~!ay 21, 1976 Taoe ~o . 2869 NH - 1 The ;House met at 10:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order', please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: ~- SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, last Fall I was requested by my colleague, the hon. Ed Maynard, ~inister of ¥2n~ower and Industrial Relations,to investigate the question of the incorporation of the .

Company Town of Buchans, so that the "People of Buchans t~ould be in a bett-:r position to control and direct their own affairs rather than remaining under the direction of the two corporations, Asarco · and Price Company, whose prime concern is the development of the mineral resource~ of the area. The Buchans Task Force had advised the hon.

Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations that it felt that the incorporation of the town would be the first rnanjor step in insuring the future viability of the community and that it did not see the necessity of delaying this action until the final task force report is submitted to government.

I c·1as requested accordingly to establish a negotiating team under the auspicies of the Department of Munici?al Affairs and Rousing to immediately investigate the question of the incorporation of the Company Tmm of Buchans. • I considered that this matter was of such importance that it should be handled at the highest level possible and I accordingly wrote to Mr. E.L. Neil, Vice-President of Price Company Limited and Mr. T. A.

Snedden, Vice President Mining Operations, Asarco, asking them on behalf of their corporations tc agree in principle to the incorporation of the Company Totm of Buchans, and to nominate senior members of their staff to act on their behalf as members of a special committee which I propose to establish to consider the eventual incornoration of the communit y . In 8472

}1ay 21, 1976 Tape No. 2869 N!1 - 2 MR. PECKFORD: response to this request, Mr. G. L. Colbourne, Vice President of Price Company Limited, and Mr. J .E. A. }'.acDonald, Assistant to the Vice President, Asarco, were appointed to the Committee. I appointed Mr . P. Hithers, Assistant Deputy Minister of my department, and Mr. J. T. Allston of t!!Y department, who is also a member fo the Task Force, to be the other members of the Committee.

Before this Committee met, the Local Government Sub-committee of the Task Force had bad the oppo~tunity to carry out an Attitudes Survey of all the adult residents.. of Buchans, one of the results of which was to ind i cate that some 68~ of the residents of the entire co=unity were in favour of local government for Buchans, anc that 42~ stated a_preference for a single elected Council for the whole community. The Sub-comm~ttee consequently recommended the incorporation of Buchans as a single municipality.

The Special Committee met earlier this year and at • that time it was also learned that because of reduced production levels and higher mining costs, income from the base metal mining operation at Buchans is now and will continue, during the life of the current mining operations, to be substantially less than it has been in previous years. As a result, neither A~arco nor Price will be in a position to continue to operate a~d support the Company Town of Buchans at its present level of services. All matters taken together reinforced the need to incorporate Buchans as a municipality with a minimum of delay.

Following discussions with my officials, it appears that under the circumstances, it will in the first instance be best to incorporate the present Company Town as a Local Improvement District and to leave the existing municipality, which is adjacent t!o the Company T01m, unchanged at the present time; however, as soon as the difficulties of initial incorporation have been overcome, then both the Local Improvement District and the Municipalit y should be amalgamated as a single municipality. 8473

~ray 21, 1976 Tape ~o. 2869 N'!~- 3 ~. PECKFORD: A Local Improvement District when established would not automatically assume responsibility for the maintenance and operation of full municipal services. Its Board of Trustees would be in a position to assess the problems associated with the takeover of each of the municipal services and negotiate either directly or through my department with the owners, Price and Asarco, for their takeover and for a level of grants in lieu of taxes to be established to supplement local revenue and to ensure the proper operation of services.

It should be understood that under the 1905 Act, Anglo-Newfoundland De•1elopment Limited and its successors are "exempt from all municipal taxation", The two companies are in agreement with the proposed incorporation and have suggested that the Special Committee be kept in operation to assist in negotiations for the ta!ceover of municipal services.

In using this approach, the takeover of municipal services would be phased so that the Board of Trustees ~.rould be in a position to est4blish the satisfactory operation and functioning • of ea~~ separate facility or group of facilities before taking on additional responsibilities. It would also ~ke availr.ble to the community the various Provincial, and in some instances, Federal, sraP.ts ~nd other financial support that is presently not avail~ble to it.

In the event of closedown of current mining operations, there 11ill be an admiP_istration in existence vhic!"l is ca[lable of operating and maintaining those services which are essential to the continued existence of the communi~y. There is another important issue which whilst not directly a part of the incorporation of Buchans, is,nevertheless vital to its operation and to the future of the families now living in Buchans, and that is the question of housing. At the present time all the houses in the Company Town, with one or two special "xceptions, are mro.ed bv Asarco or Price and rented to their emuloyees.

There is a stron;:: local feeling that 847~

May 21, 1975 Tape No. 286~ NH- 4 ~ffi.. PECKFORD : the occupants of these homes should have the opportunity to o"~ therr: and individual ownership is virtuall y essential if the future municipality is to operate satisfactorily. The Special Committee discussed this matter and again there ha~been agreement in principle to the transfer of all the Company housing to the present occupants with the exception of a small number of :staff houses which they wish to retain for their o"~ purposes.

There are ~~ny problems associated with such a transfer, not the least of which is the survey of individual house lots and the preparation of title deeds. However, these can be worked out and it is obvious that the residents of Buchans must themselves be involved in working out satisfactor_y arrangements. ~. ~~Y: Would that be for $1! MR. PECKFORD: I understand that the Task Force is addressing itself to this particular issue. The whole details have not been worked out as to exact costs and so on. But t~e have aBreement in principle that the cost should not be all that high.

In response to the request of the Buchans Task Force transmitted to roe by the bon. }unister of ~~ower and Industrial Relations, and as a result of the meetings with the Special Committee, I propose to seek approval of the Lieutenant-Governor in Council for the incorporation of the Company Town of Buchans as a Local Improvement District and the appointment of a Board of Trustees on the understanding that within a short period of time the Local Improvement District and the existing and adjacent Municipality will be amalgamated as a single municipality.

My purpose =or making this statement at this time is to inform the residents of Buchans of the ~urrent status of incorporation and housing issues, as I understand that they are naturally very concerned and may otherwise be unaware of the facts of the situation. SO~ RON. MEMBERS : Rear! Hear! 8475

~1ay 21, 1976 Tape ~;o. 2%9 }ffi. SPEAKER: Before recognizing the Leader of the Opposition I would like to, on behalf of han. members, welcome to the galleries fifteen grade eleven students from St. Catherine's High School in Grand Falls, accompanied by their teacher l·!rs. Ursula Wall, and on behalf of all han. members I wish that your stay will be an interesting and informative one. SOME RON. ~ERS: Rear! Hear! XR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. ~. ROBERTS: Thank you, ~!r. Speaker. Let me in responcUn~S to the minister's state~ent welcome it.

I think it is a steo forward and a very welcome step forward. ~y colleague for Hindsor-Buchans (Mr. Flight), thE:' l!lember for the district of 1-!indsor-Buchans, told me sometime ago that he expected the minister would be making a statement shortly. I believe my colleague, the member, has a good understanding of what is happening with respect to the work of the Task Force and that is right and proper and he had hoped that he would be • able to respond for us and we had agreed to do that. Unfortunately my colleague will not be in the House this morning.

He is attending the funeral of a very close friend of his - :T .. "Sc::rmm: I did not ~:nO"' t~at. MR. ROBERTS: No, I am not saying that the minister knew or should know but I want to explain why the member is not here, A very close friend of his from lluch<J."lS died at quite an early age, quite tragically,and the ma~ber is not here because he is attending the funeral. So he will be, I have no doubt, making some comment on it, presumably in the form of a press release or in debate in the House and certainly I am glad the minister said he was not aware of it.

There is no way he could have been aware of this and certainly it is not anything to his discredit. But we do ~felcome the government's decision, Sir. It is a step forward and I would hope that the minister Hould take this process a step further. As far as I knmv ;;e now, now that the ., 8~76

Nay 21, 1976 Tape No. 2869 N'1 - 6 1-ffi. ROBER':'S: government have taken their decision with respect to Buchans, we now have only one company town left in this Province and that 8477

• :ray 21, 1976 Tape no. 2870 Page 1 - mw Hr. Roberts. is the company towa of Churchill Falls. Labrador City and the city of Wabush in Western Labrador which in a sense are company towns have, I think, come beyond that status and there are ongoing discussions and negotiations with respect to changing the status of the municipal administration in those towns. We now have only the one left,leaving aside the Western Labrador communities and that is the community of Churchill Falls in the central part of Labrador, in the district of ~askaupi.

It is a conpany tow~ for the same reason as all the other conpany tow"":l.S we had, historial reasons. The company built the town, the company still owns the tow~. ~vell~I would suggest to the !Il.inister that we should very much put our attention to looking at the status of Churchill Falls. I do not want to go over the events of the strike and obviously there is blame on both sides, but I think the strike we saw there this Winter would not have been nearly as long and nearly as difficult if it had not been that the management of the company and the management of the town were one in the same people.

That cannot have any affect other than to ex~erbate the labour-management situations and indeed all the conditions of life. I think that while company towns may well have served Newfoundland and Labrador well in some instances, and certainly have produced communities that did not exist before, that while they may have served vell in tC!e past they have no place in this day and age now. ,\nd if the minister's policy, if the government's policy is enunciated by the minister with respect to Buchans, is the policy they have adopted generally, then I would welcome it.

I think the time has come when we should end company towns in this Province. We should realize that companies who go into these areas and set up communities are doing so for their own benefit. That is right and proper. But let us realize that that is t:1eir only am and let us realize that the public interest cannot be protected in a company tow~ situation, that it must be the goverTh"ent tr~t ~akes sure there are mechanisms and structures in place and to ensure 8~78

}!ay 21' 1976 Tape no. 2870 Page 2 - mw Hr. Roberts. that the public's interest, the interest of the people living in those communities,is protected. And I think the way to do that, Sir, is the sort of move the minister has announced today with respect to Buchans ending coonpany domination ami letting thE people -be it in Buchans or be it in Churchill Falls or be it in any other community in this Province - let th~ have the s~e rights, and the same responsibilities~as people anywhere else in any other co~unity in this Province.

Subject to that, Sir, I think the minister's announcement is a step forward, and I kno·w that my colleague from l.Jindsor - 3uchans C~r. Flight), who is so intimately connected, his home in fact is in Buchans, he is a former deputy mayor of that community, very interestad in the community life, that he will be making some futher comments at another place, and I know they •nll be of great relevance and value too. SOME RON. ~3ERS: Hear, hear! PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Baie Verte - Wnite Bay. ~R. RID~OUT: Mr.

Speaker, I wish to present a petition on behalf of 340 residents of the community of Seal Cove in my district. The prayer of the petition suggests or asks that the Department of Transportation and Communicati~ns begin some work rather soon on the upgrading. and eventual paving of the road from Baie Verte to Seal Cove. Sir, in supporting the petition let me say that as far as I ~~ow,to the best of my knowledge 1the road from Baie Verte to Seal Cove was the first piece of road ever constructed on the Baie Verte Peninsula. I think the road is more than twenty years old,from what I have been told.

It is very old, and it is in very, very poor condition. It is only twelve miles of road, Sir. But like the old song, it is up one hill and dow~ the other. You just get sea-sick 8479

.. ~~ay 21, 1976 Tape .:10 2870 ?age 3 - !!It-T ~1r. Rideout. driving over it. It is a treacherous road, hair-pin turns,and it is frightening to drive over. The road itself , serves two communites, the community of Seal Cove, about 1,200 people, and the community of Wild Cove, which has about 300 or 400 people. More than ninety per cent of the people in those two communities must drive daily that road to Baie Verte to their places of work, whether it be Advocate ~~ines or in the hospital or in the stores in Baie Verte.

From the community of Seal Cove itself every day there go two sixty passenger buses bringing children from Seal Cove into Baie Verte to go to school •. ~d also there is one bus going from Wild Cove into Baie Verte. So about 150 children, twice daily, travel that road to Baie Verte. Numerous attempts have been made by the citizens of Seal Cove to have something.done to improve the road over the past few years. The past two successive years, for example, they have been told that it would be considered in the next year's budget. They were told that in 1975, and they have been told it again now in 1976.

And to this date nothing very substantial has happened. The people are not unr~asonable, They are not expecting that th~ twelve niles of road ~e done in one shot. With our present financial conditions that would be unreasonable indeed. But ' they are expecting, and •Jhat they are asking for, is tha t a start be :rrade, that the government and the department show its intentions and show it in a material fashion by beginning to do something with that very poor stretch of road connecting Seal Cove to Baie Verte. Sir, I support the petition. I support the people of Seal Cove and \.Tild Cove in this request.

I ask that it be laid on the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. sam: HON. ~~1BERS: Hear! Hear! 8480

May 21, 1976 Tape no. 2870 Page 4 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for Twillingate. HR. SMALUvOOD: ~r. Speaker, I have great personal pleasure in supporting the prayer of this petition and more particularly w~ll for t~o reasons:

(1) Because I had the pleasure of putting the road there in the first place;and

(2) Because if it is the same road that I am thinking of, it is a road unique, I believe, in Ne\,•foundland' s road building history. Is that not the road that goes for miles through solid rock? They had to blast the road out of solid rock for a distance of - M!'.. '!O?,.GlL '\ : Twenty-two miles. MR.

