Manitoba Hansard — 22 November 1988 (Sitting 82A, 34th Legislature, 1st Session)

34-1-82a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 First Session - Thirty-Fourth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 37 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XXXVII No. 82A - 1:30 p.m., TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 22, 1988. ISSN 0542-5492 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Manitoba

NAME ALCOCK,Reg ANGUS, John ASHTON, Steve BURRELL, Parker CARR,James CARSTAIRS, Sharon CHARLES, Gwen CHEEMA, Gulzar CHORNOPYSKI, William CONNER Y, Edward Hon. COWAN,Jay CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DOER,Gary DOWNEY, James Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DRIEDGER, Herold, L. DUCHARME, Gerald, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Laurie EVANS, Leonard FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen Hon. GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold GRAY, Avis HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward A. HEMPHILL, Maureen KOZAK, Richard, J. LAMOUREUX, Kevin, M.

MALOWAY, Jim MANDRAKE, Ed MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. McCRAE, James Hon. MINENKO, Mark MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fourth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation CONSTITUENCY Os borne St. Norbert Thompson Swan River Fort Rouge River Heights Selkirk Kildonan Burrows Portage la Prairie Churchill Ste. Rose du Lac Roblin -Russell Concordia Arthur Emerson Niakwa Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Fort Garry Brandon East Tuxedo Vir den St.

Boniface Minn edosa Ellice Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Gimli Logan Transcona lnkster Elmwood Assiniboia Morris Brandon West Seven Oaks MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. Rossmere OLESON, Charlotte Hon. Gladstone ORCHARD, Donald Hon. Pembina PANKRATZ, Helmut La Verendrye PATT ERSON, Allan Radisson PENNER, Jack, Hon. Rhineland PLOHMAN, John Dauphin PRAZNIK, Darren Lac du Bonnet ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Turtle Mountain ROCH, Gilles Springfield ROSE, Bob St. Vital STORIE, Jerry Flin Flon TAYLOR, Harold Wolseley URUSKI, Bill lnterlake WASYLYCIA-LEIS, Judy St.

Johns YEO, lva Sturgeon Creek PARTY LIBERAL LIBERAL NDP PC LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC LIBERAL PC LIBERAL PC PC LIBERAL NDP PC PC LIBERAL PC LIBERAL PC NDP NDP PC NDP LIBERAL LIBERAL NDP LIBERAL PC PC LIBERAL PC PC PC PC PC LIBERAL PC NDP PC PC LIBERAL LIBERAL NDP LIBERAL NDP NDP LIBERAL

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, November 22, 1988. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PR AYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mr. Harold Taylor (Wolseley): I beg to present the petition of the Royal Winnipeg Rifles Foundation, praying for the passing of

an Act to Amend

an Act to Incorporate the Royal Winn ipeg Rifles Foundation. Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): "The Petition of the undersigned, the Royal Winnip eg Rifles Foundation hum bly showeth tha t the Royal Win ni peg Rifle s Foundation was incorpo rated by

Chapter 53, Statutes of Manitoba, 1986/87. "That it is desired to amend the said Act to repeal and substitute

Section 3(1)(

c) thereof to reduce the scope of the objects of the Foundation and to repeal subsections (

d) and (

e) of Subs ection 1 of

Section 3. "That the requested amendments are to qualify the Foundation as a charity under the In come Tax Act (Canada). "Wherefor your petitioner humbly prays that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to pass

an Act for the purposes mentioned above. "And as in duty bound your petitioner will ever pray." MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): I would like to table Supplementary Estim ates information, 19 88-89 Revenue Estima tes for all the departments of Government. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr. Speaker: Prior to oral questions, may I direct the attention of Honourable Members to the gallery, where we have from the Neepawa Collegiate sixty Grade XI students under the di rection of Wayne Hollier.

This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Minis ter of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Cummings). On behalf of all Honourable Members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Phase Two Audit Arts Organization Mr. Jam es Carr (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker , my question is to the Min ister of Finance (Mr. Man ness). On October 26, in response to a question about the Phase 2 audit asked by the Member for Osborne (Mr. 3269 Alcock), the Min ister of Finance downplayed his concern about the role of voluntary boards in our communit y.

The Minis ter told us it was "a very minor aspect of the audit." Why then has this Government hir ed a consultant to question commun ity-based arts groups on the effect iveness of their boards? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): As I ind icated to the Member in my response to his question at that time, the Government of Manitoba is very int erested in knowing the effe ctiveness of programs that are delivered by a whole host of community organizations and entities.

The Government of the Day was very in terested in knowing as to whether or not accountability was in place with respect to the delivery of those services, plus the handling of Government finances. The Government of the Day was mandated by the people of this province, April 26, to ask those questions and to come up with a better understanding. That was the essence of the Phase 2 audits and that is what is being put into place with the activities of all our consultants. Questionnaires Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): With a supplementary question to the Min ister of Finance (Mr.

Mann ess), why is it then that these questionnair es were sent to the mana gers, the executive dir ectors of th ese organizations, and not to the boards themselves? So we have a situation where employees hired by these boards are asked to evaluate them. Could the Min ister explain why? • (13 35) Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr.

Speaker , we entered into a cont ract with Prairie Research Associates to be specific, asking them by way of the terms of reference which were given to the Members of this House in an open fashion, very general terms of reference embodying the thr€e general areas that I have just enun ciated to the Member. The firm, Prairie Research Associates, being one of the successful tenderers, presented to us a methodology whereby they would go to the communi ty and seek certain information.

We were not aware indeed the Government was not aware that Prairie Research Associates was going to dir ect qu estionnair es specifically to management. I think it probably would have been better had they also directed those to boards. Questionnaires Board Members Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): Since the Min ister agrees with us that this kind of questionnaire is more appropriately directed at those who are ultimately accountable to these organizations, will he today tell the consultants to send these questionnair es to the board members not simply those to who they employ?

Tuesday, November 22, 1988 Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Once we have made the agreement with the consultants and once the terms of reference have been put into place and accepted and agreed to and once the contracts have been entered into and the methodologies put into place, we wonder and we question how far it is that we should impos e our wis hes upon the hi red consultants. Nevertheless, I have not had direct contact with Mr. Mason, but I am prepared to talk to him directly and see whether or not that is a preferable course of action. Lottery Assessment Review Availability Mr.

James Carr (Fort Rouge): With a new question to the Minis ter of Culture, Heritage and Recreation (Mrs. Mi tchelson), again on the 26th of Octo ber, the Mini ster of Finance (Mr. Man ness) told this House that he was "very concerned about the com plexity of the Department of Culture, Heritage and Recreation." He was concerned because some of the grants come from lottery mon ies and others come from appropriations. Now the former Government established a Lottery Assessment Review to help Min isters come to grips with those complexities. Mr. Speaker, this report is late.

I would like to ask the Min ister when she expects the Needs Assessment Review to be in her possession and when she will then table it in this House? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation): I thank the Member for that question. Phase 11 of the Needs Assessment Report has been distribut ed to the umbrella groups who participated in the Needs Assessment. I met with them, along with the consultants and members of the Lottery Foundation last week, the week before, and ind icated what the process would be.

The consultants along with the umbrella groups are in the process of signing off and ensuring that everything within that report meets the specifica tions, meets the concerns of both sides affe cted. The consultants will be coming forward with recommendations to Government in the next week or so. Those recommendations will then be looked at. We will be looking at implementing them at that time. Lottery Revenues Lower Gambling Receipts Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): We would like to know what this Government's policy is.

We see now that lottery revenues are flatten ing out and they are increasing at a much smaller rate than they have over the past 10 years. Over this numb er of years, more and more cultural and sporting organizations have developed a dependency on lottery revenues. What is this Min ister's policy? How does she intend to cushion those groups against lowered gambling receipts in the Province of Manitoba? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation): That will be explained when we come forward with our im plementation of the Needs Assessment and our policy regarding lotteries.

If you want to discuss it in a little more detail, we will be into Estima tes, I am told, possibly by this evening or Thursday at the latest. We will have every opportunity to debate and discuss those issues. Distribution Policy Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): A final supplementary to the Min ister of Culture, and I look forward to questioning her in some detail during the Estimate process. Is it this Government's policy, and I cannot make it any simpler than this, to return funding to cultural and sporting organizations in Manitoba to the security of the tax base? Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation): 1 had indi cated, I think, in the answer that 1 just gave that our policy regarding distribution of lotteries will be formu lated as a result of the Needs Assessment. When that is done and when our policy is ready as a result of that study, we will be letting the Members opposite kn ow. *

(1340) Arts Organizations Questionnaires Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): I am rather astounded that the Mini ster of Finance (Mr. Manne ss) would not immedia tely want to withd raw the inappr opriate questions that are presently before the arts organizations in the questionnaire that has been described in the media and certainly has come to our attention. My question is to the Minis ter of Culture, Heritage and Recreation (Mrs. Mitchelson), dealing with this questionnaire that has been forwarded.

Does the Minis ter think it is appropriate that the executive di rector, a person who is hired and fired by a board of directors, a voluntary board of directors, would be asked about the method by which the boards are selected and identified in terms of the qualifications of those board members? Is that an appropriate question to ask an executive director of a voluntary board of directors and, if not, would they please order the consulting firm to withd raw this poll and this questionnaire with that ina ppropriate question? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr.

Speaker, obviously the Leader of the NDP is hard pressed for question material today. I have answered that question in full measure just previously. As I have indi cated earlie r, no Government department was involved in the development of the questionnair e, the general questionnaire that was presented to a number of volunteer boards. We have some concern with some of the wording that is within it but, again, we were not asked to give our final stamp to the final draft. We have some concerns and we will be addressing them with the consultant. 3270

Tuesday, November 22, 1988 Inappropriate Questionnaire Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Again the Minister does not answer the question, whether the questions are inappr opriate or not and whether he will ask the firm that he has hi red through taxpayers' money that he is accountable for to withdraw the questions. Does the Mini ster feel, the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation (Mrs. Mitchelson) or the Mi n ister of Financ e (Mr.

Manness) feel it is appropriate for the executive director of an organization of voluntary-a board of directors organization, an executive director who is hired and fired by that organization, to make comments on the financial accountability of the people, the board of directors who are actually his or her employer? Does the Min ister of Finance think that is an appropriate question to ask an executive director, and would the Mini ster of Finance not issue instructions for the polling firm to withd raw that inappr opriate question? Hon.

Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): The question is repeated again, and again I offer the answer that I did earlier. Mr. Speaker, I will talk to Mr. Mason later today. I just had an opportunity late yesterday to have a letter come to me. There are pages of questions, many of them good, I am sure many of them that would be supportable by the Leader of the NDP (Mr. Doer) but nevertheless, as I have ind icated in an earlier response, I would ask Mr. Mason whether he would give consideration to directing this questionnaire to a wider scale, to a wider scope, and in deed directing it to boards of directors. Mr.

Doer: Yes, in terms of the questions within the questionnaire, again we are hearing from the Min ister of Finance (Mr. Man ness) that they will review it with the pollster. The Min ister of Finance is ind eed the employer in terms of the contract of this questionnaire and what we want from the Minis ter of Finance is an acknowledgement that this is ina ppropriate to send this to an executive director who is hi red and fired by a voluntary board of directors, to ask that same executive director to evaluate the very many items that they are asked to do in this questionna ire.

I would ask the Min ister of Finance to give the people of Manitoba and the voluntary organizations and the executive directors who have been put in an absolutely awkward position, to ask the Min ister of Finance to get the polling company that he has hired to reword this question and redirect it in a much more appropriate way, rather than this divide and conquer way that has been issued by the Government. Mr. Manness: Why does the Mem ber opposite use that terminology?

