March 12,

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS

Vol. XLI No. 5

The House met at 2:00 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Lush): Order, please!

Statements by Ministers

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Employment and

Labour Relations.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, in response to the increased demand for

preventive mediation services during 1991, I am pleased to announce that Mr.

George Joyce, a conciliator with the Department of Employment and Labour

Relations, will assume the position of Preventive Mediation Co-ordinator.

This appointment will enable Mr. Joyce to focus exclusively

on the further development and delivery of the Preventive Mediation Program

which was first announced in the fall of 1990. Preventive Mediation is a

comprehensive program designed to assist labour and management in working

together towards a more productive labour relations climate in the Province. It

promotes ongoing communication and consultation between both parties to their

mutual benefit. Assistance in adoption of this program will be provided by the

experienced staff of the Labour Relations Division of the Department.

As Minister of Employment and Labour Relations, I believe the

assigning of an individual on a full-time basis to the Preventive Mediation

Program demonstrates Government's commitment to fostering a more positive labour

relations environment in the Province.

The emphasis in the workplace is clearly shifting toward

mutual problem solving. To this end, Mr. Joyce will be meeting with

representatives of employers and unions in the public and private sector

throughout the Province promoting the use of the Preventive Mediation process.

Mr. Speaker, I believe that greater co-operation between

labour and management is more important now than at any other time in our

history, since it is imperative to the survival of all of us in an increasingly

competitive economy. The Preventive Mediation Program will be of great

assistance in the realization of that goal.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Fogo.

MR. WINSOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We certainly welcome the appointment of the Preventive

Mediation Services counsellor. The only thing I have to say is that, at the rate

this administration is going, you won't need one because there will be no one

left working in the Province.

Mr. Speaker, in this House a few days ago, I am sure the

Premier fostered healthy relationships when he suggested that the union has his

head stuck in the sand. If the Premier wants to get on with better labour

relations in this Province, then I suggest that he set the leadership for this

administration. But, Mr. Speaker, we welcome the appointment and we hope, of

course, that there is going to be a lot of useful work done in the immediate

future as new contracts are signed with the different labour groups throughout

the Province.

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SIMMS: I am sorry, Mr. Speaker. I was just admiring

the photograph of the Member for St. John's South. He is following his

colleagues now and putting some ads in the paper.

I have a quick question, if I might, to the Minister of

Finance. We have had a considerable amount of time now since the federal Budget

was tabled in the House of Commons. We are nearing the end of our own fiscal

year in the matter of a couple of weeks. We have heard several dates mentioned

as the dates for the Budget - March 12; then we heard March 19; now, we are

hearing March 26, which is really near the end of the fiscal year. I am

wondering why the government can't seem to make a decision. Could it let all

those people, who are awaiting all the goodies in the Budget, know when the

Budget will be presented to this House?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

DR. KITCHEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I know that the hon. member is very anxious to know about the

goodies in the Budget, but he will have to restrain himself as best he can for

the next several days, or whatever. We will announce it when we are ready, and

as quickly as we can.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I won't pursue that because I can

see it won't get anywhere, so I will change my tactic and talk to the Minister

of Transportation with some questions.

The Minister of Transportation, no doubt, is aware of the

situation at the Wooddale farming community, in that the road out there is

impassable and, in fact, deplorable. I have talked to a number of farmers out

there. Small business farmers stand to lose thousands of dollars, and jobs could

be affected. That road is used to transport hundreds of gallons of milk to the

marketplace, thousands of eggs to the marketplace, and the problem is, the truck

that does the transportation of those products won't go in over the road. The

school bus, today, took an hour and forty minutes to get the school kids to

their first school.

I made representation early this morning, myself, to the

department out there, and I have been told that they may have a grader out there

by now. Hopefully, some time today, they will. But since this problem could

easily have been forecast and anticipated, because it happens every year, I want

to ask the minister, why wasn't his department ready to move to deal with that

critical and crucial situation today?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation.

MR. GOVER: Mr. Speaker, with respect to this particular

question, I have had some consultations with my officials on the policy for snow

and ice control. The information I have received is that the policies haven't

varied significantly over the last several years. With respect to this

particular matter, it is a matter that stands on its own unique facts. I will

have to investigate the matter and report back to the House.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, we have had a thaw now for

several days, as the minister would know. It happens every year, as he just said

himself. People out there have been complaining, trying to get hold of the

Minister of Agriculture, trying to get hold of their own member, the Minister of

Employment and Labour Relations. They are threatening to blockade the roads, and

so on. Now, I am told that the depot in Central Newfoundland was delayed in

responding because their equipment wasn't ready to address the situation. If

that is so, can the minister confirm that, in fact, the depot is short of

maintenance staff and that it is unable to respond quickly to the situation

because of government cutbacks in the Department?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation.

MR. GOVER: Mr. Speaker, with respect to confirming or

denying these particular allegations, I am having this matter investigated to

determine if, in fact, there have been cutbacks in the snow and ice control

budget. I had a look at the budgeted amount for 1991-92 and that certainly

wasn't decreased over the amount in 1991. I am having my officials go back over

the Budgets to determine if this allegation of cutbacks with respect to the snow

and ice clearing budget is well-founded, and, if it is well-founded, which I am

not convinced of, whether it is having a detrimental impact on the maintenance

of the operations in the Province. My information is that the budget has not

been significantly impacted and that the policies and procedures which were in

place for many, many years are still in place, and in all the Province and all

the roads, we have one particular road out of several thousand kilometres of

road, Mr. Speaker, I would assume the Department is doing a very adequate job.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, this is scary because, obviously,

the Member for Exploits or the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture have not

even talked to the minister about it. It has nothing to do with the snow and ice

control shortage. That is not what we are talking about. And this is not the

same as hundreds of other roads, this is a road that serves a farming community,

the agriculture industry, where thousands of dollars could be affected. Last

year the former minister now, the Member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir, publicly

committed to paving that particular road. Now, why is there any reason to

continue to add to the anxiety of those people there who are trying to make a

living, by simply putting of their announcement until the Budget, because I am

sure that is what they are up to just to make their Budget look good. It has

already been promised and why does the minister not treat that issue, the paving

of that road as a priority now? Why does he not ease their anxiety and stand up

here in the House today and say, yes, tenders will be called to pave that road.

That would assist them at least over the short-term, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! The hon. the

Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

MR. GOVER: As I have indicated previously, Mr. Speaker,

the nature of the capital program is part of the budgetary process, and the

amount of money in that particular vote I would assume will be announced by the

Minister of Finance on the day he makes the Budget speech. It is well known you

cannot pave roads in the winter.

MR. SPEAKER: Final supplementary, the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. SIMMS: It should be also well known by the Minister

of Transportation that we are not talking about snow and ice on the road, we are

talking about mud on the road. So can the Minister tell us -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible)!

MR. SIMMS: I would remind Members opposite this is being

carried live, by the way, I assure you. Mr. Speaker, can the Minister tell us

now will he get on to this issue immediately, treat it as a priority, or are

they simply going to sit back and laugh and yell as they have been doing and

treat it in that kind of a manner?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation.

MR. GOVER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I can assure the hon.

the Leader of the Opposition that my department will treat this matter with

great urgency and great despatch. Everything he has indicated and said is that

this road is unique - it is different from other roads in the Province. That is

what I indicated in my first answer. I would have to investigate the situation,

determine what the problem is, because it is unique. But we will treat it with

the urgency it deserves. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for

the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, and concerns the amalgamation

plans that his government has enacted in the St. John's Metropolitan area.

The minister will know that there have been enormous

increases in taxes for certain people. While most have merely doubled in the

former Town of the Goulds, for farmers in particular taxes have increased by as

much as ten times. Will the minister admit that the plans of his Government as

implemented in the amalgamation decisions have resulted in enormous hardship for

individuals, and what is he prepared to do about it?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs.

MR. HOGAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. No, I will not admit

any such thing, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Supplementary, the hon. the Member for St.

John's East.

MR. HARRIS: Well, now that the Minister has admitted that

a tax increase of ten times is not a hardship, I suppose he will tell us that

what the former minister said before Christmas - the former minister said that

he would be prepared to look at any anomalies and if there were special

hardships that he would see what he could do about it and devise some plans to

do it. Is the minister now saying that he is not prepared to do that? Or is he

saying to this House that a tax increase of ten times for farmers trying to make

a living is not a hardship and ought to be tolerated?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs.

MR. HOGAN: No, Mr. Speaker. What I was saying was, no, I

will not admit that the government plans are gone wherever he said they were

gone. But I am prepared, as my predecessor was prepared to do, to look at

anything that has put excessive pressure on the tax payer, and we will look at

any such things that are brought to our attention as they come to our attention.

I have followed the particular subject in the media, but nothing has come to our

department or across our desk yet that I know of to indicate what is happening,

although I can certainly believe what is happening. There is a transition team

in place or should be in place that is working with the municipal groups

involved and they will report back to the department accordingly, and we will

try to do the best we can accordingly.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I have a

question for the Minister of Fisheries. Both the Minister of Fisheries and the

Premier have said publicly that the Province recommended a Total Allowable Catch

for the northern cod quotas of less than 120,000 tons. I am wondering if the

minister would inform the House what the Provinces recommendation was for the

Total Allowable Catch?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries.

MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, the recommendation that the

Province made to the federal minister was that the Total Allowable Catch be

along the lines recommended by scientists, which in technical terms is known as

FO.1, and that is about 20 per cent of what is known as the biomass, which would

have been about 100,000 metric tons this year, and that was the recommendation

made by the Province.

Now, Mr. Speaker, included in that 100,000 metric tons we

recommended that there be an allowance made for the foreign illegal fishing that

is taking place on the Nose and Tail of the Grand Banks, which in 1991 amounted

to something like 47,000 metric tons. So instead, of course, we all know that

the minister announced a TAC of 120,000 metric tons without factoring in the

potential for foreign - I should not say overfishing - illegal fishing which we

have no reason to believe will be any less in 1992 than what it was in 1991.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. For all intents and

purposes the minister and everyone else in the Province knows that the deep sea

fishery is shut down except for the flounder fishery, and there is a few

thousand tons of cod left over for a by catch. So let me ask the minister: if

you recommended a 100,000 ton TAC then in essence the Province recommended and

was willing to accept that the sacred inshore allowance be cut. Can the minister

confirm that?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries.

MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, the inshore allowance is a paper

allowance. We all know that. For example, in 1991 the inshore allowance was

115,000 metric tons, and we all know that the inshore harvest was around 60,000

I believe.

So, we are as anxious as anybody to maintain the integrity of

the inshore allowance, and last year we came out in support of it. But, Mr.

Speaker, we are only fooling ourselves to say that the inshore allowance is

going to be 115,000 metric tons knowing full well that our chances under the

present circumstances of ever harvesting that amount are just about zero. So, it

was not a case of recommending that we tamper with the integrity of the inshore

allocation. I think common sense, Mr. Speaker, dictated that the allowance would

remain where it is, but certainly the harvest would not measure up to it.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

For the first time in the history of this Province we have a

Provincial Government that has recommended an attack on the sacred inshore

allowance of the fishery.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MATTHEWS: This is the first time in our history, Mr.

