Volume 3 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session VERBATIM REPORT MONDAY, APRIL 29, 1974 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 57 ..... ,

The House met at 3:0'1 l'.M. '1r. Speaker :In the Chair. VP • SPFAKF.R : f"rder, please! / Tane 1367 (AFternoon) PK - 1 It is a pleasure for me to welcome to the galleries today twe]ve Grade XI Rtudents from the Jlenry Gordon Academv at Cartwright 1 with their teacher, "r. Lee l':lttman. From the Commun:lty Council of Point of' Tlav we have the Chairman of the Community Council, "Mr. Lloyd Perry; ''r. Carl Mart:! n and Mr. Nelson Cole.

On heh.al f of all honour ah le me.inhers I would like to welcome you ner ,nle to the galleries today and trust that your v:lsit here is most interestinr. ''INISTER IAL STATF.MF:NTS MP.. SPEAKFR: The Hon. ninister of Forestry and Ap.riculture. !lml. E. __ ;-1.AYN~ .: (r<lNJSTETl OF FflRE:STPY MID AGJHCTILTIJRF.): Mr. Sneaker, I do not have a preoarecl statement hut I should make some comments to clarifv a situat:lon rpr;irdj_nir nrPss re1'orts dur:lnp, the last few days regard:lng the Proposed sale of some 14,000 acres of 'Reid land in the Cla.renville-Shoal J!arhour Area.

The nress has heen in contact with me as to what. act5on the rovernment nronoses to take regardinv the land sale. The siturtion is, as I underst1md it, a firm or a person from the llnited States has Proposed to huv 14,00f" acres or around th;it amount :In the Clarenville_ Shoal Harhour Area from 'Reid Newfoundland Limited. Pe do not have any notificat:lon of this.

Regard:lnp, the sale of nrivate lands, >1r. !'1peakt>r, there :Is no leg:lslation oresently exist:lng on the Statute Tlooks of Newfoundland that T?ould renuire any nrivate lAndowner to register the sale. of land with government or oht:dn a nerm1 t from government to se.11 the land. We have never instituted any law that even reQuires a nerson to register the sale. The government, ho'l-•ever, have reco11:nized the nroblem and are verv much concerned about it, especially about the problem of absentee j o~mers of the resources, uncontrolled use of land. 4518

Apri.1 ?Q, 1974 Tane 13~7 (Afternoon) One of the reasoni,; for the ne~,, forest policy that has been introduced and the new l.eg:lslation now before the House fs to assure PK - ?. the proper mangement of our forest resource. We cannot,aeain I sav at this time, prevent the sale of any large tracts or small tracts of freehold land hut we are,through the forest policy,cornmitted to a programme that will assure their nroner use.

If the people from wherever are indeed huying 14,000 acres of land, the control of the resource on that land will come within the ambit of the new forestry le,i:islat:lon because that annl:l.es to anyth1np over 3fl0 acres, therefore, thev will have to suhmit the various management plans and so on to me for approval. Pe have had vari.ous discussions on the ownership of land in the province, land that is suitable not only for forestry hut for agri.culturr or whatever and a numher of our task forest renorts have dealt wi.th the problems of Absentee landowners and the non -use of privately m,med lands.

We havE' now assigned neon le in mv department to work on this full time, to devise a new land's nolicy for the province. Hopeful]v within the next year we will be introducing nolicies and/or legislation, if necessary to bacJ, it un, that will en,:iure that we know when private sales take place, that we can ensure that land for whatev~r resource use ii,; nut to the proner ui,;e in the future. T,Je now have a spec:! al work group ,as I say, who are preparing a whole new land's noli ,cv, And -f.t will take al] factors into account.

Again I have to emphas:lze, At the nresent time we do not have any legislation that would require any person owni.ng land to obtain a nerm:lt or even contact the p;overnment in anv way wheri th_e land is sold. Therefore, T. hone to clear up the situation because the news media have been asking1m1.1 reneatedlv whether or not we were going to take any action regarding the ~ale. The simple matter is that we do not at this time have any powers to take any action. We will and we are looking at leg:lslati.on aimed at that spec:lfic sort of thin,i:. }fR • SPF AKER : The Hon. Leader of the Opposition. 4519

April 29, 1q74 Tane 13r,7 (Afternoon) HON. F.. it. ROBERTS (LF.ADEll. OF TBF. '1PPOSITION) : If I may make a very few brief comments on the honourable gentleman's ministerial statement: We appreciate what he saic insofar as it is a statement of fact. Pe accept it. I helieve it to be correct.

PK - 3 Sir, the statement ts an extremely disanpointing one because it gives no indication of any intention by the government to take anv action to prevent what is renorted to be a sale; a very large area of land and one of the few lar11e areas of land Jeft in Eastern Newfoundland, I am to] d that could be develoned aR a reacreat:lonal facility, a ma.1or outdoor recreational facilitv. Accenting the fact, Mr.

Speaker, that there is no ]Pptslation on the Statute Books of this province, there is no legislation for this purpose, there is nothing to prevent the number first of all from communicatinp. to the Reid f.omnanv the government's concern over this anrl urging them to refrain from sellinp this lanrt until !'luch time 11s a proner land - use nolicy can he worked out for the nrov:l.nce. Secondly, and these are not necessarilv alternative, Mr.

Speaker. each could be clone, there i!'l nothinl? to prevent tr.e 11;overnment bringing a hill before the µouse immediatelv, to nrevent the sale of this piece of J anrl or a riJ l could be drawn, generic sale, a sale of this niece of land in a generic sense. So it is extremelv disaPnointinp.. As I understand the minister made two pni.nts :tn his statement, first that there i.s no lep.is1ation now in effect. J think that is a matter of record. There is no lepislation that would serve for this purpose. Secondlv. that the J?overnment are at some d1 stant point in the future goinr; to nroduce a land nolicy.

Sir, that :Is extremely disapnointing. It does not meet the problem. tt does not deal with the danger that this verv lar2e, verv prime, verv choice area which could he developed for a ma.1or recreational centre and one of the few areas 1 eft in Eastern Newfoundland that could do th~t, this area may go outside of the control of this nrovince, outside of the control of the citizens of this nrovince and thus he lost to us, the neor,le of Newfoundland. It was said it would be developed for the benefit of absentee o·wners.

I thi.nk that is a matter of disanpointment and I ~Tould urge the minister to reconsider what he said 4520

Aoril 2", 1974 Tane 1367 (Afternoon) PK - 4 in the lip.ht of what I said and see if nerhans some measures can be worked out to deal with this matter and to deal with it cmickly. PETITIONS MR. SPEAKF'R: The honourable Member for Bonavista ~forth. MR. P. S. THOMS: Hr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a oetition on behalf of the residents of Centreville, Wareham, Parsons Point, Valleyfield, Pool'R Island, Badp:er's Ouay, Brookfield, Wesleyville, Pound Cove, Templeman, Newtown, Lumsden, Musgrave Harbour and Carmanville. These communiti.ei; are in the Districts of Bonavista North and the District of Fogo. ~<r.

Speaker, the orayer of this petition is that the government as soon as nossihle take steps to reconstruct and pRve Hir-hw;w 40 from thP Town of Td nity to Gander Bav. Now, "r. Sneaker, we have aporoximatel v ninety miles of road involved here, possibly the •••orst d:irt h:li;?:hw1.v i.n the whole orovince, one of the moi'lt imnortant h-fghwRvs i.n the who.le orovince, one of the most heavilv used highwavs :l.n the whole orovince. Therefore, Mr. Sneaker, T submit that if th:!.s :f s not thP most imnortant highwav then :1.t fs next to the most :lmoortant h:!ghway.

Therefore, I urge the government and the denartment concerned that stens he taken :lmmedi.atelv to un!!rade and nave th:ls h:lghwav. We have on th:is h:lph•mv, •<r. ~Peaker, over ?.(),nnn ref;:ldents. Tlie high,,•ay i!'l the 1:1 fel-f ne of the peon] e of both nortions of the tvo distr-!.cts. It is the only means of transoortation that these people have. They do not have an air service. They have no water service. They have no rail service. The onlv transoortation service they have 4521

April 29, 1974. Tape 1368 (Afternoon) RH - 1 is by means of this dirt road. This road at the present time and any time of the year is not up to standard with any other highway that is a secondary highway in the Province. Mr. Speaker, this petition is signed by 2,705 residents and I am given the understanding that there are more petitions and more support for this petition on its way. Now, Mr. Speaker, this was presented to me by the puhlic services committee which is a committee set up of representatives of all of the towns in the area. Mr.

Speaker, I will heartily support this petition and I sincerely trust that the government in its wisdom will find the resources to impliment the orayer of this petition. I ask that this petition be placed upon the table of t~is House and refer it to the department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Fogo. MR. E.W. WINSOR: Mr.

Speaker, as the petition just presented by my colleague, the honourable member for Bonavista North, as it encompasses a great part of Fogo district and we were both aware that this petition had been circulated, we were also aware that a representative of each community or each town where there was a town council would come to St, .John's and present this petition both to my colleague and myself. However, unfortunately I was out and I was driving over that road over the weekend and Mr.

Speaker, I do not know whether my kidneys are in the same position now as before I left but it seems to me that I have had the jerks ever sirrce I got back. Sir, as outlined by my colleague, this is a very important road. It is not only the life line for a greater part of Fogo district running from Gander into Carmanville and south to Lumsden but from the other part of the district which comes down through Gambo, Hare Bay and leads into Lumsden in the other part of the district. It is, Mr. Speaker, the life line of Fogo Island. All of the traffic to andfromFogo Island must pass over this highroad.

The prayer of the petition is that the government will see fit 4522

April 29, 1974. Tape 13~8 (Afternoon) RH - 2 this year to upgrade and pave this road. I am sure that the honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications is very sympathetic toward this petition and if he should need any more help in having him do~m in history and if he wants a monument erected to him for the greatest Silver Anniversary in our Province to date, then I would suggest to the minister that he give this petition very serious and sympathetic consideration. MR. SPEAKER: Are there any other petitions? The honourable memher for St. John's South. MR. R. WELLS: I ask leave, Mr.

Speaker, to present a petition on behalf of the residents of the Shoal Bay Road, in particular fifty- five residents. I shall not read the whole petition but J will read one or two lines from it. They say, "One of the very few industries in the Goulds exists on this road. Time and again we have seen people hindered from getting to either of these lumber mills by the condition of the road. The government has issued a license to these men to operate a lumber mill but yet allowed nothing toward the upkeep of the residential portion of the road where huge logs must be transported.

This road is extensively used more than any other byroad in the Goulds. People from surrounding areas use it extensively for duck hunting, rabbit hunting, fishinp. picnicking, plus the number of people employed in logging." They ask that money be made available, etc. The position is,to state it briefly, Mr. Speaker, that the Shoal Ray Road is perhaps the oldest road in the Goulds except for the main road running up through the conwnunity.

Down on the Shoal Ray Road are two sawmills and it is extensively used not only for these sawmills and the transportation of logs and lumber but also of course on the upper portion toward the main highway by fifty-five residents, for example here.who have signed this petition. What has happened, Mr. Speaker, is that the condition of the road is rendered far worse than obtains in the case of the normal byroad because heavy trucks with logs on are going back and forth. The road 452J

April 29, 1974. Tape 1368 (Afternoon) RH - 3 is literally beaten to pieces by this heavy equipment and then the residents of course have to use their cars on it also, I myself had a look at it last week and it resembles something that one would see in a battle field. Now the situation, Mr. Speaker, is that this road has been neglected for a great number of years. It is time that something was done about it and I believe that this government is sympathetic toward the people who are placed in a position such as this. I would ask, Mr. Speaker, that this be supported by the govern­ ment.

I would ask leave to table this petition and have it referred to the proper department. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, we of course s~pport the petition presented by the member for l'lt. John's South on behalf of fifty-five residents who use the Shoal Bay Road. The member should have no problem at aJl Sir, getting the money now to do that road because this morning we saw a picture of the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture on the front page of the "Daily News" signing an agreement with the honourable Mr.

Jameison, Newfoundland's representative in the Federal Cabinet, whereby the great Liberal Government up there in Ottawa is going to give the Province $30 million for just this kind of work that the member just outlined in the prayer of the petition, So, Sir, all the member has to do is go down to his colleague here and say, "Look, take a few thousand of that $30 million and spend it down on the Shoal Bay Road." I have no doubt at all, Sir, that the minister would agree to do it because that is what the money is for.

So, of all the petitions that have been presented in the House this session, Sir, I am more optimistic about this one than I am about any of the other ones that were present£d, MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Hermitage. MR. R. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to introduce, present a petition on behalf of more than a thousand residents of communities around Bay D'Espoir, some from each community of St. Alban's, Swanger Cove, St, Veronica's, St. Joseph's, The Head of the Bay, Milltown, 4524 r.-

April 29, 1974. Tape 1368 (Afternoon) RH - 4 Morrisville and Conne River. I just received the petition, so I have not had time to calculate the actual number but it looks like between eleven and twelve hundred names affixed to this petition and with good reasons, as I am sure you, Sir, will agree when you hear the prayer of the petition. The intent, the prayer of the petition relates to the deplorable road condition around Bay D'Espoir and the access road into it, the Bay D'Espoir Highway particularly and to some degree the Harbour Breton Road as well.

