Volume 2 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 2nd Session VERBATIM REPORT Thursday, March 8, 1973 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 22

!-larch 8, 1973 The House met at 3:00 P.:'-1. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape no. 515 NM - 1 ?rn. SPEAKER: Order ~lease. I would like to welcome to the galleries today, forty-eight 1Zrade Vlll, lX and X tudent• from Sunny•ide HiP.h School, Sunnyside, with their teachers, Mr. ReRinald Gardener, Principal, !'fr. Calvert Allen and Mr. George Lockyer. We welcome you here and trust your visit is most interestin~. PRESENTING PETITIONS: T-"1. W'i. ROWF.: Mr.

Speaker, I beg leave to present to the honourable House a petition which I just received from some twenty odd families in a small community near Westport, White Bay South, the community is known locally as Hound Cove. The substance of the prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker, is that these families who were originally on. ~hat was the main road of Westport are now off on a branch road because the main road,sometime later after their road was built,went behind them.

Since that time this road of theirs,this oriP,inally main road but not branch road has not been kept up to standards as far as maintenance is concerned in any way. During this particular dreadful winter, these twenty odd families with some forty chi~dren goi~g to school have had to suffer for days on end without this road being plowed and the children have had to struggle over drifts of nine and ten feet in some cases in an effort to go to school. Needless to say a lot of school is probebly being missed as a result of that particular hardship.

The prayer of the petition goes on to say that they would like to have this one half mile of road, that is all it is,Mr. Speaker, sanded and adequately plowed quickly in the winter and in the summer time of course to upgrade the road and brin~ it up to standard and to do other things which are necessary. Mr. Speaker, I have no hesitation at all in personally supporting this petition. I think that their prayer is well founded and I ask, Sir, that it be received by this honourable House and 1605

~arch 8, 1973 Tape No. 516 NM - 1 referr~~ to the rlepnrtmP.nt to whlch lt relatr.n. M~. P. J. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition from the residents of Southeast Placentia, which I am sure has the unanimous support of all the residents of the Town of Placentia itself. I am more than pleased to have an opportunity to present this petition hecause it does provide me time to outline briefly to the House the serious situation which prevails in the Town of Placentia,with respect to water and sewerage for Southeast Placentia. But Mr.

Speaker, in order for the residents of Southeast Placentia to ohtain water and seweraP,e, there must be a new water Rource found in the Pl11centia Area. Now there have been several studies made and all the enRine~ring has been done on this, I think it was done in 1967 and then updated in 1970 or 1971, b~cause the Town of Placentia, Jerseyside, Freshwater are now supplied by the same source,and incidentally that same source supplied the base when it was in operation.

But the Town of Placentia itself, which has a population in excess of 2,000 people, r,et their ~ater from this source on the opposite side of the Gut. Now there are two pipes crossing the Gut in Placentia and late last fall one of these pipes broke and as a result, the reoidents of the town are lrft with just one pipe crossinP, the Gut and the water pressure there in the Town of Placentia itself is about twenty-two pound.

It is extremely difficult to operate such things as automatic washers and even they experience difficulties waiting with their pressure of water.that is trying to get sufficient water to flush toilets and things of that nature. The system in Placentia itself, Mr. Speaker. I am told has been there since really before the turn of the centurv. It is one of the earliest water systems in Newfoundland. 1SOS

March 8, 1973 Tape No. 516 NM - 2 In addition the situation in Placentia is desperate because the water lines themselves are old. There is not doubt that there are holes in these lines and as a result this poses, I respectfully submit, a serious health hazard to the residents of the town. There are no sewerage lines in the Town of Placentia itself and the only method of sewage disposal is septic tanks and cesspools. You do not have I suppose in any town in Newfoundland today the concentration of population -in such a small area as you have in the Town of Placentia. I really feel, Mr.

Speaker, without adequate sewerage for that Town, we could, if that water supply in the town should become contaminated, have a very very serious outbreak of typhoid fever. There is insufficient pressure on the line right now. In addition to that, there are holes in the existing line. With no sewerage facilities in the town itself, and you have the tide rising and the sewage coming up, it is just unbelievable, Mr.

Speaker, to think that in this day and age the situation with respect to water and sewerage prevails anywhere as it does in the Town of Placentia, one of the oldest towns in this province and as I mentioned earlier in another speech, once the French capital of this island. In addition, Mr. Speaker, I respectfully submit the Town of Placentia has a special claim for consideration for water and sewerage. From 1965 to 1970, eighty-five householders with their families were moved into the Town of Placentia, with an increase of 404.

There are today, over 2,000 people concerned and as I.said before, if this water line should ever be contaminated, you could be faced with a very, very serious health hazard. It is startling, ~tr. Speaker, to contemplate the consequences. I implore and beseech the government, particuarly the Department of Municipal Affairs,to give this matter 1607

March 8, 1973 Tape No. 516 NM - 3 aerioug congideration. Since th.- r.lectfon, I have h11d numerous consultations with th~ council ln the area and I have met with the Minister of Municipal Affairs. I hope he sees fit to support this petition because I do not know any other one is so urgent and so desperately needed as this one for financial assistance, Mr. Speaker. So I respectfully submit that this petition be laid on the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. Ap,ain, Mr. Speaker, I would ask for immediate .action on what I think is a very, very potential health hazard. MR.

SPEAKER: The honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. E. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the honourable gentleman from Placentia East and I do not agree on everything in the world of public affairs in this province, but I think we agree wholeheartedly on this petition. A number of us, Sir, on this side,have had representation from residents in the area affected by the prayer of the petition, the area of Southeast Plnce. We support it wholeheartedly without any reservation. These people have a very great need. The honourable gentleman, their member, h3s .eloque~tly and forcefully spoken of the need.

I will not attempt to outdo him either in eloquence or in force but I will merely adopt his words as my own W.hen he uses words as well as he has used them, I think that ie the least that we can do. These pE'ople have a need, Sir, at least as great as that of any othE'r pnrt of this province. It may be no ~renter thnn that of other communltif's in this province hut it ls n ~rr.nt ncE'd.

I do hop11 the r,overnment find lt in their wisdom nnd power to do somcthin~ with thlri tli!R yrnr nnd crrt:llnly, Sir, they shnll do so with our full support and with our wholehearted . nnd vc-ry Rtronr, request that action he taJ,:en this yonr to correct this problem. 1608

........ March 8, 1973 Tape No. 516 NM - 4 MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to support this petition. I have had a number of representations made to me personally about the water and sewerage problems in the Placentia Area, especially from Southeast Placentia. I might say, lir, that for some weeks pat, that the people in that area have had some difficulty communicating with their member but now that he has presented the petition in the Bouse, Sir, on their behalf, I hope .that he will hang right in there, he will not let go until the people down there get that badly needed water and sewer system.

NOTICES OF MOTION: HOM. H.A. COLLINS, MINISTER OF MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS AND I".OUSING: Mr. Speaker, I have the complete copies of the Kostaszek Royal Commission Report on Blackhead Road which I would want to tabled, also a complete set of of the St. John's Urban Region Study, which I would also like to table. MR. SP_EAKE~ The honourable Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Minister of Finance, I give notice that he will on tomorrow move the House into a Committee of the Whole to ~onsider ~ertain resolutions in relation to the advancing or guaranteeing of certain loans. MR.

SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation. MR. ROUSSEAU: I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the followinp, bill, "An Act To Amend The Welfare Institutions Licencing Act." MR. !!_ICKEY: ~1r. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to 1ntrod11c~ the: fnllowinR 11111, "J\n Act R<-spcctlnp, The Disposal nf Waste Material." 1609

March Fl, 1971 Tape No . 516 NM - 5 ~OTICE OF ~JEST IONS ANO ANSWERS TO Qll~STIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of MW1.icipal Affairs and Housing. MR. COLLINS 1 Mr. Speaker. I have the answer to question 41, on the Order Paper of February 26 • in the name of the honourable member for St. Barbe lforth, also answer to question number 46 • in the name of the same honourable member,on the Order Paper of February 26. MR. SPF.AKER: The honourable Minister of Education, MR. OTTENHEI'MER: Mr, Speaker,~t wish to table the reply to question number 36, appearinr, on the Order Paper 16 1 0

March 8, 1973 Tape 517 JM - l February 23 and asked by the hon. member for St. Barbe North. HON. DR. A.T. ROWE(MINISTER OF HEALTH): Answer to question number thirty­ four on the order paper of Friday, February 73, asked by the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a question in the absence of the designate Minister of Rural Development, the member for Trinity South, has there been any change in the status of the rural development authority? We have heard the moat intriguing stories from a variety of sources. Has there been any change in it? What is the story? MR. K)()RES: Mr.

Speaker, I think it is fair to say that the rural development authority was set up as an autonomous body in the beginning and with the establishment of the department it is now reporting to that department and that has caused some problems in getting it,as part of the department itself,but the position I think is well in hand now and will be clarified within the next few days. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question,since I cannot repeat the main question. It is obvious there has been a significant change in the status of it.

Has the authority, by which I mean the six members, this rather strange three ministers and three private citizens, has that authority ~een aboli~hed? MR. IDORES: The answer, Mr. Speaker, is no. The authority still remains in existence and still carries out the same function. It is to stop the overlapping of where the department or the authority, whichever one you want to take, happens that it caused the problems but the authority is still in operation as it was originally set up. Mil. ROBERTS: So in effect we are unstructuring the restructuring. MR. K)()RES: No, we are probably distructing and restructuring. MR.

ROWE(F.B.): Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the hon. Minister of Highway, Sir, and I apoloRize beforehand that thia 1• n bit r•pct1t1oua from other day • 1n vi~w of the fact that tho 1611

March 8, 1973 Tape 517 Great Northern Peninsula highway is still blocked with snow noTth of St. Barbe and the school students have only had five-and-a~alf days of school since February 12, can the minister give a0111e indication as to'' where the five pieces of snow clearing machinery are now that were supposed to go to St. Barbe North? Could he also, Sir, give some indication as to whether or not he has received any reports regarding the supervision of the snow clearing operations in St.

Barbe North and the fact that it is not so much the machinery itself and the amount of snow itself but it is the way that the machinery is being used in the district and the fact that there do, not appear to be enough shifts and the machinery does not appear to be working throughout the night even on some very clear nights? DR. FARRELL: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. member for St. Barbe North what school he is speaking about and what area. HR.

ROWE<F.B.): The school, Sir, under the Straits of Bell Isle Integrated School Board and they have two schools in Flowers Cove, they have a school in Green Island Cove and a number of other small schools going up, not one specific school, Sir, but the superintendent of the school board, Mr. Galen Campbell~did contact me by phone yesterday, in fact he was on tije air with CFCB in Corner Brook and he himself has suggested that they have missed five-and-a-half days of school since HR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. ROWE(F.B.): I Rm answering a question from the hon. Minister of Highways, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: I am sorry.

Proceed. JM - 2 DR. FARRELL: Mr. Speaker, could I ask the hon. member that on the first request, if he does not mind me mentioning the questions he asked me a couple of days ago, you said seventeen days missed. There were seventeen days you mentioned a few days ago from Flowers Cove and now it is five-­ and-a-half. 1612

March 8, 1973 Tape 517 MR. ROWE(F.B.): Mr. Speaker, I am simply repeating information that has been passed along to me by the superintendent of the school board in St. Barbe North, the Straits of Belle Isle School Board,and a number of reputable citizens and I would be quite prepared, Sir, to give the hon. miniater the names of these individuals,outside of the chambers of the House, Sir. I do not think we should bring these individuals names up at the present time. This is the information that I have received just twenty minutes ago, Sir. DR. FARRELL: I am sorry, Mr.

Speaker, if he would like to have the answers to the questions which you gave me not today but the day before and which I have found the answers for. 'Jhere were different references to times of school closings than you have just given today. It is a fair statement,just like your fair statement attacking the Department of Highways. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). DR. FARRELL: I am sorry, Sir, the hon. member. It was a question,that no attempts were being made to push back snow banks and this type of thing. I will not ask for the author of these statements but I did check most of the questions out.