Speaker, the first time in our Province's history. This is the first time ever,

Mr. Speaker, that this Province has ever recommended touching the inshore

allowance.

I want to ask the Minister this. You recommended a total

allowable catch of 100,000 tons. That was going to cause a lot of fallout in the

fishing industry and create unemployment in this Province. What did the

Provincial Government's assessment on a 100,000 ton TAC, what were the numbers

of fishermen that would be thrown out of the fishing industry and how many fish

plant workers would be unemployed under your recommendation? Can you give us

those figures?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries.

MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, that kind of questioning on the

part of the Opposition House Leader is not worthy of the hon. gentleman. I can

say that to him now because it is just absolutely ridiculous what he is getting

on with, trying now to paint the Government in the corner in that we are

recommending that we tamper with the inshore allowance. Mr. Speaker, he is

following the same logic that his soul mate in Ottawa has been following, where

the set TACs last year, for example, they established -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. CARTER: If they want the answer, they can stay quiet

and I will give it to them, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, last year the Federal Minister of Fisheries and

Oceans came out with a great deal of flurry and fanfare and announced a TAC of

190,000 metric tons. At the time we suggested to him that it was a paper Total

Allowable Catch and, in fact, we were right because not only did we not catch

190,000 metric tons, we did not even come close to catching it. In fact, the

total harvest for 1991 was about 130,000 metric tons.

So this year the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans could just

as easily have set the TAC at 500,000 metric tons, for what good it is. So I do

not know what they are getting on with. But trying to suggest that we are in

favour of tampering with the integrity of the inshore allocation is not worthy

of that hon. gentleman, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Any time you pin

the Minister of Fisheries down, or the Premier, that is the reaction you get -

it is not worthy of a response. But once again this Government has been caught

being too slick by half.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MATTHEWS: Now if you recommended 100,000 metric tons,

the Province should have done an assessment. You have a Minister of Employment,

you have your own department, you have the Minister of Development and so on.

How many jobs would have been lost in this Province if the Federal Minister of

Fisheries had accepted the Province's recommendation for 100,000 metric tons of

fish for northern cod? How many jobs would the Province have lost?

MR. SIMMS: That's the question.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Fisheries.

MR. CARTER: The hon. gentleman should be embarrassed to

stand up in this House and talk about job losses. He should be ashamed to stand

on his feet, Mr. Speaker. Because thanks to the Government that he is

supporting, his soul mates in Ottawa, Newfoundland has lost over 5,000 jobs in

the past three or four years.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, he is here now trying to defend

the actions of his friends in Ottawa who have stood by these past four or five

years and have allowed the fishing industry in Newfoundland to be just about

driven into the ground.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible)!

MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, we had a Total Allowable -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

I want to bring some moderation and civility to the Question

Period. I again remind hon. members that Question Period is not a period for

debate, but to get information and to hold the Government accountable. I remind

all hon. members to my left and right that it is not for debating. I would ask

the hon. minister to clue up his answer very quickly, please.

MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is trying to

cover up for his friends in Ottawa who during the past number of years have

brought the Newfoundland fishing industry to its knees.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main.

MR. DOYLE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for

the Minister of Health. The minister has had his investigation completed on MCP.

The report has been in his hands now for approximately two weeks, with respect

to patients' records being confused with garbage.

We were told by the minister about a year ago that the system

was secure, that patients had really nothing to worry about. Obviously that

turned out not to be accurate. Now that the report is in, the minister no doubt

will want to tell the people what happened, where the system broke down. Would

he do that? Would he tell the people what happened, where the system failed? The

people who were supposed to have confidence in what the minister told them about

a year ago.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, as the hon. Member points out,

the report was received a couple of weeks ago. I read it very thoroughly,

examined it very closely, discussed it with officials within the Department of

Health. Then I discussed it with the chairman of Medicare and the chief

executive officer. Then both MCP and myself and officials from the department

met with the Newfoundland Medical Association, and discussed the report very

thoroughly. There are some actions which have to be taken. The Medicare

Commission will be taking them. There are some further actions which Government

will have to take, and in due course, when I have the opportunity to discuss the

matter with my colleagues in Government, we will be taking all necessary action.

As to the commitment to the people as to whether or not this

thing should happen, in theory such a thing should never happen. But in practice

we have human beings who are handling things. I suppose the only way we could be

absolutely certain would be if we were to throw out all human beings and replace

them with computers and robots. Then there might be some way to guarantee. But

as close as it is humanly possible, in as much as it is humanly possible, every

single precaution is being taken to make sure that such a thing does not happen

again.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

It is the Chair's understanding that the Member for Harbour

Main is doing the questioning and the Chair would like to keep it that way.

The hon. the Member for Harbour Main, please.

MR. DOYLE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

That is fine, Mr. Speaker. We will see what action is going

to be taken. We will be watching it very closely.

Can the Minister outline for us what action has been taken by

him, his Department, and what action has been taken by MCP to date to make sure

that the system is secure? People just don't want assurances that he is doing

it. The Minister gave that assurance about a year ago, and we know what

happened. Will he now give some of the details of what he has been doing over

the last number of months and what MCP has been doing over the last number of

months to tighten up the system?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, as I outlined earlier, I went

through some of the details of what we have been doing. Now, in the meantime the

hon. member will be quite pleased to know that in the interim we have asked MCP

to shred all paper garbage. So the reality is now that all paper garbage, even

envelopes, Mr. Speaker, which we all know do not contain too much confidential

information, at this moment is being shredded. We will continue to do that until

Government and MCP have had an opportunity to put in place some of the

recommendations which the report have made.

The hon. Member will also be pleased to know, Mr. Speaker,

that as soon as Government is finished with examining this report I will be

tabling in this House of Assembly a portion of that report, the twenty-five or

thirty recommendations as to what should be done.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main.

MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, is the Minister saying, then,

that he can say today with absolute confidence that there will not be another

breach of confidentiality between doctor and patient. If he cannot say that,

will he change to a different monitoring system for doctors' billings that does

not involve the direct use of confidential patient records by MCP?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, the only way that I could give

that assurance would be if I were prepared to abolish the Medicare Commission

and replace it with a group of robots and computers. We would have to stop

paying bills, we would have to stop making claims, and the whole system would

have to be completely changed and shelved, Mr. Speaker. Under the concept of

universal health care which we have in this nation there is always a very slim

possibility that due to human error or due to incompetence or whatever, there is

always a possibility that there will be a slip-up.

Now, the best we can do is to put in place a protocol whereby

the likelihood of this ever happening is very, very minute and very, very slim.

That has been done and that will continue to be done, Mr. Speaker. But until I

am requested by Government, or whatever, to put in place a bunch of robots or

computers who will sit down and do nothing, then I cannot make that claim. But I

can assure the people, Mr. Speaker, that this matter has been given a lot of

consideration by Government. Government is very concerned that this incident

happened, and we are taking all the steps that we can humanly take, considering

we are dealing with frail human beings in the system. As far as it can be done,

with human beings manning the system, Mr. Speaker, every step is being taken, no

stone is being left unturned, because this is a serious matter and Government is

attempting to deal with it, bearing in mind the frailty of human nature.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main, a

final supplementary.

MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, I can appreciate what the

Minister is saying, but in the interest of doctor/patient confidentiality, which

is very, very important, and since this particular incident did occur, which

should not have occurred, will the Minister now instruct MCP to obtain patient

consent before forcing doctors to break confidence with their patients -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. DOYLE: - and ship off their files to MCP which may or

may not be in secure, safe hands? Will he instruct MCP to get patient consent

now?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, the suggestion which the hon.

Member makes might sound good in theory, but in its practical application I

would suggest it would be somewhat difficult to administer. The hon. Member is

surely not suggesting that this Province would shell out $100 million without

any audit - without asking any questions? If that is what the hon. Member is

suggesting, I can appreciate why this Province is in the mess it is, if that is

the way things are going.

In practical terms, the suggestion that the hon. Member is

making will not work. One of the prices of having a universal medicare system

whereby the individual does not pay for his health care directly is that someone

has to be able to call the shots and say: this is a legitimate bill or it is not

a legitimate bill. The two go hand in hand. A universal free medicare system

must go hand in hand with a system of checks and balances. So what the hon.

Member is suggesting sounds all very good in theory, but in practice it could

not work. What we have to do is put in place the best possible system we can to

avoid such a thing reoccurring as happened just at the end of last year.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Menihek.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. A. SNOW: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is to the Minister responsible for Works Services

and Transportation. It is concerning the infamous Ossok Bridge. I am sure the

hon. Minister is familiar with the construction of the Ossok Bridge. I wonder if

he can tell me and my constituents, and the constituents of Churchill Falls,

when this bridge will be finished construction and when people will be able to

drive from Labrador City - Wabush area to Churchill, and of course vice versa

from Churchill back to Labrador City?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works Services and

Transportation.

MR. GOVER: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure of the exact

termination of construction on that particular bridge. I do not have the date at

my fingertips, but I will undertake to get that information.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Menihek on a

supplementary.

MR. A. SNOW: Mr. Speaker, on my checking with the

contractor, my understanding is that the bridge will be finished construction in

September or late August, and it will be able to be travelled on in early

September.

Now that the Minister is aware that this bridge will be

completed by that date, can he tell me if that road will be maintained

year-round next year - 1992-1993 year? Will the road be maintained?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works Services and

Transportation.

MR. GOVER: I think it is obvious to say that having

invested in a roadway, there will be some maintenance on the roadway. The exact

nature of the maintenance on the roadway will depend on the amount of funds

provided in the Budget. So we will have to wait for the Budget for that

particular decision, and we will cross that bridge - like the other bridge -

when we come to it.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Menihek.

MR. A. SNOW: I wonder if the Minister would mind being

serious. This is very important to the people of Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. A. SNOW: He may think it is funny, sitting back in

his ivory tower here in St. John's, but it is not funny to the people of

Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. A. SNOW: The people on the Island portion of this

Province do not have to wait for a budget to know that they can drive from

Gander to St. John's. They do not have to wait for the Budget, but the people in

Labrador have to wait. Now why is that?

AN HON. MEMBER: Good question!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Works Services and Transportation.

MR. GOVER: I do not know where the hon. Member seems to

think that I regard this matter as a humorous matter. As the hon. Member is

aware, the Premier met with the Happy Valley - Goose Bay Council to discuss the

completion of the Trans-Labrador Highway on Tuesday, and tomorrow morning I will

be meeting with the same council to discuss the same issue so that we can

accelerate the completion of this particular project which is very, very

important for the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, and which my department

regards as a project of the utmost importance. So I do not know where the member

gets his attitude, but as far as I am concerned as minister, I can assure the

people of Labrador that this project has a very, very high priority.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Menihek.

MR. A. SNOW: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I got the fact that he did not treat it seriously because he

was flung back in his seat laughing about the question of what maintenance was

going to be. That is where I got the attitude, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I remind the hon. gentleman that he is on a supplementary and

as I have said before, Question Period is not a time to debate and the hon.

member should put his question forthwith.

The hon. the Member for Menihek.