I do not believe I have to acquaint honourable members with th e problems that the people of Bay D'Espoir as well as other parts of ,lermitage district and parts of Fortune !lay have had to put up with in this particular year. This spring, all over the Province spr;ng conditions tend to create particular road problems. I am sure just about any member can point to bad road conditions at this time of year.

I doubt if there is any area with the possible exception of the Great Northern Peninsula where so many people are adversely affected by a stretch of road as is the case in the areas I have mentioned, Bay D'Espoir, Hermitage and Fortune Bay, The agreement, of course, was signed over the weekend. The announcement was made with respect to the $4.7 million for the Bay D'Espoir Highway. It is worth pointin~ out that this, as far as I understand and I stand to be corrected by the Minister of Transportation, as far as I understand this will not completely cure the problem.

The Provincial Government have announced plans to upgrade twenty miles but that does leave eight miles, indeed the worst eight miles in the present condition, It is the most winding part of the road. It is indeed still up to a woods road standard which is was intended to serve in the beginning. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: The eight miles - MR. SIMMONS: Rip,ht, the eight miles, fifty-two to sixty-one, I believe. At any rate, this eight mile

section for some reason which escapes me is being left without plan to upgrade this summer, On behalf of the people who signed this petition, I would certainly make a strong appeal 4525

April 29, l 974. Tape 1368 (Af terno on) RH - 5 that that decis ion be changed and that the upgradi n~ be compl eted this s ummer. Contrac t ors capable of doing this kind of work do tell me that it is not at all an unrea-sonabl e assign .nent to upi;rade the twen ty-eight miles this year . l mention that because it has heen stated publicly that the reason it is not being done is because of the length of the stretch of road. I would suggest that ther~ are other reasons and if the r e are we sho11ld at least knoi.· about them but more important, I would appeal to the Minister and 4526 -~- .~

Tape 1369 (Afternoon) to the government to change its mind on this matter and get the remainder of the road upgraded. IB-1 The petitjon also refers to the condition of the road~ in the area. That to some degree will. be alleviated shortly when the paving he~ins from Morrisville around to St. Alban's. In this respect too there i.s a prohlem in that the road pavjnp, contract calls for paving from the wharf in St. Alban' s to the wharf in Morrisville. Particularly in St. Alhan's this leaves I think it woulcl be a third of the community or just about that without paving along the main road.

So, they will continue particularly do~m around Hoskins C'ove area, continue to put up with pretty had road conditions. Of course the pavinr, to which I just referred, ~'r. Speaker, does not in any wav take into account the road problems in ronne River or the much talked about causeway. The petition also addresses itself to these matters. Mr.

Speaker, it js my pleasure to support the petition wholeheartedly and make a strong appeal to government to 9'iVe heed to the prayer of the pctjtion with a view to making life just a hit more convenient for the eleven or twelve hundrerl people who signed the petition and the other people who live in the area and who denend on the roads in the area and the access road to Bay D 'Espoir High~ray on a dailv basis. I certainly support the petition, ~•r. Sneaker, ancl ask that the petition be placed on the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. E.

ROBERTS (LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION): I woul cl like to sav a word or two in supoort of that petition presented hy the gentleman from Hermitage. In common with many members on this side I acquired an intimate acquaintance with the road in question last fall durin~ a certain pub] ic event. The gentleman from Bell Islanrl and I and a numher of others bounced our way down that road on a numher of occasions. I rep,ret that the government did not p.et the same acquaintance with the road because when they travelled to the district 4527

Tape 1369 IB-2 they tended to travel by other means, mostly government helicopters supplied at public expense, That is to he regretted, Mr. Speaker, because I think anybody who knows anythinp, ahout that road knows that the road is an important one. Tt serves an important area. It is in very had shape. It is not in t~e worse shape in the province. That distinction helonf!s to the Northern Peninsula Po.ad as the ~entleman from Ferryland and the p.entleman from Burin had the pleasure of finding out last weekend.

That road to Bay D'Esnoir will he f:l.nished this summer I am told, except for the ei vht miles in the center. That is a very good thing. I _iust add my support now to the Minister of Finance who unfortunately was one of the few ministers who was not in Hermitage district during certain public festivities last fall. Why he was not there, l do nc,t know. The gentleman from Bell Island says that he was silenced. That may have been hut it was a lucky silence because it turned into a d:lsaster for the Tory Party. Not having been there, as he has told us on the telev:1.s:lon, his hands have h een washed of it.

Sir, that road is important. There are only eip.ht miles to be done. Now that Ottawa have agreed to put in $4.7 m:!llion and Ottawa have spent most of the money that has been put :Into that road and any other basis. Ottawa built the road orip,inally, the old Atlantic Development Board, Ottawa paved the part that is now pavecl from the Bishop's Falls Junction ahout fifty miles up, south to where the pavement now ends, about half way to the head of the bay.

There are only the eight miles left, Surely the cabinet. 1,1 i1J ar,ree to provide the provincia] monev, provide money from provincial sources to pave the rest of that small piece of road. That 1s all that is needed. I do not want to say that it is no money, Sir, but e:!_!(h t miles of road - they are havinQ about ei!(hty done by the r.overnmcnt of Canada, let them do eight on their own. I am very glad that it is being done because I guess that means that next year all of the DREE 4528 "

Apr1129, 1974 Tape 1369 IB-3 money now can go on the Northern Peninsula Highway. I certainly hope so. The gentleman from Bonavista North wants a share of it. Well, he should have a share of provincial money as well. The road to Bay n'Espoir, Sir, is one of the last great trunk roads in this province left unpaved. Twelve hundred people have indicated their desire to have it paved. I think any Newfoundlander, Sir, would suppor ·t them. That toF;ether with the Bonavista North road and the Great Northern Peninsula Road and we would have broken the back of the trunk roads in this province.

So, I very much hope the province can find their way free this year to pave the road, finish that part. Perhaps we should have another by-election. At least we would get a commitment and hopefully even some ar.tion, snow or no snow. ANSWER~ TO Ql'ESTTONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: HON. J.C. CROSRIE (1-fINISTER OF FINANC:E): Mr. Speaker, in committee the other day the Leader of the Opposition asked several questions and I said I would F;et him the information. The first question was how many new permanent posts were approved in the last fiscal year, from April 1, 1973 to the end of March, 1974.

That answer is q97, sno of those posts are in nongovernment hospitals, l'fr. Speaker. I will table the particulars, 146 for example in the new wing at the St. Clare's Hospital and there is more detail here. Nine in the legislative, four in the Executive Council, twenty-five in 'Finance, twelve in l'fanpower and Industrial Relations, forty in Education, eighteen in Justice, fifteen in Social Services, twenty-four :f_n Rehabilitation and Recreation, thirteen in Health, ten in Mines and Energy, 105 in 'Forestry and Agriculture which will show the increased emphasis we are giving the Resource Development, Mr.

Speaker, thirty-five in Tourism, thirty-nine in the 'Fisheries. The three departments with the greatest growth in new positions are Forestry and Agriculture, Tourism and Fisheries. There are eleven in Industrial Development, eighteen in Rural Development, one in Transportation and Communications, thirty-six 4529

April 29, 1974 Tape 1369 IB-4 :!.n Pub] ic Works and Services, nine in Municipal Affairs and Housing, twenty-four in Provincial Affairs and the Environment, twentv-six in the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, seven in the Workmens Compensation Board, fourteen at the Poler Commission, one at Farm Products, one in the U .quor Licensing Board for a total of 947 altogether, 500 of them in nongovernment hospitals. The same time the inquisitive Leader of the Op~osition \Jan tcd to know how many positions had been rec] assifi ed durinp, the last fiscal year.

The answer is 1,429, of whom the great hulk, 819 are in Transportation imd Communications. I have the details of a] l those positions. I n~ticc that in Transportation and Communications. 157 were mechanics and 433 were equipment operator III 's. So, the ar~wer the.re anyway is 1,429 total number of nositions reclassified. The Leader of the Opposition a]so wanted to know and I hope that he will take this document and study it and he up all night with it. This is a copy of the classification of pay plan issued in February. It shows the official classificat:!.on pay plans to the Government of Newfoundland.

Part two is all positions in aiphahetical order. 'l'he third

part is a sa 1 ary scale. So, I tah le these. Mr. Speaker. AN HONOl'RAllLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: That is it, hoy. Twenty-four hours. ORAL Ql'ESTIONS: ~- NEARY...:... J-,!r. Speaker, I wou]d like to direct a question to - J thought I saw the Minister of "'ines and Enerpy in h1s seat, Sir. He just vanished in thin air. Oh, tl0 ere is the minister up there. Could the minister come hack to his seat. I have a question to put to Mm.

I am wondering what steps the government have taken, Sir, if anY, to counteract, to object to this announced increase in gaso11nc and heating oil today, announced by the various oil companies, I think it was, Does the government intend to do anythin~ to Ret the oil 4530 /,;

April 29, 19711 Tape 1369 IB-5 companies to roll back their prices? Are they ~oing to do what Nova Scotia did? ~re they goinR to do anything or just let the increases come? HON. L.D. BARPY (M1N1STF.R OF MINES AND ENF.RCY): }tr . Speaker, any increases brour.ht in by the oil companies are brought in with the consent and I would almost f?O so far as to say the conni.vance of the federal AOvernment. We have heen ohj ecting strenuously to any permission heing itiven by the federal gov.ernment for any pri~e increases .

It is purely a voluntary matter at this staRe hecause there is no le~islation either federal or provincial which could be used to prevent the oil companies from bringing in price increases. It has been clearly accepted up to now that the oil companies will comp] y with, right across Canada, the guidelines that are set hy the federal government. We now have a situation where it appears the federal government is prepared to consent to the oil companies increasinr. their prices. We have objected to this happening. We ob.Jected at the time of the National Energy Conference. 4531

Anril 2°, ]974 Tape 1370 (Afternoon) PK - 1 He find it unhelievahle that these price increases should he permitted at a time that we see the oil comnanv profits having douhled and in some cases tr:lnled over the last year. We think :f.t :fs another examnle of the :f.rresnonsihle action of the federal gcwernment, Hr. Speaker. 'ffl. NF.AltY: A sunplementar.v question, I wonder 1.f the min:fster would indicate to the House if the objections were nresented orallv or _in ~rritfnp? MR. BARRY: ~r.

SneaJ , er, these obiections were nresented orally and I T would susnect are a matter of record at the ~fational F.nerr.y Conference . The transcrint can be ohtained bv the honourable m:fnister from the Nati~n a l F.nerr;v Conference. T am sorry, not on] v were thev nn~sented oral lv ( ~r.

Sneaker, I am just tryinp: to think hacl-:. ; it was also the pos:!tion of the ~le~-,foundland delegation and the hrief nresented hv the Premier was to thf' effect that ' 1<?wfcrnnc11anit 'R nos it ion was that the ferleral povernml:'nt anou~o see their petroleum prices were rolled back to what they were effective September, 1973. That is a matter of record, Mr. Speaker. 1~R. }1FAPY : ~r. Sf)eaJ,-e,--, a imnolementarv nuestion.

Would the minister ind1.c11te to the Hou11p then if it was the intPntion of hiR government to use anv of the unexpected revenue that is cominp to the nrovince from OttaPa in increased , equal:fzation p:rants tris ve a r, as II result of the tax on •••f'stern oi 1. to offset any increase in the nrice of gasoline or heatj ng oil? nr even to reduce the price of gasoline and heating oil in this nrovince hv removing some of the nrovincial sales tax and usinP. thf' i;O mil lion from thP. increase :f n taxes on western oil? MR !....~~Y..:... Hr.

Sneaker, the honourable Hember for Bell Island has the H:1 nister of F:f nance' s hudp.et hefore him. It shows that every copper that js collected hy th:ls government is hein?a nut to poorl use and 1s needed to meet the demands for services that are heing pl.aced unon government by the peonle of Newfoundland. '!'he neople of Newfoundland have made :ft ciuite clear that thev nrefer to see additional snendinp. ra'ther than a cutback in services. This is '!>•hat this government that is ever resnons:lhle to the needs of thf' Newfoundlanrl neoole is see:fng is to be carried out,

Anril 29 • 1974 Tane 137n (Afternoon) PK - 2 MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, could I direct a question to the Ron. the Premier. In view of the proposed :Increase in heatin~ oil and the gasoline, as of the first of May I think it is, would the Premier indicate to the House if his ~overnment have considered cancelling out these foolish Silver Anniversary Celebrations and use the money to offset the increase in gasoline and heating oil? The Ron. Tongue-tied Premier! The P·remier will not answer the question. He does not want to answer. AN HON. MIDARER: Inaudihle. MR, NEARY: It is too what? 1. ' HON. MEMBER: Inaudible.

MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, could I direct a question then to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing? Would the minister indicate what stens the ~overnment have taken, if any, to revise rentals of workers living in subsidized rental units in Trenassey and in Marystown? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. N'inister of Municinal Affairs and Housing. HON. ll. R. V. EARLE (MINISTER OF '11.JNICIPAL AFFAIRS AND HOUSING): :Mr. Speaker, as I mentioned last week,! exnect to have a report this week when it will be gi.ven. HP. BARRY: '-'r.

Sneaker, if I may .1ust reply to certain matters in connection with this question and possibly to clear up at the same time a misstatement of the facts as contained in the editorial in the "'Daily News•·. The impression that is given in the editorial is that the rents that have increased will continue at that level irrespective of the income made by tenants in these units. But just to the contrary, Mr.

Speaker, the rental that is charged is tied to the income and if even on a monthly basis the income of a tenant happens to decrease that tenant is entitled to go :l.n to the Newfoundland and Labrador Housini:i: Office and explain that there has been a decrease in income and the rent will be decreased immediately. Mr. Speaker, another point in again responding to the honourable , :ninister's questjon and to clear up some confusion that the honourable minister has cause~. The honourable minister has stated, he has asked that the rents he tied to the present income of the tenants. That the rents 4533

Tane 137n (Afternoon) PK - 3 be tied to this vear's immediate j_ncome. !--'r. Sneaker, the whole point is and what the tenants want is to have some del11y and have the rent that is naic1 based on the nrevious VPars,in.come hecause ther" has been a significant increai,;e in income this year. This is what would cause thP rents to increasP dramatically in some cases. These are still not exorhitant rents. There are increases, for example, of rentals going from $(,fi.(1'1 to sun. nn to Sl.7.0,00.

But on a proportioned hasis it is a very larr-e increase and when you have neople who have budr-eted and have not heing exnectini,,; this increase i.t is a hardshin, so we have made strong representation to the federal government when~ again we are tied into an agreement with the federal eovernment on the rules and regulations relatinr to suhsid:lzrd rental nn-1 ts. \.le are_ mak:lng strong re.presentation to see if we can relteve the sudden and dramat:lc increaRe 1-n the rentals. lam sure the honourahle minister will be hringing in a statement to that effect shortly. AN HON . . ~ Hear! Fear!

MF, NEARY: ntta,-.•a is surf!l v thP big had boy these days. That explanation is ahout Ml clear now as the enerr,v roli .cy outlined hy the minister. MR. BARRY: Inaudihle. MR. NEARY· Mr. ~peaJ.-er, T am not sure which mini RtPr he is referrine: to in the statement whether it was I or the 1'11nister of }'unicinal Affairs - NR, BARPY: I am sorrv. the honourable memher. "fR. NEARY: Pell, Sir, I would lilre to have the salarv to r.o with it. 'Mll .• SPF.AKF.Jl ~ Order, p] easP ! ~IR. NEARY: Rut, Sir, a supnlementary question.

Does the Minister of Municipal Affairs, in view_ there seems to be dissension in the ranks here. Would the minister indicate as he did to me the other day when I asked a ouestion if the rentals are hased on last vear's earnings or current :f.ncome? I think this is what caused the controversy. Would the minister clear UP this matter because now we have a different vieWPoint by his colleague? ~. EAPLE: No, Mr. Speaker, I prefer to wa:f.t to give the honourable gentleman a proper and comnrehemlive answer but as he wants i.t tli.ecemeal 4534

April 29, 1974 Tape 1370 (Afternoon) PK-4 he seems to be picking away at these odd things in the arrangement. It is correct, as the Hon. Minister of ~ines and Resources just mentioned, that it can be adjusted on an immediate hasis. If a man's income were to fall from one month to the next, he can go hack and have an adjustment in his rent: he does not have to wait a whole year. It is not compared one year with Rnother but it is for as little as a one month drop in pay for which he can get an adjustment in his rental.

The whole advantage of a subsidized rental scheme, as the honourable member should know, is that it is not only applicable to an increase in income but it is also applicable to a decrease in income. iou cannot have both. You cannot have just an increase applicable to an increase in income if you do not give them at the same time the advantage of a decrease if a man's income should decrease. MR NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. The minister said that the rent can be adjusted hut :In actual fact is it adjusted on a month to month basis in Trepassev and ~•arystown? Or :ls it based on last year's income?

MR BARRY: If the individual were to come in. MR ROBERTS: Oh! HR NRARY: Oh! That is a different matter, Sir. Can the minister tell us if it is actually happening? If this is the way? If this is the procedure that is followed in Marystown and Trepassey? Because it is my understandlng that it is not. MR ROBERTS: On last year's basis? MR NEARY: That is right. MR EARLE: i1r.

Speaker, to make it abundantly clear to the honourable member who asked the question: If any tenant should come in and should wish an adjustment in his rent because his income has gone do~m and he should present evidence that his income had gone down, then, of course, a decrease will he granted. The present enquiry is looking into the rental status of all of these clients of ours, to determine just where they stand. This is why I am not giving a full, detailed report now. I shall have that, hopefully this week. 4535

Tape 1170 (Afternoon) Pl< - 'i ~IP. TWBEP.TS : A f ur thPr sunnlement ary, •Ir. SpeaJ, er, if I 01ay, because th1.I'! iR a new noir,t ' - Are ''"' then to unde rstanc' from the minister's Rtatement that if anv tenants suffe t r1 decrease say this month jn h1.s income from last month all he has to clo is aon)y to the office 1n Marvstown or in Trepa ssev and his rent will he lowered? t!R , FA!ll,F.: Yes, that 1.s r ip;ht. MR.. ROBl~ll.TS: t.ook . there is a t-4j.nj ste r of llousin~ and there 1.s a Hin ist er of l\nerr.v.

As .John niefen ,haKer once s-'lirl , "When T am after h:l,p; game" like the l~i n;ls t er of llousin(!. , J do. not want to hP distracted by rahhiti; like the l,finister of r·np r gv . Tf the "1.n:l.11ter of 1-lousin~ could he c,erm:I tted hv hi s colleaP,Ue , who has alreadv told uR th11t the Minist e r of l'ons .inr 1R 11 p;oo<l mir.i i;ter - i.f the 'fin1.i;ter -,f Jtous In(!. could 1'e 11llowed to ans1.•er thP nuei;t:ton, T am !'lure '-'<' would re fu-rther ahead .

T 111ean :Is that all "' tenant has t o clo - to wallc in with hi.s lat e!lt nav c heQue, his stat<mPnt. of earninStR ancl he is el:fp,ihl.e to have Ms r ent lowerecl on a month to month hasis? l,11), f,'fl llLF: Tt mui;t be o hv1.ous to the Hon . Leader of the nnno:dt1.on that the l•lous:fnp. Author ity, as such, do not know unless 1.t 1.s nresented to them when a man' s i ncome <Irons, 4530 .. ~ -.. ~-

'j :ipe ,in. 1371 _;'.-1 -- J unless he takes the trouble to apply, says that as his income has dropped he wants a decrease in rent, therefore if he does so it will certainly be given proper consideration. MR. ROBERTS: I thank the minister, Mr. Speaker. That is on a month by month - I mean this is an important point, a month by month basis. Well a further supplementary then, Sir, does that include overtime pay or is it ··the man's basic income for his job? MR. EARLE: No. This is on total income. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question.

Would include the income of other people who are living in the House other than the person's own familyl MR. EARLE: That is sometimes very difficult to determine, Mr. '. !inlster. MR. NEARY: I am not a niuister. Please give me the salary if you are going to refer to me as the minister. MR. EARLE: For the honourable member for Bell Island then, this is very difficult to determine but in theory it is supposed to apply to the total income of the family. If there are other people living in that House and earning pay it is supposed to apply to the total income going into that family, MR.

NEARY: "IR, Speaker, could I fling a question over at my new-born friend over there, the Minister of Transportation and Communications1 I wonder if the minister would tell the House if he has met a delegation from Point of Bay and what the results of their discussions were concerning the road down there? MR. HICKEY: No, Mr. Speaker, I have not met the delegation. If they were in this morning I was at other meetings .and if it is today the honourable gentleman is talking about, I have no recollection of that particular delegation. I have met that many in the lut few months it is possible that it escapes me. MR.

NEARY: Could the minister indicate if the delegation from Point of Bay met with any government official, any Minister of the Crown? MR. HICKEY: I am afraid, Mr. Speaker, I do not know. As I have 4531

April 29, 1974 Tape No. 1371 ;,,rM - 2 said, there are so many delegations I do not keep track of them - MR. NEARY: Anybody in the minister's department? ~. HICKEY: I am not aware. !1R. NEARY: Any officials~ MR. HICKEY: Here again, Mr, Speaker, if I am at other meetings and not in my office I have no way to know, at least not for a few hours what delegations my own officials meet. MR. NEARY: Well I am sure there are times when Your Honour wishes he could speak in this House.

Sir, I would like to ask the same minister if he had any representation from people in Change Islands regarding a changing of road down there to cut the operating time. of the ferry? MR, lllCKEY: Yes we have, Mr. Speaker. We have met with a delegation and we have hel~ discussions with a number of people from time to time regarding the problem. There is a little more involved in the Change Islands people.

We have met the people from the Community of Frederickton, I believe we have met with people frore Fogo, the whole area,with regards to the ferry,that services, Change Islands is involved in this and to build a road and change the area where that ferry docked affects more than the Change Island people so there is nothing I can say other than that matter is under consideration and it will depend on what cost is involved, It will depend on the views and feelings as expressed by the other people involved as to what the eventual outcome will be. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Fogo, CAPT. WINSOR: Mr.

Speaker, may I direct a question? My honourable colleague here undertook to ask this question on Friday when I was absent from the House,but has the delegation from Change Islands arranged to have another meeting with the honourable ministerl I understand they are coming in within a day or so. MR. HICKEY: I understand, Mr. Speaker, that there is a delegation coming in. I am not quite sure as to what particular subject they wish to discuss but as I have indicated we have already discussed 4538

April 29, 1974 Tape No. 1371 NM - 3 the matter of the ferry, and relocating that ferry. I have already discussed the matter of the roads and indeed the problems pertaining to roads generally with a delegation already. CAPT. WINSOR: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 13ut the honourable minister will meet them if they come in ? I have not been asked to make an appointment for the simple rea~on I suppose they knew I was out of town, but if they arrive here I would suspect the minister would _arrange to see them. MR. HICKEY: Always, Mr.

Speaker, I never refused to see any delegation indeed any individual as long as I am in the office, Unless I am at a meeting outside the office, I would be more. than happy to. MR. THOMS: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, in view of the statement which he made earlier on this afternoon and in view of the reports as pertains to the Reid land in the Shoal Harbour Area, I understand that the reservoir that the town is counting on for their supply of water in that area is within the Reid Limits and I was wondering how soon the minister would have some legislation before the House to offset or to at least slow down the sale of this land, as I not~ that in the Forestry Task Force Report, they recommended that a policy be immediately developed.

Also,while the minister is on his feet, could the ministe~ also inform this honourable House if he plans on taking any action as to the sale of Reid lot in the Indian Bay Area'l I understand I believe it is Reid lot 242 is up for sale and there is also a buyer and the buyer in this case I believe the grant or the lease, whatever Reid has, takes in the land right to the river bank and that the buyer is planning on setting up a private fishing river there. I believe he takes in something like four or five miles of good salmon river and many of the people in the area are very upset about this.

So I wonder if the minister could also comment on this one? MR. MAYNARD: Mr. Speaker, as I stated earlier in the day, we have 4539

April 29, 1974 Tape No. 1371 NM - 4 no way within the laws of this land whereby we can prevent the sale of this land, or any other part of Newfoundland where we can prevent the sale of private land, We are working on legislation but it is not as simple as drafting a bill and bringing it bdore the House within two or three days.

We are looking at a situation that has developed over some 400 years in Newfoundland's history and you just cannot correct any mistakes, that have been done over those 400 years as far as land use is concerned, overnight, We do have people working on policy and legislation for presentation to the House but it cannot be done throur:hout the next two or three months.

We can ask for and we will ask for and try to investigate as much as possible the proposed sale ·of the land in any area of the province but of course the people who are selling it and the people who are buying it do not have to give us that information. It is completely up to them because we cannot require them under law to do so. As far as taking in the land that is used for a reservoir for any community,I would assume that if the community is incorporated into either a community council, town or local improvement district or whatever, they will control the use of the land within that municipality.

Certainly all municipalities do. If they are not incorporated I think the people in the community if they are deeply concerned about this should find possibly some way whereby Municipal Affairs could control that land because certainly a reservoir area would be very important to their futur£. However from a departmental point of view or a government point of view there is no possible way that we can force people to hold the sale of private land.

