Manitoba Hansard — 18 March 1997 (Sitting 12, 36th Legislature, 3rd Session)

36-3-12

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVII No. 12-1:30 p.m., Tuesday, March 18, 1997

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Member Constituency Political Aff"iliation ASHTON, Steve Thompson N.D.P. BARRETT, Becky Wellington N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUAY, Louise, Hon. Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Rob lin-Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary Concordia N.D.P. DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur-Virden P.C. DRIEDGER, Albert Steinbach P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside P.C. ERNST, Jim Charleswood P.C. EVANS, Clif Interlake N.D.P. EVANS, Leonard S.

Brandon East N.D.P. FILM ON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo P.C. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield P.C. FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley N.D.P. GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Lib. GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa P.C. HELWER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples Lib. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns N.D.P. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek P.C. McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane Osborne N.D.P.

MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia P.C. - MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn St. James N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East P.C. NEWMAN, David, Hon. Riel P.C. PALLISTER, Brian Portage Ia Prairie P.C. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PITURA, Frank, Hon. Morris P.C. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet P.C. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. River Heights P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D P REIMER, Jack, Hon. Niakwa P.C. RENDER, Shirley St. Vital P.C. ROBINSON, Eric Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Gladstone P.C. SALE, Tim Crescentwood N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Broadway N.D.P. STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin N.D.P.

SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye P.C. TOEWS, Vic, Hon. Rossmere P.C. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River N.D.P.

55 9 LEGISLATNE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, March 18, 1997 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS READING AND RECENING PETITIONS Mobile Screening Units for Mammograms Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk). It complies with the rules and the practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: No. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

WHEREAS medical authorities have stated that breast cancer in Manitoba has reached almost epidemic proportions; and

WHEREAS yearly mammograms are recommended for women over 50, and perhaps younger if a woman feels she is at risk; and

WHEREAS while improved surgical procedures and better post-operative care do improve a woman's chances if she is diagnosed, early detection plays a vital role; and

WHEREAS Manitoba currently has only three centres where mammograms can be performed, those being Winnipeg, Brandon and Thompson; and

WHEREAS a trip to and from these centres for a mammogram can cost a woman upwards of$500 which is a prohibitive cost for some women; and

WHEREAS a number of other provinces have dealt with this problem by establishing mobile screening units; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has promised to take action on this serious issue. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) to consider immediately establishing a mobile screening unit for mammograms to help women across the province detect breast cancer at the earliest possible opportunity. MINISTERIAL STATEMENT University of Manitoba Bison Women's Basketball Team Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, I have a min isterial statement for the House.

Madam Speaker, it is my pleasure to rise before honourable members today to express congratulations to the Un iversity of Manitoba Bi son women's basketball team on winning their second consecutive Canadian Interuniversity Athletic association championship. Our province's domination in university women's basketball continued with a 73-62 win over York in the national final in Thunder Bay on Sunday. It marked the fifth straight year that the title has gone to a team from Manitoba after the Uni versity of Winnipeg Wesmen won three straight titles between 19 93 and 19 95.

In winning the title, Manitoba displayed a work ethic and demonstrated the character champions are made of. While we congratulate the entire Bi son team, special recognition goes to Coach Colleen Dufresne and three graduating players who undoubtedly were the team leaders, Terri-lee Johannesson, Lorissa Crellin and Vicky Neufeld. It was also a fitting end to Terri-lee Johannesson's college career. The first team all-star led the team in scoring, inspired her teamm ates through her leadership and for the second straight year was named the tournament MVP.

560 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 18, 1997 An Honourable Member: Would she be an Icelandic Canadian? Mr. Stefanson: I think she might be. I would ask all members to join me in congratulating the University of Manitoba women's basketball team on their second straight national championship and for the pride and distinction that they have brought to our entire province. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Ms.

Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, I would like to join with the Minister of Sport in congratulating the University of Manitoba women's basketball team on winning their second consecutive CIAU championship. It is true that Manitoba does have a strong history of producing championship basketball teams. This is the fifth straight year that the Canadian championship has come to Manitoba, and special congratulations are due to all the players and the coaches, as well as the other support staff and volunteers that work with university college teams. *

(1335) I think we must also remember that all these young women as well as the coaches come from high schools, and hopefully most of them come from high schools in Manitoba. The concern that we have is fewer and fewer of these Manitoba university athletes are going to be coming from high schools in Manitoba because this government continues not to support sport, extracurricular activities, high school athletics, physical education programs.

I would bet that in the future there will be fewer and fewer people who come from our high school programs with the kinds of skills that these young women have, because of the effects cutbacks in education are having on the ability for high schools to conduct extracurricular activities like basketball, other sports, arts programs, music programs and the like. So although we want to give credit and recognition to these fine university successes, we want to also put the government on notice.

If they want to continue to see this kind of success, they have to put some investment into the education and opportunity of all Manitobans in the future. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Personal Care Homes Public Inquiry Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, another family has come forward with the personal care home situations in Manitoba. The Normand family, dealing with what they feel to be the premature death of their father, is now launching a court suit against the Holiday Haven Nursing Home, which, of course, is funded and accredited by the provincial Conservative government.

They are alleging gross negligence, care deterioration and recklessness of supervision at the home. Families today joined our Health critic-families dealing with the Beacon Hill, Heritage Lodge, Kildonan place and Holiday Haven Home have joined with us in calling on the provincial government to have a public inquiry. Would the Premier (Mr. Filmon) please answer in a positive way to the families of the four homes I just mentioned and call a public inquiry dealing with our personal care homes here in the province of Manitoba? Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the member for Concordia brings this particular case to Question Period. This family has made allegations. They have chosen the route of civil litigation in which to pursue that. During the course of that litigation, the facts will come out. They have powers within that to gamer the information which they want, and like all Manitobans, I think we have to wait for the facts to come forward.

Let us not forget that the Chief Medical Examiner for the province investigates all deaths in personal care homes or reviews all files related to deaths in personal care homes. That safeguard is always there in place. This family feels differently. They are pursuing it, as is their right through the civil courts, and we will see what happens with it. Mr. Doer: Families have waited in Manitoba since this Premier (Mr. Filmon) promised in 1990 to deal with the

March 18, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 561 personal care homes. Families have waited since 1992, since the Rusen inquest of the Anne Sands death. Families have waited since 1994 from the policy alternative report that the government has had. Families have waited since 1995 when the Premier promised to implement 39 recommendations on personal care homes. Families cannot wait any longer, Madam Speaker.

Now the Morrissette family has taken the government to the Human Rights Commission alleging that vulnerable adults in the personal care home system in Manitoba receive less rights and less protection from the provincial government than vulnerable children, vulnerable children in any setting including a child care centre.

I would like to know, Madam Speaker, will the Premier override the stonewalling from the Minister of Health and deal with all of the issues since 1990, on personal care homes, and have a full public inquiry on behalf of the families of the vulnerable people in our personal care homes here in Manitoba? Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, what I am interested in as Minister of Health as is in this side of the facts. The Leader of the Opposition continues to take innuendo and allegation and try to spin them into facts. Even the Free Press editorial writers identified that very clearly last week. *

(1340) Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, last year, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) said that the opposition was fearmongering when we were raising questions on the Holiday Haven Nursing Home. I would like to ask the Premier if he had taken action on the Speech from the Throne, the Anne Sands inquest, the policy report that he had, the 1995 report that this government received and the 39 reco mmendations, if he had taken action on the questions raised by the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) and the families, would Julius Molnar be alive today? Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, that question from the Leader of the Opposition is absolutely the kind of contribution to this debate that is absolutely unwarranted. The Chief Medical Officer of our province has ordered an inquest, I believe, into the death of which he is talking and that inquest will reveal the facts. The Leader of the Opposition is so impatient, so impatient to make a political issue whether there is one or not, that he ignores that process. I cannot be that irresponsible. This side of the House, we would like to see the facts. We have always said let us see what the facts are.

The member opposite has already been the judge, the jury, has made the decision. I wish all of us could have his wisdom. Personal Care Homes Public Inquiry Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, this morning, families from four diff erent nursing homes came together to say that staffing levels are inadequate, that no one listens to their complaints when they raise their complaints and that there is need for a public inquiry into the way personal care homes are operated. There has already been an inquest and one of the people from the inquest said those conclusions were not followed.

My question to the Minister of Health is why are you stalling? Why are you doing less for senior citizens? Why do you not do the right thing and today order a public inquiry so those people can have their voices heard? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, why will the member for Kildonan not wait to determine the facts? Why is his Leader, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer), making the decision to come to this House and say here are the facts on that particular case when the Chief Medical Officer is conducting an investigation? That is not a responsible way to deal with these issues.

Last week in the House we heard his colleague the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) talk about huge numbers of telephone calls and then admitted he was talking about a dozen or so. The members of the New Democratic Party should wait to see what facts come out, and we will then act accordingly based on fact, not on innuendo.

562 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 18, 1997 Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, how does this minister reconcile his statements this afternoon? How can he reconcile those statements when we raised the issues about Holiday Haven in the fall, when we sent 19 complaints to the Minister of Health, when I sent three letters directly to the Minister of Health calling for a change in management at Holiday Haven and it took finally a death at Holiday Haven for the minister to step in? How can the minister now refuse to follow up on complaints raised, not just by people at Holiday Haven but at other nursing homes?

They are covering up. Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, no one is covering up. If there are legitimate complaints, they will be investigated. But what we have are members opposite taking bits of information, stretching the facts over and over again to make an argument for a case today that those facts have not yet demonstrated to prove. We have an inquest by the Chief Medical Officer; we will await those results. [interjection] Well, the member says one case. It is on that one case that they base their argument. Madam Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Doer) has come to this House with the conclusions of that inquest, and it has not even been completed. Please let the system do its work. Point of Order Mr. Chomiak: On a point of order, Madam Speaker, I think the minister overlooked the fact that we raised examples of 19 separate situations at Holiday Haven, three separate letters, and we are not basing our case on one death but on many instances that the minister is refusing to acknowledge. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Kildonan does not have a point of order.

It is a dispute over the facts. *** Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Kildonan, with a final supplementary question. Mr. Cbomiak: Madam Speaker, I am appealing to the Premier (Mr. Filmon), as did the families this morning when they appeared. Will the Premier, who was prepared to order a public inquiry with Justice Hughes into the jail system, give the people of Manitoba the assurance, the senior citizens who have no voice, that he will call a public inquiry into personal care homes? If you did it for the jails, surely you can do it for the people in the personal care homes. Mr.