SMALLWOOD: No, but this is for a distance of seven or eight miles, just nothing but solid rock, And in the construction of thGt roaC o~E man lost his life, one of the workers) one of the road construction workers was burned to death in a little shack in which he slept and ate, and not only he but a number of other men. The shack caught fire, and he was in at the inner end of it. The fire separated him from the exit, and he lost his life.

There is no road in Newfoundland - I hope there never will be another built under such crazy, such impossible conditions, because you could not just follo~ the surface of the hill, of the mountain, or the rock and go that way. 7hat ~ould not be a road. ~~d you had to cut, hue and cut and blast all the way through. So that it is rock on both sides and rock underneath. You are going over solid rock, through a solid rock hill for a distance of about seven or eight miles. I just do not kno~ ~hat the government could do to improve it.

I suppose it would not be a cause - would it? - of hauling thousands of truck loads of gravel and just spreading the gravel. l1R. RIDEOUT: I do not think it is the same road you are talking about. MR. DOODY: You are on the ~ong road again. HP.. SMALLWOOD: Hay be. I may be. I built them all anyway. SO!:E RON. !~mERS: Oh, oh! 8.'f81 "T

~-' I :ray 21, 1976 Tape no. 287 0 ?ag e 5 - ::t"' :n. SlL<\.LLliOOD: The one that goes down to the mine at Tilt Cove, goes down toward Tilt Cove, and then with roads leading off it, one down to Shoe Cove, and one down to these two places mentioned, Harbour Round - is it1 - or Round Harbour. MR.. PECKFORD : Round Harbour and Snook's Arm. MR. SHALLWOOD: Right. MR.. PECKFORD : You finished Snook's Arm. C1R. S}t<\LLWOOD: That is good. I congratulate the minister.

In other words three or four per cent of the mileage he did, th~ee or four per cent of the mileage the present minister built, and I congratulate him and thank him fer that and hope that when the times are better they will build more roads do,vn there on that great Peninsula. That might be three or four years from now, but she •.;rill blow again, ~ir. Speaker. She lvill blow again. There will be some money to spare - MR. NEARY: A few weeks before the election. UR. SHALLWOOD: - after a while. And I hope that when that day comes more money will be spent in that great part of our Province amongst those great people.

HR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Fortune - Hermitage. }~. J. WINSOR: I would also like to lend my support to the petition presented by my colleague, the member for Baie Verte - White Bay Crr. ~~deout). After all that has been said about it, I do not think I should say very much more except to say that I 1vas in Seal Cove forty-two years ago, and I knew they would never build a road there, but now I find that they have after the petition has been presented.

But I think that the people who live in isolation, splendid isolation in places like Seal Cove and a few more I could mention, and there have been quite a number of petitions recently for these roads to be put in proper condition. 8~82

Xay 21, 1976 Page 6 - lll10 Today · we have school buses goin& over : hec wi:h chi l dren being ~'lockec abou: all over the place , Not only that 1 but it must be \"e::y cii!icul : io: the school buses ::o be maintained, and that is uby the cost o: transportation to schools back and forth is so expensive. I "'ill not say anv mor e except tQ sav that I a::: very happy ::o S"l..llport the petition presented by my hon . c oll eague . SO~ HO!'<. ~!!:!3::!RS: Hear, hear ! 8483

l l~ay 21, 1976 Tape 2871 IB-1 NOTICES OF t:OTION: MR. SPEAKER_: The hon. }tinister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, ! give notice that I will ~n tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Remove Anomalies And Errors In The Statute Law." (Bill No. 64) We are going to wipe out everything we have done in the last hundred years. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. MR. H. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act ".especting The Newfoundland ---Optometric Association And Governing The Practice Of Optometry In The Province." (Bill No. 57) .ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICZ HAS BEEN GIVEN: }!lt. SPEAKER: The hon. government Rouse Leader. MR. WELLS: ~~. Speaker, this is the answer to a question by the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) on this Southern Shore stadium. The position is that a commitment was given by the previous minister, Mr. Doyle,and in furtherance of that commitment - AN RON. MEMBER: When? MR.

WELLS: Sometime in 1974-1975. In furtherance of that commitment it was decided that the proper way to go about it would be by way of a feasibility study. The feasibility study has been conducted and the government received a copy of it by letter dated April 29,197~, So that the officials in the department and the Southern Shore Recreation Committee are now evaluating the study to see what sort of stadium, where it should go so that the people on the Southern Shore would get the maximum benefit from it.

Of course details have to be worked out such as the money that they will have to raise and put into it and also whatever the government would put into it. So this has been ongoing for about two years. _J;OME RON. MEMBERS: Rear, hear! l'1R. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. HR. PECKFORD: Xr. Speaker, I would like to table the answers to question No. 578 asked by the hon. member for LaPoile (Hr. Neary) and - 848~

t }lay 21, 1976 Tape 2871 IB-2 MR. PECRFC!RD: question No~sked by the bon. member for Burin-Placentia West (Mr. Canning). _MR. SPB.ILJ{ER: The bon, Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. MR. HAYNARD: Mr. Speaker, I have the answers to questions Nos. ~ 62 and !> asked by the bon. member for Twillillgate (Mr. Smallwood) and the answer to question No. 664 asked by the bon. member for ---LaPoile (Mr. Neary). MR. SPEAKEr.: The hon. ~inister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I have the answers to some questions; question 56~s asked by the hon. member for Carbonear {Mr. R.

Hoores); que s tion 519 as aske d by the hon. member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan); .._ question 565 as asked by the member for Carbonear (Mr. R. Moores); -question 584 as asked by the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) ; question 645 as asked by the member for Carbonear (Mr. R. Moores) ; ...__... and question ~asked by the hon. member for Carbonear (Mr. R. Moores), questions 568, 567, 564, 562 and 561 as asked by the bon. member for '- ............. -----.. - '-- Carbonear (}:r. P .• Moores), question 73 as asked by the bon. member ..............-. for T~-illingate (~.r. Smallwood).

You can understand now why he took a while. 0 0 0 ~!P .• PECI'"J'ORD: On a point of otder. I am wondering if the House would give me leave to revert back to Presenting Reports Of Standing And Special Committees so that I can announce the makeup of two committees that have been agreed to by all sides of the House. MR. SPEAKER: Do the bon. gentlemen agree? Agreed, .MR. PECKFOP.D: Well, }'.r. Speaker, some time ago I was given the task of bringing in a report on various committees to be set up by the House and we had meetings with, of course, the other side on this matter.

I am in a position to report the establishment of the public accounts committee that will consist of the bon. member for Burgee-Bay D'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) for Lewisporte (Mr. White), the bon. member for Carbonear (Mr. R. Moores), 8~85

------·---- Hay 21, 19 76 "Tape 2871 I.B- 3 MR. PECKYOIU>: the bon. member for Mom1t Pearl (Mr.N.Windsor) ,the h~n. member for Pleasantville (Mr. Dinn), the hon. member for Placetltia (Mr. Patterson) and the han. member for Mount Scio (Dr. R. Winsor) to be the han. members of that public ace:eom1ts c-ommittee. A second committee that was agree on was a Standing Orders Committee which would be chaired by the han. government House Leader, tnehon. Minis .ter of Justice, the han. melli:ler for Pleasantville (~!r. D:hm), the han. Leader of the Opposition and the hon. member for Belle~e (Mr.

Cali an) • These are the co1Jllllittees that have been agreed to by both sides of the House and I now have submitted my report on the constitution of these cO!IIIIlittees. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMRERS: Hear, hear! 8486 .•.

May 21, 1976 Tape 2872 IB-1 ORAL QUESTIONS : HR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for LaPoile. }lR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, I have a question for the }linister of Fisheries. Would the minister tell the House if the minister's department have any plans or any programmes to try and retrieve gill nets that have sunken to the bottom, the ghost nets,I think they are called, that have sunken to the bottom that are catching up all kinds of fish and depleting our fish stocks? Does the minister have any plans to deal with this serious problem? }lR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Fisheries. }lR. W. CAlrrER: Mr.

Speaker, last year we were on the hand of initiating ~ a programme of retrieving lost gill nets but in the meantime the federal government announced a programme. They did undertake certain work in that area, }lR : NEARY: Experimented. }lR. W. CARTER: retrieved quite a few and my understand of it is that this year there will be a continuation of that programme. Certainly it is a very important programme and if the federal government elects to discontinue that programme then I have no doubt that the Province will more than likely give some very serious thought itself to getting involved. Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. Would the minister tell the House if a decision yet has been taken on the location of a heritage village -1r in Newfoundland? Has a decision yet been taken on the location of the heritage village, the gift of the government of Canada, in Newfoundland? The hon. Hinister of Intergovernmental Affairs. MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, the bon. gentleman is certainly using loose language there when he says that the heritage village will be a gift of the government of Canada,because the government of Canada has said that they are prepared to make a gift, a donation of $1 million towards the cost. The cost of a heritage village would be at 8487

Y...ay 21, 1976 Tape 2872 ~. CROSBIE: least $10 million to $12 million, The cost of operating it at operating losses would be some hundred of thousands a year. So, you know~it is not quite a gift of a heritage village. IB-2 The position an~~y at the moment is that there has been no site selected. There is a committee that has made recommendations as to what criteria should govern the selection of a site. My hon. friend, the Minister of Tourism's d~partment are in charge of that but there is a committee that has recommended what the criteria should be. They have not been adopted yet.

There certainly would not be any heritage village in this Province unless the government of Canada is prepared to make a ~uch greater contribution than $1 million. We have told that to the government of Canada, ' to our representative in the government of Canada, the hon. Don Jamieson and he confirms what was said before when this idea originally came up.

As he envisages it the government of Canada would be prepared to make a further contribution and that when and if we are ready to proceed with a heritage village there would likely be a subsidiary agreement, a DFEE subsidiary agreement on Tourism or even on just a heritage village under which they would make~of course,an even greater contribution. Because obviously, }!r. Speaker, this Province cannot afford to put up $10 million or $11 million for a heritage village together with the federal govern~nt's $1 million and then to meet the operating losses that you have every year.

So we underst~~d that if a site is picked and that that plans are all completedly it would be possible to get further DREE assistance. So it may go ahead some time within the next two or three years. It is not imminent. So, Mr. Speaker, there is no site selected as yet. There have been recommendations from a committee for criteria which would be used in determining a site. Those criteria have not been accepted as yet. YR. NEAP_Y: Hhat connnittee is that? 8~8S

}lay 21, 1976 Tape 2872 IB-3 MR . CROSBIE: Of officials of the federal government and the provincial government. There will not be any heritage village this year,that you may count on~nor is it likely to be next year,but sometime perhaps in the next two or three years if we get a considerably greater contribution from the government of Canada. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition . }!R. ROBERTS: ¥x. Speaker, my question is for the acting ¥~ister of Rehabilitation and Recreation. It grows out of the answer which he was kind enough to give to the question asked by the gentleman for Bellevue (Mr.

Callan) which was the sense of the question I have asked, I think, five times so far this session. But the information is there and that is the important thing. Would the minister tell us, Sir,with respect to this feasibility study he mentioned who did the study. what firm or group,and also when it was begun? When was the study commissioned and got underway? Growing out of that.would the minister undertake to table a copy of the feasibility study? HR. SPEAKER: The bon. acting llinister of Rehabilitation and Recreation. }fit. WELLS: On the question of tabling the study,I do not think I ~ ought to do that, Mr.

Speaker, that is the property of the Southern ;' Shore Recreation Commission. ~- · ROBEP~S: It was done by the commission? MP .. WELLS: Yes,it was done by them and for them and under their direction. The government provided a grant which was agreed about eighteen months ago of $3,000 for the study to be done. It was done by Professor Howard Dyer. 8489

::ay 21, 1976 Tape u.o . :2873 ~ill.. ROBEP.TS: A supplementary, ::r. Speaker. ~IR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. HR. ROBERTS: I thank the minister. His answer sort of ------ clears that up. But let me ask a furt~er question. Are we -1 to understand that ~•hether or not this stadium goes ahead will depend upon the results of the consideration of the minister l>ho said his officials are u.ow looking at this study which they go.t a few weeks ago, and 1-1hether or not the stadium goes ahead depends upon the results of the consideration by his officials? ~ ':?.. SPEAXE:t: The hon. ~!inister ~viti1out Portfolio.

It depends on the evaluation of the study ~ade between the officials and the Southern Shore Recreation or Stadiun Cc=ittee an:! 1-:hether it turns out that the thing is feasible, se:1sible and economical ,;·ith .!:inances from the Southern s;1ore au.d finances from government. It is too early to say yet. '-/ ;';!R. ROBERTS : I thank the minister. A further supplementary because as the minister said it is too early to say. It is not yet decided whether there will be a stadium built on the Southern Shore this year. MR. HELLS: That is right. It is too early to say.

The commitment was given months and months ago by the then minister. The details have not been worked out. A supplementary. NR. CALLA..": A supplementary, :-:r. Speaker, to the Acting ~linister of Recreatio':l. Did the e~inister say in c1is state~ent just :"lOW ~ that a conmit:nent ~-;as made by the hon. Tom Doyle in his capacity ( \as :!inister of Recreation or just as the H.H.A. for the district? MR. lVELLS: Oh, no, as !1inister of Recreation. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. STRACa~..,: A question for the ~inister of Transportation and --r Communications.

