Volume 2 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 2nd Session VERBATIM REPORT Friday, April 6, 1973 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 48

April 6, 1973 The House met at 10:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape 1072 (morning) IB-1 MR. SPEAKER: r~ntlemen, before commencing todays proceedings, I would like to welcome to this honourable House grade VI students from The Sacred Heart

section of the J.R. Smallwood Collegiate in Wabush with their teacher, Mr. Lloyd Snook. They are accompanied by six students from St. Pius X who are hosting the visiting group. I trus~ that your visit to the House of Assembly will be interesting and informative. HON. JOSEPH ROUSSEAU: (MINISTER OF REHABILITATION AND RECREATION): Mr. Speaker, I have a ministerial statement. I wonder if I could ask leave of the House to make it after the questions because I have one more oage coming up? PETITIONS HON. DR. A.T.

ROWE: (MINISTER OF HEALTH): I would ask the indulgence of the House to make an apology for an item appearing in this mornings "Daily News". This statement on the health of the province emanated from the Division of Vital Statistics within my department and I apolo~ize. It should have been tabled to the members of the House beforehand. I saw it this morning in the news and asked my officals what was the reason that it had not been tabled. I understand that the senior offical of the Division of Vital Statistics is ill and this is the reason why the matter has slipped through to the press.

Copies will be tablerl t0 the House today. AN l'ONOl'P.ARLE MEf>!BER: Inaudible. DR. ROWE: The number of people who died from heart disease, cancer.~ You should have had it before it got to the press. I am sorry. !fR. C. llPETT: Mr. Speaker, I beg leRve to present a petition on hehalf of the residents of communities in the southwest arm of Random. These communities are as follows: Northwest Brook, Queens Cove, Long Beach, Hodp.e's Cove, Caplin Cove, Little Ile a rt' s Ease, Rutter f'.ove., <".oosebe rry Cove and Southoort. The p.-tft1nn rrnd,1 Ml follows. It has bren si~ned by 932 people ;ind 3856

April 6, 1973 Tape 1072 (morning) IB-2 they respectfully request that an effort be made this year. to improve road conditions in this part of the district of Trinity North. There was a question directed to the Minister of Transportation and Connntmications some days ago regarding this. He wanted to know if any representation had been made on behalf of these people. I guess that he was referring to this particular petition.

It goes on to say, Sir; "Whereas the distance from the Trans Canada Highway to Southport is approximitely twenty miles and at its best travelling over it is anything but comfortable, the road passes through every other settlement and during the summer months the residents of these settlements are enveloped in dust and since the dwellings are built along this road, windows and doors of these dwellings·must always remain alosed due to the air becoming polluted with dust from passing motor vehicles.

"There is always a continual flow of traffic over this road and millions of pounds of fish are transported over it annually. All s~pplies and provisions must be brought in by this road also. Sections of this road have never been upgraded and especially in the eastern

section there are many bad and dangerous curves. Other roads in the province which do not serve as many settlements and as many people as the Southwest Arm Road does have been given priority especially where the roads throu~h the settlements have been paved. We contend that we have been unjustly n~glected and humbly request that the road in question be upgraded in 1973 and at least the sections of road through the settlements be paved. We respectfully request that our petition for road improvements be given sympathic hearing by the honourable memhers of our Provincial Government, for which we sha.11 forever pray.

" I think to add to that, Mr. Speaker, that there must be in excess of one hundred peonle who commute daily over this road to work at Come Ry Chance, There are in excess of 2,000,000 pounds of fish trucked over it yearly. I heartily endorse this petition. I ask that it be placed on the tahle of the House and referred to 3857

April 6, 1973 Tape 1072 (morning) IB-3 the department to which it relates. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the petition presented on behalf of 932 residents in the Southwest Arm Random area in the District of Trinity North. I think that it is a reasonable request. I trust that the ~overnment will be able to respond to the prayer of the petition in this fiscal year.

Apart from the safety hazards that the honourable member mentioned, Sir, I do not think that the peoole shculd be forced to eat dust in this day and age and women hanP, out their clothes on the clothes lines down there with all the dust that is flying around. So, we have no hesitation, Mr. Sneaker, in supporting this petition. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of some 2,000 students from Memorial University of Newfoundland.

Sir, the prayer of the petition is a very short one and simply reads, "We the students of Memorial Unive!sity totally condemn the action of the p;overnment in the alterations of the Students'Aid Programme." Sir, I think the students at the university certainly meant the mini-brief that they presented to the honourable members of the House of Assembly and to the Minister of Finance and to the Minister of Education to be given some consideration along with this particular petition.

Sir, last ni~ht during the consideration of the estimates on the salary vote to the minister, I reviewed briefly the contents of this mini-brief and Sir, nothinp; can change the simple fact that the students this year - MR. SPEAKER: Order please. If the honourable member will permit, the Chair would like to insoect the petition. From hearing what the honourable member said, it does not appear as if there is any prayer to the petition • It seems to be a statement only, with no prayer.

By definition of petition, you must have a prayer. }layhe there is a prayer to the petition that the honourable memher wishes - ~.!!...:..J:..:. _R~~.!";...:. With due respect, Sir. I have seen some pretty fancv 3858

April 6, 1973 Tape 1072 (morning) IB-4 pretty complex and pretty comprehensive petitions come before this honourable House. I have seen something as simple if not more simple than we see here, Sir. HON. G. OTl'ENHEIMER: (MINISTER OF EDUCATION): On the point of order that the honourable the Speaker brought up, I would suggest that - with all due respect, Your Honour - that whether there is a prayer or not to the petition - and I fully understand that petitions strictly and legally interpreted should have a prayer - whether there is or is not a prayer,that we have the leave of the House that the document be tabled.

I realize that Your Honour is perhaps correct that a petition must have a prayer but whether one agrees or disagrees with what the document reports, certainly I think that we should give leave of the House that it in fact be tabled,and leave the technicality in abeyance. 1'fR. SPEAKER-: I think the honour ah le the Minister of Education's point is well taken and the honourable the member may continue. MR. F. ROWE: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker~ In speaking in sUl)port of this petition, Sir, nothing can change the simple fact that the students this year have to borrow an additional $800 up to $1400 throu~h the Canadian Student Loan in order to qualify for free tuition or for allowances. Sir, I feel quite strongly that this can only result in a decline in student enrollment at the university during the coming year. As honourable members already know, Sir, the per capita attendance in this province is one point five per cent compared with three point one per cent with the rest of Canada.

Sir, the. only thing that this can result in is inequality of educational opportunity in this province as far as the university education is concerned. The students of lower. middle and no income families, particularly in the more rural parts of our provfnce,are J'!Oin~ to find it much more difficult to come to universitv and I submit, Sir, that when a student 1~ 3859

April 6, 1973 Tape no. 1073 Page 1 - MRW confronted with the possibility of having to borrow or go into debt to the tune of $7,000 over a five year period in order to get a Bachelor of Arts or a Bachelor of Science or any bachelor degree with that low earning power. Once he graduates he is going to think twice before going to university. So, Sir, I•give this petition my every support. I would like to point out the three proposals that the students do make in their mini-brief to the government:

(1) The government initiate an independent study into the effects of any changes in their student-aid policy and that these be considered before any changes are made and that the report by the independent committee be made public,

(2) The government immediately consult a joint committee of student affairs to discuss the student-aid policy,

(3) That any and all changes in the student-aid programme be delayed at least until the fall semester. Sir, I think that these are reasonable requests. This government have mentioned time and time again the need for long- term planning and the establishment of priorities. Sir, we can only assume that people seeking an university education also lay out their long-term plans. I would submit, Sir, that their plans were such that they were assuming that next term they would only have to borrow $600 in order to qualify for assistance. Overnight, Sir, they find that they have to borr01o1 up to $1,400.

That certainly would interfere with their long-term plans, So, Sir, I give this petition my every support and I ask that this petition be placed on the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. HON. G. OTTENHEIMER (Minister of Education): Mr. Speaker, very briefly, I may point out that obviously,according to the rules of the House,one can only speak in support of a petition. Obviously one would not speak in support of a document, the main point of which ia condemnation of ~860

April 6, 1973 Tape no. 1073 Page 2 the government, if one is a member of ~e government and if one has confidence in the govermnent. What I wish to point out i  that obviously this restricts what I can say without getting into a procedure of wrangle • I understand that later today when we get back to the ministerial salary vote, the honourable member will be continuing and I would appreciate then, when he has finished, the opportunity to speak on it. There are some matters in actual fact which I think have been misunderstood.

What I am saying now is that in order to avoid the necessity of a procedural wrangle I would be very restricted in what I could say. I would appreciate that when the honourable gentleman has completed his remarks under the heading of ~inister's salary in the Department of Education estimates, I will have an opportunity then to comment on this area and I think to give some facts which are probably not clear. _MR. W. N. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak in support of the petition. It is an important petition. I only want to make one or two points and very briefly.

First of all, Sir, I am worried about the psychological impact of this measure on particularly the students from outside of St. John's. I know of some bright, intelligent young people from my own district,for example, living in small co111111unities, fishermen's sons and daughters who,in the ordinary course of events, under the old scheme would go to university. The thought of having to borrow and go into debt to the extent of up to $1,400 a year or more - I mean there is no indication that a student can come from outside the province and live in St.

John's here and pay tuition, pay board etc., etc., and live on that amount of money per year. There is no indication of that at all. There is a great likelihood of having to go into debt, up to $1,400 a year or more,and that psychological impact on a lot of our students from outside the province, coming from our less well-off families,is likely to discourage some of our best 3861

April 6. 1973 Tape no. 10 73 Page 3 young people from proceeding to the university. MR. MURPHY: the province. MR. W. N. ROWE: I am sure the honourable member means from outside No. from outside St. John's. I mean St. John's. People who have to come in and live in St. John's. If I said outside the province, I withdraw that, Sir. I mean outside the capital City of St. John's. The second point, Sir, is that there seems to be inherent in the new scheme propounded last year and this year by the Minister of Finance,on behalf of the government, a certain discrimination against university students.

I realize that certain things are outside their jurisdiction but there seems to be a certain discrimination, not because of their fault but because of federal programmes which is the point I am trylng to make,where manpower students, i.e., get paid salaries and get paid this and that and the other thing,

whereas university students do not get that, Sir. The third point is the shocking statistics which have already been cited by my colleague, the member for St. Barbe North,that in this province we have one-half the national average going to university and about one-quarter of the average going to university as seen in our more affluent provinces like Ontario and Alberta. Whatever we do in Newfoundland.

Sir, we should not do anything to discourage the people who are likely to be the leaders of our society for some time to come, people who are going to certainly put back more into the common economic pool of this province than they have taken out by having a portion of their university education paid for.

With those few brief remarks, Sir, I would like to go on record as supporting wholeheartedly the petition or at least the thought which is inherent in the petition that the students condemn this action by the government,and implicit in that, Sir. is the reverse; namely that the government reinstitute the programme which 3862

April 61 1973 Tape 110. 1073 Pas• . 4 had been in exitenc• for the lut number of yeara. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I rise in support of this petition. I aincerely aupport the will and the wish of the body of student• at our university. Mr. Speaker, I have to bring a personal problem into this really because maybe not every honourable member of this Bouse has faced it as I am faced with it at the present time. 1974 will bring a year in my life when I hope to send at least one child to university. In 1976 I will send two others to university. In 1977 I will send another to university. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I am confronted with quite a financial problem here because.if my figures are correct. either I or members of my immediate family have to borrow at least $1,400 before they can get any aid from the provincial govenunent. Now if (I hope that this happens. I hope that my f_our children do attend university) you give them an average of four years each in university, which would be the very minimum. this would come 1:0 well over $22,000 within the next six or seven years that either I or members of my immediate family have to borrow. Now, Mr.

