VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. WEDNESDAY, JUNE 15, 1977 NO. 125

.!ur.e 15 , l9i7 !:~e ~ous e cet at 3:00 .,.~:. ~I. S;>eaker in t~e Chair. ~. SPEA..'<::~.: ~"t . LOS'!: Tape !.27~ r.c - 1 A poin.t of privilege. "r.

Speaker, in :1escer <iay' s edition of ":~e ::·:enir.'l Telev.-:-am in t"!e sect!on •me~ t~ey ·.-e-:-e tal;. ing aoout t!le ?assage of t!le net~ laocu r ;'.elacions \:i:l, in c!:e fi:-sc ;>aragr.li=:' , ~:r . 3pe.aker , it .;a7s t:!"ia-t ~!:e ·,il .: i.ias :l~~ateC. for ::o:-e c.?:a:"\ c:, !"ee :.ours ')·.;: ;;assage ·:as u.oa~us. ::o·~ :.:: ·,-as :::e i=? ressicn r:: -:y ::::>l.:..ea81.:e :-:-o:1 ::.:a~le !:ive -:: and ~yself :! ~ at t!:e ?:.ss a~e '..laS nee :.:nani.!!':ous; cer::ai:::ly r co not t!:ink ~::.ere ·.-~as .:1 ,;::z."lcii.::g 'Tote :a~en. : ~~ ~o t ~ow- ho\.o· votes 30 i::. c:,ac '.Jay • Out ·.:e ce rcai ::l:; :a.ised our ' :~ays' as loudly as ·,;e coulc, so you :.:r.ow, !...• :!:at res ;>ecc ·,·e co noc ::acorcs c!'!ar : he ?assag e :.;as :tot ..::~a::~:Z:ol:S, ::::at ::e i.:J.:!eec! c!',; obJac:c co t!le ?assase of ::te ilil l.

Aoc so :<e t<ant t!lac reed !nco t!':e :-ec c :-::s tha t we on this sic!e o f the House did net .:;.gree to :1::e passage of tJ:.is ';)il l. Aod as l: said, ·.-hen the vote ·.·as called for, we shouted ou-:- 'nays' as loudly as ?OSsi~le . 3ut ! co ~ot chink t~ere ·,·as a stancir:g vote .

T.1ere ~:as one ?art of ' • t~her e :.~ere ~:as a sta::tc!i::1g vote , llu t not on t~e Hhole oilJ. as sue!\ . :~ . ·:::.\~Y: :'?.. !.t:S:! : ~o s tand ing ovation . !li6ht , anc \Je jus t •;an:: it reac i:1to che reco-:-ds thou gh . .,e were or.ly s::~all ti:at nit;ht t.'lat ·•e ~id shoc t ·~ay ' as louGly as ~e could. if I ::13)1. !'lt . SP::A:<E~ : : :?.. !'t?!'i~: :lea r, !'lear! 0 0 0 :~r. S;>eaker, co :hat ?Oin t of pr:.vil.age "e revert to the point. I just \.~ant to &et ;;o:net:\i::l'l ~ear . i.Z308

J~ na 13 , Tape ~2 i6 :c - 2 a standing vote ~here you name everybody, but if you are against it you say, 'on division' - am I right or ~rror.g in that, Sir~ I ~Jould just like an interpre- tation. If there is no 'on division' call it is accepted that it is u11ani:!!ous.- chat is my feeling. I ar-1 just ~mndering. :-s.. L'CS~: "aybe :~r. Speaker •;ould not ::J.illd clarifying t~at ?Oint because =Y colleague and I discussed that, ~~hether that •..;as i ndeed t l\e case.

Our procedure is, ~ihen a question i s ?Ut those in favour 'aye', contrary 'nay' ~~d the Chair deternines ~hich is the majority and then says, 'carried' or 'not carried'. ~~en it is carried all that che ~~nutes relate to is the fact that the bill ~vas car-::-ied. If an :1on. r:tember ·.;ishes to show t:1at it •cas not car!:ied ·.mani:::ously chen there is an onus on ;lin to say, 'on division', and then the ~!inutes note that a bill '"as car:::ied on division, not unanimously. And then if hon. nembers ~ ;ish to have a standing vote there is a procedure in the standing . orders where three of them must stand. lfR.

STP~~Cll<l.)!: . 'r. Speaker, on that point let r.J.e get this correct. ~fuat the Speaker is stating is that if ~.;e say 'na y ' against the vot~ then if the vote is car!:ied then it is recorded as being unaniwous even if ~-·e said, 'nay'? :1o, it is just recorded as being carried. Yes. ~"!t. SP~R: :fuen a question is put, those in favour 'aye', contrary 'nay' then the vote is shown as either being carried or not carried. If it is shown as being carried the votes Qake no reference to whether it is unanimous or not unanimous or what the division is. 0 0 0 The han. ::!ember for 1erra ~leva. 1.2309

J·J.:12 15 ' 19 7 i :'.2ne 4276 :c - 3 ~'R. LCSR : The thing that I '{ant correct here is that the - I a~ just wondering, so that the ri3ht impression is given- that the ne•"'s

article said the passage was unanimous. ~· !y i:npressions f:::om •.;ohat :-!r. Speaker is saying is that it possibly should have just read, 'The bill •.{as passed - Car:::ied - - ~ut not carried - Z!Ot unani::1.0usly, is that correct? YP. SPEA:<E:t: All the c!:!.nutes shm{ is t!"lat the bill :~. LUSH: :tight. Okay, thank you. The hon. ~rinister of E'ishe:des. ~:R. ~·I . CA~.TER: ::r . Speaker, I '"'ant to announce to the I House some amendments to the Fish Inspection Act having to do tdth improving the quality of fish landed and processed in our Province. This has been a :natter of great concern, ~!r.

Speaker, to t!le government and to myself, the fact th~t L• certain areas fish is not ~eing l~•ded and processed in our various plants under proper conditions. It is said that our fish prices on the international markets have suffered during recent years because of the in so~e cases low quality of fish being produced. Studies have shown that per!laps as much as $20 million have been lost anually by our inshore fishermen through poor quality resultL•g from improper fish handling practices. I am not suggesting, !·!r.

Speaker, that all of the fish produced in ~ewfoundland is of that quality, but certain- ly studies have shown that a large part, or certainly a substantial portion of that being produced in the Province is of a quality that certainly is detrimental to getting a good price on the market. -~•d, like I said,in fact it is being suggested that naybe as much as S2D tdllion have been lost.

June 15, 1977 Tap<! 4276 E:C - 4 The depart!!lent, ~:r. Speaker, is very happy and anxious to co-operate with the federal government ~•ho recently announced a ne1• fish quality improvement program!!le involving an anticipated expenditure in this Province of $13 Tiillions of dollars over a four year period. This progra!1ll'le ~>'hich is identical pretty Nell :o the one that we aoplied for under a DRLE agreement provides for the installation of improved unloading facilities at approximately 200 wharves around the Provi:1ce and these 209 wharves handle up to 'JO per cent of the annual inshore landings.

It ~<ill also provide financial and technical assistance to the inshore sector of the industry to acquire ice nakin~ and chilling facilities as well as approved storage and transport containers for fresh fish. And I ~ still referring to the recently announced federal govern~ent prograDme. The Cepartment of Fisheries, ~·r. Speaker, and the government are in full agreement with this programme, and the government have amended the ?ish Inspection Act in order to accommodate more quantity control objectives and to give the department more control over the buying and handling of fresh fish in the Province.

These ar.:endnents •.¥hich ·~ere published in ':be ~lewfoundland Gazette, June 10, 1977 are primarily designed to ensure that ~ department works hand in hand with the gradual implementation of the new federal programme so that Nithin four years, all inshore fish being transported from landing points to processing plants will have to be properly chilled or iced and moved in government approved conveyances ~•hich include insulated containers.

The amendments to which I have just referred also stipulate that as approved unloading facilities become available, fishermen will not be permitted to fork fish under any c:.rct.:.ir.S tanc:es. ~':ll.. }TEARY: Did you really, finally, do away with the fish fork? Does the r:~inister think that is a problen? t Z311

,;~ne 15 , 19 77 ::c - 5 :tr. Speaker, in areas where such facilities have ~ot been installed fis he rmen will be allowe d t o use a one tine fork to discha rge their catch provide d t.~e fish is pierced ~hrough che head • . ~t :!0~ . ~<s:::.t : ''R . ~'1 . C.l.R'!E?: \..'hat? :~yo e ! can repeat ~;a t. rn a ::2as where unload i:: g f.1c ilit ies •.:ill be provided uncer ::~e ne~.; federal plan

June 15, 1977 Tape 4277 (Afternoon) PK - 1 '!r. W. Carter: in co-operation with the Prcvincial Department of Fisheries. ~. NEARY: long time. XR. 11. CARTER: But the pitchfork is going to be around for a ~ot too long. As these facilities become available in the 200 designated ports where 90 per cent of our fish is landed, as the facilities become available then we will prohibit the use of pitch forks. A.. 'I RON • MEMBER: MR. W. CARTER: AN HON. MEMBER: XR. W. CARTER: Is that suction you are thinking about? Pardon? Suction? No,no.

There are conveyor belts in - the pilot project that we now have underway in Admiral's Beach , for example, is proving to us that that kind of an installation is practical and is feasible - A..'l BON. MEMBER: '!R. W. CARTER: Hear, hear: -and indeed it works very wel~with the nets and the unloading facilities. In fact,it might well be that Admiral's Beach will be probably the first inshore· fishing port in Newfoundland this year where this rule will be enforced. :-m.. NEARY: The best one will be in Rose Blanche. MR. w. CARTER: The next one might very well be in Rose Blanche. XR. NEARY: No, the best one.

The best one will be in - MR. VI. CARTER: The best one? !-!R. NEARY: Yes. Mit. w. CAIITER: Mr. Speaker, the Department of Fisheries Provincial will lend every support to the Federal Fisheries to ensure that the new regulations are strictly enforce. Another amendment which we have recently made to the Provincial Fishery Act is to now compel firms who purchase lobster and crab and shrimp and scallop to get a special licence to do so from the Department of Fisheries.

At the present time buyers from the Mainland can come in here under their general licence and can buy crab, lobster and shrimp and scallops without the necessity of applying for a separate licence. And the House will 1.Z31.3

June 15, 1977 Tape 4277 (Afternoon) ~r. 'J, Carter: recall some weeks ago, I raised the matter of prices to lobster fishermen, and I expressed some concern then that maybe the prices being paid were not as cuch as they should be. We are endeavouring, ~r. Speaker, to control that situation, and this will be the first step in that we will now reouire as of April 1, 1978 any company outside of ~ewfoundland intending to come in here to purchase lobster, crab, shrimp, or scallop to apply for and receive a special licence from the Provincial Department of Fisheries. ?K - 2 Mr.

Speaker, I am confident that these amendments will go a long way in curing sone of the ills that have plagued our fishing industry for the past number of years. MR. NEARY: ~r. Speaker, a point of privilege or a point of order, I do not care ''hat Your Honour calls it, but, Sir, the refrigerator facilities may improve the quality of the fish and chilling the fish and all that sort of thing. But, Sir, chilling members of the Rouse of Assembly I;do not believe - MR. DOODY: I agree. MR. NEARY: is going to improve the quality. MR. DOODY: I am freezing to death here. MR.

NEARY: I wonder if Your Honour could arrange to have the air conditioning cut off - MR. DOODY: MR. NEARY: }!R. SPEAKER: MR. DOODY: MR. STRACF.AN: is just right. I just turned up the heat a few minutes ago. - before we all freeze to death in here. The hon. member for Eagle River. It is enough to freeze you, I am going to get pneumonia. The ice is still in the Labrador, so the temperature Mr. Speaker, the minister just announced a programme,which is a Federal programme of $15 million? MR. W. CARTER: Thirteen million dollars. MR • STRACRJ>..N : Thirteen million dollars.

He welcor.1e the fact: that the increased quality, of course, can only come about by the ~:2314=----- -· -- -----

June 15, 1977 Tape 4277 (Afternoon) ~r. Strachan: expenditure of money. The quality of fish and any produce and so on is directly related to the amount of money one spends in this kind of thing, and we certainly welcome the fact that the Federal Government are prepared to spend a large sum of money; in fact, $13 million is almost half of the Provincial Department of Fisheries budget for this year of $24 million. Hora or less. PK- 3 ~R. ROBERTS: ~1R.

STRACHAN: So it is a fair amount of money,~hich obviously the Federal Department of Fisheries have faith in the fisheries, and we should record the fact that they are putting in that amount of money for this kind of incentive. I am glad that the minister has taken the stance that the Provincial Department will work hand in glove with them, and try to outlaw some of the practices \vhich have been enforced in this Province, using the pitchfork, for instance.

I just hope that the people in the field who are to enforce this will do so as vigorously as possible provided, of course, the facilities are in place and are working perfectly and in order. Otherwise the whole programme will collapse unless these facilities are maintained in a proper condition. MR. SPEAKER: ~. J. HODDER: PRESENTING PETITIONS The hen. member for Port au Port. Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present two petitions on behalf of the fishermen from the Blue Beach araa of my district, I wonder if I happen to go over the five minutes, if I could say a couple of more minutes on them? ~.

SPEAKER: The hen. gentleman has leave to present both petitions at once and to go beyond the five minutes, but not beyond ten. SOME RON. ME}tBERS : Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: Agreed. MR. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the first petition reads: We,the undersigned fishermen of Blue Beach, Long Point respectively ask that the Small Craft Harbours Division of the Department of the Environment 12315

June 15, 1977 Tape 4277 (Afternoon-) PK - 4 ~R. HODDER: and Fisheries, and the Marine Services do what is necessary to complete the breakwater which is presently under construction at Blue Beach. In its present state the breakwater is not long enough to haridle larger boats to tie up 1 and consequently all boats have to be hauled up on the slipway. We further request that a second breakwater should be built approximately 250 yards from the present structure towards the point to form a sheltered habour for all boats of the area; presently no boats can be left in the water overnight. " Now, Mr.

