Manitoba Hansard — 25 June 2013 (Sitting 64B, 40th Legislature, 2nd Session)

40-2-64b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Fortieth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Daryl Reid Speaker Vol. LXV No. 64B - 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, June 25, 2013 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Fortieth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital NDP ALLUM, James Fort Garry-Riverview NDP ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley NDP ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson NDP BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli NDP BLADY, Sharon Kirkfield Park NDP BRAUN, Erna Rossmere NDP BRIESE, Stuart Agassiz PC CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East NDP CHIEF, Kevin, Hon. Point Douglas NDP CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan NDP CROTHERS, Deanne St.

James NDP CULLEN, Cliff Spruce Woods PC DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk NDP DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood PC EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside PC EWASKO, Wayne Lac du Bonnet PC FRIESEN, Cameron Morden-Winkler PC GAUDREAU, Dave St. Norbert NDP GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Liberal GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach PC GRAYDON, Cliff Emerson PC HELWER, Reg Brandon West PC HOWARD, Jennifer, Hon. Fort Rouge NDP IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri, Hon. Fort Richmond NDP JHA, Bidhu Radisson NDP KOSTYSHYN, Ron, Hon. Swan River NDP LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. Dawson Trail NDP MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St.

Johns NDP MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden PC MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MARCELINO, Flor, Hon. Logan NDP MARCELINO, Ted Tyndall Park NDP MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel NDP MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East PC NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake NDP OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River NDP PALLISTER, Brian Fort Whyte PC PEDERSEN, Blaine Midland PC PETTERSEN, Clarence Flin Flon NDP REID, Daryl, Hon. Transcona NDP ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Kewatinook NDP RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia NDP ROWAT, Leanne Riding Mountain PC SARAN, Mohinder The Maples NDP SCHULER, Ron St. Paul PC SELBY, Erin, Hon. Southdale NDP SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St.

Boniface NDP SMOOK, Dennis La Verendrye PC STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo PC STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin NDP SWAN, Andrew, Hon. Minto NDP WHITEHEAD, Frank The Pas NDP WIEBE, Matt Concordia NDP WIGHT, Melanie Burrows NDP WISHART, Ian Portage la Prairie PC Vacant Morris

2687 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, June 25, 2013 The House met at 1:30 p.m. Mr. Speaker: Good afternoon, everyone. Please be seated. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PETITIONS Provincial Sales Tax Increase–Referendum Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Good afternoon, Mr. Speaker. I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. And these are the reasons for this petition:

(1) The provincial government promised not to raise taxes in the last election.

(2) Through Bill 20, the provincial government wants to increase the retail sales tax, known as the PST, by one point without the legally required referendum.

(3) An increase to the PST is excessive taxation that will harm Manitoba families.

(4) Bill 20 strips Manitobans of their democratic right to determine when major tax increases are necessary. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to not raise the PST without holding a provincial referendum. And, Mr. Speaker, this petition is signed by N. Unrau, E. Kis, E. Reimer and many other Manitobans. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to have been received by the House. Further petitions? Hydro Capital Development–NFAT Review Mr.

Ian Wishart (Portage la Prairie): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. And these are the reasons for this petition: Manitoba Hydro was mandated by the provincial government to commence a $21- billion capital development plan to determine uncertain electric–to service uncertain electricity export markets. In the last five years, competition from alternative energy sources is decreasing the price and demand for Manitoba's hydroelectricity and causing the financial viability of this capital plan to be questioned.

The $21- billion capital plan requires Manitoba Hydro to increase domestic electricity rates by up to 4 per cent annually for the next 20 years and possibly more if export opportunities fail to materialize. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro to create a complete and transparent needs-for-and-alternatives-to review of Manitoba Hydro's capital –total capital development plan to ensure the financial viability of Manitoba Hydro. This petition is signed by C. Remple, T. Tullman and B. Tullman and many, many more fine Manitobans.

Municipal Amalgamations–Reversal Mr. Wayne Ewasko (Lac du Bonnet): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. The background to this petition is as follows:

(1) The provincial government recently announced plans to amalgamate any municipalities with fewer than 1,000 constituents.

(2) The provincial government did not consult with or notify the affected municipalities of this decision prior to the Throne Speech announcement on November 19th, 2012, and has further imposed unrealistic deadlines.

(3) If the provincial government imposes amalgamations, local democratic representation will be drastically limited while not providing any real improvements in cost savings.

(4) Local governments are further concerned that amalgamation will fail to address the serious issues currently facing municipalities, including an absence of reliable infrastructure funding and timely 'flund' – flood compensation.

2688 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 25, 2013

(5) Municipalities deserve to be treated with respect. Any amalgamations should be voluntar y in nature and led by the municipalities themselves. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the Minister of Local Government afford local governments the respect they deserve and reverse his decision to force municipalities with fewer than a thousand constituents to amalgamate. This petition is signed by J. Giesbrecht, J. Smith, J. Carlson and many more fine Manitobans, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Blaine Pedersen (Midland): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly.

The background to this petition is as follows: The provincial government recently announced plans to amalgamate any municipalities with fewer than 1,000 constituents. The provincial government did not consult with or notify the affect ed municipalities of this decision prior to the Throne Speech announcement on November 19th, 2012, and has further imposed unrealistic deadlines. If the provincial government imposes amalgamations, local democratic representation will be drastically limited while not providing any real improvements in cost savings.

Local governments are further concerned that amalgamation will fail to address the serious issues currently facing municipalities, including an absence of reliable infrastructure funding and ti mely flood compensation. Municipalities deserve to be treated with respect. Any amalgamations should be voluntary in nature and led by the municipalities themselves. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the Minis ter of Local Government afford local governments the respect they deserve and reverse his decision to force municipalities with fewer than 1,000 constituents to amalgamate.

And this petition is signed by T. Sugu, S. Kernaghan, A. McGregor and many more f ine Manitobans. Provincial Sales Tax Increase–Referendum Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. And these are the reasons for this petition: The provincial government promised not to raise taxes in the last election. Through Bill 20, the provincial government wants to increase the retail sales tax, known as the PST, by one point without the legally required referendum. An increase to the PST is excessive taxation that will harm Manitoba families.

Bill 20 strips Manitobans of their democratic right to determine when major tax increases are necessary. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to not raise the PST without holding a provincial referendum. And this is signed by B. Lavallee, H. Tonet, D.A. Buffie and many others, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Cliff Cullen ( Spruce Woods): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the foll owing petition to the Legislative Assembly. These are the reasons for this petition: The provincial government promised not to raise taxes in the last election.

Through Bill 20, the provincial government wants to increase the retail sales tax, known as the PST, by one point without the legally required referendum. An increase to the PST is excessive taxation that will harm Manitoba families. Bill 20 strips Manitobans of their democratic right to determine when major tax increases are necessary. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to not raise the PST without holding a provincial referendum. This petition is signed by J. Kelley, K. Noel, A. Koop and many other fine Manitobans.

June 25, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2689 Mr. Ralph Eich ler (Lakeside): Good afternoon, Mr. Speaker. I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: The provincial government promised not to raise taxes in the last election. Through Bill 20, the provincial government wants to increase the retail sales tax, known as the PST, by one point without the legally required referendum. An increase to the PST is excessive taxation that will harm Manitoba families.

Bill 20 strips Manitobans of their democratic right to determine when major tax increases are necessary. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to not raise the PST without holding a provincial referendum. This petition is s igned on behalf of G. Shedden, C. Gauthier, T. Jackiewicz- Gauthier and many other fine Manitobans. Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. And these are the reasons for this petition:

(1) Th e provincial government promised not to raise taxes in the last election.

(2) Through Bill 20, the provincial government wants to increase the retail sales tax, known as the PST, by one point without the legally required referendum.

(3) An increase to the PST is excessive taxation that will harm Manitoba families.

(4) Bill 20 strips Manitobans of their democratic right to determine when major tax increases are necessary. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provinc ial government to not raise the PST without holding a provincial referendum. And, Mr. Speaker, this petition is signed by B. Kelly, A. Freig, C. Shore and many, many other Manitobans. Municipal Amalgamations–Reversal Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur- Virden): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.

And these are the reasons for this petition: * (13:40) In fact, the –(1) the provincial government recently announced plans to amalgamate any municipalities with fewer than a thousand constituents.

(2) The provincial government did not consult with or notify the affected municipalities of this decision prior to the Throne Speech announcement on November the 19th, 2012, and has further imposed unrealistic deadlines.

(3) If the provincial government imposes amalgamations, local democratic representation will be drastically limited while not providing any real improvements in cost savings.

(4) Local governments are further concerned that amalgamation will fail to address the serious issues currently facing municipalities, including an absence of reliable infrastructure funding and timely flood compensation.

(5) Municipalities deserve to be treated with respect. Any amalgamations should be voluntary in nature and led by the municipalities themselves. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the Minister of Local Government afford local governments the respect they deserve and reverse his decision to force municipalities with f ewer than a thousand constituents to amalgamate. Mr. Speaker, this petition is signed by V. Ritchie, D. Ritchie, A. Wicker and many, many other Manitobans. Provincial Trunk Highways 16 and 5 North– Traffic Signals Mr. Stuart Briese (Agassiz): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: The junction of PTH 16 and PTH 5 north is an increasingly busy intersection which is used by motorists and pedestrians alike.

2690 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 25, 2013 The Town of Neepawa has raised concerns with the Highway Traffic Board about safety levels at this intersection. The Town of Neepawa has also passed a resolution requesting that Manitoba Infrastructure and Transportation install traffic lights at this intersection in order to increase safety.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation to consider making the installation of traffic lights at the intersection of PTH 16, PTH 5 north a priority project in order to help protect the safety of the motorists and pedestrians who use it. This petition is signed by D. Kasprick, L. McKay, R. Monkman and many, many other fine Manitobans. Provincial Sales Tax Increase–Referendum Mrs. Bonn ie Mitchelson (River East): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly.

And these are the reasons for this petition: The provincial government promised not to raise taxes in the last election. Through Bill 20, the provincial government wants to increase the retail sales tax, known as the PST, by one point without the legally required referendum. An increase in the PST is excessive taxation that will harm Manitoba families. Bill 20 strips Manitobans of their democratic right to determine when major tax increases are necessary. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to not raise the PST without holding a provincial referendum.

And this petition is signed by T. Gulka, E. Clark, L. Wiens and thousands of other Manitobans. Mr. Reg Helwer (Brandon West): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition:

(1) The provincial government promised not to raise taxes in the last election.

(2) Through Bill 20, the provincial government wants to increase the retail sales tax, known as the PST, by one point without the legally required referendum.

(3) An increase to the PST is excessive taxation that will harm Manitoba families.

(4) Bill 20 strips Manitobans of their democratic right to determine when major tax increases are necessary. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to not raise the PST without holding a provincial referendum. Signed by R. Bell, G. Gelmych and H. Gelmych and many other Manitobans. Mr. Ron Schuler (St. Paul): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. And these are the reasons for this petition:

(1) The provincial government promised not to raise taxes in the last election.

(2) Through Bill 20, the provincial government wants to increase the retail sales tax, known as the PST, by one point without the legally required referendum.

(3) An increase to the PST is excessive taxation that will harm Manitoba families.

(4) Bill 20 strips Manitobans of their democratic right to determine when major tax increases are necessary. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to not raise the PST without holding a provincial referendum. This is signed by M. Penner, D. Harris, R. Penner and many, many other Manitobans. Mr. Dennis Smook (La Verendrye) : I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. These are the reasons for this petition:

(1) The provincial government promised not to raise taxes in the last election.