Speaker, when you consider the income of my family, that is my income, you realize that this is impossible. It is impossible and really this counts me out as far as sending my kids to university. Not only does it count me out but it counts also at least eighty-five per cent of the people of Newfoundland out. Anyone with an ordinary, average Newfoundland family will find it virtually impossible to send their children to university. MR. MURPHY: (Inaudible). _MR. THOMS: Yes, it is okay for the hon. member for St. John's Centre. MR. MURPHY: I have a son and he has started paying back now.

He does not pay back until six months after he goes to work. It is no obligation on the honourable member. MR. THOMS: Well, Mr. Speaker, if the honourable member for St. John's Centre wants to speak on this, he can. Please give me a chance to speak. 3863

April 6, 197j Tape no. 1073 MR. MURPHY: The honourable member is distorting facts. MR. THOMS: I am not distorting the facts. The figures I presented to you are accurate and true to the best of my knowledge and if they are not,will some honourable gentleman jump up and correct me. Page 5 MR. SPEAKER: Order please! The hon. member for Bonavista North has the right to be heard in silence and he has the floor. MR. THOMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Now, Mr.

Speaker, if the present policy of our present administration is followed this will be probably one of the greatest set-backs in our educational institutions in Newfoundland that we have seen for a long time. MR. SPEAKER: Under Standing Order No. 97, "there shall be no debate on a petition unless the House has it under consideration." The honourable member has made his point but now he is entering into a debate. The honourable member may clue up his remarks but may not enter into further debate on the subject. f\()GA uO -

April 6 • 1973 Tap• No. 1074 NM - l MR, THOMS: Mr. Speaker, sine• I am limited to debate on thi  petition, I do want to go on record as supporting this petition wholeheartedly and also that I will 'do all in my power to have the prayer of this petition brought before the government and hope that they will see fit to change their present policy. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support this petition, if for no other reason, Sir, because it discriminates against the poor people of this province. It discriminates against the poor, Mr, Chairman, or the Minister of Sor.ial - MR. ~PF.AKER: Order please.

The honourable member can draw from Standing Order no. 97 with regard to debate on the petition, there can be no doubt th~t the honourable member is entering into debate. The honourable member will have to confine his remarks to those which fit within the Standing Orders. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, if my remark that this policy of the government, this announced policy does not discriminate against the poor, Sir, I feel that that fits within the rule that Your Honour just quoted, MR, SPEAKER: Again the honourable member is using a device which he uses particularly often when the Chair makes a ruling.

Without directly challenging the ruling, the honourable member res\DDes his place and continues in the samr vein as when he was interrupted, The honourable member is very experienced in the House and knows full well how to proceed and I am quite sure he is capable of doing so. MR. NEARY: I am in the hands of Your Honour. Would Your Honour, tell me how I can support the petition without saying that it does not discriminate against the poor? MR. MURPHY: Inaudible. ~~EARY: That 1 support the petition and con~ratulate the government for bringing in this measure for doing away with the students' allowance? 3865

April 6, 1973 ,Tape No. 1074 NM - 2 MR. WM. ROWE: I riae on a point .of order. A petition was brought before this House and the Speaker said that it might not be a petition which is appropriately received by this House. By universal consent of the House, the petition was in fact received. The prayer of the petition is that the signees to the petition condemn the government action. That prayer has been accepted as a legitimate topic for discussion in this House. My honourable colleague is now rising to support the petition which has been received universally by this House, Sir.

The discussion on it has been universally by this House, How can my colleague then discuss something which condemns a p,overnment action without Your Honour calling him to order for entering into debate~ That is a legitimate question which has been asked by my colleague, Sir, and I would submit that discussion now being permitted in this House by everybody's consent,that he be permitted to make his remarks which are in support of the prayer of the petition. MR. OTTENHEIMER, Minister of Education; On a point of orrler, Mr.

Speaker, I would suggest that the unanimous consent of the House concerned the tabling of the petition but that the rules of the House which preclude debate on a petition,no matter what it asks for, that unanimous consent did not effect the rules of debate, it did effect the tabling of the document. MR. SPEAKER: I think honourable members will admit that the point which was raised by the Chair initially, pointing to the flaw in the petition in that there was no prayer, has obviously led to this difference of, opinion on both sides of the House.

I am inclined to agree with the Minister of Education on a point which he raised, in that the unanimour. consent was that it be deemed 1n order or the petition be deemed appropriate for tabling within the'House,rven thou~h ·full consideration of it does not revP.al any prayer. So far as it then hecominR open season as it w~re,to condemn the government, further remnrks of this nature will he ruled out of order. 3366

April 6, 1973 , Tape No. 1074 NM - 3 MR, F. ROWE: Question please ot Your Honour - it is just a simple question, I just wanted to ask whether the Speaker in fact did rule that the petition did not contain a prayer? Did Bis Honour rule in that regard? MR. SPEAIC":R: I presume I must reply to the honourable member even though hypothetical questions are not answerable, This is probably not a hypothetical question. The Chair is not called upon to rule whether or not there was a prayer to the petition. The point brought up by the Chair and by unanimous consent of the House it was,the petition was received.

There was no request to adjudicate on whether there was a prayer or not. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, in my opinion it is rather unfortunate that this policy should have been adopted at a time when the government is in the process of making arrangements for building a regional college in Corner Brook ·. Is that in order, Mr. Speaker? Can I say that? Am I allowed to say that, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member deserves to be interrupted. He will be interrupted. The honourable member knows that the Chair has no hesitation in interrupting him, it has interrupted him on numerous occasions.

However the Chair does not take kindlv to being bated into interruptions by the honourable member. MR. CROSBIE; On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, the next item . of business is the Education estimates,when this can be debated in full, as the honourable Minister of Education pointed out when the petition was presented. Therefore,all of this discussion on what you can say and not say in the petition is quite irrelevant. The whole matter can be debated in a few minutes time and the honourable gentleman can get on any relevancy he likes then. So why not wait for a few minutes?

MR . .£.:_RQ_Wr:: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, it is true of any petition that is brought into this llousf'. Now I undertook yesterd~y, T promised the students that I would present this

April 6, 1973 Tape No. 1074 MR.___!,._ RO~!f:..:.. petition to the House and this House has to deal with this particular petition in spite of what the Minister of Finance has said. NM - 4 MR. SPEAKER: To quote perhaps a hackney phrase, I think the time has come to cease debate on this petition. Under Standing Order 97 this is quite in order. There has been debate on the petition - MR. NEARY:_ No, there has not been debate on the petition. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Bell Island has P.xceeded the question throughout the debate. MR. NEARY: Throw me out. Throw me out. MR. OTTENIIEI!-1ER: ~r.

Speaker, there can certainly obviously be great differences of opinion here, but when an honourable member shows what is quite obvious to all to be contempt for the Chair, whoever happens to be in the Chair, who says, ''Throw me out, throw me out," what is the inference? "I will do what I want to. I want the Chair to throw me out. I want the headlines. I want to be the martyr.• I would su~gest, Mr.

Speaker, that it is impossible to proceed with any kind of order whatsoever, if any honourable member on any side shows such contempt for this House, the people here, the people who sent us here and you, as to continue in that vein. I call upon some of the honourable gentleman's colleagues who I think obviously will be very emhar~assed to do so, obviously they would be very embarrassed to do so,and that is not fair.

But I am q~ite sure that they know that it is impossible to have a sensible• lor,ical approach to anythinR if any honourable member should show such contempt for all of us as to continue in that vein. '.'-fR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, may I r,o on with the support of the petition? ~IR. SPF.AKF.R: The debate on the petitlon that is before the House has now ceased. Are there any further petitions? ~868

April 6, 1973 Tape No. 1074 NM - 5 MR. I. HOWARD: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition from 186 voters of Red Head Cove, Bay de Verde, The prayer of the petition is that the government undertake - AN, HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, The honourable member for Bay de Verde certainly has the right to be heard in silence when he is presenting a matter of some importance to him and to his constituents. The honourable members both to my right to my left should bear him the courtesy that his petition and the honourable member deserve. MR.

HOWARD: The prayer of the petition is,"the petition of the underai1t11ed, being residents of Bay de Verde District, do humbly show that cattle raising and paatural farming is one of the few potential industries in our district capable of bringing in new dollars and boosting the economy of our area. "

(2) Cattle roaming at large is becoming an unpcpular nuisance and an expensive project. Increased motor traffic, coupled with physical and geographical hazards make the morality rate too expensive an adventure to promote or engage in.

(3) We firmly 3869 •

April 6, 1973 , Tape 1075(Morning) believe that a controlled fenced and ~ared for pasture should eliminate much of the financial risk involved and tend to promote the cattle industry in this district with its abundant marsh land and best grazing grounds.

(4) A random survey shows that about 200,000 pounds of meat is consumed in this district and the ~reater part of this amount is brought in from outside. This means 400 to 500 head of cattle which in tems of buying, breedin~, pasturin~. butchering and selling constitutes a sizeable industry to our already lean economy in this district. "Your petitioners pray that government in line with this present industrial philosophy will take heed of our request and proceed without undue delay to set in motion the machinery whereby a cattle industry in this district will soon become a reality.

Your petitioners further pray that some tangible action will result from our petition." I fully support this petition and ask that it be laid upon the table of this House and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I rise on behalf of my colleagues on this side of the House to humbly support the petition presented by my hon. friend. Mr. Speaker, in so doing I trust that both the Departmert of Rural Development and the Department of Forestry and Agriculture will take this petition and take a very close look at it.

The beef production in Newfoundland today is practically nil when you compare it with the consumption of production within our province. Now this has been caused really because we have not been a farming co11D11unity in the past and we have only been this last ten years really partaking in this new industry of farming of all sorts. For years, Mr. Speaker, we had a vast population of sheep in ou~ province and this last forty years this population have dwindled to almost nil. It is on the verge of recovery at the 3370 JM - 1

April 6, 1973 Tllp• 107.5 present time. But the main reason why our sheep population disappeared was because of the epidemic of dogs that we have had over the years and this epidemic is still with us today. Only last week I had an experience of losing two geese which were destroyed by six dogs in my backyard in Middle Brook, Now we have an epidemic of dogs most definitely not only in my community but throughout the whole Province of Newfoundland even in the City of St. John's I may say. Mr. Speaker, not only do these dogs attack the sheep but they also attack young cows.

If you were to speak to some of our farmers they would give you proof of this. So, Mr. Speaker, while these two departments are looking closely at this petition I hope and pray that the Department of Justice will also take a close look at it and see if there is any way possible that we can control the epidemic of dogs which now exist in our province. Mr. Speaker, on behalf of my colleagues on this side of the House,we wholeheartedly support this petition. MR. SPEAKER: Are there any further petitions? HON. J.C..

ROUSSEAU(MINISTER OF REHABILITATION AND RECREATION): I have what I think to be an important statement, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, for some time the government have been concerned with the position of the employees of the United States Air Force Base at Goose Airport, especially with respect to their future employment opportunities, · their existing pension rights and their termination benefits.

In view, therefore, of the pending transfer of employees and in order to clarify the ~rovincial government's position on this matter and to assist, we hope, in advancing their cause, I feel it incumbent upon me to make a statement to the House concerning the government's position in this whole matter. For the past three or four years a representative group of employees of the United States Air Force B~se have been concerned 3871 JM - 2

April 6, 1973 Tape 1075 with such matters as pension rights, severance pay and other fringe benefits, especially in the light of long-term service,and as well with the fear which existed among many employees with respect to the future of the air base, plus the fact that certain employees had benefits and others did not. While it is my understanding that representations have been made by these employees in the past, it was, however, not until March, 1972, when it was decided by the United States authorities that a review would be made of pensions and related benefits.

