Lotteries Commission is not run by the Department of Fitness, Recreation and Sport, it is a .. . MR. McBRYDE: Okay , we shouldn't be that long until we get to the Minister 's Salary anyway , Mr. Chairman , so we can wait for that . A couple of questions still coming out of this afternoon's questions.

One is the Minister mentioned, in answer to the questions of the Member for Transcona, he commented on the RehFit Centre, and I wonder if he could just tell us how generally available that RehFit Centre is to the public in general, like who can go there and make use of that new facility that the government has helped to finance . MR. BANMAN: There is a fee that's attached for the utilization of the facility. There is a reduced fee for the people that are referred there by physicians , like the cardiac patients who are training and practising, or running there . There is a

section in that particular facility which is a sports medicine centre , which is run by a doctor , who has some physiotherapists there. They provide service to anyone who has a problem - athletic injury or anything else - and anybody from Manitoba, I guess , can go and get help in that particular centre if he or she has got an injury from football, baseball , gymnastics or anything . MR. McBRYDE: Would the YMCA . . . This discussion took place this afternoon when the questions occurred to me.

Would the YMCA be the only place then, that a person could get some testing as to their general physical condition and then get retesting later on, after they entered into maybe a self-set program or whatever? MR. BANMAN: The YMCA is one. The University of Manitoba, as I mentioned, started this, it's called Target Fitness . They just launched that about a month ago .

And you can go out there and they will do a complete physical check on you, and then they will prescribe a program for you to follow , consisting of maybe running , jogging, lifting , skipping, then also make certain comments about diet , about smoking habits, and then when you come back in a few months, and if you follow their program fairly well, they'd like to test you again and show you the chart and show you the 3199

Thursday, April 26, 1979 dramatic difference and the change . MR. McBRYDE : Can the Minister tell us how much this kind of a program costs a citizen? MR. BANMAN: I understand they run from about $10 to $15 .00. The YMCA put on a special week of testing. They had it in different Ys throughout Winnipeg and , as I ment ioned before, we are looking at probably having some outreach programs out of the RehFit Centre , which could possibly do some work in rural Manitoba . MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, I have a more general question and I suppose this is as general a

section as any , and it related to the Minister 's comments this afternoon in relation to ringette and the popularity of that sport and the expansion of that

part icular spo rt. And I wonde r if the Minister has an opinion , a policy , any direction in terms of granting of various sports agencies , in terms of hockey or other sports, where a girl might want to play in a leag ue whe re league officials want to restrict the participation to boys .

I wonder if the Minister would care to comment on that situation , because we have seen in other areas a numbe r of fairly sad cases when a female was able to make a team and contr ibute as a player to that team, and there was no concern at the local level , but at a higher level up in the organization people have said, we're not going to have any females playing in this league , in this type of sport. MR. BANMAN: I haven 't had any particular problems drawn to my attent ion.

The sports governing bodies, such as the Manitoba Amateur Hockey Assoc iation and the other sports govern ing bodies draw up their own rules and are autonomous to that extent . The province does give them an annual grant, which they then use for coaching clinics , for travel , for possibly hiring some people for different training sessions . But the province has no direct input into the bylaws or the workings of those particular functions and, as I ment ioned , I have not received in the last year and a half that I've been involved in the recreation aspect of it, any complaints or problems in that area . MR.

Mcbryde; Yes, Mr. Chairman , I wonder if the Minister could indicate what the policy would be, what his approach would be, as the Minister responsible for these types of grants , if in fact there was clear incidents of sex discrimination of this type . What would be the policy of himself and his government? MR. BANMAN: Well , Mr. Chairman , I think that since sports governing bod ies run their own personal affairs , if somebody did have a grievance would then have to take that particular grievance to the Human Rights Commission .

But the department, as such , I wouldn 't pass. judgment on it because I don't make the rules with that particular sport or whatever we're talki ng abou t. So they would , I would imagine - and I think Ontario had a difficulty and I think it was the Human Rights Commission that ruled on it - that would be the proper place for somebody to take! a complaint if they had such a complaint. MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Chairman . So the Minister wouldn 't be concerned as the funding agency or as one of the funding agencies , if there were direct discrimination on the basis of sex . MR. BANMAN: No, Mr. Chairman .

There are many instances , and the m1amber will appreciate we just had a problem in Prince Albert where the Selkirk Stealers had a misunderstanding in their particular tournament and that particular event is run by the Canadian Amateur Hockey Association, who sets their rules , and if the Minister in charge of Fitness , Recreation and Sport would have to get involved in and adjudicate in all these particular instances where feel ings run very high , that's, I suggest, all that he would be doing and the sports governing bodies wouldn't have the autonomy , which they should have , in organizing and operating their events.

MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chariman , my question wasn't on a broad variety of situations that the various - -~ sports organizations would be involved in; my question was very specific in the case of discrimination ~ based on the sex of the person involved , and I would like the Minister to make it quite clear whether or not , as the funding agency, he would be concerned of discriminatio n solely on that basis. MR. BANMAN: I could maybe give the undertaking that if such a thing should arise or if there is a complaint that comes forward we would look at it.

Some of the circumstances would have to be looked at, but , basically , it comes down to a fight with regard to the Human Rights legislation tha t we have within the province and the people involved , and I understand that 's where the Ontario thing happened, where 1 think a g irl wanted to play hockey , and that's where they finally adjudicated 3200

. .. Thursday, April 26, 1979 the particular problem . MR. CHAIRMAN: Before we proceed , I would like to indicate to the Membe rs of the Com mittee that the Chair does not keep a list of names and the Chair will use its discretion to call members of the Com mittee as they come up. I would also like to indicate to the members of the comm ittee that it is the i ntention of t he Chair to allow an individual to purs ue his line of questioning until • he is finished. The Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, I wanted to ask the Minister some questions about track and field in Manitoba and particularly as it relates to the 1980 Olympics. For example , a number of years ago, in the 1950s, there was a Canadian Olympic Training Plan in effect, and I'm now thinking to at least 1952 and 1953 and I don 't know how many years it went on, but I was wondering, for example , if Manitoba as a province is interested in promoting Olympic calibre athletes. Now this, of course, extends beyond track and field but I am especially interested in that area which I guess was my best sport and my major interest.

For example, I recall in the last Olympics in 1976 in Montreal, I think there was some problem for outstanding Manitoba athletes in terms of qualifying for the Olympics. There were people like Bruce Pirnie , who is a shot-putter and so on, who was interested in training and I believe was having considerable difficulty in getting time off to train .

So I was just wondering if, in terms of let's say a program to first of all develop athletes , and second ly to take the cream of the crop who may require some assistance to say for example participate in international track meets to gain the experience and at another point in time, may be required to go somewhere in Canada or possibly even in the United States to train . Then the other problem, of course , might be that a person might require six months' training to put the fine edge onto their event and this may require a subsidy of some kind in the case of Pirnie as an example , he was a teacher .

I guess either . . . it would have had to be a case of his division deciding to fund him as an athlete or perhaps there was some Federal manner or some Provi ncial way by which a person could get a grant so that they could take the time off to tra in for that particular event. So we are now one year away . The 1980 Olympics will be in Moscow in August , I believe, and I was just wondering if the prov incial government had some program to encourage amateurs and also to support or subsidize the finest athletes that we have to participate in the Olympics. MR. BANMAN: Mr.

Chairman , the training and the travel assistance and the development of the lead athletes has, over the last years, been the responsibility of Game Plan , which is a national organization. In other words, the federal government, as I said, when it comes to training elite athletes , that's where we click in and that's our delineation of authority . The prov incial government has set aside something like $100,000 from Lotteries for ManPian which is a program which helps in travel assistance for different athletes .

The member touches on an important point and that is that we have many athletes who are of a very good calibre, whether it be boxing, judo and many of these other individual sports , and because those people attain a certain level of proficiency in their particular sport, they have to travel great distances, either Vancouver or the midwestern States or out to Toronto or Montreal to find some competition because if they don 't do that, they are competing against two or three people in the province and that does not allow them to widen their scope . So that's why ManPian was introduced. It is working fairly well.

We have helped a fair number of athletes . I think we helped something like 226 athletes this year in different endeavours that they undertook , so that is under way . The development of the track and field in the province , with the advent of the track that the member mentioned , I know that in Steinbach, for instance, I think we had something like 900 participants in that particular track and field event , which was encouraging .

One of the problems we have in track and field and the problems that were faced at the Tribune Games , is a lack of spectator support in that particular field and that caused some problems because I know that in the event that the Tribune ran, I think most of us were disappointed , and I was there too , at the amount or the lack of numbers in the stands despite the fact that they brought in some fantastic runners of international calibre and along with that, had many of the high school track people participating in different things there too .

So I guess it is one part of public awareness , to make the public aware that it is an exciting and interesting sport and continue to support things such as the Canadian Legion track and field training out at the Peace Gardens in the summer months and stuff like that. So there are some funds available . Granted , maybe there could be some more dealing with sending athletes to other competitions , but the province has taken the approach that the elite athlete receives funding from the federal government , like Sylvia Burka and people of that international 3201

Thursday, April 26, 1979 calibre, receive funding from the federal government. The provincial government, we are helping along to the tune of about $100,000 in travel assistance . MR. DOERN: Does that $100,000 include all sports, like I'm thinking now of Olympic sports and that may include hockey and soccer and all sorts of other sports? Do you have any idea of how much of that $100,000 is for traditional Olympic sports? MR.