(2) Through Bill 20, the provincial government wants to increase the retail sales tax, known as the

June 25, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2691 PST, by one point without the legally required referendum.

(3) An increase to the PST is excessive taxation that will harm Manitoba families.

(4) Bill 20 strips Manitobans of their democratic right to determine when major tax increases are necessary. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government not to raise the PST without holding a provincial referendum. This petition is signed by L. Lyng, V. Bender, F. Faucher and many more fine Manitobans. Mr. Cameron Friesen (Morden -Winkler): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. And these are the reasons for this petition:

(1) The provincial government promised not to raise taxes in the last election.

(2) Through Bill 20, the provincial government wants to increase the retail sales tax, known as the PST, by one point without the legally required referendum.

(3) An increase to the PST is excessive taxation that will harm Manitoba families.

(4) Bill 20 strips M anitobans of their democratic right to determine when major tax increases are necessary. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to not raise the PST without holding a provincial referendum. And th is petition is signed by P. Hiebert, S. Beattle, J. Mulligan and many, many others. Municipal Amalgamations–Reversal Mr. Cliff Graydon (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. And this is the background to this petition: The provincial government recently announced plans to amalgamate any municipalities with fewer than a thousand constituents.

(2) The provincial government did not consult with or notify the affected municipal ities of this decision prior to the Throne Speech announced on November 19th, 2012, and has further imposed unrealistic deadlines.

(3) If the provincial government imposes amalgamations, local democratic representation will be drastically limited while no t providing any real improvements or cost savings.

(4) Local governments are further concerned that amalgamation will fail to address the serious issues currently facing municipalities, including an absence of reliable infrastructure funding and timely fl ood compensation.

(5) Municipalities deserve to be treated with respect. Any amalgamations should be voluntary in nature and led by the municipalities themselves. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the Minister of Local Government afford local governments the respect they deserve and reverse this –his decision to force municipalities with fewer than a thousand constituents to amalgamate. And this petition is signed by M. Magee, B. Sudermann, D. Peck and many, ma ny more fine Manitobans. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon.

Christine Melnick (Minister of Immigration and Multiculturalism ): I am pleased to table the 2013-14 Estimates for the Department of Immigration and Multiculturalism. Hon. Kevin Chief (Minister of Children and Youth Opportunities): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review, 2013- 2014 Departmental Expenditure Estimates for the Department of Children and Youth Opportunities. * (13:50) Mr. Speaker: And I also have a report to table. In compliance with

section 4 of the Members' Salaries, Allowances and Retirement Plans Disclosure Regulation, I am pleased to table the reports of amounts claimed and paid for members for the 2012-2013 fiscal year. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to oral questions, I'd like to draw the attention of honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us from Winnipeg Beach

2692 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 25, 2013 School 26 grade 7 students under the direction of Jason Gibson. This group is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Entrepreneurship, Training and Trade (Mr. Bjornson). And also seated in the public gallery, we have with us today Maclean Boyd, Laura Boyd, who are the brother and sister of our page Connor Boyd and also the guests of the honourable Minister of Health (Ms. Oswald). On behalf of all honourable members, we welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Morris By-Election Government Timeline Mr.

Brian Pallister (Leader of the Official Opposition): And how about that Jonatha n Toews, Mr. Speaker? Webster's defines self -serving as serving one's own interests while disregarding the truth or the interests of others. In the last several months we –and we expect for months to come–the government has paraded around doing ribbon cuttings while Manitobans have watched. This self -promotional tour is being funded by Manitoba families, and it's a billion -dollar self-serving exercise, Mr. Speaker, designed to create the false impression that the government actually has a plan.

But it d oesn't, apart from just the self-promotional tour itself. Will the Premier admit that the real reason that he won't call the Morris by -election is simply that it will interrupt his ribbon-cutting tour? Hon. Greg Selinger (Premier): Mr. Speaker, when we were building the one -in-700-year protection for the floodway around Winnipeg, the Leader of the Opposition said it should be halted in its tracks. That floodway has served us extremely well in the 2011 flood. It has protected all of Winnipeggers. It's protecting Winnipeggers again this year.

What we are doing is we are making long- term investments to have safer communities in Manitoba, better educated young people, schools, personal care homes, the kinds of things that will grow the economy, ensure Manit obans live safely and securely. That's what we're announcing, Mr. Speaker, a good vision for the future of Manitoba. Mr. Pallister: Just a self -serving promotional tour, Mr. Speaker, while disregarding the interests of others. The constituents of Morris, the Premier says, can wait so that he can continue with his self-promotional tour at their expense.

The Election Financing Act says that during by-elections the government must not advertise any info about its programs or activities. So the Premier had a choice to make and he's had that choice to make for some time: respect the democratic rights of Manitobans or promote the spenDP agenda; respect Morris voters or advertise Hydro expansion; respect Morris voters or announce old projects again; or respect Morris voters or do promotional advertisements for the budget which fail to mention the broken-promise PST hike at all, Mr. Speaker.

When will the Premier set aside his self -serving agenda, show some respect for the voters of Morris and call a by-election? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, we showed respect for the people of Morris when we challenged the members opposite to get out of the diversion so that the waters would not flood the people in the Morris constituency and Cartier and in Headingley, and we had to get an injunction to ensure that that was done. The greatest risk to the people of Morris are the Progressive Conservative members sitting on this side of the House.

They were willing to put the people in that area at risk of their community flooding t o make a protest point in the diversion. That's unacceptable. Mr. Pallister: I'll just explain to the Premier that Morris is in the Red River basin and the diversion's in the Assiniboine River basin. This Premier is not about serving the people of Manitoba. He's about serving himself. The Finance Minister ignores the laws of the Province, and the Premier says, oh, let's draft a retroactive exemption and get you off the hook.

The government ignores flood prevention for 13 years, and then the Premier say s, let's sell Manitobans on jacking up the PST and say it's for flood prevention. This spenDP Premier criss- crosses the city and the province in the 2011 election, promising everyone he won't raise taxes and then lowers the boom in the last two budgets, and now he says Manitobans don't have the right to vote because he's got a mandate. Well, it's a counterfeit mandate, Mr. Speaker, gotten under false preten ces, gotten by a

June 25, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2693 self-serving candidate and a self -serving member of the Legislature. Will the Prem ier finally admit that the real reason the people of Morris and the people of Manitoba don't get to vote is because he's too busy on a self-promotional tour to call a by-election? Mr. Selinger: Mr.

Speaker, the member opposite needs to know that the const ituency of Morris includes the communities of Cartier and Headingley which were put at risk by his lack of leadership and his desire to have his MLAs in the diversion channel, which would not have allowed the diversion to operate safely, which puts the com munities of Cartier and Headingley at risk. There's probably another reason why we should take more time to call the by -election, so the Leader of Opposition could inspect the map and understands which communities are at risk by his horrible decision making, Mr. Speaker.

Greenhouse Gas Emissions Government Targets Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur- Virden): Mr. Speaker, the NDP have failed again to meet their own promise to reduce greenhouse gas emissions to 6 per cent below 1990 levels. In 2008 their own former leader, Gary Doer, spoke up and said that his NDP government didn't deserve to be re -elected if they didn't meet the target. He even said it should be 18 per cent below 1990 levels, not just 6.

Now, the minister of greenhouse gas emissions confirms that h is government, his own NDP government, failure to meet their own emission targets and blames the federal government for his government not being able to do enough. Why is he blaming others for breaking his spenDP government's own promise to Manitobans, Mr. Speaker? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Conservation and Water Stewardship): Mr. Speaker, historically, it's been recognized that greenhouse gas emissions are tied to population plus economic growth.

And it's my duty to report to the House that from 2000 to 2011 the population of Manitoba grew almost 10 per cent, the economy grew 78 per cent and I'm pleased to report that greenhouse gas emissions are down 7 per cent. Mr. Maguire: Well, Mr. Speaker, I guess he wasn't judging in 1990 that he'd have any economic growth in the province because he made the rules. Mr. Speaker, this government, this NDP government, was so confident they could meet their Kyoto targets, they enshrined them into law in The Climate Change and Emissions Reductions Act in 2008.

However, Manitobans now know that they will not meet their NDP target. This is just another promise and another law that this government has broken. The NDP government was mandated by their own law to bring greenhouse gas emissions down to 17,200 kilotonnes by 2012, and they failed. In fact, they're still 14 per cent higher than those 1990 levels, Mr. Speaker. Can the minister explain why he's chosen to break his own NDP government's law? Mr. Mackintosh: Well, Mr. Speaker, somebody in this House was in office in 1990 and it wasn't this side. Greenhouse gas emissions were going up, Mr. Speaker.

When the new administration came in, they went down by 7 per cent. And, in fact, the legislated targets for 2010 were met. They were met by this government, no tha nks–no thanks –to what we thought was a friend in Ottawa that was going to work with the provinces to make sure that we had a national approach for reducing greenhouse gas emissions. Manitoba, since 2000, has reduced greenhouse gas emissions more than any other province in the West. Ours are going down 7 per cent. Members opposite love Saskatchewan; it went up 11 per cent. Mr. Maguire: Well, Mr.

Speaker, he's still blaming others, and his greenhouse gas emissions have gone up 15 per cent. Mr. Speaker, in April 2008 the member for Assiniboia (Mr. Rondeau) stated, Manitoba's overall greenhouse gas emissions are low but could be lower still. We're committed to working with all Manitobans to meet our emission targets and to build a greener economy. But, in June of that same year, the same member said, we're committed to meet and exceed Kyoto, but he's 15 per cent higher today.

The NDP have now thrown aside their own targets, announced last week, and the laws of Manitoba, where they were enshrined, and replace d them with nothing, Mr. Speaker. Why should Manitobans believe that this minister and –is at all credible in regards to this environmental file?

2694 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 25, 2013 Mr. Mackintosh: So, Mr. Speaker, Manitoba now has Canada's lowest energy emissions of all the provinces, I understand. And we've seen some very aggressive action by the Province which, of course, results in a 7 per cent reduction in greenhouse gas emissions since we came into office. * (14:00) Now, I know the members opposite–you know, I don't know. They're sham eless. They get up – imagine that, Conservatives concerned–profess to be concerned about climate change. This is good. I'm really glad there's Hansard.

I want to keep this and take it home because I know the members opposite, they're also going to get up soon and they're going to say, we love coal. We love the word clinker. We love the 'worl' –the word coalbin. We love a coal chute. Let's keep the clinkers going in Manitoba. That's what their refrain's going to be. We say, let's keep growing the– Mr. Speak er: Order, please. Minister's time has expired. Domestic Violence Prevention Mr. Reg Helwer (Brandon West): Well, at–that's pretty rich, Mr. Speaker, coming from a government that has one of the worst records on the environment in Canada.

Now, Manitoba does continue to be a leader in a dubious area –and that reported family violence continues to be a large problem under this NDP government, almost 20 per cent of all police-reported violent crime. The minister continues to make announcements and have press conferences, but Manitobans, especially children and women, continue to be at risk. When will this Minister of Justice (Mr. Swan) concede that there is a problem and protect Manitoba women and children? Hon. Jennifer Howard (Minister of Family Services and Labour): I want to thank the member for the question.

Certainly, violence against women is something that we are all concerned about. Recently, we put out a long- term strategy, the first ever in Manitoba. We put out a five -year strategy to address issues like prevention of violence, issues like better ways to deal with offenders and supports for victims. A big part of that effort is to talk to and engage men and young men and boys in the effort to combat violence against women. We know, long term, the only way that we're going to end violence against women is if we have men of good conscience standing up to men who abuse women and telling them enough is enough.