MR. A. SNOW: Mr. Speaker, can he tell me if there has

been Budget allocations, will the road be maintained from Churchill Falls to

Happy Valley - Goose Bay next year? I do not want to know what the meeting

schedule is for the Premier or himself, I just want to know how much work is

going to be done?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation.

MR. GOVER: Mr. Speaker, I will make every effort and do

everything in my power to ensure the maintenance on that particular

section of

road will be better than the previous administration's maintenance.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Question Period has expired.

Presenting Reports by

Standing and Special Committees

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs.

AN HON. MEMBER: Where were you for the last twenty years

on that road, Alec?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I do not know if hon. members know the routine business that

we are in now, but I have called for Presenting Reports by Standing and Special

Committees, and I have recognized the Minister of Municipal and Provincial

Affairs.

MR. HOGAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am pleased to table

in the House two financial statements including the Auditor General's financial

statements of the public libraries board for 1988, 1989, and 1990, and the

eleventh annual report and financial statements of the Newfoundland and Labrador

Arts Council. This council has completed another year of valuable work within

the artistic and cultural -

MR. SIMMS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition on a

point of order.

MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I understand we are under tabling

of reports.

MR. SPEAKER: Yes.

MR. SIMMS: The practice under tabling of reports is that

the minister tables the report with very brief comments, but I know that the

minister, in fact, has a very lengthy statement. He should have presented it

under Statements by Ministers. So if we can get clarification from the minister,

does he intent to read this lengthy statement because if he does that is not the

provision of the tabling

section of the rules.

MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the hon. the Leader

of the Opposition is correct that in the tabling of documents the practice is

that there only be a very brief comment and that the minister should not get

into any lengthy comment. There is a place for statements by ministers. So I

would ask the minister to please table his document as quickly as possible,

being as brief as possible.

MR. HOGAN: I would have to take direction from the Chair

on what is brief, Mr. Speaker. I was just going to cover very briefly two major

and important documents, one which has not been tabled for some time. There are

three reports, and they do deserve some attention. They are with the Public

Libraries Board and the Newfoundland and Labrador Arts Council. But seeing the

Opposition objects to my giving any sort of a description I will just table the

reports and sit down. Thank you.

MR. SIMMS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

AN HON. MEMBER: A big sook.

MR. SIMMS: I do not want the minister to get upset. The

point is we were just trying to bring the rules to the attention of the

minister. If the minister wants to revert to Statements by Minister, then that

is fine. We would be happy to give leave for him to do that. But the point is

that under tabling the Opposition does not get a chance to comment. You see we

have no opportunity to respond or comment on the statement that you might wish

to make; under Statements we do. So we would prefer if you are going to give

that lengthy statement that you circulated to us that we revert to Statements by

Ministers, let him make the statement, and then we will have a chance to

respond. We would be happy to do that.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To that particular

point of order.

Mr. Speaker, I would respectfully suggest that Your Honour

have someone check back through copies of Hansard and so on, and Your Honour

will find many instances where in terms of tabling reports, allowances have been

made for 30 seconds or a minute or whatever for some reports to be described in

some detail, especially when it is a report of a committee. I remember several

instances, Mr. Speaker, where a committee is tabling a report and the chairman

of the committee takes a minute or two to do a brief description of the contents

of that particular report.

So, Mr. Speaker, this cannot be construed as a ministerial

statement. It is the tabling of reports and the minister simply was going to

give a very brief description. I think the minister is absolutely right, that

the Opposition has objected to him making any comment about this, and I am sure

the minister will take the opportunity later to make his own comments to the

press about it even though the Opposition insists he not do it in the House.

MR. SPEAKER: The Chair does not need any further

submissions. The Chair is quite clear on what it has to do.

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, but I must respond to the

Government House Leader's last few comments. We are not in any way, shape or

form opposed to his making those statements, and that is what he is trying to

twist it around to appear. That is silly. We are prepared to let the minister

make his statement, but this is more than a 30 second commentary, much more, and

the rules are the rules. We have to follow them. I would prefer that the

minister make his statement and that we get a chance to respond to the statement

because they are two important issues. Now, if they want to be silly about it

and not do it, well that is fine too. It does not really matter.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The minister does not

have a ministerial statement to make, therefore the Opposition cannot give or

withdraw permission for the minister to make any such statement. The Opposition

does not control Ministerial Statements, the ministers control Ministerial

Statements, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order. The Chair has already ruled on

the previous point of order. I want to remind hon. members that there are

definite procedures in the House, definite rules and regulations, our own

Standing Orders and the Standing Orders of the House of Commons, and other

Standing Orders and regulations in other Houses that govern all of these routine

matters. There is no question, that with respect to the presentation of reports

by Standing and Special Committees it says precisely that. It is the

presentation with remarks as brief as possible. Now, I have no doubts that if we

look back in the past we could see all kinds of contingencies, all kinds of

things happen because the Chair did not call them, I expect, many times, but

this Chair is calling them. I am asking ministers, please, to co-operate when we

are presenting reports, that they be as they say, a presentation, and in this

case, brevity is the soul of wit.

The hon. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations.

MR. GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table, in

compliance with legislative requirement, the annual Report of the Labour

Relations Board for 1991 and also a series of appendices. I invite all members

to give it their attention.

Notices of Motion

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

DR. KITCHEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow move that

the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on Supply to consider

certain resolutions for the granting of Interim Supply to Her Majesty.

Answers to Questions

For which Notice has been Given

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.

MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In response to a question asked by the Member for Torngat

Mountains, the question concerned the holding of a judicial inquiry into the

unfortunate deaths at Davis Inlet in a fire. The answer to the question is

simply that according to the

Summary Proceedings Act, where a person dies and

there is reasonable cause to suspect that person died as a result of violence,

misadventure, negligence, misconduct, malpractice, or by unfair means, and some

other conditions - now, obviously, this is misadventure and would fit under this

particular definition - then a judge shall hold an inquiry to ascertain the

cause respecting the circumstances surrounding that death, so that is a natural

process. However, it goes on to say, Mr. Speaker, that notwithstanding that

particular subsection, a judge is not required to hold an inquiry in relation to

a death where the Director of Public Prosecutions notifies the judge that an

inquiry is not necessary. So, government's

part in this, then - the question

really would be, Would the government direct the judge not to hold an inquiry?

Because it would seem to me that it would be pretty automatic there would be an

enquiry. The police report surrounding the deaths is not in yet; when it is, at

that time a decision will be made. It is obvious that we wouldn't go out of our

way to direct that an enquiry not be held.

Orders of the Day

MR. BAKER: Order 1.

MR. SPEAKER: Order 1, the Address in Reply.

The hon. the Member for Stephenville.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, before I start, I am warning

the Opposition not to get me going today. The other day I was going on a very

good trend, I was speaking to a number of issues and I got thrown off a little

bit and ended up speaking on a number of things that I really didn't want to get

into, but it was as good a time as any to do it.

I believe, Mr. Speaker, the Throne Speech is one that sets

out a plan for the Province, where this government is going. The Member for

Eagle River wasn't here the other day but I commended him in his absence for his

reply to the Throne Speech. The Member for Eagle River is a good friend of mine

and a colleague and he provides a great deal of energy on behalf of his district

and on behalf of Labrador. I think he is doing a fine job and I believe his

constituents feel the same. They would have been duly proud to see him here the

other day speaking on the Throne Speech. When I meet his constituents I will

tell them the same, as a matter of fact. I am sure you will send a copy of my

speech to him, and so on. I do mean it. He put a lot of thought into it and I

must say, he did quite well.

Mr. Speaker, one economic matter I would like to touch on,

that is part of the discussion when we are talking about the Throne Speech and

where we go as a province, as we outline our plans, an industry that is not

getting much evaluation, press or debate is the forestry industry, the pulp and

paper industry.

There is in Stephenville, in my district, a pulp and paper

mill, Abitibi-Price, one of the most modern mills in the world, selling to

markets internationally, to Japan, West Germany, England, South America. This

pulp and paper mill is doing very good work. The employees are to be commended

for the job they do. Abitibi-Price has restructured in the last couple of years,

and each mill is now a profit centre or has to make a return on investment for

its shareholders. So each mill has to stand on its own as an operation, and I am

very pleased to say that the Stephenville operation is doing quite well and

their future looks very bright.

But it is a very difficult time in the world market for pulp

and paper, extremely difficult. Prices have bottomed out and have caused

companies such as Abitibi and Kruger and other companies in the pulp and paper

market to really attempt to address cost as much as they can. It is a very

difficult market. The price has dropped off over $100 per ton during the past

year or so and a number of things have affected the market. Unfortunately, it is

going to be a few more months before things start to get better. So, this year,

the mills in this Province are trying to make do the best they can in dealing

with this market situation, and I wish them the best. This government is working

with them to ensure that that occurs.

The Abitibi mill in Stephenville has done superb work and

their employees are a committed group. Everybody working together, the

employees, governments, federal and provincial, I think we will have a bright

future. But it is a big industry in the Bay St. George region and we have to see

it is maintained and has a bright future.

I would like to highlight a bit the reorganization of the

Western Community College on the West Coast, which is now seeing Stephenville as

its the headquarters. It has seen an expansion of the mandate of the college

which allows now for three-year programmes to be put into Stephenville and other

campuses, as a matter of fact. Not restricted to one year as the previous

government had done through its previous restructuring. So Western Community

College is a beneficiary of this government's new policy, and they are now able

to move ahead with planning and programming for the future, to address the

post-secondary needs of the West Coast of the Province.

I am very pleased that they are able to do that, and now they

have a mandate with which to do it. The hon. the Minister of Education, with his

new policy, I believe, has made a major contribution to post-secondary

education, and our region is one of the beneficiaries in that now. The staff at

the college can now plan and help develop programming and not be restricted to

one year programs. They can build on the base they already have and I think they

have a very bright future as they go forward. They have done a superb job over

the last number of years and we look forward to better things ahead for the

Western Community College.

Stephenville has benefited in the last couple of years in a

number of ways. Even though, with the recession, it has been tough, and the

government has been strapped for funds, the Stephenville area has done very

well, and I am pleased that they have. A lot of our work by the town council out

there and by the community futures groups - also the Stephenville Airport

Corporation, which has been promoting the Stephenville airport; a lot of good

work has been done there to promote our international airport, which has now

been designated. A lot of work needs to be done, a lot of planning has been

done. The Town of Stephenville has been able to get and to achieve a number of

municipal works that they were not able to achieve under the former government,

but this government has recognized their needs and has put some funds there to

allow them to develop the municipality. It has done that very well.

A number of infrastructure developments have occurred in the

Stephenville area. As a matter of fact, I think it is one of the regional growth

centres of the Province, and it has a bright future ahead. A lot of planning has

been done and this year looks like another very good year for the Stephenville

area. Despite the economy, overall, the area seems to be holding its own.

A number of other things have occurred that have allowed the

Stephenville area to move ahead. The construction of a new public library is

giving a big boost to the area, to the students and to the young people in

Stephenville and in Bay St. George, a library that this government has helped

fund and build, and they are very proud of that. The official opening is coming

up May 2. It is a very fine structure. The Minister of Development was in

Stephenville over the last few days and was able to see that structure.

