Resource Committee — department of advanced education and skills — 9 May 2016

2016-05-09

Newfoundland and Labrador — Committees

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May 9,

RESOURCE

COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Lisa Dempster, MHA for Cartwright L'Anse au

Clair, substitutes for Brian Warr, MHA for Baie Verte Green Bay, for part of

the meeting.

The

Committee met at 9:10 a.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Warr):

I just wanted to welcome

everybody and we'll get started. We've got a couple of members who are just

running a few minutes late so they'll join us when they arrive.

We're dealing with Advanced Education and Skills this morning and I'd like to,

again, welcome everybody. We'll start off with some short introductions.

Minister Byrne, if you would start and we can

MR. BYRNE:

Sure.

Thank you very, very much, colleagues and officials that are joining us for

this, the Estimates presentation on Advanced Education and Skills.

CHAIR:

Gerry excuse me just

the introductions first.

MR. BYRNE:

Sure.

Before I begin, what I should do is prudently say this is my first time ever

attending an Estimates, either participating or watching. So I'll follow along

with your flow, if that's okay.

One

of the first orders of business that I've been instructed to do, and very glad

to do so, is to introduce the senior officials who are joining me here at the

table.

Debbie, if I could get you to begin; if you could just introduce yourselves and

your positions.

MS. DUNPHY:

Debbie Dunphy, Assistant Deputy Minister of Corporate Services.

MR. HANLON:

Brendan Hanlon, Departmental Controller.

MR. GARDINER:

Bob Gardiner, Assistant Deputy Minister for Post-Secondary Education.

MS. WHEATON:

Roxie Wheaton, Assistant Deputy Minister responsible for Regional Service

Delivery and Income and Social Supports.

MR. HOGAN:

Dennis Hogan, Assistant

Deputy Minister for Workforce Development and Immigration.

MR. BRAZIL:

David Brazil, District of

Conception Bay East Bell Island.

MR. COLLINS:

Sandy Collins, the Office

of the Opposition.

MS. MICHAEL:

Lorraine Michael, St.

John's East Quidi Vidi.

MS. WILLIAMS:

Susan Williams, Researcher, Third Party.

MR. FINN:

John Finn, MHA,

Stephenville Port au Port.

MS. P. PARSONS:

Pam Parsons, MHA,

Harbour Grace Port de Grave.

CHAIR:

My name is Brian Warr.

I'm the MHA for Baie Verte Green Bay.

We'll get started. Will the Clerk please call the first subhead?

CLERK (Ms. Hammond):

1.1.01.

CHAIR:

Shall 1.1.01 carry?

Minister Byrne, you have the floor for opening statements.

MR. BYRNE:

Thank you.

Mr.

Chair, if I could just begin with some brief opening statements. We'll spend

most of the time obviously on questions, which is the best way to proceed. But

since there are some members that are relatively new, not only to the

Legislature but as well to the Department of Advanced Educations and Skills,

I'll just give some brief opening introductory remarks.

want to say thank you for this opportunity. The Department of Advanced Education

and Skills, I believe, touches the lives of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians on

so very many levels. Whether it's through skills training, student financial

assistance or various social and economic supports, the objective of this

department is to help people. It's guided by the philosophy that, to the

greatest extent possible, people should be provided with the means to enable

them to live independent and fulfilling lives.

The

Department of Advanced Education and Skills is responsible for $859 million of

the provincial budget, which is about 9.6 per cent of the entire provincial

budget this year. These expenditures include: $323 million in a grant and aid to

Memorial University of Newfoundland, $90.8 million to the College of the North

Atlantic, $230.4 million to provide benefits and supports under the Income

Support Program and just over $22 million annually to student financial

assistance. These are among other initiatives. We want to ensure that only the

best services and programs are offered to Newfoundlanders and Labradorians to

help them achieve employment and independence.

This

is the third year of a reorganizational structure within the Department of

Advanced Education and Skills. Work has continued to be more responsive to the

demands of today's changing labour market.

part of that change, the department now consists of four branches and 16

divisions, all with the shared goal of ensuring all Newfoundlanders and

Labradorians can avail of existing and emerging opportunities in today's

challenging economy.

Given the width and breadth across a department with an expansive responsibility

for social and economic development, resources are shared across divisions,

always guided by the goal of being more responsive to the development and

delivery of programs and services.

I'd

like to take a moment, if I could, to highlight some of the investments and

initiatives announced as part of Budget

2016 . We are continuing to invest in a tuition freeze which is $63 million,

including $5 million more in new funding to enable a tuition freeze for students

at Memorial University of Newfoundland and the College of the North Atlantic.

We're

continuing to provide a student aid package that is the envy of the country,

with an investment of approximately $24 million for needs-based grants and

loans. We are engaging with the College of the North Atlantic in a review to

ensure the college is best meeting the needs of students, and its course

offerings are optimized and responsive to shifting labour demands.

We're

providing some $3 million in additional funding to increase the fuel supplement

for Income Support qualifying recipients to heat their homes and residences.

Funding for the fuel supplement gives an additional monthly benefit of $42 for

Income Support recipients in Labrador who receive the fuel supplement and $21 a

month for recipients in Newfoundland. Income Support recipients in Labrador who

qualify for the fuel supplement will now receive $132 each month and eligible

recipients in Newfoundland will receive $71 per month.

summary, finding ways to do things more efficiently has been part of the call to

action of our government. In developing this budget we undertook the Government

Renewal Initiative to consult and engage people like never before, and that is

exactly what we did.

Minister of Advanced Education and Skills, I was very pleased and proud to lead

a public engagement session where we dug deep on these types of discussions.

And, in fact, some of the decisions that were taken within my department came

directly from those GRIs.

With

challenge comes opportunity. A financial challenge of historic proportions has

given us pause for thought, forcing us to ask fundamental questions about the

work of government and the value of that work to the citizens we serve. As a

government, we've been required to find efficiencies whenever possible

throughout our programs and services due to the current fiscal situation. We

will continue to find ways to do things better and more efficiently while still

providing the best services to residents of Newfoundland and Labrador.

I'd

like to say thank you for giving me the opportunity to have these opening

remarks, Mr. Chair. I'll now take questions regarding the department's budget

estimates.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Minister Byrne.

Before

we start, I'd just like to remind the senior staff of the department that if

you're required by the minister to answer any of the questions, I'd appreciate

you wait until your tally light comes on, you introduce yourself and you can

answer the question.

Mr.

Brazil.

MR. BRAZIL:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank

the minister and his staff for this opportunity. I have one question under

1.1.01, under Salaries. It was budgeted last year for $159,900, the revised was

$138,000. I do realize at the time there was blending of a minister responsible

taking two line departments, but it seems like a substantial increase to

$197,500. Can you explain under the salary base, please?

MR. BYRNE:

There are two things that

are happening here. One is that, in terms of the original budget, the

parliamentary assistant position was not filled in the 2015-2016, which amended

things in terms of the lower forecast for 2015-16.

But the

minister's salary of $55,300 and the car allowance of $8,000 was originally

budgeted within SWSD in 2015-16, and so the rightsizing of the budget and moving

of the ministerial salary requirements to the department see, you may recall,

David, this was a department that actually had one minister for two separate

departments. So originally the minister's budget was captured within the other

departments. With this now as being a stand-alone, the minister's salary had to

be transferred over into this department. That would be a plausible explanation

of the increase.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay, so this would include

salaries, the car allowances, all the added expenses relevant to

MR. BYRNE:

That's correct.

MR. BRAZIL:

the minister's travel.

MR. BYRNE:

Well, the travel would be

MR. BRAZIL:

The travel is separate, yes,

but under the car allowance expense.

MR. BYRNE:

Correct, to the best of my

(inaudible).

MR. BRAZIL:

And obviously there are no

parliamentary secretaries salaries built in to any of that?

MR. BYRNE:

That's right.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay, that's the only

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and

again, thanks to the minister and his staff for being here this morning.

Under

1.2.01, it's not lot, but if we could have, Minister, just an explanation of the

salary line, the drop in the revision in the budget last year and then back up,

but still under last year's budget.

MR. BYRNE:

Sure.

2015-2016 the revised went from $127,200 from the original budget. The increase

is due to a payout of retirement benefits in some instances and some severance

Well, I will not fault you

because I think through the course of these Estimates you will find that I will

probably be making the exact same juxtapositions every once in a while myself.

So I'm sure we'll both have the capacity to forgive each other.

The

increases were due to some retirements and some severances that were paid out,

not only for an ADM position but as well for a deputy minister's secretary and

the offset by two partial-year vacancy of the secretary for an ADM and for media

relations. So that will explain some of the variances.

You

also may be wondering why the Estimates are down by $75,000 from the 2015-16

original budget. There was a removal of an additional pay period for one of my

assistant deputy ministers. It's a relatively small amount of money, $5,000.

There was a lining of the budget closer to actuals, which is the rightsizing of

salary budgets to Administrative Support of approximately $70,000.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you very much.

Under

the same head, if we could look at Supplies, under Operating Accounts. The

Supplies were budgeted last year for $4,000, $3,000 was spent but this year it's

going up to $6,000. What's the expected need for greater supplies in this area?

MR. BYRNE:

This was based on a

three-year historical actuals and requirements of the office. This was actually

one of the suggestions that were made to us from the Department of Finance.

In the

course of their fiscal forecast and their planning, they went back and looked at

three years of actuals, not just the year previous. They noted budgeting had

normally occurred at about $4,000 but the actual requirements of the office for

general administration for supplies was actually normally quite higher. So they

came back and somewhat insisted that we rightsize the budget, don't put in an

amount lower than what you normally spent.

There

was some giving back and forth as to what was appropriate and inappropriate.

What came out at the end of the process was that we were spending about $6,000,

very legitimately, on supplies. They somewhat insisted that you should rightsize

accordingly.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay. Thank you.

Under

the same head, Purchased Services, you seem to be almost maintaining what the

revision was last year, $8,000 and $8,200 this year. What comes under Purchased

Services in your office in the Executive Support?

MR. BYRNE:

Purchased services are

everything from copier charges to printing to occasional room rentals and

general purchased services. It's a pretty broad category but a big chunk of it

I'll ask Ms. Dunphy is the photocopier charges and other things.

MS. DUNPHY:

That's right.

MR. BYRNE:

The assistant deputy

minister acknowledges that photocopying charges is the big one.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay, thank you very much.

Moving

on to the next head Mr. Chair, can I just ask, I forget which heads were

covered, 1.2

CHAIR:

1.2.01 to 1.2.04 inclusive.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay. Thank you.

Under

1.2.02, again in the Salaries if we could have an explanation because the budget

last year was $2,380,000 and the revision was $2,526,400. If we could just have

an explanation of that, please.

MR. BYRNE:

Okay, just drilling down on

the budget of 2015-16 versus the Estimates of 2016-17.

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes.

MR. BYRNE:

There's a slight increase.