In reviewing these questions, indeed as he has, he knows that 80 percent of them deal with funding specifically as between the department and ind eed the agency, and who would be able best to answer those qu estions other than the executive directors? Yes, there is a small component of this that deals specifically with the responsibility of the boards, the volunteer boards, but most of this questionnair e, upwards of 80 percent to 90 percent of it, deals specifically with the day-to-day negotiations and events 3271 between the departments and ind eed the volunteer boards.

Who would be in the best position to answer those questions other than the executive director. So let us put tha t in to perspective, Mr. Speak er, nevertheless tha t item dealing spec ifically with commentary as per the volunteer boards. I think the Member has a point, and I will endeavour to reach Mr. Mason and try to resolve this issue. * (13 45) Mr. Doer: I would hope that the Minis ter will issue a withd rawal motion to the instructions to the polling compan y, and have the questionnaire changed more appropriately in that the executive directors are calling it divisiv e with the board. Gate Funding Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): A final question to the Min ister, our feedback from the arts organizations that received this questionnaire is to say they are in a total state of confusion on terms of questions dealing with gate versus non-gate and, because that has major implications for their funding or their perceived funding, would the Minis ter also review that im portant item with the polling company and have that reworded in a way that arts organizations understand it and can address it intelligently? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr.

Speaker, for the record, I would like to indic ate what the question was in the questionn aire. lt said: "What is the minimum revenue from the gate that should be accepted for appli cation for funding from the Go vernment. By gate, incl ude mem ber' s fees, admissions to performances and showings and all private sources, i.e., other sources of revenue that are available to the association?" I think that is pretty clear and pretty straightfor ward to most of us who would be able to decipher this. So again, if this presents a problem, I will again discuss it in some detail with Mr.

Mason, but I think it is pretty straightforward. I wonder and I question why it is that the Leader of the NDP (Mr. Doer) tries to create a situation of some concern which does not exist. Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. Court Facilities Brandon Development Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Attorney-General (Mr. McCrae). During the Attorney-General's campaign for re-election in April of this year in Brandon, he commit ted him self to improving court facilities in Brandon. Nearly seven months has now gone by since the election.

There is, as yet, no commitment from this Government to do just that. When will the Attorney-General be seeing to the expansion and improvement of these much- needed court facilities in Brandon? Hon. James McCrae (Attorney-General): I will be quite candid with the Honourable Member and tell him that

Tuesday, November 22, 1988 inde ed my platform had much to do with developing facilit ies in Brandon, not only court facilities but other facilities, and not only developing facilities but also putting people to work and creating work. I am pleased to say that as a result of what happened in Canada yesterday, Manitoba will go a long way in creating those jobs and creating the wealth necessary to build the facilities that are vitally needed in many areas of the province, not to mention Brandon, which is badly in need of renovations to its court house. Annou ncements will be made in due course on that issue.

Unified Family Court Rural Expansion Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): lt is funny how "in due course" keeps coming up again and again. The Attorney-General (Mr. McCrae) has mentioned the expansion of facilities. With respect to the expansion of services, the new Queen's Bench Act has recently been passed by this House. I called upon the Attorney General to consider expanding a Un ified Family Court to rural Manitoba and, of course, high on that list would be the City of Brandon. The Attorney-General chose not to take that advice.

My question is, when will the advantages, the well known advantages in this ci ty, of the Uni fied Family Court be extended to the people of rural Manitoba, and then I would presume first on that list would be the people of Brandon? Hon. James McCrae (Attorney-General): I do not remember reading all of the Honourable Member's campaign literature. I do not remember if he talked about expanded court facilities for the City of Brand on in his campaign literature or an an expanded Unified Family Court across the province. lt may very well be, but I recall vividly speaking about an expanded unified court.

But you know, if we are going to expand courts across the province, we have to have proper facilities. For instance, the court house at Min nedosa was in need of repair. The Honourable Member for Ellice (Ms. Gray) did not really think that was something that was necessary for the community of Mi nnedosa. We did, Mr. Speaker. Work is under way- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Member for Ellice, on a point of order. Ms. Avis Gray (EIIice): Yes, a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

As the Attorney-General, I believe, is well aware that the statement I made was in fact, if it were a choice between repairing the court house and foster care, paying foster parents money to care for children, I would choose the children. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. A dispute over the facts is not a point of order. Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Member for Ellice (Ms. Gray) wants to get involved. The fact is funding for foster parents was inc reased.

Funding for potholes mentioned by the Member for Ellice was incr eased and so was funding for the roof of the Minn edosa court house. Some Honourable Members: Hear, hear! * (13 50) Court of Queen's Bench Additional Judge Brandon Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): According to their famous concern for families, I asked the question about the Unified Family Court which was not answered. Let me go on to say that 65 percent of the present Queen's Bench docket approxima tely is family-oriented in Brandon. A second judge is sent out on a regular basis to help Judge Oliphant. My final qu estion to the Attorney-General (Mr.

McCrae) is, will he listen to the members of the Western Bar Association and the people of his own home city and contact his federal counterpart, his new federal counterpart, to arrange for the financing of a second Queen's Bench judge in Brandon, a much needed second judge, and will he then refer this matter to the new Man itoba Selection Committee for the appointment of judges? Hon. James McCrae (Attorney-General): Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to tell the Honourable Member that not only have I had contact with my former federal counterpart, but I fully intend to have frequent contacts with my future federal counterpart.

I have had many, many discussions with Associate Chief Justice Hamilton with respect to Family Court matters in the Provinc e of Mani toba, discussions with Chief Justice Hewak, discussions with the Manitoba Bar Association, and of course representatives of the Western Bar almost every weekend when I return to my home constituency of Brandon, and I have the opportunity to discuss court house expansion, to discuss backlogs, to discuss uni fied Family Court extension. All of these things are under active consideration by my department.

I am very pleased with the progress we have been able to make and the consultative process has been very effective and I think very much appreciated, certainly by myself and I hope by those with whom I have been consulting. Unemployed Help Centre Funding Restoration Ms. Avis Gray (EIIice): My question is for the Minis ter responsible for Economic Security and Emplo yment Services (Mrs. Oleson). This Min ister has again made the decision to cut yet another community service and that is the funding for the Unemp loyed Help Centre in Brandon and in Winnipeg. Eighty-nine percent of the cases, Mr.

Speaker, referred to the centre in Brandon have successfully been resolved so that individuals who are due unemployment insurance had been able to receive that assistance. Fifteen hundred people have 3272

Tuesday, November 22, 1988 not had to rely on welfare assistance because of the help from this centre. My question to the Mini ster is, will this Mini ster stand up for the people of Manitoba, particularly in rural Ma nitoba, and agree to provide funding to the Unem ployed Help Centre in Brandon? Hon.

Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Employment Services and Economic Security): I had indica ted in the House before with questions on that same topic that the un empl oyment in surance is a federal jurisdiction, and that we do not feel that it is appropriate to fund something that is a direct responsibility of the federal Government. Referrals Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Ellice, with a supplementary question. Ms. Avis Gray (EIIice): This Minister has also ind icated that there were three positions that were in place for Unemplo yment In surance Commis sion and this is why they would not fund.

These three positions have been in place since April. If these positions are so effe ctive, could the Min ister tell us why the Brandon Unemp loyed Help Centre continues to receive referrals from rural MLAs, from the MP from Brandon-Souris, the Min ister of Agriculture and the Min ister of Community Services' own constitue ncy. Why are you continuing to give referrals to the Brandon Unemp loyed Help Centre if these three positions with the federal Government are so effect ive? Hon .

Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Employment Services and Economic Security): I have made no referrals that I am aware of in the last while to the Unemplo yed Help Centre but there are four positions that were put in place, three in Winnipeg and one in Brandon to help deal with unemployment insurance. As I will repeat to the Member, unemployment insurance is a federal responsibil ity. Service Evaluation Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Ellice, with a final supplementary question. Ms. Avis Gray (EIIice): The Unemp loyed Help Centre met with the Minis ter last week and they had a simple, reasonable request.

Evaluate the service before you uni laterally cut. The Min ister ind icated in that meeting that she made her decision based on conversations with the former Member of Parliament, Leo Duguay. Would the Minis ter please consider to at least take a positive step and at least agree to evaluate the service of the Unem ployed Help Centres in Brandon and Winnip eg before uni laterally slashing the funding? Hon.

Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Community Services): The problem is, if I was to evaluate this, I would be evaluating federal programs and we are not in the business in this province of evaluating the federal program. * (13 55) M PlC General Ins urance Division Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, a couple of weeks ago, the Legislative Committee on Public Utiliti es discussed the future of the General Ins urance Division of the Manitoba Public Insu rance Corporation and passed a resolution which incidentally was supported by the Minis ter responsible for MPIC (Mr.

Cummings) and also by the Member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns), requesting the Government to study options for the future of the General Insurance Division, based on the tact that it has been turned around financial ly, based on the tact that there are jobs involved, and based on the tact there are a lot of present policyholders who will be hurt. Has the MPIC-1 am asking this of the Mini ster-begun a review of these options, and can the Min ister advise the House of any progress in this respect? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister responsible for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation): Mr.

Speaker, yes, as a matter of fact, the reason we supported the resolution and the motion is that it in fact reinforces the process that we have already put in place. We are in fact examining all the options that are available. Some Honourable Members: Hear, hear! Service Elimination Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) of this province has made his position very clear and I thought he was speaking for his Government, which is in direct contradiction to the position of this committee. I would ask the Minis ter (Mr. Cummings), has the Premier (Mr.

Filmon), has this Government taken a position to accept the position of the commit tee in this matter, or is the Premier's position still as conveyed to the Minis ter (Mr. Cummings), that he is totally adamant that the General In surance lines of MP IC shall be eliminated forthwith, because that was his public position. Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister responsible for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation): Mr. Speaker, the Member opposite I think forgets that the problems of this arm of the corporation were created under his admini stration when they continuously lost money.

That is what put that arm of the corporation in jeopardy in the manner in which it has to operate. We are examining whatever options are available to that part of the corporation. Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr. Speaker, that Min ister (Mr. Cumm ings) knows full well that it was turned around before he took office. Brandon City Council Meeting Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Brandon East, with a final supplementary question. Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): My fina l supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to the same Min ister (Mr. 3273

Tuesday, November 22, 1988 Cumniirigs) is with respect to the fact that the City Council of Brandon has now taken a stand against the elimination of the General In surance Division of the MPI C because of the negative impa ct on tha t commun ity, and for other reasons. Has this Min ister been contacted by the city, and will he and the Premier (Mr. Filmon) give them the courtesy of an early meeting? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister responsible for Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation): Mr. Speaker, I am quite frequently in contact with the Mayor of the City of Brandon and the admi nistration.

As a matter of fact, I had a meeting with Mr. Peter Olfert within the last week as well. I am certainly prepared and I am sure the Premier (Mr. Filmon) will as well meet with the council, the representatives of the City of Brandon. We have always ind icated that we are very conscious of the responsibility we have towards the employees and the responsibility we have towards the City of Brand on and its economic expansion. Manitoba Metis Federation Self-Governing Institutions Mr. Herold Driedger (Niakwa): Mr. Speaker , my question is for the Mini ster of Northern and Native Affa irs (Mr. Downey).