Praznik: The member for Kildonan, with great dramatic effect, says the senior citizens in our facilities have no voice. Does he imply that in their jail they are not visited by their friends, relatives and families on a regular basis? Is he implying that members of this Legislature do not as MLAs- An Honourable Member: .. . implied. You do not care. *

(1345) Mr. Praznik: The member said people do not care. Madam Speaker, this side cares. What we do not do are the kinds of sleazy tactics that the members opposite do and the Free Press clearly identified. Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Madam Speaker, Beauchesne Citation 492 lists the terms that the minister was talking about as being unparliamentary.

Madam Speaker, I would ask that you would not only call the minister to order but ask him to at least once respond to some very real concerns that are being expressed on behalf of many Manitobans and today four separate nursing homes that are in question. Will you please ask him to not only be in order but to answer our very serious questions that are being asked on behalf of the people who are in our personal care homes, something that he should be concerned about rather than the kind of tactics we are seeing from this minister in this House?

Madam Speaker: I believe the honourable member for Thompson was raising a point of order on unparliamentary language. I would ask that the honourable Minister of Health withdraw the word. It was directed to a member or a group of members, and

March 18, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 563 remind him that all members are to be referred to as "honourable members." Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I believe I was quoting an editorial, but if I have offended the rules of parliamentary language, I certainly withdraw it, and I will table the editorial as well just for the purposes of the record. Madam Speaker: I thank the honourable Minister of Health. Home Oxygen Supply Service Rimer Alco Contract Mr.

Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, when we asked the Minister of Health why the Pharmacare program was being radically changed, it was clear that the real decisions were being made over here in the Minister of Finance's (Mr. Stefanson) office.

Will the Minister of Finance explain to this House why a little failing Grow Bond company, Rimer Alco, whose liabilities exceeded its assets at its last annual statement on March 31, 1996, who owes its shareholders, its bondholders, the government of Manitoba, banks and others money, why would this company be awarded by Treasury Board, which the Minister of Finance chairs, a contract when they are in deep financial distress, have no demonstrated capacity in the field and yet they are being given a contract by the Treasury Board, chaired by the Minister of Finance?

Will the Minister of Finance explain why his Treasury Board awarded this contract to this company? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I believe in the bidding competition for that particular contract that this company, I am advised, was the lowest bidder and met the bond requirements that were part of that bid. Mr.

Sale: Madam Speaker, what does the Minister of Finance have to say-the minister who is responsible for Treasury Board, not the Minister of Health-to the Canadian Federation of Independent Business who wrote to him, to the government on February 20 and said, "While this company may be an excellent manufacturer, it has not demonstrated any experience in ... a home care service business"?

He further said, "I am concerned that the decision to choose Rimer Alco may have been influenced by the potential embarrassment of another failure." How does the Minister of Finance explain Treasury Board's action in awarding a contract in spite of the fact that there are deep concerns about this company's ability to even survive, let alone to service this new contract? I will table this letter, Madam Speaker. Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, I will certainly be responding to the Canadian Federation oflndependent Business, but as the Minister of Health (Mr.

Praznik) has indicated, there was a process that this proposal went through. Rimer Alco was the lowest successful bidder meeting all qualifications. It is that simple. The member for Crescentwood comes continuously with innuendos about companies throughout Manitoba trying to paint doom and gloom of various entities throughout our province, but the reality is this went through a process and Rimer Alco was the lowest tender, Madam Speaker. *

(1350) Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, will the Minister of Finance confirm that the recommendation, the unanimous recommendation from the bid selection committee was that the contract be awarded to another company, that in fact the other company to which the contract was recommended was in fact the low bidder for the contract for a three-year period, low by some $75,000? That was the recommendation of the committee that reviewed the bids, including an external accountant, an accountant who said: I have grave concerns about the ability of this company to deliver the services. Will he in fact confirm that fact? Mr.

Stefanson: Madam Speaker, without accepting any of the numbers put on the record by the member for Crescentwood, I have already indicated, as has the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik), that this tender went through a process and Rimer Alco was deemed to be the lowest bid meeting the necessary qualifications. It is that simple.

564 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 18, 1997 Home Oxygen Supply Service Rimer Alco Contract Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, we have been imploring this government to stop the privatization of health care and admit there is no place for profit when lives are at stake. Now, in privatizing the home oxygen supply service, this government is more concerned about propping up the failing businesses of their friends than ensuring the health and safety of Manitoba patients.

I want to ask the Minister of Health: how does he respond to the CFIB letter that was sent to him on February 20 that states that Rimer A leo clearly does not have the demonstrated expertise, knowledge of the program or experience in dealing with this smaller group of the community? Hon. Darren Pramik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I am somewhat amazed by the question from the member, because the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) in the last question implied we should have awarded the contract to another company.

Now she is telling us from the same party that we should not have awarded it to anyone, so I am not quite sure where the New Democrats are coming from on this. Ms. Cerilli: I want to ask the Minister of Health: why is this government putting the health and safety of more than 800 home care patients, 30 of whom are children, at risk with a company that clearly lacks the capacity to provide this kind of home care service of oxygen supply? Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I would like to know when the member became an expert in the supply of oxygen, first of all.

Secondly, why would I put them at any less risk if I was awarding it to the contract that the member for Crescentwood is now promoting? Point of Order Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, a point of order. Madam Speaker, my words were that the recommendation of the bid committee was that the contract should be awarded to another company. I did not recommend it; my party did not recommend it. We oppose privatization of home care. I want the minister to correctly quote me and not to twist words as he is so wont to do. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Crescentwood does not have a point of order.

It is clearly a dispute over the facts. * * * Ms. Cerilli: Can the minister table any documents to confirm that any other company had a higher bid than Rimer A leo when his own committee consisting of a Department of Health official, an official from the Victoria Hospital and an official from Government Services recommended against this company and other companies had a $75,000 lower bid over three years? Can he produce any information that would contradict that? Mr.

Praznik: What I find most interesting about this whole issue. if one knows the history of the company Rimer Alco and their role in bringing oxygen concentrators to the province, if there is one thing that they have managed to do in their history in Manitoba is result in a significant lowering in the price of oxygen. They have created a competitive market in oxygen that has saved hundreds of thousands of dollars in our health care system. What I am noticing now is we have the New Democratic Party saying we should not have reduced the price of oxygen thereby freeing up more money for health care.

What they are in fact doing, Madam Speaker, is supporting an industry that has overcharged us in Manitoba for oxygen for years. I wonder how many campaign donations they got from oxygen suppliers. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. * (1355) -

March 18, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 565 Home Oxygen Supply Service Rimer Alco Contract Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): My question is also for the Minister of Health. Perception is important on this whole issue of the oxygen generators and the contract that has been let out. I have had opportunity to talk to two or three individuals with respect to this particular contract, and there is a great deal of concern that it appears that the government might be trying to bail out a particular company.

I would like to table a shareholders' report that gives some sort of indication of the company that was, I understand, awarded this particular contract. My question specific to the Minister of Health: was there any special treatment given to Rimer Alco in the awarding of this particular contract? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): If one looks back at the history of this particular company coming to Manitoba and beginning in the oxygen business with the oxygen concentrator, they have been the first competitive force in the supply of oxygen in many, many years.

The result of this company has been they have forced significant decreases in the price of oxygen supplied throughout our system. They have saved hundreds of thousands of dollars, and as a consequence there has been a fierce competitive war with the traditional suppliers of that product. What I hear today are members of the opposition, quite frankly, continuing wanting to see that protection continue. Rimer Alco, as a company, have saved the taxpayers of this province hundreds of thousands of dollars in oxygen costs, if not millions, over the last number of years. Madam Speaker: Order, please.

The honourable member for Inkster, with a supplementary question. Mr. Lamoureux: My question is fairly simple in terms of the preferential treatment. This is a company that has received thousands of dollars of assistance through Grow Bonds, and others. My question specific to the Minister of Health: was any preferential treatment given to this company in the awarding of this contract? Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, I understand from the department officials that I spoke to on this matter that in terms of the costs-and I believe Treasury Board has reviewed this-that they were the lowest bidder and met the performance bond. Quite frankly, I know that those who were not and those who have concerns about the continued existence of Rimer Alco-because they are a tremendously competitive force in the marketplace have brought these matters to members opposite, and I think very much that is what this is about. Mr.

Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I would seek assurances from the Minister of Health and the Premier that in fact there was no ministerial interference in the dealing out of this particular contract. Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, what I can say as the current Minister of Health is I am assured by those who have worked on the numbers on this contract that they were the lowest bidder. Let us also put in perspective, because I see a great deal of attack about Rimer Alco, that Rimer A leo as a company has done more to reduce the cost of oxygen and save money in health care in our system than any other supplier in decades.

Let us keep that in mind as well before we start attacking the company. Home Oxygen Supply Service Rimer Alco Contract Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, I think we have established that the bid was awarded to Rimer Alco even though they are not the lowest bidder and that it was against the recommendation of a government committee that another company be awarded the contract. This was not the best bidder by any stretch of the imagination.

Will the Minister of Finance confirm that Rimer Alco was unable to come up with the required bid bond of $1.75 million to ensure that they could perform the requirements of the contract, in other words, that no bonding source would take a chance on this failed company? Why did Treasury Board agree to go with

566 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 18, 1997 this company when they could not secure the bonding necessa ry? Bon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, there is a famil iar ring to this kind of question from the opposition. They come with half facts, inc orrect information. The facts are that Rimer Alco was the lowest overall cost proposal submitted for the services. One of the conditions when we award these types of contracts is that they have to be bonded. That will certainly be a condition of awarding the contract to Rimer Alco. Let us be clear on that.

My understanding is, yes, they can and will be able to obtain the bonding that is- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minis ter of Fin ance, to complete his response. Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, these members opposite are unbelieva ble. To finalize the contract, bonding has to be in place. I am told that, yes, the bonding is and will be in place for Rimer Alco, but no contract will be finalized with Rimer Alco unless the bonding is in place. That is easy to understand. They seem to have difficul ty across the way understand ing.

In typical fashion they come with incorrect informati on, half-truths, and put absolutely wrong information on the record as the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) did just last week on the whole issue of gaming in Manitoba, a common pattern. *

(1400) Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Burrows, with a supplementary question. Mr. Martindale: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Minis ter of Fi nance if he could clarify whether or not, as he has said- well, he said two different things. Is the bond in place or will it be in pla ce? It cannot be both; it has to be one or the other. And why was the bond not in place before the contract was awarded? Mr. Stefanson: As I indi cated, upon review of all of these contracts , one of the requirements is that bonding be in place to ultima tely award the contract.

I am told that, yes, bonding is in place, and it will have to be in place to award a contract to Rimer Alco or any other company that is successful. Simple to understand. I think everybody else can understand this other than 23 people across the way. Mr. Martindale: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Min ister of Health why he awarded this contract to a company with very little experience, without trained staff, and why is he putting 800 clie nts at risk, 30 of them children, vulnerable chil dren, high-risk clients of home care?

