Volum e 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session V·ERBATIM REPORT TUESDAY, MARCH 9, 1976 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER Number 26

!'arch 9, 1976 Tape 994 The House met at 3:00 P.}!. l'r. Speaker in the rhair. Yr. SPEAKE!': !'1>. PECKFOPJJ : STATEl"'ENTS BY ~-!JNISTEPS: The hon. }!in:!ster of Hunidpal Affairs. ~'r. Speaker, clur:!.np, the past several months my IB-1 ilepartl'lent has been requested by petition to change the municipal status of the town counc:!l of Summerford and the local :Improvement district :fn Port au Port Hest- A~uathuna- Felix r.ove to that of a community council.

The petit:tons have received the thorough consideration of governl'lent and :tn each case it has been dec:tded not to establish comrnun:!ty councils in these areas and the petitioners have been so :!nfoTI'Iecl. It is the consideren op:!.n:fon of ?OVernment that the establishment of community councils to replace either local improvement il:fstricts or town councils is a regressive step, and :in fact vmuld create an uncles:frab]e precedent. Community council was originally resir,ned for the smaller centers with a limited demand for services commensurate with a relatively low tax burden.

In the case of the local improvement district of Port au Port Pest- Aguathuna -Felix r.ove a mttn:fcipaJ water system has recently heen installed at considerable cost and 1t is my department's opinion that ~ to•~ counc:!l :!s best suiten to carry out the management of this fac:!li.ty ~nrl to p] an and promote other capital expenditures as mav be necessary. Although the settlement of Summerford is not serviced with muni c:f_pal water anr se~·rer facilities 1 there have been continuing and persistent remands by the citizens on government for financing to carry out this project.

If the 11spirations of the cittzens with respect to the provision of mun:f c:f.pal facil:! t-tes ~enerally are to he met, it is my opinion that a tovm counci.l j_s more ideally suited as the mechanism to promote, p] an and finance such capit10l works. "r. Speaker, as t':fn:fster of l'ttni.c:l.pal 1\ffairs and Housing I must of course be concernec1 as ~rell w:!th the fRet that :It has never been the pc>l:f.cy of my department to peTI'Iit a munic:lpal:!ty once established 2604

March 9, 1976 ~ 'll. PErK!'0T'T): Tape 994 to revert to a lower form of municipal government. Approval of IB-2 the requests of the residents of Summerforrl anrl Port au Port­ Aguathuna- Pel:!.x Cove would no doubt result :In many similar requests be:lng received from other incorporated areas throughout the Province, and for the reasons citec1 above these requests similarly ~vould not be approved. I must emphasize, }<r. Speaker, that it is not the ~!ish of government to dictate to the residents of incorporated areas the manner in which the day to day business of the municipality is carried out.

It is the responsibility of my department, however, to ensure that the forms of mun:!.cipal organization being established are the ones best suited to the particular areas concernec1. It is :In this context that the decision not to establish community councils in ~ummerforrl and Port au Port West- Aguathuna -Felix Cove, ~'as taken. T aw convincecl that with the good will and co-operation of the citizens of these settlements that locaJ government w:lll be a succe!'ls and that the reasonable expectations of the residents can and will be achieved. t'r. Speaker, just to revie~v.

Number one, at no time in the past has the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing changed the municipal status of a municipality to a lower form of local government, and if it was done in this case it ~muld be setting a very dangerous precedent. Secondly, it should be remembered by hon. members in this House~-and the people generally in the Province, that the change to a town council from a local improvement district noes not necessarily mean an :l.ncrease in munic:l.pa.l taxes. It simply 2605

March 9, 1976 Tape 995 PK - 1 Mr. Peckford: means that the potential is there for an increase of municipal taxes if the citizens of that municipality desire major capital expenditures for improved basic facilities for that municipality, If the citizens of that municipality do not want additional and improved municipal services of a major nature then an increase in taxes will not be necessary. But if these people,' and in Summerford in particular,do not lvish to see a major water and sewer facility started there then their tax burden will be very much the same as it would be under a community council.

But if they will be demanding additional major capital expenditures or capital projects then it is only fair to conclude that the residents of that area must help to shoulder part of the financial burden. It is always recognized by government that the major financial burden for such municipal services will continue to lie with the provincial government. However a greater degree of fiscal responsibility must be taken by citizens in municipalities if 1~e are to continue to provide the kind of facilities that they have been desiring and demanding and wanting, and will continue to want in the years ahead.

SOHE liON • MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 1-!R. SPEAKER: The han. member for Conception Bay South . MR. J. NOLAN: I assume a question is permitted, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Yes, a leader of a group or his spokesman. l1R.

NOLAN: Yes, I merely want to ask a question for a matter of clarification, that is, because of the various forms of municipal government 1 whether it be collllllUnity council, local improvement district, or a tow"'!l council, and for the benefit of those who may be interested, especially those affected, is it not a fact that in a town council or local improvement district, and I ask this of the minister responsible, that a community of citizens have more power, more autonomy, more authority to devise their own destiny municipally under a town council or a local improvement district than,say,to a community council?

And would the minister care to comment that perhaps there is greater control,possibly,directly from the Department of Municipal Affairs possibly to a community council than there would be in 2606

Harch 9, 1976 Tape 995 PK - 2 t1r. Nolan: ----- certain other areas? What I am attempting to bring out here is; are they better off, not only the people concerned here, but others under either a local improvement district or a town council than under the community council system? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. llinister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. }1R .

PECKFORD: I do not know what you mean by better off, but taking tlwt to mean that the citizens would get better services provided, this kind of thing, I think it is fair to say that under the LID,which is only supposed to - it is devised as a temporary municipal organization until such time as the citizens decide on something more permanent, that they would be better off under a town council or a local improvement district situation.

The community council was devised for small communities of 300 or 400 people,where there was going to be a small tax burden, where they just wanted to organize for the sake of waste disposal, for perhaps street lighting, for some local road improvements. this kind of thing, and not for major capital expenditures. The other thing is, of course, the local improvement - the only difference between a local improvement district and a town council is one is appointed, the members are appointed, the other ones are elected. The powers that each has are identical.

The only difference is that in changing from a local improvement district to a town council you are becoming more democratic because you are asking the citizens of the area to elect people who must be responsible to the citizens, in the first instance, hence they would have more control. ~ffi. SPEMZER: The hon. member for Twillingate. }1R. SHALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the thoroughness with which the hon. minister has set forth the situations in Summerford.

He did me the courtesy to inform me privately of that decision, and as I told him I would do, I informed some people in Summerford of the fact tlwt he was going to make that decision known to them himself, which h{~ h~s nm·· done. And indeed I believe he has done even before this moment by telegram to some people in Summerford. 2607

!larch 9, 1976 Tape 995 PK - 3 :1r. Saallwood: I have co say to the House that t o say the least some people in Summerford- perhaps a majority , perhaps a large :najority , perhaps only a miniority, I do not know·-but some people in Summerford are vcr:y unhappy about this situation.

And there is a considerable amount of emotional feeling on this matter. ~d one lady there~who is a spokesman for the town, I do not know how official or how thoroughly representative , but certainly a very ardent and very expressive exponent of a viewpoint,has been on the telephone to me frequently and I had discussed the matter with her . And they say that she had a meeting LD her home the other nigh t of t'~enty-two men who came in and she wanted me to talk individual l y to each of the twenty-two men on long distanc e, 2608

M<1rch <1, 1976. !fP . !'' ci\LT.P0(1D: Tape 996 RH - 1 T r11 ther demurred at that, Hr. Speaker, though the cost would not have come out of my pocket excent as a citizen of the Province. ~ut I ended hy suRr.estinr, that really the time perhaps had come for all the peovle of the community to hold a meeting to discuss the matter openly and frnnl·ly, that if they did so and invited me to attenrl I '"auld, of course, as the electerl mel'lber for the constituency be happy and proud to attend , anrl thnt J coulrl not speak for the minister.

Fe was well able to speak for himself as the House so well knows,but that I felt that he would 11cccpt an invitat:l.on from them to attend so that He might have the interesting picture of the minister and I attending a meeting of all the people of Summerforrl to thrash the matter out. I may tell the minister that I doubt that they would accept anyone other than the minister himself from his department but we should make a very good combination. Between us He should perhaps get to the bottom of it.

I cannot resist saying that I am a most ardent supporter of the uhole idea of devolution, or decentralization of government, in other Porr1s, a supporter of municipal government, local municipal government. I h'lve not been ahle to see for many years how you can have successful provincial government without a very high degree of locnl self government.

T ,~ou] rl like to see po'l-7erful local self government in the beautiful community of Summerford Hhich when I first visited the place through the Dildo Canal hy boat, through the Dildo Canal was a community of perhaps twenty or thirty families and is today one of Newfoundland's finest cmmnunities and one of its larger places in the whole Northeast Coast, a delightful community, Summerford, as the minister must be aware as he is himself a r.rP.en !lay man, I believe. So we might look fotvard with great pleasure, r'Jr- tHo of us, tn attendin<- that meeting.

I >Tarned them though tt at I rl i rl not thlnl· it 1mulrl he possible while the llouse is :In session, that i ~ - •; i 11 1'"1Vf! rn "'nit ann t :·ds would be a matter - I saln I rlo not Jrn01~, rivr>. o-i:><, eiv,ht, tPn lJeeks, twelve weeks while the House is in session. AN HON. MfliBER: Go there during the Easter recess. HH. SHALUIOOD: Do not pre-empt Easter now because there may be all 2609

''n rch ", ].'17(• . Rll - 2 !IR . ~111\J.U.'OO O : I i.ncls of pl;m!l t'111t I'C<>ple '111V<' n!l to ,.·hat th~v wiJ l l-c cloi.nP. clut:inp. 11~v concPivahlP rn~cer reces~ . nut ~t any rntr. when the business of tht> llo11se "1.11 comnleterl for chis year then ~mul.rl he a ti.me for the minister, rcr!lnps ,and T to no there and meet the people face co face ns the ''inist e r of "ines nnd fne rgy put it the other day, heart co heart, knee to knee, sho ulder to sho ulder and face to face and try to ACt the mat t e r s t raightened out.

" !' . f.rr .... ;:r.r.: ··ow ~- efore asking whether there are any further ministerial scn t!'mP.nt~t T 1.d~h tn rlraw to the atten t ion o f hon . members t he presence in t he House of fifty-one younR boys and girls from BrlRus Academy f r om t'1c to:-m <>f P.rir.us. They arc 11ere with th r e e of thei r teachers , Xr. :iorm:m l:u~fo r d . lr . l'a rol.rl \.la r ke and Hr . llnrold St anfo r d .

To t he younr. rnl"n anrl women :mel co the teachers t would like. to ~telcome you to the Legislature on behal f of all hon. members and to express the hope that you r visit !•ere will ,,e interesting and instructive . Ar e there any further sta t ement s by minist ers? l'RESF ITrlr. PETITW HS : :m. SPF.AKP.R: ThP. hon. member for l.aPoile . IIR. S. N"fi\RY: ~lr . !'peak~r, I have a petition to present to the Rouse on hehnlf of fift y-five -cesirlents of Cape P.ay in the electoral district of l.aPoi~e . 26iQ

l'arch 9, 1976 Tape No. 997 N}l - 1 tWC. NEARY: The petition was written on February 12, 1976, sent along to me shortly after they got the signatures and addresses of the various people involved. I will read part of the prayer of the petition, Sir. It is self-explanatory. It is similar to the petition I presented the other day on behalf of the residents and fishermen of Harbour Le Cou.

"l~e the undersigned fishermen and interested citizens of Cape Ray, District of "~they had Burgee - LaPoile, but I crossed out Burgee, Sir, although I have to do a lot of work in that district - "earnestly request your attention to the following, As you are no doubt aware we do not have a harbour at Cape Ray. As a result we have to use small boats and haul them out after each use.

This is a chore that requires four or more men to perform,or else the haul out is extremely hard work, and as you have probably guessed most of the time it is hard work as it is rare that all the crews go out and return together. 11 We believe a small haulout could be constructed at CApe Ray to facilitAte launching and hauling our boats. We further believe timber could be cut locally thereby providing some Winter employment and further employment when the slipway could be constructed in the Spring.

This would be a big advantage to the fishing eommunity of Cape Ray." Well, Sir, I am very happy to be able to support the prayer of this petition and I am well aware, Hr. Speaker, of the government's austerity programme, helt-tightening,retrenchment and cutbacks but J presume when the government is talking about cutbacl's and so forth, Sir, they are not t~lking about cutbacks in facilities that will provide employment, that will add to our Gross Provincial Product and eventually add to the Gross National Product.