Ever since the failure of the First Minis ter's (Mr. Filmon) Conference on Aboriginal Rights in March of 1987 processes have been implemented to define and develop self-governing ins titutions for Native people, self-governing institutions in the areas of child and family services, economic development, education, which in the case of the Manitoba Metis Federation deals specifically with the Louis Riel Institute, and also in the areas of housing and so forth. The step 1 of this particular process is simply the definition phase. Step 2 is the continuation to get to the technical working groups.

My question is simply this: has this Government committed to completing this tripartite process with the Manitoba Metis Federation? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern and Native Affairs): Mr. Speaker, discussions with my department and the Native Affairs Secretariat are ongoing with the Manitoba Metis Federation. Technical Working Groups Mr. Herold Driedger (Niakwa): We have heard the answer with respect to the review of the Native Affairs Secretariat with respect to these questions several times now.

Has the Government decided to go to the next stage with the technical working groups, which is to identify the personnel who will represent the province in the technical working groups with the Metis tripartite process and, if so, who are they and, if not, why not? * (14 00) Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern and Native Affairs): As I have ind icated, there are discussion going on with the Native Affairs Secretariat and the Manitoba Metis Federation at this particular time. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Niakwa, with a final supplementary. Mr. Herold Driedger: With a final supplementary then.

We hear the discussions are going on, the discussions are carrying on. When can we actually expect some concrete action then with respect to the Native people on some mutually agreed upon agendas? Mr. Downey: Mr. Speaker, as the discussions are going on between the organizations and my department, when those di scussions are concluded the Member will have that information. Affirmative Action Press Gallery Mr. Harry Enns (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Min ister responsible for the Affirmative Action Program (Mr. Conn ery) in this province.

I direct his and Honourable Members' attention to the press gallery and the members of the Fourth Estate seated therein, and I make the observation that it is obvious tha t my gender is being extremely and severely discrimi nated against. I wonder, Mr. Speaker, what the Mini ster is going to do about it. Hon. Edward Connery (Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, I will take this question under advisement and get back to the House. National Park Proposal Churchill, MB Mr. Jay Cowan (Churchill): My question is to the Mini ster of Natural Resources (Mr.

Penner). 1t is my understanding that the Minis ter attended a meeting in Churchill this last Friday, at which time the National Park was discussed. I would ask the Minis ter if he can assure the Hous e tha t the comments th at were presented to him by the residents of Churchill will be given full consideration as his Government works cooperatively with the federal Government and with the residents of the area to develop that national park. Hon. Jack Penner (Minister of Natural Resources): Yes, Mr. Speaker, you have that assurance. Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern Affairs): And what side are you on? Mr.

Cowan: Mr. Speaker, the Member for Arthur asked me which side I am on. I am on the side of due process with the residents of Churchill. Residents Working Committee Mr. Jay Cowan (Churchill): Can I ask the Minis ter if he has had an opportunity to strike a working group with the residents of Churchill at this point in time so that they will be fully involved in the development of the ... Some Honourable Member: Oh! Oh! Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Cowan: If only we could have such a prompt response all the time from the Min isters on questions 3274

Tuesday, November 22, 1988 we ask of them. We must give full credit to the press gallery for that immediate response to a very pressing problem. Go ing back to pressing problems with th e Government, Mr.

Speaker, can the Minister assure the House that he will develop a working commit tee in the community of Churchill that will be able to participate, right from the beginning, in the conceptualization of this park, and that commit tee will be empowered to unde rtake public discussions in the community to ensure that all the viewpoints of all the residents in that community are being heard, listened to, and dealt with, as part of the development of this park? Hon. Jack Penner (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker, I would have to ind icate in a negative manner at this time.

I posed the question at a meeting in Churchill of about some 100 Churchill residents and people from the surrounding area as to whether they would in fact want to form a comm ittee to deal with the establishment of a national park in the Churchill area, and whether they would want to represent their views in that manner or have their views represented in that mann er. The ind ication was, no, they did not want to establish a committee.

They asked, however, whether it would be possible for this Government to assure them that they would have legal representation that would be able to represent their views, if and when we reached the stage where we would sit down and negotiate with our federal counterparts the possibility of a national park and, if so, in what form it should be structured, and I ind icated to them in a positive manner. Committee Support Mr.

Jay Cowan (Churchill): I think the Min ister, if he were to listen to certain groups in the commun ity, would appreciate the fact that there are individuals who want to be invo lved in a structured manner through a commit tee structure in the full process of developing that park. I would ask him if he were to receive representation to that effect , and a request by the community residents to strike a local comm ittee, if he would be prepared to entertain that request in a positive fash ion? Hon.

Jack Penner (Minister of Natural Resources): As we had indica ted during the election that we were an open Government and we were a consu ltative Government, I took it upon myself to ask the people from Churchill to meet with myself and my staff to discuss the issue and to hear their concerns that they might have if and when we should sit down with our federal counterparts to di scuss a national park. They did that; they did that in a very open mann er. I thought they voiced their opinions fairly well.

I thought that they left us with a clear indication as to what concerns they had and how they should be addressed. The statement was made that they would like legal couns el if and when we did enter into negotiations with our federal counterparts. I ind icated to them that we would make sure that legal counsel would be provided. Mr. Cowan: I appreciate the fact that at some point in time the Government would make legal counsel available to those members of the community who requested it.

In the beginning, one has to develop a process within the community that ensures all the community issues are being dealt with adequately. I would ask him again specifical ly, Mr. Speaker, if he were to receive a request with respect to a committee, would the Government be prepared to suppor t tha t request -and I am rephrasing it a bit dif ferently if I can, Mr. Speaker to support that request with a positive response to the community so that such a commit tee could be struck?

This is before one would assume that legal counsel would be requi red, because I believe that would be too late in the process to fully develop community input to the extent required. Mr. Penner: The question that has been asked by the Honourable Member for Churchill (Mr. Cowan) is a very fair one. I indica ted very clearly to the meeting in Churchill that I was very open to the formation of a comm ittee.

As a matter of fact, I asked them whether they would want to form a committee that would be able to sit down almost immediately in a joint committee and discuss the issues that might be of concern to them and to also be very involved in the discussions with the federal people in the formation of a national park.- (Interjection)- I am sorry, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Penner: I was not going to bowl the Honourable Member from the Liberal Party over. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. lt really makes your day, does it not? Affirmative Action Program Objectives Mr.

Allan Patterson (Radisson): Thank you, Mr. Spea ker, a hard act to follow here. My question is to the Minis ter respon sible for the Civil Service Commission and Affirmative Action (Mr. Connery). May I cong ratulate him for his recent swift action?

In a letter to the President of the National Black Coalition of Canada printed in the November 16 issue of Contrast, the Premier stated that, "The Assistant Deputy Min ister, Human Resource Mana gement for the Civil Service Commission, has direct responsibility for the staffing, training and development and career counselling functions which are critical to the support and imple mentation of affirmative action across the Government." Will the Minister inform this House now of the specific ini tiatives that are in place or planned to assist present Government employees who are members of the affirmative action target groups to reach their full potential?

Hon. Edward Connery (Minister of Labour): I welcome the Member's question. lt is nice to see him back here. I hope he had a good holiday. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! 3275

Tuesday, November 22, 1988 Mr. Speaker: Order. * (1410 ) Mr. Connery: I am sorry. I take that back. I hope he had a bad holiday. Mr. Speaker: May I remind the Honourable Min ister that we do not make reference to Members either being present and/or away? Mr. Connery: Well, as the Member knows, Mr. Speaker, there is a Career Options Program in place for helping those people in the affirmative action to take courses to imp rove themselves so that they can move up the ladder within the Civil Service.

We are looking at affirmative action and, while we talk about affirmative action, we are only talking about it in the Civil Service. There are only some 18 ,000 jobs within the Civil Service, while there are some 500,000 jobs out in the general public. Our goal as a Government is to try to move the affirmative action into other Crown corporations, into the large corporations, and into the public sectors, where a lot more people will have an opportunity within the affirmative action target group to obtain a job. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Initiatives Mr.

Allan Patterson (Radisson): With a supplementary, Mr. Speaker, will the Minis ter inform this House the specific ini tiatives that are now in place or planned to enable members of the affirmative action target groups in the labour market to have opportuni ty to compete in external competitions? Details please, Mr. Speaker, rather than generalities. Hon. Edward Connery (Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, we will be getting into the Estima tes process but I am not going to delay the answer until we get into there. We will have a much greater opportunity to discuss that situati on.

There are two categories, adminis tration and clerical, below the AY2. Those positions are not available to external people to apply. lt is because there was an agreement made with the MGEA and the previous Government to move people off that are already within the MGEA. Now there are some valid arguments to this and there are some valid arguments against this. In the Estimates process, because it is such a complex question, I think we will have a very good opportunity to examine the pros and cons of tha t particular agreement. Improvements Mr. Allan Patterson (Radisson): A second supplementary, Mr.

Speaker, the Min ister of Health (Mr. Orchard) has ind icated recently tha t the same affirmative action policy is in place that was used by the previous admi nistration. Now the letter I referred to earlier that the Premier (Mr. Filmon) stated again: "The Mi ni ster responsible for affirmative action has taken steps to improve the processes structure to which affirmative action will be implemented and mon itored." Will the Minis ter in form this House what these improvements will be and when will they take place? Hon.

Edward Connery (Minister of Labour): The Member kn ows full well that we raised the position of affirmative action from a director to that of an Assistant Deputy Min ister under the Human Resources. I have explained to him many times that there are various committees made up of Assistant Deputy Min isters and members of MGE A. There are commi ttees involv ed in the personnel departments and people who are appointed from various departments to work on the Affirmative Action Program.

He knows that we have ins tructed the personnel department people, and that is where the hiring is taking place, that affi rmative action is part of this Government's program and how they are to go about hiring affirmative action people. The program is in place and- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. The time for oral questions has expired. NON-POLITICAL STATEMENTS Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern and Native Affairs): I wonder if I could have leave of the House to read a non-political proclamation. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Minis ter have leave? (Agreed) Mr. Downey: Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to read the Proclamation. Today is Native Language Week.

WHERE AS language is a vital birthright of Native people; and WHERE AS language and culture are closely con nected and both must be maintained; and WHERE AS language is the vehicle by which culture is transm itted from one generation to another; and WH EREAS language must be maintained and developed within the local communi ty, with the communi ty deciding on the methods of retention and prevention; and WHERE AS lang uage can help build self confidence and a positive self-image; and WHERE AS it is vital not only to develop, maintain and retain the oral language but, where possible, the reading and writing of it also be maintained;

now THEREFORE, be it known that I, James Downey, Min ister responsible for Native Affa irs, do declare the week of November 20 to the 26, 1988, to be Native Language Week in Manitoba, and do 3276

Tuesday, November 22, 1988 commend its thoughtful observance to all the citizens of the Province of Manitoba. Thank you. Mr. Herold Driedger (Niakwa): May I beg leave of the House to make a non-political statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member have leave to make a non-political statement? (Agreed) * (14 20) Mr. Herold Driedger: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I wish to lend my words to the proclamation just read out. I was at the open house at which the Min ister of Northern and Native Affairs (Mr. Downey) and the Mayor of the city both, not jointly but separately, proclaimed Native Language Week.

I wish to underscore the value that we, on this side, place upon the closeness, the relat ionship between langua ge and culture, and particularly now when the Native, the aboriginal peoples, are seeking to identify their pride of place in this great country. I think the stress that they are placing upon language, which the Mini ster correctly associated, where language and culture are closely connected, which we have seen demonstrated by the actions of the Province of Quebec when they felt very strongly that their culture was at risk, that they stressed the language development in that province.

