vor_, . J PRELIMn;~, RY ~EDI'l'ED 'fRANSCRIPT HOUSE OP A.SSZt·8LY F'OR THE FERIOD: 2:00 p.m. - G:OO p.m. MONDAY, APRIL 10, 1978 NO. 22

April 19, 1978 The House met at 2:00 P.}:. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape No. 746 Order, please: NH - 1 I am pleased to welc one to the House of A.ssec:bly a delegation from the Norris Arm Town Council, including }~yor Mike Saunders, and Councillors Kevin Kennedy, Frank Freeman r.nd Chesley Snow. I know all hon. l!leQJ:ers join me in welcoming these gentler~ en to the Legislature. ~~E~ PREMIER HOOR.ES: Hear, hear: STATEMENTS BY ill NISTERS: The hen. the Premier. Mr. Speaker, I apologize for not having copies of this state.-11ent for the House, but because of the time limitation s I have been unable to get them.

But · r would like later on to get a precis of what I will say, or an elaboration of it really, for circulation to the House, Is the hon . member going to survive? MR. N~~~Y}_ - a snap decision? ~o. it was far from a snap decision, Hr. Spe<>.ker, but hopefully it was a decision based on the best i nt erest of this Province. Last Thursday, April 6th., the Province '~as informed by Peat, Marwick Limited, the receiver and general manager for the Come By Chance oil refinery, that a proposal had been received from Ultramar Canada Limited, involving the purchase and the sale of the refinery.

A copy of the Ultramar proposal was receiYed by the Province, by ourselves, at 6:00 P.M. last Thursday. The receiver has formally requested notif i cation of the officiai pos ition of the Govern.-uent of Ne.wfoundland with -respect to the Ultrarr.ar prop 0sal by today, April lOth. Mr. Speaker, oi!.e of the facts th;:;t 'lo'e fo•.md c;uite incredible at the very beginning was the fa::.t that as late &s 6:00 P.M. o~ Thursday, in other words Friday morning for all intents and purposes,

April 10, 1978 Tape No. 74E NM- 2 we were 'lsl;:,d to make ~. decisi:~n on a p!'optlsal that was put before us by today, without any .:onsuJ.tatic·n other than that that I have ll!e!lt:toned. My colleagues in Cabinet r!e t this ;norning to consider this matter at length and I a!1nour1ce their wish to inform the Legislature that the receiver has been fo!':'.ally advised that the Government of Newfour~dland is not prepared to enders~ acceptance of the Ultramar proposal. SOME HOt~. m:tmERS: Hear, hee~.r!

PREHIER HOORES_: As hon. members may be a~->•are, Sir, the receiver Peat, Marwick, Hitchell, was appointed by the first mortgngee, the British, with instructions to preserve the refinery property and to take all steps possible to effect a reasonable sale of that property. The legal rights, Sir, to sell the Come By Chance. refinery rests with the first mortgagee by law,of course 1 and that is the British, and the first mcrtgagee has sought the co=ents of the gove.rr.oent in its capacity :J.s the se::ond n;ort~2;;ee, and of course in its nor1!1al gove.rnmental capacity here :in the Province.

I should now like to outline briefly the proposal which was recelved from Ultramar and explain the reasons for the government's decision. The Ultra~~r proposal was conditional upon the fttlfillment of certain conditions. Amongst these was the approval of the federal government for the use of the wharf at Come Ey Chance ..

Other conditions pertained to the obtaining of the approval of all regulatory authorities involved and the obtaining of an ag!'eement on a procedure to obtain the consent of other creditors and the Svpreme Court of Newfoundland, and subject to these conditions Ultraoar agreed to Number one pay a deposit of $500,000 on acceptance of the proposal. Number two - assume the liability incurred in pre!;er-ling the refinery to date to a maximum of $12 mill:!.on. NUl'lbcr three - to mothball thz refinery until at least DecembEr 31st., 1981. ftMd number four- subject to

April 1q, 1973 f_l.:_Er!IF~..£2_ :_ reffnr.:ry. NM- 3 vis~ility conditions being met,to start u~ the The u::.tt·ar.;,lr proposal, Sir, said that in effect t'iE<!' \.'ere go:lng to use Lh<'ir best e-ffort:~ to co;:.r.;ence the start up of tt.e refinery if a feasibility confirmed that the refinery could yield c;.t least $50 million ::.~ proj:its over the first five years of oper~tion and their sale commitments totalled eighty per c~nt of the designed capacity if those sale conditions were obtained frc;n parties of subGtance for a five year tertJ... Mr.

SpeakE:r, going off these notes again, we fo'..!nd lt very difficult as a gove:rnment and as the people we have had advising us, that any company could in fact come up with l'ale.;; contracts of a five·year duration who:tber ' it be for the supply of crude oil, '\·:bather it be the selling of the p:-oduct or whatever the case may be... because with the instability of the OPEC pricing syste:~ and what that does to ;.;orld =rkets, this sort of :ive year condition see~s to be very irnprobab)P. to say the le~st.

Ul trarnar retai.ned the ri~ht to close the re-finery folloving start up if losses totally $10 million were yielded in. two consecutive years. If start np conditions were met, Ult.ramar agn~ed to make certain payments to creditors. The obligation in this connection 'lo."'uld be to pay fifty per cent of net prof:i.ts over twenty years to a mao~mum of $210 million. The proposal did no: specify how this amount was to be distributed a~ongst the various creditors of the refinery. If this proposal were implemented, Ultramar would nave th~ full right to utilize the refinery as it wished.

And they have indicated a desire to utilize the site initially for trans­ shipment of crude oil. A.nd I might say here, Sir, that I think

April 10, 1978 Tape 747 PK- 1 . Premier Hnor£'s: liJ.tr;rrr .ar's intentions were understandable here. ---------- I think they were go0d intentions. They obviously were in a position as the enly finn bidde;r :md •,:anted to take full advantage of it, and I c<:n understand that. Maybe after startup they could have gotten tl1e refinery r,uing, but with the conditions present in that·particular. agreement I would sur.£.est, Sir, it 'WouJd be highly unlikely.

If Ultn.mar· determines that startup conditions could not be satisfied by December 31, 198l,the receiver on behalf of the first r.wrtgagee could obtatn a reconveyance of the refinery property subject to full reimbur:;cmcnt of Ultramar for all of the expenses that had been incurred. An impm:t<mt itel!l of the Ultramar proposal was that its acceptance would preclude any further negotiations with other parties who may have an interest in the refinery.

In analyzing this proposal,Sir, gove1nrnent gave particular consideration to the following matters~ First of all, there w~re very stringent startup conditions, and, in our opinion it is hi~hlv •mlikely that the acceptancP of the proposal would mean in fact that the refinery would startup again. Number two, Ultramar w011ld effectively gaiu control over the future disposition of the refinery for the next several years in that wunder the terms they had the right to sell or lease the facility on any reasonable terms.

Number three, Sir, we felt that environmentally for the risks that would be involved, for the economic return of thirty to forty jobs in the initial analysis,the environmental risks were too great as were the terms and conditions that they had laid forward. The Ultramar proposal however would have ensured continued preservation of the facility,provided direct empl~)~ent at Come By Chance of approximately thirty to forty people, and it would have enabled a successful oil refining company to continue efforts towards full reactivation of the refinery at a later date.

Bearing these factors in mind Cabinet arrived at its decision and the receiver has been informed that the Province cannot endorse the Ultramar proposal. We have also, Sir, advised ECCD and Klein11ort- Benson to the same effect. tole have urged the firs= m01:tgar.ee and receiver to ~ontim•c !n their efforts to find a new operator foe the

·- April l.O, 1978 PK - 2 Plemier Moores: refinecy. We have again indicated our ~illin r. ness to co-operate in every respect. TI1e first nortgagee,the British~ consist of the Export Credit Guarantee Divjsion of the British Government and a consortium of banks. They are meeting today in London to determine their position on the Ultramar proposal, and it fs expected that a formal announcement will be made by the first mortgageee tomo!·rot·7 on the Ultramar bid.

I might &ay, Sir, in closing that in view of certain news reports I should inform the House that the government has nee received nor is it "privy to any proposals submitted by other groups, and particular the Shaheen interest. The receiver has informed the Province that a bid was received from a Shaheen company and that the proposal r.as been rejected for normal coa~eri~al re3~ons. The receiver further adv5.sed that the proposal was submitte:d in strict confidence as a result of whicn the receiver does not feel authorized to disclose the details to the Province.

One of the most incredible things is, Sir, I keep hearing on the radio and in the press wh<>t those conditions were, and upon contacting the receiver we have been advised that the Klein• ,rcirts in England and ourselves in this Province, a nart of the condition of that proposal that -was rejected by the recetver was that we not be informed of the details. I find that very difficult, Sir, but the face is that we are open to any proposal. We are open to,obviously,any proposal that will be of benefit tc the Come By Chance area.

We will be open to any proposal that is the benefit of this Province and the people who work at the refinery. SOHE HON. ~!EHP.ERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEA.'<ER: }IR.. W. ROWE: The bon. Leader of the Opposition. Thank you, Hr. Speaker. Titis may not have been a snap decision, Mr. Speaker, but it is the kind of proposal which you could certainly make a snep decision against. I do not blame Ultramar, Sir. Ultramar is a

April lO , 19"/8 '!;:pe 747 Mr .. W. f\o ;.~e : com•· any ope:-a r "g in thi$ ?.:o·1i.. ce , and is ob iousl: do i ng it· best to ge~ wha:ever ?icr:c o' act ion it c:an 1-dthir. the real m of th~ business that it ope.:ates. Bu t, Sir , !

" s given certain information . concerning he propo .:1 ~r.ade by t'ltru;n.;r,i n detail as a m<trter of fac L - here is not too !'luch confidcnti'll in his Prov;ir:c.c,l have Found - ar:d Si r, the deal was comple ely one -si ec as the Premie r has indicated. '!here is no :-isk what sot;ver being assumed with the possibili t y of ell kinds of benefi ts ncc~ring to t hat con.pany .

It is not oft en , Sir, r ~~t ~ e on this side of the House P.re gi.v~n t he opportunity ~ o r ise an:l say that the govern.., nt is doing the xisQr. bin& . .I.n dti.s case, S·i r, we can say withou t equivocalion that t he go ero .. ent has done the abs olutely -eigh t th"ng in ~·aking $ure that a.<; far as it is ccncen•ed it ->J reje:::ced the propo.:al by Ultramar . One thing, S~r , I ll!ight add is th:lt ·o>~ h ene ·Jet: a n

Ai>ril 10,1978 Tape No. 7Ll3 /JI-1 su!.J;,Jittint\ propos;::.ls for the Ccli:e. l>y Chat>C•~ n~f i"cry,the ,;ovcrm~.ent has to realize th.J.t there is an inherent coaflic~ of interest in that suc11 an established oil coc.,pmty alrea~iy has oil refineries located else,~llcre in c:1e ·~"UrlC: :Jli'-' it l".aY he in the interest of that rcfiacries,suc:l as the one in CoL"le r.y_ Ch.:mcc 1 fro~• in· fact t::vcr starting up again. A.:l(.l that is sometllin~; -w·hicil has to be borue in mind ~orhcn the governnent is dealing ~orith establbhed cm.1panies. I would go so far as to say t1Jis, :1r.

Speal·.er, that th€ ~ovcrrJr,et~t should not accei?t any prorosal l;y .:my establis;v'"cl large oil co"'puny which is tryitlc; to ~;et hold of the Come Jly Chance Oil Refinery unless there is a guarantee by such an established oil cotrpar!y that t;1e oil refinery will be started up with st:rir.gen·;: penalty clauscs attached, started. up at a ciata certain nar.~ecl in tr.e proposal itself. s o:rr; ~;o:;. ;.w::u:Rs: R0\1'..::: is Oi1i;. thing, Slr, tl1at the govcrr~cnt h~s not n:..2de quite cl~u.r unci I would like t~te Pre::J.ier to nake this cle:ac.

Tile JOVara:~et:t ~1.1s iudicuted that it doto:s not agrea 'H'ith t!lis propos:~l for its O'•'ll part. The govcrn.;.;u:!r.t iJas it.<llcated that Kl.cin~.-'Ort-Bcnson and ECD~,w::ic!t guarantees the Klcim;ort•ilensou loan,<lill Le t~a;;;ing an ailnour.c..:~::c.--.t shortly as to its position. Will the Pr=ier indicate v;hetl1er the government will in fact take steps to prevent the proposal by Ultraoar from actually being accepted by the first mortzagee?

In other worus, -what I am saylr,z, Sir, is I do not knew cruite if Ultra.'1l2.r can get in the backdoor on this because I have not had the opportunity to st1;1ay all tiw le;.>al it:~plications, nor !:as znyo::1.c else on this side of the Eousc. But will the govert~ent actually take steps to prevent Ultr~~ar in so~1e way or other from bri~ing this proposal into reality by outside negotiations wi.th the receiver, with tile first =rtj,;ag.,e,or o;.'ith <:.U)" o t;ler lar&t! creditor of t:1e bankrupt Come Ily Chance oil refincry1 It

April 10,1975 Tape ~1o. 74S govcrn~1.:!l1t to saj' w~ do not a~ree w"i til t:lis proposal. :.re think c:1.._ goverrLJ-:tent snould go fut:th~r anJ s..::.y it \:ill take... st.eps to prcv\!nt this propos;1l beinb acc::.p tccl ever-. i: it me~ns, Sir, =~sortiHg to t~J.c PRL:::u:: :!vo::.r::s: re,;<Jrdin.; the stat<"ilh?.nt,I :::i.;hr. s;.~y I t:1i:1k ic ;.ooulJ be very 'oi'Xon;; if t;1c Britis~1 in f;,ct do not accept: the propusal either. \{.: have made our position vcr~· clear to t.hc people at Ultra::2r: ·.c were in toucil uith tilC.i~ tilis i.iorning ai;.d tolc.l tht::.t\ ._.,h~t our position '..-.'.JS ;:.s corporate citizens of t!1e Provir.c.c.

As the Lcacier of t>lc Oppo3j tioa said they are a lot of .;oud people and wc \~ant to ::.>ake t:l:;.t very clear as well. But. •:hat we do uot wo.nt to do, Sir, i~ dictate a pcsit.io~:1 that th\! Dritis!t will w.ake a decision basc0. U?O~l wi1at they tb.ink our ccutrary action is zoiuz to be. \.;:,at I vill say, Sir, ls t~u~.t whatever i~ neccssa=-y to l.J.;: cl.or:e by t.hls bovcri."i.i:.cnt and hoil~:full y by th:!.s l:ousc ..-ill ba C:one after >:~ have know the !:ritL;~ . po.sitic.n. HR. SPLA!~Ei<.: The hon.

Ninister of Recreation and RehalJilitioa. :-!1\. hiCKEY: sorry I do not l~ve a P'-"t:pared one) but the !nformation just carr.e to ;ne about an hour or two ago. Last, week. Sir, there -were 'luestions raL;eci by my colleagU£:E on the other side of ti1e House with regards to the educatior.al qualificatiors of one David Syrett,forn:er acti:inistrator of Exon House. The questions .,ere in connection with the educationa~ standards and qualifications with regards to the statement made at his trial trot he had attained but grade X.

I gave ti•e HouS<' at that time the inforuation "'hich was available to Iile from the reconl s of my departmeat,sucil information being vei!ieti by the Public Service Co=ission. I beli.eve at that tiree I stated th'3.t the gentlec;an had recorded on his ap?lication as having attained grade XIII vith a year at Ryerson Technical Ius"::itutc and so.ne three courses in hospital

April JO,l 'J7-.\ : c -:-

"Aprii 10, 1'/78 !rr:.. ll1C!:F.Y: c<Jrmot get any verificati'.>n ~eyond Grade I;:,cr ~t least !'' '~ Y cr:r.P.ct ~;c:. verified the courses as listed by him in l>ospital administration, I lvish to provide informat:ion to the House, as I lndic.:rtcd, ha~c<1 0::1. the investigation that I asked the Public Service Commis:;ion to do, t.•l:~n the rcsul ts came to me I \·:ould pass it alon? .. ~m.. SPF.AXFTI: The han. the Lcacier cf t11e 0pposiUo~. MR. \L ?L Rn\ffi: Sir, if I m;;y. In the 1 ight of this information, nmv, ?lr.