We can possibly implement controls and we will be looking at that possibility but there is no legislation on the books now that enables us to control the sale or even to demand that people register it. That is the situation and there is nothing more I can say about it. 4540

April 29, 1974 Tape No. 1371 NM - 5 MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Sometime ago the minister implemented a land freeze policy here in the St. John's Area. I wonder could he implement such a policy as far as these two areas are concerned to stop the sale of these two tracks of land? MR. MAYNARD: I have no idea, Mr. Speaker, whether the act that we use to impose controls in the Area of St.

John's would apply to another area such as Shoal Harbour but when I said that we would look at the possibility of controls I meant specifically that, that we would be looking at the possibility of controlling the use of 111e land. Now that of course does not say that we can control the sale of the land. MR. NEARY: Of course he can. That is what he is doing down here. '-ffi. MAYNARD: :fo. AN HON. MEMBER: Yes, he is. ~- MAYNARD: Mr. Speaker, the controls that are imposed in the St. John's Area do not prevent the sale of land from one private person to another or any other way.

It merely says that the land can only be used for a certain purpose. Now as far as the acreage that is involved in tl1e proposed land sale and I do not have specifics yet,that is being talked about, the acreage will come within the ambit of the new forestry legislation and under that legislation our authority will be broad enough to control the use of the lancl,but that legislation has to be passed by the House first of course. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question.

Could the minister not do the same thing that the government did in the case of the BRINCO take over, in a matter of hours bring in emergency legislation to deal with this matter? Gould the minister not do that? That could be done tomorrow. MR. MAYNARD: That was not done in a matter of hours. Mr. Speaker, I do not know of any precedent set by governments anywhere and there may be and there may very well be - MR. NEARY: Yes, Prince Edward Island did it. 4541

April 29, 1974 Tape No. 1371 NM - 6 MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. MAYNARD: Where a piece of legislation was passed in the House of Assembly to prevent the sale of one sale of one lot of private land. I MR. NEARY: There is more than one sale involved. MR. MAYNARD: The legislation is usually of fairly general application. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister, Would the minister tell us what has happened to the committee? Would the minister tell us what has happened to the committee that was set up to purchase the Reid property that the minister told us about several months ago?

MR. MAYNARD: Simply this, Mr. Speaker,. that when the Reid people decided they might want to sell the land at a realistic cost to the Government of Newfoundland, I think negotiatior.s would become active but we have no intention now nor in the future of paying tens of million dollars of the public money for land that is not worth it. 'iR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, are we then to understand that negotiations between the government on one hand and the Reid interests on the other have broken down and are no longer proceeding on any basis? ~R. MAYNARD: No.

No. t,IR~~ Well then perhaps the minister could clarify because certainly the impression his statement gives is that the negotiations have broken down, have broken on this issue of price. HR. MAYNARD: I did not say that negotiations have broken down, Mr. Speaker, what I said was that we were not willing to consider paying the amount of money that is now being asked by Reid Newfoundland Company. The committee is still active. They have been in contact with the Reid people on several occasions over the past few months.

We are still willing to sit down and talk realistically with them but we are not willing to talk on the basis that so far has been talked by the Reid Newfoundland Company Limited. 454,

'.nril 29, 19711. Tape 1372 (Afternoon) RE - l MR. ROBERTS : l thank the minister but so we are clear on this: Mr. Speaker, the r.overnment have rej ec te<l the Reid request for $30 million or $40 millions as the press would have it but the government are still willing to entertain another request from Reid at a substantially lower levels but no request has been forthcoming, no offer has been forthcoming. So in effect then while negotiations may not have broken down they are not proceeding. Is that a correct svnonym?

The point is unless Reid's take some further initiative the government are not going to be buying that land. MR. MAYNARD: That is baaicaJly. If there has been another proposal pr· ·,ented by the Reid people that the committee is looking at now from the initial thing that I have seen of it, from the initial look at it, it does not appear to be all that realistic. Maybe with further negotiations we can come to some sort of a consensus of opinion. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supp]ementary question: Would the minister indicate when the last meeting took place between the cnmmi ttee .~nd the Reid Company?

Was it in the last few weeks/ The last few months? When was the last meeting held? Does the minister know? Or does the minister know anything that goes on in his department? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. MAYNARD: Okay, get the answer somewhere else . MR . NE~ No, Mr. Speaker, I want to get the answer from the minister . The minister speaks for the department . AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: When did the last meeting take place? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: If the minister is not going to answer - MR.

NEARY: No, hold on, I want to get, I am trying to get an answer out of the minister. Has he just become, suddenly become tongue-tied? MR. MAYNARD: MR. NEARY: 4543 Well, the honourable member _just said - Sulking! Is the minister sulking or what?

April 29, 1974. Tape 1372 (Afternoon) RH - 2 MR. MAYNARD: The honourable member just said I did not know any- thing that goes on in the department, so therefore I do not know when the, la.st meetinp: was, MR. NEARY: ------ No, Mr. Speaker, Obviously he is sulking, Mr. Speaker. I asked the minister to tell me when the last meeting took place between Reids and the committee, Is tlu! minister goi-ng to give the House the Jnformation or is he p:oing to sit there and brood and sulk? MR. MAYNARD: Formal meetings have taken place. I do not have the exact date.

I know that correspondence has been exchanged between the officials that are on the committee and Reids over the past few months as it has been over the past year or so since we have been in negotiations, The exact date of the last formal meeting, I have not got the date here with me now but the committee has heen in contact with Reids on various occasions. MR. SPEAKER: I assure the honourable Leader of the Opposition that this will probahly will be the last question for the day.

The oral question period started at three-thirty o'clock and by the new rules it is_ to end thirty minutes from that which would he right lit four o'clock. MR. ROBERTS: Mr, Speaker, if I may have leave to go on for a moment or two: I think this is an important subject. I wonder if the minister could indicate, there have been meetings apparently recently, when will this matter come to an end?

Because if the Reids are going to start selling their land, as apparently they have the right to do, not apparently - they do have the right to do, then the negotiations, we may end up attempting to buy areas of land in this Province that are really not the choice areas, This Shoal Harbour Valley and the Indian River, these are among the choice parcels, As Your Honour knows, Mr. Speaker, and as the minister I think would confirm, most of the choice parcels acquired by the Reids over the years, in terms of building a railwav, have already been alienated, The Bowaters limits were mainly acquired from Reid.

Price have considerable limits which they have bought from Reid, you know, cash transactions over the years. 4544

April 29, 1974. Tape 1372 (Afternoon) RH - 3 So is the matter going to come to a relatively quick conclusion? Because if not the danger is that we will end up neP,otiating about nothing at all because there will be nothing left worth having. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Premier. MR. F.D. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, I would like just very briefly to comment on this discussion. Now, I suppose the question and answer really has been going on for some minutes. First of all, the forestry legislation that is being introduced which wilJ take some time before it comes into full play was designed partially with this in mind.

The Land Tenure Bill which will be cominr, ~ertainly is designed with this in mind for particularly absentee landlords, unoccupied land holdings that are not being develop~~. The whole emphasis of the government on that, before the end of this year both in the land tenure and from a forestry point of view, will be eventually a mineral field as well. We will be totally in control of these people for all intents and purposes. There will be no land speculation as such.

Anyone buying land here,such as the rumoured sale for 14,000 acres,is doing so with some degree of uncertainity and we can certainly tell them that;because in a retroactive way or if they do not develop that land or if they do not tell us how they are going to develop it they will be in for what I would _think would be in time a fairly substantial tax. I am sure that people are buying land with that in mind.

I think they may he talking about it for speculation but certainly it is a govern­ ment policy to make sure thl\t l:rnd 1 s not bom~ht by speculators for sale but rather any land, certainly large quantities of lands for putting them in meaningful production for the Province. MR. SPEAKER: I point out to honourable members that the question period has expired. Does the House grant leave· for the question period to extend beyond the ordinary rules? MR. MARSHALL: It has gone on for half an hour. It has gotten into the nature of a debate. There will be a half an hour again tomorrow 4545

April 29, 1974. Tape 1372 (Afternoon) RH - 4 and we have the budget to do, so I think we will go on now with Orders of the Day. ORDERS OF THE DAY: On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply. Mr. Speaker left the Chair, COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY: MR. CHAIRMAN (Stagg) : Order, please! Shall 1601-01 carry? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Not quite yet, Sir. MR. CHAIRMAN: For the information of honourable gentlemen, we have presently used twenty-seven hours and twenty-nine minutes. MR. ROBERTS: The clock is now running as of now. MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable the Minister of Rural Development.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! HON. J. REID: Mr. Chairman, in reference to the bill referred to by the member from Bell Island in the House of Assembly on Friday, April 26, 1974 ~egarding the hiring of my company's equipment from May 21 to May 31, 1973 for the amounts of $776.00 and $926.00, Mr. Chairman, I would like to refer to various correspondence and that,that we had with the water and sewerage committee down in Sibley's Cove and Lead Cove. The committee put out tenders to various people, several people.

This reads: "The committee does not bind itself to accept the lowest of any tender. We are now ready to install in both communities a water line measuring approximately 9,000 feet. This project will be carried out under the supervision of the Department of Community and Social Development and our funds are limited. We are now see~ing from various backhold owners and operators bids or cost performance for this work, We will accept offers in three forms, cost of digging and back-filling the approximate 9,000 feet, In other words, an esti111ate of what you would do that could complete -job four.

Secondly an hourly rate of hire for the machines. Please give us as near as you can the number of footage your machine could dig 4540 ...

April 29, 1974. Tape 1372 (Afternoon) RH - 5 i.n a ten hour day for this rate. 'thirdly, hire of machine -er foot of ditch clur.. You may make an offer for one of the both ways. You may make as offer of all three of the both ways. Your reoly must he in my possession at three P.M. on Wednesday, Anr.ust 26, 1972." Sip:ned by Regional .Rut ton, Secretary-TrP<1surer of the Water Committee down in Sibley ' s Cove and Lead Cove. Mr. Chairman, Charles 1'hrone from New Harbour, "To whom it may conc ern, Charles Thor ne was the person who received that contract .

In Aup.ust, 19.72, I was awarded a contract for a water line , bv the Sibley's Cove ancl Leacl Cove Water Suppl y Committee. nne to mechanical ,t 1 f fi.c ulties with my back-hold, 1 hacl to withdraw from the contract early in 1973 . This is ohvions,that tenders were call ed for that particular line contract. For additional information connected 4547

April 29, 1974 Tape 1373 (Afternoon) IB-1 with the above statement, please contact the undersigned. Yours Truly, Charles Thorne. 11 The people of Sihlevs Cove and Lead Cove were very hurt, very disturbed when they read anrl hearrl over the air about the Sibleys Cove job and how I was connec:ted with this and the part of being accused of conflict of interest.

"To whom it may concern: In reference to statements made in the April 27 edition of the 'Evening Telegram' in answer to the honourable member for Bell Island concerninp. allocation of funds to Lead Cove - Sibleys Cove Water Commi.ttce, we wj sh to make the fol lowing statement: ''The first money ~•as allocatPd not by the Hon, .Tames Reid but by the Liberal Government in co-operation with Captain Stric ldand, A letter to this effect is dated Jun e 29, 1971. ';First materials arrived on s:l te October 25, 19 71 • Before we could begin frost set in and we were unable to nroceerl.

In August, 1972, the approval to spend a~ain was given to our committee. At that time tenders were sent out to several companies. Three companies replied, Cranford and Thorne, New Harbour, Trinit y Bay; Qulnland Bros., Bay De Verde and James J, Reid & Son, Limited, Hearts Delight, The contract was awarded to Cranford and Thorn for the following rates: " Ditching sixty cents per foot, maximum $12 per hour. • Work was started by Cranford September 25, 1972, and continued throughout until Octoher 20, 1972. Due to mechanical difficulties he was unable to continue.

On November 7, ] 9 72, a dozer owned b.y Lew Reid, C:reens Harbour, was used to prepare the site for the bunk house. In January, 1973 we were awarded a LIP Grant and we again contacted Cranford and Thorne to continue the work. We were informed that the terrain of the area made it impossible for us to use a back-hoe of the type owned by him. By mutual agreement his contract was terminated, "After careful consideration by the commission we decided the best type of machine was the type owned by James G. Reid and Son. 4548 .... ,

April 29, 1974 Taoe 1373 rn-2 / '~ Then we went to "!r, Reid's company and asketl if we could hirC' his equipment to complete our project. He agreed to do so and his equipment was used to complete the joh. " Number three, repayment of hills ustnp; provincial government funds at the heginring of the _joh, 1°71. We were informed to submit invoices to thC' appropriate department of government.