BANMAN: I understand that some of the sports like hockey and curling which are very competitive and professional-type sports don 't receive that type of funding but it is particular individual-type sports that the member was talking about. MR. DOERN: If someone was thought to be of Olympic calibre let's say by the local sports organizations and did not qualify under this elite program sponsored by the federal government, is it possible that they could obtain funding from the province? MR. BANMAN: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, the person has to be recomm ende d by the Provincial Sports Governing Body so that there is a check in that system so that that person is definitely of a calibre that should be going to these things . MR. DOERN: I just wanted to comment on the Minister 's remarks about the Tribune Meet because I think it was a very good meet. It got off rather slow but I think it was quite exc iti ng and I just wanted to say that although I, too , was disappointed in the number of people who attended, maybe some 5,000 or so, I think that it is obvious that you have to build an audience and you have to build support.

You can 't have an event every three or four years and hope to have a full house . It's only in regular track meets and events and so on that you will build public support , and I think that everybody who was there who hadn 't seen a meet in a couple of years will definitely go to the next one . The other thing I wanted to ask the Minister was about coaching instruction and so on. I would cite this following example : I have seen three Olympics, starting in 1960, and if I could just digress for a moment , Mr. Chairman.

In 1960, I believe it was the first year the Russians played a major role - maybe it was their first Olympics , or it was their second Olympics , I'm not sure - but they were quite dominant along with the United States. In 1972 a new phenomenon came on the scene called East Germany, and by 1976 in Montreal East Germany, with the population of the same size as Canada - in fact , slightly smaller - practically won the Olympic Games. They gave the Russians and the Americans a run for their money and -(Interjection)- Well , how much did they spend , the honourable member says - I don 't know.

I don't have those figures . All I know is that in the United States there are ten times the number of people, and in the Soviet Union there are ten times the number of people , and I know that we talk about professional-amateur athletes in the Soviet Union - that may be true - but in the United States you have about the same thing too. I mean , you have guys on hockey scholarships , football scholarships, track scholarships . If you 're really famous -(Interjection)- Perhaps .

But the point is that you can make a lot of money as an amateur athlete , and I always recall a famous football player , one of the best professional American players who was also one of the best college player s, who also had the ugliest face when he was contorting his face , named Hugh McEihenny , who played for Washington . He was introduced once as the only college player who ever took a cut in salary to play pro-football, as he had his cadillac, his salary , his this and his that. as All I'm saying is this , Mr.

Chairman, that one who has watched track and field closely since the early fifties to the present, we saw the Russian phenomenon on the scene - we're still seeing that in hockey, painfully so - and we'vf? seen curling go by the boards in a way, as things are getting tougher there, but I'm saying in track and field we've seen the rise of East Germany as a major power , and my understanding of their system which reminds me very much of ancient Sparta , is that the key to their success is the coaching .

I've listened to programs, I've heard discussions , I've read a few articles ; this is my understanding of the East German success, that they focus on the coach . They train the coaches ; they spend their money and their resources in educating people in that area , and then the coaches go out and teach people the fundamentals and so on and so on. In Canada, I think there 's a great deal of amateurism in coaching. People are found in the woodwork, who will come out and teach or coach hockey , or something. Some of them , I suspect, don 't know anything about the fundam entals.

They are all well-intentioned; they are all willing to give of their time, which is saying quite a bit, but in terms of knowing proper, scientific coaching physiology basics , the whole thing, I suspect a lot of them don 't know anything. They're just volunteer citizens willing to put in the time, and they should be commended for that. 3202 •

Thursday, April 26, 1979 But I'm just saying to the Minis ter, given that coaching and the development of prog rams to teach coaches , which is probably the short cut rather tha n trying to teach the athletes and the young people you know, which would require a great deal o f effor t, I suppose it's cheaper a nd more efficient to teach coache s, a nd then the coaches will then teach the brod der mass of people . I was just wondering if the Minister had any prog ram s or new programs , or tho ughts about developing coaching in all areas of athlet ics in Man itoba? MR.

BANMAN: Well , as I mention ed before we adjourned thi s afternoon , one of the areas which - if we want to get competitive in many fields - is an area which we're going to have to beef up , and that's our coach ing instruct ion. There 's no question about it.

I think one of the classic examples at the Brandon Winter Games was the fact that fencing, because they had an aggressive fellow who they had hired with assistanc e from the province and some of the funds that they received , went from ninth four years ago in fencing in Canada, to fourth , and they even won some bronze medals, and part of that was due to good coaching on that behalf . So that is of particular We have developed, as I mentioned before, the Coaches Development Program, which is training people who are involved in coaching.

I think at the National level people are realizing that coaching is becoming a very important part of trying to train good athletes, and I know that companies such as Esso and that have sprung some money for the hiring of I believe swimming coaches for the National team . But we are embarking on a program which will see coach development and coach training in the province , and hope to upgrade and give people a little more expertise in that particular field .

One of the problems, of course , we have is the vastness of our country with a million people in it, and I'm talking about Manitoba now , and when you are talking about rural Manitoba - if you think you 've got problems in Winnipeg - it heightens as you hit the different areas , because if you're looking at a small community of 3,000 or 4,000 people and there 's a number of sports that people want to get involved in, you just haven't got the people who have the technical capabilities of doing that.

So, we are looking at that program and realize that that is one area where we have to concentrate on, if we're going to bring up the calibre of our athletes. MR. DOERN: I'd also ask the Minister if he could just answer a brief question here . I guess one of the finest gymnasts in Manitoba history is Monica Gorman . Can the Minister explain why she is so successful? Is it her father , or is she in some larger program? Why has she been such a standout? MR.

BANMAN: I guess it's the combination of father and mother here, but the mother is a very excellent coach, and the young lady has tremendous natural ability with regards to that particular sport. I might add that we have a number of people , we have Bonnie Wittmeier who did tremendously well in the Brandon Winter Games , who is coming up through the ranks, and is being coached by Mrs . Gorman, so there are some people around who are not only good coaches, but we do have people around too with natural talent. MR. CHAIRMAN: (b)(1)-pass - the Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Chairman, I just want to make sure - where would be the appropriate place to ask questions on the Gimli Centre , on the Northern Swim Program and on the Frontier Games? MR. BANMAN: 2.(a). MR. CHAIRMAN: (b)(1)-pass; (b)(2)-pass - the Member for Brandon East. MR. EVANS: Under what appropriation can we just get a very brief idea of the staffing of the department? I don't want all kinds of details but , you know , what is the size of the staff in the department, this year, last year , and particularly, how many are out in the field in the regional centres of the province? MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please.

To the Member for Brandon East that area was just covered. Could possibly his associates relay the information to him? (b)(1)-pass; (b)(2)-pass; (b)-pass; (c)(1)- pass - the Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Well, Mr. Chairman, I just wonder if we can have a fuller

summary from the minister 3203

Thursday, April 26, 1979 of this

section and what it does and I don't believe that figures for this sections from the staff were given just for the first part. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. BANMAN: That's correct. This particular

section deals with the Sports Admin . Centre on Ellice Avenue. There are 11 permanent staff man years there , which includes a manager , an accountant , and 9 support staff which include the steno pool , the printing shop , and also provides for 2 term staff for stenographic services for peak periods . MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman , I wonder if the Minister could indicate the level of staffing at this centre last year , and I believe it was in existence the year before. MR. BANMAN: I understand one less. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman , was that one less actual person working there or one less position? MR.

BANMAN: A contract position for secretarial assistance . MR. CHAIRMAN: (c)(1)- pass ; (c)(2)-pass - the Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman , I wonder if the Min ister could outl ine some of those Other Expenditures under this particular item? MR. BANMAN: Office furniture and equipment $12 ,500; postage , telephone $28 ,000 ; printing equipment $12 ,700; automobiles $6,500 ; professional fees for specialized printing , artwork , that type of thing $5,600; and printing , stationary and office supplies $77,000 .00. MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Chairman , I wonder if the Minister could just - I'm not completely sure of the relationship of how the Administration Centre for Recreation and Sport supplements the budgets of, or vice-versa of the various associations, federations , etc .; how do they work together? MR. BANMAN: It strictly provides an administrative service for all the sports governing bodies that are housed in that particular complex .

We pay for the heat, the light , the lease , and for the printing , as I mentioned, and things like that , but it's an administrative func tion where different sports groups can draw on this pool of people for help in sending out circu lars and orga nizing and different things like that. MR. McBRYDE: I just want to make sure I have this clear then . Okay , there 's sort of 2 senior administrative staffs there , and there 's 9 support staff .

I want to make sure I've got the figures correct, and those support staff would mostly be secretaria l support that could do things like run off this booklet and mail out stuff for the organizations. And the

section on Other Expenditures would include mailing costs as well as printing costs for those . How does it work then , for the record , Mr. Chairman, the Minister's been nodding his head to those questions , how does it work then in terms of my sport organization coming there and five or six other sporting organizations being in line, in terms of this kind of assistance? How do they break down the service? Is there some organizations that don 't use it all? Is there some majority use? Is there any sort of data in terms of who makes the most use of that? MR.

BANMAN: There are 59 sports governing bodies , recognized sports governing bodies , in the Province of Manitoba and they all receive certain allocations , as the member will appreciate that some of them are much bigger than others and they are appropriated so and so much time and material by the administrative people out there . The member mentioned 11 permanent staff . One is the manager and one is an accountant , which helps with the accounting of that particular department and the others , as I mentioned , is the steno pool which helps with xeroxing , with putt ing together booklets such as the membe r has.

MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman , I take it , from the Minister 's answe r t hen, that there is a suff icient staff and a sufficient service available , that there isn't a problem in terms of my particula r organization wants to get this notice out , or I need so much prin ting done, etc? 3204 .. .. •.

• Thursday, April 26, 1979 MR. BANMAN: Yes, as long as it's scheduled properly, the member will appreciate that you can 't just walk in off the street and say, now I want this. If the particular sport says it's okay , June the 15th we want to run this and that off, it's a schedul ing thing, and then there shouldn't be any problems with doing it. MR. McBRYDE: Mr .