Speaker, will the han. minister inrlicate whether he or his colleaguc.s in the. r,overnment nm~ deem it necess ,1ry to holr. a public inquiry into the procedures for thE' hiring of people for "tip.hJy responsible positions in government institutions sm:h as Y:xnn rouse or children's homes generally, or old age ~o~es for that matter? MR. SPFAKF.TI.: The han. the llinister of >:ehabiliti!tion an!! recreation. MF .• HICKEY: Mr.

Speaker, it is not our "intention to hoid a public inquiry, anci I do not intend to assume th'l-t it is go in~ to be done, but I will be discussing this r.atter with representatives of the "l'uhlic Service,certainly as it appli~s to mv department, as I al'1 sure government will in general. But I think it is fair to say that the public service people themselves are as shocked at this as we are and I am sure that it does not warrant a public inquiry, but indeed that corrective measm:es will be taken from here on in to insure that there is verification of qualificatio~s of those ~ho apply for positions. MR.

SPF.AKER:. Before calling the next rout:i_nc orderJ I 'llelcome to the flouse on behalf of hon. members some visitors from Greens pond - Hayor Herbert Burry, Deputy ~'ayor Edward Blackwood and Councillor Rex Harding fro!!1 the Town Council of Greensponci. SOHF. P.ON • ~F.''B F~ S : Hear. hear: 0"-.AI. OT'F.STIO'lS v~. ~pT~:\1"F~ · -------

April 10, 19i'll 1'ape /4'; l-.C - 2 ' HR. l·: .. N. ro~ .. 1r: Sir, may I direct a qu~stion co the Ninister of r.~habil:!.tation and i' ecreation cnnc'!ming the s ubject '" 'r~:!c!l hc raised by \:ay of a ministcr i nl st a tc~e~t? In vic~ of t!1c f~ct t ~ 3t he indicates that no public . i~quiry is going to be launched ~-nto •rhnt turns out to be perhaps the tip of the iceberg, Sir, t.rill he indicate "'hether he is prepared to table in this hor,.

House the recoMa:endation of the Public Service Cou:missi on ns to the top tva or t!:ree or fot:r 1 or however many there were,reco rrmenda.tions hy the Public Service Cmmilission for this jc•h as Aitministrator of l:xnn I:ouse, ~·r. Speaker? The han. the '~inister of T>ehabil itatlon and Recreation. ~r. Speaker, I car.not say yes tc t~.at.

In answer to it l t-rill certainly scy I ~rill take it unc'er advi s ell'ent, but I wo~ld tvant to adc that I c<~n state arnin .lor restate as I die last ct~crs and cert a inly t~~t is 01 fact ··:hie!) r ':.~·Ie verifie-! !llyse J f. , .. ith regards to tabling it, certainly I do not knO\~ "],at kind of ;:>icceder:t that sets. I ti'ill take !t under advisement and I t~ill p,et; back to the hon. gen tle.man • t!R. t-1. N. Rm·T.: A supplementary, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementarf. MR. '1-1. N. Rm-lf: Will the minister indicate whether he is prepared to table in the hon.

Rouse, Sir, any recommendations regarding ~~r. Syrett -;.•hich the Public Service Commission or the gcvernl'lent - the minister, himself, governr.~ent aepartinent - might have received from other civil ser•nn .ts,either deputy minister or perhaps the Administrator of the t.ener;;l Hospital or any other hospital in the ?rovince, in other words, recommendations received respecting Mr. Syrett from other people who are presently in responsible positions in the public servic e ? ~rR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Hinister of Rehabilltation and Recreation. ' 1r .. ;i"".!':-t1·c·r, thf· ,,l ,r'llf' question !)~

TDpe 74') EC - 3 r;;. nrc::.-r:y: ------ tnhling such Occurr'ents ce:-ta"t!:.J y, I said, I am cert 2 in] y not in terestec: in hiding anything t·egarcling pcsition on it -- Hr. Speaker.

l97U _., 1'11.:: lwn. r'1·emier. unust1c1lness of this p.:1rtic\.1lar C[l.!al if icat ion~:i for- (1 pcrscn l.~l :<\·.!C!l a ~-., . _.:, L·: : and t.n·:.! fact that uc "-~as reco~.h21l(lCa nuUJbc:r one.., we \Jill ct:•rtainly u~l...i.t.::!I"L>"'l. ;I.:, particular incidet1t-l a;n not sayinr. it , is wrong no•<i-but a pretty fair job to oy ~noYl..:do;e,out in this particul;;.r. cas<: we will l;c, 'L::- ing for a full report from tile Public Servi.:e Co'"'-'ision i.wo1 vin!', <Jll c.[ '·-" things tne hon.

LeaJer of tl e Opposi::ion ila:; referrf!d to and cf~rtrl ·:r,l;.· ,;, ._ ,-..:: i,;; absolutely nott1in;; that we will find out that w~ not onl) • too •.:illir:s ~-' table and make sure that tids thing is cleared up to everyone's satisf: ;,-~j- , ·· }til.. W .li. ROwt.: 1 have a suppl~mantary u!t tito:: s~: ;; to~ic, ~!r. S!:'eaker. rtR. SPEMER: A supplcucentary. HR. w.

N. !\.OW!::: would not the P.-erctier or the minister now agree that in view of· a:l tta: u•l.J:.::-- wered questions ,the. s;;<:c:ulation ~JUDlic:ly, the speculaLion that t;•e:re t.d~.,l ;.:-v-:: ueen interfere••<;.! uy hi;;h rankin~ civil servant!>- not political interfcr,'.>•-'- necessarily,I am not ulaJ:Jing the &ovcrnment or any 60Verrur.ent minister.s-r., ('<:H- lation on all kinds of things, Sir, would not the Preclier a[lrce that ti•·~ i>est way to clear tile air is by a public inquiry under the Publ:!.c lnc'it:iries .'.t:t even if, Sir, in order net to estai>lish precedence of confidential re?ort& frcw. civil servants to ministers or othen.risc ue made public,even if a portion of such pui>lic inquiry was held in camera, Sir, would not tile Prer.::ier agree t!ta t 111hat is e5sential cas~ is th.:!t the trut! .. coi.l!i.! out even jf !;C.vyl:: i:Iay .G.:;."·:...:. ~u protected oy in car.,era hearings <md, Sir, that th£ public unease and disquiet over this watter be laid to rest by the truth comlng out in the appropn.ate .tor: .. :.-:.!

Th~ non. Premier. PREHTER }100KES: Mr. Sr-eaker, a public inquiry I d-:; :«'t think is any better than any other ;;;ort of :lnquiry if it is the truth ~·e ar~ We wii.l make sure we fiad out all the infor::JatJ on tha~ iS relevant to t:l_._,; pat"ticular appointo:~ent:, !5ut the ansv;er to F.! very problem that ari!,~s c.>.ml·-t J II D

Ap:-il 11) --, 1~78 750 PR.iiHIEP- }iOO!;J::S: be the estabj_ish:r.cnt of a pu~lic inquiry.Ibe Leader of the Uppositiou kw;.:s that. :~nat ~.;e will clo, Sir, is make public all tbe infon1atio:t in the inquil·y ~.;t:. 1<i.ll be doing oursclvc'ti. llR. ~. t\EARY: A supplementary, ~:r. Speaker. A supplementary l the hon, n~erJbcr for LaPoile. }iR. S. N1~ARY: Hr. Speaker, obviously, Sir, right from the beginning of this whole thing there has been an ,attempt at cover up. .HR. HICii.H.~I.:<: A point of order . A point· of orc!er has co:ne up. MR.

HICt:Y.A.~: Th"'t statement E;ost assuredly imputes motive on the part of some han. Diember in this ilouse either sin&ly or eel- lectively and I would ask that Your Honot direct that ti•at statemetlt be with- drawn unequivocally. HR. SI'EAK.C:R: ------ Ti:e word cover up,.;.iven tl.e contLxt and opinion)impute a n:.otive and I would ask the he-n. geat:lew.an to withdr.aw aud repi1rase his q~;estion. NR. S. NEARY: I withdraw, Hr. Speaker, but I thL"1k I can reword tl.e prea~le of my question by saying there is all the ap~ear2:1ce of a cover up in this particular case. MR. HICKEY: A point of order.

A point of order has cc;me up. HR. HIC!(EY: ----- Mr. Speaker, it is very difficult to listen to something like thar,After demonstrating just a few m:!nutes ago in keeping with what I said last week to n:y hen. friends opposite that wnatever information was available to me regarding this case it w_ould be forthcor.lir.g 7 factual and in total.

I hav~ done that,Your llcnor,and certainly that should clarify that psrtic1.,lar i.ssue of cove-r up o-r suggestio~ of cover !.li?, or kee?ing or withholding any information,! even said last week,Your Honor,with regards to another matter pertaining to the sarJe case, that I would table any docur..en.cs · does not de:nonstrate one war.tjng ta cover anything !.ip, MR. W .:-1. ROl<l!:; A point of order, Sir.

1-'..R. ., • i\. !\l)t.;c;: ---- ---- uses t i!C t.:or:! s ·c~\·cr up' •..:iti:cut any rJ tt:!lifica~io u .;to~tr Hono :- \~ill nc-: ic~· ~:. a : I .iid ItOt rls<! oecausc both h¢ ancl l agree t hat t hat •.·as :;omet.hin;; t.il.lt s ::o~; lc.l have been withdr<wn beca use it ir.!pt..t cd cot ives . :ic we\·e r , Sir , ::c s!:a::c t hat solilCthing has the app earance of a cev e r up cO!!S not impute mo t ives to an!·boC:y. I have alrP.ady indic ateci earlier in tl .e !lo use c:.a c t ile absence of a )>Ut~lic i n quir y a:1tl the abs~nce ~herefore of clcl'riu;; the nlr for the p:1bHc e;ivu~ well ~'no·,,-n l ega l phn:.sc tnat justice

-• April 10, 1978, Tape 751, Page 1 -- apb MR. ~'l.N. RO\'lE: must not only be dor;e b•.1t appear to be done is important i~ this context, and it is the appearance of a cover up. Not that the members have gone out of their way, or the ministers have gone out of their way to cover un any information or to keep anything back, but the public should not even have had, Sir,the appearance of a cover up in this_ parti _cular matter which, of course, leads to the necessity for a public enquiry.

That is the point obviously being made by my hon. colleague 1 t:,he Opposition House Leader, Sir, and I would submit that there is no point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. The Chair directed the hon. the Hember for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) to unequivocally withdraw the use of the words 'cover up' as they were alleged in this House. The hon. gentleman says, "0£ course I will withdraw anr'l. I will rephase it by saying it had the appearance of a cover up." I say, M.r.

Speaker, that that is not an unequivocal withdrawal of the statement that;: had been made pursuant to Your Honour's direction. I would also draw Your Honour's attention to the position that during an Oral Question it is improper, against the rules, to impugn the accuracy of information conveyed to the House by a minister. (Inaudible) do not be wasting time. Look at the item today in the Hashington Post (Inaudible) that ought to keep the minister busy for awhile. MR. :1-IICKf.'..AN: Mr. Speaker, I refer to 17l(

t) of Beauchesne. l-1R. SPEAKER: On this particular matter the first point, of course, was cover up and the decision there was that that was an imputation. This point is different, the hon.qentleman has said, "k~ appearance of a cover up." I find that it is not necessary for me now to .decide whether that is unparliamentary or not. I can

April 10, 1978, Tape 751, ~a.ge 2 ...... al?b ~· SPEAKER: make a decision which ;is 1 I think, mor.·e immediate and self-evident on the matter and dispose of it that way, and that is - the han. gentleman referred to Beauchesne (t.l - I would refer to page 147,

section 171. "Observations ;vhi.ch might lead to debate cannot be regarded as corn.ing within the proper limits of a quest. ion." So with that ruling on the substantive ma.tter, the particular 'liay it "'as put, whether it is parliamentary or not parliamentar~ it certainly can be ruled out of order. on that ground. If I have to make a specific decision in a different. context then I will do so, but I do nc•t feel that that is necessary now. HR.

NEARY: Thank you . .'\nd now I would like to put the question to the hon. minister, Sir, Did the Public Service Ccrrenission give the hon. minister - or was the bon. minister's curiosity aroused sufficiently to ask the Public Service Corr~'llission why they gave this appointment to a man with Grade X? Why they had in the documents over at the Public Service Commission, why they had it recorded that this man was qualified \vhen in actual fact he was not qualified? Why the job did not go to people like Mr.

Terry Stapleton,who has made statements publicly th~t he was well qualified and he knew one othe::- gentleman .,tho was qualified for the position? Did the minister ask any questions of the Public Service Corrmission along these lines? Surely the minister must have been interested in getting some information for L~e House. MR. SPEAKER: and Rehabilitation. MR. HICKEY: The han. Minister of Recreation Your Hcnou~ 1 am certainly rather interested in t~os~ very question~ right now because it is only today that I have had the verification that ind eed

, [ • .. ' 1~78 , G::.:~c >' ~ - , __ . I dj d W"lt ques ion th-:: Puhlic Service Co~e -,d~ . ..L·:o·, !\or die"". I :ins .... ruct my s .::J.ff to .

I i nstru cted my st:. ··-:: . th y fou.- .n th .i-; disc:::-L'p~:tcy ~,o.• ? li c h car.'!e es a th_ qr,!n0 or lev '-1 of ~du ::::aticn the gent lem an had, and a dil'>~ :c<· ~- ;~cy based en the recor d::; .... ,:tich , the d~pa rt men t had . 1 <' •i not .:nl'1 :n:ct :ny staff to qua stion the Publ ic !>ervi_ .. ;. : .. '- this p~r1:i. cula r matter as raised by my hon . iria :1'::t ,'"\, ~.- because up 'lo this tim~ there has not been any veri f't. c-: .1 .i r: to -say v: ~ich in£orm.::J.tion was ind eed correct. .

So r.::; inl"tru ctio n:.; w(;re to first of ali verify, if they had r-~·t v·~l: l.fic aU"r! alread y , to get verificatjon of the g~ntl .-al an ' s e:duc:a!:.ion sta.nciarc and let us ha ve that in=o ::."Hu1.:lC;). NO\v i t js onl.y today ~..hat I have gotten it . To giv ~ a furth er ans wer, or a c: ~i'! .·er a n s\,'l?l.'" to v;ba c th e hon . gentleman is talking Grade !:I::: I , and the fact that somebody else was c..lso recomm·~ ; ded as bei s accep table r,..•ou ld not not necessar:.lv conciud.:! that thi s g<?atlema n should not have gotten t:h•: appc:i n !: r,ent . He \-:as , if fact ,

April 10, 1978 Tape 752 PK - 1 M~ Hickey: number. one on the list. And if he had Grade XIII with a great deal of practical experience, and oecause of the type of position "Whic1I >.'e are talking about here, I cr my staff, as far as I know,did not question the Public Service with regards to that matter. But certainly nm.1 there is a ne"' dimenision now and certainly if we can ~uestion it we will. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Hr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: I ~11 recognize the hon. gentleman for a final supplementary, then I will recognize some other hon. members, and obviously that will not preclude others from coming back to this subject later. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, obviously there is something not right here, Sir. There is a little hanky-panky tvent on behin<l the sceneslobviously. Now the minister keeps saying that in order to produce the infonr 1ation th:!t the House requests that it would create a very dangerous precedent.

No~ ~hat is in the f!les of the Public Service Commission where people are applying for jobs that are advertised~ \vhat: 'lo."oulci be in the files Lhat wuuld ci·e:,; te a dangerous precedent? Speaker, Mlt. W. ROWE: Should not all of the info:rmation, Mr. (Inaudible) the public .•. MR. NEARY: Should the public not have this inforiilation whether or not there was political interference, whether there was interference by deputy ministers, whether there was interfence by the members of the medical profession? Should not this -Mr.

Speaker, the minister either produces this evidence for the House or the government has no choice but to go ahead with a public enquiry under the Public Enquiries Act. MR. SPEAKER: The Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation. MR. RICKEY: Mr. Speaker, you know,the hon. gentleman obviously d~d not hear what the hon. the Premeir said. This minister or no othel' minister determines in isolation of one another of our colleagues government policy.