Does the minister's department have any plans to spend any funds on the Labrador Coast or any comnunities on the Labrador Coast either upgrading roads e1ithin t~e co~unities or building new roads within the comrnunites? I particularly refer to com.'"Tlunities in Southern Labrador such as, ~'arys :!arbour ,Cilarlott:etOI,'ll, !llack Tickle? 8490 ·· ~

l1ay -1, 1976 MR. SPEAKER: MR. MORGA.\': Tape no. 2873 Page 2 - 1110' The hen. ¥~nister of Transportation and Communications. Mr. Speaker, yes, the department does have plans to carry out improvements on the coast this Summer. Last year through the efforts of my predecessor, the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Forestry,in his concern for Labrador, there was a special unit purchased, a unit consiting of smaller type equipment that can carry out work in smaller communities where there is now existing practically no roads at all or just roads that you can walk around on and barely that.

So this year we are spending approximately $150,000 and this will be work carried out in the communities of Marys Harbour and Black Tickle. Priority is given to these two communities. And also we will be loaf--ing- and I intend to travel to the area with the hon. gentleman from Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie) and the hon. gentleman ~rom Eagle River ~r. Strachan) - at the conditions of the roads in Charlottetown and also in Fox Harbour, and hopefully we can carry out improvements in these two communities as well.

But the priority right now is to carry out improvements to construct new roads and to reconstruct what roads there are there in these communities in Black Tickle and Marys Harbour. And we will be using the Rural Development barge to transport the special unit equipment into the area as soon as the environmental conditions allow. SO~ RON. MEMBERS: Rear, hear! MR. SPEA.JCER: The hen. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde followed by the hon. member for LaPoile. Mll.. ROY.'E: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Fisheries, Sir.

In view of the fact that I have had a number of representations from a few fishermen in the district inquiring as to whether or not there is any kind of a programme to assist them as a result of loss of gear through recent wind storms, could the minister indicate to the House ~~ether there is a programme in existence at the present time to assist fishermen who have lost boats, motors, and/ or gear as a result of '''ind sto=s? 8~91

\ "'\ no. 23i3 3 - . :!'.. 5?::.-\.KEP.: The hon . Minister of !ishe!:ies • ~!R. '1-1 . CARTER: Jr . Speaker, theTe is no ocgoing pro:p::ei!Dlle of assistance for that k~d of a disaster . guess it is a case where you react to the crisis •.;hen it appears.

I !-lave already announced to the Eouse our plans to hopefully introduce a ~ew programme some time soon , a new gear suosicy progr~e which will have built-in provisions f or the replacement, ~zybe - certainly up to a ce;:::!:ai:l extant - tae ::aplaceD.ent of gear ost. 3··· :\ supple:aentary , :!r . ':!~e ::tinisc~r said tt-..a~ • e is ::o:ISiC:ari.ng a net:- subsidy pro:;ral:ll!le, :naybe a new replacemer.t prcgr.:u=.e t-rill be ~include d .

Could the oinister be a little more clear on t!1at ~articular poil::t, Sir, or could : e indicate whe t!\er or ':lOt there will be a replac~ent clause or aspect to this subsidy progrcumne or whether there will purely be a subsidy programme because the minister did say, maybe? :·!.R. l.j. CA. TER : That might have been a poor c· oice of '"'orcs , .lr . Spe:J.ker . Certainly the progra=e is ver y ;nuc. onder consi ·eratiou. gear suppliers, fishe~en's co~i:tees, che -isheroen ' s r~ion studying certain proposals . 8492

-1 May 21, 1976 Tape 2874 IB-1 _l!R. W. CARTER: The Department of Fisheries have sent out 15,000 letters to the fishermen of the Province outlining certain options that are open to them. I am hoping that within the next month or tvo, certainly within the next two months,to be able to announce a programme~d if the programme that we are thinking about is implemented it will contain provisions for the replacement of gear, worn out gear, gear lost because of storms, ice conditions and what'have you. }!R. F. ROWE : Hr. Speaker, a supplementary. }~.

Speaker, is the minister aware of the fact that in the 1972 Throne Speech the government did indicate that they would be bringing in legislation in that year for a low shared-cost insurance programme for the replacement of lost gear by f"fS1le""rmen in the event of storms and what ?ave .you? Has that legislation been scrapped altogether now in vieP of what the minister has said here this morning? MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, that is what I am in essence saying, that we are now contemplating such a programme. But I should point out, Mr.

Speaker, that we went to Ottawa shortly after my appointment as Minister of Fisheries and talked to the federal authorities with a view to having them participate in some kind of a gear insurance programme. But unfortunately Ottawa did not see fit to accede to our request. So consequently now we are left to find a way ourselves to meet this problem. But certainly in my view,and I think this view is shared by most fishermen,is that Ottawa should have been prepared to assume some of the responsibility for it. _l!R. SPEAKER: I will recognize one further supplementary. MR. F. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary to the Premier. I wonder whether he could indicate ~~y he saw fit to include in the '- ~ budget speech in 1972 the fact that this government would be bringing in legislation for a low shared-cost insurance programme for loss of gear vhen he did not know where the money was coming from and there has been no negotiations with Ottawa. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! ; . 8493

--{ Hay 21, 1976 Tape 2874 MR. SP ~R : I would consider that question is out of order. Number one;it tends to be argumentative and numrer two it refers back to IB-2 a budget address or some document of 1972 which has more historical interest than of - _MR. F. ROWE: Historic? MR. SPEAKER: - Contemporary interest. The hon, member for LaPoile followed by the hon. member for Foio. NR.. NEARY: Hr.

Speaker, a few days ago I asked the Minister of- Fisheries if the minister had any plans to assist financially those fishermen in this Province who fish for crabs,and the minister told me he would probably have an answer in a few days. Is the minister now in a position to make a statement on assistance to the crab fishery in this Province? ~ffi.. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. _}:R. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, the fishermen engaged in the crab fishery were reaching an impasse with the producers, the buyers.

Whereas. the fishermen wanted initially, I think, twenty cents a pound and the most that the suppliers were prepared to offer was fourteen cents a pound, of course,was a spread of six cents. We met with the fishermen and the industry a couple of weeks ago at which time we discussed the problem and urged upon them the importance of getting the industry back because it is a labour intensive industry.

In fact the plant operators or the plants would employ,I believe,in excess of 1,200 people in that industry for a period of about twenty-one weeks plus the 250 fishermen that would be involved in the actual catching of crab. After several meetings - and maybe this question should have been more appropriately asked my colleague, the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations because his department of course played a leading role in the negotiations that happened and in the

~lay 21, 1976 Tape no. 2875 Page 1 - mw HR. W. CA...'tTER: final completion of those negotiations. But to answer the hen. member's question, Mr. Speaker, yes~we did. As a result of the Government of Newfoundland offering the industry a small subsidy, a two cent a pound subsidy, we were able to get the crab fishermen back fishing. In fact ;hey started yesterday morning. This subsidy is being paid pending the outcome of an intensive investigation that is being carried out by the Fishing Industry Advisory Board which, of course, is its main function.

That board has been instructed by me to undertake a thorough investigation into all aspects of the crab industry, the catching end of it, and the processing end of it with a view to finding out,first of all,just exactly hm; much can the industry afford to pay, how much can the buyers afford to pay for crab, for the raw material, one; and secondly, just how much do the fishermen require to pay their expenses and to make a decent livin& in that industry. The Industry Advisory Board has promised to have that report completed by June 10.

They have also been Empowered by me to take the investigation into another province, New Brunswick, where there is quite an extensive crab fishery.to find out, for example, how they can afford to pay more for crab to their fishermen than the industry in Newfoundland is offering crab fishermen in this Province. But to sum up, Mr. Speaker. The crab fishery is back on the rails. The subsidy has been given,two cents a pound pending the outcome of that investigation.

And I want to state here now - and I have already told the industry - that, you know, we have no intention of continuing to pay that subsidy certainly until it can be proven beyond doubt that it is necessary, and even then that will then come under the price support arrangement with the federal goveroment. Last year, as you all know, the federal government did pay a four cent a_pound subsi~y for crab, because it was proven beyond doubt that that subsidy was necessary to bridge the gap 8495

::ay 21 , 1976 Tape rro 287 5 ?ag e - - mv !1r . H. Carter , between what the fishermen needed and what the plants could accord to pay. But our subsidy will be paid until that report has been submitted. If it is shown by our investigation that the industry, the processors,can afford to pay more than what they offered, then they are required under the arrangement to refund to the government - the processors,that is - the subsidy. ~or example, the industry is ~ow paying fifteen cents a pound) that is ''hat ~hey agreed to pay.

The ::"isher.:ten '.-auld agree to so back for eighteen cents a pound on an interL~ basis, ':'e offered a t~>o cent a pound subsidy. ':le have brougnt it up to seventeen cents. Now if it can be show-n by the Industr y Advisory Board that the crab plants can in fact pay seventeen ca~ts or eighteen cents a pound~well then they are r~quired under the arrangement to refund to government the amount of the subsidy. But so far, l·!r. Speaker it has been - and again I give full credit to my colleague and his staff for their work in this matter and happily the industry is back on the rails again. IIR..

S!:-:l!001S: A point of order, Mr . Speaker. . ,., S ?:_~.:~ .. : ' ;>oint of or::!er h.2.s c c~e up . .. .. :!R. S:C·l:.-lONS: :~~r. Speaker ., I am assuming thilt the answer to the question is governed by the same forty-five minute time limit. !-!o~v nuch tir:.e does the :nir:ist:r have left? ~m.. :.;. CARTE.<.: :rr. Speaker, to .that point of order. I am surprised that a member representing a fishing community, a fishing district would try to put a gag on the Minister of Fisheries when he is trying, for .example, to explain- HR. SD1MONS: Trying to get him to say something, 21R. lv.

CARTER: - when he is trying, ~fr. Speaker, to point out the i nportance of the - !!~ . ~.J . CA ... '1TI:R: - a v ery impo rtant s e gment of t ha t industry, the c r aL i::uC.ustry. Ar1d obvi ous l y t~e hon. ::~em ber does no t ;{ant, ::!". Speak.:r, t o hea r what is going on. 849S

!-lay 21, 1976 'Iape no. 2873 Page 3- = .f.R. SL'il'!O~S : On a point of order, }!r . Speaker • SO:-!£ :10:\. Y'"'~!!E?..S : F. ear, bea=! Or~er , please : There is no point of order . !::R. S~ONS: ! = raisin g one , !l:-. Speaker . MR . SPEI>..KER: Ther e might be one co~ng up now, but there was ~o point o: order . S0!1E Eo~; . !~!::RS: Oh, oh! ~!R . S~~S: ~::R . SPEAKr."'R: ~ . sr.-~::s : I hiv e a supJ::leme:1tary point of or der , ~!.r . Speake:-. The hon . gentl~n says there is a point of order . ~o, ~!r. Speaker .

I raised it SOI>lm.·hat facetiously :he f irst tine, but the poin t is that :he ~inister is t atd:1g ac unbea :-able amount of t~e to ans wer a ques:ion. ae is repeatin~ hic.self unnecessa'tily , and we have a lioit ed period during which to ask question~ , Mr . Speaker , and I think it is unfair of the minister, apart' fro~ the !act it is outsid e the rules, for him to be so protracted in his answe:-. And I asl~ that be be directed to be more concise in his answering. ~. L~~RIC~~ : That is en apprehen ded point of or der. HR. NEA..'I\Y: A suppl~~entary question for the minister, Sir . 8497

\1 ~ fay 21, 1976 Tape 2876 IB-1 _MR. SPEAKER: Before hearing the bon. gentleman's supplementary there is a point of order before the Chair, that is with respect to the_ ;ength of answers and there are certain rules on that. The general rule is that the answer is to a large extent governed by the same rules as the questions,and that is that of giving information and not agrument or debate. Naturally if a subject is fairly complex then it is a question of judgement just how much detail a minister feels he should give in order to make his answer complete or intelligible or accurate.

So unless there is an obvious . a~tempt to consume t i me then one would leave it to the discretion of the minister and the general feeling of the House. The hon. member for LaPoile has a supplementary,! believe. HR. NEAP.Y: A supple~entary to the minister, Sir. A year ago the crab market was very depressed. Could the minister indicate to the House now if the market has improved and if the plant processors are marketing directly themselves or are they marketing through the Canadian Salt Fish Corporation and What the conditions are in the market at the present time? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Y:inister of Fisheries.

MR. w. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I should apologize to the House maybe - maybe I should not. I do not think I should have to apologize for maybe taking up two minutes of the ti~ of this House to explain a situqtion that affects 1,500 Newfoundlanders. SOME RON. :!-!EMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. w. CARI'ER: And it is something that is very, very important to them.

If the Minister of Fisheries cannot take two minutes to explain a policy and programme that affects such a very important part of the fishing industry and affects the lives directly of so many Newfoundlanders, well then I think the bon. member spent five hours the other day talking about nothing. MF.. SPEAKER: Order, please! .. 8~98

~ May 21, 1976 Tape 2876 IB-2 MR. H. CARTER: Y.r. Speaker, getting back to the question asked by my friend, the member for LaPoile (!~r. Neary). Yes, the crab industry is at the present t:Une in a very good position. The price is up 1 as indeee is the price of most products of the sea. For example cod blocks are no~ increasec to the mid eighty cents a pounc from a lo•1 sixty. Crab is marketed by the processors them- selves. It is not done through the Salt Fish Corporation. But there is one slight problem, Mr. Speaker, that once the price of crab increases,then it beco!l'es much more attractive to other producers.