Chairman, the 59 sports bodies that are now in existence or recognized, and I am not quite clear on this , if a new organization is formed tomorrow , like Hang Gliding Association or the Skateboarders Society, or whatever that doesn't exist now , would they be eligible to receive assistance or is there a recognition process that they must go through? MR. BANMAN: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, the particular sport would make application to the province and they have to be recognized by the National Sports Agency and they have to then make application to us and we would then admit them into the centre if they are recognized nationally. As the Deputy mentions here, we also consult with the Manitoba Sports Federation too, as to the sincerity and viability of that particular sport. MR. McBRYDE: Then , Mr. Chairman , my question to the Minister would be: has he had occasion or has he turned down any applications? Is there any sporting group that didn't meet that criteria? MR.

BANMAN: Not that I'm aware of. We haven 't turned any down , not that I'm aware of. MR. McBRYDE: If it was such a new sport that there wasn 't a national recognition , then I assume that it would be considered. MR. BANMAN: Yes, I am advised we considered Ringette before it became a national sport and of course it's really taken off now and there is no difficulty there , but each sport would be assessed on its own merits. MR. CHAIRMAN: (c)(2)- pass - the Honourable Member for The Pas. MR.

McBRYDE: I am assuming that the administrative centre, since it is located in Winnipeg and would basically serve the head office or the central function of these various sports organizations , I am also making an assumption that some of this kind of assistance though would be provided out in the field by their regional offices on occasion . Would that be correct? MR. BANMAN: Yes, that's right. MR. CHAIRMAN: (c)(2)-pass; (c)-pass. Resolution 56, Item 2.Fitness, Recreation and Sport, 2.(a)(1)-pass - the Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr.

Chairman , I had a number of questions on this particular section, but perhaps first on the Salary section, Mr. Chairman, I would just get from the Minister the staff man years, past and present . MR. BANMAN: Mr. Chairman, we had 17 in this particular group a year ago; we have 15 now. They're all permanent staff; 15 permanent staff, include director, supervisor of sports, fitness co-ordinator, supervisor of recreational services - that's a person who looks after the different recreation districts, 6 technical staff for fitness, recreation and sport activities, and 5 clerical staff . MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Chairman, the reduction of 2; is that a reduction of 2 people or of 2 positions, of 2 contract positions? And what would they have been , Mr. Chairman? MR. BANMAN: They were fitness positions and we felt we could include that with the amalgamation of the department and the reorganization managed to reallocate those two . MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, the fitness positions ; I am not sure what would their duties have been? MR. BANMAN: They were positions in the Department of Fitness and Amateur Sports. 3205

Thursday, April 26, 1979 MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Chairman. I am not quite clear what they did then. The other question would be: were these persons absorbed somewhere else in the department , let go by attrition, or were they fired, or what? MR. BANMAN: Well, one of the people that was involved was a gentleman that's now working for Rehfit, at the Rehfit Centre, would have been involved in physical fitness activities.

It is the feeling that by running the two departments together we could achieve certain scales of economy and have people in the field dealing with the fitness aspects of it as well as the recreation aspects, so what has happened is that these two particular term positions were not filled. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman , I want to ask the question about the Gimli Centre and now that it's not being operated directly by the department as I understand the situation, would those staff reductions have shown up last year's Estimates as opposed to this year 's Estimates? MR. BANMAN: Yes, those were last year's .

I may add that that particular centre is being run very successfully by the Gimli Development Corporation. With a little bit of readjusting and fine tuning, what has happened is where it was costing us in the excess of $70,000 a year to operate, that particular centre, with better utilization , running very much the same programmin g and with some of the help with senior department people, turned a profit last year and is alive and doing well.

They will require those funds tha t they 've made for reinvestment in that particular centre because there is different maintenance and different things that are happening . But it's doing fairly well and we are very happy to see that the people of Gimli have dedicated themselves and some of my staff people have dedicated themselves to see the thing come to such a good state at the present time. MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Chairman , I thank the Honourable Minister for his comments , and it fits in with my basic approach that if things can be run at the local level , that it 's usually more successful, that if it's run at the central or the bureaucratic level , and I would just ask the Minister if he could just pass that bit of basic information along to the Minister of Northern Affairs who doesn 't seem to understand that fact yet. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honou rable Member for Brandon East. MR. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman .

On this item 2.(a), Fitness, Recreation and Sport Development Salaries , could the Minister give us a breakdown of the staff for which we're paying $266,400 .00? How many staff , what kind of people , and why is it lower than last year? MR. CHAIRMAN: To the Member for Brandon East , the Minister just covered that. MR. EVANS: On a point of order , Mr . Chairman , I don 't know , you may have done that , but we're on that item and I'm entitled to ask that question .

I don 't want to take at long time, if you could just tell me very, like in 20 seconds , why is there a smaller amount them and , you know, what type of people are you paying under this item of $266 ,400.00? MR. BANMAN: Mr. Chairman, we just went through that. There were 17 people, there are 15 now . Two of the positions which we talked about, the Member for The Pas and I, two of the positions were contract positions which have not been filled , and that's the reason for the reduction . MR. EVANS: Therefore all of these positions are not Civil Service positions . Some of them are contract positions . MR.

BANMAN: They're all permanent staff positions. MR. EVANS : Is it the policy not to hire anyone on contract under this item? MR. BANMAN: Well , not really. We haven 't made any provisions for that . MR. EVANS: What will be the main thrust of the department under this item in the coming year? MR. BANMAN: The people involved in this particular department are director and supervisors of 3206 .. v

• • • Thursday, April 26, 1979 sport, fitness co-ordinators and also a person who is looking after the regional staff as far as the recreation facilities are concerned . MR. EVANS: Thank you , Mr. Chairma n. Well , that more or less describes some of their functions , but is there any major policy thrust or any major objective? Has the Minister not got some objectives for the province of Mani toba, in terms of these items? In terms of fitness? Is there any goal , any plan of developing these fields , develo ping recreation? Is there any objectiv es of sport development?

You must have some idea as to where we're going as a depar tment concerned with Fitness , Recreation and Sport development. MR. BANMAN: Mr. Chairman, we're concerned about regional developments, which we're going to get into pretty heavily . We are concerned abo ut fitness levels and we discussed that here before and there were some suggestions made by members opposite of different fitness testing to see how we stack up with the rest of Canada and maybe some other jurisdictions . We will be providing _assistance to communities and to sports governi ng bodies and other organizations who require our assistance .

We have one new initiative in this

part icular department and that is we have just bulletined and will be hiring a person who will deal with recreat ion for the handicapped. That 's a new thrust of this particular

section this year , a person who will liaise with the different groups who are actively involvd in the handicapped field . I might add there is more and mor e coming up in that way. I just attended an opening of the Ninth Annual Invitation of the Manitoba wheelchair athletes at basketball , and it's amazing how well some of these people can perfo rm if given the opportunity . We hope that our new director who will be in charge of the recreation for the handicapped

section will be able to plug into the department and tap on the different resources in the department to provide the maximum type of exposure and help to the people involved with physically hand icapped and mentally handicapped people . MR. EVANS : Thank you , Mr. Chairman . I'm glad to hear that. I think we can 't do enough to make life a litt le more tolerable for those who are handicapped . At the winter games - I use that as an example - Quebec came off very well. I've also heard that Quebec does spend a lot of money in var ious prog rams to assist amateur sport, to assist in sport development.

Also I gather , and I don 't have any detailed information , t hat Ontario pays a lot of attention . Now it 's obvious that these two provinces are the largest provinces in Canada in terms of population, and it 's only natural that when you go to any inte r-provinc ial sport meet that they 're going to walk away with a lot of medals and a lot of troph ies and so on , because they've simply got more people to draw on. But what do we have to do in Manitoba? I mean, I've heard that Manitoba and many other provinces don 't come anywhere near the standards that Ontario and Quebec try to achieve .

I'm not just talking about money, but I'm talk ing about new initiatives . How can we get closer to the position that Quebec is in, because Quebec does pay a lot of attention , has a lot of pride in developing their amateur sport. What can we do in Manitoba to raise the standards and come a little closer to, apparantly, the standards that they have in central Canada? MR. BANMAN: Well , we have a few problems which are not unique only to Manitoba . Saskatchewan has the same problems . The member touches on really one of the basic problems , and that's the number of people .

In the province of Manitoba, we have half of our population which is in the city of Winnipeg . Up until the Brandon Winter Games , there was no way that Brandon could have a synchronized swimming club . You didn 't have the facilities. You had a big city in western Manitoba that didn 't have handball courts, so you can't develop handba ll players if you haven 't got handball courts . So number one , it's a problem of recreation facilities , and the facil ities , as the member knows , are very costly and the operation of them are usually more prohibitive than the capital.

It's the running of them that costs a lot of money . So number one is the capital or the recreation facilities is number one . We've got a problem there , because you know , in the Town of Steinbach we haven 't got an indoor pool so we can 't ge t into synchronized swimming , speed swimming, because it's not year round . The other thing is that because of the lack of people , and we touched on that before here , if we do have one or two people that really excell , or one or two teams, it becomes very difficult as far as travel and that is concerned .

In Onta rio you've got the inte r-varsity games, you 've got colleges close together. The Niagara Peninsula competes with Laval and all those , and that , because of the travelling distance isn't that big a problem . So we have a number of things which are against us to start with, but as I mentioned , one of the areas that we are concentrating on and concerned about is coach development, because we think that 's where we're going to have to beef up the system if we want to get better athletes out of the system . 3207

Thursday, April 26, 1979 MR. EVANS: The Minister referred to the need for facilities and if you don't have the facilities, I think he said in so many words , you can't develop certain sports, and he used the city of Brandon as an example . Would the Minister say that - and perhaps he's done a survey of this, 1 don 't know . But would he say that there is a very dire need for specific types of facilities around the province? I'm thinking not Winnipeg so much as the other centres, the cities and the towns around the province, Steinbach, I think you mentioned swimming facilities and so on. Have you done any survey?