The home care people who are experts in that field tell me that if people are untrained and inexperienced, then someone could die as a result of their inexperience. Why are you giving this inexperienced company this contract? Bon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, first of all, just a few minutes ago in this House we heard the member's colleague say that even if the company was experienced and met all these qualifications, we should not award it to them anyway beca use it should be kept in-house.

So is this an ideological debate, or is it one that really is concerned about the consumers in the province? Madam Speaker, company bids have to meet the requiremen ts of the contract, and that is to provide appropria te and safe service to the people that they are serving. Historical Documents Sale Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker. last year this government brought Louis Riel's letters home to Manitoba and so reclaimed these documents for our history.

Now this same government is selling 35 his torical documents, including Riel's power of attorney and letters of adminis tration, the 1873 patent of the Hudson's Bay Company and the 1907 land sale of the St. Peters Band to the Rural Munici pality of St. Andrew's, viewed by many his torians as the most di sgraceful land swindle in Canadian his tory. To the minis ter responsible for Land Titles: does the fact that the recent budget turns the Land Titles Office into a special operating agency more interested in profit than in heritage explain why what should be protected,

March 18, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 567 Manitoba historical artifacts, are now being privatized and sold for profit on an exclusive basis to legal firms? Hon. Mike Radcliffe (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Madam Speaker, I do not accept any of the inflammatory and salacious remarks that were raised by the honourable member for Osborne with regard to the preliminary remarks on this; however, I will take her inquiry as well founded, and I will take that as notice and bring back the specific information to this Chamber.

However, with regard to special operating agencies, would assure my colleagues here that special operating agencies- An Honourable Member: Are you selling them or not? Mr. Radcliffe: -do create-and I heard response from the front benches which I believe I have addressed. Special operating agencies have reformed the way that government provides effective and efficient service to the people of Manitoba, and I would commend the earnest attention of the member to that issue. Point of Order Mr.

Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Madam Speaker, my understanding was that the minister had taken the question as notice. I just want to assure the minister we do not get paid by the word in this House, something I would probably benefit from, but if he has taken it as notice, he should probably come back at another time and explain it. Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, on the same point of order. Mr.

Radcliffe: Madam Speaker, I would like to be responsive to my honourable colleague across the way and to assure him that old habits do die hard, but I would assure him that I want to be as complete and as open with the administration of our departments, so therefore I want to give every opportunity to my colleagues in this department to give them all the information that I have at hand. Madam Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Thompson, indeed the honourable member for Thompson does have a point of order.

I would remind all honourable ministers that if they take a question as notice, that is all that is required and no further comment is required. *** Ms. McGifford: Madam Speaker, I would like to point out to the minister that whatever my words were- Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Osborne was identified to pose a supplementary question in which there is to be no

preamble or postarnble. Ms. McGifford: Well, I will try not to be salacious. My question is for the Minister of Culture. While selling the record of the St. Peters Band land sale to a legal firm fits with the continual betrayal of aboriginal people in this province, by what authority did this government decide to offer historical artifacts and records as promos for legal firms? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Madam Speaker, I was just visiting our Heritage services branch this morning.

The one thing that I was so very impressed about is how well they work with all departments of government to assist all departments of government and citizens of Manitoba where decisions are being made. So I just wanted to, first of all, say to the member that the services of the Heritage services branch are available and they are very willing to assist. The details of the authority, Madam Speaker, I will take as notice and get back to the member on that. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Osborne, with a final supplementary question. Ms.

McGifford: Again, to the Minister of Culture: since this sale was planned while the Minister of Culture was the Minister of Justice, could she please

568 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 18, 1997 tell the House who recommended the privatization of historical records and exactly why? Mrs. Vodrey: I have noticed the member's questions often are not totally accurate in terms of the information that she brings forward. Sometimes there appears to be a kind of a slant or an edge to them, so I think the most important thing would be to bring back to the House and bring back to the member information on any of what she has put on the record to determine in fact if she is accurate and then to give her the information she requires. *

(1410) The Pas Personal Care Home Capital Projects Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Madam Speaker, my questions are directed to the Minister of Health. On March 16, 1995, just days before the provincial election was called, the then Minister of Health announced over $600-million worth of capital in health care spending which he termed to be commitments and nonpromises. As a matter of fact, Madam Speaker, I remember the then Minister of Health stopping me in the hallway and asking me to congratulate him because he had made this commitment for capital and The Pas personal care home was included.

I would like to ask the Minister of Health today to tell the House when that commitment will be acted on, because the people in The Pas are anxiously waiting as to when that project might become a reality. Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, in the budget that was announced at the end of last week, in the new capital program we have additional dollars. We are going to be entering into a process with the regional health authorities to identify their priorities within that.

I am certainly aware of the facility in his community which is old and in need of major work-we are talking about the personal care home-and I am sure that that will come out of that planning process with the Norman Regional Health Authority. In fact, we have already had some discussions about it. Mental Health Care Capital Projects Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Could I then ask the Minister of Health to tell the House as to when the beds for mental health-again, the former Minister of Health promised for a long time-will be finally opened? Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): I very much appreciate that question. I know the dollars for the capital conversions for those mental health beds-I believe there are I 0 or so planned for The Pas. That is included within our already-our capital projections. I know that we want to be into that construction or conversion fairly quickly because they affect our plans with respect to the future of the building in Brandon. They are also very critical, I believe, to the future of The Pas Hospital and making better use of existing space within that facility. Provincial Parks Entrance Fees General Revenue Mr.

Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Natural Resources. Drastic increases in park entry fees, camping fees and the eliminating of seniors' passes have contributed to this government's cash cow of $1.6 million. This government's tax grab extends to fishing licence fees, as well, for seniors. and that money will be swallowed by general revenue at a time when fish habitat should be a concern of this government. Can the minister table what percent of the $1.6 million has been raised through increases in park entry fees, camping fees and the elimination of seniors' passes? Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, the member yesterday and again today is implying that there are copious amounts of money that are not going back to maintain the parks for which we are responsible. Let me just remind him, there have been hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on Hecla and washrooms and showers in Otter Falls, Falcon Lake, Birds Hill Park, Birds Hill Park electrification, Falcon Lake, New Nutimik Lake, and St. Malo campgrounds have been electrified. The

March 18, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 569 sewage lagoon was done in south Nopoming and Duck Mountain, prairie restoration in Beaudry Park, the parking and area redevelopment at St. Norbert, just a few of the things that the department has spent very wisely in using those dollars on behalf of the people who use the parks. Mr. Struthers: That is not the money that has been raised through the fees though. Fishing Licence Fees General Revenue Mr.

Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Will the minister confirm that money raised by his government through increases to fishing licence fees will not be targeted to fish habitat as they claimed at the beginning but will simply be dumped into general revenue? This includes the fees that he now charges to seniors to fish in this province. Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, again, the member is wrong. Reb-Fit Centre Postcardiac Treatment Program Ms.

Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, yesterday I asked the Minister of Health about the pilot project to transfer the postcardiac surgery rehab program from the St. Boniface Hospital to Reh-Fit. I want to follow that up with a question to the minister to see if the pilot project is going to include a study to see if the participation rates lower because of this transfer and if particularly it affects the participation rates of people who live in the northeast end of the city of Winnipeg, especially if there are any other additional user fees that are charged. Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the member for Radisson may be very surprised at my answer, because the kind of concern that she would have over such a move is exactly what I would share as well. In this pilot project, I would expect if it is not in there now that it has to be to ensure that we are not diminishing the opportunity for people to use the program. I share that with her as well, being an MLA who comes from the northeastern area. Ms.

Cerilli: Madam Speaker, will the minister further assure the House that, after this pilot study, the finances for this postcardiac treatment program will travel with the program to ensure that there are no user fees for the services of this program? Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, obviously we always want to ensure that the program is effective in being able to assist people who are in that particular situation. Obviously the cost of the program is a factor that has to fit into that, but certainly program dollars associated with a program have to travel with it when it moves. Ms.

Cerilli: Can the minister explain why his committee on postcardiac rehab which was set up to study the need for planning and expansion in this area has not had a meeting since last fall? Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I certainly cannot answer that question. If there is a need for that committee to meet, then it should be meeting, and it is not a committee that I have had an opportunity yet to meet with. Woodstone Technologies Ltd. Wage Payment Mr.

Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, in early February of this year officials of the Grow Bond department and this government met with officials of Labour Canada, at which time Labour Canada shared with the department the amount of wages owing to Woodstone employees, both at the end of the previous bankruptcy and at the final end of the company in its final stages. Officials of Labour Canada made very clear to the government the scale of the wages well before the Grow Bond refunds were sent out to the directors of the company. The government could have made sure that employees got their wages.

My question to the minister: why did the minister not hold back the Grow Bond payments to the directors of Woodstone so that employees would have something to claim against, so they would have some justice out of this process instead of giving money back to their friends?

570 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 18, 1997 Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Madam Speaker, I am not surprised to see the member for Crescentwood wrong again. As a matter of fact, he brings half-truths to this House and continually bases his question on that kind of information. Madam Speaker, I indicated earlier to him, when he came up with this question before, that indeed we would follow the law and ensure that the law was enforced when we paid out the Grow Bonds, and that is exactly what has happened with Woodstone.

We have had officials from my department check with legal services to ensure that indeed we were following the act in the law, and that is exactly how we will proceed. *

(1420) Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, there is nothing in The Grow Bond Act that specifies the period of time before which the payments have to be sent out. Madam Speaker, why did the government not act to ensure that the Grow Bond payments went out to the directors subsequent to the ordering of payment of wages and payment of benefits to those workers under the labour Canada act? Why would they not act for justice for workers instead of doing favours simply for their friends? They had the opportunity; they did not use it. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr.

Derkach: Madam Speaker, he is the last person in the world who would stand up for workers in rural Manitoba, because he was the member of this House who stood up and indicated that the jobs in Portage should cease and that W oodstone products should be moved to Winnipeg and the plant should be set up in Winnipeg. Madam Speaker, that is not standing up for families in rural Manitoba. That is not standing up for workers in Manitoba. We will stand up for the people of Manitoba and for the people who work in the various enterprises in this province.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Crescentwood, with a final supplementary question. Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, the question is very simple. Will the Minister of Labour (Mr. Gilleshammer), will the Minister of Rural Development, will they stand up for workers who are owed hundreds of thousands of dollars, whose mortgages are at risk, whose families do not have employment, or will they simply stand up for their friends, former bagmen of the Tory party, rich people who have always had benefits? Who are they going to stand for? That is the question. Mr.

