Second Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVI No. 15- 1:30 p.m., Thursday, April ll, 1996 ISSN 0542-5492

Name ASHTON, Steve BARRETI, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Alben, Hon. DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, Mary Ann MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Rob lin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Pembina Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norben St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Ponage Ia Prairie Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Tunle Mountain Fon Garry Swan River faJ:cy N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

645 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, April ll, 1996 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Home Care Services Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): I beg to present the petition of Wendy Lewi s, Ly nette Ry nski, Derek Sigurdson and others requ esting the Premier (Mr. Filmo

n) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider rev ersing their plan to privatize home care servic es. Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Lisa Chodirker, Stephen Routledge, Christine Burne and others requesting the Premier and the Minister of Health to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care service s. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): I beg to present the petition of Emily Tarmas z, Harry Sell, Alice MWlch and others requesting the Premier and the Minister of Health to consider rev ersing their plan to privatize home care services . Mr.

Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition ofWarren Hooper, Sandra Desautels, Margaret Edwards and others reque sting the Premier and the Minister of Health to consider revers ing their plan to privatize home care servi ces. Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): I beg to present the petiti on of Gertie Becenko, Bev Forbes, Frances Rose and others requ esting the Premier and the Minister of Health to consider revers ing their plan to private home care servi ces. Retention of Hogs Single-Desk Selling Ms.

Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Jake Friesen, Lloyd Stoesz, Dennis Stoesz and others requesting that the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) consider revi ewing his decision and retain a system of orderly marketing of hogs in Manitoba Wlder Manitoba Pork. Home Care Services Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): I beg to present the petition of Mel Wiens, Susan St. Onge, Keith Boyd and others reque sting the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care serv ices. Retention of Hogs Single-Desk Selling Ms.

MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Ben. Wipf, Walter Budz, Robert Vopni and others requ esting the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) to consider reversing his decision and retain a system for orderly marketing of hogs in Manitob a Wlder Manitoba Pork. Home Care Services Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): I beg to present the petition of Paul Sokoliuk, Agnes Derbowka, Vernon Balian and others requesting the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider revers ing their plan to privatize home care services . Mr.

Leo nard Evans (Brandon East): I beg to present the petition of V.K. Wood, H.K. Chapman, Deborah Chesley and others requ esting the Premier and the Minister of Health to consider revers ing their plan to privatize home care servi ces. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I beg to present the petition of Dave Stacey, Jason Skazyk, Kerry GudmWldson and others requesting the Premier and the Minister of Health to consider rev ersing their plan to privatize home care servic es. Mr.

Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Mark Smith, Carol Simms, Lucille Langhorne and others requesting the Premier and the Minister of Health to consider rev ersing their plan to privatize home care services.

646 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April ll , 1996 Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Jennifer Penner, Deb King, P. May and others requesting the Premier and the Minister of Health to consider revers ing their plan to privatize home care servi ces. Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): I beg to present the petition of Brian Leitch, Helen Vuckovic, Ruth Major and others re questing the Premier and the Minister of Health to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care serv ices. Retention of Hogs Single-Desk Selling Mr.

Clif Evans (Interlake) : Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition ofHemy H. Klassen, Margaret Watt, Garry Froese and others requesting that the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Eons) consider rev ersing his decision and retain a system for orderly marketi ng of hogs in Manitoba under Manitoba Pork. *

(1335) READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Retention of Hogs Single-Desk Selling Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honomable member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Madam Speaker: The Clerk will read . Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the provin cial governm ent announced its intention to move to an open marketing system for hogs in Manitoba without consulting producers as it promised during the last election; and

WHEREAS a majority of hog producers support single-desk selling under Manitoba Pork, the marketing board; and

WHEREAS the hog industry in Manitoba has doubled under an orderly marketing system; and

WHEREAS processors who will contribute to Manitoba's value-added industry have publicly expressed their pref erence for orderly marketin g because it is easier to deal with one agent rather than 2,300 producers . WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister of Agriculture consider reversing his decision and retain a system for orderly marketing of hogs in Manitoba under Manitoba Pork. Home Care Services Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans).

It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Madam Speaker: The Clerk will read. Mr.

Clerk (Willi am Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT on at least six occas ions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promi sed not to cut health servi ces; and, THAT on December 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and, THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivery to non-government organizations mainly private, for-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user pay system of home care; and, THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and people's health being compro mised; and, THAT thousan ds of caring front line service providers will lose their jobs as a result of this change; and, THAT profit has no place in the pro vision of vital health servic es.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of

April 11 , 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 647 Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member fo r Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Yes. Madam Speaker: The Clerk will read. Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT on at least six occas ions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services; and THAT on December 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivery to nongov ernm ent org anizations, mainly private fo r-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and people's health being compromised; and THAT thousan ds of caring fron t-line service providers will lose their jobs as a result ofthis chan ge; and THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health services.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. * (1 340) Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourab le member fo r Broadway (Mr. Sant os). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Yes. Madam Speaker: The Clerk will read. Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT on at least six occas ions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services; and THAT on Decem ber 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivery to nongovernm ent orga nizations , mainly private fo r-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and people's health being compromised; and THAT thousands of caring front-line providers will lose their jobs as a result of this chan ge; and THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health services.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legis lative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. I have reviewed the petition of the honourab le member fo r Elmwood (Mr. Malowa y). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Madam Speaker: Yes.

Then I would request the co­ opera�on of all honourab le members in listening attentively to the Clerk as he reads the petition. Honomable members do indeed want to hear the petition. The Clerk, to read the petition.

648 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Aprilll, 1996 Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT on at least six occas ions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services; and THAT on December 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivery to nongovernm ent organizations, mainly private for-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and people's health being compromised; and THAT thousan ds of caring front-line service providers will lose their jobs as a result of this change; and THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health services.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Yes. Madam Speaker: The Clerk will read. Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT on at least six occas ions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services; and THAT on Decem ber 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was presen ted to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls fa the complete divestiture of all service delivery to nongovernm ent organizations, mainly private for-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and people's health being compromised; and THAT thousands of caring front-line service providers will lose their jobs as a result of this change; and THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health services.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. *

(1345) Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Osborne (Ms. McGiff ord). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Yes. Madam Speaker: Yes. The Clerk will read. Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT on at least six occas ions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services; and THAT on D ecem ber 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivery to nongovernm ent organizations, mainly private for-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and people's health being compromised; and

Aprilll, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 649 THAT thousands of caring front-line service providers will1ose their jobs as a result of this change; and THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health services. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak). It complies with the rules and practices of the House.

Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Yes. Madam Speaker: The Clerk will read. Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the undersign ed citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT on at least six occas ions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services; and, THAT on D ecem ber 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivery to nongovernment organizations, mainly private for-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and people's health being compromised; and THAT thousan ds of caring front-line service providers will lose their jobs as a result of this change; and THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health services.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filinon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Madam Speaker: The Clerk will read. Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT on at least six occasions during the 199 5 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services; and THAT on D ecem ber 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivery to nongovernm ent organizations, mainly private for-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and people's health being compromised; and THAT thousands of caring front-line service providers will lose their jobs as a result of this change; and THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health services.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes.

650 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri l ll , 1996 Madam Speaker: The Clerk will read . Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the unders igned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT on at least six occas ions dming the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promi sed not to cut health serv ices; and THAT on December 16, 1995, a plan to priva tize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service deli veiY to nongovernm ent or ganizations, mainly private fo r-profit companies as well as the impl ementation of a user-pay system ofhome care; and THAT pre vious cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in servi ces being cut and peo ple's health being compromised; and THAT thousan ds of caring front-line servi ce providers will lose their jobs as a result of this change; and THAT profit has no place in the provi sion of vital health servi ces.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legi slative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider rev ersing their plan to priva tize home care servi ces. *

(1350) Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honoura ble member fo r St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh). It complies with the rules and prac tices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Madam Speaker: The Clerk will read. Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the unde rsigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT on at least six occas ions dming the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health ser vices; and THAT on Decem ber 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls fa the complete divestiture of all service deliveiY to nongovernmen t organiza tions, mainly private fo r-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and people's health being compromised; and THAT thousands of caring front-line service providers will lose their jobs as a result of this change; and THAT profit has no place in the pro vision of vital health servi ces.

WHEREFORE yom petitioners humbly pray that the Legi slative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to req uest the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reve rsing their plan to privatiz e home care servi ces. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member fo r Burr ows (Mr. Martindale) . It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read ? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Madam Speaker: The Clerk will read. Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT on at least six occasions dming the 1995 provincial election, the Premi er pro mised not to cut health servi ces ; and THAT on Decem ber 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was pres ented to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls for the complete divestitme of all service deliveiY to nongovernm ent organiza tions, mainly private fo r-profit companies as well as the implem entation of a user-pay system of home care; and THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and people 's health being compromised; and

April 11' 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 651 THAT thousan ds of caring front -line servi ce providers will lose their jobs as a result ofthis change; and THAT profit has no place in the provi sion of vital health serv ices. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legi slative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversi ng their plan to privatiz e home care serv ices . Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honoura ble member fo r Cresce ntwood (Mr.