Do you have any assessment of the needs for these recreational facilities around the province of Manitoba? MR. BANMAN: Not a survey as such , Mr. Chairman , but the member has to realize that , you know , it would be nice for every small community to have a building like the Sportsplex in Brandon , but it becomes just financially impossible. There's no way that you can have a small community build that kind of facility . So you have to use a little bit of common sense wl1en you're talking about that. The operation of an indoor swimming pool is very expensive .

The operation of some of the other facilities that we're talking about , handball courts , you can build handball courts , but you've got to have the utilization, and if you don't have the population it beco mes a very costly vent ure and one which the taxpayers , I'm sure , wouldn't want to have. So it is a problem . The need might be there for a few athletes within that particular setting, but because of the financial rest rictions and the tremendous cost , you just can 't do it. MR. EVANS: Yes, well I appreciate the Minister 's comments . You have to assess the financial ability of the community .

You have to assess the financial impact on the provinc ial treasury, and surely you don 't want to construct something that is only going to satisfy the needs of a very few people , or you certainly don 't want to construct a facility that is far out of proportion to the community that it srrves. The Sportsplex in Brandon is fine for a city of that size. I don 't suggest for a moment that you could start duplicating that type of construction in places around the province that have maybe 500 people or 1,000 people or so on . -(Interjection)- Mr. Chairman, now here we go again .

If you want to talk about Churchill , we can talk about Churchill, becaus l3 it does include a - I don 't know whether the honourable member has ever been to the complex in Churchill. It does have sporting facilities there, so I guess you could talk about Fitness , Recreation and Sport development in Churchill , and I would be in order, because I don't know whether the member realizes it, but it's not only sporting facilities , but it includes a hospital , dental o1'fices and even includes a morgue plus other things in between , like a bowling alley and a swimming pool and skating rink and curling rink and so on.

But I say if you live in Churchill you deserve that , because that 's it. You don 't go anywhere else . And unfortunately , the cost of energy has skyrocketed and made it a very expensive proposition But at any rate, I would like to commend to the Minister under this item, under Fitness , Recreation and Sport development , that a survey be conducted of the need for recreational facilities around the province of Manitoba. I'm not talking about something that 's unreasonable , but let's make an assessment of what the commun ities want.

I can mention to the Minister that in - oh, I think it was around 1971-72, the Department of Industry and Commerce did a gigantic survey involving 83 communities in the province of Manitoba . We started off with 75, but 8 other communities wanted to get in on the survey , and what we were trying to establish was , you know , the economic and social needs of the communities and what they could do for themselves and what the province could do, interrelating with them for their future development . And there are reports on this .

In fact , a lot of that material is still being used by government departments , I believe, for various purposes , including the possibility of establishment of regional parks and so on. But the interesting thing out of that survey was that the number one need that the communities indicated was recreational facilities . I had thought it was new industry . You know , more jobs in the manufacturing sector or what have you . And it wasn't that , or in any other business sector. It wasn 't more business ; it was more recreational facilities .

That was the number one response that the various communities got throughout all of Manitoba . I say if you want to meet the needs of rural communities , certainly one primary - one priority area is this area of provid ing recreational facilities. Now a lot of facilities were provided to these communities , or were made possible in these communities through various job creation programs , the Provincial Employment Program of a few years ago provided communities with moneys to build arenas , to improve their skating rinks , etc .

And what I'm suggesting to the Minister is that it might be an opportune time to conduct a survey , have a better idea of our needs for recreation facilities around the provi nce, and possibly work out a program where you can help in a very realistic way , help the communities do their own thing . 1 think back to , I think it was 1970, when we had all the Centennial projects all over Manitoba , 3208 • ..

Thursday, April 26, 1979 all kinds of arenas were built. The Membe r f or Minnedosa is gone. I believe there was a building in Minnedosa ; there may have been one in Virden. Ther e were all kind s of recreat ional faci lities built because it was our centennial year . There was a little bit of grant money available, but it was seed mone y, because the n the community got busy and raised most of the money the mselves and it did stimulate a great deal of commu nity effort , and it did raise the level of recreationa l facilities in those communities.

I'm saying maybe it's high time that the Min ister conduct a survey, get an assessment of the needs and thin k of s ome kin d of a program which doesn 't necessar ily have to involve millions upon millions of dollar s, which could be relatively modest and yet spark and stimulate and assist and aid these communities in providing better recreational facilities . Because I agree with the Ministe r. That is obviously a major constraint in developing athletes or allowing people to develop their abilities in some of these sports , because if you don't have the facilities , you are indeed handicapped in that way . MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, just a few genera l comments here . The Minister did make some references to arenas, and I would just like to mention that I think one of the problems with indoor arenas , which are I suppose needed and more are needed throughout the prov ince and through the city of Winnipeg , is that there seems to be very little time available for pleasure skating , so that you take the average arena , it's used for hockey .

And I know in the East Kildonan and North Kildonan area , there are two good indoor arenas , and unfortunately there 's none in Elmwood, but there are two - one in E .K. and one in North Kildonan - and in both cases you have about a two hour block twice a week so that ' in one case you can skate , say, on Saturday and Thursday, and in the other arena you can skate Sunday afternoon for two hours and Tuesday evening for two hours .

So I'm saying I believe that's a bit of an imbalance in the use of these facilities, but just in a general way, does the Min ister have the money availab le to fund things like new arenas in the provi nce, or new swimming pools - indoor in particular - does he have that kind of capacity? MR. BANMAN: Well , Mr. Chairman , that becomes the responsibility of municipal governments , who assess their needs and prior ities and try to repre sent the concerns and, I guess , the wishes of their particular constituents .

We have had , in the province , a program wit h lotteries funds dealing with Capital Recreational Facilities Grants , which has now , I think , been running for about six years , and has given out more than $5 million , I believe , to these different facilities . But the priorization of those concerns is done by the municipal authority, and I think the members would agree that's where it should be left. One of the problems we have is that , and you know it's not that many years ago that I would spend every night on the skating rink , but we never had an indoor rink at all.

We would go out and sit in our little shack and put on our skates and if there was six inches of snow on the ice, we would shovel that, and then we would get out and skate, and I remember going out every night and skating . And I notice a lot of Municipal Corporations are doing that type of thing now - clearing or flooding small rinks , and doing that type of thing for outdoor skating - but we all got soft over the last little while, and we don 't want to brave the elements like we used to.

But if you are looking at indoor facilities it becomes very expensive, but there are certain outdoor facilities that can be developed and utilized for that particular purpose. But with the development of certain sports, such as figure skating and that, I know time is of the essence . Some kids get up at 6:00 o'clock in the morning to get arena ice time , but I think we have to realize that we are faced with certain dollar constraints, and that that judgment is lift up to the municipal governments . MR.

DOERN: The Minister is saying then that there is money available for arenas and swimming pools through the lotteries? MR. BANMAN: We just completed Series 6, which accepted applications, it closed on April 15th, and we are now in the process of reviewing those applications . Those applications have to come in and they are sponsored by municipal authorities, and they have to come in under the signature of the municipalities, so that all facilities that are built will be run through the municipal system to make sure that it meets the priorities of that particular rural Council or urban Co·mcil. MR.

DOERN: I would say, in response to the Minister and his early days as a skater like mine, that my snow shovelling days are over , but my outdoor skating days are not, and I still skate out 3209

Thursday, April 26, 1979 of doors quite a bit. But I would just mention to him that one of the problems there again , in terms of a local rink where they'll have a couple of hockey rinks and so on, is that often , because no one will shovel any more, it seems, or because they don't have the necessary staff , that you'll often have one or two of their rinks inoperable . The rinks will be there , but they 're covered with snow , so you know you have that type of a problem again about insufficient staff or volunteer effort. ~ One other area I wanted to ask the Minister about was tennis .

We made some big advances in the sport of tennis, which is, you know, one of the fastest growing sports, it's an old sport and it's one that I've played all my life, but in about the past ten years it has become a big fad like jogging in the last five years or so. I was just wondering if the Minister could indicate whether it's his responsibility to provide tennis courts in provincial parks or , if not , whose responsibility is that? MR. BANMAN: I agree with the member that the racquet sports and really racquet ball has really caught on in North America .

It's an indoor sport which people can go and play and you can get a good volley going even though you are an amateur, which is a little more difficult than in tennis . But the racquet sports generally - tennis, squash and racquet ball - have really caught on, and there is a lot of utilization of those new facilities on Taylor Avenue , as well as many of the YMCA facilities . It comes under Provincial Parks, run by -(Interjection)- yes, yes. MR. DOERN: I would then also ask the Minister this question .

There are no indoor public tennis courts in the city of Winnipeg, as an example, there are several private clubs and there's quite a few squash courts springing up , and racquet ball, and so on, pad dle ball courts springing up; assuming that the Minister were persuaded of the merit of an indoor racquet ball court-tennis courts , which I would put ahead of that , but nevertheless , does the Minister have the means to provide the funding for that, or is that again a case of, he wouldn 't show the initiative but if the municipality went after him, say in this case the city of Winnipeg , that he might respond with funding?

MR. BANMAN: At present there is no program in place for that, except tha t Capital Facilities Grant which has been used, I might add , by many municipalities to develop tenn is courts - I mean the outdoor - but the indoor tennis thing would have to be initiated by the city, and I think that one of the problems that you have is because the . . . one of the reasons the racquet ball has really caught on is the amount of space that it occupies. You can get a lot of racquet ball courts into one tennis court.