Speaker, I am fully aware that this is a Federal Government responsibility, but I would ask the Minister of Fisheries if he would use whatever influence he has to try and get the second part of that breakwater completed. The first part was completed, I believe, last year. And since that time the fishermen have found that it is not adequate, and when' the wind is a certain way, there has been a lot of destruction, and particularly the slipway has been destroyed a couple of time. Now, Mr.

Speaker, if money is going to be spent by either government there is no better place to spend it than in this particular area of my district. Now as members are aware the district of Port au Port has suffered from high:unemployment for quite some time due to the closure of the Base, and now because of the shut down of the woods operations at Labrador Linerboard Limited. Now, this summer I am very pleased to announce that or to tell the House that the fishery in the District of Port au Port is better than perhaps in the last ten,perhaps even twenty,years. The fishermen at Blue Beach have become a minor community.

Now it is not a community in which people live all the year around but it is a community which when the fishermen go there they take their families in many cases and they live there all throughout the summer, throu~hout the fishing season. This :t2316

June 15, 1977 Tape 4277 (Afternoon) PK-5 ~.HODDER: year has been what I suppose could be classed as a bumper crop. ~ow, one of the things that has plagued the Port au Port Peninsula and the Bay St. George area,and the Port au Port Bay9 is that we have never had harbour facilities in any part of that district, yet there are major fishing grounds off shore,particularly off Blue Beach and off the Three Rock Cove area.

Because of the geography of the area, the high cliffs and everything else,the fishermen,for centuries,I suppose, have to bring the fish in,carry it up over cliffs and it is harder to land the fish on shore than it has been to get the catch.

This year, people who have never been in the fishery before, people who were formerly with Labrador Linerboard woods operation, people who were with the work activity project _ and I might say here that the Social Services work activity project last year built boats and I know one person who has been on Social Assistance for five or six years who built a boat through the work activity project and was No. 1 fisherman at Blue Beach for one week and has been in the top six since the·fishery opened. This is the fellow who had not worked before.

He got a boat built for him, the motor was procured in some way or another for him. I must give all sorts of praise to the minister of Social Services in the setting up of this particular work activity project because the fishermen, the first graduating class that came out of there are back in the±r fishing boats and they are doing a tremendous job. I will tell you what that that makes me feel good and I can see for the first time that people are starting to get back to the fishery. Now, Mr. Speaker, as I said before this is a federal government responsibility.

But I know that the Minister of Fisheries has influence and that I am sure that the federal small craft harbours and what-not consult with the Xinister of Fisheries and I can tell you now that if all help is given to these fishermen you are never going to have to worry about unemployment in 1Z317

June 15, 1977 Tape ~o. 4278 EC - 1 ~. HODDER: this area again. Because right now we have three fish buyers out there - we have National Sea, we have Allan Baker, we have T. J. Hardy,who has moved into the area with both boots- .md the prices for fish are higher than they have ever been before. I think that at one point they were getting sixteen cents a pound for their codfish. !1R. NEARY: Down in Lumsden the buyers are getting (Inaudible) :nackerel. XR. HODDER: Oh, yes, Mr. Hardy is doing very well in the area. But the fishermen are getting better prices than they ever had before.

They are back to the fishery and it is very good to see. And I would like the minister to use whatever influence he has to make sure that that breakwater is put there, because I can guarantee you that there will be a new community on the map in Newfoundland. there will be a new community within a couple of years if it continues to go like it is. I saw Blue Beach about two years ago and there were about thirty fishermen there • Now I suppose there are about ninety fishermen now. They have their fishing shacks down there.

I have a feeling that as things develop then you will find that the community will become a regular community with people staying there all year round. Now, ~r. Speaker, the second petition - By the way, the first petition was signed by ninety-one fishermen, and these are fishermen fishing at Blue Beach - now the second petition is also from Blue Beach. This is signed by ninety-two fishermen. It says: ·~e the undersigned fishermen~ Blue Beach respectfully ask that the Department of Fisheries do everything possible to get Newfoundland and Labrador Power Corporation to extend their services to Blue Beach.

It would be of great benefit to all fishermen to have outside pole lights to enable them to work after dark." Now, Mr . Speaker, as you are aware, when the fisherman comesin at the end of the day he wants to work on his nets and gear, he wants to work on his boat and everything, and there is absolutely no electricity in that particular area. And it makes it very :1Z318

June 15, 1977 Tape ~ o. 4278 EC - 2 ~!R. HODDER: difficult for t~e fishermen. ·~at only that, Mr. Speaker, but I think if we had a power line there, this would be the first step to actually developing the community. As we are perhaps aware, under centralization, one thing and the other, people moved away from some of the prime fishing areas and moved into centralized areas. Now we have an example where the people are going back where the fish is.

And I would also like to say this, although it may not be right on topic, but this morning, one man who had worked in Stephenville and had a small business gave up his business arui·is Eishing in a small boat. This morning, I am told, he came in with 1,200 pounds in a very small boat - 1,200 pounds of fish • . ~d it is one of the most prosperous times I have seen in the district of Port au Port. You know, we still do not have all the unemployment solved or anything like this. But this is the way to do it.

And whatever the ~inister of Fisheries can do - and I can tell him right now that I am behind him one hundred per cent for whatever he does for that particular district - and <Jhatever the Minister of Fisheries can do to continue employment in that particular area, then he has my full support and I am sure he has the support of people on this side of the House. A ... 'i RO~ • !"EMBER: ~. HODDER: Hear, hear!

And I plead to him, I beg him to look after - to look into both of those particular questions that have been raised here and those particular petitions, because I see the future of the district of Port au Port in the fishery . And whatever can. be done, I say that if the things continue at the rate they have progressed this year that you will see within perhaps five or six years, very little unemployment in the district. AN HON. MEMBER: Do not let MR. HODDER: Give us a little help with the industry and one thing and the other.

But by the time two or three more years roll around, the people uill not worry uhether they have to go in the ~~oods or not, because the young men are going back to the fishery. Mr. Speaker, that is all I have to say, and 12319

June 15, 1977 Tape No. 4278 EC - 3 ~. HODDER: I would ask that these petitions be referred to the department to which they relate. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Fisheries. XR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I certainly will give the request on the part of the fishermen of the Port au Port Peninsula for a breakwater - certainly will give it our full support and make the necessary representation to the federal Department of Small Craft Harbours to have that work done.

And ~ertainlv. anything else we can do. certainly in cases where maybe the Province has some responsi­ bility - I think you have mentioned the business of having some lights arranged there to enable fishermen to work after dark - certainly we will have a look at that and do what we can to encourage the fishing industry in that area. I sometimes think, Mr.

Speaker, that maybe I am a little prejudiced, a little biased, but certainly, some of the ~ney that is being spent in the Province from some of the so-called 'make work programmes' of the various federal departments of government, a lot of that money could be more properly spent on fishery related matters such as the one that has been brought to the attention of the ~ouse this afternoon.

Without wishing to point fingers or to lay blame on anyone, I think most members who represent fishing districts, fishing areas of the Province, we all recognize the need for a lot of improvements, extensions to existing facilities. I suppose there is hardly a day passes but the Department of Fisheries do not get a request from some part of the Province to support some group or other in their efforts to obtain better and maybe bigger facilties to enable fishermen to continue operation.

But sometimes I think maybe money spent on certain other projects that certainly are not as productive as money spent on fisheries would be would be much better spent in the provision of brea~Maters and better wharves and maybe slipways and ice making equipment and that sort of thing. But getting back to the hon. me~her'a petition, ~·r. Speaker, ~2320

June 15, 1977. Tape 4278 ?~- 4 I ao very anxious and willing and quite happy to support his request. And I shall write the appropriate people in the federal department concerned. ~'P.. SPEA..XER.: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. ~. ROBERTS: Yr. Speaker, there is not a great deal which need to be added, in my opinion, to the points which have been ~de by the gentleman from ?ort au Port(~r. Hodder) and by the ~!inister of Fisheries. But I ~vould like to add a thought which I think might grow out of the comments made by each of them which I think might help us to take the matter a stage further.

I think the gentleman from Port au Port (~~r.

Hodder) has made an extre:rnely reasonable request on behalf of his constituents in the Blue Beach part of his district . .l.nd I think the "inister of Fisheries has been equally reasonable when he points out that this is a very good use of public funds, a relatively few dollars invested in the provision of the necessary facilities, a few provincial funds such as the Minister of Fisheries has undertaken to have a look at, and a few, perhaps more but still relatively few federal dollars in the harbour improvements, in the improvement of new facilities for the landing of fish and for the handling of the boats which catch the fish.

I think that is a good use of money. '~at I would suggest is this! There is an existence between Ottawa and Newfoundland as there is between Ottawa and a number of provinces, a general development agreement, the umbrella agreement under which there are in existence a number of subsidiary agreements and more being negotiated. There is a fisheries agreement, And like all the DFEE agreements it is for a period of time and it can be amended. And when it expires a new one will be entered into.

Quite significant sums of money are being made available, some of them being spent by the minister's department, it shows up in the estimates, others of them spent directly by the government of Canada. fZ321.

J une 15, 19 77 . Tape 4278 ~.H - 5 )'R. !'tO BERTS: One of the matters that has always concerned me, and I guess any member who has any constituents who fish for a living, is the apparent lack of co-ordination bet~een the varying departments in the Government of Canada. There is a degree of co-ordination coming no~ bet~een the government of the Province and the Government of Canada en fisheries matters. But there is apparently - you kno~, you sometimes wonder if the Government of Canada 1~hich is so large and •1ery cumbersome outfit indeed, if really one hand kno~s what the other hand is doing.

And I wonder if there is some way in 1mich we could - not we as a House but the government representing the House, representing the people - could t~ke it up with DREE with a view to saying if perhaps DREE could become involved in small craft harbours. ~ow I know there is supposed to be liaison and there are probably a half dozen committees in effect liaising back and forth busily.

But still and all when you look at the amounts of money that are being spent in this Province this year on small craft harbours and then we could take it a stage further as the Minister of Fisheries mentioned in talking about the make work projects, the LIP Programme which has no~ been replaced ~ith Canada '<orks, phase one and phase t~o will come in a month or t~o, you know, the kind of money that is needed to carry out these improvements out on the Port au Port Peninsula is not very much money when viewed with the kind of money that is being spent in these programmes. We get far better effect with it.

Indeed,one of things that sometimes crosses my mind is what are we going to do for LIP Programmes next year, not for money. There is all sorts of money available. But we must be running out of projects. There canno .t be many communi ties left in this Province now that does not have a fine new community hall, the courtesy of LIP or Canada Works. MR. !oroRPHY: And all the graveyards must be cleaned up. MR. ROBERTS: My friend from St. John's Centre(Mr. Murphy) points out that all the graveyards by now must be cleaned up and tidied up and fixed up. '1Z322

.iune 15, 1977. !ape 4.278 RH - 6 ~!R. ".OBEiiTS : Probably still there is o~e on Gooseberry Island that needs some ~ork. But the fact remains a lot of the obvious type of projects, the ones that spring quickly to mind, have been funded over the la5t four or five or six years. Perhaps .the time has come now to go a stage further, I realize it will be said, Mr, Speaker, that these projects are not necessarily as laboU-r i~censive as some of che ochers. There is not as much

June 15, 1977, Tape 4279, Page 1 -- apb :·lR. ROBERTS: of the dollars that are spent that go to labour as perhaps go to materials. But it is a suggestion which I think we ought to look at. I think the Minister of Fis~eries might want to pursue it when there are ongoing discussion with DREE Perhaps also he could take it up with the Small Crafts and Harbour people or directly with the minister responsible, 11r. LeBlanc,at Ottawa. It is something we ought to do because the fishery - so far it has been a relatively good year in most parts of the Province.

It is obviously going to be more and more a central source of employment for our people. I think it is important our fishermen get the facilities which they need. I think the petition is a reasonable one, Sir. I hope that those in power in Ottawa, those with the ability to do what has to be done, and I think it is mainly a federal matter, that they will heed what is said here today and I hope the fishermen concerned will see the results in the very near future. They deserve it, Sir. After all, these are the des~endants, literally and lineally of the last forgotten fishermen on the Bill of Cape St.

George; these are the very men who were eulogized and immortalized by Bill Keough in that statement. Let us, Sir, not forget them any longer. !·1R. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environment. HR. MURPHY: There is just one further thought I would like to add after the han. member's presentation of the petitions; I think it is a great sign that we are getting back. I think Dr. Barrett, President of the Fisheries College, made the statement that after twenty-five years we have gone the full circle and now we are back where "'e started, at the fisher y .

The thought I want to impart is this, with the talk about

June 15 ,· 1977, Tape 4279, Page 2 -- apb ~ -1R. !1URPHY: different installations and so on and so forth, and being very much interested in co-operatives and credit unions as I am, and seeing the result, particularly in that immediate area of Indian Head in Stephenville and what ~~ey have done, I would just like to leave the thought with the hon. member, and perhaps any other m~~ber, that if he could get his group together to be a co-op producer and produce co-operatively if they could - &~ HON. MEMBER: They tried but it did not work. MR. HURPHY: Did they?

I ... ras just going to say that we have five or six competent men in my depar~~ent and any time you would like to have a meeting there we would like to send one of th~~ do·Nn to just chat and perhaps it might be a means towards furthering and improving their own lot. :.m. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Eagle River. M...R.. STRACI!Ai.~ : !1r. Speaker, I tvould like to address myself to the petition. By the 1-ray, I never thought I would see the member for St. John's Centre Utr. Murphy) there talking about and believing in co-operatives.

That sounds very left wing for the member to be talking about. ~-1R. ~-1URPHY: forrt~ard. c!R. STRACHAN : !-!R. l·1URPHY: left 1-ling and right wing. !1R. STRACHAN: lu'I HON. MEMBER: :1R. STRACHAN: Left wing? I would say centre Inside left. I do not understand these terms Inside left, left back. The old hockey game. Left right back. The petition presented by my friend from Port au Port indicates the 12325

J~ne 15, 1977, Tape 4279, Page 3 -- apb ~lR. STR.'\C~l: kind of movement that is occurring in small places around the Province, a movement which can only be encouraged by government and by all of us. I am sure that what they are asking for in Blue Beach is not money for services which are unproductive. It is not money for ~.rater and sewerage or various other services like that ~.;hich are not helping them or assisting them to earn a living, it is money for services to assist them to work, to earm money, to have pride again and to be industrious.