At this time, also, Mr. Speaker, in speaking of the Minister

of Development, I want to say that we were out raising some funds for Emile

Benoit of the Port au Port Peninsula. Mr. Hodder, the hon. Member for Port au

Port, helped arrange a fundraiser and he deserves a great deal of credit for

being able to organize this fundraiser. Besides giving him credit, I have to

give some of the credit to the hon. the Minister of Development and Tourism, who

arranged to have a number of items put up for auction and who attracted a great

deal of attention while he was out there, as a matter of fact. The Minister of

Development and Tourism did a superb job on the airwaves, along with the Member

for Port au Port. I jumped in, myself, once in a while, Mr. Speaker, and I must

say, between the three of us, we were able to raise a number of dollars to help

the supporters of Emile Benoit with a CD which will now be produced in the very

near future, and hopefully, a video. They are looking at producing a video along

with the CD.

AN HON. MEMBER: And we will be in it.

MR. K. AYLWARD: And we will be in it. We didn't get that

commitment from the Member for Port au Port, but if that is the case, no

problem. The Minister of Development and Tourism always likes to get his picture

taken and likes being in videos, so I think it would be good to have him in that

video. I will bow out, myself, for the Member for Port au Port, and let the

Minister of Development and Tourism take over that job.

It was a very nice event. Emile Benoit is a character in this

Province who is a promoter of and an attraction for tourism, and now, his music

is being put on a CD forever and a day. The Member for Port au Port deserves

that credit along with the Minister of Development and Tourism, and we look

forward to seeing that CD and that project finalized in the next little while.

It was good fun, it was non-partisan and totally enjoyable for all of us to do

that.

Getting back to Stephenville, Mr. Speaker, the district,

itself, has benefited in a number of ways through this government. A new

forty-eight room hotel with a convention center is going to be constructed out

there very shortly, this spring. It is getting underway and it is going to be a

boost to the area. Again, this government supported that project through ACOA,

the first time ever that a provincial government did that. So that is underway

and looks very good for the near future.

We also have a tourist chalet, Mr. Speaker. Over $250,000 was

allocated from this government during the past two years to build a new regional

tourist chalet in Bay St. George, one of the nicest in the Province, and which

increased tourism in the area last summer to 15 per cent, and it looks well for

the future. The area out there, I think, is one of the most attractive areas of

the Province for the tourist industry. A lot of work has been done and I commend

the Development and Tourism Department for their work and their commitment to

the region. Again, that was a project that had been worked on for about eight or

nine years and hadn't gotten too far, but with the new Minister of Development

and Tourism it has gone very far. I commend him for his response to those

initiatives on behalf of the people of the Stephenville District, Stephenville

area and Bay St. George.

Also, Mr. Speaker, last year and this year we were able to

get some work done on White's Road, which is a very important road between

Stephenville and Corner Brook. Some paving of that road was done, again the

first time in seven or eight years that any work was done on that. We are hoping

again this year that there will be some paving of that road. That is a very

important connection between Corner Brook and the Bay St. George area,

economy-wise, and we are hoping that some further work will be done. It is

important and it is helping set up the infrastructure for the region. We are

hoping that is going to carry on further.

Also, Mr. Speaker, a number of other things have occurred in

Stephenville which are very positive. The announcement of a new recreational

facility, a swimming pool facility, has been made and the communities out there

are now finalizing the agreement for shared maintenance and shared construction

costs. This government has provided $1.5 million for that facility to be built

this coming year, and that means another major capital project and also a boost

for the young people of the Stephenville region, a very important one, as a

matter of fact, and we look forward to seeing that occur.

A number of other things on which we are working, Mr.

Speaker, I believe Stephenville and Bay St. George are areas that have a lot of

potential, a lot of planning has been done, we have a plan for marketing the

airport, we have a plan for the first time ever for the industrial park out

there, we also have a plan for the port, so we intend on making sure that the

area is aggressively highlighted and promoted and I hope to see that occur

during the next number of months and I think that this year we will see some

successes in the attraction of businesses to the Stephenville region during the

next few months. But again, you must have planning done in order for a community

to grow and we feel comfortable with that. As I say, the Stephenville area has a

very bright future and we are going to continue to work with this Government and

work with the Federal Government and the municipal leadership to make sure that

occurs.

Mr. Speaker, before I clue up my remarks I want to go back to

the economy in general. In order for Government to pay for services for the

people in this Province, the economy has to be vibrant and has to be planned.

This Government is planning the economic future, it is working hard to develop

the economy and one of the major aspects of that economy of course, is a vibrant

and healthy fishery. We have to get joint management from the Federal Government

as soon as possible, we have to get a fisheries joint management board which

will allow us to have some say in what occurs in the fishery, that has to happen

in the near future. This crisis has identified that as the major problem I

believe, and I think it is time that the Federal Government recognized the need

for joint management in this Province.

This Government has been presenting proposals to the Federal

Government to see that happen and I hope that will occur. I could support the

Government in doing that and I believe that if we were able to achieve that

process, the future for this Province and for its fishery and for its people

will be very positive and I believe we are on the right track and I look forward

to seeing this Government, the Premier and the Cabinet keep putting forward

forcibly, the proposals required and the arguments required to ensure the

Federal Government listens to us.

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak on the Speech from the

Throne and to outline my concerns and my view of where we are heading, I look

forward to debate as it continues and the constructive speeches that will

follow. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for LaPoile.

MR. RAMSAY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, it seems the tide has changed, the Opposition

who are always speaking of a Government who choose not to speak at given times

because of the foolish games that are played often in Parliament in general by

Oppositions. They refuse to stand and speak now and because of that we have to

put two up in a row which is almost unheard of, especially on a Throne Speech at

a time when Newfoundland is suffering through a very difficult time in its

history, that the Opposition would choose to take this kind of silliness and

play the little games that are played.

The problems in the fishery: Mr. Speaker, because of the

allowance that the Speech from the Throne allows all hon. members to speak about

a variety of different topics because it really covers the whole of the

Newfoundland economy, it would make one wonder if this was a crisis that just

started out here now throughout the Province and we look at the West Coast, and

specifically my electoral district on the southwest corner of the Province, the

district of LaPoile.

Now the West Coast has been suffering and experiencing the

general problems of the fishery for the last four to five years and as hon.

members will know, in my many speeches here in this House and the many different

resolutions that I have brought forward concerning the fishery matters on the

southwest coast, one only has to look at the problems that we have experienced

in our area. Currently, again as in the past, the northern cod by virtue of the

size of the cod stock and also by virtue of the size of the overall fishing

activity that takes place on the Grand Banks of Newfoundland and with the

smaller Gulf fishery along the west and southwest coast of the Province taking a

lower precedence I suppose by the media, but still no less a problem.

It exemplifies the fact that federal management policies in

running the fishery has essentially brought us to our knees as a Province and as

a people, and the problems with the southwest coast fishery are far reaching and

have, although been supported by Federal Government initiatives in the past,

this last year they chose not to accept the winter fishery failure of 1990, 1991

as being a failure at all. They denied the people of my district and the people

of some other districts: the hon. the Member for Fortune - Hermitage, and the

other hon. members affected by this, the hon. the Member for Burgeo - Bay

D'Espoir. Their constituents along with my own were denied any federal response

whatsoever.

The Province, out of a program which we initiated in October

or November of last year, we brought in a program, which I might add was very

welcome to the people of the Province. This program, and I looked at some of the

figures relating to it, the Federal Government spent I think about $9. some

million, the Provincial Government spent in excess of that, near to $11 million,

in an emergency response program for the people in the Province. And the hon.

Opposition speaks of us not doing anything when, in fact, we at times, although

we should not have to, Mr. Speaker, but at times here we are outspending the

Federal Government in responding to a matter which was not of our making.

Now granted, our response was not necessarily fishery

related. We tried to avoid fishery related matters and allow the employment

response aspect to address the problems of the non fishery sector. This was, of

course, the case. The only other part of our program where we put monies into

the development of infrastructure for fishery related projects, the hon. the

Minister of Fisheries and some very capable people in his department were very

helpful in providing funds for a couple of projects in our district, which

although being worked on by non fishery related people were fishery related

projects insofar as the infrastructure that was being developed. This was very

welcome to the district and of course it was a response.

Now looking at that to the point where we are now, we have a

huge dark cloud looming overhead with regards to the pending economic results

and the effect that these economies will have on the overall treasury of the

Province, the effect that this situation will have on the people of the

Province, and of course our ability to provide services. It is a huge problem

and again it is being avoided and dealt with in a manner that is not really the

way that it should be dealt with in my mind.

The hon. John Crosbie and the Prime Minister have chosen to

say that existing programs will address the problem. Now, Mr. Speaker, existing

programs I do not think are going to help us solve the problem. The monies that

are already allocated there, we are talking a huge catastrophe in the fishery

insofar as the amount of fish that will be caught. That in turn will have a down

line in affecting business people in the communities. It will affect the

provision of services to the communities, and it is just going to have to be

addressed by the Federal Government. They should not be allowed to get away with

crawling away quietly and hoping that nobody notices that they are not

addressing the problem. Maybe it has to do with the Minister of Fisheries lack

of strength in the federal cabinet now. You know it has been written recently

that the Federal Minister of Fisheries and Oceans has lost some of his support.

He has possibly been tossed to the side and seen as a bit of an aberration that

they only have to deal with when a problem comes up, and not necessarily the

kind of minister that carries a lot of weight with him, and because of that all

of Newfoundland is left to suffer.

Mr. Speaker, this just has to be brought out. People do have

to realize that the Minister of Fisheries is our man in Ottawa insofar as the

person who should have the ability to provide what needs to be provided due to

Federal Government mismanagement. This is not the case. The fact of the matter

is that the Federal Government is choosing to sidestep the problem. The Federal

Government has chosen to say existing programs will do. We will try to address

things as we go along.

Currently this Government, as expressed by the hon. Minister

of Employment and Labour Relations just yesterday, has given the go-ahead and is

ready to roll with a program should the Federal Government come forth, sit down

with us and start working on a response program. We have our homework done. We

have everything in place ready to go, and the Federal Government still chooses

to want to wait until a crisis develops.

There are a few things I was going to mention - one of course

being the offshore situation beyond the 200-mile limit with the problems that

exist on the Nose and Tail of the Grand Banks. There is a lot of activity on

this front. The Premier was recently speaking on this topic, and as well meeting

with the Prime Minister recently where the position of the Provincial Government

was put forward very clearly. Also, on Monday I understand a speaking engagement

in Vancouver at Globe 92 to hopefully draw more attention. Several colleagues of

mine also were involved in a nationwide Newsworld TV show last evening putting

forward the position of the Provincial Government - the hon. Member for Baie

Verte - White Bay, a man with a lot of experience as a fisherman and as a person

with a strong interest and dedication to the sealers of the Province through his

past association with the Canadian Sealers Association. All of this information

will serve well to get public opinion on our side.