The aboriginal people are doing this as well, and they need to do this particularly if they wish to get in touch with their ancestry, with their heritage, their spiritual ity. I wish to simply have my words placed on the record in support of this Native Language Week. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. COMMITTEE CHANGES Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Mem ber for Minn edosa (Mr.

Gillesham mer), that the composition of the Standing Comm ittee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources be amended as follows: Neufeld for Find lay, Oleson for Penner; and the composition of the Standing Comm ittee on Indus trial Relations be amended as follows: Manness for Burrell, Mi tchelson for Conn ery. ORDERS OF THE DAY HOUSE BUSINESS Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I am announcing today that the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources will sit on Thursday morning at 10 a.m., Room 255, to continue consider ation of the Annua l Report of Manitoba Hydro.

I am also announcing, Mr. Speaker, that the Standing Committee on Ind ustrial Relations will sit on Thursday morning, Room 254, at 10 a.m., to consider Bills referred, specifically Bill No. 37. Also, Mr. Speaker, the House Leaders and I have reached an agreement that there would be no Private Members' Hour today. Mr. Speaker, that is all agreed. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave of the House to waive Private Members' Hour today? (Agreed) COMMITTEE CHANGES Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (lnkster): Mr. Speaker, I have a commit tee change. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Transcona (Mr.

Kozak), that the composition of the Stan din g Commit tee on Ind ustrial Relations be amended as foll ows: the Honourable Member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) for the Honourable Member for St. James (Mr. Edwards); the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge (Mr. Carr) for the Honourable Member for Kildonan (Mr. Cheema). Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, while prelimi nary matters are disposed of, I would move, seconded by the Honourable Min ister of Finance (Mr. Manness), that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Commi ttee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOT ION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Commit tee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majes ty, with the Honourable Member for Minn edosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) in the Chair for the Departments of Highways and Transportation, Housing and Urban Affairs; and the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks (Mr. Minenko) in the Chair for the Department of Health. * (14 30) CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY-H IGHWAYS AND TRANSP ORTATION Mr.

Chairman, Harold Gilleshammer: I call to order this meeting to consider the Estimates of the Hig hways Department. We are on item 5. Transportation Policy and Research (

a) Transportation Policy and Research:

(1) Salaries $765,400.00. The Honourable Min ister. Hon . Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): I just want to indic ate to the Member for Assiniboia (Mr. Mandrake) that he raised some questions about the Swan River Airport. I would just like to give him some in formation that we checked that out. Under the Transport Canada regulations, they require an overrun at either end of the runway. For an airport such as Swan River, the overrun between the end of the runway and any ground level of structure such as a ditch must be 200 feet long.

The Town of Swan River advised that a ditch does exist but it is more than 200 feet from the end runway. In addition, as a safety measure, the ditch has been filled with a 200-foot long culvert so that the ditch is not an obstacle to aircraft forced to use the overrun. The Town of Swan River also advises the following. Runw ay 02-20 was recently extended, widened and resurfaced. Improvements will be made to runway 08- 3277

Tuesday, November 22, 1988 26. During the construction period, only one side of the runway was excavated at the time. The other side remained graded. Work has since been completed, including final grading of the shoulders. Construction work has been in spected by Transport Canada and conforms to their standards. Mr. Ed Mandrake (Assiniboia): I appreciate the answers that the Minis ter provided. Apart from what he just finished saying, could he be so kind as to tell me what was the provincial contribution to the Swan River Airport? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr.

Chairman, I want to ind icate that we will try and get that information. Our normal provincial grant is $2,400 to the airport. I assume the Member is asking about the extension costs. Mr. Mandrake: That is right. Mr. Albert Driedger: Then I would like to in dicate that we will try and get that information exactly, and a breakdown. Mr. Mandrake: Thank you. One other question on this 5.(a), on your Mobility Disadvantaged in Rural Manitoba, what about the mobility transportation of the mobil ity disabled in Winnipeg? How much money has been contributed to them? Mr.

Albert Driedger: I am informed that the Manitoba Government is involved only in the rural area and is not involved in the mobility operations in Winnipeg. That comes under the City of Winnipeg. In fact, if I might add to that, the Mini ster of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ducharme) is next on the docket and he could probably give some ind ication on that. Mr. Chairman: 5. (a)(1) - pass; 5.( a)

(2) Othe r Expen di tures $274,000- pass; 5.(

b) Rural Transportation Grants for the Mobil ity Disadvantaged $404,500-pass. (

c) Canada-Manitoba Chur chill Agreement:

(1) Salaries $1 7,600-the Member for Assiniboia. Mr. Mandrake: Would the Mini ster be so kind as to- 1 am not asking for an explanation now, but just table the report. I am noticing here a Capital expenditure of $7 million. Where is this spent? Mr. Albert Driedger: Where do we see this? Mr. Mandrake: On page 77 on the bottom, footnote no. 1. Mr. Chairman: Is that under the Canada-Manitoba Churchill Agreement? Mr. Mandrake: Yes. Mr. Albert Driedger: That is the Boxcar Rehabilitation Program that was in effect and that, I think, is completed now. Mr.

Ma ndrake: How many boxcars have you rehabilita ted under this program? Mr. Albert Driedger: 465. I think that is relatively close. Mr. Mandrake: I noticed here, Mr. Chairperson, to the Min ister, again under the Churchill Agreement, we are making reference to the rail inf rastructure, port inf rastructure, air in frastructure. I am not asking for an explanation, but if you could kindly just table that for me and, I am sure, for the second Opposition's information as to exactly what does that entai l. Mr. Chairman: 5. (c)(1) - pass; (c)

(2) Other Expen di tures, $65,600- pass; 5.(

d) Canada-Manitoba Transportation Development Agreement:

(1) Salaries $79,600-pass;

(2) Other Expenditu res $757,200- pass. Resolution No. 89: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,363,900 for Highways and Transportation, Transportation Policy and Research, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 89- pass. Item 6. Driver and Vehicle Licensi ng: Admini sters hig hway safety programs through driver im provement, safety , public information and driver testing and maintenance of records on drivers involved in accidents or convic ted of traffic violations. Provides for those matters relating to driver and vehicle registration not specifically delegated to the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation. (

a) Management Services:

(1) Salaries $2,111 ,600- the Member for Assiniboia. Mr. Mandrake: Mr. Chairperson, to the Min ister, under this section, I would just like to ask the Min ister, I have noticed in the Gazette that we have, I presume, raised the rates on various licences. Approximately how much money is being generated for this fiscal year on the new licence fee structure tha t you have now implemented? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, first of all, I would like to just get back to the Member to ind icate that a copy of the Canada-Manitoba Churchill Agreement will be forwarded to yourself to address that portion of it.

I wonder if the Member could be a bit more specific in terms of when he asks in creases in licences. Is he talking of all fees or drivers' licences? Mr. Mandrake: All fees. * (14 40) Mr. Albert Driedger: The incr ease is approximately $1 87,000 more in in crease in licence fees. If I could just add to that, Mr. Chairman, the antici pated revenue is $7,758,000, more or less, that is generated with the various licence fees. Mr. Mandrake: Does this money, is it going to Capital projects or is this going into General Revenue? 3278

! Tuesday, November 22, 1988 Mr. Albert Driedger: It goes to the Consolidated Fund . Mr. Mandrake: Consolidated? Mr. Albert Driedger: Into General Revenue, basically . It all goes into the one big pot and out of there everything gets distributed. Mr. Mandrake : Mr. Chairperson , would it not be a little bit more logical to put that money back into Highways and Transportation? We are generating that revenue. Would the Minister undertake to speak to his Cab inet to put this money, a share back into cap ital pro jects for Highways and Transportat ion? Mr.

Albert Driedger: If the Member recalls , in my opening remarks , I had indicated that at one time 10 years ago that 60 percent of the revenue - or we had a shortfall of about 40 percent which was picked up out of General Revenue in terms of the total expenditures under the Highway Estimates , which has gradually been thinned out to the point where we are almost a revenue-bearing department , what amounts to revenues , so I am concerned that actually we have sort of gone a little too far in terms of I feel that the infrastructures are a very important part of it and once the department gets to be a revenue-bear ing department that - I think things are out of whack .

I think that the infrastructu re like highways , bridges , these kind of things , should-we should be putting some out of the general funds into there. We are looking at this very closely , and I appreciate the Membe r's comments on that . Mr. Chairman: 6.(a)(1)- pass; 6.(a)(2)-pa ss; 6.(b)(1) pass; 6.(b)(2) - pass ; 6.(c)( 1)- pass ; 6.(c)(2) - pass; 6.(d)-pass . Resolution No. 90: Resolved that there be granted lo Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $13,427,100 for Highways and Transportat ion , Driver and Vehicle Licensing , for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March , 1989 - pass . Item No. 7.

Boards and Committees : Provides general supervision over motor carr iers and operation of public service vehicles and commercial trucks ; administers the Highway Protection , Highway Traffic and Snowmobile Acts ; provides an appeal procedure for citizens whose driving privileges have been suspended ; and regulates taxicab, limousine and handi van licensing within the City of Winnipeg . 7.(

a) Motor Transport Board :

(1) Salaries, $645,200 - the Member for Assiniboia . Mr. Mandrake : The Motor Transport Board , if my assumption is right , is an autonomous body. Am I right or am I wrong? · Mr. Albert Driedger: The Motor Transport Board is a quasi-judicial board wh ich is autonomous . They basically make decisions based on the policy guidelines that are there and they operate independently of the Minister's office in terms of the ir hearings . Mr. Chairman: 7.(

a) Motor Transport Board :

(1) Salaries-pass ; (a)

(2) Other Expenditures - pass; 7.(

b) Highway Traffic Board :

(1) Salaries $194,000-pass ; 7.(b)

(2) Other Expenditures $69,000-pass . Item 7.(

c) Licence Suspension Appeal Board :

(1) Salaries , $221 ,600 - the Member for Assiniboia . Mr. Mandrake : Mr. Chairperson , in this

section here, when people are applying to the Appeal Board for their licences, are they being asked to pay a nominal fee for this or has it all been subsid ized by the Government? Mr. Driedger: Mr. Chairman , when somebody makes an appl ication to the Licence Suspension Appeal Board , they have to pay a fee of-when they make an application before the Licence Susp ension Appeal Board, they have to pay a fee of $65.00 . If it is before the Medical Review Committee , they have to pay $35.00. Mr. Chairman: Item 7.(c)

(1) Salaries-pass ; (c)

(2) Other Expenditures - pass . Item 7.(

d) Taxicab Board :

(1) Salaries , $158 ,900 - the Member for Assiniboia . Mr. Mandrake: One quest ion, Mr. Chairperson , to the Minister , I have had several representations by the handi-vans for transportation of disabled people . I not iced that the Taxicab Board presently governs this segment of the industry . A suggestion , Mr. Minister, would it not be a lot more logical to put this very important and very needy industry under a separate board, as opposed to under the Taxicab Board, the two different types of industries . Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to indicate to the Member that there have been some difficult times in the taxicab industry over a period of time , and what has happened is that the Taxicab Board is now going to be advertising . In fact , within a week, I believe they will be advertising the fact that they will be conducting hearings starting in January . This has been done on a consultative approach with the industry .