The salary budget here has been rightsized. There was some budget transferred

from the Minister's Office and the Executive of approximately $95,700. There was

a government-wide attrition management plan that affected these numbers as well

of $40,200.

Does

that complete your requirements?

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes, just getting an

explanation of what was happening there.

The

same head, Employee Benefits, last year the budget was $210,700. It was revised

down to $161,400 and this year sort of being maintained, just about, at that

rate. What caused such a differential between the budget and the revision last

year in Employee Benefits?

MR. BYRNE:

This is a really interesting

question. The decrease relates directly to lower than anticipated worker'

compensation payments to the Workplace Health, Safety and Compensation

Commission for injured workers. These savings were used to offset some other

costs below, but the Workplace Health, Safety and Compensation Commission, the

payments for the past three years were substantially, basically, moderated a

fair bit over the number of years. So the decrease here is largely attributable

to those lower costs.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay. Thank you very much.

Under

Supplies, last year budgeted at $79,200, only spent $30,000. I'm assuming you're

thinking that's more the norm of what your Supplies line should be because

you're keeping it at $29,500.

MR. BYRNE:

Yes, the historical spending

is around $45,000 per year, if you look back historically. But we felt this was

an area that we could really tighten our belts a little bit. So it is lower than

historical, but I think prudent nonetheless.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

The big

one I'd like to look at is the Purchased Services.

MR. BYRNE:

Yes.

MS. MICHAEL:

Last year the budget was

$3,219,000, the expenditure was up by $101,000 to $3.3 million and this year

$2.9 million, so almost $3 million. So we have a differential this year from

last year's budget of $263,500. Can we have an explanation of that whole line,

what the Purchased Services entails there and why there's such a differential?

MR. BYRNE:

Sure. Thank you for the

question.

Purchased Services relate to mostly, in large measure, office leases. There are

25 office leases within the portfolio. That amounts to annual expenditures of

approximately $2,845,000 per year, in addition to some of the other costs

associated with this particular line, including banking fees, file storage and

other printer/copying charges which amount to approximately $20,000. So in terms

of some of the reductions that you're seeing, that can be directly attributed to

some of the decisions of Budget 2016

and some of the office leases.

MS. MICHAEL:

I'm sorry; I didn't get

quite what you said there?

MR. BYRNE:

In terms of the reductions

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes.

MR. BYRNE:

in some of this, of course

we've pared down many of the leases, the offices within the department.

MS. MICHAEL:

So some of it is the closure

of the offices.

MR. BYRNE:

Exactly.

MS. MICHAEL:

Could you remind us how many

offices are being closed?

MR. BYRNE:

There are eight offices in

total; seven, plus one virtual office. There was an office operating out of

temporary facilities, but there are seven offices throughout the province.

MS. MICHAEL:

I'm going to ask this now,

Chair, because I realize we didn't sort of set it up at the beginning and you

may have details on that in your briefing notes.

Minister, can we expect to receive the briefing notes for Estimates at the end

of today?

MR. BYRNE:

Sure, absolutely.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you very much.

Minister, could I ask what analysis was done in making the decision about the

offices that closed. Are there written documents to that effect that would

explain that to us?

MR. BYRNE:

There are indeed. I'll just

kind of explain in broad strokes the circumstances that we're in. This is more

about actually adapting to our clients as opposed to asking our clients to adapt

to us.

Members

will know that service delivery methods are changing. We're moving more and more

to telephone. Over the last number of decades, more and more service delivery is

done through telephone; a lot more is done through Internet portal.

This is

one of the best examples I can give about how things are changing and how

rapidly they're changing. There were 636 student employment job applications

employers submitted 636, at the time of my most recent briefing. There were 636

job applications or grant applications that were received by the department for

the student summer programs. Of those 636, 630 of them were actually done by the

Internet portal. More and more clients are actually using both telephone

services and the Internet portal to be able to meet their own expectations and

their own needs. And I think by and large it's done very satisfactorily.

Now,

will there be clients that still need face to face? Absolutely, and that's why

we'll still have face-to-face delivery. Clients are still able and encouraged to

arrange for face-to-face visits, either at regional offices or we can have an

Income Support officer come visit them through a coordinated approach, through

coordinated appointments.

What we

looked at was caseloads. What are the current caseloads and what are some of the

demands the offices are responding to. What we're finding is that more and more,

it's not government that's really imposing a change, the clients themselves are

looking more and more for home-based telephone and Internet-based access to

those programs. So we can provide you with some more information about the

client loads, what kind of client services were being offered at each office and

so on. That might be very helpful to you.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you.

What Ms. Michael had asked

leads me into, before I go to the student loan

section there under 1.2.04 and

I know we're going to get the information relevant to the rationale behind the

closing of the offices, but it does lead me to particularly the AES office

closing in my district on Bell Island. And I do realize I was part of the

staffing over there about how technology has advanced potential for clients to

be able to access information and do it more efficiently and more timely.

But

some of the challenges you have in communities like Bell Island, for example,

are the Internet access is minimal. The closing of the library was the open

Internet access that the clientele had, who were on AES in most cases. It's

still an extremely high volume of clientele over there, particularly around

and from what I understand the medical transportation process will be now picked

up by AES to a certain degree, which is a big uptake on Bell Island itself.

So I

see it as a major hindrance and I do ask with two staff people as part of the

office process I see it as a minimal savings in principle. I actually see it

as, probably, less cost-effective than people would think when you go into the

long term.

Can you

give me an understanding of and I know the rationale will be explained, but

I'm caught on the Bell Island one. I can't seem to see the rationale behind the

savings with a clerk and a mid- to low-management position, based on the

clientele.

MR. BYRNE:

Thank you very much for the

question.

There

are three real principal drivers to this; one is that there is a cost savings,

which is important. But more important is the fact that service delivery

expectations from the client are changing, they are evolving. More and more,

even on Bell Island, clients are utilizing the Internet through their own

sources, and as well the telephone. And there will still be access to

face-to-face service delivery. In fact, there'll be a combination.

Many,

many clients from Bell Island will still avail of offices. They still do a

substantial amount of their own personal chores and activities are still off

Bell Island itself. So that's not inconsistent, I don't think .

Part of that might be a visit to a more regional or centered AES office.

With

that said, to kind of give the rationale, I'll just read from a press release.

the most efficient and effective use of our resources is the consolidation of

offices throughout the province. Improvements in transportation, communication

and other technologies have enabled a more efficient income and employment

support service delivery network. Service

delivery sites will now be located in key centres to optimize opportunities for

partnering with employers, community agencies and other levels of government.

Outreach and other strategies will ensure there is efficient and effective

service to clients in remote communities.

As I read that, I'm struck by

how important that is to sort of make sure you move with the times, that you

still respond to the core demands and needs of clients; but, at the same time,

you try to foster those efficiencies. Now, in 2016, I think that opportunity is

larger now than ever before.

MR. BRAZIL: I

do agree in principle, just wearing my political hat for my district. You

mentioned the three key things which are our biggest hindrance. The

communications issue is a major issue on Bell Island because high-speed Internet

doesn't exist. None of the existing companies will expand. Even things like

cable, is not accessible any longer. There's no expansion potential.

From a transportation point of

view, we all know the dilemma we're in, particularly on the Bell Island, and all

of our ferry runs, but particularly Bell Island. If you look at the clientele

list, which I would suspect if we're not the highest demand on the system, we're

up there. The uniqueness of some of the needs of the clientele put us in a

different category.

I would like to have that on

record, I agree to disagree. At the end of the day, I think this is going to be

an exercise in futility. It's going to cost more to administer the AES office

needs from Bell Island, but we'll have a debate on that in the House later on.

I do have a question under

1.2.04, Grants and Subsidies. It seems to be a dramatic drop, almost $10

million. Can you outline exactly the change in philosophy and the change in

policy and the programs that are going to be delivered under that, please?

MR. BYRNE:

Sure.

This is under the Newfoundland

and Labrador Student Loans Programs.

MR. BRAZIL:

Yes, Sir.

MR. BYRNE: I'll

ask my ADM, Bob Gardiner, to jump in here in a second, but basically the bulk of

this relates to savings from a cash flow savings of $9.1 million as a result of

paying off the loan portfolio to the chartered bank.

Some years ago, the Government

of Newfoundland and Labrador assumed ownership or bought outright the entire

portfolio of the student loans program from

CIBC, I believe. So,

obviously, interest payments had to be made that were tied to that. That payment

to CIBC is now completed. So that resulted in the bulk of the savings.

Mr.

Gardiner, would you be able to elaborate any further on that?

MR. GARDINER:

I can a little bit.

As the

minister indicated, this is basically paying off the loan that was inherited

from CIBC many years ago. There was an aggressive payment

schedule put in place,

such that for example, in '14-'15 there was a $24 million payment;'15-'16

there was a $20 million payment. This current fiscal year there'll be a $2

million payment made in June, which will effectively pay off the loan; hence,

the reduction of $10 million.

The

reduction that's showing up in Estimates from $30 million down to $20 million is

no indication of a change in policy or anything with respect to payout of

student loans or student grants. Whether it's a grant or a loan, that dollar

amount doesn't change because it's still money out the door. The only difference

is in what comes back, if it's a loan versus a grant.

MR. BRAZIL:

Yes, fair enough.

Related

to that, I noticed in the budget documents that you'll increase collections of

income and employment support overpayments. How is the process going to change

from you guys now taking responsibility for that debt load?

MR. GARDINER:

Basically, CRA had responsibility for some of the collections and we had

responsibility for other collections, depending on the year of the loan. Through

the analysis, it was determined that our collection rate was better than CRAs.

Basically, we were paying CRA approximately $300,000 to do collections;

whereas,

we've determined that our collection rate was better. So we could save $300,000

there and enhance our collection rate as well.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay, fair enough.

question around consultation you may have had around making these decisions with

any of the other proponents, like the federation of students around the student

loan process. Was there an open dialogue? Was there an engagement process?

MR. BYRNE:

Thank you very much for the

question.

I had

an opportunity to meet with the Canadian Federation of Students, and I actually

attended their AGM some time ago with, I believe there were about 22 student

leaders from around the province. I also had an opportunity to meet on an

individual basis with several of the student leadership to talk a little bit

about the whole notion to get their perspective not only on grants, the

student financial assistance program, but the overall tuition environment and

other measures. Obviously, it was very clear I'm sure you can appreciate that

that there was an appetite and a desire to maintain a full grant system. So we

took that input, as well from the input of others who were advising us, that we

had to get our massive, massive financial circumstance under control. We tried

to take a balanced approach.

What I

can say to you about the decision because I think, Mr. Brazil, you want to

talk a little bit about the grants and loans, if I'm reading you right.

MR. BRAZIL:

Yes, exactly.

MR. BYRNE:

Tuition in Newfoundland and

Labrador at Memorial University of Newfoundland is approximately $2,550 per full

academic year, for two semesters. With a change from grants to loans for a

portion of the original grant package, the grant that will still be available to

all students in financial need will still be well over the actual cost of the

tuition. It will be $3,300 per year.