Derkacb: Madam Speaker, this government and I as minister will always stand up for workers in Manitoba. Madam Speaker, during the difficulties at Woodstone products we ensured that we did everything possible to ensure that the families of the people who worked at W oodstone would be protected in every way and that those jobs could be protected as long as possible. We worked and the staff of my department worked day in, day out to try and preserve those jobs when that member, the member for Crescentwood, tried to close down that plant at the earliest convenience.

Madam Speaker. today, just in the House earlier today, we have another attack by this member on a rural company where families and workers are working at Rimer Alco in Morden. Why is he attacking the rural workers and the rural families of this province? Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. NONPOLITICAL STATEMENTS Pembina Valley Business Awards Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Madam Speaker, do I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Pembina have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr.

Dyck: It is my pleasure to rise in the Chamber today and tell members about the event I attended last Friday, March 14. The Pembina Valley Development Corporation held their annual general meeting, which was followed by the Pembina Valley Business

March 18 , 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 57 1 Achievement Awards Banquet at the Morden Recreation Centre. The awards dinner recognized businesses and industries in the region for their contribution to the economy, their job creation and their success in export sales. In particular, the awards recognized local businesses that have been serving our community for many years. I believe that it is important to acknowledge the stable businesses within our communities for their contributions to the local economies. The awards dinner was sponsored by Sill Streuber Fiske & Company, a local accounting firm.

I would like to acknowledge some of the businesses in my constituency who were honoured with awards and nominations. In the category of sales less than $1 million, Paperwork of Morden and Winkler and Creative Communic ations of Winkler were both nominated for a business achievement award for their sales growth and job creation. In the category of sales between $1 million and $5 million, Kroeker Machinery Sales Ltd. of Winkler won two business achievement awards for sales growth and for export sales growth and was nominated for job creation.

Other nominees in this category were all from the Winkler area: Elias Woodwork and manufacturing limited, H.W.H. Holdings and Grandeur Housing were all nominated for their success in job creation, sales growth and export sal es. In the category of sales greater than $5 milli on, Monsanto Canada was nominated for sales growth and export sales growth. Delmar Commodities and Keystone Grain, both of Winkler, were both nominated for their sales. Decor Cabinets and Load Line Manufacturing were honoured for their growth in export sales.

Decor Cabinets of Morden won a business achievement award for their contribution toward job creation in the community. The Winkler Co-op was also nominated for this award. Finally, Myjendie Charlton Securities of Winkler was nominated for a business achievement award in the category of new business. Madam Speaker, I would like to congratulate all these nominees and business award winners for their contribution to the economy and job creation. I wish them all continued success and hope that they continue to serve the people of our community for many years to come. Thank you.

Provincial Bantam Hockey Championship Mr. Clif Evans (Interlake): Madam Speaker, leave for a nonpolitical statement? Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Interlake have leave? [agreed] Mr. Clif Evans: Madam Speaker, last weekend I had the pleasure of participating in the Provincial D Bantam Championships held in Wawanesa, Manitoba, alo ng with the Riverton Eagles hockey team. Teams involv ed from throughout the province that were in attendance in W awanesa this past weekend were of course from Riverton, from La Broquerie, from Hartney, from St. Eustache and Brandon and of course the host team, Wawanesa.

Sworn to acknowledge and recognize the three winning medal teams in this weekend's tournament, the Gold was won by La Broquerie, Manitoba; the silver was won by Hartney, Manitoba, and the bronze was won by the Riverton Eagles from Riverton, Manitoba. Madam Speaker, prior to acknowledging the members of the hockey team, I would like to also acknowledge the fact that the committee from Wawanesa, chaired by Mr. Peter Derkach, did a tremendous job in not only preparing for the tournament but also in providing the utmost hospitality and kindness to our kids and to our boys.

I had great pleasure also in sitting down with Mr. Derkach at times and discussing hockey and not anything else. I know that members of this House would join me in extending congratulations to the following members of the Riverton medal team: Kris Johannesson, Darren Kornelson, Mark Sigurdson, Michael Johnson, Eric Grimolfson, Tyler Evans, Warren Spring, Evan Kornelson, Jamie Mowat, Andre Brandt, Jordan

572 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 18 , 1997 Johnson, Warren Hiebert, Kelsey Plett, Ken Johnson, Eric Erickson, Tyler Sigurdson, and the coaches of this bronze winning team for the Bantam Provincial D, coaches Bob Johnson, Ken Komelson and Clif Evans. Congratulations to Riverton. 1997 Labatt Brier Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, might I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Madam Speaker: Does the honourable Minister of Family Services have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mrs.

Mitchelson: Madam Speaker, it is my pleasure to salute the efforts of Vic Peters, Dan Carey, Chris Neufeld and Scott Grant for an exceptional week of curling last week as Manitoba's representatives to the 1997 Brier in Calgary. As we are aware, television ratings for curling are amongst the highest for any sport in our country. Throughout the week we were treated to some fine shot-making as the Peters rink completed play with a perfect 11 and 0 record.

Viewers across the country were then treated to more fine play in the playoffs, and although the Peters rink was beaten by Alberta in the final, it was a game that essentially could have gone the other way with a break here or there. That is the nature of the sport. Understating all of this is the fact that TV viewers from across Canada not only got to once again witness the exceptional curling abilities of Manitobans but another group of excellent ambassadors for the sport and our province. This resulted in Vic Peters being designated the most sportsmanlike player of the competition.

In a province such as ours with so many fine curlers, it is a major task just to represent Manitoba. Those curlers that do carry the heavy weight of the buffalo on their backs because we have had more success than any other province at the Brier and our expectations as Manitobans are high. As the Brier champion, the Peters rink, in 1992 and following Kerry Burtnyk's victory in 1995 and Jeff Stoughton's last year, there may have even been greater pressure and expectation placed on the Peters rink this year.

Given their curling abilities and the manner in which they represented themselves and represented Manitoba, the Peters rink can take pride in their accompl ishments this season. I would ask all honourable members to join me in saluting Vic Peters, who is a constituent of River East, Dan Carey, Chris Neufeld and Scott Grant for a tremendous effort in keeping Manitoba in the forefront of curling at this national event. Thank you, Madam Speaker. * (14 30) ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Hon.

James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, on a matter of House business, I would like to announce that the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources will sit on Thursday next at ten o'clock in the forenoon to continue deliberation on Manitoba Hydro Annual Reports this Thursday. Madam Speaker: The Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources will meet this Thursday, March 20. 10 a.m., to continue to consider the Manitoba Hydro.

BUDGET DE BATE (Third Day of Debate) Madam Speaker: To resume adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) and the proposed motion of the honourable Leader of the official opposition (Mr. Doer) in amendment thereto, standing in the name of the honourable member for Burrows, who has 35 minutes remaining. Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, yesterday when I began I was talking about Selkirk Avenue and- Madam Speaker: Order, please.

I wonder if I might ask for the co-operation of all those members having meetings, if they would do so either in the loge or outside the Chamber. I am experiencing difficulty hearing the honourable member for Burrows.

March 18 , 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 573 Mr. Martindale: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Today I would like to continue talking about Burrows constituency and in particular Selkirk A venue. This morning I walked down Selkirk A venue from Arlin gton Street to Main Street and counted the number of empty businesses and the number of businesses and storefronts for rent and the number of businesses for sale. It is really quite astonishing and quite sad because, at one time, Selkirk A venue was like Corydon A venue is today.

In fact, I am told that the sidewalks were full of shoppers and people at one time on Selkirk A venue, much like Corydon A venue on a Saturday night on a summer weekend. It is a very dif ferent story today, because there are 19 businesses or storefronts for rent; there are 19 empty storefronts; and there are 15 stores or entire build ings for sale, for a total of 53. That is almost a majority of the businesses on Selkirk Avenue. Regrettably, this commercial street is a shell of its former self. I stopped in for coffee at the Wind mill restaurant.

I asked three people who were having coffee, I said, what should I say to the government in my speech today? They said, well, it does not matter what you say because this government does not listen. That is the first thing they said. I think what they meant was they do not listen to us, they do not listen to poor people in the north end. They certainly do listen to the Chamber of Commerce, they listen to their business friends and they listen to the donors of the Conservative Party. That is who they listen to. In fact, the people having coffee at Windmill Lunch said they just listen to their friends.

Certainly, this government has listened to their friends, and the result is $12 mill ion in tax breaks to their business friends in this budget. They said we need jobs, not ju st seasonal jobs but year-round jobs, and we are suffering because the poor are getting poorer and the rich are getting richer. I am sad to say that they also had a criticism for immigration and thought that there should be fewer immigrants coming to Canada. I was sorry to hear that, but I think I underst and why they would say that.

Certainly very high rates of unemployment usually result in those kinds of statements, but it is also because this government is cultivating the politics of resentment whereby one group of people is encouraged to resent another group of people. For example, taxpayers are encou raged to resent anyone who is the recipient of government money, especially if they are on social assistance, and the government has been certainly encou raging that attitude.

For example, starting in August before the election of April '95, billboards went up about the welf are fraud line, which was a very popular message for this government to get out, that is, attacking the poor, poor-bashing, as it has been called. I think they should be ashamed of themselves for encouraging the politics of resentment. In addition to many businesses and houses for sale, we have many empty lots.

In fact, when we are campaigning in elections, one of the things that we say in inner city neig hbourhoods is that "f or sale" is winning because at the beginning of every election campaign there are more "for sale" signs than there are candi date signs, because there is such an incredibly large number of houses for sale at any one time. Many people have given up trying to sell their house, because they know that they are going to be unsuccessful or they are going to lose money. For example, one of my constituents is a police officer, lives in a very nice house on Machray A venue near Sinclair Park.

He spent a lot of money putting ornamental brick on the outside. He put a recreation room in the basement and put in new drywall in many rooms, redid the kitchen. He listed this bungalow for sale at $79,000, could not get one person to come and look at it because as soon as they found out it was in the north end they would not come to see it. So I do not envy any homeowner, including myself, who owns a house in the north end, in trying to sell it because our property values are not appreciating, they are depreciating. This causes terrible problems.

For example, at 733 College Avenue there is a vacant 12 -room house, a very large house on three lots. It has been boarded up for about 10 years. I have had numerous phone calls from the neighbours because the house, even though it is boarded up, is frequently broken into and there are complaints about child ren going in there to sniff and about gangs using it. So every time this happens I phone the Health Department and they send out city

574 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 18 , 19 97 crews. It gets boarded up again, and the cost of that is put on the taxes for the owner. Now the owner, it turns out, is an absentee landlord. He lives in Florida. So I phoned him up one day and told him about the complaints that I have been receiving about his house and encouraged him to sell his house. He told me that he was offered about $40,000, but it was not enough. He wanted about $60,000. I said that you are not being very realistic.

