VOL. 3 PRELD'INARY l1NEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEHBLY FOR TilE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. T'RIDAY, JTJ1'!F 23, 19711 NO. 101)

' June 23, 1978 The House met at 10:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape No. 4788 NM- 1 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SPEAKER: The MR. ~~. Rmm: Is Does the House Leader know? to him. ORAL gUESTIONS: hon. Leader of the Opposition. the Premier coming in this morning? There is a question I wanted to direct MR. HICKMAN: I did not speak with him yet today. I understand he is going to Corner Brook. MR. NEARY: but I am here. MR. W. ROWE: Well I am going to Corner Brook too There was a question I wanted to ask the Premier, Mr.

Speaker, a grave matter,in my opinion, It is with reluctance I will ask the· minister who is directly concerned the question himself, and let me see what his answer is, Sir. Let me preface ti1e question by saying it is not a question, Sir, of innocence or guilt at this stage in proceedings.

But the fact is, Sir, that grave allegations of impropriety and irregularity 9 which may be proved or disproved ultimately, have been made in sworn testimony by several public servants, at least two public servants, former and present public servants, against a couple of ministers of the Crown, two former ~linisters of Public Works,Sir. Now ministers o~ cou~se are in a position of public trust.

Does not the minister concerned, the present ¥J.nister of Labour, does not he think that it would be advisable to either suspend himself or have himself suspended until these matters of irregularities and improprieties or allegations that are being made are cleared up against him2 ~. SPEAKER: The hon. !1inister of Labour and Manpower. 11360

June 23, 1978 Tape No. 4788 NH- 2 }!R. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, I just returned-! was away for a couple of days- yesterday and it was my intention to talk with the Premier, the Premier is not in town today. It would be my intention not to make any comments because it would be my intention to appear before the commission at some point, whether by invitation or at my own request and say what I have to say ther.e. So I will talk to the Premier in the next ~ouple of days and see where it goes from there. MR.. SPEAKER: The ~riginal questioner 1a supplementary. MR. W. ROtVE: Mr.

Speaker, I say it is with grave reluctance that I am doing this,but does the minister not think, Sir, that he owes the House of Assembly some sort of an explanation. ·1 understand he is going to give· testi.litony before the commission itself, but does he not owe the House1upon which he depends for support, his very presence in the office is dependent on the support of this House, does he not think he owes the House of Assembly some explanation of these allegations of impropriety? HR. SPEAKER: MR. ROUSSEAU: The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. Mr.

Speaker, it was my intention to appear before the commission because quite frankly I think I wouid get a much better hearing there than I l~ould in the House of Assembly. And I will say what I have to say before that commission. As I say 1 I will talk to the Premier in the next few days and see where it goes from there. MR. SIMMONS: MR. SPEAKER: Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A supplementary, the hon. member for Burgeo - Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the fact that the minister will. appear before the enquiry and·that is certainly welcomed news.

His slight of the House is another issue but that is not the brunt o- the central point of the question that has been ralsed by my~·colleague, the Leader of the Opposition. The question relates to the fact that the minister; the former minister of another department but now the 1.1.361

June 23, 1978 Tape No, 4788 NM- 3 !-!:R. SIMMONS: minister of a department tJhich requires a large degree of trust and confidence by the public and certainly by his immediate staff, the question really, Mr. Speaker, is in view of. the allegation- not what he is going to do about these allegations or whether he thinks or knot~s them to be true or f alae, that these are not the questions, ~r.

Speaker ~the question is very simply, in view of the fact that the allegations have been made and have been repeated, made in the first instance by a very senior public official who served that minister as deputy minister - MR. W. ~OWE: ~m. sn1:10Ns: conditions,of course. In sworn testimony now. This testimony has been given under sworn The question, !1r.

Speaker, is whether in view of these allegations now having become public, the minister feels it would not be in the best interest, and here is the question, does he feel it would not be in the best interest for him to vacate the post until this matter has been cleared up ? And I point out to him Mr. Speaker, by way of a brief preamb.le, the precedent in the Briti-sh Columbia where a Minister of the Crown, Mr. Jack Davis, became involved in a charge and the Premier of the Province requested him to vacate the post until such time as the matter was cleared up.

Does the minister feel that would be the appropriate course of action in this instance here? MR. SPEAKER: HR. ROUSSEAU: The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. I have given the matter much thought, ~lr. Speaker, but again 9you know, the Premier is the gentleman who appoints members of the Cabinet• I do not think it would be appropriate for me to take any unilateral action without talking to the Premier. Like I say,I returned yesterday 11362

Ju.ne 23, 1978 Tape 4789 EC - 1 MR. ROUSSEAU: from a trip outside the country on behalf of the Department of Labour on government bUsiness. I have not had a chance to talk to the Premier. I would do that, and I think it is a matter of courtesy to the Premie~ since he appointed me to the position I now hold, it would be appropriate and a matter of courtesy that I talk with him first. I intend to do that I hope before Tuesday. MR. SIMMONS: MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. the member for Burgeo -Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: I thank the minister for his· answer.

I understand his wanting to talk to the Premier on a matter this grave and this important. Is it fair to assume from the minister's answer that one of the options he has considered in view of the circumstances we have described and he is aware of, is it fair to assume that one of the options he has considered in the past few days and will discuss with the Premier is the option of either resigning from Cabinet outright or vacating the post until this matter has been cleared up? MR. SPEAKER: and Manpower. MR. ROUSSEAU: The bon. the Minister of Labour Mr.

Speaker, I appreciate the question, but again, I say that I will talk· to the Premier and I hope by Tuesday have something to say along those lines. And I am just going to leave it at that. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my question - 1 would like to put it to the Premier, but in view of the fact that the Premier is not here I would like to ask the Acting Premier, the Deputy Premier, the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Justice, what action this government is going to take if arty in barring Quebec workers from ~oming 11363

June 23, 1978 Tape 4789 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: into Newfoundland as Ontario has done in taking steps now to put legislation through the Legislature of Ontario retaliating against Mr. Levesque and the Government of Quebec for barring Ontario construction workers from going into the Province of Quebec. What is the stand now of this government? Because in the morning news I noti~e a Canadian Press st~ry, I believ~ it is - yes, Canadian Press says that Newfoundland may be interested in this matter also - Newfoundland, New Brunswick and Ontario.

So I presume that there have already been some dialogue or negotiations in connection w~th this matter. MR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKMAN: The hon. the Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, I am not in a position to comment on any negotiations which may or may not have taken place, but obviously the Government of Newfoundland have some very real interest in this matter.

It has been a recurring problem, particularly in the Labrador City - city of Wabush area that has been going on quite some time prior to the election of the Levesque government, particularly in Fermont where we have had on occasion Newfoundland tradesmen being summoned to court because they were working without a permit. On each occasion then I contacted the then Minister of Justice, Mr.

Gerard Levesque, and as all of these complaints had been filed I think by the trade union movement, the Attorney General of Quebec or the Minister of Justiee of Quebec took the apptopriate arrangements and none of it ever came to fruition, But there has always been an ind~cation to Quebec that if Newfoundla.nd Canadian workers in ~he Canadian Province of Quebec have any of their rights violated and ~ they can constitutionally do it - and I have some doubts if they can - then certainly the Government of Newfoundland holds itself in the position and retains the right to retaliate if retaliation- which is a nasty word and not a very good word - but at least to take appropriate steps to 11364

June 23, 1978 Tape 4789 EC - 3 MR. HICKMAN: counteract that. As of now, as I say, the problem has been resolved whenever it has occurred but I do not think we should ever be in a position where we let our guard down at all. Any negotiations that have been ongoing,in my ministry I would not be the party to it so I am not in a position to advise the House. MR. NEARY: Mr, Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, A supplementary question. Mr. Speaker, as the action of the Province of Quebec, Mr.

Levesque's government, in barring Ontario construction workers from working in the Provin~e of Quebec strikes at the very basis of Canadian unity and will become effective, Sir, on July lst, I believe, the legislation that is going through the House - which is at the beginning of Canada Week, by the way· - as it strikes at the very basis of Canadian unity right at a time when we are moving into the celebration of Canada Week, could the Minister 11365

June 23, 1978 Tape No. 4790 NM- 1 MR. NEARY: tell the House if this government should aot state its position on this very important matter., Sir f As the hon. gentleman indicates, it involves workers in Wabush and Labrador City and with our unemployment getting worse and worse that we should, if Quebec insists on going ahead with this legislation and enforcing it, we should send back across the Quebec border Quebecers who are working in Labrador City and Wabush. Should we not take a stand in the interest of Canadian unity if nothing else. The government, should they not make a statement? -}!R. SPEAKER: }!R.

HICKMAN: The hon. Minister of Justice. We are getting into a philosophical discussion. This is a two edged sword. I could think of one way to disenchant Canadians living in the Province of Quebec even more so than they are now, and that was if we tried the unconstitutional act of,to quote the bon. member for LaPoile (Hr.

Neary), "driving them back across the border." I do not know how long one has to be living in a particular province to be regarded as a resident, you know,duly domiciled in the Province and I presume therefore that if a Canadian from any other Canadian province came into Newfoundland and said, '1 now intend to live here permanently,' that the length of his or her stay in the Province would not be very relevant and that they would qualify. I think they have the right anyway, .the freedom of movement across Canada.

To me that is the fudamental question ofunity and 1 would very seriously doubt if the government or the Legislature of any Province has the legislative authority to enact laws which would be deemed or designed to in any way curtail the free movement of Canadians from one province to the other. But Quebec has been up to this kind of approach for a long, long time and it is not a Levesque - }!R. NEARY: Over a year • . MR,. RICKMAN: Over a year. It is not a Levesque approach. I would remind the hon. gentleman that the first legislation, the work permit 11366.

June 23, 1978 Tape No. 4790 NM - 2 MR. HICIOfAN: legislation came in under Prime Minister Bourassa. We had some very serious problems in Ferment a couple of years ago where complaints, as I say, were laid I believe on the insistence of the local unions in the area. But in any event they ware laid against Newfoundlanders who were working aa .skilled craftsmen and tradesmen in that area. But in any event what government should do will have to be done firstly in the interest of Newfoundlanders ·and secondly in the interest of trying to keep this nation together.

And I am sure we all take a great deal of encouragement over the fact that recent opinion polls indicate that a vast majority of Quebecers are not following the separatist line of their government. It is a very delicate balance that we have to play with right now and, you know, provocative statements may be the very thing that the hon. Rene Levesque would welcome from a province as is predominantly Anglophone. MR. NEARY: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile,a supplementary, and then I will hear a supplementary from the hon. member for Eagle River. :lR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I agree with the hon. gentleman that we should work within the constitution, but I believe, Sir, that this government should make a public statement or write the Prime Minister of Canada because we are affected by,· and will be affected by this situation and I would like to see Quebec, Sir, backtrack on their attempt to cause dissention and hatred among the workers of our nation in the interest of Canadian unity. But I believe the government here in this Province should support the legislation, the move that is being made by the Government of Ontario, and so should 11367

June 23, 1978 Tape No. 4790 NM- 3 MR. NEARY: New Brunswick, the provinces whose borders are on the Province of Quebec, that we should try to persuade Quebec to backtrack..

That is all I am asking the minister to do now is within the constitution. to write the Prime Minister or the Attorney General, the Minister of Justice for Canada and ask him to put a stop to this under our constitution, under the British North America Act, or this goveniment here join with the Government of Ontario in trying to persuade the Government of Quebec to backtrack on this matter that can only cause dissention and hatred among the workers of this nation. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKl1AN: Mr.