One of

the things that was said to me you may have heard that Ontario and New

Brunswick have moved to a new system of student financial assistance, and

they've trumpeted very loudly. This was not what guided our decision, but it was

brought up on several occasions that Ontario had moved to a more robust system

of student financial assistance.

What

was noted was that, in Ontario, the total amount of grant that was available to

low-income students was equal to tuition. Not exceeded, but equal to tuition.

This was not what guided our decision but it sort of put it in perspective. As I

spoke to student leaders about their perspectives on this, it became an

interesting point of the conversation.

Now,

with that said, we've gone from $140 per academic week of studies for someone

engaged in a full-time course load; $140 per week in a grant to $100 a week in

grant and $40 in opportunity for a loan. That does not mean we are still not at

a full granting system because, as you're aware, since 2004 with the Debt

Reduction Grant, a student who attends academic studies on a full-time basis in

a program that lasts over 80 weeks in duration, can still take advantage.

Whatever loan they have, if they pass their course on a semester-by-semester

basis, that loan will still be forgiven at the conclusion of their studies. So

we still, in essence, have a full granting system in place. It's just with the

one nuance the one change here is there'll still be a very, very generous

grant that's offered to students of $100 per week of academic study. Then we'll

also have the $40 loan, but the loan portion can still be written off at the end

of their studies if they pass their course. It's not requiring of any particular

GPA. It's just whether or not they pass.

MR. BRAZIL:

I appreciate that.

I know

my time is up. I'll come back to a couple of other questions after.

CHAIR:

Okay.

Ms.

Michael, did you have anything else on 1.2.01 to 1.2.04?

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes, just a couple.

Just

for clarification, the loan part will be written off if they pass their program.

Is that what you ?

MR. BYRNE:

That's correct.

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes, I just wanted that made

clear.

MR. BYRNE:

I can get into it a little

bit. I don't want to undermine the there are a couple of little details there.

They have to pass. It has to be a course of 80 weeks of duration. They don't

have to pass every semester. It's done on a semester-by-semester calculation. So

if a student has one bad semester, under certain circumstances, it doesn't

it talks about the annualized savings because of the change; but, in actual

fact, probably that figure is not totally accurate. There may be annualized

savings when it goes out but there will be a savings for the student at the end.

MR. BYRNE:

Which particular document

are you referring to?

MS. MICHAEL:

I have

another question related to loans and grants. There was a decision, of course,

no longer to provide grants to students studying outside of the province in a

program available in Newfoundland and Labrador. I've actually had some phone

calls about that.

Two

questions, one is: How much money really was that? How many people were getting

grants? Number two, the rationale because there are numbers of reasons why

people may be studying outside.

The

people who have gotten in touch with me is because of the partner being outside

of the province for different reasons; short-term work, for example, or other

reasons. So the person who's studying outside was because of connection in a

relationship, that kind of thing. So there are different reasons why people may

study outside. It may look like the program is the same, but in actual fact

there may be slight differences that made the person go to where they're going.

I'd

like to know how much money was involved and what is the rationale?

MR. BYRNE:

Well, I'll dig deep into the

rationale, first, and then I'll ask my assistant deputy minister, Bob, to

respond to the actual money part.

Let me

provide some relief in that there are still some very worthwhile and

understandable exceptions to the policy. If a course of study is not available

in Newfoundland and Labrador, then that's exempt from that particular policy. So

the general thrust of the policy is to encourage students, Newfoundlanders and

Labradorians, to study here at home, to be able to make sure that our university

is operating at peak capacity and efficiency. Where we're offering courses and

spending taxpayers' money to be able to do so, then I think, arguably, it makes

a lot of sense to encourage students, through the financial assistance program

if that's what they want or need to use, to study here at home.

But if

there is a program, like say, for example, physiotherapy, it's not available in

Newfoundland and Labrador. Where it's not available here, that would be an

exempt program. If a student applies for a program that is available in

Newfoundland and Labrador but is not accepted but is accepted outside the

province, then, of course, that circumstance would be reviewed.

Madam

Michael, one of the things I always note is that if there are exceptionalities,

if there are exceptional circumstances, the student financial assistance appeal

process is always available to students who are in receipt or who take issue

with an administrative decision of the program.

What

we're finding is that, by and large, in most cases, if there are reasonable,

exceptional circumstances and I won't be able to speak to this particular

example right now.

MS. MICHAEL:

No, I realize.

MR. BYRNE:

But in those examples it

usually sides in the favour of the student.

Mr.

Gardiner, would you be able to comment on the financial component of Madam

Michael's question?

MR. GARDINER:

Sure.

The

numbers are not big. I have seen the number, I haven't got it on the top of my

head but it's less than 500 students. So it's not really a big monetary value,

less than a couple hundred thousand dollars, probably. I think it was more on

principle in terms of if the program's available here it should be studied here.

To the

minister's point, if the program is available here and a student doesn't get

into the program but gets accepted somewhere, then they are covered. So there

are exceptions to the rule.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

So for

clarification, Minister, I mean in one way it says there will be no more grants

for students studying outside the province if the program exists here. Yet,

you're telling me that, in actual fact, if somebody wanted to appeal, they could

appeal, even though it looks like that particular program is gone? I just want

to be clear on that.

MR. BYRNE:

They don't have to appeal.

If they're enrolled or accepted to a course of study which is not normally

available in Newfoundland and Labrador, then they're considered as studying in

Newfoundland and Labrador.

MS. MICHAEL:

I have that, yes.

MR. BYRNE:

It's like Twitter, it's very

difficult to capture the nuances of a huge, huge program in a very small number

of characters, but I guess that's really what Estimates are for, aren't they?

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes.

MR. BYRNE:

So those are the details. A

program that's available in Newfoundland and Labrador and its acceptance is

readily available and the student has actually applied for that program and was

accepted, then the understanding was that they'd study and be eligible for

financial assistance here. If they were to choose not to even apply to a program

that existed in Newfoundland and Labrador

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

MR. BYRNE:

but chose to study out of

province, then that opportunity would not be available to them.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay. If they have an

argument they can at least put the argument forward.

MR. BYRNE:

If there is an argument

and I won't prejudge the outcome of that argument

MS. MICHAEL:

No, no, I understand that.

I have

one more question. This would be under 1.2.03, Program Development and Planning.

Under Salaries, last year there was a drop of $248,500 from the budget to the

revision. This year we're back up to $1,810,000. Can I just have an explanation

of the line straight across, please?

MR. BYRNE:

Debbie, would you be able to

pick up while I just check my notes here?

MS. DUNPHY:

Certainly, yes.

The

projected revised is down because we had a vacant administrative officer

position, a partial-year vacancy of a program policy officer, a business analyst

and another program person under our service improvement division.

It's

just basically some vacancies throughout the year which we're working on now,

trying to fill those. That's why the budget is back up to the $1.8 million. It's

down a little bit from '15-'16 because there's an adjustment for attrition

management, but we are hoping to fill those vacancies. Some of them have been

filled. We're still working on filling the rest.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay, thank you very much.

That's helpful.

Under

Grants and Subsidies, $32,000 was budgeted; $10,000 last year was the revision,

so down by $22,000. This year it is up to $21,000 which is still under last

year's budget. I'd like to know what actually is covered under Grants and

Subsidies that causes this sort of fluctuation.

MR. BYRNE:

It's my understanding that

this has been a program that's been housed within Advanced Education and Skills

for some time. It allows for grants to be offered to community organizations for

various activities, sometimes for programs and activities that fall outside of

the normal scope of existing grants, criteria.

Last

year, being an election year, it was only a partial year. I can't say exactly

why the program was so underutilized, but what we decided was that in the spirit

of fiscal restraint, regardless of whether the budget was $32,000 previous that

we'd reduce it to $21,000, reduce it by $11,000 as a measure of that restraint.

MS. MICHAEL:

Will your briefing notes

show where the grants and subsidies went?

MR. BYRNE:

We can certainly do that.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay, thank you.

CHAIR:

Order, please!

MS. MICHAEL:

Those are all my questions,

Mr. Chair, for those sections.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Ms. Michael.

Mr.

Brazil.

MR. BRAZIL:

(Inaudible)

section if I

could and maybe direct it to Bob.

Where

you'll be taking the full collections under the provincial loans process, are

you adding any extra staff to do that or are you doing it in-house with the

existing, and what's your base number that you think you'll return on your

collection amounts?

MR. GARDINER:

There won't be any additional staff hired. We will be able to do it within the

existing staffing complement.

MR. BRAZIL:

Is there a target amount

that you hope to generate from this?

MS. DUNPHY:

Just to add on to what Bob just said, we do have some vacant collection

positions they're in our approved complement, so we are working on filling

those. So it is, like I said, not an increase in org structure, just we are

hoping to fill a couple of vacancies to assist.

terms of an increased amount, I know the percentage of our collections is over

what the federal collections ere I think we were about 12 per cent better. If

I could just have a moment, I could find the amount we said we'd increase.

I'll

have to come back to you with the amount.

MR. BRAZIL:

No, that's fair enough.

That's good data to know, that we're better at collections than the federal

government.

MS. DUNPHY:

Yes.

MR. BRAZIL:

So I can understand the

rationale for taking that program over.

I think

the minister wants

MR. BYRNE:

And we were paying a

$300,000 sort of retainer fee, if I understand correctly, to do that work. So by

eliminating that and yet still having the in-house human resources to be able to

do that job, I think, is important to note as well.

MR. BRAZIL:

No, it makes sense.

MS. DUNPHY:

Yes, annually, with the savings of the $300,000 fee, we are hoping to collect

another approximately $600,000 in revenue.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay, fair enough.

Mr.

Chair, that's the last question I have on those, that section.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

MS. MICHAEL:

Mr. Chair, I have one more.

This is a general one, and I've been trying to figure out where I might be able

to ask it and the only place I can see that makes any sense is talking about

students and the costs that they have to carry, et cetera.

We've

been getting a lot of phone calls about this, Minister, and I'm hoping you'll

have the answer; if not, I'll ask the Minister of Finance tomorrow. Will

post-secondary students have to pay tax on textbooks? It's a really serious

question that's coming in to us.

MR. BYRNE:

The details of that I will

probably have to defer to the Finance Minister, with the exception that

institutions will not have to pay the increase. It's my understanding that the

institutions will not have to pay the increase on the purchase of books. So like

school boards and Memorial and CNA and others, that would not be imposed on

them. In terms of the retail sale, there will be some cost changes as a result;

but rather than to walk in someone else's water, then I will defer that to the

Finance Minister.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay, I will seek

clarification tomorrow on that.

Thank

you.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Ms. Michael.

Would

the Clerk please call the next subhead?

CLERK:

2.1.01.

CHAIR:

2.1.01.

Mr.

Brazil.

MR. BRAZIL:

I'm pretty good under that,

2.1.01, Client Services.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Mr. Brazil.

