PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 9 5th Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, APRIL 1, 1971 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

Wpri; 1st., 1971 The House met at 3 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order! Tape no 159 HON , L . R. CURTI S (}lin i ster of Just i ce): Page 1 Mr. Speaker, today is one of the greatest, if not indeed the greatest anniversaries in all Newfoundland's history. On this date in 1949 a few of us gathered together in Government House, we saw the late Sir Albert Walsh sworn in as Governor and we saw him swear in the Hon. Joseph R. Smallwood as Premier. Those there also saw the swearing in of nine Cabinet Ministers: Mr. Gordon Winter, the late Mr. William Keough, the late Mr. Forsey, the hon.

Sam Hefferton, the hon. Charles H. Ballam,. ttre·•iate Michael J. Sinnott, the late Harmon W. Quinton and Dr. Pottle and myself. The ten of us were sworn in on that day as members of the first Provincial Cabinet of Newfoundland. This was a fateful day in Newfoundland's history. For some years before, the future of Newfoundland had been under consideration and the time had come for a decision to be made. Joseph Smallwood, as he was at that time,had organized a campaign for Confederation. Almost single handedly, he directed that campaign. He had mapped it out first. He organized it.

He carried it through until late in 1948 there was a plebiscite, a second plebiscite.which decided in favour of Confederation. The first day of April,the first Government was formed and a few minutes prior to midnight on March 31st., Newfoundland regained its status as Britain's oldest colony and youngest Dominion. On the next day, the ten of us were sworn in. Four of te~have since passed to their reward. That was a_ fateful day for Newfoundland. Newfoundland,by the vote of its people,had elected to become a Province of Canada and the majority of the people had voted for that.

It was a unique occasion for the people of a country,to vote for its future status. Two and twenty years ago that happened. It is surp:csing how many ministers haw been sworn in since that day. I have a list here of four foolscap pages. Some of them are s:n

April 1st., 1971 Tape no 159 Page 2 Mr. Curtis, sitting on the Opposition, Some of them are otherwise dead. A few are still living. Our relationship with the Federal Government and with our provinces, our fellow provinces, has been extraordinarily good, The . years that have passed have been happy ones for us. We have seen some wonderful changes in Newfoundland. We have seen roads built through practically the entire country. Where justified, we have seen paved roads.

You would not recognize Newfoundland today as we knew it before 1949, Just to mention a few of the items: Apart from the roads, what have we got:,' We have the Family Allowances which were a God.;en" to our people, We have the Old Age Pensions and before Confederation pitiful small and painfully few. We have Mothers' Allowances,now for the mothers of children attending school. We have improved Military Pensions. We have Unemployment Insurance. We have an improved Workmen's Compensation Act and when you realize, Mr.

Speaker that before Confederation the maxi um amount payable for Workmen's Compensation,in the case of death.was $3,000. We have had development of our resources. We have educational establishments of which we are proud. l& have schools that are second to none. We have a first-class University,m.ad.ng it unnecessary now for Newfoundland people to go abroad to get an education and to get a college degree. We have hospitals of which we are proud. We have a medicare programme ,wh~ch is a Godsend to ou_r people~ These are only a few, Mr.

Speaker, of the great things that have come to Newfoundland, as a result of Confederation. I think it is only fitting that today, on the anniversary of that occasion, that we should stop for a moment and salute Newfoundland as the youngest and newest Province of Canada. It would be improper. It would be insane not to couple with that salute, a salute also to Premier Joseph R. Smallwood, to whom.I say .must go the credit for engineering 6[0

Aprii 1st •• 1971 Tape no 159 Page 3 Mr. Curtis. Confederation, for bringing it about. He is truly one of the Fathers of Confederation. Laugh. as you like. You can joke about it, but Premier Smallwood deserves the entire credit for bringing Newfoundland into its present state of prosperity. Newfoundland is more prosperous now. Those of us that went to the hustings in 1949 saw people with flour sacks for clothing. with rain coats in the middle of summer. I know, I saw them in my own district. and thank God the next tiae I went back, the people were without those •• They had new shoes on their feet.

They had life, such as they had never known or dreamt of it before·. I salute,on behalf of Newfoundland.Premier Smallwood,and would take advantage of this happy occasion to pay this tribute to him. Thank you! MR. A. J. MURPHY: (Leader of the Opposition) : Mr. Speaker, I would wish also to take advantage of this great anniversary day of Newfoundland's joining with the great Dominion of Canada in the great combination of nations, 661

April 1, 1971, Tape 160, Page 1 -- apb MR. MURPHY: under British democracy. On an occasi~n like this I am rather loath to introduce any tinge of politics Sir, but I am afraid that the hon. minister on the other side could not refrain from a few snide and,in my opinion,nasty remarks on this occasion. Mr. Speaker, who can give the lie to the fact that the great majority of our people today are enjoying a far great measure of prosperity, of the things that rightfully belong to the twentieth century.

We have heard, time and time again,that most of us now have indoor plumbing, that we have paved roads, that we have modern schools, that we have fine hospitals. These Mr. Speaker, no one would dare -disagree with. Since 1949, this Province has been the beneficiary of many great benefits 1 as a member of the Canadian Union. I would like also to pay tribute to the hon. Premier for being,as the hon. minister so aptly put it, for being the one who engineered WI into Confederation.

I would like,Sir, on this twenty-second occasion, I would like very much to say that this Province has enjoyed to the full the benefits that did come from Ottawa. Down through the years this Government has at all times placed first the welfare of our people. I would like to say that, but I am afraid Mr. Speaker, I must be honest. I must say that 1with a deep sense of rerret and sorrow,that I personally and many thousands of our citizens, must look on _the other side of the picture,where so many thousands of our Newfoundland people are not enjoying the benPfits that so rirhtfully belong to them. Mr.

Speaker, in this hon. House)today, we have representatives of what I might call the real Newfoundlanders; that is, the great number of fishermen from all over this Province.whom! fear in many respects have not enjoyed fully the benefits that should rightfully be theirs. Mr. Speaker, there are many areas of our Province still back in the dark ages,as far as many of the modern comforts are concerned. There are still many people who have to go to great hardships,over roads that in many cases are not fit to drive over, and are still enjoying benefits of second class citizens. It is not my intention,Mr.

Speaker, at this time to go fully into this, this should be a very joyous occasion. But, on behalf of the party I 6C2 '

April 1, 1971, Tape 160, Page i -- apb have the great honour to represent, who because in the early days there was a group of people,who in their opinion felt that Confederation should not be discussed.,only by a soverign body, an elected body, by the people of this Province,to go to Ottawa to discuss the terms of union, we inherited the term of being 1 anti-confederate." I hope by now1Mr. Speaker, that this myth, this false accusation has been done away with.

I will go on record now,Sir, to say that we on this side of the House are just as proud . and just as happy to enjoy Canadian citizenship as any member on the other side, notwithstanding anything we hear to the contrary. I may,Mr. Speaker, before I sit down, just say that during these past three years _ we.of the P.C.Party ,have been the only party to celebrate this great anniversary. A little plug for our affairs tomorrow night, in many areas of this Province we will be holding dances 1 and so on and so forth,to celebrate this great anniversary. In St.

John's we have two, the price of the tickets are $3.50 each and I would urge the hon. members on the other side, ~he great confederates,to join us in celebrating,this great twenty-second anniversary. Thank you very much! MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, we too would be remiss if we did not associate ourselves with the expression of deep sentiment or propaganda that is being eJq>ressed on this anniversary - the twenty-second anniversary of Confederation. We realize and are the first to say that the Premier deserves credit for his activities in bringing about Confederation,twenty-two years ago.

We have no hesitation in expressing that feeling. There is just this to be said though,! think,Mr. Speaker, that what we need to be concerned about,in this Province today, is where this Province is in 1971. What is our condition today? What is our economic position today? What is the state of our fishery today? How many unemployed do we have today? What are our prospects for this year and next year and the next ten years? Those are the things, I feel,we need to discuss on the twenty-second anniversary of Confederation. Not the progress that has been made since Confederation, we can all see that.

It has not only happened in Newfoundland,Mr. Speaker, it does not take a constitutional change 663

April 1, 1971, Tape 160, Page 3 -- apb to bring about progress. In the last twenty-two years there has been progress brought about in every country in the world. It is just amazing the changes you see everywhere you travel. I remember being in Spain in 1956, quite a backward country compared even to Newfoundland in physical resources and wealth, but when you travel there 1ten years later or fifteen years later, look at the marvelous changes you see in Spain. Look at the changes you see in the • United Kingdom. Look at the changes in Germany. Look at the changes in Japan. Look at the changes in Hong Kong.

Look at the changes any where throughout the world.in the last twenty-two years there have been tremendous changes and advancement. They have hospitals, they have had changes,in paved roads, they have had changes, in water and sewage. Newfoundland is not alone. One would sometimes think,Mr. Speaker, that this Province and this Province alone chanFed in the last twenty-two years, all because of Confederation. That is just not the case. A lot of these changes would have come about, Mr. Speaker, Confederation or not, for Confederation itself would have come about. I do not like to see these occasions,Mr.

Speaker, used improperly. We are all glad to note,and it is noted every year,that it is another anniversary of Confederation. There has not been that great a change in our fishery since 1949, and there are some fifty odd gentlemen in the gallery now I would like to welcome.

I believe they are fishermen from around the Province,who hope that after twenty-two years they are going to see some fundamental change now in the fishery of Newfoundland, so that the fishermen themselves can participate in setting the prices of their product, and in bargaining for themselves,collectively,through a union of their own, freely chosen by themselves, unsupported by Government. That will be a change that will be well worthwhile,Mr. Speaker, and it will not be brought about because of Confederation.

Those changes , many of them can only be brought about by Government, and Government has to adopt certain policies and be willing to bring them about. 6(>1

April 1, J91l, Tal)'e 160, Page 4 -- apb So we join the hon. Minister •of Justi .ce ,in agreeing with him that it is the twenty~seeond year anniversary of Confederation. It is certainly worth mentioning, but ·we have a lot more to do, Mr. Speaker . We have to think, not just of the lae .t twenty-two years, but of the ne.xt fifty. There are bsues that we are going to decide this year,in this Province,that are going to decide 1!,That the next twenty-two years will be like. 6£3

April 1st. 1971 Tape 161 PK --1 MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. p.entlemen who have.alluded to this great anniversary in our history. I expressed my warm thanks for the kindly references that have been made to me- and to the part that I was privileged to pay in bringing about this very great event in our Newfoundland history. There are people in the gallery today who are not Canadians, and certainly not Newfoundlanders, they are citizens of the great United States. They will perhaps,more than most of us 1be interested to hear that Newfoundland is the oldest settled part of the Western Hemisphere.

That the City of St. John's is the oldest town in the Western Hemisphere, that it has been here continuously, not cQntinually, but continuously, unbroken 1 for a longer period than has any other settlement of White men 6f European civilization on this side of the Atlantic Ocean. part of the New World. We are a very old, very historic And in the time that we have been here some great events have occurred.

I would nmr.ber them as ten, and I would put the Discovery of Newfoundland by John Cahot,in 1497, and the beginning of the settlement of Newfoundland in that year, as the first great historic event in our Island story. And then I would say that the second was the takinp: of formal possession,in the name of the Cro~,n,by Sir Humphrey Gilbert,in 1583. And I would say that the appointment of the first Governor of Newfoundland,in 1727,would be the third great historic event in our history.

And I would say that the events of 1805 or 1806, and I frankly confess that, I forget for the mement which of the two years it was, would be the fourth great even~ namely; conceding the right to live here. Because it had been unlawful before that to live in Newfoundland, it was contrary to the Laws of England. The right to live here, the right to enclose land, to put a fence around your piece of land and the right to put a chimney in your nome,would be the fifth great event in our history. I would say that the sixth great event would be the building of the first road. The road from St.

John's to Portugal Cove in, I think, 1824. I would say that the reform, the institution of ·the Reformed Supreme Court, the present Supreme Court of Newfoundland,in 1826. And I would 6~6 t I

April 1st. 1971 Tape 161 PK - 2 MR. SMALLWOOD: say that the appointment of the institution of Representive Government, in 1832 ,would be the eighth great event in our history, as was the institution of full Responsible Government in 1855. The ninth great event in our Island's story, and certainly in 1949, the coming of Union with Canada, Federal Union. Our entry into the Family of Canadian Provinces, bringing the nt1mber of provinces from nine to ten.