That 's one of the problems that we've had with the cost of high energy and cost of space, it becomes a pretty prohibitive type of thing to get into. MR. DOERN: If the city of Winnipeg requested lottery support for a public indoor tennis facility , the Minister has money for that purpose? MR. BANMAN: If it would apply under one of the programs that we have in place such as the Capital Facilities, yes. MR.

DOERN: The Minister made some comment earlier about the Sports Injury Clinic , and I assume that from what he said that it is alive and well, and I was also wonder ing where it is located now, because I remember going there a couple of times when it was in the Pan-Am Pool ; where is it now? MR. BANMAN: The Sports Injury Centre is still located at the Pan-Am Pool, and is alive and doing well. I think they are seeing up to 40 clients a day , which makes life pretty busy out there , and it is a well accepted service which is provided to the athletes of Manitoba . MR. DOERN: Along these lines, Mr.

Chairman, the RehFit Centre - Has the department been involved in providing that grant and in having any say in its operation? MR. BANMAN: 1 think it's about two years ago , or two and one-half years ago that they were promised a $250,000 Capital Facilities Grant on a special deal from lotte ries, and that has been our involvement to date. MR. DOERN: You know, it sort of brings a tear to my eye to think of the RehFit Centre , which our government decided was best located in Elmwood , and your government decided it was best located on Taylor Avenue , and we had a great deal of talk about commun ity access.

There was a great deal of discussion that it would be made available to schools in the area , that schools would be able to use the facility for X number of hours a week , that community organizations would be 3210 ..

Thursday, April 26, 1979 able to use the track and that there would be fre e time for individu als. I don' t know what the case is now, but from what I read in the paper, it sounds like unless y ou have $200, $300 or $400 to come up with for a members hip, you can't get in there .

So I am just wondering if the Minist er could clarify whether , having given a qu arter of a millio n dollars or more, because the figure I recall was abou t $300 ,000 , but having put in a substa ntial amount of money into tha t fac ility w hich is now open and funct ioning , performs an interest ing and useful service, is it availab le to the public per se or is it only available to tho se who can afford the membership fees? MR. BANMAN: Well, as the member will appreciate, the decision to locate it, I guess, was made by the city and by Kinsmen .

We had no input into the location of the particular facility - the city donated the land for that particular site , and I guess had some bearing on where that went because of the high cost of land throughout the city . There are some programs which are starting to develop. I understand there's a Senior Citizen Program in the afternoon for them .

The member will have to appreciate that they just opened their doors a couple of weeks ago, and I think are still in the planning stage , I know they have all kinds of ideas and we will be working with them to try and see what kind of time frames we're looking at for availability of space . There was some indication that the National Volleyball Team would be located in there, because they have some excellent volleyball courts, but unfortunately they have moved to Calgary for a number of reasons.

The facilities are terrific , and I think it's a matter of them trying to go through their growing pains or their opening pains right now, and see where exactly they're headed . MR.

DOERN: I'm going to make one hard specific suggestion to the Minister, and I would ask him to possibly report on this later in the session, or at some point in the next few months, even after the session , and that is this , the province has put up a third or whatever the percentage is of that facility or at least made a very substantial donation , because I recall figures like the Kinsmen were putting up $350,000, we were putting up $250 ,000, $300 ,000 , and they were raising some money , and so on and so on . I know St.

Boniface Hospital is involved , and all the rest of it, but I simply say that , when our administration was involved, it was very clear to me that they were very responsive to the building being made available to schools and individuals and community organizations, because there 's no way that that facility can be operated from early in the morning until late at night with X cardiac patients , or even healthy people who are trying to keep in shape. There will be periods of time when it could be made available to the public.

I'm simply saying to the Minister that since we've put in that kind of money into that facility, funded it to the extent of one-third or one-quarter , that I think we should insure - and the Minister, as the representative of the public and the public purse - should insure that there are hours each day - X number of hours each day - seven days a week, in which individuals can use that in a free-time period, and that schools or track clubs or whatever can access that facility without payment. So I would simply very strongly urge him to follow through on that point.

The other thing I would like to ask about , and this may be unknown to the Minister or some of his officials, but Gerry Wilson is a prominent specialist in sports injuries, having been an outstanding athelete, and one who suffered some serious injuries, and I understand that he is now taking a year off, is studying somewhere in the States in sports medicine , in some aspect of it, and then he's going to return .

And I don't know whether he's setting up his own clinic, or he's getting funding for the establishment of some special organization or what, but I just wondered if the Minister had any information for the committee on this, because it sounded like a good development . MR. BANMAN: I understand that he is working closely with the people out at the RehFit Centre, and also with the sports medicine people; and as I mentioned before, there is a doctor out at the RehFit Centre right now, Dr. Hildahl, who is setting up this concept , and is involved in that field .

What the particular gentleman in question has in mind when he comes back, I can't really say, but I understand that he is acquainted with those facilities, and is involved in the sports medicine business. MR. DOERN: Could the Minister comment on the fate of the Daly Report on Fitness and Amateur Sports? MR. BANMAN: Well , there were a number of specific recommendations, the first one being the amalgamat ion of the two departments, which has already happened . The other recommendations, we will be dealing with the Manitoba Sports Federation and other sports bodies in trying to implement some of them .

One of the concerns, when the Daly Commission was travelling in rural Manitoba, 3211

Thursday, April 26, 1979 was the lack of input by rural Manitoba into that particular field. Rural Manitoba felt that there should be more involvement on their behalf, and we will be looking into that. Different funding levels and that will be dealt with when we have had a chance to implement some of the recommendations of the Haig Report. MR. DOERN: Is Mr. Daly doing any work for the government now, as a consultant, or on a follow -through basis? MR. BANMAN: I don 't believe so.

I know he is actively fund-ra ising for the University of Manitoba , to get some of the projects going that they want to get going, and he's also very involved in that marathon which is coming up on June 17th . MR. DOERN: The last point I want to raise here is about the support of professional hockey, the Jets, and the Winnipeg Arena. We've been talking about amateur sport , and that is my main interest here , but can the Minister give us an update on what is happening vis-a-vis the new expanded arena?

There seems to be a lot of fancy footwork on the part of the provi ncial government ; I don't know if we're caught up in the federal election , whether there's power plays between lona Campagnolo and the Lyon government.

I don't know whether it's a case of who should move first , or what , but I assume that arena expansion is almost a fact, that the city has put into effect a $3.5 million expansion ; they have let tenders ; the building is, if not under construction , abou t to be constructed ; they're on their way, they 're going through a series of sequential tenders , des ign - build, design - build, design - build. And then , at a later point in tim e, if they get more money -(Interjection)- well, no, it's not like The Pas jail, that's simply defer , defer, defer .

In the case of the Winnipeg Arena , the $3.5 million is committed now ; the city is ~1uaranteeing that to the Winnipeg Enterprises . Then there comes a question of: If there 's a three-way split , will that $3.5 million count as a city share? In my judgment it does, without question. But , if there is sharing , three-way sharing , then they will obviously put more money in. I don 't believe they're going to pump $15 million into the existing building.

I believe they will add maybe a couple of million more for special machines and standby power plants , and elevators, and nicer touches , or somethin~l· It sounds like they will go maybe to $6 million. At least from what I understand from talking to various councillors , that if it's an expansion and they get federal and provincial support , maybe they'll go to $6 million or slightly more . They're not going to go to $15 million. But I wonder if, in general , the Minister could bring us up to date on the prov ince's role in this project. It is a unique project ; it is for professional sport; it is for the!

Jet Hockey Team ; and it is for hockey fans . Obviously, I guess , other people use the arena, and there 's other purposes for the arena , but primarily we're talking about for the advantage and benefit and promotion of professional hockey . And now we are also , finally, a long-awaited dream , in the NHL. And so we're now going to watch a whole series of endless annual games , and then endless play-offs. You play for dozens and dozens and dozens of games , and one team gets eliminated; it doesn't seem like much of an elimination .

But , at any rate , I believe that the province should commit now in the sense of, should put the federal government on the hook. It strikes me that we're playing an " after you " kind of game, where we're waiting for the feds to commit , and they're waiting for us to commit. But I believe that if they commit , that that commitment will carry , regardless of whether the Liberals win the election, or the Conservatives win the election . We may win, too . We're very opt imistic too , Mr. Chairman . My colleague's views are more sanguine than mine. I'm only predicting a significant increase in seats.

So, I'm simply saying , Mr. Chairman , if we go with the $3.5 million , I believe that the province should commit a third of that. If we go to $6 million , the same thing . I don't believe we're talking about three $5 million sums. So, could the Minister bring us up to date on the provincial position vis-a-vis the expansion and vis-a-vis the federal government's announcement , the lona Campagnolo business , that the Minister, I guess , has some painful recollections about.

I recall him exchanging insults or points of view with the late Member for Fort Rouge , but could you bring us up to date with your involvement with Mrs. Campagnolo . MR. BANMAN: Well , Mr. Chairman , the matter is not nearly as comple x, I guess , as it seems . There was an announcement by the federal government that they would provide cost-sharing up to $5 million if the municipal and provincial levels of government would match that. That was announced several months ago in a press conference by the Federa l Minister. Up until last week, we didn 't have that in writing ; we just had a press statement.

The city is trying to get some further information , to see if their $3.5 million guarantee is going 3212

Thursday, April 26, 1979 to be accepted by the Government of Canada as part of the commitment to that parti cular p roject. The Deputy Mayor has mentioned , and the member is quite right , that that amo unt of money , $15 million, won 't be required , because they 'd have to build a new colosseum and they are committed to the expan sion .