Upon representation to the provincial government, the employees were granted the co-operation of the government in that advice was provided for them as to the appropriate course of action to take with respect to their pension and other fringe benefit review. Through the offices of my colleage, the member for St. John's Centre, when he was Minister of Provincial and Labrador Affairs, and upon the direction of the Premier; Mr. Alec G. Henley, C.L.U., Insurance Consultant of A.G. Henley Associates Limited; and Mr.

Fred Bishop,of the Justice Department, were requested to proceed to Goose Bay to meet with the employees and to discuss with them and advise them upon representation with respect to their pension and other requirements. This was completed in February and March, 1972, and as a result, in July, 1972, word was received of improved benefits and of the extent to which the United States Government were prepared to go.

Upon review of the improvements in the plan and in the light of anticipated change of status within the base,as it is now well known to the members of the House, employees involved were still concerned RS to the problem they faced within their employment, their future prospects as well as the lack of benefits in certain areas. As a result of representations by the same committee to the ~overnment, it was agree~ that Mr. Henley should 3872 JM - 3

April 6. 1973 Tape 1075 be asked to completely review the problem in the light of changing circumstances and report to the government with recommendations as to a reasonable course of action in the light of the issues raised by the employees. Mr. F.J. Fitzpatrick was seconded to assist Mr. Henley in reviewing the employees' situation. On January 22, 1973. Mr.

Henley filed his report to the provincial govermnent. which was endorsed completely by cabinet and,as a result of the acceptance of the recommendations in the Henley Report, I communicated on behalf of the government to the Honourable Mitchell Sharp, Minister of External Affairs, and the Honourable J. Marchand, Minister of Transport, on February 22, 1973.

In this communication I outlined the history of the endeavours of the employees and stated the exceptional circumstances which prevailed in the present situation, highlighting the element of uncertainty with respect to employment and the lack of continuity in employment as having decided psychological effects upon all employees. It was because of this fears were raised with respect to the options open to employees and the resultant withdrawal from participation in the pension plan and the forfeiture of certain rights.

After reviewing the rights of the employees and outlining the various inequities that existed, it could be stated that the following recommendations indicate the position of the provincial government:

(1) That as of a date to be agreed upon, which date would precede the present decision to reduce forces at Goose Air Base, the Excelsior Pension Plan be changed to correspond in formula with . . respect to benefits to that of the United States Civil Service Pension Plan, and that this apply to all appropriated fund and non-appropriated fund employees. 3373 JM - 4

April 6, 1973 Tape 1075

(2) That because of the restriction placed upon the employees by the employer, their participation in the Canada Pension Plan now be dated back to January 1, 1966, or their eli~ibility date if later, and that the cost of this adjustment be borne by the employer in view of the circumstances.

(3) That all employees, appropriated fund and non-appropriated fund, receive benefits under the pension plan in relation to their service, especially those with restricted past service as a result of compulsory participation in 1968.

(4) That for those employees moving to the Ministry of Transport for future employment, the pension attained to date on a final average basis with the United States Air Force as employer should be funded immediately for those employees, with the appropriate vesting provisions.

(5) That consideration be ~iven to improvin~ the severance pay of all employees in view of the particular circumstances. JM - 5

(6) That in view of the uncertainty of future employment, especially with the announced intention to renegotiate the lease in 1976, voluntary retirement be considered involuntary retirement unless otherwise assurance is ~iven to employees as to future security of employment. This is essential, as the uncertainty of future employment may force employees to seek more secure employment, ~874

April 6, 1973 Tape 1076 PK - 1 This, in effect, can be considered involuntary separation •.

(7) That all employment. continuous and non-continuous, be used as R credit for employee service.

(8) That if the Excelsior Pension Plan is not improved comparable to the United States Civil Service Plan, provision be made for the following: (

a) In the even of involuntary retirement, complete vesting in the employer's contributions should be extended whether or not the employee withdraws all or part of his contributions. Such vesting should provide for a pension benefit accrued to date as a percentage of the employee's pension assumed to be received at age 65 in relation to his potential career service. less consideration for the employee withdrawing his contributions. This would provide equity because of the fact that in early years the employer contributes very little into the plan in the purchase of units of pension. (

b) Involuntary retirement provides, at the present time, at age 55,with 30 years service, full pension. Consideration should be given to retaining the age but reducing the years of service, as on the present basis it would appear that one per cent of the employees could only benefit from this after 1982. (

c) Involuntary retirement should permit actuarially reduced pensions below age 55, tied to a period of service. (2½ per cent is presently being used.) (

d) Unused sick leave should be credited towards service time for computation of pension upon separation, either voluntary or involuntary.

(9) That assurances with respect to better communication, administrative support and a respresentative residential officer where employees may seek information with respect to their benefits in the event of complete withdrawal of the United States Forces as employer from the area 1be given. This could be as a result of reiistration of all information within the given office in the Capital City of St. John's, or with a department of the provincial or federal 3375

April 6, 1973 Tape 1076 PK - 2 government. I concluded this communication by urging upon the federal government the need to immediately make representations to the American authorities to have the position of the employees improved to their satisfaction. The whole purpose of this exercise, Mr. Speaker, was to impress upon the federal ~overnment that these employees have a reasonable case which we feel our letter to the Honourable Mitchell Sharp illustrates and which was based upon the report submitted to government.

We are in collllllunication with the federal government,waiting to hear from them as to their position upon the representation. However, as time is passing, we feel that we should make our position public in order that the employees may be fully aware what is being done on their behalf. This government is concerned that the employees involved, who have legitimate rights,should have these rights protected.

While we realize that a transfer of employees to the Ministry of Transport will look after certain employment needs, we, nevertheless, feel very strongly that those employees who have no rights at all should also be protected.

We are concerned further with the uncertainty with which certain employees are faced as well as the economic needs as a result of the government uncertainty as illustrated in the communication of March 5, 1973, and I quote "Basically, the Ministry of Transport will provide an opportunity for employment for up to three years at Goose Bay." However, we are limited in our ability to deal directly with this problem and we look forward to favourable action by the federal government to our representations. Let me state emphatically that we concur with the observation of Mr.

Henley that the pension plan as a continuing pension plan of those employees involved is not unreasonable under ordinary circumstances, although there is a need for some improvements. We also concur with his observation that these are extraordinary circumstances in which thP employec>s now find 3376

April 6, 1973 Tape 1076 PK - 3 themselves. And, in view of this, we concur with his obsetvations as to the reasons for and the recommendations to improve the benefits of the employees to reflect a compassion for their peculiar situation, especially for those employees who do not now enjoy benefits. We are concerned about the loss of rights under the vesting provisions of the pension plan,especially if employees are forced to withdrat, their own contributions.

We are further concerned with the problems of rolling over pension rights into the federal government's superannuation plan where employees are so transferred, and, most important, we are concerned for those non-appropriated fund employees. There are three groups of Canadian Civilian employees who are employed at the United States Air Force Base. Those are the Canadian Ci~ilian,appropriated fund employees who are in the United States Civilian Pension Plan.

There are then the Canadian Civilian appropriated fund employees who are in the Excelsior Plan and there are then the non-appropriated fund employees, that is, employees who are not pa!d directly from the United States Air Forc~s Base Vote but are paid from funds generated within the Base itself, such as the PX, the laundry, etc., who have no benefits whatever except participation in the Canada Pension Plan. It would be most regrettable if the United States authorities, in view of the exellent relations which existed between Newfoundlanders and Americans during the years.from that day in 1941 •ihen the Edmond B.

Alexander came in here with the first contingent of United States Troops,were now in an era where they are about to phasedown and possibly phaseout from this area and were to leave under circumstances and conditions that would leave a sour taste. Mr. Speaker, this statement is made to inform the House of what has transpired and what this government is doing on behalf of the employees as well as to inform the employees at Goose Air Base. It is my sincere hope and wish that I will be able to inform the House 3877

April 6, 1973 Tape 1076 PK - 4 in the near future of some good news as a result of representation by this govenunent on behalf of the employees of the Goose Air Base. Thank you. NOTICE OF MOTION DR. A. T. ROWE, {MINISTER OF HEALTH): Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave of this honourable House to present '1 bill, an "Act To .Amend the Mental Health Act." HON. H. COLLINS (MINISTER OF MUNICIPAL AFFARIS AND HOUSING): Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave of the House to introduce a bill , "An Act Further To .Amend the City of St. John's Act." ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS HON.

A. J. MURPHY (MINISTER OF SOCIAL ASSISTANCE): Mr. Speaker, I have a few answers to questions. I am going to table them, All the information is here. There is one particular question that I would just like to mention one or two things on it. This is Question No. 13,on the Order Paper of February 22, asked by the honourable member for Bell Island. It asks for the cost of repairs to houses by electoral districts during February,1972.

The reason I want just to bring to the attention of the House there are three large ones particularly; Gander, twenty-five cases, this is a project under a LIP programme that is tmdertaken in Peterview. There is another one St. John's South, $16,000. This is the LIP programme on the Blackhead Road or Shea Heightsiand St. John's North, $ 7, OOC - eighteen cases, twenty-one on Shea Heights actually and twenty-five in Peterview, eighteen - MR. NEARY: I thought Bell Island got $23,000. MR. MURPHY: Perpetual lip. St. John's North.eir,hteen cases which is the Mundy Pond RpC>cial projects, $7,000. ThC' r<-11t, Mr.

Spc•okr.•r, I wtll t11l,lr• tl111t om•. C/11('Btion No. 7,askc•d hy tlic- Home• 11ono11rahlc• 1111•mbt•r,011 th" 3378

April 6 1 1973 T~pe 1076 PK - 5 Order Paper of February 21. Answers to the member and also for the press.so as the people can be informed. Question No. 185 on the Order Paper of March 21. Question No. 141. HON. A.T.ROWE, Minister of Health: ~r. Speaker, Question No.196, Grder Paper, March 26,asked by the honourable the Leader of the Opposition, and the answer to Question No. 199,on the Or~er Paper of Tuesday March 27, questions asked by the honourable the Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPEAKER: Are there any other further answers to questions? HON. H. R. V. EARLE: (MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND SERVICES): Mr.

Speaker, before calling Orders of the Day I should just like to report to the House,in Buchans the schools and hospital,every­ thing is under control. Four boilers have been installed. The officials of the Department of Public Works have worked far beyond the call of duty, more or less on a twenty-four hour basis,and everything is in good operating condition and conditions are quite satisfactory. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the honourable the Premier.

In view of the facts, Sir, that it was announced this morning that food prices across Canada have gone up another point, what is the provincial government doing to deal with possible causes of this increase that come under provincial jurisdiction? HON. F. D. MOORES jPREMIER): _Mr. Speaker, not just those food prices have come under provincial jurisdiction because the food prices,in this province particularly,are due to very high transportation costs, 3379

April 6, 1973, Tape 1077, Page 1 -- apb Yarning We have had a series of meetin~s with the three Premiers from the Matiti.me Provinces and on Monday we are meeting with ~r. ¥archand and Mr. Jamieson, in Ottawa,regarding transportation costs to this area. Hopefully, some benefit will come from it whereby there will be a reduction in the cost of living in the province. It is a very great concern of this p,overmnent and one that we will do our utmost to try to cure. MR. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker - oh the Minister of Health is not ••• Mll.. ~1EARY: There he is. He is back in the House again. MR.

WINSOR: I will wait for the honourable minister. }1R. NEARY: You have to put your ouestion. We will have to get seat belts for the ministers to keep them in their seats. ".(It. WliNSOR: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the honourable }iinister of Health. It came to my mind when he made a statement about the error in the press about births and deaths and what have you. Cnn the minister inform the House if there are any cases or any known cases, if so,how many victims that are suffering from the effect of the Thalidamide drug?