Our becoming Canadians, our becoming part and parcel of this great and lovely land of Canada.would be the tenth and greatest,by far. the greatest single event in our nearly 500 years of history. But, Sir, the coming of Confederation, twenty-two years ago, just before the stroke of midnight,yesterday, though the greatest event in our histo~y,was not the last great event. Other great things have come since then. It would take too long merely to read a list of the great things that have happened in Newfoundland in the last twenty-two years. We have had tremendous events in Newfoundland, since we became a Province.

We have built the first road across this Island, costing the best part of $200 million, and running for a distance of nearly 600 miles and paved from end to end. We have huilt a great university, which of the sixty universities in Canada, is the tenth largest, with 6,000 students, with twice as many of a .. teaching staff today, as there were students the day l first became Premier. We have built a thousand new schools. One thousand new schools built throughout our Province. We have built over twenty new hospitals. We have built over 6,000 miles of roads on this Island and in Labrador.

We have built twenty­ seven great new,modern,new fish plants, employing 8,000 persons and buying fish for cash from many thousands of our fishermen. We have created over 200 new municipalities in these twenty-two years. We have built many public "libraries. We have provided a great deal of rural electrification. We have put in a great many water and sewer systems. We have provided hockey and skating rinks. We have provided Arts and Culture _Centres. And in that same period, Mr. Speaker, we have built Newfoundland's first oil refinery at Holyrood, ~nd are now building one of the lar~est oil refineries in the 6C7

April 1st. 1971 tape 161 PK - 3 MR. ~1'1.ALLl•?OOD: whole of the Canadian ~at ion to produce I at the beginning, as a start, 100,000 barrels a day. ~-le have begun the production of a great new paper mill, ijeginning with a production of 1000 tons a day,at Stephenville. And we have in prospect still another great new paper mill at Come-by-Chance. We have had the greatest mining development in these twenty-two years of any Canadian Province. In twenty-two years we have gone from mineral production of $25 million a year to $350 million a year.

No province of Canada can come anywhere near that rate of increase,in that period. Pe have been instrumental in creating the great Labrador City and the great mining development surrounding Labrador City. And as well, the great City of Wabush,in Labrador,and the p.reat mining development surrounding that City as well. In Bay D'Espoir we have launched a great development of hydro.electric power and on it we have spent so far something of the order of $400 million, and we are now close to 1 million horsepower of electricity in that vast development.

He have brought about the development of the World's mightiest, the tlorld's biggest power development,at the Upper Churchill, to drain 6 million and 7 million horespower ,costing one thousand million dollars, employin~ four, five and six thousand men to buil½ for the last five or six years. And we are about to build..,on the Lower Churchill, another vast power development,that will cost another $500 millions to build and will employ another four or five thousand men,for the next four, or five years.

And in Lake Melville,using the power to be developed at the Lower Churchill, we are, I believe, soon to have the mightiest industrial enterprise of its kind in the whole Xation of Canada, and I refer to the BRINCO Project to build a great uranimum enrichment plan~,using the cold clean water of the Churchill River and the power of the Lower Churchill,at a cost of one thousand million dollars. And, Mr.

Speaker, if these things were not enough to inspire confidence in Newfoundland, if all these mighty developments of the last two decades were not enough to inspire all Newfoundlanders and others with the great prospects of this Province, I point you to the enormous possibilities that lte just off the coastline, the shoreline of this Isl'and and the shoreline 6G8

April ls t • 19 71 tape 161 Pk - 4 ¥R. S~LHOOD: of Labrador. We have with us here today~visiting us this a f ternoon. to be entertained by us toni~ht,all members of this House, on both s i des of the House, a mi~hty corporation representive, the President of a tit:antically big corporation, AMICO, who are now in the act of towing $14_millio n or $15 million oil. drilling rigs to be stationed one hundred miles sout heast of Cape Race.

We are, I believe, I verily believe~ these ~ent l emen have ~iven me the honour to lunch with me today,in the Private Din i ng Room, and I verily believe that Newfoundland is at the very edge of a vast, of a vast development of oil and natural. gas,lyi ng just of the shoreline of this Island and just of the shoreline of Labrador. 669

April 1 1971 Tape 162 page 1.

So.while we cannot credit Confederation with the presence of the oil offshore or inshore, ~hough we cannot credit Confederation with the presence of the great potential hydro-electric power of Labrador, {hough we cannot praise Confederation because there is great mineral wealth in Labrador 1 we can praise Confederation, I hold, because under it,due to the advantages of Confederation, due to the great riches that have been brought here, due to the greater strength of our people, the greater optimism, the greater confidence of our people,and above _all pue to the greatly increased I confidence that the outside world has in Newfoundland 1 due to these things Confederation is to be thanked fo.r most of the progress of the last twenty-two years.

I, myself, never ceased to Thank God that I was led, and I have never doubted that I was led,(not by the Devil) I was led,to launch and lead the movement for Confederation with Canada. I doubted not, I have never doubted that I did right and I was inspired to do it. That I was inspired to launch and lead a movement,which conferred the greatest blessings upon the people of Newfoundland that they have ever known. Ever known, in nearly five hundred years of history.

I never ceased to Thank my Maker for giving me life, for giving me energy, for giving me some ability,at any rate, and above all, above all 1 for giving me courage ,the kind of courage that never takes'no'for an answer, that never is daunted by any kind of Opposition, the courage, the strength and the determination to pursue great ends,not small ends, not piffling, trifling, picayune ends but great ends, great aims and great ambitions.

If I am proud, personally proud of anything,it is a pride I have in the fortune, my good fortune,in inspiring the people of Newfoundland to look ever for better and ever for more, to aspire ,in this Province,to the highest possibilities that are within our reach or can be brou~ht within our reach. ·In the gallery there is a visitor today,who was at my side in the National 670

l(pril 1 1971 Tape 162 page 2 . Convention. He was at my side in the great campaign~ To win the people, to win them for Confederation.in the great referendum campaigns, two of them. Re was at my side in the first Cabinet.A few days after the Cabinet was sworn in by the new Lieutenant Governor of the Province,he joined with me,as a member of the Cabinet. He served side by side with me,loyally and efficiently,for a great many years itintil his retirement four or five years ago,and I am so happy and proud that Charles Ballam is still around. I know why he is here today.

I know why,today,the first day of this session he has put in an appearance. He is an old Confederate,that is why. His heart is here. I welcome him.·~-· l welcome all Newfoundlanders>wherever they are, who fought for Confederation. To those who fought against it,let me say that they too, they too today,all Newfoundlanders today,except the occasional crank, the occasional crackpot, the occasional fool. We have our just and proper share of crackpots, cranks and fools in this Province,our proper and our due share • We have not been neglected by the Almighty. He gave us our proper share of fools in Newfoundland.

Except for those fools all New­ foundlanders,whatever they did, whatever they did in the two great battles on Confederation,tct..Aay all Newfoundland joyfully, gratefully and Proudly hail the coming of Confederation. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I want to make a ministerial statement. It may be of some interest to hon. members on both sides of the House to learn that excellent progress has already been made on institutin~ the improvement in our Provincial Social Assistance Programme announced at the Develonment Conference on February 3:-·past.

I am pleased to report,Sir, that food rates for recipients of short-term a$sistance 1including unemployed employables and persons who are ill for periods not exceeding six months, these rates 1 as of midnip,ht last night,Sir, the anniversary of this Province's entry into Confederation,have been raised to parity with those of recioients of long term assistance. These are oeoole including needy mother as well as 0 671

April i' 1971 Tape 162 page 5. persons who are ill for six months or longer. · Of course, Mr. Speaker, the expense in implementing these programmes is shared equally by the Provincial and federal Treasury,under the present terms of the Canada Assistance Plan. Effective also 1 on this first day of the twenty-second year of the Canadian Province,Mr.

Soeaker, these unemployed emoloyables will be allowed earnings that will not interfere with their Social Assistance Allowances,on the basis of $25 per month, single persons, anrl families ~onsisting of not more than five persons, with an additional five dollars for each member of the family, in excess of five persons up to a maximum of $50 per month. We look forward Sir, to this measure as having a salutatory effect on the morale of our unemployed citizens. It removes Mr.

Speaker, the old unreasonable morale eroding structure that kept many in enforced idleness or forced them to work in secret,as·_thoue;h work itself, Sir, was something unclean. May I ask you,~r. Speaker, and hon. members on either side of the House, that if they would observe closely in their own electoral districts the working out in practise of these new measures,so that we as a House may be able to evaluate them as indicators of directions which we should follow in future programmes of the Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation. As a footnote to these remarks, Mr.

Speaker, I might also point .out that we have already announced adoption of new tariffs covering the funeral expenses of indigents,that will help improve the conditions under which the last rites are afforded to our citizens. Now, Mr. Speaker, may I refer to the inception of another set of programmes desie;ned to make easier the lives of a group to whom we all owe a great deal of respect. We hear a great deal these days,Sir, ab?ut the generation gap. The gap between the under twenty-fives and I suppose the over twenty-fives. There is another generation g~P of which we are all not generally conscious,Mr.

Speaker. because those who are not on the far sirle of that ~ap do not lead marches on the Con,tederation Building, destroy computer s. centres or puff pot at rock festivals. 672

April 1 ·1971 Tape 162 paize 4. Mr . Speaker, I refer to the gap which has developed with the fading of family ties between us>in our viRorous active middle years,and those who survive as what we term no'-ladays "senior citizens:• Put yourself in the position of the elderl y,Mr . Speaker. As you go - MR: CROSBIE: A point of order Mr. Speaker, a ministerial statement is suppose d to be a statement of government policy. This is not a statement of government policy,this is a dissertation on ~eneration gaps . If this time is to be used f6r ministerial s tatements, it should be ministerial statements .of policy .

We have the Address in Reply coming up ,on which the min ister can speak . MR.NEARY: Mr. Spe.aker , I know the hon. member does not like to hear this. This is good stuf~he does not like to hear it . MR .CROSBIF.: I do·not like to hear bunk - 673

April 1st, 1971 Tape 163 JM - 1 MR. NF.ARY: Now as we grow in wisdom and tolerance, Mr. Speaker, we find ourselves also growing - MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I have risen on a point of order. Is it to be permitted or not? MR. SMALLWOOD: He ignored you. MR. SPEAKER: I recognize it is the right of the hon. member to make a point of order but if we have to go into every phase and every line of a tninisterial statement and see whether it contains anything other than just the bare 1 bald, outline of Government policy ,there will not be very many statements given.

The Minister, I hope,will not stray too far from the ministerial statement,but I know there is a certain latitude he has to be given,in ·order to clarify the policy which he is announcing. MR. NEARY: Thank you for your ruling, Mr. Speaker. As I said, "'Put yourself in the position of the elderly, Sir." As you grow in wisdom and tolerance you find yourself also growing :tr.loneliness as the busy workaday world rushes by you and your own conteinparies depart one by one,like autumn leaves falling from the tree of life. · Mr.

Speaker, as promised in the Development Conference,and I know the hon. members on the opposite side do not like to hear this, Mr. Speaker, but as promised at the Development Conference, Mr. Speaker, we have plans to make easier the autumn years of that generation to whom we owe the gift of life itself. I will not, Sir, retell the details of that programme of benefits for senior citizens, May I merely report to you and the House, Mr. Speaker, progress,over the past eight weeks,on its main focal points for action2 Effective today, Mr.

Speaker, this Confederation Anniversary Day,in the year of Our Lord,1971,the Federal and Provincial Treasuries will share equally in providing an extra allowance,up to S40.00 monthly,for special needs,to a person in receipt of old age security and guaranteed income supplement,whose spouse has not yet reached the age of pension entitlement. This allowance, of course, Mr. Speaker, will be based on any extra source of income enjoyed by that spouse. Now how is that for news. MR. CROSBIE: (Inaudible).

April 1st, 1971 Tape 163 JM - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I will book a bed for the hon. member at the Hoyles Home,if he would like me to. MR. MURPHY: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, may I also inform hon. members of the House that volunteer groups have already been formed to aid in the work of our Government institutions for the aged. I can arrange for one of the hon. gentleman to go on the Committee,if he wants me to. Now, Mr.