So where the matter sits to date is that we are waiting for the city, who are waiting for a clarification , I understand now from reading tonight's paper, are waiting for a clarification from • Ottawa with regards to their grant ; they feel that it was not spelled out well enough . So, as soon as the city as their commitment , I guess, and get their particular problems straightened out, they will then approach us and show us exactly what type of plan they propose , so we can sit down and talk to them.

As far as the provincial involvement at this point , we are going to have a look at what the city proposes, or what the Winnipeg Enterprises propose, and then we'll have to make a Cabinet decision on that . MR. DOERN: Just a few more points . Incidentally, I understand from the Chairman that the Minister is not feeling well , and I would say to him that we may proceed for a short while yet on this item , and then it might be in the best interests to then adjourn until tomorrow, and do lotteries tomorrow, that might be more amenable . MR. BANMAN: It might be worse tomorrow, let's keep going . MR.

DOERN: It might be worse tomorrow. Okay , well, I'm saying, that's my suggestion, but if you want to proceed , that's fine. But you can exercise that option if you so wish . My understanding is this , that - and I just want to focus on this point - my understanding is that the federal government , they've said this many times and , of course , we realize that politics is entering into it, in view of the federal election, but Reid has apparently - the Honourable John Reid - has apparently indicated that they are, in fact, waiting for the provincial commitment, because they have made a commitment.

And Lloyd Axworthy, the former Member for Fort Rouge, at a press conference which looks suspiciously political , since there were two Liberal candidates there , running in the federal election , and John Reid - it just sort of smacked of campaigning - they held a press conference on this item. But my impression, from reading the paper, and listening in the House, and asking questions , and reading between the lines , is that the federal government has made a commitment . both verbal and in writing . And I heard Bill Norrie , the Deputy Mayor , make some remarks to that effect one day on the radio .

And that 's one point ; I believe they have made a commitment now. Secondly , whether they have made a commitment or not, I believe that if the provincial government made a commitment, that they would then force the hand of the federal government . And I assume that we're really not talking about anything different here , that we are ultimate ly talking of a one-third , one-third, one-third split , there'd be no deviation from that whatsoever , so that whether you commit first , or the feds commit first , it's all the same thing.

And I just ask the Minister again whether he feels that he cannot make a commitment now because it's not clear that there's a fed eral commitment, or whether he wouldn't agree that, whether it 's clear or not , that by making a commitment from Manitoba , he would force the federal hand, and hopefully bind the federal government to some cost-shar ing. MR. BANMAN: I think there 's no question that the federal government has made a commitment . The commitment comes from Loto funds which are yet to be realized .

They haven't got any money in their budgets ; it's supposed to come out of 1980-1981, and it 's on a f ive-year payoff basis . And the funds are supposed to come from Loto Canada , which are funds which they don 't really even have today . So, I think the commitment is there , it's a matter of getting it straightened out and seeing exactly if they will allow that $3.5 million guarantee on behalf of the city to constitute part of that commitment. And I think the province has taken the wise move and said that how can we commit funds until we know exactly what they want to spend , and what we're looking at.

So that's the position we'll take , and we'll do that till the Winnipeg Enterprises comes and says, " Okay , this is what we want to do. We want to add some more escalators, we want to put in different things. " MR. DOERN: So then , do I then understand that one can . . . that any person interested in professional hockey .. . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order. We'll call the committee just for a a five-minute break. The Minister has a problem. Five or ten minutes. You just stick around, though, because we want to get right 3213

Thursday, April 26, 1979 MR. CHAIRMAN: Order. 2.(1Xa). The Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Okay. I think that my colleague from The Pas has something to comment here . 1 think my remarks are concluded, but I still suggest that after this, unh~ss somebody else has something to say that we should probably stop at this point. I think it would be best to then adjourn the committee and we can then go to the last item of Lotteries tomorrow. I mean , unless the Minister is prepared to sit on. I don't advise that, but of course we don 't know how long he's going to last either.

So I'm going to say that when my colleague is finished, I intend to move that committee rise and then I believe we can wrap it up tomorrow morning . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Well, Mr. Chairman, I have a few questions . I don 't want to be the one responsible for driving the Minister to . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. BANMAN: If I can just interject, if the committee doesn 't mind a few interruptions now and then, we can continue . There's no problem, but if you bear with me , I've ~1ot a bit of the stomach flu and I think we can continue. MR. McBRYDE: Okay, Mr. Chairman.

The question of staff man years on this section: the Minister already explained that there was a reduction of two , but then he told my colleague from Brandon that there was a new position for a recreation co-ordinator for the handicapped or to deal with the handicapped. Does that mean that there is actually three positions eliminated and a new one added , or how does that fit in with the staff man year figures he gave? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourab le Minister. MR.

BANMAN: Well, what happened is that we used one of the staff man years that was involved in the Department of Fitness to - I believe in the Department of Fitness - and redeployed that staff man year to cover that particular function, which this new individual would be working with . MR. McBRYDE: There would be a change in function then and the numbers would stay the same . Mr. Chairman, I want to make a couple of comments on the Minister and the Member for Elmwood's early days of recreation of small rinks and cleaning the rink off , etc. And Mr.

Chairman , that particular approach , I think, applies to number of smaller, inexperienced recreation projects that were labour intensive, and Mr.

Chairman , those particular types of possibility for recreation were done away with by the present government that were in the form of winter works or provincial employment program, what could be called a job creation program, and they fall in the category that the Premier of the province always calls a "make work " and " hothouse programs" and he always refers to them with a certain tone in his voice , when he mentions them, but I'm surE! that the Minister must have some concern that some of those programs of that nature of a job cr•eation nature, of labour intensive nature , were quite valuable to the recreation in the province.

I know in my own area some small parks were done and some recreation area for children . I know that in a number of other areas outdoor rinks were built, flooded and maintained under that kind of a program, and so I'm sure the Minister must have some concern and must be annoyed at his leader when he so dogmatically runs down any program of this type that does serve as a beneficial purpose, even though it 's labour intensive and small in nature, that it does provide a very useful purpose to the people in the community. The other question, Mr.

Chairman , arising out of this section, relates from a question of the Member for Brandon again , who asked about the general policy and direction , and certainly when we get into the Estimates of this department, we do seem to get into the competitive or into the sport area , and then more specifically into the competitive sport area, and I think the Minister has indicated that more and more people are getting involved themselves.

And I think that that's a concern that we have to have in terms of more people being able to participate in sports , and not just as spectators but as participants to develop those kind of activities that people can get into, where they don't have to be the top athlete, where the fat boy or the unco-ordinat ted girl or whatever can in fact have a chance to enjoy sports without being embarrassed , humiliated or put in a competitive situation where nobody wants them to play because they don 't have the innate 3214

, Thursday, April 26, 1979 ability to pursue those . I'm wondering if anyone in the depa rtment has sor t of take n an intere st in the field tha t is sort of developing in the area of new games and experimenta l games and non- competitiv e kind of sports activities , which is developing , wheth er there's been any interest by the Minister or h is department in any explo ration of the possibilities of this sor t of new approa ch that's again , l ike many things , coming out of the States . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. BANMAN: Well , the member is quite righ t.

I think the participatory aspect of sport is starting to really develop and , you know , you can get involved in many different areas for not too much money . For instance , a lot of people getting into jogging. What you need is a real good pair of running shoes and away you go. And I not ice the Boston Marathon , some are even going to the Barefoot Marathon , which means you don 't even need a pair of shoes any more . That 's really getting down to the basic. But such events as cross-country skiing , even just hiking . Hiking is becoming a big th ing in the States. Snowshoing .

These are all different sport disciplines that have really become popular in the last while . We mentioned raquet sports here before. A thing like raquetball - of course you need the facilities , but it is a game that anyone can play and get actively involved and have a good workout at it. So there are a number of sports which don 't require all kinds of fancy facilities and all kinds of money . Peop le can get into them and just beat their own times .

If you 're running two miles a day and you do a twelve minute mile and you can bring that down to eleven , the satisfaction achieved from beat ing your own record as to say, instead of competing in a large field , is something that a lot of people are finding very very satisfying and very rewarding . So these are different sports that people are starting to take

part in, and the department, through the Department of Parks , is working in co-operation with those people in establishing proper cross-country ski trails and other sites. We're also , as I mentioned , working with the Manitoba Marathon, which will I think spar k quite a bit of running enthusiasm, so there are some areas which we are look ing at and which we have realized will be in a growth situation over the next few years. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a)(1) - the Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Chairman , the re is sort of a similar aspect to what the Minister was talking about , and it' s basically teams performing in that the way that he was talking about individuals performing in terms of beating the ir own records rather than beating the other team , etc . And I assume from his comments that ther e sort of hasn 't been an exploration of that development, which is one more way to get more people involved without only accepting the best people in any particular sport. · The annual report, Mr. Chairman , outlines a number of programs and activities of this

section , and I believe they would all still be the same , the former Recreation Branch under Mr. Miller, under Human Resources Development , and I wonder if the Minister could at this , or the grant assistance part of it, tell us if those programs are still continuing at the same level and which ones of them have been changed , deleted , added to. That's on page 15 of the '77 blue report that we have on the ledge . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. BANMAN: The grants have increased over the last number of years , and the reason for that • - I say they have increased and they haven't.

What has happened is, in the Sports Admin. Centre for instance , we have got more sports groups in. So as they enter we provide funding for them and as a result the budget has increased . Also dealing with grants to recreation directors to municipalities , because more municipalities are getting involved and forming recreation distr icts , that particular grant has increased too. But the level of funding to the individual municipalities remains relatively constant. But there has been an increase because more people have availed themselves of that particular program. MR.