Speaker, I thank the hon. gentleman for bringing this matter to the attention of the House and it is a serious matter and I will assure this House that government will very seriously consider what is the best approach to take with respect to this problem. Insofar as the Attorney General of Canada is concerned, he does not have the right to tell 11368

June 23, 1978 Tape 4791 EC - 1 MR. HICKMAN: the Legislature of any province as to what laws they will pass or will not pass. There is a right vested in the Governor General in Council, the right of disallowance, which is seldom ~sed by the federal government, but they do have the right to disallow provincial leg~slatio~. There was a request many years ago from here, one will tecall, that a piece of legislat~on be disallowed, but even though it was a provocative bill, the I.W.A. one, the Governor General in Council would not disallo~ it.

I cannot recall in the last twenty years a bill being disallowed by the Governor General in Council. What happens then,of course, is that an~ person has the right to take the appropriate case stated to the Supreme Court of Canada for a declaration that the law is ultra vires the province. But with respect to the Government of Newfoundland making its wishes known to the Government of Quebec I would think that that can be accomplished and should be accomplished if indeed the Quebec Government is trying to do something that its predecessors in office were doing more than what they are already doing. MR.

STRACHAN: MR. SPEAKER: member for Eagle River. MR. STRACHAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. the Mr. Speaker, getting off the bigger ~uestion an~ getting down to more specific questions concerning this Quebec issue1 The strike in Labrador City - Wabush will be resolved hopefully sooner than later and we are deeply concerned that many people, staff members, who had worked for eleven, twelve, .fourteen, fifteen years were termiriated. They were not laid off, they were terminated. And the discussion generally was that they would be replaced on the start up of the ope~ations by Quebec workers.

Now th~se are Newfoundland people who have been working there for years and years ~nd they have been terminated instead 11369

June 23, 1978 Tape 4791 EC • 2 MR. STRACHAN: of it just being a normal lay off procedure. A number of them came back here, I have seen a number of them, and I am concerned that what Quebec is doing is exactly the same situation, is moving in or trying to move in workers in order to obviously gain footholds or gain numbers, because it is a numbers gain.

I am wondering whether the minister could assure us that if this occurs that when the strike is resolved will the minister and th~ other departments involved make sure that a priority is given to Newfoundland and Labrador people to be rehired by IOC and Wabush rather than to hire people from elsewhere? MR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKMAN: The hon. the Minister of Justice. The question raised by the hon. the member for Eagle River is not one that requires legislation.

What I gather the bon. gentleman is suggesting is that when the strike in Labrador City is finally resolved that there may be other pressures, economic pressures brought to bear which may result in Newfoundlanders with ten years of service with IOC and the Wabush companies not being rehired. I would think that my colleague, the hon. the Minister of Labour, who represents the area as well, and I am sure, that the hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy, are in a better position to exercise and exert economic pressure on IOC.

And I have to confess I would be awfully surprised if IOC would succumb to that kind of economic pressure by the Government of Quebec or any other government outside of this Province. I would hope that this will not occur and I would hope that what we are hearing now is what so often arises, concerns and uncertainties when you have a protracted strike. People very naturally become concerned over their future.

But if it should happen I feel reasonably certain that the bon. the Minister of Labour would hear about it immediately or some other hon. gentleman in this House and that being brought to the attention of government, whatever 11370

June 23, 1978 Tape 4791 EC - 3 MR. HICKMAN: definitive and effective action is necessary we will take it. MR. STRACHAN: MR. SPEAKER:. gentleman from Eagle River. MR. STRACHAN: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary, the hon. The people that I am referring to were asked by IOC durin! the strike - the staff workers and so on - if they would agree to voluntary termination of their jobs; in other words. they would be voluntarily terminated, which of course, would mean that they could not gain unemployment insurance.

And I advised a considerable number of them not to accept that and they were therefore involuntarily terminated. And I understand that the ruling came through from Sept Iles - it did not come through from Labrador City or Wabush. - the ruling came through from Sept Iles that these people, Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, be terminated and the question basically was that the number was up. The union talks about it all the time - the system~ that the numbers came through and that was it and they had gone. My argument basically then is can there be assurance that these people who have worked many, many years 11371

June 23, 1978 Tape No. 4792 NM- 1 !1R. STRACHAN: will be given their jobs back? There was no complaint from the local side at Labrador City about their work, there was no complaint that they could not carry out their duties, they were given excellent references.· So can we guarantee that those people when the strike is over will be given their jobs back with the same seniority_ - twelve or fifteen years is a long time to work to have it suddenly wiped out - .and to make sure that workers from elsewhere, from Seven Islands possibly or elsewhere in Quebec, will not be given these jobs? MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: That, Mr. Speaker, appears to be a two pronged question. One is ~~here a job that still must be filled is vacated as a result of IOC terminating .the employment of some man or woman who has seniority for the purpose of filling it later on or after the strike is over by a resident outside this Province; there I thirik that the Province has and should and I knotv will exert I·Thatever influence it has to prevent the occurrence of this very undesirable event.

The second prong of that question seems to fall ;r.ore in~o the category of ~~here if the company has come to the conclusion that that position is now redundant in the light of the demand for their product on world markets and that a redundancy clause comes into affect because the person is no longer needed, that would be a matter that I do not think any government, by legislation or otherwise, would have very much control over but again can only express the hope that this does not happen.

But the first one,certainly government would respond very quickly and I would hope very effectively should that chain of events occur. :11.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South, followed by Trinity - Bay de Verde, Leiwporte, and Bellevue, 11372

June 23', 1978 Tape No. 4792 NM- 2 ~. NOLAN: Ur. Speaker, a question for the substitute Premier, the House Leader opposite.

In view of the am1ouncements today that it appears that Newfoundland Light and Po\;er are to get a ten per cent increase, and according to the submission of the Public Utilities Commission that beeause there is going to be a continual reduction in the use of energy,and this is apparently what is happening, people are using mor~ -~ they are going cold or they are lowering temperatures and so on- Newfoundland Light and Power are.going to have perhaps a ten per cent increase added to power costs, another $100 a year~ I understand ,for those who have their homes electrically heated and so on, what is the current position of the government regarding the Newfoundland Light and Power for a company that wants a major substantial increase from the taxpayers and consumers, in view of the fact that they are using less energy as they were asked to do by federal and provincial governments, they have done everything that they could do and what do they get for it?

They are going to be charged more. What is the position of the government on this, if this massive increase comes .into effect, bearing in mind that it has increased by thirty per cent already this year? MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKI1AN: Mr. Speaker, I was not aware that the costs to the consumer of electricity has raised by thirty per cent already this year. I saw, as did the hon. gentleman from Conception Bay South (Mr.

Nolan), a report in this morning's Daily News of the arguments that were advanced by a very competent council for the Newfoundland Federation of Mayors and Hunic:i:palities in which he indicated that the Newfoundland - which we all knew from reading the press .,. that the Newfoundland Light 11.nd Power Comp!UlY Limited is in effect asking for an increase which could result, if granted in full, the consumer paying an extra $8 a month on an average for his or her electricity in the Province. That was his argument and I - 11373

June 23, 1978 MR.. ~IURPHY: MR. HICIQ!A..'l: Tape No. 4792 N11- 3 The average increase was $80 a month? No. No. Eight dollars, e-i-g-h-t. But in any event this was the argument advanced, as I understand it, by counsel for those who intervened and argued very well indeed. I would certainly not want to prejudge the decision of the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities.

I would point out to this House that under the Public Utilities Act which haa been in force in this Provinc.e since the early fifties, that at law the board of Commissioners of Public Utilities is obligated to approve a rate increase that will provide a reasonable rate of return to any utility coming before it. AN RON. MEMBER: What is reasonable? MR. HICKMAN: Reasonable rate of return is one I guess defined by the board and in that respect I have no hesitancy in saying that the board in Newfoundland is far more competent 11374

June 23, 1978 Tape 4793 EC - 1 MR. HICKMAN: to make that definition than any board I know in Canada and that is why the chairman of our board is ranked as Canada's ablest. MR. NOLAN: MR. SPEAKER: ~1R. NOLAN: A supplementary. A supplementary. Mr. Speaker, let us not be· evasive. The situation on power for the Newfoundland Light and Power, someone has to be the culprit as far as the consumers are concerned. Newfoundland Hydro is a direct agency of this government.

Now the minister and his gover.nment are faced with two choices, either,one, take a definitive stand against the Newfoundland Light and Power or,two, reduce the cost from Newfoundland Hydro to Newfoundland Light and Power so that it can be passed on to the consumer. Now stop passing the buck. I mean, what is the minister prepared to do and a~vise his colleagues in Cabinet on this matterl SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I am not prepared to pass the buck or recommend to my collea'gues in Cabinet that we pass the buck along the line suggested by the hon. the member for C~nception Bay South (Mr. Nolan), because his buck would mean an increase in the .bucks th~t the people of Newfoundland would have to pay by way of tax. MR~ NOLAN: Newfoundland ·Hydro is making a profit according to you. MR. HICKMAN: Because, Mr.

Speaker, if we say to Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro that you cannot have the· increase recommended by the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities· they are obliged under their legislation and.under their trust deeds of borrowings that have been done over .the last twenty years that Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro cannot operate at a loss under the terms of these deeds.· }1R. NOLAN: Waste· o£ Newfoundland Hydro. 113?5

June 23, 1978 Tape 4793 EC - 2 MR. HICKMAN: Now, Mr. Speaker, if we decide - and it is within the sphere of government's right to say to Newfoundland Hydro, 'You shall not charge a particular rate to Newfoundland Light and Power Company Limit~d.' if that results in a loss to. the N~wfoundland Hydro then .we with taxpayers' money must make up that loss. So then what you do is you transfer the - MR. NOLAN: Trim your Budget, that is (inaudible) Newfoundland' Light and Power (inaudible) Public Utilities learings. MR. HIE:KMAN: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKMAN: - the money has to come from - Oh • oh!

Order, please! Fortunately, we have such a competent board that they can spot extravagance and take that into account in making their decisions. Is the hon. gentleman saying that the Board of Commissione.rs of Public Utilities are not competent. fair? I would say we have the best - MR. NOLAN: (Inaudible) what they are doing (inaudible). could not care less. MR. HICKMAN: I take issue with that, Mr.Speaker. I say beyond all reasonable doubt that the Chairman of the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities in Newfoundland knows no peer in this nation for ability in that particular field, fairness and equity -none.

MR. NOLAN: MR·. SPEAKER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I think I should recognize the hon. gentleman from Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: MR. SPEAKER: MR. F. ROWE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The hon. gentleman is welcome. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Justice has had in his possession now, or his departmental official~, the report of the C.I.D. on the Elizabeth Towers fire. Could the minister indicate, Sir, to the House, you know, what is the status of this report now and what action 11376

June 23, 1978 Tape 4793 EC - 3 MR. F. ROWE: his department is taking on this particular matter? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Exactly the same as I indicated - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. HICKMAN: Am I allowed to answer a question? It is exactly and precisely the same as it was when I repo.rted to this House this time last week, that it had been reviewed by two prosecutors and that they had gone back to the investigating officers seeking a great deal more information. DR. FARRELL: Mr. Speaker, a point of privilege. MR.

SPEAKER: A point of privilege, the hon. the Minister of Industrial Development~ AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER: A point of privilege in the Question Period - is that proper? If ~he hon. gentleman brings up a point of privilege I must hear what he has to say. DR. FARRELL: Mr. Speaker, the allegations and insinuations that have been thrown across this floor at me have been absolutely disgraceful, harassing to me and my family who have suffered greatly from this.