Apr:!} ]0,1978 Tape /52 c·.-: - ., That is a bit much t" s::ty U1e ]v;~~;t. ;.[y only com11H.:~nt in ans·"'·eriug the questiun a!,out tai..J jri,:; llds -:~O ... 'Il:: .- J~ which I said showed Hr. Syrett, numb~r one, and t•.,•o .1:!";r.:., ,.,, ., that I did not ~·anl to say yes and not be able to '-.vq· ;,::: \:w·._i and produce the actual docum~nt And I dlc.! noc bu:.-.• Fll :i:: ,; ·, • wh=:t govern!!!ent position or government policy •ms Oil thl'-' ~3,_.,~;r.,,>-r ;c;1:ter. I said there may be precedents. Surely, Mr. Spe8.ker, t:bo: hnn. gentleman will agree that ~1e cannot co:ne into this bon.

House t'.J' •, day ancl p;.~t rafts upon rafts upon rafts·of paper on ellery singl2 thing that this administration does on the table of th<" Hm..c.o;e, :-;,_. government can do that. And that was the only thing,t>itli 1·e£c:,..,, '''" to this 1 was the only meaning that that comment has. The hon. the Premier hac: already told t'rH~ llo·,,,,., that in the light of the extenuating circumstances or Lhc:> SP'"'-'i' 1 circ•.unstances surround1ng t!\is matter, thCJ!: all pe.rtine~J.-:_ irlfucr~ tL -;cu regardjng this case will be tabled.

And, Sir, he has spoke.-n f ,·~r ~·be governmenL and l.e has indicatc:>d goverulllent polh:y, aaJ as a Lt:,,L1; ~ of that I will follow through and produce those documents. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, I Yould like to ask a question o!. the Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation.

When the Civil Service Commission made their reco~endation on the position or positions, I w~mld think that were three, four or more names, the recommendation had to come to some one,whether it was the minister, the deputy minister or a director or someone. knat '-le are asking is, one, who did it go to? Hho approved it? who recommended Mr. Syrett for this position? And we would like to have these people,l.Jhoever they are,laid on the table of this House, Now is the minister prepared to do this? MR. SPEAKF.R: MR. HICKEY: The hen. Minister of Rehabilitation and RecreaLion. Mr.

Spe~ker, I do not see any reason that this information cannot be forthcoming at all. I can tell my hon. frjenrl -.•h;Jt is custormary.

\ April 10 , 1978 Tape 752 PK - 3 He>. 11j c. key : r:o::. thre e or f::.ur or five, there '"'-"Te three n ames list:l'd on t ha r. I have infor:: :t!d the House that ~! r- . Syrett: was in fact number one. I can say tha c because I verifi ed that mysel f . I t is cus tcmnr>' rhat a dep\Jty ~~ ini. s ter,or i n his absence an a : ;slst<~n t deputy minister 'ill m ke a recomm i" ndacion of number cn::!, or s me times "'ill not make a recor:~.'!:c.nda t 'ion..

I canno ·t say in thi s particula r ins tance whe t he r here was in fact a ~-rri tten . c.oli'.:Dent on t ha t sheet of par•er or whether rh c:> re was a r eco ll111\end at ion , or r:a.yb e tltl'!re eight have been an oral r ecommenda tion t <' a minister , ,.,hat eve r the ca s e may be . But t h.:.t is hol'l it wor ks . And cert ainly ! wil endcavcur to ge t Lhe infonr.ation and dete rmine just ~,·ho in fa ct made h~ r ecowmcndatiQn . MR . OLAN: Hr . Speaker , a suppleme ntary . ~m . S'?EAKER: h final suppl e~enta ry, and ch en the hon. ember for Windsor-Buch a ns . Mr .

Speak e r , a suppleme ntar ~· to the hon . the -inis t er . We can clear thjs up right no"' if t he. minister will either say j•es or to bs ve that man hireci in his position at Exon Hous e. v e e·re after Tha t is ;.:hat

April 10, 1.~ 7 8 Tapa No. 753 NM - 1 HR. NOI.A!:: and that is -...:hat we want to know: What --··--- pressur•:! i£ any, on him ol" his officials or his colleagues? Or influence to hire this man. l~e are not trying tn blaute the minister. l~e want to kno-w who is respor.sible. The hon. Hinister of Recreation and Rehabilitation. Mr. Speaker, I am well aware of the fact that the gentleman is not trying to blame me because I was not minister at the time. I can certainly say on behalf of rny colleague, that as far as we are concerned, we do not know of any pressure that was brought to bear.

I will endeavour to question that further. And I hope I can convince my non. friend and all his colleagues on the opposite side that we are·as anxious to get this thing over and done with and the air cleared as they are, because there is no attempt, nor has there been, one iota of any attempt to keep anything back. I will endeavour to pin that do~n as well. MR. SPEt~T<..ER: ------ The hon. member for Windsor - Buchans, follo·.;ed by the han. ~ember for Baie Verte - White Bay. }!R. FLIGHT: ------ Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Premier and coming out of the Exon House situation, and I would like to ask the Premier on behalf of his a~uinistration, that when Cabinet or when government authorizes the Public Service Commission to hire an individual who will require technical skills, require professional ~kills, administrative skills, the position itself will have a great deal of responsibility for sectors or for people in our Province, now when the Civil Se~ice Commission, having closed the competition and having reviewed the applicants ·\··..akes a reco::tmcndation to the minister that this is the man we recommend, do not the Public Service Commission forward to the mJnister concerned a list of the three or four people, the top three or four who applied, and does not the minister ask for confi=.ation or :verification as to why, on what basis this particular recommendation was uade?

AnG question the qualifications, or look at, do

AprH 10, 1973 Tape No. 753 NM - 2 HR. FLIGHT: _,hether or not the best intP-r"st of the c,c..·«rr'""'!nt i:; be 'ens obviously we could not hav<! haj a sit1:.:J.l !on lhat apr, lie<~ in Exon House. The han. tlte Premieo::. Hr. Sp~aker, that \-!:.1'> qui;::e a qucstioi,, First of all, Sir, ! wc~ld like to say that of the many hundre.ds that are e,,,plcye.d eacr1 y<·ar - Int.

FL.!_~:_ PRE~~IER .J~0-~__5_: Top people. - the l!l.'lny hun<:!reds uf ;:-':!ople ~ho go through the Public Service Co!llf.lission each yenr, those reco!l\l11cP-dations come in,as t_he minister said, e:i the;: to the ninister, th~ c!eputy minister, the assistant deputy minister, ~.' lo?.tever the case =y be. I might say, Sir, that \.'C have had nc :::-c_:;-,son-we still have none until ~e find out differently- to be critical of the Public Service Commission.

And I might re•~ind the hon. :n.'u'l.' i:r, Sir, Hho prc::.co.bly d:i.c1 m>t have tho:, experience befo:;:-e, that the rc•asot1 th<'.t t.'l~ ru~'lic Service Commission ,;as set t;p in the first. i:'lac?- ~as to take away the political interefe:rence that had been the case before they w•;re set up. MR. lLPEAK~R: A supplementary, one, then the hon. member . for Baie Verte - - ~fuite Bay.

I would like to ask the hon. the Premier, Sir, what time the hon. the Premi_er is going to take whateve1.· disc:lplinary action necessary, or whatt::Vl!r u.ctlon ls ~·!cC ~ :: -:::s~~.ry, a,3.:i.i..nst r:~~ minister who happer.ed to be the minister of that department, the hon. Minister of Health, \lhO has made a fam~ pc.s of Fisheries,· Health - Order, please: Order, please~ MR. ~EAR!: - Rehabilitation and Recreation. ----- Ordl'r, pl"ease: Wha!: ti:oe this u.inL>ter :i.s going to get the flick?

AprH 10, 1978 Tape No. 753 'NH- 3 . 1-n\. ~l - ~~\ ~:::R: --·- --· - - -- . Order, ple a se~ There were so~e inferences a!'!J ,; ~; t.,:c.:nts, which I am sure the hon. gentleman 'Liill agree w-er" '' u~ ,,f order there. ~=- !]_ic:'::i~~"_:_ ~!r. Speaker, let me put the question in another way, ~ir, Could the Premier indicate "hat action if any is going to b•! taken a£ainst the minister who has headed up three departrr.ent:s . . now and has made a proper mess of three government departments1 Or docs t:-~.:: Premier intend to take any ac.tion? ~m. HT·:::.~r~~: ··------ -- Hr. Speaker, to a point of order.

Your Honour hafl jmn: ruled that that kind of i~putation, that kind of question is tc>tcJlJ.y and absolutely out of order. ~m. Ni:~/,!l Y: ----- It is a question. MR. EICl:H'\": -------- It is not a question. It is taking advantage of :he Question Period to try and impute matters that are not prope:r~. y hefore this !louse. MR. SP~A!:~:.:.: ---- -· --- The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ~i.N .. ?..O':J£: --------- -- On the point of orcer, Sir. The hon. Governme.nt Ilouse Lcad;;r is a little l:it touchy today nc has every rilht to be UR.

NE!;,RY: ---- --- HR. \I, :L ROW~: raising sped.ous points of order. ltR. ~:EA::'.Y: ----· ·-- - the things that he has done in the last four or five years. ~ HON. ~ZHBERS: Oh, oh! The hon. gentleman has a right to be touchy. HR. HICKHAN: ------ I have no right to be touchy. MR. NEARY: --- --- The bon. gentleman does have a right to be touchy. Order, please~ Only one person has the right to the floor and that is the hon. Leader of the Opposition. There you go, Sir, they cannot keep order even when there is a point of order before Your Honour.

Sir, the question asked by cy hon. colleague, the Opposition House Leader, !s ~hen the Premier is going to take

April l 0,, ~978 Tape No. 753 NM - 4 MR. W.N. ROWE: cert~in disciplinary measures against a m:!.nlster, perceived by us and b;• the public, to toe inr.oopetent, and negligent in his duties. Hear, hear! :HR. W.N. ROWE: Now what question, Sir, coulc be more appropriately

April 10,197G :~i-:.Q!.'l:: ~shec..! of a ti.!inisLry or .:1 c;o-"'(:rrr::;!!:tt thHtt ti.h" C" qucstlCJn,I .sul.:i::lt to rules a1:d rc.t;ulations of this !louse aud it is in 110 ~;~t:J' cut of orJer. qucstion"r..o ~r~umcut or op:L.:.:io'!l is to be offered r..o::- any [;:1c:: state::~ e:- : ~...·ept so far as it rany be Ol1.cc.ssary to c~p!~in tile sa r:a:~! 1 Cne \-7ou1d :1~r'"'·l.,; to re~c.rd the han. gentler::Hn's state:.aent ~s a stat.e.tJ.c.nt of opinion and :In the str let application of tl1c · Stund in~ Cruet he s:10ulrl de:~; is~ answers occa,;iono:lly a superfluous ~o:oru or pl,rase crcepc; in Lut I think ones of that ki..ad CJf juU6cr.lL:i.lt si.1ouli.l be ~uc:irde~ :..bc1i:1.st. !·a"!.

NEI'~Y: now tiw.t l.'e :1ave the he:;. liinister of Justice :,il.::nced? I th.:nll~ Your l!onour icr rulir,£ t~c !ton. 2Ci.~tlc: ; . ~ ~i. ~l out of orC:cr. to b~ taker: s.:;ainst t:t~ bon. r.1inistcr t.1:1o is proL:1~ly civic: tlac :. .oj~ SOc IE UO:I. : ::s: ffiERS : l:!ear, hear! PRF.:!IE~ : :oo:u:s: A mar~ wl.oc I h:;.vc t:;e: utuost conficlen::c in,Sir, lt would be just the same as ::1e asking the Leader of t:1C Opposi~ion when he is ;;oing to give the flick to t::.e House Leader of the offi<;i.ll )pposition. It would be the sa= as the :1on. nember for . Durgeo-:3~y d'Espoir( !-!r.

Sii:Imons) saying w:1en can I give a flick to the han. t1H~ ,l!:'ader bec:mse the liouse LeaC:cr is c!o::~iu::ting the: llou:; ·:! anc ~:P. are not getting ;;.n Oi'portunity to pcrfom, It would be the !O=e, Sir, I suzgest as the indepencellt memter frc;a Port de! GrilVC (11:.::. Dil~o·

e) saying - ~ill.. F. RQ;.,'E : . A point of order. .HI{, SPEAKER: A point of order l~s come up • HR.!'. RO\:E: llr. Speaker. the Pre:nier i:> entcriag the real~• of !Ill.. SPEAKI:R: I think "t.l~ san1e rullag I mt::de a mor.J·=nt ago

Apr 11 l 0,1 'J73 Tare :~o. 7 Sis ero~.t· 1 ,,.,,,.~. o------ ··---·- to~~·~:!.::.:.: Your Ho .. lOL!T, I certaiul:. :• ~.r~.!-= :J.r.d I , ..... L ~ I li2.vc a 'iUeo:Hiun for t.lr~ : •lnl;uor of Labour an.U ~.:anpowcr. lklve been on strike ~g~i;-tst Acivoc~~c !~il!E:S Limite-:! r;u~/ for abo .. ~~ eight or nine. t:ceks.., . .:!Ud tht'!

Ti.linister and the HoL\SL· l:~r~ <J.lso .,;1.:.s~::' t~1at tile. key issue in the strike is r:.ot i:ilonetary isS"..!l:s but oc::u~· · . .:~c.n .. · . .i how his depi:!rt:r.ent ar.d the ;;cv ... rn•••ent \:ot:ld vieu :1roy efforts l,y AJ.voc::1tc ~rines to rcsu.:tc ~roductio~l ~t t:u!ir plant -~~: ~:.de Ve::!..o;... by utili<:ing staff pcrsonr.el for productloil purpos<es? HR .. SPEA.:<..t..R: ------ <IR. l:'.Ot;SSL!..F: ~ir. SpeaJ..cr, ~s far as I if,] cCtJCErn.::.:.~ prccecdurcs, took a l<,gal strike vote, ::.:rc lezally out C'i""l str:_;.c:. I do not l:now;that; is a hypothetical question.

Er.cd.us.; I •muld ;!c~,;, that-! have the report from the last set of meeti~C!'. I <ll!l ho?:i :•; that t;~1is week :aay!Je talking to both sides there ~:iight be the pr,s,;i'bility of a further initiative. I would think that tncre would be a damping of the relationship across the table if either side resorted to any action that "~."ould . put the other side in a situation that it all lmow>as th<: Advocate Cocpany and ti1c miners lu.:o1-:, and the people of this Province, ti1at tile thing is soi ng to be over sooner or lacer.

We .. -auld rather have it over sooner but any action night participate a Lluch longer strike ;mel that we do not 1o1ant.

Ta pe ~~o . 7 'j lj A!t-3 A S\!pplet:~:lC.UY • Sir , I a~,; r cc 1.·lth c.tc ::~iaiscc::- the: t,uestio:t is ilypot:\ct::ical but it is v-c.ry real in i>oic 1.• rtc t.t!.s weekend <J:~<I \o:eek . \ntn t I ~.:ant t o kno·.; is i~ th e td:lister ca:-~ tell u:e ~o.•hot a c:!.c.:t can t:he zoverro.::tent t ake if ol co::~j)c:ty ~cc iC.:c s -tl:c u . .lo:l !.s or. a lega l stt'ik c, it :l;?.s bce:t upiacld i>y ::he Sc;H·c:r.e Cou!"t and s o on- w:Hlt ac tion c<:..1 che c;o,·err-.:;:cnt take to stop a j)OI.tier :-c:y frc::1 i:c.i :t: lit on t!1e picket lino..s in ~ai c Vcr ~ e i: tds co;;:F.:tuy in :~ct :.:1.1:: ~~tl :• uses its staff :nct~ben:; to s::ar:: j)rc:!uction ,no ma tter ho'..• 5!1<.1! : hat prorluc t iO•I o ight oe?

I 1o'ilJ. t rj· a m.:

Ap~il 10, 197~ Tape 755 EC - 1 !!P-. !Wl'SSFAU: be as honest v:ith the nember as I can - persu.,:d on, obviously, is the only uay, hut you knc"·7, '-li t'!-t respect to a concrete ans~er to your question, I really could not ann~er it and I want tc talk that over with my collengue, the Hir.ister of '(ines and Energy, and r.<y colleague, the ~linister of Justice. I clo not knal·l what I can do.