Speaker, experience with these volunteer groups will form a basis for instituting in communities,throughout the whole Province, organized home visiting services for those senior citizens,who would prefer remaining in their own homes to institutional living. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. members are really getting frustrated. I also want to inform members of the House, Sir, that we are presently conducting research into the extent of need and best modes of implimentation for a number of other programmes announced at the Development Conference in February. Among these, Mr.

Speaker, are the plans for decentralization of homes for senior citizens,with a much smaller number of residents than in the past and located, Sir, in the communitie~ giving relatives of the residents easy visiting access. Paralleling this, Mr. Speaker, is the gradual conversion of our present larger homes to centres for those requiring nursing care. I might point out, Mr. Speaker, that a pilot pr~ject,in the provision of a day care centre for the elderly, is to be undertaken at the Hoyles Home here in St. John's and should be operative within the next couple of months. May I say,in conclusion, Mr.

Speaker, that a month ahead of my earlier expectations,the Federal Minister of Health and Welfare will be holding a conference with his counterparts from . the Provinces. There, Sir, I have every hope we will be able to negotiate a new cost-sharing agreement that will take into consideration the varying ability of Provinces to pay their share.with additional aid for Provinces,like our own.with low average per capita income. I am most optimistic, Mr. Speaker, that out of 675

April 1st, 1971 Tape 163 JM - 3 MR. NEARY: this meeting will come very real extra financial benefits to this Province, through revision of the cost-sharing provisions of the Canada Assistance Plan. It ·is the absolute intention of this Government, Mr. Speaker, to pass on to the social assistance recipient every benefit possible from the extra dollar assistance thus made available. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the hon. the Minister after his very long and involved statement.

At the beginning of his statement, (the Minister does not want any questions I gather} at the beginning of his statement the Minister mentioned that the rates had been increased for short-term assistance, that is needy, sick persons - MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, is it in order for that question? MR. CROSBIE: Yes, it is in order. The Minister said that there had been an increase in the rates paid for the short-term assistance, that is needy, sick persons and temporary incapacitated persons.

Would the Minister tell the House whether these are the rates that the Government reduced in 1969, as announced in the Budget Speech of 1969,when the Government said that there was tight money? Are these the same rates that are now being increased back again as the election approaches? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, is that a question that requires an answer? MR. CROSBIE: Yes. MR. NEARY: I was not a member of the Government at the time. Hy hon. friend was and he knows more about that matter than I do. MR. CROSBIE: Are these the rates, Mr. Speaker, that the Government reduced in 1969,in the Budget Speech,or not?

Does the Minister not know that? He knows it very well,and now they are being increased. PETITI0'.11S: MR. BARBOUR: Mr. Speaker, I would like to present a petition from the residents of the community of Cannings Cove. The prayer of the peoples petition,from Cannings Cove,is that the road there now.which is in good condition.be changed a little so that the motoring public, the buses and the people who have to use the road\can do,a little more easily and a little more conveniently,because the present road is kind of steep. 676

April 1st, 1971 Tape 163 JM - 4 MR. BARBOUR: Mr. Speaker, the people of Cannings Cove are not all labourers who work on farms, in the parks and in the forests, quite a number of them are fishermen, honest, hard-working fishermen and,in my opinion and I have always said this, Sir, nothing, nothing is too great for the fishermen of Newfoundland. That is why today I stand here,on this the 22nd anniversary of Confederation ~nd say that I intend to support the fisher­ men of Newfoundland as long as I am a member in the Liberal party and sit as a member of this hon.

House of Assembly.and that is going to be for a long, long time yet. Mr. Speaker, in presenting this petition I endorse it wholeheartedly, I ask that it be received and referred to the department to which it relates. On motion, petition received. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to present a petition on behalf of a great number of residents of the district of St. Mary's with reference to the terrible condition of the Salmonier Line.

I would appeal directly to the Minister of Highways,if some measures could be taken, not to pave it, not to upgrade it but to actually grade it so that it will become passible for the cars and trucks that have to pass over it. So I would like to refer this to the Minister of Highways.that immediate action be taken because I have had telephone calls all day yesterday about the condition of the road. On motion, petition received. REPORTS OF STANDING A.~D SELECT COMMITTEES: MR. STARKES: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to table regulations made under the Highways Traffic Act during the past year. ANSWERS TO QUF.STIONS: MR.

SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, question 341 on today's Order Paper.in the name of the hon. the member for Burin. The answer to this question has already been given. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, the answer previously given was that it was Mr. Leo Stead replaced Mr. Groom. 677

April 1st., 1971 Tape no. 164 Page 1 Mr. Crosbie Mr. Stead was a member of the committee before Mr. Groom resigned. Is it Mr. O. L. Vardy that has replaced him? It could not be Mr. Leo Stead. He was already on the committee. MR. SMALLWOOD: Question no. 356. MR. HICKMAN: A supplementary question.Mr. Speaker. Only part of that question was asked yesterday.in response to a question asked by another hon. member.

Part (4) in particular,which asks: ''Have there been any amendments or changes in the agreement referred to in (1) and if so the dates of such amendments or changes and lay on the table of the House the copy of all such amendments or changes?'' That was not MR. SMALLWOOD: There have been none, So, there are none to table. · Question no. 356,in the name of the hon. the member for St. John's West. The answer to this question was tabled last year. MR. CROSIBE: Mr. Speaker,a supplementary question. Have the Government got the report of the Phi.en Royal Commission?

The question is: "If the Government have it, will it table the report?"' How can the question be answered? The report is not even tabled. MR. SMALLWOOD: The report was tabled in this House last year. Question no. 368 •• MR. CROSBIE: That was not the Phalen keport. MR. SMALLWOOD: Question no. 368, again in the name of the hon. the member for St. John's West. There is nothing to be added, There is nothing to add to the information already known to the House. There has been no change. Question no. 369,in the name of the hon. the member .•• MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question - Question 368.

The question asked, whether any monies had been advanced by way of loan 678

April 1st., 1971 Tape no. 164 Page 2 Mr. Crosbie or otherwise guaranteed for these monies or any company associated with them. If so, what is the amount, the terms and conditions •• ? MR. SMALLWOOD: No need of reading it. I have it before me. The House has. MR. CROSBIE: Well what is the answer then? MR. SMALLWOOD: The answer is that there is no information in addition to the information that is already before the House. The answer to this is already well known to the House. MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Spe-aker, part (2) of that question which asks: "Has there been any default in connection with any of these loans and monies advanced to Newfoundland Pulp and Chemical Company Limited? '' That question has not been answered. MR. SMALLWOOD: Question no. 369 •• MR. CROSBIE: Is the Premier going to answer the second Pfrt of the question? Has there been any default? MR. SMALLWOOD: Ques.tion no. 369 •• MR. CROSBIE: Obviously, there has been then. MR. SMALLWOOD: Question no. 369 in the name of the same hon. gentleman. The answer to the first

part is no. The answer to the second

part is that the undertaking has been superseded. Question no. 370, in the name of the same hon. gentleman. The answer is no, There has been no reason to,because of the fact that there has been no cutting. Question no. 371 in the name of the same hon, gentleman. The answer to the first

part is no. The answer to the second

part is no. The answer to the third

part is no. Question no. 372 . in the name of the same hon. gentleman, This has already been answered. The answer to the third

part is no. MR. CROSBIE:On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The question was asked last year •. a year ago,and the answer then was,no. This is now a year later. Has the agreement been amended since? MR. SPEAKER: That is not the subject of a point of order.to begin with, 679

April 1st., 1871 Page 3 Tape 164 Mr. Speaker. lf the question is not answered satisfactorily, a supplementary question may be given or another question put on the Order Paper. The answer given in reply to a question, whether it was satisfactory or whether there is no answer or whether it is unsatisfactory, it should not be the subject •.. KR. SMALLWOOD: Question no. 373,in the name of the same hon. gentleman. The answer is no. Question no. 374,in the name of the same hon. gentleman. The answer to the first

part is no. The answer to the second

part is: "The matter is still under negotiation," Question no. 375,in the name of the same hon. gentleman, This question was answered last year and there has been no change. MR. CROSBIE: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, on Question no. 374. Part (2) of the question, asks: 11 Has the electrl: reduction company agreed to pay a price,greater than two and a.half mills? If so what is the present price per kilowatt hour?" The Premier has not answered part (2) of the question. HR. SMALLWOOD: Question no. 376,. HR. CROSBIE: It is still not answered. MR.

SMALLWOOD: Question no, 376,in the name of the same hon. gentleman, The answer is yes, The amount is of the order of $500,000 a year and it has been paid on various dates. The answer, to the second part, I have not got at the moment. I will get it. The answer to the third

part is yes, the original agreement. The answer to the secono:part is yes. HR. CROS!IE:What is the date of the agreement? What was the date of the said agreement? That is the second part. IIIR, SMALLWOOD: The second part asks the dates of the payments. KR. CROSBIE: The second part of part (3) •• MR. SMALLWOOD: I said, various dates. MR. CROSBIE: Part (3) of the question: If so, what was the date of the 680

April 1st,, 1971 Mr. Crosbie said agreement? MR. SMALLWOOD: appear. Tape no, 164 Page'+ The agreement will be tabled. The date will then Question no, 380. The answer is that this has been done by this hotel, as it is frequently done by other hotels,so as to enable registered guests to play golf at the golf: ,links. MR. CROSBIE: A supplementary question on that question no. 380, Mr. Speaker. Hotel Buildings,Limited is not the operator of the hotel. The operator is Atlific Newfoundland,Limited, Why has not the Atlific Newfoundland,Limited paid the Balley Hally tolf fees? Why should the public pay them?

Why did Hotel Buildings,Limited, a Crown corporation pay them? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have the answer to Question no. 391 on today's Order Paper, asked by the hon. member for Bonavista North. Since April 1st., 1969,to date,the Workmen's Compensation Board of Newfoundland and Labrador has paid the following monies to the law firm of Williams and Cummings for services rendered. This will not be tabled, I am giving the answer oral~y. Mr. Speaker. The board has not engaged the services of any other lawyer or firm during this period. The amount paid to date is $10,965.11.

I will repeat the figures for the hon, gentleman, The amount paid to date $10,965.11. The nature of the work, Mr. Speaker: Services rendered in collection of assessments and in court action involving third party claims, consultation with officials of board, redrafting regulations and amendments and opinions givmthe board on various other matters. MR. Speaker, t also have the answer for Question no. 329,on today's Order Paper, asked by the hon. learned and inquisitive gentleman from St. John's West. The answer is, Mr. Speaker, that this quetion was answered in bhe House last year. MJl.

HICKMAN: A supplementary question, Mr, Speaker. Is the hon. 681

Npril 1st,, 1971 Tape no. 164 Page 5 Mr. Neary. lllinisteraware of the fact that this question was not answered in the Bouse last year but that the House was advised that the lease was then being negotiated and vetted by the Department of Justice and that it would di hopefully be ready for tabling before the House adjourned and if not, it would be tabled in this session? Is the hon. minister aware of that? MR, NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon, ipinister is aware of it. I can only repeat that this question was answered in the House last year. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question.

Is the minister aware that there is no &uch lease tabled in this House for the members to read, If this is correct, will the ~inister then supply a copy of the lease 1 as the question requests? If the fact turns out to be that this lease is not tabled here in the House, will the minister supply a copy? MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. CROSBU:: No, you will not table a copy of the lease, That is what we want to know. MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to answer Question no. 334 on today's Order Paper, tabled by the hon. member for St. John's East. The answer is zero. MR.

HICKMAN: Do you put the dollar sign in front of the zero? 682

April 1st. 1971 Tape 165 PK - 1 HR. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, answer to question No.173,asked by the hon. member for St. John's West, and I also table the answer to Question No. 273,asked by the hon. member for Burin,appearing on the Order Paper of March 29th. HR. HIOOfAN: What number was that? HR. CROSBIE: Ouestion No. 273. HR. RICKMAN: Do you have extra copies? HR. WINSOR: Yes. Mr. Speaker, Question No. 309,appearing on the 0rder Paper of March 30th.,asked by the hon. member for Gander.