This is the sort of thing that we should be encouraging and I lJOuld assume that when the government is talking about cutbacks and retrenchment they are talking about water and sewerage and road paving and that sort of thing that do not produce any new dollars. But in this case, Sir, and in the case of Harbour Le Ceu, by providing these badly needed mechanical facilities to assist the fishermen 2611

Tape No. 997 NM- 2 !-~. NEAl'Y: to haul up their boats, they are creating an atmosphere whereby these men can earn a living for themselves and help to add to the Gross Provincial Product. So it gives me great pleasure, Sir, to support the prayer of this petition, ask that it be placed upon the table of the House and referr~d to the department to which it relates. HR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Fogo. CAPT. HINSOn: ~~r.

Speaker, we on this side of the House certainly support the petition so ably presented by the han. member for LaPoile and I can safely say that there is no place in Newfoundland where I think a haulout- and I should say the han. member should include that the haulout should be equipped with a mechanical winch - although whether this falls within the category of the provincial or the federal government I cannot say.

The people of Cape Ray, especially the fishermen,have been and are hard working.jndustrial fish~rmen and the least they can expect from one government or the other is equipment and slip facilities, haulout, call it what you may, in order to get their boats in and out cf the water, because very often Hhen you get a strong 'South West wind blm.1ing down that gulf, sometimes the fishermen there have to take their own lives in their hands to get their boats out of the water, let alone into the water. So, Mr.

Speaker, we here on this side support that petition and He asked the ~linister of Fisheries to take due note and supply those unfortunate fishermen up there with equipment they deserve. ~. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. '1R. W. CARTER: I believe that the provision of haulouts, slipways, harbour facilities and breakwaters are the responsibility of the federal gov~rnment. I would strongly suggest, ''r. Speaker, that the petition he sent to the Small Craft Harbour Division of that department, 2612

March 9, 1976 Mr. W. Carter. Tape no. 998 Page 1 - mw and I will be very happy to write that department, support the petition, and should Ottawa refuse to accept its responsibility in that respect, as they often do, then certainly my department will be quite happy to have a look at it and,if it is at possible. to accede to their request. But I repeat, Mr. Speaker, that we have to be very careful that we do not start assuming some of the responsibilities that are rightfully belonging to the federal government. Once we do that then we are stuck with it.

Once we start providing facilities that would normally be their responsibility, then it is going to be awfully hard to turn that around. Certainly I would strongly urge you to send that petition to the federal authorities, and we will certainly support it and do what we can to ensure that the - MR. NEARY: The federal authorities? HR. W. CARTER: We will send it to them. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Lewisporte. MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to beg leave to present a petition on behalf of 1,518 people in the Lewisporte area, and this is dealing with a federal matter, Mr.

Speaker, but I think it is a matter that we should take some interest in here in this House, and I am sure that there are a lot of members on both sides who are interested in the matter and who are interested in doing sometaing about it. The petition basically deals with Canadian National's operation in Lewisporte. I might read a bit of the prayer of the petition. "We humbly showeth that we demand the government make representation to Canadian National Railways and the East Coast Marine and Ferry Service to ensure that no reduction be made in the present CN service in Lewisporte.

And furthermore we demand the government request CN to increase and improve the facilities in the area. " We the petitioners feel that any reduction in CN service in Lewisporte would be a serious economic blow to the economy 2613

Harch 9, 1976 Tape no. 998 Page Hr. White. of the region and we, therefore, petition the government to do all in its power not to permit this to happen." Mr. Speaker, I might say a few words on this. 2 Canadian National, in Lewisporte, is one of the major sources of employment for people in the area, not only in Lewisporte itself, but throughout the Notre Dame Bay area and in particular the communities around Lewisporte itself. For the past couple of years there has been quite a bit of debate as to whether or not Canadian National is going to remain in Lewisporte and keep its facilities tnere.

And the way CN is run in this Province I wonder myself.The people who work for Canadian National are insecure. They do not know from one month to the next what the Crown corporation is going to be involved in in Lewisporte; how many men they are going to have on and whether or not men who were working last year are going to be working again this year· I understand it is the same all over the Province. They are running a sloppy operation in Newfoundland, and it is time that this Rouse said something about it. It is time we did something about it. I wonder som~times, Mr.

Speaker, if CN is not deliberately downgrading its service in the Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! _MR.

WHITE: It was suggested that the service was being downgraded in terms of the Newfie Bullet some years ago and that is why the Bullet disappeared, it has been suggested, and now the inefficiency of the railway in the Province has resulted in a lot of business people turning to trucks and trailers and so on, And I do not think our highways can stand that kind of pressure on the roads, and I would like to see this House do something, I do not know what, but I plan to talk to the Minister of Transportation and Communications to see if we cannot make some effort in making known to Ottawa some of the inefficiencies ~f Canadian National in Newfoundland.

I would like this petition referred to the department to which it relates. 2614

March 9, 1976 Tape no. 998 Page 3 MR. SPEAKER: The horr. Minister of Industrial and Rural Development. HON. J.LUNDRIGAN (Minister of Industrial and .Rural Development): Mr. Speaker, just a word of support for that petition. I can share the concern of the han. member having represented the district of Lewisporte for six years in the House of Commons. It frequently was an issue that was brought to my attention.

I believe this is the first time that a formal petition has been elicited from the public,and the support of over 1,500 names gives an indication of the level of concern that the people feel about the CN facilities. It is a vital aspect of the economy of the community. Lewisporte, as the han. member will continue to remind the House, is a pivotal point of the bay, a pivotal marketing centre. It is a very beautiful,relatively new town. I understand this is its centennia~.

It is still a town that has attracted a great deal of populations from surrounding communities who : have worked hard to build. up homes and own their own property. I believe it is a vital issue, and I would like to suggest that the hon. member can make available a copy of the petition to my office. As Minister of Industrial Development I will make an official representation on behalf of government to the federal government formally suggesting and supporting the petition that this matter be treated with a great deal of urgency.

The quality of the facilities, the level of commitment that has been made is unacceptable to the people of Lewisporte, and I fully believe that this kind of effort is a genuine effort that needs the support of the Province of Newfoundland. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. HON. B. PECKFORD Minister of Municipal Affairs and Rousing . ): Mr. Speaker, I would just like to lend my support to that petition presented by the member for Lewisporte (Mr. White).

As a former citizen of the municipality of Lewisporte and now as Minister of Municipal Affairs, I would like to support it on both accounts; (1) because I have a nostalgic

part in me for the area and for Lewisporte in particular; and (2) because the town of Lewisporte, the municipality of Lewisporte, is one of the better, if not in the top three or four municipalities in this whole 2615

··- Yarch 9, 1976 ~"!'. PECKFOl'D: Tape 999 IB-1 Province, and the people in that town have shown their responsibilities as citizens in R municipal way. The to~m, as the hon. Hin:lster for Pural and Industrial l'evelopment said, has grown in the last decade, has expanded quite a bit. There is good stock in the Lewisporte area, good people, and I think they deserve better treatment from Canadian National than they have been getting in the last few years, and I fully support the prayer of the petition. "MR. SPEAKEP.: The hon. member for LaPoile. }~.

NEAPY: I just have one short petition, at least I think it is a petition, Sir, although not exactly worded in the form of a petition but it is meant to be a petftion. It concerns the electricity ra.tes. It is from the Board of Trustees, the local improvement district of Seal Cove. They strongly support the petitions that have been presented in the House against the government's decision to increase the electrical - Seal Cove in ~.fu:lte Bay, Yr. Speaker -they are protesting the increase in electricity rates and of course I do not have to say anything further on that matter, Sir.

It has been aired sufficiently in the House in the last few days. But it is signed by ~·rs. Lillian ~iller, clerk, local improvement district of Seal Cove, Hhite !lay. So I would like to lay this on the table of the House. \\That is the score now, John? ~at is the score? Two hundred and what? PrESENTING PEPORIS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL CO~UTIEES: Y". SPEAKEP: '1' . rPOSil T:" : The hon. ~<inister of ~lines and FnerGY· Yr. ~peaker, I have an annual report for the year 1974 for ~ewfoundland and Labrador Hydro. I think that :Is the year jt :Is for.

It :Is a supplement to the one filed here last year hecause the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro came into effect necember 31, 1974, the beginning of 1975. This is the last report from the Newfoundland and Labrador Po~1er r.orporation >·rhich used to be known as the Newfoundland and Labrador Power r.ommission. It describes their financial statements 2616

"arch 9, 1 '176 "" r P 0~ 1HE: Tape 999 IB-2 for a nine month per.iocl endinr, ne'cernber 31, 1974 and their operation~;. I c.ommend it to 11ll members. It is interesting reading and also T wouJ d Hke to table a brochure prepared by Newfoundland and Labrac:lor Hyclro which describes their activities ancl information on the consumption of electricity and production of it in the Province and the like which ·they have available to give anyone who enquires. these. There are copies for the members and the press. ~<n . SPEfiKEP: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. I table Nl' .

ROBEP.TS : Hydro is now on a financial year which ends the thirty- first of March the same as the government's which means that their annual reporting period now under review will be that which ends three ~' eeks from today.

Hould the minister unrlertake to try to get us the interim fi.nancial statement on Hydro's operations during the fifteen months because t~is information here,which is now fourteen months old, i.s the most recent that is available pub] icl y~ Would the minister undertake to get us an interim statement of the Hydro's operation and position~ ~'T' • SPEAKEP : The hon. ~'inister of ~ines and Energy. l-AT'I CPOSBII:: >•r. Speaker, perhaps the hon. gentleman did not hear ~'hat I said.

The Ne1*foundland and Labrador Hydro came into existence in January 1, 1975 and there will be tabled in this Rouse a report for the calendar year 1975 before the session is over. There is no neecl to present an interim statement. The document just tablecl nolo/ brin~s the Newfoundland and Labrador Power r.ommission up to - they used to report at the end of March every year 7now it is going to be the calendar year - it is a report for the nine months from ¥arch 31, 1974 to the end of nece~ber, 1974. That terminates the old Newfoundland ;mel 1.abratlor Pmoer rorporation.

There will be another one tabled l•.rhen H is reac:ly for the calendar year, 1975. MR. POBERTS: Yes, but when? ~. r.~OSBIF.: Oh, I am not sure but before this session is over. 2617

l';uch '), 1976 Tape 99'1 IB-3 "P. SPEAKEP: The hem. ~rinister of Finance. 1'~,____!2_(10DY: "r. ;,pe11ker, this is a - excuse me, j t is nnt the subject matter, it is the f]u - this is the c:Jay 2618

Tape 1000 RP - 1 1\R. DOODY: many members of the House eap,erly a•mit from year to year the tabling of the puhHc accounts the year ending March 31, 1'}75. \ole also have as an adder\ tidbit the report of the Auditor General to the House of Assembly for the financial year ended 31st of ~~arch, l<J75. Both excellent documents, Sir! I am sure the House will find them interesting and enucational. '~R. NF.ARY: 11Tl.. DOODY: offtce. Do you have a copy for all members? J do not have them here but they are in the Speaker's 'IR.NF.ARY: 1vell I want mine right away. '>IR. DOODY: Right a~rav for Hr. Neary)please! '!R.

SPTIP<r:R: The hon. ~'inister of Justice. PnN A. RTCKNAN: l!r. Speaker, 1 table the Securities Amendments Regulations 1975 and the report pursuant to section (178)22 of the criminal code of r.anada. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: (See index) MR. SPEAKER: The hon. ~'inister of Education. !TON. H. lHlUSl'.: Mr. Speaker, there are a number of questions on the Order Paper of November 24 for the Minister of Education and some of them Here answered. But I have now the answers to forty-four more. They were submitted by the hon. member from Bellevue ('lr. P. Callan).

I might point out that in reference to the hon. member for Twillinp;ate (Mr. Smallwood), who asker\ for speedier response to his questions,that all the questions that were sul>mitted to the Department of Education or to the Minister of frlucation t~ere l1i!'hly statistical questions and required a. lot of research. ~1ncc this is a vear of restraint we have not been a~le to p,et extra people to answer the questions. But I now submit these forty-four answers. NR . SPEAKER: The hon. }Unister of Health . F!JN. JT. r.OLLINS: l•r.

Speaker, in the continuing story again of volume seven <'!nd volume eight, I have a number of questions here in the name of the hon. member from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood): Rns•rer to questj on Nos. 89, 369, 370, 371, 375, 384, 385, 388, 39n, 391, 392, 395, 4n?., 405, 4o6- even a fe•• cents per answer, Mr. Speaker, royalties somewhere - 4n7. 2619

Rll - 2 Tn the name of the memher for Carbonear (Hr. R. >foores) no. fi41: in tl 1e name of the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) (,)7, LaT'oile again 1 677, the hon. member for LaPoile,658; the hon. member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) a[';ain, 387; the hon. member for Carbonear (}lr. R. Moores) 637; the han. member for I.aPoile (Mr. Neary) 67fi; the hon. member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) 399; the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) 573; the hon. member for Carbonear (Hr. R. Moores) 639; the hon. member for LaPoile (llr . }1eary) 6RO; and the hon. member for Carbonear (Mr. "1-loores) f> 33. SO'll' nn'l.