MP .• LU.IDRIGAN: How about the flounder? MR. W. CARTER: I will give a report on that no~' in a moment. Once the price is gooc, once the market becomes attractive,then you get a lot of Taiwan crab coming on the market, Japanese crab and this then of course will have the effect of depressing the price being paid for Newfoundland crab. That is why it is a very uncertain market. The price of flounder, it has gone from seventy cents to about a dollar a pound now. The price is good. 'MR. LUNDRIGAN: How about red fish? MR. W. CARTER: Red fish, that is gone from forty to pretty well seventy. Anything else?

The price of lobster is good this year. He have lots of fish,by the l~ay. I should inform the House that the supply this year is good. MR. NEARY: We can see that. "!-T •• W. CARXER: It appears as if we are going to have an excellent Summer, Yr. Speaker. MR. SIMMONS: I realize, Mr. Speaker, the minister would be an authority on the crabs and so on. But could he be directed, ·- lT.. LUNDP.IGJ,N: That is a very smart comment! The constituents would love to hear about that. ¥R. S~ONS: - Y.r. Speaker, to stop abusing the rules of the House. It is not at all funny. I have some questions I would like to ask. 8499

~:ay 21, 19 76 Tepe 2876 IB-3 ~ - SD~-'ONS : The ministe r and his colleagu es a re DOH engaged in ao obvious fil i buster and if the minister told all he knew about the fish ery it would not take so l ong as he i s taki ng ,, .r. Speaker. ~!!'.. W • CARTER: To that point of order. You know, he has ac.cused me of abusing t he rules of the House. ~ell be is pretty well expert, ~!r • Speaker, in t hat sort of thing so I Will not comment any f urt her . ::R. S!'EAKEP..: The point of order now to be disposed of.

Beauchesne P!!.ra&raph 181, subsect i on 1, "Ques t ions must be anS'..rerec brieily and distinctly,and be l!oited to the necessary explanations,though a certain latitude is perr.Utted t o l·:inis ters o~ t!Je Crown whenver they iind it necessary to extend t heir remarks with the ~~ew of c lear!~ expla~,ing the r.atte il'l. question . " So it depends whi ch half of t he sen t ence you ;mt y::mr el!iphasis on . I would not cer~ainly rule t hat the ministe r was abusing the an s ~ering per i od o f t he Quest i on Per iod at that t ime.

I "~.>ill recognize one furth er supplel:l8ntary and then I 1vill go on to the b on. meruber f or Fogo . ~IP. • NE;\l'.Y : I would lil~e to· 8500 - -- ~·-·-·· - ·---

_, ~ay 21, 1976 Tape No. 2877 N¥. - 1 ~Tc. NEARY: ask the minister if he would tell the House- because this is a very important industry to Newfoundland, involving the fishery- would the minister tell the House vrhere the best markets are? Are they in North P.I!lerica, Europe, or w~ere do <Je market the crab, in the United States, the Mainland of Canada or to Europe? ~rn.. SPEAKER: The han. ~linister of Fisheries. }7. Speaker, I think the main market for crab, as indeed for most species of fish caught in Ne\vfoundland, cod blocks and others, is in the States.

My colleague here who visited Finland said that he saw some Newfoundland processed crab in that Country - MP .. H. CARTER: From Bonavista but the American market is the main market. MR. NEARY: Norway. MR. SPEAKER: Before recognizing the hen. member for Fogo I would welcome to the House on behalf of hen. members t~n grade ten and eleven students from J. R. Smallwood Collegiate in Wabush With their teacher Hr. Ern Condon and I know all han. members welcome these young students from Wabush to the Rouse. The han. member for Fogo, CAPTAIN WINSOR: ~!r. Seaker, a question to . the hen.

Minister for Municipal Affairs and Housing. Can the minister inform the House if a decision has been made to complete L~e water and sewer system at Musgrave Harbour? }ffi.. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Hunicipal Affairs and Rousing. ~. PECKFORD: No decision has been made on that yet, Mr. Speaker• Rope~ully within the next week or two we will be in a position to make such a decision and inform the Council accordingly. }ffi.. SPEA!O::R: The hon. member for Burgee- Bay d'Espoir. ~~. SI~OHS: '!r.

Speaker, a question for the Premier , but ·as he is· absent at the moment, perhaps one of the other ministers who were to Europe with him on the trip, the ~nister of Industrial Development, ------- 8501 -

':;J.y ~1. 1971) Tape :~a . 2877 ~~. SIM:!ONS: Fisheries, or Forestry and Agriculture would answer the question. What I am wondering, ~!r. Speaker, is when vre can expect or when the House can expect to get some report --- on the trip to Europe taken by the Premier and several -· ministers back,I believe,in late January. ~. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Industrial Development. ~!R. LIDIDR.IGA~!: Soon, '!r. Speaker. A supplementar;. 'T.. SI~"'O'IS: !~r. Speaker, can the ':linister, I !mow he wants to be coy, but can the ~inister indicate how soon.

It is an important issue 2nd it has been four months now, perhaps <7e could expect an answer in the next <veek. or so, can the minister indicate? ::r .. LL':TDP.IGAN: Very soon, ··~r. Speaker. ~'R. SI:i'!O~lS: !Jc not !:Je so snart 'Jolm' boy, It does not become you. It does not becone you at all . :!!' .• SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! ~"'R. CA."<NING : :-tr. Speaker, I lvoulC. like to direct a question to the !finister of Finance. Can the ~!inister of Finance L'lform the P.ouse when he can__:;u;>ply the ans•4ers to question 756 an.:. 7'5.7 on the! 8rder :"'.:1ner of ..... or..day, .. !ay 1'1t:"!. '1R.

SPEA.'ffiR: The hen. ~inister of Finance. :m.. DOODY: There are a number of questions outstanding which del:Jartt':lent officials are uorking on. I cannot ~ive you t~1e exact date but as soon as they are available I will certainly get th~ for you, Sir. HR.. SPEAKER: The hen. member for Bellevue. Does the hon. gentleman have a supplementary. ~!R. CA.'P.UNG: The same question to another minister. ~!R. SPEA.'ZER: lvell then I should recognize the hon. member for Bellevue. 8502

'1~y 21, 1976 Tape No. 2877 Nl1 - 3 }~ . CAL1J : ~r. Speaker, this question is for the Acting '!inister of Recreation.

In view of the fact that the grants ,.--\ made available to nine ~reas to build stadia_ar~- inadeQuate to do the job ~nd therefore necessitates the raising of funds from outside sources and so on~d in view of the fact that ERGO at Long Harbour have committed ~n ~ddi~ional S25,000 to the stadium at Whitbourne provided that there is no stadium going in Placentia this year, could the minister indicate to the House whether or not a commitment has or will be made to erect a stadium in the Placentia area this year? l1R. SPEAKBP.: The hen. ~finis ter Without 'Portfo lie. MR. HELL!'. : No comnitment has been made , ~!=.

Speaker. If I may,while I ~~ on my feet, could I clarify an answer I made to an earlier question I think by the member on the Southern Shore stadium. The question was the feasibility study. ! said $3,000. _It _is quite correct but the $3,000 covers more than the Professor Dyer report, Tb~ Professor Dyer report cost $1,000, and $1,000 was spent on a trip by member~- of the Recreation Commission to look at other stadia. - . 'lR. ROBERTS: Including Mr. Charlie Power. :'1R. HELLS : I do not think so. No. And the remaining money is going to be spent on a field survey and site collection.

So that is where the total $3,000 is going. !<!~<.. SPEAKER: Order, please! The thirty minutes has now transpired. 8503 -

:tay 21' 1976 7ape no. 28 78 Page 1 - rnv ~1R. SPEAKER: Hotion (9). On ::aotion o·f t he non. !1inist:er of ealth, a bill, ".1.n ct Further To Amer-.d The Newfoundland .!edical Care Insurance Act," read a first time, ordered read a second til!le on tomorrow. (:Sill No. 58). On motion of the hen. ~~nister of Municipal Affairs, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Urban And Rural Planning Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorro~~. (Bill No. 60). On motion of the hen.

Hinister of Justice, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Public Utilities Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrmv. (Bill No. 63). On :notion of the bon. 1-!inister of Justice, a !Jill, \ "A.-:~ Act Respecting The Retirement Of ~1agis t rac2s," read a ordered read a second time on tomorrm-1, (Bill No~.

On notion of the hen. ~ini ster of Forestry ~~~~ Agriculture, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Liv erst:oc!r. (Conw.""U!rlt7 Sales) ~· I \ Act," read a first time til!le, ordered read a second time on tomorrm;r. (Bill No.6l) On motion of the hen. }linister of Finance, a bill, "An Act To Ratify, Confirm And Adopt An Agreement IA:ade Between The Government And The Government Of Canada Respecting Price And Income Controls," read a fir ·st time, ordered read a second time on 'tO!!'tO !'TOT >T • (Bill No. 59). :r!' .. Sl'EA.~ll.: Order (3) - Committee of Hays and :~eans. The motion is that I noT,7 leave the Chair.

Is the House readv for the question? CO!'l!ITTEE O'F HAYS ,\liD ~!L\YS: !:I:! •• SPEAR2:<1.: The hor-L. :Ja::J.ber for ~.8-ie 'tJerte - ~laite Bay. :1P.. il.DEOUT: ~ir.

Speaker, I certainly would like to have a fe~ ~ords to say on this amendment to the 3udget Speech before we fiuish with it. ':he amendment, as I understand it, regrets the failure of this government to disclose fully the fina.-:~cial situation of this Province. :Tmo7 over the past few days much that needs to be said on this particular a~end~ent has probably ~een said. :~ere are a couple wf "-rcas t:Lat I ~waul:. li:.;:.e to deal o;...;ith. ?~ople, 3i=, :·~LI.O~ ·: ~::::! r~cor~ of the <;ove=ent, and :~e can :Oeat our lips away day after clay :1ere t2.l :~ia,3 a~out it, Jut J.r.. wy :uind :h::=rc are t~:c ::hir:.gs t !1at re.2lly r;ct 850't

V.ay 21, 1976 TepE no. 2873 Page 2 - Jm·7 Mr. Rideout. the adrenalin of the people of tnis Province flm,Ting; one, I thi11.k, is the thing we talked about last night, the Lower Churchill, and I do not want to refer to it too much because I understand from our rules that you cannot go back to it if it has already been debated. But, Sir, that I am sure has every man and woman in Newfoundland today standing with the government in the hope that we can get something out of Quebec for the benefit of this Province. SO~U: He>:-;. !~~:S:!::RS: Hear , hear! ~~.

RIDEOL~: The other thing is that the expectations of our people have on a number of occasions been raised and reised deliberately,anc that, Sir, also causes our people to be upset. Ue hate to have the plug pulled on us and in many cases that is what has been happening. So that is history. That is history. Now, Sir, the day of reckoning will come and we will deal with it then. But I w-ant to talk about other failure for a few minutes this morning, and it is a failure of this government and a feilure of past goverments.

So there are a few things I want to say, and I will let the chips fall where they may, whether it be in the lap of this government or in the lap of previous governments. And I want to talk specifically about the fishery on the Baie Verte Peninsula. Now, Sir, the misconception is lasting among too many people in this Province that the Baie Verte Peninsula is totally a mining operation. }!R, RO\\TE: Hr. Speaker, on a point of order. I am sitting right in front of the hon. member who is now speaking and I cannot hear what he is saying. There is an awful noise in the corridors of the House, and in the House.

I wonder if the Speaker could direct the Sergeant-at-Arms to cut dow~ the noise. HR. ROBERTS: It is certainly not any lack of diction or enunciation on your colleague's part. 8505

:!aY 21, 1976 Tape no. 2373 3 - -:J.W ~lR. SPE..AY-ER (Dr. Collins): The han. member, of course, :~s the right to be heard in silence, and I would ask the Sergeant-at-Arms to see that silence is properly kept in the corridors. SOME HON. lffifBERS : Hear , hear! liR.. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was attempting to say, Sir, tP4t too ma~y people in too many places,in too many high places in this Province are living under the misconception that the oaie Verte Peninsula is totally dependent on the mining in~ustry.

That, Sir, has i1acl. an adverse affect on the many huud.reds of fisi1er:J.en \.;ho are still t!)·ing to scratch a living from the fishery on the 3aie Verte Peninsula. The mining on the !laie \'erte Peninsula is indeed very import&~t. It is the ~est single important component of the economy of the Baie Verte Peninsula. Of that, Sir, there is no doubt. But it is nat the only component of the economy of the Baie Verte Peninsula. The fishery has been•important in the past. I submit, and the fisher.nen of the Baie Verte Peninsula submit, that it can be an important component in the future.

What we are concerned about, Sir, is the misconception, the false conception by people in government and in other organizations,that there C.oes :J.o~ eAist oc. the 3aie .,.\.,.c;:r::a Pcr~i:1sula ~ fisL.ery , that there does not exist on the Baie Verte Peninsula a fishery that has any future. ~·Jell, Sir, r..othing could be further fror:t the truth. The Eaie Verte Peninsula over the_ past number of years, up until the coming of the mining industry ten or twelve years ago, had a very viable and vibrant fishing industry.