Mr. Helwer: Well, Mr. Speaker, yet another announcement, yet another strategy to try to deal with domestic violence, and yet they have yet to find a solution. Mr. Speaker, why is this 'minner' –minister in Justice unable to provide protection from domestic violence for Manitoba women and children? Ms. Howard: Well, Mr. Speaker, I will never apologize for continuing to try to prevent violence against women. I won't apologize for that.

When we look at the report that the member is referencing–and it is true that Manitoba continues to have too many incidents of violence against women and children–but when you look at many of the indicators, the overview of family violence, we see that Manitoba's rate has gone down since 2010. Violence against intimate partners, we see that Manitoba has gone down since 2010. Violence against children and youth, you see that Manitoba's rate has gone down since 2010. Family violence against seniors, you see that Manitoba has gone down since 2010. But we don't take comfort from those numbers.

We know that we have much more work to do. That's why, in this budget alone, we have put another half a million dollars in place to support the domestic violence strategy, a budget that members have already voted against, Mr. Speaker– Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Helwer: Well, Mr. Speaker, this NDP government is big on promises but short on delivery. They promise they will not raise taxes, and then what happens? They bring in the PST increase. More NDP broken promises and lies. Mr. Speaker, Manitobans can't trust this government: Why should they believe anything they say when it comes to domestic violence prevention?

Ms. Howard: Well, Mr. Speaker, you know, in my past life I worked with women, especially women who are coming out of abusive situations and rebuilding their lives, and a big barrier for a lot of those women was having an adequate income. And those years when I was working with those women, the Leader of the Opposition was sitting

June 25, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2695 around the Cabinet table, and what was he doing to support those women? He was cutting their welfare payments. He was putting in place a welfare snitch line, and he was clawing back the Universal Child Care Benefit, Mr. Speaker. We know that women can't leave abusive situations if they don't have money to build their own lives. And that is the policy of the members opposite. Food Bank Usage Government Policy Mr. Ian Wishart (Portage la Prairie): Mr.

Speaker, yesterday, Winnipeg Harvest issued their annual report card on Goal 2020, a plan to reduce the number of people using food banks by half. We know that the number of people needing to use food banks is increasing, and we know that the No. 1 determinate of food bank usage is income level. I will give the minister the same opportunity I did yesterday: Will she admit that the policies of her–of this government have forced more Manitobans to resort to using food banks? Hon.

Kerri Irvin -Ross (Minister of Housing and Community Development ): I hope the member listens this time to the answer that I'm going to provide about our policies and about what we're doing to support Manitoba families. I have a story to tell, and maybe that will get through to him. Two hundred people come and work at Manitoba Housing, people that haven't been employed before. Over the last two years they have rebuilt our housing units, and guess what? They're employed full time, supporting their families, supporting their communities.

Forty -five of those individuals, those men and women, have been hired by the private sector or in apprenticeship program. That is success. We have some more work to do and we are committed to doing that with all of our policies regarding employment and education. Mr. Wishart: Mr. Speaker, the facts actually speak for themselves. Nearly three times the number of people in Manitoba use a food bank compared to our neighbours in Saskatchewan. People on employment and income assistance comprise 52 per cent of the food bank users; 25 per cent of the households assisted by food banks are single -parent families.

The minister cannot deny the numbers. When will she admit that the policies of this government are forcing more Manitobans to the food bank? Ms. Irvin -Ross: I can assure you, since 1999 this government has taken the issue of poverty very seriously. That's why we rolled back the National Child Benefit, for when they took it away from families, we put $48 million back in their pockets. We've continued to increase minimum wage up to 71 per cent; that is making a difference. But we're not stopping there.

We are continuing to provide employment opportunities, education opportunities and those family supports that need to happen for families such as child care. With our policies we're making a difference. We're seeing a reduction in poverty. We have more work to do, and we're committed to that. Mr. Wishart: Maybe that's why they haven't changed the housing allowance since 1992. Mr. Speaker, we know that the spirit of Manitobans is inalienable and the work of the volunteers of Winnipeg Harvest is no exception, as the report card notes. The report card noted four out of four on the area of volunteerism.

Perhaps this is an area that the government could attempt to emulate. Mr. Speaker, improving income levels leads to better health, better economic participation, lower health and social services costs. I ask the minister again: When will this government take action to support Manitobans who need the support the most? Ms. Irvin -Ross: We have take act –we have taken action every day since 1999, not alone, with our partners in the community, the non -profit organizations which are the heartbeat of this province. We continue to work with them to support families.

We are, by improving policies such as minimum wage increasement every year to support – better support families, making sure that we're roll– we rolled back the National Child Benefit, make sure that we are building more housing units. We made a commitment in Budget 2013 for 500 more affordable–500 more social housing units, and we're taking it one step further. We're hiring people locally, supporting local businesses and we're making a difference every day. We have more work to do and we are committed to that.

2696 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 25, 2013 Physician Shortage Rural Manitoba Communities Mr. Cameron Friesen (Morden -Winkler): Mr. Speaker, physician shortages are reaching a crisis point in rural Manitoba communities. There are more and more doctor shortages in places like Vita and Lac du Bonnet and Teulon and Altona. In the Southern RHA region right now there are between 15 and 20 physician shortages. There are communities threatening to go it alone and get their own doctors because this minister's recruitment strategies have been so ineffective. Mr.

Speaker, how long and how much longer is this minister content to sit back and watch the situation deteriorate? Hon. T heresa Oswald (Minister of Health): I thank the member for the question because I know that it is our goal to provide a family doctor for all Manitobans with a very aggressive target of 2015. I certainly can inform the member –we had some discussion about this in Estimates. I can inform the member that for some communities in Manitoba –in the year 2000 in Brandon there were 97 doctors, in 2012 there were 135. In the community of Winkler in 2000 there were 21 doctors, Mr.

Speaker, today there are 39; Thompson, 32 then, 39 now; M orden, 10 then, 18 now. Do we have more work to do? Sure. Are we going to cut the spaces in medical school? No, we aren't. * (14:10) Rural Medical Residencies International Graduates Mr. Cameron Friesen (Morden -Winkler): Mr. Speaker, the minister knows that 1,800 doctors have left Manitoba since 2000. Does she have more work to do? You bet. Mr. Speaker, today, Laureen–Lorraine Dooley joins us in the public gallery. Lorraine is a rural Manitoban who went to medical school in Ireland. She graduated this spring.

She returned home in hopes of doing a medical residency in rural Manitoba where she wants to practise. But Lorraine was not given a residency. What does this minister have to say to international medical grads like Lorraine who come from Manitoba, are trying to return to Manitoba, want to set up rural practice in Manitoba, but they can't get their foot in the door? Hon. T heresa Oswald (Minister of Health): Certainly, I can tell the member that we know that bringing more doctors to the front line involves being sure that we can educate more at home, not cutting 15 medical spaces but, indeed, increasing to 110.

We also know, Mr. Speaker, that we want to provide as many grants as possible for internationally educated graduates to do bridge training and, indeed, to gain employment to have conditional licensure to full licensure. We know we are increasing our medical residencies just announced in this budget that they voted against. We're going to work to increase even mo re, and we know that our medical professionals, the Canadian residency matching service, the faculty of medicine , make decisions about who should get a residency and who should not.

I'm sure the member isn't suggesting that politicians should interfere with that. Mr. Friesen: Mr. Speaker, the minister is so quick to say she doesn't have a role in this and yet she knows she has a role; she admitted it. Only a few weeks ago she said she'd have the faculty take a second look at a similar situation, and in a 2 009 news release, she cites $90,000 in funding to repatriate Manitoba medical students studying abroad. Clearly, the minister is in a position to play a role to help repatriate Manitoba international medical graduates. What's clear is that she's just playing her role very poorly. Mr.

Speaker, we can all understand that Manitoba doctors are far more likely than anyone else to put down roots in Manitoba no matter where they graduated. Will the minister admit today that she has to do far more to ensure that i nternational medical graduates like Lorraine Dooley get a fair shot at available resident spots here in Manitoba? Ms. Oswald: I would humbly submit that the member opposite is making my point: more money for residencies, more money to encourage international graduates, more money to repatriate our Canadian-born students training abroad. But, Mr.

Speaker–and I must be explicitly clear for the member–the evaluation of competencies, of appropriateness for assigning most residencies must lay with medical profe ssionals. Certainly , the member opposite is not suggesting that I should pull somebody out of the hat and say they can have a residency over somebody else, because that would be wholly inappropriate and it would be medically inappropriate, and the member opposite still doesn't get it, despite my repeated efforts to explain this to him.

June 25, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2697 Emergency Room (Vita) Reopening Mr. Dennis Smook (La Verendrye): On June 5th in this House, in response to a question I asked about the closure of the emergency room in Vita , the Minister of Health said, and I quote: t he regional health authority is working hard to recruit and retain doctors in Vita. The problem is that the emergency room in Vita is still closed. Again, I would give this minister the opportunity to tell this House: When will the emergency room in Vita reopen? Hon. T heresa Oswald (Minister of Health): I thank the member for the question.

We had an opportunity to speak on this subject just a couple of days ago in Estimates, but I will refresh the member's memory and let him know that the regional health authority is very aggressively and actively working to recruit doctors to go to the Vita community. Certainly, I was able to inform him that the regi onal health authority has been fortunate in working to secure a nurse practitioner. They're working with the community to develop innovative models, to develop more care. But, Mr. Speaker, that work is ongoing.

One of the things we do know is, in fact, t hat you don't acquire more doctors by cutting spaces in medical school, which are the policies of members opposite. Mr. Smook: The CEO of the Southern RHA, Kathy McPhail, was quoted as saying: Unfortunately, the RHA isn't making any progress in trying to fill the ER vacancies. To date, we know that there's a critical shortage The reeve of the rural municipality of Stuartburn is with us in the gallery today. Can the Minister of Health tell the reeve and the citizens of southeastern Manitoba when the emergency room in Vita will reopen? Ms.

Oswald: And again I will reiterate for the member and for individuals in the gallery, that the Southern Regional Health Authority is working very aggressively to recruit doctors. They have not yet secured licensed doctors to work in that community, but that work is going to continue, Mr. Speaker –that work is going to continue in partnership with the community, to acquire more. We know that in Manitoba, Mr. Speaker, that we have, net, 500 more doctors than when members were in opposite. They like to be cheeky and talk about doctors who have left. They never speak about the number of doctors who have come.

We're net increased over 500. We want to get more of those to Vita, absolutely. And to answer the member's question, the ER will open when a doctor is available, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Smook: On June 5th in the House, in response to another question, I asked the minister about the closure of emergency room in Vita. The Minister of Health said, and I quote: The regional health authority, of course, is working with the facility of medicine in establishing opportunities for doctors to go there and train there. The Minister of Health says there are 471 new doctors in Manitoba since they came to power.

Where are these new doctors? They are clearly not in southeastern Manitoba. Ms. Oswald: Indeed, we are working with the faculty of medicine. We are working with our regional health authority and communities to bring more doctors. I'll continue, Mr. Speaker –in 2000 there were seven physicians in Swan River; today there are 10 physicians in Swan River. In Portage, when we started in 2000, there were 16 doctors; today there are 26 doctors. Across Manitoba we are seeing net increases of doctors. We do know that there are communities where we haven't got the full complement of doctors for emergency room reopening.