Sale) and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Yes. Madam Speaker: The Clerk will read. Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT on at least six occasions duri ng the 1995 provincial election, the Premier pro mised not to cut health servi ces; and THAT on Decem ber 16, 1995, a plan to priva tize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivety to nongovernm ent organizations, mainly private fo r-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user -pay system of home care; and THAT previ ous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in serv ices being cut and peopl e's health being compromised; and THAT thousan ds of caring front- line servi ce providers will lose their jobs as a result of this change; and THAT profit has no place in the provi sion of vital health ser vices.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legisl ative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider rev ersing their plan to priva tize home care services. *

(1355) Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member fo r Tra nscona (Mr. Rei d). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Yes. Madam Speaker: The Clerk will read. Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the unde rsigned citizens of the provi nce of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT on at least six occas ions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premi er pro mised not to cut health serv ices; and THAT on Decem ber 16, 1995, a plan to privatiz e home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivery to nongovernm ent organizations mainly private, fo r-profit companies as well as the imple mentation of a user-pa y system of home care; and THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in servi ces being cut and people 's health being compromised; and THAT thousan ds of caring front- line servi ce providers will lose thei r jobs as a result of this change; and THAT profit has no place in the pro vision of vital health ser vices.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Leg isla tive Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversi ng their plan to privatiz e home care services. Retention of Hogs Single-Desk Selling Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member fo r Selkirk (Mr. Dewar) . It complies with the rules and the practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

652 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 11' 1996 Some Honourable Members: Yes. Madam Speaker: The Clerk will read. Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the provincial governm ent announced its intention to move to an open marketing system for hogs in Manitoba without consulting producers as it promised during the last election; and

WHEREAS a majority of hog producers support single-desk selling under Manitoba Pork, the marketing board; and

WHEREAS the hog industry in Manitoba has doubled under an orderly marketing system; and

WHEREAS processors who will contribute to Manitoba's value-added industry have publicly expressed their preference for orderly marketing because it is easier to deal with one agent rather than 2,300 producers. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister of Agriculture consider reversing his decision and retain a system for orderly marketing of hogs in Manitoba under Manitoba Pork. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer). It complies with the rules and practices of the House.

Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Madam Speaker: The Clerk will read. Mr. Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the provincial governm ent announced its intention to move to an open marketing system for hogs in Manitoba without consulting producers as it promised during the last election; and

WHEREAS a majority of hog producers support single-desk selling under Manitoba Pork, the marketing board; and

WHEREAS the hog industiy in Manitoba has doubled under an orderly marketing system; and

WHEREAS processors who will contribute to Manitoba's value-added industry have publicly expressed their preference for orderly marketing because it is easier to deal with one agent rather than 2,300 producers. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister of Agriculture consider reversing his decision and retain a system for orderly marketing of hogs in Manitoba under Manitoba Pork. Madam Spe aker: I have reviewed the petition of the hon ourable member for Dauphin (Mr. Struthers). It complies with the rules and practices of the House.

Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Yes. Madam Speaker: Yes. The Clerk will read Mr. Oerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the provincial governm ent announced its intention to move to an open marketing system for hogs in Manitoba without consulting producers as it promised during the last election; and

WHEREAS a majority of hog producers support sin gle-desk selling under Manitoba Pork, the marketing board; and

WHEREAS the hog industiy in Manitoba has doubled under an orderly marketing system; and

WHEREAS processors who will contribute to Mani toba's value-added industry have publicly expressed their preference for orderly marketing because

Apri111 , 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 653 it is easier to deal with one agent rather than 2,300 producers. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legisl ative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister of Agriculture consider reve rsing his decision and retain a system for orderly marketing of hogs in Manitoba under Manitoba Pork. *

(1400) Home Care Services Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson). It complies with the rules and practices of the House . Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Madam Speaker: The Clerk will read. Mr.

Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT on at least six occas ions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services; and THAT on Decem ber 16 , 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Trea sury Board; and THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivery to nongovernm ent organizations, mainly private for-profit companies as well as the implem entation of a user-pay system ofhome care; and THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have res ulted in services being cut and people's health being compromised; and THAT thousan ds of caring front-line service providers will lose their jobs as a result ofthis change; and THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health servi ces.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legi slative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reve rsing their plan to privatize home care serv ices. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Welli ngton (Ms. Barrett) . It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Madam Speaker: The Clerk will read. Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the unders igned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT on at least six occas ions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health ser vices; and, THAT on Decem ber 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Tre asury Board; and, THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivery to nongovernm ent organizations, mainly private for-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and, THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in ser vices being cut and people's health being compromised; and, THAT thousan ds of caring front-line service providers will lose their jobs as a result of this change; and, THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health se rvices.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legis lative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

654 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April ll , 1996 An Honourable Member: Yes. Madam Speaker: The Clerk will read. Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT on at least six occas ions during the 1995 provin cial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services; and, THAT on December 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and, THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivery to nongovernment organizations, mainly private for-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and, THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and people's health being compromised; and, THAT thousands of caring front-line service providers will lose their jobs as a result of this change; and, THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health services.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honour able member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) . It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Madam Speaker: The Clerk will read. Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT on at least six occas ions during the 1995 provincial election, the Premier promised not to cut health services; and, THAT on Decem ber 16, 1995, a plan to privatize home care services was presented to Treasury Board; and, THAT this plan calls for the complete divestiture of all service delivery to nongovernment organizations, mainly private for-profit companies as well as the implementation of a user-pay system of home care; and, THAT previous cuts to the Home Care program have resulted in services being cut and people's health being compromised; and, THAT thousands of caring front-line service providers will lose their jobs as a result of this change; and, THAT profit has no place in the provision of vital health services.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) to consider reversing their plan to privatize home care services. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Delegati on-Northwest Province, South Africa Bon. Gary Filmoo (Premier): Madam Speaker, I have a brief ministerial statement. Many members will remember that we were honoured almost a year ago by the visit of Premier Popo Molefe and a senior delegation from the northwest province of South Africa.

Today we have a second delegation from the northwest with us here in Manitoba. They are here as a direct result of our C<K>peration agreement which focuses both on governan ce and on building economic development and trade links . Our agreement is the first of several between South African and Canadian provinces and was made possible in part through the support and assistance of CIDA, the Canadian International Development Agency, and the International Development Research Centre. If I might direct the attention of the members to the Speaker's Gallery, I would like to introduce Mr.

Job Mokgoro, the director general and secretary to Cabinet, Mr. Jan de Waal, the director of corporate services,

April 11, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 655 Department of the Premier, Ms. Renda Pretorius, acting deputy director of Department of the Premier, Mr. David Ceruti, the project manager, Strategic Change Management, Mr. Hannes Du Preez, businessman , a fanner and director of the Agribank and ABSA Bank and Mr. T. Gaelejwe, a businessman and hotel owner from the northwest province, as well as Professor Stefan Coetzee, chairperson of the Premier's Economic Advisory Council.

I know that all honourable members of the Legislature will want to join me in extending a warm Manitoba welcome to our friends and colleagues from the northwest province. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the Premier for his statement today and join with him in welcoming our visitors from the northwest province in the country of South Africa. We look forward to meeting with the delegation as we did with the previous delegation that visited our great province.

We on this side have been very proud that we have worked in solidarity with the people of South Africa for a number of years with initi atives that we took over the years to support the antiapartheid movement in South Africa and we are pleased that in a small way Manitoba, through its trade policy in the '80s, was able to help work with South Africa to ensure that the people in South Africa receive the vote as we believe democracy dictated for a number of years.

So I know there are a lot of members of this House who are very proud to welcome our visitors today and I also know there are a lot of very, very active people in our comm unity who were very active in the antiapartheid movemen t over the last number of decades in support of the people of South Africa to obtain democracy. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: I would also like to draw all honourable members' attention to the public gallery where we have seated this afternoon five Grade 9 students from Sioux Valley School under the direction of Mr. Dave Thiessen.

This school is located in the cons tituency of the honourable Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Downey). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health) : Madam Speaker, I am tabling today Departmental Expenditure Estimates Supplementary Information for Legislative Review for 1996/97. *

(1410) INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 2- The Municipal Assessment Amendment and Assessment Valida tion Act Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister ofUrban Affilirs (Mr. Reimer), that leave be given to introduce Bill 2, The Municipal Assessment Amendment and Assessment Validation Act (Loi modifiant la

Loi sur revaluation municipale et validant certaines evaluations), and that the same be now received and read for the first time. His Honour the Lieutenant Governor, having been advised of the contents ofthis bill, recommends it to the House, and I would like to table the Lieutenant Governor's message. Motion agreed to. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Home Care Program Privatization Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Premier (Mr. Filmon).

Over the last week we have been asking the governm ent to provide independent evidence on the merit of their decision to privatize home care here in the province of Manitoba. We have cited the Kane and Kane report . We have cited other docum ents indicating the government was heading in the wrong direction. We have asked the Premier for independent studies or advice that led to the governm ent's making what we consider to be a very wrong decision on the home care services here in Manitoba. Last evening, Dr. Evelyn Shapiro appeared before a number of clients and a number of citizens of the

656 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Aprilll, 1996 province and provided a considerable amount of evidence of why the governm ent's policy and ideology to privatize home care would in her opinion cost more and provide less service, particularly less service in the area of continuity of care with the workers, with the people and clients who require this very vital health care service. I would like to ask the Premier, will he put his minister's decision and his governm ent's decision on hold, and will he meet with people with expertise in these areas like Dr.

Evelyn Shapiro, and make a decision based on health care merit, not on the ideology of the government? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Heal th): Madam Speaker, the honourable member should be consistent. If he is going to refer to opinions placed before the public by people like Evelyn Shapiro, then he should not stick to just the one opinion. There are other opinions that have been made available by Evelyn Shapiro and others.

But certainly with respect to her work with the Manitoba Centre for Health Policy and Evaluation, when it comes to other health issues honourable members opposite choose to say, well, there is no credibility. I think they call it a Tory-funded Centre for Health Policy and Evaluation. So let not the honourable member play that sort of selective game with the people of this province. What we are trying to do is improve services for om home care recipients in Manitoba and to do it for many, many years to come. Mr. Doer: I would like to table a document presented to the minister yesterday by Mr.