They have developed a format which will be circulated in conjunction with a press conference that the Chairman is going to be having and indicating exactly when the hearings will proceed or when they start , and also the format is outlined in this document in terms of all aspects . Anybody who has any concern about the taxicab industry , whether it is the handicapped transportation , whether it is the taxicabs , the condition of cabs , the Chamber , the city, anybody who has a concern can come forward and make presentation at these hearings . They will be taking place approximately in the middle of January.

I think if I am correct, the 16th and the 17th are the first ones , but it will be well advertised to the total industry, which will allow everybody to come forward and make presentations to the Taxicab Board . After those presentations have been heard , the Taxicab Board then will take and make recommendations in terms of what changes should possibly take place, and it could well be that after they have heard all the input from all people who are involved or concerned that they might be suggesting exactly what the Member has suggested . 3279

Tuesday, November 22, 1988 Mr. Bob Rose (St. Vital): I would like to ask the Min ister, in this particular hearing, if the rate structure for taxicabs in the City of Winnip eg will be conside red at the same time or will that be separate? * (14 50) Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Ch airman, it is my understanding that the whole aspect of it, the whole ind ustry will be considered, which would also deal I suppose directly or indir ectly with the rate structures that could be charged.

Once all the input is into there, because part of the criteria that has been forwarded or is going to be forwarded, deals specifically with the fact that the board will be able to have a look at the financial statements of operators so that they can have a better idea as to what is going on. There has been a lot of confusion. With the Touche Ross Report that came down, it created a lot of cont roversy, a lot of indecision and unc ertainty in the minds of many people in the indus try.

Hopefully, these hearings, that was one of the commitments that I made was that we would conduct these hearings and do it on a very fair and open basis and from thereon that we would then be able to draw some proper conclusions and maybe try and straighten the indus try out, if I might put it that way. Mr. Rose: Not to draw this out, thank you, Mr. Chairman, but to the Min ister, I understand there is an application before the board for an incr ease by the taxicab indus try.

You do not seem to have answered us specifically as to whether that application will be heard as a separate application or whether it will be encompassed in the hearings that you alluded to. Mr. Albert Driedger: One incr ease was actually already approved in the last recent while but they do apparently an ongoing review of this. That is my understanding. Mr. Rose: Is the Minis ter ind icating that there has been a recent in crease in taxicab fares, or is he alluding to the fact that there has been an in crease in hand i-van fares because there is a di stinct difference, as has already been pointed out? Mr.

Albert Driedger: My apologies to the Member. lt is for the handi- van fares that there was an in crease, not for the taxicab indus try. Mr. Rose: Mr. Chairman, with that un derstanding, he can now answer my question as to whether they will be encom passed in other hearings or whether there will be a separate hearing for a rate increase in taxicabs. Mr. Albert Driedger: The application for an in crease in taxicab fares would be dealt with on a different basis. This is just to address the problems in there. Mr. Chairman: 7.(d )( 1)- pass; 7.(d)

(2) Othe r Expenditures, $31, 100-p ass. Resolution No. 91: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 ,478,800 for Highways and Transportation, Boards and Committees, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1989- pass. Mr. Albert Driedger: I had ind icated to the Member for Assiniboia (Mr. Mandr ake) that I would be giving him some further information on the Swan River Airport. I have that information now. With a total expenditure of 1,349,638 that was spent over a period from'82 till '88 and, out of that, $924,200 was a federal share, $421 ,438 was a provincial share. That was from'82 to '88. Mr. Chairman: Item No. 8. Expenditures Related to Capital (

a) Construction and Upgrading of Provincial Trunk Hig hways, Provincial Roads and Related Projects, $95,000,000-the Member for Assiniboia. Mr. Mandrake: One question, Mr. Chai rperson, on your Highways projects, I have been going through the new projects that the Min ister had provided for me. The question I would like to ask the Minis ter is what criteria do they use when they select a hig hway to be fixed or not to be fixed? Mr.

Albert Driedger: I suppose that one could say it is sort of a complex way of doing it and part of it is political, but I would have to indic ate-ma ybe I can give a little bit of a scenario to the Mem ber. When we had the privilege of taking office on May 9, there was a Budget that had been presented and it was defeated. Su bsequent to that, our procedure was to go through the whole Budget and, in some cases, there was repriorization done. However, Mr.

Chairman, I would like to ind icate to the Members here that the approach that we are looking at using for this upcoming year-and we are looking at actually trying to develop a two- and three-year program ins tead of just a one-year program. I have written each one of the Members of the Legislature and asked them to give me three priorities that they feel would be important within their constitue ncy. Su bsequent to that, I have also written to the municipality asking them to forward one priority in their estimation.

What we do, we are going to be compiling those figur es and, in conjunction with the staff, the 12 districts basically come forward with recommendations and, together with the other construction staff, we go through the whole process and look where the priorities should be established. I would like to ind icate, as I did earlier, that our PTH system I think is the one that is most critical because 77 percent of all traffic travels on the PTH system,

whereas 23 percent travels on the PR system. When we look at the national system and the National Safety Code, Weights and Dimensions, there are many changes that are taking place that I think our major routes are the ones that should have priority, not ignoring the needs of the PR system. So it is sort of a melding of the pot. What the staff has done when they went through the program with myself was to sort of try and see whether we could generally meld a variety of projects so we did not have all pavement or all grade and gravel, so it is based on AST asphalt. So it was a general 3280

Tuesday, November 22, 1988 blend so that we can try and keep most of the contractors, at least give them an opportunity to bid on these things. Other things that are looked at of course is the staff has sort of a scale that they use in terms of the shape that a road is in. They have a formula that is used in conjunction with the traffic volumes, accident experience, condition ratings, the pavements, etc., capacity, the kind of trucking, snow-clearing problems, all these things that are used by staff in sort of developing a formula in conjunction with the general requirements.

So it is not just "by gosh and by golly" really. A lot of effort goes into trying to figure out which roads should be priorized. lt is unfortunate that over a period of time, especially in the last six years, there was a decrease in spending and as a result we have fallen so far behind and it is a matter of desperately to catch up and seeing whether we can get our roads into a better condition. Mr. Mandrake: Mr.

Chairperson, to the Minis ter, the Yellowhead Route which is a cost-sharing program with the federal Government, could the Min ister please advise this comm ittee as to when does this agreement expire and how much money has been allocated by the federal Government for this agreement? How much is going to be allotted to Manitoba? Mr. Albert Driedger: A little over three years ago, I suppose because Governments -the four western provinces combined, along with the Yellowhead Route Association, were lobbying the federal Government in terms of trying to get cost sharing.

There has been very little cost sharing by the federal Government in terms of provincial roads in this province, as well as the other western provinces. A special lobby I guess was successful in terms of having every body synchronize their efforts. As a result, agreement was reached with the federal Government to the tune of $50 million, cost shared equally. Then it was subdivided between the various provinces, but B.C. getting the biggest portion of it. The Manitoba share was $10 million cost shared.

That program has been ongoing for three years now and will be completed by the end of the 19 89 construct ion, with carry-over to the 19 90 construction season. • (1 500) Mr. Mandrake: On that same topic, will this Mini ster now speak to his counterparts in Ottawa and ask them to now proceed past 1990 on a cost-sharing program on the Yellowhead Route, because you people had made a promise during the election that you are going to twin Hig hway 44- correct me if I am wro ng-to Beausejour. Now would this fall under this type of a project? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr.

Chairman, I want to ind icate to the Member that we will do much better than that now that we have, I believe, a smiling Government at the federal level again. I feel very optimistic and I will most emphatically get in touch as soon as I know who the federal Minis ter of Transportation is. I will be at his 328 1 door asking for cost sharing and trying to develop a program whereby we will get federal participation in some of these programs. As I had indi cated earlier, I think Canada is one of the few developed countries that does not have the federal Government participate in cost sharing.

So we will certainly encourage that type of thing to take place. Mr. Mandrake: Now on hig hways, I just want to put on record that on the following high ways I have got some concern to make: 367 in Duck Mountains, that road is in bad condition, once it rains you will not dare travel on it; 242 from Bagot, it has been on the plan to be paved, it has not been done. Now the other question is 221, from lnkster Boulevard to the Perimeter. What is the plan for that road, or is there any plan for that hi ghway now that you are putting in the by-pass? Mr.

Albert Driedger: Maybe just so I can get a better clarification, we will be doing work on ln kster close to the Perimeter. The Member is well aware that we are doing the cloverleaf at the Perimeter and No. 7 to the tune of $13.5 million and our approach right up to the city bound ary. Hopefully, the city will respond in kind and do the dualing of their portion of it so that we can have a safe hig hway after spending that kind of money there. Mr. Mandrake: We are putting the cart before the horse. Why did we not get an agreement with the city first, then build the by-pass? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr.

Chairman, I certainly cannot be responsible for the previous adminis tration, why they did or did not make agreements with the city. I can indic ate to the Member that I have already on a few occasions met with my colleague, the Min ister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ducharme), as well as the Mi nister of Tourism (Mr. Ernst) and with representation from the city in terms of ind icating that we are trying to get them to priorize the accesses into the city on hig hways like High way 75, High way 59, Highway 7, Highway 9.

In fact, most of the approaches actually I find it not acceptable that we spend the kind of money that we do from the Manitoba Government on highways and our approaches to the city and, when we get to the city portion of it, that we have very poor access into the city. We are in discussions with them. In fact, we will be meeting again next week to discuss that aspect of it. Mr. Mandrake: Just a question to the Min ister, during Question Period, I had asked the Mi nister about the Port of Churchill. I am very concerned about grain shipments to Churchill for this coming year. He had alluded to 41 initia tives.

Now would he be so kind as to tell me, the committee that he has cons tructed for this 41 in itiatives to be looked at, is ther e anybody from Churchill on this comm ittee? Mr. Albert Driedger: We initially established an all Party committee here to try to lobby and create pressure on the Wheat Board, the federal Government, all the players in the game to try and get grain moving through the Port of Churchill. That was one committee. Subs equent to that, we ha ve structured an

Tuesday, November 22, 1988 int erdepartmental comm ittee which is from resource people within Government. The reason we establi shed that committee was to try, ins tead of having each department working independently on some of these initia tives, we could try and coordina te these initiativ es and make a better impression of them. Mr. Mandrake: I noticed my colleague from Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) is here. Maybe he would like to ask some questions while we are on Expenditur es for Capital Projects. Mr. Chairman: Item (a) $95 million-the Member for The Pas. Mr. Harry Harapiak (The Pas): I just have a question.

The Mini ster very glowingly said that he is going to be meeting with his federal counterparts. I am wondering, has there been any representation made with the federal Government up until now for further cost sharing similar to the agreement tha t ha d been made with the Yellowhead Route. Mr. Albert Driedger: Actually we have two approaches that we are using. One is that under RTAC, my Deputy Min ister, Boris Hryhorczuk, is the chairman of that committee, has been working with all his counterparts across the country in terms of developing what we call a national hig hway program.

We met with the federal Minis ter. All the Mini sters met in Halifax some time ago. My Deputy then presented the program, the designated program that has been agreed on. That is stage one. Stage two is the fact that from here on in they will be esta blishing exactly what is req uir ed. I thin k something lik e over 24,000 kilo metres have been identified as a national hig hway program. The next step is to establish and see exactly to what standard it should be built all across this country so that we can have a proper two-lane hig hway, paved, safety features included and stuff of that nature.

That is the more practical approach, I believe, that is being used in the department. The political approach is the one that I use from the Government side of it. I have approached the then Min ister of Transport, Benoit Bouchard, on about three or four occasions already, asking for cost sharing on some of our major routes. When you consider that our Government feels that Highway 75 should be a priority and the total cost of twinning that hig hway would be in the area of $95 million, which is what my total Capital Program is in one year, it makes it very difficult.