I am not in a position to answer that question at the moment, except to say this,that_ there is active negotiation going on with that company and I am virtually sure,we will have a statement,regarding the outcome,very shortly. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. WINSOR: Yes, of course. Part (2), I think, we are pretty sure that the plant at Catalina will continue this year the same as other years. Mr. Speaker, I table the answer to Question No. 327,asked by the hon. member for St. John's West.appearing on the Order Paper of March 31st. MR. CALLAHAN: ~r.

Speaker, in reply to Question No. _~4 standing in the name of the hon. the member for Burin,on the Order Paper of March 25th.• •~·Yhat amounts of Newfoundland debentures and Exchequer Bonds are due for redemption in the fiscal year 1971-72, giving the due dates for each issue? 11 The answer $10 million U.S. Due date, February 7, 1972. $60 million Deutschemarks. June 25, 1971 and also $60 million D.M., June 25, 1971.

(2) What sinking funds , if any, are applicable to each of these issues? The answer is "nil." (3) ~Yhat arrangements have been made for the repayment of these issues? Arranrernents are being made to meet these commitments. HR. EARLF.: Would you permit a question, Mr. Speaker, would the hon. minister tive the House the approximate dollar value,at the time,and rate of exchanpe on the neutschemark? HR. CALLAHAN: I am not aware of what the exchange rate is this day, ~r. Speaker, and therefore it is hazardous to guess. 683

April 1st. 1971 Tape 165 PK - 2 MR. CALI.AHA..~: Question No. 189 - MR. CROSBIE: Could the minister tell us approximately what $60 millions Deutschemark is in dollars? Is it $10 million, $20 million? Approximately. We know he does not know the excahnge rate today. MR. CALLAHAN: That relates ce~tainly to the exchange rate, Mr. Speaker, on that amount of money. MR. CROSBIE: Will the minister take note, it is obviously the minister does not know how many Deutschemarks there are in a dollar. He cannot tell us, would he take note of the question and give it to us tomorrow? • MR-. C.l.LLAHAN: The minister knows, Mr.

Speaker, what it has been. In recent days the minister is not prepared,to date,to guess what it might be. MR. CROSBIE: Come, come now. The rate does not vary. MR. CALL.AKAN: And, I think, the rate is if it is available,does vary, , Mr. Speaker, the ra~e is available to hon. gentlemen opposite>equally. MR. CROSBIE: Just admit that you do not know. MR. EARLE: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker; t-t:R. CALLAHAN: Question No. 189, Mr. Speaker, on the Order Paper. MR. EARLE: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. CAI.LARA..~: How many supplementary questions are allowed? MR. HICIQ!AN: Dozens. MR.

CALLAHAN: !-tr. Speaker, the question has been answered and I have no intention of giving further<information.on it. !-m.. CROSBIE: That is a frank admission. MR. EARLE: All right •••••• MR. CALLAHAN: question No. 189,in the name of the hon. the member for St. John's East Extern. MR. FICKJ,!Aft: What is the number? ~. CALLAHAN: Question No. 189, on the Order Paper of March 26. How many trips did the hon. P.J. Lewis take during the calendar year 1970? According to the records of the Department of Finance, .the hon. P.J. Lewis took no trips durin~ the calandar year 1970. 684

April 1st. 1971 Tape 165 Pk - 3 MR. CROSBIE: Well, that is the answer then, no trips. Or just no trips as far as Finance is concerned. MR. CALLAHAN: Question No. 78 - MR. CROSBIE: Did Finance inquire from anyone else? MR. CALLAHAN: Question No. 78,in the name of the hon. member for Burin, on the Order Pap~r of }farch 25. List the various debenture loans raised since l April, 1970, giving the interest rates, prices of issue, effective interest rate, currency of issue and due dates in each case? I have a table, Mr.

Speaker, I will table this, but I am mindful of Your Honour's request that there be at least seven copies, so,if I may,I will hold this and have it copied and see that the copies are tabled this day. MR. CROSBIE: Could the minister tive us the total? MR. CALLAHAN: I do not think it is totalled, Mr. Speaker. It is not totalled. Question No. 157 ,standing in the name of the hon. member for St.

John's West ,on the Order Paper of March 25. •'As of March 31, 1970 what was the amount of any guarantee given by the Government in connection with the hotel known as the Halfway House,located in Carbonear, Newfoundland, indicating whether the guarantee was given in connection with a mortgage loan or bank loans or the type of loan involved together with the interest rate charged thereon?" The answer, Mr. Speaker, guarante~ six and three-quarter percent, first mortgage sinking fund debentures. The outstanding balance.as of March 31, 1970,was $309,508, since retired in full. MR. CROSBIE: $309,000 was it? MR.

CALLAHAN: $309,508. In answer to part

(2) Mr. Speaker, in connection with any guarantee given by the Government,having reference to loans to Halfway ti House,located at Carbonear. Did the Halfway House fail to meet any payments on principal or interest with respect to such loans and was the Government called upon to pay any monies, and, if so, what amount of monies, in connection • with their said guarantee? The answer, Mr. Speaker, is that $127,968.75 was paid by the Government. It has since been paid in full,together with interest. There is nothing outstanding. 685

April 1st, 1971 Tape 165 PK - 4 MR, CALl.AllAN: Part (3) of the same question. 11 What date did the Government purchase the property located in Carbonear,formerly used as a hotel, and known as the P.alfl,fay House, from whom did the Government purchase the p~operty and what was the total purchase price of the property,indicating whether the full purchase price was paid in cash or by assumption of mortgage or in any other manner? What was the date of the purchase?" The Government as·such, Mr.

Speaker, did not purchase the property, Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation did,on February 15,1971,from the company,for the cash payment of $930,000. MR. CROSBIE: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Can the minister tell us why this Government agency paid $930,000, when the Government had guaranteed a mortgar.e and could foreclose for $350,000? Why was there $580,000 extra paid for it? MR. CALLAHAN: Hr.

Speaker, I think the detail employed in that supplementary question really should he directed to my colleague, the Minister of Social Services and Rehabilitation, because I think the answer is bound up with the nature of the future use of the building. The answer to Question No. 201,standing in the name of the hon. the member for Burin,on the ,:;rder Paper of March 29. Did McNamara Industries 1, Limited pay to the Government,before the required date,the debt it owed to the Government? The answer is "yes."

(2) If so, was this done at the request of the Government? And the answer is, "no."

(3) If the answer ,~ (2) is yes, table all correspondences; of course, Mr. Speaker, does not arise. 686

April 1 1971 Tape 166 page 1. MR.CALLAHAN: Question No. 269, (1) permission has been given. (2) the date is the ftrst of June 1970. (3) the information . in its entirety · is contained in the Act No. 69,1970. (4) the Government has not received a request for financial assistance and therefore (5),Mr. Speaker,does not arise. Question No. 270.

(1) Yes.

(2) Nine applications , ~r a total of 45 acres, were received on January 16i, 1967, One application for 35 acres • received on October 91 1967. One application for one acre received on November 17, 1967. Seven applications ;or a total of 105 acres,were received on April 21, 1970.

(3) None. Now, Mr. Speaker, I should explain that the first eleven applications: : referred to in the second part of_ the answer>were approved and the applicants, in th~ normal course, as all applicants for Crown Landstare notified to get surveys done. After no surveys were received 1within a year the applications were deemed to be cancelled,as required by

Section 15 (2) of the Crown Lands Act. The procedure is to notify the applicant of the date by which his survey must be received,to offer the opportunity for an extension of the time and,if the opportunity is not taken up 1 then it is deemed that the applicant is no longer interested. After the -remaining seven applications, referred to in answer (2),were received,a department surveyor laid out the area a~plied for in seven lots. Mr.

Speaker, this was unusual because normally the Govern­ ment no longer do land surveys, but cc,. try to help that situation. a departmental surveyor laid out the areas applied for in seven lots. The applicantsthen decided the land was unsatisfactory and selected a new site 1 but stipulated that one of the applicants was withdrawing his application. As of the present. the department has not been informad,by the group 1 which applicant has withdrawn and 1therefore,does not know the names of the six applicants with whom it should deal. So that up to now1 Mr.

Soeaker, we are a bit hamstrung in trying to .-.handle this • We have recently had a fieldman go to the area aii:ain and my latest information is that the people themselves have not decided precisely what it is they wish to do. Until they do,we are not in a position to help. 687

April 1 1971 Tape 166 page 2. MR.HICK~: Could I have a copy of that? MR.CALLAHAN: Yes, I can get a copy of that for the hon, member,Mr. Speaker, I will have that one copied and tabled as well. It is a complicated situation which has gotten,! think,a bit beyond everyone's control and probably need to . ,I, start again from scratch. MR.DAWE: Mr, Speaker, in answer to question No. 203. and 266, these two questions are supplementary, The Answer to the first part of the question of 203, yes, tenders were c~lled.

Contract has not been awarded and at the present time the consultating en~ineers are meeting with construction company to try if possible to reduce the cost. Supplementary to question No. 266, the estimated cost for the installation of the water and sewerage system at Red Harbour was $169,000."fhe lowest bjd that we have received when we had called tenders was $232,000. Add to that engineering services and interim financing and we would come up with a figure approximately $270,000. Mr.

Speaker,this is the reason why this contract has not been awarded,but my officials and consulting engineers and the construction company are 111eeting wtth a view to seeintif we can arrive at some reasonable figure so this contract can be awarded. Question No, 360, tabled, MR.ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I have the answer to Question No. 263, I have only three copies of this statistical information and,actually,it is all contained in our annual reports,in one form or another.

I am sorry I have only the three copies.I believe His Honour suggested we bring seven copies.I would be glad.if anymore are needed.I will table these three and ~f more are needed,! will be glad to bring along any number that are needed. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR.MURPHY: Mr. Soeaker, hefore we come to Orders of the Day, I would like to direct a question tor unfortunately he is not in the House nov - the Minister of Fisheries, or perhaps someone on the other aid~ could answer 688

Apri l! 1971 Tape 166 page 3. or give an answer as_to the make.q, -of this cOlllllif:ttee to investigate and study the seal~fishery. I 'lil'Onder, if the Newfoundland Government was consulted on :this and~I do not want to make a speech. bttt there are five Canadians on it and a Norwegian.I wonder if Newfoundbnd fou,tht foT any representation on tbis committee to investigate the seal fishery. Were ve consulted on that Mr. Minister? Establisbed by the .,,, 689

April . 1st., 1971 Tape no.167 Page 1 Mr. Murphy, Federal Government, Mr. Davis. MR. WINSOR: Not to my knowledge, Mr. Speaker. It is strictly a Federal task force appointed . by the De9artment of Fisheries, the Federal Department of Fisheries. We were not asked to be represented. MR. MURPHY: A supplementary question. Has our Department of Fisheries made representations for some representation on thisl It affects our Province solely. _MR. WINSOR: I do not think, Mr. Speaker, that that is really necessary.

The Federal Department in Ottawa realizes the importance of this task force to the seal fishery and Newfoundland certainly is in the forefront of the sealing industry. We have from time to time made strong representation to the Department of Fisheries regarding the seal fishery. This may be the outcome. We have not been asked to appoint anyone to the taak force. MR. MURPHY: And we are quite satisfied not being represented on this? MR. WINSOR: Well one is never satisfied. When it is an~thing pertaining to an industry pertaining to Newfoundland. MR.

MURPHY: Well, let us show it now rather than four years time, when the thing is being abolished. MR. CROSBIE: A supplementary question ••• MR. WINSOR: Well I do not think it will be abolished, Mr. Spealer. MR, CROSBIE: A supplementary question on that point. Is it the fact that are our Government have not complained to Ottawa at the lack of Newfoundland representation on this committee? Is that a fact. MR. SMALLWOOD: That is a fact. MR. CROSBIE: That is a fact, Now, Mr. Speaker, l · have a question for the hon. the Premier . in connection with the wharf facilities at Come-by-Chance?

Have the Government of Canada ever requested or the Department of Public Works 6 r; 0

April 1st., 1971 rape no. 167 Page 2 Kr. Crosbie. of Canada ever requested, or the Minister of Public Works of Canada requested the Government of Newfoundland to guarantee repayment to the Federal Government of the cost of the wharf at r.ome-by-Chance, as reported by Mr. Laing> Arthur Laing, ·the Minister of Public Works in the House of Commons, MR. SMALLWOOD: I have nothing to add to what I have already said. HR. CROSBIE: Does the Premier know that Mr. Laing is reported in Hansard as saying that a request to that effect had been made·t Although the Premier has denied the fact in this House.