All suitable snow clearing equipment, machines in St. Barbe North ~re working full-time whenever weather or other conditions permit and in many cases it is very difficult to JM - 3 push one lane p~ssage through snow drifts because it fills in again overnight due to conditions, Sir. knows there is little Anyone knows the straight shore up there, if any opportunity or time to permit the luxury, probably I am using the wrong term, of pushing snow back from those cuts because it is hard enough to keep them open as it is. MR.. ROWE(F.B.): It is certainly not a luxury, Sir, it is a necessity. DR.

FARRELL: All right I am just telling you. I am answering the question, Mr. Speaker. MR. ROWE(F.B.): (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order please! 1613

March 8, 1973 Tap• 517 DR. FARRELL : I am orry. You ••k~d •a•in today thouah if I could give a report on what we were doing on that and l pra umed -I am orry if I am - AN HON. MEMBER: Do not be so touchy - AN HON. MEMBER: Shut up,ignoramus. DR. FARRELL: I am not in the least touchy. JM - 4 MR. ROWE(F .B.): Mr. Speaker, a point of order. A point of order, Sir. Sir, I asked two questions today and I am not getting answers to them.

The minister is referring to five questions that I did not ask in this House and I gave him these five points outside of the chambers of this House, Sir, and now he is trying to embarrass me by bringing this up and saying I ask them in the House last day. DR. FARRELL: Mr. Speaker, I certainly have no intention of ~barrassing the hon. member for St. Barbe North. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order please! DR. FARRELL: I am in a very good mood, Mr. Speaker, a very good mood.

As far as the five pieces of equipment we sent out there,! do not know at this moment but I will certainly find out exactly where they are, Sir. And the second part of Y.our quest~on was? MR. ROWE(F.B.): The second part of my question, Sir, was,and I again tress, Sir, that this is not firsthand observation on my part, it is a result of reports that have come to me by phone or by mail, I have received a great number of reports that one of the biggest problems with the snow clearing operation in St.

Barbe North is the actual supervision of it and the way that the machinery is being used and I simply asked the minister if he has received any similar reports. DR. FARRELL: No .• Sir, I have not received any as far as the supervisory people around the coast, direct complaints from them,and they are doing the best they can as far as I know. HR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I have a question I wish to direct to the 1614

March 8, 1973 Tape 517 JM - 5 Minister of Highways regarding the Red Bay road. Could he inform the House, Sir, a• to the official report from the Department of Highways in that area to what progress they are making in clearing the Red Bay road · today? DR. FARRELL: Mr. Speaker, I would like for that question to be tabled and I will endeavour to find an answer. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, yesterday I directed a question to the hon. Premier and he promised the House that he would undertake to get the information concerning the steel plant, I wonder if the Premier baa any statement to ~ake today. MR.

MOORES: The answer, Mr.Speaker, is no. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question concerning the steel plant, would the hon. Premier indicate whether or not steps are being taken to dismantle or scrap the steel plant? MR. MOC1RES: Mr. Speaker, I have no idea. I do not know if the Minister · of Industrial Development does and if he does I am sure he will answer the question. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, there are no plans in the working at the present time for dismantling or scrapping the steel plant.

We are carrying on negotiations or 4iscuesion,,s with various interested groups and when we formulate a course of action we will certainly inform the hon. House. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, that is rather interesting. The Premier told us yesterday that to his knowledge there were no proposals to sell the steel plant. MR. DOODY: Excuse me, Sir. The Premier is absolutely correct,of his knowledge,th~t we are not. I am the Minister of Economic Development. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary queation and I can tell the hon. minister that there are propo11als to buy the ateel plant. MR. DOOP'(_=.

MR. ~•i.A..~• steel plant? Why ask the quetlon7 Wtll tho minister indicates what ocurity tlu:y havo:s now at th• 1615

March 8. 1973 Tape 518 IB-1 How is the property protected and how many employees are now down there? Have they all been terminated or is there a security staff there? Just what is happening at the steel plant now? MR. DOODY: Mr, Speaker, how many questions is that? MR. NEARY: That is one question. MR. DOODY: No, Sir, there were about six. I will take notice and get the information. 'MR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, the arrogance of this government, the arrogance. We cannot get the information. HON.

GERALD OTTF.NHEIMER: (MINISTER OF EDUCATION) : The honourable gentleman has the ri~ht to answer or to take notice of the question.The honourable gentleman opposite does not have the right to argue with the minister's desire to take notice of that question. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker - go back to Cambridge. That is not a point of order. That is not a point of order, Mr. Speaker, MR. SPEAKER: Order please, MR. NEARY: I would like to direct a question to the honourable Minister of Social Services. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

I would like to remind honourable members that the minister does have the right to refuse to answer and to take notice of Aame and 1t Ahould not be debated. MR. NEARY: Mr. Spenker, the arrogance of this government. He does not want to answer the question. That - MR. SPEAKER: Is the honourable member for Rell Island asking a question? MR. NEARY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I want to direct a question to the Minister of Social Services.

Will the Minister of Social Services indicate to this House what will happen to the provincial old age assistance of thirty dollars a month when the federnl old n~e pension is incrensed the first of April. Mr. Spenkrr, 11'1 thr mln1.Rter 17.01n11, to nn!'lwer the .,uestion? H()N •. /\NTIIONY - .J. MPRl'IIY :~ Nl STEP OF sor.IAI. .ASSlSTANCE) : The minister 1616

March 8, 1973 Tape 518 IB-2 ia not going to answer the aam• question every day the week. I told th• hnnnuuhl• 11111111br ya11terd11y. If' h• ie tntareat•d in th• welfare of the reople, I would appreciate tt 1 hut he ia not. KR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I did not get the answer to the question yesterday and I am amid - KR. MURPHY: Well, I refuse to answer. 1'fR. NEARY: Mr, Speaker, I want to direct a question to the honourable the Premier.

Will the honourable the Premier indicate whether old age pensioners in this province are gof.ng to continue to get their thirty dollars a month when the federal old age pension is increased the first of April? The minister will not answer. Will the Premier answer? HON. FRANK D. MOORES: (PREMIER): Mr. Speaker, just as a point of politeness only. The question was asked yesterday. The Minister of Social Services said that it would be answered in due course, That due course I would think is when the budget is brought down. Then the honourable member will have his answer to that particular question. KR.

NEARY: That is too late, Mr. Speaker, I have to have the answer before that. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The honourable the Premier. MR.MOORES: If I might just comment on the question itself. It may be too late for the honourab.le member: If anything is done, it will not be too late for the elderly people concerned. MR. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing? Is he or his department doing anything to stall the ever increasing cost of building lots in the city? I see by the morning's paper where building lots have gone up now to $15,000.

Surely within a very short time they will be out of reach of all ordinary citizens of this town or outside of the town. HON. Hi\ROLO A. COLLINS:('IINISTEP OF MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS AND HOUSING): ~r. Sneaker, I think that queBtion 1A noted and we will have a,,answer for the honourAble member. KR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Forestr~ and Agriculture. 1617

March 8, 1973 Tape 518 IB-3 Could the minister inform this House when the Cook Report will be tabled? HON. EDWARD MAYNARD: (MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE AND FORESTS): The Cook Report will be tabled, Mr. Speaker, as soon as it jg completed. Right now it is being redrafted into a final form by the people who did it up, the National Research Council in Ottawa. MR. THOMS: I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. Could the minister inform this House if there is any move afoot within his department to freeze farmland within the area surrounding the City of St. John's? MR.

MAYNARD: That question is noted, Mr. Speaker. MR. W. ROWE: I would like to ask a question of the minister responsible and if no minister is directly responsible then the Premier. Would the minister responsible indicate to the House at wh~t time the new Special Areas and Highways Agreement under the Provincial Department of Regional and Economic Expansion is likely to be signed and made public? MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, we are present!, looking at an amenlment to tr, second DREE Ayreement which will be available to this province for this year.

The third agreement will be entered into at the time when the various task force committees have brought in their reports and the government has a comprehensive plan,which in one of the favorite expressions of thP honourable member from Bell Island, to present to Ottnwn,tn nn ovcrnll progrnmme of progress fnr th~ province. In the meantime there will he nn interim amendment neRotiated for the present DREF. Ar,reement. MR. W. ROWE: Hr. Spenker, could the minister indicate when this amendment, this supplementary ngreement to agreement number (2),is likely to be announced publicly. MR.

OOODY: I think it will be - well, of course, as the honourable member knows.it is more in Ottawa's control than the provinces but I would think 1618

March 8, 1973 Tape 518 IB-4 that it will be in a matter of a very short time, say a matter of weeks. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the honourable Minister of Education and Youth. Could the honourable minister inform this House what time he expects to get a report on the special committee which was established to study recreation in this province,headed by Mr. Terry Trainor? MR. OTTF.NHEI\IBR: Mr. Speaker, since restr'l!cturing I do not expect now to receive that report. I would presume that that would ~o to the honourable Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation. HON.

JOSEPH ROUSSEAU: (MINISTFR OF ~EHABILITATION AND RECREATION): I will take notice of the question. ORDERS OF THE DAY Motion second reading of e bill, "An Act To Amend The Legislative Disabilities Act." MR. MOORES: It was adjourned, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like just to carry on with a few very brief remarks pursuant to what I was saying the other day before we adjourned the debate on this particular bill. That is to say that today with the demands of government offi .ces, particuhtrily that of the Premier , there is a very heavy worklo~d for a great many things that had not been the case before.

In a great many•instances there are people who are members of this House of Assembly who can much more ably do,because of their knowledge, both in the public ,service and the knowledge of the province generally, are much better in a position to do this work than would be somebody contractual from outside. Today we have, Mr. Speaker, a situation where we must develop research and have more knowledge about such Projects as I mentioned the other day, for instance doing the Great North Norway Plan.

We had to take it to the other side of the co:l.n where craft development and the handicapped had to be given consideration and mayhe there is a special programme going on somewhere where this sort of assistance could be required. We have too, with the Intergovernmental Affairs Division 1619

March 8, 1973 Tape 518 being set up in the Pr~mier's office,a great deal of work '.to be co-ordinate~ there as well. IB-5 There are also, Mr. Speaker, various briefs that come in from time to time that are very hefty. They have to be researched and precised so that decisions can be made more rapidly.

All in all the bill as presently before the House will have a few minor amendments when the bill comes before committee I think the parliamentary assistant to the Leader of the Opposition will be changed to the Leader of the Opposition and in the case of the special assistant in my office,who has been there for some time, the member for Green Bay, that will be made retroactive to the time he started actually working in the office. I think with these two amendments, Mr. Speaker, these will be the only chanp,es. As I say, I think the need is genuine.

I think it is great and I think if we abuse this particular privilege, I think we will stand to pay the penalty for it. I think this act itself basically was - we have continunlly tried to amend it from tfme to time or set it up for specific enquiries,which is always politically, I suppose, hay for political fodder. Really what we are saying here is that we are now amending the act so that it has the versatility which I think is required at this particular time. I will be speakin~ after the spokesmen on the other side have spoken on this particular sub .1ect and Mr.

Speaker, I would just like to close those remarks now. MR. ROBF.RTS: on this, Sir . Hr. Speaker, let me .1 ust make two or three r,reat re-points First of all, of all the memberR fn the Hn11Re, I should be the last one ever to Rpenk nRninAt the principle of n parliamentarv RSAlstant to thl:' l'rl:'m!rr hrcnuqe,nA thE> Premlrr hns nald 9 thr 1620

March 8, 1973, Tape 519, Page 1 po•ition was created originally by this House in 1966 or 1967 largely for me, t had been the executive assistant to the then Premier, Mr. Smallwood. In the summer of 1966 I resigned that position and went to White Bay as a candidate and was returned by the voters there in the election that fall,

an act of kindness, wisdom, generosity whatever one wishea,which they have seen fit to repeat twice by increasinR margins. I wish the same could be said of my party throughout the province, ~r. Speaker. The Premier has outlined the need for further assistance for him and the government feel that these people should be drawn from the House of Assembly. We agree with that. The Legislative Disabilities Act must be amended because a member of the House cannot accept payment from tle p,overrunent other than his sessional indemnity and expense allowances,unless there is specific legislative provision.