I do not know if you understand what is happening in the north end but house prices are going down, they are not going up. You should have taken the $40,000 and run. I said, you know Habitat for Humanity would like your house. They would fix it up. They would have an owner-occupied family living in that house, and you could get a tax credit, a charitable tax credit. I understand you can spread it over five years. He said, well, that is no good to me. I am not a rich man, in spite of the fact that he is retired and living in Florida.

It is also very complicated because the house is actually in the estate of his mother. So the City of Winnipeg is trying to take him to court, and they cannot because he lives in the United States and he does not legally own the house. Consequently, it has been boarded up for I 0 years. It is an eyesore. It is detracting from the property values of the neighbours and he will not sell it because he is not realistic about the price. He is about 75 years old, and he has a very sentimental attitude towards this house . It has been owned by the family since 1910 .

He envisions a different period that is long past in the north end, but it is a concern to everyone when we have not just one or two boarded-up houses but dozens, even hundreds of boarded-up houses and hundreds of empty lots in the north end. Another example is 65 1 Burrows A venue. I have been getting phone calls for the last six years about this house, and I happen to know some of the tenants.

The concerns are that some of the tenants sniff , some of the tenants drink and they party and they urinate in public, and when it rains they take a shower outdoors in the nude, all kinds of incredible stories about things that are happening on the part of the tenants in this house, so consequently I am getting phone calls from the parents at Strathcona School, across the street from Splash Day Care, which is across the street, and they are saying, what can we do about this house? Well, I phoned the Health department. The Health department goes and inspects it, but we have a problem.

It is owned by a slum landlord. The slum landlord owns about 15 slum properties and he is not ju st any old slum landlord. This slum landlord sells snif f to his tenants, and he sells groceries to his tenants, and he gives credit to his tenants. So they buy groceries in his store. When they run out of money he gives them credit. When their cheque comes, he goes to these addresses and he picks up the cheque and he gets them to sign it over to him, and then he gives them credit at the grocery store. Now, I phoned Income Secu rity and I said, is this legal? Can he do this?

They researched, and they came back and they said, oh, yes, there is nothing we can do about a tenant who is on social assistance signing over his social assistance cheque to the landlord. An Honourable Member: Does he charge them interest? * (14 40) Mr. Martindale: I am asked if he charged interest. I suspect he is probably charging them exorbitant interest, but I do not know that. Now, what really amazes me are not the activities going on in the house and not the slum landlord, who is one of the first landlords to go to jail in Manitoba, but the financial institution that loaned him money.

It happens to be a credit union, I am sorry to say. They loaned him $250,000. He had a mortgage for $250,000 on this one house even though the house, if it were to be sold, would probably sell for less than $50,000 and only $50,000 because it has three suites and it has guaran teed rent paid by the government. If it was just sold for somebody wanting to buy the house, it would probably only be worth about $20,000 if it is not a revenue property. They mortgaged him for $250,000. Now, he went bankrupt, so the credit union is stuck holding about 15 properties, and they are going to take a bath.

They are going to lose about $500,000 to $750 ,000, I am told. So it is not just the people who

March 18, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 575 live in some of these houses, it is not just the people who own them, but the financial institutions. Not only do they give exorbitant mortgages for properties that are greatly overvalued, but they also redline our neighbourhoods and they say either you cannot get a mortgage or you are going to pay a higher interest rate if you get a mortgage at all. It is very discrimi natory, and this government is unwilling to do anything about it. I would like to go on and talk a little bit more about the neighbourhood.

One of the very serious social problems that we have is poverty. Just a week or so ago I was at the annual meeting of Ross brook House, and Sister Bernadette, one of the co-directors said the roots of violence are poverty and despair. I think that bears repeating. The roots of violence are poverty and despair. Certainly the staff at Rossbrook House understand what poverty does to adolescents and to people in their community. We know that if we invest in children at an early age that this can be prevented or ameliorated.

For example, the High/Scope Perry Preschool study that some members opposite are quite familiar with has shown that if we invest money in preschool education, that for every dollar that is invested, over $7 is saved in future costs in social assistance, in the criminal ju stice system and in many different areas of government spending, and that the individuals who benefited from this program had lower rates of adolescent pregnancy. They had lower rates of social assistance as adults. They had lower rates of marriage breakdown, and they had higher rates of employment and higher incomes.

So we are always encouraging the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) and this government to spend the money where we know it will pay off and that is in preschool education, because we have this longitudinal study that studied the child ren over a 20- year period and we have the data. It was very interesting to hear the person who was lecturing about this at R.B. Russell High School say that there is knowledge and there is will. We have the knowledge; what is lacking is the political will. I would encourage this government to do something about that.

We have many good organizations providing services to the community in the north end, for example, the Urban Circle Training Program. They have had several successful classes graduate as tellers from their training program, and currently they are training health care aides and unit clerks. While it is acknowledged that these are good programs, we need 10 of these programs. We need 100 of these programs to train people for entry level positions. We have the aboriginal alliance which is providing a drop-in recreation facili ty for aboriginal youth, and I understand is getting no government funding.

I hear that they are going to move to Turtle Island. We are glad to hear that they are going to get a better facili ty. We have the Friendship Centre on Robinson Street which, unfortunately, lost their funding from this government in 1993. They have been given permission by the city to take over the north Y, and we hope that they can reopen the north Y. We certainly believe that recreation is one way of keeping people off the street. There really are not that many alternatives. mentioned yesterday the individual who said that getting in trouble was a pretty easy alternative because it was cheap and it was fun.

She pointed out that in the north end there is no Girl Guides group, no Brownies, no Beavers, no Cubs and no Scouts. I think that is probably true for a very large area of the north end. So we need recreation. But what is happening? We lost the north Y, and this week people are going for a third time to City Hall to fight the closing of Centennial Pool. The result would be that we would have lost two pools in the last three years in the north end, and we do not have the kind of recreational facilities that other communities have. Well, what is the government doing to address these problems?

What are they doing about the vacant lots? What are they doing about the rundown houses? What are they doing about the boarded up houses? Well, is there an infill housing program? No. Is there a rehabilitation housing program? No. Can we get rid of boarded up houses very easily? No. And yet, it is not that many years ago-in fact I was reminded when I saw Mr. Ducharme sitting in the loge the other day that when he was Minis ter of Housing there actually were

576 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 18, 1997 housing programs, there were social housing programs. There were quite a few of them, and now they are all gone. The federal Conservative government got rid of all the social housing programs. The Lib eral opposition at the time protested against it. They have had at least three budgets to bring back social housing programs, have not done a thing, and as soon as the federal government got out of social housing the provincial government got out of social housing. Now they want to privatize public housing.

They cannot wait to give it to their private landlord, private sector friends so they can make more money at the expense of taxpayers, because a lot of the people livin g there are people on social assistance. About $60 million a year of taxpayers' money goes to the inner city for rental housing in the private sector. I do not know what the public sector is. The budget for Manitoba Housing is about $40 million a year, and the private sector wants to get hold of that.

You can be sure that they will run it just like the slum landlords that I have been talking about, and they are going to make a mint because the government is paying the rent. I do not think that taxpayers are getting very good value for their money. I think the Minis ter of Fi nance (Mr. Stefanson) should talk to the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) about that and say, what assurances are there that for this money, this $60 million, the renters and the taxpayers of Manitoba are getting good value for their money because, in many cases, they are not. What about job creation?

What about combatting poverty? What is this government doing? Well, this government is helping to make it worse. For example, in the city budget they have once again cut allowances for child ren for food and clothing, child ren from zero to 18. Why are they doing it? They are doing it because of the provincial policy of standardization from 1993. Eventually the rates will be the same. To their credit, the City of Winnipeg has had higher rates than the province since 1993, but that is going to expire, and the result is that the food allowance for child ren is being reduced.

I think this government should be ashamed of themselves for taking food away from chi ldren. Now, I would like to read some quotes from Judge Hughes, who investigated the Headingley riot. This is what he says, and I quote: What do matters of that kind have to do with the Headingley riot and my terms of reference, which include a directive to make recommendations to the Mini ster of Justice on actions that can be taken to prevent or minimiz e the likelihood of another riot? A consi derable amount.

Gang membership offers an attractive and often glittering alternative to many who are poverty stricken, have few if any skills to market on their own and are caged within a life without hope. As I have learned in the course of this review, the glitzy trappings of life in the fast lane, albeit usually short-lived, that flow from the fruits of crime are a compellin g lure and wides pread appeal to those who see no other future open to them.

These pleasures of the moment, fancy cars, clothes, partners for sexual pleasure, drugs and alcohol that are out there today on some Winnipeg streets, are available to those who opt in. Sadly, the greatest number recruited into gang membership in Manitoba are aboriginals, who comprise 75 percent of gang membership in the province. They are likely candidates for recruitment, because so many of them have lives full of despair flow·ing in from the poverty that besets them. However, this

section of my report has equal relevance and applicability to nonaboriginals who find themselves locked in a life without hope and rooted in poverty. You can certainly see the connection between what Judge Hughes said and what I said earlier about when I quoted the staff at Rossbrook House, that the roots of crime are in poverty. Now Judge Hughes goes on, very interestingly, and quotes from the Winnipeg Free Press. He quotes: Help could come from improved recreation, training and employment programs and from improved support for families in trouble.

Young people with no marketable skills, no job and no prospects are apt candidates for gang activity. And then he goes on and talks about Judge Hamilton and Judge Sinclair in their report, the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry report. He quotes from that report, and here is what he says, and I quote: To change this situation, we require a real commitment to endin g social inequality in

March 18 , 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 577 Canadian society, something to which no government in Canada has committed itself to date. This will be a far-reaching endeavour and involve much more than the justice system as it is understood currently. It will require governments to commit themselves to economic and social policies that will allow aboriginal citizens to participate fully in Canadian life.

In the case of aboriginal people, it will also involve a significant redistribution of political and economic power as governments honour the historic commitments made to aboriginal people through treaties and other formal agreements. What have we seen from this government? Have they implemented the recommendations of the AJI report? In fact they met with a delegation who was pushing them on the AJI report and said they had implemented 100 recommendations. Well, we are still waiting for the list.

I do not believe for a minute that this government has implemented I 00 recommendations of the Aboriginal Justice Inquir y report. In fact, I think the budget for implementing the recommendations was about a million dollars a year. I do not think any of that money was spent. So Judge Hughes goes on, and he says, very interestingly, and I quote: Would the dollars it would cost to implement a program of assistance to those wanting to opt out of the gang syndrome be a justified and worthwhile expenditure of public funds?