David Martin who is the provincial co-ordinator for the Manitoba league of persons with disabilities. I would like to table that for the Premier 's attention. Madam Speaker, it is the Premier who is making the decision to privatize home care. It is the Premier's staff who are directing some of these decisions in health care. It is the Premier' s former chief of staff or chief communicator who is involved in some of the communication strategies about these ill-thought-out decisions. I would like to quote from Mr.

David Martin, who is in fact a person who deals with many clients, who says that many disabled people are worried about their future with home care and he has not found one person, one client who has been in favour of the governm ent's policy to privatize this very vital service, this very vital home care service. I would like to ask the Premier, would he put this decision on hold?

I am asking the Premier, the head of the govermnent, the person where the buck stops, will he put ao hold the decision to privatize home care and meet with David Martin and other clients of home care service who are begging this governm ent to stop privatizing home care and listen to them? Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, I have met with Mr. Martin on many occasions. I know colleagues of mine have done the same. Mr. Martin's contribution to our self- managed Home Care program is very, very much appreciated.

Honourable members opposite had to be dragged kicking and screaming to agree with giving some people some autonomy and allowing them to make choices and decisions for themselves. The honourable members opposite ought to be scorned and criticized a lot for that particular position they have taken with respect to self­ management for people and independence. Honourable members opposite only like to whisper their support for that in case their union boss friends hear that they support it. Privanzatio�onsuhation Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): The minister has just indicated to this House that he has met with Mr. Martin about this issue. In Mr. Martin's brief-and I would ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon) to read this because I think the minister is misleading the people of Manitoba-he says he has never, ever been consulted by the provincial Conservative governm ent about the privatization of home care. He goes on to say, Madam Speaker-and I address this to the Premier-that the governm ent is making such a large decision about something that impacts on their lifestyle, on their independence.

The government is making this major decision which they were never, ever consulted on. I would ask the Premier now, in light of the contradiction from the Minister of Health, in light of this contradiction to the people of this province, to listen to David Martin and other clients who have never been

April II, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 657 consulted, contrary to what the Minister of Health has said, and put this decision on hold. Will the Premier now himself consult with health care economists and health care clients about a very wrong decision on the service and cost to people who rely on home care here in the province of Manitoba? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Heal th): The hono urable member should understand something. David Martin and many others have followed very carefully developments in health care in Manitoba.

It was way back in 1994, I think it was, that the Seven Oaks Hospital project was undertaken and a report prepared and produced. At that time, I remember a front page news headline talking about these being possibilities for the future. This was long before the election. The honourable member-all the petitions that he has written up refer to things that were said before and after.

This sort of thing that we are talking about, the use of competition to provide better services for people, was discussed way back when, and never the subject of anything but openness on my part with David Martin or with whomever I happened to be talking. Home Care Program Privatization Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kild onan): Madam Speaker, the most needed services by home care clients is the home support program. Home support costs in Manitoba according to Professor Shapiro are the lowest in the country. In Manitoba, the costs for this service are $10 per hour,

whereas in other jurisdictions such as B.C. they are $17 an hour and Quebec, $16 an hour. Can the Premier explain to us in this House today why the government is taking the most cost-efficient program in the country and privatizing it when it already is demonstrated to be cost-effective and efficient? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Heal th): Again, Madam Speaker, there is a selectiveness here that does not bear out all of the facts. What Dr. Shapiro forgot to mention, or did not mention in any event, was that in most provinces in Canada the concept of contracting out these services is underway.

But when we are talking about costs, Dr. Shapiro forgot to mention that in most provinces of this country, with the exception of Quebec and Manitoba, there are user fees charged. Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, can the minister, therefore, when we are talking about cost and user fees that he still has not refuted from his original document, can he explain why Professor Shapiro also said yesterday, why is she hearing rumours in the system about things like core costs, core plus costs, core-[interjection] The minister laughs- Madam Speaker: Order, please. *

(1420) Mr. Chomiak: Can the minister explain why his document has wording to the effect and why Professor Shapiro said she is hearing in the system about things like core, core plus and core plus plus payments? Can the minister explain what that is? Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, I am sorry if I am amused by the-I am not sorry. I am amused by the hono urable member's question because he talks about rumours and Dr. Shapiro asking about rumours, and he wants me to confirm or explain why Dr. Shapiro is concerned about these rumours.

He is the person who is passing the rumours around. He and his union boss friends are putting out stories about user fees and cuts to services. Maybe that is where Dr. Shapiro got it, because she certainly did not get it from me. Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, I will let perhaps the bemused minister- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Chomiak: Pethaps the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) will answer this question, if the bemused minister will not Can the Premier explain why and where savings are going to be made in the program since the Premier has said there will be $1 0-million savings in the privatization?

His own minister has said there will be no savings in the privatization, and the associate deputy min ister says she thinks there might be $1 0-million savings, but they are not sure. Can the Premier explain that?

658 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April ll , 1996 Mr. McCrae: The honourable member has already made this case for me. He has, by putting-with the use of incorrect information, I might add-by trying to make the point that there is no increase in spending in home care, which any review of the budgets of this province will demonstrate there have been repeated increases year after year, but I cannot demonstrate that we can show you that we have value received for all of those mill ions of increased spending.

We are up to about 11 3 percent here in the city of Winnipeg alone in terms of increased expenditures in home care for the past eight years, and yet I cannot show you that we have increases in service to clients to that particular extent. We know, by improvements in efficiency of scheduling services and other improvements brought about by allowing competition to be brought in, that there will be savings. At the same time we are adding $8 mill ion, finding savings. These are ways that we are going to be able to provide service to people for many years to come.

If we depended only on honourable members opposite, they would be out borrowing money and so on, but they cannot do that anymore because the bankers of this world see New Democrats coming and say, stay away from my door. Health Care Facilities Closures Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, in December the Minister of Health indicated that Seven Oaks Hospital and Misericordia Hospital would be closed; Seven Oaks would be closed and turned into a geriatric centre, Misericordia into a walk-in clinic. When asked about savings, he could not answer. He said that the costing would be done before February.

In February we were told the costing study still was not ready. We are losing skilled doctors, nurses and other staff, putting patients and their families under great and unnecessary stress and holding up real reform of the hospital system. Will the minister tonight tell the patients and staff of Misericordia Hospital, at their vigil at which he is going to speak, that he is now going to abandon this ill­ advised, ill-considered, unplanned plan? Hon.

James McCrae (Minister of Health) : Madam Speaker, I hope that I will be able to have an opportunity to tell those who are there that the plans brought forward by the design teams are the subject of cost-benefit evaluations at the present time. If the honourable member thinks we should not undertake those things, let him say so. Mr. Sale: I would have done the studies first, Madam Speaker. Will the minister finally acknowledge that the real savings in closing these hospitals, whose combined budget is over $96 million a year, will not likely even reach 10 percent of this total and may well be less?

Will he finally admit that he has no plan and virtually no costing data at all at this time? Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, if the honourable member is so interested in savings, let him track down his good friend Bob Rae and find out how much the closure of 10,000 acute hospital beds in Ontario saved that particular gov ernm ent. Let the honourable member ask his friends in Saskatchewan how much they saved by closing down 52 rural hospitals in the NDP province of Saskatchewan .

If the ho noura ble member is suggesting that we should be proceeding with either abandoning or accepting recommendations without the benefit of a cost-benefit analysis, let him say so. Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, will the minister then commit today to releasing the costing data before any decision is made so that Manitobans can judge for themselves the merits of closing and changing these hospitals in Winnipeg? Mr.

McCrae: Until the cost-benefit analysis is completed, I do not have anything to make available to the honourable member, but like everything else in this process, it has been an extremely open process, and I am-[intetjection] Well, the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) was invited and took part to some extent in the discussions in the forum put on by KPMG, which is all part and parcel of this process. The honourable member for Kildonan himself was involved in that. The member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale), I do not know. Did you show up? I forget.

But the honourable member may have been there as well, so do not tell me that it is not an open process. That is exactly what it is, and that is why there is so much debate about it-because it is a very open process.

April ll , 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 659 Home Care Program Privatization-Rural Manitoba Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, even though this government has no studi es or reports to prove that home care will improve under privatization, they are continuing on this path, and they are misleading people in rural Manitoba by saying that there will be no changes to the delivery of home care in the rural area. In fact, all direct service workers in rural Manitoba have received a letter saying there will be no changes in how home care will be delivered in rural Manitob a.

I want to ask the minister how he can make statements like that when his own cabinet document says that the rural health au thorities will take over all delivery services, including home care services, by April 1997. Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health) : I thank the honourable member fo r that question because I do not want there to be any confusion about the ann ouncements that have been made and the initiatives proposed. Honourable members know that there are some people who have been misled into thinking that there would be changes like user fee s and changes like cuts in servic es.

This is the reason that I wrote to home care clien ts. And I will do it again, Madam Speaker, and again and again if it is necessary, to counter the mis inf ormation that is put out by honourab le members opposite and some of their friends in the union movement. In rural Manitoba the rural health associations will in deed be responsible fo r the delivery of the whole range ofhealth services, includi ng home care, in the future . So I am not able to say that fore ver and ever there will be no changes because I do not know what approach the rural health associa tions will take.

No doubt those ass ociations will be watching the perf orman ce of the home care system here in the city of Winni peg. If they find that it meets the expectations we expect that it will, they may indeed move in that direction. But that is fo r them to decide and not me. As long as standards are maintained at levels that are satisfitctory to the government of Manitoba, the regional health asso ciations will be in charge of the delivery of servi ces. Ms.