The Legislative Disabilities Act is the act which permits such permission to be ~iven and of course that is the effect of the amendment. The retroactivity make$sense, because the honourable gentleman from Creen Bay has been working with the Premier for some time now and if the act is not amended to come into effect as of a given date in the past, then the Premier is in the unhapny position of not being able to authorize or the government not being able to authorize payment to the gentleman for work which he has done. Again, that is not a new principle, Mr. Speaker.

The original act allowin~ a parliamentary assistant. That act was put throur.h in the session which bepan in the winter of 1967. I had been at work as parliamentary assistant to the Premier since the fall of 1966, since the election in fact, and had worked for no pRy.When the bill went throuhh and it became lepal to be paid, I was paid retroactively. t'Y bank manap,er was exceedinr.ly r.rateful for that.aR wast. I ~'Ould also like to thank the Premier for ap,reeinp, to allow the opposition, I ~ather he is goin~ to chan~e parliamentary assistant to House Lr.ader of the Opposjtion. That hns heen worked 1621

March 8, 1973, Tape 519, Page 2 -- apb out. I think that is a ~ood thing. My collea~ue,the House Leader,is too h1111hf11l to hr prriiE'nt hut I nm ,mrf' th,at he h1 within nmpe of my vo1cn nml hr lu,,. ,rnkrd me, to 11ay thnt while ht- fa too ba11hru1 to be preaent,1n a half-sertoua fashion,he believes his bank mana~er will be grateful. He may be on the phone to the bank manager at present lobbyini for this amendment. The work of the House, ¥r.

Speaker, is becominp more complex. lf we are to go ahead with the new rules which are bein~ worked upon by a committee, by an informal committee at pre, 1t because,of course, the select committee lapses when the House lapses _ then we will be making further changes which will require more attendance from each member. I think that that 111 a ~ood thinr,. l think that if Newfoundland wishes full-time politicinns,Newfoundland must make it po11sih1e to have full-time politicians 11nd the rates of pay and the other hf'nefit11 mu11t be comnensurnte with whnt men could reasonably expect to ~rt in private life.

I am not saying they have to be the same. A member of the House who is a lawyer should not expect to earn as much for service to the House as he would at law, or doctors can earn more in private practice,especially now with the new fee scales,than they could as a member of the House, but still, Sir, if we wish mE!l'lbers of the House to serve the public full-time, the public will have to be preapred to pay for it. I do not think this will he Rbused. As the Premier has said, thf're 111 n r,•mecly in the- hnndR of thr electorntc- nnrl he ia 111,1are of it. I am even more aware of it.

The electorate .ore fully awnrc- of how to use that remecly nnd I can assure him on thr ba11is of what I l<now that they have no hesitation whatsoever in usin7 the re~edy which is theirs if they feel it is nP.cessary. We will support the bill. l-fR. SPF.AKER: If the Premier speak now,he closes the debate. HON. F.D.l- 100RF.S (PRDtif:P.): !fr. Speaker, I would like to thank the members of the opposition for takinp, this enli~htened view. I think 15~2

March 8, 1973. Tape 519, Page 3 - apb ha•ically what we are talking about really is the integrity of the people in the various positions to U1Bke sure that it is not abused, I am sure that the press and the public will make sure that it is not abused, I think it is legislation that is very badly needed and one that we intend 1 as I said previously,not to take advantage of for political reasons but rather for the sake of exr,ediency and efficiency. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, I would move second reading of this bill.

On motion, a bill; ''An Act To Amend The Legislative Disabilities Act.' ' read a second time ordered referred to Cot1111.ittee of the Whole !louse presently, by leave. On motion, second resdinp; of a bill; "An Act Respecting The Department Of Rehabilitation And Recreation." HON. J.G.ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, just a few short co111D1ents ·and any questions that honourable members across the House may have, I will attempt to answer them. The Department of Rehabilitation and Recreation grows out of parts of the old Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation and parts of the Department of Education and Youth .

There are two halves to the department and the Division of Rehabilitation is responsible for the homes for senior citizens or the homes for special care. Also, the special services unit,which contains the rehabilitation unit that was recently set up,will be also part of the department (Division of Rehabilitation) and the institutional schools, that would be the boys' and girls' training schools, the two boys' training schools,here in St. John's,at Pleasantville~and at l~itbourne and the girls' training school.

In addition, the Division of Rehabilitation will have the Northern Labrador Services Division and that act will be introduced shortly. The Northern Labrador Services Division of the Department of SociAl Services an<l Rehabilitation 81'1 well as the functions of the Department of Labrador Affairs wil 1 now be Rubsumed under a division of Lahrarlor Servicen,jn that half of the department, the rehabilitation 1523

March 8, 1973, Tape 519, Page 4 -- apb half. The recreation half is composed of what was the Physical !ducatfon and Youth Division of the Department of Education with one chanie in that now, the two divisions will extend to the Division of Recreation and Sports Activities,and the Division of Youth Activities is presently beinR structured.

Its basis will be the 4-H field workers who were previously in the Dtvision of Physical Education and Youth and from that we will build on with the necessary personnel and the Division of Recreation and Sport,of course, is the mainstay of the Physical Education and Youth Division of the Department of Education. The department iE one that is composed in essence of the elementR from the Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation and the Department of Fducntfon and Youth and the Department of Lahrador Affairs. MR. NF.ARY: Like all the other bills that have been brought into this ------ --~ .

House under restructurinr, 1we think it is a great waste of time, waste of the peoples' money and waste of the time of this House. In this particular cnse, Sir, I think tlu\t the p;overnment have made a very grave mistake, a very grave error in judgement. I do not think they should have separated the Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation unless, Sir, they took in the Department of Health or the Department of Manpower and Industrial Relations.

Certainly, the way they have done it now, Sir, it is ~oinR to cause a lot of headaches for the minister who just introduc~d this bill and the miniAtrr of Socfnl - I nm not Aure ff he is Social Services or Social ARRfntn11cc' - T rltfnJ , In the• her,lnninr: thf' T'remJrr RRld it would bt' Soc1nl A~slt:tnncc-. ln otlirr wordo, the m1n1!1trr would JuRt be renronr.1 )J] e for l !'1Bu1 nr chrriues. hut now I b1! 11 t'Vf' they have chnnp,ed it to SociRl Services to r,ive him a little prRndlosc title and mnke the minister feel li~e he is doinp something.

Sir, all the field staff nnd all the 1mcil1l workers and welfare 1624

March 8, 1973, Tape 519, Page 5 -- apb officers and so forth are all in the minister's department. There are many aspects of the Department of Recreation and Rehabilitation where we will have to draw on the social workers and welfare officers, and who is ~oini to be responsible for their supervision, Sir? I would like for the minister to tell us that. Is the minister going to build up his own empire down there? Have his own staff? Just how are the two departments goin~ to work?

Because the work is so interrelated, Sir, it is almost impoasible to separate the wor'., I think it was a grave m1stake to separate the department in the first place, but I would like to hear the minister's co11D11ents on this when he is closing the debate. MR. W.N.ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to reaffirm for my own part what the honourable member for Bell Island has already said. First of all, this is just another one of these bills, these restructuring bills,and usually they are pretty harmless.

There is not much of a problem in them when you move various divisions from one department to another,all they do is waste money, take up time of officials, time of cabinet ministers and time of members of this House, and that is all the damage they really do which is not by any 1625

March 8, 1973 Tape 520 PK - 1 rne11n11 a lot of damap.e Aomethinp; that we can p:et over \olith in a few montha. P.ut in this particular bill I am afraid what has happened may be harmful, may be more pernicious than what has happened with repsect to some of the other departmental restructruing and structuring . It seems to me it is n mistake in principle without havinp any expert knowlerlp.e on iaiocial a11si11tance, social welfare or related topics.

It seems to me there is a mistake in principle in isolatinp: a department which then becomes the department which is really only interested in what a lot of laymen would call issuance of dole or money orders or dole orders for people who are on social assistance, short term or long term. I would imagine other thinss are involved in that too. Perhaps widows'allowances and that sort of thing will probably stay with the department which is fssuinp: these cheques.

So that fthe department, this Department of SociRl Assistance or Social Services,whatever the name mipht he,hP.cumeR really a sort of n department for payinp: out money and 1t in 1Rolated from renlly what is the most important function of sny p,overnment when it comes to social welfare,namely tryinp: to rehabilitate, 1 to fit in welfare schemes with other on-going thinp:s, manpower, rehabilitation and field staff and all that sort of thing. The welfare officer should always wear sev':ral hats •.

He is involved not only in dishinF; out money to people who cannot find work or who are disabled or incompetent or somethinp: along those lines. lie also should he trying to enquire into such thfnp;R as motivation and any prohlems that mip:ht create the situation or that might he cauRinp the situation,with a view to finding cures and remedies for them. So I too would like to hear the honourahle m-fniAter of thtA proRpective, new rlepartmcnt, the bill of which w~ are now dfscuARinp,,the nepnrtment of Rehabilitation and Recreation. What are his vfrws?

Ohvious]y he must support this division between the old department,for want of a better word, and the rehabilitation department. I would like to hear his feelinRs on what kind of conflicts are likely to emerF;e between two ministers, For example, 1526

March 8, 1973 Tape · S20 PK - 2 we have two separate.under the one ~overnment it is true but two separate departments growin~ up now with two political heads. Whenever that happens, whenever there is any overlapping sometimes you ~et conflict, ometimes you get a lessening of morale with regard to the officials who are not quite sure as to what their duties are. I would like to hear the ministers on this.

It seems to me at first si,.ht to be wrong in principle to separate that aspect,that is the aspect of ~iving out money for short-term, long.term assistance into one department and make that department responsible only for that activity and then to have all the really laudatory types of things, the combating of rampant welfareiR111, combating of unemployment so that people on short-term relief can get back to work and all that sort of thing,to have those isolated away in either one department or several departments.

Maybe I am wrong aa -I will be the first to admit when I hear the arguments of the honourable minister,if they are convincing. But at first blush, at first si~ht, I must say it seems to me to he a step backward rather thar forward, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKF.R: Before any other honourable member speaks,! would just like to say that we have another group of students just arriving into the galleries. I would like to welcome forty-two Grade X students from the John Burke Regional High School in Grana Bank,with their teacher,Mr. Maxwell Snook.

We trust that your visit here is most enjoyable and indeed welcome you to the ~alleries. HON. T. HICKEY: (MINISTF.R OF PROVINCIAL AFFAIRS AND F.NVIRONMENT): Mr. Speaker, I would just like to add a word of support for this hill, havinp. been the former minister, the old Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation. I would like to correct at least some of the remarks or set aside some of the fears expressed by honourable members on the other side. The government looked at this very seriously for a long, long time before makin~ the final decision in terms of dividing the old department. It is 1627

March 8 , 1973 Tape 520 PK - 3 wrong for anyone to s~Rest that the Minister of Social Assistance is only responsible for the issuing of cheques, nothing could be further from the truth. The Minister of Social Assistance,as I understand it, in this bill is responsible for the field staff as they now exist. He is responsible for all prograrmnes under the social assistance,under the Canada pensions ar,reement. He is also responsible for child welfare, responsible for E!T'lployment opportunities and he in fact is responsible for the field staff as they presently exist.

The Department of Rehabilitation and Recreation on the other hand has responsibility for a special area of jurisdiction such as the homes for special care,as the minister outlined. As it has already been indicated, Mr. Speaker, it is the intention of this government to pay particular attention to an area which up to now ,as not had the special attention that it requires,namely, the home for retarded children, the home for the a~ed, the hoys'home, the girl~ home and so on.

There is no conflict in divldin~ the old department or setting up the two departments, as we see it, hecause,as I said,we looked at it very carefully. The staff of the Social Assistance Department,as it is now known,provide a services, Mr. Speaker, to various agencies, nlD!lerous agencies throughout this province, both federal, provincial and voluntary or~anizations,parole boards. Any number of aRencies outside of government use the services of the old Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation and the now new Department of Social Assistanve.