We are working hard on that, Mr. Speaker. But I would suggest to you, that complement isn't going to get any better under two -tier, American-style health care that the Leader of the Opposition wants. Assiniboine River Dike System Maintenance Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, on this sixth day of our emergency sitting, the recent flooding in Alberta and Manitoba has highlighted the need for better flood preparedness. The–during the 2011 flood, it was apparent that the Assiniboine River dikes from Portage to Elie had been mismanaged by this government, as, indeed, the Lake Manitoba L ake St.

Martin Regulation Review Committee said, and I quote: More water had to be diverted to Lake Manitoba in 2011 than would have been required if the dikes had been maintained.

2698 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 25, 2013 I ask the Premier: Why did this government fail to maintain the Assiniboine River dikes between 1999 and 2010? Hon. Greg Selinger (Premier): There were very significant investments made in the dikes in the – starting in January of 2011, and in run up to the spring. There was very significant investments made there, as well as ad ditional work done in the –as well as the additional work done in the community of Brandon, Mr. Speaker. And that commitment is actually continuing today. These dikes are being reinforced as we speak today.

And unlike the members opposite, we are committed to strengthening flood protection throughout the entire Assiniboine valley, up through Lake Manitoba, Lake St. Martin. We're going to make the emergency channel, that was built in record time in 2011, permanent. We're going to have a new outlet from Lake St. Martin. We've made a $250 -million commitment to do that, and the member from River Heights has voted against that commitment, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Gerrard: In 1996, the provincial government took over full administration and control of the Assiniboine River dike system, and, indeed, received $4.5 million at the time to ensure that the dikes were kept at at least a 22,500 -cubic-feet-per-second level so that that amount could pass down the Assiniboine River. Because the NDP government failed to do this between '99 and 2010, there was a cost of many millions more to do this in an emergency response in the spring of summer of 2011. * (14:20) It's in the very nature of the Assiniboine River that it changes a lot from year to year.

Will the government commit today that it will never again forgo the annual maintenance along this critical

section of the Assiniboine River? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, not only do we have a commitment to invest in new infrastructure along the Assiniboine valley, Brandon, all the way through the Assiniboine River up through Lake St. Martin and Lake Manitoba, unprecedented commitment . Obviously, that infrastructure needs to be monitored on a regular basis. It needs to be maintained. That's part of an overall commitment to protecting Manitobas, the things that come for Manitoba families.

I know the billion dollars we spent on the Red River during the first decade of this millennium ; we spent a billion dollars lifting up homes, putting ring dikes around communities, building the floodway to a one-in-700-year protection around the city of Winnipeg. Those investments made a gigantic difference in 2009. They made a gigantic, even greater difference in 2011. They've made a difference this spring, and we will continue to make those investments to keep Manitobans safe. In 1950 a hundred thousand people were evacuated from their homes. In the 2009 event in the Red River Valley, about 2,800 people.

That's a gigantic improvement, Mr. Speaker. LiDAR Mapping Assiniboine River Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, in order to better manage the water flow and, in particular, the site of any water overflow outlet along this

section of the Assiniboine River, LiDAR mapping, using lasers, is essential, and yet to date complete LiDAR mapping of this part of the Assiniboine River has not been done. I ask the Premier: Since LiDAR mapping is an essential component of good engineering and planning for this part of the Assiniboine River basin, when will it be completed? Hon. Greg Selinger (Premier): It is a good question, Mr. Speaker. One of the things I noticed in 2011 is we would benefit by im mediately 'avateable'–available topographical information.

LiDAR mapping is a part of that, and that is the kinds of measures that we need to continue to invest in. In order to invest in those things , you need to have adequate resources. Those resources will allow us to protect health care and education while investing in flood infrastructure and flood technology. We've increased the number of flood forecasters in Manitoba. We've increased the number of monitoring stations in Manitoba.

We've done additional LiDAR mapping in areas that are at risk, and we will continue to do those things that allow us to be as prepared as possible to mitigate floods in the future in Manitoba. It will save an enormous a mount of expenditure. The billion dollars we spent in the Red River Valley has saved $30 billion of damage. I was pleased to see the federal government wanted to enter into a 50- 50 disaster mitigation program. We made those investments, and ahead of

June 25, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2699 that program, we look forward to some recoveries on it now. Northwest Winnipeg Roads Infrastructure Investments Ms. Sharon Blady (Kirkfield Park): Monsieur le Président, il devie nt évident que l'été s'établit av ec force à Winnipeg, finalement. Translation Mr. Speaker, it appears that summer is finally arriving in Winnipeg with a vengeance. English We're seeing among the signs of summer high school grads, lineups at the food trucks downtown, the lights of fair rides in our communities and kids enjoying numerous new splash pads.

We're also noticing many orange pylons along the road again, signs that construction season is back in full swing. So, with so much construction going on, being announced, it's sometimes hard for us to make note of all the projects happening in our communities. And in hopes of a more concrete understanding of how the government is implementing our Building and Renewal Plan as set out in the budget, I'd like to ask the member–the Minister of Local Government if there are any speci fic projects that he could tell us about happening in the city of Winnipeg. Hon.

Ron Lemieux (Minister of Local Government): Why, yes, there is. Merci à la d éputée de Kirkfield Park pour la bonne question. Translation I would like to thank the member for Kirkfield Park for the good question. English I know as a member of Winnipeg, as an MLA for Winnipeg, she's very concerned about the highways and roads in Winnipeg, and we were pleased to join the Premier (Mr. Selinger) making the $8.3-million announcement today. I also joined with the MLA for Kirkfield Park ; Tyndall Park, St. Johns and Maples were also there, Mr. Speaker.

It's truly –this budget of 2013 doubles the Province's investment in Winnipeg residential streets, Mr. Speaker. And this is something like streets like Allard Avenue, Red Robin avenue and Place, these projects are truly important not only because of the infrastructure improving the roads, but also the jobs that it creates, the jobs that are really needed in Manitoba. And we know that by virtue of this investment in the city of Winnipeg, this, over a period of time, this budget that we have provided, Budget 2013– Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The minister's time has expired.

Farmland Education Tax Election Promise Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): During the last election campaign, this NDP government promised to eliminate farmland education taxes if they get re-elected. Well, here we are two years later. This NDP government once again did a flip-flop. Mr. Speaker, I ask the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Kostyshyn) why he allowed his NDP government to lie to Manitoba families. Hon.

Stan Struthers (Minister of Finance ): Well, whether it's farmers in this province, whether it's seniors in this province, whether it's businesses small, medium or large, I'll put our commitment to tax rebates up any time against members opposite. I'll put up against not just our commitment to Manitobans on that, but I'll put up our actions over 14 years of providing tax relief to Manitobans, whether they live on farms, Mr. Speaker, or the seniors or businesses. We have no apologies to make to members opposite on that score. Mr.

Eichler: This is the same minister that promised multi-year compensation and reneged on that commitment as well, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Spea ker, our farm families took this NDP government at their word. Clearly, this government cannot be trusted. Mr. Speaker, I ask the Minister of Agriculture once again why his government took advantage of Manitoba farm families. Mr. Struthers: Mr. Speaker, it may be that the farm community is most dependent on infrastructure investments of any other sector in Manitoba. Our government has taken on that challenge.

We have invested in roads and bridges that benefit the farm communities and benefits our economies. Mr. Speaker, you know what the member for Fort Whyte (Mr. Pallister) did when he was a member of the Filmon government? They raised gas taxes and dropped their support for infrastructure.

2700 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 25, 2013 Mr. Eichler: This government has no credibility, Mr. Speaker. O bviously, the NDP cannot keep its word. The First Minister promised the removal of education taxes off farmland and promised not to increase the PST. They have no credibility. Mr. Speaker, I ask the minister from St. Boniface, First Minister, whether he w ill stand up and apologize to farm families and every person in Manitoba for misleading them just to get re-elected. Mr. Struthers: Mr.

Speaker, for a number of years now we have said to the farm families of Manitoba that every nickel from the gas tax, th rough the gas accountability act, every nickel of that money was going back into infrastructure, roads and bridges in specific, and every year we have come through on that commitment and every year that has benefited the Manitoba farmer. Manitoba farmers k now that they can count on us, they can count on this government, that when we say that money to–for gas tax is going to benefit them, it will.

But we do know from the 1990s, when the member for Fort Whyte had his chance, he bumped up gas taxes and he decreased the amount of money going into infrastructure. That says a lot, Mr. Speaker. PST Increase Impact on Recreational Facilities Mr. Cliff Graydon (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, recreation activities are the backbone of small communities. Volunteers donate t ime and energy to ensure that these activities continue at a minimal cost. The communities of Arborg and Bifrost have had their costs skyrocket thanks to the spenDP. A 14 per cent increase in the PST equals almost $17,000 more in costs this year alone.

Mr. Speaker, why is the spenDP trying to shut down recreation activities in Manitoba with an illegal tax grab? Call a referendum. Let Manitobans decide. Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Local Government): Mr. Speaker, in Budget 2013, which members opposite voted against, an 8.5 per cent increase to municipalities, where across the country you're seeing provinces either being flat with regard to their support to municipalities or cuts.

So we're very, very pleased and proud to be able to provide support to municipalities in this province with an 8.5 per cent increase, and the increase has gone over the last number of years by over $200 million increase to municipalities throughout the province. And I know those municipalities are very, very appreciative of it. They know that those dollars are investment wisely. And recreation we're very, very supportive of and have always been supportive of as a government. Mr. Graydon: Mr.

Speaker, the communities of Arborg and Bifrost will have to pay almost $600 more in hydro, almost $200 more in natural gas and, thanks to the PST being applied to insurance, they will now pay a whopping $3,453.79 in insurance for the coming year. The spenDP tax grab equals almost $17,000 that will not go to recreation activities in the com munities of Arborg and Bifrost. When is this spenDP trying to shut down recreation activities while at the same time lining their own political potty–pockets? Mr. Lemieux : Mr.

Speaker, not only in rural Manitoba but in, indeed, Winnipeg, we have partnered with the City of Winnipeg on many splash pads, recreation opportunities. And, indeed, throughout Manitoba you've got great athletes, you know, like Jonathan Toews and others who participated in recreation in the city of Winnipeg. We are proud to sponsor many recreation facilities.

Indeed, through Local Government we've provided a $25,000 amount of money to many, many facilities to do feasibility studies, to look into the recreation possibilities for their communities all throughout Manitoba, not just W innipeg but throughout rural Manitoba and northern Manitoba, Mr. Speaker. We as a government care about all Manitoba, not just Arborg and the few communities that they like to cherry-pick, Mr. Speaker, but every single corner of Manitoba. We are working t o improve recreation for the citizens of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker: Time for oral questions has expired.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Marianne Curtis Mr. Dennis Smook (La Verendrye): I rise today to congratulate Ms. Marianne Curtis, a long- time journalist for The Dawson Trail Dispatch, on her nomination for the 2013 YM -YWCA Women of Distinction Award in the media and communications category. The YWCA Women of Distinction Awards are given out annually to talented and inspirational

June 25, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2701 women who have made a unique and ex emplary contribution to the development of others in Manitoba. Even though Ms. Curtis did not win the award, it was truly an honour for her to be nominated and the evening was enjoyed by all who attended. For more than a decade, Ms. Curtis has been the head writer for The Dawson Trail Dispatch where she has published more than 7,000 articles, covering news stories in 52 southeastern Manitoban communities. But it's not only the quantity that counts; it is the quality of Ms. Curtis's freelance work that stands out.