I am sure that both the ~Unister of Fisheries and the ~1inister of ~1ines and Energy, since the question of power requirements to the area there \vas raised, should <;rive such places consideration and serious consideration. I would again like to put in a plug for another community in my district, 1-Tilliams Harbour, which again I get back to. They have a plant there, they are trying to do some work there, it is exactly the same as the community of Blue Beac~ in the member's district.

I should indicate that they still have no electricity to be able to do their work and are trying to get into fisheries, and return to fisheries. That is the kind of thing we should be encouraging rather than some of the services that people continually ask for, but they are services which are really non-productive in many ways. So I would like to support the petition as presented by my colleague. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for LaPoile. HR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, I support the prayer of the petition, Sir.

One point that ~~e hon. gentleman made in presenting the petition was the fact that he, the hon. gentleman, felt there were a number of people now looking to~.;ards the fishery for a livelihood in this Province. I think ~~at is fairly true, Sir. 1.2326

June 15, 1977, ~ape 4279, Page 4 -- apb The other day I had the honour and the privilege of attending the graduation exercises at the College of Fisheries along with the :·1inister of Fisheries. the Minister of Rural Development, and the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environment. The four of us attended ~~at great graduation over there and I think it was clearly indicated to us anyway, those of us that 1-rere there eyewitnesses to this, watching all the diplomas and so forth being presented, that there is a trend for young people today to go back to the fisheries.

But as my hon. friend indicated, the people are going to need the facilities that are necessary to carry on the fishery. Of course one of the nest essential things, ~·1r. Speaker, is to have a place 1-rhere you can tie up your boat in safety. '~m'l that is a pretty rugged coast down there that my hen. friend is talking about and I can appreciate it because there are several places along my own district where breakwaters have to be constructed. The fishermen cannot sleep at night. They cannot bring their boats in weekends, as my hen. friend said, without hauling them up.

They cannot be continuously hauling their boats up and pushing them out in the water, especially when they get into the bigger type boats, and they cannot sleep at night knowing that their investment in their boats, Sir, could very easily be smashed uo while they are in bed asleep.

So this is a very important petition, Sir, and I have no hesitation at all in supporting the prayer of the petition myself, and I was glad to hear the hen. gentleman say that T.J.Hardy of Port aux Basques, that great, that outstanding fish processor in this Province, a gentleman who is beholden to nobody, who does not come to the government looking for handouts, has now moved into the Port au Port area. 12327

June 15, 1977, Tape 4279, Page 5 -- apb c1R. ~E.li,.RY: !·!R. :'7. C.li,.R'l'ER: HR. NEARY: I think this can be - In a big way. In a big 1'/ay, and it will do, and believe me because the hon. gentleman knows because the hon. gentleman lived in Port aux Basques! that down in Port aux Basques everybody thinks that Port aux Basques is built around C!·I, but there is a big fish plant down there operated by T.J.Hardy t~at employs a lot of people and is going to employ more in the future. I am sure that T.J.Hardy will do nothing but good and bring prosperity to the Port au Port Peninsula, Sir. ~·!R.

SPEAKER: Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees. Does the hon. gentleman \'/ish to revert to petitions? :.tR. FLIGHT: Yes I do, Sir. ~·!R. SPEAKER: Do we have leave to revert to petitions? Agreed. MR. FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A man has to be pretty fast on his feet. l-!r. Speaker, I would like to present a petition on behalf of approximately 25 persons from the town of l'lindsor who find themselves in an unbelievable set of circumstances.

I will read the prayer of the petition as it is here now and then I 1-dll try to explain to the House exactly lvhat the people are petitioning for here. ''We the undersigned all are facing the same probla~. Our basements are cracked, falling in, severe backing up of water, leaking and so forth. We would like to have something done about the lack of storm drainage thus relieving the ~Vater pressure on the l'lalls of our basements. We are all residents of Carlton Place sub-division, lvindsor." ~ow, Mr. Speaker, four or five t~328

June 15, 1977, Tape 4279, Page 6 -- apb i·!R. FLIGHT: or six years ago, Ne•ll'foundland and Labrador Housing went into this particular area in \•Tindsor and serviced developed building lots and sold the building lots to the general public. In this particular area, Mr. Speaker, it was obvious that there were problems there with drainage. Most of the people who established in this particular sub-division are low income;in some cases, people who put their faith in Newfoundland and Labrador Housing.

They felt that when they bought a block of land from Newfoundland and Labrador Housing they had a right to expect that they would get a lot of land that was fit to build a house on. AN HON. HEZ.lBER: ~!R. FLIGHT: Where is that? Carlton Place. Host of the people have no expertise in what to expect by '.ll'ay of pressure or lvater drainage and that from a building lot. They bought the lots and then went and took on very heavy mortgages and built houses. Hr. Speaker, the fact is, their houses are falling down. I have a professional engineer's report here on one. I will read from it and if I must I will table it.

"On Harch 30, 1977, I inspected your basement as requested, and the following problems were observed~ The house is situated in an area that is a collection basin." Listen to this, "The house is situated in an area that is a collection basis for a large percentage of run-off from the streets and lots above it. At present there is quite a large flow of 1.,.ater running down one side wall and one rear wall of your basement. The problem if not corrected could lead to total collapse of the walls with disastrous consequences." There are $30,000 and $40,000 houses, ~·1r.

Speaker, built in that area that are falling down and every house is affected. ·12329

June 15, 1977, Tape 4279, Page 7 -- apb :t~. FLIGHT: )jo\-1 here is t."le reccmz:.encation. ''Eli1•nination of the drainage and run-off preble."!! is essential . Any repairs or ra~edies - new there is no point in these people going out and spending $5,000 or $6,000 to replace the cracked up basements or to repair t!lem - any repairs or remedies suggested ~Till :1.0t be of any use until this proble.'lt is solved." Now, l1r. Speaker, t he ;?eople who bought those lots were under t he L'!tpression t~at Newfoundland and Labrador !lousing intended to put in a drainage system to drain the land on the back.

I"That happens every Spring 1the land is the type of lane t hat holds water, pressure is applied to t!le basements tZ330

June 15, 1977 Tape Xo. 4280 : r.·~ - l : ~. . FL IGJ<:T : and the basements are crackin g u~ and the houses are caving in. Now, ~!r. Speaker, if this land tvas serviced and lots made available to the general ~ublic hy some fly.by-night operator who was in to make a fast dollar and ~et out, then ~'e could take the attitude~I suopose~ well too bad, somebody has heen taken and there is nothing that can be done abc~t it. Eut as I understand ~rwfoundland and Labrador Eousing exists to make hol'les and make it possible. aartir.n],..,.lv low income families, to build and o~m their cwu homes and do not exist, :rr.

Speaker, to out the peo?le who find themselves in the position that the people on Carlton Place find them~elves into and that is caught in a squeeze tvith a house that i" ,.,,.,.,.. .. ., S30, 000 or SL.O, 1)00 falling down he cause the land ••as not oroDerlv sen>ice .d by 'lewfoundland anc! Labrador Housing. Ne~~oundland <O>.nd Labrador Housin~ has all the exnertise available. They kneP the condition that they were leaving those lots in. Soroe of the houses were built under Central ~!ortgage financing wich l'leant that all the inspections necessry, the standards of buildin~ are adequate.

The problem is not caused by a lack of proper building standards. ~ost of those were financed by Central vortgage with all the drain sewerage and wat have you provided, So the proble.'ll, Vr. s~e<O>. ker, is that Newfoundland and Labrador Housing did not in the initial stage properly develoo that land,and they turned the land over and were willing to sell it to unsusnecting peoole ~mo did not kno" what to exoect and neople we has got their ~mole life - they are ruined, financially ruined, the people who are living in Carlton Place right no~-r .

They could not give the houses away, Some people have refused to continue paying the mortgage and the mortgage companies are threatening to foreclose. Near the river, 'Graham', do~ on the back near the river? ~_.2331

June 15, 1977 Tape 'lo. 423() It is a ne~r housing area in T.Tindsor. 'low, ~r. S?eaker, the real prayer of the petition~I woulQ say to the minister.is that whether ~TI-f - 2 or not we are resronsible-or Housing is resnonsible to rei~burse these ~eople for the money they have lost, that is not the issue. There can he a case made for that.

But certainly the Ne~.foundland and Labrador Housing ~~11 have t~ accept the responsibility of going in and finishing the .1ob they started and nutting in the draina?e in that narticular subdivision that will relieve the kind of nressure those houses are subject to and m.~ke it nossible for neonle, if they rvant to renair their basements or rebuil1 their ba~<ements, !'lake it ?Ossible for them to do it and'do it ••ith the knowledge that any extra monies they spend will be well snent and nrotect the investment thev already have.

And another !"'essage we should get from this narticular petition is that 'lewfoundland and Labrador Housing has a responsibility to,when they are servicing land to be sold to neonle tn this Province,that they service it at a standard and to a level that people do not get subjected to this tyne of thing and probably blow their life savings in building houses on a niece of land that ~•as never adequately serviced in the first nlace. ~. ROBERTS: ~R. SPEAF'ER: <Iousin!!=. Vf.!. l)INN: Hear! Hear! The hon. Minister of ''unicipal Affairs ;md Yes, '{r.

Sneaker, First of all I ~muld hone the han. mel"'ber would table the letter that he read from so that I can use it in ~y investigation. I intend to look into the matter and see if there is somethinr. that can be done, If there is I will notify the han. member about that. :!R. SPEft.KER: The hon. me!Ttber for St. George's,. 12332

June 15, 1977 Tane '!o. 4230 \]Y - 3 ''RS. "--\CISAAC: '~. Spe ~k er, I heg leave to present a oetition on behalf of 102 residents of the conmunity of Barachois Brook in the district of St. George's. I believe this may be the first netition of its kind presented, It says, "He tb.e residents of Barachois Brook in the district of St. Geor ge's hereby ?etition the Deoartment of Transoortation and Communications to exercise ~ore caution and control in the distribution of salt on the hi~hway bet~'een Sea burt's Farm and Barachois Brook Bridge.

The recent controversy concernin~ salt seepage into wells ad;acent to highway has caused considerable concern to residents of this area and has !'rompted us to rec:uest th10.t some consideration be ~iven to the use of sand or a mixture of sand and salt and that oure salt be used only in extremely icy conditions. "'·le feel that continued use of pure salt ~.rill eventually cause seepage into ''ells thereby causir-g great i nconvenience. The possible health hazard resulting from the seena~e is a ~tter of great concern and we request that some consideration be given to this !'roposal." ·~r.

Speaker, the people of this area are very much concerned about salt seepage into the wells. They live in an area where they do not have a col11111unity ''ater supply. In fact the whole community is serviced only by about - there are only about four wells in the area and the houses and the ''ells are in close oroximity to the road, There is a lot of concern that: maybe salt may seen into the wells causing i nconvenience aLd as well as the nossible health hazard.

I thirk in recent months there has been quite a blt of controversy over it. ~ow I am not about to ask the gove~. ent to discontinue the use of salt .and the oeoole in this area have not asked that either. TI1ey have asked that caution be userl and tr~t pure salt he used only in extremely icy conditions. 1.Z333

.June 15, 1977 Tan" ~:o. 4280 'r.-1 - 4 "R'i. ~rACISAAC:, There is an a!'nlica tion in to the IJater <;prv1,..,.,. Division of ~~niciual Affairs now for a community water suuuly for that area and~as I said,there is only about four good wells in the areR so naturally there is great concern. I ask that this petition be nlaced on the table of the House and referred to the deuartment to which it relates. MR. SPEA .. 'IITR: '-~. '.!ORGA...'!: The hon. '!inister of Trans t:~ ortation and Communications. ~r. Sneaker, a few words on the oetition. I nust admit that it is the first I have heard a petition of this nature.

Usually it is the other way around, esneciall~r in the lfinterti.':le vhen the people are orotesting and oetitioning the goverr~ent, and oarticularlv the Denartment of Transuortation and Communications 1 to have more salt on the roads. They usually comp,lain to the effect thzt there is not enou~h salt and ice control meRsures taken by the denartment.

I 1vould like to indicate that last year, for examole 1 the total amount of salt used throughout the Province was in the vicinity of ll8,00n - ll9,UOO tons, which averages out around 40 tons per mile,and looking at the fact that this is considerable cost to the taxrayers, it compares for examole back in 1971 1•hen we were using 21 tons per mile th!'oughout the Province. The demands of the public of course is to obtain the nest effective and efficient transoortation system we can~and the most oossible safety condition of our roads that we possiblv can,and that is the aim of the department.

However, there comes a time when we have to look at the effect that salt is having on our roads, not only the wells of families in arePs lil~e Barachois Brook but also on the bridge decks, the road beds, and the environment along the roadways. And I know this is a grave concern to my colleague, the l1inister of the Environment, and his counterparts across the nation in their recent discussions. So maybe we will have to come to a day when 1•e 1dll have to ir'.dicn.te to the public that we will have to - :naybe ther::~ "ill ~e less tZ334

June 15, 1977 Tape ~lo. 4280 "R. ~-~ORCA.. 'I: demands in the Hintertil'le and realize that we cannot continue this kind of heavy use of salt.

And of course if you use sand on the paved roads, sand is not effective at all in melting the ice off the paved roads and it is therefore very ineffective as a ice control tr.easure, So the only solution is to the noint of having maybe not as good a driving condition in the '-lintertime as neople are de!!landing to have, and the only solution there of course is to reduce our level of service by a means in this case, as the petition !s asking, reducing the amount of salt used. ~"R. P.ORERTS: '!

R. 'IOtlGA..'!: (Inaudihle) 'r.1e e=erimen t we used last 1<in ter, '~e did get involved in usin11: a liquid calcium, a chloride with the salt. AN HON. "D!EER: ~. :"!ORCA..'!: Devastating. It activates the salt more effectively, more fast,I should say, much faster and in lm~er temneratures. Ho,Jever, that is evf'n more costly than just using salt. :-<:!' .• ROBERTS: on the cars. "R. ~OPGAN: And there ~~s considerable comolaint but of course it was not with any definite tan~ible evidence that it does rust out the cars much faster than iust the pure salt or liauid after the salt melts an the roads.