MR. BRAZIL:

Nothing that stands out too

much.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

Ms.

Michael, 2.1.01.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you very much.

First

of all under Salaries the budgeted salary last year was $18,940,000-plus and it

was underspent by $512,500 it was overspent, rather, by $512,500. This year

we're back down to $18,621,000-plus. If we could just have an explanation of

that whole salary line there, please.

MR. BYRNE:

Thank you for the question.

The

2015-16 revised budget is up exactly $512,500 compared to the 2015-16 original

budget. This increase or salary overage is due to payout of retirement costs for

five different positions, as well as an additional overage of approximately

$304,000 due to the implementation of some new organizational structures. That's

the variance.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay, thank you very much.

Under

the same head of course, because we're here, under Transportation and

Communications $1,103,000-plus was budgeted last year, underspent by $253,000

approximately and then in this year the budget is much closer to what was

revised last year. Could we have an explanation of what the Transportation and

Communications line here is all about and the reason for the change?

MR. BYRNE:

Sure.

MS. MICHAEL:

When I find out what it's

all about, I might get the reason for the change quickly. It might be obvious.

MR. BYRNE:

Well, I won't be able to

speak to the previous administration, but it is something that we followed up

on. The lower than anticipated expenditures were really due out of

implementation of the government-wide discretionary funding freeze on travel. We

tried to minimize it wherever possible.

terms of the current budget, the government-wide comprehensive review has

basically tried to maintain those principles while, at the same time,

rightsizing the budget on historical spending for some other expenditures. So we

really tried to keep within that.

Is it

possible to get it even lower? Well, that's where travel is a key component to

the service delivery within the regions for clients.

MS. MICHAEL:

What exactly is the travel

that's covered here? It's a pretty high line. Normally, we don't see high lines

like this under Transportation and Communications, so I'm just wondering what

that travel is that's being covered here.

MR. BYRNE:

This is for client services

within the province. This isn't for

MS. MICHAEL:

It's money that's given for

clients under the different programs?

MR. BYRNE:

No, it wouldn't be for that.

I'll

ask Roxie Wheaton to step in, in a minute. But what it is for is site visits,

for inter-office travel within the regional services, within regional offices.

My Assistant Deputy Minister of Finance points out it's also for communications

for telephone systems.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

MR. BYRNE:

It's roughly $460,000 for

phone systems. Rather than leave an incomplete answer, Ms. Wheaton, would you be

able to fill in some blanks.

MS. WHEATON:

Actually, a pretty good answer, Minister.

Across

the province we have liaison social workers who go out to meet with clients. We

have career development specialists who go out. We have staff who go out to meet

with employers.

Whenever we're signing contracts for, say, job creation projects, there is both

a need to go out and meet with the proponent to sign the contract and, then, at

a later point there's a need to go and do an inspection and follow up. It's

directly related to that and then, of course, managers travelling to offices to

meet with the staff, staff meetings and those kinds of things.

MS. MICHAEL:

That's great. Thank you very

much.

And

then, under Supplies there was a large line there last year, $183,300. Only

$65,000 was spent according to the revision and we're staying at $69,000. What

would be the Supplies that are covered under that line?

MR. BYRNE:

I'll ask Ms. Wheaton to

carry forward on that.

MS. MICHAEL:

It's just office supplies?

MS. WHEATON:

Yes, just routine office supplies; paper, pens, generally things that you would

expect the staff to require to do their jobs and to also work with clients.

MS. MICHAEL:

Sure.

MS. WHEATON: As

you can imagine, across the province we have employment centres so we actually

spend a fair bit on paper as clients come in to get their rsums printed off

and things like that; that kind of stuff.

MS. MICHAEL:

That's great. Thank you.

final question for this

section is under Purchased Services. Again, last year it

was budgeted at $253,400 and it went up by $122,100. It's more or less staying

at that this year.

What

are the Purchased Services under this head?

MR. BYRNE:

(Inaudible) first and say

that under Purchased Services; this is funding for leasehold improvements for

the 19 offices that are around, leasehold improvements of $22,000 and Managed

Print Services, which is a big, big component of this, which is $200,000.

Now,

Managed Print Services there was a contract that was let. I believe this is

part of that process in terms of the Xerox contract.

OFFICIAL:

Yes.

MR. BYRNE:

There was a contract that

was let last year for Managed Print Services to, I believe, it was Xerox. That's

costing us $200,000. There are meeting room rentals and shredding services and

general purchased services at a cost of $151,800.

terms of the overall increase, a lot of that had to do with the new contract

with Xerox that was implemented early last year and rightsizing the budget to

meet its actual demands.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you.

Minister, the offices that have been named for closure, when are they closing?

MR. BYRNE:

Individually Madam Dunphy,

if you'd be able to provide us some insight as to exactly the dates expected.

MS. DUNPHY:

Actually, I'm going to defer it to Roxie Wheaton, please.

MS. WHEATON:

They actually closed to the public at the end of April.

MS. MICHAEL:

They did.

MS. WHEATON:

Because we wanted to have

staff time to prepare for the closure. The actual movement of furnishings and

things like that will be done predominately by the end of this week.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you very much.

They're

all my questions, Chair.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

Would

the Clerk please call the next set of subheads?

CLERK:

3.1.01 to 3.1.03 inclusive.

CHAIR:

3.1.01 to 3.1.03 inclusive.

Ms.

Michael.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you.

Looking

at 3.1.01 I just want to get my questions straight here. Under the federal

revenue, $861,000 was the budget; the revision was $682,200 and this year back

up. Could we have an explanation of the variations there in the federal funding?

MR. BYRNE:

Thank you for the question.

The

province has a funding agreement with the federal government where the province

will provide income assistance to the Innu. The province invoices the federal

government for the actual costs incurred. The increase in federal revenue from

this year over last is related to an adjustment of $94,000 from that particular

agreement due to a change in uptake.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay and this is totally to

income assistance, right?

MR. BYRNE:

Correct.

MS. MICHAEL:

For low income.

MR. BYRNE:

And we have an arrangement

with the federal government to be able to provide those services. So that's to

help administer those services on the federal government's behalf. It was

directly related to a change in uptake in the program.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

And the

province is putting in an extra $500,000 this year?

MR. BYRNE:

Oh, sorry, on the provincial

line, yes.

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes.

MR. BYRNE:

That would be correct, yes.

MS. MICHAEL:

Is that going in to make up

for the loss from the federal?

MR. BYRNE:

No, that would be from our

own initiatives.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

MR. BYRNE:

The specifics of that one,

Madam Wheaton, would you be able to just provide some clarification on that?

MS. WHEATON:

As the minister indicated, we've been delivering on behalf of the federal

government

MS. MICHAEL:

Could you just speak up a

little tiny bit closer maybe into the mic? Thanks.

MS. WHEATON:

Oh, sorry. As the minister indicated, the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador

delivers income support on behalf of the federal government, and we've been

doing that for quite a while. So it's not a scientific process in terms of being

able to predict how much we're going to spend.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

MS. WHEATON:

But you might be interested in knowing that, actually, as of April 1 of this

year, we are starting to phase out our involvement. So you see a fluctuation in

revenue and some of it has to do with when the federal government reimburses us.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay, thank you very much.

That's helpful.

presume this would come under your department, Minister, because it has to do

with Income Assistance. If it's something that I need to bring to the Minister

of Finance, you can tell me. The cuts to medical transportation benefits,

looking at the urban setting for example, whether people can get taxis or

whether they get bus passes, et cetera, there have been cuts and I guess I'm

really interested in what the new rules are and what the rationale was for the

cuts. I mean, we're talking about people on Income Assistance that do not have a

lot of money.

I've

actually been stopped on the street by a number of my constituents asking me:

Ms. Michael, what can I do? I send them, of course, to my assistant to see what

we can do and can appeals be made. But people are not clear. People have been

refused bus passes and it's a real concern. I would like to know what the

rationale was behind this and are there rules that we can have a copy of. Can we

get some detailed information of what can happen here?

MR. BYRNE:

Indeed.

terms of the changes to the medical transportation assistance for Income

Support, this is just for regular scheduled visits

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes, it's not the MTAP.

MR. BYRNE:

Yeah, this is not for

ambulatory care.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

MR. BYRNE:

In terms of some

perspective, the Income Support program has an annual budget of $231 million and

medical transportation for scheduled doctors' visits amounts right now to

approximately $8 million of the annual expenditure and that envelope will still

be maintained at approximately $7,250,000. It is about a 7.5 per cent reduction,

which is about 0.3 per cent of the total Income Support budget.

What we

did hear is that it's not driven wholly and solely by the numbers here. We

looked at other jurisdictions to find out exactly where our program measures up

in terms of other jurisdictions. Even with these changes here, I think what

you'll find with a cross-jurisdictional analysis is that we still maintain one

of the most robust and needs-appropriate medical transportation systems.

Where

there's availability of public transit, I think there's a reasonable expectation

that publicly available transit would be taken advantage of, wherever possible.

In St. John's, for example, there are approximately 400 clients that are

currently using the bus, I understand. So we would look to try to allow that to

be a little more effectively utilized, wherever possible.

There

will be a cap on expenditures. We looked at the cross-jurisdictional analysis

and a cap of $3,000 per year is intended per client. If you look at Nova Scotia,

I think the cap for Nova Scotia is about $1,800 per year. So our cap, from most

jurisdictions' points of view, would be still much higher. But there was no cap

previously. It was relatively open ended. What we found when we conducted a

review was that if there was a little bit better scheduling, if the least-cost

transportation venue was being used, we could really lower costs significantly

that way.

We'll

still, regardless, encourage people to use their own vehicle. Or many Income

Support clients do have a network; they often go about their life's chores with

the help of friends and family. We'll still offer a 30-cent per kilometre

private vehicle allowance, wherever appropriate, within the guidelines.

I'll

just point out some of the exceptions to the policy. Anyone living in Labrador

needing air services is not included in this particular policy. Clients needing

out-of-province medical treatment, that's not part and parcel of this particular

policy. And clients receiving regular treatments which are considered life

sustaining like dialysis or chemotherapy, they're exempt from many elements of

the policy.

I will

say this, just in terms of broad strokes; of the overall funding envelope of $8

million, what we found was that a very small proportion of the clients were

using a very large amount of the overall budget. And what we really needed to do

was try to dig down to get some greater efficiency as a result.

Methadone treatment is one. So what we needed to do was instead of just spending

more, what we needed to help make sure that we have better scheduling, better

capability of providing the transport, wherever possible, and come up with a

better result at the same time. We were spending an awful lot of money on a

relatively small group of clients that we thought that greater efficiencies

Yes. It's interesting to see

how many people may have moved into employment who have been on Income Support.

MS. WHEATON:

That's not information that

I have. Generally, on any given month, we have 500, 600, 700 cases coming on;

Thank you, Ms. Michael.

Mr.

Brazil.