Whether covering politics, community events or sports, monthly newspapers distributed across southeastern Manitoba, Ms. Curtis has built a reputation for accuracy and shown a passion for making a difference in people's lives. Ms. Curtis is als o a published author of three books: moondust madness, Behind Whispering Pines and Finding Gloria. Her recently published memoirs, Finding Gloria, is a source of hope and inspiration for others as Ms. Curtis reveals honest details about the mental and physical abuse she suffered as a child and teenager and how she found love, healing and peace through writing.

The former ambulance attendant and health -care aide also volunteers countless hours training and mentoring new writers, being a tutor –a reading tutor for elementary school students and speaking to foster parents, students and teachers about bullying, mental health issues, social justice and child abuse. Mr. Speaker, Ms. Curtis demonstrates an incredible amount of personal determination and commitment to the community. Ms. Curtis's family and friends are all very proud of her recent accolades. And, on behalf of Dawson Trail, we wish her many congratulations for this fine, well -deserved nomination.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Tyndall Park Graduations Mr. Ted Marcelino (Tyndall Park): Mr. Speaker, I am very proud of the accomplishments of the students in Tyndall Park. In seven schools across my constituency, students are celebrating their achievements as they graduate from elementary and junior high. The grade 5s of Brooklands School are the youngest kids graduating from elementary school in Tyndall Park. Brooklands families come from many diverse ethnic backgrounds and take pride in learning from each other in a multicultural environment. Mr.

Speaker, Cecil Rhodes School and École Stanley Knowles School have the oldest students graduating from junior high. The grade 9s at Cecil Rhodes are celebrating this afternoon at the International Worship Centre. And the graduating grade 8 students at Stanley Knowles will walk across the stage at Tec Voc School on June the 27th. I wish them all the best as they begin high school in this fall. Weston School and Prairie Rose Elementary schools are our smallest schools in our –in my area with about 200 students each.

Finally, Garden Grove School is celebrating their grade 6 farewell today where the students will be presented with certificates of achievement. I had a special opportunity to get to know some of those students, and I brought them to the Winnipeg Art Gallery, the 100th anniversary exhibit. The constituency of Tyndall Park is blessed with many bright students. I hope these young people and their families are happily celebrating this week. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Neepawa's Tim Horton Summer Camp Mr.

Stuart Briese (Agassiz): Today I would like to recognize a business in our community that is making a difference in the lives of two children from Neepawa. That business is Tim Hortons, and for the second year in a row, the Neepawa franchise has been selected to send two of our local youth to once - in-a-lifetime camping experience. The Neepawa Tim Hortons supports, promotes and endorses the Tim Horton Children's Foundation Camp. The foundation was established in '74 to honour Tim Horton's love for children and his desire to help those less fortunate.

Tim Hortons restaurant owners ask local community organizations who work with economically disadvantaged children between the age of 9 and 12 to refer children who meet the criteria. All children who attend the camps are specially selected and referred by these local organizations. Unlike most camps, parents don't apply directly to send their children to a Tim Horton Children's Foundation Camp. Funding for the foundation comes primarily from the donations from individual Tim Hortons res taurant owners and from public donations collected year -round. Foundation's largest single fundraiser is Camp Day when Tim

2702 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 25, 2013 Hortons restaurant owners donate their entire coffee sales from a 24-hour period. On June 5th, Tim Hortons, Neepawa, had its annual camp fundraiser. Soon after, it was announced that two grade 6 students from Hazel M. Kellington School in Neepawa, Rachelle Lowe and Abbey McLeod, would be heading to Onondaga Farms in St. George, Ontario, from July 15th to July 25th. Local Tim Hortons owner Anthony Chwaluk stated that this will be a life -changing experience for them.

He is quoted as saying, it's nothing but upper scale for these kids and it will definitely affect their outlook on life. The camps are fun, but they're also designed to build confidence, skills and pride for these kids. Foundation now operates six camps and funds youth from across Canada to enjoy the summer experience. Last year's Camp Day raised a record $11 million, which helped to send more than 15,000 deserving kids f rom economically disadvantaged homes on a once-in-a-lifetime camping adventure.

Foundation is a non- profit charitable organization, and they are committed to providing a camp environment for children from economically disadvantaged homes. Research has shown that children growing up in an economically disadvantaged home are at an increased risk of a wide range of negative outcomes, and for those chosen to experience this camp, they will have access to opportunities that develop life - long skills. The goal for each participating child is to leave camp a more caring, responsible, motivated person. Mr.

Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to recognize the Neepawa Tim Hortons for promoting this worthy cause and congratulate two of our local grade 6 children for being chosen to attend. Thank you. NCN Youth Justice Court Mr. Clarence Pettersen (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, on June 18th, 2013, the Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation youth project had a demonstration of the Aboriginal youth justice court in Nelson House. The Premier (Mr. Selinger), Minister Swan and I were at the demonstration, which included members of the community, elders, Chief Jerry Primrose and his band council, amongst many others.

Youth justice court is a restorative alternative justice court which provides for a community -based process that holds offenders accountable. It is directly–involves victims in the resolution of the harm caused by the offence and allows the community as a whole to bring closure by reintegrating the offender and providing a sense of healing to the victim and the community. The justice committees provide an interaction between the offender, the victim and the community that is difficult to achieve in a traditional court setting.

As a result, offenders are able to take responsibility for their action and understand the impact they had on their victims and their communities first-hand. Mr. Speaker, this form of justice is much closer to the traditional Aboriginal justice model and is being used more and more within First Nations communities of the north. In 1991, the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry report identified alternative approaches, including community justice and important initiatives to address justice and conflict resolution issues within Aboriginal communities.

It was a g reat moment to watch the demonstration and witness how an alternative approach has started to work in Nelson House. Minister Swan and I also received the opportunity to see the justice system in action– * (14:40) Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The first one I let go past with respect to the –using the names of an individual member of the Chamber, so I'm going to ask for the co -operation of the honourable member for Flin Flon . W hen we're referencing members of the Chamber, we're to address ministers by thei r portfolio or other members by their constituency names, please. Mr. Pettersen: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. Here I saw the respect that young offenders have for alternative approach. Our government believes in the importance of enabling the community to play an active role in rebuilding the damage caused by criminal activities and the work of community in re-engaging youth in a positive direction within the community. The restorative approach allows people to claim some ownership over their actions and understand the responsibility they have to the community. I wish to acknowledge and highlight the work that Nelson

June 25, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2703 House has done in spearheading the implication of the alternative restorative justice approach. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Westdale School and Oak Park High School Provincial Cheerleading Champions Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I rise today to congratulate the Westdale Wildcats cheerleaders for winning their 2013 junior cheer provincial championship title and the Oak Park High School cheerleaders for their senior pom provincial championship. This is indeed outstanding, as this is the fourth year in a row that they have earned the title of provincial champions.

In individual competitions, both Westdale stunt teams placed first in their stunt routine. They placed second in the pom routine and third in the cheer routine. Oak Park placed first in pom, first in senior cheer and first and third in senior stunt. In recent years, cheerleading has evolved into a sport that stands alone from all other s. Cheerleaders have to have athletic skills, flexibility and even strength. They have to display courage, character and a strong outlook for the safety and well -being of others.

As a former cheerleader myself, I know that they must totally focus on their teammate and execute the spotting skill perfectly. There is no time to be distracted by things happening around them. Cheerleaders have to have confidence in their partners as well as the skills they try to execute. This record of winning four years in a row is an indication of the discipline, devotion and energy of a group of young people and their coaches and volunteers. A special thank- you to the coaches and other volunteers for all they do for the team.

This is such an important age to teach young girl s the value of teamwork and dedication to an activity that encourages physical activity. Kudos also to the administrators in the school who support this activity and encourage excellence in its pursuits. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I ask leave to include a list of the players and coaches involved in the two cheerleading teams. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave of the House to include the list of the names of the players and coaches in today's Hansard? [Agreed] Westdale School –Coaches: Mariell Barratt, Natasha Jenkyns, Jenny Kirkpatrick, Michelle Wherle.

Staff Coach/Supervisor: Donna Peterson. Athletes: Chelsea LeDrew, Claire Middleton, Torie Carmichael, Emma Anton, Mya Hamlin, Mhaiya Naharnie, Kayla Major, Sydney Tayfel, Jenna Jarduck, Bailey Peterson, Mishel Kogun, Samantha Antonick, Tori Houston, Kayla Chartrand, Rhiannon Madden, Elizabeth Zajac, Kacy Classen, Ashleigh Williams, Cassidy Fitzhenry, Morgan Reid. Oak Park High School –Coach: Charwin Dahl. Teacher Supervisors: Ainsley McIntyre, Beckey Quinn.

Roster for 2012- 2013: Jessica A., Arden B., Tierney B., Leah B., Hannah B., Taylor B., Tiana C., Mackenzie D., Lexi D., Katelyn D., Jillian F., Jennifer F., Julia G., Avery G., Katie G., Cristina G., Katarina H., Hannah H., Chelsey H., Hayley H., Tessa J., Danae K., Brooke K., Riley L., Ellen M., Jade M., Taylor M., Emily M., Taylor N., Nicole P ., Ashley R., Asiah R., Breanna S., Caryl T., Brooke T., Talia S., Alanda V., Lauren W., Alison Z., Kourtnee Z. ORDERS OF THE DAY (Continued) GOVERNMENT BUSINESS Hon. Jennifer Howard (Government House Leader): Would you please resolve us into Committee of Supply?

And just a reminder for the House, we'll be sitting until 6 p.m. today. Mr. Speaker: As previously agreed, when we resolve into Committee of Supply, we'll be sitting until 6 p.m. this afternoon. And we'll now resolve into a Committee of Supply, as listed in today's Order Paper. Mr. Deputy Speaker, please take the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) JUSTICE * (14:50) Mr. Chairperson (Mohinder Saran): Order. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now resume consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Justice. As had been previously agreed, questions for the department will proceed in a global manner. The floor is now open for questions. Mr. Reg Helwer (Brandon West): I think when we closed off, I had asked a question about a target date for when construction might start of the Dauphin

2704 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 25, 2013 correctional facility there, or –and that –so that question's on the record and was not answered as of the point where you adjourned the committee. Hon. Andrew Swan (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Yes, there is no target date yet. Justice will be working with Manitoba Infrastructure and Transportation and the City of Dauphin, but there is no target date yet. Mr. Helwer: Mr. Chair, has the design process begun for that facility? Mr. Swan: Not yet, no. Mr. Helwer: Mr. Chair, can the minister tell us when the design process might begin? Mr.

Swan : Well, first we need to get budgetary approval to move ahead. But it's important to recognize that although Justice will be the tenant and the occupier of t he facility, MIT actually is responsible for tendering and for constructing the correctional institution. So I can't give a set date on that. Mr. Helwer: So, is the minister saying that this announcement was made without approval? Mr. Swan : Well, the con struction of a correctional centre happens in a number of stages. We had committed both in the last election campaign and also after that time to build a new jail.

I think everybody's aware the Dauphin Correctional Centre has fully aged out and needs to be replaced. The usual process, of course, is that you take some time from, from announcement like that, to actually moving ahead with the various steps. As I said yesterday, one of the advantages we have is that Dauphin has been a very interested partner. They've been prepared to identify some serviced land that we can use, which, I believe, is going to allow the construction to move ahead more quickly than if we were starting from scratch.