Now we do have a lot of different agendas, I suppose you

could say. There are a lot of different interest groups who want to make sure

that they put the best face on this, and this is the kind of thing that has to

come together. We have to unite behind the leadership of Premier Wells, bringing

everybody together in a strong concerted approach to garner public opinion here

in the Province and as well to help get the public opinion of the people of

Canada. I think they are just waiting for the proper explanation of what is

going on. They seem to be very sympathetic towards our cause, and also we are

hearing nothing but good from most of the people of the country.

I feel that with a strong, consistent, concerted effort on

the part of everybody concerned we can turn this thing around. We can put

pressure on the Prime Minister, and as well put more pressure on the Federal

Minister of Fisheries and Oceans to make sure that our concerns are addressed;

that the financial requirements of the people of this Province are not denied by

the Federal Government - the Government responsible for the management of the

fishery - and also to make sure that this kind of catastrophe never happens

again; something that joint management of the fishery by the Federal and

Provincial Governments working together, bringing about the knowledge of

fishermen which, if it had been heeded in the past, possibly this catastrophe

would not have happened - the fishermen who have been telling the Government

representatives for years and years and years that the decimation of our cod

stocks was at hand. I know that out in my own hometown for years and years we

were hearing of small fish being caught. The number of fish per 100 pounds was

increasing rapidly. For a 100 pound block, the number of fish - of course the

fish were getting smaller and smaller and smaller, some of this due to the

problems of the gear types that were being licensed. Other problems for other

reasons, and of course the decimation of the cod stocks was making fishermen

concentrate their efforts on the smaller number of fish that were available. By

doing all of this, we will work very hard towards a collective consciousness.

A lot of you may have read the story about a group of animals

who gradually learned to do a variety of tasks. It had to do with the

chimpanzee. The chimpanzee, of course, has provided the scientific world with

the tribal explanation of what collective consciousness can mean. It is

happening worldwide now with the environmental collective consciousness that

people all over the world are starting to realize that environmentally we do

have a problem in the world, and we have to address it. Of course, our efforts

insofar as the collective consciousness that is required for the fishery issue,

with respect to the environmental aspects of it. We have an ecosystem that is

totally out of balance; you have an increase in the number of seals which is

very possibly as a direct result of the lack of a seal hunt of any great extent;

and as well the depletion of the cod stocks has brought these animals down

closer and into areas where they have rarely if ever been seen before.

So it is obvious that the whole system is out of whack. We

hope and pray that the preponderance of these animals will not bring about an

increase in the parasitic problem that exists in some waters where seals are

very abundant currently, to a point where it can cause very severe and serious

damage to our fishery now and in the future if this type of infestation would

continue and of course grow.

Mr. Speaker, there are a few other things that I did want to

say. One of course has to do with the weak international representations made by

the Federal Government. I do understand that the Minister of Fisheries and

Oceans is making representations to the United Nations. I wish him all the luck

in the world. But I do feel that with the support and the encouragement of the

Prime Minister, as someone who stands beside us, fighting for us, we would have

far greater ability to make our positions known internationally. The Federal

Government has certainly shown a weakness to deal with matters of international

concern. Currently we look at the problems of NAFO countries fishing within our

Two Hundred Mile limit, and of course outside of our Two Hundred Mile limit, on

the Nose and Tail of the Grand Banks.

This of course is a concession given to the international

community because of Canada's position within the international trade relations

forums and the trading of goods and services between the various countries. That

is understandable. But still, Canada has to be able to stand tall. It is the

custodian, so to speak, of the Grand Banks of Newfoundland. It should entertain

efforts to seek custodial management of the waters that are being overfished so

dangerously by Spain, Portugal and Germany. In doing so I feel we will make sure

that we can guarantee the future for future Newfoundlanders - my district

constituents, constituents of all hon. Members, and the people of the future who

have yet to arrive. Hopefully we can make Newfoundland a better part of Canada

for them through some very strong efforts that we would certainly be better off

in pressuring the Prime Minister to make.

A couple of little quotations that I have here. One of course

is a quotation, and it speaks very much of a disciplined effort on our part. If

we undertake to bring everybody together, to bring together the different

fisheries' unions, to bring together the various interest groups throughout the

Province, and hopefully have them all speak with one tongue, to speak with one

common voice, to speak and work through the Provincial Government and through

the efforts of the union for fishermen and fish plant workers, and the other

unions in the Province which represent some fish plant workers throughput the

Province, both the UFCW, the FFAW and as well our Provincial Government, our

Federal representation in the Federal Government through John Crosbie and Ross

Reid, the two hon. Members, this disciplined effort is something we will have to

strive towards, and the quote goes something like this: for every disciplined

effort there is a multiple reward.

The multiple reward would be a reward only back to what we

honestly deserve as Canadians, as Newfoundlanders, and as a people of this

earth. Because it is a resource that is a property of the people of the earth,

it is a resource that is the property of all of the world, all of the world's

people, and this resource is something that we, as Canadians, will have to

undertake to manage. Because it appears that economics are wreaking havoc with

the overfishing that is happening inside and outside the Two Hundred Mile limit.

Once the custodial management is to be taken then for Canada

to exercise its efforts to patrol that properly, the efforts of the armed

forces. Currently they are wondering what to do with the defence dividend. Well,

I can come up with good things to do with the defence dividend.

The downsizing of the Armed Forces and the re-allocation of

efforts that the Forces may need to put into a lot of different areas of the

country. Bring them back from Europe. Maybe we have found the ideal function for

these people in our Navy. We can put them to work out there patrolling the seas.

What a great place to find fisheries observers, Mr. Speaker. If we speak of the

problems of finding fisheries observers we have plenty of fishermen in

Newfoundland and fish plant workers who are having difficult times, who could be

trained to work, and as well that could be supplemented by the people we are

already paying through the public treasury, the Armed Forces personnel who may

be able to supplement that and provide us with the much needed fisheries

observers who can be out there on vessels.

Mr. Speaker, the other thing I wanted to get into a little

bit has to do with the overall economic policy of the Well's Government. Our

Government has undertaken to try to diversify the economy through the provision

of Enterprise Newfoundland and Labrador Corporation. This Corporation has

attempted to do an inventory of what they are able to do through the Economic

Recovery Commission's efforts, and as well, I understand, I think the hon.

Minister of Development noted that some 400 small business opportunities were

assisted last year alone, 400 or more. This is a welcome thing. This is the kind

of job that will last, it is the kind of job that will provide useful and

meaningful employment to Newfoundlanders who make efforts to get out there and

become an entrepreneur, to undertake efforts, take a bit of risk, and hopefully

the assistance that Government can provide in this area will be the thing.

Now, in bringing that into the fisheries argument we have a

situation where we are going to have a lot of people out of work in the fishery

over the next number of years. Mr. Speaker, this is certainly something that is

going to have to be looked at, and a lot of these individuals are going to be

seeking assistance from the Minister of Development's Enterprise Newfoundland

and Labrador. They will be seeking assistance to help in starting their own

businesses, they will be seeking assistance to get involved in a variety of

activities. I look forward to helping some of my constituents who are interested

in getting involved in business, in assisting them with their business planning,

in assisting them with some of their ideas, bringing the resources of Government

through the library at Enterprise Newfoundland, the resources we can make

available with some of the help and assistance that MHAs generally do provide

their constituents, and giving some advice, encouragement, and support to these

individuals who will undertake entrepreneurial activities to find their way out

of the fishery crisis.

Mr. Speaker, I also have a small quotation here that I want

to finish with. I am known, I suppose, for interspersing an inordinate amount of

quotations with some of my speeches here in the House but I feel this one is one

that we will be best advised to follow if we are to be of any benefit to the

people of the Province throughout this crisis period. It speaks of commitment

and it has to do with an expedition to the Himalayas by W.H. Murray who, when he

was on his second Himalayan expedition, was quoted and it starts, 'Until one is

committed there is always hesitancy, the chance to draw back always

ineffectiveness. Concerning all acts of initiative and creation there is one

elementary truth, the ignorance of which kills capitalist ideas and splendid

plans. That the moment one definitely commits oneself then providence moves,

too. All sorts of things occur to help one that would never otherwise have

occurred. A whole stream of events issues from the decision raising in ones

favour all manner of unforseen incidents and meetings and material assistance

which no man could have dreamt would have come his way.'

Hopefully, Mr. Speaker, this is the kind of providence and

divine intervention that will assist us in our efforts to help the people of the

Province in solving the crisis that effects them so drastically and which will

have a negative implication for all Newfoundlanders. Hopefully through hard

work, determination and a collective consciousness we can put our efforts

forward and help to solve this problem, and encourage those in the Federal

Government who are responsible for the mismanagement of the fishery, those in

the Federal Government representing this Province, to make sure that they leave

no stone unturned in trying to find the resources that are necessary to assist

our people through this very dark time.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia

West.

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I do not know what we are going

to do with the Member for Placentia. I really do not know what we are going to

do with the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. The only problem I

have with the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs is I am afraid he is

going to indulge heavily in the pork-barrelling of capital grants, Mr. Speaker.

That is the problem I have with the Minister of Municipal and Provincial

Affairs, that he will indulge heavily into the pork-barrelling of capital

grants. I would just as soon see him leaving the Chamber while I am speaking,

Mr. Speaker, as staying in here.

So I would really like to see if the Minister -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: That is not parliamentary either.

Mr. Speaker, I want to say a few words in this debate. I do

not plan on being very long. A half hour, I think, is what I have. Mr. Speaker,

first of all I want to do what most people do when they speak in the Throne

Speech Debate and that is to congratulate the mover and the seconder. Mr.

Speaker, I have to say that the mover and the seconder of the Throne Speech did

a fairly good job. There is nobody who can say they did not. The Member for

Eagle River, Mr. Speaker, did a good job articulating the problems that his

district has been experiencing, when he moved the Throne Speech. The only thing

that I saw different this year, Mr. Speaker, is the mover took more time than

His Honour did in reading the Speech From the Throne, but there is nothing wrong

with that either. The member wanted to state the concerns of his district.

MR. MATTHEWS: He had more content in his speech than

there was in the Throne Speech.

MR. TOBIN: Yes, that is right. He wanted to explain the

problems of his district and the contents of his speech certainly had a lot more

meaning than the Throne Speech itself. The hon. member had more to say and the

content of his speech was more significant than that which was contained in the

Throne Speech.

MR. BAKER: Are you criticizing His Honour?

MR. TOBIN: No, I am not criticizing His Honour. I have a

lot of respect for His Honour, let me say to the Government House Leader. But I

doubt very much if His Honour wrote this. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, I

would say His Honour had difficulty trying to read it, because there is

absolutely nothing in that Throne Speech. It is the worse Throne Speech, Mr.

Speaker, that I have ever seen.

Now, if there is any significance in this, the only part that

said anything was probably environment. I must say that I have received some

calls from my own constituency wondering what all the policies meant on

environment, particularly the use of all terrain vehicles.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Yes. Why?

Mr. Speaker, the Member for LaPoile is up to see what the

hon. Government House Leader thought of his speech, and I can tell him, he was

over here talking to us and did not even listen to you.

Anyway, Mr. Speaker, I do want to sincerely and very

genuinely express my congratulations to the Member for Eagle River and the

Member from Carbonear, who seconded the Speech from the Throne.