I know I am adding my plea to the questioner and to the previous questioner, who will have a lot to answer for one of these days, to speed up the results of these so I can get this allegation and insinuation off my back. I have been fighting for my life for five years physically and for other items,like blindness,and I am not standing there to accept these types of allegations and insinuations from people of that nature. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I will hear from the hon. gentleman. I would point out that to now there is nothing sufficiently specific on which the Chair, in my opinion, could make a decision.

I will recognize the next speaker. ff the hon. the Leader of the Opposition wishes to make a submission before I finalize a decision, I will certainly hear him. 11377

June 23, 1978 MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. MR. W. ROWE: Tape 4793 EC - 4 The hon. the Leader of the There is no point of privilege from what the bon. gen~leman said. There certainly is a poin~ of privilege for me now. HR. F. ROHE: Right. MR. W. ROWE: First of all. Sir, nobody is making any accusations against the bon. minister. The questions have been as to ~hatwas the cause of the fire in 113?8

June 23, 1978 Tape No. 4794 NH- 1 MR. 1~. ROWE: Elizabeth Towers, arson or not arson? That is the question. It has nothing to do <dt.h the hon. minister because hundreds of people's lives were at stake in that fire and it is an important question, a question which should be answered, number one. Number two, Sir, the hon. minister when he.was making his so-called HR. NEARY: MR.. W. ROWE: His health had nothing to do_ with it. - point of privilege got up and talked about the previous questioner, lvhoever that might be, he was looking at me, and said I will have a lot to answer for at some point.

Now what he meant by that I do not know but perhaps he might care to explain what he meant by it or if he has any charges to lay in any way, shape or form. :1R. SPEAKER: Order, please.! I will deal first with the matter brought up by the bon. gentleman to my left in which there was a submission on privilege, In my opinion,there was no prima facie case and the matter is not one. to which the Chair can give any priority of debate. As I understand it now, the hon.

Leader of the Opp~sition has not raised a specific point of privilege as such, but has asked the hon. gentleman to my left if he would wish to clarify to whom he may have been referring when he made a statement about somebody might regret this or that. MR.. W. ROWE: And to what he has referred. l1R. NEARY: will not. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister could clear it up but he If the hon. gentleman wishes to make a brief statement with respect to the question of the hon. Leader of the Opposition, then I will hear him. DR. FARRELL: l1r.

Speaker, these allegations and insinuations which are harrassing me were first initiated by the hon. Leader of the Opposition. Those are the allegations that I was making, and I felt they 11379

June 23, 1978 Tape No, 4794 NM- 2 DR. FARRELL: were done deliberately to harass me and my family and I know they were. And it was obvious from the way the were couched and that is what I meant by those allegations. t!R. W. ROWE: That is the point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. That is the point of privilege. I cannot stand here as a member of this House of Assembly and hear another hon. member accuse me of harassing . him or his family ~~hen I a:n here trying to ask questions concerning a fire that started in Elizabeth Towers. I do not care if the hon. minister was involved or not, Sir.

It has got nothing to do with it. I have no desire to harass him or his family or anyone else, Sir. It is a scurrilous accussation against me and the hon, minister should. be asked to withdraw. I am interested in the cause of that fire which caused hundreds of people to be evacuated. Some of them on stretchers, some of them overcome by smoke, Mr. Speaker. I want to know what the cause of the fire was. I have been asking the Minister of Justice to tell us ~1hat the cause of the fire was, if he knows. He says he does not know.

The Crown Prosecutor has looked at various reports and so on and that in due course the answers will apparently be provided. It is our duty to continue to press the minister on these matters.- ~!R.. NEARY: 'ffi. W. ROWE: And we will. - I would submit, Sir Eut I can."lot stand here and be accused,as a member of this House trying to do my duty,of making scurrilous or low accusations or harassing a member or his family, Sir. I cannot do it because it impedes ::te !.n ;ny duty. A.nd I would ask the hon. minister wit~idraw forthwith. AN HO!-<. MEMBER: Hear, hear: )!R.

SPEAKER: I will now give a decision on this natter. There are obviously a number of facets or aspects ·,;hich are matters of debate of difference of opinion which hon. members may debate at their will at an appropriate time. I think the matter which comes to the Chair now is the question of attribution of motives and an hon. member may'take 11380

June 23, 1978 June No. 4794 Nl! - 3 ~!R. SPEA.'<ER: the greatest exception to what an hon. member says, the greatest exception, but may not attribute motives and I think that is the area in which we now are. I would call upon the hon. gentleman to my left to withdraw any imputation of motive toward the hon. gentleman to my right. DR. FARRELL: ~r. Speaker, I would be delighted to do so and.I do so withdraw and I 'Nould second.his suggestion that this investigation be speeded.up for everybody's benefit as·quickly as possible. MR. WHITE: SOME HON. MEMBERS : }!R. NEARY: MR. RICK!-lAN: ~.

HICKMAN: SpeAk to your buddies. Oh, oh! (Inaudible) the cover up. ORDERS OF THE DAY': Motion 9. Motion, the hon. the ~inister of Social Services to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Social Assistance Act," carried. (Bill No. 81) UR. SPEAKER: Order 7, the adjourned debate on Bill No. 50. 1.1381

June 23, 1978 Tape 4795 EC - 1 MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, as we adjourned yesterday we were discussing the various apprehensions and fears of some people regarding the intent and substance and content of Bill No. 50, the grounds for such fears, if any, and the motivation behind the bill, the numbers of people who would be affected and in what way.

We talked briefly of the history of the bill, of the five years of its making, the various commissions that were set up, the various meetings that were held, the various hearings, the input by. various concerned groups and by individuals,. and the amazing lack of interest by ~ great many people at that time who are suddenly, for some reason or other, greatly concerned,who are showing a great deal of interest in a bill in which they could very well have shown a lot of interest some time ago and perhaps have made some constructive additions to the content of the bill.

I heard only this morning on radio somebody is alleging that there will be an additional minimum $200 tax charge to the people who live in the area who will be affected by this Northeast Avalon region,wherever that is. And, Sir, this is a complete fabrication. There is no substance in fact in that figure. I have inquired beforehand and I have checked again today and nowhere can I find documentation to suggest that a $200 figure is anywhere close to being accurate.

Why the gentleman did not say $300 or $250 or $189.93 there is no explanation for, but it is just another scare tactic, another point to put bef~re the public to mislead them, to raise their fears, to confuse, to hide the real issue, and the real issue is the fact that everybody in this House and outside who have discussed this bill agree that a regional government is needed in this area. Nobody denies that at all. But people opposite and others outside seem to feel what is wrong with the bill are the - AN HON •. MEMBER: What are the water rates? 11382

June 23, 1978 Tape 4795 EC - 2 MR. DOODY: It is twenty-five cents a thousand gallons, I think. HR. DINN: For water. MR. DOODY: For water. That is the service fee. That is what it will cost. MR. D!NN: That is the user fee. ~fR. DOODY: There are administrative costs that are now incorporated into the Metro board, into the Metro region. The Metro board is now paying salaries, collecting taxes and came through this year with a $250,000 surplus. l1R. SIMMONS: Will you guarantee that twenty-five a thousand gallons will be the only charge? MR.

DOODY: At this point in time the only service that this regional government will be providing is a regional water system and' those people who use that regional water system will be paying a regional water fee. Nothing could be more simple, nothing could be more clear, nothin~ could be more reasonable, nothing could be more sensible, but hon. members opposite insist that there is some deep plot afoot to bleed the taxpayers of St. John's. AN HON. MEMBER: Who will pay the salaries? MR. DOODY: The Metro board peop~e are now receiving salaries and they come in with a surplus every year.

Now what does that have to do with the people who are living inside the incorporated communities in this region? It has absolutely nothing to do with it at all, Your Honour, and people opposite know that; people who have studied the bill know that; people who have bothered to go ask the minister and the people responsible for this bill know that. But a whole bunch of doomsayers and self-servers in this Province, particularly across the way here, are making a political issue of this, trying to make some groundwork, trying to make some inroads into this area and they care not 11383

June 23, 1978 Tape 4795 EC - 3 MR. DOODY: who they hurt or who they frighten or how much disservice they do to this region, And that, Sir, I think is pathetic, it is sad and it is pointless, because the people will not be fooled by this. You will see, Sir, and we will all see in a matter of a year. or two when this regional government gets into operation that the people in Conception South will get a water and sewerage system which they cannot afford to pay for on their own. If they had to do it themselves they would never do it. It has to be a regional system.

The people in Conception South would be the first ones to tell you, and I know - I served and represented the district for quite a while - that they cannot afford to pay the kind of taxes that are necessary to put a regional water system and a regional sewerage system in Conception Bay South. 11384

June 23, 1978 Tape 4796 EC - 1 MR. DOODY: The tax base is not there, the incomes are not there. Most of the wages earners in that area are working in the city of St. John's. They do not have an industrial base in Conception South. They cannot afford to pay it. It has to be done on a r~gional basis. The system is too big, too complicated and too expensive for that area to handle. AN HON .. MEMBER: Rear, hear! MR. DOODY: It has to be done. And the capital cost of that installation will. be borne by the Province.

The capital cost of the installation will be borne by the taxpayers of this Province, and if the taxpayers of this Province are going to contribute toward a regional water system for the St. John's area then the taxpayers of this Province have a right to be represented on that board. And the only way they can be represented on that board is by appointment by the government of the day, And the five people who will be representing the taxpayers are quite clearly set forth in this bill, five awointed peo.ple who represent the taxpayers of the Province who will be paying the capital cost of that regional system.

Now, Mr. Speaker - MR. SIMMONS: (Inaudible) legislation. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, will you please ask the hon. member for Burgeo -Bay d'Espoir to apply himself to his ~roblems and not to mine.When he gets on his feet he can pour some more vitriolic poison over the building if he wants to, that is his privilege, but I would ask him to please contain himself while I am trying to add a few words to the debate. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: (Young) Order, please! The hon. minister has requested that he be heard in silence. I ask all members both to my right and left to adhere to that request.

Order, please! 11385

June 23, 1978 Tape 4796 EC - 2 MR. DOODY: Now, Mr. Speaker, we have another little attack on Mr. O'Dea. I suppose that is something that that gentleman will have to live through now for a few weeks or a few months o~ a few years. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: (Young) A point of order has been raised. MR. DINN: They cannot listen to the truth. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Blocking my view. Blocking my view. I want to see the Speaker this morning, Mr. Speaker, a point of order. The minister again misconstrues something that I have said.

I have referred a number of times to this document as the - SOME RON. HEHBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member is making a point of order. MR. SIMMONS: I will make a point of order as soon as he and his colleagues stop jabbering over there so I can have the floor. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: I have all the time in the world. HR. SPEAKER: I must ask the bon. gentleman to withdraw that remark, referring to another hon. gentleman as 'he' in the House. MR. SU1MONS: I wish to make a point of order, Mr. Speaker. They are all ready now, Mr. Speaker. They have settled down.

I wish to make a point of ~rder. I am just waiting. The member for St. John's Centre (Mr.Murphy) is wasting the time of the minister. I have referred to this document a couple of times as the O'Dea Vacation Plan. It is no reflection on Mr. O'Dea, Hr. Speaker. If I had the opportunity to get a free ride like this I would take it too. As a matter of fact I would think less of him if he. did not take it. He would be stunned, Mr. Speaker. 1.1386

June 23, 1978 Tape 4796 EC - 3 MR. SIMMONS: No reflection on Mr. O'Dea~ but a reflection, Mr. Speaker, on the people who had put together this vacation plan and then put it under the convoluted guise of a regional government plan. Mr~ Speaker, this has nothing to do with regional governmene whatsoever and I ask the minister if he is going to quote me that he quote me correctly. And I know he is tender on this because he has been sucked into supporting it against his will. That is the word we heard in this district~ against his will, but at least he can quote me correctly, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: (Young) AN HON.