MFHBER S: Hear, hear! The hon.member for Twillingate. ~1 R. Sl'IALU JOOD: Hr. Speaker, I thank the hon. minister for his magnificent nronuction here today for. volume seven ann eipht. I am beginning to he a little '"orrier1 with regard to volumes nine and ten. Some ministers seem to be still a little hit retarded in their progress. HR • SPEAV.ER: The hon. Minister of Industrial and Rural Development. HON . J. LUl'IDRir.AN: Mr. Speaker, after the last two efforts I feel embarrassed with only two answers here. Questions no. 679 and 689, both submitted by the hon. member from LaPoile (Mr. Neary).

The answers were prepared on December 19 and I guess, Your Honour, I will have to take responsibility for the inefficiency in having them tabled. I thought I had done it. I guess I did not go through the proper procedure. There are answers to questions - MR. NEARY: Just the Christmas spirit. MR. LUNDP.IGAN: That was it. The Christman spirit took over. The answers are to questions for which relevant information could be provided regarding loans and the Rural Development Authority. Other aspects of that are not relevant,as the hon. member will see, and also questions on resettlement. Mr.

Speaker, I might make a reference to the answer. The question was specifically about the amount of funds that were made available for resettlements since 1972, January 11 and the number of people that have been resettled under the Community Consolidation Programme. The ans.,e r to the fir s t p<trt on the number of families amounted to 346. 2620

"arch 9, 1976 Tape No. 1001 ~~. LlTNJ)RIGAt.l: the amount of money involved was $2,159,000 ~nd some odd cents. Ml'. SHAT>U1(1()D: ~Vhat was the date? NM- 1 ·~ UTNJ)HGAN: November of l!l7S,I am sorry, November 1975; 346 families, $2.1 million; for the year ending 1972 it was $416,000; 1n73 - $302,000; 1974 - $384,000; 1975 to November - $239,000, indicating-total administrative and barge operations as well which amounted to eight hundred thousand and some odd dollars - over ~2 million,of which the federal government contributed $1 million.

T would like to sug~est as v1ell that when the estimates are up hefore the House,Your Honour, that there will be an amount of evidence r,:!ven to inoicP-te that the programme has declined, this past year :tn particular,and I am concerned about the heavy administrative costs :!.nvolved, especially as it relates to the barge operations, and consequently I ~•ill be hav.lng some recollllllendatians for the hon. !Iouse :!.n the very near future regarding this programme for the next year. "R. SJ'ALLWOOD: Are the names of the places included? ~'n.

Ll'NDR!_GAN: I have not got it there, !:ir, but I can make it available. ~'R. Sl'EJ\KER: The hon. member for LaPoile. 1~. NEARY: I would like to thank the miristers for providing anst.;ers to questions th<~l" I had placed on the 11rder Paper some time ago. L1.1:e my hon. !!Olleague from Twillingate (:Mr. Smallwood), there is still a fair number forthcoming. I am wondering, ~r. Speaker, i. f these anst.;ers A.re made nvailable to the pres,;. There is some val uahle information i.n soD1e of these ansr.;ers. I am wondering if cop] c>s ar<' provi.dccc.l for the Press • .

Actually for the irformation of hon. members these anst .•ers are printed in l!an..,ard, and they are tal-led. The press do get a copy of Hansard. ORAL QUESTIONS: }'R. "'PEAKER: The hon. I>eader of the Opposition. 2621

Tape No. 1001 NM- 2 Mn. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, my question in the continued absence for the Premier, I guess should be addressed to the House Leader, the gentleman from Kilbride (Mr. Wells), could the minister tell us whether the government intend to proclaim the Termination Of Employment Act, which was Act No. 19 of 1973. ><J'.. SPEAKER: The hon. ~inister Without Portfolio. ''fR. :ffiLLS: }'r.

Speaker, after the Premier met, an<" other ministers met 'vith the men from Come By Chance, the men who have been terminated, there were discussions held which I understand were satisfactory to these men and the government m~de an undertaking to pay for the services of a lawyer to look into the matter for the men and to advise them. Now presumably that is going on,and depending on the advice that .they receive and what they request of government then government will look at the wh~le question. . }IR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, I will send Your Honour the requisite written notjce, but I give notice that I regard the answer as unsatisfactory and we could debate it on !"he late show Thursday afternoon, Sir. 1~. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. ~~. NEARY: I would like to ask the Minister of Health, Sir, if he could bring us up to date on when we can expect a report on the legalizing of denturists in this Province, when the minister can expect to give a report to the House? ~"F. SPEAKER: The hon. ~~inister of Health. ~. COLLINS: >(r.

Speaker, as the hon. member knows there was a Select Cotmnittee of this House established some time ago to look into the matter which he alludes to and subsequent to that there was a special committee appointed by my predecessor, headed by Mr. George G. R. Parsons to study the Select Committee's report and to make recommendations to the minister ''ith regard to the type of legislation whj ch should or should not he considered. That report has been received and it is now being analy~ed in the nepartment of Health, and within the very near future will be considered by government. 2622

' larch 9, 1976 Tape 1002 PK - 1 1-IR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Could the minister give us some time period lvhen we can expect to have the report tabled in the House? A week? Two weeks? MR. COLLINS: I would not like to make a commitment, Nr. Speaker, in the event that I might not be able to hold myself to it. But I can assure him that it is receiving the active consideration of the senior staff in the department now, and,as I said,it will be considered hy government just as soon as possible. l· lR. SPEAKER: The bon. Leader of the Opposition. 1-IR.

ROBERTS: A further supplementary to the Minister of Health. Could the minister indicate whether it is the intention of the government • to proceed at this session with the introduction of legislation to legalize the pr2ctice of denturism in this Province? HR. SPEAKER: ~lR . COLLINS : The hon. Minister of Health. We would hope that that will be the case, Mr. Speaker. Of course, there is a fair amount of legislation now in the process of being drafted. And I do not think I am telling anything - I am not talking about something that is new in this hon.

House, and that is t'lat there has always been a problem in terms of coming up with the necessary bodies to draft legislation. For some reason, they seem to bL· a particular breed of people which are not always and readily a,•,,ilahle, hut it is 0ur hope that we will be able to do something hf'fore the session ends. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Port au Port. llR. J. HODDER : Hr. Speaker, a question to the Hinister of Social Services. You •rill have to excuse my voice, I think I have influenza II.

Would the bon. i'!inister of Social Services explain to the House the: arithmetic Hhich led to his statement on radio at 1:00 P.M. tot1ay 14hich inclic2.ted that the number of heads of families receiving short term social assistance is at the lowest level in a number of years, when at the same time all of the statistical flash sheets produced by the government in the past twelve months show increases in the numbers receiving short term assistance from the previous year? :·IlL SPEA!cER: The hon. Ninister of Social Services.

I }1arch 9, 1976 Tape 1002 PK - 2 HR. C. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, I certainly cannot recall my exact ~>'Ords to VOCH or CJON, whichever radio station it was. ;!R. HODDER: r1R. BRETT: VOC!-1. VOCH. I do know that the short term case load has been declining over the past two or three years, and I think it is down this year from last year. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. HR. ROBERTS: Hr. Speaker, a supplementary.

Would the minister expand upon his ans,ver in view of the fact that the most recent flash sheet issued hy the government showed that the short term case load is, as of the month under review, which I believe was Janurary,was 14.5 per cent greater than the same case load for the same month in the year before. I mean, Mr. Speaker, the han. minister cannot be allowed to get away with this. pne or the other is not correct, either his statement to the Rouse or the official statement put out by the government's statistical services. MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, can I take that as notice.

I will give the flash sheets tomorrow and reply to your question. MR. ROBERTS: I ~rill table them today if the han. gentleman would like. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: A supplementary to the minister, Sir. If there is a reduction in the case load, wou!d the minister indicate to the House if he intends to use this savings, any savings, becuase of this reduction and pass it on to the people on social assistance as the government promised as of the 1st. of aanuary 1976,based on the cost of living1 NR . SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Social Services. MR. BRETT: ~fr.

Speaker, in reply to a question from the member from Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) a few days ago, that question will be answered when the budget is brought down later on this month. HR. SPEAKER: ~_IIOLAN: The han. member from Conception Bay South. :rr. Speaker, a bit of an unusual question, and all members, of course 1 get some unusual questions. Mine reGards hypnosis, which most members of this House can understand. There have been some inquiries concerning the use of hypnosis in this Province by so-called professional 2624

Harch 9, 1976 Tape 1002 PK - 3 Hr. Nolan: practitioners . I refer to the Reveen's, the Great Damant and so on. And the questions I have received I have forwarded to,r believe, the Minister of Justice . He in turn,I believe,was to consult with his colleague,the Minister of Health. Regarding anyone today , supposing for example, that,say , the Minister of Tourism wanted to practice hypnosis? Is there any law ? Is there a law or not a law to prevent him? Is there a difference where it is used for medical practices as opposed to say stage performances and so on? I wonder if the ~linister of Justice perhaps could be good enough to enlighten us on this situation? 262 5

March 9, 1976 Tape no. 1003 Page 1 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. RON. T. A. HICKMAN (Minister of Justice): Mr. Speaker, there are some constraints on the time allowed to answer questions of this kind that are of vital importance to the people of the Province, but I am sure that han. members will agree with you , Sir, in permitting me sufficient time to answer this rather devious question. As far as I can understand and ascertain, Mr. Speaker, there are no laws in this Province dealing with the subject of hypnosis.

I have consulted diligently and long with my colleague the hon. the Minister of Health. In that regard, we have spent the time that the subject demands and is worthy of, examining and perusing very carefully the Medical Act. Based upon these studies, it is my opinion, Mr. Speaker, and this opinion is given without prejudice, that there is no need for a licence for the use of hypnosis in the field of entertainment.

Consequently, we have no rules in this Province governing, or at least ryrovincial rules, governing the appearances of the Reveens and the other well-known hynotists who occasionally perform in this Province. I might add, Mr. Speaker, that all of this is subject to the proviso that any entertainment using hypnosis should be in good taste so that the person so using it will not find that he or she has committed a breach of the Criminal Code of Canada.

The hypnotist should also be very careful, very careful indeed that in performing his work and his profession, his avocation, his trade, that he not be guilty of any negligence. These statements of opinion are part of the general law, and I say, Mr. Speaker, that there are no statutory provisions.

Now in the course of our consideration and studie~ of this very vital matter, and looking at the Medical Act-that is the Medical Act, 1974 - one had to decide whether or not the use of hypnosis by physicians and dentists, who allegedly in some parts of North America sometimes use a form of rnypnosis in connection with their practic~ we have come to the conclusion, Mr. Speaker, that hypnosis is 262ti

tiarch 9, 1976 Tape no. 1003 Page 2 Hr. H:ickman. considered to be a part of physio-therapy treatment, and the whole matter would seem to depend upon whether or no~ hypnosis falls with the definition of the "practice of medicine" as defined in the tfedical Act. My view is, Mr. Speaker, that hypnosis when used as a form of entertainment, could not be considered

part 6f the practice of medicine. However, if a person is using hypnotic techniques, as a therapeutic procedure for the treatment of illness - MR. CROSBIE: Or in Cabinet. SOME HON. ~!EMBERS: Hear, hear! HR. HICKMAN: - disorders or other ailments, that person could be construed to be engaged in the practice of medicine. I trust, Mr. Speaker, that this opinion and these facts sufficiently hypnotize and confuse the bon. gentlemen present.

And I will undertake to very assiduously review the Standing Orders to see if there is any preclusion, or whether there should be any preclusion, of the use of hypnosis in this han. Chamber. SOME llON. MEtffiERS: Hear, hear! HR. SPEAKER: Before recognizing an han. gentleman I would . like to draw to the attention of members of the House to the presense in the gallery of some Grade VII and Grade VIII students, actually twelve of them, from St. Mary's School in Goose Cove, and they are accompanied by their teacher, Mr. John Murphy, and the principal of the school, and also Mr. Ken Maher.

On behalf of all han. members I would like to welcome these students from St. Hary 1 s School and to express the hope that their visit to the House will be an interesting and enjoyable one. SOHE HON. ME~ffiERS : Ilear, hear! 2627

Harch 9, 1976 Tape 101'l4 IB-1 >~. SPEAKER: The hon. me~ber for Lewisporte. } 'T'. WHITE: l'r. Speaker, I Hould like to direct a question to the ~·inister of ><ines and Energy. It relates to wood for Labrador T.inerho~r~ in Stephenville. A number of contrnctors in my district nre being told that the Linerboard needs no further wood at the present moment. Consequently they are sufferi.ng badly and a lot of reople are out of work. I wonder if the ~inister of Mines and 1\nergy could comment on it? 1"'1'. SPEAKEl': The hon. l'inister of "lines and Energy. MF. CROSBIE: ~·r.