There are a couple of very important issues facing the

Province today, and one of them, Mr. Speaker, is the fishing industry. There is

no doubt that this Province, at this point in time, is being severely

challenged, in terms of our main economic base, the fishery. I am sure that

those of us who are familiar with the fishery - and to a large extent a lot of

us, with the exception of the Government House Leader and some other people,

represent fishing constituencies. In my own case I represent I guess a mixture

of a fishing district, where we have a deep-sea plant in Marystown, we have a

secondary processing plant in Burin, and a sort of an inshore plant in Baine

Harbour.

As I have travelled throughout my district in the past few

days, and I was basically born in a fishing community, a fishing town, as the

Minister of Fisheries readily knows. I come from a background of fishing, I can

tell the hon. Member. I remember well when my father was a fisherman. As a

matter of fact, my father and my uncle were both fishermen, both of them at a

very early age. Both of them at a very early age had tickets.

AN HON. MEMBER: Tobin's Point is called after

(Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: That's right. Tobin's Point is called after my

uncle, down over the Grand Banks. Mr. Speaker, I remember well when my father

went on to - in the latter years he went into business - but for many years my

father was on the vessels. Both my father and my uncle had their tickets. My

uncle spent his entire life as a fisherman. We dealt with fishermen all our

lives. As the Minister of Fisheries just pointed out, Tobin's Point was named

after my late uncle who spent many years as an inshore fishermen, as a trawler

captain, and as, I guess for some time, on these sixty-five footers, gill

netting. Or trawling and gill netting.

My brother spent more time out to sea than I did on the

draggers and worked with Fishery Products as a chief engineer on some of their

vessels. While I did not spend much time involved in the fishery I can say that

I have been there when we hauled traps and gill nets, and I have seen - like my

colleague for St. John's South - the cod end untied as well. But we are not

going to be boastful of any great industrious life in the fishing industry, but

we have been around it.

So the other thing that I have is a significant number of

friends, and some very close friends, involved in the fishing industry. The

fishing industry, let me say to the Minister of Agriculture. Some great friends,

good friends, good men, hard working men. I can think of some people whom I talk

to a lot about the problems facing the fishing industry today. People like Kurt

Mitchell (?), probably the senior captain with Fishery Products for a number of

years, all his life. He just retired last year, or a couple of years ago. A

great fishermen. I wonder how much fish did he catch over the years. I talked to

Captain Byron Adams, another retired fishermen, who spent some time skipper of

the research vessels.

The more you talk to these people the more frustrated you can

become regarding the fishing industry. For example, they told me back in the

late 'sixties, 1968 or 1969, that they could not get a big trip of codfish. If

they went to the Grand Banks, they were probably catching other species.

Flatfish, haddock, whatever the case might be. But a big trip - a mixture of

cod. So, a mixture of cod. If you had 1,500 pounds of codfish during those two

years you had an awful lot of cod. As a matter of fact one fellow told me that

if you went out on a trip you could not promise someone a feed of codfish coming

in because you did not know if you were going to get either one or not.

AN HON. MEMBER: What were they fishing for then? Haddock?

MR. TOBIN: Yes, and flatfish. But 1,500 pounds in two

years was as much codfish as they ever brought in in one trip. Mr. Speaker, the

next year they told me there was more codfish than you could ever imagine.

AN HON. MEMBER: Where?

MR. TOBIN: There was a two year period where there was

none.

MR. MATTHEWS: Where? In the woods, boy. In with the

spruce budworms.

MR. TOBIN: On the Grand Banks.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Yes, and I say to the hon. member that in the

past month or so they have been catching steak cod, the biggest kind of steak

cod, out in the gullies (inaudible), all kinds of codfish, Mr. Speaker, the

biggest kind, steak cod. This time of the year, the first half of the year, the

draggers always went down over the edge of the bank. Always, Mr. Speaker, that

was where they got their trip of fish, on the Nose and Tail of the Grand Banks.

But now they can't do it anymore, because when the 200-mile limit came in,

Canada controlled what was inside the 200-mile, and control outside the

200-mile, which included the Nose and Tail of the Grand Banks, was given to NAFO

to manage - of which we are a member. But we can't go out there because we drew

the line across, basically. Canada was inside and the rest of the world was

given the outside of the Grand Banks. I am sure my colleague from Baie Verte -

White Bay realizes what I am saying.

The rest of it, Mr. Speaker, was given to the international -

to the world. That is the problem we have today. Today, foreign boats are

outside the 200-mile limit doing exactly what they want to do with no regard for

NAFO, no regard of anyone, Mr. Speaker, except themselves. The problem we are

facing is how do you get them out? How do you remove them from international

waters? That is the problem.

Mr. Speaker, I have heard a lot of suggestions but I have

never heard the answer, and I wish someone would come up with one sooner rather

than later because, if not, the fishery in this Province is going to be

decimated.

I look around, Mr. Speaker, and think about the area that I

represented for the past ten years. Just look back somewhat beyond that. Look

back some years ago to the deep-sea fishing industry in this Province. There

were plants, Mr. Speaker, Job's had plants in St. John's - I am sure my

colleague from St. John's South is familiar with that - with five or six good

trawlers. They were old side trawlers, but there was the Blue Wave, the Blue

Mist, the Blue Foam, the Blue Spray. And then, Mr. Speaker, you had the other

group come in, Ross Steers, I believe it was, who brought in a lot of old side

trawlers, as well, until they progressed. And NatSea played a big role.

Trepassey was -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: No, before it there was Fermuse that operated

a deep-sea plant, and Trepassey operated a deep-sea plant. Arnold's Cove never

had draggers in the last few years. There have been fish landed there, but I

don't think there have been draggers or trawlers assigned to Arnold's Cove, as

such. And there were Marystown, Burin, Fortune, Grand Bank, Harbour Breton,

Ramea, Gaultois, Isle aux Morts, and Catalina, all of these places.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: No, I don't think Port aux Basques ever had

deep-sea trawlers attached to the plant. They processed some. I think some of

the Burin boats landed there over time. But, you had all of this -

MR. MATTHEWS: You know more about that than all of them

put together over there.

MR. TOBIN: You had all of this, Mr. Speaker, in this

Province, in the deep-sea sector, and this week, the plant in Marystown and, I

believe, the plant in Ramea, are the two plants that are operating.

MR. MATTHEWS: Fortune is down, I believe.

MR. TOBIN: Fortune is down this week and Marystown could

be going down very soon.

But those are the problems. And I wish the Minister of

Fisheries were listening to what I have to say, because I listed the fourteen or

so deep-sea plants that were operating in this Province, creating livelihood for

a lot of people. And this week, the Marystown plant and, I believe, the Ramea

plant are the only two plants operating in this Province.

MR. MATTHEWS: Fortune is down, trying to give Ramea ten

weeks.

MR. TOBIN: That is right. The people involved in the

deep-sea fishery in this Province have been paying a price over the past number

of years. They have taken their share of responsibility and their share of

disappointments, I guess, while we throw them on the unemployment rolls in this

Province. They are hardworking individuals, the people who man these trawlers,

hardworking individuals, Mr. Speaker, who are away from home for twelve months

of the year. They get in for forty-eight hours. And in the case of some of the

draggers now - for example, the Trepassey people who moved to Marystown and are

fishing out of Marystown - when you take out their driving time, they probably

have a day at home, or a day-and-a-half, if they are lucky; that is what the

trawlermen of this Province are doing.

Today, if there is a gale of wind and they are coming in

under the land, they are up twenty-four hours, probably, trying to beat through

ice and get home safely. There have been men lost - no one knows better than my

colleague from Grand Bank, the disasters that have taken place in that community

over the years - while they were giving their all for their communities, for

their towns, for their people, working hard to survive. That is what the

trawlermen of this Province were doing and are still doing.

What about the thousand people in Catalina who just last week

got lay-off notices? - men and women who worked in the plants, the trawlers tied

up to the wharf. What about them, Mr. Speaker? Have I heard anyone going out and

saying - it is not enough to say we sympathize with them. Has anyone said what

he is going to do to help out the thousand people in Catalina who worked in the

plant and the people who manned the trawlers? - who are not just from the

Catalina, Port Union area, but from all over the Province, including my own

constituency and my former hometown of Trepassey.

Just recently I saw one of my old classmates, Captain

McCormick, and I am sure the hon. the Minister of Fisheries knows his family

well, too - they were great supporters of him. It was Captain McCormick who

picked up the two pilots from the American plane. I must say, I was extremely

proud to see Jack play such an important role. It is nice to see someone you

know so well, with whom you grew up and went to school, showing such leadership.

He, among others, including Brother Cumben from Grand Bank, and I think, another

gentleman from the Port Union area, risked their lives to save two other people.

But that is what the trawlermen in this Province have been

doing all their lives and I can tell you, I am proud of them, every last one of

them. I was proud of my uncle who made his living in the fishing industry for

many years. I am proud that Tobin's Point, a part of the Grand Banks, is named

after him. It was called after him because he spent his lifetime, basically, in

that area. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of fisheries recognized it, everybody

referred to it. It was on the initiative of the Minister of Fisheries, and I

will give him full credit - he wrote to the appropriate people and asked to have

Tobin's Point, 'charted', I think is the word. It was done as a result of the

initiative of the Minister of Fisheries, who knew my uncle very well, by the

way. He knew my late uncle very well, and he can tell you that he was a great

man.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: I don't know what he would have done had he

been alive when they named it after him, but I am sure it would have been reason

for him to have a party. It would be just cause for him to have a party on the

way home from St. John's.

AN HON. MEMBER: Every port, I guess.

MR. TOBIN: He would probably have dropped into every port

going.

In any case, Mr. Speaker, that is the type of people I have

always known, involved in the deep-sea fishery in this Province. And it is down

now to basically two plants open this week.

MR. MATTHEWS: Harbour Breton is open, I suppose.

MR. TOBIN: I am not sure if Harbour Breton is still

involved with the redfish. I don't know if they were open or not last week.

MR. MATTHEWS: I would say they are.

MR. TOBIN: Now, the slow-down in the deep-sea fishery in

this Province, and the fact that the quota has been cut substantially over the

years and trawlers have been tied up, in view of that, one should drive by the

Burin plants where they have all the old trawlers tied up. There are probably

twenty trawlers from the old Burin operation, from the Trepassey operation, and

from the Marystown operation, that are now tied up in Burin - tied on - I guess,

basically, ready to go. You have all of the plant trawlers that are in the

Catalina operation tied up down in Catalina. In addition to that, five more were

just taken out in Marystown. Five more trawlers were just taken out of the

Marystown operation.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Yes, they did commission five trawlers in

Marystown, but after Christmas, they went back. The TAC was readjusted, the

Catalina plant closed and the trawlers were tied up. In addition to that, five

more trawlers were taken out of the Marystown operation. They would be newer

trawlers, basically, the Claire and the Lindsey; I think these are the ones that

were taken out of operation, the five newer ones - they were ice-strengthened

and involved in the Northern Cod fishery.

So, Mr. Speaker, what you have is a displaced crew, right

now, of probably thirty-five or forty trawlers in the last year.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) NatSea.

MR. TOBIN: NatSea in St. John's - five trawlers in St.