MEMBER: MR. SIMMONS: point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! What is the point of order? Listen, you might hear the I would ask the hon. member to come to the point of order, please. MR. SIMMONS: I already came, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: I feel it is not a point of order, just a matter of explanation. MR. NOLAN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NOLAN: The hon. minister. Another point of order, Mr. Speaker. Another point of order. The hon. gentleman opposite in his remarks has made a couple of statements which I feel I should bring to the attention of the House.

One, in his statements the other day, he was talking about Topsail and Island Pond being unincorporated, part of wh~ch being in Paradise and so on. What he neglected to state - and I am sure the hon. minister if he is going to give the facts would like to give all of the facts - is that there has been a petition in the office of the Minister of Municipal Affairs made up by a former minister of his own government, signed by all of the residents in there, asking for a form of 11387

June 23, 1978 Tape 4796 EC - 4 MR. NOLAN: incorporatio~ which has been totallj ignored. Secondly, in his reference to the people of Conception Bay South that they cannot afford it, maybe he would be good enough t~ explain how other communities have been serviced in this Province and how they have managed to afford it. Why are the people of Conception Bay South with whom he is allegedly so familiar, why is it that they must be the ones to bear the brunt of the expense? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NOLAN: What twisted reasoning! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I feel that is not a point of order.

It is more of a question because it is a point that was raised several days ag~. It had nothing to do with the point of order and should have been raised at that time. MR. DOODY: Thank you. The bon. minister. j May I continue, Your Honour? MR. DINN: You are going to have your hands full. Four million bucks for water and sewer in that area. }1R. DOODY: Now if the bon. the member for Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan) feels that.the people in Conception South should pay the total cost of that water and sewerage installation that is planned for that area then fine, that is a 11388

June 23, 1978 Tape No. 4797 NH - 1 MR. DOODY: commitment that he may feel that he is entitled to make on behalf of the people of that area. MR. NOLAN: HR. SPEAKER: MR. NOLAN: A poirit of order, Hr. Speaker. A point of order has been made. The Minister of Municipal Affairs. is making threatening gestures across the way. Now if he wants to say something or make a charge,let him do it publicly. !·!R. DINN: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. The hon. member made reference to what is the regional system, or what. has it got to do with Conception Bay South.

The fact of the matter is that last year, through the pleading of the people in Conception Bay South, $2 million was spent on water and sewer, another $1.6 so that they could be connected to the regional system,and this year $2 million for more water and sewer. So the hon. member will have to answer to his constituents as to why we spend dollars and why we connect them to regional systems, not to me. And that is what I said to the hon. member and I will say it again, louder sometime. MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: MR. NOLAN: I mean I look upon that - l1R. SPEAKER: Is this a point of order?

MR. NOLAN: - as a sort of threat not only to me but also to the people of Conception Bay South and I ask for a withdrawal. Is this a way for a minister to behave? MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. If that is a threat to the people of Conception Bay South, if threatening them with water and sewer is a threat then - :-!R. NOLAN: Do not use the people of Conception Bay South for this plan that you are bringing in, or a bill you are bringing in. Do not try it. 11389.

J\Ule 23, 1978 Tape No, 4797 NH - 2 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I feel that hon. members are raising points of order and more or less getting into a debate to interrupt the hon. minister. A point of order that has been raised. I would ask them in future if they would raise a point of order please make it to the point, and be sure it is a ,point of order instead of interrupting the hon. minister. The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. DOODY: Thank you, Sir. It is quite apparent l what the object of the exercise is.

The point I was making, Sir, is that the people in Conception Bay South desperately need a water and sewerage system. I do not think that anybody will deny that.· Certainly nobody in Conception Bay South denied it. The basic purpose and point in their accepting incorporation at all 1vas a commitment by the government of the day to provide a water and sewerage system for the area, a commitment which was not kept and which is now being honoured.

And the only way that it can be done, as I said, is through a regional system, a system that will serve not only Conception Bay South but various other co~ties in this part of the Province. And those people who use that facility will be expected to pay a service charge and I think the amount that the minister mentioned was twenty-five cents a thousand gallons.

Those people who ~1ant to use that system will be entitled to do so and they will be asked to pay that amount of money which will defray the operating costs, the maintenance costs of the system, not an unreasonable request, a quite reasonable, sensible, logical request and that has to be adminislered by somebody. If St. John's uses part of that system, if New Town uses part of that system, if ~fo\Ult Pearl uses part of that system, Conception Bay South uses part of that system, then obviously there has to be a common denominator somewhere, there has to 11390

June 23, 1978 Tape No. 4797 mr - 3 }m. DOODY: be an organization, there has to be an administration. And this particular point and purpose of this bill is to put into affect that sort of organization, that sort of administration. Maybe bon. members opposite would like to see a community or a regional water system that administers itself, looks after itself, that deteriorates on its own, that breaks down and nobody looks after - pointless, purposeless, pathetic. Mr. Speaker, it has been said opposite that the proposed organization ·is an expanded metro board. Well that is partially true.

This is an expanded and improved metro board. It is improved in many directions. It gives more scope and more power to the board, which in this effect is now a council with the majority of its members elected by the people. And I think it is a big step forward in the supplying of regional services. The regional water system is now in place.

But I look forward, down the road, to other services that will be provided by this regional government, I may be overly optimistic and I may be expecting too much, but I ~hink the time is rapidly approaching when we are going to have to look at a regional fire service, fire department. for this region. How long can we expect a municipality the size of Mount Pearl - 11391

June 23, 1978, Tape 4798, Page 1 -- apb MR. DOODY: New Town to exist without some sort of fire service, fire department, fire protection. And we look at that New Town, Mount Pearl area with the same sort of view that we look at Conception. South, the tax base is not there. The people in Mount Pearl are now. paying a higher taxes than ·they are paying in Grand Falls or Gander. They are still running at deficit I think. There is a limit to the amount of taxation that they can endure on the limited tax base that they have. Once again, it is a bedroom community, it does not have··.a tax base of its own.

The people who live in that area work.elsewhere in many cases, in most cases,but they need services and they should have .. services and they will get services through this St. John's or Northeast - Avalon Urabn Region Council. The references to taxation without representation are misleading, to be very charitable about it. The representation, as I just pointed out·, on behalf of the taxpayers of the Province will be five appointed people, the representation for the people in the area, at this.point, will be ten elected people.

Surely, Sir, if that can be construed as taxation without representation then somebody must have read the bill very, very poorly or else they are deliberately twisting and turning the motives and the content of this bill just to serve some purpose other than the needs of the people in this area. There is no intent at all to usurp the power of the councils that are now in position and place in this area.

As was made abundantly clear, those councils that have sat down with the minister and his officials have taken .the bill under study, looked at it carefully and many of them have shared the view of the minister and o£ others who have bothered to·study the bill that there is no intent to take power away from.any of the 11392

June 23, 1978, Tape 4798, Page 2 -- apb MR. DOODY: elected councils. There is no more power to that effect in this particular bill than there is in the City of St. John's Act, the City of Corner Brook Act, the Local Government Act. And if hon. members want to look at and review these particular bills, to change them in some way or other,then that can certainly be done. if there is something wrong with these bills.

But if there is something wrong with this bill then there is something wrong with the whole municipal system in the Province of Newfoundland and all the bills that govern them and perhaps they should all be looked at and all changed. But to take this one in isolation and to accuse the minister and the government and everybody connected with it of deliberately trying to undermine and take over the powers of the selected bodies in this area is malicious, it is not so, it is incorrect, it is unnecessary and it does not serve the area or the people in the area.

The purpose of this bill, as has been stated quite clearly, is to provide regional services on a regional basis governed by a regional council the majority of whom are elected at this time and hopefully in a year or two or three or four, whenever it falls into place, the entire regional council will be elected. There are uni·ncorpora ted . areas, unincorporated areas in this particular part of the Province, Sir, quite a few unincorporated areas who have no opportunity and no hope to get any services at all under the present setup, under the present system or.present lack of system.

The only way they can hope to get a regional system is through a regional government. And if they avail of the services of that regional government they will pay a service fee. In this particular case, the first service that will be available. is the water and sewerage system. If they 11393

June 23, 1978, Tape 4798, Page 3 - apb MR. DOODY: take advantage of the opportunity to hook on to that system, then they wll pay a service fee for it. The Metro Board no administers various areas, sections of this unincorporated area and they charge various fees for garbage collection and other such. services. That same sort of system will be in effect under the regional government. Those areas that are incOrporated and have their own taxes, their own tax system and their own tax base will continue to collect their own taxes and the regional government will not interfer or add taxes.

There will be no double taxation. This is another fallacy, another misuse of the privileges of speech, the opportunity of free speech to twist things into what they are not. This is not a double. taxation bill, Sir. There is 11394

June 23, 1978 Tape 4799 (Morning) Mr. Doody: no concept of double taxation, no intent of double taxation. It is completely - MR. "MURPHY: Speak the truth. MR. DINN: MR. DOODY: Montreal and Toronto is harassing you. There is a great deal of difference between freedom and licence I think somebody once said. MR; MURPHY: Legality and morality. MR; .DOODY: Maybe we should look at what the affects of PK - 1 the bi 11 might be on some. of the peop 1 e who are concerned.

Are the people in tbe unincorporated areas who.will be serviced by this particular bill, by this particular regional council ~oing to be a great deal worse off in terms of taxation than they were under the Metro Board? The answer is obviously, no. It has been appointed out earlier, and I think, it is a very important thing to remember that Metro Board, a much maligned Metro Board, the temporary vacation plan of Mr. O'Dea has operated so efficiently and so effectively as to serve the people (jjf that area and to provide services at a fee, at a cost a great deal less than in the incorporated areas in the same

section of the Province. I point particularly to the garbage collection rates, it cost about $6 per capita to collect garbage in the Metro region as against.~bout $16 in St. John's. And that sort of efficiency is passed along through the St. John's Regional Council and I have no reason to believe that it will not since the same people Mr. O'Dea and his group will ·be involved; I see absolutely no reason why these same savings cannot be passed along to the Urban Region Council. And the same sort of efficiencies will be delivered to the people in this area.

Sir, would not be at all surprised to the people in. the City of St. John's-, to the people in Mount Pearl, the people in other areas look very closely at this regional government operation in the next few years, and I shou 1 d not at a 11 surprised, Sir, if quite.a few questions were asked of the efficiencies of the local governments and as they compare to the regional government. And 11395

June 23, 1978 Tape 4799 (Night) PK - 2 Mr. Doody: think that when the City of St. John's gets an opportunity,as hope it will,. to change its taxation system that the regional government and the city and the towns involved will get closer and closer together. I do not know if that will happen that is entirely up to the people in the area. But what I am saying is that this regional government is necessary. It has to be put in place. The people who need services will have services. There will be municipal government for those people who have none.

There will be services for those people who have none, and there will be fees, service·fees from those people who take these services and who need the services. Sir, I have absolutely no hesitation in supporting this bill. It is a good concept. It is a concept that everybody agrees with. The fact that some members opposite do not like the minister has very little to do with the content of the bill, and that certainly is not influencing me. know that everybody here has admitted and said, somewhat reluctantly, that they favour the concept of regional government. And I have absolutely no hesitation in supporting it.

And I am delighted to see it come before the House at long last and it should have been in here several years ago. Thank you, Sir. SOME HON; MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (_MR. YOUNG) DR. H. KITCHEN: Hear, hear! The hon. member for St. John's West. Mr. Speaker, it is hard to begin a speech on Bill 50 and to compress into forty-five minutes what has to be said on Bill 50 because I suppose there is never a bill presented the House of Assembly that was more sloppily drafted with less clarity of purpose, it·is a.lmost impossible to figure out just what is being gotten at in this bill. It is unclear.