Wowchuk: Why then did the minister send a letter directly to its workers say ing there is going to be no change when he is saying right now that it is open to chan ge? What kind of image are you trying to create in rural Manitoba, sayi ng that there is not going to be a change? Ma dam Speaker: Order, please. I would remind all honourable members that questions are to be a single question, not mul tiple-part questions , and they are to contain one carefully drafted sentenc e. Mr. McCrae: I hope the honourable member is not attempting to split hairs here.

What I am talking about with respect to changes with the clients of our home care system is to counter the allega tions, untruthful, malicious and mischievous allegations made by certain people in our province with respect to user fee s which we are not bringing in with this initiative, with respect to cuts in services which are not part of this initiati ve. Indeed, the only place that there are no user fee s in this whole country are Quebec and Manitob a. *

(1430) Ms. Wowchuk: I would like to ask the minister if he can tell this House whether the regional health authorities will have the opportunity to continue to offer not-f or-profit home care service, as is in place right now, or whether they will have to contract out services as is being proposed here in Winnipeg. What are the options fo r people of rural Manitoba? Mr. McCrae: I have answered that question already. The regional health authorities will be responsible for the delivery ofhome care services in the regio ns. It is their decision as to how it is done .

The point is that certain levels of service and standards have to be reached or else there will be problems fo r those associatio ns. Home Care Program Privatization-Rural Manitoba Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples) : Madam Speaker, this government, and its contingency plan fo r a possible home care wotker strike, has instructed the local hospital in Winkler to make 10 acute care beds avail able. Yet, in this area, of the 165 home care patients, 65 are heavy­ need patien ts. Will the Minister of Health tell the House what will happen to the 55 heavy-care patients who will not be able to get into Winkler hospital?

660 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April II , 1996 Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I certainly do not wish to see people left without services because their care providers make a decision to withdraw services. Let us say that I feel very strongly about that. I hope the honourable member does too and does everything that he can, and maybe persuade our friends in the New Democratic Party, to work with their friends in the union movement to ensur e that people do not withdraw services from their patients. But a responsible governm ent has to be prepared for such eventu alities.

Just in case the New Democrats decide that they do not want to put the patients first, we are going to have to have a contingency plan. and we do. Labour Dispute Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): Will the minister be providing addition al funding to the hospitals to compensate for extra d eman ds made upon them, even if he has to use lottery revenues to make up for the shortfall in funding? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health) : With due respect to the honourable member, it is not my intention to discuss all of the aspects of the contingency plan beca use, Madam Speaker, I hope we do not need one, :frankly.

But, we have clients who need services and we are not going to turn our backs on them. Mr. Kowalski : Have the extra demands that will be placed on the Manitoba hospitals in the event of a spring flooding been taken into account in the contingency plans for the home care strike? Mr. McCrae: Well, the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Dri edger) has warn ed us that that is a potential and a pos sibility and a probability in a lot of areas, so obviously it is something that you have to have a contingency for. Independent Schools Funding Formula Ms.

Jean Friesen (Wolseley) : Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education. In 1990 when the Filmon governm ent made its agreement with private sch ools to increase the funding to 80 percent of the provincial public school grant, the private schools naturally anticipated considerably increased funding, but by 1996 it was clear that the governm ent was intent on systematic reductions of public school grants ; consequently, the funding for private schools would also be less.

Could the minister confirm that private schools requested a new funding formula based on the total cost of edu cating a child in the public system, a formula which holds out for them now the prospect of increases? Bon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, the member, of course, presumes that funding for education continues to go down. She presumes that the expenditure per pupil will continue to rise.

I tell her that boards across this province are working hard to contain the expenditure cost per pupil to reduce it if they can and that her assum ptions that funding decreases will continue if we can get to our debt concern and if we can get to our federal counterparts are both err oneous assumption s. I can indicate to the member that the funding for independent schools will rise in a few years to 50 percent of the cost per pupil of educating a child in Manitoba, which equates in dollar terms to the same amount as the earlier descriptive of 80 percent of the funding.

Six of one, half a dozen of another, whether it is an advantage or a disadvantage. Ms. Friesen: Madam Speaker, did the minister tell school trustees across Manitoba, as they faced a $15 - million provincial cut, that when they voted yes this year to tax in creases , as some of them did, they were automatically voting yes to a proportionate increase to private schools? Mn.

Mcintosh: Madam Speaker, having been a trustee , I could indicate that when trustees are voting for tax incr eases , they do so based upon all the things in front of them that aff ect them, and they work very hard to make sure that they do not have tax increases. In every instance, trustees work for that. Madam Speaker, as I indicated before, the member 's assumptions that education funding will continue to decrease and that per-pu pil cost will continue to increase are assumptions and speculation. In terms of whether it is based on cost or on funding, there are advantages and dis advantages either way.

I am saying to her that funding equates in dollar terms to the same.

April1 1, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 661 Ms. Friesen: Madam Speaker, could the minister tell us why she continues to refuse to place that agreement on the table? Let us look at the numbers . Let us look at the figures- Madam Speaker: Order, plea se. Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Speaker, the question has been asked many times and answered many times . You know, we could just rehearse this and rehearse this until we are fmally ready to put on our show, but I think we have been through the subject over and over again, and I do not think there is- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. *

(1440) Social Assistance Food/Clothing Allowance Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, last year when we asked questions about families on social allowance having to use their food budget to pay the ir rent, this governm ent said that those are choices that people have to make. It seems that with the budget, the government is now making that choice for people by cutting some $10 million from social allowance entirely from the food and clothing allowance for recipients who are tenants.

I want to ask the Minister of Family Services to explain and justifY taking the entire budget cut to the poorest families in Manitoba entirely from the food and clothing all owance, while guarantee ing some $50 million from provincial tax revenue to the landlords in Manitoba. Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, I thank my honourable friend for that question because it does allow me again the opportunity to reannounce what we announced with our welfare reform package.

Within the Department of Family Ser vices, the issues that we deal with and the people whom we deal with are some of the very most needy right across the province, people with mental disabilities that we have responsibility for support for. Those children who are a part of our child welfare system, we have to provide support for. We provide support for women who have been abused, women and their children who need refuge and some security in their lives. We provide support for daycare servic es, child care services throughout the province and also support for those who are not working and are on welf are.

Madam Speaker, we mana ged to maintain with this year's budget the support and the levels for those with disabilities, for senior s, for those single parents with young children, and for women and children who need the support of our shelters and abuse system. We have maintained the support where we fe el it is most needed, and the most vulnerab le have been protected. Ms.

Cerilli: Madam Speaker, I want to ask the Minister of Family Serv ices or the minister responsible for residential tenancies or perhaps the Minister responsible for Housing to table one study or analysis to justifY ensuring that landlords keep $50 million and that tenants on social allowance are going to have to lose 21 percent of their food and clothing allowance- Madam Speaker: Order, please. The que stion has been put . Mrs.

Mitchelson: Madam Speaker, again, I thank my honomable friend for that question because it does allow me the opportunity to repeat that we believe, as a governm ent, that the best form of social security is a job. The focus we are placing on our support is to look at employment first and provide the opportunities through new pro jects and new programs to try to help people train and enter the workforce . As we have said be fore, we do not want for the women and children in the province of Manitoba a lifetime of poverty on welf are.

We want more from our system than a dependency on welfare as their only means of support. We are working very diligently to try to help those who are on social assistance become independent and build their se lf­ esteem and provide support for their children through meaningful jobs. Ms. Cerill i: Madam Speaker, with $98 million of taxpayers' dollars going from the city and the provincial governm ents to landlords for often substantial housing for people on social allowance, I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services, who is on welfare, landlords or unemployed families? Mrs.

Mitchelson: Madam Speaker, I thank my honomable friend for that question because it does allow

662 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April ll , 1996 me again to look at where we have placed the priorities in the Department of Family Services , and our priorities are on those and providing support to those most in need. We have mana ged to maintain the support and our social allowance rates for those with young children, for those women who are in abuse shelters and for their children, for the elderly and for those with disabi lities .

We are, in many instances, putting in place support programs for those who are considered employable to help them find the opportmrities and the job opportunities that will help them become independent and self -sufficient. We believe that the best form of social security is a job, and we are working towards that end with the decisions that we have made and the changes that we have made through welf are reform. Goods and Services Tax Harmonization Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): 1 have a question for the Minister of Finance.

Recent newspaper reports have stated that the Prime Minister and the federal Finance minister have been holding secret negotiations with provincial Premiers to gain support for harmonization of the GST with the PST. Atlantic provincial governm ents are now actively considering hmmonizing based on a promise of transitional financial assistance. My question to the minister-[interjection] If honourable members would give me a chance, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Leo nard Evans: My questioo to the minister : Has the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) or himself, the Minister of Finance, met with the Prime Minister or the federal Minis ter of Finance to discuss the possibility of harmoni zation of the GST with the PST? Ron. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): I am not aware of any meetings on this issue with the Prime Minister. I have had meetings with the federal Minister of Finance on this issue amongst many others over the course of the last couple of mon ths. I am certainly prepared to, in more detail, provide our position on the issue. We have had a series of concerns about harmonization that we discussed in this House on many occas ions.

One of them is the loss of revenue to our provincial Treas ury. Another one is the shift from businesses to consume rs. Another one is the broadening of the base to a whole range of items that the provincial sales tax currently does not apply to: books, children 's clothing, and so on. The federal governm ent has offered some transitional fimding as it relates to the loss of revenue for provincial governments, but that ooly addresses one of the concerns . So far those other concerns remain outstand ing. As a result of that, we are not anywhere near any agreement on harmonization. Mr.