It is (!uite a concern now in North America and I wonder if there are any known cases existing in Newfoundland? HON. A.T .ROWE(MINISTER OF HEALTH)....:... Mr. Sp£>aker, to my knowledge I do not think there are any cases in Ne"",foundland of disahilitiE's or conp,enital abnormalities resultinr, from the use of the drug Thalidamide. I hav~ not heard of any but I wjll make a~solutely certain. I think if there had been a case I am sure I would have heard about it from one direction or another. I do not think there have been any but I will check specifically. AN HON. r-<E~ffi F.~ : Were there any in Can2da? DR.

ROWE: In Canada, yes. The drug was used in Canada for a number of months before it was taken off the market. I do not think we have one but I will specificnlly find out.definitely. HR. woomrARn: Mr. Spc;iker, the f1inister of Panpower and Industrial Relations is not in his sent today so I would like to direct a 3880

April ,6, 1973, Tape 1077, Page 2 -- apb Morning. question to the ~inister of Recreation and Rehabilitation. In view of the ~tatement that was made this morning by the minister, can he inform the House what is taking place as far as provincial assistance is concerned that is being given to the employees of Goose Air Base? Is the Department of Manpower and Industrial Relations involved in the phase out? Are they assisting those people in getting work with the M.O.T.? Is there any involvement whatsoever by the Department of Manpower and Immigration or any involvement by the minister's department? HON.

J.G.ROUSSEAU (MINISTER OF RECREATION AND REHABILITION): important point to mention here is that, well, as a member for The Labrador,of course, I am very concerned with the transfer of employees from the United States force to the M.O.T. The point of the ministerial statement this morning concerned mainly pension rights. This was our concern and this is what the statement concerned this morning, not the transfer of employees.

As I understand it, there is a committee,made up jointly of the provincial and federal governments,with the honourable member I believe and the federal member for Grand Falls-White Bay-Labrador as ex officio members. To the best of my knowledge, that is the extent of the provincial government's participation; by participating in this group, this task force,to ensure the smooth transfer of personnel from the USAF force to the H.O.T. force. I:1.!l~WOODl~A_!{_]?_:__ A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. ':he Department of Manpower, federal, have offered assistance on a consulting basis to that particular group.

We have no one in the p,roup on the provincial side that is involved with manpower or industrial relations and I feel very stronr.ly about the roll over of the Excelsior Plan into the Superannuation Federal Scheme. I think the Provincial Department of Manpower and Industrial Relations should give some assistance in this respect,to see that it is done. 1-'R. ROlTS~F.Al': --- --- --- Quite apart from the task force which I previously mentioned, of course,! cannot speak for the Department of ~anpower and 3881

April 6, 1973, Tape 1077, Page 3 -- apb Morning Industrial Relations, but I think on past evidence,in their involvement in any area which is struck like this, I do not think that the Department of Manpower and Industrial Relations will leave these people in the lurch if there is anything they can do. As I say, I cannot speak officially for them but on the basis of past evidence, where they have become involved at the Octagon Plant when there was a lay off there and so on and so forth.

I think this has been a continuin~ policy of government when such an occurrence is precipitated as will be precipitated at the Goose Bay Air Force Base. I am sure that the Department of Manpwoer and Industrial Relations will ~ive every consideration as to any help they can provide in the area. MR. WOODWARD : A supplementary question. Maybe I am directinp; the questions to the bottom tier of the cabinet, perhaps I should direct them to the Minister of Industrial Relations, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Industrial Development.

As mentioned in the minister's statement, a number of people that have been employed with non-appropriated funds and funds derived directly from businesses on the base who are not involved in any particular scheme whatsoever, I was wondering if maybe the honourable minister can tell us if either his department or the Department of ~anpower and Industrial Relations are prepared to get involved in nep,otiatinp; on behalf of those people to see th.at they are placed in some type of employment. There could eventually be 150 people without jobs in this respect. t-'R.

DOODY : . ---- -- - As the bonournble member is aware, there was a .1oint task force appointe<l hy the Premier and the ~inister of Re~ional and Economic Expansion. There are four provincial departments represented on that now. There has also been a liaison officer appointed from each of the other, - they have had two meetinr,s so far as I understand it in C.oose Bay. The honourable member who is askinr the question is a member of that conmdttee. I have read the minutes of hath mcPtfnrs hut I hnve not seen the questions nor the 3382

April 6, 1973, Tape 1077, Page 4 - apb points that you have asked here raised on these minutes at the meeting. Morning If you were to suggest at one of these meetings of the joint Federal-Provincial Task Force in Goose Bay, I am sure that the various departments which you mention would be only too happy to appoint representatives or to bring these points up.

Anything that can possibly be done at -that level we will certainly do, The old Department of .Labour which is now the Department of Manpower and Industrial Relations are quite willing and anxious to assist in any kind of job transfer or job assistance or placement, just as they were,as my colleague has pointed out,in the close down of various mines and so on. Should the joint Federal-Provincial Task Force request that kind of participation,the people are available. ~- WOODWARD: A supplementary question to the ~inister of Industrial Development~ Mr. Speaker.

I feel that there is a great need - I do not think we can do it on the level of the people that the minister has appointed to that particular task force. They are not the senior civil servants of his department and they are not on the ministerial level ••• ~- MARSHALL: On a point of order, ~r. Speaker, I hesitate to interrupt the honourable the member for Labrador North ••• !'fR ._!_'f:!'.RY_:_ Sit down. MR. MARSHALL: I hesitate to ••• ?"R. SPF.AKER: Order please! Any member has the ri~ht to rise on a point of order at any time.

Of course, in doing so his remarks should not be anticipated by any of the other members. He has the right to be heard in silence and that is a r,eneral courtesy that has grown up over the centuries and it should be extended to all sides. !._'R. }~APS.!!_A;LJ,_:_ Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think courtesy is a fore:lp.n word to the honourahle the member for Jlell Island .• 3883

April 6, 1973, Tape 1077, Page 5 - apb On the point of order, Mr. Speaker, I hesitate to interrupt my friend from Labrador North,both because he is an old client of mine as such and the fact. that he is relatively new to this House. The point of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, that the honourable member, in asking questions, is really entering into debate ,which is not re1;tlly allowed. MR. l-JOODWARD: I will refrain from enterin~ into debate and go directly into the questions, ~r. Speaker.

I would lfke to }'.orninp; ask the honourable Minister of Ind'ustrial Development if he can re­ assure us,and I do not think that possibly a person with this task force is sufficient. We would like to have a represel\tative of }'fanpower and Immigration to go into Goose Bay to sit down with the different groups and help solve their differences. 3384

April 6, 1973 Tape 1078 (morning) IB-1 They can assess some of the problems that were made in this statement today. So, I am wondering if he can see fit to ask his colleague, the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations to have someone irepresent him in the area now during this particular phase in and phase out of USAF. HON. W. 000nY: (MINISTER OF INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT): As I say, the representation should be made through that joint task force. As soon as that request comes in, we would be only too happy to act on it.

The terns of reference were supplied to the honourable member before the conunittee was appointed and I feel that had you felt it necessary or had your colleagues in Ottawa felt it necessary that that particular government department be represented on it, I am sure that would have been the case. Right now I do not think it is too late. I think that we can probably still convince Ottawa to go along with what you are saying. I have no objection to it. I think it is a good idea but I cannot give you an assurance right now. I will have to consult with the other people. MR. M.

WOODWARD: Just another supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, Manpower saw fit to bring a consultant to offer services to this particular group, not only this Particular group but also any group in the area,like N.P.F. people that were having difficulties. So, could we get the same assurance,that this will be done,from the minister? MR. DOOnY: Certainly. DR. ROl~i: Mr. Speaker, may I have leave of the House to table this document. It is a report on the births, deaths, marriages and the problems in the year 1971 as referred to in my earlier statements. On motion the report tabled, MR. NEARY: ~r.

Speaker, as this i.s F.riday again, I would like to put a ~uestion to the ~inister of Industrial Development. How is the going-out-of-business sale down at the Octagon coming along? MR. noonv: It ti; in good hand!'!. We had another meet-tn,i: this morninp., 3385

April 6, 1973 Tape 1078 (morn1ng) I notice that you are glancing at the galler1es as you ask me the question. There are various interested oarties. Wear~ trying to arrive at a satisfactory conclusion as quickly as we can. I know that there is a great deal of pressure. I am sure that the honourable member is aware that there is a great deal of pressure but we are doinp, the best we possibly can under the circumstances. Bear with us for another few days and I am sure we will have the whole thin~ resolved. MR. THO~S: I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Industrial Develonment.

Could the minister inform this House if there are to date any loans being awarded under the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation? IB-2 ¥R. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, to the best of my knowledge there have been no loans awarded under our scheme. There are quite a number now being processed. I understand that Mr. Spencer and his people are interviewing and talking to and researching various applications that are in. To the best of my knowledge, there have been none actually granted as yet. MR. THOMS: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

Could the honourable minister inform us how soon any loans will be awarded? MR. OOODY: No. MR. WOODWARD: Mr. Speaker, I wo~ld like to direct a question to the - I do not know if I should·direct it to the Minister of Industrial Development or the ~in1ster of Mines and Energy or maybe the person is the Minister of Finance. I have difficulty in decidinp, what resoons1bilities those People have or who is doing what, Mr. Speaker. I am sincere in saying this.

I would like to ask the m1nister,in the chanr,e-over of management at Labrador Linerhoard which I welcome, as of late,with the new manar,ement coming in and streamlf .ninr, the onerat1on, how mnny n~onlc will be losinr, 1obs that are now permanently emn]oved in that operation? 3086

April 6, 1973 Tape 1078 {morning) IB-3 HON. J.C. CROSBIE: (MINISTER OF FINANCE): ~r. Speaker, as a result of reorganization of the operations at Goose Bay, there have been thirteen terminations, seven transfers from salary emnloyee status to hourly employee status, two persons relocated to Stevenville and one resignation. That is twenty-three all together. The people from Forestal are all moved out now. They were all finished on April 2nd. I believe that is the total. As a result, this is to reorganize the ooeration, cut costs and hopefully to make it more efficient.

The net savings because of this at C.oose should be $190,000 in a year. The new organization is now there and we hope that it will produce results. MR. WOODWARD: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Will this be the final reduction when those twenty-three people are either transferred or terminated? ~. CROSBIE: Well, this is a matter of course that is up to t~e management to decide hut from a conversation that I had this morning, I understand that this is it. They now have there new organization at Goose and now we have to have some time to see if this works.

We see no reason why - this will be the organization as long as it works ~roperly and everybody does a good job. So, this is the final change at the moment. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the honourable the Premier and also the Minister of Fisheries.

In view of the fact of the severe ice conditions on the Nort:1east Coast this season and because of this the fishing season is gojng to be somewhat late, has the minister taken any consideration as to giving our fishermen on the Northeast Coast some assistance and if not, have thev been in contact with the federal ~overnment as to some possible programme of assistance to the fishermen?. HON. F.D. MOORES: (PREMIER): I was absent from the House when the question was asked. Would vou rer,eat it please? MR.

THOMS: In view of the fact of the ice conditions on the Northeast Coast thiR season, the fishinp, season w:1.11 be somewhRt 1 ,cite. Does the 3887

April 6, 1973 Tape 1078 (morning) IB-4 Provincial Department of Fisheries or the province plan on giving the fishermen in that area anv assistance and if not, have they been in contact with the federal government as to coming up with some kind of a "rogramme on a cost-share basis to assist these fishermen? MR. MOORES: We have tried to come up with the federal government on a fishermed~ insurance, ~r. Speaker, and have been turned down continuously on it. It is on-going. We will continue to do so. I am afraid the ~overnment cannot be responsible for the ice conditions on the Northeast Coast.