Speaker, the position is that Labrador Linerboard has a high inventory of wood now as the result of a strike whlch went on for over three months- December, January, February- yes, three and a half months, so the mlll was not using any wood, and as a result of down time during 1975 generally so that its requirement for wood i.n the coming year will be less than it would otherwise have been. That means that there is going to be - its activity ~rill be reetr:tcted in the need it has for the cutting of wood during 1976 as I said in Stephenville last week.

Thi .s means, for example, that there will he 175 people who were workecl as lo!!r;ers i n the Bay St. Georp.e area who '~:Ill not he emp] oyed in that occupi!tion thi.s year because the camps will not be opening, and it \dll also rr.enn thilt T·re wilJ have less requirement for purchased 1mod. Ho~-rever there will still be /1 requirement for ~'00~. I cannot give you the exact figures, and <·re have to maintain the operat:!ons :!.n Labrador because ,,,e have to continue cutting there to make i.t ~-rorthwhile at all.

But those from Phom we purchase ~roo~ we <dlJ be attempting to keep up the purchnse hut I will have to p.et the exact f:l r,ures. llut at the present ti~e I do not think thilt they will be buying very IT'Uch !Jut thev •d 11 be later. I will have to r,et some fj pures for you. I will have to try and check that. ,,... SPEAKET': The hon. member for LaPoile. 2628

~~~rch 9, 1976 Tape 1004 IB-2 MJ'!. NEARY: l'r. Speaker, tvoulc:! the fofin:lster of Yanpower and Industrial relatfons :l.ncH cate to the House whether or not he is r,o:lng to grant a re<Juest by the International Brotherhood of ~lectrical l"orkers at Churchill Falls tn appoint an f.ndustrial enquiry to look into the c]j spute at r.J1Urchill 1':<1ls? 1'1' • ~- PF.AKP.T> : ' 'T'. ''ATh1JII'P : The hon. n .nister of Industrial Pelati.ons. T have not made a decision on that yet, ''r. Speaker, but when I clo J vill. certainly inform the hon. House. ~·r. NEARY: A supplementary? 1'1'.

SPEAn:r: The hon. member for LaPoile. ''1'. NEATJY: Hould the minister tell us when he expects to take a ilecis:lon? li ill it be a nay, a ~reek,a month, a year? l'mv soon does the minister expect to take a decision on this very urgent matter? ''T'. ~<AYNAP.n: c cannot give the hon. member, ~'r. Speaker, any specific time ,.men a decision -..yill be made. Ml' . SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposi.t:lon. ~,., J'OBEl'TS: A questfon for the Premier or alternately for the 1'in:lster of Justice, I al'l not sure as to wh:lch one would prefer to anst.rer it.

Could either of these gentlemen, Sir, in<'!icate to the House whether this governtrent have agreed to any request or any surr.estion that the constitution of Canada be patriated and if so, h11ve any conditions been attached to the agreement by the government of this Province? l!J!. SPF.M~Ell: The hon. l'remier. PFJl¥IF.!l ~·O(lPES: Nr. Speaker, there has been no agreement as yet. There is some concern expressed amongst various Provinces as to the intention of the federal government and the manner in ~rhich it is going to be <'lone.

That will undoubtedly be discussed in the next month or so at the provincial level and possibly at the provinc:!al-fec'eral level. At the appropriate time certainly I w:l.ll h~ statjng this Province's position. Hopefully it -.;ill he in the !'oRition of a rn11.inrity amongst the provinces. ''T'. 1'(1Bf.l'TS: !'r. Spe11ker, a supplementary. In view of the 2629

>rarch 9, 1976 ~"'. T'0 RI': l'T~: Tape 1004 IB-3 importance of the issue would the Premfer unc1ertake that no consent is given by the government of th1s Province without first seeking the advise of the ~ouse of Assembly of this Province? 1'1l. SPEAXEP.: The hen. the Premier. PJ!F.MIEP }!()()"fiES: I do not think we can do that, !-lr. Speaker, but what I can do - if the House is in session certainly that would be the logical thing to do, to inform the House and ·to advise them. It is of major concern.

It js of much more concern than most people,I think,realize because we are talking about the basic provincial rights within the r.onfederation framework and what could happen if it •ms unilaterally being able to be cone by the fec1eral government. It is of major concern to us as it is to every province. ~., • SPEAKEr : The hen. member f.or Conception Bay South. }'Tl, NOLAN: J'r. Speaker, a question for the hen. 1-finister of Forestry and ftgriculture regarding the freeze on farmland that he or his government has imposed in the last few years.

The question is , does he contemplate any changes in the act as it now stands, «here the freeze is on farmland. I am thinking about in the metropolitan area of St. John's and beyond, perhaps,in some instances, and is he in any position to provice any information on this at the moment~ 2630

l~arch 9 , 1976 Tape No. 1005 N}f- 1 ~m. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. ~ffi. ROUSSEAU : Hr. Speaker, 1'1.ot at this time, as I indicated publicly I think about three months ago or so when I met with the farmers in the area that I would hope to be in some sort of a position to suggest the policy of the gove~ent as it is now,or as it may be changed depending on the detailed inventory of the land that we have just completed; that T had hoped to have that sometime around the end of ~arch.

I am Rtill hopeful that if not by the end of March then certainly it w:'.ll not be too long into April before we will have some definite suggestion as to just what changes may,if any 1will take place as a result of the detailed land inventory and government policy. AN HON . ~"'liB En : Possible changes for the whole Province? MR. ROUSSE.&.U: No,that is just the Avalon Peninsula area, MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPibile. MR. NEARY: ~y question is to the Minister Without Portfolio, the Government House Leader, Sir.

I would like to ask the minister if it is his intention or the intention of his government to withhold any funds, any provincial funds for the Canada Summer GAmes until the Province has been assured that the government's public tendering procedure has been used in all cases where contracts were awarded by the Summer Games Committee. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. ~ ' inister Without Portfolio. 1-'IR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, the two things are unrelated. Monies that come from the - I presume the member is talking about the proposed Atlantic Provinces lottery, These monies will be paid into the general revenue of the Province.

It has nothing to do with the monies which have be~n provided to the Summer Games Committee by the government in the past two or three years and how they have been spent. ~'R. NEARY: ~~r. Speaker, does the minister intend to investigate this matter to see if there was any hanky-panky in the purchase of the land,or if the provincial public tendering procedure was used in the spending of any money that was passed over to the Summer Games Committee,and if not will the government withhold any funds that have not already been paid to 2631

March 9 , 1976 Tape No. 1005 NM- 2 M~. NEARY: the Summer Games Committee until it has been proved to their satisfaction that the public tendering procedure ¥7&8 used in cases where contracts have been awarded, MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister Without Portfolio. }ffi. WELLS: Certainly nothing has been brought to our attention, Mr. Speaker, that would indicate that anything improper or wrong took place, If it is brought to our attention and proof or substantiation is shown of something wrong then something will be done about it. \IR, NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, would the minister undertake to investigate the purchase of the land for the Aquarena and determine for the satisfaction of this House why the purchase was not made directly from the original owner instead of having a middleman? Would the minister undertake to investigate that and report to the House. MR. WELLS: That investigation can be undertaken by any member with twenty-five cents to go down to the Registry of Deeds and pay his money and check the records - MR.NEARY: The old runaround! !1R. WELLS:- as I am sure the hon. member has, That is the public :record of what happened.

I do not think any member, minister or anybody can do more than go down in the Registry and the public record is there, }~. NEARY: A supplementary question to the minister, Sir, Would the minister undertake to investigate to see whether or not it is improper or unethical for a lawyer in this particular case of the purchase of land to act for the vendor, to act for the Summer Games while at the same time being Secretary of the Summer Games Committee1 Would the minister undertake an investigation into that matter? MP .. ~ffiLLS: No, the minister will not undertake an investigation of that.

If the hon. member wishes to write the Law Society I will give him the address. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. 2632

~~arch 9, 1976 Tape No. 1005 NM - 3 11R. ROBERTS: A question for the Minister of Manpower. Would the minister indicate at what time he will be in a position to make a statement respecting the government's plans to provide summer employment opportunities for young people, particularly university students? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Manp~1er and Industrial Relations. '~ . XAYNARD: I do not think I quite understood the question. Is the bon. gentleman asking at wtat time I will provide the plans for summer employment? ~~. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I thought ~ had phrased the question clearly.

I shall try again,if the hen. gentleman would permit. Would the minister jndicate at ,.,hat time he will be in' a position to make a statement respecting the government's plans fo provide employment opportunities for young people, particularly students 9 this summer. ~. SPEAKER: The hen. Jofinister of Uanpower and Industrial Relations. MR . MAYNARD: Mr.

Speaker, the government of Newfoundland does not have any specific plans to replace the OFY Programme which was phased out by the Liberal Federal Government and their austerity programme. \.Je will employ students wherever jobs are available and in as many places as possible but there will not be any specific expenditures allocated for special employment project for that kind. At least we have no plans for it at the present time. 2633

~·· March 9, 1976, Tape 1006, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: ~r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: I have a question for the Minister of Tourism, Sir, and it relates to a story that appeared in !he Daily News some time ago, "Tom's Name Forged." Would the minister indicate if this matter has been investigated, if any charges of fraud have been laid against anyone for involving or forging the minister's name on any document submitted to the mainland? And while the minister is on his feet will he also tell us where the Norma and Gladys is at the present time? SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, in answer to the first question the incident was reported to my colleague the Minister of Justice and an investigation requested. That investigation, I understand, has been carried out. I am not absolutely sure but I believe that charges are in the process of being laid. With regard to the last question,would the bon. gentleman want a detailed answer? The exact position? MR. NEARY: I want it no matter how much it is. MR.

HICKEY: As of Sunday she was at latitude thirty-seven degrees twenty-one North, longtitude fifteen degrees West. Winds were thirty to fifty miles per hour. Seas twelve to twenty feet high. Speed six knots. Course 095 true. Raining and blowing. And the captain's comments; all A-okay. SOME HON. MErlBERS : Hear, hear~ MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Conception Bay· South. HR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, another question concerning the same matter to the ~1inister of Tourism. Would he care to inform the house how many members of the crew other than Newfoundlanders are manning the ship at the moment if any? 'fR.

HICKEY: Mr. Sneaker, I stated in this hon. house several times that there were no members of the crew of the vessel from outside the Province with the exception of one person who is a radio operator who I believe is from Manitoba and an employee of the Ministry of Transport. 2634

March 9, 1976, Tape 1006, Page 2 -- apb MR. HICKEY: Since the house closed there was a gentleman from Barbados who acted as engineer on a temporary basis while awaiting the arrival of an engineer from this Province so that the vessel would not be delayed any further going from Barbados, I believe, to Antigua. To my knowledge that is the only person - there has been some rather strange enquiries to my department. I might say some underhanded enquiries by anonymous people. I do not know really what some people are getting at. I heard just yesterday that there were all black people aboard that vessel.

I can only advise my hon. friend and this House and every­ one else that it is time that we just laid off this project and sto~ped with the nonsense. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: ~'IR. S'IALT..Unnn: Hear, hear! The hon. the member for Twillingate. Would the minister be kind enough to tell us in landlubber language ~•here the boat is and in what direction she is headed? MR. NEARY: And whether she is on top of the water or under the water? MR. HICKEY: I am sorry, Your Honour, I was not being facetious when I gave that report.

That is the accurate report as of Sunday~ but I did omit to say that that is off the Coast of Spain. She is making good progress. And my hon. friend from LaPoile, I can tell him she is on top of the water and performing excellently. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: ~tR. NEARY: Hear, hear! The hon. the member for LaPoile. This question is for the hon. the Premier, Sir.

Would t he Premier indicate to the House whether or not it is correct that th e ove rtime law that was passed in the last session of the llouse ~<hen we amended the Minimum Wage Act, if that overtime Jaw is heing flouted and if it is is it being done with the knowledge or consent of the hon. the Premier or any member of his government? "'R. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES : ~ot to my knowledge, Mr. Speaker. I will take the question as notice and enquire further into it. 263S

March 9, 1976, Tape 1006, Page J -- apb MR. SPE!XE.R : The hon. the member for Port au Port . HR. HODDER: A question to the Minister of Municipal Affairs. In light of the strong feeling in Port au Port West - Felix Cove­ Aguathuna about town councils versus community councils -is it a concern of the minister that the people o-£ the area might not support a town council? And if that is a concern,will the minister meet with the people of the area and explain his decision to them? 2636