Leonard Evans: I thank the minister for that answer. This is a follow-up to that, Madam Speaker. Can the Minister of Finance assure Manitobans that they will not be enticed in any way by some type of short-term financial incentive by the federal governm ent to harmonize our PST with the GST to help the Liberal government off the hook on their election promi ses regarding the GST? Mr. Stefa nson: As I responded to in the first part, the issue of loss of revenue to our Treasury is one of the concerns, and the federal governm ent has put forward some offers in terms of transitional funding.

But that is only one of the concerns , and even if that gap could be bridged, there are still these other concerns which have not been addressed, as I said in the previous answ er. They have not been addressed to our satisfaction, and obviously there is no benefit to Manitobans to be harmo nizing with the GST. Elimination Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I thank the minister for that answer.

Would the minister be prepared to advocate with the federal government a new, fairer tax, namely a financial transaction tax on stocks and bonds , which could be as little as one-tenth of 1 percent on such transactions and yet raise enough money to abolish the GST in Canada entirely? Ron. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): If the member for Brandon East has any details on his proposed tax increase I would welcome asses sing them and looking at them, but-

April ll , 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 663 An Honourable Member: He is very experienced in that area. Madam Speaker: Order, please. I know this has been a long afternoon, but I certainly would appreciate the co­ operation of all honowable members in showing courtesy to each other, whether the opposition is posing a question or the governm ent is respon ding. The honowable Minister of Finance, to quickly complete his respo nse. Mr.

Stefanson: Just concluding, Madam Speaker, we certainly recognize the expertise the ND P bring to tax increases, but Manitobans have told us consistently they feel they pay enough taxes to all levels of governm ent-federal, provincial, mu nicipal, school boards and so on. If he has some particulars he would like to share with me, I would be more than pleased to look at them. * (1450 ) Manitoba Hydro Employment Reductions Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St.

James): Madam Speaker, this past February the Dominion Bond Rating Service, which I have a copy of here and I am sure that the minister does, stated that, and I quote: Manitoba Hydro, with its low variables, semi variable costs, helped by high hydro generation, is probably in the best competitive position of any of the Canadian electrical utilities, and it should be able to compete in any market east, west or south. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order. The honourable member fo r St. James, to complete her question . Ms.

Mihychuk: Madam Speaker, I would ask that side of the House all ow us the opportunity to ask que stions, which is our right. Madam Speaker: Just ask them. Ms. Mihychuk: Yest erday, in Question Period, the mini ster admitted that Manitoba Hydro, which has already cut 500 jobs and taken Filmon Fridays, is being restructured but declined to give any details. Can the minister now tell the House how many more jobs are going to be cut at a time when Hydro has record profits and contracts through Limestone that go to the year 2006? Bon.

Darren Praznik (Minister charged with administration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): It is a very opportune moment that the member for St. James asked me this question because I happened to be going through a press release that she issued some time ago on the issue of map staki ng, where she indicated that the province was about to get into map staking with no public discussions or consultati ons, in her press release. The reality was absolutely opposite, and the member for St. James brings information and innuendo continually to public debate that is not true at all. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for St. James, for one very short question. Privatization Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, I think the minister is confused. I am not talking about map staking, I am talking about Hydro. Madam Speaker, can the minister, in all seriou sn ess, assure this House and Manitobans that he or the Premier 's Office will not privatize any unit of Hydro or any service that Manitoba Hydro provides? Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister responsible for Hydro, for a very short response. Bon.

Darren Praznik (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): Madam Speaker, I certainly was aware the member was talking about Hydro. What I was talking about is the mem ber's accuracy in bringing forward inform ation. Let me just say to the honowable member, and she had a briefing this morning with Manitoba Hydro, that Manitoba Hydro is undergoing an internal reorganization which is designed to ensure that it continues to be one of the most competitive utilities in North Americ a. Madam Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired.

664 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Aprilll, 1996 MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Easter Service-Legisla tive Building Mr. Mike Radcl iff e (River Heights): Madam Speaker, I rise this afternoon to advise this Chamber that I had the pleasme of attending an Easter hymn service at 5:30 a.m. Easter Sunday morning, on the grand staircase in this building, accompanied by 1,0 00 citizens from Manitoba.

We were treated to a magnificent array of hymns sung by members of the Manitoba Choral Association, directed by no less than Bramwell Tovey, William Baerg, Hemy Engbrecht and Mel Braun, accompanied by the Winnipeg Symphony Brass and organist Lawrence Ritchley. The event was broadcast, Madam Speaker, on CBC-FM from coast to coast in Canada. The program was hosted by the learned Dr. Murdith McLean, warden of St. John's College, and the renowned Howard Dyck.

It was a delight to hear the combined voices of Manitobans singing out the glory and praise of the Easter festival, and we owe a sincere debt of thanks to the hardworking volunteers, one of whom is my constituent Patricia Rabson of River Heights and also the many technicians of CBC who made this occas ion possible. I am proud that this program was carried coast to coast from the heart of our country, our wonderful Manitoba. Thank you. Social Assi stance-Policy Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Dumb policy ideas which discourage individual initiatives.

Number one, would it make sense if you were on social assistance to want to increase your income by working? Would it make sense to take in a boarder? Not in Manitoba. One of my constituents who is on social assistance wanted to take in a boarder to increase her income. She was told that if she did she would be cut off social assistance. Whatever happened to encouraging individual initiative and independence? What happened to common sense? Under the existing work incentive program people on social assistance are allowed to work and keep a percentage of their earnings. The amounts are meagre.

Until recently, it was $50 per month. Everything over that amount is deducted from the welfare cheque dollar for dollar. In eff ect, the poor are the only people in Manitoba who are taxed back at the rate of 1 00 percent. This, too, discourages lnltlatlve and independenc e, something about which the Minister of Family Services (Mrs . Mitchelson) is constantly talking. If the minister was serious about encouraging initiative and independence she would get rid of this dumb policy which prohibits my constituent from taking a boarder in order to supplement her income. Stay tuned, Madam Speaker.

This is only the first in a series of dumb policies, policies which need to be changed. Victoria General Hospital 25th Anniversary Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St. Norbert): Madam Speaker, I would like to say a few words this afternoon in recognition of the Victoria General Hospital's 25th anniversaJY of its present location on Pembina Highway. Since 1971 the Victoria General Hospital has been an important part of the conununity in south Winnipeg.

The commitment to excellence shown by the administration and staff at the Vic makes our hospital a model for the health care standards all Manitobans have come to expect Throughout its history the Vic has worked hard to focus on the changing needs of the community. This hospital has anticipated and adapted to change, rather than merely reacting to it, while maintaining quality patient care as their firs t priority. The honourable member for Fort Garry (Mrs . Vodre

y) joins me in congratulating the CEO at the Victoria General Hospital, Marion Suski, the board of directo rs, the dedicated staff and the volunteers who have made the Victoria General Hospital what it is today. They will continue to work to ensme the high quality of health care for the futu re.

Madam Speaker, as our province continues its reforms to the health care system, the Victoria Hospital continues to work in a proactive mann er with the community, its patients and our governm ent to ensure that the Vic moves strategically to worlc within the health care system to better reflect the changing needs of our community. Thank you. Fine Increases-Winnipeg Police Services Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): I rise to talk about a government news release today about fine increases. I

April 11 , 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 665 have mixed fee lings about these increases in fines because, having been a traffic officer with the Winnipeg Police Services, I had most of these fines memorized and now if I ever go back to police work I will have to memorize them again. [interjection] That is right. What I want to share with the government is my knowledge from my years of experience on the police fo rce that to be a deterr ent not only does there need to be a strict punishment or a fine, but there has to be a good chance of being caught.

One of the biggest impacts on saf ety on our highways would be photo radar . It would have a far greater impact than an incr ease in fines, which is nothing more than a grab fo r money by this governm ent. If they were really interested in safety on Manitoba highways, they would do what they have done in B.C. on March 1, introducing photo radar, and within one month the number of speeders has decreased dramatically which has increased the saf ety on B.C. highways. I would encourage this governm ent or the Minister of Justice (Mrs . Vodrey) , the Minister of Highways (Mr.

Findlay) and the Minister in charge of MPIC (Mr. Cummings) to get together and do something that does more than generate money fo r this government but will make our highways saf er. * (150 0) Female Poverty Ms. Diane McGiff ord (Osborne): Madam Speaker, I wish to speak today about the institutionalization of fe male poverty in Manitoba. Today, as

Chapter 1, the story will continue . First we get the theory: the so-called balanced budget legislation, which because of its limited perspective, dictates that the budget will be balanced by cutting programs, implementing user fe es and implementing hidden tax incre ases. After the theory comes the practi ce: a series of cuts announced prior to the April 2 budget to health, education and health care, and then we get the budget itself in its full-blown draconian glory.

Clearly, women who are fo rced to access social services at a much greater rate than their male counterparts will suff er disproportionate hardship . Sixty percent of single parent fa milies live below the poverty line and 85 percent of these fa milies are headed by women. Many are dependent on social assistance. Some 75 percent of social assistance recipients are women. This means an income of 50 percent to 60 percent below the poverty line, and take off an extra 10 fo r the curr ent cuts.

Those women who are single parents and have children over six will automatically be considered ripe and ready fo r the workf orce or fo r traini ng, though some have special circumsta nces, like one of my constituents with two children over six, both of whom are severely asthmatic. Jobs are as scarce as hen's teeth, while training programs are numerically inadequate and often inaccessible. The net result is a vicious cycle of poverty with many entrances and only carefully concealed exits. In this way Manitoba's women are kept poor, ill­ educated, unhealthy, ill-housed and badly fe d.