If we are to provide jobs for all of our people in that particular part of the Province,then I submit that -;ve have to go back, and we have to go back in a planned detailed approach to the development of our primary industry on the 3a.ia ,.lerte Peninsula and one of the most single important primary at: tb.is present soment has to be the fishe.ry1 Sir. 8506

May 21' 1 ~76 <ape no. 2e7e Pase t. - ilT•= ~:r. Rideo ut . 5efore the co'-in& of P~ble~ ~~nes and Advocate :~~es t'he g~ezte:r p~:: o: the econo:::-y o!" the :Saie Verte !'en!.nsula depended O:'! the !'ishery. ibt since the:~, Sir, there has been a sradual decline in all the communities .- and there are twenty-two cosmunities on the Peninsula - :here has been a gradual decline, but =ny people, sot~e ~en still ciepend on the !"isbery. It is a SQall perc~tege,I gran: you. A large number are still depending o= the fishery for a livelihood. And it is here that many problems are cu~ently c>:istin:; .

Tbe decline oue i:o the mining industry has l:n:ought about a oe ... ·, but a:~ u."l.happy ;>!lase in the fishing indust:::y of that pa=ticula:- area. \iha: has happened is that :he !"isbe~e= e=e beco=in~ i~secure. l do no: have to :e!: the !:inister of Fisheries . He attended - anc 1 ..,as very grateful to see him there - he attended a fishe ries co~erence in Baie Verte sponsorec by the Baie Verte Peninsula Development Association abol!t a oooth ago , a very good co~erence. 8507

:'ay 21, 1976 Tape 2879 IB-1 ~T • PJDEOt'T: It talked about the problems that faced the fishermen of that particular area. But the fishermen, Sir, are very insecure. Just to give you a couple of examples: Hhen I was first elected as the member for that district I could not believe when it was brought to my attention that the vibrant fishing community of Nippers Harbour in Green Bay on the Baie 1!erte Peninsula has a total lack of fishing facilities. There is nothing there . There was a wharf built there last year,a couple of years ago~but there is no community stage.

Part of th~t wharf is no~• floating around the harbour. The ~mole community is dependent on the fishery. If there is one fishing community on the Baie ~erte Peninsula it is Nippers Harbour. That is all they have ever done and that is all they are doing today. Yet we have communities on the Baie Verte Peninsula where we have less than four and in some cases only two and three per cent of the people dependent on the fishery that have beautiful community stages. Now, Sir, that is where the problem is.

That is where the failure has been for the fishermen on the Baie Verte Peninsula is the failure of proper government planning, Not onl y this govern~nt. I said that in the introduction and I want to say it again. But this government has now been in office for fj,e years and they certainly have to bear part of the blame and bear their share of the responsibility. There has been a lack of proper planning on the Baie 1!erte Peninsula to ensure that the fishery there stays alive , and it must stay alive and we must encourage more people to go back to it.

Advocate "ines and Rambler ~' ines. cannot be expected to employ everybody on the Baie Verte Peninsula. The fishery can offer a good life to the people in that area who want to partake of it and we must provide every opportunity for them. So the government has to take a good, solid, hard look at the fisher y in that area and lve have to do it putting i n t he back of our minds that there is a mining econo~y there. You cannot look at the fishery of the Baie "erte Peninsula in 850S

- - ·--- -· -- ----- --------- }~y 21, 1976 Tape 2879 IB-2 ?T • RIDEOUT : the proper prospective if you are going to let your mind be clouded by the fact that two ~ines operate on tP~t peninsula. That is where the problem has been for the past ten or a dozen years and that is ~~ere the problem is today. No~ I suggested that there ~as a lot of evidence of little planning,and a complete lack of it in some cases in many communities around the Peninsula. The facilities of that area are sadly lacking, Sir.

There is an inadequate supply of co~ity stages in a num~er of communities,and as I suggested there are a couple of communities that have them that should never in God's name, should never have had the~ in the first place. They are a nice, beautiful edifice. They are a nice building to look upon but they are of absolutely no benefit to anybody. That certainly has to be a lack of planning and a failure to plan properly on someone's part. So it is high time therefore that the government set about to establish a long range plan for fisheries development on that Peninsula.

It is high time that we tried to set forth our goals of whether or not we are committed to maintaining a fishing industry on the Baie Verte Peninsula. I believe we have to be. We will have to start drafting policy and putting in place policy that will place the fishery in a very important position ~ith respect to the future development of the Baie Verte Peninsula. The ~ining, Sir, is a nonrenewable resource. Some day it will be over and done with. Rambler }'ines will close and Advocate !'ines will close and .we could be left, you know, '~ith the ghost town situations on- our hands. That ~~11 not remain forever.

But with proper planning and proper policy the fishery could be vital and indeed is vital at this moment to a number of people outside the metropolitan area,for want of a better word, of Baie Verte itself, 'ihen you get out into the smaller c~.unities from 1~ing 's Bight to LaScie and up around loiestport in the other end of the district. 8509

Yay 21, 1976 Tape 2 8 7~ IE-3 }'R. RIDE OUT : Now in order to put the fishery of the Baie Verte Peninsula in prospective,! suggested already that ~~e have to look at it and forget about the mining. But we also have to begin work immediately to upgr~de the present fish holding facilities that exist there and to provide new facilities in places where they do not exist. That is not going to be a six month plan or a one year plan. It has to be a long range plan. It has to be a plan that when it is completed in five or ten years will have provided the foundation for a vital, viable industry on that Peninsula.

I have alreacl .y !l!entioned the case of ~lip~ers Harbour. One other community that depends almost totally and solely on the fishery is Wild 'cove. They still have in 1976 to crawl cut around the sides of the cliff to get out to their longliners that are moored off to the government wharf out further around the cove. There is no fish holding facility there whatsoever. Yet there ... was ~half million pounds of fish landed in that community alone last year~_A_ half million pounds, Sir, is~to put it mildly,a lot of fish. 1"R. S¥.ALU1f'OD: 't-:'here does it go? ~'R .

RIDE0l1'l': ~ost of it, about half of itl went to the plant in LaScie. But there is no facility there to land it. They have to use the same old black stage that was used by their fathers and their forefathers years ago. Now how can tve produce a ouality product, Sir, under those conditions? We hear people talking about the fishery today and they say we must produce a quality product. And I agree we must produce a quality product. But if we are going to produce it, then we have to have the proper facility to handle it.

The fishermen can bring it in but if it is going to be taken by the pitchfork and thrown into a place to7here there is inadequate holding facilities in terms of ice 1 or into facilities that are far fro~ sanitary, then when it gets to the plant it is going to be in very poor shape and you therefore 8510

May 21, 1976 Tape 2879 IB-4 'MJ'.. P.IDEOUT : cannot maintain the quality of the product under conditions like that. So we have to have a long range plan to upgrace the present fishing facilities in the area and to provide new ones in at least two places where they currently do not exist, Nippers Harbour and Wild "cove. J.lR. S'1ALLWOOD: v7hat is their source of fishing there? MR. RIDEOUT: They catch turbot and haddock and flounder and, you know,whatever they can get their hands on. diversified. Y.P.. S~WOOD : And lobster? '!'hey are pretty }T_.

P.!DEOJJ'!': Lobster not so_ much in the Baie Verte Peninsula part of the district but in Wild Cove and Seal Cove there is some lobster in that area but it is not that great down that way . Salmon, whatever they can get. So also, Sir, I maintai~ there must be a programme introduced which will provide ice making machines in areas where ice can become more accessible to the fishermen. Currently we have to truck ice from LaScie, thirty-five miles up the LaScie highway and another thirty-five miles if you want to get it into Westport.

No~7 that truck load of ice, Sir, is probably half melted by the time it gets there and then by the time it gets back with the fish packed in it you know what h as happened. }~ain 1 how can you maintain a quality product under those conditions? Provisions have to be made to have fish gutted and cleaned at the point of landing. Again this relates to the quality of the prodt!ct. Now I have alrea~y tried to emphasize the fact that the fishing industr y in our particular area has suffered greatly because of the emphasis placed on mining over the past few years. That is a fact .

Now that is not to be critical of the mining. We are very pleased to have the~ and we want to keep them there. But what I am saying is that we must diversify the job opportunities of that particular area of the Province. We must not let an old industry 8511

Y.ay 2! , 1976 !'a pe 287') IB-5 ~!R. RIDEOUT: go do~m the drain and that is what has been happening over the past ten or twelve years. Everybody wanted to get into the mines. The mines cannot handle everybody and neither should everybody want to get into it. There is a good life left for o~ people, our young people in the fishery. But we have to stop this silly nonsenee,and I have probably been as guilty of it as anybody having been a teacher, we have to stop t~s silly ncnsense of saying that unless you have a university degree you are nothing.

Not every man or woman in this Province is cut out for that, Sir, and the sooner we realize it the better. IR. ROBERTS: ~rn.. PIDEC'!U'!': That is right, Not every man and woman is going to spend four or five years in university. Not every man or woman is going to spend one or two years in the vocational schools. }~ . NOLAN: Not every person should. .. ~1R. RlDEOUT: And not every person should. That was about to,be my next statement.

So we must encourage the people, our people, our young people, to go where ,they want to go and in order to do that we liiUSt provide them with the basic necessities to make a living. One of these basic necessities that can be develop _erl and caii be developed mueh greater than it has been over the past ten or twelve years, Sir, on the Baie Verte Peninsul.a,is the fishing industry. We have sadly failed 8512 - -· . .........__ - · - - - ---

May 21, 1976 Tape No. 288(1 MP .. RIDEOUT: to do anythin8 about the - or to do very much about the fishing industry on the Baie Verte Peninsula over the past ten or twelve years because of our over emphasizing the mining industry. MR . S:'IALl..i·'OOOD: Would the hoP.. gentleman permit a question? MR. RIDEOUT: Yes, Sir. ~!R. 5}1'_-U,L\o:OOD: Row far north does his constituency extend? Does it go so far in Hhite Bay as to include the ¥.ooney -~,which has just been acquirecl,anc if so what effect will that have in the hon. gentleman's opinion on employment and the development of his constituency? '"!F..

RIDEOUT: That, Sir, I hope will have a great effect on the l\orthern part of ny district. For your information ,rc:,· district starts at ~fiddle Arm in Green Bay and it goes right around the Baie Verte Peninsula, up to Westport and then I shoot right across \;bite Bay and I pick up at Great Harbour Deep. }ffi.. ~.ALLHOOD: It is two districts. MR. RIDEOUT : It is two district. Right. This great Redistribution Bill that we had last year took out Hampden, Jackson's Arm and so on.

It was only 2. couple of hours a'~ay from the Baie Verte Peninsula and sent me shooting nine hours dm,'Il the Northern Peninsula P:ighway to get to Roddickton and Englee. }!R. ~~LWOOD: Put it in with Deer Lake. MR. RIDEOUT: That is right, put it in 'dth Deer Lake. But anyway, be that as it may,I go across to Harbour Deep and then I go from Harbour Deep to Englee and Roddickton and Bide Arm, and that is the end of it. JolR. SMALLWOOD: Bide Arm? MR. RIDEOU'!: Bide Arm, yes. MR. Slt~LWOOD: Included'! l1R. RIDEOl.IT: Yes, Sir, and the Reverend Reid. !1R. S!-'ALUJOOD: The Cardinal Archbishop is a constituent? 1-!R.

RIDEOUT: I have said enou£h. 8513

~ ·1 ay 21, 1976 Tape "o. 2380 ~8.. RIDEOUT : But the Mooney Elock,I would hope,has great implications for the Harbour Deep area particularly of that district. You know the people of Harbour Deep have been looking for a road connection for the past number of years. I would hope that the Mooney Block will be the beginning of that dream. Harbour Deep is a community of 400 people who do not want to leave that area and should not leave.

They are a viciously independent people, 400 of them,and I suent a 1ceek down there in January and I believe there •~as one welfare case in January in 400 people 1;ho depend solely on the fishery as their !!leans of making a .living. This c!ooney Block will provide extra job opportunities for them,I hope~when it is developed and also of course we will have to build access forest roads into that particular area and from there I would hope it would not • be too difficult to get the last few miles extended out into , Harbour Deep.

Now I know that will not happen tomorrm-1 morning but I hope it will come about within the next few years because of the development of that Mooney Block of timber. But to get back to the Baie Verte Peninsula and the fishery. T'here are a nunber of things ~~ e have to ~ o if l·7e are to maintain a viable fishing incustry in that particular area and not all of them are the responsibility of the provincial goverr.ment. I ,.;ant to say that rig'!-!t from the beginning. Some of them are the res~onsibility of the federal government. But they have been dragging their feet as well.

There has to be an assistance programme for fishermen based on the length of the season, and the efforts exp;nded by the fishermen to pursue the fish. And we have to have the establishment of a gear bank w·here fishermen can lease with the option to purchase the !!ear th<lt they need. Now I 1vas very pleased with the minister's announcement 851~

}!ay 21, 1976 Tape No. 2880 N!1 - 3 !1R. P.IDECl'OT: a ~vhile ago that they were intending to lease long- liners to fishermen. That is a good thing, Sir, but the long­ liner is useless unless you have something to use with it. And in order to properly equip a longliner today, I understand from my fishermen friends, there has to be a great deal of capital invested. Nets are not cheap to buy and you have to have many, many hundreds of them and all kinds of them if you are to pursue the fishery. Because the day is gone in this Province when we can pursue the cod fishery only.