March 9, 1976. Tape 1007 RR - 1 "'R. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. TlON. Jl. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I think it is incumbent upon the hon. ~emher,as well as the hon. minister,as well as people in the area to t>xplain to the citizens who have felt so strongly about a coiT41lunity council being established to explain to them just what a town council means, how it operates and that there is very little difference in that and in the local improvement district.

But time permitting later on in the Spring I 1~ould be only too happy to meet with any interested people in that municipality to explain my position. I think I have made it pretty clear now. ~'y regional administrator 1rlll be making 1t clear on the 1-iest Coast to the people. But if they would like me to attend a meeting or to talk with them later on the Spring I will be only too happy to explain my position as it now stands and as it will continue to stand. HR. SPFAKER: The hon. member for Lewisporte. !'R. F.

HHITF.: T have a ttuestion for the ~.inister of Municipal Affairs and Housing ~rith respect to the freeze on the further incorporation of towns, co1'll!lunitiP.s or whatever in Newfoundland. '1-Jould the minister indicate that in view of the large number of places that want incorporation, whether or not he plans to change ~is present policy in the near future? 'ffi. SPFAKER: The han. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. ~~R. rP:r:KFnr.n: '1r. Speaker, that matter will he on the review after t'•e httclget is pre~enterl and the estimates passed in the House.

Then the m:1tter will come under revie" by government, not only hy my department but hy Cahinet. Then a dedsion will he made and announced at the time whether '"r "i.ll keep the freeze on for the remainder of this year or ~~hether 1-re '"i 11 i1ll.O~>' further incorporations. So a decision will be made later on i ' ! rhP. Sprin~. I'P. , SPEAKER: ~1e hon. me~her for Lewisporte. A supplementary question for the minister. r.ould the w.tni.s ter tell us whether or not there have been any exceptions to the rule with r ~ ~n0ct to thn freeze? >Tr. SPEAKE~: The hon. l'l'l.ister of !1unicipal Affairs and Housing. 2637

"'- ~larch 9, 197fi. Tape 1007 RR - 2 Mf',. PECKFORD: Hr. Speaker, the time frame that the han. member has in mind will have to h~ explained to me before I can give a correct anmver to that question. !~R. I.JlllTE: Since the austerity programme came in, }1r. Speaker. Mr.. PECKFORD: No, ~!r. Speaker, not to my knowledge. '1R. SPEAKER: ~e hon. member for LaPoile. I should point out that t 11is <.Jill he the J ast question and answer. HR. ~lEARY: Hr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister without Portfolio, the r:overnment House Leader.

Would the minister tell the House if we are goin~ to have a provincial lottery as was reported in the:newspaper this morning, either on our own or whether we are going to join with the other Atlantic Provinces in having a lottery? If so, what will the money be used for, the funds that are raised through this lottery? HR. SPEAKER: Tte hon. Minister without Portfolio. r!R. R. WF.LLS: Hr. Speaker, it has been decided that we would join with the other Atlantic Provinces in a lottery, an Atlantic Provinces lottery. The conditions and details are being discussed now between officials of the four Atlantic Provinces.

The money when'it is forthcoming, I understand, will he based on the proportion, of course, of the sale of tickets in each of the four Provinces. The money will go into the general revenue of the Province 1as I understand H,and not be earmarked to any specific project. AN HON. HF:MBFR: General revenue? !IR. HELLS: }!R. NEARY: 'IR. HELLS: HR. NEARY: HR. SPEAKER: General revenue. Could it he used for education or anything or water and Yes. I see. ORDERS OF THE DAY: Order (1), the Address in Reply which was adjourned by the hon. Leader of the Opposition. HR. ROBERTS : Well, }1r.

Speaker, having made a few preliminary remarks in this debate T would like to come to one or t<vo other points I wish to make. 2638

~larch o, 1Q76. ~IR. ROBF.RTS: Tape 1007 llli - 3 T am sure a number of o~her hon. ~en~lemen will want to get into the debate on the amendment. Then when we have disposed of the amendment, which doubtless will be carried,! would hope that o~her hon . gentlemen will ~et into the debate on the main motion itself. ~ r.

Speaker, let me beg in with a few remarks on the ma~ter in respect of which I addressed a question to the Premier earlier this afternoon and that is the question of the patriation of our c~nstitution , the British North America Act. 1 would hope very much that the Premier will insure that no consent is ~ive n by the ~overnment to any change in the present arran~ements, the conRtitutional arrangements 1 without first getting the opinion and the .1•lvJ.cc nf thr. lll('mhr-rR of this llnu!le. Then• js nn eaR)I WAY for the p.overnment to do thi.s .

The Premier said, well , we do not know if the !louse will be in sesni~n. I s u~posc he could also take refu~e in the fact that any act clone by the ~o vernment is a matter of possessing t he confidence of the llouse and if the nouse felt particularly strongly and chose to withdraw its confidence on this issue , that, of course ,woul d ~ean the collapse of the ministry and then the normal cons"titutional provisions would take over . But 1 do not 2639

March 9, 1976 Tape 1008 PK- 1 Hr. Roberts: think it should come to that at all. We all know that the Constitution is under discussion. We all know that the Prime Minister of Canada is anxious, and that the Government of Canada have adopted it as a policy to bring the Constitution home. It is not a matter of repatriation - we have never had it in Canada - but a ~atter of patriation. And I think that we would all agree that Canada should have its Constitution within its own jurisdiction.

It is somewhat absurd that a country that is an independent nation, a full member of the family of nations, independent in every way - we have our own Queen. The Queen of England is Queen of Canada, and we pay allegiance to the Queen, we take an oath to the Queen, the ministers governor in the name of the Queen 0 But in each case the oath ~~e take is to the Queen of Canada, the allegiance which the ministry owe the Crown which the ministries serve is the Crown of Canada, and that is the Constitutional theory and that is the practical reality of it. But, Mr.

Speaker, despite that, despite the fact that we are independent as a nation and have our freedom to do what we wish, have all of the incidents of any nation anywhere in the world, all of the powers and potentials,we lack one, ~significant one, and that is the power to amend· our own Constitution. The Constitution of Canada, our Constitution,is nothing more or less than

an act of the British Parliament, the British North America Act, 1867. and amendments, or as amended is the way it is described - it has been amended a number of times -and yet the fact remains that if we in Canada today want to change our Constitution we have to bring it back - I am sorry,we have to go to Westminster, to the Parliament of the United Kingdom and ask them to do it. Now they will do it. But they have done it on a number of occasions, and they will do'it quite readily on an address, a joint address by the two Houses of the Parliament of Canada, the Senate of Canada and the House of Commons of Canada. There is no question about that. 2640

March 9, 1976 Tape 1008 PK - 2 HR . ROBERTS: But it is an anomaly, and it is a fairly, a significant anomaly. But Mr. Speaker, I know the Minister of Justice will agree with me that while we all desire to bring the Constitution home, to bring it to Canada,it is not quite as simple as it appears. Because it is one of these propositions that is very attractive on the surface but has very real and very hicden dangers. The Constitution as '"e all know provides,among other provisions, and I think among the most important of its provisions, for the division of legislative powers. This Parliament here, Mr.

Speaker, is not a subordinate Parliament. Ve are not subordinate, as long as we operate withjn the legislative competency given to us by the British North America Act,and the relative sections as Your Honour is intimately aware are sections 91 and 92, as long as we operate within those powers, the sections dividing the powers.- all the powers the Government of Canada are divided as between the Federal Parliament and the Parliaments of the Provinces- as long as we act within those powers. we are supreme. Now a footnote, there is a disallowance provision in the Constitution. I am not sure when it was last used.

It might have been used - No the Alberta Legislation was not disallowed in the Thirities, the funny money stuff. I do not think it has been used in this century, Hr . Speaker. HR. S11ALLWOOD: }111.. ROBERTS: Oh yes, yes, it has. Has it? TI1e han. member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) >muld remember because in the early 1960 1 s there was some suggestion that the Diefenbaker Administration be asked to disallow some legislation here.

There was an instant early in the 1960 1 s when the Lieutenant­ Governor of Saskatchewan reserved a bill, the governor has that power when he comes to give assent, the cermoney that takes place two or three times during a session, the final act in the legislative process, the governor can reserve a bill and signify that he is sending it forth to 1)t tatm.. And in fact I believe the clerk of the House as a matter of re<Juirement must send a certified copy of each - 2641

March 9, 1976 Tape 1008 PK - 3 fill liON . MEMBER; The Minister of Justice has it now. MR. ROBERTS: The Minister of Justice has it now,has he? But, you know.an interesting hangover from one hundred and some odd years ago. But the fact remains that even when Mr. Hanbidge, the hon.

Mr. l!anbidge,the Lieutenant Governor of Saskatchewan,reserved the bill Ottawa took hands off, and said in no would they disallow a bill, and I think no1v that while the power might still be in the British North America Act as it is, in fact mos1; lawyers would give their opinion that the power has fallen into disallowance, fallen into, what is the word? Desuetude. fiN llON. HENBER: Desuetude. ''R. POBf.!lTS; ------ Desuetude. Well in any event it is d-e-s-u-e-t-u-d-e. HR. SHALUIOOD: Yes. I wonder if the hon. · gentleman- ~m. ROBERTS: I will yield,sure. HR.

Sl".ALLWOOD; - would allow me to remind him that before we became a Province at all, and became suiject to the British North America Act,we were as a colony and subsequently as a Dominion, if we ever were, under the Colonial Laws Val:l.dity Act under which all laws en:1cted by the Jlouse of Assembly had to be sent by His Excellencylthe Governor of ~ !el·l foundland to the Colonial Offic e , and subsequently the DoiTtinion's office for acceptance or rejection as the case might be.

He have allvays, and even today theoretically,are still subject to somebody else's decisions as to whether the laws we pass are viable, are acceptable. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. gentleman for his question. 2642

March 9, 1976 Tape no. 1009 Page 1 - mw 'Mr. Roberts. The Colonial Laws Validity Act, which ~vas really the key piece, the key legislative piece in the process by which the Government of the United Kingdom exercised constitutional control, legal control over the parliaments of the colonies, the several colonies, really fell into disuse in respect of Canada early on in this century,if not earlier, and with the Statute of Westminster in 1931 it was legally buried.

But I do know whether it has been used in Newfoundland since the start of this century, during that period from 1900 to 1931 when it theory it was there, but when you look at the Statute of Westminster of 1931, Ne~~foundland is named along with all the other Dominions, Canada, New Zealand, Australia. MR. SMALLWOOD: Not as a Dominion. MR. ROBERTS: Well, there is a very good argument as to whether or not we are a dominion, and I am not saying we are or we are not. Indeed that may become of great interest if we ever have to go to the Supreme Court of Canada on the offshore rights issue.

The fact remains in the Statute of Westmin•ter as encacted by the Parliament of the United Kingdom, Newfoundland does take her place and if the Colonial Laws Validity Act had any value before then, it has much less, because as of that point the ministry of the United Kingdom declared that as a policy they would never use it again. But the fact remains that even though there is a disallowance power in the British North America Act, I do not think that very many lawyers today would seriously advance the proposition that it could be used by the Government of Canada to disallow a provincial law.

And even if it could be so used in strict legal theory, in practice 'there would be an unholy row, because it strikes at the very heart of representative government. The point I was making before I went off on this somewhat extended footnote into constitutional history was that the British North America Act,in what I consider to be its most important provisions, divides the legislative jurisdiction into two great parts; one part being reserved to the Parliament of Canada, 2643

March 9, 1976 Tape no. 1009 Page 2 - mw Mr. Roberts. and another part being reserved to the parliaments of the several provinces. This to me is at the very heart of any question of patriation of the constitution, because patriating the constitution, Mr. Speaker, is not just a matter of having, I do not suppose, the Parliament o~ the United Iangdom, pass

an act declaring that the British North America Act 1867 to 1964 no longer is a statute of the United Kingdom and having whatever the process is, having the vawtous legislative bodies in Canada adopt the Canada Act, which would presumably be the same as the British North America Act. It is not just a matter of that, of nice,neat draftsmanship and a very historic moment and some marvellous speeches and all that. The real question of patriation, and it is important, it is of crucial importance, is the amending process, and the amending process, Mr.

Speaker, means, in the sense of which I am speaking, the ability to change the distribution of powers as between the Government of Canada, the Parliament of Canada, on the one hand,and on the other hand, the government of the provinces and the parliaments of the provinces. Mr.

Speaker, the reason why I would urge the ministry to debate this in the House, to have it debated, and if they do not want to wait, if we are not at the point now where the ministry must take a decision, I would imagine the lines are well laid out, the alternatives are well-known, and let them arrange to bring it before the House, put down a motion and set aside a day or two or three, and we should do that in this House. We should not have too many of these long debates.