ORDERS OF THE DAY BUDGET DEBATE (Sixth Day of Debate) Madam Speaker: To resume debate, on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Stef anson), and on the proposed motion of the honourable Leader of the official opposition (Mr. Doer) in amendment thereto, and on the proposed motion of the honourable member fo r Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) in further amendment thereto. Mr. Mervin Tweed (furtle Mountain): It certainly is a pleasure to rise today and respond to the budget presented earlier in this session, and I would like to begin by welcoming back to the House yourself, Madam Speaker.

I know it is a difficult job and seeing it petf ormed day in and day out I have grown to appreciate your judgments and look fo rward to dealing with in the future. To the Cler k's Offi ce and staff , honourab le members and to the Pages, welcome. It is a great honour to rise in the House as an elected official and I use the words "great honour" to emphasize the privi lege I fe el to represent the people of Turtle Mountain that I represent as a constituency and also the people of the province of Manitoba.

I have learned in the short term that I have been here that it is a great responsibility that the people have put

666 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 11 ' 1996 on myself and on everyone that serves as an elected member and also as a member of government which has to make decisions that will direct and hopefully lead the province into the next century. As a member of the Legislative Assembly, we were elected by people who nine years ago wanted change. I think that the whole emphasis of the budgets that we have brought f orward since that time and the budgets that we have seen this time are dealing with the changes that are going on around us.

It is also an honour and, again, as a representative of those people I fee l a need and a must that I ensur e that their needs are met. Again I would emphasize, that is what I fee l the recent budget was all about. I would like to take a few minutes to addre ss what the government has accomplished with this budget. First and fore most I believe this budget demonstrates our governm ent's commitment to handling the public purse with respect and with respons ibility.

I can certainly see that it is easy to solve everyday problems and everyone's problems with more money, but I can also see from experience and from being here that the money and the availability of money is no longer there. The people of Manitoba have asked us to operate within a restricted limit, and that limit is the budget that we are dealing with. I would also like to suggest that it would be easy to govern with the ideas that come fo rward from across the floor, but I do belie ve that that method demonstrates a lack of vision.

Instead, what the Filmon government has achieved after nine years without major tax increases is an environment that welcomes, establishes, develops and promotes growth in all sectors of Manitoba. Certainly each and every member has the right to critique a budget when it is tabled. I have sat here and list ened in the last fe w days to members on both sides making their presentations. I would like to suggest that there is one thing that has disturbed me and has disturbed me deeply . I would like to note that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Doer) did not respond so much to the budget as he did launch a personal attack on the Premier (Mr. Filmon) of Manitoba and the ministers of the government of Manitoba. I fee l that that is a large disservice to those people who are serving the general population and the people ofManitoba and by what I see has been put f orward in a very fa ithful and very generous way. I would like to suggest that the personal attack put fo rward by the Leader of the Opposition, and I would like to ask him one question. That question would be, is this constructive?

Is this helping to resolve the many difficult challenges facing the people of Manitoba or is it merely an opportunity fo r the member fo r Concordia (Mr. Doer) to reaffirm his own leadership abilities to a group of people that seem to be wandering aimlessly? The debate on the budget has moved back and fo rth from one member to the next across the floor from good budget to bad budget. At this time I would like to put my commen ts on the recad. I took the opportunity to get a definition of the word "budget" from the Webster Canadian Dictionary.

It reads, budget, a listing or plan that shows how much money is available and how it is to be divided up and spent fo r various purposes. In my opinion, the budget does exactly that. We have presented to the public, the people of Manitoba, a document that shows how much is available-that is called reven ue-and which also explains how this money is to be divided up by various governm ental departments. That is called expense.

In this budget, we have also shown the people of Manitoba that we are the most effi ciently run government in Canada, and fo r that, again, I offer my congratulations to the ministers in cabinet and to the Premier (Mr. Filmon) of Manitoba, for showing leadership not only fo r Manitobans but fo r all Canadians. The areas that are most important, I believe, and the people of Manitoba have told us this, are the same. We have shown that the governm ent of Manitoba cares about health care.

In fa ct, we have shown we care more than any other province in Canada by allocating 33.8 percent of our entire budget to this department. This is more than any other provincial governmen t of any other political stripe in Canada, and, again, I think that shows well fo r the leaders of the province of Manitoba. I would also hasten to add, Madam Speaker, that this is more than the members opposite have ever directed at health. We have shown the people of Manitoba that we care about education. We have allocated 18.7 percent of our budget, again more than the members opposite ever budgeted, fo r education.

We have shown the people of Manitoba that we care about social service s. We have set aside 12 .2 percent of our budget fo r this essential component of our society, and I would challenge the

April ll , 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 667 members opposite to compare that figure with any of their previous budgets. Madam Speaker, these three departments clearly represent the governm ent of Manitoba's, my colleag ues' commitment to the people of Manitoba. This budget, Madam Speaker, also sends a very clear message to rural Manitobans. As the MLA fo r Turtle Mountain, I had the privilege of servin g as a co-chair on the Working for Value Rural Task Force, which took seven weeks to travel throughout rural Manitoba this past February and March.

From this tour, I becam e very aware of what rural Manitobans were telling this government. They were saying to us that this governm ent listens. They were saying that this government had a vision. * (1 510 ) From February 5 to March 21, the panel, consisting of my colleagues Mr. Jack Penner and Mr. Fr anklin Pitura, travelled throughout rural Manitoba. I must admit, Madam Speaker, it was a very new experience to me to travel to many communities that I have not been into bef ore and to meet the friendly, vibrant people that live in those communities.

We were there to listen to those people who are shaping the future of Manitoba's economy and also 1he structure of the future of Manitoba in the years to come . We were very happy, and they were very happy to hear from us, that the progress and the future of Manitoba did not lie in future tax increases which would only hinder their eff orts fo r success. We were there to hear what they wanted in terms of deregulation, what they wanted in terms of assistance, be it in a direction or in accessing assistance through governm ent agencies.

We wanted to hear what they were looking fo r and presenting in terms of ideas to diversify their businesses and economies, and, quite frankl y, I was overwhelmed by the attitude that we met. The individuals that we came in contact with were thrill ed to have the opportunity to meet with others, to share new ideas, to debate current and existing re gulations and things that are put into place by government from time to time but most of all they were there to speculate on what the future would look like . What will the future of Manitoba look like in rural Manitoba and how can it benefit all Manitobans?

We were also there, Madam Speaker, particularly to listen to the success and the success stories that people in rural Manitoba have put fo rward in diversifying their busines ses to prepare fo r the next generation of living in rural Manitoba. The message we send to rural Manitobans with this budget is our commitment to sustaining growth in rural Manitoba and the rural economy. Recent announcem ents which have been received with open arms were the establishment of an irr igation initiative, and we have provided easier access to capital through finan cing programs such a5 those off ered by MACC.

These initiatives will encourage diversification into livestock, into value-added products, value-added processes which are being highly praised throughout Canada. We have enhan ced crop insurance, which will allow producers access to aff ordable, quality crop insurance, and I will add that this enhanced program is the first of its kind in Canada. We have successfully launched a $1 2.5-million Community Works Loan Program. During the tour that was one of the strongest messages that came fo rward from rural Manitobans: Give us the ability to move fo rward on our own in our own communities with our own ideas .

I believe we have answered that question. I would suggest Rural Development's Grow Bonds Program, which has leveraged additional investment of more than $21 million in rural Mani toba, has been a very successful program, and I see only bigger and better things on the horizon for this pro gram . The Rural Economic Development Initiative, Madam Speaker, has generated more than $17 0 million of investm ent This is investment that perhaps would have come over time but is here today helping not only rural Manitobans but all Manitobans.

The government has developed the rural youth pro grams where over 3,000 jobs were created fo r rural youth since 1992, and I believe this has also benefited many people in the province of Manitoba. We have offered provincial, municipal tax-sharin g payments increased by 6 percent, bringing the total to over $23 million.

Finally, Madam Speaker, the government of Manitoba has announced an overall increase of 10 percent fo r rural economic development, meanin g that this year we will be contributing over $19 million to ensure that growth continues not only for the people of Turtle Mountain but for the people of Manitoba 1bese are the directions that this government

668 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 11 , 1996 is taking which affect my constituents directly and, I might, add the directne ss outlined in this budget which benefits all Manitob ans. Madam Speaker, I want to address the topics that I believe and we hear every day are first and fo remost on peopl e's minds . I believe it is easy fo r the opposition to stand and rise every day and question the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) about health policies and health procedures in the province of Manitob a.

I would like to suggest to them that we all have individual instances in cases that we can bring fo rward not only to the government but to the people of Mani toba, where we have people that are suff ering and suff ering greatly. I would challenge anybody on the other side that would question any of our ministers or our members on this side of the House as to their sincerity in regards to the current health care situation.

I think that we are all respected people that sit in this House and that there is none of us that would come fo rward with a plan devised to hurt the people most in need in the province of Manitoba. This governm ent is setting the standard that others must fo llow in health. We are spending more than any other province, and our budget sets aside more than the members opposite ever did. I sometimes find it a little bit Wlusual and a little bit hard to sit here day in and day out and be lectured by an opposition that has never met the commitment that this government has to the people in health care.

I fully agree with this government that says to the people of Manitoba, wherever possible, if you can pay fo r this and the money that we can save can help the people that are really in need of the programs out there, then that is the direction that we should go, Madam Speaker. I do not believe that I, as a personal statement, would want the governm ent to pick up eye care for me when I can personally aff ord it. When there is someone that cannot, that should be provided fo r them.

I would suggest, Madam Speaker, that in the privatization of home care, I have had several calls from rural Manitoba with great concerns . These con cerns are not as directly related as to what the opposition would be, but their con cerns are dealing with: We know we need good health care; we know we need good home care; let us do the best job we can afford to do. I believe the province is off ering that in this budget .