MR. BRAZIL:

Under 3.1.01, Transportation

and Communications, $400,000 budgeted and $500,000 obviously was spent to

$325,000. Keeping in mind with the closure of a number of offices in some remote

areas, would it not be considered that there may be additional costs around

transportation and communications, particularly around new types of programs or

assessing the needs in those respective communities based on the principle this

is the first major cut across the board to AES offices to get an understanding

if it's doing more damage than what it was intended to do?

MR. BYRNE:

Mr. Brazil, on the travel of

Income Support officials, that would have been covered and I'll just make sure

that Madam Wheaton doesn't contradict me on this, but it would be under Client

Services, 2.1.01.

terms of Transportation and Communications in this particular line, that's

mostly dealing with funding to cover mailing costs for Income Assistance

cheques. There was some overage due to some additional postage in last year's

program. The decrease in the current year is due to switching to mailing of one

stub per month for each direct deposit instead of two.

MR. BRAZIL:

You don't anticipate with

some of the major changes within this budget line that there wouldn't be more

information having to be distributed particularly to Income Support clients

realizing their situations, clarifying certain buy-ins or understandings of cuts

in programs or access to programs.

MR. BYRNE:

Nothing that could not be

incorporated within the regular consistent mailings.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay, fair enough.

Under

the Allowances and Assistance, keeping in mind it's fairly in line, not a major

increase across the board, do you anticipate there would be an increase, keeping

in mind our economists are telling us most of the social agencies who are

responsible for low-income individuals or Income Support, and particularly those

related to single parents, are anticipating a bigger uptake on Income Support

this year? Are you expecting an exodus out of the system for some reason?

MR. BYRNE:

No, but we are finding we're

actually we still remain very focused on employability, on making sure those

on income assistance nobody wants to be on income assistance by really

doubling down on getting people back to work, which is really what the client

wants. I'll give credit where credit is due, there was a lot of work done on

this in the past and it was very effective, and I think it still could be

effective. There still can be improvements.

terms of a potential up and increase in Income Support clients due to changing

labour market conditions and overall unemployment rates and other factors, we'll

continue to monitor that and make sure if there's any change or a spike or

uptakes increase, we'll respond when the information becomes available to us. If

it, indeed, becomes available to us, if that does indeed occur.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay, thank you for that.

The

eight closures, is that the end of the AES office closures, or is there a bigger

plan reassessing other locations? What's the plan for at least next year?

MR. BYRNE:

No, there's no plan to

further review. A very significant analysis was done of the current

requirements, the current resources, the current caseloads. Again, I'll just go

back to the fact that the clients themselves are changing the way they look to

and receive benefits, or supports.

As I

stated earlier, this is an evolving circumstance. I'm sure you will appreciate

more so probably than most, that you found this case yourself, your previous

government. You obviously will know that in 2004 the previous administration had

closed 20 AES offices in Stephenville Crossing, Piccadilly, Bonne Bay, Deer

Lake, Englee, Forteau, Cartwright, Davis Inlet, Botwood, Fogo, Gambo,

Wesleyville, Grand Bank, Burgeo, Harbour Breton, St. Mary's, Ferryland,

Whitbourne, Conception Bay South and Bay Roberts. In addition to those office

closures, what you did find was that there was a requirement for a reduction in

staff to be able to meet the new and evolving standard.

Bell

Island, for example; in 2004, Bell Island had six staff and your administration

decided to take it from six staff to two; Baie Verte had five staff and it went

to two; Bonavista had nine staff and it faced reductions; Twillingate had five

staff and went to three.

Really,

when I read the press release to you earlier, it was actually the 2004 press

release that announced those closures. Where it said, the most efficient and

effective use of our resources is the consolidation of offices throughout the

province. Improvements in transportation, communication and other technologies

have enabled a more efficient income and employment support service delivery

network. Service delivery sites will be now be located in key centres to

optimize opportunities for partnering with employers, community agencies and

other levels of government. Outreach and other strategies will ensure there is

efficient and effective service to clients in remote communities.

That

was the press release that was issued during Budget 2004-05 when your government

announced the closure of 20, what are now, Advanced Education and Skills

offices. That was over 10 years ago. Those service standards are still evolving,

and that's why the Internet portal is probably more relevant. Telephone

communication is now even more relevant. So,

When

your government decided to close those 20 offices, it knew that client-service

standards were evolving and that's why you took that move, I would think. For

us, there was a question of money. Times were a little bit different back in

March of 2004. They're very different today, but cost savings are cost savings

where available. The service standard had changed, had evolved and even greater

expectations, use of electronic media to be able to do so. With more and more

services going into more centralized regions, that became important. It's a

decision that I'm sure was very difficult for your administration to take back

then, the same as it is ours. It's not an easy one.

I'll

also note, in 2013 there was a decision that was taken where 72 offices for

employment assistance and self-employment assistance were closed. Your

administration, the previous administration had closed 72 offices throughout all

of Newfoundland and Labrador, just about every location in the province, and

over 226 staff members were affected at those 72 offices. That, I'm sure, was a

difficult decision as well, but when you announced that, you announced it

because of evolving service standards as well.

So if

you see the time continuum of how things are, more and more people are relying

on access to more centralized services, and more and more people are relying on

electronic media, on telephone but still, I want to really, really emphasize

the point that if there is a client who needs face-to-face service delivery,

that will always be arranged.

MR. BRAZIL:

No, fair enough. I do agree

there are new ways of doing business, and over the last decade there have been

improvements to do that. As a result, there are necessary changes to structures

of office and number of staff you need.

I do

want to make it clear and on the record, that it wasn't my administration. I was

on that side. I was an employee of AES and was vigilantly against the impact it

would have. It was at a time when the economy was growing. What's happening here

now, we're closing offices in remote areas without any additional supports, be

it around technology, be it around transportation links, at a time when we're

also hitting these same clientele with a number of other impacts and less access

to certain services and that.

I'm

glad you did say that if there's a client who needs a face-to-face assessment of

their needs, that there will be a way found to do that.

MR. BYRNE:

Absolutely.

MR. BRAZIL:

I appreciate that, but I do

also have a question around the amount of money being saved. I take Bell Island,

for example, it's in a government building. So the costing for overhead is

minimal. The two staff, one I understand was just moving in because that

individual was also doing work as part of a call centre for the St. John's

office.

So if I

could, down the road, in the next number of days, get a copy of the outline of

the potential savings in those eight offices, which ones were leased facilities

that you're now giving up a leased agreement which was the bigger savings,

obviously which are staff that are being laid off or just transferred to other

offices. If I could have that, I'd appreciate that piece of information also.

MR. BYRNE:

Sure.

answer to the question, another element that has to be added to this is AES has

indeed had a significant staff complement reduction. In 2013, there was a

decision taken to implement a brand new organizational structure within the

department. Originally, the number of positions within the department was 993.

At the conclusion of the organizational restructuring the position count went to

720. That was a significant reduction as a result of that 2013 reorganizational

effort.

What

has to be noted, though, is that in addition so you're talking about the cost

savings, I just want to zero in on another element of this. The organizational

structure in 2013 went from 993 down to specific positions of 720. Not all

positions were necessarily funded. There was a decision that was taken before

the reorganizational structure came in to reduce the salary envelope of the

department by $6 million. That was without consideration of what the actual

organizational structure may ultimately look like.

So the

salary reduction was taken in 2013, reduced the salary envelope of AES by $6

million. Then a decision was taken to change the organization structure. A

reorganizational structure was put in place. Part of the problem was that an

organizational structure was approved for which there were positions that were

not fully funded.

And so

when we look at some of the salary positions, some of the changes that have been

required of AES, like even in terms of office closures, some of that has been

out of necessity to try and meet the expectations that there are still a

significant number of positions within AES that are still not funded. That's a

bit of a concern to us.

I'll

ask, Madam Dunphy, is there anything else that you'd like to add to that

particular narrative or is that pretty well

MS. DUNPHY:

No, Minister, I think you've pretty much covered it.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay.

I'm

just going to make one last comment to know their answers then. I do agree, over

the years there's been cuts to AES for streamlining how work has been done, but

a lot of it was based on the clientele; demand was going down. I don't

anticipate that and neither do a number of people here. There's an anticipation

that the demand will go up and the need for offices and particular services and

program investments are going to be more than they have been in the last decade

or so.

I'll pass it on to Ms. Michael now, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Thank

you.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you, Chair.

I do not have any more questions under 1.01.

3.1.02, the National Child Benefit Reinvestment; it dropped

last year from a budget of $600,000 to a revision of $430,000

this year up to $450,000, so

just a little explanation of the variations please.

MR. BYRNE:

There has been

less-than-anticipated uptake, and this has been the case for quite some time now

in this particular program. This particular program is targeted to Income

Support clients for the receipt of benefits related to private child care where

no public child care is readily available. It's well advertised, the program is

well-known within the client body, but it's just uptake to the program has been

declining for a period of many, many years.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay. Will those numbers be

in your briefing notes?

MR. BYRNE:

I believe they are. I have

some right here that date from 2005. For example, in 2005 there were 762 cases

of clients that were seeking supports under this particular program and

expenditures of $514,000. By 2010 there were 589 clients, and then by 2015 there

were 345 clients with $407,000 in expenditures. So we can map that out for you,

certainly.

MS. MICHAEL:

My next question probably

would cover both here and the next subhead. With those drops I'm wondering do we

have the actual numbers of births. I mean how many children are a part of

families that receive income support? Are those numbers going down?

MR. BYRNE:

That's a very good question.

I'll ask Madam Wheaton if she might be able to drill down on that.

MS. WHEATON:

More so than any other

jurisdiction in the country the number of families with children in receipt of

income support, both two parent and single parent, has been decreasing

substantially. I think people are always surprised to hear that the actual birth

rate of income support families is actually lower than the birth rate of the

province.

I'm

just looking to see what I have in terms of single parents these days, but I can

certainly get you some of the latest information. It's quite dramatic actually.

It's a two-part story, as the minister indicated. The take-up is not there

because we actually have child care space, but there's just less children

growing up on income support.

MS. MICHAEL:

That's what I was realizing

from the numbers the minister gave. That's a surprise but then, at the same

time, I think the income support of single males, has that gone up for us? There

is one area that has gone up for us in this province. Is it single males?

MS. WHEATON:

Yes.

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes. That's what I thought.

Thank

you.

Under

3.1.03, which is the Mother/Baby Nutrition Supplement, under Allowances and

Assistance and I'm assuming, that's why I said I think my question covers both

of these under Allowances and Assistance again that has dropped significantly.

I guess the answer that I've just received is part of the answer here; we're

seeing fewer new births as well?

MR. BYRNE:

Yeah, I'll just get Madam

Wheaton to confirm.

MS. WHEATON:

Yes, less children being

born.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay. I think they're all

the questions I have, Chair, in that section.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Ms. Michael.

Before

the Chair calls a five-minute recess, I'm going to ask for the Clerk to please

recall the first subhead.

MR. BRAZIL:

Yeah, I'm good on that

section, that's 3.1.3.