However, the oetition, like T mentioned~is something different fro!'l other "IO'=itions and it is of course not only to my colleague, the ~inister of the Environment: but to myself as well because of the extreme heavy cost to the taxpayers and the demands are so great by the public of the !'rovince in keeoing the roads free of ice in the lnntertime. !i? .• SPEAKER: '!R. ~-!TTRPF!Y: The hon. ~inister of Consumer Affairs and Enviro~ent. As the hon. minister has said, it is auite a concern to the Deoart~ent of the Environment.

As a matter of fact, during the t)inter and earlv ~pring actuall~r 1ee carried out sol'lle tests on some of the waterways alan.~ the Trans-Canada lZ335

June 15, 1977 Tapa no. 4281 Page 1 - ms ~r. Murtlhv. H1~hwAv and the salinity effect on fish in rivers and ponds, out fortunately the volume of water was enough to dilute the salt content. So I would like to express sympathy with the hen. member and just assure her that if there is anything we can do as far as testing or anything else is concerned qr any assistance, feel free to call on us or our West Coast office. I am sure that anything we can do we can certainly do. Meanwhile we are, as members are aware, preparing a well drilling act that would cover drilling wells and helping people and this type of thing.

So I hope that, not in the very immediate future, but not too far in the distant future, we will be able to help people who have problems with this type of thing, with their drinking water. ~. SPEAKER: The hen. member for LaPoile. MR. ~RY: Mr. Speaker, seeing that my hen. friend's district adjoins the glorious and historic district of LaPoile, Sir, I feel obligated to support the petition presented by my colleague in the sister district of St. George's to have something done about this problem of salt running off the road into the drinking water in the Wintertime and in the Spring of the year. Mr.

Speaker, it is not in my opinion a great problem. All the minister has to do is put curb and gutter along in Barachois Brook where the houses are. That is all. ~'!R. MORGAN: MR. NEARY: ~. MORGAN: MR. NEARY: There is more than that. No, there is no more than that to it. Cut down on the salt. Just have the water run down to a catch pit somewhere, have a manhole there, and have the water·run away from the wells and from the drinking water in the area. MR. MORGAN: MR. NEARY: In the Spring of the year, it does not overflow - Well, it may not flow over that much but, you know, really something should be done about it.

I do not think you can really cut down on the use of salt very much in that particular area. That is one 1~6

June 15, 1977 Tape no. 4281 Page 2 - ms Xr. ~earv. of the most hazardous pieces of highway in this Prov~ce, between Stephenville and Port aux Basques. I am getting to be a real road runner out there, Mr. Speaker, and I can tell you that in the Wintertime it is a very hazardous piece of highway. The minister came down over it with me, I believe, ~ate this Spring, and on the way down I said to the minister,"! will bet you a dollar we will see a tractor-trailer bottom up before we come back;' Well, we did not see one on the way down, but sure enough coming back there was one off the road and almost bottom up.

So it is a bit of a problem, Sir. I believe it can be rectified, and I have no hesitation in supporting the prayer of the petition. ORAL QtESTIONS: XR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Xinister of Fisheries, arising out the recent announcement that tenders have been called for the construction, I believe, of twenty longliners. (I do not know what the bell is. Somebody is stuck in an elevator,apparently.) Can the minister tell us, Sir, whether any contracts have been awarded for the construction of any of these ships?

And can he also tell us - I mean~I will save a supplementary or two by asking him, because tbev are all the same question - can he tell us whether,or can he assure us rather that the contracts when awarded will go to more than one yard? And also, are the government going to get involved in purchasing the supplies that go into the construction of these ships or will they look to the contractors who have undertaken to build them to provide a ship fully found in return for the payment of the agreed upon fee?

And I ask that because I have had reports that all of the ships have been awarded to one yard or one firm - I am not saying that I believe them - I am just saying that I have received reports, and I want to ask about them, and also that all of the materials and equipment will be bought from one supplier. So what I am really doing is giving the minister an opportunity, you know, to clear up the matter. I did not say I believe the reports, but I do want an answer to the question, and perhaps the minister could help. ~2337

June 15, l977 Tape no. 42.81 Page 3 - ms MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: No, Mr. Speaker . We are this year, 1977-1978, contemplating the construction of twenty longliner type vessels as the first phase of a hundred boat building programme that we announced some time ago. Tende~s were iecently called for the construction of seven of the first twenty boats. Tenders are being called for lots of two and three. We are doing that to spread the work out and to ensure that all of the boat builders in the Province will get a chance to bid on these boats.

They can bid on them in lots of two or three or four or at least two or three. Tenders have not yet been awarded. Indeed, I believe the closing dates are sometime this week. With respect to the second part of the hon. member's question: The Loan Boards will call tenders from various suppliers for the purchase of engines, electronic equipment, etc. And we believe that by doing it that way, by calling tenders, say, for seven engines or seven radar sets or seven , whatever else we need in the hydraulic electronic equipment - MR. ROBERTS: But not the lumber or the construction material? MR. W. CARTER: No, no!

We are calling tenders for the mechanical and electronic needs of these boats. And by doing that we believe that we will get the price down. I think it stands to reason that if you are going to give a contract for seven or eight or twenty engines, having called tenders, that you are going to get a better price from the supplier than you would if you were buying one engine at a time, if each shipyard were buying an engine at a time. But answering the question, the tenders have not been awarded.

We are encouraging all boat builders in the Province to bid on the boats, hoping that it will be spread out and thereby give them all a chance to earn a few dollars and to provide a few jobs in their particular areas. ~.NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker - The bon. member for LaPoile. Mr . Speaker- 1.Z338

June 15, 1977 MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: MR. NEARY: A supplementary. No, that is okay. Tape no. 42.81 Page 4 - ms Mr. Speaker, my q~estion is for the Minister of Transportation and Communications, Sir. Would the minister tell the House whether or not CN recommended to Mr. Lang, the Minister of Transport~that they not accept any responsibility for the goods that were lost in the William Carson disaster? Did they or did they not make that statement and make that recommendation to ~!r. Lang? Can the minister clear that up for once and for all for the people who were involved1 MR. SPEAKER: MR.

MORGAN: The Minister of Transportation and Communications. Mr. Speaker, yes, as indicated yesterday to the media, yesterday afternoon, we have learned, the Department of Transportation and Communications, that CN Marine has made a decision ~hereby they feel that the vessel, the William Carson that sank, was seaworthy, and because of that they are not going to accept responsibility or liability for the loss of goods on that ship. They have also passed this information along to the Ministry of Transport. And when I say the Ministry of Transport, it does not necessarily mean the minister himself.

The minister's assistant confirmed that they had not received the report as of yesterday evening.

However, the decision has been made, and now what it means is that the $1. 8 million t~orth of goods that was on the ship, out of which $1.6 million oualified for insurance claims ._providing CN does accept responsibility, it means now that the claims cannot be processed until the Ministry of Transport appoints an official commission of enquiry into the incident, and only then can it be processed if the report indicates, the report of the commission of enquiry, that CN was responsible in the loss of the ship and it was not

an act of God. This decision has been made. The information was passed to us from officials of CN Marine, and they passed the same information along to the Ministry of Transport officials, We have made representation to the Ministry of Transport on this matter, because we feel that because most of the goods were shipped,in fact ninetv-two per cent were shipped, FOB, St. John's, freight on board at St.John's 12339

June 15,1977 Tape no. 4281 Page 5 - ms ~r. Morgan. this means that either the carrier - in this case C~ Marine - or the consignee in Labrador is responsibile for the goods. And, of course, if the carrier denies responsibility, denies liability for the loss of the goods, this means that the consignee in Labrador is now responsible. And, of course, if these claims cannot be processed through insurance companies, they are left holding the bag. So in our view as a government, it is a very serious situation, and it warrants the immediate attention of the Federal Minister of Transport, the hon. Otto Lang.

And, of course, we will be bringing this matter to Mr. Lang's attention hopefully through a meeting by means of a motion passed in the House of Assembly last night unanimously. MR. ~EARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. Mr. Speaker, I realize it is a serious matter, and CN's decision, I suppose, cannoc be challenged until the commission of enquiry makes its report. But in the meantime there are a number of businesses in the Happy Valley - Goose Bay area that are reported to be headed straight into bankruptcy if something is not done to help them out financially.

Has the minister or the provincial government worked out any formula ~hereby - or any policy - whereby they can help these business people to tide them over until such time as the commission of enquiry, which may take some time, is completed2 Surely, this government has had time enough now to look into this matter and decide whether they are going to do anything to help these businessmen or not. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. 12340

I i , " .... ' :?77 . ~. ~pe2.;:er, .~s I earlier :..~ric::.teC, · . .;re are under federal e;overnl:'.ent jurisr'iction 1··e .•.re hopi;1:3 that t!:e t~!:en :Oy t~~e fere!'al ~overn:ent O'r' pc~sr::l:.r in ~joint ~-~a.y. --- ...... ~ . • • . : ; :.! • • sup::'l:r.entc..r:·, .... r. ~['eal-:er. ~upple~entary, t~e cr:!..~:in~:!. c:_nestioner.. H-r".

S!!e.i'-:er, in vie~·.,. of the fact t~ac C5 ::o\"' ·~ava announcerl t~ey ~.re ~oing to ;?Ut tP.e "'·Jl'l.brcse -::::-!ea on, and 1: e.~ r:.o t sure nhatLer t'his is a te!:1.pora.ry ~.e~sttre o'!" "'·.+tether she T:-i:!.l · ... e o~ for t=-:e Jur~.t{on of t~e season or !.':!Ot, ~-r...·-' t:-o.e~' are :oir.? to '-:-~=.nt:..a service T tt,i'::1.~::, rroul~ t!';,e :i!!.ister i!'I.Ci.cate tC"' t~:e ;mot~er sh~.p so <::r.at t~erP- "'-~1 "be no rer'uctton in scrv1.ce eit'-er tl:eir ships fro~ St. John's to Coo!"e :lay tr.is Su~er?

Yes, ... 1:'. ~?eak.er, the of~icial.s a .t: ::~,_e !'enc.rt7'1er~t of ':"rans!'ortation l--.11.s l: ee~ in contact "ith the c:fici<'~S or ~:a ser~i or :;>eo-:Jle in r'CT :•nrir.e :md e:tpressi:!g concern ever t~e fe.ct that :'f'r.::ot:se cne C>oat is "101-1 ra,..over', frOM t~:e ~.rgentia nm, nepe].:, t~e .'::-brose o:o~.e.a, t!:?.t t,c~.t: i!= c~ .1. t:e'f'1'Cre!ry assi~T""ent to t~.e IsJ.2.nC ~art to se~ice all ~u!!'!!ler '·'hich t'leans that :!.t •fill !'educe the level C'': scr-.-~. ce ~r~ ~Torth ~y~ney to Ar;entia and lool:ing C~.t a ti~e ~;hen ,.1e fee~ t~ere ;_~ :r.:tng to 1-.e a t"'.ajo't' ~.r..'*:!u~, hopefully .?. ~n.jor ::!..nflu:t, ~-Te .. ~c fee 1 :=t 1Z34:1

, ~ -~. - i::1. t~.e tourists cc7"".in!"' i:1tc !:~'.e ?-::-cvi~ce t~!s year over last vea't'. ':he fact that th:i.s !s the :rear of our '77 Su."""r.er C<>~es and a nur.ber of not onl:r tonrists 'Jut :·'e;doundlanders t"t"ave~li.'1l; back .:rod forth tn t~e ··.,_inland, ti:ei:::- <lP'i'!"r"V:"t, to r:: ""'~rine to acnt!.ire a ves.se.!. . .. e r.at'-lr<'ll:r •:ant to see the ~ervice re-est:!':llis~e<' '-•nv. _(.!~~ ·· - • ~"'!'e fin,.l suprle!".entary, "'t'. Sreake"t". ·' fi~a.J surplenentary, ~hen !

T.,riJ1 reco;-ni?.e bnsiness ?eople i:l, 7-;appy .. <llle~· roose ~2y, in t~CJ. t ?re:! u.~zir: !' an<' I <:!.1"\ not quite clear on tt-.e .:ms•.·e't' t:Cat the l"inister r,ave ?e report to c;;e ~enart:r.e!lt of C:ransport? Is t':-:ere anv l.'<'.y <:t al~ tl,ese business 7eople .~o that t~ey •Jill not :1ave to be forcec! into receive't'ship nr i-:1to ban~:ruptcy? Tte hon. :~inistet' of Transportation and ro!:'municaticns.

Ju:te 15, l':?i ::--· - 3 ~-r. S~ea.~ er, c.s T. earl.~er ir..Cicc.teC., ,.-e .::~.re 2:ivi::r e·.·e~r possible ccr..sic!eration to alJ ieviate a ver""r serious situat:.cn in Labrador. Dut :,ecause ~" ~·F.rine is primarily, if not totalJy, t;,.e 'responsibility of the 'Tecl.eral ::inistr:· of Transport, ''e ,.,ilJ a~·1ait t~e <:'ecision of t=-.e :'inistry of ":'r.e.ns?ort after analyzing t::e decision no..., o£ s: :·arine as relayec' to t~en as of yesteccay. ··r. Spea\er, if ! c:1:1 inp-rec;s the :.tinister t:t3.t teen playing a little bit of a ~arne in t~is situation.