The first department was the Department of Community and Social Development and then the Department of "'unicipal Affairs and Housing. '' Numher four, at no t:lme did anv department of r.overnmcnt any person connected with government sup;gest thr1t we do business with any particular company. This ·was always the decision of <>ttr committee, Wilfred Rut ton, Ch,drman, ;lep;inal.d Button, Secretary Treasurer." }Ir. Chairman, this can do a trcmenrlous lot of rlama11:c to ,Tames G. Feid and Son Limited all over Newfound] and and Labrador. I have worked all over Newfoundland and Labrador with my equipment.

ThiR tyne of information which Rometimes you can never offset when you are accused,and worldnr, in government as I am, of tryinr. to 1.nfl .uence various jobs, I certainly think that any member in this House should certainly p;et the facts hefore they start and hcfore they try to crucify some of us. I certainly, in this case, Sir, am as innocent as any human being possibly could. For thirty years I have owned construction businesses, not only just in construction work, which are well known.

Thankfully these businesses have prospered with a l:lttle hard work and a lot of sweat. f;ly businesses were known before ever T thought of entering politics. I have made no attempt to hide them since I have heen elected to the !louse of Assemblv. There i.s no reason because a lot of people throu11:hout Newfoundland knew James r,, "Peid and Son Limited, knew the business because I have travelled from Port aux Basques right into St. John's and worked through most all the Trans-Canada and various other roads and various other construction .1 obs besides that. 4549

April 29, 1974 Tape 1373 IB-3 These industries are not only known by residents in around my home hut, as I just said, throughout Newfoundland. The opposition has made public two hills of my company through the Water Line r.ommit tee of Lea<l Cove, Sibleys Cove and Trin:1 ty Bay for the hire of two of my pieces of equipment in Mav of 1g73. {Tse of this equipment was requested like J said by the commi.t tee to the manager of my company who has been lookini! after my business since I entered the cabinet.

By the way, my business is being looked after by my people, my operators, my man at home and I will assure you I am not the part-time minister th8t a lot of people think I am right here or are trying to convince the general public of Newfoundland. I have devoted my time, I have devoted everything to this position I have at the present time. '!'his is a simple explanation.

The c11sto1'ler rerruestetl the use of my company's services, Is there anything wrong with thatl In the usual manner these services were supplied and I might say they were supplied in the same manner that my company has worked for customers over the years, exactly the same thing. The committee may have obtained the money from the government to pay the bills in the same w11y as any other like committee or council may obtain :I ts funds.

The government had nothing to do with the rental of my erru:f.pment and the runninp; up of the small bill since this decision was cerudnly th11t of the Water T,ine Committee, I will go a little further to and I will assure them that Sibleys Cove and Lead Cove today are very, very pleased that James G. Reid and Son Limited went in there an<l got them out of a hell of a jam. I will say it just like that too. I never attempted in any way to influence the renting of the equipment. Furthermore, I would never attempt to influence the granting of my benefits from government to myself or to my company.

Indeed I would dismiss any employee who attempted to improperly use any influence. I mean that too. t may have as a result of my connections with government, therefore, absolutely nothing wrong with this transaction despite 4550

April 29, 1Q74 Tape 1373 the efforts of the memher from Hell Island to show otherwise. I am honestly trying to do the hest ioh that I am capable, .~ c: Minister of Pura] Development, to do. lit the same time, while I no longer take an ac-tual

part in the clay- to - <lay manai?ement of IB-l, my business, This business is continuing mainly under the direction of 4551

April 29, 1974 Tape no. 1374 Page 1 - MW the employees who are preserving my business, which was honestly built by hard work and is being conducted in a fair, open and honest manner, without any political influence - I assure anyone of that right now. MR, NEARY: Mr. Chairman, all that the honourable minister has proven, Sir, or has done is admitted - MR. EVANS: You are a scuml MR. NEARY: Hr. Chairman, I demand that the "Burp from Burgeo" retract that statement, Sir. MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stagg): Order please! MR. EVANS: (Inaudible). MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stagg): Order please! MR. EVANS: I will not, MR. NEARY: Yes. MR.

CHAIRMAN (Mr. St agg ): Order please: I suggest to the Hon. Member for Burgeo LaPoile that his remarks are unkindly, perhaps intemperate and I suggest that he refrain from interjections of this type in the future. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I demand that the member retract it, It is unparliamentary, Sir. MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stagg): The honourable member can demand what he likes, the Chair will enforce the rules as it sees fit, MR, NEARY; HR. ROBERTS: Why not the enforce the same rules for this side and that side? On a point of order, Mr. Chairman: The Hon.

Member for Burgeo LaPoile, everybody in the committee heard him, he was not speaking in a loud whisper nor in a low voice, quite distinctly shouted, "scum." The honourable gentleman is entitled to his opinion just as we are to ours, Sir, but I submit that that word is unparliamentary. I do not have the Beauchesne citation here but if Your Honour will give me a second, I shall find it. Your Honour may have it ready at hand.

I suggest, Sir, that the gentleman from Burgeo is out of order in using such a word and I would ask that Your Honour ask him to withdraw it in accordance with the precedents of the House, It is Citation 149, Sir, page 127 and lZu, 455, ft

April 29, 1974 Tape no. 1374 Page MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stagg): Certainly the word is not one that adds anything to the dignity of this House and probably the honourable member might - it is very difficult to ask him to rephrase his remarks - he might wish to make some statement concerning them. While the citation does not immediately present it - MR. ROBERTS: It is 155, Your Honour, page 130 - 2 MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stagg): There are a list of unparliamentary phrases there. The actual one used by the honourable member does not present itself I do not think.

I suggest that the honourable member might .:cphrase his remarks. MR. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I retract to the extent that it may not be scum but it sounded a lot like it. MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Chairman, that is not satisfactory. I submit to Your Honour that the honourable member does not: have any choice but to withdraw that remark or, Sir, we may as well turn the House into a tavern, have a free-for-all. i1R. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stagg): The honourable member has made a diligent attempt to or what he terms to be a diligent attempt to rephrase his remarks.

However, there is another rule in the House (It is not a rule of procedure) that a person may not by inference - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. CHAIRM.AN (Mr. Stagg): That is correct. A person may not say indirectly what he is not allowed to say directly. I think this may in fact be what the honourable member has attempted to do. I suggest to the honourable member that he might again consider his position and maybe rephrase his remarks a little further. MR. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, the Member for Bell Island, has stated that we are trying to turn this House, the honourable House, into a tavern brawl.

I would suggest that that is what he was trying to do with his accusations against the Minister of Rural Development. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman - MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stagg): Order please! 4553

April 29, 1974, Tape no. 1374 Page 3 MR. CHAIRMAN: (Mr. Stagg): The honourable member is a personal friend of mine and I suggest that the honourable member, while he may not wish to withdraw, may dig himself a rather deep hole if in his desire to get his remarks on the record - the remarks are unparliamentary. The Chair did hear them. I have to call upon the honourable member now to withdraw the remarks without equivocation. MR. EVANS: Okay, Mr. Chairman, I withdraw in favour of the "Angel · from Bell Island." MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stags): That is parliamentary, I think, MR. ROBERTS: MR.

NEARY: No thanks to the Premier. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Now, Sir, as I started td say, all the Minister of Rural Development did, Sir, was to admit to the statements that I made in the honourable House the other day. There were no charges nor insinuations nor accusations, Sir. The statements I made were stright statements of fact. The minister has admitted that what I said was true. The minister gave a few more details and a few more facts • I submit, Mr. Chairman, that it is not good enough for ministers of the crown to pound their breasts and say, "Lord I am pure:" That is not good enough, Sir.

In several instances now in this honourable House, we have had all the situations develop that had all the appearance of conflict of interest, Obviously, Mr. Chairman, the government does not intend to do anything about it. There is nothing I can do, I cannot beat the minister over the head. I suggested to the minister the other day that in his own best interests he should table the documentation in this honourable House, I asked the minister to produce the tender calls, to produce the correspondence between his department and the water line in Sibleys Cove. MR. REID: It was not my department - MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, it was the minister's department. It was, Sir. The minister already told us, MR. REID: 1971? 4554

April 29, MR . NEARY: MR. REID: MR. NEARY: MR. REID: 1974 Tape no. 1374 No, August 26,1972. It was 1971 when it started. Mr. Chairman, 1971 was when - I was not there August, 1972. Page 4 MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, as far as I know, in 1971, the project was commenced, There was a certain amount of money allocated to commence the project, It was continued on, every year, ever since, 1971, 1972 and 1973, Each year that water line committee has to go back to the minister and ask for additional funds. MR. REID: NEARY: No, they do not have to go back every year, That is what they do have to, Mr. Chairman.

In the beginning, in 1971, Sir, thert was no specific allocation for that project, MR. REID: Point of order, Mr, Chainnan, MR, NEARY: Well, okay, tell us but wait until I am finished. AN HON, MEMBER: Mr. Chairman, point of order, MR, NEARY: All right, point of order, go ahead, MR. REID: The point of order is that the honourable gentleman is actually trying to tell the House now that they gave a contract out and at a certain time later on to me.after the first year they started. As I read there, Charles Thorne was the first man to bid on the job.

Charles Thorne was the man who was still called the second year when it started up after the frost - not looking for extra monies. AN HON, MEMBER: (Inaudible), MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stagg): Order please: The honourable minister is rising on a point which is basically a point of disagreement between two honourable members. Points of order are procedural matters and do not extend themselves to matters of disagreement as to facts or

interpretation of facts. MR. NE&RY: Mr. Chairman, my understanding of the minister's explanation is that tenders were called more than once, Tenders were called in 1971 and again in - well the minister told us. The 4555

April 29, 1974 Tape no, 1374 Page 5 minister told us that in 1972, October, 1972, three firms; Quinlan Brothers, James Reid, Cranford and Thome submitted a tender, Well the water vote was under the minister's department at that time. Al~ HON. ME~IBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Let us get our facts straight. Was not the water authority, the authority for that money,was not the water money under the minister's department in October, 1972? ...:.'1R• REID: MR. NEARY: MR. REID: MR. NEARY: No! Where was it? I was not even a minister then. Was he minister then? MR. ROBERTS: "Aubrey Senior" was minister. MR.

RErn: "Aubrey" was there. When it first started, it was the Member for White Bay South, AN HON. MEMBER: Take it all back now and apologize. MR. NEARY: Okay, that is fair enough, MR. REID: There was only one contract called . MR. NEARY: Then the minister came in in December and then what happend? The contract to Cranford and Thorne - the minister had only been in less than a month when they said that they could not meet their contract because the equipment was in bad shape. Then the minister came into the picture, the minister's firm came into oicture, January, 1973. That is right. MB.

REID: That was Municipal Affairs then. MR. NEARY: The bills - MR. REID: That was Municipal Affairs. MR. NEARY: In January,1973? MR. REID: Yes, AN HON. MEMBER: No! No! MR, REID: Yes it was. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, there is only one way, only one way in my opinion to get this whole unfortunate situation cleared up and I 4550

April 29, 1974 Tape no. 1374 ' Page 6 Will put: this p.roposal to the couunittee: That tile Auditor General be asked to thoroughly investigate this whole matter, the same as he does in any other matters that are brought to his attention , and produce the facts, give us the f acts in the House. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: No, he will not automatically, Sir. MR. REID: Am I allowed to bid on a contract 4557

April 2Q, 1974 Tane 1375 (Afternoon) PK - l any more or not? MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I could not care less, I could not care less, ~:Ir, accord:lnr,- to the M"!n:lster of Finance, "Ministers can do as they nlease.' "There is no conflict of 1.nterest," the Minister of Finance told us the other dav. The Premier told us, a vear ago, that a minister wher h:ls comnany is <loin!? business with his deoartment, he takes off his hat, he steps aside for twenty-four hours, the deal is negotiated, the contract is let and then he goes hack into his denartment again. Phat k:1.nd of nonsensf' is that, Sir?

The Minister of Fi.mmce s:i,,s , "Oh, thiR is perfectly le,dtimate . '-'in:I !'lters," he said, "who have bus:l.ness can do huRiness with the p.overnment providing there is no undue pressure, no persuasion, no influence used." The mere fact that a man is a minister is influence enough. They just cannot nound their breasts and say, •·we are innocent: We are pure!" MR. RORF.RTS: It does not matter ~•hether it is his denartment or not, his colleagues or hi.s l-iuddies have been Aworn - MR. NEARY: That is ri~ht. Thev are all brothers- in-arms,they are all buddies. So, Mr.

Chairman, I am not satisfied and every word the minister said,I do not disagree with one thing that the minister said hut I am not satisfied, Sir, with the explanation. I am not satisfied with the way this business is being transacted. I am going to suggest to the Committee,and the minister should get up and support it because it is in the minister's interest to get this matter cleared up and to ask the Auditor General to do a thorough investigation into it and make a complete report to this honourable Committee. MR. CHAIR}o(AN: The honourable 'Minister without Portfolio. MR. W.W.