CHAIR:

Would the Clerk please

recall the first subhead?

CLERK:

1.1.01.

CHAIR:

1.1.01.

Shall

that carry?

All

those in favour?

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

Against?

Carried.

motion, subhead 1.1.01 carried.

CHAIR:

you.

Recess

CHAIR (Dempster):

Good morning, everyone.

little bit of a change here. The previous Chair had to go out for a meeting.

He's going to owe me a favour after this.

We'll

just carry right along. I understand we're moving to 4.1.01. So I'll ask to call

the subheading and then we'll move to Mr. Brazil.

CLERK:

4.1.01 to 4.1.10 inclusive.

CHAIR:

Shall 4.1.01 to 4.1.10

carry?

Mr.

Brazil.

MR. BRAZIL:

I'm just going to go right

to 4.1.04, under Grants and Subsidies. There was $20,600,000 originally

budgeted, $15.5 million was used, now we're at $19.8 million. Can you just give

me an outline on the variance there? Was it there just wasn't an uptake, was it

a change in our approach at the time? I'm just curious to see where we are now.

Will that cover exactly what we think under the Labour Market Development

Agreement?

CHAIR:

Okay, Mr. Brazil, while I

just get my sea legs here I'll just defer directly to Mr. Hogan, my assistant

deputy minister, to give a quick

Okay. Thank you.

Under

4.1.05, Grants and Subsidies there, $2 million with the Canada-Newfoundland and

Labrador Job Fund Agreement to $4.6 million. Can you just outline what that will

cover? And the doubling, did we take over another part of the agreement? Are we

administering something different? Is it a new start of a new go-forward

multi-year agreement?

MR. BYRNE:

Okay, I've got my sea legs

here now so I'll dig in. Then, if you have any additional questions Mr. Hogan is

an expert in all of these fields, so please free to just voluntarily, at your

own discretion, direct to him.

In this

particular line item funding sees an increase of $2.62 million which is related

to the Apprenticeship Wage Subsidy. That has been simply reallocated from

Apprenticeship and Trades Certification, which is another line item in the

budget. That was just simply a recommendation from the Office of the Comptroller

General. It was in the wrong location and put in the right location.

MR. BRAZIL:

Yes, I thought that, but I

wanted clarification to make sure. Okay. Perfect.

question under 4.1.06, similar there; the Grants and Subsidies from $240,000

last year, down from $1.3 million to $2.038 million. The increase there, are we

adding something new to it or are we collaborating or combining a couple of

different line items? The Labour Market Adjustment Programs.

MR. BYRNE:

Dennis, would you there's

an offset by a one-time carry-over into 2016-17 of $1,016,400. That did not get

federal funding approval in time for 2015-16. I believe this was the target

initiative for older workers. You will recall that sometimes the feds are little

bit slow in the fiscal year, so that's the bulk of that funding.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay. I'm perfect there.

Under

4.1.07, Employment Assistance Programs for Persons with Disabilities; Grants and

Subsidies from $2.5 million, revised to $1.7 million and now we're down to

$1.296 million.

Is that

relevant to the uptake? Is it a budget line decrease? Were there parts of the

program that had now been completed?

MR. BYRNE:

A number of different

initiatives here that we can speak of. There was a comprehensive line-by-line

review of budgets with drop balances of about $283,000. There was a forecast

adjustment of $115,000 related to an increase in wages for support workers for

the minimum wage. There's a transfer to Allowances and Assistance of $690,000

and community group reductions of $357,600 which was to maximize federal

funding. So there was some switch of provincial funding into federal funding.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay. Fair enough.

Under

4.1.08, Youth and Student Services, again

MR. BYRNE:

Sorry, what number?

MR. BRAZIL:

Oh, sorry, 4.1.08, Youth and

Student Services, under the heading 10, Grants and Subsidies.

MR. BYRNE:

Yes.

MR. BRAZIL:

The same question there, the

variance there. It's down substantially, a million dollars from what was used

last year and $1.4 million from what was budgeted.

MR. BYRNE:

In this particular line item

most of I think you may or may not agree. There's a fairly unused component of

this budget, historically, because first off, the federal student wage subsidies

sometimes take a little more uptake.

In this

particular line item, there was a reduction of $1.2 million, approximately,

related to historical drop balances and reducing the number of weeks for the

Graduate Employment Program. So roughly $1.2 million was unused balances.

There

was a decrease as a result of a government-wide line-by-line review of about

$250,000. There was a decrease of $46,400 related to annualization of the

2015-16 JobsNL Wage Subsidy Program.

Dennis,

I want to make sure we're not missing anything here. Is there anything else that

should be added to this, my comments?

MR. HOGAN:

No, Minister, I think you've

covered it comprehensively.

Those

reductions are, as you outlined, due to the various line-by-line review and drop

balances, in addition to some reductions related to program areas and employers

not being able to fill positions during the period of approval for the summer

placements.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay, I appreciate that.

Under

4.1.09, Skills and Labour Market Research. Professional Services, what is it

that we no longer need, or did we spend to oversee a particular program for

$550,000 down to $150,000? Did we complete something?

MR. BYRNE:

Under the line of

Professional Services, this is funding provided for consulting fees such as

economist work on labour market information improvements, labour market

information improvements and intergovernmental conference secretariat, such as

the forum of labour market ministers and Atlantic Workforce Partnerships. A lot

of it is related to those kinds of services. What we found was that in some

areas that refinements in reductions and efficiencies could be found within

those consulting fees.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay.

I would

assume some of the research is done at it's useable for the upcoming years as

part of the research under Professional Services.

MR. BYRNE:

That's a fair conclusion.

MR. BRAZIL:

Mr.

Hogan, would you elaborate?

MR. HOGAN:

At this point in time we have approximately 265, I believe, would be a close

approximation to the number of Syrian refugees that have landed in Newfoundland

and Labrador since last November.

MR. BRAZIL:

What was our target? Did we

set a target of 500, 300, 1,000?

MR. BYRNE:

I believe for all

government-assisted refugees, the original target was 150, but of course there

was an agreement that was made, I think last September, to increase that amount.

Dennis,

would you like to just go into the details now about our multi-year forecast?

MR. HOGAN:

Yes, and there is an allocation that happens annually from the federal

government to each province and territory.

The

minister is correct in indicating that prior to last September our annual

allocation for government-assisted refugees not to be confused with

privately-sponsored refugees was 150 individuals. That number was increased to

250 last September, as the minister indicated, and that's the number it is

staying at for this current year. Now, those numbers will fluctuate on the

margins, either a little bit more or a little bit less, but it's meant to be a

target. That's a decision of the federal government in terms of how many

government-assisted refugees from all countries will be allocated to this

province and the other provinces and territories.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay, I appreciate that.

Do we

have the data on how many have stayed since they came here? Have we had an

outmigration of some who've connected with other family members in other parts

of the country?

MR. HOGAN:

We don't have the actual numbers, how many may have left at this point in time,

but that is something we're working with the Association for New Canadians. They

generally get informed when there is a family that has left for another

jurisdiction. At this point I'm just anecdotally aware of one or two that have

done so, but we don't have actual numbers at this point in time.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay.

Do we

have a dollar figure on what the federal government have put towards the

province for support in, particularly, the Syrian refugee program?

MR. HOGAN:

They have committed additional funds to the Association for New Canadians, and

the ANC is the settlement agreement holder on behalf of the province with the

federal government. They did have an initial allocation of, I believe, $75,000.

The provincial government has also committed an additional $40,000 to the ANC

I believe it was $40,000 last fall. There are other monies that are

transferring from the federal government, but they go directly to the ANC. We

don't receive any as a provincial government.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay, but for support

programs: health, education, Income Support, these types of things, do they come

out of our general pot or ?

MR. HOGAN:

For the first year upon arrival, the refugees are funded by the federal

government through groups like the ANC under the Resettlement Assistance

Program. For instance, Income Support would be provided to those families,

funded by the federal government and it would be equivalent to provincial rates.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay, I appreciate it.

Ms.

Michael.

I'm

good, Madam Chair.

CHAIR:

Given the clock, we'll move

to Ms. Michael now.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay. Thank you.

I just

have to go back over some of this because there's been a lot covered. I want to

see where I had questions which may not have been answered.

I had a

question for 4.1.01, but I think that was answered by Ms. Dunphy. It had to do

with the $910,000 Grants and Subsides that hadn't been in that line before, but

that got answered. That had been moved. So that's fine. I don't need to ask any

more about that.

Let's

see; 4.1.02, I think the amounts there are self-explanatory.

Just a

general question, the JobsNL website was dropped and the explanation well,

sort of an explanation that was given in this line-by-line explanation of the

different initiatives, I don't have it right in front of me but my memory is

that basically it was a duplication. There were other sites that did the same

thing.

Was

there any analysis done of whether or not JobsNL did pick up people who even

if they did go to other sites, was there information here they may not have

gotten in any of the other sites? I guess I would like to have some detail on

that statement, that it was a duplication.

MR. BYRNE:

Sure. Thank you for the

question.

JobsNL,

there were two job employer and job seekers interfaces used, the federal job

bank and JobsNL. In its original incarnation the JobsNL did offer a richer,

deeper pool of information that was available and arguably was a much more

refined website for the Newfoundland and Labrador experience.

What

became evidently true was that over the course of time, due to improvements to

the federal job bank site, much of what was required and offered on the JOBSinNL

site was actually brought into the federal job bank site. In fact, Madam

Michael, what happened was eventually it got to the point, in order to actually

register on the JOBSinNL site, an employer would actually first have to register

and put in all the data on the federal job bank site.

So in

July of 2015, there were substantial improvements that were made to the federal

job bank site. In the assessment that was conducted there was very, very little

that was not offered. I think the argument was effectively made there was

nothing that was offered that was not directly available on the federal job bank

site.

Given

the fact that we had a $108,000 a year hosting contract with a New Brunswick

firm, we just decided it was since the two were almost, for all practical

purposes, directly married and linked, the move to just simply one site actually

created greater ease of use, did not leave anybody out and at the same time save

$108,000 per year.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you very much for that

detail.

4.1.03

under Grants and Subsidies, I don't think you asked about this David did you,

4.1.03?

MR. BRAZIL:

No.

MS. MICHAEL:

No, I didn't think so.

Could I

have an explanation? I really want to save time. I don't want any duplication.

Under

Grants and Subsidies, it was $8.4 million budgeted last year, slightly under in

terms of the revision and now this year it's down a fair bit, almost $897,000

from what was budgeted last year. Can we have an explanation of what the Grants

and Subsidies are under this

section and why the drop?

MR. BYRNE:

In this particular line

item, and the program for the Grants and Subsidies under Employment Development

Programs, there were some dropped balances, but more in particular, there was an

opportunity to lever more federal funding through the LMDA. For example, there

was more federal funding that was applied to the Stella Burry of $380,000 which

we were able to extract from the LMDA, I believe.