The reason I say there is no conflict is because whenever the honourah]e t!inlster of Rehabflitntion and Recreation requires the services of those offlcials,he or his officinls have only to make the requrst nnd Tam s11re they are treated equally as other a~encies are, as other departm~nts of r,overnment are. There ls no conflict there. There is no intention,as I understand it,and I am sure he will elaborate upon this point when he closes the debate, ~here 1~ no intention to build his 1628

March fl, 1973 Tape 520 PK - 4 own empire or to build another department as strong in numbers as the Department of Social Assistance. It is a step, Mr. Speaker, which has been lonR overdue 1 to give special attention to these areas with reRarde to aged, retarded children and the other agencies that come under the Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation. I cannot see how anybody can find any fault in the division as it now exists. If the division had been made whereby the staff were split and had a dual responsibility to two ministers or somethin~ of that sort, I could certainly see justifiable criticism.

But as it is divided right now ,it can only work in a very smooth, efficient manner,doing the job that this P,overnment once did for these special areas which come under the Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation. I for one have much pleasure in supporting the bill. MR. SPEAKER: If the minister speak now,he closes the debate. HON. J. G. ROUS SF.AU: (MINISTER OF RF.l!AJIILITATION AND RF.CREATION ) : Mr. Speaker, first of all I like my colleague who has had some experience in this field, I am sure that in supporting the bill he is going along with the principle that this department indeed can serve a purpose.

To the honourable members across the House,! think possibly a cause for concern might be the term "rehabilitation''. Now as I see •·rehabilitation'' .I think it is proper to say that indeed tbat many departments of government are involved in rehabilitation of one kind or another. My colleague(who is standing on the floor and sitting now)of Industrial Development,rehabilitates many industries. My colleague in Manpower and Industrial Relations rehabilitates. My colleague from the other half of the department,as it existed before, EY friend for St.

John 1s Centre,also serves a purpose in the rehabilitation process in the sense of rehabilitating those on social welfare. The aspect with which my department is concernPrl iq th• rehPb1litation of thP. physkally and mentally handicapp "ed. So that in effect I do not see an overlappinr, 1629

arc h R, 1973 Tape 520 PK - 5 I would assure the honourable membets on the other side of the House that all ministers on this side of the Fouse are on speaking terms with them11elveA and each other. Th~te 1" no :tntention,in my tnstance,.to build any emfl 1 r41 • ~N_. fdF.~BF.R: Tnaudi hle. MR. ROUS~F.AU: t did not hear the remark. AN HON. MF.MRF.R: Inaudible. -- ---- MR. ROJTSSF./\U: Well I will say,p;ive us twent ,y-three years, h,,t we a_re on speakini;t terms with ourselves and I am sure that no empire will be built. I think we all accept that if we build an empire.we may indeed be taken 1630

March 8, 1973 Tape no. 521 Page 1 - MRW from an empire that we may find ourselves in in some future date. I do not think that serves any useful purpose. This department, a lot of thought was given to it.

I think what we have done is take a number of. units out; the units of homes for special care, the homes for the senior citizens, the homes for the mentally retarded children, the institutional schools for the boys and girls and other Ruch units which had certain functions to perform and the rehabilitation process which we speak about in the Department of Rehabilitation and Recreation extends to these people in the sense of the physically and mentally handicapped, the rehabilitation of these people and not the rehabiliation of those on social welfare.

I can as~ure honourable members across the House that there will be no conflict between myself and my friend from St. John's Centre. As a matter of fact he has on many occasions offered me the use of his field staff which I certainly will be using. AN HON. MEMBER: He is very touchy these days. MR. ROUSSEAU: He is not touchy from this side of the House. I have no reason to believe that there will not be the same co-operation between two other ministers should,at some time in the future, they be there.

I am sure that the recognition that the two departments have to work hand in hand, as indeed many departments of government have to work hand in hand with the various ministers co-operating in a number of ways, giVe$me no cause for concern. I would hope that this department would serve the purpose for which it was instituted. I personally think it is a good department. I am certainly extremely pleased to be minister of this department. I have grown to become very fond of it. I would hope that I will be in this department for quite some time to come. I thlnk It hA!'I A TIMl 1oh to ,jq In thin provln,·<'.

I wo11.lil I Liu, to, In r11>111<' 1tmttl l wily, pltty .11 pttrl 111 Llic jol, thttl Llil" ilcpttrlmc,111 hn::i Lo ,lo. AN HON. HE ~BER: Educ a Lion is the minister's cup of tea. MR. ROUSSEAU: Education is not the minister's cup of tea. The minister 1631

March 8, 1973 Tape no. 521 Page 2 ie versatile in ao many jobs, you never know where the minister may end up. HP mAy even end up In th"' b,u:k hPnrh~R. I have pleasure, Mr. 8peaker, 1n moving second reading of this bill. On motion a bill, "An Act Respecting The Department Of Rehabilitation And Recreation," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently. Motion second reading of a bill, "An Act Respecting The Department Of Forestry And Agriculture." HON. E. MAYNARD (Minister of Agriculture and Forests): Mr. Speaker, I do not think I have any particular comments to make on thia.

It is a straightforward bill creatin~ a department. I would answer any questions, if at all possible, that the honourable members on the opposite side want to ask. On motion a bill, "An Act Resi)ecting The Department of Forestry And Agriculture, read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently. Motion second reading of a bill, ".(n Act Respecting The Department Of Rural Development." MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I d_o not believe the minister is here.

This is a bill to establish the Department of Rural Development in line with the rel'! true tu ring procedures of thf departments. which the Oi,poaition do not app~rently think is the greatest thing that has hit Ne~foundland in the past one hundred yearR,but with which we disagree. This is another one of the standard bills to set up a department of rural development. I move second reading. MR. W. N. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, ordinarily I would not say a word on this.

It is just another one of those things, one of those bills but since it is apparently the last one and it is such an historic occasion, a word should be said 1632

March 8, 1973 Tape no. 521 Page 3 I auppoae to reaffirm whnl we have already said hefore, that this, in our •atimatlon, 1~ th~ mo•t dreadful nnd acnndalous waste of time that was ever perpetrated in this honourable House. Even though the opposition have been very conciliatory on it, even though the opposition has said very little on these particular bills because they are all the same and there is not much meat or substance to them, even in spite of that, we have seen two or three days of this honourable House taken up going through them.

We still have more time to come yet which will be spent on them, as we go through committee stage and give these bills their third reading. Let us just say and repeat, Mr. Speaker, that we want to go on the record as saying that this is an indication of this present administration's sense of priority, to waste the time, the talent of their ministers, the talent and time of their officials - well I will not use the word talent so loosely - the time of this honourable House in bringing these bills in, Mr. Speaker.

Although we have not voted against them, we have voted for them, It makes no difference if you vote for or against them, they are so insignificant. We do think it is wasteful of time, talent and energy. MR, NEARY: Mr. Speaker, as this is the last one of the restructuring bills to be brought before the House, I would like to also say a few words, for the record, before this bill is •put through second reading. Once this bill is approved by the honourable House, Sir, then that officially places the government in the hands of the academics at Memorial University.

This is their brainwave, Sir, a complete waste of time. It has made nothing but a shambles out of the government and it will do nothing to put bread on people's tables today. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, it will make it more difficult for the people of this province to get to see their elected representative. The Premier has sufficiently insulated himself from the people. The ministers have sufficiently insulated ~hemselves from the people. Every day, Sir, there are numerous phone calls, letters and wires pouring into our office here, right outside here 1633

March 8, 1973 Tape no. 521 Page 4 in the opposition office, complaining, people complaining and municipalities, organizations complaining that they are unable to get to see their member or their elected representative or a minister. They call in on the phone, writing and coming in personally, Mr. Speaker. It is a shame, Sir, that we have reached the stage in Newfoundland where the people of this province cannot get to see their elected representative, to discuss a problem. Take a look at the eighth floor, Sir. I think I have said this before, every day is like Good Friday down on the eighth floor.

The carpet on the floor there, Sir, is good forever. One time, if you came into Confederation Building and you passed the eighth floor and the elevator doors happened to open, she was blocked. She was blocked, Sir. MR. EVANS: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: There were people from all over the province in to see the premier of this province. They p,ot to see him. AN HON • MF.Mn F.R : Visitinr, day, I presume. MR. NEARY: Very funny! Very funny, Mr. Speaker, that people of this province cannot get to see their elected representative. I am talking about ministers of the crown and backbenchers, some backbenchers. AN HON.

MEMBER: Name them. MR. NEARY: Yes I can, if I.want to. I am not going to stoop to naming people in this House, Sir. AN HON. MEMBER: (In:iudib le). MR. NEARY: If the hat fits the honourable member, he can wear it. Sir, thia is the last of the restructurin~ bills,officially putting the government in the hands of the academics over nt Memorial University. Now, Sir, what has happened?. We now have nineteen ministers. Once this bill is passed, Sir, nineteen ministers will be 11ble to draw their salary from the public treasury - nineteen. The honourable member 1534

March 8, 1973 Tape 522 PK - 1 for St. John's East who is over there now with a grin on his face, Sir, when he was on this aide of the House what did he say about the size of the cabinet? Ile could not stand it, Sir. How can he stand it now? Nineteen. We almost had twenty, Sir. We almost had twenty. What happened to the so-called Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs? Got shot down in flames. What is to become of that portfolio, Sir? Is there going to he another department created so that we can get the honourable member for St. John's South into the cabinet?

That will give them nineteen, two parliamentary ·assistances, twenty-one, a couple of bouncers down on the eighth floor, apart from nineteen ministers, Sir, that is twenty-one. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Yes, I can n81!1e them. Bouncers that is all they are, Sir 7 nothing but bouncers to keep the people away from the Premier. The Premier does not want to be bothered with the people now. This was the great Premier that was 80ing to take the government to the people. Take the government to the people, how are you! You cannot see him, anybody knows that.

What is going to happen to the honourable member for St. John's South?Is he going to get a portfolio or is he not, Sir? MR. SPEAKER ~ The honourable member for Bell Island is dealing with matters totally unrelated to the Department of Rural Development Act and s~pplies department to that particular department~kP. h~~ Ulffl~ered far afield and it is time for him to get back to the department that is being discussed. MR. NEARY: With all due respect, Sir, we are dealing with a bill that is restructuring the government.which gives members a pretty broad scope.

But, Sir, I do not want to prolong, I have said more than I intended to say on this bill anyway because the whole thing is a pure waste of time, Sir, A w11111te of the pnopl 11 monPy, it will do nothinp. for the people ot NMlfoundlnnd, ft will not put hn111d r,n their t11hle to,l4y, :r wtll only make ft more difficult tor the people to get to see their elected repre6entat1ve. 1635

March R, 1971 Tape 522 PK - 2 Sir, I would say that is a backward step, ~. SPEAKER: If the minister speak now,he cloaea the debate. MR. MARSHALi.: Mr. Speaker, the only thinp: that t can ay ta shame on the lack of enl1Rhtenm~nt and perception in the oppoftttion. Aa far as we are concerned, Mr. Speaker, this is the last bill of restructuring hut after hearing the honourahle gentlem~n on the other side maybe there is nel!!d for another one and that would be to abolish the opposition. Mr.

Speaker, the only thinR I can say in reply and I do not th1nk any reply to their statementR wnl'! intented, is to reiterate what I sairl yesterday, that l!!Verything has improved immeasurably within the past year in government very. very much, very greatly and everyone recognizes it. But the only problem is that each day goes by the quality of the opposition deteriorates and 1 am afraid that is the only thing that has not, Mr. Speaker, improved since the great change that was WJ;ought last year. So those few words, Mr. Speaker, I move second reading of this great,momentous bill.

On motion a Bill, "An Act Respecting The Department of Rural Development," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently: by leave. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Forest Fires Act." FION. F.. ~AYNARD (MINISTF:R OF AGRICUT.TURF. AND FORESTS): Mr. Speaker, this is not a very tremendous bill. It makes some minor adjustments in the act respecting forest fires and enlarges the reiulatory powers of the minister, under the Act. I do not know if there are any questions which they would like to be asked.