MARSHALL (MINISTER WITHOUT PC'RTFOLIO): 'Mr. Chairman, what utter nonsense! The Hon. Minister of Rural nevelopment - there were certain statements made last Friday which could or could not have impugned the integr1 ty of the honourable mini.ster. The honourable mi.ni ster has come back today with a perfectlv rational,reasonahle and cogent 4558

April 29, lll74 Tape 1375 (Afternoon) PK - 2 ' exnlanation of the whole situation before thts ComrnittPP. T i::av that his word and hi i: statements are certainlv clear. We are certainly entitlerl to take the man's word and his statements and therP. is ahsolutP.lV on the facts here no confl:lct of :Interest. How can there tie anv conflict of interest? There was a hid bv a water committee, an. 1nvitat1on to l-iid hv an tndel"endent ~~ater co1'11!1:f ttee. The honour ah lP minister's comnanv ca111e in and dealt with the water comm1.ttee.

It hacl no relationship with the government at all, the awarrlfng .whatever the af(reerrent wa5 with resnect to the small hit of worl-: that was involved. Certainly this type of wo·d, is not goinr to make or breRk the honourable minister's com1rnnv, if anything, he is prohah]y rloing it for a small amount, as thi,s is a very, verv, 5mal l i.tem of his business. TherP. was ab5ol utel v no i:onf li ct of interest here.

Now the statements whi.ch are made hPre l--v the hononrah]e Memher for Bell Island, which he has made,are tynical of the tvnPS of statPments that have heen made anrl the attemnts that h11.Ve heen made hv the onnoii:I tion to naint this side of the RousP. black, as black as thev think they were when thev were in government. Rut, Mr. Speaker, it will not work. We heard the honourahle ~emher for Bell Islanrl commenting here on a very simple matter, get up and make statements with respect to the Hon, "'1:f.niRter of Social Service1=1 recentlv and the J1on.

Minister of Fisheries in relation to Mutual Life, awarcl of a contract of Lahrador Linerboard Mill - we heard the other day. Now the only reason for making this type of statement is purely and simply for the purpose of casting some type of innuendo on the persons concerned and a most unfair innuendo at that. The honourable ~'emher for Bell Island if he had heen acting nronerlv anr:l if he had been acting in a way that they would do in any other 1urisdiction, as any other respons:f ,hle neonJe in a leii;islature would have done in an instance like this, t••ould have gone to the Hon.

J~inister of Rural T1evelonment with it, nassed in the h:f.Jls, afforded the minister an opnortunitv for the purpose of making a replv,and in some cases a pri.vate reply i!l quite enough. 4559

April 29, 1974 Tape 1375 (Afternoon) PK - 3 If the private reply of an honourable person like the minister and his explanatior, were given and it were not accepted nrivately, well the receiver of it, as far as I am concerned, needs a good shot of intelligence, if there is such a thing avajlable,brcause his statement is absolutely nure and certainlv reasonable. There is nothing wrong with this. There was ahsolutely nothinl!; wrong with the arrangements with the water committee which was entirely outside of govert1ment, made entirely at a tjme when he was not mi.nister.

The questi.on comes up and :l.t has bl"!en indicated :1.n a nosi.tion such as the honourable minister relation to construction work·~ AN HON. MEMllER: Inaudible. should he have hid on anything w:lth MP.

J.!AltSJ-lALL: Yes, that onens a verv w:lde auestion and I can understat1d neonle making that ohservation, particularly if the peonle hil!)pen to have been horn with a silver spoon in the1r mouths and have $1 million or ssnn,rinn in their back pocket or in the other instance, if a person have absolutely sweet nothing in his hack nocket at all and nothing necessarily to go back to excent pol:!. tics, or if the nerson concerned hannen to he somebody who was dr11gp.;ed into politics right from high Rchool or from university or what have you and knows ahsolutlelv nothing else.

But what is the nerson like the honourahle minister . and many other peonle who have huilt up bv the sweat of their brow a good business to do when he comes into politics, Get rid of it comnletelv? Or act as reasonable, rational men as the honourable minister has done and will continue to do so? Here is a man who has been a succesR in h:1.s own private life, who has come into politics, and this party and this government have been very, very delighted to have a person such as the Minister of Rural neveloT1me.nt come into the p:overnment.

He has come in, he has been the leading force in the formulation of the Department of Rural nevelonment and has done a marvelous job with respect to same. He has done :1.t at the sacrifice of many of his own private interests, as many people who have come into government with interest, so what should he do? Has he becaus_e he comes into Politics to give. evervthing up? I sav, no, what he has got to do 4560 ~-

Anril ?.(), 1974 Tane 1175 (Afternoon) PK - 4 ;md what the conflict of interest legislation comtemplates is he reveals '!,hat interest he has. Then it is onen to the public to ask questions with resnect to any ~atter arisin11 v:l.th respect to hjs dealings. When he gets un and reveals, as in this matter, on an onen nuhlic tender, with a comoletelv indenendent committee,:md acts in a reasonahle wav. there is al,solutelv nothinit wrong with it. Otherwtse, Mr.

Chairman, i.t would he 1ust a!'l well to leave politics onen onlv to the neonle, aa I !'lav, who have $1 million to stash awav in their hack nocket or have nothinp ahsolutelv notli1np. in material wealth or mwthing at all to come into noli t:f cs hecau!'le the feJ 1-ow i. . 1- C\tween._ the micldle -man .-ho has •-•orked UP h:I s nosi tion from the s1,re,1t of h.1.s o~m hrow had hetter forpt>t involvemPnt in rmhlic aff11ir!'l in this nrovince. That :ls the situation here. This exnlanation r:lven hv the honourahle mi.n:I ster as far Ml T am concern eel iA a more than reasona1'1e and rational one.

It :In no wav indicates thllt hf' has rlonc anyth:lnp, imnrorier. As II matter of. fact, it 1nr1:lcRte!l that he has acted Pror,erlv all the wav through. To suggest that it he referrer1 tn thP Aurlitnr General is there again another device on the part of the opposition to :f.ndicate that there mirht be somethinr, eJ se 1n this that reouires further exr,la.nat1on and further investigat:fon,and it certainly noPs not.

Now the onnosition have spent, as I have indicated. scme twent y­ ei.p,ht hours and. 1 suggest that we nas!!l to more imnortant thinps th;m this nart:lcular issue that has been certainlv well explained anrl well disn"sed of. Tt :l R ahsolutelv r1 diculous as far as 1 am concern eel and it is 1trnt ourelv and simply anothPr little under-the-tahle attempt hy innuendo and otherwise to r,aint a nerfectl v necent, resnons:lble memher of th1 s AssemhJv black 9 for the sakP. of chean, pettv, nolitical exned:1 .encv. AN HON. ME'-'BFll: Pear! Hear! MR. CHATP!-!AN: 'l'he honourah1e t.1'ember for Jlerrn:ltaJ?e. rm ..

R. 8P1}10NS: Mr, Chairman, first of aJ], ~dthout anoearing to ouest1on a rulinp, or that of the Chair's impartiality, I was surprised that the minister who 1ust snake was allowed to infer all kinds of motives. 4561

Anr:11 29, 1974 Tape 1375 (Afternoon) PK - 5 about innuendo and under the table and th1tt kind of a thing. It is the languap.e that he ie very canahle of, of course - l-lll. MA?'SllALL: nn a point of order, Mr. Chainnan. '!'he honourahle and new Member for 'f-lerm-f.tage, if he does not J,now. should 'he aware of the fact that if he w:!Rh to rise on a point of order at any time when I or any other member is sneaking, ir- r,erfectly e.nti tled to do so. ~. SIMMONS: Th;mk you , Mr. Chairman . AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible, ~'!R.

Sil'4J.l'ONS: Thanks for the education, hut I did not want to rise on a r,oint of order, I would have done so and I was riuite aware of it hut I did want to take exception to that kind of tactics heing used in the House. , I am well aware that that is very tynical, so typical that I d:ld not see the point of rising on anoint of order because he would weasel out of it in some way or another, •-·Ir. Chairman. Rut to the sub1ect at himd and to the comments, first of all, which the "finister without Portfolio, Thank r.od has made.

He says, "The only rea,:mn is, reasons of innuendo and that kind of th:lng." I do not presume to sr,eak for the honour ah le ~~ember for BF 11 Island, he can speak for himself on this. I do not think he rose for that reasnn but th1tt is for him to clar:f .f y hut let me sav whv I rise. 456,

April 29, 19 71+ Tape 1376 IB-1 I do not speak to this item hec11use I want to do anything under the table, I want to get at some infonnation, I want to know.If there is nothing wronp,, what does the ~inister without Portfolio have to fear with putting thiE to tl1e Autlitor (;eneral? Would not the ~finister of Pura] Development he more than vindicated if the Auditor (;enera] showed that indeed t1'ere were no grounds to the charges made by my colleague, the member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: No, I did not make any charges. MR. SIMMONS: Or an unfortunate choice of terms.

I was not here <:·'l Friday afternoon;but to the possibility of some conflict which arises from the statements. ~r. Chairman, I have already heard the minister's version. I listened with complete care and interest to what he had to sav. Indeed 1. t is worth noting, "-'r. Chat rman, that the Minister nf Dural Development has spoken very 11.ttle in this House. I, as one member, would estimate that easily two-thirds of the timl' that he snoke :In this House altogether since this session began, has been spent singinp. the praises of J. 1le1 rl and Son.

I have heard him say verv little in his capacity as ~inister of Rural nevelopment. Is this some kind of an advertising campaign for a private company we are going on with him? Easily two -,thirds of his time has been taken up with telling us what a great company his is. MR. PEID: Inaudible. MR. SIM'-fONS: ~r. Chairman, I sincerely think that the minister has something personal against me. He keens talking about the NTA. ~y record with the NTA was rather good. ~heck with anv number in it, Mr. Chairman. MR. RF.ID: Not accordin~ to the teachers. MR.

Sil--'MONS: The honourable minister knows all the teachers I suppose? ~R. REID: I know a lot of them, MR. ROBERTS: Unfortunately the people of Newfounrlland are getting to know you, ''Jim", MR. REID: Inaudible, 4563

April 19, 1974 Tape 1376 IIJ-2 MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, Jam not going to he dragped into a persona] vendetta, if he should want to heave insults at me about my past - MR. REID: Inaudible. }IR. SIMMONS: I heave no insults at the minister, 1'-'r. r.hairman. I am trying to make a point and I am doin,=, so with some diffjculty. ~~. CHAIRMAN (~R. STACG): Order. please! Honourable members are reminded that while they may not always agree with what a person is debating, that oerson has the right to make points which may in fact be violently obiected to by honourahl e members on either side.

They have then the right to rise in their nlace in an orderly manner and debate as we] 1. Interjections from members who do not have the floor are completely out of order. I sugp,est to honourable members who are violating that rule that they begin to observe it. The honourable member for Hermitage, MR. SIMMONS: Than!· vou, Mr. Chairman. Too bad the minister was not listening to you when you made that ruling because he will probably start interrupting again although I sincerely hope he does not so that I can make the point that I am tryinp. to make to him. He says that he is innocent.

Mr. rhairman, I sincerely hope he is and I shall listen with all the interest in me to any explanation he has to give. The one he has riven today, Mr. Chairman, is not enough. Now at one point he said, "I have never attempted to influence the use of equipment." I d:l.d not get the quote exactly; the implication being he had never used influence in this matter. I wonder, Mr. Chairman, would he indicate to us whether the letter he read today so soon after the publication of the events on Friday or Saturday, whether that letter came to him completely · spontaneously or did he perhaps suggest that somebody write it.

I know that somebody was awfully ~R. REID: I will answer that. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, he can answer it in time. I will make my

April 29, 1974 Tape 1376 IB-3 point first. I notice that the writing and the typing and the, getting the letter into the minister's hands was awfully expedit:lous. One will notice it was a circular letter "To whom it may concern'.' I would presume it took some time. We have _iust come through a weekend. It referred to an item in the paper only on Friday or Saturday. Yet, here we are at three o'clock on a "'ondav afternoon with the item in the minister's hands. I am wondering if somewhere along the ljne it was done completely spontaneously or witPout his suggestion. I have more, ~•r.

Chairman, for the miniEter, lots more. · would like to have the answer to that question if he should choose to answer it. Mr. Chairman, he did not understand the rule I guess. Mr. Chairman, also it has been suggested that any person who gets the lowest tender or whatever tender, if the body concerned awards it, that is all well and good. Perhaps the minister is saying to us that he has no jobs around the province now involving put-lie funds which are not on tender, which were not tendered.

Is that what he is telling us, that all the jobs he has throughout Newfoundland and Labrador involving puh lie money he got on tender? I woul rJ like to know the answer to that question too. I know an answer to it hut I would like for him, since he is the person directly involved, ~'r. Chairman, to give us his answer. Are all the johs in which his company is :l.nvolved in around the province gotten by public tender? That will make an interesting answer. l'lr.