Surely, it requires more explanation than this. There is some kind of equivocation here. MR. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, before proceeding to Orders of the Day, I have a question to ask the hon. Minister of Highways. He is not in the House but possibly,like the Minister of Fisheries, he may be within sound of my voice. So, I will ask the hon. minister the following questions. What is costof obtaining replacement stickers for the lic,nce plates for cars, trucks, motorcycles - the replacement -tickers of these stickers which are now put on these vehicles? Perhaps the Mi.nister of finance can answer it. _MR.

HICXMAN: Before we proceed to Orders of the Day, Mr, Speaker, the hon. the Minister of Highways, I suspec~ is behind the curtain, I wonder if he woula ••• HR. MURPJIY HR. HICKMAN: Not the iron curtain, I wonder if he would now report to the House what action he has taken to prosecute the law-breakers who are constructing-in the the erection at the intersection of the Come-by-Chance road.on the Trans-Canada Highways, which he tmdertook to investigate two days ago and·which is apparent for all to see? ·MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. minister is not in the Ho~•!:e, I think it is out of order to ask questions to the minister, when he is not present. 6D1

April 1st., 1971 Tape no 167 Page 3 Address in Reply. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, it seems a long time ago now since the Speech from the Throne was delivered, because many things have happened.

The first impression with respect to the Speech from the Throne, the platform of the GovemlllE!nt which contains the wishes and aspirations of the Government for the year, is that this can be indeed likened to a last will and testament, a last will and testament of this Govemment and,as with respect to a lot of wills, a lot of last wills and testaments made by people, lf one waits fer too long for it to be made and,when it is made or when it is finally made, it does not set forth with the virbancy and with the enthusiasm the firm intentions of a good, young type of Government.

Indeed, there are many things in the Speech from the Throne, Mr. Speaker, which are good. It is going to be left to another group of pepple to carry out ehe good things in the speech from the Throne, as well as many other things> itself. Now at the particular time, shortly after the speech was given, there were a few notes that I made. The first was with reference to the Speech from the Throne, the fact that there are certain social reforms contained therein ,in the speech ,with respect to the court.

The first note that I put down is that I would like to have, the one that I certainly would like_ to have seen, legislative reforms provided for in the Speech from the Throne. Indeed, the events which have transpired since that time have made it patently more evident that there must be a complete and absolute revision of our concept of the operation of the legislature. Most important, Mr. Speaker, the most important thing for which any legislative organ exists is for the control of expenditure, the control of borrowing of people's money and the 692

April 1st., 1971 Tape no. 167 Page 4 Hr.. H:arshall; assessment of taxes. This has been beaten out over a long, long period of time, through the institutions which we have n~inherited, One likes to think of the British Parliamentary System as having evolved rather than revolved. It is true that there was much fighting to bring it about but certainly not as much bitterness as occurred south of the border,in the United States of America 1in their revolution. It was over a.llonger period of time. Ve can go back, Mr.

Speaker, to the fourteenth century in England, when King Edward III called Parliament together for money needs to wage his wars. At that time, it slowly began to become engrained into our system of life that the ability to refuse supply .which lay in the ordinary man in the street - refuse supply to the King - gave him control of his own affairs. George III, another King of England. later, in the eighteenth century, the latter part of the eighteenth century , was to find out this as well, to his. chagrin. What do we have here now, Mr. Speaker?

Your Honour what have we seen in the past few days/ It is a very, very serious matter. I would view the events that have transpired in the past few days u an abysmal violation ~f the rights of the people to control their expenditure. We are faced with a Bill that related to one-quarter of the year's expenditure of this Government. The people on the other aidetof the House will look at the Bill and inform this House that we are only asking for something on account. Some of the sages inside the.House and outside the walls of this House saw nothing wrong with it. I say;a pox on all their houses.

The fact remains, Your Honour, that once 1110ney is granted, no House of Assembly, no responsible Bouse of Assembly can renage- from the expenditures that were made with this particular money, And this $250,000 hopefully will be spent in a proper manner, an inadequate manner to further the interests 6 !J 3

April 1st •• 1971 tape no 167 Page 5 Hr. Mar-hall of the people of this ProVince. It certainly need not be and certainly the people of the ProVince, and the minority on the other aide, the ever growing minority on the other side,were denied their 11-gbts in a disastrous manner that bas never, to my knowledge , been eVident in modern times in any kind of democratic iovernment. B~ can we, Mr. Speaker, get to this stage?

The argument used on the other side. and,as I say,by some of the sages outside.who wish to jusU,fy events of the past few days. may well be that it -is all 1-aterial anyway, because Sup.ply bas to go through and expenditures have to be made. But this is not the issue, The issue

April ls~, 1971 MR. MARSHALL: Tape 168 JM - l was and is that closure was made with respect to a money matter. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. This is most highly improper •. ,, That debate is over.It may be referred to next session but not this. That matter is closed, the House decided on it, it cannot now be raised again- lt can next session or every year for the next thousand years but not the remainder of this year. MR. MURPHY: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: A point of order. Previous debates are not to be referred to in the same session. MR. MARSHALL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am not referring to the debate that went on in previous days, I shall confine myself then to speaking in terms of generalizations. I should have liked the Speech from the Throne to have provided that this rule 50, this rule with respect to closure, should never apply to money matters, to money bills. Now I am talking, Your Honour, about the Speech from the Throne itself and I am rather disappointed, very, very disappointed to see that the rules of this House and the rules of Parliamentary Government were not looked into. The same thing applies, Mr.

Speaker, of the rule or the law that lies before us now and has not been debated in this House,with respect to the borrowing of money by the Cabinet, This is an outrageous law. It allows the Cabinet of this Province, in secret session,to borrow hugh amounts of money. I have no doubt that when the delegation of the authority to borrow was given to the Cabinet of today,that it was thought that it would exercise it with restrain. Nov what have we seen? We have seen great evidences of restraint with respect to this, Your Honour.

This year approximately $68. million dollars was borrowed,in addition to that which was estimated.and there is no justification for it whatsoever. The power has been abused and has been abused rather sadly. The reason for delegation of authority to Cabinet has come about, again as a result of our historical bequest from the P.ritish Government, from Britian. Under that.in the dayA way, way bar.k vhrn tranAport~tlon was very hard, when the affairs of Government were becoming more complex,

April 1st, 1971 Tape 168 JM - 2 MR. MARSHALL: it became necessary to delegate authority to the Cabinet, it became necessary to delegate many, many things to the Cabinet,so that they could exercise their rights or they could carry on the Government of today without having to call the Legislature together,because it was too inconvenient to do. As a matter of fact 1 way, way back in history, that was in 1539, there was a statute called the.Statute of Proclamations'which gave the King.with the advice of his council,the right to issue proclamations with respect to the carrying on of Government of the land.

Now this was not abused, this was not abused by the people on the other side of the Atlantic, by our forefathers. It came to be only used for the purpose of carrying out administrative decisions but not for the purpose of carrying out policy or putting into effect policy and certainly it was never, ever-contemplated be in our existence that there should~borrowing of money by the Cabinet. It takes away the rights of the people of this Province or the right of any democratic pe~ple to be informed as to what borrowings are being brought about.

One of the rationales for it was the fact that the financial houses required it. That is ridiculous, Mr. Speaker, because the financial houses will not dictate to the peoples' House what they require. ut· As a matter of fact, in this day of advanced co11111Unication there is no need whatsoever of there being any delegation of authority to this Cabinet for the purpose of borrowing money.

Surely to Heavens $6R. million dollars was enough excuse last year to have called this House, ~o reconvene this House together,to allow the people of this Province to have known that the money was being borrowed,because they are the people who have to pay it back. It is utterly and absolutely ridiculous, lt is against all principles of our society. Then again, Mr. Speaker, we have the position in this House­ another Legislative reform I should have liked to have seen,and I am rather surprised that it was not contained in the Speech from the Throne,was the provision of an adequate public accounts cot1mittee.

This also is necessary to the proper operations of Govertll1lent and informing the people of any democratic society to what use their money was actually put. 696

April 1st, 1971 MR. MARSHALL: Tape 168 JM - 3 Government provides a Budget for a year, there is no machinery in this House other than the asking of questions itself. You can inspect the accounts of the Auditor General but there certainly should be a public accounts committee in this Legislature. Way back,about 102 years ago,the first Public Accounts Committee was established by the British House of Parliament now,102 years later, and at least one Government has gone burst in the duration,and we still have not had a public accounts committee.

Now I quote the British Parliamentary system of Government and I think that because this is the tradition upon which our institutions are based,and we do not quote them purely and simply because it is a matter of pride or tradition . although that is a good reason in itself,but there is a rationale between all of this, there is a reason why we follow the British Parliamentary system, The reason is that in every Governmental system,in order for it to work properly,the ~eople have to be informed, the people of the Province or the people of the nation or the people of the State, wherever you may be,have to know why money is being borrowed, on what is it being spent and afterwards the Government has to account why, the reason.and how it has been spent.

As I said before, Your Ho_nour, one of the reasons~in this land today and throughout the nation and throughout North America,that we have the unrest that we have is because of the paternalistic attit~de of Governments and the bureaucracy of the day. The young people, as a matter of fact e~erybody in the new generation,wants to know where our money is going{and this is not unreasonaole)and for what purpose is it being spent. and the fact that it is not is the cause of suspicion, sometimes undue suspicion, but it leads to difficulties.

I would suggest to this Govern- ment, and I do not expect this Government to see this point of view because this is a view that is different from the views of twenty, thirty or forty or fifty years,with which this Government is obsessed, but I would suggest to this Covernment,if it wishes to leave a real leP,acy,in ma~ing its last will and testament•to the people of this Province,it will update its

April 1st, 1971 Tape 168 JH - 4 MR. MARSHALL: rules and principles with respect to the carrying out of Government itself and with particular emphasis to the handling of money. Do not forget that the way in which Government is being carried on, not informing people where the money is going,makes people discontent and it sows the seeds of violence and is one of the reasons why violence is sweeping the Western Hemisphere in this day and age.

I would suggest that the hon, the Premier could well address himself to this particular point, because we will have more to worry about than Peeping Toms and a few people bugging telephones in the next few years,unless Government is prepared to come to grips with the matters that are before it, to tell the people what is being done with their money because,after all,we must not lose sight of the fact that it is their money.and then that is the first step to gettin~ this Province on a firm foundation.

We are going through very, very difficult times right now, and I would is suggest that~one of the reasons why we had the situation with respect to the teachers' strike,for instance,and the policeman situation last year and the other labour turmoil that we have seen existing from time to time via: the people who are employed by the Government and the Government itself. It is useless for this Government to turn around and say to a group of people, "We just do not have the money•" The reason why it is useless is that this Government never tells the people where its money is going.

It all sounds nice and easy to say that we must eome back to this House of Assembly after we have borrowed money and say that it has been borrowed. It all sounds nice and easy as well for -the theorist to sit back and say, ''All right; when you vote a large amount of money,without full discussion and after things have been cut off, it is all very well for them to say that they have to come back to the Government, to the Legislature for its approval of the spending of the money." But things do not work out that way.

A Government, the succeeding Government, the Government that succeeds this particular Government,regardless of the fact that it might regard many of the schemes, many of the reasons for the debts that are owing to be hare­ brained, something that they would not do, ridiculous, not of benefit to 6!)8

April 1st, 1971 Tape 168 JM - 5 MR. MARSHALL: the people, regardless of these conaiderations,any responsible Government has the right, no.t only the right but the du-ty and the obligation to honour the debts and obligations of the ptevious Gove~nt. There is nothing more important, Mt. Speake?', Your Honour, than legislative reform. There are other instances 699

April 1st. 1971 Tape 169 PK - 1 '"1t. MAR~HAI.L: of Legislative Reform that we should address ourselves to, First is the matter of the question period. One of the biggest reasons for the existence of the Legislature is that the Opposition and the Government can meet together for the Opposition to ask questions of the Government and the Government to supply answers and give 81'\ accounting of it stewardship of the people's affairs.