There

were other resulting reductions which totalled almost $700,000 in being able to

reprofile some of those things. There was some annualization of the 2015 JobsNL

Wage Subsidy Program which resulted in savings of $52,000. There were some

reductions in the Linkages program based on past uptakes which resulted in some

savings as well.

So it

was a combination of just things that were not necessarily fully subscribed and,

as well, things we were able to get out of federal funding.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

Again,

I assume there are some more details that are in your notes I will be able to

look at?

MR. BYRNE:

Yes.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you very much.

Just

one program I'd like to ask some questions about. The Employment Transitions

which was originally for single parents. I think it used to be in four

locations. Last year, it was noted that the clientele were including older

single women. Could we have an update on that program?

MR. BYRNE:

Mr. Hogan, are you in a

position to be able to okay.

MR. HOGAN:

Yes, we actually offered Employment Transitions in three different locations.

There had been an attempt to organize the program for offering in Labrador but,

unfortunately, the uptake was not there. What we've found over the last two to

three years is that where the program is being offered, a lot of the potential

clients in those regions have already undertaken the Employment Transitions

Program, which essentially is a nine-week program to provide assistance to

individuals transitioning into the workforce.

The

primary focus initially would have been single parents but now because of the

decreasing uptake in single parents, we've expanded the reach to reach those who

may not be single parents or may be older and still wanting to transition into

the workforce.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right, okay. Thank you very

much.

4.1.04,

that's where you started, David, I think, and asked some questions there. He's

not paying attention to me. That's okay. I won't repeat his questions. We got

the questions under Grants and Subsidies, I think, from that one.

MR. BRAZIL:

I did all those.

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes, and 4.1.05 the same

way.

Under

4.1.05, and I suspect this is in your briefing book, I just want to confirm,

would your briefing book have a list of the employers and numbers of

participants for the various programs? That's under 4.1.05.

MR. BYRNE:

I'll just ask. In the book

it does not list the employers? We can certainly provide it though.

OFFICIAL:

Yes.

MR. BYRNE:

Absolutely.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay. Thank you very much.

If we

get that, along with the other stuff, that will be great.

I think

we asked about that one. David asked about that. 4.1.07, I think he asked about

that one as well. Sorry, to have to do it like this but it's saving time in the

long run. The Youth, we have that. 4.1.09, I think my questions there are

answered as well.

Could

we have an update on the Population Growth Strategy?

MR. BYRNE:

Absolutely.

The

Population Growth Strategy, obviously, is evolving. As a new administration,

we're looking at our own commitments, but, as well, the evolving circumstances

that we're under.

Obviously, our immigration promotion will continue to be a centrepiece of this

particular strategy. We have a relatively small immigration shop within the

Government of Newfoundland and Labrador. I think it's punching above its weight

in terms of attracting newcomers to our province. Of course, we'll probably,

undoubtedly, under the circumstances that we face nationally, see a larger

number of expats coming back to Newfoundland and Labrador.

Where

we're really centring our efforts and looking at analyzing now and developing a

new Population Growth Strategy is taking the best of what was already in place,

but also expanding on it, looking at new circumstances and evolving

circumstances. Despite the fact that there would obviously be a number of

positions, there would be an increased competition or demand for various jobs in

Newfoundland and Labrador. There will still be many, many positions, many, many

jobs, many skillsets that will still not be able to be retained or made

available in Newfoundland and Labrador.

We're

going to double down and make sure that in terms of our attraction, our efforts

to seek newcomers to the province, that they meet with the skillsets that are

identified as being absent from our province so that we can grow the economy

that way.

We're

very proud of the fact of our humanitarian Newfoundland and Labrador has

really opened up its arms in terms of our Syrian refugees. I also note, and I

think, Madam Michael, you'll be the first to attest, is that Newfoundland and

Labrador has been very open minded and very open hearted to those facing

troubles abroad. While much focus and attention is placed on the Syrian refugee

crisis, there are still many other nationalities, many other groups around the

world, that face very, very difficult, hostile circumstances.

While a

lot of attention is placed from the welcoming arms that we've placed with Syrian

refugees a lot of attention is placed there there are many, many groups from

other parts of the world that deserve, expect and hope for our attention. So

that's a component of this.

As we

look at how we expand our immigration efforts from an economic point of view,

one of the things that I'd look at and I'm just examining this at this point

in time is maybe a potential re-entry of the immigrant investor program. That

was something that offered many, many years ago, which was discontinued. There

may be an opportunity now at this point in our time for people to reconsider

that and to work with the federal government.

I'm now

working with the federal government on Canada-Newfoundland immigration program,

an actual immigration agreement, which sort of solidifies a lot of our joint

actions on immigration, which I think is extremely helpful.

Population growth is really about attracting those from afar. Those that were

here may have left temporarily and then may be seeking a way back home. So we're

really bearing down on that, based on the new circumstances we find ourselves

in.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you.

CHAIR:

Ms. Michael, seeing the

time, is it okay now if I move back to Mr. Brazil?

MS. MICHAEL:

Well, the thing is, if I

only had one more in this whole section, we could get it over with.

CHAIR:

Yes, that's fine.

MS MICHAEL:

Okay. I really don't think I do have anything that I need to ask; David covered

all of that. That's it for that section.

Thank

you.

CHAIR:

Thank you very much.

Mr.

Brazil.

MR. BRAZIL:

I'm good on that section.

I'm ready to move to 5.1.01.

CHAIR:

Okay. So we'll call that

section then.

Shall

4.1.01 to 4.1.10 carry?

All

those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

Carried.

motion, subheads 4.1.01 through 4.1.10 carried.

CHAIR:

I'll ask the Clerk to call

the subhead.

CLERK:

5.1.01 to 5.1.03 inclusive.

CHAIR:

Shall 5.1.01 to 5.1.03

inclusive carry?

Mr.

Brazil.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay, I've got some general

concept questions here. The minister has mentioned in the House and in some

discussions I've had with him that you're presently in the midst of doing a

review on CNA

MR. BYRNE:

Right.

MR. BRAZIL:

all of its campuses across

the board. If there any cuts that are going to take place in those campuses,

will they be reflective in these Estimates, or are they reflective in the

Estimates at this point?

MR. BYRNE:

No decisions have been made

whatsoever. It's a very open-minded review. I know there's been much focus on

what may happen in terms of cuts and closures, but I have to say to you, very

upfront and very sincerely, that this is just as much or more about making sure

that are campuses are operating with full efficiency and with full volume.

A lot

of changes have occurred at CNA over the last number of years. The reduction in

the budget of CNA back in 2013, of course, was a difficult one, and was

difficult to adjust to. But I think adjustments are being made, and I'm still of

the belief that I'm very open minded to make sure the programs and services

that are offered at each and every one of the campuses we've got to make sure

that no stone is left unturned.

MR. BRAZIL:

I agree 100 per cent.

Can you

give us just a little concept of the process you're using and the time frames?

MR. BYRNE:

The process is not like a

White Paper; it won't be a panel of experts. It's more of my own working with

the CNA, working with my own department, trying to find out what programs were

offered historically, what programs might be able to be offered in the future,

whether or not it's realistic, whether there's a high probability that we may be

able to get students.

One of

the elements of this discussion that we have to include is that more and more

students do want to go to St. John's. How do make campuses as attractive as we

possibly can in their own backyards?

those are some of the fundamental realities. I believe we can do that. But I

won't second-guess how they want to engage in their educations as well.

MR. BRAZIL:

Oh no, I appreciate that,

and I actually applaud that approach. There has been a fair bit of research done

through the White Papers and internally in reviewing that, so there's enough

there to be able to say the next steps would be the assessment. I like the

approach of how do we make it attractive enough for people to be able to stay

with the proper programs and supports to do that.

Can we

get a breakdown of the number of employees and students who are currently

enrolled? It doesn't have to be now, but if you could share that with down the

It's a little bit of a

different because, of course, with the CNA, and you probably are very familiar

with this, some structures are half times. There are various ways that they so

I'll just give a little bit of caveat that we'll do our very, very best, sincere

best, to try and record those numbers as best as we possibly can and communicate

them.

MR. BRAZIL:

Yes, we do appreciate that.

Like I said, we do realize there are certain improved approaches that could be

used to better how we move our post-secondary, particularly around the college

process.

I'm

just curious, the present president, is her contract up in the near future?

MR. BYRNE:

I believe the appointment

was until the end of July 2016. So, of course, we do have the Independent

Appointments process and the president of the College of the North Atlantic is

one of the agencies, boards and commissions bodies that would be covered by the

process of the Independent Appointments Commission as well.

MR. BRAZIL:

So that position will go

through that full process once it's all passed and put in play?

MR. BYRNE:

It will.

MR. BRAZIL:

Fair enough.

MR. BYRNE:

Now, of course, that puts us

in a bit of a tight time frame but we'll try to make allowances around that.

MR. BRAZIL:

Yes, to be able to make it

happen in that period of time from being adopted in the House; fair enough.

I just

want to go back to 5.1.01, under the Grants and Subsidies, Apprenticeship and

Trades Certification. There are major differences there from $9 million to $8.5

million to $2.14 million. Is there monies put somewhere else? Is it the end of a

program? Is it an uptake that's going be one-third or one-fifth of what it

normally would be, just some clarification, please?

MR. BYRNE:

Okay. This is one is

directly related to a specific recommendation of the Office of the Co mp troller

General to budget funding in the directorship which is responsible for the

expenditures. I am just trying to track my notes real quickly, but if memory

serves me correct, it was a significant amount of money.

Debbie,

do you have those details?

MS. DUNPHY:

Sure, I do.

moved $4 million over to the LMDA activity, 4.1.04. As well under the Canada job

fund, 4.1.05, we moved another $2.6 million. So that accounts for the

difference, basically, of the decrease. So no, programs are not reduced.

MR. BRAZIL:

all I have under 5.1, Madam Chair.

CHAIR:

Okay.

As a

procedural, I'm going to ask the Clerk to call the subhead again. I was being a

little ambitious, but in the interest of time and it looks like we'll have to

cut this and maybe reconvene at another date at 12 o'clock. I think we should

just go subsection by subsection and stick with that.

Is it

okay if I ask Ms. Michael if she has questions on 5.1.01 to 5.1.03 and then

we'll call that?

MR. BRAZIL:

Yes.

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes, under Apprenticeship

and Trades, one of the initiatives announced in the budget is a decision to stop

I'm presuming it's just provincial funding to the Office to Advance Women

Apprentices. What it says here is that in the budget for 2015-16, $200,000 was

earmarked for the Office to Advance Women Apprentices, and in 2016-17, that

money will no longer be put towards the office.

I guess

my question is: Is the Office to Advance Women Apprentices being maintained

because it is not clear from any of this.

MR. BYRNE:

Yes, I appreciate the

question and understand why you might draw that conclusion, but it's a move to

federal funding so there's no reduction.

MS. MICHAEL:

There's no reduction?

MR. BYRNE:

No.