John's that have been displaced - the plant closed down in St. John's. The plant

closed in St. John's; the plant closed in Grand Bank; the plant closed in

Trepassey; the plant closed in Gaultois - permanently, for all we know.

Hopefully, it will change. Hopefully, they will find something. But, as deep-sea

plants, the traditional deep-sea plants, the wet-fish trawlers as we have known

them, have gone, unless the stocks rebuild, and I don't think that is about to

happen this year or next year, to put them back in place.

The deep-sea fishery in this Province has, indeed, been

drastically affected by the reduction in quotas, as has the inshore fishery, I

am sure, because one time the inshore fishery caught the fish. What you have now

is an allocation of fish for the inshore fishermen in this Province. I guess

they are probably catching a little better than half of what they are catching

in terms of the fishery in this Province. So, there is no doubt about it. The

entire mess that the fishery is in is affecting the deep-sea fisherpersons and

the inshore fisherpersons. There is no doubt about that. The inshore fishery and

the deep-sea fishery have been affected.

How do you, tomorrow, close every plant in this Province?

What do you do for the people? I have never heard anyone say what should be done

for the people of Catalina, who have been displaced. I have heard a lot of

people say the plant should have been closed, but I never heard anyone say what

should have been done for the people of Catalina and the 1,000 people who work

in the plant.

AN HON. MEMBER: No.

MR. TOBIN: No, Mr. Speaker, and I have never heard the

member say, either, what should be done for the 1,000 people who have been

thrown out on the streets in Catalina.

AN HON. MEMBER: What do you think should be done?

MR. TOBIN: What do I think should be done? I think this

government - this Government of Newfoundland and Labrador - are the ones who

have the responsibility for the men and women who work in the fish plants and

the fishing industry in this Province. For too long they have washed their hands

and said it is all Ottawa's fault. It is time that we show more leadership in

running this government than running down over some ski slope in the Province.

It is time that the leadership be shown for the men and women of this Province

rather than the ski slopes -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) downhill now.

MR. TOBIN: No, I am not. I have nothing against - as a

matter of fact, the ski slopes are a tremendous benefit for the tourist industry

in this Province, but it is not the place for the Premier to be spending his

time. Where was he when they announced the reduction in TAC and the closedown of

the fish plants in this Province, and the tie-up of trawlers? Where was the

Premier? Going downhill. He was going downhill on a pair of skis. That's where

he was, not one bit concerned about the men and women involved in the fishing

industry, never the one bit - no compassion, no caring - nothing, skiing

downhill, sliding downhill, the same as his government is doing in the polls in

this Province in the last little while.

AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, ho, ho!

MR. TOBIN: Oh, ho, ho! I can tell you, if you saw it you

wouldn't laugh either, and you will see it eventually. That is where they are

going.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, if it is, it is on one of

those buckets. What do you call those things that bring you up to the ski

slopes?

AN HON. MEMBER: The ski lifts.

MR. TOBIN: If you are going up, it is on a ski lift.

Now, Mr. Speaker, that is what is going on in this Province.

The Minister of Finance over there doesn't know what he is going to do with his

Budget. The Province is in such a mess since this group came to office. Who

could ever believe that since this crowd came to office, we would have the

Trepassey fish plant and the St. John's fish plant closed, and this government

doing nothing, absolutely nothing about it.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Oh, the Member for St. John's South, I didn't

say him, I didn't say he was doing nothing about it; I didn't say that, nor

would I, because I know the difference. But this government has done nothing

about it, Mr. Speaker, absolutely nothing. The Member for St. John's South knows

what I am saying is true. The Trepassey plant - what did they do for Trepassey?

They closed it. What did they do for Gaultois? They closed it.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: No, you people sat back and let Gaultois

close, Grand Bank, Trepassey, and St. John's, and never made so much as a

whimper. What did you do for Long Harbour, for Baie Verte? - went down during

the election campaign and lied to the people about opening up -

AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh!

MR. TOBIN: - lied to the people, Mr. Speaker, about

opening up a new chronic care - or whatever - centre down there, and today I

heard the Minister of Health on the radio saying: Well, things have changed

since the election; the plans are not in place now, we have to make more

adjustments. They bought votes, Mr. Speaker - that's what they did. They closed

Baie Verte, Long Harbour, Daniel's Harbour. The list goes on since this crowd

came to power. Now, Catalina is down, no one knows for how long. One or two fish

plants operating in this Province, that is what we have.

The Marystown Shipyard. When we were in government there were

500 people working in the government-owned facility. With this crowd in office

in that same government-owned facility, there is anywhere between 35 and 100.

That is what they are doing in this Province. They have killed every industry.

What about our mega-project, the one the Conservatives

brought to fruition, the Hibernia oilfields? Now, they have almost got the job

done on that. The Minister of Energy confirmed the other day -I heard it in the

House and I have read it in the newspaper - basically what Bill Hopper said.

That is what we have seen in this Province.

Not only that, they haven't done one thing, not one iota, to

try to entice new development to come in, to try to get someone to replace Gulf

Oil. You have to do it, you have to get out there. If the Premier would get off

the ski slopes and the constitutional horse and do something for the people of

this Province -

My colleague from Grand Bank said: If only you could eat the

Constitution, everybody in this Province would be well-nourished. Because that

is all we have heard for the last fifteen months, absolutely nothing except the

Constitution.

Where is he today, Mr. Speaker, he and his sidekick? There is

no one in this government. Look! There was no one over there who could - he had

to go outside to get a Minister of Justice. That would tell you how competent

you are.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Yes, and if you had not resigned your seat and

let him run there, you would be up in the backbenches, too.

AN HON. MEMBER: He's up trying to talk some sense into

your buddies in Ottawa.

MR. TOBIN: He's up on the Constitution! He is doing

nothing for the thousand men and women in Catalina! He is doing nothing for the

crowd that were home today in Fortune! He is doing nothing for the people who

work in the Marystown Shipyard! No, Mr. Speaker, he is up in Ottawa, on the

Constitution. That's where he is. It is time for him to get off the

constitutional horse and look after the needs of the people of this Province.

Mr. Speaker, I was talking about the fisheries. I was talking

about the contribution that had been made to the fishing industry by the

deep-sea fishermen and by the inshore fishermen in this Province, and how both

sectors have been drastically affected, how people in the inshore fishery this

year didn't even qualify for their unemployment insurance.

MR. HOGAN: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: No, Mr. Speaker, I take the fishing industry

very seriously, unlike the Member for Placentia, I can tell him that.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, it is only last week he had to

apologize to the Shipyard workers; he should be careful he doesn't have to

apologize to the fishermen in this Province.

Now, having said that, there are people in this Province in

the inshore fishery who didn't get enough stamps this past year to draw their

unemployment insurance. And this government, what did they do? They turned their

backs on them, they did nothing for them, not a thing. They forgot about the men

and women who are involved in the inshore fishery, the same as they forgot about

the people involved in the deep-sea fishery.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, let me say to the Member for St.

John's South that I take this extremely seriously. I take the men and women in

this fishing - I tell you, Sir, that I will not sit back and laugh at you

because you have a problem in St. John's with your fish plant, and I ask you not

to laugh at me because I have a problem with the people involved in the fishing

industry from the South Coast of this Province.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

The hon. Member's time is up.

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave, by leave!

MR. TOBIN: Already?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. Member's time is up.

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, in conclusion, let me say that -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, my time is up? May I have a -

In conclusion, let me say that I hope this government will do

something for the men and women who are affected by the reduction in the fish

allocation, both inshore and offshore. I encourage them to accept the

responsibilities, get off the constitutional horse, throw away the skis and run

the Province.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MURPHY: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

About fifteen or sixteen minutes into the hon. Member for

Burin - Placentia West's speech I really got wrapped up in it. I said: Here he

is, talking about his forefathers, their great strength and everything. Then,

the last five or six minutes he had to take his speech and turn it right - he

accused the Premier and the speech went zunk! downhill. It's too bad.

Mr. Speaker, let me say first of all, before I talk about the

Speech from the Throne, just a few words to my hon. colleague, the Member for

Eagle River, on his gracious speech in moving the Speech from the Throne. I,

like my colleague for Stephenville, thought that the member did a tremendous

job. If there was one problem with his speech, it was too short. Now, hon.

members opposite accused the hon. member of his speech being too long. But he

made so much sense, I thought, that, if anything, his speech might have been a

little too short. I would also like to compliment the Member for Carbonear, my

colleague, who seconded the motion and did, certainly, an eloquent job, as he

always does.

I might say, the Member for Conception Bay South - she was

here; I wanted to say to her - and I am sure she is not far away and she can

probably hear me - how nice it is to see her back in the House of Assembly

looking so well and fit.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MURPHY: And how nice it is to see the Member for

Humber East in the House looking so well and fit.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MS. VERGE: (Inaudible) Fogo?

MR. MURPHY: The Member for Fogo does not look that fit,

he looks well.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MURPHY: Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to spend some time

talking about the fishery because I don't know that we have all really examined

the ramifications of what will happen to this Province if we are to be forced

into a downturn. The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia West addressed the

problem dead on. I thought he did a good job, until he got into partisan

politics, but I suppose he can't help that, and it is all you can do about it.

However, he did a good job.

First, Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a few comments about

the Hibernia project. The reason I said that is because my hon. colleague, the

minister, is here. And I am glad to see the Member for Green Bay come to the

House because when he rose in his place the other day to debate the Throne

Speech I thought every glass in the House was going to shatter, Mr. Speaker. He

was up in G or wherever that octave goes ranting and raving, and I can

understand the frustration from the hon. member why he - High C was it?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Before the hon. member gets into his speech I wonder if I

could inform the House of the questions for our Late Show seeing that it is

4:00?

I am not satisfied with the answer given me by the Minister

of Development regarding the sale of the Marystown Shipyard - the hon. the

Member for Burin - Placentia West.

Mr. Speaker, I am not satisfied with the answer to my

question to the hon. the Minister of Fisheries regarding the TAC of northern

cod. Specifically the Provinces recommendations and its impact on the inshore

allocation and the jobs in the Province - the hon. the Member for Grand Bank.

Mr. Speaker, I am not satisfied with the answer received from

the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation re: the question of whether

the Trans-Labrador Highway will be maintained year round in 1992-93 from Lab

West to Churchill Falls - the hon. the Member for Menihek.

The hon. the Member for St. John's South.

MR. MURPHY: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I fail to see why these gentlemen might say they want further

information on those questions. I thought they were answered more than

adequately.

AN HON. MEMBER: You cannot please them.

MR. MURPHY: Anyway, Mr. Speaker, the Member for Green Bay

rose in his place and squealed and got all excited about Hibernia, and what this

government was doing or was not doing. Well I want to remind the hon. member

that before he was around the now national leader of the Liberal Party in this

foyer out here, because nobody in the then government would talk to him, walked

in and offered the government of the day an opportunity for Hibernia to go on

stream with a situation that would have given every royalty dollar back to the

Province until the provincial debt was paid.