I find that last year, I know there is a rule in this House and I would have wished to see it in the Throne Speech,an indication that it was f!Oing to be changed or that the House was going to be asked to change its rules,to the effect that the Govetmment need not answer any questions. This was demonstrated last year. when some twenty percent to twenty-five percent of the total of the questions were completely ignored and not answered. Then,apain, we p,et some very smart tricks, · What I would style the smart tricks in the answering of the questions.

The Premier was asked, for instance, the other day,with respect to the Petro-chSl!l:l .cal Plants, could he, could he inform the House of the names of the three firms that were going to establish Petro-chemical industries? And he got up and he said,'yes:and sat down, Then on a supplementary question he was asked, would he? And he could got and he said, ''no," Big joke, Absolutely marvelous. They hinge on the words, on words on the questions ; to avoid them. And this is not the purpose f6r which this Legislature or any ley.islature exists. · _ I say, Mr •.

Speaker that it is an object or manifestation of the fact that this Government have been in here too long. we· saw on the faces of so many of the members on the other side of the House recently, p,reat smiles, p,r~at smiles when sqmething is put over on the Opposition. A great joke. They will laugh on the other side of their faces one of these days, when things backfire, as a result of their inability to keep .the care and control,of the affairs of the country.with which they are charged, 700

April 1 1 1971 Tape 169 PK - 2 MR. ~.ARSHALL: I think, Your Honour that the rules should be changed to require that this House should be asked to chanre its rules to require the questions to be answered. Now, perhaps, the office ~f the Speaker, should be strengthened, maybe to have the Speaker- MR.. CALI.AHA.~: Inaudible. MR. MARSHALL: This is the type of remark that I would expect from the hon. Acting ~inister ofFlnance and it is also the type of attitude we see in the House,from time to time,and he is one of the great perpetrators of it. But, anyway, Mr.

Speaker, you cannot,obviously, we know the difficulty of gettin~ the Speaker involved in any debates. But, certainly there should be some time limit for the answering of questions. questions should be able to be tabled by members of the Opposition, when the Legislature is not sitting. Come in and table the questions and have answers tabled.

You may tum around ~nd say~"well, where is this done elsewhere?• There is nowhere I know it is done elsewhere, but that is no reason why we should not change it.because the big thing in all of our deliberations -and consideration is the fact that there must be good faith shown in this House. There must be good faith. Perhaps , it would be unnecessary, perhaps it will be unnecessary to change the rules with the change of Government, because you will have a fresh group of people involved,who will be in r,ood faith and after all, this is all the Opposition is asking.

This is all that I am asking, is a demonstration of good faith on the part of the Government,towards the Opposition. But, certainly there should be some provsions where smart attitudes are not taken,with respect to questions that are asked. That there is sincerity· on the part of people on the other side. The Cabinet Ministers, when they are asked questions to answer them. And to answer them.in~the IMIIIDer that is obviously intended. You can play with words from one end of the day to the other. But, the point is we want the information.

It is absolutely imperative that the C,overnment ~ive it, and if it is necessary to chan,e the rules, so they should be changed. These are much necessary, I think, 701

April 1st. 1971 Tape 169 PK - 3 MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, this type of reform, as the reform with respect to the courts and justices,obviouslY, as necessary as they may be. There are other areas of reform that should have been taken into account in the Address and Reply or in the Speech from the Throne. How I make these suggestions, Your Honour. I might have written a letter, as the hon. member for St. John's West did, but knowing the way that the hon. the Premier has,the esteem in which the hon. the Premier holds the hon. member f6r St.

John's West,and he,knowin~ that i.was new at the game, I thoup.ht I better bring them up myself, because there is probably more chance of them gettin~ attentien. One of the things I must say, Mr. Speaker, that I am absolutely shocked about, that was not in the Speech from the Throne, is that there was not some provision in the speech to compensate the workers in this city, in the City of St. John's,who were adversely effected by the declaration of emergency,by the ¥unicipal Council of St. John's on January 18 and 20. I believe, it was, January 18 to the 20, as a result of a very, very heavy storm.

I am very, very, much surprised this Government, which says that it has done so much for the working man, did not address itself to this particular consideration. There was, Mr. Speaker, there was, as~ all know, a very heavy storm, which occurred on those days. We, also, know that the City Council declared a state of emer~ency for, I believe, it was the first time certainly in modern history, ordering people off of the streets.

This s~ate of emerFency, and nobody is faulting the cause of the state of emer~ency in that particular situation, and this state of emergency was recognized by the fact th~t- this Government brought into play the Department of Provincial Affairs and its Emer,ency Measures Organization,for part"of the time,to assist in it. But, at no time, at no time, has there been any effort made or any announcement of any effort made, either by the City of St. John's or by this Government,of efforts to compensate people who had their wa~es stopped, u a result of missing this employment. Now there were many of the employers 702

April 1st. 1971 Tape 169 PK - 4 MR. MARSHALL: around this City, many of them pay their employees without the necessity of being required so to do. But some of them did not. The most notable ~ompany that did not pay them was the Canadian National Railvay. This Government indicated its fear, trepidation,of the Canadian National Failway as it has in the past, is not going to talk to the Canadian National Railways or say anything to them or about them,despite the fact that they are the benefactors of a rail system, as a result of Confederation twenty-two years ago. It did absolutely nothing to compensate these works.

There should have been measures taken, and the measures taken should be this: it is most necessary to fonnulize this declaration of emergency. I BI!\ sorry to see that the Speech from the Throne did not con~ain an ~ct requiring employers to pay workers in the City of St. John's for the period that they were not working during this state of emergency.

I am aware of several instances, people in the City attempted on that day to get to their places of employment, but were~ turned back by the constabulary or were.turned back by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and were told to go back to their homes, Some of them were down at the C.N.R. The hon. the Minister of Economic Development knows this, as representing St. John's South, there are many people in his district were affected as well as people in my district and in the hon. the Leader of the Opposition and in St. John's East Extern, and they were turned back.

Now what are we going to do about that particular serious situation? Loo~. a statement was made, I made a statement with respect to it and it died, as most minority deals die in this Province. There was nothing said about it. But, certainly there are measures, there are very, very definite measures, which can and must be taken. One thing that was said, and with ~reat pomposity,with respect to the C.N.R. was; Oh! Ho! Well thP.v had the same situation in the City of London, in the City of Ontario during the winter, and in the City of Moncton, in New Brunswick, this is what they

April 1st. 1971 Tape 169 PK - 5 MR. MARSHALL: said. That is signed, but there is a marked distinction between the two, An organ of Government did not come out and dclare a state of emergency. The people,if they could have . crawled there on snowmobiles to their work to the C.N.R.,could have had gotten there, but there were persons who attempted to get to their place of employment who could not get there, so we had to do somethin~ about it. I would like to have seen

an Act, some type of Act or Acts,to compensate these people, to force the employers who,with bad faith,did not pay their employees, to force them to pay and,if they do not,to envoke the provisions, the same provisions as in the Minimum Wage Act; whereby an officer of the Del)arttnent of Labour, if an employer is paying less than the Minimum Wage can go out and take the necessary steps to see that it is paid. It is collected by the Department of Labour for the employee. This is something that should be done in this particular case,

An Act,or a measure should certainly be taken to help these people. But, I am not surprised, indeed, as I say, I am not surprised to see the Government taking no action, because of the fact , that it is apparently afraid of the C.N.R.­ demonstrated back in the past. And,very sadly 1 I have to say that . I am rather sorry, as well,to see the Municipal Council of the City of St. John's not taking a much stronger position with respect to it. 704

April. lat., 1971 Tape no 170 Page 1 Mr. Marshall. Another measure has become quite evident over the past few days here in this House that should have been brought in, Mr. Speaker, in the Speech from the Throne was some further definition with respect to the eligibility of persons to sit in this hon. House. Now I say this and make this suggestion, and I make this comment that,with all due deference to the Premier, I am not making this suggestion by 0 way of poking fun at a person's age or the hon. the Minister of Justice for that mattey or the hon. the senior member for Harbour Main.

There are possibly othe~s as well. But,certainly, when people approach the age of seventy years, Mr. Speaker, it is time, if they will not give up the reins, for them to be forced to give them up. I think in this case it would be a marked kindness for them too I think it would be a marked, marked kindness for them to~ before they are defeated in an election. I should like to have seen it provided it here that the members of this Bouse retire at the age of seventy. They do it in all other phases of activity. They do it in commercial practice. It is eixty-five in the Civil Service.

It is sixty and sixty-five in other commercial areas. You got the judges who retire, certainly at age aeventy-five.But they are considering a provision in the House of Commons now, Mr. Speaker, to have judges retire at seventy. That is perfectly proper. When they get to the age of - I am not talking about members of the Bouse of Common• They should have this rule toQ Certainly members of the House of Commons should MR. CALLAHAN: Why does he not retire himself? MR. MARSHALL: Members of the House of Commons, MR. Speaker - I am talking about this particular House here,for what it is worth.

I feel that members of the House of Commons should retire at age seventy. The House of Commons is 705

Aprjl _lst., 1971 Tape no. 170 Page _2 Kr. Marshall. fortunate, because in the House of Parliament of Canada, consists the two Houses. It consists of the Senate and the House of Commons. Very, very often, before most people when they get to age sixty-five but certati.y before they get to seventy, those that do not want to continue to hold on to the reins usually find themselves in the . Senate. We do not have a senate. It was abolished back in the 1930's,in the Legi,lative Assembly.

But certainly, there is no real reason why members of this House should be, by any means, subjected to any different rules than any other individual. At age seventy, I think,it becomes . quite obvious that a person should retire. They have gone on long enough and certainly, if I may remark, it becomes patently evident from the performance on the other side,. KR. CALLAHAN : Hr. Chairman, a point of order •• KR. MARSHALL: Certainly, and lose men at age thirty-five, forty, if we can find Cabinet posts for them. Anyway, Mr. Speaker, there is another element as wil.

As I say, I mean that, I mean that in all •incerity that I fee~ without any disrespect to the hon. gentlemen on the other side who happen- to be septuagenarians, over seventy years old - I •an this with no disrespect whatsoever, but-I do feel that time has come to consider retirement of individuals before they come to their aeventieth birthday, certainly, if they come to their seventieth birthday within two years of the date of the issuance of the writ of election. There is another matter, Mr.

Speaker, with respect to the eligibility of persons in this House,to which~ should like to refer and vhich 1 should have liked to have seen included in the Speech from the Throne and that is wi~h reference to persons on the City Council, persons in local govemment - there is no reason why a town councillor or a uyor for that matter should not be able to run, to offer themselves for election. Certain¥ once elected, there is no place for him. He cannot wear two hats. He should retire from the position as councillor or mayor or what 706

April lat., 1971 Tape no 170 Page 3 Kr. Marshall. have you, He should retire from his position with respect to what he holds in the municipal council. There should be a provision in the Act)to the effect that once he assumes a seat in this Assembly, his other function, his other office, is by virture of his assuming this seat deemed to be vacated, This is most necessary, Mr. Speaker. It is most, most necessary. We have seen the result of this. We have seen this happen sadly in previous houses of this nature, when 1110re than one-half, for instance; of the City of St.

John's, either ran as candidates and a few of them were elected to this Ho\l8e, They continued to occupy the duel position. The local government has proceeded surely to such a stage nowadays, such a stage of independence and vitality that there is no rational whatsoever. There can be conflicts between a duty as a councillor and as a member of this House. Certainly, as I say, this particular situation should not pertain. I cannot help but think, I cannot help but think, Mr. Speaker, that there is not enough pressure brought to bear by coumunity councils on the GoverDJ11ent of today,by city councils.

I would have to address ayself to my own in St. John's. Why has not the City of St. John's been pressing this Government,very, very seriously for this report of the Fraser Commission, to which my hon. friend from St. John's West alluded and apoke about the other dayl Why has it not been? It certainly should have been. The report was heralded as the most necessary thing 1 to increase and regularize the income of the City Council1of which we have not heard one whit nor one word from the City Council of St. John's.

There should have been more statements made, in my opini>n,and in the opinion of most ~~ple,of participation, of forcing the -Ge,vernment to act much more fully in the Mundy Pond and the urban redevelopment programmes. Again, we have the ignominious situation, Your Honour, where you have various levels of authority within the City itself. You have the Pippy Park Co11111ission. You have the Wedge Wood Park Council. Out in the environs, you have the 707

April 1st., 1971 Tape no 170 Mr. Marshall. Mount Pearl Cotmcil. You have the City of St. John's. All of these have to be regularized. I feelthat with the cotmcils being independent of the Legislature that we will have much more action in these areas. Then again, another reform that I should have liked to have seen. The Spe~ch from the Throne brought in various reforms. It certainly is a change, as I have already spoken about the other day, in the Civil SeTVice Commission.