Sir, I move second readin~. and would answer any questions that the honourable memhers may have rer,ardinp: the bill. MR. P. S. TJTOHS: Mr. Speaker, this bill wot·ld .1m1t change some of the rep,u]atinn powers that the nf'w MJnlster of Forr.stry and Agriculture would have. It lays out Cf.'Tt1t1n prrm'!Rstnns for di ffe,rent rer.ulations pertainin~ 1636

March R, 1973 Tape 522 PK - 3 to our forestry in relation to extinguishers, fires and I would imaRine poasbily controlling fires within cabins in our forests also. Thia is all very well and I agree with this, I support this 1 There are a couple of points here, Mr. Speaker.

If the regulations that are to be drawn up are to control the loggers of our province, our sawmill operators and all other people in our forest who are usinR chain saws and if these regulations are to control the extinguishers that are needed or are to he on hand or used by these people,then one of the greatest deficiencies in our province is the accessibility of these extinguishers to our people. I would venture to say that outside of the cities of St. John's and Corner Brook you cannot today buy a fire extinguisher.

Now this is not the fault of any government, this is possibly the fault of the industeries or the retailers in our province. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. THOMS: You cannot buy them. You just simply cannot buy them. They are not accessible to our people. If you are planning an operation it takes a month .and maybe two months to even get a proper fire extinguisher. Now I am not thinking about a little small thing you have in your kitchen where you just push a little thing, I am thinking about approximately a twenty-five pound - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. TP.OMS: No they are not sufficient.

They are something not sufficient in the forests of Newfoundland. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. THO'MS: Well we have had too many forest fires already started by chain saws. The main reason why they started was because the extinguishers that were used at the time were not capable of extinguishin~ the fires that were started. Another point, Mr. SpeakerJ in this regulation I presume we are possibly goin~ to control or set up regulations for the control of say stoves or some kind of ent1np, apparatus in cahins. I would imagine the 1637

March 8, 1973 Tape 522 PK - 4 reRulations would control the spark resistors that would be either on the ptp~ or the chimney~, T would 1TMRine it vould mostly he pipe. Here again I do not helieve proper spark resistor screens are available to the puhlic of Newfoundland. Now this is not a serious thin~ or not as serious as the extinguisher thing is. But here again I think something should be done not necessarily by p,overnment hut by private enterprise to make sure that these necessities are easily accessible to our people. Now the activities within our forests in the past have been limited hut these activities will increase as time goes by because we have many more people taking

part in the outdoors and enjoying the forests of Newfoundland than we ever had before, I think that somewhere along the line these two vital necessities to enjoy the outdoors of Newfoundland particularly in the months from June to August.I think these two necessities should become more accessible to our people. With these two points brought forward. Mr. Speaker, we have no objection in supporting this bill. MR. W. N. ROWF.: Mr. Speaker, this is an uncontroversial bill, in most respects. I would submit, Sir. an exceedingly controversial bill in one · respect.

That is this tendency on the part of government, not only this government, we were guilty of it when we formed the administration as well, all government to rule by regulation rather than setting out particularly offences setting them out clearly, unmistakely in the principle act so that lawyers and other people concerned can have ready access to them. I refer particularly, !Ir. Speaker, to Clause (5) 1638

March 8 1 1973 Tape No.523 NH-1 Subclause 3 of this bill, "a person who violates any provision of regulations made under subsection (1) is guilty of an offence and liable on

summary conviction to imprisonment for a period of not less than two weeks and not exceeding two years or a fine of not less than $200 and not exceeding $10,000," Mr. Speaker. Now I do not know for sure, but I would submit that that penalty of $10,000 for the breach of a regulation, not the breach of

an act, a

section of

an act clearly set out and delineated in tmmistakeable terms, l-ut the breach of a regulation, that penalty must be among the highest if it is not the highest, among the highest penalties which can be imposed in this province. I would like to hear the honourable the House Leader on the point and perhaps the member for Placentia East if he cares to say a word about it. Because to me, Mr. Speaker, this is a tendency which should not be encouraged by the administration but should be stopped. Remember what regulations are.

An act is set out, Mr. Speaker, saying that certain things will be done, can be done or should be done and in certain cases, if there is a breach of some of these sections,then a penalty is tmposed. ~ut regulations, Mr. Speaker, are made by the government, by the cabinet,in secret session convened.and then they are sent down to the printer and they appear in "The Newfoundland Gazette." I would submit, Sir, that the type of publicity which is normally attendent on

an act going through this House, an important act, especially when it has important offences in it, the type of publicity which

an act ordinarily receives is not received by regulations which are printed and put in "The 1639

March 8, 1973 Tape No. 523 NM - 2 MR. WM. ROWE: Newfoundland Gazette." I am afraid, Sir, that we are likely to see many people who may be in violation of some of the offences named in the regulations ( we do not know what the offences are yet, named in the regulations)either deliberately or negligently but innocent of the law, not knowing what the particular law is, euddenly possibly finding themselves saddled with a fine of up to $10,000, Mr. Speaker, which is a very high penalty.

I am not saying that any of the offences which the minister might have in mind, respecting our forests, would not deserve a penalty of $10,000 and even imprisonment.

I am not saying that at all~ All I am saying is that if anybody is going to be found guilty of ,a breach of some rules of our society, then those rules should be set out unmistakeably in the principal act which is passed by this House, and these regulations should not or authority should not be given to the minister to make regulations in secret sessions convened, then getting very little publicity perhaps and then people breaching them in all innocence or ignorance of the law, even though it might be deliberate or negligent in terms of actually breaching the regulations the~selves.

It would be unthinkable for anybody to be convicted of a serious crime,for example under the Criminal Code,by reP,ulation. All the crimes are set out by the Government of Canada and the Parliament of Canada in the Criminal Code of Canada and lawyers have ready access to them. They are normally in effect for a long time and there is lots of publicity attendent on them and people know what is lawful and what is not lawful, by and large.

Rut to have this sort of a situation with a possible penalty of a $10,000 for what may in fact be a serious breach but a breach nevertheleRs of a rep,ulation of the minister, to me violates all the prJnrlples which this llou11e 11hould i;t:md for, Mr. Speaker. 16~0

March 8, 1973 Tape No.523 NM - 3 There is even this possibility: Under the law, every man and woman is deemed to know the law. Nobody can come into a court of law and say, "I am sorry Your Honour, I did not know what thJ law was, therefore I am not guilty." The judRe would say, "well you are preaumed to know the law." It ia not becauae everybody knows every scintilla of law there might be in existence but because if it were otherwise people would be able to slip out from under the law merely by pleading ignorance.

But there is happening in Great Britian these days a tendency on the part of courts to find that when somebody is in breach of a regulation by a government or an admini•trative body or a board, and this tendency is an ongoing thing, for some courts to . find that ignorance of the law in that case is a good excuse.

Sometimes they say that ifs minister or a government or an administrative body which makes regu\ations, has not made certain that the person accused of a breach of those regulations did have this regulations brought directly to his attention before­ hand or to the group of persons like him who would maybe be coming up against this law, that that person has a good• defence by saying that he was ignorant of that·particular regulation.

Because the courts have seen in Britian, and I am not saying that this is a tendency which is firmly entrenched, it is just a general tendency in administrative law, the courts have said to themselves that it is all very well and good for a person to be considered to have knowledge of the law, when the law is set out clearly and unmistakeably in criminal codes or in acts in the statute books but in order to stretch that presumption of knowledr,e of the law to regulations made by a minister or a government or an administrative tribunal and can consider that every person in society is supposed to know that law, that is stretching the principle a little too thinly, these judges are saying, and therefore ignorance of the law in that case may be a good excuse. 16~1

March 8, 1973 Tape No. 523 NM - 4 So all I am saying, Mr. Speaker, is that two things are involved - first, as a matter of principle this House sh9uld not allow crimes and this is a crime even though ~e do not have jurisdiction to make crimes, we will call it a quasi-crime or a provincial offence, we shouli not allow the government to make new crimes by regulation unless they are fully dehated in this House. "Ihnt is the first point, especially when the crimes carry A penalty of ~10,000,which is a very lnrp,e penalty indeed.

The second point, Sir, is that the minister or the ~overnment may well be defeating their own purposes by not comin~ out with these offences and passing them into law by virtue of a bill.

It may be defeating their own purposes because if this tendency is carried too far, we are going to find more and more courts across Canada and in case of juries,for example if jury trials are arver allowed in such cases, we are going to find more and more courts and juries across Canada actually acquitting people who have been in breach of regulations simply because these regulations were not adequately broup,ht to their attention.

They will not be con11idered to have knowledge of the law as is normally the case, the people prosecuting them will have to prove that ~hese peopie did in fact hRve knowledr,e of this regulation or that the minister and p,overnment or administrative tribunal took every conceivable step possible to bring these regulations to their attention. So I am in favour of this bill, ~r. Speaker, on principle.

I am against this type of thini, where crimes are made by this House, not hy settinp.; them out on parer and dehatinr: them but hy allowing the minister an~ his collenRues,in secret ~ession,to r.omf' up with thesC' 1;o cn.lled crlmes and thl'n mP.rcly have them f'.n7.1•tt<'d, nnd prnpl<' m:1y not know wh11t th!! law,1 nre, whnt the r<>r,11lntlnn!I nr<', .,nd may flnd thPmselve!I ln lnnnc:<>nt br('nch of thc-m. I :im not Hayinr, that there Rhould not he very serious p<>nal tl.C!s 16~2

Mm-ch 8, 1973 Tape No. 523 NM - 5 MR. ID!. ROWF.: for very serious offences concerning forest fires .and the manap,ement of our forests and carelessness and deliberate acts, I am not sayinR that at all. All I am sayinR is that these offences should be set out clearly in legislation before this HOuse, we should have an opportunity to debate these offences and all attendent publicity which is normally attendent on this House of Assembly and bills and acts that go through it, that publicity should he broup,ht to bear on these types of offences. I would like to hear the minister's comments on it.

I would like to hear any other member lef,lally .trained or other­ wise to have comments on it. I feel strongly about it. I think that offences should be given all due publicity so that people know about them. I would like to hear other members of the llouiqe Bpeak to it, Mr. Speaker, because I think it is a very pernicious ~rinciple which we will be adopting today if we go along with this. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, just a few words in response to what .the honourable member for White Bay South said, First of all his :observations are well taken,to a certain degree,because we should :a:t &l times,! think, strive to avoid the situation where regulations, IWhl!re laws,any law be they in the ~ature of quasi-criminal laws or IWhBt have you are made by the cabinet, by the executive arm of ~ment but should principally be made by the legislature itself.

Me have and we are tryin~ to change and turn around to a large extent the tendency which is prevalent in pretty well all western democracies,to delegate more and more power to the executive itself, However, this does not mean that every function of the ~xecutlv~ ~hould h~ tnknn 16~3

March 8, 1973 Tape 524 JM - 1 away and ~iven to the legislature itself .• The executive arm of government has a very real purpose and real function for exiating. With respect to this particular bill and the observations as I say of the hon. member for 'White Bay South.while they are well taken,when .you apply them to general application in this specific inatance,there is probably a very, very good and real reason for the purpose of having the regulations the way they are.

First of all the sanction of a fine of imprisonment for not less than two weeks and not exceeding two years or a fine of $200.00 not exceeding $10,000 are admittedly very high penalties to be imposed.

It is also to be pointed out that the regulations which the hon. the minister can make in conjunction with the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council,the type of regulations he is to make are not to be regulations that are made in a vacuum in other words he cannot for the sake of emphasis,by pointing to a ridiculous situation,just cannot say that because a person crosses a road on a hot summera day that he will be fined or imprisoned.

The fact of the matter is that he has power to make regulations with respect to the items that are specifically set forth in the act itself and which pertain to one of the most urgent matters with which this province has to deal with, which the goyernment qas to deal with in the province during the sU1DtDer months and that is the danger of forest fires which have in the past robbed our children and our children's children of one of their greatest natural resources.

For instance the minister has power and can only make regulations in one case for prohibiting the lir,hting of fires outdoors during any period specified in the regulations, for specifing conditions under which people operate in the woods, loggers operate in the woods, for prohibiting at certain times the use of power saws in the woods, for restricting the passage through forests. Now obviously you cannot make specific regulations to apply to every instance for every year because 16~4

March 8, 1973 Tape 524 JM - 2 the requirements vary from time to time and from year to y .. r and season to season and certainly from year to year as to when the urgency is greatest. The minister only has power as I say and has to have the necessary flexibility to make the regulations in order to protect the province to the upmost degree and he has only power to make regulations with respect to the items that are specifically set forth in the act itself.