Our fishermen have to be able to catch all the species available to them if they are to make a living from the fishery. You cannot depend on the cod trap anymore and you cannot depend on the cod solely anymore. T:ley ha>e to be !l'obile and t!1ey have to be prepared to catch whatever is in the water that can be sold~and that of course indicates or brings about the problem with having various kinds of catching capacity and different kinds of expensive gear and equipment.

While I ~- on this leasing the longliner business, a little disappointed really by some fishermen having told me, I do not know - Have any of them been leas-ed yet_ t~ the fishermen, does the l"...inister nind my asking7 }ffi.. T-~. CA?.'!'EP. : They ,-7111 be in a fe,., days time. ~ •. RIDEOLry: I understand fro~ some fishermen that they are pretty disappointed over the high rental rate, the high lease rate that apparently is to be charged for those longliners.

I have heard a figure of $4,000 mentioned which in terms of the capital investment in the boat is not great, but if you are going to pay $4,000 this year and $4,000 next year and $4,000 the year after, 'dth no thought of ever mming it~ now I do not know if that is the way it will work o11t in the end or not but these are some of the objections I have heard- with no thought of ever owning that particular boat, you l::no"' it is like renting an apartment all your 8515

~, --· 1?76 7ape ~To. 1-'P.. RIDEO'JT: life and never ending up with a home. That reay be something that can be looked at and ~;or ked at in the futu:re. But ~e have to qav~ gear banks to~, Sir, strategically located around this Province if ve are to build up the fishing industry.

So I try to hit on some of the special and the serious problems that exist with regard to the fishery in ay particular district and if I can e~hasize one thing,and I >;ant to say it again,is that 1<e have to look at the fishery, at the 3aie 'lerte Peninsula, that is r.reen Bay and 'Thite Bay areas, ~;ith mL'ling the least thing in our lrind because that is ~;hat has retarded the fishery growth in our area, or the fishing industry in our area for the past ten or t~;elve years. 11e have to zet that out of the way and look and see and if we really believe there is a viable fishing industry there, and I believe it is, and the fish • plant is in LaScie and,you know,the whole foundation is there, it is just a matter of building on it and building on it properly, If we really believe that then we should start to work immediately to set up a long range plan for t~e development of the fishery of the Baie 'tierte Peninsula.

This government, as I have suggested, has been in office for five years nm;, Sir, and we have to soon see some evidence of "hat they are going to do to mal~e the fish:!.ng on the llaie Verte Peninsula a viable part of the economy of that area. MR. W. CARTER: Four years. MR. RIDEOUT: Going on five, is that right? There is a new Xinister of Fisheries, I am looking forward to him for the leadership that this will require. I think he is capable of providing it, Sir, to be quite honest. I was impressed with him when he '"as at the Fisheries Conference in Baie Verte.

I think he is quite capable of providing that, but t'J.e ti!:le has nm• come for us to sit dmm seriously and to decide once and for all v:hether or not '"e vlant a fishing industry in the llaie Verte area or '"hether ~-- 8 516-

Y.ay 21, 1976 Tape No. 2880 :-!R. RIDEOlJT: we are just going to say, "Let it go mining," and =~~= is all. I ~o not want to see ~;at happen . I do not think it. should happen . I do not think the minister will allow it to happen. ! am hopeful that he will not and N:-: - 5 ! woul~ hope that when he is drawing up fishery policy relatin& to the whole Province he will not forget the Baie Verte ?eninsula and chat he might take some of the comments that I made into consi~eration. Thank you. so:a: HO~. ND!:BERS: Hear ! near! XR. SPEAKE? (DR. C~LL!NS): Is the House ready for the question?

The question before the House is the amendment and I will read the amendment, to amend the motion by stri~.inr out all the ..,ore!$ after ''that" and subs:ituticg tilerefore the follo~>ing. "This Bouse regrets the failure of the government to disclo se completely and fully the presen t finan cial situa t ion of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador and the govertll!tent ther eof." Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motio!l? Those in favour please say "aye", those against the motion please say "=y". In r::y opinion the nays have it. Call in the members. 8517 -

·ray ::.1, 1976 T2.pe 2881 ?age ~1R. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): Order, please! The motion before the House is to amend the motion by striking out all the words after "that" and substituting therefore the following, "This Rouse regrets the failure of the government to disclose completely and fully the present financial situation of the Province of ~Te•,foundland and Labrador and the government thereof~' Those in favour of the motion please rise: The hen. Leader of the Opposition, ~~r. ITodder, ~1r.Strachan, ~:r. Cannning, ~rr. !{owe, 7·1r. SimJ!lons, ~r. ~{b.ite, '!•!r. \·:insor, ~r. Lush, ~'!r. Rideout, ~!r.

Nolan, :t-!r. ~cNeil, ~!r. :-<eery. Those against the action please rise: The hen. Pre!!lier, the ho;J.. ~1inister of :',!unicipal Affairs and Housing, the hen. ~linister of Tourism, the hon. ~!inister cf ~~npower and Industrial Relations, the hen. ~!inister of Health, • the hon. !1inister of Social Services, the hen. Minister of Justice, the hen. Hinister of }fines and Energy, the hon. :tr. ~·Tells, the hon. ~nister of Finance, the hon. Minister of Industrial and Rural Development, the hen. Minister of Fisheries, the hen. Minister of Public l-iorks and Services, the hen.

Hinister of Forestry and Agriculture, '\Ir. You."'lg, :~r. Goudie> ~!r. ~T. ilindsor, ~1r. Dinn, :·Ir. P::.tterso_n, l·!r. J. Carter, !1r. lvoodrow, Dr. Winsor, ~-r. Harshall, :he hon. ~!r. Smallwood - SO!IE HON. V.~~ERS : :iear, hear~ - :t-!r. Callan, ~.r. R.. Moores. S0ME RON. Mni:BERS : -Hear , hear! MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): I declare the motion lost. The motion before the House is that I do now leave the Is the Rouse ready for the question? The hen. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. ~· lr . S~eaker, ':7e are cc\ ..

T on the ~irt :.lotion that the Speaker do no~r leave the Chair and, therefore, ":Ve 2.re on the ~ai~ subst~nee of the Budget Speech. I io ~o~ intend to be very lor.;, Sir . 85·18.

May 21, 1976 Tape no. 2881 Page 2 - mw ~1r. Rov:re. Sir, if one takes a serious, an analytical look at the v.arious budget speeches that have been presented since 1972 - and there have been six budget speeches, I believe, including the a~ergency budge~ - one ca~ easily see, Sir, that this a~inistration,and the various finance m~isters in particular,have been the authors of their oun political destruction and an..~ihilation and possibly misfortune, misfortune indeed ~hen hon. members opposite might have been able to do so~ething about it.

But, Sir, if one analyses e'\ren just the highlights alone of the various budget speeches since 1972,you can see why this Province is in the precarious positio:J. that it is in today. And you can see that ~i1e various ::.:inisters of :-inc;.r:c.e have been tfi~ aut i.1.ors cf the destructio:l o~ this particular administration. Because, Sir, there is no consistency wi1atsoever, no consistent progressive, sound philosophy or policy with respect to just the highlights of these various Throne .Speeches. Certain things have been consistent, and I ~~11 mention those.

But generally speaking, Sir, it is quite obvious that there is no sound philosophy behind the fiscal philosophy of this administration. As a matter of fact, Sir, if one analyses just the highlights alone of the six budget speeches it looks like - the best adjectives I can use for it - fiscal convolutions or financial fits or fiscal'conv~lsions. I do not know how to describe it because there is no consistency wnatsoever. Sir, I would even go so far as to say that - and this is parliamentary, it has been used by Mr.

Speaker himself on a number of occasions without interference £rom the Chair - the content of the various Throne Speeches have been nothing but a catalogue of financial or fiscal deception on the part of this administration, not necessarily deliberately, Sir, but there is no doubt about the fact that it represents the best catalogue of fiscal and financial deception by any administration since Confederation. Sir, when one reads the various speeches,and particularly this year's Budget Sp.eech, it almost can be entitled, An Encylo~=d1a Of What Kot To Do For All Finance Ministers Throughout Ihis Nation . 8519

;ape :10 . 2381 3 - ~'.~ ~lr. Rowe. Now, Sir, I was interested in the collllllents made by the member for Twillingate (Hr. Smallwood) who I listened to with great interest and great respect. HR. J. CAR'rER.! Who is this? ~!F.. ROWE: The member for Twillingate. ~iR. CROSBIE: Do you remember "last night? I remember last night. Let us get one thing quite clear, ~~. Speaker. I have a great deal of respect for the hen. member for Twillingate (}lr. Smallwood). I aiil proud of the accomplishments of the Liberal administration under his a~nistration.

I have every respect for the hen. member, but I do not necessarily agree with the actions of the member for Twillingate (:!r. Swallwood) in recent years. But let it be quite clearly stated that I have. every respect for his past actions and the actions of the administration and I am proud to have been a supporter of that administration. SOME HOli. MEHBERS: Hear, hear! !iR. ROWE: And I am not the least bit ashamed, and I sit here in this House, and listen very intently to what 8520

l'ay 21, 1976 Tape 2882 IB-1 l'P.. RO>'E: the hon. member has to say with respect to the financial position of this Province should be listened to very clearly by every hon. me~her of this Rouse. It is not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing, }!r. Speaker. It is a matter of listening, analysing, synthesizing and coming up with your o~m particular stance or your own particular opinions. You do not have to disagree Wholly with a person or agree ~~olly with a person on either side of this House. And for the bon. ~inister of Justice to suggest whether you agree or disagree is absolute nonsense.

You listen to hon. members, you analyse what they have to say and you de'ITelop your own thoughts and you try to make your o~'I1 contribution to this House. But the hon. me~her for ~·illingate (~r. Smallwood) has painted a very dark picture as far as the financial positio~ of this Province is concerned. And if I misrepresent what the bon. member had to say I would appreciate his intervention in straightening me out. But one thing that I heard from the bon. mernber-and it was a courageous call on his part because under the member's administration this Province advanced and progressed greatly.

Now it is not all to the credit of the hon. member--for Twillingate (~lr. S'"-Sllwood). The hen. member for T"<.•illingate (}:r. Srnalh10od) had some good colleagues and had a good administration, very good colleagues and a very good administration over these years. And we progressed steac' .ily. 1 and although we were going in debt we had something to show for it and the rate of our ~ebt accumulation was not near as great as it has been under this present administration. But the member did -courageously call for something that we would never have expected to come from the lips of the member for Twillingate (Yu .

Smallwood): Hold her back, cut back if necessary on the provision of certain public services 1however badly needed,because of the financial situation of this Province; bole' her do~~. And, Sir, he saicl in this House, the hon. mem"ber for T~'illingate 01r. Smallwood), that the people will respond, that the people if they are given a satisfactory explanation will responc and support the government in 8521

~ 'a y 21 , 1 975 Tape 2882 IB - 2 ~'P .• RI'JHE: any fiscal cutbacks with respect to the provision of public services if th~y are given a clear indication and proof of the very hazardous and precarious fiscal position of this Province under this present P.C. administration. Now, Sir, maybe that is so. }'aybe the people will respond. But, Sir, I do not think that this administration, the P.C. administration, is going to call on the people of this Province to accept further cutbacks. We have had our cutbacks. ~·Te are in a period of restraint, retrenchment. There is no rlouht about that.

There will be very little in the '<tay of new water and sewer projects started this year, if any. The most that we can expect is a continuation of so!!le of the projects that ~-1ere started last year or the year before. But, Sir, that is not the point that I am trying to make. Even with the restraint that we have now I do not think that this administration is prepared to put their case before the Ne~~oundland people and expect them to respona with respect to the kind of drastic cutbacks called for by the member for Twillingate (¥.r. Smallwood).

Sir, I will give you my personal and my considered opinion as to why they ~·Till not. Sir, the ''inister of "ines and Energy has sotten up on anumber of occasions and given this assembly every impression that they have had the cookie when the next election rolls around, had the cookie znd it is not a ~inese cookie. Ml'. CMSBIE: .J'F.. P.OWE: A fortune cookie. And it is not a fortune cookie • Sir, in some of his more desperate moments the han. Minister of Mines and Energy says, "Look! Stop the political talk over there on the other side, boys. Do not be so foolish.

You will have her in three or four years time after the next election. You do not have to carry on a campaign here in the House of Asse!"bly. It is all yours in three or four years ti~re." MR. ROBERTS: Sure he is going to be out of it in six months. 8522

May 21, 1976 Tape 2882 IB-3 ~·R. FQWE: Now, Sir, here is '~<>hat I thin k is happening: I think that this administration realizes that they have not got a ghost of a chance of continuing on in the administration of this Province following the next election whenever it is going to be called. ~'1'. . P.O!l1:RIS : That is why the minister is going to go run in St. 1!R. ROI-YE: It has been confinned by the Y.inister of Hines and Energy and probably this is why we understand that the minister is running in St. John's West for the federal by-election.

But, Sir, this administration know full well that they will be repudiated at the polls in the next election. I think that they are setting out on a plot to go ahead and borrow as much as they possibly can,no matter he•' low our credit rating drops, borrow, berra•'• borrow, borrow. Not what they accused the Leader of the Opposition. The Leader of the Opposition says - Household Finance? MP.. ROBEPTS: Borre~! ••ha t we safely can. }~ .. RO~ : Never borrow needlessly but borrow - MP .• ROBERTS: No, what I said was borrow what we safely can. !'R.