Since I am not allowed to refer to what I spoke about the other day, I repeat some of what I said,so that I will be sure it will be on the record. The appointment of Civil Servants, Mr. Speaker, should be widened. the report that has come in - the Report of the Civil Service Commission hows most of the positions, virtually. all of the positions to be in the lower grades of the Civil Service itself. ·I feel that the scope of the Civil Service Commission ought to be expanded and expanded greatly. Before you do that, Mr.

Speaker, I would also suggest that the Civil Service Colllllission itself, its membership should be changed. I have already mentioned the fact that we have two Civil Service 1l:omadssioners. Now, one of whom is a defeated Liberal candidate. The other was a worker in the Liberal election. This is not good. Of all places to have · ~his - of all places to allow this - of all places to allow political patronage, Mr. Speaker. Surely, the Civil Service Commission is not the place for it. Now the late Mr. John Courage has passed away, and there is no longer a chait'l:llan. The Govemment will 708

April 1 1971 Tape 171 page 1. obviously had to address itself to the appointment of a Chairman. Now~I suggest,is the time for this Government to change the personnel on the Civil Service Commission and give it the proper type of powers as were suggested in the Royal Commission on Economic Prospects.

To give it the proper type of powers-so that we can have a vibrant civil service, an.;independent civil service and certainly there must be provisions in the Act itself to provide that the civil service,both promotion and appointment of the civil service shall be by merit and solely by the way of merit, that proper examinations be set up. Becauee,after all., Government in this Province consists of two organs the Federal Govern­ ment and the Provincial Government. The Federal Government has a relatively good civil service commission and a good strong Civil Serv.ice.

The people of this Province can expect no less from the other organ which has jurisdiction over them. An~th'er measure that I should like to have seen 1 Mr. Speaker, is a proper Bill or proper Act, measures taken to really provide for the proper tn,e of purchasing by Government. Now I have to say that the hon. the Minister of Supply at least has documented the type of programme or the manner which the Department of Supply operates. But this is really,Mr. Speaker, not purchased by public tender.

I have heard over the past few days references in this House,the purchasing by tender,and I Inquire reallyiwhat do you mean by tender·~ The tender as I understand it, in the Department and Services,is the fact that the Minister of Supply asks for thEee, writes a letter to three people on the tender list, from time to time, this is the way it is done in certain cases. I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that this is the mode of procedure that is adopted in this particular documentary.a

summary of purchasing procedures of the Denartment of Suoply merely sets forth the machinery that is bought into effect in a 709

April 1 ·1971 Tape 171 page 2. lot of other Provinces such as Nova Scotia. In the case of emergenctes, where public tenders cannot become ,-public tenders in the natire of advertising for the - and inviting public tenders for the item that is wished to be purchased. You may talk about the-cost, certainly you would not call a,tender for amoun~of fifty dollars, I know that. But all matters over, all items, all purchases over,say $~000 anyway, ou~ht to have the benefit of public tender, and public tender as such is advertising in the paper. Another instance Mr. Speaker, which I would like to refer.

Another type of reform that I would have expected this reform Government to have brought in, is some amendment to the public Enquiries Act of this Province. It is to me and to most people a matter of some sadness that a public enquiry was held recently into the affairs of the Town of Bay Roberts and that public enquiry was not a~public enquiry but was conducted in private. The public were not invited. Nobody knaws ,what went on. Nobody knew what went on. Not bein~ a slave to what they do in other Proviuces 1 as most of the items of the Government, the Government brings up in this nature and the nature of reform.

But I was interested in how they actually handled these in the other frovinces of Canada, and ' looked up the various Acts, or as many as I could get my hands on in the library, that~ available, or I had available. I found that with one exception all of the Acts are entitled th fublic EnQuiries Act. This adjective 'Public• has been utilized and generally must obviously mean that the enquiry is going to : be held in public. That it is 11:oing to be public and open, for people to see how it is being conducted, why it is bein~ conducted and the manner in which it is being conducted. It comes right back again,Mr.

Speaker, to my original remarks, that the people cannot be treated in a paternalistic fashion. The people are not children. The people on the other side of the House, the Government , ~1~ not superior 710

April 1 1971 Tape 171 page 3. beings, and I feel that the Government should use the words of the present Minister of Transport of the Federal Government;"tell it as it is." This enquiry should have been held in public and there should be a provision made with respect to it. · The Act of England, the Act presently in vogue . ~ in England, and I forget the actual na~e,Departmental Enquiries Act provides, specifically, that an enquiry of the nature of this particular enquiry must be held in public~unless in the opinion of the commissioner or commissioners a matter of security of the state is involved.

That qualification does not apply here in Newfoundland, matters of treason and security of the state are matters for the Federal Government. There is absolutely no reason why public enquiries are not public enquiries. Again. again;I have to point out,with respect to this public enquiry, my disappointment,over the fact that the Mayor of the City of St. John's was appointed as the Commissioner. This may not be a very popular thing to say, but the Mayor of the City of St. John's is also a former member of St. John's West.

The public enquiry was undoub~edly called,because, . regretablY, the Hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs was.at the time of the matters upon which the Auditor General reported,also Mayor of the Town of Bay Roberts. So,I do not feel, I do not feel that a former political colleague should investigate,.t111ake a public enquiry into affairs that could affect, hopefully not adversely bnt certainly could affect the Hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. We come to the reform of the Judicature Act, Mr. Speaker, I would agree, certainly, with the Speech From the Throne, with respect to placing women on juries.

But I think that women want exactly the same rights as men with respect to these matters, that, women should not be given the option, should not be treated any differently than anyone else and,why should they be ~iven the op·t1on of opting out of juries when men are not? Also I think that Bill 711

April l 1970 Tape 171 page 4. should have been expanded, I come back to the Civil SeTVice Commission again, or the Civil SeTVice, to include civil servants. The fact of the matter remains iB ::that that particular

section of the Judicature Act to which the Speech From the Throne refers was drafted away back in the year 1900,when there were certain businesses and functions of people that were thought to be very, very indispensable to the society of the day. For instance, you had telegraph operators exempted. Certainly~apart from the fact that the Judicature Act is to be revamped and given much more scope than the Speech From the Throne envisages, it also must be b~ought to the attention that Civil Servants ought to be able to serve on these juries as well,and certainly goes to show the reason for a Law Reform Committee.

Back to the.Reforms that are actually in the Speech From the Throne, There is one point,and we all agree with the reforms that are there only they do not go far enoµgh, as the Government never goes far en9ugh with respect to rights of people, They go too far when it comes to spending money, they are very generous with that. They are not too generous when it comes to giving people their proper righ~s and seeing that important rights are looked after. One that I am very glad to see is Legal Aid, is this Govern"1ent addressing itself to legal aid.

However, I again reiterate the fact, that the appointment of a person employed by the Government in the nature, becomes in the nature of a public defender of one person emoloyed by the Government, He becomes in the nature of the public defender ,and I would ask the Government to look very.very closely before they make provisions of this particular nature, 712

April 1, 1971. Tape 172, Page 1 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: The Speech Mr. Speaker, also goes into the fisheries and heaven knows we welcome the items which are going to be carried out with respect to the fisheries. We endorse every single one of them, and wish it were going much further. I am afraid it is rather empty from this particular Government. It is rather empty from this Government,which has advised in the past that people could burn their boats. Then they gave the appearance that they were ashamed of the fishermen.

We were going to create,in this great Province of ours,a Chicago, a Toronto, you name it, Tokyo, lately I gather Tokyo, probably a Rounia too, probably a little bit of Moscow in it as well, but in any event 'it became patently evident,from the record of this Government it becomes patently evident the fact that this Government was for awhile and still is afraid or ashamed of the fishery. It has done many thin~s,I know, but it has nat come down to brass tacks. It has come down tb steel tacks, it has come down to steel tacks.

It recovered a bit from its embarrassment in 1966 Mr~ Speaker, it recovered a bit then when it promised that we would have all boats built of steel oyer a certain tonnage. Now, did you ever hear anything quite as ridiculous as that? All boats were to built of steel. - tlectronic and suction pump devices would be used to catch the fish. Did anyone ever see anything as ridiculous as that? AN HON. MEMBER: The Russians are using them how. MR. MARSHALL: Yes the Russians are, but we are not.

It is too bad we do not have a few suction pumps to take up some of the members on the other side of the Bouse as well, we would be much further ahead in the fishery than we are at the present time. MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible) ~MpRPHY: What year was that, 1966? MR. MAllSHALL: There has been a lack, a general overall lack,Your Honour, of concentration on the natural resources of this Province, and particularly with respect tO the fisheries. You say, and I know, that there has been a lot of work done, there has been a lot of money expended.

But, typical of this Government, it will give the money without seeing that it is applied in a 713

April 1, 1971, Tape 172, Page 2 -- apb proper, sane, and sensible direction. Long range development programmes are needed. The first thing we must do with the fisheries,Mr. Speaker, the first thing that we must do, is insure the plant which we have. I do not mean boats with wooden bottoms or steel bottoms or suction pumps and so on, but I mean that we must really make an effort to see that we control the fishing areas out off the coast. 'When I say we, I mean the Federal Government. Obviously the Federal Government has jurisdiction with respect to this.

As usual, in its appointments of boards and committees, in its days of the last bunker, like in the days of the bunker - the last bunker in the fall of the Third Reich, committees are going all over the place, not for the purpose of involving people, but in an attempt to absolve itself from its responsibilities. As usual, the Government wants to make the Federal Government the whipping boy.

Now this Government has never really - it is up to this Government, it is up to the Department of Fisheries and the ~ minister of Fisheries of this Government to see that these things are carried out, and to go to the Federal Government and insist that they take 1D0re positive steps to extend control over, not just the twelve mile limit ••••••• MR. STRICKLAND: Yes, like John Deifenbaker did. MR. ~fARSHALL: 'Which is excellent, but control over the whole of the continental shelf. This ~overnment does not do that,Mr. Speaker, and I will tell you why. It is obvious, we all rejoice in Confederation ••• • •• MR..

CROSBIE: All of us. MR. BARBOUR: Get assistance now, get it WTitten down on paper for you to say it. MR. MARSHALL: 'When the hon. member for Bonavista South was out on the boom docks, I was pretty well a boy in my cradle,when confederation came, but I certainly lived to rejoice in it, and to rejoice that we still have the Premier after this period of time. Any, the unfortunate part about it ••••• MR. BARBOUR: Are you the shadow of the Minister of Fiaheries? MR. !-'.ARSHALL: The unfortunate part about it •••••••• MR. BARBOUR: ------- Will the time never come, and she never will. 714

April 1, 1971, Tape 172, Page 3 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: The unfortunate part about it,Mr. Speaker, is that tbis Government has never really, even after twenty-two years, understood what Confederation is all about. We have heard time and time again about ''Uncle Ottawa," We .have heard about the insinuations that Ottawa is a bottomless pit. MR. BARBOUR: Sure lawyers retire at seventy. MR. MARSHALL: We have heard all sorts of things. The hon. the Premier •••••• AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. MARSHALL: I say Mr.

Speaker, that this Goverrunent.because of its relationship with the Federal Government, because of its attitude of going to Ottawa like a beggar on horseback, has never really realized what Confederation is all about. I doubt whether too many people on the other side of the House, in the Cabinet, even know the difference between

section 91 and

section 92 of the British North Amer·ica Act. They do not realize that in 1949, when we joined the great Dominion of Canada,we did not give up, we did not throw everything over on top of the Federal Government, and sit back here and expect that they were going to send down money so that we could spend it. This is the impression that we get. Consequently, the same relationship as an uncle or a nephew, and the same relationship as father and son, after all, the hon. the Premier always referred to the Primes Minister as 1 Pierre'which always means father Trudeau. A father and son relationship all the way through.