First of all they are saying t..__at t:Oe reco!":!"enc'.aticns :,ave :,een TJresentec to the ~'epart~ent of Transporta'tion, a 5ederal rlep~_rt:!'ent. }-nci agai.n t::ey =.re seyi_n~ the~r are rtot ?resente~ :,ec:1use the :-:i~i.ster ~oes not :1av~ it: :.r. ~is ~:ands. ! ~i' ccncerneC' t~,:~.t as ·-re &1.d in so~ cases -:raitin:; far t'~n years £or a pu!Jlic enquiry tc establish t~:e cause and especially 'dth the ship 01.t the "ottom and it ll'.ay neyer ever '"e founc out "'hnt ,;·as the cause, I am ,,·onc'ering ~.;!'.ether the minister T,·ould jndicata '>hether ,:m:r initial assistC'rc:e could be given or assura..'l.ce of assistance ,.;ithin a s:cort perior' r>f' ti-r.e, and I r.e~n Hi thin a nu."l!ber of cays ,to t:lese cor.panies? $16 ::tillion to a co=unity less tl::e.n l(' ,''~'"1 i'eople is a :-reat rJeal of more~· ~.nc ~i::.ister ~irst of all Trill ~<'!··e sure ~~at ther:= :..s Ftron;r re11re~~-t?.tic~ -:--l:e ~:0r,_.

""'~.n~ster of Tra~spo-rtat:fon ?.7'1.( ro~unicat::icns. I ar. sure our ~re!":f.e-r T:r:.l!. l;e ~C'J.:ing, ir.. fact ~e :rill be !"a!··inf cC"nt~ct ,...:t:.. ... ::e 1.Z343

:._·::.e. .. ...,..,.., !: .2gree ~· iit~ t~at bu~ it qef!rs Lather irregu!2.r t:cc'P..Y '·!,.._en I I t~i~.!;: !":2.:•'-e ···".e::e t'::!e confpsf.cn i~ tl-:<'lt ~T llade the decision alon:;: t"~1e li:1es t:1ey ~rill refuse to ac.ce?t H~. ~I"eCIJ-.er, e. rr,1estion to t~e ""i.!li.st:r ~= ·rl.th :re".:>.rcs to t~.e "carr! of "~'.rectors'! Ts ~here stiJ.l co. ,-C'ar~ :'elc>.ticns. "-''au '";rill ~:ave ta ~uestto!'l the , .. ~_ni.ster of t!"!.n.t ~-s t1--e jnri.sr:!ic+:icn of ~rfuc~tion. '"!"~1~ ~on. ~.f:!..ni.ste~ o: "}:~_ucati~r!..

t :·.:. = , •"-:- ccl:.;~e ~c -.;:ftnct:r:c .- ~~a~:rc1 of Cirectors? ~:-'!:' .\..::..;::~: ----- ·-- :"ere ~ras ~o tiw.e SIJent. :1-.e "":eet~ngs ,.,,ere ·.nr1 the -~.~-':""-,- 0 . - . ------- :he hem. :'i:Jister of ·.:r'?.nsportacio!l aad ~":"'".. : --.c.'.::: earlier in t~e :Iouse of .\.sSP.t!'.b!.v l:ere t~12.t ·--e ~.:ere 6i' . .,.in~ cc~.s:C.Eration. '"'lig:Y..:ay systei:'!, rainly the :'~::lns-,..an3C.a ~!ighway anc.~ t:,.ere is ~.,.rer; ?OSsi!Jility t~:at :::-e speec1 1-i:I".it "'ilJ. 1Je reducec ':-v f~ve C!'i.}es ?er ~.our ]!rio!." to tl:e c::C (. = :'e?':e~ber of tT:i.s year;:::-.ic:'l is the c'eaflline cf. a..!.l t~e 'ro'~r:..nces 2.crcss the :-.aticr. · .. ;ill ';e ch.n.n~i:11.g over r'.:ei.r 2re ~ ... :f_y:_ng e,.rery considern.tinn tr, '!..t 211C. there is e~:·zry pcssi':~_lit,_ .. this year.

A supple':"entary, ''r. Spea!,er. _"-. su;>plerentary. :12345

, · :.ta: : :- c: !ee ~. :.:, :t.Z346

June 15, 1977, Tape 4283, Page 1 -- apb · · ~R. ~AnRGA:I: in co-ordination ••ith the federal government, the Ministry of Transoort Safety Division, whereby we are using an educational program and we are involved in that in educating the motorists in the benefits of using seat belts in a voluntarv way. ~ 1 R • H 0 D D E R : A final supolementary, '•1r. Soeaker. ~l R. SPEAKER: A final suoolementarv followed by the han. gentleman for Carbonear. ~· 1 R .

H 0 D DE R. : S t i 1 1 o n s a f e t y i n t h e Province and on the highways, ~ill the findings of the Highways Safety Advisory Board, which travelled from town to town in this Province at considerable exoense to the public money,and with a considerable amount of ~ublicity at that oarticular time, will the report of this Highway Safety Advisory Goard be made public to the people of the Province? ~1R. SPEAKER: The hon. the 'linister of Transportation and Communications . i·~R. ~ORGMI: Under advisement, ~ r. Soeaker. ~· 1R. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Carbonear. rm . R. fHl 0 RES : A ·question, i1r.

Speaker, for the hon. the Minister of Justice. In view of the statements on the CBC Crime Probe on television a counle of nights ago that crime was existinq from coast to coast, is the t1inister of Justice a• .. ,are of anv or(Janized crime activities in Newfoundland to any degree? 1'R. SPE.l\KER: The hon. the t1inister of Justice. r•R. H IC Ki'AN : If I 1·1ere aware of it, :~r. Speaker, they would be ryrosecuted. gut be that as it ~ay, I think I can sav with a fair amount of assurance -- ~234?------------

June 15, 1977, Taoe 4283, PaSJe 2 -- aob that organized crine, in the sense that it is referred to by the CBC, has . fortunately not reached our shores to the extent to be problematical. i1R. NEARY: t~ r . S pea k e r , a s up p 1 em en tar y . ~1R. SPEAKER: A suoplementary.· :1R. NEARY: Would the minister indicate to the House if the minister knows if Yafia money in any way, shape or form is cominq into this Province via first or second mortgages,or for the construction of oublic b1Ji1dincs in this Province?

Does the minister know, or has the minister investigated the possibility of ~afia money being used to put uo public buildings in this Province? )1R. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Justice. ' 1R. HI C Ktl!l. N: Mr. Soeaker, I have never heard of Mafia money coming into the Province of Newfoundland for the puroose of putting up houses, ~ublic buildings, mortgages, anything, and I hooe it never comes. i·~R. FLIGHT: !~h.v not? ~1 R • H I C KM A N : That is a very good auestion. If it is coin of the realm, Canadian dollars, and supoose if it is spent for good purpose, there is not mlch you can do about it.

And I would think it would be a very, very difficult thing to trace. 11R. NEARY: Speaker. '~R. SPEAKER: ~1R. ~1EARY: A supplementarv, ~r. A supplementary. Would the minister indicate to the House then, seeing that the emohasis in Parliament these days is on wiretapping and so forth, if he has any knowledge, and I am sure the minister would ~ecause :12348

June 25, 1977, Taoe 4283, Page 3 -- aob '!R. NEARY: there would be no wire- tapping going on in this Province without the knowledge of the Minister of Justice for this Province, does the minister have any knowledge of any wiretapping going on in this Province by the R.C.M.P. or the Newfoundland Constabulary? Have there been any cases in the past year or two in this Province to the minister's knowledqe? And if so, would the minister tell the House what would be the purpose of such wire taoping? ''R. SPEAKER: '~R. HICK~1/HI : The han. the ~inister of Justice . Mr.

Speaker, I have said this in the House of several occasions. The Criminal Code of Canada sets forth very clearly the orocedure that has to be followed, and can be followed with resoect to any wfretaps or wiretapping in the Province. There is a orocedure set down in the Code. And incidentally, it is not done with my knowledge, not done with my consent.

There are designated police officers under the Code -and they are the ones who make application to a judge for authority to irrtercept or to tao a telephone line, and when they do it there is also a provision in the Code that they must advise the person whose line is being tapped within, I think it is sixty days, or within a prescribed period anyway.

Apart from that, the procedure for making it public is set forth in the Code and that has been followed. have read with interest the debate that is going on in Ottawa on that legislation, and suffice it to say that what the Attorney General of Canada has said is quite correct, namely, that all ten provincial Attorneys General have indicated to him that in our opinion the present restrictive laws with resoect to the secrecy

section of the Criminal Code which were 1.Z349

June 15, 1977, Tape 4283, Page 4 -- ao~ iiR. HICK1'A:l: brought in a few vears ago in the name of protecting the right of the individual certainly favour organized crime in the larger cities of Central Canada and Western Canada than it does protect the individual.

There is a verv clear and un~istakable feeling across Canada,that I think is being transmitted in the legislation that is presently before Parliament, that the voter believes that t~is kind of advantage that is beinn aiven under that legislation to the organized crime in the larger cities is something that is not very . desirable, but that is up to the Parliament of Canada. I notice the bill has oassed second reading and is presently in Committee and apparently it is bogged down there.

The Parliamentarians, if I may be bold enough to offer an opinion on a matter that is not in the jurisdiction of this Legislature, cannot have their cake and eat it. They cannot be demanding on one side, We want strict law enforcement, we wa~t the tools to fight the alleged organized crime in the larger Canadian cities and then on the other side say, But you cannot amend the Criminal Code to give the police the tools to do the job. SOr'E HON. ME~~BERS: Hear, hear! r·1 R.

HI C !<.~AN : They must make u o the i r minds , but that is most inappropriate for a provincial politician to say when one realizes that it is before our peers in the House of Commons in Ottawa. r~R. NEARY: A final supplementary, 11r. Speaker. 1·'R. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, followed by the hon. the member for Eag1e River. '1R. 'lEARY: ~r. Soeaker, the hen. oentleman did a pretty good job of skating around the issue. The 12350

June 15, 1977, Tape 42 83, Page 5 -- aob '' R. 'I EARY: cuestion t hat I out t o the hon. gentleman really reauired a simole yes or no answer. 11R. HICKr1AN: Well,it is in the code. have to answer it according to the - '·IR. NEARY: To the minister's knowledge- I asked the minister, to the minister's knowledge if he knew if there were ever any wiretapping done in this Province, and the minister did not answer the auestion. Now we hear a lot of reports about - :1 R.

HI C K1·11\ N : read about one in the paper in a narcotics case which does not come under the jurisdiction of the Province. ~ 1 R • ~ ~E AR Y : I n Newfound 1 and? 1:1 i r e ta p p i n g ? '·1R. HIC!C:1AN: Yes. i·lR • NEARY : \·/ell , we have heard re oorts, Sir, about ministers, former ministers, newspapermen. I have heard members of this House say they feel their telephones are tapped for various and sundry reasons. Could the minister tell us if there is any need for peoole to worry about this kind of thing, about their phones beinq tapped?

Because it does concern certain peoole,and former members of the House and so on and so forth, and these -would be, presume, investigations undertaken by the Minister of Justice for this Province. Has the minister ever asked to have investigations of the tvpe that I am talking about carried out where wire taopin~ is involved? :.1R. SPEAKER: 11 R • H I C KN A N : The hon. the Minister of Justice. Mr.

Speaker, may I repeat that the only time there can be any wiretapping in ~ewfoundland or in any other Canadian Province is if a designated police officer whose names, I recall, must be filed with either the Solicitor General of Canada or the ~inister of Justice - I am not sure which - makes an application to a 12351.

June 15, 1977, Tape 4233, Page 5 -- apb : I R • !-! I C K '·' Ml : judge. And he must satisfy the judge that it is necessary to the proper investigation of the suspected crime for him to get an order that there be a wiretap. As I say, the procedure is also laid down that upon the exoiration of a prescribed period the person whose line has been taoped must be told. MR. ~EARY: Has anybody ever asked the minister vol~ntaril y to have their wires tapoed? '1R • H I C K~1 AN : 'I o , nobody . No , no . ~IR. NEARY: No. IAR.

HICKr1AN: A.nd if anyone should ever go out and tao someone else's line without a court order and that was discovered, the penalties are very, very severe indeed. r·IR. S?EA KER : The hen. the member for Eanle River, followed by the hon. gentleman for Windsor-Buchans. ~'R. STRACHAN: A question for the r~inister of Mines and Energy.

A couple of weeks aqo I asked a question concerning statements by Don Jamieson, the federal minister in Ottawa, and now I hear that the Minister of 11ines and Energy, Alastair GillespiE, has made a similar statement, a couple of weeks later, that there was a comprehensive package, or there was a package presented to the government for the development of Gull Island or any of the other rivers in Labrador or elsewhere. Could the minister indicate whether this is correct?

This is twice now federal ministers have indicated that there has been a p~ckage or discussions with the government concerning federal involvement in the development of power in this Province. r1R. SPEAKER: and Enerqy. ;1R. PECKFORD: The han. the Minister of Mines ~r. Speaker, the han. the Premier, the han. the minister resoonsible for Governmental Affairs and myself ~ere in Ottawa a number of months ago to discuss the priorities of the Province. 12352

June 15, 1977 Tape no. 4284 Pa.ge 1 - :!13 ~r. Peckford. One of the matters discussed over the table was the whole business of the development of Labrador power. At that meeting the non. ~linister of Energy, Mines and Resources made the stateme~t across the table that the federal goverr~ent might be interested in some equity participation in the whole Gull Island project, and che Premiar at that time responded, and I responded. And then he also indicated that he ~;anted to get the cost updating that he had requested earlier or was about to reauest. That is the only time that q~estions c~e up.

There has been no package presented to the Government of :iewfoundland in any ~;ay 9 shape or form. There was this verbal mention of equity participation. A,_"f EON. :·!TI!BER: Anything in writing? ~!!\. PEC:ZFORD: ~iothing in •..:riting. Absolutely nothing in writing. "e had ::teetings as I said the other day with officials of ::::-Ltt a~d with the Newfoundland Hydro at which time a booklet was given to those officials outlining the direct cost of the Gull Island project as it stood now.

Two elements were not in that cost update: One was inflation; the other was the cost of money •.;hich was related to inflation, those two variables which we are now pinning down to give them. Everybody and his dog knows appproximately how much the Gull Island project is going to cost. That is an irrelevancy almost in the whole context of governments getting together to do something about Labrador power. There is no comprehensive package presented to the Government of Newfoundland, absolutely not. There was this verbal suggestion by the minister in that meeting.