Would pouring milli ons of dollars into economic and social programs that would allow poverty-stricken people with no marketable skills, no job and no job prospects to participate as law-abiding citizens in Canadian life be a justified and worthwhile expenditure of public funds? Someday the Canadian public has to accept that the answer to those questions is yes. We all have to realize that we cannot forever afford to tum our backs on the problem as it exists and avoid reaching out to the real solution. *

(1450) So the Aboriginal Justice Inquir y ju stices had it figured out. Judge Hughes has it figured out. The editorialist in the Free Press has it figured out. Certainly I have it figured out. Maybe some members on the government side have an inkling, but it is not in the budget. They do not have it figured out. They do not know where their priorities are.

What they have announced is a mere trickle compared to the flood of changes that are needed in order to bring ju stice to aboriginal people, in order to take poor people out of poverty, to give them jobs, to give them meaning, to give them hope so that they are not lured into a life of crime because that is what the alternative is on the streets in the north end, being lured into a life of crime. It is not ju st the north end. I had a call from a con stituent from the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale), someone who was into drugs.

His income was something like three grand a month, and now he is on social assistance. He is getting room and board, so he gets about $40 every two weeks. He is saying, I do not even have enough money for bus fare to go look for a job. Now that does not make sense, does it? If this government really wants people to get jobs, they would at least ensure that everybody who genuinely wants a job gets bus fare and money for photocopying resumes and work clothes if they need it, which the City of Winnipeg will provide if you know about it and if you ask about it in order to get a job.

I think that this budget does a very inadequ ate job of addressing these problems. In fact, I think it is a dishonest budget because it underestimates growth in the provincial economy and it underestimates revenue. As a result, for several years in a row, the Minis ter of Fin ance (Mr. Stefanson) has underestimated the budget surplus. They are sitting on piles of money and now they are starting to draw it out so that it does not look like they have a deficit anymore, and there are options that they could be turning to that they are not.

I think this government and all governments, when they are doing their budgets, have a choice. This government has a choice of either investing money now in health and education and social programs, or they can squirrel away millions, hundreds of millions of dollars in the Tory slush fund, also known as the Fiscal Stabilization Fund and take money out of that in the pre-election period in order to buy the taxpayers of Manitoba in the next election with their own money, with money from cuts, for example, the $23 million that the Minister of Family Services (Mrs.

Mitchelson) took out of the Family Services budget for social assistance last year, money from increases in fees of all kinds, and

578 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 18 , 19 97 money from the sale of public assets, like the Manitoba Telephone System. Which choice did this government exercise? They chose the option of increasing the Fiscal Stabilization Fund, their election slush fund rather than investing in health and education and social programs. You know it is interesting when you listen to Throne Speech Debates and Budget Debates year after year and it may seem that we are not listening, but sometimes we actually are listening.

I can tell you what some of the government arguments are, for example, they say if we ran our household like the government, we would be broke. In other words there should be no debt, and it is rather interesting to read quotes of people who said that. Some of those people got quoted in the Free Press on Saturday and they said, I do not have a debt. Why should the government have a debt? Well, most homeowners do have quite a bit of indebtedness. In fact, banks will let you borrow 35 percent to 40 percent of your income on debt and what is this provincial debt? It is less than I 0 cents on the dollar.

I think it is 9.6 percent of the operating budget on servicing of debt. I think instead of this government constantly talking about the debt and deficit, they should be bragging about how low their debt servicing costs are because I believe it is the second lowest in Canada, after Alberta, and it is going down. You should take credit for what you are doing instead of fear mongering. [interjection] The government changes tactics depending on whatever is convenient to them.

I remember a few years ago pointing out in a speech that the Conservative members of the Legislature had this householder going out and had a pie chart and it said that the debt servicing was 45 cents out of every dollar of income tax revenue, so they were exaggerating. Instead of telling people about the whole revenue picture, they just told them about the income tax revenue, and it was true, 45 cents on the dollar, but it looked terrible, when in actual fact it was 12 cents on the dollar of total revenue. I am sure the member for Gladstone (Mr.

Rocan) probably sent that householder out to every one of his constituents too, or maybe he could not because he was Speaker at the time. Now, of course that figure does not kind of look too good anymore because they want to take credit for getting the deficit down to zero and having a surplus every year so now they just talk about the 9.6 cents on the dollar. But many, many Canadians, many taxpayers with a mortgage or with credit cards for not just gas companies but all kinds of credit cards have way more consumer debt on their households than this government does.

Another argument that the government used and probably still uses if I listen to some of their speeches is if we did not have to spend so much money on interest, we could spend more on health, education and social services. I am sure the member for Springfield (Mr. Findlay) and other members have used that. Last year they could have said. you know, if we did not have to spend $575 million servicing the debt, we could spend more money on health, education and social programs, those are the three favourites. Some members, like the Minister for Highways (Mr. Findlay) would use it for building highways.

So now that the government is paying $55 million less in this budget on interest, are they spending more money on health, education and social programs like they said they would if they did not have to spend all this money on debt servicing. now that they are spending $55 million less a year on debt servicing this year over last year? Well, I got out the budget book and I compared Estimates over Estimates for Family Services and for Education, but I did not compare Estimates over Estimates with Health because there was a special warrant, I believe, for quite a few million dollars.

I think it was $55 million that was spent in the last quarter of the fiscal year. So what happens when you add this up? Well, it shows that actually the government is planning to spend in this budget, projecting $34 million less spending in health, education and social programs. So there is another argument that the government members like to use. But when you examine it, when you see the oppor tunity that the government has to do what they said they would like to do, you know, not spend so much money on interest and put it into three important areas, health, social programs and education, do they do it?

No, they have actually cut spending, especially in health. That was the biggest cut of all.

March 18 , 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 579 But this government did have some breaks for their friends here. The good news in this budget was for the business community, and it was no surprise. It was no wonder that when the business people were scrummed in the rotunda after the budget that they were all smiles. In fact, they were all smiles on the news, because they know that they got their reward. They got what they were asking for. The tax breaks to business were $16.1 mill ion in new tax breaks for business.

Compare that with $3 .6 million for individual taxpayers and $4.5 million in business subsidies, but there were more cuts to hospitals and universities, in fact I believe $4 million for post-secondary education. I believe that private schools got $4 million more. So we described this as a garage sale budget, and not only are they selling public assets like the Manitoba Telephone System that is worth hundreds of millions of dollars, but now we hear that they are selling our heritage, that they are selling documents from the Archives.

Maybe it is because it is a special operating agency and now they have to sell things in order to break even as a special operating agency. It is really quite disgraceful when a province starts selling off their history and their heritage. How did the government end up projecting a $22-million surplus? Well, they took $10 0 million out of the Fiscal Stabiliz ation Fund to create a $22-million surplus. * (1 500) It looks like health spending shows an increase this year, but this is only because the budget makes no mention of January's $81 -million additional payment for health overspending.

I said it was $55 million. In fact, it was $8 1 million. If this amount were added, as it will be in the final audit, health spending would show a decrease of $66 million. So in spite of the government's rhetoric, every year in the throne speech and every year in the budget we hear that they are protecting vital services in health, education, and family services. We hear that every year over and over again. What do we get in education? We get cuts to post secondary educa tion. What do we get in health? We get cuts in hospitals and now in rural Manitoba, the cuts will be taking place after April 1.

We also see that the Min ister of Fin ance (Mr. Stefanson) has underestimated his surpluses by factors of four times and five times in the past two years in order to justify continuing restraint. So the Min ister of Fin ance does not really want the public to know that there is going to be a big surplus, so he only projects a little surplus. In that way he can justify some of the cuts to health and education and social programs. There is a new initiative called new Partners for Careers program, a $200,000 budget item.

We think that this is going to be financed by a cut to the aboriginal development program of an equal amount of money, $200,000, and we know that there have been many cuts in programs to aboriginal people over the last few years. For example, the Northern Youth Job Corps used to fund 500 people each summer in 19 89, and that has been eli minated. New Careers has been eliminated. Funding to friendship centres in 19 93 was elim inated. The grants to MKO and AMC were elimin ated in 19 93.

Access programs were cut by $2 million in 1994 and a further $1. 4 million in 19 95, and they never spent the $1 million set aside for the aboriginal justice initiative in several years. Now, the government would like us to believe that there is no money and that that is why we cannot pay for these programs, but we know that there is a lot of wealth in this country. The problem is the inequitable sharing of wealth in our country. Here is an example that I found from a magazine called Monitor, Reporting on Business, Labour and Govern ment, published by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives.

It talks about the extremely wealthy people in our country. It says the combined wealth of the richest 50 Canadians, all multimillionaires of course, now exceeds $39 billion according to the Fin ancial Post Magazine. Assuming that the annual income of the average poor family of four is no more than $25,000, this means that the 50 Canadians at the top of the income ladder have more money than five million low-income Canadians.

We also know that corporations are paying far less of their share in taxes to the federal government than indiv iduals, that the proportion of corporate taxes is going down as a percentage of federal government revenue and the proportion of individual revenue is constantly going up, but we never hear the provincial

580 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA March 18 , 19 97 Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) or the Premier (Mr. Fil mon) suggesting that this inequity be eliminated. We know that 81 ,462 corporations made $17 .11 billion in profits but paid no taxes in 1994.

We believe that if even some of this revenue was captured that we could do the kinds of things that we as a society should be doing to elimin ate poverty, to create jobs, to improve our health care system, to improve our education system, instead of condemning people to a life of futil ity and hopelessness and despair which is, for far too many people in the inner city and in my constituency of Burrows, the only way of life that they know. This government could do a much better job, and we look forward to them doing something more progressive and more enlightened in their next budget, but I am not hopeful.

Thank you. Mr. Denis Rocan (Gladstone): Chers deputes du Palais legislatif du Manitoba, aujourd'hui j'ai l'honneur et le privilege de me lever dans l'Assemblee legislative pour assister au debat sur Ia question du budget pour l'annee 1997.

C'est vraiment de Ia part de mes electeurs que je parle, et je me tiens de bout devant vous, tier et pret a repondre avec certitude et beaucoup de satisfaction aux initiatives de notre gouvernement tant pour l'economie que pour le futur de notre province. [Translation] Dear members of the Legislature of Manitoba, today I have the honour and the privil ege of rising in the Legislative Assembly to participate in the debate on the question of the budget for the year 1997.

It is really on behalf of my constituents that I am speaking, and I stand before you proud and prepared to respond with certainty and great satisfaction to the initiatives of our government concerning both the economy and the future of our province. [English) I would like to take this opportunity in this budget-that this government has placed the highest priority on deliv ering quality health and education services, on supporting chi ldren and on helping families. In such a way, I think it is appropriate to highl ight one very special family who reside in my constituency.