But it's not unusual for the process to move along with a couple of steps along the way. So, if anything, this is probably moving along–has the potential to move along, probably more efficiently than any new jail that's been built in a long time. Mr. Helwer: I guess–so, going back to my question, then. This was announce d. Was –has this been approved? Mr. Swan : Well, there was certainly approval, politically speaking, to move ahead with the announcement of a new jail in Dauphin.

But it has to be understood that building a correctional centre is a complex exercise, and, as is normally the case, there are a number of different steps that have to take place. There has not yet been full consultation with the residents of the City of Dauphin. As you–as I've said, we haven't yet begun the design phase, so there are certainly some steps to be taken along the way. Mr. Helwer: So there is political approval, as the minister said. Who did that political approval come from? Mr. Swan: Well, the general approval comes from, from the Premier and Cabinet.

And I would point out that often there are things which are announced and then, obviously, it takes some time. As the member knows, the Brandon general hospital was promised by his party, I believe, seven times without a single shovel going into the ground. Our government, then, took the initiative and actually took the steps to go ahead. So we have no intention of having to announce the Dauphin jail more than once.

We've announced it, and now we'll be moving ahead appropriately with Manitoba Infrastructure and Transportation, who, again, will be the ones tendering and constructing that correctional centre with the goal of getting a good facility up and running in Dauphin. W e think that, that a new facility there is not only needed, it can also provide a positive opportunity for our correctional 'offercers' to have a greater chance to work with individuals to try and turn them around. I think we all agree that lowering the recidivism rate is a goal that we can all work on.

Part of that is trying to work with, with people in the correctional facility long before they return back to society, to try to get better results. Mr. Helwer: So, the minister said that the site has been selected and agreed to. But there are no criteria yet for this particular prison. How do you know that the particular building is going to fit on this site or that it is an appropriate site? Mr. Swan : I'm advised that the property that Dauphin is prepared to provide to the Province is an 80-acre parcel in a serviced –on serviced land in an industrial park in Dauphin.

So we're quite satisfied that 80 acres will be sufficient to build a correctional centre. Mr. Helwer: Does the promise then–Province then enter into a purchase agreement with the City, and at what rate–or what is the price of the property?

June 25, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2705 Mr. Swan : You know, I think it's best that those questions be posed to the Minister responsible for MIT. Again, even though we will have input into the size and the design of the correctional centre, again, we will be an occupier of the facility, but we won't be tendering it, we won't be building it. Mr. Helwer: Who will be responsible for the design criteria? Mr. Swan : Well, that will be a collaboration between MIT and Justice in looking at what our needs are for the facility. Mr.

Helwer: So I take it then that the design, the criteria has not yet been written. Is that correct? Mr. Swan : Yes, look, those discussions are yet to happen. As the member knows, there have been a number of expansions that have taken place across the system of correctional centres in Manitoba where Justice and MIT have collaborated. There's been expansions in a number of different centres and some of those techniques and some of those standards may very well be useful for a new facility being built in Dauphin. But we're at a very early stage in moving along with this. Mr.

Helwer: Will it be a similar procedure to the Women's Correctional Centre in terms of design and build? Mr. Swan : That hasn't yet been determined, but I can point out that, again, having what appears to be a very suitable parcel of land being effectively donated by the municipality is a big advantage to moving ahead, as the member likely knows. It took some time to assemble the necessary land for the Women's Correctional Centre. Mr. Helwer: Will the design be tendered? Mr. Swan : You'll have to ask the Minister for Infrastructure and Transportation that question, as Justice would not be the one tendering it. Mr.

Helwer: So then the next step, will the actual construction be tendered? Mr. Swan: Again, I would suggest that question be put to the MIT Minister. Mr. Helwer: So, at current time, the rate of capacity, as the minister said, for the Dauphin Correctional Centre, is 61, and as of April 30th, we–apparently we had 82 inmates in custody there, and the minister has said this one will be larger, but will it be large enough to hold the 82 inmates that are currently there or do you anticipate it'll be a hundred? Do you have a goal? Do you have a plan? * (15:00) Mr.

Swan: Yes, I can point out as –because I know it's important to put the most recent information on the record, the total count at Dauphin Correctional Centre as of this morning was 78, and as we've indicated, the new jail, the new Dauphin Correctional Centre, will be larger than the existing facility, but we haven't finalized other arrangements at this point. Mr. Helwer: Are there any plans over the next year to announce either expansions or construction, new construction in any of the other facilities? Mr.

Swan: If we have any further announcements on other expansions to the system, we will certainly let the member know. Mr. Helwer: Okay, well, that kind of leads me into the prison population then, and I do have the report. The last FIPPA we filed –I'm sure the minister has more recent information, and if he could provide me with some numbers here. The Agassiz Youth Centre, the rated capacity is 148 and the numbers I have were 117 of the custody population. Can the minister provide us with updated numbers? Mr. Swan : I do have information as of 7:23 this morning.

The total in- house populations for each facility: Agassiz Youth Centre, 118 youth; and the Brandon youth unit, six; youth at the Manitoba Youth Centre, 163; The Pas youth unit, four. For the adult population, Brandon Correctiona l Centre, 312; Dauphin Correctional Centre, 78; the Headingley Correctional Centre, 823; Milner Ridge Correctional Centre, 504; The Pas Correctional Centre, 126; the Women's Correctional Centre, 204; and the Winnipeg Remand Centre, 370. Mr. Helwer: Can the minister break down those numbers a little bit more and tell me what the remand population is or/and any other population? Mr.

Swan : Yes, I can. Again, in the same order: at the Agassiz Youth Centre, 72 sentenced, 46 remanded; Brandon youth unit, zero sentenced, 6 remanded; Manitoba Youth Centre, 14 sentenced, 149 remanded; The Pas youth unit, zero sentenced, four remanded. With the adult population, for Brandon Correctional Centre, 163 sentenced, 149 remanded; Dauphin Correctional Centre, 51 sentence d, 27 remanded; for the Headingley Correctional

2706 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 25, 2013 Centre, 297 sentenced, 526 remanded; Milner Ridge Correctional Centre, 208 sentenced, 296 remanded; The Pas Correctional Centre, 44 sentenced, 82 remanded; the Women's Correctional Centre, 96 sentenced, 108 r emanded; and the Winnipeg Remand Centre, 66 sentenced, 304 remanded.

I can point out in the adult population, 38 per cent of the population is sentenced, 62 per cent is remanded, and, actually, the percentage of those on remand is actually just about the lowest; it's certainly the lowest I've seen as the minister and the lowest it appears to have been in a number of years. Mr. Helwer: What would the minister attribute that what he attests is the lowest he's seen in years? To what would he attribute that? Mr.

Swan: Well, it's not an easy question to answer, I mean, generally speaking, the way we think of the population of correction centres, I mean, think of it as input, who's being brought in, what's the velocity that they're being taken through the syste m and what is the eventual output. And my opening comments were focused largely on some of the things we're doing to try and increase the velocity of cases moving through the system which is taking up a lot of effort from individuals across the justice system, not just one area like courts or prosecutions.

I know there's speculation on different reasons why the remand percentage could be going down. We–Manitoba was a province that called for the ending of the two for one credit, the automatic two for one credit for remand. I can't tell you that that's responsible for a piece of this, it is possible. As you know, Manitoba supported many of the provisions of Bill C -10. It's likely too early for any tougher penalties to work their way through the system, but, as you understand, if somebody is sentenced to a penitentiary term in a federal prison, they then move out of the provincial system.

We think court efficiency is a good piece but also I'd point out that, once again, in Winnipeg, which is unfortunately a large driver of the jail population, our crime rate continues to drop which everything else being equal would reduce the number of people coming in on remand and over time, would–you'd expect to see the numbers going down. So I don't want to pretend that I or anybody else in the department has a magic answer to that. It's likely a combination of a lot of different factors. Mr. Helwer: Well, does the minister have a strategy for reducing the numbers in remand? Mr.

Swan : Well, the member has yesterday's Hansard so probably going through, reading my description of a lot of the various things which we're doing to try and improve velocity –that's not something that justice takes lightly as I indicated yesterday. Mr.

Brickwood is now tasked with leading up a lot of the innovation projects; we have a director of innovation who is working very hard; I also want to commend people within prosecutions, within corrections, within courts, as well as the judiciary at working together to tr y to come up with some better ways to move cases ahead more quickly and more effectively for the system. Look, there are some other things that we're doing that, quite frankly, don't necessarily have a great impact on remand numbers.

If we didn't have the Warrant Enforcement Unit, paid for by the Province, which was allowing the Winnipeg Police Service and the RCMP to devote resources to getting people off the street who have missed court appearances, who have refused to follow court orders, I suppose that if those individuals were still out in the street, we'd have fewer people on remand, but we think public safety means that we continue doing that. * (15:10) If we didn't have a Winnipeg Auto Theft Suppression Strategy–it's been part of an incredible process that has brought down auto theft by more than 80 per cent in the city of Winnipeg–I suppose if some of those youth were still out there stealing cars and weren't dealing with consequences, that could have an impact.

If we didn't have the Gang Response and Suppression program working with the Winnipeg Police Service with intensive supervision of those who we think, although not in a correctional centre, deserve some special attention, if we weren't paying that kind of attention to those people and oft en returning them to a correctional centre, I suppose the remand numbers would be down. So, if the goal alone is reducing remand numbers, we're not solely focused on that.

We're trying to make the system more effective, we're trying to make it more effic ient, and we do that by moving ahead on the velocity of the cases moved through the system. There's always challenges in

June 25, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2707 doing that, but there's a lot of smart people in the department that are doing very good work. Yesterday I talked about the video linkages, and just between Thompson and The Pas alone, we're seeing a major shift in the way that cases work their way through the system. We're seeing a major shift in the amount of time that our sheriffs have to be driving prisoners to and from The Pas Corr ectional Centre to Thompson for a court date. We think that's good for everybody.

We're seeing a shift in the way that lawyers in Thompson and across the province are able to have contact with their clients to give them advice, to try and move things ahead. Those are some of the things that we're working on to try to move people through the system more appropriately. And where do they move to? Well, that can be a number of different situations. If it's somebody who's done something serious, who poses a ri sk to our community, frankly, we want them moving out to a federal penitentiary. If there's somebody who is a danger to our communities, we want them in a correctional centre.

If they're individuals that we think can be managed out in the community with support from probation services, then that's something we want to see happen. If they're individuals we can divert from the traditional criminal law system through things like our drug court, through things like our mental health court, well, those are things we want to keep exploring and expanding. So it's a very big question. Is there a plan? There absolutely is. Everything that the innovation department is doing is part of a plan.

Every communication between the courts and the judges and Corrections and prosecutors is part of the plan to make the system more effective. Mr. Helwer: So it is a bit of a piecemeal plan, but I'm looking for how the minister sets criteria for results. How do you measure any success in any of those particular programs? Mr. Swan: Well, let me just say that describing the various things that the various players in the justice system are doing as piecemeal, frankly, I think is a complete misunderstanding of how the justice systems work.

There isn't one magical justice system in Manitoba or any other province in Canada that is entirely harmonized, that moves in a smooth way. There are a number of different pieces of the justice system, some of which that are even –I don't want to say in conflict with each other, but have different goals and different measures. Look, I mean, if you want to look at an example of a very positive situation, I look at the Winnipeg auto theft strategy.

And I know that, while the members opposite were running around talking about bait cars for hours in Estim ates, we were quietly pulling together a plan that involved prosecutions, that involved the court, that involved Manitoba Public Insurance, that involved probation services and that certainly involved the police on coming up with a comprehensive strategy t o try and reduce the number of vehicles being stolen in Manitoba. We know that in 1992- 93, the numbers started spiking up. In the '90s, the government apparently felt powerless to do anything about it.