Unless we can get some cost sharing, as we have on the Yellowhead Route, I think we will have great difficulty keeping up with what we want to do in terms of construction on our hig hways. Mr. Harapiak: On the twinning of Highway 75, will there be any additional work carried out this year outside of purchasing the additional lands that are required for further twinning of Hwy. 75? Mr. Albert Driedger: If I could clarify that, the construction portion of it, there were 16 kilometres of grade and gravel done this year, which is now actually ready to be paved.

Past that, we have to initia te survey and design, location of where the hig hway goes and, because it is a priority of this Government to escalate that program, we are initiating it from both ends, both from the Interstate 29 on the American side and from this end where the grading has now quit, from there going to Morris, how we deal with Morris, whether we go through Morris, around Morris, over Morris. We have a real problem there. These things are in the mill right now in terms of how we proceed from here on. * (15 10) Mr.

Harapiak: There was a program, Roads to Resources, and I imagine this would come under this area as well. Is th at presently hand led by the Department of Northern Affairs or is it under the Department of Highways? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, we do not have that in High ways anymore. That has been transferred to Northern Affairs. Mr. Harapiak: Northern Affairs has complete control over it? Is it totally in their budget? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, I am told that the Department of Northern Affairs has that program. Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Chairman. I just wanted to ask while we are on this

section whether the Minis ter could give us an update on the overall costs for the Selkirk bridge project going to Selkirk, and the plans for the completion of that project including paving? I notice from the Capital Program some asphalt surface treatment, which I hope is just the first stage of a full bituminous overlay on that road. Is that the plan or why did the Min ister go to that AST surface? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, I would like to indic ate to the Member that the cost of the bridge was just a little under $20 million. That is the bridge and the roads. The Member is correct.

We did grading up to a point and we put in a base in AST which is the first step. The hig hway system will be completed next year. The total project will be completed in terms of the road construction and paving. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman, just on that, am I correct then in what the Min ister has said, that the endeavour to extend the cost of the project over an extra year by doing the paving in two stages rather than one? Mr. Albert Driedger: That is correct. Mr. Plohman: Mr.

Chairman, can the Minis ter at this point take the opportunity to set the record straight and publi cly disavow hi mself of the $28 million figure that his colleagues, as well as the Liberal critic, Municipal critic, the Member for Selkirk (Mrs. Charles), used in a question in the House? Can he get that straightened out clearly? I understood him to say it was just under $20 million. Can he give us the exact figure of the total cost of that project? 3282

Tuesday, November 22, 1988 Mr. Albert Driedger: Unfortuna tely, Mr. Chairman, I cannot give him the total figure until we know what the cost of the paving is going to be next year. The estimation is just under $20 million at this stage of the game. As far as the Member's concern is about who else has said whatever, I have ind icated what the costs are and he can straighten out the record if he wants to. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman, I am sure I will be able to do that and the Min ister will certainly not want to be party to incorrect figures.

He should feel very obliged to ensur e tha t the next time someone uses this mis in formation in the House tha t he would feel compelled to straighten it out. Mr. Albert Driedger: The Min ister will be factual. Mr. Plohman: Yes, that is hopefully the case, although I was not necessarily of that opinion when we had an earlier exchange in the House dealing with Highway 75 and plans and so on.

The $1 9.3 million is what the figure was, I believe, at the time that I was last associated with that project and I can see with the project, the tendering for the bituminous pavement yet to come, it would be impossible to give the exact figure but clearly it is showing that once the estimates were finalized, including the redesign of the bridge as required to meet the various federal Navigation Waters Board, whatever it is, and the requirements that for recreation, for sail boats and so on, once the redesign was done, the project estimates stayed about the same and it was right on target, we are finding it, not a bit under target.

Would the Minis ter ind icate that is the case, that once the estimates for this particular bridge were completed, that the project has stayed on target if not under target to this point in terms of costs? Mr. Albert Driedger: I would like to ind icate that my staff are very capable staff. When they come up with these estimated figures, they are pretty well right on the button and there has been very little change. If they made big mistakes in big variations, I would be very concerned but I am not at this stage of the game. Mr. Plohman: I am glad to see the Min ister is expressing that faith in the staff.

Certainly I would think that 99 times out of a 100 I have to agree, and maybe even a 100 out of a 100, except that when we get into cases where prelimina ry estimates, in this particular case for this bridge, did not include what was actually needed. Probably nobody was able to estimate that at the time that the bridge would have to be as high as it was. There was an estimate that was not resem bling the facts in the final analysis, almost half the amount.

I want to ask some other questions on some items and I am sorry that I was not able to get here right at quarter after two, but other events required that I could not make it back in time. There were some other questions that I had on some other areas and I could deal with those under the Mini ster's Salary if he prefers so we do not have to go back into some of those other areas, but he will not have any staff at that time and 328 3 I know that the Liberal critic has also asked some questions on some of those already and I have not had the opportunity to see what those are.

But just on Churchill, I want to clarif y. There was just a brief discussion when I came in. The Mini ster indic ated that he had a commit tee set up as well as the all-Party committee that was there and we have not met for about two months, I do not think. I received the minutes of the last meeting. Can the Minis ter ind icate what has taken place since the last meeting of that committee and what discussions with the federal Government have taken place, if any, or is it all internal and developing positions to take to them with regard to a future program for Churchill? Mr.

Albert Driedger: If the Member is talking about the Churchill aspect of it, that fits into this category under the last item there so we can deal with that as we get down to the line, if he wants to do it that way. If the Member is apologizing for being late, I could sympathize full well with him being late today. lt has been a difficult day for him yesterday and the fact that he has come late, you know, but I am prepared to deal with any questions that he basically had. I had to make a little pun because you cannot be serious here all the time. Mr.

Plohman: The Minis ter was so anxious to make a pun, as he said, that he forgot the question. Mr. Albert Driedger: Let us try again. Mr. Plohman: I asked the Mi nister whether there had been any discussions with the federal Government in the last two months regarding a program for Churchill, a future agreement to follow up on the studies that were done. Is there any prospect at this time? Have there been any discussions or have they all been internal in developing a position up to this point? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, the ERDA members are discussing at the present time, trying to reach an agreement.

However, at the officials' level they are pushing for completion of the projects that were on the program till now, and we have commitment for continua tion of that to some degree. lt is in the program that they continue, can go for one year after the program is supposed to be completed. We are not necessarily sure whether they will go that route but certainly we would like to hold them to that. As the Member is well aware, at Churchill with the agreement that was signed, that the dust-proofing aspect of it was done, the boxcar rehabilitation was done, the rail stabilization was done.

The big outstanding one that we have at the present time is the air terminal, which was committed, I believe, in part of the agreement. We are pushing to have that commitment being completed. *

(1520) Mr. Plohman: I am pleased to see the Minis ter outline a numb er of the acc ompli shme nts tha t we ha d undertaken during our Government. What I am really asking is whether there is a subsequent agreement in

Tuesday, November 22, 1988 the making at this time at all or whether this is just at the point of someone's thoughts rather than any actual negotiations. The agreement expires, I believe, in April of '89 as it stood and, if there was a one-year extension that would put it to April of 19 90 to complete the expenditures under that agreement, so we are within a year, give or take a few months, of having to have another agreement, if there is going to be another agreement on Churchill negotiated and ready for implementation. There is not a lot of time to lose. What are the Minis ter's intentions?

During the discussions we had with the commi ttee at the last meeting held in Room 254, I believe, here in the Legislature, there were discussions that this technical committee of civil servants, various departmental people had been drawn together , put together to start developing a position that would form the basis for negotiations with the federal Government. What has happened in the last two months on that and can the Min ister assure us that is what his intentions are, to negotiate another agreement with the federal Government? Mr.

Albert Driedger: The departmental people have put forward certain projects which the ERDA Min isters are working with right now to try and get an agreement going. lt is in the process right now with the Min isters who are negotiating the ERDA Agreement, so those init iatives are th ere. As I indica ted before, our interdepartmental commi ttee that has been struck is looking at trying to coordinate all the possible initia tives that we are looking to exploit or to see which are feasible to do. There is a whole raft of them.

That interdepartmental committee has basically been instructed to try and coordinate, instead of having every department individually trying to achie ve some kind of a project, that we could synchronize it between Tourism, between Natural Resources, between, like I indica ted, the various departments. We are trying to sort out these things so that we have a un ified approach ins tead of having this individual fractured approach to it. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman, we have been so cooperative during these Estima tes and we do have limit ed time, but I wish the Min ister would give us some specifics.

I know what the purpose of the commit tee is. I just want to know what is happening. Have they been meeting? Have they drawn together proposals? When the Minis ter says that the ERDA Mini sters will be meeting, have they a specific mandate with regard to Churchill from the province? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Ch airman, this interdepartmental committee has been meeting and they are meeting again, in fact, this week or next week to continue.

I will check with the comm ittee to see whether I can maybe release a list of the projects that we are looking at and see whether there are any, of any sense of nature, not that I have anything much to hide. One thing that I would like to suggest is we have th e all-Par ty comm ittee th at basically met-w e discussed this many times. As chairman, I am sort of at the call of the Members to see exactly what approach we should be taking from here on in.

Certain ly, I think we all have a concern that we do not have to go through this kind of a scenario again next year when we talk of moving grain through the Port of Churchill. I am at the beck and call of the Members of the committee. If they have any suggestions as to how we can make things function smoothly or new initia tives that could be looked at aside from what we are looking at right now, I certainly am open to those suggestions. I would like to indic ate that I do not know whether I did that already in these Estimates.

I had the privilege of taking the Count of Belgium up to Churchill and looking at the possibility of having trade taking place both ways. We are looking at meeting with CN people to see whether we can get proper, maybe reasonable rates on the rail lines so that we can make it more conducive to ship, so that possibly -(Interjection) - Yes, okay I am still going to try.

The other thing is to look at the pos sibili ty of getting the line to Churchill designa ted as not just a grain-essential line, and that you might say good luck on that case as well but I have to ind icate that there seems to be support moving in that di rection. So wherever there are opportunities to move and enhance the situation for the Port of Churchill, I am comm itted to it and open to suggestions and will do whatever I can. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman, the reason I say good luck is because we had meetings with CN and they had told us what nice guys they were and so on, but nothing materialized on this.

We have gone through this. I just hope that he has some levers that he can use on CN to get them to not to put in place prohibi tive rates. The only way they have ever lowered the rates in the past is when a hig hway went up to the Limestone area, Gillam area which cut the rates in half in 1980 from what they were in the early Seventies, because there was competition and they had to come down. Otherwise, they have monopoly rate-setting abil ity, and they are doing it and they are using it, and it is such that it is prohibitive for people to use that for freight.

Therefore, what they are doing, for example, with Hudson Bay Company is bringing in their freight, for example, from Montreal ins tead of via the CN line to Churchill and then using it to its redistribution centre. I am just saying to the Minis ter that I am pleased that he is undertaking these discussions. What I say by good luck is that un less there can be some directive from the federal side of it where it has to come, because that is a federal Crown corporation, you will hear nic e words from CN but they really will not respond.