They are Ed and Heather Lavich, who live on a farm outside of Carberry and who were blessed with the birth of quadruplets on August 17 , 1996. I am pleased to say that the four little bundles of joy, Myles, Greg, Janelle and Maryn, celebrated their seventh-month birthday yesterday. Ed and Heather have been doing an admirable job of looking after their four babies and an older daughter, with the help of a home helper from Child and Family Services. two hired helpers and a network of neighbours. family and volunteers.

I am honoured to have them residing in my constituency, and I admire the relentless effort they have put forth in raising their extraordinary new family. Now back to the task at hand. The 1997 budget represents the culmination of nine years of careful and consistent management and direction of Manitoba's financial and economic policies. I would like to firstly express my admiration for Premier Filmon and for the stewardship that he has provided in his role as Premier of this great province. He has demonstrated careful and consistent leadership, and I admire him as a Leader, colleague and a friend.

I would also like to express my personal admiration to former Fin ance minister Clayton Manness and our present Minis ter of Fi nance, the Honourable Eric Stefanson, for their dili gence in getting us to this point. This Conservative government set out on the course to financial rectitude nine years ago and, throughout the years, I have had the great pleasure of working with both min isters and seeing them wisely and astutely managing the fiscal affairs of this province.

I would also like to extend a special thank you to former Deputy Minis ter of Fi nance, Charlie Curtis, for his role as a senior bureaucrat in helping orchestrate these successful reforms. I stand here today with a great sense of pride. knowing that Manitobans throughout this great province are already reaping the benefits of a recharged economy through an abundance of new jobs. entrepreneurial opportunities and secured vital services. This budget signals the beginning of an era of

March 18 , 19 97 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 581 unprecedented opportunity and achievement for the economy and for the people of Manitoba. It is a symbol of a more prosperous and positive future and a better tomorrow for all Manitobans.

This budget is truly historic as it represents the first time in a generation that we have a budget that projects a surplus for the third consecutive year along with the first payment being made on the provincial debt. * (15 10 ) With the provision for the first $7 5 million repayment of our accumulated debt, we have ef fectively lifted the burden of debt from our children's shoulders. I can stand here proudly, knowing that our fiscal house is in order and will continue to be in order to ensure a prosperous environmen t for the future of our child ren and our grandchildren.

This Con servative government knows and has demonstrated the importance of spending taxpayers' money wisely and in the best interest of all Manitobans. Our goal has been and continues to be the creation of a competitive and diversified economy which will provide increased investment and job opportunities for all citizens and which will pay for quality health, education and social programs. These are the areas which we feel merit investment. We believe in investing in the priority areas of health, education and vital services, rather than squandering taxpayers' money on interest payments.

This Conse rvative government has committed itself to careful and consi stent stewardship of Manitoba's financial and economic policies, and we have carried through on our promises. This government's dedication to fiscal management is working, and Manitoba is working. Our winning economy is stronger, more confident and more competitive than ever before. Being a particularly extensive document, I would like to concentrate on several highlights of the 19 97 budget which I feel are of signifi cant importance to my constituents residing in the constituency of Gladstone.

There is no service that Manit obans value more than health care. We have access to one of the finest health care systems anywhere. Given this fact, we must also recognize the considerable challenges facing our health care system, the most significant perhaps being federal transfer cuts. With changing demographics, more and more strain is being placed on our health care system to provide for our aging population. At the same time, the federal government has increasingly withdrawn funding for health care and has left the provinces to creatively pick up the difference.

This Conservative government has a plan with a clear focus for quality health care for all Manitobans. Manitoba Health will received $1 .826 billion in 19 97- 98, up $14 milli on from last year and a 37 percent increase over 19 87-88 spending. As a percent of total spending, our government has dedicated 34 cents out of every dollar to health care. This is a very signi ficant figure, and it is the highest share in all of Canada. We are committed to meeting Manitobans' health care needs now and in the future.

We have taken steps to modernize health care by ensuring that separate facilities and programs work together as a co-ordinated system. This budget provides $10 3 million for the Home Care program in 19 97-98, which is about two and one-halft imes the 19 88 level. This shift in funding moved caregiving from the high-cost institutions into the comfort of people's own homes. In addition, we are using $15 0 milli on of the proceeds of the sale of the Manitoba Telephone System to help reduce the debt owed by hospitals and personal care homes.

This easing of the debt burden frees up funds which will consequently be used for facil ity improvements and the deli very of better services to all Manitobans. With the establishment of regional health authorities across the province, this Conser vative government has taken the initi ative to co-ordinate decision making province-wide. Manitoba Health will be discussing the capital needs and priorities of communities with all health authorities. The authorities will assess the capital needs of their regions for the next five years and provide a response by the end of September.

Manitoba Health will consequently consider and eval uate these recommendations. The government has also created a special fund to help rural health authorities access capital money to conver t space in their facili ties to provide more appropriate services needed by their communities.

58 2 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 18 , 19 97 In terms of education, this budget dedicates $1 .03 billion towards education, a figure that is $12 million more than was budgeted last year. This Conservative government knows and is committed to a strong and modem education system that is best able to prepare the child ren of Manitoba for the rapid changes of tomorrow. The child ren of today are embarking on a journey into a technological world that most of us cannot even imagine.

In order to make a successful journey into the future, they need strong reading, writing, computing and high-level problem-solving abili ties. The knowledge that our children possess and the means and ways by which they apply this knowledge will map the path for the future success of our province. This government's path to education renewal puts increased emphasis on language arts, mathematics and science, emphasizes world-class standards and testing and more parental involvement. We have placed high priority on improving access to computers, advanced technology and distance education throughout the province.

Be ing somew hat of a computer buff myself, I am pleased that $1 million will be provided to a new program, Technology Learning Resources for Schools, that will put more computers in classrooms across Manitoba. Operational funding for school divisions will remain stable through 19 98-99. The Manitoba learning tax credit will provide $1 7.3 million in direct support to students and their families. Another $1 million of new funding will go toward scholarships and bursaries for students at community colleges and universities.

The purpose of education has always been to prepare our child ren for the challenges of life. These challenges are so very different from those we have experienced in our own generation. I am confident that the steps and initiatives that this government continues to implement will best prepare our child ren for the unforeseen challenges and opportunities of the world of tomorrow. This budget contains no new taxes and no tax increases and extends Manitoba's freeze of ma jor tax rates to a full decade. In terms of taxation adjustments, this budget extends the sales tax rebate for first-time homebuyers.

The payroll tax exemption level has increased to $1 million, meaning that over 90 percent of employers are now free of this tax. This Conservative government has introduced a wide range of measures to improve the investment climate in Manitoba, to enhance job creation and to generate new income and wealth. Our fiscal and structural reforms encourage firms to expand and locate in our province. This budget also maintains funding available for economic development ini tiatives.

One such in itiative that we continue to support is that of the Community Works Loan Program, which was introduced by this government in 19 95. This program helps communities assist local entrepreneurs to create jobs and provide services in accordance with local priorities. Another notable program which has been extended for another two years is Business Start. This program, which was init iated in 19 90. helps new small businesses commence operations by providing a loan guarantee of up to $10,000. This program has been especially successful in helping women and rural entrepreneurs start businesses.

In terms of capital maintenance and spending, this budget commits an additional $1. 3 million of provincial funds to maintain and improve our roads, highways and bridges. Also, $66 million will be made available. together with our federal, municipal and other partners. for infrastructure projects across Manitoba. Finally. in the area of agriculture, which is of particular interest to my constituents, we have introduced en hancements in the coverage provided by the Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation.

In such a way farmers will be better able to deal with the unpredictability of nature with enhanced crop insurance protection. Another exciting agricu ltural venture which we support is a new Agri-food Research and Development Ini tiative. With diversification in agriculture production and investment in new technology, Manitoba farmers are laying the groundwork for new industries and revitalized communities and economies in rural Manitoba. With an injection of $3.4 million

March 18 , 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 583 from the province, and additional funds from the federal government, the new agri-food initiative will make a substantial contribution to the long-run future of agriculture in Manitoba. *( 15 20) In conclusion, the budget is a document that many people probably do not take the time to sift through with great interest. It is, however, an extremely important document which essentially lays out the future of the province. This budget with its historic significance sends a strong message to all Manitobans and especially to our youth.

Upon achieving a third consecutive surplus and upon making the first payment on the provincial debt, Manitoba's future has just become that much more positive. Manitoba's strong economy, roused by balanced budgets and stable tax structure, gives Manitobans the opportunity to live, work and prosper right here at home. We have recorded record investment, record exports and record job creation. With a balanced budget and the ability to pay down our debt, we will have more funds to meet the needs of Manitobans.

In order to generate the jobs and resources necessary to deliver quality health care, education and services to children and families now and for generations to come, it is essential that we have a vibrant and competitive economy. We must ensure that the needs of Manitobans are met now and into the 21s t Century. With the 19 97 budget we have shown Manitobans that we are committed to making that happen. Therefore, I would ask all honourable members to join with me on Tuesday, the 25th day of March, at 5: 30 p.m., to vote in favour of this budget. Thank you very much. Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, it is always a pleasure to be able to add my remarks, both my personal remarks and party 's position in the vast majority of the cases, with respect to yet another budget. I want to start off by commenting on something that has always been important to me. I have always maintained, Madam Speaker, that the best resource that an MLA has, or any elected official has, is the constituents which they represent.

If in fact you are successful at communicating with them and building up those links, you will find that you are better able to address the many different issues that face us on a day in, day-out basis at the Manitoba Legislature.

In the last six weeks, what I did is I kind of just went through some of my files, and I pulled a few of them to give somewhat of an idea of the types of concerns that constituents of mine have brought up that I feel warrant discussions as, after the budget, we go into the line-by line Estimates and hopefully, Madam Speaker, I will get the opportunity to address these particular issues in a little bit more detail.

I had an individual, who lives on Troy A venue, that brought up the issue of midwifery and talked about the importance of the province trying to get midwifery brought more into the province, to become more popular, to provide better training. Here is an individual that sees a need and is trying to convey, through me to the government, that in fact this in an area in which the government does need to move more quicker.

In fact I can recall, I believe it was the 19 90 ele ction, when I was over at the Seven Oaks Hosp ital with our then leader, Sharon Carstairs, when we talked about having a midwifery school or educational program going through the Seven Oaks Hospital. Here I have an individual that lives on Elm Grove Drive. She is a small-business woman, who is very familiar with loopholes that are created or that are used by deadbeat parents in terms of making payments for maintenance, and talks how one can claim to be a small-business person and under that sort of a category you can use all sorts of different write-offs.

Well, again, this is an excellent issue in which the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) should be doing what he can to address it. I have a constituent who meets with me on a regular basis, pops by at least, it seems, once every six weeks anyway at a local restaurant, and he brings up the elk farm. The elk farm is a very important issue to him. When I made reference, Madam Speaker, to it in my throne speech on this particular issue I just happened to have spoken to that individual so I brought it up then.