We came into office and got a hold of the situation and since that time, the number of cars being stolen in Manitoba has gone down by more than 80 per cent. It's not over –the police will tell you and probation services will tell you and prosecutors will tell that car theft remains, but it's one fifth of the problem that it was before. I consider that an example of success. Perfect success would be having no vehicles stolen in Manitoba, and I suppose most Manitobans would want to get there. But in terms of measures, I'd be interested.

I mean, this–as you said at the start of your comments, you want to put forward some ideas. What are you then suggesting as measures? Mr. Helwer: Well, I'm not sure how we got from a discussion of remand into auto theft, but we were on the discussion of remand and trying to f igure out what criteria the department uses to determine whether particular programs are a success or not. Mr. Swan : Well, I –again, I don't know if the member sort of understands. I mean, I can give you a logical absurdity just to point out the difficulty in what I think the member for Brandon West is trying to do.

Let's say we had a system where every single person who was in a provincial correctional centre wound up getting a penitentiary term when they were ultimately sentenced. They had done serious e nough crimes and the judges sent every single person who's now in remand to a federal penitentiary. The remand numbers would actually go up and they'd be a hundred per cent. I don't think anybody would really be celebrating that. So I've tried to explain a little bit about how we improve the system by moving ahead on velocity. Frankly, the justice system or systems being courts,

2708 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 25, 2013 and the prosecutors and Corrections don't really have a lot of control over inputs. The police are the primary drivers of those inputs and as we continue to add more police across the province and invest in public safety, I suppose you could argue that those inputs increase the challenge within our system. We could go back to how it was in the '90s; we could stop funding all those police officers. I suppose they'd be arresting less people and our remand numbers would be lower.

I don't think most Manitobans would think going back to the '90s and the way things were done then would be a good thing for public safety. There are other c hoices that can be made. We could–as was done back in the '90s, we could lay off every probation officer for one day a week and make them take a Filmon Friday. You'd have fewer breaches; there'd be less breaches out there. There'd be fewer people coming into custody but I don't think any Manitoban thinking straight would consider that to be an increase or an improvement over the way things work now.

So, you know, I think I've given a lot of evidence about the way we're trying to improve the velocity. We have no intention of stopping the police from doing their work to give inputs. In terms of the outputs, that depends on the state of the law, that depends on various other factors. And I don't mind having a good discussion about those things, but the main t hing that's within our control is trying to improve the velocity of cases moving through the system. Mr.

Helwer: Well, I think it's unfortunate when the member tends to look back to revisionist history as opposed to answering the question about what he's doing. * (15:20) And the question is very simple, so I'll try to make it a little bit simpler: Can the Minister of Justice give me one concrete example of something the Department of Justice has done to reduce the numbers of remand? Mr.

Swan: Well, for the third time, I'll talk about the video conferencing program, which is now fully operational in Thompson, between Thompson and The Pas Correctional Centre, Agassiz Youth Centre, and two other –I believe, two other correctional centres in the province. And just to help explain how this works , in the absence of having an appropriate video conferencing system, individuals are often required to travel to court for what may turn out to be a very, very minor court attendance.

So a sheriff may drive from Thompson to The Pas to pick up somebody, drive them back to Thompson, for what may turn out to be a 10 - or 15 -second court appearance that doesn't move the case ahead, that doesn't really do anything to advance the case. We thought a good investment was to ha ve an appropriate safe, secure, video conferencing system that can do a couple of things.

First of all, it can allow that individual to remain in The Pas so that the judge can speak to that person in a very efficient way, and find out how the person's going to plead, or if the case is to be remanded, can do that, without having to wait for a prisoner to be moved out of the lockup in Thompson, into the court room, so they can be dealt with, and then moved back out.

That's one good thing because not only does it save sheriffs' time, it always saves the time of the judge, it saves the time of the Crown attorneys, it saves the time of the lawyers, whether legal aid or private defence lawyers, and it saves the time of, of course, the sheriffs. The other advantage of having a system like that is that it allows lawyers to have the opportunity to speak to their client without the lawyer driving from Thompson to The Pas, and either trying to bill Legal Aid Manitoba for their time, or trying to bill the client for their time.

If they have an Internet hookup they can then have a private, privileged and confidential conversation with their client, and give them some advice in an earlier stage in the game. If the person is guilty and is prepared to take responsibility for that, there is now no longer –to be blunt–an advantage with the old two for one remand–credit for time spent on remand, to simply wait until enough time has gone by. There's less incentives for individuals to remain in remand when maybe it would be better for them to plead guilty and get on with their lives.

So that is a concrete example of how an investment that we made, that has required working with the judges, it's required working with private counsel that's involved dealing with different individuals in the justice system, is actually helping to save money directly, but it's also helping to move cases through the system more quickly. So that is a concrete example of how an investment is making

June 25, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2709 sense. That's why we're going to keep expanding the video conferencing, to make sure, eventually, that every correctional centre is hooked up, and as much as possible, have more court centres that are connected. We think that makes sense. We don't want needless court appearances. We don't want needless transfers of prisoners. An example of that –if there's a young person who's in Agassiz, or the youth centre, that has to go to Thompson for an appearance, they're effectively out of that youth facility for about a week.

And many times at Agassiz or at Manitoba Youth Centre, this is the most stable that youth has been. They're actually going to school. They may actually be making some progress. It doesn't make any sense to yank them out of that environment to go and stand in front of a judge for 10 or 15 seconds, and then get put back into the lockup, and eventually transferred back to the–to another institution. So those are the kind of examples –well, that's probably the best example I can give you right now, of things that we're doing to try to speed up the system. I can certainly provide some other examples.

One example of that was last year when we announced a rationalization of some of the circuit courts. It –we became aware from the judges, that judges actually were a little bit frustrated because many court days in some smaller judicial centres or circuit courts, I should say, were only lasting for an hour, an hour and a half, two hours. The way that the courts scheduling happens, a judge is scheduled in for the entire day, and so is the rest of the court party.

If there is a judge and a Crown attorney and a legal aid lawyer, other defence counsel, court clerks, it just doesn't make sense for them to be sitting for an hour or an hour and a half, especially when it’s a community that's connected to another circuit court community or a court centre by 30 or 40 or 50 kilometres of highway. So, in conjunction with the judges, we went ahead to rationalize the circuit courts, the goal being to take an hour or two of hearing time and turn it into a full court da y in a busier centre. By doing that, do we save money directly?

No, we're still paying the judge; we're still paying the Crown; we're still paying the court clerks the same amount of money. Maybe we're reducing overtime expenses with some of the court staf f. We're probably reducing some of the transfers, but we're getting an indirect benefit because, by dealing with that full day of court, we're able to pull cases through the system more quickly. It frees up more time for dispositions, if people are pleading guilty. It also frees up more time for trials, if people want their day in court. So that's another example of something that we can do.

We continue to work with– between the judges and courts –to come up with more opportunities for assignment courts, for screening courts, for disposition courts, more opportunities for things to happen in the court system more quickly than they happened before, and, as well, in the past year, Legal Aid has made some policy changes to try and prevent some of the delays whic h were happening if somebody were suddenly cut off of legal aid once a trial date had been set, court time booked and everything ready to go. So those are some specifics.

If you want, I can give you a couple more, but I hope that's helpful for some of the measures that we're taking in Justice. Mr. Helwer: Much more helpful than the previous answers. I know that the minister may count things differently than I do, but he said for the third time that's the first time we've spoken of the video conferencing today, so you never know. But anyway, for the video conferencing, can the minister then provide us with what the installation cost of that was for that facility? Mr.

Swan: Yes, I don't have that today, but I'll do my best with my department to try and p ull together the cost of the video conferencing equipment that's being used for this venture. Mr. Helwer: So, I guess the other questions I have to ask on that, then the minister can probably add that information. The one would be whether it's tendered or sole source, the cost of maintenance and operations, and, in terms of the future –as he spoke about future installations –would this be a similar system they would put in elsewhere or would it be a different system, and would it be tendered for each particular location? Mr.

Swan: Well, sure, I–yes, the question is whether this new equipment was tendered or sole -sourced. I will undertake to get that. The cost of maintaining it because it's a new system, that cost right now is likely quite modest. We'll provi de what we can reasonably find out. I don’t want to spend more on finding the answer to the question than the amount we're spending on maintenance, and there are plans

2710 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 25, 2013 to expand the connections between more court centres and more correctional centres. And through the innovation area we continue to look at other cost-effective ways that we can move ahead. * (15:30) I can tell you that, you know, if you think of – even of the reduction in the number of transfers of prisoners that now aren't necessary because of having this system in place, we think there's some pretty good upside in real cost savings even before we get into the ability to move cases through the system more quickly. Mr.

Wayne Ewasko (Lac du Bonnet): Just a quick question. The minister mentione d a few of the locations around the province that has the video conferencing equipment. Can he–he did mention that there were two others. Could he mention where the other two are? And sort of gave him a hint on that one. Mr. Swan: Okay, it's–give you an a nswer, it's kind of like an aircraft

schedule lining up which places go to–where you can get flights from which city to which city. For an example, the Thompson court office now has this new video linkage to The Pas Correctional Centre, to the Women's Corr ectional Centre, Agassiz Youth Centre, the Winnipeg Remand Centre and also the Law Courts here in Winnipeg. That–the connections will be different for the different correctional centres. There is an older legacy system, to use a very polite term, for example, between Milner Ridge and the Law Courts building.

Over time, the plan would be to replace that system with what now exists between Thompson and the other correctional centres. And I'm going to use Milner Ridge as an example, which I'm sure the member for Lac du Bonnet won't mind. Right now, if I'm a lawyer, and I want to speak to my client in Milner Ridge, I generally have to go to the Law Courts in order to get a video connection with that individual. [interjection] Okay, okay. It really –that's just for court purposes.

I mean, in a –as we move forward, the hope will be to have a system, as now exists in Thompson, where lawyers can actually speak to their clients at a place like Milner Ridge, really, within reason, at a convenient time for the lawyer. S o the lawyer can have their day in court in Winnipeg. They can then, after work, in the evening, as long as there's staff available in Milner Ridge to allow somebody to get to a video location, the lawyer can then have the opportunity to speak to their client. Again, the advantage of that is that it can allow decisions to be made more quickly.

It can allow decisions to be made more effectively and, again, can reduce the need for a number of court appearances. It can allow different steps to happen more quickly and, ultimately, I think, benefit everybody. Benefiting the lawyers is not something most people are too concerned about, but if it reduces a lawyer's billings to Legal Aid, I think people celebrate that. More importantly, though, for inmates at corr ectional centres as well as the rest of the system in general, that's a really positive advantage. Mr. Ewasko: So –just so that I'm perfectly clear – thank you, Mr.

Chair–but so just so that I'm perfectly clear, Minister, right now at Milner Ridge the equipment, the video conferencing equipment is not there. It's not serviced. It's not being used. There's nothing like that there. Mr. Swan : I probably wasn't clear enough in my earlier answer. There is video conferencing capability at Milner Ridge Correctional Centre. It's an old system which is less effective than what we're now installing. It connects the Milner Ridge Correctional Centre with the Winnipeg law courts. So, for example, if somebody wants to make a bail application, they could choose to do t hat by video.