Persuasion I do know, bt!t outside of that I certair.ly would not want to say -~thing - because as the bon. n:et:~ber sugre" ted, it is a pmvder keg, and I would not want to say somethinp, that mif?ht or might not be correct. So I would get together with the Hinister of Hines and Energy and the }!inister of Justice and discuss t'"te situation. MR . SPF.A'-:ER: The hon. menber for Burgeo - nay d'Espoir. MR. SI!rto;-;s: Are you on a suopleMentary? Yes. I will yield for a supplementary. The: hc:1. zr.e~~e-r for 'I' err.::. ~:cvtt,. a. supplementary. tffi..

LUSH: Following the same line of t~ou~~t, the strikes, I am >:'Ondering if the t!dnister can brief the Po use ~,;it~ respect to develop1i1.ents in Labrador 1-lest,particularly in view of the fact that Wabush Hines have announced that they will have to lay off their men and close down operations, I think it is April 17th? Could the minister tell us what the situation is and what he intends to do about it? The hon. the Hinister of I.ahour <m•1 !!anpower. ltR. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, the Iron Ore Company of r.anada operation at Labrador City as well as the one at Sept Iles is on a legal strike.

Talks resumed last Tuesd~y, I believe it was, 0 Tuesday or l~ednesday, and ~hey broke off on S:mdays yester2.ay I g'.less r it was 1 late Saturday or early Sunday. I understand there will be a situation. At this point in time the only thing t.""tat I .::an s<~.y is

April 10, 197S Tape 755 HR. !~0USSE.!\lf: that the ~onciliatlo~ ~fficers are available. And ;~e :nust rcmc,"'ber one tl:ing, ~[L Spezd .£:r, ,,;-;.;! ':0:1. rncr.6crs of t1~~ l~ou~e, ann peopl c of this r rc.•v i~c:~..,, th.:?r t~.: ~- ·; i sor.·_ .. ~~o:.~-, can come up to <my government ar.d tell then: tbere is " !": t t<!r rrocE'ss than collective bargaining, then that is the cnc >re hrl'.'..?. to u::e.

I suggest to the T'ouse that hec:ause of. the ir:1portance, n-:- ·.: less or r.10rt?., but because of the grent nu11ber of people t>mp1oy~.~ !n t'hat <;re.~ I have put r-:y deputy minister, my director of ld:our :n:"111: ;ons in as conciliation officers. They are the top pcor1c in my clc-f'~rtr.ent. We have M.et and net Rnd met continuously, e~p<!c. ially <'. t t.'1P. I rem Ore Company operation at Labrador City.

I sugr.cste~ when 1 taJ kP-rl recently about it that there are complications because of the fac-.t that t!lcre are three conciliations really going on - the fed~ral on~ recause of the interprovincial railvay, the one in Quehcc and the• e:-;.; :in our Province. '!y m«n is ready to ~o back right no1-1 if I hrc to send "-lim b.ock, if they dicl var.t to go back to the ta~lc. I aT.1 t1ot ir. ~ pcsi ti en to say to the union or the cor.tpany, you do tb-!.s or you r:io ~nat. This is a collective har!'!aining process.

Some til:''"" a collcc: cjvc agreement is reached without a stril~e, sometimes it t;;~:es n short ~t=ikc, so:-~eti,..,es it takes a long strike. Obviously, the union feels very strongly about the things it feels that zre necessary to conclude a collective agreer..'nt; obviously, the compa!lY feels also that they can only give so cuch, and they feel very strongly about it. All I can say :f.s that the conciliation process collective bargaining will continue.

Hy people are on stand-by ready to go back at ar.y time and mc('t with them and ~..-e t!ill jnst have to vait , for a few days now, because the talks just broke off, as I s~y, on Saturday or Sunday, and give both sides a c~ance to look at t1leir positions - I think some progress was made - and then during the "~<~eek \:e will have to tnake a decision on just where we go from here.

Tape 755 EC - 3 Or.nr.! ~ S OF TilE nAY }m. IIICIQ'.Ii!l : Notion 5. l'o ion, t~ t1 ho, . t ht1 ' i:1!ster ;Jf Rch<>l)ilit.ation an<i Rec raat:io n to introduce a bill , "An Ace espr.:cring 1'he P.ehabilitation Of Ois;~blerl Perso:-:s ," ( ili. :\o . 1 7), Cilr r;i.ed . On motion, Bil l ~o . 17 , read a first tir:>e, order ed r e.r; a second tirr.c o:t t o orro l . On motion that the llouse r esolve itself ir.to Co= i tee of th e l·.nole . l~r . Speaker left c:he Chair . C0:·?-1lTIIT fiF t !E !·J:rOL" 'HR . ClTAll'.!-!A/1: (Dr. Collins) Order, plu.se !

Hea ding y, La our an<i 'la n;:>o;:.;,r pa ge 23. 'i'he hon. he ~ :in t ster cf a:-our and !anpower . ite ms obviously that co uld be iliscussed i n :rry o per.ing ren a-ks on <:he Departmen t of Labour and : . .anpo1-er . So:r.e ! may or may r.ot /',et a c?tance to tal k about in the introductory r e.tr.arks , but I t hink it

Ai.lr! l 10, .I ':1 71~ Tape 756 PK - 1 importnnt that the majority, if not all of my th:,?,he sr·•'''t ru the quest jon of occupational health and safet:y.

I think <!!J L;,, t~1o hot•.rs g•J by there may he other points that the hon. l~c·;r1w~s may "':lilt -co 1 alse, and I may have an opportm1it;• before my L· .. ,~n·.y mimtte"' ar~ up to say a fe1,r ~hings about a fel·l But I think because of the very important to?ic3.l and relev:>nt cc•neept of occupational health health and safety, thnt I have to s ta~1.tl up for two hOllrs and take it on the chin, and rightft:lly so because 1 think it is a matter that all members of this hon. House think that is, as I say, very relevant and very topical at this point in time. AN RON. HP1HCJc MR. ROUSSE,\U: }'ardon? AN HON.

HErFll."r': (Inaudible). ~ffi. ROUSSL.-".U: I cannot hear you. AN flO:\'. HE~!l'.F.R: Can I brinl!, it ovP.r? }iR. ROUSSE!11.': -···---·---- .. ~- Obviously 1 have to say so;:nc-ching abou;: it. I am not gc::!r-.g to steal anybody' s thunder. I am sure that hon. members across the Hruse will have some pertin_ent and constrt.:ctive suggestions to make. Mr. Chairnan, I thin~ it is fairly correct: to say that the question of occupational health and safety or the impact and the relevance of it relatively speaking has become of great importance over the last number of years.

I do not know· the hon. member for LaPolie (Mr. Neary) was the acting.Minister of Labou~, I believe,thC' iast yenr nf that adminjstration. I would think he might: agree that although there were individual items, t.he concensus snd the imp:!ct of the question of occupational health and safety was not in 197G-1971 as great and as topical as it is today. I think even in 1972 and 1973 H started to piece together. I think all of us probably were not aware of the impact of the St. Lawrence situation,which is really the one that brought it to the fore in this

April 10, 1978 Tape 756 PK - 2 MI'. RousseC\u: Province. 1 have liv<:d in T.ahr~dor City for a number of years, since 1962, and I know that occupational health Rnd safety was of prime concern there. I think the concern '".:1s mare locally \;ith:in the town. 1 am certain that there were concern . ..; at Arivc•caL.e M:i.nes, at St. L.:~,.,Tence, and l!tany other mines. But then all of a sudden in the early 1970s, I think, probably the seeds were being formulated in 1970-1971-1972) the question became onF. of very great importance in this Province. We must also ret~.eutber, Mr.

Chzirman, that at that point in time there were a number of agencies responsible for occupational health and safety -the Departr.~.:ont of Health, the Department of Nines ar,d Energf, the Department of Labqur, and various agencies as well, the Workmen's Compensation Board, the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro, and also the Department of the Environment. It is very difficult, Mr. Chairman, under the best of times in gcvernrr .eut circles to get a handle on some things, bu L it is even more difiicult tc get a finger on it.

In 1972 and 1973 I think there was a concern expressed by this government on the whole question of occupational health and environmental health services and safety in this Province. I think,to put it in perspective again,the first concrete step was taken in April of 1973 when a Dr. Mastromatteo was retained by the government to review the existing situation and prepare specific recommendations on the objective cost and organization of such service.

I thjnk at that time the concept of one u:nbrella department or division was being conceived in the minds of officials, government and the workers across this Province. The main recoomendation that came as result of this st~dy was that the Province provide the authority,staff and resources within the Department of Health to meet the needs of Newfoundland in dealing with the questions of occupational, environmental health and safety. As a result,of course, s0rnctimcs during 1973 the De partment of Health in s titulec..l tile Divi~kn

April 10, 1978 rr: - 3 Hr'. Rousseau: ------- Thi.s .st:J.r.ted tu ~;•) health and sufcty~ and di.vis1ons still inv.:>lvc,i in the qc.c._:' .. h n. later,there were two briefs sub:~ittcJ t0 gov2~r1ment, Ri:J L}.ey were specifically related to the: mining inGu.~. t !'"";-; one ,-:as

April 10, 1978, Tape 757, Page] - - <ljJU MR! ROUSS:O:!\U: from the- United Stc··:< 1- workers of America >Jhich I thin k i r: ~-,::- o b.:~bJy the: union which has been in the forefront of the fight iv:­ occupational health and safety. Jointly th~ stec 1 ~~~k8rs at the various mines across this Prnvi~ce, and t~ey have organized in almost all instances excqJ~, I think, St. Lawrence 1 '1-lhich is CNTU ,and Daniel's Harl:.<:>~•r, ',>h ich is United Carpenters and Joiners.

I thiZlk all oth;~r mines and mining operations are dealt with by the U:1i ted Stecol­ workers of America, and also by a joint brief from the Canadian Confederation of Trade Unions, the CN'i'U, and the St. Lawrence Workers' Protective Union. ~ubsequer.tly, to t~0se two major inputs, on the question of occupational i:leal th o.nd safety, a Cabinet Committee was set up - MR. NEARY: Would th,= ministr,r. permit? }1R. ROUSSEAU; MR. NEARY: Yes. I would like to mm:·::! that the= Conunittee rise and report no progress. Ne h<~ve no confidence in the government and we cannot pa~s the estimates. AN HON. MEr.ffiER: ~.R.

CHAIR!>lAN: Sit down! It has been moved that the Committee rise, report some progress and ask leave to sit again. Those ].n favour "aye", contrary "nay", in my opinion the "ayes" have it. MR. SPEAKER: MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Chairman of Corr~ittees. Mr. Speaker, the C~nmittee of the Whole have considered the matters to them referred, made some progress and ask leave tc sit again. On motion report received and adopted, Corr.mittee ordered to sit again presently.

April 10, 1978 1 Tape 757, Vage 2 -- apb z.m. NEARY: Jotr. Speaker, vlha t I •,.;ar. t to know from Your Honour is - I do not know if it is right to ask Your Honour for a ruling or not - once we take a vote in the Cmnm.ittee of the Whole that the Committe~ rise, then the Chaio 1an of Co~~ittees reports to Your Honour, then who can then vote in that vote when it is taken, Sir, just the members who were in attendance, present when the Con~ittee rose? And does not the House then have to automatically adjourn, Sir? Is that not. a vote of non-confide!lce in the government, Sir?

The fact that the Opposition rises the Co~~ittee, Sir, and the Chairman reports back to Your Honour 1 does that not mean that the House hc.s to then adjourn to a;1ai.t further isntructions? And who will be allowed to vote? Only those meml::ers who were in the Corr.rni ttee \•:hen the Corruni t tee rose, Your Honour? MR. SPEAKER: With respect to the vote in Committee, I think it "!O'.lld be inappropriate for :ne to make any co~nent there because I am not the presid2ng officer. That would be inappropriate.

With respect to now that the report has been made what may happen , then obviously the Government House Leader calls whichever order he wishes, legislation, or the Address in Reply, or indeed, to go back into Committee. That would be the next procedure. Actually the Standing Orders or the Authorities do not talk about vote of confidence in that sense because that is more of.a constitutio!lal matter than a House of Assembly matter.

Certainly after the question has now been put the Chaiman has reported prog~ess and now it is up to the Government House Leader to call whatever order, whether it is the same one or a different one. MJ't. NEi\RY; point of order. If I may, Mr. Spc~ker, on a )-()]

April 10, 1978, Tap <: 757, Pc.ge 3 -- a!,Jl.> MR. SPEAKER: A point cf order, MR. NEARY: Nr. Sp.::akcr, 'the motion that I made was i.hat the Cll;:l.i.:r::;,an of Co.r.::L; t'.:t.=Es report to Your Honour - the Chili r;nn did not ;c._.i:lo;::t actually the motion that I mad e - re~ o rt tc Y0~ r Honour that we have no confidence in the goverrun2n+;, that we not pass the estimates and th<!t th2 !louse ac1j<:> ~Jr.n. No•,., that >;-ras the motion that I m:~de, Your Honou .r, a:1d the Chairman did not report that motion to Your Fc;:10ur.

No"' the tapes can verify the moticn that I ~ade, Sir, Your Hon \n1 r, the Chairman reported that the Committee had mud·" sorre progress and asked leave to sit aguin. That was not the motion, Sir. The motion \vas a vote of non-confid.: ·nc e in the go·o~er:m11ent and the members on thh~ sirJe outvoted the government members and the Corrunitt.P.c Chairman did not report the motion that I made to Your Honour, J want to dra\o; that to Your Honour's attent i o~. MR. SPEAKER: I think I should hear from the hon.

Chail:rnan of Committees because he pn;,sumably knm·ls more about it than any - "''ell, as leost as much about it as anybody else. l<IR. CHAIPJ.1AN: Mr. Speaker, the question put . \O the Committee was tha~ the Committee do rise, report progress and this was the question reported on. If ! misunderstood the hon. member in putting the motion that is a different r.1atter.. Som ,~t.;;-:- <:• s ,._.hen ;notions are put there are phrases added to them that ~ think it is q~ite self-evident they are not to be taken seriously.

Whether there was a misunderstanding on my part when the member made the motion, I am not too sure.

Ap-.:11 10, 1~78 Ta;.•e No. 758 NM - l D~. COLLl;:~ - ·-· --- - ·-- Co".mittee :;'w·~l'l rise, s!1o'.!] d !:·::;>crt pro~res!; <•.nd ask le.avc to sit <12.ain ar.d tl. i z •.-as tile qu'=E ticn that I put to the CorrJait tee, which u~s p3ssed and ~:is is th~ question that I reporc to Your Honour. The hen. t::cmber for Gran-i Falls, then I will hear th~ ho""l. ~!r. Spe.al·.er, I "~<•as present in the l!ousc, as ton. members ~~il1 know, wht::l the suggestion l.'as made by the han. House Leader.

A.'1d I claarly got the impression that it '-!as a ploy sort of to €Y.!Ja<:c the government for not having enough meubers in here, or h3v.i ;:g fewer merJbe.rs tha.Tl he would like to see, and I have seen this dt'D" quite a nun:b<=r of time, and clearly the motion that w::lS put was a rr.c tion which i~cj cated that the r.ommi r- r .... rise, and rep~rt -I beliP.ve the member said no progress. }[.~. NEARY: No progress. Hl. LUNDUGAX: -------- ·- All right, and then he "'<:nt on - 1-!1-:. ~;EARY: No confidcnc.~ l~~ .. LUND~IGAt;: ------- No. Kc•. There is no such thing as no conf;!.der:ce, 1-:r. Speaker.

And sc.condly, Nr. Speaker, perhaps more importantly, Your Honour, that I believe if Your Honour docs a little looking into procedure - and I understand that we are masters of our ~~ House here, but nevc·ctheless -we do have to look to other jurisdictions in ,Ottawa and in London for some guidance- that you will find that in the Co~ttee it is a relaxed environment. The rules are very flexible.

That I have seen on quite a number of occasions when there has been Co=itt.ee activity av: the ctl·:l·l- ji.rciF<C:icUcn tbu.t I am fairly familiar 'l"ith, '1Ji1cn there would be feHer members, and there \oo'Ould be if~;, and ands, and buts backs and forth across the !louse, and never did that kind of a move, n~ver was it ever taken seriously, that it is a procedure which the ~ember used today to suggest that members should get back in their seats. It. is almost the sa::ne as - what is the procedure you use vhen there is rer,ul ;;r d!'!J,> tP. for call tng in the member? Gall a quoru:ll.