We know it is unfortunate and we hope that the wind will change and the ice will blow off. There is no time lost yet in the fishery on the Northeast Coast as the honourahle gentleman well knows and until such time as there is, there is not much that we can do. On motion of the hon. Minister of Mines and Energy, a bill, "An Act 1-·urther To Amend The Crown LAnds (Mines and Quarries) Act, read a f1rst time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the hon.

Minister of Argiculture and Forests, a bill, "An Act To Rev:lf;f' And Consolidate The Law With Respect To The MarketinR Of Natural Products, 11 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomocrow. On motion of the hon. Minister of Justice, a bill, "An Act To Fepeal The Department Of Labrador Affairs Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. 3888

April 6, 1973 Tape No. 1079 NM - 1 On motion of the honourable Minieter of Industrial Development, A Hill, "An Act To ~atify, Confirm And Adopt An Indenture Entered Into Between The (;overnment, Newfoundland Steel

(1968) Company Limited And Lundrigans Limited With Respect To The Termination Of The Agreement Forming The

Schedule To The Government - Newfoundland Steel

(1968) Company Limited - Lundrigans Limited (Agreement) Act, 1969, And To Make Statutory Provision Respecting Matters Connected Therewith," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the honourable Minister of Health, A Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Health And Public Welfare Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow, On motion of the honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs And Housing, A Bill, "An Act To Ratify, Confirm And Adc,pt An Agreement Made Between The Government And Kennco Exploration11 Canada Limited." - MR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, I do not mind ratifying and confirminr and adopting agreements but there must be an error here somewhere. I believe this Bill should be in the name of the Minister of Industrial Development. MR. MARSHALL: When it comes to second reading we will sort that out. It was introduced by the government anyway. On motion of the honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, A Bill, "An Act To ltatify, Confirm And Adopt An Agreement Made Between The Government And Kennco Explorations Canada Limited," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

On motion of the honourable Minister of Justice, A Bill, "An Act To Amend The Dog Act, 1966," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow, On motion of the honourable Minister of Finance, A Bill, "An Act To Further Amend The Gasoline Tax Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow, 3889

April 6, 1973 Tape No, 1079 NM - 2 On motion, A Bill, "An Act Respecting Proceedings Against The Crown," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On motion, -A Bill, "An Act Respecting Allowances For . · Certain People In Private Homes For Special Care," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On motion, A Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Highway Traffic Act," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper.

On motion, A Bill, "An Act To Amend The Welfare Institutions Licenaing Act," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On motion, A Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The City Of Corner Brook Act," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On motion, A Bill, "An Act Respecting Tenancies Of Residential Premises," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. HEAD 601-01: (Education) MR. F. ROWE: Mr.

Chairman, last night I was just getting to my few remarks on this particular vote under the Department of Education. I was trying to point out the simple fact that as far as university education is concerned in this province now as it relates to the assistance and tuition a student can get and the fact that they now have to borrow $1,400 before qualifying for such as~istance,that we come full circle back to pre-Confederation days as far as educational opportunity is concerned for a higher education. Sir, we now have a situation where it is not the intellett of a student or.the 3890

April 6, 1973 Tape 1080 magnitude or the size of the brain of a student that count• nor i• it the ambition nor the drive nor the industry of a student that qualifies him for a university education but it goes right back to the size of his wallet, Sir.

I said that, Sir, in full realization of the fact that students can borrow up to $7,000 over a five year period,and many of the degrees now are joined degrees and some of the professional degrees are five year degress, I say that in full realization of the fact that students can borrow this money and they do not have to start to pay it back until six months after they have gained employment or after they have graduated from the university.

Btit the point is, Sir, and I ask this question quite sincerely, how many people in Newfoundland, how many young people in Newfoundland who are from middle, low income and no income groups are ~oing to put themselves $7,000 in debt to get a single degree, an undergraduate degree from a university,when most of these undergraduate degrees do not give students or graduates a high earning power? I submit, Sir, that many, many students will take a second look at going to university under these circumstances. Sir, it was just over the past couple of years that the hon.

Minister of Finance garnered the support of just about every single university student in this province in his leadership campaign and in the two provincial election campaigns and the students of this province were instrumental in getting the Liberals defeated and they voted for a change of policy and this is the gratitude that is shown by the hon. Minister of Finance. He has stuck the machete or the knife in the backs of the students. Last year the hon. Minister of Finance raised the amount by, I believe, $200.00 that they had to borrow.and this year he raised the amount by $800.00 up to $1,400.00.

Sir, that is gratitude ·if ever I saw it: a stab in the back. The wheel has come full JM - l

April 6, 1973 Tape 1080 circle, Sir. Now the hon. Minister of Finance mentioned on television last night that there are certain figure ·s and facts that hon. members on this side of the House and the students are not aware of. Sir, the obvious time for the Minister of Education and the Minister of Finance to pass out these facts was to the delegation that met with the two ministers yesterday. We have not heard these facts yet and I am very interested in seeing them. The hon. Minister of Finance also mentioned that studies have been carried out as far as the effects of this change of policy are concerned.

Sir, I ask the hon. Minister of Education if he would table all of the reports of ~he studies that have been carried out with respect to what effect this would have on the students as a result of their change of policy. Sir, the students were also disappointed that the Department of Education and the Department of Finance did not consult members of the students' union or the university administration on this decision and feel that the present situation could have been averted had this been done. Sir, I would like to know from the hon.

Minister of Education whether or not the students' union, the executive of the students' union himself and a certain segment of the university administration were consulted. Sir, perhaps the most immediate problem is the fact that this change of policy or this new policy starts next semester and the students have already planned on returning to the university for the third semester and have made their plans for financing their education and they have made their plans in li~ht of the orip.inal policy with respect to the amount the students had to borrow.

Sir, the students are simply asking in their brief that any and all changes in the student-aid programme be delayed at least until the fall semester. Now, Sir, I think this is a 3392 JM - 2

April 6, 197:3 Tap• 1080 legitimate request. As I pointed out earlier this moming,this present administration is very big, very strong on the need for long-range, long-term planning and short-term planning and presumably any student who is going to university does precisely the same thing. He plans on a long-range basis and short-range basis as far as his financing is concerned,and now we have·a situation where overnight there is a dramatic policy change with respect to financing their university education.

I think the only fair thing that this administration can do is to put this change of policy off until the fall semester and not implement it during the third and summer semester. Sir, I could go on at great length as far as this student's tuition is concerned but the points were made last night, they were made again during the presentation of the petition this morning and now I just referred to it once again briefly and I am awaiting with anticipation the remarks of the hon. Minister of Education with respect to that particular vote of 604(05).

Sir, another question,relating to policy I guess, that I would like the minister to answer,is this whole business of the financing of school boards for election expenses. Now we have had a change of policy over the last year or so, couple of years where school boards can now elect a certain fraction of their members. Sir, certain chainnen of school boards, the Avalon Consolidated School Board;for example,say that it is grossly unfair for the government to expect school hoards to pay the full cost of the election of their members.

He says, Sir, that the board, and this obviously would go for other Boards of Education in this province, is already desperately in need of money and just cannot afford to finance the election of members of the school board. So, Sir, I would like the minister ·to p.ive the House, this committee,some information as to whether or not the government or the minister's department is prepared to 3393 JM - l

April 6, 1973 Tape 1080 help the school boards to finance their own free elections. Sir, there is another point that I would like to refer to in the regulations. There is a

section of the regulations relating to the election of school boards which stipulates that those people in arrears to a school board or school tax authority, with regard to unpaid taxes or assessments for more than twelve months,cannot vote or they cannot be a candidate for election to school boards.

Now, Sir, I submit that the proper place for this kind of a thing to be taken care of as far as being in arrears and the payment of taxes is concerned is the courts of the land and I think it is grossly unfair that citizens of this province cannot stand as candidates nor can they vote for the election of members of school boards simply because they may be in arrears in taxes.

Certain publicity has been given recently to certain council members, for instance,who are in arrears in taxes and there are many citizens - I suppose myself,I have been in arrears in taxes from time to time as have all hon. members of this House,for some reason or another, and behind in bills. The simple fact of the matter is, Sir, that we are depriving them of their democratic rights in this regard. So I would like for the minister to relate to that if he would,please.

Sir, another point that I would like to bring up at this time is the services to school boards as far as the salaries of teachers and superintendents areconcerned. Last year the vote in this particular head was $55,700,000 and this year it is $64 million, a difference of plus $8 million. Now, Sir, this increase in the vote for the salaries of teachers and superintendents will just barely cover,number one,the normal yearly increments that are paid to teachers and it will also .1ust barely cover the raise in salaries that individual teachers would expect to have as a result of theit increased qualiftcations.

Sir, this additional $8 miJlJon will not incrcase,nurnher onc,the overall salaries of teachers. I understand that the teachers are presently nep,otiatinp, 3894 JM - 4

April 6, 1973 Tape 1080 with the government for the purposes of salary increases, Neither, Sir, will it reduce the student-teacher ratio.although the Minister of Finance, I believe in his budget speech,suggested that this thing would be dealt with in the year coming, not this year, Now, Sir, what I am concerned about is not so much that we will not have an immediate increase in teachers salaries or an immediate decrease i~ the student-teacher ratio,however desirable these things may be,but what I am concerned about is the press release put out by the hon.

Minister of Education just a few days ago, The ~inister, if I can just quote two sections of it, said that related to this (this is the pupil-teacher ratio for the academic year beginning 1974) the government has decided to amend irrelevant reguiations to allow an addit _ional year of grace to school boards before the number of teachers need be reduced when enrollment decreases in a particular are due to natural causes.

Now, Sir, most school boards can see the wisdom of this and can see the meaning of it but, Sir, there is a second part to this particular release that a number of school board members have told me is most confusing to them, This does not mean that the school boards will be allowed to retain the s~me number of teacher salary units in a school if its enrollment decreases significantly as a result of school reorganization or administrative decisions of the board,such as a·redefinition of attendance zones. Now, Sir, it has come to my attention from a number of school boards that this is extremely confusing.

Sir, what we have is a situation like this: If you have a school board that has five say one room schools or five extremely small schools, and we have a number of school board areas that have a number· of'school board areas that have this kind of a situation, and each one of these schools have ·something like thirty-eight students per school, each one of these schools are allowed to have two teachers,which gives a total of ten 3895 JM - 5

April 6, 1973 Tape 1080 teachers who can be employed under that particular school board because of these five existing small schools. Now at the very present time many school boards are in the process of phasing out such schools and they are bussin~ these students now into larp,er,central,all-grade schools or regional high schools or junior high schools. Consequently, Sir, when this happens that school board finds that in replacinp these ten teachers,according to the salary unit regulations,only five or six teachers can be employed by that school board in place of the original ten teachers.

Consequently most school boards in this province today,as a result of even the amendments that the minister mentioned,will end up having.to reduce the number of teachers employed by these school boards and consequently, Sir, we will have during this coming year a iayoff of teachers from some of the school boards in this province. Sir, a principal of a junior 3896 JM - 6

April 6, 1973 Tape 1081 PK - 1 high school just last year said that teachers should take very strong action,including strikes if neces ary,to lower the present student ratio. Sir, the year beforo these same teachers went on strike for salaries and• suggestion was made by a prominent educator in this province,just one year ago,that this year the teachers should strike for the good of our students. AN HON. MEMBER: That is ridiculous. MR. ROWE I F • B • What is ridiculous? I _am not talking about whether it is ridiculous or not, Sir, I am simply pointing out the fact that there are prominent educators - AN HON.

MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROWE, F. B. I never hears the honourable member a year or so ago saying how ridiculous or any honourable member on the other side of the House saying how ridiculous it was for teachers to be striking for salary increases. As a matter of fact they were aided and abated by . some of the honourable members on the other side at that time. They were encouraged but now all of a sudden the wheel is turned fully around and we have a statement from the honourable for - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROWE, F. B.

I did not say any such thing and the honourable minister knows full well that he is twisting the facts and he is twisting words. AN HON. MEMBER: I am just asking a question. MR. ROWE , F. B. I did not say any such thing. I am merely pointing out that there is a prominent educator in this province who last year suggested that the year before they struck for higher salaries,and this year,for the good of the students, they should strike in order to get a lower student ratio. I am just pointing out the seriousness of the situation, Sir. The Minister of Finance knows full well that this is exactly what I am doing. MR.

CROSBIE: Inaudible. 3 n 9 7

April 6, 1973 Tape 1081 Pk - 2 MR. ROWE, F. B. Mr. Chairman, the honourable members of this opposition are not responsible for fonnulating nor implementing government policy. It is the honourable members on the other side who are responsible for doing this. It is cheap, childish, cynical, simple-mindedness for them to ask honourable members on this side of the House whether or not they agree with such action. MR. ROWE, W.N. Ask the Minister of Finance why he changed his mind this year irom last year? Last year he was all in favour of it. MR. ROWE, F. B.

The honourable the Minister of Finance has about­ faced,on just about everything he stood for,over the past two years. MR. NEARY: A default in credibility. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudibility. MR. ROWE, F. B. Oh, yes, where was the honourable Minister of Finance, he was not down on the steps of the Confederation Building yesterday? And neither was the opposition inciting a riot. Yesterday the honourable Leader of the Opposition took pains to point out to students that they should use every legal available means to state their case.

Both the honourable Leader of the Opposition and myself took pains to point out to the students what the rules of the House were with respect to the waving of placards and with respect to conversation in the gallery. Two years ago the honourable minister would have loved to see a riot in the galleries. All of a sudden, he is pure and simple, Mr. Clean. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please! The subject under discussion is not relevant to the topic which yoµ started,from the beginning here. The subject is not relevant to what y~u started out to discuss in regards to teachers.

It is the feeling of the chair that you continue and that you have the right to be heard in silence, MR. ROWE, F. B. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 3fl98

April 6, 1973 Tape 1081 PK - 3 Another point that I would like the honourable Minister of Education to relate to is this whole business of transportation of sch~ol children to the schools. Sir, last year the vote for this particular heading was $6,300,000 ( rounded off), this year it is $6,900,000 an increase of only one-half million dollars. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR, RORE, F. B. I did not say any such thing, MR, CROSBIE: Inaudible. MR, ROWE, P. B. Mr.

Chairman, if I have to be continually badgered in this House of Assembly while I am trying to make a few points, make no wonder 1 get off the main topic every now and then. Now, Sir, 1 ask this simple question, do I have the right to be heard in silence or do I not? The honourabl~ the Minister of Finance will have plenty of time during this debate to stand up and make his weak points - MR, CROSBIE: He is very touchy. He is very touchy. MR. F. B, ROWE: Now, Mr. Chairman, what is the story? Am 1 going to have the right to be heard in silence or do I have to squelch the honourable Minister of Finance again. AN HON.

MEMBER: If he cannot stand the heat- MR. ROWE, F. B. I love the heat. I love the heat. Now, Sir, number one,I did not say that there was a decrease last year. I said there was probably a decrease in the rate of increase,which is a totally different thing. I did not say there was a decrease. The vote last year was almost exactly the same as the year before. There is an increase this year of $590,000.

But, Sir, the only point that I would like to make is that school boards have informed me that this is simply not enough money to operate the school buses, particularly in the rural areas of our province, in Northern Newfoundland and in Labrador. We have to take consideration of a safety factor as far as the operation of these school buses are concerned. 3399

April 6, 1973 Tape 1081 PK - 4 Sir, the formula announced by the original Minister of Education las t year did not take into consideration to the extent that it should have the whole business of population density, the road conditions in the various areas and the weather conditions. Now, Sir, what I am sui::gesting is that the government should under-write the total cost of school bus transportation as was the original policy,u~der the previous administration.

Now, Sir, the reason why the administration does not want to do that is that they realize that there may possibly be an abuse of the formula under these circumstances. Sir, surely the school b.oards of this province can be trusted to do a reasonably 3JOO

April 6, 1973 Tape No. 1082 NM - l MR. F. ROWE: job in the organization of school bus transportation in this province and they can be trusted that the situation will not be abused to too great an extent.

So I would like for the minister to indicate whether or not there is any possibility of reinstating the original policy of the administration and that is to have the government underwrite the total cost of school bus transportation because we are going to end up with a very serious situation in this province if we continue to give school boards an inadequate amount of money for the proper and safe operation of school buses in this province. Sir, another point that I would like the honourable minister to relate to when we are dealing with the estimates is this whole business of operational grants.

The operational grant this year was increased by an amount of $1,044,000 and once again, Sir, because of the severe winter, the use. consumption of fuel oil by the various school boards, the great number of broken sewer lines and the thawing of water lines that had to be undertaken in many schools.and due to the increased labour costs, many of the maintenance personnel that are employed by school boards have had raises in their salaries over the last couple of years and consequently the operational expenditure of school boards has risen dramatically over the past couple of years and we have not had a proportionate increase in the operational grants to these school boards.

Another thing, Sir, is this whole business of DREE schools. These DREE schools are basically a good thing but it imposes a great burden on school boards because the school boards are responsihle.,obviously, for operating these DREE schools and con~equently this is another reason for an additional burden as far as the operation of schools are conccrned,and we have not had a proportional increase in the operational Rrants. 3301

April 6, 1973 Tape No. 1082 NM - 2 MR. F. ROWE: Now, Sir, this whole business of erection and equipment of schools: The vote, aa I understand it, for services to school boards for the erection and equipment of schools is identical to what it was last year - $8 million­ with the exception of the grant which came from the Department of DREE for the erection and building of some of the OREE schools. I think that we have come to the point where this administration or any administration has to take the bull by the horns.

We got a situation now where we have many school boards who simply do not have enough money for capital expenditure. Sir, to give an example, educ~tional authorities have estimated that Newfoundland schools requirements in the period to 1975 will cost in the vicinity of $70 million for about 2,000 new classrooms, 1,200 classrooms will be required in so-call-d non DREE areas at a cost of more than $32 million, An estimated $38 million is needed and has begun to be sp~nt in DREE special areas to build between 700 and 800 other classrooms. Sir, the St.

John's Roman Catholic School Board is in desperate need of three additional schools capable of accommodating 600 students each but,according to the Chainnan, Aiden Woodford, the school board has borrowed to the limit of its capacity and is presently $7 million in debt. "At present," Mr. Woodford says, "we have three new schools ur.der construction and this will lessen the problem of over-crowding but the only solution is construction of three additional schools that can accommodate 600 students each.

However, the board does not have the money necessary to undertake such construction." Educational authorities su~gested that they needed $70 million extra up to 1975, thiF means that they need approxim~tely $23 million per year. AN l!ON. '·!EMBER: InaucHh 1 c>. M~. F. P.01{1':: Okay, the total expenditure capital from ~overnmcntal 3902

April 6, 1973 Tape No. 1082 NM - 3 MR. F. ROWE: sources, both provincial and federal this year, quite correctly,this is what I said, that the provincial grant was $8 million, precisely the same as it was last year with the exception of the fact that there is a grant coming through the Department of DREE. But it has been stated by authorities that $23 million is needed for n~w construction. Now that is not taking into consideration the fact that school boards, like the Roman Catholic School Board here in St.

John's or the Avalon Roman Catholic School Board,is $7 million in debt and much of the money that they are receiving from governmental sources is used to service the debt. That $8 million that is bein2 passed out to the school boards this year will not go for new construction. It will not go for new construction. AN HON. MEMBER: To the debt. MR. F. ROWE: Most of it or a huge quantity of it will go for servicing the debt.

This is why I mentioned, Sir, to the honourable Minister of Finance,when John Turner announced $24 million for this province through an adjustment in the equalization formula, that this money should go directly into education in order to write off the debts of the school board, so that money granted from the provincial authorities and the federal authorities for capital expenditure and education can go for the purpose intended, ·that is capital construction. Now, Sir, what does all this lead up to? Where is the revenue coming from?

From school boards, number one, from the provincial authorities 1 to the tune of $8 million, from federal authorities,that is approximately $11 million, comin~ from OREE, the other source. Sir, there are a couple of other sources, this whole business of assessment and the establishment of school tax authorities. 3903

April 6, 1973 Tape No. 1082 HR. F. ROWE: Now, Sir, school tax authorities, as far as I am concemedpis a last ditch desperate attempt, a very inefficient means to collect revenue for expenditures on education. School tax authorities are having great difficulties in collecting money from people through poll taxes or assessments or company taxes or what have you.

NM - 4 Sir, for instance, at a recent meeting with the Provincial School Tax Authority and the Minister of Education, the items for discussion were things such as this - the collection of school tax from recipients of social as~istance, the possible collection of school tax from recipients of social assistance. Should this be done? Question number one,and question number two, how is it to be done? Number three - to what extent should it be done? Another topic for discussion was payroll deduction of the poll tax from government employees. How,and how much?

Another topic - the institution of property taxation for school tax purposes in additional communities, a very, very controversial subject. Another thing - the imposition of poll taxes on owners of businesses or other properties where no property assessments are available. Another topic for discussion - the imposition of poll tax on occupants of tax-exempt property where grants in lieu of property taxes are paid.

Another topic - the collection of school tax from recipients of manpower allowances for attendinP, vocational or upp,rading schools, The inspection of employers'payroll records by school tax authorities - should we have this or should we not? Sir. if ever there were a controversial and a difficult method of collecting revenue for purposes of education, surely school tax authorities must be one of ~he most controversial, one of the most difficult, one of the most inefficient means of 3904

April 6, 1973 ' Tape No. 1082 NM - 5 MR. F. ROWE: collectiJlg such revenue. Sir, on top of that it can be very ._nfair and certainly inequalities or inequities result. Nobody can tell me that a school tu authority established in St. John'• has an identical capacity to pay taxes as a school tax authority established say on the Great No.rthem Peninsula where you have a great amount of unetnplc,yment, where 3905

April 6, 1973 Tape 1083 (morning) J;B-1 the assessment of property is a difficult thing, where simply the capacity to pay taxes is not at all the same and we will have gross inequalities of educational oppo~tunitv if money were to revert back to school tax authorities according to the capacity of school tax authorities to pay. Sir, there is a definite need for financin~ of education by the government itself. The Provincial Government should take immediately, not in one or two or three years time, the full responsibility for financing education in this province.

AN HONOURABLE 'MEMBER: Where is the money coming from? MR. F. ROWE: Now, this,therein lies the nroblem. You might say: "Where is the money coming from anyway?" No matter what system of collection of revenue for purposes of education we establish in this province, whether it is school board assessments, whether it is the establishment of school tax authorities, whether there is a Provincial School Tax Authority or whether the government accepts full responsibility for it, no matter what system we have - the honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing asked where the money comes from.

It comes from your pocket. It comes from my pocket. It comes from the pockets of the peoole of this province. That is where the money comes from. Therefore, what should we do? The government under these circumstances - since no matter what system of collection is established, the money ultimately comes from the pockets of the people - should establish the 1mst efficient, streamlined, non-controversial, e~uitahle and fair system that vou can establish.