Furthermore the people, generally speaking, who are affected by these regulations should well know that regulations and laws of this type are in existence and be they professional loggers or just transients in the woods themselves they owe a duty certainly to the rest of the people in the province to acquaint themselves with the regulations which pertain from time to time.

For example, it is not going to do the wealth of this country any good for somebody to be able to turn around and say afterwards that I did not know I was not supposed to be in such an area after the place is burnt down- Obviously we cannot make rules and regulations in the act now to say that John Jones or John Smith will not be allowed in the woods from the period of June 1 to the end of September in each year.because this will vary from season to season. As I say, Mr.

Speaker, in .my opinion the observations of the member for White Bay South are very well taken when they apply to general application but when it applies to this particular act.when you consider the danger to the province by careless users of the forests and when you consider the fact that the requirements vary from year to year and when you further consider the fact that with great painstaking precision and after a great deal of thought the hon. the minister and hi• officials have defined the instances where regulations may be made, and they may not make rRulatlon• unla•• thay come within thclr authority under this act, I can see really no other alternative than to provide it and it is very necessary and benificial in this specific instance. 1645

Karch 8, 1973 Tape 524 JM - 3 MR. SPEAKER: If the hon. minister speak now he closes the debate. MR. MAYNARD: Mr.Speaker, just a conment. First of all I am not familiar with the shortage of fire extinguishers in the province or other fire protection devices. It is certainly something which I will have investigated as it was my understanding that these were available from various locations. However, that I think is a problem that can be solved certainly. In relation to the comments of the hon, member for White Bay South regarding regulations, I find that it would be very difficult to actually pinpoint all the offences in

an act because

an act is something that you cannot change to suit the situation every day or every week or whatever and to anticipate all the violations of a certain law or all the things that could be classed as a violation at this particular time would be probably almost impossible, Therefore I think it is only possible to put very general terms in the act and create the specifics by regulations. There are some problems to it and there are some arguments to be made against it but in general it is the way that we have to operate.

I think the moat important thing here is the fact that we should possibly make the public more aware of the regulations, rules and laws that we have in effect. Hy hon. colleague stated that the public has the responsibility to make themselves aware but I think we should have more public information in this regard and I fully intend to do that especially in the case of forest fires,~ecause it is a very serious situation.

The fines that were mentioned by the hon, member for White Bay South,no doubt they are large and very harsh disciplinary measures but I think we are dealing with a very important aspect of the economy of the province and the disciplinary measures to be taken against offenders would have to be suited to the particular things, I therefore move second reading. 16'16

March 8, 1973 Tape 524 JM - 4 On motion, a bill "An Act To Amend The Forest Fires Act," read a second time, ordered referred to a committee of the whole House,presently. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Expropriation Ace:." MR. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, in moving this act the amendment is a very simple and straightforward one which is fully explained in the accompanying explanatory note to the act.

The purpose of this amendment is simply to require the publication or furnishing to interested persons of a plan of the land concerned when notice of expropriation of the land is published under the provisions of the act. It is straightforward insofar aa the plan must be published or provided to interested persons. 1 move the second reading of this act. MR. ROWE(W.N.): For our part, Mr. Speaker, we think this is a excellent bill.

Anything that can be of interest to people who are having land expropriated from under them or who have some claim to land certainly should have as much documentation and plans and this sort of thing available to them for their own study. We commend the minister for bringing this amendment into the House and we fully support it. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Expropriation Act," read a second time, ordered referred to a committee of the whole House, presently. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act Further To .Amend The Newfoundland Medical Care Insurance Act." DR. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker. the intent of this bill is to just regularize payments to people who employ doctors such as corporations such as the International Grenfell Association, the Twillingate Hospital Board and various other non-government and government hospitals who employ doctors on their staff. Essentially under the previous act the monies had to be paid direct to the physician himself and this amends the act to the effect that the monies can be paid to the body or corporation hiring the doctor and they will then relay the fee to the doctor. It is an amendment to that effect. 16 ,1 7

March R, 1973 Tai,e 525 IB-1 On motion II b1.11, "An Act Further To Amend Th• Newfoundland Medical Care Insurance Act,"read 4 second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently. Motion second reading of a bill, "An Act To Clarify The Manner In Which The Provisions Of The Statutes Amendment Act, 1971 And The Statutes Amendment Act, 1')72 Are To Be Implemented." HON. T. ALEXANDER HICKMAN: (MINISTER OF JUSTICE): Mr. Speaker, thiR is a very simple, straightforward bill. The explanatory note Rays that the reasons for the content of the bill are set forth in the re.citals appearing therein.

Any careful reading of the recitals should serve to confuse all honourahle members but what the bill is designed to do and will do,if this honourable House sees to fit to pass it,is to correct certain defects and to validate the revision of the Statutes of New­ foundland,which revision was completed this year after ten years of very strenuous and tedious work,with very efficient work by a committee under the chairmanship of Mr. E. J. Phelan Q.C. of the bill.

I move second reading On motion a bill, "An Act To Clarify The '1-fanner In Which The Provisions Of The Statutes Amendment Act, 1971 And The Statutes Amendment Act, 1972 Are To Be Implemen..ted," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently. Motion second reading of a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Co-operative Societies Act." HON. WILLIAN W. MARSHALL: (MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO): Mr.

Speaker, in the abRence of the honourable the minister this is a bill which is a relcvnntly routine bill which would amend the original Co-operative Societf~R Act and requires, with respect to the m~mberahip of perRonR under the nr.~ of mn1orltv,which fR under thP. nr,P of n1netpen, that there are certain proviRionR hPre nreventing the exercise of voting privileges in the society, in the co-operative society, if in fact a person is under the age of sixteen. One has the rl8ht to vote hetween the ages sixteen to nineteen. It is a beneficial act that is necessary really in order to 16,18

March 8, 1973 Tare 525 IB-2 further encour11R• the co-operatlve movement in this province and I have plea~ure in movinR econd reAdlnp,. On motion • ht 11, "An Ar.t Furth•r To Amend The Co-operative Societie11 Act, "read a 11econd tim•, ordered referred to a Colll!llittee of the Whole House presently. ~otion second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Northern Labrador (Social Services And Rehabilitation) Act." On motion second .reading of bill adjourned. f Motion second reading of a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Newfoundland Municipal Financing Corporation Act." MR.

MARSHALL: Again it is in the nature of a routine act which would really change the year end when the Municipal Finance Corporation is required. This is the bill of the honourable Minister of Finance who is not here right now. It would change the year end to March 31th, have the effect of makin~ it March 31st to comply with the provincial year. I move second reading. On motion a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Newfoundland Municipal Financing Corporation Act, 11 read a second time, ordered ~­ referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently. MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr.

Speaker, I a~ologize to honourable members of the House. I understood my bill would be called later. I was out attending to a matter and it in no way suggests that I have belittled the House. If it be 1in any way, I am sorry for it. This bill, "An Act To Amend The Northern Labrador Social Services and Rehahf.lf tat ion Act, 11 b esPJentially a consolidat:fon bil~.

The Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation had within it a unit called The Northern Labrador Services Division which,hy federal agreement signed some years ago,the federRl government pays ninety percent of the cost of maintenance of operation and current expenditures of , the Indian and Eskimo settlements from North West River north to Cape Chidley. The payments are such that the government, the provfncial government is responsible for the first one third of any current or capital expenditures and the federal ~ovemment then shores in the final two thirds to ninetv 16L19

1'farch 8, 1973 Tape 525 IB-3 percent to a maximun of $1,000,000 so that the Northern Labrador de11,irtmant. In nddftfnn hy 11omtt quirk of fate the Lahrndor entitle11 in government ended up tn my department in the restructuring of government and we also have under our sphere now the Department of Labrador Affairs as it existed previously. The programmes that were the responf!ihility of that department have now been also included J within the realm of my department.

So, rather than have two different divisions functioning, the Division of Northern Labrador Services and the Department of Labrador Affairs, we have decided that we would like to have it drawn together into one division which we call now the Division of Labrador Services. The 1927 Privy Cotmcil decision defined Labrador as Coastal Labrador and all the islands thereto.

This amendment ia necessary in that now we will make the term Labrador to include all of J.ahrador 110 nl 1 the service11 that are pecul tar to Labrador, within . the aph~re of p,overnment,will now he Administered · through the Division of Labrador Services which will he in the Rehabilitation half of the Department of Rehabilitation and Recreation. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support this bill because this is a concept that I developed when I was Minister of Social Services and Rehabilitation when the Northern Labrador Services came under that department. I did, Sir. It is in the files.

The honourable minister can ~o and check the files. It is in the files. He can laur,h at it if he wants to but it is there. What Thad planned on doinr,, Sir, was to extend the branch of thr. Northern Lnhrador Servicef! to include Southern T,ah rndor. I do not know if it t~ ne~eAsary to v,o RR fRr as the honourahle minister has p:one 1md include 1111 of T.11hr11dor becnuf!e thnt tnkes Jn T,,ihrador WeRt too. I am sure th11t 1n the affluent d1strkt of Labr11dor West they do not need the services of the Northern J.Rhrador Services Division. I beg your pardon? The alleged affluence? Well, Sir, I think the 1650

March 8, 1973 Tape 525 IB-4 statistics could probably prove otherwise. I think most people in Labrador would rather live in Labrador West than live in Black Tickle as the honourable Leader of the Opposition has pointed out. Talking about Black Tickle, Sir, this was the whole purpose .. of extending the branch of the Northern Labrador Services Division, to carry out a pilot .pro1ect in Black Tickle.

Black;Tickle,as honourable members of this House may or may not know, is a cotm1un-ity in Southern Labrador that is probably or at least in my opinion - the honourable member for Labrador South can probably confirm or deny this - : is probably an example of bow a co11111unity in Newfoundland has been neglected 111 this province since Confederation. The honourable member nods his head in approval because that is a true statement, Sir. Not only that, Mr, Speaker, I would say that 1651

March 8, 1973 Tape no. 526 Pagel - MRW If there are a people in Newfoundland who have been neglected since Confederation, they are in Southern Labrador. If anybody is discriminated against in this province, Mr. Speaker, it ia not the Indiana and Eskimos of Northern Labrador, it is the people of Southern Labrador. The honourable minister agrees with me and the hon. member for Labrador South agrees with me. I will tell you why, Mr. Speaker.

The Government of Canada, under a special agreement with the Province of Newfoundland, provide ninety per cent of the cost of providing services to six communities, I think, in Northern Labrador. I am not sure if it is six or seven. I will count them: Northweat River, Postville, David's Inlet, Hakkovik, Hopedale and Nain. Did I leave one out? AN HON. MEMBER: No. MR. NEARY: No·, I did not leave one out. AN HON. MEMBER: Rigolet. MR. NEARY: We took Rigolet in about three years ago, Sir. Rigolet was not included because it is in the District of Labrador South.

The ironical part about it, Sir, is that Rigolet is in Labrador North, geographically. Electorally, it is in the District of Labrador South. AN HON. MEMBER: Gerrymandering! _MR. NEARY: Gerrymandering, call ·it what you like. That is the way it is. So, Mr. Speaker, here was Rigolet sticking out there like a ore thumb. All the co111111unities around were getting the service  of NLSD, paid for by the Government of Canada. They were not getting any housing. They were not getting any power generated by the Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation.

They were not getting any warehouses, buildings or stores provided by the Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation,so we took in Rigolet. Since then a number of houses have been built in Rigolet. Warehouses have been built. Fishermen have been helped. Although the standards are 1652

March 8, 1973 Tape no. 526 Page 2 not the beat, Sir, Rigolet is gradually getting there, catching up with aome of the other communities. The other c0111111UDitiea have had a head start, right from N•in right on down to Northwest ltiver. Nov, Sir, I claim that the people in Labrador South have been diacriminatecl against. They do not get aaaiatance from the Government of Canada. They cannot prove Indian or Eskimo blood. MR. WINSOR: There 1a. MR. NEARY: M my honourable colleague here, who knows Labrador so well, points out, Sir, there 1a EskilllQ blood in Labrador South. It 1a a job to prove it.