Chairman, somebody and a lot of bodies actually,inc]uding the Minister w:l.thout Portfolio,are coming to the all too enthusiastic defense, so enthusiastic that one would think it was contrived. One would think that there was some particular reason for them to want to rush to his defense. I would suggest, as the member for Bell Island has suggested, that the best defense, Mr. Chairman, here is the truth. The one way to get the truth out is to have some independent person, the Auditor General is a good suggestion in this respect - to look 4565

April 29, 1974 Tape 137fi into it and if the minister be innocent, bv all means lf't us vindicate the man as he ought to he vindicated. IB-4 I do not helieve, Mr, Chairman, that it is enouph to claim that there is no confU ct unless we have sc,mc proof that there is not. ~fore than that, ~tr. Chairman, I do not r.e 1.ieve it is enouj'h to know that there is none. I be] i.evc also, as someone has sairl, that _;usticc must not only be clone, it must 1111ncar tn he dnne.

In thjs situation here thP. minister is 111 nn,·L' the minister and secondly the memher for the district of Trinity South, i.n which clistrict these expenditures were incurred, the exnendjrurcs rcfcrrccl tr hv mv cnlleague the memher for Rell I!'ll.and, J' l' is ,st n, ,c-c- t"e member for that district and he is secondly the ~•inister for Pura! Development, the department 1.nvolved and he js thirdly a princioal in the c-r>lT'n-'lnv involveil. Now even if he be lily-white., Mr.

Chairman, the onus is on him to conduct himself in such 11 way that he does not f!.ive the appearance that there is anything wrong here :l.n this narticu] ar situation, I wonld also like the minister - I wi] l get hi8 ear in a minute - to indjcate, if he wou]cl, to the committee, since he has chosen to pursue this matter - I will get his ear in a minute ns soon as he gets the coaching that he so hadly needs en this subject, trr. Chairman. ~R. NEARY: Is there a cabinet meeting going on in the committee, Mr. Chairman? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Does it make a difference to him?

MR, NEARY: Yes it does hecause the member is speaking to the minister, no not he so ignorant. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible, MR, CHAIRMAN (MR, STAGG): Order, please! The point that is beinP, made by the honourable memher for Hermitage, while the member has the right to speak, he does not nevertheless have the right to demand that a person listen. MR, SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, I do though require that if there is to be a reaction to what I am saying from the minister, that he at least 4560 r:

April 29, 1974 Tape 137/i rn-s understand what it is he is reacting to. Thank you. There he js, }'Ir. Chairman. Now, he is the Speaker, Earl:! er today he was the Minister of Municipal Affairs. AN HONOURABLE tAEMBER: Inaudihle. MR. SIMMONS: Yes, indeed he :Is. Pe ]ikes addressing an audience this lar~e, }'Ir. Chairman. There are. forty or fifty here. He only had thirty-five Saturday night at his meeting in Marystown, thirty­ five. This is a big meeting for him, a really bip meeting, this one here. MR. CHAIR~AN (MR. STAGG): Order, please! Order, please!

Honourable gent]emen are rather frivolous today. r-.•aybe it is the beginning of a long week. I would sugr,es t that the matter under discussion is a matter of some importance and the honourah]e gentleman should direct themselves to the points under discussion which are 16-01-01, the Department of Rural Development. Honourable members should not sidctrad: themselves or attempt to sidetrack others. MR, SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, I mentioned two or three question~ I would like to ask the minister.

The first one was whether the letter he has today from the Sibleys Cove peoole came completely spontancous]y or without any prompting from him or people acting qn h:fs behalf. Secondlv, I asked if all the .1ohs that his company is involved in right now in the province involving the expenditure of public funds, if all these .iohs were gotten hy the proper route of tender.. I was about to come to a third question which I now shall.

It has been suggested by the minister and hy others who have been rushing to his defense tl-at if anything - I think the Min:l.s ter without Portfol:l.o said this - if anythi.ng his business may have heen hurt. 4561

April 29, 1974 Tape no. 1377 Page 1- MW I find that difficult to believe, although I am willing to be convinced, Mr. Chairman, if the evidence were placed before me, I certainly should be convinced and so I would suggest a way to place the evidence in front of us. If the minister and the government or whoever makes those decisions are not willing to buy the suggestion of my colleague, the Member for Bell Island, how about this suggestion?

Would the minister agree to indicate to the House the number of jobs he was involved in for each of the last four or five years, the number of jobs involving public monies his company has been involved in each of the last three, four or five years? That might be an indicator - it might give us an indication of whether his business is being hurt on account of his present involvement in • government. I would like· him to respond to that particular question as well. Mr.

Chairman, my concern in this matter is a little different than the i'!inister without Portfolio, who tends to get very much up tight about the time we are consuming in discussinR the estimates. I personally think that most of the time is very well spent, if one should deduct the volume of time which is rather deliberately, I believe, being used by the government side of the House at this time. Knowing that we only have seventy-five hours to discuss the estimates, they have become very verbose all of a sudden.

I think if one were to check back through the Hansard, one would find that easily half the time thus far has been taken up by people on the governm~nt side of the House. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MB.. SIMMONS: They are not supposed to be but they are doing a pretty good job of it except once in a while. Mr. Chairman, I am glad that I did not live up to the version,expectation of the senior Member for Harbour Main,because that itself would be a disappointment to me if I did it the way he expected me to do it. Mr.

Chairman, my concern with this issue is to get at the issues involved, It is not to attack the personalities involved, it is to find out if there is any conflict, it is to find out if there are- 4568

April 29, 1974 Tape no. 1377 Page 2 AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) • MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, does not the member for Harbour Main know that he must be in his own seat when he is speaking in this committee and that he must not interrupt me when I am trying to speak7 Would Your Honour bring it to the member's attention please? AN HON, MEMBER: (Inaudible), MR. SIMMONS: I interpret that it is okay, We shall take due advantage of that liberty. ~r CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stagg): Order please! The honourable member's point is certainly well taken.

The honourable member appears to the Chair to be 1n the general vicinity of his own chair whether he is in fact in it or not . Is the honourable member in his own chair? \ AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stagg): The point raised by the Hon. Member for Hermitage is worthy of some comment. AN HON . ME!-IBER: (Inaudible), MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stagg): Perhaps the honourable member might wait until the Chair is finished before he comments further. The honourable member is completely out of order in interjecting in any event.

The fact that the honourable member might not be in his own chair is just compounding something or other. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, my purpose in pursuing this matter is that I would like to find out if there is any conflict of interest here. I have heard the minister say that he has not used influence. I already mentioned in the House previously in talking on the subject of Rural Development that I had in my possession a letter which he had written to the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities on ·June 13, 1973, after he became the minister, ~r. Chairman.

On that occasion, he was writing about a matter which did not affect him as minister, that is to say not within the balance of his portfolio, but it obviously ,ftected him in a business way,as the letter indicates. 4569

;\pril 29, 1974 Tape no. 1377 Page 3 MR. ROBERTS: Was it written on a business letterhead? MR. SIMMONS: I cannot tell, It is a photo copy. There is no letterhead appearing at the top so he is probably writing on plain stationery, Mr. Chairman. There is no letterhead appearing there. He does point out in writing to Mr. Fred Sawiders of the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities: "Dear Mr. Saunders; In response to your letter concerning a certificate to permit Mr. Boyd Pretty to operate a taxi service from Green's Harbour to St.

John's, picking up passengers along the route as far as Whitebourne, I do not oppose this in principle; however, it has been my widerstanding and still is that Mr. Pretty was proposing a bus service using a so-called mini-bus, with a seating capacity of seventeen passengers rather than using a five passenger vehicle as required for a taxi service . " Mr. Chairman, without attempting to take it out of context, I will just skip down to the appropriate

section but I am quite prepared to read the whole letter. "I have no objection to Mr. Pretty operating a taxi if he used a five passenger vehicle as he is now licenced to do." The point being that the gentleman concerned had a lot of objection if the man were going to use a larger bus because this had implications for a similar service which he was operating. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible), MR. SIMMONS: Having point that out - it is a legitimate case, Mr.

Chairman, If I were in the same situation, I would probably make the same kind of case if it affected me that way, It is a legitimate case for a private businessman to make to an authority which is regulating the granting of licences on this matter. It is a legitimate case, We do not argue with that at all. I do argue strenuously with the fact that the man who was writing in his capacity as a private businessman signed his name, ''James G, Reid, minister." 4570

April 29, 1974 Tape no, 1377 MR, NEARY: Read the last paragraph. MR, SIMMONS: I am sorry1 MR, NEARY: Last paragraph, MR, SIMMONS: Oh, I am sorry, Page 4 The last paragraph I think is pertinent to the point too, Mr. Chairman. "It is not my decision whether a licence should be granted to Mr. Pretty but I feel that the Board of Commissioners should maintain closer control not only over this operation but over all phases of the transportation business, paying particular attention .o public carriers. P.S. If you wish to discuss this, please contact me, Yours SincereJ.v. James G, Reid, Minister." Mr.

Chairman, I maintain as I did earlier that that is an example of using influence, That is an example. MR, BARRY: (Inaudible), MR, SIMMONS: Is the Minister of Mines indicating that he does the same thing? Would the honourable gentleman do the same thing? MR, BARRY: (Inaudible), MR. EVANS: (Inaudible) - privilege, MR, SIMMONS: Ha! Ha! Mr. Chairman, if I were a minister I would not exercise that kind of a privilege and that is my whole point. HR, EVAUS: One does not have to be a minister, a member. MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stagg): Order please!

Honourable members are drawn to several rulings made earlier this afternoon and innumerable rulings made in this session, both during the discussion of the estimates and at other times,that only the member who has the floor is permitted to speak, Certainly in this case the honourable member is being interrupted by both his colleagues and by honourable members to my left. I suggest that all honourable members observe the usual courtesies, MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, as I was saying, my interest in pursuing this is one of finding out what the facts are. As I said in another 4571

April 29, 1974 Tape no . 1377 Page 5 debate on another matter that if the gentleman from Trinity South be vindicated on the matter, I will be among the first to say how glad I am to hear that he is innocent and to also offer my apologies for any unkind or wrong inferences that might have been left by anything that I have said on the point. Mr. Chairman, my concern is to get the truth out on this matter and in this respect I ask again the two or three questions that I put to the minister earlier. Since he might not have been listening, I will just review them for him. First of all, will he tell us _without qualification that there was no influence on his

part in getting this letter which he produced today ·/ Secondly, are all the jobs he is involved in right now across the province or has been involved in in the past two years, all those jobs which involve public money, did his ~ompany get all these jobs,without exception,by contract? If not, would he indicate those which he did not get by contract and why, in his opinion he got them without (I do not mean contract) public tenders?

Thirdly, would he be prepared (I know he probably cannot do it right now but with proper preparation tomorrow or the next day or so) to supply to the committee information which would indicate the volume of business which his company has enjoyed, involving public monies over the last three, four or five years? MR. REID: (Inaudible). MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, I know he does not have to but I am asking, will he do it? Will he do it to vindicate his position, to indicate as the Minister without Portfolio has saitl that if anything his business has suffered in the past couple of years? MR, NEARY: Mr. Chairman - MR.

REID: Mr. Chairman, may I - HR, CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stagg): The Hon, Member for Bell Island has the floor, MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the minister will have all the opportunity he wants to answer any of the matters that have been raised on this side of 4572

April 29, 1974 Tape no, 1377 Page 6 the committee, I do want to say, Sir, that I cannot sit in this honourable 1House and take the low, sneaky way in which the Minister without Portfolio tries to make his point. 4573

-April 29, 1974 Tape No. 1378 NM - 1 It has to be about the lowest, Sir, about the lowest form of debate, about the lowest form of debate that I have every witnessed in this honourable House. The minister has developed a technique of his own. A technique of his own, Sir, that is - well, it is beneath contempt. But, Mr. Chairman, it has to be answered, It has to be answered, AN HON, MEMBER: Inaudible. MR, NEARY: That is right. I would say I am probably more of a statesman than that honourable minister.

Every time, Sir, he stands in this honourable House and screws up his face or takes to the air waves on television he is the best asset we have. He gets us 10,000 votes every time he does it, MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please: The phrase used by the honourable member in his opening remarks refer to the honourable member's comments as low and sneaky. I do believe in retrospect that they call for the prompt intervention of the Chair. I think they probably were unparliamentary, however the i11D11ediate reason the Chair is rising is the rule of relevancy.

The honourable member is drawn to the fact that we are dealing with the Department of Rural Development and the quality of debate or the character of the Minister without Portfolio certainly is irrelevant to this debate. MR. NEARY: Character or lack of character of the honourable minister, Sir, but I intend to be relevant because, Mr.

Chairman, the minister that we are talking about, Sir, the Minister of Rural Development, and we are dealing with that minister's salary, threatened to resign over a year ago because his administration was going to bring in a conflict of interest law and the minister said, "If they bring it in I have no choice but to resign.