Now if partisan politics did not have to get in the way, and

the hon. minister of the day was here the other day for the Throne Speech as a

judge, His Honour Judge William Marshall, and my understanding is that he

recommended to the then Premier to accept the Chretien-Trudeau offer. It was a

solid, sound offer that would have eliminated the provincial debt for the

Province of Newfoundland without question, and what did they do? They got in the

corridor and instead of putting the people of the Province, and instead of

putting the project ahead, they played their little partisan game and said: No,

we cannot sign. We cannot sign a deal with the Federal Government. They are

Liberals and it will look bad. It would be bad for us politically. And they

would not sign it.

Now if you think, Mr. Speaker, of what transpired after that,

I say to you, Sir, and to this hon. House had they signed it at that particular

time the gravity base structure would now probably be looking at the completion

of the topside. The GBS would be ready to go out and start producing dollars,

and pay the $500 million that we have to pay, this little province, to service

this humongous debt. The $4.5 billion debt that is gone around our ears and our

hon. friends opposite in seventeen years had the responsibility for 74 per cent

of that debt.

Now the hon. member and his boss got elected three times on a

little tiny cup of oil. They got elected three times. I can understand how the

hon. member feels. He is frustrated. He worked long and hard with his previous

boss to bring it in. It started with the former Liberal administration, the

drilling, and the deal was brought in by this Liberal administration, and the

other was a vacuum.

MR. HEWLETT: We would not sell out.

MR. MURPHY: You did not sell out.

MR. HEWLETT: We did not sell out.

MR. MURPHY: No, you played partisan politics with the

people of this Province, and now when we need the dollars they are not

available.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MURPHY: He had the gall to get up the other day and

try and tell the people of this Province that the decisions and the pullout of

Gulf, which this Government had absolutely nothing to do with, we did everything

to encourage them and they walked away from us - and your colleagues in Ottawa

let them go off with their money to where? To Siberia. And gave them a tax

relief to go over there. And you had the unadulterated gall to stand in this

House and get on the way you got on. Now, the hon. member should know better.

I can understand why. He spent a lot of time in a lot of

places around the Globe with his former boss, having a tough time strutting

around trying to find a way to get the consortium together so they could

actually start the project.

MR. HEWLETT: (Inaudible).

MR. MURPHY: Now, I didn't interrupt the hon. member the

other day, so he needs to hear the truth.

You know, Mr. Speaker, perhaps the other fields associated

with the offshore will have a different mode, will have a different approach to

the extraction of the oil that is on the Grand Banks, and we may not see another

GBS. The Minister yesterday, during Question Period, explained and explained

very well as to why the GBS is going on the Hibernia structure as it is today.

So, sorry if the hon. Member for Green Bay does not want to admit the reality

that that previous administration cost the people of this Province untold

millions, if not billions of dollars.

You know, Sprung, if you think about it, Mr. Speaker,

compared to the rest of what they did may not be that bad. Because of the

decision not to sign Hibernia when Mr. Chretien, probably the most honest

politician who stands in Ottawa today in shoe leather, walked into this building

and offered the then Government the deal he offered them, and they said no

because of partisan politics, the people of this Province will pay and pay and

continue to pay.

AN HON. MEMBER: They did not want to overheat the

economy.

MR. MURPHY: They did not want to overheat the economy.

What was the expression? He was going to heap prosperity upon the people of

Newfoundland, was it? He was not afraid - that is it - he was not afraid to

inflict prosperity. Well! Then eight short years later the man quietly walked

away and he said he wasn't ruthless enough. Now, what he should have been

ruthless enough to do, Mr. Speaker, was sign Hibernia when that offer was there

and today the people of Newfoundland, with the tremendous problems we have in

the fishery, we may have had something to fall back on.

AN HON. MEMBER: You would have done with it what you did

with Churchill Falls.

MR. MURPHY: Well, let me answer that for the hon. member.

Churchill Falls, there is a tremendous number of mature people in this Province

today working, doctors, lawyers and everything else. This hon. member worked in

Churchill Falls for two years.

MR. WINSOR: Had a job, did not work.

MR. MURPHY: No. Let me assure the hon. the Member for

Fogo I worked. There was no chalk dust on me, there was real dust on me, my

friend. Not that I have anything against school teachers.

When Churchill Falls was signed, oil was $2.15 a barrel.

Nobody in their wildest imagination would have thought or could have thought

that Churchill Falls at that time was a bad deal. And if memory serves me right,

the Tories of the day thumped loudly and voted in support.

AN HON. MEMBER: Everyone.

MR. MURPHY: Oh, yes, everyone strong. The Tories of the

day thumped their desks and pounded loudly that the Premier was on the right

track. He had enticed the Rothchilds and Winston Churchill to bring the money to

Newfoundland to develop the Upper Churchill. It was great, Mr. Speaker! Now, if

you do not have 20/20 vision or you do not have that hindsight, if you look over

your shoulder you realize that Churchill Falls 1992 was a bad deal for

Newfoundland, but nobody had a crystal ball at that time.

I say to the hon. member that his former leader knew the

Chretien deal was a good deal but because of partisan politics he would not sign

it. He knew it. It was a lot better than the deal we had with the Atlantic

Accord and the hon. member knows it, so let us not talk doom and gloom. Mr.

Speaker, you sit here sometimes listening to hon. members opposite and you get

the feeling that they are afraid something good is going to happen. It is like

they thrive on despair. They want to get up and rant and rave about what the

problems are. Instead of getting up and saying, yes, we are going to criticize

the Government, that is what we are here for, we are going to be in Opposition a

long time and we are going to sit here and criticize this Government, but we are

going to do it constructively. But not constructively, just over there thriving

on things that are beyond the control of this Government, not only this

Government, but ten provincial governments, two territorial governments, and

beyond the control of the great Brian, the Prime Minister, totally, totally

beyond control.

The recession we are into - we can thank the double whammy of

this recession, Mr. Speaker, on the former Minister of Finance, Mr. Wilson, who

invented his own recession. Normally, Canada, being such a small country was

satisfied to wait for our friends south of the border to have a recession and

because of the tremendous investment from the Americans we then followed along

with our own recession. But, oh no, not Mr. Wilson, he was not satisfied, he

wanted to write his name in history. He had his own recession, homemade, and

then when the America recession came along this country suffered a double

whammy. Now, all the guns are loaded, there is tremendous outcry in Ottawa about

Hondas made in Canada, and softwood lumber, and half of Newfoundland is up on

the steps of Ottawa trying to get some reality, some fairness, and some balance

to what the Federal Government has let happen to the fishing industry in this

Province.

Mr. Speaker, Hibernia will prove, if the effort and the

energy of this Government and this minister has anything to do whether or not

Hibernia is a success let me assure you, Mr. Speaker, it will be a resounding

success. Now, the hon. Leader of the Opposition got up yesterday and asked the

minister what this Government was doing, what kind of a team we had in place to

ensure that Hibernia was going to be reinvested. Now, surely heavens, the Mobils

of the world, and the Chevrons of the world, who are out there in the industry,

know a heck of a lot more about oil and gas than this Government. It only makes

sense.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible)

MR. MURPHY: Well, I would agree with the member, but why

ask a silly question trying to make brownie partisan points? We are not here all

the time. If you mention yesterday, oh, you guys are in three years, you have to

backup, Mr. Speaker. They almost come over their desks. You cannot mention the

previous administration. You cannot say that we had a clean set of books when we

took over.

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes, they were.

MR. MURPHY: Yes, they were clean alright. I cannot wait

for the Member for St. John's East to get up in this debate and talk about

Hibernia. I want to hear his views on Hibernia. I want to hear his views because

I know, as all hon. members know, that his party, the NDP party in Ottawa, voted

against the Hibernia Bill. So maybe the hon. member would want to get to his

feet and say: Well my colleagues in Ottawa told you so, and the $1.5 million a

day that is now being spent is wrong.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MURPHY: Now, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Port au

Port is back in the House. He has his head in the desk where he should keep it.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MURPHY: Yes I know you could. I realize that. In

understanding the hon. member I fully realize exactly what you are saying. I

fully understand what you are saying. As a matter of fact somebody asked me one

time: Who is the biggest crackie in the House? and I refused to answer. Crackie.

I refused to answer. I would not answer it.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MURPHY: I would not answer it.

Now, Mr. Speaker, you talk about parliamentary. This is the

kind of stuff day after day that the hon. member gets on with. He comes in, says

nothing, puts his head on the desk and says nothing except for shooting barbs

across the floor. He contributes absolutely nothing. And he is over here tapping

ministers on the shoulder looking for things for his district, and when he does

not get it he jumps up, screams, rants and raves and goes into hysterics.

I saw him one day walking out and he threw all his material

all over the place because he was told, no. Now that is foolish. You do not see

the Member for Humber Valley getting on with that kind of foolishness.

MR. DUMARESQUE: Coyotes here, there and everywhere.

MR. MURPHY: That is right. The coyote trail is long.

Tracking coyotes soon, a new industry. The old coyote tracker.

Now, Mr. Speaker, let me get around to something the hon.

member knows absolutely nothing about: the fishing industry. I wanted to pay

compliments to the Member for Burin - Placentia West until he got into his

foolish partisanship. I said to myself: I am going to get up today and join with

the hon. members and talk about the fishing industry, and try along with

everybody else in this Province to bring some positive words to an industry that

is really in an awful lot of trouble.

We talk about overfishing, Mr. Speaker, and we talk about

northern cod. I think that there is something getting lost in the word northern

cod. The critic opposite, the Member for Grand Bank, full knows that the word

northern cod is an overused phrase because if you look at the balance sheet at

the end of the day in the offshore fishery, though the cod is the single biggest

item on the ledgers, you better not throw away the flats, the flounders and

yellow tailed gray sole, and all the other fish, the red fish, and what have you

which are extremely important. That has gotten lost somewhat in the debate that

is going on today all across this country.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I heard my friend from St. John's East -

Extern yesterday talking about the 200 mile limit and the deal the Federal

Government made with France in 1972. I think what the hon. member might have

forgotten was that from his bedroom or living room in Flatrock some years ago

you could look out the window and see the Hammer and Sickle go by at night. That

is how close the fishing vessels were on the grounds, the three mile limit. They

were all around taking our fish within three miles. Then we got twelve, and then

we got 200. Now how did we get a 200 mile limit? How did we get 200 miles?

AN HON. MEMBER: Tell us the history.

MR. MURPHY: You want to know the history. The hon. member

might want to know the history of Ossokmanuagan and the bridge and the road.

MR. HODDER: Ossokmanuan.

MR. MURPHY: There you go. The coyote is wailing again,

Mr. Speaker. Would you protect me from the coyote? It might have rabies.

MR. HODDER: Ossokmanuan.

MR. MURPHY: That is your pronunciation of it, which does

not necessarily mean it is right. You don't even know where it is.

MR. HODDER: I have flown it, I have fished it, I have

camped on it.

MR. MURPHY: That was the word we got when you were the

Minister, you spent a lot of time fishing, camping and flying around.

MR. A. SNOW: Tell us the history of the 200-mile limit.

MR. MURPHY: I will tell the hon. Member from Menihek

about the 200-mile limit. Without the late hon. Don Jamieson it would not be in

place right now, without the Liberal Government it would not be in place right

now, and hon. membe