I believe they are off ering leadership and examples and methods in which we can provide the best possible care within the constraints , and I say constrain ts, but I also emphasize the fact of the largesse of our health budget as compared to other provinces in Canada . In education, again, Madam Speaker, by way of introduction, this budget allocates more towards education than any budget brought fo rward by the members opposite in the '80s. We are preparing our children for the technological challenges of tomorrow, and we are doing it today.

I would like to refer to the two youths, young people that helped us on this task fo rce. Day in and day out I hear of the doom and gloom on the other side of the House, and I was expecting to find ill-prepared, unwanting-to-work young people coming fo rward on this task fo rce. I fo und that to be exactly the opposite. These people were prepared, they were well educated and they were willing to work. They were very willing to work.

There was seldom a day went by that these people did not put in the extra time and eff ort, recognizing that we too were on a limited budget and that everyone had to pull together to make it succeed. I would like to commend them here and today. We are also meeting the challenges in education by allocating over $1 billion in total of our budget to the futme Manitobans of this province, the future taxpayers, the future wage earners, the future leaders of this province. We are suggesting that more parental involvement take place in the direction and the fo rmation of our educatioo. for our children.

Who better to ask than the parents of the children what they need to prepare them for the future? I feel we have done that, are doing that and will continue to do that over the next several years . * (152 0) I would like to suggest, Madam Speaker, we have added $1.7 million for education renewal, bringing the total to $5.4 million. We have introduced a new $1 2- million learning tax credit, making us the first province in Canada to provide a refundable learning tax credit.

As the parent of a graduating university student, I can tell you, and I regret to say, that it is probably fo ur or five years too late fo r me, but it will provide for those young people that are going to school. It will give them an extra source of revenue when they are doing up their

April ll , 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 669 taxes at the end of the year. I think it has been long overdue, and I commend the governm ent fo r moving fo rward with this initiative . In education, I would suggest that the bottom line, and I use bottom line in several connotations here, has to be what our children learn, and that is what this government is committed to. In rural development, I have commented on this earlier, but I still want to single out a fe w of the highlights again. I believe that the overall incr ease of 1 0 percent fo r rural development is of benefit to all Manitob ans.

Rural Manitoba, over the next 10 to 15 years, I would suggest to all members, will be the economic driving fo rce in the province of Manitob a. We have seen several new announcements and new initi atives brought fo rward, and I would suspect that with the environment that we have created fo r the new businesses and the businesses looking to expand, Manitoba will become very, very promising in their eyes. The provincial municipal tax-sharing payments increased by 6 percent to a total of over $23 million.

Again, we are quite often accused of suggesting that governm ents are passing the buck, passing it on to the next group of people. I think this clearly demonstrates our commitment to the province and to the people of rural Manitoba. I think the successful launching of a Community Works Loan Program, which I mentioned earlier, in our travels on the task fo rce, it was brought to our attention again that these are what the people in rural Manitoba wanted. They wanted to have a say and input into the decision making that aff ects their livelihoods and the communitie s with which they live.

I do not think we could ever discuss a budget without bringing fo rward many of the economic growth indicators that we use from time to time to not only justify the direction that we are moving but also to put the :fucts on the table as to what is actually happening out there and not what is perceived. I would suggest, and the figures will confirm it, that Manitoba experienced retail sales growth at double the national rate. I would say that speaks very well fo r the economy. Our population growth in Manitoba is at a nine-year high.

Manito ba's world exports continue to boom with strong incr eases in the fo reign market. In 1995, our export sales to the U.S. grew at the second highest rate in Canada. When you look at where Manitob a fits into the map and into the population base in the country, I would suggest to you, that is a very good compliment to the mana gement of the province of Manito ba. Manitoba experienced the largest percentage increase in total investment in Canada, and, again, I would suggest that a lot of that investment is happening in rural Manitoba where the attitude is we are open fo r business and ready to move on.

Manitoba reached an all-time high in manuf acturing investment and the largest incr ease in manuf acturing shipments in 20 years. Manitoba experienced three consecutive double-digit incr eases in farm cash receipts. I would like to congratulate at this time the government fo r those successes. I think that it is the strong mana gement that they have put fo rward that have been able to help these things occur. Finally, when I made my opening comments, I suggested to the members of the House and particularly, I guess, to the members opposite that we are definitely in a period of change.

I think regardless of whether we walk around with blinders or blindf olds on there is still change that will and must occur, and we must position ourselves to be in the best possible position to deal with and perhaps make change occur in the best possible way. I can remember in my own personal experiences the debates in rural Manitoba as a very, very young boy when Hydro was coming into southwe st Manitob a. It seemed that it was something that everyone thought was a passing fad. I can remember radios being made in our basemen t with crystals.

Unf ortunately, these things were happening far fa ster in the metropolitan areas, but they were still happening and we still had to make the necessary chang es. I can remember reading about the debate of the floodway and what it would or could or might or might not do fo r the province of Manitoba. Another change that brought fo rward and brought people in Manitoba to the table, not to necessarily agree on all the issues but at least to debate and come to a conse nsus .

I remember, Madam Speaker, McDonald 's opening up their first restaurant and selling hamburgers fo r 1 0 cents and man y of the people in rural Manitoba saying, I cannot believe 10 cents fo r a hamburger. There must no

670 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 11 ' 1996 beef in it. Where is the beef fo r 1 0 cents? But they did it and they changed and they continued to cha nge. Actually it was not at high school, it was at university where we were introduced to computers. Now my son, who is 1 0 years old, is being introduced to computers, and I think that is a remarkable thing fo r children to have that opportunity. I still am illiterate on the computer, but I am learning with his help. It is something that he is giving me the instruction as to how to make it work better and beneficial to me.

Madam Speaker, I bring these examples fo rward because I would like to suggest to you that change has occwred, will occur and will continue . If we do not open our eyes and see the future or at least vision the future, then we cannot prepare for the future. Change will occur and must occur. In closing, Madam Speaker, I would just like to quote a small paraphrase from a song that was written, again, years ago but it is something that I am sure that the members opposite and all members except fo r the youngest of people will probably remember.

I would ask that all members consider this whenever they are making decisions or whenever they are making decisions to jump up and challenge the people in governm ent as to their means and methods and motives when they are making decisions on behalf of the Province of Manito ba. I think we can all learn from it. I think that it is something that will benefit us all in the future . The phrase goes like this, when we are talking about change, it suggests, it says, come senators , congressmen, please heed the call, don't stand in the doorway and do n't block up the hall.

The times they are a chan ging and we must adjust to the times and to the changes. In closing, Madam Speaker, I would like to congratulate the governm ent of Manitoba on presenting this budget fo r all Manito bans. I would like to congratulate my colleagues in the ministers positions and to the Premier of Manit oba. I believe that Manitoba is moving fo rward and will continue to move fo rward, and I look fo rward to the prosperous years ahead of serving the people of Manit oba. Thank you. * (1 530) Mr.

Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I take this opportunity to join with others to debate this very important 1996 financial docum ent that we have bef ore us the past fe w days and the next few days to come. I have been in this House fo r a number of years. I have had the privilege of being with the Schreyer government as well as the Pawley government, and I must say, the impression I have of this budget is that it is a continuation of tearing down, of undermining the basic health and social programs that we put in place back in the '70s with the Schreyer governm ent, and it carried on with the Pawley governm ent.

I remember we brought in Pharmacare in 1973, $50 deductible, and we paid 80 percent of the balance. We established a very strong home care system, the very best in North America. Hospital expansions occurr ed. We put the nursing homes under the medicare system. They did not used to be bef ore 1973. We established a rural dental program fo r children. This governm ent, Madam Speaker, has abolished the nual dental program fo r children, which is a real shame. Even Sterling Lyon would not go that far.

Nursing home rates have gooe up to the moon, and they are so high that people can apply fo r supplementary welfare and get welfare while being in nursing homes because the rates have gone up so high. This is a ridiculous situation. I have had this inf ormation. I have talked to my own constituen ts. I have seniors living in nursing homes in Brandon who get supplementary welfare because the Department of Health has taken too much of their pension away by way of nursing home fee s. That is an absolutely scandalous situation.

I say, Madam Speaker, generally we have had an undermining, a tearing down, a deterioration of the health and social programs that we put in place beginning back in the 1970s. But I want to make it clear, this Budget Debate is not about whether or not a balanced budget is a good thing or a surplus is a good thing or a deficit is a bad thing. Everybody realizes we have to pay our way, and so we are not debating the merits of financing. The Budget Debate is essentially about philosophy, about political ideology, about priorities, social priorities, but I think back to our years with the Schreyer governm ent.

We brought in many new programs, and if you look at the figures, Madam Speaker, by the end of our eight years in office, Manitoban s' relative debt position had not deteriorated. In fact, I think it actually improved a bit, that is, if you measure our debt in terms of the amount of

April 11 , 1996 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 671 interest you pay on the debt as a percentage of spending. That did not really increase at all. It did increase a bit under the Lyon years, but it did not increase. So our relative debt position did not deteriorate under the Schreyer governmen t in spite of all the new pro� that we established, as I mentioned, Pharmacare, nursmg homes under the medicare system, et cetera.

The Pawley governm ent, we lived in a time of some very serious recessions, and we made a deliberate decision to attack unemployment in Manitoba through the Manitoba Jobs Fund and deliberately increased the deficit, deliberately to provide jobs for Manitobans, including some ve� major assets that were put in place that we are still benefiting from today. Also, we were affected by a very high interest rate regime at that time.