Let us take a day or two or three on a specific topic, have a motion put down, and have it debated and then at the end of that period - and that will give ample opportunity for every member to say what he wishes on it - let us, if necessary, have a vote, or if not, let the matter just move aside and the House can move 2644

~larch 9, 1976 Tape no. 1009 Page 3 - mw Mr. Roberts. on to some other business. But we should discUss the British North America Act. We should get the sense of the fif~y-one members of this House, forty-nine as there now are. forty-eight, as there will be ~y by the end of this month, l believe. 1 do not want to anticipate what Mr. Justice Mahoney - is it? - or Mr.

Justice Goodridge will rule in respect of the petition, but we should get the sen_se of the members, Because once the constitution is back in Canada, then it will bring with it an amending process and that amend-ing process, Sir, could be of the utmost importance to tbis Province because it could affect very vitally our entire role as a Province. The amending process, whatever it c_ould be, could be used t .o provide, fQr example. that provinces no longer have jurisdictiDD over the whole educational field. It could, 2645

"arch '1, 1976 Tl'lpe 1010 B-1 ,,., POBEl'TS: and that is certainly something that coulcl be aJllended. Your Honour, let me interrupt for a minute. I have just noticed -and Your Honour would l~ish to the appropriate - go aheacL }W .. SPEAKEr: Yes, I was goinp. to call a point of order. I would like to bring to the attention of the han. members that Mr. Ed Tiroadhent, the national leader of the N.n.P. "Party is in the gallery, and J >'oulc'l 1 ike to acknowlec:lge his presence. Hear, hear! The bon. Leader of the f'ppoRH:ion.

Thank you, Your Honour, and I knm~ l•7e are all delighted to see ~·r. 1'·roac1bent here in our Province ar.cl c1elightec:l to have him come in the !1ouse. Perhaps another time :if he comes we might arrange to extencl to h:il!' an :invjtation to ask him to adc1ress the HouRe for ten or fifteen or twenty minutes. I for one would very much enjoy that. ~·r. Speaker, the point I was making about the amending process is that it could be used to change fundamentally the balance of governmental or legislative power in Canada. I do not know what the Prime "inister has proposed.

It is not information to which I al't privjJe~ed. I lmm~ what his thoughts were three or four years ap;o. l l•'ftS one of the ministers who represented Newfoundland at a conference helrl :i.n '·':ictoria, in British Columbia, I believe it was in June of 1 q71 •·rhere all of the ten provinces agreed and the Government of Canada agreed to '-' process whereby the constitution could be amended. That was the only stu!!'bling block towards patriation. At the encl of that session held jn the legislative Assembly in Victoria the Premier of Quebec, ~'r.

Bourassa, raised his hand and saic1, in effect, Prime ~'inister my consent here is conditional and it is conc:'ition<'!] npon ~"Y checki~g with my colleagues in the cabinet and my colle,.rnes :in the caucus in the House of "'hatever they call it, the Naticmft] M;semh]y they call it. We all kno•' that shortly thereafter the '"ord cftme through that there '"as no consent from Quebec ' ~nd so tl,e 1choJ e process collapsed. 2646

!'arch 9, 197 6 Tape 1010 IR- 2 J fin not knm-1 ,.,},at the Government of Canada propose nn~' . They have initiated it. It has not come from any province. No government 0f any province wishes to raise this as a priority but the Government of Canac1a do. So I would ask the m.inistry, ~'r. Speaker, in very genuine anc1 very urgent terms to let us know what the situation is.

There is obviously a degree of confidentjality between governments,! realize, hnt in vie"' of the fact that the Prime l'finister somewhat publicly rai sect the matter in ()uebec City in a speech on Fric1ay night I think it is fair to R~y now that he has given his consent to have the discussion T"ove into the public c1omain as opposed to the realm of the Privy rotmcil office officials coming.back and forth and talking.

I do not lmnw, I suppose the ~'inister of Justice would be the lead on the Ministerial level in this Province,or the Premier or to "'homever the officials choose to speak when they come here and Hhoever chooses to speak to them. So let us have the position on this.

Let us not wake up some morning and discover that the government of this Province have consented - they have the power to consent - but before they consent let them C01'1e to the Rouse and let any member who wishes to speak to that point make his views known so that when the government come to r,rapple ••ith the :Issue and to c:lecide whether they say aye or nay to a proposal or aye or nay to a series of proposals, let them have some idea of how the House representing the people of this Province feels. l gather ~re are fairly close.

The Prime ~'inister has indicated thnt he is not prepared to let the matter drag much longer. That seemec1 to be, among other things, the drift of what he was saying on FriClay night in what "'as obviously a most important and most entertaining and most eloquent speech in Quebec City to a meetinr of a non-profit educational ins.titution in that Province, namely the Liberal Part y of Canada in f1uebec. Perhaps when the Yinister of Justice speaks in the Throne Speech i!ehate he coulc1 take part of the ti.me allotec1 to him and 2647

!'arch 9, 1976 ~11'. P!JBEr>TS: Tape 1010 outline the ministry's vie<vs and outline the proposals that have IB-3 he en put for<·larcl. Jt is im.portant. It l s not just a theoretical Question. If <•le get the constitution back in ~e~n:tc1P •v:lth a ceT.tain amenninr: process then •.ve are bound by that. Tf that amenc1ing 2648

}'arch 9, 1971i. '1R. ROBERTS: Tape 1011 RH - 1 process can be used to affect our rights, ~e should know in advance what it is. I am not one of those who thinks we need unanfmity to amend the constitution. But I think that the type of proposal worked out in Victoria,vrhere certain matters were entrenched and could be amended only ,.,ith unanimity, other matters were, I think, sub .1ect or capable to nmcndment •~ith agreement ~y I think it was two-thirds of the Provinces involving at least the population or possibly it was half the provinces involving two-thirds of the population.

Either way, either Quebec or Ontario "oulrl he required to assent to an amendment before it went th rour.h, these being the two largest Provinces. There an• other infinite variations and I am not proposing to go into them nm1. llut I do think the government of this Province have an obligation to let the legislative Assembly of this Province know and do have an obligation to come before us. I suspect they •~ould not find any disagreement.

I suspect that the position which was taken by the Smallwood administration in 1971 in Victoria is a position which any government of this Province shoulrl adopt because there may well have been advances on it and there may well have been changes. I do not think the matter was rlebatec1 in 1'171 in the legislature. The House was about other matters. ~lr. Speaker, I am not sure whether there were any working papers by the government of the Province. I am not sure whether any were or were not. lly Cabinet records are enshrined in about twenty great voluminous tin boxes in a buildinp here in St. John's.

To he honest, ~~r. Speaker, I l,;wp not l oov.cd at them since I left office. One thing ahout the four Mnnth interregnum Following the October 28, 1971 election was that we h"cl loans of time to move out our files and I certainly moved out all mv ministerial files. I have to look up and see whether there are anv worl-ing papers. I do not remember. But Cabinet files would say >rhether there were or not. I know there was a clear understanding of the position. T'H• rnrm r,-ho "ere thE'n in t'f-te ministry, the p;en.tleman from T,yillingate (Hr. Sm~llwood) was therE'; Mr.

Rill Callahan was in Victoria,as I recall it; 2649

' ',•a I r 1 1 ' 1 , I 'I Jf , Tnpe 10 I I '~" -- ? Mr._ l>lilliam Po~1e; myself; the then Mayor of St. John's, the then Mayor of Corner Brook were part of the delegation, Nr. William Adams and Doctor ~.Joel Murphy; the then Attorney General, the han. L.R. Curtis, Q.C. would hnve been present. I am not sure who else was or was not. But I do not know whether there were any working papers or not. But I know the Province's pos:i.tion ~;as very clearly set forth, very specifically set 1- ortl).

It ~~as one which I believe then ann believe now in the absenee nf PVi0ence of the contrary to have been in the best interests of this Provine~'. ·'Is l recall it we felt that certain provisions in the- con- qt ilution .~1tou]d lw r.ntrencherl and certain provisions shon]cl he capable of :J.menclment l1y a dt>p:r.ee of af(reement or degree of consent less than unn~imity of nll e]t>ven r,overnments. Some matters can be amendecl solely by the C:overnment of Canada, by the Parliament of Canada,but that is the present state even now. There are a number of topics - I am sorry?

A'l nnN. '11\HFIER: Of what type, starting when? '~1?. ~nRF.RTS: Well, Hr. St. Laurent was the Prime ~finister when the first changes Here made. But, for example, would anybody argue that the House of Commons representation is a matter that should not be done by the Parliament of Canada. I mean, that, T think, :l.s the best example. It has been amended tuo or three times since then. Indeed the representation in the House of C:onmons is now carried out, not under the B.N.A. Act but under a statute of the Parliament of C:anada, just as the representation in tMs House of ~- ssemh] y is carried out not unrler the 11.

N .A. Act hut under the authority of our statute here. I am not speaking of the Senate which allegedly is the gnardian of provincial interests and as so was set up 110 years ago. ~·Ir. Speaker, I do not intend to go on on the point. I wanted to make the point. I believe it to be important. My concern is that the matter bP c'lehil.te<l so that members who wish to speak to it can. Uy concern in the debate would he with the amen<ling process. I believe we should have our constitution in Canada. I believe that we should have constitution i.n r.anada so that we .can amend it where we wish. It has been amended a 2650

Hare; <l, 1976. l'n. ROBERTS: Tape 1011 RH - 3 number of times hut it is still a cumbersome process and :f_t is not a proper process for a self-governing and an independent nation. But I do not want to see it come to Canada, I do not see it capable of amend­ ment in Canada if the effect of that is to prejudice the very existence of the governments of the Provinces or the Parliaments of the Provinces. That is really all I want to say. But I would hope the Minister of Justice ui.1l address himself to it or alternately and preferably if the government would undertake to set aside a day or two for a debate on it.

Then a minister or some spokesman for the government could state a position and a spokesman on this side could state a position in turn. Then han. members could speak as they sa~~ fit and at the end of it we would ~et a resolution on the point at issue. I suspect there would be unanimity. I am not aware of any great debate hut it is important. He are here not just as guardians of the next four months of the next four years. He are not here just to administer Hhat is happening tonay or next Heek or next month in this Province. We also stand here, ~ 'r.

Speaker, as members of the thirty-seventh general Assembly of this Province. There will be thirty-seven more following uR. We stand here as guardians of the traditions that we have inherited and resnonsihle to posterity for what we do to perserve, to enshrine and to protect and to embellish those traditions. Changing the constitution is very much part of it. 'fr.. Speaker, let me turn to two or three other matters in conclusion. T ~<ant to say a few words about the financial picture of this Province hecause I believe that is relevant very much so to the amendment under debate.

It is not the budget debate and so I do not propose to go into it in the type of detail or in the type of approach that I would adopt if were it the budget debate when the budget debate comes. But I do want to say that again, Mr. Speaker, here is an area where the government must he more specific, ~~here they must tell us, tell the House of Assembly and tell the people of this Province 1 exactly what they see and what they rroposc '~c try to achieve. I do not need to ~o through the dismal figures nt any length. h1e are all only too familiar with them. The taxes are onerous and they are rising.

The debt is growing rapidly. Indeed it is quite astounding, Hr. Speaker, 2651

March 9, 1976 Tape No. 1012 HM- 1 Ml' • ROBF.FTS : how rapidly the debt of this Province has grown in the last three or four years. I thank the Minister of Finance for his courtesy and I assume that was the debt prospectus he was tearing up. But the debt of this Province, Mr. Speaker, :l.n ·round terms has doubled in the last three or four years and gives every prospect of gain~ up and up and up. Equally the unemployment situation continues to ~et worse and ~~e talk about it and we talk about it and gentlemen on the other side think it means nothing,and gentlemen on this side think that it means everything.

The fact remains, Mr. Speaker, we are not ~iving our people the opportunity to engage in productive and worthwhile work. We are not~ Thousands and thousands of 111e<,foundlanders are not getting the opportunity to participate :J.n the economy of this Province. Not only is that a drag upon our public expenditure in that we are required to spend $60 million, or $70 million or $80 million a year helping those people. I am not talking about the people who are 1you know, widows, or who are not able to work. I am talking about people who are able to vlork and who want to work.

Not only are we doing that but we are losing the value of their production. And any government that is concerned at all about this Province should be concerned with that central fact and should be making plans to deal with it. ~·r. Speal'er, I just want to ask the government for a few simple statements. The !linister of Finance might be able to help us. I want to know where the five year projections are. We used to hear a great deal from this government - Hr. Speaker, I do not begrudge the gentleman from Twillingate (nr. Smallwood) the right to speak.

He is very fond of telling us he is always in the House and verv fond of pointing out that everybody else is not always in the House. Well,that is true. But, ~!r. Speaker, I have listened for five or ten minutes to him and he has a very effective voice but if he wishes to carry on a conversation I Pould ask,please,if he could do me and the House the courtesy of carrying it on outside the Chamber, or - Jffi. SMALLWOOD: I apologize to the hon. gentleman. I most assuredly did not intend him either to hear the ~"ords or even to hear my voice. I certainly 2652