There is nothing specified. It is like signing a blank cheque to the minister. It is like the House saying to the minister, do something, whatever it is we do not know, but go ahead. It is a vote of trust and confidence, suppose, because we do not know what we are getting ourselves into. Nobody knows that, because it is not said in the bill. And every time 11396

June 23, 1978 Tape 4799 (Night) PK - 3 DR. H. ·KITCHEN: we go to push it is not going -to increase taxes. it is not going to do anything they say. But let us try to piece together some of tlie things that are in this bill. Before doing so I want to say that this has.to be looked at in the whole context of munic.ipal government in this Province. And in the "1139?

June 23,1978 Tape No. 4800 NM - 1 DR •. KITCHEN: city of St. John's. We have had a municipal government here now for ninety years. Ninety years where the people have been building up their services, their water services, their streets, building up the assets of the city through taxes and have done a fair job of it, paid for a lot of it. Other. municipalities in the area have come later and have tried to do the same thing and have done the same thing and we have other areas which have persistently not wished to be incorporated. The Province has not much of a history with respect to municipal government.

We are not Nova Scotia. We are not Ontario. Where in Nova Scotia everybody is in a municipality of some sort and they are accustomed to taxes. This Province has feared the property tax·. It is part of our structure of our whole fibre of being to fear property taxes and our way of life.in this Province, our way of life where we have not had these full time jobs but where a person has had to try to get a few dollars where he could in a variety of ways keeping down the overhead, keeping down the taxes has been very, very important and we have traditionally and for a very good reason, been afraid of property taxes.

We do not want property taxes in this Province. And the less property tax the better because it means in rural Newfoundland and we are talking about rural Newfoundland here as well as urban Newfoundland, in this bill, I think we are, although the boundaries are·not specified, we are never quite sure what we are talking about here because· the boundaries are not specified. The property tax is something that you have to meet every year. Every year you have to come up with so much money for property tax and to a person without a job that poses hazards. You may lose your house if you cannot P"Y your ;>roperty 11398·

June 23,1978 Tape No. 4800 NH - 2 DR. KITCHEN: tax. This is part of the i~ate fear that has gone down through generations and centuries of people living in this Province. It is the reason why we did not join Canada in 1867. It is ·the reason many, many people in this region, this area we are talking about, did not vote for Confederation, for responsible government, the fear of paying property taxes, and for very good reason. We do not want to pay property taxes. We do not want to lose our land and lose our houses because of the 'fear of paying for property tax. There iA no tradition.

And so we have to be very careful, Mr. Speaker, very, very careful in introducing any system of government which has inate in it' even though. it is not specified, and the government has been verv careful not to mention taxation in this at all, but the fear is there and the reality is there. Because we are not going to have any of those grand services that the former speaker was mentioning unless somebody is going to pay for them and the method of paying I guarantee you is going to be the property tax. And for anyone to say that it is not going to cost anybody anything iA to talk nonsense.

SQ}lE HON. !1EMBERS: DR. KITCHEN: this question of - !!R. SIMMONS: DR. KITCHEN: Hear, hear! Now let me have another word about They are good at deceiving the House. - of this question of where did it come frcm? This whole thing was conceived in sin. Let us look at the Whelan Commission, the silly commission. I will say it is silly because the same chairman, he has brought in three reports about governing this Province. Ile brought in a report to the Board of Regents of Memorial University and what was his ·proposal? We need vice-presidents, another tier of government at the university level.

And what did this do?. It took the 11399

June 23,1978 Tape No. 4800 NM - 3 DR. KITCHEN: administration of the univeristy clear of the students. It put in another level. It brought people away from what had to be done. It has effectively prevented that university from going ahead in the way they should have gone. And it is the same recommendation for another tier·of government. The same gentleman recommended to this government that they restructure the civil service, the same person.

And so they restructured the civil service and they put in all sorts of commissions and so on but the effect is that the top decision makers in this government are removed from the people they serve. Every time you put in a level of government, whether it be in a university or in a Province, civil service, you are removing the ultimate decision makers one step further from the people who have to be served. And that is why this particular government is so hard hearted with people who are in trouble, social assistance people and so on. They do not even listen because the decision makers are not in

June 22, 1978 Tape 4801 (Night) EC - 1 DR. KITCHEN: contact with the people or with their workers. The ministers themselves are not entirely. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! DR. KITCHEN: And so we have the same person now a few years ago w~iting - My Lord! He must have been paid by the word! - 600 or 700 pages on ~unicipal government and what he did in effect was - and how a person from New Brunswick can come in here and tell us what we have t~ do without really paying attention to our %raditions in this Province, our fear of taxation and our desire to get on with it ourselves, is ridiculous. So what we have, Mr.

Speaker, is a commission which is not really a study of municipal government in this Province - it is a whole bunch of words that no one can really read and understand because the person who wrote them did not understand what he was really writing about. So that is what I mean by being conceived in sin. The whole idea that is coming up is bad. And then we appoint a commission and a regional group here - and I am not knocking the individuals here very much, but there are no regional people here really, I think. Who was on this report now? If I remember, it was - AN HON. MEMBER: Henry, Morgan and Andrews.

DR~ KITCHEN: Henry, Morgan and Andrews, right, three great people who understand how it is in the rural areas in the metro region, who know all about it. Mr. Chairman, I think that what has happened here is that the government have been carried away with a series of recom~endations ~hat in many cases have very little relevance t6 the problems that we are facing. Now what are these problems? There are problems here and there are things about regional government. There is a whole mixture and a hodge-podge. Now what is needed ·in this area? I believe what is needed in this area is 11401

June 23, 1978 Tape 4801 (Night) EC - 2 DR. KITCHEN: some co-ordinated planning. There can be no doubt that there has to be some co-ordinated planning. Now whether the Metro Board can do that or not I do not know or whether the regional government can do that I do not know or whether they will do that I do not know. One of tlie things that we have been talking about is that we are going to have some co-ordinated water - water authority. Well, why do we not set up a water authority for the region? And why do we not put it under the Public Utilities Board and let it be done that way?

We do not need the trappings of an elephant to put a water authority in. We do not need that at aLl. What has happened is that we have gone hog wild on suggestions from other places. We have 500,000 or 600,000 ~eople in this Province and we are bringing in a system of government which they use in Ontario basically. It is not necessary to have an elaborate system of government in a small province like this. There are certain functions that have to be done and have to be done well. One is planning.

We have to stop this helter-skelter development in this area where a developer can go to a small municipal council and entice them to do various things with development and where we have to stop this flight from the city. The city of St. John's papulation is declining. People are leaving the city to go and get cheap land somewhere else and then they are going to expect the people who remain in the city to pay for them when they move somewhere else. Now this has got to stop. Now what I want to get .into mostly though, there are three main points that I would like to make and I will not have time to make them all.

I wanted to have some say wi~h respect to the control. A number of people on our side have mentioned ~he serious questions of control. This business of giving the Minister of Municipal Affairs a blank cheque to do as he wishes with this region, that is a very serious one. Perhaps I might get a chance to 11402

June 23, 1978 Tape 4801 (Night) EC - 3 DR. KITCHEN: speak on that one later on. There are a number of points that I would like to make that have not been made yet on this. But what I want to do today is to get into the question of finances, because that is the crux of the whole matter. How much is it going to cost us? How much is it going to cost the citizen in St. John's? How mtich is it going to cost the citizen in an unincorporated area? How much is it going to cost the citizen in Mount Pearl? - because I guarantee you this, it is going to cost him a lot of money.

And no matter what the minister has said so far and the other members opposite, this has got to cost money. Just let us look at the possibilities here why it will cost money. Section (3): "The purposes of this Act is to provide a framework for regional government in order to provide municipal services. of a regional nature." And you cannot provide municipal services of a regional nature unless it is going to cost money. It is there. It is going to cost money, and if it costs money it is going to have to be paid for.

Someone is going to have to pay for it, it is either the government, Ottawa, going in the hole to borrow it or else the citizens are going to have to pay for it. 11403

June 23,1978 Tape i~o •. 4302 t\ll-1 ilR. KITCaEN: I looked at

Section 8 ,and

Section 8 says "The region is to be governed for the purposes of this act by the Northeast Avalon regional council which is to be a corporation " and operating that,_ these fifteen people with a paid chairman and all that sort of thing, that is going to cost a fair amount of money. They do not work for nothing, they are going to cost money and tl~t money is going to have to be raised .in taxes there is no quastion about that •. It is co good to say that these people are going to ">Jork and they are going to work for nothing. It has already been announced that they are going to be full time paid people. Then

Section 12 talks about elections. You cannot run an election unleGs it costs money and the election procedure here is quite elaborate. It is goi+!g to cost money. It is going to cost money for the by-election. and it ·is going to cost the people of that area money. How much is it going to cost? I do not know how much it is going to cost. They will not tell us anything auout that. There is no budget table with this but there should be •. ·We should know ~:hat the facts are about the projections for costs and then we can decide what we are goi· .. g to do about it.but there is nothing here. By-elections are gou•g to cost tloney.

Section 19 deals with appeals and someone who feels that i1e has not been elected properly ana all this.- that is going to cost us money. C:veryti1ing in the act pretty well is goir.g to cost money.

Section 26 - I just noted a few i1ere, ·•every meet inc; is open to the public and is a privileged meeting!' \~e are going to have to provide facilities. for the public to go to the meeting. That is goirig to cost a few bucks too, a few ci.airs and a few tables, small stuff but it is going to cost money.

Section 28 - "The titl.e of all property and assets wnich the board has invested in regional council. kegional council is charged with and assumes all t;1e obligations and ·the liabilities .to the ·i·Ietro Board. " It is going to cost money. This re~ional council is not going to operate on ~~ater it is going to operate on cash and that cash is going to come from the people .. in the ·area.

Section 29 -''All municipal plans) 11404

June 23,1973 Tape i-lo. 4602 t.H-2 JR.KITCiiZ~~: development scheraes anti so on are to remain in effect." ,.;m~ veting and approving and getting on with these plans is going to cost money to. ~~ybe it is not going to cost more than presently out it is going to cost money, it is going to cost money. 3·ection 30 - now here is the one "The powers may by order of the Lieutenant Governor pres.cribe powere in respect of tile operation and construction of regional water systems." That is going to cost money, regional sewerage disposal systems, that is going to cost momey, regional solid waste disposal sites.

Reference has been made to the fact that 1~e are going to have a new system of getting rid of our solid waster, that is going to cost'·cash. Improved services are going to cost cash. \Ve are not saying that the services are not going to be improved but we are saying it is going to cost and let no one think that it is not going to cost.

The operation of regional public transpor,tation systems is going to cost. \ve know that the bus system in this city presently cost money.- to expand, to operate a regional public transportation is gail'S to cost coney , it is going to cast a lot of money and if the government are not prepared - they canuot say they are going to have it on the one hand and not going to have it on the ot!.er. The intent seems to me to have regional transportation and that is going to cost cash.

The other one regional planning - very necessary is going to cost money if it is goi"g to be done properly and I submit that it is not being done properly because the people are not being involved very h1.uch in the planning, .lvhatever the Chairman of lletro 3oard wants is tile planning pretty well. It has to be planning and if people i1ave to be represented it is going to cost money. Fire protection.