The onlv system that qualifies according to these descrintions that I 1ust gave is for the ~overnment to establish a Provincial School Tax Authoritv or (why, you can call it that) the rovernment accept full resnonsi.hil:I ty for collecting money for JHJT.POSC'!I of education fn this province. Now, ohviomily this wlll take o hit of study. Hhnt do you do? no vou put ll couple of more percentage points on the Rnles tax? I do not know whether that 3906

April 6, 1973 Tape 1083 (morning) IB-3 the matter is that I said that no matter what system you use for collection for purposes of education in this province, the money comes from the peoples' pockets anyway. I am saying that the most fair, equitable, streamlined and efficient means of doing this is to make the government fully responsible for it. Well, if you know all about that, Mr.

Chairman, why does the government not,now that they are in power,simply abolish all school tax authoritiesr I ha~e been talking with members of school boards and they would love to see the abolition of school tax authorities in this province and have the government accept full responsibility for financing education. Sir, we can get into that in greater detail a little later on.

Now, Sir, I would like to - this is the only place that I can bring this up - I would like to get into this whole business of assisting the poor parents of this province to pay for some aspects of educ11tion of their children in elementary and primary school. Sir, I would like to trace developments over the past year or so with respect to assisting the needy mothers in our province. Sir, I do not know if I should ask for a ruling on this. I realize that there is no vote for mother~ allowance. Is there a head there. AN H0NOURARL F. MEMBER: There is a head there. MR. F. ROWE: There is a head there.

So, I am well within the rules to discuss this particular topic. · Sir, an editoral in a daily newspaper on August 16, 1972 states that Premier Moores has taken the ri~ht course in takinr, a second look at the proposal to droo mother8' allowance. The proposal should not have been made in the firBt nlace and should not have been allowed to he caught uo in the middle of a political rankle. The truth f s thnt the mothers' allow11nce is very useful to most mother!! in this province, not all mothers hut most mothers . . They need it,esp~ctally at thP heginninr, of the school year when there are extra 3908

April 6, 197 3 Tape 1083 (morning) IB-4 expenses to be met and every cent counts. Those who argue that the allowance does not count likely have never heen in a position where they had to search for a dollar to take care o~ extras. Anyone that has not known need can hardly be expected to understand what the mothers' all~wance means, meager though it may seem to be. Our advise to Mr. Moores is to reinstate the allowance and do it now in time for the new school year 1 especially since the federal governments prop.,sed new family income plan has gone astray. Sir, we s ti 11 do not have th:f s programme implemented.

Sir, on August 30, 1972,there was a delegation of mothers in to meet the honourable the Premier and the heading of this item in the newspaper was, "Mothers get commitment. New school allowance scheme he:fn~ considered by Cabinet." This was in August of last year, Sir, and I might point out that this was just prior to one by-election in Labrador South. Shortly afterwards the entire group of mothers and children were invited into the large Cabinet room where the Premier announced something would have to be done.

A loud outburst of applause greeted his announcement that the Cabinet was to consider a proposal offered by Social Services and Rehabilitation Minister, Tom llickey,and that the ~overnment would take a position on the issue before the end of the week. Sir, I dn not know whether th:fs is misleading or not, whether this is misrenresentation, whether this is trlckery. I am just asking the Question. Is it?

Just nrior to a by-election in Labrador South ,Peddle says, "Mothers allowance should be reinstated.'' MOne of the honourable member's federal collenr,ues, Ambrose Peddle, M.P. for Grand Falls, White Bay, Labrador,said tonay that in view of the fact th;i.t this nrop,ramme 1"111 not be p,oinr. throup.h this year, the only honourable thinr now for the ProvlnciAl Government to do would be to reinstate the mothers Allowance.'' Supnort, Sir, from one of the federal 3909

April 6, 1973, Tape 1084, Page 1 --_apb Morning coll NIP,IICfl of honourahle memhers on the other Ride. They will P,C!t their nm1wer on Frfclny. "r-'oore11 mrrtfl mothrrs" Sir, I nm (!uoting from a newsp11per this is why I nm uainp, the> name of the honourable the Premier. "The provincial cabinet hopes to have hammered out a ne"' formula for the payment of mothers' allowances only to needy families and to unveil the new p~ogramme by Friday." Just before the provincial bye-election, Sir, in Labrador South. "Premier Moores gave this assurance to a group of St.

John's mothers who marched on Confederation Building Tuesday morning, claiming the twenty dollar annual payment per school child was badly needed by poor families, "Social Services and Rehabilitation Y-finister Thomas Hickey has a proposal for paying mothers' allowances only to needy families, prepared for cahinet study, and Premier Moores says a decision shall be available by Friday, details of the proposal have not been revealed.

"One honourable member of the opposition, the Liberal Party pokesman on ducation welcomed the news that the government is reconsidering paying some form of mothers' allowance but he hastened to add that he hoped it was not a partisan move by the Progressive Conservative Party to gain support of the needy families in Lahrador South in the bye election on Thursday." You talk ahout misrepresentation, talk about being led up the garden path, Sir. MR. NEARY: It is downrip,ht dishonest. HR. CHA IR MAN: ·---- ·· · - The honourahle member may not talk about misrepresentation or similar unparliamentary words.

The honourable member knows full well that these words are 'JUite proscribed by the rules of all !louses of P;irlfament. rm. '1/\T:SllALL: Sit clown while the Clrn:frman is spcakinr:, sit down. rip. r. n. P0\ff: Oh shut up. I will Dbidf' by the rulinr. of the hnnour:ihlc- f'h;iirm,1n. T w.is not lonldnr. at the- honourable Ch.iirm;in, lf he- ;i~k~ me to sit down,T will sit down. 3910

April 6, 1973, Tape 1084, Page 2 -- apb Morning Ml. CHAIRMAN: For the benefit of all honourable members, ttte rule with regard to standing and sitting is that when the Chairman or the Speaker stands, anybody automa .tically sits if he happen to be standing at the time. The honourable member's attention is being drawn to the unparliamentary phrases that he is utterinR and perhaps the honourable member would like to rephrase some of the things he has said. MR. "F • B • ROWE: Mr. Chairman, I ask this honourable House,is this not misrepresentation?

Is this an honourable thing for the honourable the Premier and his honourable ministers to do just a day or so before an election? Is this not leading the people of Newfoundland up the garden path? AN HON. 1-fEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. F .B.ROWE: . . I elm asking a question. Premier ?-loores again; "Protest march of mothers to greet Premier Moores." AN HON. 1-fEMBER: Oh my! MR. F.B.ROWE: Oh it hurts, Mr. Chairman, it hurts. Mr. W. N. Rowe: Smarting under that. MR. F.B.ROWE: "Mrs. Johnson says that the Premier broke his word.

Premier ~oores said that while the government will not reinstate the mothers' allowance, it will ititiate a study of the needs of low income families in this province. He said the study is a priority item for his government and will be handled by the Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation." Backtracking, Sir, ?-1R. CROSBIE: _ __ _ Who is their clipping service? MR. F.B.ROWE: Oh listeTwho is speakinr,, Mr.Chairman, the king of the clippers himself. lie used to have it passed in by the truck load ••• nR.

W.N.ROWE: ----- - -· Peckford got arthritis from clipping out newspapers. '!-'R • CROSB IF.: ------ -- I never had a clippin~ service. ?-'.R. CHAIP~AN: ·---- - Order please! The honourable member from White Bay South, a veteran of this House, should real:f ze that he :Is to ref er to honourable members by the district which they represent and not by 3911

April 6, 1973, Tape 1084, Page 3 -- apb their surnames. ?-IR. W.N.ROWE: I am sorry, Sir, I forgot. AN HON. ~~BF.R: He was carried away. }'R. W.N.ROWF.: Outrai;1:ed, r was outraged. Jl-'orning '.MR. F.B.ROWF.: Back on or front on it is the same answer, no mothers' allowance. September 13 - ''The Premier sairl that the $3.6 million saved the treasury by cancelling the mothers' allowance is being used to improve the educational programme." :t-fR. NEARY: Where? I would like to know where? MR.

F.B.ROWE: I would like to know where the $3. 6 million are in this estimate for improving the educational programme, when we have had an obvious policy of retrenchment as far as expenditures in education are concerned. "Premier Moores promised that something would be done.Mrs. Evans reminded Jl-'r. Carter.

He made this commitment when we met him in the cabinet room and presented him with the names of 5,000 mothers who signed the petition saying the prograll'dTle should be reinstated. 11'As late as yesterday, September 16, 1972, as late as yesterday it was being reviewed and we had for many reasons virtually decided to reinstate the programme for this year,' said Mr.

Moores, 'but yesterday afternoon, Thursday, I made a decision wh:1.ch even though unpopular I feel is ripht and that is that the programme will not carry on this year nor :In the future.'" Sjr, I cannot describe th:ls kind of tactic ~ithout us:lnp unparliamentary lanr-uar,e. I simply read it :Into the record to show the hypocrisy of this administrat:lon when dealinr. with the good, the common pood of the people of this province.

I would like for the honourable }flnister of F.ducation to point out a number of thinps, since the honourable minister is reponsible for the welfare of children seekinf>: a prfrnary, elementary or hiph school education in th:ls province. (1) can he point out specifically :In his est:lmates wh('TP the ~1.F, million snvNl by throuinr out the T11othen1' nl 1 ownnc-e 3 !) 12

April 6, 1973, Tape 1084, Page 4 --_apb ~orning. is being used to help education in this province? The Premier said definitely that the $3 .6 million will ~o into the educat:fon estimates. I would also like to know, Sir, what the status of that special study is."To study the requirements of the needy mothers in this province?" This new programme. !,N HON . ~FJl..:.. New progra .mm.e'l MR. F.B.POWE: No, that is the study now, the study. AN HON. ME! 'BER: Oh, the study . MR.

F.B.ROWF.: I would also like to know.from the honourable Minister of Education, what the status of this new prop,ramme is that was to be announced by the original honourable the Minister of Social Services and Rehabil1tation. So much for the mothers' allowance. Junior collev,es, Sir. I am not ouite clear on this, Mr. Chairman, but I would like to know,is there i!l a vote at all for the construction of the junior collep,e in Corner Brook during this cominp. year?

I am totally confused as a result of the statement made by the honourable the Premier and now that I look at the estimates,as to what is the status of the community college, particularly in view of some statements that have been made by the Mayor of Corner Brook. There is one thing that I cannot fathom at all and that is how the honourable the Premier can go gallivanting about this province makinp, announcements about the construction of a junior college in Corner Brook and a ~ommunity college in Stephenville without havinr, definecl a definite policy with respect to education in these particular areas.

Wh.tt is the policy of the administration with respect to junior and community colleges? I was astounded when I was doing some research on my private members' bill with respect to educational facilities in Stephenville • . For instance, there is the vocational school in Stephenville Crossing (the honourable the Chairman can correct me because he may li" a ] ittle more fami] iar with that Aren thRn T Am) but I believe ~~re is n vocntiona] school in 3913

April 6. 1973, Tape 1084, Page 5 -- apb Morning.

Stephenville Crossing, there is an adult education centre in· Stephenville, there are all kinds of extensions of the university out there in Stephenville,through E.T.V •• throu~h live courses, through the extension service and the honourable the Premier has suggested that he is goinp, to stick up a community college in the Stephenville area which will be very - not an extension to tht university, mind you,because that is going to go in Corner Brook, but it will be more like the kind of thing where you would take your vocational education and trades education and this type of a thing; when there are many areas in this province that could do with such an institution to a much greater extent than the Stephenville Area. .