Instead of the Minister of Fisheries and other ministers of this Crown going up to Ottawa and making sure that we have gotten our rights, they are satisfied to take their few dollars and go on, consequently, we get situations occurring. Up in Labrador, where, because of the white paper of Mr. Benson there are certain developments in Labrador which are not taking place. Expansions to the mines up there ••••••• MR. CA_!.!-!!~N: That is not so. MR. ~SH:'LL:_ That is so, they have been delayed. MR. CALLAHAN: (Inaudible) MR. MARSHALL: What do we hear from the other side of the House?.

What have we heard from the Government through the Minister of - what public pronouncements do we make? The problem,Mr. Speaker, is that we must obtain 715

April 1, 1971, Tape 172, Page 4 -- apb a plant, a plant that we must work. I would like to see something definite. Some definite action taken by this Government_ in fisheries, such as for instance, requesting the Federal Government to convene and international conference here with respect to the rights _in the North Atlantic. There is no other way, right here we are in the middle of the North Atlantic. There is no other way_ that the situationfhere in this Province,cannot be - the fishery situation cannot be brought more forcibly to the attention of other cou~tries. We all know that there are difficultiesiMr.

Speaker, we all know that there are difficulties involved in enforcing the twelve mile limit properly,because of these conventions and treaties. But this Government -has not shown that it is doing anything with respect to it. I would also like to see the Fisheries Department appoint the Fisheries Corporation, nevelopment Corporation that was referred to in the report of the Royal Commission on Economic prospects. There is nothing by the way,Mr. Speaker, more essential to our well being - to the economic development of this Province than the fisheries.

This is why we must dwell and spend an awful lot of attention on it. We cannot be ashamed of it. We cannot go out and abandon the inshore fishery as -we have abandoned it. We must take positive steps and one of these positive steps is to insure that the Government is proper~y informed, and to insure that the fishery is developed in a proper manner which is surely to develop this Fishery Corporation and I am going to quote , Mr.

Speaker if I may,page 198 and 199 of this ~eport that is already before this House.so it can be brought again to the attention of the Government. 11 If the Newfoundland industry is to grow in an orderly fashion, and on a sound basis, and if it is to become self­ supporting in the future, long term coordinated planning by experts must be undertaken. 11 716

April 1st. 1971 Tape 173 PK - 1 MR. 1'-'.ARSHALL: Then it goes on, in order to co-ordinate development it is sugrested that the development of the Newfoundland fishing industry should be placed in the hands of one powerful independent Fisheries Development Corporation, charged with making the fisheries self-supporting within ten years: 1966, within ten years, and nothing has been done on it yet. "And power to initiate and effect fishery development programmes, to manage the ,overall development of the industry; and to participate in the business activity should this be necessary to the fulfillment of its plans.

Provision of adequate training facilities for workers and management should also be the concern of the corporation." The Government has done something with respect to that, but certainly there is need for involvement in the f_isheries of this Province. There is need for involvement of the much maligned merc:,~~t . There is need for involve~ent of the fishermen themslves, through the unions. Most of all, there is need for involvement o.f· this Provincial Government. And you cannot make the Federal Goverment the whipping boys for the problems with the fisheries, you must do something with respect to it.

Not only just in fisheries, but in all other fields of endeavourln Government, there are many overlappin~ jurisdictions. Mr. Speaker, "ot only the Department of Fisheries. There are many areas in the Department of Economic Development where the forces of the Federal Government can be brought to bear, and the resources of the Federal Government can be brought to bear~ I must say that. I am ~lad to see, I do not know whether he is in harness yet, but I am glad to see that a step had been made in that direction with the appointment of ~r. Camm Ure, but I do not know whether he is there yet. l-'R. NOLAN: Mr. Ure. MR.

MARSHALL: Inaudible. 1'-'R. ~PEAKER: Order, please! MR. 1'-'ARSP.AI.J.: But, in any event, it should not be allowed. Your Honour, this should not just rest with a civil servant. Heaven·t-:.nm1s the Cabinet is big enour.h as it is now, I am not advocating any.exp~nsion of the Cabinet, much to the disappoint~ent of the few remaininr. backbenchers that are there. 717

April 1st. 1971 Tape 173 PK - 2 MR. MARSHALL: I am not advocating any expansion, it was heartening to see that there were only ten in 1949. Now it. has grown to practically half the House, which is another instance of being against or a policy that ts against accepted,unwritten parlimentary rules. MR. CROSBIE: Would the hon. member permit a question? MR. MARSF.ALL: Certainly would welcome it. MR. CROSBIE: Did the hon. member say that, the increase in the Cabinet is almost half the number of people of the House~might be caused by inflation or would there be other reasons? MR. MURPHY: Tight money. MR.

CROSBIE: It did not go down with tight money, does the hon. member think it went up with inflation? MR. ~ARSHALL: I think it relates to control. I think the situation is that it all relates to control and keeping the young bloods in line. In any event, Mr. Speaker, there should be an additional,now at the same time,a complete reorganization of the Cabinet,in additon to turning those out, but there should be a reprganization of Cabinet function.

And one of the most necessary posts in the Cabinet is a Minister for Federal and Provincial Relationships,to ensure that we have all of these programmes properly co-ordinated, to ensure that the voice of Newfoundland, to ensure that the Provincial voice of Newfoundland is heard in Ottawa. It has not been heard until 1968, when we had the great election, when we had the great results, but in addition to that, this Government seems content to sit back and not represent itself to the Federal Government as an organ of., a fellow, one of the eleven governments in Canada.

And there should be as I say, a Minister of Federal/Provincial Relat~onships,to ensure that all and each and everyone of these programmes are co-ordinated together. Now I could go on aqinfinitum about who should be cut out, but we will leave that until this time next year, when another persons gets an opportunity to do it. 718

April 1st. 1971 Tape 173 PK - 3 MR. MURPHY: ~xternal Affairs. MR. MARSHALL: External Affairs, the hon. the .Leader of the Opposition refers to. But, you know this is a real reason for this particular minister. We have certain heads of Government that we have to look after. And we are • superior with respect to these particular heads, property and civil right$, education etc., We have the same powers and ri~hts we had prior to 1949 . Confederation meant we gave ri~hts to Ottawa, other rights .which we had,to Ottawa.

But, as between ourselves and the Federal Government, we are a separate Government and a separate enity,and this Department of Federal and Provincial Relationship should be there. Now, Mr. Speaker, in the Division of Forestry, the Speech from the Throne mentions the forests, the development of the Forest Corporation is an excellent idea and a ~ood move, if it is done, and if it is done properly and if the experts that are used in it are listened to, if it is not just a purpose of using it as a whipping boy, as they have used so many of the other orF:ans of deleF:ations of various powers to various groups.

You cannot absolve yourself from responsibility of the forest programme of this Province. You cannot do it. I would like to read, this is a recommendation the Royal Collll!lission requires negotiations with pulp and paper companies or request it. Has this been done? How farl,as it gone? These are questions that must be answered. We must have complete untilization of our forest resources, as was shown in the Royal Commission. We must get much more satisfaction from the Minister of Mines, Agriculture and Resources, Mr. Speaker, than we have in the past, ce~tainly in this brief session itself.

The question was asked, Question No. 24 on the Order Paper. The question asked was -·how many cords of pulp wood were cut by Javelin Forest Products 9 Limited 4 at Lake Melville,durin11: 1970?' ' And the answer was; up to December 31, 1970, 75,343 cords. And then subsequently.what is the amount assessed? $42,156. What is the amount paid? $1,892.00. And why is not the rest of it paid? And he comes up with some, what I consider to be 719

April 1st. 1971 Tape 173 PK - 4 MR. MARSHALL: a ridiculous reply,to the effect that there is a dispute in jurisdiction, or there is a dispute between the Federal and Provincial Governments. Utter and complete rubbish. The fact of the matter is that, this is _just another take it easy time with Mr. John C. Doyleiwho gets the benefit of the Javelin Industry. MR. MURPHY: He got two and a-half million cords of wood. MR. MARSJtALL: He tot, and yes, he got two and a-half million according, to the prospectus of his file. It is a ridiculous situation, and it should not pertain.

We see up there in Labrador, in the Happy Valley area,that lffllCh wood has been taken, and I believe, it I.as been exported and at the end of it, and this is the wood to which we refer, I presume, in this question No. 24. MR. ROBERTS: It is going to Stephenville when the mill is opened. MR. ~.ARSHALL: Ri~ht, it was going to Stephenville, but,I say, Mr. Speaker, that not one cord of wood inithis Province should go outside the Province, and it should be utilized here and processed here, T:his is the only way that we are going to get into the twentieth century, is to learn to process our raw materials.

And it is fine, I know there is employment provided up in Happy Valley right now.with respect to the cutting of the wood. We know that. But, the fact of the matter is, ·if there were not Mr. John C. Doyle; he would be told t~ wait until the Linerboard Mill was up, or until _.some !)ther mill was up. AN HON. MF.MBER: Inaudible. MR. HARSJtALL: The hon. member - 720

April 1, 1971, Tape 174, Page 1 - apb MR. MARSHALL: After hearing the hon. minister ••••••• MR. CALLAHAN: (First

part inaudible) I just want to ask him if he is aware of two facts. Is he aware,in the first instance,that there is in the lav,as the law now exists, a requirement for the export of pulpwood from this Province? It 111USt be exported to a minimum quantity,by law. Is he aware of that? Secondly, is he aware that there are around this Province at least fourteen communities that traditionally, and right now, today, depend absolutely for their livlihood and for employment and for their economies upon that export of pulpwood, is he aware of that?

Is he further aware that without that export.as requited by law and otherwise arranged, these communities would be completely flat? MR. MARSHALL: I am Also aware Mr. Speaker, who has made the laws here in Newfoundland over the past twenty-one years. MR. CALLAHAN: Does he know who made that law? MR. CALLAHAN: Is he aware that law w.as made in 1938? MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I hope the hon. the minister is not going to force me to have to answer his questions •••••• MR. ~)._!.!.HAN: Come off it now, CAREFUL NOW. MR. ~.ARSHALL: To the news media.the same as he did at noon today. MR. CALLAHAN: Come off it now. MR.

HICKMAN: Would the hon. member permit another question.while we are on the laws? Is the hon. member aware that under the Revenue and Audit Act that if anyone is indebted to the Cro~, that the Crown cannot give or the Govermnent cannot give, or lend money to that person? And that $2.5 million was loaned or granted or guaranteed to Mr. Doyle,for his operation in Happy Valley.when monies were owing on royalties? MR. CALLAHAN: The hon. member is too smart a lawyer not to know the answer to that. MR. MARSHALL: I thank the hon. member from Bur~n, I am ~ot ••••••• SOME HON. ~ERS: (Jnaudible) MR.

MM!,SHALL: I am not as fully aware as the hon. the member for Burin was ~'1th respect to the situation, but certainly, from all we have heard, and 721

April 1, 1971, Tape 174, Page 2 -- apb all we have seen, I am not the least bit surprised as to what concessions have been given by this Government to John C.Doyle. et al, esquire, because they love to give concessions.

The hon. the Minister of Mines, could well address himself to the fact, that,if this Government had adopted a policy of manufacturing our natural resources, processing them to the farthest degree possible,over the past twenty-one years, there would be many more than twenty~ thirty or forty people,co111111unities ,dependent upon the forestry resources o"f this area. ~_CALLAHAN: The hon. member is showing his ignorance, just showing his ignorance. MR. ~.ARSHALL: The fact that it has not, the hon. the member for Hermitage for instance can attest to the fact that the people down at St.

Alban's - the problems that the people in St . Alban's are having with respect to even procuring wood, 1ecause of the concessions that have been given to the pulp and paper company. The hon. the member for Hermitage can alsq -attest to the fact that probably the best craftsmen in Newfoundland are down in the St. Alban's area,at the head of Bay D'Espoir. All you have to do is visit the splendid Roman Catholic Church down there and see the wood work that has been performed by the people of that area. Yet, the talents of these peop~e,Mr. Speaker, the talents of these people are not able to be used.

Why are they not able to be used? Because, this Government, this Government, has refused consistently to adopt positive programmes and policies for the utilization of our forestry products.as well as all of our natural resources. How many more people - look at the rate of unemployment we have, the shocking rate of unemployment that we have in this country at the present time. It is depressing, it is terrible the number of people that are unemployed. MR. CALLAHAN: He does not know what it is all about. ttR• MAR§ffA!