Since that time, as I have already indicated, Hydro has met with people from the Department of Energy, Mines .and Resources. I have talked on the phone with Mr. Gillespie - when? - the last time I spoke on the phone was Friday past - indicating to him the fact of the meeting between the Hydro officials and ~1 and R indicating to him about our very real concern about the energy conservation programme indicating to him that the other two facts not yet considered in that pamphlet of the meeting of ~ay 17 would be forthcoming to him, and he agreed •..:ith that. - ------ ------- --·---·- ---- 1.2353

June 1.5, 1977 !1R. SPEAKER: Tape no. 4234 OP~ERS OF T?.E DAY: Xotion 3. ~tion 3. Page 2 - ms ~tion, the han. ~linister of Xuncipal Affairs and Housing to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Department Of Hunicipal Affairs And Housing Act!' carried. (Bill ~o. 114) On cation Bill ~o. 114 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. :-!R. HI Cl(}!A.~ : Motion 4. ~~tion, the hen. Xinister of Municipal Affairs and Housing to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Local Government Act, 1972," carried. (Bill No. 121). }!R. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, I mean these are very formal motions but I think it is ·,;orth noting th2t Bill ~To. 114 and a number of other bills, which stand as motions on the Order Paper, have been printed and distributed and printed on them is, 11 0rdered to be printed by the han. :louse of Assembly!' .And I can apprec:iate in the government's desire to ram things through their doing this, but it is a little presumptuous of them. The House of Assembly might choose not to order these particular bills to be printed and their titles to stand as on the Order Paper.

And I suppose it is sensible to have them printed in the expectation they will be approved by the House, but it might be a little more proper, Sir, if they were not distributed until the House had approved them. ~. SP~ER: ~!R. HICIO!A.'I: The hen. minister. Mr. Speaker, I have always been getting the opposite kind of complaint from the han. gentlemen opposite that the bills are not around and out in time. MR. ROBERTS: There has never been a complaint ordering a bill distributed before it was introduced. ~.

HICKX.:\N: And in order to accommodate them, they are printed, and we now ask the House for leave to introduce the bill for debate. 1-:R. ROBERTS: There has never been a complaint about a bill being distributed before it r,;as brought in. 1.2354

June 15, 19 77 Tape no, 4284 Page 3- ms :·!R. S?EAKE3.: I ~o not know there is a question as such far =e ~o ~ake a decision on. At this point I ~o not think there is. So ilill ~o. 121. On ~tion Sill No. 121 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. mt. HICK!A".A.'l: !1otion 5. Xotion, the hen. Minister of Fi"ance to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Liquor Control Act,1973," carried. :Oill :i"o. 120). On motion Bill :<a. 120 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. HR. HICK}!AN: Order 7, Bill No. 98, the adjourned debate. :-rrt.

SPE:AKER: Order 7' the adjourned debate on Bill ~o. 98 . The han. Leader of the Opposition. :·lR. ROBERTS: :'fr. Speaker, this is the Hydro bill and ~.Jhen the House rose last night I had a few preliminary remarks and I <<auld like to carry on now with the burden of what I wish to say ·Kith respect to the principle of this bill. It had been noted by those who had spoken before me, including in particular my friend from Eagle River, who had given our position with respect to this bill, that there essentialy are two major points or two major principles, if you IJish to use that term, embodied in the bill.

One is the decision to blend - to use the word that is used in the legislation - to blend the hydro rates and the diesel rates; and the second is the decision to involve the Public Utilities Zoard in the determination of the rates which Hydro -the government owned corporation - which Hydro charges for the power that it produces and in turn sells to ~ewfoundland Light and Power,who in turn sell it to the ultimate consumers. Now if I could just touch on the question of blending, because I think it raises some important questions.

I had welcomed very warmly the government's announcement that they intended to do this as a matter of policy. I assume it will come into effect fairly quickly. It is something which we on this side have advocated for a long t il:le • 1Z355

June 15, 1977 Tape no. 4284 Page !.. - ::s l1R. ROBERTS. Now, Sir, I think the minister ought to spell out - and I ask him if he would spell out - at some length, not unnecessary length but full and complete length the effects of this. My understanding of the situation is as follows: There are - let me put it this ~ay - it costs to produce po~er in this Province, the power which i s consumed in this Province, approximately $78 million. I am leaving out of that one amount and that is the amount of ~5 million 1.;hich is payable under the Industrial Incentives Act.

That goes ~~inly to ERGO to subsidize the contract or to subsdize the cost of the power pt'ov:!.ded to ERGO undet" contract at a cost which is ,,ell below that which it costs co produce it. But, }!r. Speaker, the $78 million which it is costing in round numbers now the consumers of the Province for the power which they use is ::ade up of three separate elements. About $12 million of it comes directly from the government, and that is found in the estimates. It is Head 1104-03, and that is the 03-01, which is a grant-in-aid operations to the Rural Electrification Authority, the REA.

This is the government agency which owns and operates the power production and the power d-istribution systems in large parts of this Province. Effectively, I guess, they are the only other retailers beyond the Newfoundland Light and Power. I do not think Bowater Power is selling any power retail now. Is that correct? ~. PECKFORD: Yes. l1R. ROBERTS: Yes. There are only two retailers now, the power distribution districts on one hand and on the other hand, ~ e~foundland Light and Power itsel f . I am not sure of the situation · in :.rest em Labrador.

It may well ~e that Twin Falls Power or one of the Iron Ore Companies is the ratailer of power down there, but ~~e are not talking about that particular area. We are talking now about the rest of the Province. Well, Sir, the revenues which the power distribution district collects are about $6 million. 12356 - - ·----

June 15,l(Ji7 caoe 4283 - Afternoon :·R. ROBERTS: That is t<hat is paid by peo?le who buy their power from the poHer distribution districts. The revenue of ~<fld. Light and Power, and these are 1976 figures, ''as about $61) million. So those two together were $66 million and the subsidy was $11.3 million so you are talking $77-$78 million. Now, Sir, if the government intend to equalize rates it tvill cost that amount of r.10ney. The $12 million '•ill have to be found and mv first question to the minister is whether t~e .'1=0Vert'.r.tent intend to continue that subsidv and if so ho'" 'N'ill it he calculated?

And secondlv,the cost to the consumers once the rates are equalized tvill he ::;reater t!:l.an the cost now 'Jeing incurred because of course peo?le "ho use oower produced bv diesel ~enerators are discoura2er:! verv stron~lv from usin2 r.tore than 51'1'J l:ilowatt r.ours a month.

The rates are the same for the first 500 hours no matter ~hat ~eans is used to oroduce the oower that is consumed~ but after the 500 hour ~~rk in anv given month there is a very raoid diver:;ence of rates and the rate for diesel produced oatver climbs verv rapidly and it comes ouicklv to the point tvhere the pot•er bill is two or three times what it would be if one was using hydro generated power. ~r. Speaker, the figure I have on t!:l.at bv the wav is $8 million. I do not know if it is a correct figure but it is the figure which I am given as correct. So we are talking now of an extra $20 million.

In other words - let me be sure I phrased that correctlv. Over and above the S66 million that was paid bv individual consumers including~! am told~the industrial consumers-apparently it is not an easy job to break out the costs and t!lose were 1976 revenues, but about $66 million is oaid by individual consumers. Your Honour's light bill, the hornmage which Your Honour renders each month in the form of a check for the ~Tfld. Light and Pm•er, is included in that total, and so is mine and so are those of about 160,000 customers throughout the Province. 1.Z357

June 15,1977 A!:'-2 :~. ;1.0:\EP.TS: I am told there are rou~hlv ~n.ann in the Power .list:rii:lution uist;ricL. areas and ll.'J, !)f)() on the books of the ~;fld. Light and Po,.rer Como any. But it costs $20 million more 1 not counting the industrial incentives, the free subsidies. that S20 million is made up of $12 million, ,.,hich is in a subsidv now being paid and nroj ected to be paid this year,and $R million,•ihich is the estimate I have jeen given of what it ••ill cost to remove the 500 kilowatt hour oer mo~th ceiling that is now imnosed and to allow peonle who use diesel generated power ecual rights.

I do not know whether they will have eoual rights up to an infinite· amount of power and I do not whether if so there will be a restriction nlaced on the amount of power Nhich they can consume. I would hope we trill not get in the position of subsidizing electric power in rural areas. That includes ~v own district - not electric o~ner I am sorry, electric heat.and •ne do subsidize electric power nm.r1 of course, we do indeed. We subsidize it by $2.01) for everv Sl.OO that the consumer spends.

Because it costs $18 million to operate the REA's this year, $6 million of that is paid by the consumers, $12 million is paid by the taxpayers of the Province through the government. But the point I was making ~-lith the slip of the tongue is that it ,.rould be folly in my view to allow, not to encourage but even to allow people using diesel generated power to have electric heat in any quantity. You may want an extra heater to keer a room warm or to have the advantages of that sort of thing but to allo'• a house to be heated electrically on diesel generated power would be folly and Perhaps worse than foll~r.

So I want to know, Sir, since it dres cost at least SZ, million over and above that amount which is contributed by the consumers now, I want to know where that monev is coming from? It is very well to say we equalize the rates, and I '.relcome that~ but I want to know how it is going to be done? Is the $20 million going to he loaded on the bills of all the other consumers? In other words 1 12358

June 15,1"77 Taoe ~285 - Afternoon ~-m.. ? ..

OEERTS: are ~le going to take the costs of nroducing pmver 1o1.1icn in tile last vear ~ere about $RS million, SR6 million allowing t~e escalation for the snn kilowatt hour ceiling being lifted, are •·re going to take that total cost and divide it into the number of kilo~att ~ours that are consumed and sav to every consumer in the Province 1 "You must pay your proportionate share of that, deoending on he~ much .. oower you use~' in ••hich case the S 20 l'lillion •.rill be paid bv all the taxoavers and everbodies' hill will go up by about one third, a little under one third but about one t~ird.

I do not think that ~ould be right so I want the minister to snell it out if 'le ''auld in some detail. I think the figures which I used are correct.If not,the minister I am sure <~ill - : IR. PECk"FnRD: They are fairly correct. ~. ~O~E~TS: Yes.I do not claim to be an accountant hut ' AR-3 sooke this morning ••ith a number of neo'['lle who are knotvledgable in these fields and they tell me the figures are as close as vou are going to get without doing a great deal of exhaustive research that Hould not be 1ustified in these circumstances.

So I •.rant to know - I assume what will haopen is oart of it will be shared bv all of the consumers of the Province and part of it will be continued to be borne directlv hy the government. If that is so I would like to kno~ what effect it will have on the consumers of the Province and I would like to know what effect it "ill have upon the Treasury and I would like to knm• how the relative proportions are going to be caculated in the years ahead? I would hone the government are not using this new policy as an excuse to whack a $12 million eX?enditure out of the estimates.

As valuable as that would be to them and as welcome as it would be to the :1inister of Finance I would think that 'lould be insanely wrong to do that. I assume the government are not going to do it but I would like to hear the minister make it clear because 1.2359

June 15 ,1977 Taoe 4285 - ft£ternoon ~!R. ROBERTS: <<hen ''le talk of blended oower rates if that means an increase of one third in the rates of everybody in St. John's or Corner Brook so that peoole living in the areas where they use diesel generated power can have equalized rates ,I do not think that <•auld be a very 'rise move from any point of vie•A. ~-!E... DOODY: ~ ·11L ROBERTS: : !R .~Eli.R y : It is probably a combination of both. \Jell the llinister of Finance says probaoly a comoination. If the hon.gentleman would allow me.

The hon.gentleman is ma.ldng some valid observations and I ~o~ould like to have more peoole in the l~ouse to hear what the hon. gentleman is saying. That is the only reason I am asking for a ouorum call. HR. SPEAKER: (Dr.Collins) A auorum has been called. I am informed a quorum is present. The hon.Leader of the Ooposition. ~ffi. ROBERTS : That you, '!r. SiJeaker,Out of deference to m'l Francophone friends I will not continue in French I can think of not~ing t"at ,;auld be a less positive contribution. :~, ~EAP~: Call it a quorum. The hon.member has abdicated - 1!R.

ROBERTS: The hon.gentleman from LaPoile· is perfectly in his rights. It says specifically in the Standing Orders of the House that whoever calls the quorum may leave the chamber if he 'rishes. Hr. Speaker, I think I have made the ooint I wish to make with respect to this question of blending. It is something on which the minister can enlighten us . I am not in any '·Tay critical of the oolicy. As I have said the policy is one <•hich we have advocated for scm~ time and certainly very much ,;elcome~but I want to knm• exactly '·That it means. Because of course, Sir, any increase that is :12360

, ~ ·--' E 177 01: ]_!..0,:;(10 ~reufcundland Lir:ht anc Fo•"el:" custo!"'ers, ~nv increase t·7hich is l'ttt uoon the!!' to defray the cc-st of ce!'lovin<:>: the .5"0 ::ilo,mtt hours ceilin~ in resoect of the 20,00':> custo~ers 1>ho ~uy their "Ower fr"n tl,e Power Distribution Districts, or the-se of the l'T1D custoners •.Jho consune 'JO•·rer ~enerated ~:' rliesel <?enerators, that increase uill CC"'le C'IT'. ton of the he visited uncn us all this 'TI'2.r in 2.nv E"lent. 71!.".t iPc-rec.se is con,osed of the reouest no•·• hefor.e the Public Ftili::i"'s l'c.o.-rc!, a recuest for T thin~: it is ei~ht or niP.e ~er cent, it •;aries 2.ccordin~ to th~ effective G.ate,anG.

T 2SStr:"'P -o"t of th.?.t <·rill 1-,e o:ranted. I do not kno,.r,but thP nr.ccess of the Public y-~ilities Boar~ is q fairlv ~echanical on~ ~nd if or~ ~eets t:.P. cc>nditior>.s laid c!oi'T'. ,,'i.th'!n the rate base and t':te rl'te 0f l:"eturn then the raise is 1"10re or less a.uto'!latic anc then ue are told as ,,;ell that ''e,,>foundland Hvdro h~.ve told Lio:ht .1nd Pc~>•er that there is another Slving:eino: increase. From !'lei".OL'' it is fran 12.2 ~ils to l7.9,is it? It is <' 5.7 !!'il increase ~nc! that translated into ?:he hands of the ccnsmTter t·'i.ll be about 3eventeen or eio:hteen oer cent,I an told.