Reference has been made that we are going to do away with the voluntary fire department in. the various areas and we are goi<lg to put in a fullfledged fire system \.,:,ere everybody gets paid to run a fire department· in the •.vi1ole 1/ortlteast Avalon area. Fair e11ough it caybe good but let no. one think that this is not goi11g to cost a horrendous sum of money and any other facilities 11405

June 2,1978 Tape No. 4802 AH-3 DN.. KITCilliN: or services of a regional nature. Now we do not know what that is it is not specified but they are going to cost money and they are going to cost a great deal of money and for anyone to say that it is going to be by .user, the user pays, it is not answering the question because I want to know how much is the user going to ?ay. I want to know how much the taxation is going to be.

Section 32 - "to acquire by agreenent any of the properties in th~ municipality II some of that is JOing to cost money, this acquiring of the property as a municipality is going to cost money.

Section ·33 - 11406

June 23, 1978 Tape No. 4803 NH - 1 DR. KITCHEN: the method of acquiring property, where things have to be done in a certain way, that method is going to cost money.

Section 35, where the regional council has all the powers of a council of a municipality where areas are unincorporated. That is going to cost money to do in unorganized areas, that io going to cost money.

Section 37, in addition to the powers set out the regional council may impose upon the residents of a designated serviced area taxes and the imposition of taxes. That is going to cost money, even imposing taxes and collecting them. Water and sewerage systems, as we go down through this whole thing here all we can see is cash, cash, cash. It is going to cost money and horrendous sums of money. The whole question of fire fighting is there. Sections 45 - 53, this is going to cost cash. It may be properly so but it is going to cost money. 55 - 56, parks, the acquisition of parks, the establishment of parks.

This is going to cost money. The recreation in this area is not the best. There are a lot of improvements that have to be made and if the regional council is charges Hith bringing in recreation for this .rhole area then that is going to cost a fair amount of money. It is going to be taxation. And so on it goes. We can go on. I am going to skip a lot of this nm~.

But I think the main point has been made, that this whole bill has a very elaborate, very great money pacl~ge attached to it which has not been specified by the minister, has not been specified by the government or by any of the speakers opposite and they should have been specified. 11407

June 23, 1978 Tape No. 4803 !·ll1 - 2 DR. KITCHEN: The bureaucracy has been referred to by another speaker on this side. He mentioned the various people uho are going to be hired and so- on. There is no intention that this thing is to be self operating, as I read the bill. It is going to be a very expensivE operation, tdth a very elaborate bureaucracy and this bureaucracy is going to cost money.. It has to cost money unless it is to do anything •. So let nobody think and let nobody be deceived, let nobody in the· region be deceived, this bill is ROing to cost money and a lot_ of money.

And the question I would like to hear-from the minister and from the government speakers, is how much is it goin~ to cost. Surely there have been some studies. Surely you know you have done some projections as to the cost of implementing this bill, how much is it going to cost? How much? All I can say is it is going to cost a great deal.

Looking at the bill I know it is going to cost millions and millions and millions of dollars, that is if they are going to do anything, and they say they will because the powers are there, and the more functions, the more personnel, the more elaborate the structure, the more eXpensive it is going to be. I believe that the minister should table the budget for the first year of the operation of this bill. Surely he has got some figures. He should put it on the table. He should ·do it for the first five years so we have some projections as to what we are getting into here.

Then we can decide whether that is tvhat we want to buy. Does the House of Assenbly ~tant to buy this package? This is really what the minister is asking, which he is putting forward here. But we have not had the package. We do not know the cost of it and he has the obligation to put the cost of this bill before this House of Assembly. We will not buy a pig in a poke. l~e are not going to do that. He should table the budget. He should table the projections, the staff, 11408

June 23, 1978 Tape No. 4803 NM- 3 DR. KITCHEN: the cost of the water, the cost of the fire protection, the cost of the parks, the whole cost of what they plan to do should be here so that we know - he should come clean with us. l~e will not give him a blank cheque. Now let me talk a bit about double taxation because there is double taxation in this bill. It is at least what I consider-double taxation is there. The city of St. John's, the city itself, has a reasonable level of public services right now. The 90,000 people who live here have a reasonable level of public services. We have water. We have some parks.

We have streets. lve have sewer. The people in this town, the city, have been paying taxes for years and years and years and they have built up 11409

June 23, 1978 Tape 4804 PK - 1 Or. Kitchen: an enormous amount of assets, network in the city. The city has been behaving responsibly for a number of years, it has built up its assets, and it has taxed its people, the people who are here pay taxes to maintain and to keep up these services. That is good. Some people to avoid taxes have left the city and that is there right to leave the city and to settle in the neighbouring areas.

Some people never lived in the city, they were always in the rural areas nearby for hundreds of years, and they had their own ways of looking after their water and their waste d~sposal, and it was not that expensive. And a lot of people have installed septic tanks, and they have installed other things, and they have been reasonably well satisfied. But when the flight from the city took place, when city folk left the city to avoid taxes, in some cases, and settled in these rural areas surrounding they prevented what the people who had there, the interferred with the services that were there· by pollution.

Now then these same people who fled now they want the same services as the city wants, as the vity has developed. And the plan that has come from the government here, the plan is that the people in the city now are to help pay the taxes for the people who have fled into the surrounding area, the city folk who have left and now the people who stayed in the city paying taxes all the while are going to have to pick up the tab, help pick up the tab for the people who left. I do not think that is fair. That is double taxation. People 1-1ho have been here have been paid.

They should also have to pay for people who have been trying to dodge taxes. I do not.think that is fair. I think .that is unfair. And I believe that is the basis of what the City Council is saying to you. They do not tiJink that is fair. Hhere we have to pay now for other people to have the services which we enjoy largely because of the tax structure in this city. It is being paid for by the citizens of the city and that is fair enough, but 1-1e should not pay for people who have been avoiding taxes.

I am talking largely about people l'lho have left the city, we are not rural folk who have rural occupations, but city folk who have left to avoid taxes. :1.1410

June 23, 1978 Tape 4804 PK - 2 Dr. Kitchen: I want to talk a bit about compensation too now, because there is double taxation. There is no boubt that the people of this city and other areas where they have been building up their municipal assets or their personal assets from the point of view of water and sewer and so on that they wi 11 have to pay more. I ~1ant to say a \"lord now about compensation because the member for St. John's East (Mr. 11arshall} said that it is fair for people not to be compensated. I mention that the City of St.

John's has huilt up assets with a net worth, there is a networth of the City of St. John's has in Windsor Lake, in that whole water supply, the net worth. There is a net worth for us in the public transportation system that has been built up over the years. There is a net worth in Bowring Park, the park was given, but look at the investment that the dty has put into these parks over the years, nuturing it, caring for it, bringing it .along the city people have spent money on it.

Now then if this is to become a regional asset taken over it would appear to me that compensation of some kind should certainly be considered. There are many other things to be talked about as well. And it is very difficult when any amalgamation of this type takes place to be fair to people. ~!hen two school boards come together as they came together a few years ago when the integrated boards were set up. It was pretty hard to think about this question of compensation, one denomination had their school board paid off, the other did not, they come together.

Who pays?· It is a hard question to solve. do not think it should be dismissed out of hand. I think it should be thought carefully through and rather than dismiss on principal. Nobody likes to pay taxes; And what the member for St. John's East was saying was that it is the same people, we just take it from the City Council and give it to the region - it is just a different board administering for the same people but it is not the same people. 1141:1

June 23, 1978 Tape 4805 EC - 1 DR. KITCHEN: The regional council will serve a large area. The city council serves a smaller area. It is almost the same thing as if we took Labrador and gave it to Quebec and said, 'Okay, boys, you have it. The same people are living in Labrador as did before. ~e do not want any compensation.' It is the same thing as taking the assets of the city of St. John's and turning it over to a wider authority. It is exactly the same thing. And we should not put up with that, this question of the spurious arguments raised across the way. I think it is robbery. It is robbery.

I want to read.a little bit now from the Henley Commission. We do that. Everybody reads a little bit from that - it is sort of a spiritual exercise. Page 265 shows in a table what the Province has contributed - what the Province contributes by •ay of revenue and what the locally raised revenue is for a number of municipalities in the area. For example in Holyrood in the year this was done 45 per cent of Holyrood's revenue -municipality of Holyrood - was raised locally and 55 per cent was put in by the Province. That is good.

The Metro Board raised 12 per cent of their revenue and 88 per cent came from the Province - a very profitable organization; 67 per cent for Mount Pearl, local - 33 per cent provincial, and we go on; St. John's, 99 per cent lo~al - 1 per cent provincial. Al1 HON. MEHBER: (Ina ud ib le) DR. KITCHEN: Well, it does not include it for any of them as far as police protection is concerned because the police protection is not paid by the municipalities anyway.

I believe what we are doing here, we have a city which pays its own way, which has paid its own way, and now we are being asked to pay the way for everybody else and I think that is highway robbery. 11412

June 23, 1978 Tape 4805 EC - 2 DR. KIT CHEN: Highway robbery - that is what it is, and the people of St. John's should buck this bill because the taxes in this city are going to rise. And they are going to rise because other people who have been fleeing the city to avoid taxes are going to continue to avoid taxes - like the hon. minister, people who do not live in the city. They do not want to live in the city. That is their right not to live in the city, but it is not their right to expect the people who live in the city to put their water and sewer in for them. That is not fair.

Now let me have a few words about the taxation, because one of the weaknesses in this bill is that the question of taxation has not been adequately dealt with. I believe that attached to this bill or a supplement to it or a companion bill there should be adequate dealings with the question of taxation. How much will our taxes go up within the c~ty! How much will they go up outside the city? And they are going to go up. As services are provided they are going to go up. They have to go up. And it is just as well to face facts, taxes are going to go up. Let me read again from page 169.

It says here that the per capita tax in Holyrood is $9.41; the per capita tax in Petty Harbour is $4.00; Pouch Cove, $5.00. When this Metro Board comes in I can guarantee you that the per capita tax in Pouch Cove is going to be higher than $5.15 a year. MR. J. CARTER: It has riothing to do with it. That is not the situation today. HR. STRACHAN: Okay, what cost? DR. KITCHEN: The taxation rate in this area is going to rise and people who have not been p~ying taxes at any great level are going to have to be paying taxes both within the city and outside the city. The taxes are going to rise to pay for these.

Now I am not arguing that they 11413

June 23, 1978 Tape 4805 EC - 3 DR. KITCHEN: should not rise or that the services should not be provided, but what the minister has got to do is level. How much are the taxes going to go up if these things which he w~nts to bring in are going to be brought in. We have to be fair about it. We have to know what we are buying and how much it is going to cost and perhaps we will ~ot buy it if it costs too much. The people have to be told the truth whatever the truth is. There is going to be a gi~antic increase in taxes, whether it is the services, the structure, everything is going to take more. 1~414

June 23rd., 1978 Tape 4806 Dl.f - DR. KITCHEN: I believe that this bill needs a taxation section. All references to taxes have been omitted ivrtually. There is a hodge podge of taxes in this region too various taxes are being levied. Perhaps the bill should addressed itself to that or that. question should be discussed here. You cannot talk services and structure without talking costs and that cost

section should be dealt with as well. The Henley report - half the Henley report talks about taxes half of it. This bill was based on the Henley report in part. There is hardly any mention of taxes in the bill at all even though this report - half of its half one hundred and forty-two pages dealing with the whole taxation structure and some reference should be made to that in the bill instead of not mentioning it. Let me read from the Whelan report the thing that .this is based on really. Let me look at page 18 of the Whelan report - the Whelan report has a recommendation recommendation 72.

After considerable investigation of all available fiscal options and in the light of Newfoundland's economic circumstances and so and so forth. We purpose that imposition of real property taxation is being required by law in all developed municipalities. That is what the report that was given to this government recommended real'property taxes would be the basis of the municipal taxation in this Province. That is what they recommended. Let me see t~hat the Henley report says page 167 - I hope I have these references right - you can never be sure when you have a lot .of them copied down. A."! RON • !!EMBER: DR.