April 10, 1978 Tape No. 7S8 l\:·i - 2 . Mn. L~DRlG!u.~: Alraost th~ S<lwc typ e of p r ocedure. Anc ec~ta:!nly t' , . .! rncillb~r cannot be serious. C~rtainly he cann.Jt be serious ~; : ·. e!l he stands up here vhen the estit:1a~es of the hon. ~!inister of L;:.\,our are being debated and suggest-; that that kind of a move shoulC: constitute a vote of non-confidence. ~!r. Speaker, that is t:.hc kind of thin·g which is giving the House the kind of im;J.ge that it dof:.s not deserve to have. And I think the member sh.o'.lla be a little bit taare serious than that.. To that point of order, Hr. Speaker.

As you kr'.G'.l, Your Hcnour, I was the one 'Who made the IllOtion that the Comuitte~ rise, and the m9tion that I made, Your Honour, was not the one that the Chai:rl'ilan just repeated again to Your Honour. And my hon. friend from Grand Falls (~!r. Lundrigar.) is closer to the motion th a t I made, except my hon. friend did not finish the Llotion that I made. And here is the motion t!1at I made. I said, I move tha: the Committee rise, report no progress, that the government not be given their esir-..a.tes, that we ha•·e no confidence :in the govcn::: r.t:nt. That motion was put and passed, Sir.

And I do not knml, Hr. Spc;ak£>r, ~- : :; ~ you have to do to create a vote of non-<:onfidence in the governnent ti1-:'r' that. Tnat is spelled out. ~~d the fact that the government did not have enough members in their places, Sir, in the Iwuse - MR. W.N. ROWE: They got caught with th~ir pants do~. MR. NEARY: That is right. My hon. friend says they got caught with their pants down. They got caught with their political pants down. And so they h;1-ve been outvoted. Now the Co~~ttee rose, Mr. Speaker, and then I would assume, after that, the natural procedure then is for the !louse to adjourn. MR.

HICK11A.~: No. ~lo. MR. NEARY: Oh yes, yes, yes. The han. Minister of Justice does not make the rules. The hon. }tinister cf Justice is not a constitutional expert. And I would like for Your Honour to hear the tapes because it was a motion.

'i:!pC :;o . 7 58 No . Tid.s ic: a ve r y scri.ous m<tttcr . T!l!.5 is :;r. ~ _:,,;.;c all li ':)' J.ike.. It is •• ,c't:iOu•· metter . ~:~ __ s_;:r:§..-:,E.:'L. t!J~·~~:.'-S : ~lr . Sptu':t:., "<'Ul' Honour $;,ould Sl!nd !or tl.c !ne hon. lll•'dl:er for Kilbride . !·lr . Sp c11ker , the hon . m!!mber is en t irely .... · r .m~ in •..thMt l•c ~ s:lyi~g . He ~ny~1 th<\t his motion was that th;, Cc•::..-:11 ttcc ri::e, t'Cporr no pro~rcss and tha: t he !louse has \~ell he can r.:ove that t he ~c.· .... :-:!.r: cce ris.: . i:hnt is his J l31

Ap:cll l~, 1~7fl 'l'apc 75!) E ~ - l }!R. l·"'l.LS: Rigl1t, and if the vote is tai~er. then the Committee r i ses. !<o<-', in Co ~ :r.ittee you c<lnnot r:ove a rnot 5. on of non-con fir1(·nce. P.ear, he2r! MR. HELLS: A motion of non-confidence can o:1l~· be 1o1oved to the House as a whole >-'hen Your Honour or his deputy is in the C!,air, not in Co!!:C~ ittee. So the hof'l. member's !l'otion at that sta ge and th:~t part of it was ccmpletely and utterly out of order. The Chairman did the only thing that he could do.

He recognized the only part of tl1e motion th<>t l<as legitimate and he put the vote to rise t1--.e Co=ittec, but any other vote at tha.t stage ~-TOuld have been completely out of order. ~{y understanding as to what happens then is the \.or1nit tee has then risen, Your JTonC>ur goes back in the Chair, and then screeboc!y, whoever has enough votes to carry it, 1:'\0Ves that we go into Conr.ittee again if the r.overnr;Jent Pcuse Leacler lvants to rlo t!lat.

If othen~is'1, then .somebody r.1oves 1-1ho cat, carry it by vot.:;s that •.Je gc on to other ~u-.i.ncss, and if ~;e do, that is finr:. !:ut that is the procedure and no ·govcrn: :ent was ever defeated in a VC'te of non-confi~ence ~y Cor.:c.:!.ttee. The •;hole .thing is ridiculous to even suggest it, Your c'onour. SO'fr. HON. !·!F!IT:ERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEAf\Y: Mr. Speaker, td th~t point of order, as usual, my hon. friend vas not in his seat when the vote of non-confidence - AN Hml. HE?-ffiER: ~fR. SPEAKFR: t!R. HY.LtS: tffi. Sl'I:i\i\El-:: point of privilege. MR. WELLS: That is right. ~ Order • please! }!r.

Speaker, oo. a point of privileRe. The hon. m:mbcr for Kilbride,on a It vas ruled last year by Your Honour sitting in that Chair that it is not a function of members of this Ticuse of As&cmbly to comment on other members whether they happen to be out in the corridor or not in their seats at a given time. We, all of us, el.se £rom time to time and that is accep:ed ··

Ap:t;il 10, 1978 Tape 759 r.c - 2 SO'l'E l'il~:. ~Tl'Ilfl(S: Oh, oh! HR .. Srr.!\KLR: ------ Order, ple~sc: Order, plena~! HO:. P2:>.LS: T~w hen. Sncil!:cr ~<1.S ru1 ''-'' tk:..t ----- that is out of order and we are back ag:dn to the s:::tme old trick that he has tried, Hr. Speal:er, time after tim.o, tir1a after time, ienor~>.J the ruling the point of privil ef,e being - AN 110:1, 11F"'11ER: (Inau_di!Jle) MR. liTELLS: Will the hon. member sit down? Fe does not make all t:1e rules in the House. HR. l'lf.ARY: Neither does the hen. me.r1ber.

HR. \-.'ELLS: You knot!, Your Honour, it is b<:co:;,i.r.cg increasingly difficult for anyone to make a point or have any se:rious discussion in this 'louse without the mouth of that particular hen. r.emloer going. ! m.. lTP.AP.Y : Sit rlotvn, boy, and (inaudible). ~!R. 1-J'F.Ll.S: You know, he ~as to learn sooner or later or he tdll turn this House into a shambles, Your Fonour, Yo1.1 see, I am speaking to the Chair, properly, correctly and respectfully, ancl what happens? Improperly. MR. WELLS: Well, that is for His Honour to decide.

What happens is that there is a continual tirade of all sorts of irrelevancies from the membe.r in question, and that is leading to more difficulty, ll'.ore problems and more loss cf respect for this House than any other single thing I can think of, Your Honour. Rear, henr! }!R. ';o.'EUS: Somewhere, somebody has to call a halt - MR. NEARY: C~ out, boy (inau~ible). ~!R. HELLS: You see? Somew~ere, somebody has to call a halt, Your Honour. No other point- MR.

NF~RY: Do not be so angelic. l<e know wha= is hurting the _hon. gentlema_n, The hon. 'gentleman got the dart from me last summer anc! he has not gotten o•.•er it yet.

Ap::;il 10, l'J78 Tape 759 EC - 3 Mr~. HE!.LS: Sr!c, Your i!onour? Somewhere, somcon~ ;,~. ,; to call a !wit, Your llo!10I:r, o:: the Hon,<e IVill not be a Hr. Speaker, a pcint of order. Or~cr, please! Order, please! Before I recognize the hnn. gentle:r .. :m on the point of orl!er, the hon. gentlmr .. tn to my left c\itl rise on a po:lnt of privilege.

I do recall having ruled last year to the effect, and I quoted MaY at the tin1e, th<:t there are in all profes::ionr. certain courtesies ~.;hich people extend one another and that it i» irregular in the Legislature for hon. mer.>bcrs to cor.1mer.t upon the absence of their colleagues. I 'Would point that out to all hon. gcntlencn. I recognize the hon. nemher on the point of orr!er and I think then I ¥7il] be in a positi on to rule on :it. t1r.

Speake~, the original po;nt o f order t:1at I raised is that I asked Your Fonour 's advice 1 I put r. 1 y~el f in Your !1onoar's hancs in connection \f:ith those who can vote. Onci! t'.c Chairman of Committees rct;o rts to the Fouse, then who can vote, Sir'? Does the Speaker then call in members? Can any!Jody then wander in off the street: and vote, like the hon. l!!ember for Kilbride (Mr. Wells) wandered into the House? Could the hon. me1r.ber for Harbour Grace {l!r. You:~g), the hon. rr.eriber for St. John's East Extern (~!r.

Rickey) and all these gentlei<len that w2ndered in, or only those, Sir, who were in the House whe-n the= r.'='n.-,:Jttc-E" rose? ~:o•., tnat :ls the key - lffi.. HIC!Ct-L-\1·:: (Inaudible) HR. NF.AF.Y: I beg your pardon? ~r.nWl: That is right. }!R. NF.,\RV: Only those who are in the House? MR. 'RICK.!'<Nl: when the Committee rose. MR. F. 'P.ti\·TE: Re is going to have to be a lit tie

Apr il lf• , j CJ iS ~ t he street , o:- o;,l y those \.'ho ~o.·ere in t!lc Hous e •1he~ ! ' •·: (',, ~ ,-:- .; ::~ <'·'. r ose? First of all, the hon .I'\Ctob<>: for Trinit.y - 1::y de Ve,-.:<. (' 'r . :" . ;. ·:; is r eflecti ng on the hen . r:on'>!.ttee Chai r ror .. n vhcn he. ~·•:·s >c !'.h()••' c n10re objectiv e . This is rcttins.: a litt le> 1.>:.:: out of h:-r. ' !tl :- t•, . ., r ., •· n ot~ . I have never seen i t hapr en before - A roJ nt of ?rivil £-:·r. . HR. F. POh'f.: . _,_· ,..,.. ... . .. ' }lr . Speaker, and the hon . me~:~•· e r cam'\Ot ge t u:> on anot' : · r poir:: o .- or~cr lit the f'l'esen t t i ll'e.

/ Apr5.1 ld, 1978 .t-iR. J. Lt! , ;;mu;,·~~: it before whert;! members, lton. r:.0rr.bc;-!) c;..rn s t.:1:.•J !.. :' .:.n : :t:! Lc~i..:;Jo.n:.H~ ~ .! anrl ask Your Honor to clear u:,J this r·o ;,~c ;~iv" , .. ;t:: or··;at1.o:1 uil ti..1t .. .... that 111e1nbers have to give up using lo t:rh!..,al ra.:.:s - l'...:C."'~~~ .. H:! Your tior.o~.- ~nrJ tl~c Commit tee ChairrJan .\ave a pleasant way :in a.J:nini~ L.!·:u .. ~ ~1g tn•; rul~-; r:-f t~H~ .i:icus(: mel!lber just cannot stand and say'Your Ilor:.or I wa~.l t" ·,,nut the rul.::s ur.::~ l'hat is his business to learn the n;lc>. . ~lR. J.

LU.,uJUCA.~: If is q~,;estioning ther!l impt·opcrly than lw ":ill be ~':;.;[ t.. ; c,~ ·.1iti1 Yc.u:: Ho::.•Jl'':> ruling. I have had to lt:<Jrtl tllc rule.> over a po·10J c•f yeare;. I <•nl;- L-ww maybe one out of a dozen no•...r ancl I aru sat.is(iccl to i'e et:!:..Ja.rass..:d ~;o·J~~u l stand up and -~o not the rules> but you car.-not stan 1 > ~::·.

Sp~Pi~.:cr; i~'l ::ot:r is very improper,and I have 'WaLchec! tlds i:l tli(! l;:o.Gt [., .. , cays lL'Cre :,·~·.(,::e two or three of the members across the ~-ay <:{re ciJ<;I.l.:•~t;in!; tl1c auL:,o.-ity of tne Cbair,osking and avi)calin~ rulings, C:!xpres~iu?, lac.k of ccn£idc.n.-:c in the Chair that is the easiest way to destroy lh~ Ler,islature. Z..iR.

SPEAKER: I am quite sure we are aow in a position to pro.cec,d, The hon, gentleman on a point of order did ask vho could vote ~.:hen I called that motion which h<l.S already been put,and the motion is that I leave the Chair.Everybody who is here com vote on that. lt would not t.!ake any cliffcrt!nc. ~ if tt •~y 'w'Z:~f: a\:·t t·L·r~ ::(•:1 !7"!1-..ll'tc~; c.~:.o il!l,! everybody who is here can vote on that.

Dealing, with the overall Liatter, it was reported to• me that a notion was made that t:he Co;nrJitee rise? report progress-no progress,little progrees~whatevcr progress-and ask leave to sit again.Ihat was the report that I received.Ho~..· ti1e hon. gentl.:;nan did bring up that he thought that that report was innccurate lecause he had addc:d something to the effec-t •and the House has no confidence in the govern• it; number two~and of course the det::ision \.'Ould h;n•e to be made not by me but

April 10, 1978 Tape 760 nw - , such an addendu m to the motion to rise,report ~rc~rcss would ~e i n order or lie relevant to what was then bcir;:. dellat<..G ~llc. to t l a~ ~.utio n to ri,;e. znai-:.e no decision on that.l!otocver, the ruotion <:~s report~eu to tn~,·the Cor.:mitte rise,report progress,ask leave to sit again,' I put the motion, titat itas l •L c' :l voted on,and now the GovernL1e~t House Leader has called Cor.nni tee of Supply and the procedure for · me now is to say,' Th< n,ol:ion is tlta .t I do ]eave the Caair,' and everybody present may Yote on ti<at.:; 0 I put it:tlte L1otion is that I :io leave the Chair. lhose in favor "Aye~' smx nu.-1 . :-J::~'JJ£RS: "Aye" NR.

SPiAK.ER: Contrary "Nay" SO~~ t!O ... .Z. ~a::rUSERS: 11Nayn ER. SPEAKER: lly opinion the "Aye's" have it. HR. S. NEARY: l!r. Ci1aiman, a,point of order, NR. CHAIR}C..t\N(JJR. COLLii\5): Order, please! If I xr.ay cc p<=nnit ted to r:c.ke a remark before calling tite next order in COllll:litt~'-!. To clarify.

Ci;e ::;itu.::. · tion t~1at cam~ up a suort tit.te a£o, I ••auld like to .inform t;l., Co:::1:1itt<.!.;: t<~.:tt ttlt! i:IOtion I put,ti,e question I ]JUt to t~H; Cc.:u,titte ~o~as tlt;it Cite Co~:;:.i.tLo.:·~ , report pro!l,rcss and asked n:e to sit ac;ain.:>iow when ti1e Conu:Jittee votes it is on: the question put.If an hon. n:ember ri::;es in his place and e12kes a motion,that !!lOtion may or may not be in order,.\.."ld it is up to the Chair to decide whether the motion 1:1ade is in order oi: not,and the:1 the Chair puts the particular question that the Col!llllittee is asked t.c vote on .In this partic:.;lar instance a motion was made and going by the very clear precedents in .the Housc,within my relatively limited experience in the Col!lL1ittee,but aho ~;cin;; on the basis of conversations I have had with various individuals dealinb with· the Uouse,going on thos'! precedents my understanding is that a r:~or.ion to rise the Committee is put in the form that 1 put it ,in other 10ords, when

.1\11-1 :·~R. CHAF~!.\.'i: ---,----- l·ffi... !;E! J~Y: ------ :1 R. ROUSSE..\t:': ~ ;.:n~r, !·1r. Sp.til:\...;1 , ~;e \o.rill bC. Lack to the of ,\!eerie<:. aLC! by tL." j uin.: :.;rief l>y t: . .:o c:;·j•t;, the Confederation called fo::- a separc.ltc tl::"Li.~~t=y of oc..:c.u~ .. ~~ivnol nealth anti sufety,, Tili.s Agriculture,travelle<l <.cross scr.1e u.i: t;!e other provinces ::o take a in respect to occu;:>atic ·nal health Dnd safety.

I t:hink the ~~ext big move was in October of ~976,and in October of 1976 a conference was called in this Province which included representatives from l~bour and representatives fro~ _manageocnt across the frovince. I was informed and tolJ and .read that til~ conference w;:~s a very big success.