So add the t<~ to~ether, •,•e 2.re lookin~ at another twentv•five ncr cent increase on ton of the rouc:hly one :n1nclred ne>r cent increase there hRS hE'en in the last tl-ree or four ve~rs. So electric no,•er is hecClming very e=ensivP. ~.nc'. t~e cruegtion is how '"!uc':t '"'.ore P.}:ne>nsive '-:ill it l:e? I ••auld like to ,..ake a very hriPf "lea in :-ehc>lF of one cor.t!T\unit:.• in r.y district, ,,•hich is the onlv col"'.munitv •·•it!oc>nt electricity,and I ~o not see anythin~ in the "olicv a~out ~akin~ av~ilable electricity to all of the neonle of this ~rovince.

I am sure that the failure to include it is me!'el;r an oversiglo.t ~Jut I :.·onld hone that the ~over!'.ment <TOuld underta,:e to nrovic!e electrici.tv ~o ,o.ll of the nec-nle in this ~rc-vince. :here are still sone, there ~re ~at :-12nv, '-,rt there are st:ill some ·~ho do not have ?Ubliclv provided 1236:1

, : --' electricity. It is :'lerh.qns .:In i:-:.G.icc?tic"1 of ~Cl\·7 ~.:1r ~•e ~2'1~ cone in ~Tewfoundla.nd. It ··•as r:ot very !"'::mv ·.·ears a~o, inceed t~e ~inister of Justice and the ?entle~a.n from ?l.;.centia. '·'est and '"'lvself Here rel!linisdnoz last evenin~ over <'. cuo of tea,and the ''inister of Justice :me t~, e g:entle!!!a.n frol!l 3urin - !' lacentia. :·est (''r. Cannimd eere on t~~ 'Q,urin Peninsula ,..ras electri~ity for '~rysto~ .. """r., no~ .. ~ ''R. ?ECKFORD : I lived tJ.,.Pre '·7hen there was no electricit?.

" ell ,t!1e '1on. ~>entlel'I<'.I! s:ws ~e liv<>rl ther.e ,.ri th him ~•he!'ever '1~ •,•ent. A.S ~ ca....~didctte il". l9~f1, of t~e chirty-three or t~irty-Eour co~•. mities in th::;.t district onl:• four h:;ori electr i.cit•; nrov i . .:Pcl '!'r.et'.ch Shore, che old \'hite 3a.v :!orth distric': ""'d t'O elect!"ici ty .,ro,ricied 1..." ?.I!"' T"!Uhlic source. .~r..c even in St .. . i.ntJ-:onv ~o s t ar.d the clc 'Pc·-;er ~o'!"f"issiol". - I ":·T:-2.5 the~P i n l~~~. ''r. 'F'rank Nf',·'bury took over the The r.r~nfel1 neoole ------------ 12362

sti.!.l h::!~.re Jarqe l!enerators in t!'-.eir ,.,:!_2'!!t~ t~e ste2l" plant. ~eserve and 2s ~er~ency. ~ut ~re still have a few com."lunities left. '·"r frier.d ::rom Eav.le P.h·er Wr. Strco.chan) referred today to ":'illi~. ms 'Q'arhour, "·7h i..c~ is in :.-..is district; I h.cve one in ~y ~istrict, <;t, t:corols. t Pill not :n "'..r.to tl,e situat" .on -'!t len~t~ except to say,~irst of ell,th?.t T h . .?.ve re'"le.o.tedl•t ;,rou\!ht it to the attention of t~e ~~r.ister and ~is nrececessnrs; secon~lv,there ~re a n~ber of f~ilies in St. t:arols; ch2!"P. are ~.'•out fifteen, :.row that fismre varies.

It cen~nris ·.cho co•mts ~nd it also deT'ends on the "1aritel status ;ot at'.'' '!iv~n ti:ne of the :leonle in St. ~;1.-rnls,but t'1er'O' are a tout fifteen fat:~ilies. T:l~r i.OH h.?_ve a r'1Rc!. ~12~r 2re onl~r ::t r.i le or so frt?T'l the ne?.rest nt:'le lin~ ~·Thich is t~e lit1.e runnino- out tC" ·~r~at ".rehat. It tvC'Iulci h~ ~ !'easonc:tl-oly s~all cost to vrov-f.re the~ ··tith nm.rer.

T am. told it ,.,ould he al::out ~30,'YY1 but I rlo ~ot have a recent estimate.I iust ••ant to !!!ake a t-le"l. nn their behalf, I think .~iven the sums,.of moneY involved it is not unreesonable to exoect that these ryeorle ,.,e ~iven nm·•er. I tl"!inl: they have also earned it in the noli tical sense. It, I believe,I·TaS one of the onl:• three nolls :.rhich I lost in the entire di~trict out of thF fifty-five or sixtv ir. the l~st ~enerel electiOI'..

It m~s the only one in the olr1 '·:rhite Bav '1ort'1 district that I h<>.ve ever lost ani' that pn.s hecause the "t: c:mcii-:!ate, t::e cl-!'3.rr.tinl.' lady ·-rho is the 'rlfe of the gentle!'Je_n :ror. "t. ~e:r"e, :·rent into St. t":.o~. rnls and saic:'., "If vou vote fer 'l!e •Je Pill ~i,re yo•1 the electricitv." And the neople there took the l:1C.v <tt 11er •'Ord, as I ?Jn sure she intended them to do, anc the~' did trln the poll, tt.telve to eleven. It t.>as hardly a landslide l:ut there lvere ":lore ""~eo:>le voted for the Tories than ''oted for T'!e in that election in St.

Carols and I think that ou<Zht to 1-e rew;.rded. I 12363

·~ " St. r.arols? c:tS·t . There t.rere abou t thi:::ty eli.:d!:::le voters t._l,ere. r~ere is i!ho•Jt fifteen familie s. !t is a very small i'l~ce, but au-ite :>rcSJ>erous . A rumber Of oeoolP. t-hou2ht: ye~rs ;12o it rioh t resettle . T!:e oeoole "ave not moved . ! 'hey 'uwe sol!'e fioe auite nroil""etous . ''o u !:r1ot.t7 all in ~11 i t: is 2 cof"!'lunitv t..'u:t !1as .:! future and .:J.ll t~e:; need re-zllv is SOr.!e elec!:ricitv. :;c-.· I !:r.o1·1 the . cost "et horne is :1ro~hly hi2 h and ! susnect ~Ot !

SUSI'eC!: ~ I kno~~ - t:~at t!lere is so::1e ques!:io:l and I t~:.~:: ::!-<>t .i.s "e--:eat !l :~e l i~t btt 1 clUnk Sr. r:rols ye~r on an e't:Hinc!iture in the REA of S-!..4, i5S,r'l00 esciretec cao-:.tal end cu=ent toye!:.'ler . I ~o not see an:; "lP.rticular e.lec ::rici:v. It i.s t hP. onh• :->l::1ce in the e!".tirE' dist rict no~o~ ·..-it~out elecc ·ricit'l . !He "roo~· i.R in c: sort <:): strn:tl'e st.:J.tus ':out "i.ven t h <> fac:t tl-.e r.air. t:<'ac is o:oi:-.? to "~ ti!locnte<i, nnP le:\ •rin'1 ~:!.shot. 'lort!le<J.c;t C tense, the nsor le · .:>ve fir:\.!.b· ''R.

PECKFORD: T~E'Y are ~one to r.onc~e,are t!1ev? '!o , 3otte have -tone to Conc~e, some have <?one to f'roque . The ~·'ise."'!ans h.~ve zone in co Ct"ooue 01nd - "J:-ta:: aro•tt C.r<>ndois and Sc:. Julien 1 s?

,Tnne ~5, 1~7i :"' - 5 Gra~C.ois and St. Julien's cl.?S electricit:;r, t;,:?.!'.ks to t::e excellent l'!ember 1.rho fo=erly served t~oo;e neonle. "'hey have no road but Grandois and St. Julien's is no•• t'le onl'T co'"l!'lunity 'vith.out a road. In a way_ it is sad that the final fanilies have left ~Tortheast Crouse bcause it Has al"'ays ~v relia~le indicat~r cf nu~lic oninion. ?o.,. .. :r Clbcut Sout:,.~.rest? 'IP... P(')PERTS: ~~. PECKFOPD : ~ro, the ::on. Le!!.der is - :To. Bac!: Farrour Conc!:-:e, Bad: t'arhour r:onche is sometines called Southwest Crouse.

But the oeonle PO~ refer to it not as South"est r.re>use hut as ~ack P.:ar!:our Conc!"!e and there is now a road bet•·~een of course ?.ack Earhour Cond1e and ranc!l.e itself. I !l.nve come across "'lan;r tir,e in !:oe'.t from ··:ortheast Crouse ::o Sout!"!n>st. It can be a had nlace <-Tith the wind con in!! fro.., the South~··es t and a lon~ •,•alk, three or fou::- :-1iles But in any event t!l.!lt is a little aw~y, Sir, fran the nrinciole of this hill but I did wart to SP.y a word i_n 1-ehalf of the neo,le in St. Carols. FF! dir:l not have an onoortunity ot the Energy estim!ltes. ~-ffi.

HICK!-IJ\N: You are still at St. Carols! ·m,, ROBERTS: 01-,no~ T. 'b<1.ve nanv nJ.aces. Rut I am sure "1an•r ;'!embers would never helieve there '·l'l.S a cmmr:uni ty !:nown as ~-!ortheast Crouse. ~""P.. PECK?O~D: I cic'. '"'-· T'tO'BE'RTS: The ~entle~2n from r.reen 'lay is f <!'"lili<!r c·•i th it. It '"as in the area RIC?:Y.Atl: It is not the only Crouse in the Province. ~'R. I do not bm.; of anoth~r Crouse, other th.,_, South•,,est. '!'here is t!nother on~ ahout eiC!ht ~ilfls cutsi.de of r:ran~ ~a.rtl~. :1Z365 ------ ---

..!une 1.5 , !.9ii " " ~ - 6 '"'! . ?0!'1~".:~: Is c:1e :-e a r."!"ouse <'.own t here?

" R. :!!C'~'-~"'l : :.rot reall y 3 communit y =>uc t!1e r e is ~":-ouse C:asc.ern ;me Crouse ~-!est e rn. : f?. . 'II)BERTS : ! co ::!Ot :::no~-1 t~e der i va t icn of the 1-10rd . ''osc of t he names en t ~ at ne:-t of c!1e Coas t are Frenc~, Basoue ~nd 3r e t on Franc~ . ~~ne reo~le to - ''?. . ~Q'l ": ~T S : r:rou se :me -.:·or!:~east Crou!i'e is t~e " L.<>.ce '"i1e::.-e n !' is !~er- ;o.n or:ce col:i ~ P.. chat a " olltician is li1·E> •' E:!.$1:-., he or.lv s:t'.!!tS ic r:-oub.t e ! <rusnect a:-.v ..,ol:.cic! .. ·r !"I!S eve r hee.'l ~ iven . . .., F.ICKY!>ll: '(;-.;o ~ is r.::."1.1e. anybc~y can get electe~ , i t is ~ett1r.~ re-e le cte ~ t ~ t is t~e -,!'\.!'1:. of a r:P..!-"ber . t..;ou 1:r.o,.,. .. t:,e fi::st t.i~e t ~ e·t t:at:e you n t fC'.ce v alue , .:~~ sccc-nc! ti:;e. t"ev '.r; ~ot-t ~C1! . ,\r.C '':!.;~n ·l ~o:r~ ~ ec elected ~~~n net re -~ l e cted , ~any ~ore . .,,r. s .-,e~!::e r, I have m~ de '!'Y "le11 in 1-.e;1 ;;l~ cf "'t. c .u0ls ~n d I coul~ vo on ~t le !: ct~ ~u t vou ~:~C' 1,• I wrulc on.l y '-e t"e"e"ltir<> .

I t hin!·. t~ese ha·;e ~ i\tst case, ,; '•.1St reo:~uesc . I L-no•·l : he iitfister is loo!-·in~ at it to~et'-~"!" ';it " ':!le ..,eo"!e ac t: ~~ 1.EA , t :-.'! "'~ ~ O"l.e r!n .. .m i.n i'r"i.nce ;'~i.!.i':) 0 Jac ~ , ! .. ,r;ul~ t- o:')~ : !lis "Yi.ll '-e ther ·•e?.r rh '\ t r:::e li7!1t:> ::iU. CO"'e . 1.Z366

June 15, 1977 Tape 4287 EC - 1 }ffi. ROBERTS: I suppose it is a ~easure of sophistication, but how quickly we have forgotten. It was not many years ago the big event was 'Are we going to get the lights for Christmas, Sir?' and anybody in public life whether he was working in the Public Service or working in political work or in the field, you know, every year there would be three or four. I am sure my friend from St. Xary's - the Capes, who formerly represented White Bay ~orth, ran into it. I mean, the big thing, the big push was to get the lights on for Christmas. And that does not happen an~ore.

It is gone the way of coopers and,you know, any number of schooners and any number of things which were part of our past in this Province. And now, Sir, let me come to the other major point in the Bill which is the question of the Public Utilities Board and the government's proposal in respect to this. Now the Bill itself I think is quite straightforward. There are a lot of words in it and a lot of terminology and a lot of ifs and ands and whereases and maybes and buts, and that is all required.

The draftsmen put them in and I suppose they are necessary - at least they are in all the time and they are in every province. Essentially what the Bill provides is that Hydro,with a capital H,must go to the Public Utilities Board, the PUB, to ask that board to deal with any proposal by Hydro to increase their rates. As I read it that is not a permissive Act, that is a mandatory Act. ~ffi. PECKFORD: ~. ROBERTS: ~W .. PECKFORD: MR. ROBERTS: Right. I use. the same word. I am sorry? I use the same word when I - Yes, well it is the correct word and it is the right word to use. It is not permissive, it is mandatory.