So these people did not get the same privilege that the people of Labrador North received under this special arrangement with the Government of Canada. I would say that they were discriminated against. What I wanted to do, Mr, Speaker, vu to take in the whole of Labrador South and carry out a pilot project in Black Tickle, build houses, create a fiah plant there, if it were fe-ible, a bait aupply unit - MR. WINSOR: A bait depot. MR. NEARY: A bait depot and build house , if necessary build a warehouse, put oil atorage tanks in there and try to tum Black Tickle into a viable community.

They do have ace•••• Sir, to some pretty rich fishing grounds. But I vaa flung out, Mr. Speaker, belore I had a chance to carry out that project which vu oiae of the dre&Jll8 that I had fot: that department. Now the hon. Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation is going to do it. I am glad he is going to do it, Sir, because it is badly needed. The only difficulty the honourable miniate1: is going to have, Sit:, is arranging with the Govemment of Canada to get the finances to do the same work, to provide the &Ille aervicea in Southern Labrador as we are providing in Northern Labrador to the Indiana and Eskimos.

I do not know if the honourable miniater bu approached Ottawa yet. I did make some preliminary approaches to Ottawa when I was minister of that department, Sir. 1 did not get a very good reaponae up to the time I left. It ia badly needed. I personally think that the only 1653

March 8, 1973 Tape ao.~26 Paa• ) vay Southern Labrador can be developed is for the government to take the bull by the horns, go in there, pour the money in there, build fish plants, put in bait depots, fish collection units, develop the tourist industry, .. open up the roads, build schools, generate electrifity. ,,The only way it can be don~, Sir, is for the government to pour masive uma of money in there.

When the Royal Commission on Labrador write their report, Sir, if they ever do ( If they ever top travelling around the world long enough to sit down and write a report) then you will diacover, Sir, that this is what they will recommend. People there have been neglected long enough. In Northern Labrador, Sir, one of the things that I was able to do when I was minister of that department, something that I am quite proud of (The hon. member for Labrador South may not be aware of this) waa to take on my staff a very good friend of his, as a matter of fact, Hr. Ian Strachan, as a consultant.

Ian Strachan vaa the gentleman who developed the Aretic char when he was on the staff of the College of Fisheries. MR. WINSOR: The curing of the Arctic char, . . MR. NEARY: The curing of the Arctic char, Sir, which is in such great demand all across North America. Mr, Strachan went out in business for himself and I took him on the staff as a consultant, sent him into Hain to look at the possibility of establishing a fish plant in Nain. Well Mr. Strachan was worth his weight in gold, Sir. I think we only paid him $4,000 or $5,000 but we did manage to establish a fish plant in Nain, Mr.

Speaker, It did not get burnt in the fire, although it was very near the 8tore that was burned in Nain. I do not think it was damaged. The first year that we had that fish plant in operation, Mr. Speaker, there was no unemployment in Nain - no unemployment. Even the women were 1654

March 8, 1973 Tape no. 526 Page 4 working, Mr. Speaker, and they were working for equal wages, equal pay for equal work. They vere getting paid the same as the men in Nain. They got in enough time to get their unemployment insurance stamps and they got their unemployment insurance during the winter. During the winter, we carried out a number of other projects and a lot of them went to work on other projects. That was a lot better than welfare, Kr. Speaker, a lot better than welfare. Nain, that year (I do not know what happened last year.

Perhaps the honourable minister can tell us when he is winding up this debate) little Nain, way up there in Northern Labrador, a little community that people had not even heard tell of, was one of the most prosperous little coDDD.unities in Newfoundland. They tripled their salmon production, Sir, and the production of Arctic char.

That is what the previous administration did for Nain - that old whipping boy, the previous administration, turned Nain into a viable coDDD.unity, Sir, made it one of the most prosperous communities in Newfoundland, not only in Northern Labrador - the shining light of Northern Labrador, Sir. I do not know what happened last year, Sir. Perhaps the honourable minister can tell us when he is winding up this debate how the plant made out last year. Did they increase their production? .Was their full employment in Nain? If not, why not? We certainly laid the foundation. What I had intended to do, Mr.

Speaker, was to take Mr. Stra~han back on as a consultant, the following year and send him into Makkovik and duplicate maybe on a smaller scale what we had done in Nain in Makkovik. I was flun~ out before I got a chance to do it, Sir. If we had been able to establish a fish p,lant in Makkovik and one in Nain, a big one in Nain, then the people on either side would be able to feed their fish , salmon, Arctic char and trout into these two fish plants. Then we had built a number of handicraft centres in these communities, Sir. We were building log cabins to develop the tourist industry. 1655

March 8, 1973 Tape no. 5l6 Page 5 We var• doing all aorta of things, Mr. Speaker, to create employment, to make work for the people of Northam Labrador. We were building hoau, Sir, putting in W'ater and eewerage. I remember the great battle that I had to try to get a front-end loader, a baclt-ditchet for Northern Labrador. What a battle I had with the Treasury Board aver that, Sir - a ~ittle old back-ditcher - because the majority of members of -the Treasury Bo•rd did not know what it waa all about. 'lhey did not know there were not any roads• ey water and sewerage in Northern Labrador. 1656

March 8, 1973 Tape 527 PK - 1 all I wanted to do was Reta hack ditcher to send in th .. re so that during the summer months down there,and my colleaRue here who repre~ented that district at the time worked with me, hounded me, kept the pressure on me night and day to get this. Finally I got approval to send a back ditcher, a front end loader into Northern Labrador so we could put in a few water lines down there and build a few roads.

Then there was the matter of storage tanks, I do not know if honourable members are aware of it or not but I got the shock of my life the first time I stepped ashore in these Northern Labrador communities when I saw all the gasoline and all the stove oil and furnace oil in barrels on the wharf and tourists going ashore down there, Sir, flicking matches and cigarette butts all over the place and there were the gasoline barrels around.

I said to my colleague who is now representinR the District of Fogo,"What can we do about this?" He said: "Put storage tanks down there." ''Well1 I said, "is this possible?'' Ile said, "yes, you should put storage tanks there." I said, "All right, well Jet us see what we can do." Then I discovered if we put the storage tanks there, there is no tanker to fill up the tanks. I even went as far, Mr. Speaker, as to call tenders in the newspaper and I asked all the big oil companies if they would tender on suppying oil and gasoline to Northern Labrador.

Not one, not one of these great oi,l companies was prepared to put up storage tanks and to get a tanker to fill up the tanks a couple of times a year. Now I am happy to say, Mr. Speaker, there is another one of my ideas being implemented because my colleague the honourable member for Labrador North has bought an 011 tanker and I would say,God Bless him,and the people of Northern and Sout.hern Labrador and the South Coast of this Island, Sir, will bless him, the people who do not have enough oil in the wintertine to keep their stoves goinR, to keep the house warm.

Most members of this honourable House who are well-to-do lawyers and millionaires in St. John's do not underetnnd all of this, Hr. Speaker, I understand it. I p:rew up in a house where you had to wait until the Hre was lit in the 1657

Tap@ ",'}_] Pl< - 2 mnrnln~ "" th~ pnn nf w11ter could thftw out a,1 you could pet enough water to w11 .. h. Tl,nt IR wh11t i!'I happ<'nfnp; 1n J.11hn1rfor tod11y, Sir, not only 1 n l.nh rndor 1 t I io h11pprn 1.np: 1.n n p:ooci m11ny p hc•11 1n thi11 i"l11nd. T would 1iny my honour ah le co llear,ue hal'I Bhown a lot of for@sight in buying that tanker. He does not know the good that he is going to do for t~e people of this province though he may make a few dollars from it. More power to him I would say.

But one storage tanker, Sir, established ir all these smaller communities, in the isolated areas, in the isolated parts of Newfoundland,then the roads can get clogged up with snow or the ice can come in at least people will have enough stove and furance oil to keep them warm. The people of Northern and Southern Labrador will have enough gasoline to keep their skidoos going so that they can get into the woods and RO they can do a little hunting which is so necessary to provide them with some food. So, Mr. Speaker, I would say that this is a good move. It is a good move.

If the Government of Canada is not prepared to co-operate with the honourable minister or his government then I would say the province should pour the money into Southern Labrador. That experiment, that pilot project that I had planned for Black Tickle should go ahead. Has anybody ever seen•the houses in Black Tickle? My honourable friend from Labrador South have seen them. I have seen them.I have been in them, It would almost make you ashamed that you are a Newfoundlander.

I strongly urp,e the honourable minister if he gets hoy,ged down with lonp drawn out ner,otiation~ with the Government of Canada,that he u!'le some of the $24 m111:lon that ntt:iwa .111Rt p:t!'lscci over to this p;overnmcnt. hnnded over to him, w1.ndfal 1, mie some of that money to develop Southern I.Ahrador, never mind waitinr, for the royal commiRsion to mnke its report. There is enour,h information available on Southern Lahrador, riever mind waitinp, for them. By the time they r,et hack from Norway and Iceland and half way around the world. Sir, it is too late.The people down there need the help now.

They need water and sewerar,e systems. They need roads. They need industry. They need housing. They need it now. Do not wait for Mr. Snowdon to run up a hill of a half or three quart~rs of a million and a 1658

March 8, 1973 Tape 527 PK - 3 couple or three years to do it. This S1Dllffler something should be done in Southern Labrador.. If the Government of Canada are not prepared to co-operate because there are no Indians or Eskimos there,then I would say then this government should go ahead on its own, go ahead on its own, Sir. Therefore, f'"r. Speaker. t have no hesitation at all in supporting this bill. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Labrador South. MR. MARTIN· Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I view this bill with mixed reactions I am afraid.

I have great pleasure in being able to stand here today and say a few things that I have been trying to get a captive audience to say it to for many years. There are not many times when I am in complete agreement with my colleague, the honourable member for Bell Island, but I must say that the words he have spoken this afternoon I agree with completely. There is no doubt about it that the division of that department as it has operated in the past has been discrimination,or discriminating against that other

section of Labrador. We have bent over backwards trying to do things for the native populations the easily identifiable natjve populations jn Northern Labrador, the Indians and the Eskimos, and we have·felt that we were doing a great deed for humanity,! think. But sooner or later somewhere,someone is going to have to decide who is an Indian and who is an Eskimo and who is not. AN HON. MEMBER: Who is a human being? MR. MARTIN: Absolutely, Sir. If that is the case then are you going to stop at the Straits of Belle? Are you going to then come on north and extent the services of this division on down through?

Because until you do 1 I am afraid you are still practicing discrimination. It has been all very well to say that we can give water and sewerage and storage depots and all the rest to the Indians and F.skimos of Labrador 1659

March 8. 1973 Tape 527 PI< - 4 if you pinpoint those two or three different communities on the Northern Coast. But there is hardly a family, Sir, in Coastal Labrador which does not have Indian or Eskimo blood mixed with white blood of the European founders who came over, As for my par~ I can boost that I have all three. So in this respect I applaud this bill. I think it is a move in the right direction.

But I would caution you, Sir, that while the concept is a good one it has some inherent danRers in that you are passing over to bureaucrats in government the responsibility of running the lives, every aspect of the lives of the people in those communities. 'lhile I am certain that civil servants char~ed with the responsibility of running these various services are doing so in good faith and with all good intentions,~ecauee they are bureaucrats and they are tied down to red tape there are very great dangers that things p,o astray. My honourable friend for Bell Island referred to the char fishery.

I can say, Sir, that Mr. Ian Strachan did a col!Ullendahle job in putting that plan in and making it work. I can also say that Mr. Ian Strachan was a victim of a witch hunt of civil servants who wanted h:f.m out for their o,;,m reasons. Thnt is n p,rent shame on this p,overnment. Let me tl"ll you n few thinr,R thnt happened with that char after it came out of there. Refore that plant was put in, for honourahle members who do not understand the char fiRhery 1 there arc three different p,radee it has to do with the colour of the flesh of the char.