A number of rcco=cndations and democratically elected o co1~r.1ittee comprising of six representatives of iabour ancl six t'epresentatives of management to look at the question of occupational h•~alt:l and saf.:ty. l'ne n=e given to that COllllllittee was the I:nter:Ua Advisory Cot.!ncil on Occupational Healti1 and Safety. That was in October 1976. I t;1ink it took a <llonth or t1.1o to get the report

- -""· April 10,1973 Tape No .. 7(,1 AH-Z. ~~~. !~OUSSEAU: of th~ co:t~li t t~e la.;.c:luse tl11..: 1-ic.::nor 1...Ll t.:nlversi ty Extension Group ...,hich did it,of course had to type ul' t!te topes of the co:::.r.1ittee <t:-!d it \.'.:\S 1977. h11.1cdi;1tely I ai!poir.t~d iJr. Leslie ;i.::ni.,; to tll<C cut.;t.l ittee a;; Chair.uan, I talked to Dr. i-iGrris anu :1~ :-:as prc;>::reJ to ;;t:t t:1e Advisory Council on Occupation.::! liealth .:md Safety.

I abo appointeJ a couple of o t11er people, i.u...:e:p~nclent pt:opJ t: from . th.£: l-Htiver.:;i ty .:1nti so on ..,:1o i1ad sow.e backs:round in occupaticm:.il :1<.:alth aad s;-!i~cty. A~ a re::;ult of t~1at coun: .. dttc~ ~·~ hope very socn i1i.. t:1e 1-l.:..~sc.::o to introduce lq;isJ.ation ou occupationu.l :1e.:2lth 2nd su.fct;:.

J:ut first let me su.y SOI:lething, ;-ir. c:wirr.tan: I ltave procee.c!c.J i:. ;:: ',.";J.j' t:tat I think is ti1(! proper "Way, It "'<!..7 aot be,aml I ar.• ope;·, to sut:;;;estich., ~umber ot·.e, it is unfortunate that t:1e question of occuL'<~ tior:.::l ilc.:;.lt :, <:nd s;:.fcty in this day and a;;c,and specifically iu the t\lO stri:-:...,s t:1at are now occurin:,;, s::ould Lc a ;~at tcr for col lee tivc ~i!r~cit~in::;; that is unfort!.lnate,. .luu..l I thi~~.: .:.11 I;.~lb~rs of tltis lcdi~laturc~ the past administration ar.c! t!~e ?rc.sett!. ad:·,ir~istrntion., :~:tvc to ~~!~~ back in the ;,inist-::y that ~·as my number one consideration, and I for titis Province t:1at will et,a1lc vor:;.ers to feel t!t<lt th2:7· !lave lt:gislative protectiou against t:te .>art of thi.lgs tho:.t

an act of this nature would counteract. I addresseci the first nectin<; of the Iuterim Advisory Council on Occupatio•.al Health and Sc~.fety and threw out a few concepts as well as asked thcrJ to lool~ at the lcsislation. ~:ow their original terms of reference "l.'cre to con50li.::i.t t;> ·­ or their opinion, their advise, their recotmnt-.udation to me \vas to consolidate all existing legislation on occupational health and safety, to use that as an inter~ device and then to look at new legislation on the basis of the experiences of specifically

April 10, 1978 T~pe No. 162 NM - 1 Saskatchewan and Ontario, but to a lesser extent, Alberta, Hanitohn and British Columbia who are no~o.• i!". the process of the same sort cf legislation. The first meetin~; that the Interim Advisory Council hnd, and they knew that as ninister I was contemplating some changes in occupational health and safety, I wc{s asked as a result of the minutes of the meeting, that government not take any action in the area of occupational health and safety until the Interim Advisory Couucil had discussed it and made their recommendations. Understand, ¥r.

Chairman, tbey were not saying that whatever recommendations they made government had to follow. ~~at they did say was that any legislation contemplat=d, or any action contemplated by the government should be referred to this Committee. I gave my undertaking to the Committee that in the Winter, or very e~rly Spring, government would not take any action in occupational health and safety legislation or otherwise until whatever action might be contemplated ~·as referred to this Interim Advisory Group. They !:let pericdJ.cally. They made some reco:r"-:lend.ations.

I believe it fair to say that every recommendation they have made has been followed by government. One of the original recommendatious was that we consolidate under one department, which we have done, and which will be done cocpletely by the 1st. of April, 1979 and I will .. explain those dates later. .That we a~point a Director of Occupational. B.e<~.lth and Sa!ety, which we have. That the staff be ac.::u!D.ulateo, 1o1hich we are beginning to do. And if bon. members will notice, the amount of money that will be expended departmentally this year is quite substantially more than last year.

This is due to a lot of the agencies and their officials will be of course, coming to the Department of I.abour and Manpower under the umbrella of occupat1.onal health and safety.

April 10, 1978 Tape No. 762 • HR. ROUSSEAU: ---- ·--- I said, Okay, we will not move on any ite~s until you make your reco=.mdations. Not, I. lo12.S under thE' i~~press:!.on that they were looking at, nwnber. one, the consolidation of existing legislation, which now, !!r. Chairman, operates uncl~r four, five, six departments.

They did that an:i they looked at it a&aL~ and actually what they have done is they have in effect co•e up with a consolidat~on and some other aspects -which could be called new concepts i:::~ occupational health and safety insofar as the existing bits and pieces of legislation we had previous to that. I received the consolidation from the Department of Justice about a oonth or six weeks ago. I referred it back to the act itself or the draft act, to the I~terim Advisory Council tgain. They had so~:~e extraordinary meetings for t~o.ro days I believe it was, Hr.

Chairman, about two weeks ago, in wh!ch they considered the o.tlole question cf the act. They made soae changes and they recom~ended so~e changes and these changes were introduced !:>y the legal people in the I:epartme;:'lt of Just:ic~; their drafting but it vas accepted by the departuent and I hope within the next few days will be approveu by government. MR. ll.N. ROIVE: (Inaudible) , MR. ROUSSEAU: That is th~ Occl!.pational Health and Safety Act : I said the other day it would be a very proud moment for me !n st.anding up to give notice of that and I hope to do that before the end of the month.

But in any event, Mr. Chairman, we have consulted with them. Now I am going to assume something, Mr. Chairman. First of all, I am going to assume that the six members represcntin:; labour and the six members representing manage:ilent are represer.tive of labour and management across this province. As minister it is not my intention to put out a White paper or put the act out for discussion. It will be introduced and passed in this session of the Hcuse,I hope. Fro~ there of course any changes, ~difications, additions, deletions to that act can be done,but we have to get that act on the books nnd if t

Ap!"ll 10, 19.73 T51'C N0. 762 JH- 3 NR .. ~~·)~ ':·::-:r;·.Ll: ---~----···- may ::~t ..:1 .. ~'hit~ r~.~~·e.T. or t'~tke: it: a topic. fot" discussion to b" ahle t!) do th;, i !!:;!~lation. I .:i ;t s•1rc that all h.on. members in this SfoSsion of. ciu~ lbns2 will h.::::l the same priC:."! bt:ca•1se it is a topic~l issue n.:>v to tal.k to and hop~fully unanitttuu-;ly approve .an act on occupat:ior:al hc>.lltil J.lld saf :ty. }!y timetabl.e 00\: cepends on the Bud;;et: Specc!• ;..nJ so en I in"e<'ut~e we •..1ill be fioi£:hcd the budget su:ueti;;;e aru••nl ::!1e ~nd of A;J!"il and I would hope that in ~lay that m:e of th·~ fi :·st pieces u.:: legislation

Tape 763 I'K - 1 !":!~. Rol~~~:. to t.e d l:;cu s ~wd in the lecislative programme o~ this r~ • ~iJ" uf ~~~ Hous~ will be the question of occupational I feel v,'ry '"tcongly about it. I know many pe,,ple C!CH'·o-s ~i1e Province fc"el very strongly ,,bout it, and I k<>"r saying .w;.,_.:;n my feet:i :l:;Jt I feel very badly th<:t I.a!::rador C:ity- is out, ;;nd t,dvocate mine::; are cut, or Ramble~. n,ere is 110 quas tion :1Lvu t t.ba t becausc.· there is no lcgis:).a!:ive provision for occupatiouaJ health and safety. And I am not saying 'embarrassed'.

I do not feel err.barrased about it, but I feel very bad :-tbotJt it ;~!ld I \vill reiterate "'hat I just said; it is unfortunate in this day :md age that tmirms and company have to discuss the question IJf occupational and health and safety of the worker, t:he health of ti,t; ~wrkar,across the bargaining table. It is unfortur.at.e 1 like I say,th<>t provisions of legislation are not there now.

They will be by nE--v:t Y''C\r I certainly hope barring something \:hich I c'o not forese<.·, ."\'ld that wj 11 be ruuch more conducive to the collective b-'lrf:llining !•l"o,:ess in the Province where they can again sit do-..·n an.:! talk al;ou~ tho~c ite~s •.,~hich rightfully belong to th~ C:Hl1bit 0f occupational hoRlth and safety. I wanted, Mr.

Chairman, and I have spoken the t"·enty minutr"s r-.ow, and I will sit in about two minutes, but I wanted to put that on the. record, the position on the record, We can argue from th~re and if han. members have thoughts on it I am ·prepared to listen to them because I think this is something that is very important, government is in support of the concept of occupational health and safety.

I am sure that hen. members across alc;c' :!r-~, "~-<1 I thin\ j_t if; very important for all of us~especially those who represent areas where the ql!estion of occup~tional health and safety is a topical one, the mining areas of this Province. So there are many other points in the estimates, of course, that I would have had like to have the opportunity to discuss but time is limited, and I wanted to put that one iter.1 on the record just what th·~ position is. Hear. hear!

April 10, 1978 Tape 763 PK - 2 MR _. CH...UIC.'t~N: The hon. member for Bur£eo-Bny d 'E.~poir. HR. SHP.·!ONS: Thank you, H!". Chairm&n. Hr. Chairman, I would just like to - MR. PECKFORD: (Inaudible). HR. SIH~lO:iS: Does tl1c ~li.nis ter of Ni1 .. ~:-; and E111.~rgy h.:.n,•e SOFH.-' th1 L~t_: he would like to say before we proceed? MR. PECKFORD: HR. NEARY: MR. SIMMO:-!S: No,go ahead. I am sorry, very sorry .. (Inaudihle). He is on the labour cormnittee . Oh,yes.I believe he is, as a matter of fact.

I am a member of the House and I have some things I would like to say on the subject, and that is the procedure, if you notice, '-'€ have been following in Ccmmittee,to have various members get up ann say things. members who are concerned abt'U t various issues. And I an. lookinc; forward just as much as the Ninister of Hines and Energy i.s to hearing from my friend from Terra Nova (Hr. Lush) on the subject of Labour and Manpower. the subject.

I have a few things myself I would like to say on I wes hoping ~!lat the minister in his opening state~e~t would have addressed himself to a number of the big issues which are concerning us, and certainly occupational health is one of thf"m. o~,;t since it is not the Budget speech,I was hoping that he would give us a very quick thumbnail sketch of what his concerns are as }linister of Manpower.

I wanted to hear it for a verJ good reason, because I was wanting to see if in his priorities as the Hinister of Labour and Manpower if he saw any priority in the very serious economic situation which the people of Bay d'Espoir in my district are facing, and which is being faced by a numher of other areas throughout this Province. I want to speak for a few minutes on the Bay d'E~poir situation, not only as the district politician for that particula:t· area, but because the racifications of the Bay d'Espoir problem are far and beyond the district itself.

The present situation in Bay d'Espoir is nothing short of a disaster. I think the term 'disaster' to be the appropriate one to use for it. It is unfortunate that the legislation, I believe federal in this instnncc, covers disasters. !t does not cover this kind of a disaster. Apparently you have got to have )I 5o

·. April 10, 1978 'i'ape 763 PK- 3 Mr .• Simmons: a typhoon or a tidal .r<Jveo ot some other n;:;tursl disaster to qualify fo r any federal funding. Perhaps it is time to look for a change in that legislation federally because I feel strongly that it matters not how the disaster came about;if the consequences are the same, if the deprivation is the same,then the remed~ ought to be the same, the access to a remedy ought to be the same.

April 10, 1978 In- L particula-rly think that thts p;nti r-.;1_.,:::- <;cver:-,'"c•:--t - <1:1~ I a;:1 r;r·~ casting aspP.rsions - I am Just sayinr, the<t th:- r.•':-,--·-·n:~! ni\t '\trc: of the probleN is such that it protably r<:,,uj rr.~' .. ,, .~ <:.:~ive collaboration of hoth levels of govcrr;l'lC'I't to 0:; ~.: __ ,: ~in3 <'1'!:10\•.t it- Now, how serious is the problem? ~!eJ 1, }'r. Ch«; :<l'!r., I had il chat 1.1ith the Manpower peoj'le in St.

John's and ~r--o.u:' ralls an'1 a couple of offices elsel<here in CanaJa in the ] >•.~:t f~ . ..., days, ?nrl the first figure that is very avaiJ ahlc ta us ir. t':" c~tp] oymer.t figure that you hear published every r..onth. believe, for february, it Has about eighteen per ~e:nt.

The South C:oast economic zone, zone t"Wo I believe thPy ~':.-11 it, th\" rate there is 18 per cent con:pared to 17.P. rer ccCJc =or the Prcv.i.'!.c<:. ~:e should '1-:cep in rr.ind that the economic zr.me t1:" ~.nclll:les not or.1y Bay d' Espoir but the Port aux nasques at·c"' t·:hich, I 'Wulc subrc•it, probably has an unemployrr.ent rate sow:"'•at lower t: •"l'' tl'>e provh1cL.} average. Is that fair? HR. NEAP.Y: Lower than the national averai:f-. MR. Sn!NONS: Lower than the nationco .l average. MR. NEARY: That does not include dow-n the South W~est ccas::. MR. SU!MONS: No, no.

But I mean Port aux Jl;squ1>s itself woulJ be lower than the national average, is that right? AN RON. MP.!BER: That is right. MR. SHf"'O~S: ~!y hon. friend from LaPoile (t!r. Neary) just informs us that the rate in Port a~~ Basques is not only lower than the the national average. The Burin rcninsula is in that zone that I am talk:!.ng about and as 1-1e kno;.r the econony of tl>e llurin Peninsula is thriving these days \oThat with the fish plant anc the shipyard and so on.

So if you ta~e out these two very prosperous areas, the Burin Peninsula and the Port aux r:asques area, high employment areas. you will get snroe ir'!P.a of .1u"t he>•·: seriou<: the prnl->1_,.,., is in I~.:'.y d'[<;poir. When the ave.rage forth; ~.:liol" tu.:tst is 18 p•;~ C•':lt,

April 10 ,1978 Tape 761, n-2 you l·:iJ.l begin to renlize hou hip;h jt r.1ust be for Bay d'Espoir. I 'l:as a little ,-Ji!".:lc>i'ointed to ri!l ~ out t~at the statisticians in Manpo~1er and ir. Stats Canm~a. ctati~tics r::'r.;;c'.;, did not have too rr:uch of a hc. n d l ~ or. the siz~ of t~\e une r.l:.toyt. ·. crtt probler.1 except in generalities such as I have j '.l" t gi vcn to you. I did ask a few questions the ans~:ers to 1.ffiicl: r:!i[sht sf'.n1e to focus in on the problcn.

They use-<lt least internally another yarc'stid: called the participation rate,which I unrlerstand js the to tal nunbcr of people in the lab·our force hoth,employed and uncmployen,as a ratio of the total people fifteen years ;md over, in other •;ords, the potential labcur force. A .. '1C they find that the partid .patio::I rate in the Province is 47 per cent, the participation rate, the number of empl:Jycd and unerr.plo:,•ed people loo~:in;:: for Ho:rk as ca:;,parec to the total number fifteen years and over. participation rate is 4 7 per cent in ~!ewfoundland but only /,() p?-I cent on the South \.oast.

Agair: I come back to my earlier comr.:~nt. lf you k~e!> in minrl that Port aux Basques and the Surin Peninsula with its high employment are in that area, you will just get some idea how lo11 is the part:i.cipation rate in Day d 'F.spoir itself. I am also told that that 40 per cent that I just mentioned, the participation rate for the economic zone two, Burin Peninsula and Port aux Basques, that rate is the lowest in all of Canada.