Up until now it has been sort of a gentleman's agreement. The Hydro have consented to appear or been ordered to appear by the Cabinet, but it has not been required by this House under authority of legislation. It may ~2367

June 15, 1977 Tape 4287 EC - 2 mt. ROBERTS: have been justified, in fact it was justifiable a few years ago when Hydro were relatively small producers of power, but today they are, well, not only the largest one, they are the only new producers of power because all new power will be provided by Hydro. And I understand that 70 per cent of the power being sold now by Newfoundland Light and Power is produced by Hydro,with a capital H, and that proportion can only increase.

Because all new power gene­ ration - I think it was 1964 it was adopted as policy, indeed it is in legislation, no new power may be generated on the Island other than by Hydro and that has now been extended to the Labrador. So they must go to the Public Utilities Board and that is fine - that is something we have advocated. Let me say at this point that I think the Public Utilities Board is the right place for them to go. ~ly friend from LaPoile and I see eye to eye on some things and we differ on others. This is one where we differ. :-IR. NEARY: Yes. MR. ROBERTS: I do not - HR.

PECKFORD: I am glad to hear that. ~ffi. ROBERTS: think it is an evasion of responsibility. In the long run the government are responsible for what the Board does or what any - AN HON. MENBER: Right. MR. ROBERTS: - public agency does, but you know, the minister says he is glad to hear it. I have been saying it for years - I think it is true. I think it is a relatively impartial board, as impartial as any group of men can be. The Chairman in particular is exquisitely qualified for his work - Mr. Clarence Powell - and it is as calm and as deliberative as a body can be. I would like to see the procedures changed.

In particular I would like to see the Board - I think this is happening - become more and more a quasi judicial body and less and less an investi­ gative or reporting body. I would like to see adversary proceedings become the order of the day before the Board and that will mean in effect that the 1.2368

June 15, 1977 EC - 3 }ffi. ~OBERTS: Board will have to fund or the government will have tq fund parties to appear before the Board. And that is some­ thing; Mr. Speaker, which I have long advocated. The Hydro Corporation will appear before the Board. Indeed.there is a plaintive cry in their report about how difficult it is going to be for them, but they ~ill ~nfully struggle on.

The Newfoundland Light and Power appear before the Board with platoons of experts and advisors and counsellors, and yet there is nobody there to represent we, the poor consumers, and we pay for it all 1 because Hydro build the costs into their rate base and Light and Power build the costs into their race base and so it is reflected in due course in'our electricity bills. Well, I would like to go a little further. The Board could order it and perhaps that is the way to do it.

The Board could say, 'All right, we will authorize the Consumer's Association or the Federation of Xunicipalities or whoever it may be - any legitimate group; one or two is enough, you do not need everybody in on it - to appear and we will give them whatever it costs them to hire lawyers and economists and engineers and other experts.' Because the only way you could take it on is on the evidence, on the facts, on the details. It is not an emotional matter; indeed,it is almost mechanical. The rate base is calculated, the rate of return is calculated.

It is a matter then of multiplying one against the other and that gives you - the product is the amount which the company can raise in revenue in the year and it is simply a matter of allocating that amount among the various classes of customer and that in turn gives you a mil rate or a rate per per kilowatt hour, and that then, determines your bill. But I would like to see consumers funded. I want to see the Board become an adversary procedure as opposed to the traditional procedure of more or less investigative. I think that we have gone beyond that.

A few years ago you would only see a rate increase request going in every two or three or four or five or ten years. Now we see them once or twice a year, sometimes more often,and I would think that in the foreseeable future we will continue to see them at least once 12369

June 15, 1977 Tape 4287 EC - 4 ;.!R. ROBERTS: a year. And I say that even though the Act declares as policy the pious hope we will see a three-year period. AN HON. MEMBER: The House should decide. MR. ROBERTS: The Board is the place for it, Sir, not the House of Assembly. It is a public question but not a political question. And it is something which ought to be handled by a body isolated from the day to day concerns of politics or the day to day administration of the Public Service.

So I think the Board is the place for it. ~ow, Sir, having said all that,I want to go on to say that I think the requirement in the Act is a farce, a sham: I think it is absolutely disgusting. I think it is unnecessary, unwarranted and unjustified. And without even looking up a thesaurus I could find a number of other adjectives to apply to it. But it is simply a sham. The Board are required - I am sorry - Hydro are required to submit their requests to the Board. That is straightforward. Hydro are required to send in any and all requests.

The Board are required to hear the requests and to recom­ mend upon them, but that, Sir, is where the requirements end. Oh,' I know that

Section 12 is cleverly drafted. It has in it the word 'shall' and that sounds like a mandatory word, and if you read it quickly it says that the Governor-in-Council shall - it sounds as if he must, he has no choice - the Cabinet have no choice except to approve the Public Utilities Board recommendations, but, Sir, that is not so. All that the PUB will be in respect of Hydro, all that they will be is an advisory body. That is not what is needed. We do not even need a Bill to do that, Sir.

That could be done simply by the Cabinet saying no•.J, '~ole ~•ant to take advice and the advice will come from the Public Utilities Board. \-Je therefore order Hydro to appear before the PUB and to state their case.' ~~d Hydro have no choice but to do it, The government own them, the government are the shareholders, and if the Hydro Board do not like it we kick out the Hydro Board and put a new board in. So essentially then this Bill really does not achieve anything. It does not do anything that is not done now. It does not implement any principle that cannot be implemented already under the present 12370

June 15, 1977 Tape 4287 EC - 5 ~. ROBERTS: legislation. It is a sham, it is a farce, it is a fraud, it is a false and misleading piece of legislation. It does not do what it purports to do and it does not do what it ought to do. I think, Sir, the government should withdraw the Bill and dispense with it, because it does not achieve any worthwhile purpose.

Even the declaration of policy, so-called, is nothing new or exciting other than the talk of blended rates and that is something we have been pushing for for years and something which could be done at any time by a ministerial statement just as it has been refuted many times by ministerial statements. It has been refused in ministerial statement after ministerial statement. Mr. John Crosbie wore out the walls with the words which he hurled against us for daring to advocate uniform power rates throughout this Province.

The government have now seen the error of their ways and I welcome that as long as they do not proceed to load everything on the poor consumers. I do not want to see that $20 million extra loaded on the ~66 million we now pay. But this Act, Sir, is a farce. It is a complete waste of time. The Cabinet can still set the rates as they wish, and let nobody in the House or nobody in the Province be under any illusions: ~ The Cabinet will still set the rates which Hydro charges Light and Power. And that is not just some meaningless or technical thing.

Given the fact that 70 per cent of Light and Power's electricity is generated by Hydro, with a capital H, and given the fact that that proportion will increase, and given the fact that Light and Power have no choice except to pass that cost on, and given the fact that the cost of power is the largest single item - the largest single item in the annual operating costs of Light and Power, then we can see that what has happened is not to give an independent body the right to set the rates. All that is happened is the independent body has been set up as a smoke screen. That is not what ought 1Z371

Jun2 15, 1977, Tape 4238, Page apo :~. f\03EP.TS: to be done. Jhat the government ought to do, Sir, is this; they ought to say sinoly but definitively that Hydro must go to the Public Utilities 3oard and the Public Utilities Soard will set the rates,and the rates set by the Public Utilities aoard will be the rates that are in effect. Because remember, Sir, there is a direct connection. !!any oeople in the Province do not realize it, they blame poor old Lignt and Power, a whiopin~ boy. ~aybe they are guilty of some things but they are not guilty 0 f this . Let me repeat the example used earlier.

Hydro have served notice that they wish to increase the cost of their power from 12.2 mils to 17.?. I t u s e d to b e o m i l s . U p u n t i 1 b1 o y e a r s a g o i t \'Ia s 6 m 1 I s , it is no'd 12.2 mils, they ,,,ant to increase it bv 5.7 mils to 17.9 mils this year. That will lead to an increase of between 17 and lB per cent on the cost of every kilowatt h o u r o f p-<> 1·1 e r ~~ h i c h ~I e w f o u n d 1 a n d L i g h t a n d P o ~~ e r s e 1 1 . I t will lead to that inevitably and immediately.

It will be passed right on and if we are now paying one dollar for power we will pay ~1.17 or ~1.18 as a result of Hydro. ~obody has any control over that except the Cabinet, nobodv. I think the Cabinet are foolish not to have put it through to PUB a~d said, You look at it and vou set the rates. Secause, Sir, what is needed is a ruthless examination of -Hydro. They are spending down there like drunken sailors. They are spending our money and then they are cominn around~ by Heavens :and beating it out of our backs. f!vdro does not know what economy is.

The rest of the government, guess,over the last eight or ten years has learned what austerity is and how to try to get a dollars worth for a dollar spent, but not Hydro. They are the most wasteful and extravagantly staffed oublic corooration that I ~ave ever heard of, and l thought I had seen some beauts. I am 12372

June 15, l9i7, Taoe d283, P~ae 2 -- aob :•:t. ROBExTS: not talking about the individuals down there; they have so~e extraordinarily able men and women employed. But I talked this morninq with a senior official in Light and Power, I will not give his name because it is not relevant, but a very senior ~an, a man who knows what is going on and he says, ~ou know, down there in Hydro they are hiring oeoale and advertising jobs to hire oeoole we could not even dream of. He says, Engineers, you know, ceoole we cannot even begin to think about because we cannot afford it and thev are hirinq them at ~vdro.

I told the case recentlv of a young man who ouit Hydro because he had nothino to do and he recommended - his final act was to si Qn a memoranoum to his superiors recommendinq that, ·~:, oosition be abolished because I am not doina anythinq here. He discovered later that not only had his position not been abolished but three· men had been hired to replace him, the department had been expanded. It is the classic case of Parkinson's Law, York exoands to fill the time available. Hydro needs a ruthless examination, a ruthless pruninq.

They evidence all the signs of an organization that has gone from youth to old age without going through maturity. You know, it is true that they have a man who goes out and starts their cars in the mornino. They are on the lot. That same man is the man ~ho drives the bus back and forth to Donovans. '1y friend from LaPoi 1 e ('!r. ~leary) has asked questions about that. He has had no answers to my knowledge. I cannot get an answer to the very siwple thing, How much is paid out in salaries and directors fees to senior executives?

It is true that the CFLCo jet - remember we own two-thirds of CFLCo and we are entitled to two-thrids of the profits - it is true that thP CFLCo jet is used to run oeoole back and forth to '!ontreal for holidays and weekends and shoooing trios. Those thinas ------------------------------~~73

June 15, 1977, Taoe 4288, Page 3 - - anb ~ R . ROBE~TS: are all true. Now maybe all taken together they do not amount to that much a9ainst the total cost of running Hydro. Or maybe they do. resent it and I think everybody in the Province resents paying for an overstuffed and inefficient operation. So I say to the minister one of the things he could do is take an axe, not a ~runing shears an axe to Hydro. would think any hard-ndsed consultant who looks at it would recommend at least half the people in Hydro could be dispensed with and the organization would be leaner and tougher.

A friend of mine, for examole, is a senior engineer down in Light and Power. He is a senior engineer. :!ot the senior but a senior and he says, Jver in llydro there are four men doing the same work I am doing down here and ! am oerfectly able to handle the wor k I am ~oing. You know, they are hopelessly overstaffed, hopelessly overstaffed. It is not just nit picking, this is goes right to the bone, right to the groin. It is something we should look at. It is not a scandal in the sense of the Public Works thing.

It is not a scandal in that sense, it is just rank inefficiency and completely wasteful conduct of the public money, completely wasteful expenditures. think the minister could win himself a lot of favour in the House, a lot of support in the House if he would tell us that he is ordering a ruthless study, a ruthless pruning of the excess expenditures. There are too many unanswered questions. I would like to know what the Chairman is paid and what other considerations he was given. Was he given interest free loans to enable him to resettle here? ~as he? We have never been able to find out.

We do not even know what he is paid. \!hat pension arrangements are made? The Chairman has been in Hydro for only t wo or three or four years. ~hat other senior officials of Hydro have oension arrangements made? There are all sorts of ~2374

June 15, 1977, Taoe 4288, Page 4 -- apb ~~R. RO£E~TS: questions and ~eoole are asking them. So, r!r. Speaker, the Public Utilities Board is not being given an opportunity to do a job here, they are being set up as fal! guys. I can see· it now, the government 1vill blame any increases on them but the PUB have responsibility without power, the government are keeping the power unto themselves. That is why we are going to vote against this bill. It is a sham, it is a farce and a fraud. The bill does not do that which it ought to do.

If that bill, Sir, died on the Order Paper at Second Reading, nothing would be any different than it will be if that bill gets Second Reading and Committee approval and third Reading and is given assent by His Honour the Governor. ~othing will be any different and I challenge the minister to show me anything in that bill that could not be done by Order-in-Council today or tomorrow. N6thing! The only thing that will be accomplished by passing this bill is to give the Queen's Printer some work to print up, however many copies the Queen's Printer prints up of the bills which we enact in this House.

That is all that it will do. It is a complete waste of the House's time. The government have laboured on it for months. We are told there have teen anxious debates in Cabinet and everything else. Well~if this is the best they can do, Sir, they might as well go back to having more anxious debates. It is a disappointment and a sham and a shambles and, you know, if I say anymore am in danger of using language which Your Honour could not aporove of under the rules. How, Mr. Speaker, I think I have a few minutes left. Perhaps the Clerk - I am told I have twenty minutes.

Well, I will not use twenty minutes but who knows. Anyway, I want to make one or two other ooints about power policy generally. 12375

June 15, 1977, Tape 4288, Page 5 -- apb :IR. ROBERTS: First of all I ~1ant to restate my belief and my conviction that the overa ·n cower policy of this Province is in a state of confusion and chaos and that we are going to pay a very dear price. Our consumption is going up about 150 megawatts a year. say about, nobody is sure. Forecasting at any time is a difficult business, but given the fact that power consumption appears to be decreasing, or at least the rate of increas~, I should say,aopears to be decreasing it is even more hazardous.

But I am told that in the foreseeable future we are going to continue to need about 150 megawatts of power a year. It takes a year or two or three, Sir, to bring power supplies into play. You cannot just take a decision today and tomorrow have another 150 megawatts running through your system. He are runnino it pretty close no\L '. le are not too far away from bro1~n-outs, reduced power, reduced voltages and the problems that come from that. Bay d'Espoir will co