Nevertheless, toward the end of our term in office, we were moving out of the heavier expenditures and moving into a surplus position, and I would remind members also that the Saskatchewan New Democratic Party government has had a history of balanced budgets. or surplus budge ts. It was the Devine Cons�atr�re government that came along and put that provmce m deep, deep debt. I believe the Romanow governm �t now is working on a balanced budget. They are working to the best of their ability to cope with the burdens that they have been left with.

So do not come to this House or speak to the people of Manitoba about the merits of surpluses or balances. The fact is we realize we have to pay our way, but it is how we get the money and how we spend the money that is critical and what importance we put on health care, what importance we put on public education, for example, what importance we put on helping the poor among us. I think this budget contains a lot of fairy tales, a lot of myths. One is that we have the longest running tax freeze in Canada for the ninth consec utive year. We have heard this time and time again, but I just take one example.

Look at the 1992-93 budget. We had a property tax credit of$75 eliminated. We broadened the sales tax to even include Big Macs, and the equivalent tax increases in that budget totalled $11 4 million. It is in the budget documents. I am not making these numbers up, Madam Speaker. There was a study compiled by the Department of Finance at the time which was made public, which somehow or other got out, which said that the tax increases of $11 4 million in '92-93 were equivalent to an 11 percent increase in personal income tax in Manitoba or a 20 percent increase in our sales taxes.

So let it not be said that there have not been any tax increases under this governm ent. Of course, when we look at what has happened to the fee increases in nursing homes, that is a serious increase in tax on those people living in those institutions. When you raise Pharmacare deductibles, you are transferring. a burden onto Manitobans, and I would say that that 1s equivalent to a tax for those people. The abolition of eye examinations obviously is a tax for those people who no longer will quaJ.ifY for annual eye examinations under our medicare system. There is the increasing of tuition fees.

These are all real additional costs for the people of Manitoba, so let it not be said that people in Manitoba are spared additi onal taxes or charges because that is not the case. Another myth is that the budget protects priority social programs and confirms a commitment to health care which is second to none. Let us again look at the facts. You can quote all these percentages if you want about the percentage that we spend, but the fact is our hospitals are shrinking. We are cu tting hospitals, I believe, this year by $53 million.

I know the Brand�n ��spi� � been downsized year after year, and, agam, 1t 1s gomg m for some downsizing. We know welfare recipients have been cut They have had a 20 percent cut on top of other cuts. We mentioned Pharmacare reductions. Public education is being cut by another 2 percent this year. Daycare is being hurt as well. So let it not be said that this budget protects the social programs and confirms any commitment to health care. That is just nonsense. Madam Speaker, another myth is that the government is confirming its commitment to fiscal responsibility in this budget.

Well, I say, they have been playing around with this Fiscal Stabilization Fund now for too many years. It has been like a shell game especially back when it was established by Clayton Manness, when we should have had a surplus in the first year that they came into office-thanks to policies of the previous NDP government in large measure-but instead �e . ha�e a deficit being shown because they put $200 milhon mto a Fiscal Stabilization Fund. Also, there is such a matter as underestimating revenue growth, and we believe that is what is happening in this particular budget. It has

672 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 11 , 1996 been said that perhap s the government is putting monies away, squirreling monies away into some kind of a swplus situation to provide some slush funds that would be available when we get close to the next election and to be used fo r political objectives of the government in power here. The budget projects 1.5 percent revenue increa se, based on an economic growth fo recast that they are using of 1. 4 percent, and yet the minister elsew here in the document says that the provincial economy is steamrolling ahead.

Well, surely, Madam Speaker, that is contradictory and how can one say with a straight face that there is a commitment to fiscal responsibility? I am particularly upset about the budget because if any group in society is being hurt it has got to be the seniors . They have been hurt because of the real health care cuts that are occurri ng because of the Pharmacare cuts , because of the increase in nursing home rates and now because of privatization ofhome care . So they as a group are being hurt in particular.

I would also add, Madam Speaker, that as a group the people who are poorest in this province, fo r whatever reason, are also being badly hit The poor are getting poorer at the expense of others who are not nearly as poor, and it is, I think, immoral the way this government has carr ied on with cuts to people who have to seek welf are. Madam Speaker, I would also say it is immoral to use private companies paid for by taxes to provide home care services.

I simply think that it is simply unaccep table to have com panies being able to make profit on the backs of the sick and the elderly, courtesy of the tax system that they can use. I would like to talk a bit more about revenue s, because I believe that this government, indeed all government s, have to look fo r new sources of revenues today in order to provide the funding required fo r the various social servic es, health care and education ser vices, that people demand. * (1 540) I was read ing an

article recently about corporate welf are, about the biggest social programs in Canada being those fo r corpor ations. The whole area of tax loopholes, write-off def err als is an area that sho uld be looked into by our Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) , and he should be lobbying the federal government to end these or to scale them back because while we do not have figures on how much of this aff ects Manitoba, we do know the impact in Canada as a whole.

For exam ple, corporation tax rates, it is estimated that, if we had a compulsory 13 percent minimum corporate tax rate, which is only three -fifths of a tax rate fo r a wage earner making $20,000, we could raise another $528 million in Canada. The fact is there are many corporations which pay no taxes. Seventy-two corporations in 1992, which is the latest figures we have, with more that $25 million in profits, paid no taxes whatsoever.

Another 1, 136 corporatioos with profits ranging from $1 million to $25 million and totalling $4.5 billion also evaded Revenue Canada Altogether, 66,000 profitable corporations paid absolutely nothing toward the upkeep of this countiy, and one example that is provided is Imperial Oil in 1994, which made $16 7 million in profits and paid no income tax. I say that is an area that has to be looked at seriously by government . Admittedly, the fed eral government has to take the lead, but the province can do its

part in pressuring the federal government to move in this direction. What about our friends in the banking community? Bank net profits from 1984 to 1993 totalled well in excess of $39 billion on which they were taxed an average of 19.2 percent, well below the rate paid by most of their employ ees. So how about a surtax on exce ssive profits and get a little more from our bank s? Then there is the whole area of tax write-off s, Madam Speaker, and one prime example is the Canary Wharf situation where we covered the costs of bad loans that the Reichmanns had engaged in in that particular ventur e.

Corporations are allowed to write off bad loans against their profits , and this means that taxpayers have indirectly in this case sub sidized 44 percent of the big ban ks ' mistakes, a $6-billion write-off in 1992 costing each taxpayer $90. When the Reic hmanns took over the Gulf Oil company, the government let them deprec iate Gulf's assets fo r a second time fo r tax purposes, which cost the government $500 million in lost revenue or $30 per taxpayer. Then there are other exa mples . Tax def erral s. There is an endless array of tax avoidance techniques available.

April ll , 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 673 In 1972, using one example, tax deferrals totalled $2 billion, and now today, or the latest figures I have here, which are a couple of years old, they have gone from $2 billion up to $40 billion. Shell Canada alone successfully deferred $891 million, so it is estimated that, if the federal government began to charge 8 percent interest taxing this debt they have, they would bring in more than $3 billion of revenue. What about meals and entertainment deductions?

Again, here is an area where the gov ernm ent could do the taxpayers a favour and reduce, if not eliminate, this benefit. Paul Martin did lower the deduction to 50 percent after one of his Newfoundland members went public with his particular research, but the deductions still cost the Canadian taxpayer $245 million annually. What about individual tax abuse? Last year, 250 Canadians earning $250,000 or more managed to reduce their taxable income to zero and avoided paying any taxes, and there are all kinds of techniques that they used to do this.

There is an example about tax breaks fo r the rich that we had from Ontario, the Harris handout. He is pro posing a flat 30 percent tax cut. With that cut, Harris will give a millionaire 's family, a spouse and two children, more than $60,000. A poor family of fo ur making $30,000 will get $496, and money fo r the millionaire is equivalent to the welfare cuts to 17 single­ parent fiunilies, that is, a mother and two children. With an income floating around $2 million, the Bank of Montreal chief, the CEO of the Bank of Montreal, Mr.

Matthew Barrett, will receive a gift of $1 00,000, courtesy of this Harris tax cut. (Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) Mr. Deputy Speaker, we could go on- [inteijection] Beg your pardon? Not bad. So we could go on. The point is that the Manitoba go vernm ent, indeed all provincial gov ernm ents, share in this income loss, in this tax loss, that I made reference to over the past few minutes, and I would say that the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Stefanson) owes it to the people of Manitoba to do some research in this area as to the impact on Manitoba and lobby the federal gov ernm ent to either end them entirely or to cut them back. I would say that in the budget document itself, I note that when we talk about capital tax on banks, we have not changed that over many, many years, although I see just about every other province has increased the capital tax on banks between 1987 and 1996. Maybe this is another avenue of revenue fo r the minister. Perhaps he should be looking at that as well. At any rate, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I mentioned the need fo r revenue because this gov ernm ent, although it is now crowing about surpluses, has had a string of deficits year after year. While they criticize and comp lain about debt inherited from the previous government, let no one be misled to think that our debt today is lower than it was when they took office. As a matter of fact, total net debt in this provi nce is roughly a third higher today than it was when they took office back in 1988. So the debt has not gone down .

The debt has gone up, no matter which way you look at it, percentage wise or per capita, and that is because this government has engaged in some massive deficits. I think back to 1992-93, when they had a massi ve deficit, and it would even be higher if they were not able to take money out of the surplus in the Fiscal Stabilization Fund. They were playing around with that fund, as I said, like a shell game, and this is why I accuse the government of fiscal irresponsibility, because we have not been open and hone st as we should be with the people regarding the bottom line. The point is, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, this government has had huge deficits most of the years it has been in office. As I said, in 1992-93, it has the dubious