Of all the economic zones - and I think there are several in Newfoundland - in all the ten provinces and two territories the South Coast has the lowest participation rate in all of Can~da. And apain I say,extract .. out those figures for Port aux Basques and the Burin Peninsula and you will just realize how low it is for the Bay d'Espoir area. 0::1e other yardstick before I get tC~ a point th<.!t I want to Tllake, a yardstick which manpower again uses internally, is the etnployment to population ratio. That is to say the nUI:1ber of

Arril 10, 197 8 T.:;pe 761, as a per cci1t of the rot('nt:ir:tl ) ~·nour force, .:zlJ. tl,-, ~~; f: ~t2er- years of age nnd over~ 33.9 'per cet:!t, say 39 per ct:nt in roand f:i;:>:ua·s, J'' ]>Oc cr·nt of t 1 ·.~ poteHti.al Jahour force f.i.ftecn years of .::~'.2 nnd ~ -.. _.,~~ :.-. r:la:: .!.nclu•:(·:' .. everybody no: .. ,, you kno~·, ncn ?.:-td t·.'Or.;C!l, ~e-c.p:e :.n :'(·lJ et~t: ~r:.d pe'J:'""!..:; who have not applied for a job ,bt:t it inclt":~·.s tlw ,,::wlc ?,<J!r:ut of people, fifteen years cf <>~.e "nd over. as a whole thirty-nine

Ta;>e ~<o. 765 All-1 ~-~ ! ~. : ~: :·· J:·:s: ---- -- p<.:r cc ;-; t of the fiftC'c:ll yQ;.,r old .mJ over nrc w-ork inc, thirty-nir.e For r.:t<. ~;uuth coast it is tllir::y-ti1rc;; point ti1rt:~c per ccat of all the p!:•Ji' lc over fii teen years of a~e are actu;.:] ly vorkit~t:; • t:tir ty- tiu·c.;L, per cent. l'~nd az:air..

I poir~t out ti.~.at includes t:1e Pert aux loiJ ;.:tt:.., L ~l~.:1 t perc~nt~:.:..~ bt: £or Z~y ci 1 ~$yoir1 According to ,,hat I hear in the House Bay d 'Espoir is lo"'~ r them any place in the Province. well.? lh~t e is no recent fl<,ures .:IVailable u.bout the true p:roporc"i..:::o.s of t~ls ~is~sler in Bny ~·~sroi~. T~e latest fisures by cot~unity ~rc r.:.1tc i ;-1 St.

Alhc.:.n 1 s seven years a;_;o wc-~s t~i.':!aty-five poi:r.!t six, tw~Htj·- seven ye.;rs ago. ~ith one brief exccptiorL it has not ~ott<!n bette:::-; .luT l.<:,: t!te e:;:tension to the zenerntin~ station for a brief period t;1erc. 'io7CJ:C tout.u~ euploy:aaat op;,.>ortunities titere. Of cou::se,that is all do~c rtnd the ~xtension is now open and there is nobody to my knowleci&e d.irectly employed now as a result of that particular project~ So we have twenty-five per cent of the people in St. Alban's unemployed seven years ago. How bnd is it no'io7?

The Ea;' cl 1 !:spoir Dcvelopt:ent -J,ssociati.on last Su=er did a survey; They talked to literally evcr;•ilody iu Eay d 1 Espoi~ who were available on the ddys concerned; they sent out eight surveyors, eight people asking questions. They have since collated those quest3ons. taey have not bc.eu interpreted. so they are still in somewhat raw fon:~. But the net rcsL!lt of that survey is that about seventy-eight per cent of the people

AprH 10,1978 T~pc No. 765 :·1R. SI::: lO;-IS; of n~:r J 'Espoi.r to t!lC \.;orl~fcrce' S-.!Ve.nty-ei!, ht pc:r cet:t are uncr.1ploycci. Nc<~ I would sub'Qit - MR. N,\\~:ARD: (Ir:au<..iible:) Noae are employed? Harbour ~rl!ton ha~ got MR. SI ! I:!O~~S: Yes. H!L sJ.:c:oxs: .".. good poi::t, a zoo<:! ~'O il:t. so~.e of th~ peo;·lc in tiay d' Es;:oir, I t·roulcl s<.y four to five .1 t tb,~ ·:Lo ~:cnt, <1-::e e['lployed on dr2::;:;crs O\!t of !Iaruour 'h:c;tor. or Gaultcis, f<nlr to fL:.o five as far as I ~::;ov.

A fc•.: ;:cc·ple :1rc t:crl:in 0 in tl:.:: .1.rca of various otner places but the lwr~o ... r ::Jrc~oa ::!. liiC:~:.\::: '" iJCO~l~ iu. :~illco:.:::l, He.adcf ~a) ~'I.:;;Folr ~:..J 3 l 0 t of rco1lc. :lot :iL ... but a f".!.lrly :1ibi1 p~rce'-'~d(;-i! in St .• UU.u.a' s ,w~rc .2ai;:!;_;cd .i.;.:. tlic s.:a.;: .. ~ occupation as t;1.., peo.,lc in Seal C.::n:c. Log~in~. .m.

Hie~:::.\:::: Lc.;t;ing. 1\:u:t is t:te situation ti1c,rc. no· .. -? rrR. sr:~!o:;s: Where are you now?l just -.~anted to take this tir•c t<lis afternoon to put t:1is t!ling in a hit of perspective because after 1957 ,.,,1e~ Bow·atcrs ::~oved out the traditional sk.ill ti1ere was log&iur:, in nay d'Espoir ~y and large. They had never in recent tices been involved in the fishery to any J;reat nu:r.bers. And "With the tr.Jditiol!al skill of log£ing it !.'as natural that th'-'Y w\lulJ iJecoL:c involved ia the Labrador Liller board operatio1,, particularly throu~;h Goose Bay, liter. ally hundreds.

I believe the figure one Summer w-as something between 350 and ~Ov people in Bay d'Espoir were actually in Goose Bay logging, fro~ the Bay ti'r;s;?oir area alone 1aod t :lat is thirty-five per cent of your \olorkforce in one particular area hunc.ire<ls of miles away fr'-"' the

T.ape ~io, 765 AH-3 ~·1~1... SJ.: ~ k~:~~ : --:-r----

ApriL 10.", 1978 Tape No. 766 RT-1 NR. SIHHO:-<S: The net result i<> that the - MR. i:ICY0'A!i: The construe tic~ indus try are, too. There were q•1ite a few ope:ratcrs, heav-y equipc1ent operators in th,J.t. ~!R. s 1'-!:lo~rs: 'Ih.:!t is rig:-tt.

Tbe other set of skilJ s that. got built up in recent y"ars, since 1966, ":!.th the generating station were highly specialized skills,in the electrical and weldir.g areas particularly 1 and there are a lot of very highly skilled people in those disciplines ill Bay d 'Espoir ri~ht no\J who cannot find any.ihere to peddle their skills; there is no immediate market for them. Some of them 2-re looking to the fishery and several are i.n the business of getting longliners bJJl: .they .are going .to run into the problem of licences there, new licences, particularly if they have not been fishing before.

What I want to do, rather than to get i~to detail because my time has just about run oct, is very quick:y surr"ctarize the magnitude of the disaster which is staring us in the face in Bay D'Espoir. I h.:r:e w::-itten the Pr::!tr.icr in the last week or tc.;o .-.nd I hs.·;e -;.or~ t.:en t01<' Minister in the Cab:!net from Newfoundland, the Federal Cabinet, ~~r. JaC"ieson, and I have proposed to them that they .have a look at the Goose Bay Development Corporation model and see if it could not be applied to the Bay d'Espoir area. I think members of the House are well aware of what happened there.

The Development Corporation was set up through Provincial and Federal funding on roughly a 90/10 formula, ~ome local input from the Town Council and from the Chamber of Commerce but, basically, a 90/10 fo-rmula, roughly $90,000 a year federally and roughly $10,000 Provincially, for a three-year period. I met ~.dth the President of that Corporation, Hr. Fahey, and the Managing Director, Mr.

Eadie, in the last week or two, and I gather from talking to them and to others in the area that the- Corporation is already beginning to have an impact. ~ow it is too early to pass the final judgenent on >1hat it :!.s going to c able to do 1 but if Government is looking foi' an initiative that it can take in Bay d 'Espoir, I stro11gly ~elieve 'it is in the area of " developmC'nt corr>oration, ':'he fund~nr. of il <!cvelop~ent c0rror.>tin:1

April,lO.; 1978 Tape No. 766 RT-2 MR. SHl:'lONS: ~muld in\'()::.ve another sub-agreeiT_o:nt, « DREE sub-agreement. The prec:ecent is already there in the Goose Bay model and I would particul<<rly, sometin:e during the Es tir~ates or during the Buclp,c:t debate, like to hear the ~-linist<:r'!" response on this particular item. It is a disaster of the first order - HR. ROUSSEAU: We may as well do it now. MR. SH~!ONS: Okay, well I would like to hear it. 1~ell I believe my tiiDe i1as just about run ou~, That is the concern t1-tat is on my mind right now.

If that model can work in Goose Bay and can work in Bay d'Espoir, perhaps it has application for ether parts of the Province but, certainly, I cannot think today of a more fertile area for such funding, such involvement by Government, ac the Bay d'Espoir area right now. The other side of the coin is that if soiHething ::s not done, the ramifications of ~.;hat is going on in Bay d' Es[Joir now just boggle the rJind.

It is just aln:ost too much t_o imagine whnt an impact socially ,in tc~1's of family relationships, the unemployntent situation is having on a youngstet" in Hay d 'F.spoir and S~. -~lban "s "Whose father has not worked for eight years, not because he is toC> la::y but because he cannot get a job. And there are men in Bay d'Esroir who have not worked in seven to eight years and a youngster has g~own up in that famlly and has never seen her father or his father go to work. Now that has an amazing set of ramifications, socially and economically. MR.. WOODROiv: I was . wondering if the (Inaudible) j_r. St.

Alban's or all over the bays? Is it in St. Alban's more than in St. Joseph's, St. Veronica's? :!>1R, SUl}~mlS: The member for Bay of Islands (Mr. 1-'oodrow) asked how widespread it is. Well in the St. Alban's area it has been a problem for a longer period. The figures in St. Alban's - in 1971 there was 25.6 per cent of th<! people unemployed in St, Alba.'"!' s compared to 14.3 in ¥~rrisville, co~pared tv 13.2 in Milltown. This is in 1971. If you want comparisons for other parts of the Province just to put it per cent, in Grand Bank it w·as 3.6, in Fo·ctune it was 1.0, in !'!arystown

Ap:--.:1 }Ll" J ,, -," -··'"" ;:L'-3

~ .. , ... : "':' -~ - - . . • .. } '.'/8, T~~H ~G7, P~gc 1 -- ~pb in l'.lban 1 s. I think it i~ p~0tty ~qualJy spr~ad thrau~hout the area now Ten years ago it ~as the other way ~"!.c.)~_.nd .. That is right! 'l'hat is rigr1t! ~ihe.

T) th e_, .-;:.udy '\-las c1cnc, even your RPC Report in 1973-74, the hig-h e ;;;t welfar"' c ol,·:munity at that time was Conne- River. •r-:-u. t is not i:h £! case .anymore. And when I say welfar ~ l mean reci?ients of social assistance. That is not th-.:: .. ~<, se anymore. Conne River now has a higher perce~t~.s~ of employed persons than any c;>ther community in Bay •J 'Espoir. In conc1usion, Mr. Chair:nan, the:;:- e <::::e really on):: t;JO ernploycrs in Bay d' Espoir tcdo:y, Hydro, viLich has a very J imited number of people, and education .

If you t a r.e Hydro and education out of the figures, I submit there is not an er.1ployer in - hold on now! and the mill in Conne River, of course - if you take the Conne River mill and Hydro and education out of the picture for ~moment, there is not an employer in Bay d'Espoir who is employing more than six or seven people. Perhaps that sun-.rnarizes better than I can any other "ilay just how s~:!:- i (J t::s the probl.r.;m 1s. There is no investment in Bay d ,. Espoir, there is no entrepreneur who is putting money into the area to help crank up the economy.

And in the absence of private investment then we have to look to some government ini tia ti ve. I am a private entrepreneur, l arn a private enterpriser first and foremost and I advocate governn .ent involvement only as a last resort and then only for un i!l':~t-im period o f time. It is for that reason, the

April 10, 1978, Tape 767, page 2 -- apb NR. SIM!'10NS : lack of private capital available in that particul.:~r area, th2.t I a'tl advoc~ting and asking the minister for his support for the funding of a development corporation with federal and provincial participation. HR. CHAIRM.I\N : The hon. mernber for 'l'erra Nova. MR. LUSH: J.1r. Chc:d rman, though small in terms of expenditures of the public dollars, the Lahcur and Manpower portfolio has to be one of the most important departments of government in terms of what it should do and in terms of what it must do.

One of the maior objectives of the Labour and Manpm-1er Department is to influence through legislation and by its own example the social and economic standards for the working population, ensuring that conditions are right in the work place for people to work, and ensuring proper .... rages. It is thls department which sets the legal and institutional fr:an.e­ work within which labour and management function, establishing through legislation and goverilf"l .ent support services a climate for good industrial relations aimed towards achieving maximum economic performance, maximum productivity.

Presently we are in a period of tremendous labour unrest. It is not sufficient simply to condemn the government or the labout movement or management for this unrest. Indeed, we must look to the · · causes. For when we are dealing wit~ collective bargaining, the system that we use today to iron out labour disputes, then all the parties involved must work in a spirit of co-operation and mutual understanding to ensure that the system works. But it .is the government that establishes the proper climate, the proper atmosphere. But as I have said before, the system c.:;nnot ~.-ork if or.o or

l>pril 10, 19751 T<~P"' 767 1 ?age 3 -- ayb M~ . LUffil: the other cf tho partiPs involv e d falls dO\m with resp ect tc.) l.ts :rospon si:d.i.i . t-.i · and it~ obligatio ns . J\nci. i t is to this lal.:"i~· :· unrest tha l: is prev.:!ent ir. ::he Province right n:..·.·: t.~ < ! !. I wa~t to dizect a few of my remarks 1 as"ing \o:hy ;.lo \" (! have this present labour unrest . \·le do not. h.::v~ i.o lo~"1 ; very far 1 Hr . Chair man I to be cond need th.:L t th ~"l."<.! is labour unrest . In the recent. • .. :eeks 1 last week th•·rc were three wildcat strikes, the n we have the

April 10, 1978 Tape No. 7Gi3 JH - 1 two str.ikes,prcsently th~ bit, stril:e~, the strike l n Labrador \-lest with IOC and its workers and the strike h1 J\aie Vert( : . All ¥TC have to do is look at the ~o:ork stoppages thnt F!. had in 1977 to get: the full impact of the labour unrest that is prt' Seut.Jy ir. existence in this province. Hr. Chairman, \;"ith respect to vor:: stop;:>agcs for this province in 1977 we h<~d thirt)'-nine \mrk stoppa ges. !low these figures are a little at variance with the figures released by the minister's departreent.

These are fro1:1 Labour Canada and I think the reason for the difference is that they use a different criteria in measuring their work stoppages· Thr,re 1;crc thirty-nine involving 9,000 workers and . totalling roan-days lost of 95,660. Compar:f.ng thj .~ with New Brunswick,whereas we had thirty-nine .,.;ork stoppar;es New Brunswick had only thirty involvin£ 5,886 workers "'here again we had 9,000 and the)' nad a total of 37,720 n:an-days lost.

In Nova Scotia twenty-tYo ~ork stoppages involving 2,407 ~orkers and for a total man days los~ of 29,930. 1-!e just about tripled. ~..'ell 'We cer:;a:l.nly did td.ple. \/e quadrupled Nova Scotia in terms of . man-days lost and when we thir.k of the :act that our labour force is much less than either of the two ncntioneci - ~ew Br~~swick and Nova Scotia, we are just half of New Brunswick and a third of Nova Scotia, yet we tripled them with respect to man days lost. Now, ~~. Chairman, there is something wrong in a ' province where we have such a small labour force and yet so many ~ork stoppages.