The non-grain dependent classification for the line was something that we had asked for a couple of years ago or supported when it came out in a report that was done. I am hopeful that will actually take place as well. I guess what I was saying earlier is, if the Minis ter does not tell us, provide the information to the commi ttee so that we can have a two-way exchange, we do not know what he is thinking, what he is working 3284

Tuesday, November 22, 1988 on. For example, if the committee is going to decide that one of the things that should be negotiated with the feds through ERDA is the stabili zation of the line for $50 million or $10 0 million, whatever it comes out to be, so that the line can possibly take hopper cars, then we could discuss that.

We do not know what is currently being planned , so I would appreciate if the Minis ter would be able to provide us with that, and maybe you should do that at the call of one of these meetings of this all-Par ty comm ittee and then provide us with what projects are being conside red so that we can respond. Otherwise we do not know what to respond to. So, I would ask him to consider that.

I guess I am supposed to, on the basis of what he said, sum up that there have been no official contacts or positions being put forward through the ERDA Mi nisters on a subsequent Churchill agreement to this point, no official specifics put forward saying this is what Manitoba wants. In other words, we are developing those positions yet, and we can expect that this commit tee will be part of that process of developing the Manitoba position. Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, the Member is wrong, first of all, when he says there has been no new initia tives.

I ind icated before that the -(Interjection)- My staff has been making subm issions to the ERDA Mi nisters who are negotiating on renewing extension, line stabilization, etc. In fact, we expect a report on the line that is due in December. I will be discussing it with the federal Mini ster after that. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman, I am not saying the staff are not doing anything in this regard.

I am asking what they are doing, when they are meeting and so on, and then I am worried if there are specific suggestions being made to the ERDA Minis ter to take to the federal Minis ter for specific negotiations, if indeed the Min ister all this time is telling us that this committee and this technical committee of his officials, plus this all-Party commit tee is going to have some input.

Either he is negotiating and it is already done- they are in the process of negotia ting, there is no function then for the committee-or they are not to that stage and he is going to give the comm ittee an opportunity to have some input.- (Int erjection)- The question is, where is it at? I guess you have to be so specific on these things. Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ind icate to the Member for Dauphin (Mr.

Plohman) that we have a list that has been submi tted, as indica ted before. lt is premature for me to make the list available at this stage of the game because the ERDA Min isters are working with it. I am prepared to give all information that does not jeopardize any sensitive area at all to the Members.

I have never felt that there was anything that I would want to hold back on this. lt is nothing that is secretive but, at this stage of the game when the ERDA Mi nis ters are negotiating these things, I think it would be probably foolish to make the issue public at this stage of the game until we have some kind of an agreement. Mr. Mandrake: The Min ister had alluded to earlier about the by-pass through Morris on Highway No. 75. 1 have been asked by the people in Morris to address this issue during Estimates.

I would appreciate an answer from the Min ister as to what does he plan on doing, going through with Highway 75 through Morris or is he going to go by by-pass? Which is it going to be? * (15 30) Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, the residents of Morris might have contacted the Member for Assiniboia (Mr. Mand rake) to bring the issue forward. I have had delegations from the Morris area, from the town, from the muni cipalities. I have been out there at meetings and they brought their concerns forward to me. I am not an engi neer and I am not going to be making that decision based on that.

What we have done is we have hired consultants who are going to be looking at various options from the point that we are at right now with Highway 75, and the instructions to the consultants are that they are going to be looking at the option, as I ind icated before, of going through Morris, around Morris, over Morris. They are supposed to figure that out and, once they come forward with their recommendations, that is when the opportunity that staff and myself will make a decision as to how we do it. Mr. Mandrake: Just one, Mr. Chairperson, just one another question on that.

This consultant that the Mi nister is alluding to- Mr. Albert Driedger: Not alluding to. He is there. Mr. Mandrake: He is there? Mr. Albert Driedger: Oh, we have hired him. Mr. Mandrake: Okay, you have hi red him, fine. Is this consultant talking to the people in Morris, or is he just going to do this as a- Mr.

Albert Driedger: I had the privilege to attend a meeting at the Town of Morris not that long ago, where I outlined to all the interested parties the process that would take place, that the consultant, the first step that he does is going to be making contact with the municipalities and develop a program in terms of how they are going to make the public aware of what is happening and then they are going to come forward at certain stages. In fact, they will be meeting with the municip ality two or three times.

There is a whole format in terms of the contacts it made, the public awareness, the information that is being sent out. lt is a very extensiv e and very efficient type of letting everybody have input into the matter. I can guarantee the Member that there are not going to be any sneaky deals pulled or stuff like that. There is going to be full public input into it and, when we have the information, we will make that in consultation with the people in the area. Mr. Mandrake: One other question on that same subject, Mr. Chairperson, when does this Minister expect that report to be tabled? 328 5

Tuesday, November 22, 1988 Mr. Albert Driedger: I am told that it will probably take till next fall some time. Mr. Mandrake: The air terminal at Churchill, is the Mini ster responsible for that air terminal? Mr. Albert Driedger: That is a federal responsibil ity. My responsibility is to lobby like crazy to make sure that the feds put the money into there, continue on doing it. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? Mr. Plohman: Just because we are being such nice guys here, Mr.

Chairman, I would not want to mention the idea of toll roads and whether that has permanently been put to rest after a talk with the Premier (Mr. Filmon) or not. So I will not get into that. I just wanted to- Hon. Gerald Ducharme: Ask him if he has ord ered the tokens. Mr. Plohman: Toll kits? Mr. Ducharme: Tokens. You know, you put them into- Mr. Plohman: Oh, the tokens. Mr. Chairman, you have to talk to your colleague, the Min ister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ducharme). He wants to know if you have the tokens yet. I just wanted to ask a couple of questions though about something else dealing with this issue.

First of all, the issue of a circle route in northern Manitoba, can the Min ister tell me what the status of that project is, the study that was being undertaken there? A number of Chambe rs of Com merce and development corporations were all hepped up on this a couple of years ago about having a circle route connecting Lynn Lake, I think, and Sherridon, a major hig hway project in the North. I just wonder if the Min ister is continuing on with his promise to open the North by constructing this road and developing tourism potential in the area and so on. Mr.

Albert Driedger: First of all, I suppose one shock deserves another. When the Member wants to talk about toll bridges, I was very careful not to talk about Pawley's Folly with the bridge. So we do not want to get into this kind of stuff. In terms of talking of opening up the North, I would like to ind icate to the Member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) that if he had been more demanding with his Cabinet colleagues and had more money put into the Highways program over the last six-and-a-half years, I would not be in this predicament where I am fighting and scrapping for every dollar to build some of these roads.

To answer his question, I am receiving the consultant's report on that study next week. Mr. Plohman: We will be following that with a great deal of interest then to see the kind of interest that the Min ister is- Mr. Albert Driedger: Correction, Mr. Chairman. Before Christmas, I believe I get the report. Mr. Plohman: Oh! Okay, that is a more realistic time line then, seeing as how he just asked about it. I just want to point out to the Mini ster that the Selkirk Bridge, which he called Pawley's Folly, was actually $10 million less than the figure his Party was using.

I think he should feel terrible about having used those kinds of figures during the election and even getting the Liberals to use those figures, which is completely incorrect-$28 million is the figure they were using, Mr. Chairman. I just wanted to ask further about the national hig hway program. When I came in, the Minis ter was mentioning that discussions were continuing with RTAC, I guess, and the Council of Transportation Minis ters with regard to a national high way program.

I know the Deputy Minis ter was very much involved in this project, in this idea and this concept from the beginning and promoting it with his colleagues. We were doing the same at the ministerial level and the officials were all, I believe, undertaking this for Manitoba in a rather aggressive way. Have there been specific developments with regard to this? • (15 40) I am particularly interested, when he talks about Highway 75, whether it would be hig hway specific if tha t wha t is going to happen.

Would it be the interprovincial routes that had the weights increased or would it be a hig hway like the Yellowhead or Hig hway 75, or would all of those that were designated be eligible under the program? I think they should be. Major interprovincial and international routes should be considered for eligibil ity, not just one or two routes. Mr. Albert Driedger: Initial ly, I made some comments before the Member got here. The identification of a national high way system, we are looking at 25,000 kilometres

whereas, under the TransCanada loan, I think we are at 7,500 kilometres. I am using round figures. What the criteria was in terms of identifying a national hig hway system was from capital to capital, in major cities, and access to the States. In Manitoba's case, it would be the TransCanada, it would be High way 75, it would be Highway 16 . Those are basically the routes.

In terms of comparison with other provinces, because of the geographic situation in our province-not geographic situation, but because of the population being conc entrated more in the southern portion, we would probably end up with less than other provinces in terms of our total system. When you consider the Yellowhea d route goes th rough Saska toon, Saskatchewan has more roads in that program than we have. Alberta has more than Saskatchewan, I believe, and British Columbia probably has the biggest portion of it, which I believe is around 5,000 kilometres themselves.

A lot of time has gone into developing this program and there has been an acceptance by the federal Mi nis ter in terms of the recommendations. The 328 6

Tuesday, November 22, 1988 interprovincial committee, of which my deputy is the chairman, is now in phase 2 which basically is to identify the benefits under that program . I can get more precise details on that for the Member if he wants . Mr. Plohman: I am very interested in this . Am I to understand from the Minister that the routes that would be eligible have already been identified? They are not the same as those that were identified under the Weights and Dimensions grid? There is much less than that for Manitoba? Mr.

Albert Driedger: The ones that have been identified under the national highway program are not the same ones that have been identified under the Weights and Dimensions system because that is more extensive . That includes highways like Highway 5. They are different roads . Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman, it includes Highways 16, 1 and 75, plus a number of other routes that were deemed to be of an interprovincial nature . That is why the Weights and Dimensions Study that was done interprovincially applied to those routes .

So therefore , the criteria, it seems to me, make sense insofar as the national highways program . What the Minister has to do is to ensure that Manitoba does not get shafted out of its fair share . Because in fact, as he has just indicated that the province would not have near as extensive a system as some other provinces . So they have already got us over the barrel here. We only have three highways that will be eligible . Mr. Albert Driedger: The weights and dimensions projection of roads was much more extensive than the national highways program . There is a reason why it was spread apart.

If you had such a gigantic system that you would throw at the federal Government, they would just totally back off . That was sort of the feeling . So they have identified they have used different criteria in establishing a national highway system, which was basically province to province, capital to capital , and access into the States. A different criteria was used because we would almost triple the roads or the kilometres involved , and it was felt that it would not be acceptable to the federal Minister in terms of establishing a national highway system if we had that many kilometres on it.

Even this is a gigantic undertaking in terms of the kilometres that have been identified in each province and have been agreed to incidentally and have been accepted by the federal Minister. Mr. Plohman: I just want to indicate that I am very, first of all, pleased that we have some acceptance by the federal Minister. I am disappointed that it is not more extensive than those three highways. We already had an agreement on 16 and have spent a substantial 'amount of dollars alone provincially on Highway 16, on the Yellowhead Route , and No. 1 of course, previous agreements in the past .

We have almost undertaken an enormous amount of money there on twinning which was much more to do. It is logical. I am not arguing with those two. Highway 75 has to be done, therefore, it is obvious that one should be included . It seems that there were other costs incurred by the province .

It seems to me that the reason-maybe the Minister could indicate if I am correct in this-it was not pushed any further, the grid system , the interprovincial system that was arrived at for weights and dimensions was not the one that was used for this purpose is that there clearly was a desire on the part of the federal Government to separate the two and not have any implication insofar as they themselves are concerned that they are responsible for any additional costs that were incurred as a result of Weights and Dimensions . Therefore , they wanted this a completely separate process .