"It is going to interfere with my business and I am going to put my business before being a Minister of the Crown, before politics." That is what the minister said and the honourable Premier says, "Oh no 1 11 I saw the Premier on television and I heard him on radio saying, "No, the minister does not have to do that because a minister 4574 {t

April 29, 1974 Tape No, 1]78 NM - 2 can own a business and still do business with the government." The Premier said at the time, my colleague reminds me, that we will decide what is conflict of interest. That is what makes it the farce that it is, Sir. The Premier and his colleagues decide when it is conflict of interest. I would suggest to the Minister of Rural Development that now is the time for him to put it to the test, Put up or shut upl Never again let that honourable crowd mention the words , "conflict of interest," insicle or outside of this honourable House, because they do not believe n it. MR.

MARSHALL: On a point of order, you know another hour has gone by. Now it is not for me to remind the opposition but the honourable member is not bein g relevant. We are talking about 16-01-01, the salary of the minister. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, to that point of order, Sir, I submit to Your Honour that I am right on tar~et. I am relevant because we are talking about a minister's salary and we are talking about a minister's business dealings and his conduct with the administration, Sir. What could be more relevant? I knew the truth hurts. MR. MARSHALL: Very philosophical. MR. NEARY: I am not being philosophical.

MR. MARSHALL: The warped philosophy, we have heard enough of it. ~1R. CHAIRMAN : Order please! To that point of order: While the honourable member's explanation of what he was doing would ce rta inly lead one to believe that he was in order, his explanation of what he was debating and what he was actually debating may in fact be two different things. I suggest in fact that they were. lie was into a philosophical dissertation on conflict of interest and just what it was or what it was not and his explanation was in order.

If he should want to proceed he may proceed as he thought he was proceedin~ when he explained what he was saying, MR. NEARY: I do not know how I am going to sort that one out Your Honour but I will try to do the best I can. 4575

April 29, 1974 Tape No. 1378 NM - 3 Sir, the Minister of Rural Development came into this honourable House this afternoon with two or three documents that were prepared over the weekend. Now, Sir, the minister did not tell us whether he approached the Chairman of the Water Committee or if the Chairman of the Water Committee came to the minister. ~ow the minister mentioned in his earlier remarks, Sir, let me see what he said - MR. REID: Inaudible. AN HON.

MEMBER: God forbid! ~- NEARY: · People, he said, are hurt and very disturbed about the remarks that I made in this honourable House on Friday that appeared in Saturday's, 'Evening Telegram.' The people are hut:t and very disturbed. What are they hurt and disturbed about? There was no reflection, there was no criticism of the Water Committee, there was no criticism of the allocation of money that they received, Maybe the minister tried to convey that impression that I was criticizing the allocation of the money to the Water Committee. That is not so, Sir.

God bless them1 I would say, the more money they get the better and I hope they get water and ·sewerage over there running out of their ears. But that is not the point. Sir, the point that I made was the way that money was disbursed and the involvement of the minister's own company in receiving a large portion of that money,and there are other invoices available, Sir. I do not have them with me. There are other invoices available. MR. REID: How. does he think I lived these last seven years if I did not have - MR. NEARY: Well, Sir, the minister may have worked as hard as anybody in this honourable House.

He may have built up a ~l million company but so what? That is not the point, Sir. Hundreds of Newfoundlanders have done that. The minister is prospering certainly better under the administration since he became a member of the government than he was before. MR. REID: That is more than he could ever say. 4570

April 29, 1974 Tape No. 1378 NM - 4 MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I do not have - MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please'. The import of what the honourable member has just said is certainly a matter which the Chair cannot let go unchallenged, Does the honourable member remember what he just said, indicating that the honourable minister has prospered more since he became a member of the government than before? MR, NEARY: His company, I said his company. MR. CHAIRMAN: Or his company. lrt. NEARY: Yes, Sir. MR. CHAIRMAN: I suggest that that remark either has to be substantiated or withdrawn. MR.

NEARY: Well, Sir, it would appear that the minister's company has prospered more since the minister became a member of the administration than it did heretofore, than it did prior to January 18, 1972. AN HON, MEMBEJl: Withdraw it. Withdraw it. Withdraw it. MR. NEARY: ~r. Chairman, okay, if Your Honour wants me to withdraw it 1I cannot substantiate it but I can think what I like. I will withdraw it. I will withdraw it,Your Honour. MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member also knows that when the Chair rises all honourable members resume their places.

I realize that the honourable member may have for the moment for gotten that. As the honourable member says, he can think what he likes but in the parliamentary system people cannot always say what they like. MR. NEARY: I do not have the rules in front of me,Your Honour,so therefore I do not have the documentati 1 n. That is why I am suggesting to the minister, Sir, because everybody is talking about it. I do not know whether the minister realize~ that or not. I have got a document here in front of me. Conflict of interest is not signed and I am not going to read it.

I do not deal with letters that are not signed. But I have one here that is signed, Sir, when the minister got a part of his anatomy caught in the wringer, from Greens Harbour to Old Shop, he sent out a circular letter to all the residents 4577

April 29, 1974 Tape No. 1378 NM - 5 over there , dated February 8, 1974, to all residents from Greens Harbour to Old Shop in connection with the letter that my colleague just read,that the minister wrote to the Public Utilities Commission. There was an adverse react ion . It stirred up controversy. They were ready to 1inch the minister over there so he decided to send around a circular letter. I t did not do him any good, Sir. 4578 ..., . • • • "R.,-.

Tape 1379 (Afternoon) PK - 1 Just listen to this, listen to it, vou would not know l-ut he was God /1.lmiP.htv. 1' I am writing th:! s letter i r, order to cl ear un anv misunder­ standing w:fth resnect to the a!'nlication of }'r~(So and c:o/to the Board of Public lltili ties to have his taxi licence amended. Attached is the nhntostat:lc conv of a letter, dated June 13, 197.3, wh:lch T ha,,p wr1. tten to the Purl i c JTt11 i t:1.es in renlv to a letter T received asking if mv cnmoanv had anv oh1ections to ~,r. Pretty amending his certificate. As is clearly stated in that letter, I had no ob1ect:lon to "r.

Prettv onerating a tax:!_ servi.c P but I couJ d not aP,ree," the mi n1 ster savs, "T could not agree to a du!'lication of the bus service. ,. Whv? 'Recause t .. , ~in:fster oner.ates the bus service? J',l'P_. REID: I have the franchise. MR. "1EARY: Oh, he hai:; the franchise. T sPe. "l could not agree to a du!'licat:lon of the hus serv:lce for reai:;ons which T outlir,ed :In mv letter." ~. REID: One or the other had to go. MR.

NF.ARY: One or the other had to po and the nonr old cr:lpnle, :fnval:ld, se.m:f-invalid that was try:lnp. to get an e:lr:ht- nassP.nP.er 1,us, he is the one who had to J!O. ~R. 'REIi): Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Yes, he was a semi-invalid, :ft savs r:lrht in the letter. What does :f_t say here? ·Aman whose only fom of l:lvel:f_hood•" However, things took a oeculiar tw:!st when the minister d:f.scoven•d that this gentleman wanted to get an eight-nassen!!;er bus to suonort his familv, to get a little more monev to support his family. AN HON. ME!-1RE'R: He sai~, he was not ~oing to rPad that. }IR.

NEA'PY: No, I am not goin~ to read it but here is the letter the minister wrote. He said, "On September 25,''Mr.·'(the gentleman's name) "publi!!hed an notice in the 'Newfoundland C:azzette' to again have his cert:! .ficate of public coy,ven:f.ence amended. I then wrote the Board requesting a hearing so that I could discuss the matter with the hoard and ~~1th the itentleman, a!I well as :l.n order to find out what tvpe of service he ~,as prooosing. I heard noth:f.nP, furthrr from the hoard, in the meantime I did hear a rumour that a petition was being circulated 4579

April 29, 1974 Tape 1379 (Afternoon) PK - 2 by the Societv of the 11nited Fishermen to get a taxi service for the area, 11 Th.:l.s is why the honourable gentleman was so ,,1orried about it, thev were c:f rculating a petition over there. ;, However, since so an,' so and some memhers of the S.TT.F, v:lsited me at my home to discusss the matter and I told them the same as contained :l.n the.se letters. As I have said manv times before, I thinv such a service is hadlv needed :In that area and I would be the ]ast person to say other­ wise.

"Onlv a taxi;'a taxi because he is not in comoetition with the minister ;'can provide the pr.oner service for the infirm, the elderly and others who would be unable to wait for a bus. that these letters clarif" the situation." My sincere wish Well thev did not clarifv the situation. The minister is still in dutch :fn h:IR rli.strict over that as well as with some of the other matters that have been raised in the committee bv myself and my colleague who just spoke in this debate.

I submit to the minister that it would he in h:fs o~,n best interest and in the interest of his administration to lay his cards on the table, to level with the people of this province. That is not the onlv contract the minister's firm got from the government either directlv or indirectly. That is not the onlv one. The minister's equtoment is pooping up everywhere, over here at the Health Sciences Complex. MR. REID: It is not allowed to go there. MR. NEARY: Yes, it 1B allowed to go there but do one thing or the other. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: No, ~r. Chairman, I would not.

Thank God I have more ethics than that, I have more Principles than that. God onlv knows in thirteen years in this honourable House that I have had the opnortunity, believe me I have. The honourable member does not have a twisted mind but I know who does have a ttdsted mind and warped mind, I am looking straight at goggles over there now. MR. EVANS: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: But, Sir - MR. CHAIRMAN (STAGG): Order, please! 4580

And.l 2<l, }Cl74 Tape 1379 (Afternoon) PK - 3 Perhaps the exchange has now enden and my interruption is sur,erfluous hut I SU!?gest to honourahle memhen; that to carrv on a <lehate hetween two honourable members neither one of ~,rhich - AN HON. MEMBFR: Neither one of whom - !-IR. CHAIRMAN (STAGG): Neither one of whom are directing themselves to the matter suonosedly under discussion. It is comnlete]v out of order.

For the fifth or s:'-xth t fr1e th:l .!l afternoon, I brin!? th"! s to the attention of honourahle members. '!R, NF.ARY: Thank vou, Your Honour • Would honourable gopgles be in order, S:1 r? ~ut, Sir, in all sinceritv "[ rlo th"lnk in the mini!lter's o~m best interest and in the interest of the administration that he shoulrl eet this matter. cleared up, rot onlv with this contract but with a number of other contracts refPrrerl to hv my colleague, the Member for Hermitage. This can only he done, "r.

Chairman, hv a nuhlic accounts committee, hv a r,elect C'mnmi. ttee of thP House. through a 1 udical enoui r.v, or through the Auditor General, Sir. I would imbmit, }Ir, Chairman, that the most obvious route to take wou]d he via the Audi.tor General's Depa.rtment. The /\ud:I tor. General, Sir., is the 1->atchrlop; of the treasurv. The Auditor General :Is also the vatchdog of the conflict of interest legislation. I think tlie Auditor ~ener.al should he called in, and the Auditor General as a servant of th i s }louse, Sir, should he called in to do a thorough investigation into this whole matter.

I hone that the minister comes up smelling of roses. I hone ,o, Sir, hecause ,,1e have made no charges on this s:f.<le of the House, no ins:lnuat:1.ons, as w:is suggested by the. H:fnister without Portfol:l.o. He are .1ust genuinely, Sir, trying to do our jobs. We are asking r:mest:1.ons. Rememher the Hinister of Finance when I caught him on the $Ml7, onn write-off. Tlememher what the minister said - HR, CHAIRMAN (STAGG): Order, please! The honourable member is very persistent in his desire to :f.ntroduce irrele:vant debate into this 1601-01.

The honourable member knows fu] l ~,,ell that anv dealings between himself and the r-<inister of Finance or theRe things which are now historv are -f.rrelevant to this 4581

Aneil 29, l !J74 Tane 1379 (Afternoon) PK - 4 narticular debate. MP. NEARY: The point I am making is that we were told to ask questions, 1,,hat we have to do is ask cmestions. We have to raise these matters, we were told by various m~hers, ministers on the government benches, "Ask c,uestions, 1' they said, "and vou will get the answers." Well now we are nutting Questions and putting suggestions of how the minister can deal with th-Is, to the Hinister of Rural nevelopment, but the minister is obviously going to sit there, Sir, and not going to do anything about it.

If he should not, the minister - I will venture you a bet, Mr. Chairman, if the minister should do nothing about it, about holding an impartial investigation,that somebody will accuse the minister of trying to hide something. Somebody - it will not he I, I am not going to do it. MR. RFTD: Inaudible, >.m.. NEARY: I beg your pardon! ~R. REID: Inaudible. MR. NFARY: No, I certainly have not. I have more scruples than that. I am giving the minister an opportunity to lay his cards on the table. MR. RFID: MR. NEARY: enough. I have laid some of them on the table - Ah, some of them,that is not enough.

Some of them are not I can see the minister over there on the weekend going around in his hip: limousine t