KITCHEN: Yes, the Henley report talks about the existing tax structure. The present system of municipal taxation in the region represents an amalgamation of poorly co-ordinated divers and inappropriate array of tax spaces. Not only does the method of revenue in fact vary from region to region municipality and so on but the statutory authority to tax varies. Clearly if the problems of taxation for the St. John's urban region are to be tackled from a regional viewpoint there must be at least some rationalization of the existing structure.

This is what Henley has said and it makes sense - there has to be some rationalization of· the structure of taxation.The commission has concluded that the present 11415

June 23,1978 Tape 4806 DW - 2 DR. KITCHEN: hodge-podge of taxing sources is inappropriate as a means for future revenue generation within ~the region - reform is certainly required. This question of municipal tax reform which has been mentioned by the Whelan Commission is onerof its strong points in my view . not what it recommends but there has to be reform and also paid attention to by the Henley report has not been addressed in this bill.

You cannot provide services in my view unless at. the same time you. taCkle this question of tax reform, municipal tax reform because that is the question that is in everybody's mind is what is the tax going to be. How is it going to be taxed? And we have to face it. It is on us to face the problem of taxation. It is proper. It is proper to face it. Put it on the table, put it all out on the table we are not foolish. The people of Newfoundland are not foolish. If we need regional services - what is your plan for paying for these services? Hhat is your plan? Let us test. There is only three sections.

Only three sections in this act that deals with taxes at all. Let me just look at them for a minute; 34 (b) "Where an order is made under

section 30 the regional council subjects the approval of the minister may levy user charges on the municipality for regional services provided to it by the regional council. That is one thing that is there. Then on

Section 35 the regional council has all the powers of the council of a municipality under Local Government Act in those areas of the region and not under the jurisdiction of a municipality and that act applies to these areas. So that is a taxing power I think that is inherent in the Local Government Act of 1972 that the ·regional council has over the unincorporated areas. And then it goes on in

section 37 and that is the only mention that is made. In addition to the powers set out in

section 35 the regional council may impose :upon the residents of a designated service area taxes and other charges in accordance with the Local Government Act and may vary such taxes and charges as between different designated service areas. Now that is all I can find about taxation in this bill. The whole question of taxation is not handled in the bill. He are being 11416

June 23, 1978 Tape No. 4807 NM- 1 DR. KITCHEN: asked to buy a pig in the poke and we cannot do it. The other point is this, what about the Province? What is the Province going to do? We are talking about property taxation and taxation. But what is the Province going to do by way of grant structure? The lfuelan Report recommends changes in the grant structure? Page 242 of the Whelan Report. For these reasons vre recommend the abolition of the entire system of provincial grants which has been developed over the years as a response to the very special needs of Newfoundland communities.

And they go ahead and they recommend this. Instead they recommend a three part provincial support programme with the followin~ compon~1ts. First, a general municipal assistance grant, second, a municipal tax incentive grant, and third, a municipal capital projects grant. They say, "Do away with this hodge podge of special grants and so on and let us have a government policy· with respect to grants of municipalities." Let us go on, "The recommended general municipal assistance grant:" that is the first one.

They have three elements in that, an annual oer capita allocation scaled directly to the population size of each community, per capital allocation. Then thev go on and say, "An annual per capita allocation varying from $1 to $5 and bearing a direct relationship with the level of social assistance payments per capita disbursed to municipalities. In other words, poorer areas get more grant.

And third, "A final annual per capita. allotment ranging from $3 to $4.50 and scaled directly to the local road mileage over which each municipality has responsiblity." So that is basically their general municipal assistance grant, three components, a general per capita component, another per capita component based on - imbursely >dth the ability of the peonle to and something having to do with 11417

June 23, 1978 Tape No. 4807 NH - Z DR. KITCHEN: the roAd level. Now that is the first grant. And then they go on and recommend a municioal tax incentive grant. '~e Province should next consider a second or a matching grant under which it would pay to each local authority an amount equivalent to the estimated yield of its real property tax a matching grant." That is the second thing they are after, a municipal tax incentive grant. The more you fellows come up 1-rith the· more the Province will put in. The more the municipality raises, the more the Province will put in.

That is the second general grant, a municipal capital projects grant which they are suggesting the municipality should basicly make their case and the government buys whatever they want of it. Now this is the Henley Commission did not do much other than to recommend what the Whelan Ccmmission recommended.

In fact what they did basically was to quote the Whelan Commission and they recommended that the recommendations of the Whelan Commission respecting the abolition of the existing provincial branch structure and the institution of a new programme of assistance based on general municipal assistance grants, municipal tax incentive grant and the municipal capital projects grant be adopted as the basis of provincial support to the individual municipalities in the St. John's urban region.

So the whole question of finances resolves itself in this, that the recommendations from the consultants that were set up on this regional government were these, that the question of taxes be looked into and that a more rationalized system cf taxation be brought in and secondly that the government's grant structure, what they grant to municipalities should be looked at and make nore rational as well. And that makes sense to me. But now there is no mention in the bill of any revision of grants. They are long overdue. There is 11418

June 23, 1978 Tape No. 4807 DR. KITCHEN: no mention in this bill of grants. There is no companion bill. There is nothing about that. I believe that if these matters were tackled by the minister, by the government, that the whole question of taxation, how much is it going to cost, if these questions were answered ~hen I believe that the fears that the people have in this area, and believe you me there are fears, the minister said he b.ad- one of the speakers on the other side saying that they were not beating down the doors with complaints. No, but people raise it.

I went down to the senior citizens place on HarVey Road yesterday and this thing ~as raised. I did not raise it. We just went down for a social evening to meet as many people as possible and see what the place was like. But people were raising it. "What about this tax? What is going on?" And it is on people's minds. This regional government is going to cost money. Let us be honest, it is going to cost money and the government cannot, they cannot 11419

June 23, 1978 Tape 4808 PK - 1 Dr. Kitchen: just say we are going to bring in something or other we do not quite know what it is yet, trust us, we are not going to hurt you, we are goin~ to do well. They have all of the powers of the world here, they can do almost anything without being specified. And with no mention of how it is going to be paid. Who pays. No attempt to bring in any rationalization of the tax structure, of the grant structure. It makes no sense to me, Mr.

Speaker, why this bill is being brought in at this time~ It should be shelved, not forever, not forever, although I believe regional government as some people envisage, particularly Whelan and these envisage where every person in Newfoundland should be in a municipality like they are in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick and pay property taxes. That is not acceptable to the people in this Province and neither should it be. Municipa-lities are brought in as necessary. There are many things that have to be dealt with in municipal form in this Province.

We have a lot of small municipalities which are not economically viable, and they can never be economically viable, in my view. I may be wrong but that is my view. And something has to be done about it whether they amalgamate, co-operate, but what we do not need is another tier of government, we have someone even more removed, and this is the chief fault that many people find with the Metro Board they are not responsible to the people . And how many complaints have I got about the arbitrary decision-making that goes on in that Metro Board. Arbitrary.

And now we are going to have a regional government that is removed from the people, a second tier, in part, a second tier not entirely, a first tier for some people and a second level for other people which is going to make it very complicated and very difficult. And it is almost like giving the municipalities in this region over to the civil service to run. believe that is really ~1hat is happening. I would like perhaps some other time to address the questions of structure, and also on control. The whole question. of control which we have been talking about. There are a number of points 11420

June 23, 1978 Tape 4808 PK - 2 Dr. Kitchen: yet to be made on that, and probably other speakers will make it. And the.whole question about the proper structure have to be 1 ooked at as we 11 . But what I wanted to do today was to indicate that what bothers most people in their area, and what people are opposed to more than anything else is the uncertainty with respect to the tax, and the uncertainty with respect to the grants.

And I believe that the minister and the other speakers opposite should address themselves in some detail providing us-information projected cost and so on and let us kn9w how much it is going to cost, and how pays what, how much our taxes are going to rise, how much the property tax is going to rise in this city or in any of the other areas, because believe you me they are going to rise. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR .. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. the member for Mount Pearl. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR; N; WINDSOR: Mr.

Speaker, let me start first of all by making very clear that support this bill and I congratulate the minister and his officials on the way they presented it, and the fact that he has brought this bill in here at all. And I was somewhat disappointed last year, in fact, that Bill 101 was withdrawn, however we did that or the minister did that by the following consultation with a lot of the members in the House, and I agree with his decision. I was disappointed as I said but at that time there were things in that bill that needed to be looked at and indeed they were looked at.

There has been a lot said about this bill in the past couple of weeks. Perhaps one of the most noticeable comments that has been made, made by many_hon. gentlemen opposite is that there has been no consultation. Mr. Speaker, I take great exception to that remark. That is an insult to the people who have in one way or another contributed to· the development of this bill, and this proposed regional government. And you have to go back a long ways, you have to 11421

June 23, 1978 Tape 4808 PK - 3 Mr. N; Windsor: back to the•;urban region study itself, a tremendous amount of work that was done on it, first of a 11 by the consultants and by the people who attended the presentation of that study, and who 11422

June 23, 1978 Tape 4809 EC - 1 MR. N. WINDSOR: studied the contents, the reports submitted by the consultants, people who looked at it. The town of Mount Pearl, I can say without any hesitation, Sir, looked at that report in great detail and gentlemen say that the average person has no consultation. Well, Sir, that urban region study is the seed from which this proposal developed. AN RON. HEMBER: Nonsense. MR. N. lHNDSOR: It was the basis of it and the concept and it is a rationale. The justification for having a regional government is the need for regional services, and we will get into that.

But just to give you an example of the consultation that was held with the people of Mount Pearl, Sir. The town counciL had a committee of which I was at that time the paid employee, an advisory person to the committee. We held some fourteen meetings with interested groups in the town of Mount Pearl and explained to them thoroughly the contents of the urban region study, the effect it would have on them, the concepts of regional government and what that would do to the average citizen of the town of Mount Pearl or of the region for that matter. with interested groups.

Fourteen meetings, Sir, were held Every group th~t could be identified in the town was written and invited to come to the to~n hall. That was back in, I guess, 1973. So, Sir, there was the beginning of consultation. And then, Sir, the government from that urban region study commissioned the St. John's water study which was a study of the whole water system, the need for water services in the region, and eventually that became the Bay Bulls Big Pond water supply. And there was a sewerage disposal study which was a major study again of the need for sewerage disposal facilities in this area.

And there was a solid waste disposal ~tudy which looked at 11423

June 23, 1978 Tape 4809 EC - 2 MR. N. WINDSOR: the needs and the possibilities and the ways of disposing of solid waste in the St. John'~ region. Now all of these studies, Sir, took a tremendous amount of time. Officials and councils looked at them and studied them, debated them, talked about them, and certain a~tions have been taken on it. And then we have the Bay Bulls Big Pond water supply. The minister ·fortunately recognized we had an emergency situation. We could not wait for this matter of regional government to sort itself out before we moved ahead to supply water to the Northeast Avalon urban region.

We had a water shortage - people could not water lawns and so forth. You are all very familiar with that, of course. So the Province had to undertake to build a regional water supply, and it did. The Province should not be involved in providing water, should not be involved in operating a water system, but it would out of absolute necessity. And I congratulate the minister and his predecessor, the present MinistP.r of Mines and Energy, for having the foresight to surge ahead with that and to do it in the face of great need.