We tried to get them to agree to it together with the weights and dimensions acceptance by the Province of Manitoba, .that they would agree to a national highways policy which would receive funding for those routes. I would suspect that they do not want to have anything to do with that obligation, so they have separated it completely so they do not have to set a precedent here or they will not set a precedent . Mr. Albert Driedger: I find it most difficult to understand how the Member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) , who used to be the Minister of Highways , says he is disappointed in the action that is taking place .

I think we are making very po.sitive action . He indicates Highway 16 cost sharing . Actually, till now, during his tenure, we had nothing permanent . It was a knee-jerk reaction based on the political pressure that came to bear which he had very little do with , because the pressure came basically from the West when that happened . I mean, when he expresses disappointment , I would have to say I am disappointed in his approach that he has taken . He always had a confrontational position with the federal Government, and I can see where he did not make any progress .

We are moving along a line that I think is a very posit ive thing, a very positive thing , in terms of identifying exactly the route system . We are looking at identifying the cost. It is done on a national basis with everybody cooperating. He is talking negatively again about nothing is going to happen with the feds . We have no participation by the feds on a permanent basis .

We are talking of establishing a system where we will identify and we will show that the federal Government has been negligent , that they have been collecting a lot of money over the years from the highways system and spent very little back. This is all being done in a very positive planned way. I feel very positive about what is going to come out of this thing . The last thing I really n·eed is a negative approach by somebody whose record was not that positive . Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman, we will watch this carefully and hope that things do come out of it. I am very hopeful that it will happen .

Clearly, it is misleading for the Minister to say that there was not a great deal accomplished in this area because there had to be groundwork laid . It was laid during the period of time- Mr. Albert Driedger: Well then, think positive about it. Mr. Plohman: The Minister should be very pleased when Members of the Opposition are looking out for 3287

Tuesday, November 22, 1988 Manitoba's int erests, because he does not have a mono poly on it at all. The other Members, both for the New Democratic Party and the Liberals also, have to bring forward concerns. I am not going to apologize at all for asking for Manitoba's fair share, and I do not necessarily agree that this is a fair share from what the Mi nis ter has admitted himself. lt is a step in the right di rection but that does not mean that he should not try to get more for Manitoba.

That is the reason I raised this because I think that is a very limited network but I am pleased, as I said, that there is progress in that area. I was raising the concern that we have incr eased weights and dimensions right across the country on a much wider network, and there are enormous cost implic ations, particularly for bridges in that system. I wanted to know if the Mi nis ter had abandoned the idea of getting cost sharing from the feds for those bridges on the rest of that network, or whether he was just going to see some potential sharing on these three routes on ly. Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr.

Chairman, the whole purpose of this whole exercise is to try and get the feds to start cost sharing on a national way that they have not done to date. That is what the whole purpose is. We are trying to do it in such a way that we will not necessarily chase them away, that they will throw up their arms and say, no way. We want to try and lead them down to this. We can always expand the program. If we ever have it to the point where we have a commi tment for cost sharing of a national hig hways system, we will have gai ned tremendou sly. lt will be a big accomplishment.

That is the objective of what we are doing, and we will continue to do that in the best possible way we can for the interests of Manitobans as well as all Canadians. Mr. Mandrake: Mr. Chai rperson, we have only got 15 minutes left in our Estima tes. I am not trying to hurry the Honourable Member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) but bickering is not going to solve our problem. Let us get down to the Estimates and get it over with. Then we can discuss it. Thank you. Mr. John Angus (St. Norbert): Mr. Chairman, a very brief question I would like to ask, and it may have been covered.

The admin istration may want to take this as notice and get back to me on it. Every year, we have a flooding problem at Pembina Highway and the La Salle River in St. Norbert. There has been some talk about the province in the twinning of Hwy. 75 and the interests of the City of Winnipeg undertaking to do some work there in exchange for a trade-off road within the City of Winnipeg jurisdiction. I would appreciate, Mr. Chai rperson, through you to the Min ister, an update on what is happening in that area so that I can advise my constituents. Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to ind icate to the Mem ber that we are in the midst of negotia tions on tha t aspect of it. Certainly any agreement we reach will involve the flooding aspect of the La Salle River. So we are right in the thick of it right now. * (15 50) Mr. Angus: Mr. Chairperson, I appreciate that and I guess I am aware of the fact that discussions have been ongoing. I certainly do not want to compromise them. Neither do I want to report erroneously to my constituents, so I would ask the Mi nis ter to have Mr.

Hryhorczuk or his deputy prepare some information that I may be able to circulate to the people in my constituency who are asking on a regular basis. That way, I can report accurately whatever it is you have got to tell me, if you would not mind. Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ind icate that once we have reached some kind of an agreement with the City of Winnipeg, I would be very pleased to forward the information, exactly what has been agreed to, to the Member and he can let his constituents know exactly what has taken place. Mr. Angus: I might not have that much time, Mr.

Chai rperson, thank you. Mr. Albert Driedger: I thought it was relatively positive when I ind icated we are negotiating very extensively on that. Mr. Angus: I am sorry. Coming to an agreement with the City of Winnip eg is sometimes a very long and arduous journey, so I wish the Minis ter luck. If I can be of any help, I would be pleased. Mr. Albert Driedger: Well, I would just like to ind icate to the Member that I thought that our initial negotiations have been relatively positive because you had the Min ister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ducharme), as well as the Min ister of Tourism (Mr.

Ernst), inv olved and they know how the city operates, but I thought we had some positive di scussions and I am looking forward to completing it. Mr. Chairman: Item 8.(a)-shall the item pass? Mr. Plohman: Just before we go to Min ister's Salary, Mr. Chairman, I want to ind icate to the Min ister, first of all, that the negotiations that are taking place with regard to the interprovincial system are very important.

Clearly, there are billions of dollars taken in by the federal Government that they are not spending on hig hways and this is cont rary, as the Mi nis ter knows, to everything tha t is taking place in many other countries, including the Un ited States. They have an extensive interstate system, and I would have thought that the Mi nister would have started negotiations, all of the Min isters, with a more extensive system, worked it down through negotiations, not worried about scaring the Min ister off, the federal Mini ster.

I want to let the Mini ster also know that I do not accept his political statement tha t I had a confrontationist approach because, in fact, that was a label that had a lot to do with politics. The fact is that 3288

Tuesday, November 22, 1988 the federal Conservative Government and before a Liberal Government but particularly the Conservative Govern ment was not in terested in seeing much accomplished with a New Democratic Government. That is a fact, that is a political statement. The Minister can use that all he wants, but it is not a reflection on the kinds of positions that we took. They were eminently reasonable positions on behalf of Manitobans, and I would encourage the Min ister to make sure that Manitoba gets a fair deal on this.

I guess the only question I would ask before closing is to ask whether the Deputy Minis ter and other officials working on this feel that our portion of high way miles, kilometres, on the 16, 1 and 75 puts us in a fair position with the other provinces, because I may have taken what the Minister said in correctly or out of context when he said that the vast majority of this is going to be in B.C., Sask atchewan and Alberta and so on. Manitoba would not be getting as great a proportion. So I guess it is a proportion of the total hig hway miles, are we getting our share? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr.

Chairman, the system has not been apportioned on the basis of population, anything of that nature, it has been apportioned on criteria which applies to all provinces the same, and it has been very hard. I think it has been the most difficult thing, it was the most important step in terms of getting everybody to agree. The Member knows full well, he has been at enough Min isters' conferences to know that to get all provinces to agree to certain criteria and then come forward with everybody endorsing it is something very difficult to do. So the criteria was established and it was applied the same in all provinces.

The one thing that happened is that some provinces got more advantage over it than others, unfortuna tely. But that does not mean that I will not proceed to look after the best interests of Manitobans. I am prepared to keep all Members updated as to exactly how we are moving on this thing. I am prepared to also bury the political hatchet and work in conjunction with all Members of this Legislature to see that we get the best benefits for Manitobans. Mr. Chairman: 8.(

a) Construction and Upgrading of Provincial Trunk Hi ghways, Provincial Roads and Related Projects, $95 million-p ass; 8.(

b) Aid to Cities, Towns and Villages, $1 ,294,000-p ass; 8.(

c) Work in Local Government Districts and Unor ganiz ed Territory, $4,300,000-pass; 8.(

d) Acquisitio n/Construction of Physical Assets:

(1) Other Projects $4,352,700-pass;

(2) Northern Development Agreement - Canada Manitoba, $51 6,000-pass;

(3) Less: Recoverable from Northern Affa irs, $5 1 6,000- pass; 8. (

e) Cana da Manitoba Churchill Agreement, $5,528,800- pass. Resolution No. 92: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $11 0,475,500 for Highways and Transportation, Expenditures related to Capital, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1989- pass. We would ask the staff to leave the table. We revert to item 1. Admin istration and Finance: (

a) Min ister's Salary, $1 0,300,00. Shall the item pass? Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to remind the Min ister (Mr. Albert Driedger) that he was going to give us an update on the God's River Airport. I do not expect him to do it right now but I would like to get that information. If he wants to give it now, I know the Deputy Minis ter has had meetings the other day that he referred to. He said he could not report on it until after that meeting, and now of course he would be in a position to.

However, if he feels it is a lot of detail that he could get into, we could do that under a dif ferent forum, whatever he wishes. In regard to the Estima tes generally, as I indic ated, because of the time requirements, limitations, we could not get into discussion on some issues in the kind of depth that I think is important. Many times, the Mi nister gave answers that were not as specific as I would like to have seen them and I want him to be aware that we are aware of that. That may be a product of the process or it may be that he just did not want to give detailed answers on facts.

I would hope that we will be able to have more opportunity to do that on another occasion, if ind eed we have another occasion to proceed with the Estimates under his tutorship as Min ister. So with those closing remarks, Mr. Chairman, I will be asking a numb er of other things of the Mini ster in the next while, and I am looking forward to a cooperative approach in approaching a number of issues that are impo rtant to Manitobans, that all of us agree are very important.

They may be a rail line abandonment issue, federal cost sharing for our hig hway system, progress and expansion of the Mobi lity Disadvantaged Program in rural areas which is so important I think, and one I did not have the chance to discuss with the Min ister, the whole issue of Churchill and its future. * (16 00) We have missed an opportunity I think in a way to put pressure during an election or before an election.

We hope now that the federal Government will ind eed follow through with a reasonable and cons tructive program on behalf of Manitobans and that we will see some results because I can assure the Minis ter, if we do not, he will really be on the hot seat in the next while if we do not see those results, him and his federal colleagues. Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, we are getting to the end of this. I hope that was not necessarily a threat. I hope that was just advice that the Mem ber was giving in terms of a hot seat.

I would like to ind icate, as far as God's River Narrow Airport is concerned, that the meeting was apparently a very positive one. We will be resolving it. I know that we are under time restraints right now. I would just like to indic ate to both critics that I felt I have always been relatively open in terms of giving information. If there is information at any given time that they feel that they want to have, certainly my office and my staff are available and I will respond. If they want more detail at any time, certainly I can provide that as well.

I accept the criticism, the fact that we have been having to sort of rush through the Estimates, because 3289

Tuesday, November 22, 1988 there is a lot of good stuff and we could have got into more detail. That is why I offer the opportunity for Members that if there are further questions that somewhere along the line we will respond with as much detail as we can. Mr. Mandrake: I am willing to pass the Salary but, before I do, I would like to put it on record that this has been a learning experience for me. I have learned a lot. I am just going to

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-1-82a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 1st hansardpdf 82a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	ee81044fd615c834acfdcd472b5e4edaf8c696ff

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