I will not bring it up again in any detail, but suffice to say the elk farming is in fact an issue in the Chamber and here is something in which as an MLA, by tapping into constituents, we are better able to become more

584 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA March 18 , 19 97 acquainted with the grassroots and what they have to say about what the government is doing. There are other issues, the more broader issues that are out there. I am working currently on a case where there is a retail store. A constituent gives me a call and says that her son was accused of shoplifting, and a concern was raised in terms of the way in which that individual was treated, Madam Speaker. Was there some sort of racial motivation in what actually occurred?

I think this particular constituent has a lot of merit in terms of the way in which it was done, so we are trying to engage the company and try to get some sort of an action by the company to address this particular issue. The issue of racism is there today in many, many different ways, and it is something in which the government-you know I reflect back to the Manitoba intercultural combatting racism report a number of years ago where it talked about cross-cultural training or courses being made available, and one of the suggestions was that it be made available to the MLAs. That has never really occurred.

So when I listen to constituents such as this, these are the type of things which I think of. I had a letter from a fairly upset businessman, Madam Speaker, who talks about the whole way in which the reassessmen t has occurred in terms of property tax. I have spoken on many occasions on how the city does its assessments and the appeal process, and we do need to see some major changes in that whole area. In fact with this particular case, if I do not remember to do it right after I am done speaking, I would give a copy of the letter that this particular constituent sent to me to the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr.

Reimer) because I would be interested in that particular minister maybe responding to the concerns of this particular constituent. I do not know if he is actually a constituent; his business is located in my area. Madam Speaker, I bring up those because as I indicated at the opening of the remarks that indeed there is a wonderful resource that each and every one of us have and that is the constituents that we represent. I get great pleasure in trying to establish that communication connection that allows me to be better informed at addressing the many different issues facing us. Having said that.

Madam Speaker, I was wanting to get a little bit more political and start talking about the budget. When I look at this particular budget, I have absolutely no problem in saying, I cannot support this budget. It is a budget which I will vote against, and me and the member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry) are the only two members in this Chamber that can actually say that we have consistently voted against this government and the presentations of their budget after budget.

Ever since their very first budget of '88-89, there are only two members in this Chamber who can honestly say that they have voted against this government. That is the member for St. Boniface and me, with all modesty and humility.

Madam Speaker, there is a good reason why I have consis tently voted against this government and its budgets, and the simple answer is that I believe that it can be better because, yes, in certain ways you can portray this budget to be a very nice, positive budget, and I can see the spin doctors in the future, as we get closer to an election, where the government will be saying to Manitobans that we froze your personal income tax over the last I 0 years, we have not increased your sales tax. we have a balanced budget, we have a surplus. * (1 530 ) Then they are going to be throwing money into education.

They are going to be throwing money into health care, and rum our has it it might be after the Pan Am Games or just prior to the Pan Am Games. You can start to see the groundwork already today that is being set to try to put that spin on. Well, Madam Speaker, my intentions are to let the constituents whom I represent and, through the vehicle of the Liberal Party, as many Manitobans know that this government is being very, very selective, that there are many things that this government can, in fact, be doing today that would improve the quality of life for all Manitobans throughout the entire province.

We have not seen a government in the past eight and a half, nine years that has been successful at managing positive

March 18 , 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 585 change. Instead, this has been a government that does not want to take responsibility for its own actions. Madam Speaker, all one needs to do is to read the candidate for Portage in the next federal election, the current member for Portage Ia Prairie's (Mr. Pall ister) speech-[interjection] And the member for The Maples asks, which is he? Both currently. If you read that, the government goes at whatever cost to blame the federal counterparts for every problem that is occurring in the province. I heard the Deputy Premier (Mr.

Downey) trumpet from his seat how wonderful things are happening in the province of Manitoba. He talks about all these thousands of jobs that are being created. He does not give any credit whatsoever-he talks about the infrastructure program to the federal government, Madam Speaker. The federal government serves one purpose and one purpose only, and what this government is doing is now following the advice from the dean of the Chamber.

Madam Speaker, I remember the dean a number of years ago talking about in the budgets that new governments have this tradition, and the first thing you do is, you have these envelopes. You open up the one envelope that says, you blame the previous administration, and after a while that envelope starts to get a little bit too used.

Then what you do is, you start blaming the people in Ottawa, and then after that envelope gets a little bit too used, I believe the member, and I am sure he will correct me if I am wrong, started to say, maybe then you can start hybriding and start blaming everyone but the government of the day. That is in fact the stage that they are at currently, Madam Speaker. They have not made it to the fine art, as the New Democrats did when they were in government in terms of what I classify as fed bashing, but they are pretty darn close, I must admit, in terms of taking their shots at the federal government.

Point of Order Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Agriculture, on a point of order? Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): I have too much respect for my colleague the member for Inkster to know that he would want to put some wilful disinformation on the record. The fact of the matter is, when you open the third envelope, there is a very simple message: Call an election. Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Agriculture did not have a point of order. *** Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I appreciate the dean's advice, and I think maybe the Premier (Mr. Filmon) should follow that advice.

It seems that he has gone through the first two envelopes, and give consideration to call an election. Madam Speaker, you know, it is interesting that, when we go through Question Period, the government and even the New Democrats will look our way whenever something happens federally, assuming that we support every aspect, every decision that the federal government is doing. We are not necessarily supportive if the federal government brings in something that we believe is not in the best interest. I was saddened to see that the transfer payments are not, in fact, increasing. In fact, they have been decreasing.

Sure that saddens me, but what is important is that we got to ensure that we get our share first and foremost, and what is most important is the Chretien government, for example, is making a long-term commitment to financing health care well into the next century . That is something that was not there during the Brian Mulroney years. That is something which gives me assurances that the federal Liberals are, in fact, overal l doing a better job at ensuring that we are going to have quality health care into the future.

In fact, when we take a look at the block funding formula, yes, we are experiencing some decreases, but what is happening is that by the year 2002 we will have exceeded the block funding that we are giving today. Most importantly, Madam Speaker, what I did this morning is I went to the Legislative Library, and I went back to the '88-89 budget, and in the '88-89 budget the federal government gave us $1 .398 billion in terms of our revenues, using their document of the Estimates of Expendit ures. This year, for the '97-98 year, it is $1 .555 billion.

Manitoba is, in fact, receiving a considerable amount of our budget from Ottawa, and if

586 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 18 , 19 97 you listen to the government of the day, and sometimes the New Democratic Party, you would be given the impression that Ottawa has completely abandoned the province of Manitoba, especially if you listen to the member for Portage Ia Prairie, or the new candidate, the federal candidate out in Portage Ia Prairie, talk about the federal Liberals. I could barely contain myself in my seat when he was levelling criticism after criticism about what was happening in Ottawa. How soon he has forgotten the absolute disgrace of the former administration in Ottawa.

Madam Speaker, I would ultimately argue that many of the things that are happening today in the budget in which this government is so proud of are only happening because of some of the actions from Ottawa, such as their interest rate policy, which has saved this government mill ions and millions of dollars, in excess of$45 million. What this government should be doing is acknowledging that not everything that is positive that they talked about in this budget is only because of them. Talk about the infrastructure program. Those are jobs. This government tried to get it back in '88-89.

The Mulroney government ignored them. Remember the Premier popped the deputy or the Prime Minister in the nose. He did not literally pop him in the nose, but there was the suggestion. It goes back a number of years, but the bottom line is that this government could not accomplish an agreement on an infrastructure program with the Mulroney government. It took the Chretien government to come in with a program of this nature. Madam Speaker, when we talk about other initiatives, the government talks highly of the Team Canada, as well they should, because we will all benefit from Team Canada.

When we talk about immigration policy, the New Democrats go out of their way because they see a political opportunity here to try to portray the federal Liberals as a racist government by talking about the head tax. Well, nothing could be further from the truth. Yes, it would nice if we did not have to have that landing fee. Provincially the party did not support it, because we recognized the benefits of it, but it is not a head tax. It is being portrayed as a head tax because there are racial connotations to it. What, in reality, has the government done, the government of Ottawa?

For the first time we have a bilateral immigration agreement which Manitobans can be very proud of. Manitoba has benefited tremendously. Look over the last year at how many more immigrants have come to the province as a result of a positive relationship that has been developed from this provincial government and the government in Ottawa.

But, having said that, I understand and I appreciate that there are political points that need to be scored, and those political points at times will be at the cost of the federal government maybe not being portray ed in a positive light and, quite frankly, I am prepared to accept it, but at times the government does go overboard. I would suggest to you the member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Pall ister) did go overboard, way overboard. But seeing as I am talking about intergovernmental relations, what is also important is the relationship between the City of Winnipeg and the Province of Manitoba.

The Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Reimer) is here currently and right offhand the compl iment I would throw, a personal compliment that I would throw to the minister is that I was quite pleased in what took place with the St. Germaine and Vermette and what the minister had done. Hopefully not too many liberals will criticize me for saying that but, generally speaking, I think that the minister did a fairly decent job at attempting to resolve that particular issue. * (1 540) But having said that, we need to start addressing the needs of the city of Winnipeg.

When we talk about intergovernmental relations, it goes more than just the rural municipalities. It also-we talk about the city of Winnipeg. We have got to start talking about the Capital Region, putting more emphasis in the importance of the Capital Region, because equally rural Manitoba needs Winnipeg, Winnipeg needs rural Manitoba We all need to be working together, and we are not doing the city of Winnipeg any fav ours if we do not address the needs of the Capital Region. So when the government talks about offloading, Madam Speaker, offloading from Ottawa to Manitoba,

March 18 , 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 587 keep in mind the allegations that are quite often levelled at the province for offloading. So it works both ways. I know unfortunately I have a limit, but I am not done yet. I want to talk about debt and deficit, because this government is using this as one of its biggest propaganda pieces ever, and when I think of the government and its debt and the way in which this government has handled its financial affairs over the years, the first thing that comes across my mind is, and I bel ieve I have used it in the past, the Manness illusion.

The Manness illusion was in essence the creation of the Fiscal Stabilization Fund. The Fiscal Stabilization Fund was a creation because the government actually had a surplus. So what they did-the member for Selkirk from the New Democrats says, hear, hear. His party supported the slush fund. You voted for it. There was only two members today that are inside this Chamber that also voted against the slush fund and, again, it was the member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry) and me. But the creation of that slush fund created also a debt for that year of in excess of $15 0 milli on.

That is what was used to create a slush fund. What we have seen is the government manipulate that fund in order to try to make th

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-3-12
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 3rd hansardpdf 12.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	eff8a767778a37eab494fbbecb73a44671557cd0

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