And it became obvious, Sir, that so many things were going - we had to talk about trunk sewers. Some of these have gone ahead. To date we have spent something like, or at least committed $35 million to the water system and some $15 million to the trunk sewer system in the region. These are regional facilities, at the moment still under the control of the Province, at least indirectly. And so there was a technical advisory committee established, Sir. These things just do not happen by themselves. The technical advisory committee chaired by the City Engineer of the city of St.

John's and with representatives -from the town of Mount Pearl - 11424

June 23, 1978 Tape 4809 EC - 3 MR. N.

WINDSOR: I, myself, Sir, have done it when I was employed with the town - from the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation as representatives of the Newtown area, in the Newtown development, Conception Bay South, the Department of the Environmenti the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing, the planning office of the department, and several other people, Sir, a technical advisory committee which has now held well over 100 meetings in the last four and one-half years, I think it has been operating, and these people have done a tremendous service to this area and I want to go on record as congratulating each and every one of them.

And I say it was an honour for me to serve on it for the two years I did with those people. They are all tremendously competent people. They have done a tremendous job in pulling together regional facilities. But they are an ad hoc committee appointed by the minister, and I am glad he did do it because we would not be nearly as far progressed with the provision of regional services now if he had not done that. This committee has guided the development of these services to a very large degree and I am sure the minister will agree he depends on their technical advice very heavily for some of the :11425

June 23, 1978, Tape 4810, Page 1 -- apb MR. N. WINDSOR: made. MR. MURPHY: too. technical decisions that are Some of my people are on that MR. N. WINDSOR: You have a representative on it as well, yes, Sir. It is a great committee. Well over 100 meetings they have had and that, Sir, is in consultation with technical people representing the people,who also happen to be residents,but they are the chief technical advisers to the various administrations or authorities in the region. And so we had the commission of enquiry better known as the Henley report, the Henley enquiry which held meetings throughout the region.

Every municipality made at least three representations because there were three sets of hearings on three various aspects. Eash municipality had the opportunity to put in a brief or make a representation to that enquiry, as did any other registered group or any private individual. Anyone who wanted to address that committee, that .enquiry had the opportunity to do so. Sir, that, I think, was pretty good consultation. Then the committee made their reports. They presented their brief and said, 'Here are our findings, here are our recommendations.

That was two years ago now and during that period of time the department put a series of ·press releases in the papers.- one, I think, each week for a series of fourteen or fifteen, or more that that, twenty-one, I think, press releases - outlining the various aspects of what is proposed and what is about to happen and what the concepts are. primarily of servicing, local government, taxation, it covered everything. This is. something that I have never seen before, the amount of consultation, with any proposed bill in this House of 11426

June 23, 1978, Tape 4810, Page 2 -- apb MR. N. WINDSOR: Assembly. For anybody to say that there has not been consultation, that is nonsense. So we have the Henley report now. We have these documents and· this is the third and final report, third of the three, the most important one, I suppose, and again the minister made it very clear that he was available to discuss the contents of that report with any council and numerous councils discussed it with. the minister. I disucssed it with my.council on numerous occasions, I held public meetings, held public meetings in the school in Mount.

Pearl and said, "We are going to discus·s this, I am going to tell you what is in it and I will answer any questions you have. And, Sir, there is nobody in Mount Pearl saying they have not been consulted, I can assure you that. I can assure you that and I would challenge anybody to say they have not had the opportunity to discuss regional government, its concepts and regional services or anything that has gone on here.

But I would make this observation, Sir, that those who had been involved, particularly going way back, say, to the urban region study and all the way through, those who had· been involved and sat in on these meetings - and I neglected to point out the set of meetings held by the Federation of Mayors and Municipalities, three meetings, I think it was, Sir, called by the Federation of Mayors and Municipalities who felt perhaps, We have a role to play here. And I congratulate the then president of that'Federation, Mr. Ron Fagan- MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! .. MR. N.

WINDSOR: - from the Burin Peninsula who did a tremendous job, I thought, somebody from outside who was totally impartial, had not really had any background,! would assume,in what had gone on, but.he became president at that time and he called these meetings and it was very 11427

June 23, 1978, Tape 4810, Page 3 -- apb MR. N. \'liNDSOR: obvious during those meetings, Sir, that that gentleman knew very well what he was talking about, he had a great grasp of the situation and the needs, Sir. He conducted those meetings very well and I would like to go on record as congratulating him on that. But there were three meetings, Sir. MR. MURPHY: It is a pity he is not in the area. MR. N. WINDSOR: Again, all the municipalities in the area and any committee who wanted to go in there was welcome.

All the M.H.A's were invited and a great number of us took the opportunity to take part there and to make contributions. MR. MURPHY: that. MR.N. WINDSOR: We gave up our Saturdays and We gave us Saturdays; that is right. This is a valid point, this is a point that really I should have expanded on. Most of these meetings were not held during office hours by people who were paid to be there.

You are talking about councillors who were non-paid, you are talking about other officials and members of the House of Assembly who gave up Saturdays and weekends to sit in on these meetings to make a contribution because they believed that what was going on was important, and so it was. And so, to say that there has not been any consultation, Sir, is just utter nonsense. Just utter nonsense! Totally misleading. Again, I say that the people who took the time to take

part in these discussions, they are not objecting, Sir, these are the people who are supporting this bill, supporting the bill. Most of the comments that I have heard, and I will get into a few of them, in objection to the bill have been comments made by people who,either, are totally misinformed or, really, are unaware of what is proposed in this proposal. 11428

June 23, 1978, Tape 4810, Page 4 -- apb MR. N. WINDSOR: The Mayor of the town of Mount Pearl, Mr. Speaker, has come out in support of this bill. An hon. member opposite, the Leader of the Opposition, suggested. the other day when this was made known; and I think the minister referred to it in his speech, that, 'Oh well, of course the Mayor of Mount Pearl is supporting it, he is the only one with a P.C. slate that got elected in the election.' 11429

June 23, 1978 Tape 4811 PK - 1 ·Mr. N. Windsor: Oh well, of course, the Mayor of Mount Pearl is supporting it, he is the only one of the P.C. slick that got elected in the election. I mean what utter nonsense. The han. gentleman should get his facts straight, Mr. Speaker. He does riot even know. If he is going to make false accusations let him at least be consistent because Mr. Hodder was not one of the ones that was named on my supported slate, which of course was nonsense, and I am not going to bother with arguing that for any length of time. I mean it is just too trivial to talk about.

But he should at. least get his facts straight, if he is going to accuse me of having a slate let him keep the names straight. But anyway he says that he was the only one elected. ~Jell that means, Sir, that the other six were not, they must be Liberal supporters I assume. They must be Liberal supporters and therefore I suppose they do not support the bill. AN HON. MEMBER: It is ongoing now, boy. MR. N. WINDSOR: Well, Mr.

Speaker·, I happen to have a little letter here to the Town of Mount Pearl, it is addressed to the han. minister with a copy to me, arid I will not read all of it, I will read part of.paragraph one, it says, "I am pleased at this time to inform you that a meeting of Council held on Monday, June 19, the Town adopted a motion of support for the concepts and principals behind the proposed Act. The whole Council; Sir, the six so~called non P. C. s 1 ate members, I suppose, support the bill .

" Sir, you. know, I would just as soon get away from that point because ·there is no slate and there is no room in the Town Hall for provincial politics. MR. MURPHY: (Inaudible). MR; N. WINDSOR: You know, that is just again a smear campaign, the typical type of reaction we are getting from han. gentlemen opposite the opposition they have and the points they are trying to·make are specious points because of lack of any valid points to make in opposition to this .bill. SOME HON: MEMBERS: Oh, oh: 11430

June 23, 1978 Tape 4811 MR. N. WINDSOR: Sir, we have had other municipalities now coming out down in Pouch Cove I understand and supported the bill. Any number of people. PK ~ 2 So let me just move on, we talk about regional government and the justification for it. I am not going to spend an awful lot of time on it, I think everybody agrees that regional government is a valid, it is necessary, it is as inevitable as night and day that regional government must come to this area.

The justification for it, Sir, is very ably presented in the Henley report, page 46, let me just read it very quickly, number (li), the need to provide appropriate mechanisms to co~ordinate and administer services such as water and sewer which exist on a regional basis and which cross municipal boundaries; (ii) the inability of the present system to cope with major servicing problems. And that is a very important point. The need to increase efficiency and economies of scale. Now imagine, the need to increase efficiencies. MR.

FLIGHT: You need to get yours hands on some more money MR: N: WINDSOR: The need for a co~ordinated planning policy from a regional prospective with an appropriate agency to administer the policy. The need to co~ordinate financial contributions from senior·levels of government that would be necessary to implement services in accordance with the municipal services plan. The need to provide a mechanism whereby regional financial resources are marshalled effectively and equitably to assist in the development of regional services. That can anybody argue with those points?

These are made by the Henley Commission, Sir, not by me, not by anybody on this side of the House. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. N; WINDSOR: Pardon? SOME HON; MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 11431

June 23, 1978 Tape 4811 PK - 3 MR. N. WINDSOR: So, Sir, everything that was covered by those points made by the Commission, of course, is exactly what we are trying to do with the bill. Now I made a, reference a moment ago to meetings held by The Federation of Mayors and Municipalities. And they following those meetings., Sir, the final meeting it was agreed that a certain list of conclusions and recommendations be forwarded to the minister. Just let us review them, Sir, very quickly, I am not going to read them all; but I want to touch on them.

Some of the recommendations of that group, the group of municipalities from this· area, for one, that a municipal form of regional administration is now necessary. I 11432

June 23,1978 ~:R.i~ .l-IINDSOR: Tape tlo. 4312 flli-1 for one that a municipal form of regional administration is now necessary. It is agreed we need Regional Government • • :umber two that in the beginning the regional municipal government in addition to its regional functions will be required to perform local municipal functions· in those areas of the regions not locally incorporated. And just to stop for a moment on that that I agree t<ith but I want to point out again as I have in previous speeches I '1ave made in this han.

House that this is one thing that I am not entirely unhappy with what is being proposed now but I hope that it ch.:.nges and I am sure it will but I would like to eee this regional council, the Regional Government be responsible only for regional affairs. I do not like the fact that certain areas of this region will not be incorporated and therefore the regional council will have to act as a local administration in those areas.

I recognize that this is the correct approach to take at the moment and totally necessary but I would hope that fairly soon we could move towards getting every square foot of this region inciorporated and therefore t!nder the control of a local government •. Therefore your regional council would be purely regional and there could not be a confusion which I suspect may l.J.: part of the cause for some of the misconceptions that are presently prominent. a~d that the regional council in the unincorporated areas acts essentially as a town council in those areas.

Yet we are saying that in incorporated areas it acts as a regional council so it is a little confusing to the average person who is not perhaps totally familiar with every - AH HOc~.! lEi1BER: i'IR. H.IHNDSOR: How will that effect Newtotm? Newtown - they act as a local council in i~ewtown as i·letro Board does now. I ::>ee. :'lR. a.WINDSOR: A change essentially for :iet~to¥.n. The people in ~ewtown are paying taxes and so forth and receiving services and so instead of paying it to Hetro Board they will pay it to the 4egional council.

At~ t!Oi~ HEMBER: Just a change in the name. ;m. ;L wr:msoR: Just a change in the name. The c:;airman does not change. Tile only change is that instead of seven appointees 11433

June 23,1978 :·JR.N.WINDSOR: Tape No. 4812 AH-2 you will now have the opportunity to elect somebody to that council. That is not bad, I will go along with that. Let us look at a couple more of the recommendations. In fact· this recommendation two , it is ·recommended however that annexation or incorporation of new local areas proceed as quickly as possible. The minister i1as already G.one tilat with Portugal Cove· and St. Phillips and St. Thomas as recommended by the :ienley Report by the way. '.-lith an expectation for loca