So the lawyer would be in Winnipeg, in front of the judge in Winnipeg and the inmate would then appear by video, because of those limitations it has been underused and I think it underscores the ability to expand the use of video technology t o keep getting better results through the system. Mr. Helwer: Well, I'm going back, then, again to numbers here, and the minister gave us numbers of particular areas in remand. It looks like there's around 1,700 total. Would the minister care to give us an exact total today? Mr. Swan: That's just about exactly right.

There are 205 youth that are in custody on remand and there are 1,492 adults in custody in remand for a total of 1,697. Mr. Helwer: What is the process of tracking the costs of keeping people in remand? Is there –can you give me a total dollar number for the past year of what that cost would have been, or is there any way to break that out? Mr. Swan: No. Mr. Helwer: Okay, and can you then–thank you, Mr. Chair–can the minister tell us what the av erage

June 25, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2711 amount of time over the past year people spent in remand? * (15:40) Mr. Swan: You know, we do have that information. The only caveat I would put –and I'll give you the numbers first and then a bit of an explanation. The average time spent in remand for the last fiscal year for adults was 52 days, for youth it was 29 days. That will be a collection of everybody who comes into a correctional centre on remand.

Those could be people who are released within a day or three days or seven days, that could al so be people who are at remand for a long time because they're awaiting a trial for a very, very serious offence. But that is the average time spent in remand, as the member has asked for. Mr. Helwer: Thank you–thank you, Mr. Chair –that was what I was looking for. And I guess, as an extension of that then, what is the maximum time someone has spent in remand over the past year? Mr. Swan: Yes, look, we don't have access to that kind of information.

I mean, in the past year it's fair to say there are –there's a substantial number of inmates who were in–on remand for that entire year. Look, the most serious crimes, if somebody doesn't get bail or they know they're not going to get bail so they don't even apply, they will remain in custody on remand until ul timately their trial is heard. So we don't –we can't particularly track that number, but, generally speaking, you can kind of appreciate that the profile of those who would likely spend more time on remand. Mr.

Helwer: I thank the minister for not taking the easy answer, just saying a year, because that was an obvious out there. But can you give me a bit more of a feel on that type of thing? Would it be a couple years–two, three years that you would have seen for some of those serious cases? Nothing exact , but just a ballpark. Mr. Swan : You know, I can't really answer that. I mean, each case moves ahead on its own, there are various factors that may play into why somebody doesn't get bail or why their lawyer doesn't make an application for bail. There may be factors if it's a particularly complex case.

There may be disclosure which takes some time to move a case ahead. If there's a preliminary inquiry, that could result in longer time in remand. So I –Justice doesn't really –wouldn't track that kind of information. Mr. Helwer: Our population in Manitoba is fairly similar in the way that it's laid out to Saskatchewan's, other than area, but their remand numbers seem to be considerably lower than ours. And I know each provincial justice 'sishin' –system is par ticularly different, but can the minister give us an idea of why Manitoba seems to be so high with the 62 per cent in remand,

whereas in Saskatchewan we tend to see around 37 per cent? Mr. Swan: Well, I will agree that Saskatchewan has many of the same ch allenges that Manitoba does, an equally high crime rate and violent crime rate, and as I believe the member saw in the report today, substantially higher domestic assault rates than Manitoba. It's hard to put a finger on the difference. Some of it may be bail policy. I've heard some say, although I don't have anything concrete, that Manitoba is one of the tougher places in Canada to get bail.

We do have the Winnipeg Auto Theft Suppression strategy and the gang response and suppression program which could re sult in more people who might fly under the radar or otherwise be brought in and being a number on remand. We do actually talk with Saskatchewan. We think some of the things they're doing in Saskatchewan are very positive. I know they think some of the t hings we're doing in Manitoba are very positive. So there's no formula that we're aware of where you can plug in and say, well, the difference is because of X or Y. Mr.

Helwer: I guess, a little over a year ago there was–Bill C-10 was brought in, the safe r streets and communities act, and the minister said, you know, we've seen a drop in remand, while prior to this act coming in there was a lot of rhetoric out in the public that we would see significant increases in the prison population which–in which case we've seemed to see the reverse. Can the minister comment on that? Mr. Swan: Well, it's a big question.

As you know, Manitoba had called for a number of the provisions that found their way into Bill C-10, which is why we supported the passage of Bill C -10 with some caveats that I'll talk about in just a minute. Bill C -10, of course, was only prospective. It only took effect for crimes which were committed after the law came into effect. So I understand that, really, most of those

2712 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 25, 2013 cases haven't really wor ked their way through the justice system yet. There's a number of factors that go in different directions. Again, if one result of Bill C -10, when it fully works its way through the system, is more people being sentenced to federal prisons. Everything el se being equal–and I'm not saying it would–that would actually increase the percentage of people in provincial correctional centres on remand.

If more individuals are prepared to fight their case and have their day in court because they fear a mandatory minimum, everything else being equal, that means more trials. That may actually mean a bigger delay in cases coming to trial. That could actually mean more people on remand for those who are held in custody. There is a lot of complex issues that go into t his. Bill C -10, we think many portions of it were necessary to give people more confidence in the system and to deal with some of what we think are the most serious crimes. Other parts we weren't so crazy about.

It's become much, much harder to get a pardon, even for people who have avoided further contact with the law. * (15:50) Delaying getting a pardon, making it more expensive, making it more difficult actually creates a problem that people may have a harder time finding employment and staying on the correct side of the law. So that portion of Bill C -10 may actually result in more people becoming involved with the law again, which would have a negative impact on numbers. So, generally speaking, it's too early to tell. We think there may be some positives, but also there could be some negatives.

And I know the member for Brandon West (Mr. Helwer) mentioned this in his opening comments, and I know what –we'll get on to it–the one thing that we know is happening is it's putting more pressure on Legal Aid, and as more people see that they may be faced with a mandatory minimum penalty, anecdotally, at least, more people are stepping up and saying that they want to have their day in court; they want to try and get an acquittal because they're aware that there will be a mandatory minimum sentence waiting for them. That could put more pressure on the legal aid system.

If there are pressures on the legal aid system, that can prevent having a defence lawyer ready to take a case to court on any given day. So that can also have a – that can also play a role in some of the challenges. So it's a good thesis, I suppose, for somebody to say what is the impact on Bill C-10. I expect three or four years down the road we still may be trying to decide how much of an impact Bill C -10 has had, both positive and negative, on the justice system. Mr.

Helwer: So, then, I'll move into the Estimates books here, and we'll stay with Corrections because that seems to be the flavour we're going with right now. On page 75 we look at subappropriation No. 04-4A for Corporate Services, and the notes are always of interest to me. So I see at the bottom here we have a decrease of one full -time equivalent position due to an extended vacancy, and perhaps the minister could expand on that note a little bit for me, please. Mr.

Swan : Well, I promised I'd introduce the new players as they find their way up to the table, so we're joined by Maria Campos; she's the comptroller who has the information on these sorts of things. I'm told that this was a business analyst position, and, as you know, our government made some commitments to do what we could to reduce the number of civil servant positions. Justice decided this was a position that was no longer necessary and so the position was given back, if you will. Mr. Helwer: So, then, going back up toward the top of the page, I see wh ere we have that drop in FTE from 29 to 28.

So, yet, when we look at the expenditure dollars, they're up considerably, somewhere around 5 per cent, and then the indirect salary costs as well are up a great deal, as much – overall the total salaries and benef its are up around 7 per cent–higher than the cost of living and–seeing that we've dropped a position here–perhaps a little bit surprising. So would the minister care to comment on those numbers? Mr. Swan: Right, well, we're talking about page 75 of the y ellow Supplementary Information for Legislative Review.

My question, I hope, will be helpful across the system. * (16:00) Across the Department of Justice, you'll see that the general salary increase or adjustment was $15,878,000 within this one area, C orporate Services, for Corrections Division. I guess it's a

June 25, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2713 microcosm of what's going on across the system; there's a general salary increase of 2.75 per cent. There–in any division and any area you look at, there may well be individual employees who are getting merit increments because of their service, their good service. They can move by more than just the general salary increase. There could also be–in this division and others, there could be reclassifications that take place.

As well, as the government moves towards fully funding pensions on an ongoing basis, the government contribution to the pension fund actually increased in the last fiscal year to go from 6.2 per cent to 7.1 per cent, as well as there's some incremental costs in employee benefits. So that's the answer for page 75. It will likely –it would likely be the answer if you asked me the same–across the system, where the increase in salary comes from. Mr. Helwer: I think that will probably answer a number of the questions, but there are others on pages as well. But sticking on this

section here, the Corporate Services, is this the area that would do internal reviews of Corrections or of any difficulties, or is that another particular area? Mr. Swan : No. When an incident review takes place, Corrections will put together a team of Justice employees using the particular skill sets that they have that would be useful to the incident that's being reviewed. Mr. Helwer: So there was an incident, as I understand, at the Winnipeg Remand Centre that was reviewed by Correctional Services Canada, I believe, and that report has not been released its –in its entirety.

Is there an opportunity coming up where that report would be available for review by the public? Mr. Swan : Yes, the member for Brandon West is correct. There was a–there was what we considered to be a serious incident, and there was a three -tier review. There was an initial review. There was then a more full review conducted within Corrections, and at that point it was decided that it wou ld be appropriate to bring in an outside agency, in this case the Correctional Service of Canada. And the member is right, some basic information was released. We don't release detailed information on incidents of this type.

Mr. Helwer: Well, it–when it was first released, the MGEU seemed to have a great deal of information. Of course, they're involved in Corrections and they made some comments on the review in the media that seemed to indicate that they had information that was not public, and I guess we' re just looking for access to the same type of information. Mr. Swan : Yes, we don't release detailed information on incidents of this type for a number of very valid reasons. Mr. Helwer: Okay.

Obviously, as the minister said, this was a serious incident, and I would imagine that it has caused some changes in the Winnipeg remand system–the Winnipeg Remand Centre. Would the minister explain what some of those changes would have been? Mr. Swan : Well, I can say there was some disciplinary action taken agains t certain employees, but I'm not going to comment on what that action was. I can also say that there have been court proceedings taken against certain employees, and, obviously, I can't comment on something that's before the courts. So there has been action taken as a result of the investigation. Mr.

Helwer: Is there any process changes that have been taking place because of this report? Mr. Swan: Well, I'm advised that the review panel, which was Correctional Service of Canada, found no convincing evidence of widespread misconduct. I'm told that the panel was impressed by the tone of professionalism displayed by both the staff and management at the Winnipeg Remand Centre, which is the facility in question, and, with respect to recommendations, that the de partment's accepted them and is in the process of addressing them. Mr.

Helwer: So from that response, although there have been a few changes, it would seem to be that this was not a systemic problem but an individual or two that were the cause of the problem. * (16:10) Mr. Swan : Yes, I think that the summation by the member for Br andon West is not unfair. That's –I think that's a pretty reasonable way to describe it. Mr. Helwer: So, then, I understand the minister has said some of this is before the courts. So from that I would take it that at least one, maybe more people have been released from Corrections?

2714 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 25, 2013 Mr. Swan : Yes. I'm not going to comment on personnel matters. Mr. Helwer: Okay, well, we'll keep delving this a little bit then. I guess there are serious staff implications to something of this nature, obviously, and while the m inister may not be able to deal with particular individuals, there has undoubtedly been some implications and ramifications for the Winnipeg Remand Centre. Would the minister care to comment on whether we have seen any new hires, reclassifications, transfe rs or retirements with or without severance? Mr. Swan: Certainly, the department takes incidents very ser

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	40-2-64b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	40th 2nd hansardpdf 64b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	ef1a30f578f2af5c47938328fe4b442c147d3e54

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