>farch 9, 197 6 Tape No. 1012 NM- 2 r~T'. Sf-'ALLHOOD: had no intention or desire to interrupt the flow of his speech, not at all,and I apologize to him and in talking to my collea ·gue here I will lower my voice in the hope that he will not hear even any sound coming from me. But let me assure him that he does not utter a word even while I am talking that I do not hear. PR. NEARY: Those are Liberal members who are absent. r'R . ROBE TS: }lr. Speaker, I thank the hon. gentleman. There is no need for any apology. Let me say where all the Liberal members are. }ffi.. NEARY: Yes, where are they? ~~.

ROBERTS: Let me go through them now. The lady from St. Georges (}~s. Mcisaac) is at home recovering from surgery, rather a good reason for not being in the House of Assembly. The gentleman from Windsor - Buchans ("r. Flight) is in the Come By Chance area today about the public business a~ we will hear in due course. The gentleman from Eagle River (Mr. Strachan) is in Scotland with a delegation of Inuit at their request, their invitation, looking into the offshore oil development in that area. The member for Burin- Placenti4 (MI. Canning) is at home with influenza and is quite ill.

The gentleman for Trinity - Bay de Verde (Hr. Rowe) is in Toronto these last few weeks with his infant son who has been receiving medical care at the Hospital for Sick Children,and I am delighted to report that progress has been substantial and a good result, but the gentleman from Trinity - Bay de Verde (}lr. ll.owe) having weathered that storm is now at home under the weather of influenza. The gentleman for Terra Nova (Yr. Lush) is in the Come By Chance area about public business. The gentleman from Bay Verte - White Bay (Mr. Rideout) is at home with the 'flu. The gentleman from Burgee - Bay d'Espoir (Hr.

Simmons) is in the r:ome lly rhance area,as I will be shortly. The gentleman from Lewisportc (}1r. 1olhite) has stepped out for a minute, and the other members of our caucus are present. So that is where they all are. And I might now start to ask where all the government members are. Some are about the public business, some are out having a cup of coffee or a cigarette or whatever peculiar vice they happen to indulge in during their sessions in the Common Room. A number of others I know are probably 2653

J.larch 9, 1976 Tape No. 1012 m-< - 3 ~'R. !!0BERTS: home ill. ~1e gentleman from Humber East (Dr. Farrell) is in Arizona 1vhere he has gone for medical reasons. ~··1e all hope he gets very !'1uch better very !]tticltly. I do not know - the Hinister of Finance ,,,as ahsent yesterday, I think with the 1 flu, but he seems to have beaten back the bug today. ~~ . DOODY: ~o t really. MR. ROBERTS : Well he has come in to infect some of his colleagues and he is speaking to the ninister of Health and he is going to give thr "ini.ster of flealth the benefit of his experience.

And the gentleman from Exploits (}~r. l!ulrooney) of course,Your Honour,is temporaily absent from the Chamber but we expect him to return once the l'inistry get up the nerve to call the by-election and let the people in that district take their stand as t~ whom they wish. So that is where all the Liberal members are and it is well they are ~~here they are because they are all doing the public service and doing it well. Now, Sir, v1hat I was saying is that I would ask the }~inister of Finance if he would let us have some of the five year projections.

He used to hear about •a five year plan and a four year plan. }ffi.. DOODY: A great leap forward, MR. ROBERTS: Well, the hon. gentleman may have called it a great leap fon:1ard _. I would have called it a great straddle forward in view of - not his performance,because he is quite new to this happy portfolio. His predecessor met the fate he deserved at the hands of the electorate last September, through the willing agency of my friend and colleague from Fortune - Hermitage (}'r. l.Jinsor), but you know we have never had any indication 2654

~larch 9, 197t'i, Tape 1013, Page 1 -- apb "IR. ROBERTS: from the Ministry where we are going, of what they can see. Now I know there are five year projections and I can imagine what is in them. But I should not have to. The Ministry should come before the house and say, "Here is what we can see. Can we see the iebt r,oing up, and up, and up? Can we sustain the debt going up, and up, and up? ~~at do we see in taxes? What do we see in revenues? Hhat do we see in eXPenditures?" Or are we going to have budget after budget such as we saw last Fall?

A~shoddy production coming in as it did on the heels of what amounts to a mass misleading of the people of this Province. Well let us have those five year projections, or the four year projections or whatever term the mandarins of the Treasury Board and of the Finance Department are currently using in their looks forward in their advice to the Ministry. Let us be told how temporary restraints are. We live in a strange world, Mr. Speaker. We are told things are very, very bad.

Things are restrained and we have no money and yet we discover last year,according to the public accounts tabled today,$160,000 was spent on official entertaining - $9,000 roughly by the Premier, another $6,000 for the dining room here in Confederation Building - no doubt all well spent and I hope truly enjoyed and I hope none of it was for Tory caucuses at the Act III because we have been down that road before. Mr. Speaker, is that an example of restraint to the people of this Province? The Minister of Energy yesterday told us the government are poing to be having smaller cars.

A good thin~, because they use less energy. I would hope that that great iron monster that parks down in the Premier's lot - I do not know whether it is a Chrysler or Lincoln Continental or something - which, Mr. Speaker, reminds me of the sort of conveyance which the gentleman from Harbour r.race (Mr. Young) uses in his professional work. You know, a one-wav ride. Hut, I mean, is that an example of our restraints? 2655

'larch o, 1976, Tape 1013, Page 2 -- apb I do not think it is. It is a very minor point perhaps,but very revealin g . Very revealing, Mr. Speaker, because the people of this Province can look and see what example we have srt and , I think, in that sense it is very important. :-tr. Speaker, I want to know how much we can spend in this Province in the years to come. Hhat sort of level of exepnditnre? -· Now I realize the bud~ets will tell us in detail but I am not talkin~ about the annual budgets I am talkin~ about the ~lobal amounts that we as a soc iety or as an economy can afford for such thinp:s as roads and hosoitals 265 6

March 9, 1976 Tape no. 1014 Page 1 - mw Mr. Roberts. and schools and municipal developments. Can we afford the sort of programme to which we have become accustomed? Last Fall the ministry and their spokesmen went around the Province. There must have been $100 million worth of hospitals under promise, and that is a lot. It might not be a lot to Mr. Broadbent who, in the Parliament of Canada, is used to dealing in figures of billions of dollars, but in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, in the governmental process of this Province, that is a great deal of money.

It is probably as much as we have spent on hospitals altogether in the last ten years on capital account, and there was going to be a new hospital down in Happy Valley. They put the bon. the present member for Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie) up·;on the line and he made that commitment in good faith and, of course, the moment he got elected they pulled the platform out from under him. There was going to be a hospital in Channel, and nothing has happened there. There was going to be a new hospital in Placentia. There was going to be a new one in Clarenville, and indeed we were told this.

The then Minister of Public: Works said in the Rouse that work was going ahead, construction was to begin in the Spring, and he indicated the Spring of 1975, and it may be the Spring of about 1980 the way things are going now. We were going to have a new hospital on the Burin Peninsula, and I am told the platform is still there, up at Salt Pond in Burin, still there all set for the grand official start of construction.

Well now the point I am making is not just that the government shamefully misled the people of this Province, which they di~ the point I am making is that I want some indication from the government whether we can afford this sort of programme .. ! have my own thoughts but I do not have access to the officials. I do not have access to the advice which is given to the ministry. Can we afford them? I know we need them, and I believe we must have them. Can we 2657

March 9, 1976 Tape no. 1014 Page 2 - lllW Mr. Robe rts. afford them? Can we find the $120 million? What about the polytechnic? ~1at about the university? The university are crying on every hand that they have not got enough money to enable them to build the buildings they must have to do their job. I think their complaint has merit insofar as it goes, and if you have only tunnel vision, if you look only at the university, their plea must carry the day. Mr. Speaker, where does it fit into the overall _ pro~pective?

I think it is time that the government of this Province let the people of this Province know, told us what we can afford. How long can we go on at the present level? Can we go on indefinitely at the present level? People have a right to know. The people down in Happy Valley will never again believe this government when they talk of hospitals. They had a firm assurance that work would begin - a big delegation came in to see the Premier - a firm assurance that work would begin this year and then after the election, bingo! Game over!

Now they are going to close that hospital, the Paddon one, or make it an outpatients' facility, and move up to a thirty year old hospital on the base, which I would suggest to the }linister of Health is a very retrograde and a very backward step. Mr. Speaker, the government of this Province had a duty to tell the people of this Province where we stand and where we are going. . That is one of the reasons we put down this amendment. If the government have plans, Sir, now is the time to reveal them. They are over the hUIIIp of the election. It will be a year o.r two or three before they face their makers.

In the meantime all they have to worry about are their consciences. Now is the time for them to reveal their plans. lVhat do they propose? They have had access to all the figures. They have got all the officials ~ · Is it 28,000 people on the public service payroll of this Province, 28,000 out of a work force of 145,000 or 150,000 or 155,000 employed? It is about a sixth, a seventh, a fifth, i\N HON . MEMHEP.: Not employed? HR. ROBERTS: Not employed, not employed, no. I said the work force employed. The work force goes up and down. I had some figures here on tile current one. It is 170,000 or 175,000.

It drops down in the Winter 2658

Harch 9, 1976 Tape no. 1014 Page 3 - lDW M.r. Roberts. when people realize they have no chance of finding work and it goes back up again in the Summer when people come into the ~rk force. The ~rk force at present is 161,000 by the offical figures in Uecember. The public service payroll is 30,000 out of that, and that is a little under 20%, a little under a fifth. MR. SMALLWOOD: That 13 not just regular civil servants. ~m . ROBERTS: that is just the provinc ial. 2659

t1arch 9, 197f;, Tan~ l'llS, l'age "fR. ROBERTS: lve are i.ncl uding the teachers and the hospitals but they ;n·e all naid out of the nrovincial treasury as the hon. Jr.E'ntleman full well knows and would ap,ree. Mr. Speaker, the J!;ovemment have access to . all that infor.mation, a.ll that advice, They have got some very high nriced talent down there in the Confederation Building. They have got some good talent. 'fR. SHALUIOOD: Yes, they have excellent employees.

As the federal employees of all kinds would be included in the work force it would he interestinp, to know how many there are besides the 7,000 federal civi.l servants and the OW. ann the CNT and the airports and the marine services. I wonder what would be the grand total number of federal civil servants to be added to the 30,000 or 28,000 provincial employees forminr, part of the overall labour force of the l'rovince? It would have to he a fascinating figure. lfR. ROBF.RTS: Mr. Speaker, I have no idea. It 1.rould be an interesting figure and nerhans the Rentleman from Twillingate (~r.

Smallwood) could make that his fi42th question or whatever it is and maybe the M.inister of Manpower could ask his officials to get that infonnation. It should he fairly readily available. The point is that the government have access to this vast nool of talent. They must have some plans. They must have some indication. 1-lell, let them reveal it, let them make it public. This was the government which came into office with the great talk of planning, and doing the right thing and being rational as if somehow all that had been done before was not planned, was not rati.ona] and was not right.

Now after four years in office, Sir, ~7e have not seen one ounce of planning publicly. God knows what may have r.one on behind closed doors, but we can only _judgE' on what we know, on what we see here in the House and what we read published by the government. ~- - SMALLWOOD: What happened to the task forces? IB MR. RORF.RTS: Oh, all the task forces, Mr. Speaker, laboured and some of them nroduced reports and some did not, and only one report has been made public and that was the forestry one. As far as I know only one 2660

Harch 9, 197(,, Tape 1015, Page 2 IB MR. ROBERTS: or two have been acted on. We do not know. The government have made no more planning. Their policy, I fear, has been one of lurchin~ from expediency to expediency, from crisis to crisis, trying to get over the difficulties which they rightly foresaw in the election. Anythin?, to get through the election last year! They produced a budget which would not stand up under examination and scrutiny. They made promises, like, well like, manna in the desert after fortv days of wandering without food. You know, what they did everybody in Newfoundland knows.

They will not get away with it again. They may try it again but they will not get away with it again. MR. SMALL>roOD: I am sorry to interrupt so often but I am only tryin~ to help the argument along. These task forces - a government appoints a sort of royal commission or some kind of public body to examine a ~uestion and make a report which is nromptly tabled, but a government also appoints a task force to gather material and to offer advice to the government within the limited circles of the government. Can the hen.