Rm~ : Borrow in a very responsible manner and as much as you can responsibly. · But this administration, Sir, is going to keep borrowing and borrowin~ and borrowing. It will continue to increase taxes upon taxes upon taxes and it will not really have a substantial, a really ,_ substantial restraint programme.

I think the plot is this, that knowing that they are going to be sitting on this side of the House, what remains of hon. members opposite . after the next election, they are going to leave the next administration that takes over with such a terrible mess that it would look Himalayan in comparison to the mess that they supposedly inherited. I think, Sir, this is what they are up to. They see the hand writing on the wall and they do not care what kind of a mess they leave behind. As a matter of fact sometimes I wonder if they think the bigger the mess they leave behind the better, 8523

Yay :!1 , 1 ~7~ '!'ape 2882 !B-4 YR. P.OHI:: because it will put the neXt administration in so much difficulty that they '!!laY be flicked out within one term. That is their only politic;l.l salvation that I can see and I am looking at this very politically because I think the administration opposite is playing the financial game in this Province very politically.

Sir, the }~:inister of Finance made the statement - he got very emotional, Sir, as a matter of fact the l'inister of Fi.:;lance had to sit down with a tremoring voice after speaking for about only ten or fifteen minutes. ~.nd he said to Your Honour, "Sir, I get so excited, I get so emotional about this." The hon. !1inister of Finance was saying we inherited a great public service bill. ~~. RORERTS: I do not think that is a compliment, by the way. • 'P. . !tO!oiE: Sir, the hen.

Y.inister of Finance said, '~e cannot provide all we wish beca~e of the great public serv:l.ce bill we inherited, Therefore we had to come in with the cutbacks." Well, • Sir, the remarkable thing about it is that I, as far as my memory serves me, this administration got elected in 1972. That is when they inherited this great mess, this great public service bill. How eome it was necessary to bring in a budget, an emergency budget, :~ovel!tber 24, 1975, 852 ·~.

~fay 21, 1976 Tape no. 2883 Page 1 - m>-· !1r. Rowe. three ye<Ors l&ter, Sir, \~hen we have highlights such as this. This budget is the first Fall supplementary budget since Confederation, the main objectives of which are to correct present budgetary trends - present budgetary trends - outlining a revised approach to the Gull Island project, outlining the provincial government's approach to the federal government's attack on inflation. Sir, the minister said that we would have been facing a $30 million current account deficit, and I believe in the same budget his aim was to cut it down to $11 ~illion.

Is this the same budget? -yes. Eleven ~illion dollars- that was the ain of the governnent to cut the current account deficit do~n to $11 wi!lion. It is a most UJusual situation. The government has already started a budgetary revision programme to reverse unfavourable trends in existen~e. The Premier announced cut~back restraints and freezes in government spending October 15, 1975. The Ne,.~oun~land Liquor Corporation increased tbe prices of all alcohol beverages on November 1, 1975. This is before the budget. The Fall budget contains further cutbacks and tax increases.

In the 1976-1977 budget will see the deferment of several significant government programmes and the continuation of government spendin6 cutbacks and a thorough assess~ent of existing programmes. This budget, the increase of the retail sales tax from eight per cent to ten per cent, the elimination of vendors' commissions, the increase of personal income tax, a general increase in driver's licence, registration fees, and introduces a complete exemption from sales tax on all purchases of clothing. SO~lE HOH. !·imrBEP..S: Hear , hear!

MP. .• ROWE: Sir, that sounds good on the surface but only to people with the money, only the rich people will benefit greatly from that. It extends the exemption frow sales tax to include coal for heating purposes. SO~~ HO:-;. :ID!:BI:RS: Hear, hear! 8525

·:ay Zl, 1'.176 Tap.: no. 2383 Page :~. !WHE: I just '"'ondered, Sir, how cany peopl~ in Clewfoundland are using coal today as compared, for example, with the n~ber of people who are using electricity. The elimination of the third phase of the pupil/teacher ratio; the deferment of sports and recreation programmes saving $2.15 million; the deferment of ne~; hospital construction, And so we go, Sir.

The question I ask is this: How can the han. ~~inister of Finance stand emotionally in this House, with a quivering voice, and had to sit do~vn and terminate his speech abruptly because of his excitment and czotion, because of the fact ::~:at he says, c>e have inherited a great ;'less, a great public service !Jill, ,;e cannot provide all that ''e wish, when it was not until this emergency budget of 1975, the Fall of 1975 when t hey ind.:ed did cone in with all their cut!Jacks. ~:R. DOODY: That was the first chance I got. :m. Rm.'E : That was the first chance,first chance, ~!r. Speaker, first chance! • !1R.

DOODY: A brand new deputy minister and minister. }!R. ROm:: Oh, first chance. Just listen to this one, Sir, if I do not get if I do not get my budgets all mixed up here. Just listen to this little ?reaT'l~le to that particular bu.Ce;et. "tt~vin~ alre2d~ .. 1 ~ elC. the Treasury Board Fortfolio," he said~ ,;for more thc:n one year I was completely aware of the financial situation facing the :>rovince and the need to put together a rev·iseC fi~ar..cic..l ?lan just si:c \veeks after assuming my u.eu duties;' MR. DOODY: That is what I just said. !1R. ROWE: Okay. ~·fit . DOODY: Six weeks after. !1R.

ROWE: Well, I suppose, the han. minister can remember what he said. I mean he does not have to go chattering away there. "a revised financial plan and just six ,;aeks after a s s umi~g ny new duties it c o ~es as no great surprise to 9e presenting t!"lis partic:.llc:lr bud3et .. 11 3ut the :1on. !:tinis ter said this, "~!avir..g a lre ady ':!eld t he Treasur y Board portfoli o for :rrore t "-an one ;;.:ar." •·:it c1in 8526

--·----- --- Nay 21, 1976 Tape no. 2883 Page 3- mw ~~. Ro~o1e. that one year, Sir, we had a budget presented, the first $1 billion bust - it "'aS not a $1 billion budget, it was a $1 billion bust - presented by the nm• - ~ffi. DOODY: A ~~rilyn Monroe budget. ~lR. ROWE: It was a Marilyn Honroe buP.get combined Hith Jane l·~nsfield probably, all put together • MR. NOLA." : . Jane }'..ansfield vas decapitated. And t~is is probably '·!hat is going to happen to t!-,is ad:ninistra tion 'd th their $1 billion bust. But, Sir, t,·e did have a budget brought in by the late Ron. H.R."i'.

Earle, politically speaking,,cithin that S2!!le yea.!:' t!::::~ t1!e - is i: Chairman or President of Tre:\sury Boc.rd? MR. NOL~: President. HR. ROWE: Be calls it a portfolio in his speech. But witi:",in that year w;1en he already knew, was aware of the financial situation facing this Province "l t~ithin that very time we had this kind of-a budget, the first $1 billion budget in the Province's history. 11 The Gross Provincial Product will grow by 12.5 per cent in 1975 and amount to $2.267 billion.

Tne provincial borrov:-ing requirements for 1:)75-197£ are $:83 r..illion rounded off, including ~~3 millie~ approximately for debt retirement. The proposed ~e~~oundland and Labrador Hydro Electric Corporation will receive financial support from the Government of Canada amounting to $425 ~illion of the estimated $1.6 billion required for th~ 1,800 ~egawatt Gull Island Hydro project, and will begin the construction of the project this year, :ighteen- point-three million dollars will be spent on the fishing industry this year.

Two gas wells drilled off the Labrador Coast by Eastcan Exploration Limited have p~oduced substantial quantities of gas - a nice little tidbit thrown in to raise expectations of the people. rne highway maintenance and construction programme will total $109 million. Improved hospital facilities and health prcgra~es will cost $170 million. 8527

::ay 11 , ! 975 ::ape ~o . 2833 ?age 4 - :J.W ~lR. RO\-'E. Education continues to be the largest expansion programme and will rise to $232 million. Government will improve its student aid programme by providing approximately $4 million by extending its present $450 maximum loan per student programme to all university years. An additional $25 million in school construction and commitments has been made to the school boards in this Province. ~!~~erial University budget 1 including the Health Sciences Complax, .,·ill total aL""1lost $61 million.

Constructio~ of a new headquart:;rs for the :''"wfoundland Constabulary will co=ence in 1975. A. ravis'"d progra~e to give assistance - 11 ~:P. . ROBERTS : ~lr. Speaker, if I could rise on a point of order. : ! R~ SPZAKER (~r. Collins): Point of order. ROBERTS: It is one that has been :!lade many t:i!iles :1ere today, but really it is getting out of hand.

I am not just referring to dbnversations in the House, although the Ydnister of Transportation l and the gentleman from Bay of Islands (Hr. 1-Joodrow) are having quite a loud chat over there, but whoever it is, and I do not know if it is any individual or not, but somehow in the precincts of the lwuse, Sir, in the galleries upstairs and the galleris around here, >;hat ever is happening, you knowt you cannot :1.ear a worcl that is ~ei4lg .:;aid, and, you know, I think as a House of Assembly, Sir, we have a right to ensure that the people in the galleries, be they members or be .they not, either carry on their conversations quietly or carry them on_ not at all.

And I hesitate to interrupt my colleague who is making quite an excellent speech, but could Your Honour perhaps re-inforce the ruling which the Ch&ir has already made today that, you know, that we are entitled, as a House, to have absolute quiet in the galleries. And in some cases it is members but in other cases, Sir, it is not. Tl.e.y are visitors or they are press people or 1-1hat ;1ave you, a:lcl the:y :.~ave ~-ot to respect our :--.::~s. I~ :!..s .:10t ;;cod. ~nough, Si:-, and it has gone on al: morning long. It has been far ....-orse toJay tl1an i.t i1as i.Jeen for ~ar:y, 74ny days.

You ~~now, as a :Jew.ber of the :iouse I 1·!ant to rai.se that, Sir, and as l ~ Your !-1onour to tak2 the 2ppropriate actic~. 8528

!!ay 21, 1976 Tape no. 2883 Page 5 - m;.• :~. S?L;KEP. (::-.Collins): Ir. regarc to :~e point o: order, t~e bon. Leade-: o: the Oppos!.:ion very correctly points out that an hon . member addressin& the aouse has the right to be hearc in silence and

whereas this does not preclude conversations between ether bon . mem~ers ::hese cn."lversations sho~ld be ke;>t at the low-est possible vohme. In regarc to mem!lers in the galleries ~ absolute silence has to be ~incained at all times . This applies no: only to s:ran~ers in the galleries but to anyone occupyin~ the galleries . In regarc ::o the corridors in :he pro>:ic:ity of ::.e :louse, agai~ t~e vol~e o! noise ~~s:: be kep: :o the lo~est possiole level so aE r.o: to in:er!ere "--it h : he ;:roceecin&s o! the ho:~ . nc~se . 8529

~·c. 21 , 1975 Tap e ,:o. 2ga4 }~. SPEAKER (na. COLL~IS): The hon. member for Trinity­ Bay de verde. MR. ROW: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Sir, the point that I was trying to make when the point of order was raised is that I have just read through and I was about to read the last list in the highlights of the $1 billion bus ·t budget or the election budget, whatever you wish to call it.

The last great . indication of expenditure was "A revised programme to give assistance with the construction of net• stadiums tdll be introduced in 1975 .'1 Now, Sir, I have gone through one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fourteen highlights of the $1 billion bust budget, the election budget which required the expenditures of vast sums of money, Yet t .he Minister of Finance who was President of the Treasury Board at that time has already admitted that he was aware of the precarious financial situation of the Province one year in advance to the time he was !Unister of Finance.

In other words,the President of Treasury Board, Sir, was aware of the hazardous financial situation of this Provinc.e at the very time this elec.tion budget was de'-ivered via TV to the people of this Province just prior to election. He was a party to it, Sir. He allowed it to happen. Sir, hrn• can the minister stand in his plac.e with any degree of pride or co.nviction and say now that these cutbac!<s are necessitated because of the great public service bill that they inherited, because of the great mess they inherited.

And they cannot provide what they wish to now because of that one, because they inherited the sa-called mess in 1972, not 1975. There was no indication in the election speech of 1975, delivered on ~!arc.h 12, 1975, no indication whatsoever that tve ~>·ere in a precarious financ.ial situation. But the present minist'er now has 8530

~.ay 21, 1976 Tape No. 2884 N~! - 2 publicly admitted that while he was President of Treasury Board he was quite a~rare of it.

Yet he was a party to, and he was partly responsible for, and he endorsed and he campaigned and stood by an administration which brought this great promising, glorious $1 billion budget to the people of the Province and then in the same year, in the very same year, November 24, 1975, the present ~.d.nister of Finance rapes, scrapes and scratches and tears out practically every highlight contained in the 1975 Budget and delivers us with the Fall Budget in which, to put it mildly, is a reversal, is the complete antithesis of, is a complete contradiction to the main budget that was delivered :'!R. CROSBIE: ~.

ROC-1E: The first three were the best. - in the first fe•r years. The first three were the best, Sir. Oh yes, Sir, the first three were the best, eh? The first three were the best. }!R. RIDEOUT: We have something to say about that here. MR. ROWE: Let us get the very first one. Oh so it is, the bon. John C. Crosbie. MR. CROSBIE: No picture. ~·!R. ROEE : No picture. Thank God for that. That is about the best part of the budget, Sir, no picture. This was a great budget, Sir, this is what the bon. Hinister, the defunct :>-!inister of Finance, now ~nister of ~ines and Energy calls one of the best bud~ets.