McBRYDE: Would it help the Minister by my being a little more specific? Under the report I'm looking at, they talk about the Whiteshell Water Safety Program, the Northern Swim Program and the Frontier Games Program - are any of those programs included in this budget here? MR. BANMAN: The Frontie r Games are sponsored out of lotteries and I understand that Canada Works will be involved with the Northern Swim Program and the exact amount of the Frontier Games 3215

Thursday, April 26, 1979 is $22,000.00. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman , t here is a list of other activities here and I wonder if there has been a change in those. There is, of course, reference to the Leadership Training at Gimli and they are talking about playground leaders , sailing instructors, adult activity workers, camp counsellors, regional recreational conferences, swimming instructors, figure skating instructors, etc, etc . And I wonder if there has been any change in those types of activities , reduction and increase -• or a change in the emphasis in any of those activities? MR.

BANMAN: There 's been some increases in things such as facility managers. I understand from staff that the same level of service with the exception of a few increases here and there are still in place . MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(aX1)-pass; 2.(aX2)-pass; 2.(aX3)-pass ; 2.(bX1)-pass - the Honourable Member for The Pas. I didn 't notice the motion. MR. McBRYDE : Mr. Chairman , on 2.(bX1), 2.(bX2), maybe the Minister could give us our staff breakdown for this and if he could give us the location of staff as well as, if he has that information in front of him? MR.

BANMAN: We have offices located in Westman in Brandon , Eastman in Beausejour , Pembina Valley in Morden , Interlake in Gimli , Central Plains in Portage, and the Parklands Region in Dauphin . And then we also have two in Norman ; one in The Pas consisting of two people and one in Thompson consisting of two people. MR. McBRYDE : . . . the total staff numbers and increases , reductions over the last two years? MR. BANMAN: There is 20.3 SMYs , exactly the same as last year . MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(bX1)-pass ; 2.(bX2)-pass; 2.(cX1)-pass - the Honourable Member for the The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr.

Chairman , I wonder if the Minister could elab orat e on this item? MR. BANMAN : It's a Northern Affairs program which is going to be delive red by us. The two regional offices in the north are invo lved in that , along with the salaries of the two individuals . There are two clerical people that act as typing support and support staff; so you are looking at a total of 6 SMYs . MR. McBRYDE: That's 6 SMYs in additi on to the 20.3 that the Minister listed - it's an additional 6? MR. BANMAN: If I could just interject here. There 's also provisions fo1r community recreation workers - The New Caree rs. MR.

McBRYDE: Yes, Mr . Chairman, I can recall, as the former Minister responsible for this agreement , that they were able to squeeze funding for these offices out of that agreement in the past. We were always able to, and the Feds never caught us and comp lained ... MR. BANMAN: Since it is providing a good service for northern Manitoba , I think it's perfectly acceptable that it is cost-shared with the federal governmen t. MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr .

Chairman , I am assuming then that the quest ions that I ask about New Careers further up would relate to those four community positions the Minister is talking about , relate to those . The Member for Rupertsland, who has gone back into the other Estimates because a northern item was coming up there , mentioned that one of the six people that left the program had talked to him and said that it appeared that his position was going to be eliminated, so he took another job before he got any notice of termination.

I wonder if the Minister could say whether or not there was any intention to terminate some of those positions. MR. BANMAN: WELL 1 think if you look at what happened in other departments dealing with 3216 •

Thursday, April 26, 1979 New Careers and what happened with New Careers period, I guess the re was some uneasiness on the behalf of some people . But as far as I am aware there have not been any orde rs gone out from anybody that there would be terminations or anything like tha t, but maybe that particular individual felt because Renewab le Resources or somebody was not hiri ng t heir New Careers or was not providing funding for him , that they would be in the same pos ition . I can't say if that is a fact or not.

I should point out , coming bac k to the funding of them , that there is, I understand, a component in the Northland Agreement dealing with recreation and this comes under that particular section. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, when we get to (c)

(3) Grant Assistance , I would like the Minister to explain that item . MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(c)(1)-pass ; 2. (c)(2)-pass ; 2.(c)(3)-pass - the Member for The Pas. I recognize the member . MR. McBDE: ady , I asked the question alre so maybe the Minister could answer it. MR. BANMAN: There's $5,000 out of that $7,500 that goes to the Northern Recreation Councils and $2,500 which goes for arts and education equipment for remote communities. It's the same level of funding as last year . MR.

McBRYDE: . . . the grant assistance to the Norman region and part of that would be a thousand something dollars which is not a large item. I thought the Minister mentioned something about sports equipment. Is he talking about sports equipment or recreation equipment or is there a difference? MR. BANMAN: There's a difference because we mentioned that recreation is what people do with their leisure time and in some instances it comes under the form of art, I guess, if you are taking about a potter 's wheels .

I know we just went through one program where a number of remote communities got potter's wheels and some other things to try and teach people the art of pottery making . So what happens in this particular program is that it deals with arts and educational equipment and we have another program under the lotteries which deals with sports equipment. The figure under the sports equipment is about $10,000 .00. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2. (c)(3)-pass; 2.(4)- pass; Resolution 56. Resolved that there be granted to her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 ,168,300 for Fitness, Recreation and Sport-pass . MR.

McBRYDE: We're wanting to talk on the lotteries item. MR. DOERN: We're going on to the lotteries item . MR. BANMAN: I wonder if I could just before we start , the staff has done some work in getting some of the figures together and if I could give the members .. . I don't know if I want to table it, but I can give the members where qe sit at with lotteries funds right now , what's committed and . .. MR. DOERN: I'll wait for that. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(a) - the Honourable Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman , I've had a particular interest in this field and as I say, I'm not the expert on lotteries but I was one of the first in the field because you might recall I guess in 1969 or 1970 I introduced the bill that enabled lotteries to come about in the Province of Manitoba. My colleague . . m no, he didn 't second it, no he was here at that time. At any rate, it was very interesting to read the speeches at that time that were made, to hear the speeches by the members of the Conservative Party which promised rack and ruin, and some of those golden oldies in the Legislature including yourself , Mr.

Chairman, one of the goldenest Hawaii-tanned members of the government benches, but in the Opposition members in those days . So there was all sorts of doom and gloom and promises of moral decline and moral decay and everybody running wild, but it didn't come to pass. I wanted to just make a few remarks here and my colleague, the Member for St. Johns, is going 3217

Thursday, April 26, 1979 to carry the bulk of the burden since our number one critic is in the hospital. 1 wonder if the Minister could just briefly comment on the . .. there was a bit of a federal disaster commenced by, as I call her , Mrs. Campagno lo, in terms of her proposal to take over certain provincial lotteries and moneys expended , etc . Was the Province of Manitoba involved in that or did that have nothing to do with us? MR. BANMAN: Well , it very distinctly had something to do with us.

What was happening and what she was proposing is getting into the lotteries field in competition for the dollar tickets which would have impacted on the Western Lottery very extensively . Our particular feelin~J on that - and I guess most of the provinces are waiting with anticipation right now to see what happens with the Federal Election because the Conservative Party has promised to hand over the reins of Loto Canada to the provinces.

I might add that at different Ministerial meetings , most of us feel all across Canada that we could go ahead and administrate that lottery because it's a ten dollar lottery and distribute it within our regular system without having to build up a large bureaucratic system and that would then allow the provinces to take advantage of that particular lottery and administrate it to the different sports and cultural organizations throughout the province . So that 's what we're looking at right now . But there is no question about it.

Had the Federal Government gone ahead with their instant win-type ticket or their machines that they were contemplating installing , it would have been another person on the marketplace and made it much tougher for our Western Canada Lottery and also for the Provincial , which is now a national lottery also . MR. DOERN: There was a time a couple of years ago when it seemed that there was going to be more and more frequent lotteries .

We had Olympic lotteries going , we had the various provincial lotteries going and there was even talk I think at one point of a weekly lottery in Manitoba and , you know, the next obvious was going to be daily , and then of course it wou ld be hourly , or instant , and I was one who was never very happy about this trend . And then we now seem to be getting into an area of greater co-operation and perhaps a reduction in the number of lotteries in the province and maybe even in the country . I just wonder if the Minister could make a general comment on what he sees as the trend in Manitoba and in Canada.

Will there be a continued mul tiplication and duplication competition going on or does he see a limiting of lotteries and a reduction of the number of lotteries? Probably the result of that being less money spent on advertising and promotion and maybe more profit to the various governments. What is happening at this time? MR. BANMAN: Well again , it all depends how actively the Federal Government's going to get involved. If the Federal Government would turn over the functions and the distributions of Loto Canada to the provinces , what would happen is that they could incorporate that in their existing system .

It was only a few months ago that the Maritimes and Quebec joined in an agreement with the rest of the provinces in Canada to enter the Provinc ial Corporation , so we are now in the process of having a national lotteries deal ing with the Provincial. The other problem and I guess which prompted the former member who was in charge of lotteries, the Member for St. Boniface , to move on establishing the Western and establishing the Provincial later, was the fact that you had a perfusion of different lotteries springing up all over the place, and what was happening is you started having jurisdictional problems.

So under the Western Lotteries Agreement, I might add that I think the Territories are now coming in. I just had a letter the other day that the Territories want to come in. So when you do enter a lottery like that, you give up certain rights that you are not going to run all other kinds of lottHri es.

So o really what is happening is there is a coming together, there is a real move by the d,jfferent jurisdictions to not only do away with the competition interprovincially and of the problems of tickets crossing borders and stuff like that because of the Criminal Code , but also one which will add to the accountability of the ticket. When you go to the bearer ticket system , it becomes much less cumbersome and is much more efficient and also less of a chance to have problems with it.