Leader of the Opposition tell me if those task forces were of one or the other of these two categories because you cannot blame them for not publishing the reports of a task force if it were not intended that they should be made public? ~IR. nonnv: They were never meant to be public. MR. ROTlF.RTS: Mr. Speaker, they were not royal commissions in the sense they were not commissions under the Public Enquiries Act. They were .1oint federal-provincial working documents. While the Minister of Finance say they were never public that is true as a statement of fact, I would point out that the ministry boasted of them.

The ministry said, this is our great new leap forward. Indeed I can remember, will never forget the Premier being down on the eight floor and lookinr, out into the television cameras saying that the greatest moment since Confederation came when he announced the restructuring. I think he believed it. I mean that is the sad and the nathetic part of it, he believed that he had achieved somethin~. Of Course all we did was add about four extra ministers, seventeen extra executive assistants and a couple of hundred thousand dollars a vear 2661

";u:-ch Q, 1976 Tar~ 1015 to the pul~] i c s!'rvice payroll. It cJ-oangPc! the n;:uucs of some (lepartments too. Hr.. I'OUERTS: \Jell , l'r . Speaker, we l'lay hav~ chanr,ed the names of soll'e c!epartments and t~e may not. }'P . NEAT'Y: He pensione<l off n few rleputy ministers. ~fP . ROBEPTS : ~Tell, the hon. member for Lal'oiJ e (l•-c. Neary) says we clicl pension off a fet< rleputy ministe rs, tbe ~olclen handshake, I thinK, and there are more to come. I believe there are more to col'le. But the fact remains that the ministry talked a great deal about these task forc e reports .

They have not made them public, with one exception anc that is the task force on forestry which was tablecl in an e~itec version although the full version very quickly became public. nnJy a few pages had been deleted. By the way,in caRe the ~~ nister of Finan ce . 266 2 IB-3

Tape ~To. 1016 NM- 1 '~P. l'!lllERTS: is looking at me, I did not make it public. I am not even sure I kno~· who did, although I could take a guess at who did. But the fact remains, Sir, that this government either have ignored those task force reports or alternatively have not received them, :md I ~mnder how many have been received, Did the education one ever come in? 1'1'. f\ClODY: No.

"'"I' • 1'J1BERTS: No, the education one has - A.~ l!(lN. ~1D'13ER: He have got it. \.Te have got it. >m ROBERTS: The education one has come in? ''1'. noonY: Yes but after the nasty way you acted over the forestry report wr decided not to table it . ! IT!.. r:nBEl'TS: There you are.

The hon. gentleman may not make them public, Sj r, 1,ut when he goes out _of office, be it a year or two or three, and it will not be longer than that, they ~•ill be made public and then everybody can have a look at them and we can judge the record of the present administratton against their pretences and their pretentions and we will let the facts speaY for themselves. "r. Speal,er, in the meantime all He can do is judge them by "'hat thry say anrl Phat they do, and if the bon. the ~intster of Finance would 1 iJ·e me to r;o into a critical debate I would be delighted to.

I could see a ] ot of things ~vhich need to be said about the performance of tht> aclm:lnistration of Fh1ch he is a leading light, very much a governing nnrl .1. dominating and a driving figure, indeed together with the J'inister F i thnut Portfolio, and the "inister of !·!ines and F.nergy, there is no douhr th<' ''in5ster of Finance is what is keeping this present crowd p.oin~, :mcJ T ,.rould think that he should take that as a compliment hecause j t ts as complimentary as anything that will be said to him by anybody "n t'lis Prcwi .nce toclay. 1'he ~act remains, }'r.

Speaker, that the ministry prom1 !<P_d much And dt;>1 1verccl nothing and all I am sayinp: to them. now in this amenclment is let them produce, let them lay on the table of the Rouse, 1 et tl~cm JT>akc puhl j_c, if they do not ~~ant to table the reports let them indicate vhat 1vas in it. But they ignored the Task Force on Ener~ l'eport. There 1-:ns no recommendation in there that the Churchill Falls 2663

"arch '.1, 1971i Tape No. 1016 NI-l" - 2 ~'R. ROBERTS: he bought out by the Province, be taken over, be nationalized, be purchased, and yet they did it. And now we are in the soup and in the worse kind of financial mess and it is going to get worse. Let me talk about forestry, the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture is here. We had the Task Force Report on Forestry. he was not the minister at the time.

He is guiltless in that sense - we were going to get a great leap forward in forestry and then we had the Rural Development Authority and it was going to be the answer to all of our prayers and the combination of the RnA's sawmilling activities and one tr.ing and another • "e ~rere going to have a great new world in forestry. But where are ~~e today? On every hand the forestry issue is in very real trouble. The RDA~as far as 1 know, have lost eve·ry dollar they lent to the sawmilling sector.

They may not have admitted it yet, but I will bet that out of what - if they have given 1,000 loans, 800 of them have gone sour or are sour if anybody bothered to check up on them. Not because people did, as did a gentleman down in, I think it was Parsons Point, in the North side of Bona vista Bay, some~rhere along the North side,who took his money from 'RDA and promptly went to Toronto on it. That is not what has happened to most of them. lJhat has happened is that they have been put into a situation where they could not possibly make a go of it, so 'the government have lost that money.

We do not even have any permanent jobs or even any semi­ permanent jobs to show as a result. l'r. Speaker, the other parts of the forestry industry, the great sawmilling, we are told there ~muld he one at Roddickton. That is going. The one at Ha•.•kes Bay is not operating, a dispute between the operators, the owners, the Lundrigan's firm on one hand and on the other hand the Bowaters people who have the woods limits. The one do~m in Bay d'Espoir, Ralland, Ed Ralph and Ernie Strickland is - AN HON. 1'E1'-raER. : Ralph is out cf it. I!R. ROBERTS: Is !fr. Ralph out of it?

Well I only knO'II' it was called Ralland Enterprises. I think that was an amalgam of 1-l"r. Ed. Ralph's name arid ~lr. F:rnie Strickland's name, and they ~~ ere the two major 2664

''arch ~, 1C>71\ Tape No. 1016 forces in it . Well I gather that is ln very ~haky ftnancial position. There is no secret about it . There have been briefs prese nted and so forth. The one in Gambo, on the foot of Cambo Pond, 1'4t. ~~~l' flsmond, Payo Enterprises I think it is called, again,you know,!fy . "t". F.ds;ar natrd in r.ander, Sir, an entrepreneur of very lon~t standing record ond the finest kind of man, but I think his whole sawmilling ~ntcrp r ise is just on the verge. And these are not the push benches . Th~sc arc- t'lc mot!ern ones ·~e t.rere told about.

These are the big neY v~tures, wit~ ~everal hundred thousand or even nillions of dollars i~ cap1tnl f~vPst~ent and ~roducing an intep,rated product, pt"oducing chips nrd p t"oduc:'~n r lW'Ihl!r and you knw using all of the product of th1 (orerts . 266 5

Narch 9, 1976 Tape 1017 PK - 1 Hr. Rg~ in the forestry? Hhat is gojng to be done to help these people? Anything? Should the govermnent guarantee loans against inventory? Thl!t is one sugr;estion that has been made. The government in the election year fever announced that they were going to ensure that all lumber used in government projects was made here in Newfoundland. Of course, that has been exposed. The tenders do not require that. And little enough lumber is used anyway by the government in their purchases.

It is not something of which the government purchase a great deal, unless you talk of the housing programmes affected by CHTIC and hy our own NLB:C. Nr. Speaker, you knm<, where are we going in the forestry industry? \·/hat is going to be done? What plans does the minister have? What about the damage to our forests with the various insect infestation? Hhat is going to be done about those? Should anything be done? AN HON . 'MENBER: What we are doing now. MR. ROBERTS: The han. gentleman says, what we are doing now. We have lost a lot of forest in the last couple of years.

The han. gentl eman says ue are going to go in and cut them as fast as we can, but, Sir, there may be nobody to cut, there may be nobody to cut that tolood. Liner board are overstocked with wood, J ayin g off people in I.e t~ i s porte di s trict. And ~fr. Ingram,the Presi dent, has announced that the y are goinr, to he lay ing off their otm woocls cutters, camps in t he llay St. Geo rr;e area t•ill not be reopened. In my own area,Main ~rook, and in the area immediately to the south and the Roddickton area, the Linerboard are cutting back on their production.

Bowaters who have announced they are staying in Newfoundland -which was a good thing. I do not know how much news it is, but it is a good thing any way;- what are they going to be cutting this year? They are not going to be cutting a great deal in Northern Newfoundland. They are not going to be cutting in the Hawkes Bay ?.rea unless they can make arr-angement ' with Lundrigan' s, and I gather they are miles apart on the price, Mr. Speaker. 266~

March 9, 1976 Tape 1017 PK - 2 Hr. Roberts: You know, all I want to know is what plans the ministry have? !.-'hat they can visualize', and what we have to do to achieve it? That is all. It is not much to ask. A ten minute speech by the minister, a speech which he thought thorough and was willing to give information could make it perfectly clear. That is ~Jl. So I ;}(luld ask him to do it. I would ask him what can be <lor,<· with i"urthe>r dev'cJopment. He have heard for years alJOut furniture here, ~aklng furniture or furniture compotents in this Province. What :1hout something as simple as barrels?

You know, everybody has been talking nl>out barrels for several hundred years. Herting barrels, we are using a couple of hundred thousands a year,I am told. The herring fishery is undergoing a bit of an upsurge. I am told all of the barrels are imported except there is a man in Little Bay Islands ~ir. George Strong, George and Greta Strong - Jones, I am sorry, yes. llolp Strong - but they make barrels there, they have a cooperage there, and a very, you know, again they are entrepreneurs. The operation is on a large scale. iiJ; .

Stii\LLV.'OOD : Do they us e hardwood or softwood? ~ 11~ • ROBERTS: They use soft~.'ood barrels. But, you know, must we in,rort our barrels? I do not know. I kn~7 that the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation are doing a study on it. I would hav<' thougl1t that we would have enough .studies on barrels by now .• You !mow, we could barrel t~e studies we have. But will the minister tell us now what we can do with our wood.

Are we condemned as we now seem to be only to produce trees ·for pulp and then paper, or craft or newsprint as the case may be, on the one hand, and on the other hand some of the rougher grades of lumber, not even the big timber hut the match lumber and what used to be called plowed and tongue, and tongue and groove, I think it is now called, two by four's, three by six's. ~l o"' what can we do with our forestry resources? \-J e :.ave heard again sweepin.~. generalizations. llhen the present :linister of Manpower (Mr. ~!aynard) was the /!.in ister of Forestry he stood here in the House and he told us it was going to be like the new Jerusalem when the new Forestry Act went 2667

iiarch 9, 1976 Tape 1017 PK - 3 Hr. Roberts: through, and it was going to be like the Elysian Fields. Well I want to know \<hat has happened, and more importantly, because I think I know what has happened - precious little. I want to kno\v uhere we are goinc? Ho'W many jobs can W£ get? How m,any jobs can we make in this Province by using our forest resources? The l'inister of Forestry, let him do his job and that is how he should do it. And everything I have said about forestry I could s:1y about agriculture.

I was told today, I do not know it to be correct, but it sounds coreect,that there were last year in Newfoundland 140 farmers who grossed more than $10,000 a year. It sounds correct. I mean I have not had a chan.ce to check it out. But I am told there were 140 farmers who grossed $10,000 - some of them may have grossed far more than that. MR. SMALUJOOD : Yes. Gross personal incomes? MR. ROBERTS: Gross personal incomes. I am also told that there are at least that many public servants working in the fannin~?: field, you know, each of them earning more than $10,000 a year. I have not had time to check it out.

It may or may not be correct. It was put to me as a dramatic example of the failure of the government's programme to achieve their end. I think the minister should - whether he looks into my question or not, it is something I am told, and something that, you know, we all hear interesting things from time to time, and I do not pay much attention to them. But I think the minister should look into the agricultural ' field. What again does he plan? I would like to know. I am very 2668

'· !arc~ <), ] ou;. HR. ROTlfRTS: Tape lrllR RH - 1 intP.restecl in kncn;rinp;. ~lr. Speaker, I am 1ust touc~inp; nn a nul'lhPr of f:lclds. Fe will have a ~reat deal of opportunity to tall~ about them, hut I 'mnt to touch on one or two others. I do not p_ropose to p;o into the energy thin~ in detail. l>ie had an extensive debate before Christman on the Lower Churchill. ~e have heard nothing since except the continuing reports which come to me of the Hydro's winding down of the Churchill nroiect. I was down in the Labrador portion of my constituency early in February.

The word there is that the tunnel project has been put off for at least twelve months. Now the further word within the last <lay or so is that it is going to be put off a further twelve months at least insofar as the T~abrador side is concerned. The rumor continues to spread. The concern is there. The Hydro are unable or unwilling to give me any information about it. Nobody seems to know ~1hat is happening. Pel] here we are on the month of }1arch. l>)e are three months into the six month period in which ~•e were going to spend $55 million.

I would ask the ninister or one of his colleagues to make a very full and a frank report on that and an explanation. I want to know what the ~overnment intend to do >1i th the enercy. In all the debate before Christmas nobody ever anst·Tered that <Juestion. ""e still keep hearing talk about almninum plants and we have heard mor·e of that now· following the great European jaunt. Jlut I think the gentleman from St. John 1 s East and I are probably in the same camp on this one. Fe do not often inhabit the same polHical field. P.ut I think our views are probably much the same on this.

I would like to know exactly what is involved and what· is in it for the Province