A current account deficit of almost $4 million, very good, and increasing each year thereafter. This was great news after all the support. I can remember the students at the university following the hon. minister all over the Province just like the people after Peter Pan }!R. CROSBIE: !ffi.. ROBERTS : ~~- ROT-1E : Still do. Yes but for a different purpose this time. The han. Peter Pan minister. After he won the support of the university students, 'fr. Speaker, 8531

·. ''!"-!' - 3 he then announced a decrease in provincial sup!'ort to university students throu~h raising the re~uired Canada Student Loan floor to $600, from $400 for the provision of any provincial assistance, a decrease in the number of graduate fellowships from 130 to 90 and the elimination of the $400 pupil-teacher grant. That was good news. That was a great piece of stuff for the people who helped electe ·t~e - T:1e eli'llination of the Provincial Parerts Subsidy Programme, the do.ubling of the tobacco tax. Great ne>-tS, Sir.

Tolen if I •,;anted to ~rae!?. t~rom;h t~e various budgets He will see an increasing current account deficit. Until this year the ailll was to reduce it to $11 million. Imagine the aim of an administration to trJ to hol~ the current account deficit to ~11 million. We have seen a constant and consistent increase in every tax possible, every tax possible, from registration fees for vehicles, drivers licence, tobacco, liquor, gasoline, oil, sales tax, provincial income tax, there is nothing else to tax • • om RO • MEMBER: That is what you think. MR. RoBERTS: .

They could tax the salaries of senior officials. is what I think. So the minister has another source to tap. Probably the minister is thinking of another source to tap. Probably the minister is thinking of tapping the subsidiary of .the C'rosbie Company. The minist .er may have that up his sleeve, Sir, I do not know. MR. CROSBIE: You are a captive. MR.

ROWE: But, Sir, I would be quite willing to disclose what benefits I have gained from being a subsidiary of the Crosbie group of companies and I can assure you that you "\vOuld need a microscope to find it, as I am sure· is true for most, if not all of my colle .a,gues on t!lis side of the House. But, 8532 ,•·

}lay 21, 1976 Tape No. 2884 '':R. R01.JE : Sir, lest I be diverted, let me get back to the original point that I "ffi.. CROSBIE: ~'R . ROl<TE: Let me make a bad report to Andrew. I keep notes for him. I think the Province is deeply aware of that, Xr. Speaker. It is always great to have one foot on each side, or both feet on each side of the fence. J.:N. RON. MEMTlEll.: As long as the pickets are not too high. }!R. ROl-lE: As long as the pickets are not -One of those days, Sir, the minister is either going to shrink or slip or the pickets will be raised, and he will be impaled upon his mm - well.

An'Y'1ay before I get too biological, ~~r. Speaker, I .i ust want to reiterate,and I had not intended to take this much time, that if hon. members opposite will do what I did, and I sincerely request him to do, just - it is only a couple of pages out of six budgets, just open th~ up and start frore 1972 and read the comical fiscal fits of the budgets, the inconsistencies, the convolutions, the great budgets oefore an election and the telling of the truth after the election.

Sir, if there was every recommended reading to other ministers of finance of the various Provinces of this nation as to what not to do, I would submit, Sir, that Newfoundland Information Services could probably get some revenue into this Province by printing up this six budgets advanced by this administration and entitle it, An Encyclopedia Of l.fuat !'lot .Ic:>_.Do In Terms Of Presentat; ons Of Budgets To The Province~.: Because, Sir, it is a very sorry roller coaster type of budgetary strategy when you look at the -highlights and you can see the current a~count deficit steadily climbing when you see one year cutbac~~. you see another year great announcements of 8533

"ay 21, l 0 7f ,~, - 5 ''ll_. !l.'J'·!E : gree.t expenditures and t hen another year cut bac ks age.in, then increases in !:axes, There is just no consistency "hatsoever, Sir, and I tend to agree with the hon. mel!lber for 'T'N'illingate (!A:r. Smalhmod) when he suggests that we are in a very hazardous financial situation. However, I do not think that this government gives a hoot, cares a darn 8534

----------- - }lay 21, 1~76 Tape 2885 IB-1 l!P .• ROvlE: what kind of a situation they will leave this Province in because they have accepted the inevitable within their 01ro souls. They have accepted the fact that they will not be around after the next election. And the bigger the mess they can leave for the Liberal Administration after the next election the greater their hopes - .AN HON. ME?-::BER: Which Liberal group? }!!' •• RO\\'E: The only Liberal Party in this Province - the greater their hopes of getting back in power in a few years after that.

Because, Sir, I fi:rmly believe and I realize that I am speaking politically. This is a political forum. I realize that I am being kind of partisan and I do not apologize for it whatsoever. But I feel very strongly and very sincerely that this government's fiscal policy has been a political fiscal policy. It has been a partisan political fiscal policy and therefore I think it warrants a partisan political analysis. That I have done.

I think it is a plot on the part of this administration to leave the boys Who are going to take over the next time around with such a horrendous mess that it is their hope that they will only survive one term and they will be back. \-.Tell, Sir, we 1.Til1 survive more than one term. We will act responsibly. 1\Te will not make any irresponsible promises during election campaign. No Sir! And then we will not retract and retrench and retreat after the election as has this present administration.

Sir, I think that it is deplorable, deceitful, deceptive -and shocking what this government has done to the people of Newfoundland-and I will return to the same old theme - in raising their expectations during the Summer and dropping them in the Fal~~ and this is exactly what this administration has done. It is a sadt sad situation, ¥r. Speaker, and I fear for the welfare and the future of tr~s Province under the fiscal policy of this administration. They have to do one of two things. They have to do ~e thing. ft~d one thing I reco~end is that they become consistent. 8535

j !· ~a.y 21 , 1976 !ape 288 5 IB-2 l'R . RmTE : And there is no consistency to be found in this particular series of budgets presented by the administration. The only consistency is deeper and more deeply going into debt. The only . consistency has been constant increases in taxes. The great inconsistency has been an indication of great things to come only to let the people down in the final analysis. So,Sir, I do not know how to react to this particular budget except to say that this govei:runent certainly should not hold the confidence of this House. MP,. HICKMAN: Let us have a vote. ~!P .• RO ~: ~:r.

Speaker, the hon. minister just said, "Let us have a vote.•L How brave of the hon. Minister of Justice! E.ow brave for hil!l to say, "Let us have a vote", when he know that they have the big majority. They have the big stick over there and they can vote down anything that ~hey wish to vote down or they can vote in anything they wish to vote in. MR. HIClQ'.AN: There is nothing unprecedented about that. ~ . R0¥1E : It is not unprecedented and everybody realizes it and makes the minister sound all the 1110re silly for saying, "Let us have a vote." Hmv foolish! How silly! Eow i=ature! How pious!

For a minister, Sir, who just got in by the skin of his teeth, fluked in. We would have greater contributions that the kind of yahooing the minister is getting on with now. Sir, lest I be prowked I am told I only have a couple of minutes left, just in case I ge·t provoked by the utterances, the whinings, the yahooings - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MF.. RO~ : The hQn. Minister of Mines and Energy is - what did I say to the minister? I had various conversations with the member for Tw:ll.lingate (l'.r. ~ilnallwood). I have been talking with the meUjber for Twillingate (}'r.

Smallwood) for some twenty-t~•o or three or four or five years. I had not ceased talking to hi~. \\fuat the hon. member for T"~<Tillingate (Yr. Small wood) was talking about last night is utter and complete foolishness. 8536

l!ay 21, 197E Tape 2885 !13-3 Ml HON . ~ 'EY.BER: You just said what a great man he is. But I rur. not going to get into that. There will be time for that. If the member for Twillingate (}•r. Smallwood) wants to raise it I will take him head on. '!-P-. WELLS : You are not afraid? }fl' __ ROWE: I am not afraid of any minister or any hon. member for Twillingate ( ~r. Smallwood) in this House, Sir. I respect certain people. I disagree with certain people but that is not the point here. Sir, I will just simpl y close and say that this is the sad~est

chapter in a fictional fiscal novel as presented by this administration. I just hope t~~t we will not see another

chapter that indictes that the financial situatjon of the Province i s i n worst sha pe than we "'' 1< <oday. ~ SCl'E RON. MD'BERI>: Hear, hear! ~. SPEAKER: The hen. member for LaPoile. MI .. NE/>.RY: ~r. Speaker, I do not w=t to dash the hopes of the hen. member Who just took his seat in his remarks there during the latter part of his debate in .connection with winning the next election. I would assume from the statements of the hen . gentleman that the Liberal Party ~~11 be holding a leadership convention in the foreseeable future and, Mr.

Speaker, th~ various people will have an opportunity to offer themselves as candidates for the leadership of the Liberal Party. Because I would submit to the hen. gentleman that one of the most frustrating things in this Province at the present time, one of the things that is tantalizing the people of this Province is the fact that they are fed up with the present administration, fed up but they see no alternative to the government and therein lies the probleo, Yr. Speaker, they can see no alternative to the government at this particular moment.

Now, Sir, as far as a coalition is concerned one thing I agree vith the hen. member on is that before another year, before anot her tvelve months comes to an end,there are going to be some 8537

vay 21, 1976 Tape 28e5 IB-4 ~~. NEARY: interesting developrrents in politics in Ne~rroundland and this is going to be a very, very :!.nteresting House indeed. Becaw;;e I ~.rould agree with the hon. member who just took his seat that ~~enever the three by-elections are called, whether it is before the federal St. John's West by-election or following the federal by-election in St.

John's West, whenever it is called, that the government are in such bad shape in this Province at the moment that they are going to lose all three by-elections, in Exploits, in Ronavista North and in Ferry1and, that the government will lose the three by­ elections, that the three mel!1bers will come on this side of the Hq.t;ae SOl!le-where. I am not predicting that they will be three me~ers elected to the old line Liberal Party.

Haybe soll!e of them may be elected to the Liberal Reform group and maybe there ~ay be some independents elected because people are starting to think more along the lines of forgetting the party label. Party labels in Newfoundland at this particular moment do not mean a thing. People are fed up to the teeth with the two old-line parties. A!if RON. ~1D'J3EP.: Are you going to -run any candidates? 'P .• ~ARY: ~<ell~! do not know. I cannet say no to that, Sir. There is a possibility.

I have been approached by a number of people who ask u:e if I 'oJOuld support them if they ran as independent Liberals, as a matter of fact as independent P.C. So, Sir, this whole idea is catching on, that the party labels, Sir, do not mean a thi!lg. I believe in the by-elections that people will be voting for the man rather than for the party. So it will depend largely on which party can get the best - MR. J. ·CARTER: On a point of order. ~. SPEAKER: A point of order has arisen. :'1!' . J . CAPIE!>_: Yr. Speaker, this House does not recognize political parties.

Therefore it is my belief that any mention of any pol i tical party, new P.C., old P.C., ?eform Liberal, Liberal, Conservative, is 8538

···- - --- -=· ======-==-----==-==========--::::=:~:=::-'-- nay 21, 1976 Tape 2885 IB-5 !-11'.. J . CAP.TER: out of order . ·are those There are those who sup;>ort the &!JVerniDell.t and there ~. t<"EA.P.Y: Go ba ck to your sav oury patch. }ffi.. J. CARTER: - and there are those wo do not suppo:-t the govei"llll!eot. But thi,s House does not - MR. DOODY: Jo.nd there are a lot who do from time to time. Hear, hear! l1P. . J . C A "TE"R : This is true. s the ~Snist er of Finance has pointecl out there are those l<lho sometimes support the govenunent. But the point is, }~r . Speake:-, that this Bouse does not recognize political

part i es and t herefore for any Eember to get up and prate about Tories or Liberals or th.i~> or t:tet or the other is ccmpletely ou t of order . ! would like a ru~ing made for all time . ~T .. NEAP.Y : Y.r. Speaker, that is not a point of order. I "-'ish Your lionour would put the member back in his cage, Sir . ~rn.. SPE.'IJ.tER: Orde r, please! Cerrainly t here i s nothing out of order to my knowledge in men.tioniog political parties whether the Bouse recognizes them or not. The boo. member for LaPoile. 8539 I -

;:~ ::ay 1~76 ~ c.pe ~o . 188E 1 - :::~; T:1ar .. l: you, Your Honour o So, Hr. Speaker, it leaves the people of Newfoundland with a choice of either voting for the ~an, whether he represents the P. C. Party or the old-line Liberals or the Liberal Reform Party or be Independent. But I think the vote will be more along the lines of voting for the man. -~d I would strongly submit to this House, Your Honour, that this may be the year that the ~p may make some strong gains in this Province. And, ~I.

Speaker, I am particularly rather proud of that because I started ::1y political career as an 'TDP' er, the :iev..foundland De~ocratic ?arty, :·l:)P 0 :m. DOODY: A netv party. ~<ell, let me explain to my hen. frie:J.d 1-1hy it <Vas called the Newfoundland De::10cratic Party, because I t•as t:1e originator of that party. It was my idea. It tvas a protest party because of the I\~A dispute in Newfoundland. Tell us about the meeting in the Newfoundland Hotel. MR. N