I am not coming out and sayinr, that no community college should go in Stephenville. For instance, Sir, we have a task force now presently studyinp. human resource development in this province. Presumably, they will come out in August with some sort of a policy with respect to,amongst other things, the direction of post-secondary education ir, this province. community and junior 391,1

April 6, 1973 Tape 1085 Pk - 1 colleges, But before this report has come out, Sir, the Premier is going around the province caving in completely to political pressure from a certain area, did not have the guts to meet the people out there in Corner Brook without the announcement, so got up at the Chamber of Commerce meeting and announced a junior colleg~ for Corner Brook, Sir, if one looks at the map of Newfoundland one can quite easily see that probably Corner Brook is not necessarily the most reasonable place to stick a community colleges.

NlDllber one, will the Minister of Education,before he gets to location,try to indicate to the people of Newfom1dland what the policy of this administration is with respect to commm1ity and junior colleges, Will the minister define what a community college is and what a junior college is? Because, Sir, the ~ore I look at-reports from the Gander Conference, from people interested in education in this province, the more that I am convinced that we do not want extensions of this m1iversity in this province. We do not want extensions only. Now let us get this perfectly clear 1 perfectly clear. MR. CROSBIE: Try again.

MR. ROWE , F. B. I will repeat exactly what I said; we do not want only physical extc>nsions of the university in this province. We need extensions of the university, but we do not want physical buildings in Corner Brook or in Grand Falls or in Labrador or in Burin or anywhere in this province, a building which only contains only university profe~sors, university courses, university students. In order to meet the nec>ds of education in this province, we need a much broader institution, a community college, a community college which has zi university compotent built in. AN HON. MEMRER: ~. ROWF. 1 F.

B. programme. 3D15 A good programme. Well naturally that goes without saying; a good

April 6, 1973 Tape 1085 PK - 2 Now, Sir, the announcement made by the Premier contradicts that policy. The honourable the Premier says, Mr. Chairman, that there will be a junior college in Corner Brook and a community college somewhere else in Stephenville. What we need, Sir, I maintain is a community college system and I will get into that in my private members' resolution. So what I am calling for, Mr. Chairman, from the Minister of Education,is a definition of policy as far as further direction of.higher education in this province is concerned.

A specific definition of community colleges or junior college or what their policy is going to be. I cannot see for the life of me how the government can go on sticking up structures all over this province, which they are not going to do anyway, Mr. Chairman, in the coming year,but give the impression they are sticking up structures all ovl!r this province without defining what their policy is in this regard. I think it is incumbent upon the minister to say what that policy is,in this House.during the consideration of his estimates.

Sir, I went in and I looked at the map of Newfoundland and Labrador the other day and I looked at the density of population and assuming that we had a community college system developing in this province, you know what I found out? It does not take a task force or any great amount of brains to figure this out,that if we had a community collep,c system develop in this province probnhly Corner Brook ~or Grnnd Falls nor Gander nor Stephenville are the most logical places to stick up these particular institutions.

The main reason for locating a coramunity college in a particular area of this province should be accessibility on the part of the students in the various parts of our province, the accessibility of that particular institution to these students. Sir, I _found out,for instance, I mean this is just my opinion now and it obviously could or would or should not be the opinion of other people but it certainly bears consideration before the honourable 3916

April 6, 1973 Tape 1085 Pk - 3 the Premier says to the Chambe~ of.Commerce in Corner Brook,. Okay boys take it easy, you have your college here in Corner Brook, th~t satisfies my district, that satisfies Corner Brook!

Before we have these types of announcements, Sir, we should at least consider where 0 the most logical location is and if we have a community college system in this province, which I submit we should have, who is to say that Corner Brook or Grand Falls or Gander or Grand Bank or any of these places are the 1,est locations just because they are the biggest population centres7 Who is to say that people in Grand Falls could not drive to a community college outside of Grand Falls? They have perfectly good roads in the Grand Falls Area.

Probably they should be given a bit of the taste of what other people have to endure. Why should they not drive over a nice paved highway and probably one mile of a gravel road to get to a community college? Sir, in looking at the map, I came to the conclusion that probably a connnunity college in Stephenville,or Port aux Basques would be a nice location.

Why could not the people of Stephenville drive down to Port aux Basques so that the people of Rose Blanche could drive over to a community college and all those other communities along the South Coast, why should they not be able to drive over to Port aux Basques to attend a community college? What good, Sir, is a community college or a junior college in Corner Brook going to do the people on the southern half of the Great Northern Peninsula? The most logical location for a community college, Sir, on the West Coast,to serve the Great Northern Peninsula,is in a place like Deer Lake. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

ROWE, F. B. It does not really matter. Mr. Chairman, it 'WOUld not be bad to have a quorum in the honourable House while I am speaking. MR. CHAIRMAN: Would the clerk count the llouse,please. We have a quorum. 3~17

April 6, 1973 Tape 1085 PK - 4 Mr. Chainnan, the point that I am trying to make here is that before the Premier goes running around the province making announcements about structures being built some very careful consideration should be given to the location of such institutions. I gave as an example that Deer Lake seems like a very logical location for a comm.unity college so that the people of Corner Brook could drive to Deer Lake. That is not a tremendous drive.

The people of Corner Brook could drive to Deer Lake to attend classes and this would enable people up the Great Northern Peninsula for a certain distance to drive down and attend such a community college, Probably the community college should be located somewhere like Wiltondale, I do not know. Just because there is not an actual centre of population in Wiltondale does not mean that there could not be a community college there, because the main reason that you should have a community college aL any specific location is accessibility, accessibility on the part of the many people in a region.

Just because Corner Brook or Deer Lake or St. John's or Gander or Grand Falls is the centre of population is no reason why a community college should go in that area. Mr. Chairman, I looked at the Great Northern Peninsula and to the horror of my honourable leader I came to the final conclusion that a community college should go in Plum Point. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROWE, F. n. Plum Point,and this could serve the St. Anthony Area and it could serve the Roddickton Area, the Englee Arca, the Main Brook Area and it could go south and serve the area down as far as Port au Chaix, Port Saunders and Hawkes Bay.

AN IION. MEMBER: What about Brig Bay? MR. ROWE, F.B. Brjg Bay. I thfok the people of Brig Bay might support that. It is not too far away. Sir, as far as CC'ntral Nt>wfoundland is concerncd,a lo~ical location in my t>stimation would be a place likC' Lewisportc and this could sC'rvc adequatC'ly thC' Grand Falls ArC'a, thC' GandC'r Arra, the Bishop's Fnlls ArC'a, all of Nc>w World Island and all of For,o Island 3 n 1 s

April 6, 1973 Tape 1085 PK - 5 Instead of bringing all the people in off the islands, all the way into Grand Falls or Gander,why should the people of Gander not get aboard their cars and take a leisurely _little drive down to Lewisporte to attend classes. I am putting this forth, Mr. ChaiTinan, quite seriously,that before this government goes around rip, ranting and roaring about sticking up junior colleges and community colleges in Corner Brook,some very serious consideration should be given to location on an overall scheme as far as the establishment of junior colleges.

So I am hoping, Sir, that the Minister of Education will indicate what the policy of his administration is {1) respecting whether we are going to have junior colleges or community colleges and what the definition of these things are. We need the definition. And also what the flight plan of this administration is with respect to the establishment of junior colleges; (1) when and (2) where. The least that this administration can do is put that thing forth.

Now, Sir, it might be very interesting to know that if we had one-half of the present university population in Newfoundland, one-half of the present university population in Newfoundland is composed of the first two years of university. Now supposing we had a 3919

April 6, 1973 Tape 1O86(Morning) number of extensions of the university established in say six centers during the tenn of office of this administration and the majority of that one-half of the student population at the university ended up in these junior colleges or community colleges at the South Coast, the West Coast, Central Newfoundland, Labrador and what have you, the Northeast Coast, hat means that the university population of the main campus here would be cut virtually in half. That may or may not be a good thing. I am dead serious about that.

Sir, I am now goinf!; to quote from the "Financial Post" for October 29, 1972, an editorial, "A certain amount of hesitancy, "(it is called J "for all the hu~h outpouring of money into facilities for higher education - it is now .i.bundantly clear that Canada's universities are approaching zero growth. "Preliminary estimates of this year's full-time student enrollment show that the increase from last year is a bare one-half of one per cent. Final figures, available in December, are likely to reveal that even this tiny increment is no more.

Outside the Ontario and Atlantic Region, there is an absolute drop in student numbers. 11 These facts from a telephone survey of registrars of forty-three universities (with ninety per cent of Canadian student enrollment) make all the more significant a report on university dropouts released by Statistics Canada last month. It states that there is a hir,h correlation of shortfalls in expected enrollment with the dropout phenomenon. The data clearly reveal that the optimism of the 196O's has now been replaced by a certain amount of hesitancy on the part of young Canadians.• Hesitancy is hardly the word.

It is more like an exodus. ''The percentage of students in first, second or third year university JM - 1 dropping out averages 9.2 per cent nationally. It ranges from a high of more than twentv per cent in British Columbia to a low of about five per cent in Ontario. The answers are still to be analysed. Rut one overnll 3 :J 2 0

April 6, 1973 ·Tape 1086 JM - 2 result is clear: there is no single answer. The quality of university teaching and course content is cited often as a lack of financial aid, And there are positive reasons - opportunities to travel or a rewarding job offer - as well as negative ones." Now, Sir, it might be worth pointin~ out that there is a tendency now here to<,ard a reduction in the rate of growth of universities and one of the reasons is the lack of financial aid,and this has been further reinforced as a result of the Minister of Finance's budget. Sir, we are extremely fortunate in this province in one sense.

We did not have the money over the past twenty-three years to go wholesale into setting up university structures. We did not build a great enough university on our campus,as far as physical structure is concerned.

We did not have the money to set up all sorts of regional colleges or even a second university on the West Coast and, Sir, in retrospect that might be a good thing because we may find,as a result of the retrenchment policy of the present administration,a reassessment on the part of university students as to whether or not they even want to go to the university and,as a result of building branches of the universities throughout this province,we may find in three or four years time that we have a nice big campus up there with no students for it. I think this is a real possibility. MR. MURPHY: (Inaudible). MR.

ROWE(F.B.L;_ Well, that might very well be,but I think the hon. member for St. John's Centre will admit that that is not just the c.ase for Newfoundland and if it were,of course,we could qu1te easily blame it on the present administration. This is universal. This is world-wide, not just Canadian, not just North American. It is world-wide. So, Sir, the point obviously that I am tryinr, to make is that there is a great need for the hon Minister of Education to get up in this House durin~ the consideration of his estimates ') :-, C) 1 .; JI.

April 6, 1973 Tape 1086 and define specifically what the administration's policy is with regards to higher education in this province. Students' Residences: Sir, in November of last year it was stated that the provincial government hope . to be in a position to call tenders for construction of ten students' residences for Memorial University at such an early date that construction can start early in the new year, I would like the minister to indicate in JM - 3 his remarkA whether there is a vote for that specifically in his estimates or not.

Engineering school • Sir, I would like for the Minister of Education to indicate who is goinr- to service the short­ term borrowing by the university for the purpose of building the new engineering school. I would like for the minister to indicate who it 1s that is going to service the short term borrowings that the university is getting into for the specific purpose of building a new engineering school.

There was an announcement made there last August that the p,overnment was going to allow a situation where the university could r,et into short-term borrowing for the specific purpose of buildinp, an enr,ineering school and I would like to know who it is that is going to service that particular debt. I would also like if the hon. Minister of Education could give some indication as to the progress of talks on this whole business of working out a collective bargaining agreement between the Newfoundland Teachers Association and the Newfoundla,1d Government.

I do not want to jeopardize any negotiations that are r.oing on by getting into a long haranp,ue on that hut I would like the minister to give some sort of a pror,ress report.if he could,on that particular topic. Also, Mr. Chairman, in closinr, here,on this part of the debate anyway,T would like for the Minister of Education to give some indication as to what plans the present administration is makinr, with respect to the special train