The point of the matter is that we cannot afford the3e work stoppages, this loss 1~ man~days, loss in wages, loss in salary and loss in productivity. l·Te cannot afford it. Another reasc,-, that we can look to for the labour unrest in this province has to do with the labour legislation in the province. Last year this House passed two labour bills. Our comments about both were that they were both cumbersome. We had the Labour Relations Act and the Labour Standards Bill. Now we said at that time that the Labour Stendards Bill was nothing to

April hi . :,1i ] l> Tape No . i'tll~ l r..{ .. L!..' ~ ~ ~ : --- - tu car f y ..:o:~ o1 oig pro n:co t Lonr.l progralc."'le , a puolicity progri'lmm-:! or an 1 kn:>'.' of o such activity . I kno1.1 of nothing tha t ~;·e :gir : ~~.:: _ :.:1s done Lo inforr- the worke rs of this pro·:in::e ·.:hat eir ri gh ts "':u.: p:-::vilc~es are u:Jcier this act. I d .o not sec any hing in the oudget f, :- .i. w.ry much. I see $1,000 for educ a ticn and that is one 1-:undrcd p ~> r c~1~t improv .:7.~ nt ever last yea-r .

L.-:tbour ed~.:ca ion - t he :n niste t ,..;•y..: ;~ o but ! t1:c'ut;l.t tl1cre ~·a.s $1 , 000: That . is n:-o:. - Ckay,b •:: I an jt~st ,,•ondeting to make !:.!;c po c.t wh<!t! c r t i is :ts ~h " : ,, ~ ; ~::s t h:ot th~ minis ter ht!s decided t o allocz te t.:l eciuc a te <!n:.l to i !"": fr.::::.-: our ·~crr ke rs of t.h:-ir ri F,hts and privilege!; ~;::.der thi~ cumbe::so ;c-. .;.ct:. \;'hat i3 the &tatus of this a c t? Is it proclaim.e:i yet?

April 10, 1978 kno; rs <1nything about :!.t. this act was a backward st~p rca] ly. ·- p ., J...~- .1. to really pass progressive legislation for la':JJuY·, r·isSe><' " ;·olt~<:n apport unity. This ac:t ¥-~as vcr.y offe~sivc to thl~ lc.11ou:. r:·_J /_:-qpr·t in tl1is l'rovince, net in total but in threC! or f'-"'~"...:r of it.s c.L'1·.::.. ... cs. 'Thi..~ major point of contention, of course, t-:as th<: <:JC~:,:;(' th:.ct !'l"<: ~he govern[Tlent the right to call a scn.et vcte in Z•l'Y :1:: •~" •.·::t<·re t:vo.r." ,.,as a strike that was dcer:tec~ t:o oe 11arnful t:o the econo:ty of the ,,,~i en.

Lab.:Jur objected and very forcefully to this p:;rt i o::l!la::- cl:-,us«. 1':c minister .,as unresponsive to lahour's cle:,anc:!::; in t·:d.s rc,;::;::c:. Also another point, a contention:<: poi.;;t, l:a s th · (:L;,~.;s:; that made uuions a legal entity, making t 11e::1 rc .;~t.nt.;ihle 1·u r tl:e actions of their members yet not giving union,.: th"! rif:h t ':o f'·; sci ;•J i.::w their O"-"n members.

So here by 1naking the union:) ~ ll"f'~-d. t:ttt5 t.Y ~ end making them responsi;.,le for the actions ot U1eir r.,,:,~:.)<:r3. c:·,i:; coulc: be a very disasterous act but yet - tne t'Wo mu,;t r.c to1:c·:~ ·, .-, you kno•w, if we mal:e them legal entities ancl r\al:e tiler. rei'i''-'''s i.7, !.<e .• The unions at this mo:rl'ent have no 'Hay of discip~_ining tl•cJ.r ;-.etn~f'rs and yet how can they control the.ir members if they have no ';'ly of disciplining them. So, !~r.

Chairmar,, these were some of the features of that act, the Labour Relations Act, that th-:! lacot!r m•.)Vec.ent of this Province found offensive ;:.r.rl is stlll finG;l:[~ cf( .:...·r.:..-: : ·.,· D:1·: yet the minister took no steps to correct this situ~tion. This b:l.ll did net improve labour-manage~t-;nt relations in this l'rov:ince. As :! matter of fac~, by the number of work stopages, by the nu'-ll.er of strikes that a!'e still occarring in the Province and by t:"~ offensiveness of this particular legislation, I vould susr,cst that 1:thnur rel:~tiCl~~ are :'It :m all-t1me lo\1.

April 1!), 1978 Tape 769 IB-2 HR.•l.USH: No<~, what is the statt:s of this particular hj] 1? Is this bill proclaimed or does the minister intend to thro\.; it out and come b:Jck with some ne~-r lc~isl<~tion? l.Je do r:ot }:nou. HR.

LUSH: The Labour Rel3Lions Act, thc.t is ?roclained? ~·:ell, again it proves the point that ~"e ••er~ try:ing to ~et at it l;;~st ye<~r hy saying that this wi.ll he an inco!'1prehensihle bill because it looks like to this paint the minister has made no effort, the p,ovcn,rnc1~t, to try and set up the mechanism ~rherel,y tht> people who ar<:! served by this bill know what is in it. 'lo type of 2!'_ er:uc<~tional proF;ra~:Ir:e.

Again does the ~nis~er p~an that the ~l,~nn he has pot allocated for education, to use this to inform the nonunionized worl:crs and the unionized workers in this Prm.•ince HI-at these t"o larr,e <~nd cumhersoMe bills ?..re all abc•ut, the Labour relations f·ct ann thE> La~ot:r Standards .'\ct? Another reason, "!r. ChainT'an, for labour unrest in tris Province - anci the min1 ster spent sone t iraP. h imseJ f in dealing witt' · it - the health and safety neasures. And the minister \rent on to say that it was a rather ridiculous situation that men and ~~orkers have to strike for these particular reeasures today.

Chairman, there are no glib statements by the minister of glib apologies which can help make amends for this neF.lect. The ninister is in a position of responsibility to be able to do something about providing safety for our men and the proper health conditions, The govern~ent are in a position of responsibility.

April 10, 1978 · Tave 770 PK - 1 icir. Lush: ------ They are in a position to ac~. And Y•~t. . we find in 1978 over 3,000 1-"orki'rs about to be <~'::fo>ct~rl by the non-action of the government, men in 1978 out firhting for occupational hczlth and saf<·ty rneas"res. It is a terrible indictn~nt on any government, ~!r. Chairman, that no actio:"! has been taken. The government nave been draggi11g their heels with respect to coming out with something positiv"! and something tangible in this respect. Mr.

Chairman, ~mother cause for labour un!:'est, and I suppose the greatest cause for labour unrest in this Province. is the tremendous high vnemploy-mcut that we have. How can we have good labour relations when we have so many people unemployed, 32,000 people unemployed? Mr. Chairman, I am practically brought to tears when I think of the numbers of people that are unemploye::c in this Province, the tremendous amount of human misery and sacrif5ce and deprivation that is being caused by the unemployment in this Province.

The people of this Province are denied the d.g'ht ani! tl:e opportunity to provide a proper living for their families. And, ~!r . . Chairman, what this i:; doing to our society is almost inm:easurable in terms of loss of human pride and dignity, completely destroying the moral fibre of our people. Thi:rty-two thousand people u1-.emplcyed for a rate of 17.8 per cent out of a work force of 181,000. It is a disgrace, Mr. Chai1~an. It is a shame. MR. F. RO.,'E: It is scandalous. MR. Lt'SH: ----- Now what of the future? What are the government plans for the 'future?

What are their goals and objectives '<lith respect to prov:l .ding employment for our people? In the Budget speech, in the blueprint for developmc,nt 1 the government mentioned they were going to provide 40,000 jobs, 40,000 jobs. How is that going to &<', Hl:'. Chairman, towards meeting the objectives of what the employment rate should be in this Province? We presently have 32,000 unemployed.

Taking the average of the new additions to the labour force ~hie~. range between 5,000 a~d 6,000, let us take the lower figure of 5,000; this ~eans that in five years time we are going to have 25,000 additional people in the lab~ur forc0, Add to that the 32,000 th~t ~rc

April 10, 1978 Tape 770 PK- 2 now unemployed and we need 57,000 jobs to aim towards full employment and that is not counting <1rq further shut dovrns or close d~Nns of present industries which this governm~nl have been noted for, It is not counting the layoffs in the - HR. NEARY: The Shut-Her-Dnlm government. Right. It is not counting the layoffs in the public service, just hoping for the best that thinss will remain the way they are. So at that time we 'l.'ill have a labour force of 115,000 in five years time.

Taking the 40,000 jobs that the governm.ont: will create. indirect -ly and directly, this still looks like to me that we are going to be having an unemploj~ent rate of somewhere fr~~ 12 to 15 per cent. Now is that the goal of this government an unemployment rate of 12 to 15 per cent? It is a disgrace. It is a disgrace, Mr. Chairman. It is a disgrace. And all the Cabinet ministers, evP.ry Cabinet min1.ster should hang their head in shame when we realize - SONE RON. XENBERS: Hear, hear! M"R. LTJ5'i: AN HON. MDffiER: Blame it all on - MR.

LUSH: - and no'l.' . ~re have switch-=d around from full employment to u::1- employment of 10 to 15 per cent. That is what ~e are aiming for. AN RON. }!EMBER: Blame it on - MR. LUSH: That is what we are aiming for. Mr. Chairman, a governmetit that has los~ its energy, a government that has lost its initiative, a government that has lost its concern for the people of this Province. SO}lE RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: And I would say, Hr. Chairman, that the government, all of the Cabinet ministers shorJld follow the example of t~e hor.. gentleman for Grc:nd Falls (Mr. Lm1drigan), they should all resign.

SO.ME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: They should all resign. SOME HON. }~~ERS: ---------- Hear, hear!

APril 10~ 1978 J~! - 1 NR. LUS!l: ---- 'll!hat I have att..cmptec u, c:c, ~'"· Cl:-.~ .: rn .. ~.:::, is to point out the reasons, . some of the najor rca~o'"' fc:::: labo:..;r- L':Jrcs!:. iu this province and I h:n•e alluded to the incfrici.::·.-,t i<lbour lc.g:Ll:l ri.on whir:h w;;s offpn .•:i.v., tn t,.,~ labour movement in t:hi~; ::,·o rir1ce, th~ J.a~louc legislation. whi~h Goes nothing to pronote ar-.. 1 """''·''Jrrt.ge good i-:1~us trial relations. That is one of the reasons why tb:,;:oe is labotJt' u::.rest: in this pravince.

No attempt to get along :i:-:. !1:' r • .-.~ny t~i th tl-,e labour movement in this proviTice 1 no atter.:pt to cli:dnate rh.-, anC3gonisn al"!d the conflict that is in existence. HR. NEARY: ----- A big corpo:atic·n of l<>l•')'<:r:>, that is all they are. J'.nd fin:~lJ ~ T .:t.lluded tc t!-o.~ r;re.:ttest problr-.m of a.lJ - uneoployment, a disgrace, <'. d~ame, a tr;:;.v-;,sty~ So many of our peol)le unemployed, 32,000 p.;,r,pl·~ in 1\e~T£01 .. ::-.r!l~nu. This go;•ernment cannot shirk its responsibilit~s in trying tc provide employ~~nt for our people and I say, Hr.

Cho.itJ;".,'ln, because they failed to bring in proper labour legislation and ~eouse they failed to develop economic progranll:les to provide employment for our people that they should resign and resign immediately. SOHE HO::-<. ME:-ffiERS: Hear! llear! ---------- The hon. member. for taPoile. lh. Cl1.::ix~an~ befor~ l£-Y hou. fr~encl answers our spokesm~n for ~ianpower I ~o.•onder if I co•Jld raise a matter that has been bothering me ever since the close down of the St. Lawrence mine.

And the hen. ger.tleuan 'Who represents th<l t district, Sir, has not seen fit to raise the ~natter of the spec.i<- 1 fund that was set up by the much maligned previous administr2tion to look after the widows and dependents of miners

April 10, 1978 Tape No. 771 Jl-1 - 2 Mr. Chairm«.n, on "~.>hethcr or not tJ,at fund is going to continue and for hov long will it continue. Is there a ti:ne li!!tit put on it? It is my unden;tanding, Sir, and I 01as the one 01ho nezotiatcd the setting up of that s~ecial fund, it is my understanding that it would go on ad infinitum. }ffi. ROUSSEAU: No. ------~-- MR. NEARY: Yes, yes, Sir. Hr. Chairman, the. hon. gentieman dces not know t,~h:tt he is talking about. I was the one ~o-·ho negotiated it. Did we not put a time lio.it on that? }ffi. NEARY: No,there was no time linit on it, Sir, no time put on it.

If there is a time limit it had to be put on after. So ! want to find out, Hr. Chairman, and it is a fair question and 'Je may not get d61m to it in the way ve are doing the estil!l.ltes with the hon. gentlemen on the opposite side making political speeches and using up time that the opposition should have for aeking qcestions un<ler an item by !ten analysis of the estimates 1we cay not get down tc it.

So I have to put t~e question to tlte mini.ster under h:!s salary of whether or not this fund is going to continue indefinitely or will there be a point .when it ldll be d::-opped and the 'ddo~s and the orphans and those •,o7ho have been affected by the occupational health hazard in St. La....rence ~ill no longer be receiving any benefits from this fund. 1-lr.

Chairman, in connection with the occupational health and safety that the gentleman spent some time on 'Jhen the hon. minister vas introducing his estimates,I a:u still not clear,although I bad to leave the House at one point during the bon. gentleman's speech,but I am still not clear whethP.r or not occupational health is going to be placed under one minister. HR. ROt,TSS.f.AU: Of course it is. MR. NEARY_:_ It is,and the minister said that in his remarks, did he? Bas it been done or is it in the ?rocess of being done? It is being done no'J.

The first of April we are taking the Wor~n's Compensation Board and the inspectors v!th Newfoundland

Apr:!l 'fapc !:o. 771 ,r.{ - 3 Hydro o:lC: b::> t"··~cn lht. first .)f April 197~ a:-d :he !i: s t or.e.

I ·.·:11. exploin j: ,.!:~ :1 I gel u;>. ta kl;:~ ·,·..: ... ;- t h e o::::~r-n :. 5 :.;.:: : health rer.;:msibilitics fro: . :be incc ::-r( t :::<t Nin i s::•: :: of l!a:llth has n:; should not have it,and 1-.'ill the hon . gentlc:::~an be l ,,J..i l\; :::u1c over? '.-:cJ 1, !X!I"h&ps tile ho:t . g-:!ntlt: ::\.-tn will tell u.; -.•hen he (!•! r s up if t he occapa tio nal ~. ealth :nat::er is going to be pu~ und~r o:<<: u::ob::clla , und.:r one minist er and if so I '-IOuld like to knot: whe:t i:. ·.·ill h~tpp~n . ! should have happened long ago.

The hon . gcn t:l~ -..;n tells us os cf the first of Ap::il it has happened . ~cr._~q~_r> :-=- ,-. u : It "·a s i:\ the' l ast couple of o:.;eeks ue started it. Jffi: ..... n~ ;~·!~ = It has bc.an done over the last co~;ple of wec;..s . No-.: ir. co:m ectiou with Nnpo••e r tr.a:ini c g , }!r. Ch ai -.:;!'1, ! a::. s~i : l :tct convincec

April 10, 19 78 '!ape 772 IE-1 1-m: NEARY: that t>-c are y~tting the best v11lue for our training dollar, t~at l.'e are still not pro::>erly researching the er.1ploymcnt r:arket to train people, train our young ?:e•,Jfoundlanr.~r5, yount: l!'er. anc:l won c>n for jobs thc;t ?..re presently availabl~ in tl·Jis Prov:ince. You C"ll"' pick up The r:v~nin~ 1'~lc ''.r<li'1 any weel--.end~or any day for that matte-::-) and you see all l:inds of advertisements in the corr.l'll~rcial

section of The Evening TeleJ?.r.::,-, and the Daily - ~:e1:s anrl the oth-?.r newsf>apcrs around the Province for czrtain occupations, for certain pl·ofessions. And these occupation·s and these professions are not bein~ taught in the vocational schools or in the College of Trades or over at the University. So ,it ~.'auld app<;!ar to roe, Sir, that even t~ouf!.h t~e go\•ernx.ent robbed a gentleman from Canada ~'anpm·.'er there a r.ouple of years ago to put in charge of the provinc