So there is a move afoot , I would say, and especially with the close co-operation we have had with the Western Lottery with the other western provinces , that if the Federal Government would get out of the field , it would provide a very good package in the system , where we would then have the one dollar ticket which is the Western , the five dollar which is the Provincial , and Loto Canada which is a ten dollar ticket. It would cover the range and you would get away from this business of having all kinds of tickets floating all over the place . MR. DOERN: Well , 1 would say, Mr.

Chairman , through you to the Minister that I think that would be a highly desirable outcome and goal that should be attempted to be reached . 1 am now looking at the Annual Report of the Lotteries Commissio n. There is a few question s 3218 -· !

-· -· Thursday, April 26, 1979 1 want to ask based on this report. For instance, in one area near the beginning , it suggests that in excess of $1.5 million of lottery revenue was expended by the two departments to assist culture, recreation and sports. But then further on, we learn that profits seem to be of the order of $3.4 million. I just wonder if the Minister can explain this apparent discrepancy. What is the amount of profit and don 't all profits go to culture, recreation and sport s? . MR. BANMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

One of the reasons for the implementation of the Haig Report, was to try and get a handle on many of these things that were happening and trying to get the whole system running a little smoother. One of the recommendations of the Haig report, and I think everybody will agree to it, is that the annual report should be maybe beefed-up a bit, and a little more explanation put in, showing all the Grants that have been awarded throughout the year .

The information is all available , some of it in the Department of Tourism and Cultural Affairs book, some in the former Department of Fitness and Amateur Sport, so that really what the Haig report is saying is that we should put it all together in one package so that the public will have it at their fingertips and be able to disseminate the information very easily . The profit to the province after Corporation A received their share of the commissions for the ticket sales, was roughly, I believe, about $3.2 million this year .

Out of that, there are certain funds that are committed, for instance, half a million dollars of that was committed to the Downtown Restoration Project, which will be paid out on a basis of $100,000 a year over the next five years, and I think the first payment just went out last week . That is administered by the Cultural Affairs people . So there are commitments throughout the sheets that I distributed - I should have had more copies - but they indicate that there are certain commitments that are made against that money .

For instance, back in 1973 there were some moneys expended on the Capital Facilities Grant by the Department of Finance, there wasn 't enough lotteries moneys at that time, and as a result the Department of Finance has a . . . or we have an Accounts Payable there of about $423 ,000.00. So these are all areas where there have been moneys expended or earmarked to be expended and that's one of the problems we've had in the last number of years, is that it's not put down in layman's terms, and we hope to do that this next year. MR.

DOERN: It also says at the beginning of the Annual Report that rural Manitoba was a beneficiary of approximately 70 percent of the total grants paid by the Department of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs. I was just wondering if the Minister can explain why there was that sort of breakdown as opposed to 50-50 , or 60-40? MR.

BANMAN: Well, it's mainly due to the Recreation Capital Facilities Program , which was instituted, but it should be pointed out that, when dealing with that, you have things such as - and I guess it could be argued that they are for all Manitobans - the grant to the Mus eum; the grant to the Art Gallery; grants to the symphony, the ballet, and other companies; grants such as the Downtown Historic Restoration Project, which is basically Winnipeg. So the largest chunk of the moneys, as far as the Capital Recreation Facilities Grant, did go to rural and small towns . MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister has made a couple of references to the Downtown Historic Restoration. Now I'm familiar with many restorations and many goals along these lines, but I'm not familiar with that particular heading, and could you indicate what is done in that area, and what buildings or areas we're talking about? MR. BANMAN: It's the old market square. It's a matching formula with the city of Winnipeg to try and get some renewal and save some of the historic sites in that particular area. -(lnterjection) Yes. MR. DOERN: Can you tell me the name of your advertising agency and how long you've used them? MR.

BANMAN: Muller , Hirayama and Graves and they've been there since ... the same advertising executives, I understand, since 1974, some people from Dunsky. ... MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, again in the Annual Report.

Schedule of net ticket revenues - well, the member thinks that that's embarrassing to me, it isn't - it used to be Dalton Camp all the time, but we now have to have some change. Dalton Camp I thought was a very capable gentleman, 3219

Thursday, April 26, 1979 he's the man who dumped John Diefenbaker as you may recall. Mr. Chairman , net ticket revenues , on this

schedule there 's some very interesting figures about revenues from the Western Express Lottery , from the Provincial Lottery , the Olympic Lottery and the Western Lottery , and I find it hard to believe some of these figures , which I'm sure are accurate , but it says, for example , that the Olympic Lottery in the year ending 1977 - ticket sales of, $634 ,000 ; cost of tickets sold , $630,000 ; net revenues , $4,000 .00.

My question s are these: First of all , how come it cost so much to sell these tickets ; and secondly , following from that, you mean to tell me that on all the Olympic Lottery tickets sold in Manitoba we made $4,000.00? MR. BANMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman , in this particular insta nce, the M anitoba Lott eries Commi ssion was acting as the purchasing agent. We also received 50 cents a ticket for tickets sold within the province of Manitoba , which goes to the Department of Fitness , Recreation and Sport for sport utilization . MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman , that would suggest tha t if we rece ive 50 cents a ticke t that mak ing a profit of $4,000 there were 8,000 tickets sold . At 10 buck s a crack , that' s $80,000.00? MR. BANMAN: A futher clarification on that: The Lotter ies acted as the distributor which boug ht and then sold the tickets to the different groups - they were distr i bu ti n ~l them . How this works is that the federal government , after a certain series, will send us a cheque for the number of tickets sold within the province , so we don 't take our commiss ion off the t ickets , we get a cheque after the series is over .

Here 's the number of tickets that were sold in the province of Manitoba , and you get 50 cents a ticket. MR. DOERN: In one sense , was it worth our while to be invol ved, or was it a case of we just didn 't have any choice in the matter? Certainly financially , it wasn't wo rth our while to be involved . MR.

BANMAN: Well, one of the problems Loto Canada has had is they haven 't had the market -e penetration that they 'd want to have ; one of the reasons maybe is the aggress ive marketing of Winsday as well as the Provincial , which is highly organized th roughout the Prairies , and as a result the ticket sales haven 't been that big. But last year 's commission , if you want to call it that , on that or receipts until February 28, and I refer the member to the sheet that I distributed , was $111,000 .00. MR. DOERN: I'm saying again , Mr.

Chairman , that on gross sales, I gat her then that receiving this $4,000, our commission was roughly 1/2 of 1 percent , that 's what it boils down to. MR. BANMAN: Well , I guess it's an accounting procedure , and you could maybe have said that .. . we can get you some details on it, but it's a matter tha t this particula r organization handled the sale of the tickets and the prov ince later on got a cheque.

Very often what happens is you deduct your commission from the . . . in other words , you buy the ticket tl1at much cheaper , and you get it right there, but in this particular instance the federal government wants to send us a cheque and sends it directly to the department. MR. DOERN: It would also appea r from this

schedule , Mr. Chairman , again of the Annual Report that the Western Express Lottery, that is the lucrative lottery that overshadowed all other efforts. MR. BANNAN: Yes, that is right. The only diff erence is that the Provincial ticket , which is now becoming a national ticket will become more profitable, because you have more people buying in the different series, and that means it wili reduce the cost of the ticket. But the other thing I should point out is that,

whereas Corporation A, which is the Western Lotteries Manitoba Distributor Incorporated , which is the Arts Council , the United Way or the Advisory Council on Fitness and Sport receives 10 cents for a ticket there ,

whereas on the other side , that particular group receives 50 cents per ticket, so, there is more money being made per ticket-wise , by the Western Manitoba Lotteries Distributors Incorporated on the Provincial and it's fairly lucrative as far they 're concerned. MR. DOERN: The last point I wanted to raise here , Mr. Chairman , is in regard to the Haig Report . It's quite an extensive repor t and I was just wonde ring if the Minister could give us a capsule comment again. It sounded to me a few minutes ago , as if he was saying that the report had been implemented 3220 ...

• .. Thursday, April 26, 1979 or was in the process of being implemented or adopted. I just wondered , just where is this report now in government? MR. BANMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, the majority of the recommendations, some of which are common sense , such as the one that I mentioned about the reporting . I think all members of the Legislatu re would agr ee to that - to bring forward a report, which is easily read and contains all the informations dealing with lotteries, the activi ties , the amount of funds that are available and how they 're dispersed .

So that is, I guess, more or less just a sort of common sense one , which we've adopted. The other thing that we are in the process of doing right now is holding talks with total community involvement , and with the Manitoba Sports Federation, to see how some of the recommendations of the Haig Report can be implemented. We hope in the near future , to have negotiations completed with the Manitoba Sports Federation for the ent ry into Corporation A, and those negotiations are under way right now . So, we have started to implement some of the aspects of the Haig Report.

There is also other areas which will require legislative authority to make certain changes and we will be hopefully , within the next session, not within this session but next session bring forward a bill dealing with the problems that Haig raises and incorporating some of the ideas that he has brought forward in the Commission Report. MR. DOERN: Is Mr. Haig still in the employ of the government, in regard to this commission? MR. BANMAN: Not at the present time , Mr. Chairman .

We have been talking to him about the possibilities of him getting involved in the implementation of some of those recommendations dealing specifically with some of the legislative changes that will be required to bring that about , and also , to deal with some of the groups that will be involved . MR. DOERN: Could the Minister provide us with information on how much the Commissioner was paid for his study, and secondly, how much the total commission or committee cost to put this report together? MR. BANMAN: The commission was run through the Attorney-General 's department , and I haven't got those

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-3-48b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 3rd hansardpdf 48b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	ed534890508f50cd680debeb68ea8af73b00ebd8

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