Since there was no easy market for the pale char, the white char, when these were hour.ht in to the government depots they were dumped and the hottom of the harbour at Na:ln at times was white with these fish and the lose was stood hy the fiRhermen not hy the r,overnment. Aftpr the plnnt wns put in a very, very hfp,h riuality of product was turned out nncl put on thr. mnrkrt. Lnhrndor proc1ucr,r; 1n excesR, far in excess, I do not hnve thr. exact fip,ures of all of the other production across r.anada of Artie Chnr and there is a very, very r,oocl mnrket. Thnt ch,u was sent down here to be marketed out of St.

John's. It lay on thr. c1ock on the 1660

March 8, 1973 Tape 527 PK - 5 Southside for a number of months. There was a question of jurisdiction of who had to market it. It was passed over by the Division of Labrador Services to the Canadian Salt Fish eo·rporation who looked around and found that it was not under their jUTisdiction eit.her and they passed it over to another aRency, I am not sure the name of it, somethinp; called the Fresh Water Fish Marketing 1661

Ma,rch 8, 1973 Tap• .528 JH - 1 Corpor11t lon or 11om11thlna r o thAt "'rr"'rt. At qny n1t11 11 "'"" th11 11i11nry who vaa charged with the rauponulbility ot marketinR the produce from the fresh-water fisheries. They looked it over and decided at length, some ,great length that they could not operate east of Quebec so it was passed back to the Canadian Salt Fish Corporation. Meanwhile this char, a highly perishable product,was lying in the heat, in the shade but in the heat in a warehouse in St.

John's and not one official of the department had the time or perhaps was instructed to go over and turn those boxes over. The result was that when they were finally put on the market they were found to be of very, very inferior quality and that was then blamed on Mr. Strachan who was subsequently ousted from his government post. AN HON. MEMBER: What year was that? MR. MARTIN: This was three years ago. This is an indication of the kind of thing that can happen when bureaucracy becomes misguided. The people of Black Tickle do indeed have a lot going for them.

They are situated right on the very most prolific inshore fishing ground in this province and they have had for all their lives to live in hovels not because they wanted to but because they have had no choice. I think that it is a commendable idea that a goverI1111ent agency get into the development of these communities.

But I wonder what is going to happen when government takes over the whole responsibility of providing community services because what we have found happen in the North is that when that responsibility has been taken over by somebody paid out of the public purse,that the remainder of the community, the people whose leadership we should be trying to develop give the whole thing over to the official agent and there is a subsequent loss of initiative. I think, Sir, that govermnent has very little to do with this.

It is the whole system of burcaucrstcy over which we have no control, I am not even rcferrinr, to any specific people ln the civil service it is 1662

March 8, 1973 Tape 528 JM - 2 just the system that we are up against and I do not think that it is going to work. If it is going to work it has to work under very, very strict scrutiny and control. I do not want to take up any more of the time of this hon. HoUBe this afternoon developing my theories on this subject as I would like to reserve my time on that for when we go into the committee stage. I would just like to say, Hr.

Speaker, that the hon. minister should be aware of these danger  inherent in this kind of a concept through development and I think that if he proceeds cautiously that it can be a very great success. MR. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, I do not want to occupy too much time of the House to belabour this subject but having represen~ed the District of Labrador North for fifteen years I know a little of the background of the Northern Labrador Services. If we were to go back to the beginning - the beginning was with the Moravian Hiaaion  who came over and established in Northern Labrador away back in 1752.

They operated a trading operations and supplied the northern settlement with provisions and bought their furs, mostly fura,as there was not too much fish at that time. However, they in turn found that it was not financially sound for them and during the First World War it was very difficult for the Moravian Missions to get funds out of Germany because that is where the Moravian Missions originated, originated in Germany and not in England as a lot of people think. So then the operation was passed over to the Hudson Bay Company.

The Hudson Bay Company operated a service on a barter system, using their own ships and the last one they used was quite familiar to the people around St. John's at that time, the old "Harmony" who used to bring supplies from England and take them up along the coast and discharge them, collect their fur  and fish and what have you and take it to the West Indies and bring back molasses etc., not too much 1663

Much 8, 1973 Tape 528 JM - 3 rum as the Moravian Missions did not deal in rum, however they used to bring back molasses and supplies and distribute it along the coast and then at the end of the season bring back the catch of cod fish or salmon or what have you to St.

John's and very often, I can remember in my days when there was always a load of fish to be bid on or auctioned from the Moravian Mission ship "Harmony." However in 1942 the Hudson Bay Company,they saw that they could not make ends meet and they were going fast into bankruptcy so they just notified the government of the day,and the government of that day was the comnission of government, they notified the government of that day that they no longer could supply the settlements of Northern Labrador.

The Comnission of Government had no choice in the matter whether they wanted to or not they were forced to take over the operations of the Northern Labrador Services. So the Commission of Government were not too anxious and they felt around and they inquired and asked for tenders but no business operation in Newfoundland was interested enough only on one condition and that was if the government would subsidize the operation. Then, of course, you had firms such as Bowerings, such as Baine Johnston and one or two others who might be attracted to going in there and carry~ng out the operation.

So it was in 1942 the Commission of Government established, under the Department of Natural Resources, if my memory serves me correct, and provided to take over the operations of Northern Labrador. At that time they took over the Hudson Bay depot at Makkovik, Postville, Hopedale, Davis Inlet, Hain and at that time it was Nutak and Hebron, Nutak and Hebron, of course Hebron being the further and most northern aettlement of all, about 200 miles north of Nain.

So the government found themselves operating all of that stretch of coaat from Makkovik all the way down to Hebron and summertime during the chnr fishery beyond that up as far as Nakavik and Nakavik is about 180 miles this side of 1664

March 8, 1973 Tape 528 JM - 4 Chidley. I have gone there quite a few time• to take supplies into the summer fishermen there catching char. So they did the best they could with what they had at that particular time. They were dealing with aome of the moat primative people that we had in Newfoundland and perhaps in Canada and that waa the

section of the Eskimo settlement of Nutak and Hebron, Hebron more especially. The Eskimo of Hebron were more primative than any other class of people that I knew or had read of in North America. So the government started to try to develop some kind of industry apart from the artic char because at that time the artic char was caught up at Sakavik and it was pickled and sold, as my colleague the member for Labrador South aaya, pickled in barrels and the catch ranged from 1,000 barrels (200 pound barrels) up to 1,600 barrels.

I recall a day vhile ·1Uater of· a veasel we served that operation and we brought 1,600 barrels of artic char here to St. John's to be sold to foreign markets. So then of course the service was extended to North West River in 1958,I think, an Indian agent was appointed in North West River and in 1964 a depot was established in Horth West River to supply the Indians. Here, Mr.

Speaker, was a precarious position because on one aide of Horth West River you.had the gpvernment supplying the Indians with food cOIIIDOditiea much cheaper than they could buy from the Hudson Bay Store on the other aide so there was a clash between one aide of the river and the other. That service carried on until two years ago, I believe, when the service was extended to Rigolet. Now having extended this service to Rigolet of course it was alway  very difficult to determine who was an Indian and Eskimo or as we sometimes classify them, a native.

So this is where the problem of determining how far the government could go in Southern 1665

March 8, 1973 Tape No. 529 NM - 1 Labrador and aa my colleague here to my right stated, ve diacuased thia when he was Minister of Welfare, on many occasions. However, he decided to take the gamble and extend services of the Northern Labrador Service south to Rigolet, with the hope,as he stated, that it would be continued on into Black Tickle and other places. But, Sir, there was a problem there because of the federal financial assistance, because in 1957 when Mr. Diefendbaker was Prime Minister of Canada, Mr.

Diefendhaker allowed or granted to the operations of Norther Labrador for housing, school and what not - $200,000. But the next year Mr. Diefendbaker cancelled the $200,000 and it was not before Mr. Pearson got back in a minority government in 1958 or 1959 when that allocation was again renewed and increased to ninety - ten.to $1 million. Sir, since then very great strides have been made. Housing, I recall in Davis Inlet and in Northwest River, I witnessed the indians living in canvas tents, thirty below zero.

I do not have to tell the honourable minister how cold it can get in that part of Labrador, I am sure he is fully aware of it. But, Sir, from canvas tents to sleeping on green bows I saw the Indian and the Eskimo progress to where at least they co~ld live in a wooden shack provided by the efforts of the federal government and the provincial government. There is no Indian today living in a canvas tent, onl! h~ choice. Now you cannot stop them from going in the country and taking a canvas tent. MR. MURPHY: Do you not think it is time for them to be getting adjusted to homes at that time? MR.

WJNSOJ_;_ Well the Indian way of life, you know the Indian ia an outdoor mnn and he was happiest at thnt time,of course, he was happier living in a canvns tent than inn wooden house. 1666

March a. 1973 Tape No. 529 NM - 2 However the hou••• were built all along the coast in every community. Scho_ols - we have in Northern Labrador some of the nicest school that we find anywhere in the rural areas of Newfoundland, all built through the generosity of the Liberal Government at Ottawa and the foreaigbt and the determination and the intereat in those people by the Provincial Liberal Government and I happened to be the member for that district and I took great pride in boasting about what had been done during my term in Northern Labrador.

Now this bill, 1 agree with the minister to extend the facilities that the Northern Labrador people enjoy through to Southern Labrador, but I warn him now that he is going to have a problem and the problem is thia - that he is going to have to convince the federal authorities that this service should be extended, on what grounds 1 do not know, because our present agreement between the provincial and the federal government spells out very clearly that the assistance can only be provided to Indian and Eaki1110. This to me is very unfair. It has been unfair.

But nevertheless I am very happy to ee the honourable minister take the nece  ary action and at least bring in legialation to try to psovide tbe service  to the Southern Labrador. They are badly in need of it. Certain ection of Southern Labrador are very depresaing, almost as depressing as Northern Labrador was fifteen year  ago, until I became the member for that diatrict. But, Sir, we must realize and we must face up to the facts, AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. WINSOR: I will repeal at some other time.

They muat face up to the fact, that we have people in Southern Labrador who are gravely in need of asi tance because they are scattered, especially during the u111111er fihinP, they are cattered in places such as Snug Harbour, Comfort Bite, Occasional Harbour, all 1667

March 8, 1973 'Iape No. 529 NM - 3 over the place and unless you can find first of all some way to centralize those people and then focus on the centralization. Thia ia whAt ha to h• don• ln Southern La~rador, Hr. Sp•aker. You have to centralize the people who are living in the settlements along the coast. You have many of them and you cannot provide the ervices to a population that is scattered all over the place. So, Sir, without taking too much more time of the Houae, I certainly support the bill and I wish the minister good luck.

Now that the Liberals are still in power in Ottawa, there may not be too much difficulty in getting a sympathic hearing from them. MR. SPEAKER: 'Ihe honourable member for St. John's Centre. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, like everybody else I will say I am not going to take up too much time of the House. But I feel that due to the fact that I had the honour for a few short months to be Minister of the famous Department of Labrador Affairs, which in my opinion was the greatest political football and the greatest fare• was ever perpetrated on any civilized people.

I served as minister of that department, Sir, for some time, a few months, and I was amazed,"quite frankly amazed at what was happening in Labrador. I had a long hacd look at it in my early days there and not wishing to be the same as the member for Bell Island, I decided to do this, or I decided to do that, I never heard such expressions before as: "Don't vou do as I do hut you do what I am saying to do," and the intentions were so wonderful, what they were all going to do with Labrador. But I went in there and I had a long, hard look at what was hnppening.

I was also Minster of ProvlnciAl Affairs and I figured that Provincial Affairs was basically Labrador Affairs because never in my mind can anybody persuade me that a resident of Labrador is any less a Newfoundlander or a native of this province than I am. I feel they are all Newfoundlanders: It arose in thi~ honourable 1668

March 8, 1973 Tape No. 529 NM - 4 MR. MURPHY: House where some of us at that time were sitting on the other side, where in the name of political expediency the former Premier of this Province pulled this out of his head and said: 1'thia will be the Province of Newfoundland· and Labrador." We suggested that it could be the Province of Newfoundland and Corner Brook or Newfoundland and Bell Island. It was so silly, the whole thing. But this Department of Labrador Affairs coat this province many thousands of dollars in administration. We had the federal government working in Northern Labrador and I thi