MS. MICHAEL:

So the province won't be

putting any money in but the federal funding will be maintained?

Basically, the Office to

Advance Women Apprentices was given $200,000 in provincial funding to maintain

the office. The only difference this current fiscal year is that it won't be

provincial money, it will be federal money, but it's still $200,000. There will

be no change in the delivery.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay. So it's coming from

one of the federal pockets?

MR. GARDINER:

Correct.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay. Thank you very much.

Just

needing to get clarification.

I don't

know who does this or who maintains this kind of information is it AES like

the number of apprentices registered, how many people are doing journeyperson

training, the gender breakdown of our apprentices, et cetera?

MR. BYRNE:

We do indeed.

I'll

ask Mr. Gardiner to if you have those details readily?

MS. MICHAEL:

If it's in a briefing note

we can just say, fine, we'll take the information rather than going through the

time, in the interest of time.

MR. BYRNE:

It is. I know that it's

sitting right here in my binder. It's a bit of a long table so we can forward

that for sure.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay, that's what we're

looking for.

Okay,

thank you very much. That'll be sufficient.

Then it

was 02 and 03, wasn't it, Chair? I think I'm okay.

5.1.03

yes, that's fine. You can call.

CHAIR:

Okay. So we'll call that

subhead.

CLERK:

5.1.01 to 5.1.03 inclusive.

CHAIR:

Shall 5.1.01 to 5.1.03

inclusive carry?

All

those in favour?

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against?

Carried.

motion, subheads 5.1.01 through 5.1.03 carried.

CHAIR:

So now we'll move back to

Mr. Brazil.

I'll

ask the Clerk to call the next subheads.

MR. BRAZIL:

Yes, I'll try to do a couple

of quick questions here.

CLERK:

5.2.01 to 5.2.02 inclusive.

CHAIR:

Shall 5.2.01 to 5.2.02

inclusive carry?

Mr.

Brazil.

MR. BRAZIL:

I've just got a quick

question here under Grants and Subsidies, Memorial University, 5.2.01,

Operations.

The $5

million and we're hearing in the public that the university has all kinds of

upheaval about how they're going to pick that up. The students' unions are

terrified that it's going to be on the backs of them when it comes to tuition

increases.

I just

ask the minister: Was there a conversation with the university around where

efficiencies could be found within their organization to absorb the $5 million

difference?

MR. BYRNE:

Naturally, there were

conversations. There are always conversations, which is not inconsistent with

the way it's been for many, many years. I'm not going to divulge the specifics

of the university's position in terms of what they brought forward.

Memorial University is autonomous. There was no direction that was brought to

the university as to what they had to consider or not consider. We looked at the

overall funding envelope of Memorial University of Newfoundland. We certainly

had many, many conversations with the senior executive. They'll make a decision

as to their own financial administration in the coming days. I believe May 19th

is the Board of Regents meeting.

But,

yes, there were extensive conversations that were had, but it was respecting

MUN's autonomy in the process.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay. Fair enough.

I have

a couple of general questions, too, around some of these things here. I never

got a point to note it there, but if you could indulge me, the Linkages program

the cuts to the Linkages program. I just noted that I had because it wasn't

a direct line. There are major decreases there.

Was

that based on uptake research data or it is just a budget line reduction?

MR. BYRNE:

We're back to

MR. BRAZIL:

Yes, it was one of the other

ones. I apologize; I missed it because it's not a line item. Linkages fits in

under Grants and Subsidies.

MR. BYRNE:

Oh yes. Okay, sure.

On the

Linkages side, I'll ask Mr. Hogan to elaborate on some details because I have to

go back a little bit.

Mr.

Hogan.

MR. HOGAN:

Yes, there was a reduction to the Linkages budget, a combination of drop

balances due to the line-by-line review. And there is a reduction in the overall

funding envelope. So there may be fewer individuals who will get served by the

program. I believe it will be approximately 19, would be the number downward

from last year.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay. Fair enough.

Just

quickly under 5.2.02 under Physical Plant and Equipment, $6.599 million to $3.8

million to $3.2 million; not a major difference in that. Was there something

different that was budgeted that didn't get used that now is no longer needed?

MR. BYRNE:

There was a $1.9 million

reference to Capital that got moved to operating. It was just placed in the

wrong spot.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay. That's good.

I'm

good on 5.2, Madam Chair.

CHAIR:

Okay. I want to move to Ms.

Michael for that subsection.

MS. MICHAEL:

Just a little bit more

specificity, I think.

Under

5.2.01, the Tuition Offset Grant was put up by $4 million. I'd like to know the

rationale for the determination of the $4 million.

MR. BYRNE:

That's the pattern that's

consistent, that has grown over a number of years. Originally, I think the

offset for Memorial was about $1 million.

Originally, MUN had agreed to a tuition freeze with no incremental funding. In

2005 there was a decision that was taken to sort of offset, through inflationary

costs I wouldn't be able to tell you exactly what the original thesis was

behind it, but I assume it had to do with the fact that inflationary costs kept

rising. As it does for you and I, it also does for the university as well. So

there was an offset that was put in place. That offset itself grew over the

course of time.

When we

talk about the $4 million tuition freeze that's in this year's budget, that's

new additional funding; in actual fact, as part of the program of retaining the

tuition freeze, it is $52.4 million that is awarded to Memorial University of

Newfoundland as a tuition freeze offset, on an annual basis.

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes, I realize that but the

$4 million offset is slightly more than the drop in the operating grant. Knowing

that costs do go up and knowing that there's inflation in all the other

operational costs of the university as well, I sort of just question this: on

the one hand giving, on the other hand taking, it doesn't make sense to me. It

seems like the university is being put in a more difficult situation.

Yes, I

know it's $52.4 million as the offset, but they've also had millions taken away

as well. So I don't see the balance working out for the university, I guess.

MR. BYRNE:

Well, when we actually

calculated when asked Memorial University of Newfoundland to consider some

reductions in their overall budget, we did so knowing that the entire province

there wasn't a department, there wasn't an agency, there wasn't a board or a

commission that hadn't been asked to tighten its belt in some way, shape or form

in these fiscal times we live in.

Here's

an interesting point. What we did is when the budget's determination was made

there was an expectation of a budget reduction of 3 per cent of MUN. To help put

this a little bit in perspective, when you include the medical school along with

Memorial's other normal academic program; Memorial University of Newfoundland is

roughly for practical sake a half billion dollar a year enterprise. It's a

big institution. It's a very important institution, but at the same time, to

absorb a 3 per cent cut, under these particular times, may not seem unreasonable

to many. It certainly did not seem unreasonable to the government, when you

consider that in other institutions there was much more than a 3 per cent budget

cut.

But I

want to point this out, when it came to the tuition offset, to the tuition

freeze money; the 3 per cent did not apply to that. It was solely on the

operating. The 3 per cent was not applied to the $48.4 million. That was held

intact. So the tuition offset grew without any reduction whatsoever.

other words, yes, there were expectations of some reductions to create some

overall efficiencies. I feel pretty comfortable in saying, or pretty confident

in saying, there are still efficiencies that could be made at MUN. I think we'll

hear more about that when the Board of Regents reports fairly soon.

This

was done with full intention that a tuition freeze could still be maintained and

we did not apply any of the percentage of reduction to the tuition freeze

envelope. That was parceled out of the calculation. The reductions were simply

on the overall operating, not on the tuition offset grant.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you.

With

regard to 5.2.02, the Physical Plant and Equipment, there's been a drop in the

Grants and Subsidies there; yet, we have some ongoing projects, for example, the

Science Building.

How is

the Science B uilding being affected by this drop in the

Capital?

MR. BYRNE:

That is a capital project

which is fully funded. They university itself took out its own lending

instruments. There was some of the Hebron offset. So that project is still on

track and authorization to go to tender was, I think, issued some time ago.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

Thank

you very much.

MR. BYRNE:

Mr. Gardiner, is there

anything else I should add to that or is that pretty well comprehensive?

MR. GARDINER:

The only thing I'd add is right now, of course, they have two tenders on the

street for CP2 and CP3. Their interim financing is being done through the

Immigrant Investor Fund which means Memorial University has those funds at a 2

per cent rate. They'll start paying that back over a period of years. The

mortgage won't come into effect until 2019-20 when the building is complete.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you.

That's

those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

Carried.

motion, subheads 5.2.01 through 5.2.02 carried.

CHAIR:

I'll ask the Clerk to call

the next subhead.

CLERK:

5.3.01 to 5.3.02.

CHAIR:

Shall 5.3.01 to 5.3.02

carry?

Now,

I'm not sure where I go on the clock? Is that back to Mr. Brazil?

MR. BRAZIL:

I just have one quick

question there.

Under

Grants and Subsidies, under Operations, $75.9 million, $78.4 million, $2.5

million, is that to cover salary increases or was there a new program

implemented? Just looking for some clarification on the $2.5 million increase

from what was used.

MR. BYRNE:

I'm sorry, David, I've lost

my roadmap here.

MR. BRAZIL:

5.3.01, College of the North

Atlantic, Current. It was $79.7 million but the revised was $75.9 million now

it's $78.4 million. The $2.5 million was that due to salary increases, a new

program or something we missed?

MR. BYRNE:

In terms of that overall,

the Regular Operating Grant, there were already pre-established government

Attrition Management Plan targets that resulted in a decrease in the overall

funding envelope of $912,800. There was an increase in some student fees related

to parking and other things at $400,000. There was an offset of the increase of

$1.1 million for the extension of the tuition offset subsidies.

In the

balance of things, in terms of the Regular Operating Grant, that should just

about the reduction of the grant was $1.3 million. The government Attrition

Management Plan, which was articulated back in 2013, takes in $912,800 of that

and then there were some increases in some fees and an increase in the tuition

offset.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay, I'm clear on that.

Madam

Chair, I'm good on that section.

CHAIR:

Ms. Michael.

MS. MICHAEL:

Under 5.3.02, Grants and

Subsidies, last year it was $2,800,000 was the budget, $1,300,000 was spent.

Now, this year it's down again to $1,150,000. What is the impact on the college

because it's more than one campus we know of the money dropping so much?

I think

we'd all agree there are still needs for alterations for the college's

facilities, even if it's nothing else but the parking lot in front of the main

building.

MR. BYRNE:

Now, which main building

would that be?

MS. MICHAEL:

Here on Prince Philip Drive.

I'm tired of the patching.

MR. BYRNE:

Some of the decreases relate

to additional funding for there is some work underway for new infrastructure

opportunities at CNA. We're trying to do some planning. There has not actually

been a whole lot of planning.

The

federal government has the strategic initiative fund which is directly related

to universities, colleagues and post-secondary institutions. We'd like to be

able to get more money from that. Part of that is some lab upgrades. We'd really

be encouraged if we could get some more money for various projects within the

entire CNA network.

You're

right. Despite the fact that the college has not received any significant budget

reduction this year, we do recognize there are still some overall infrastructure

needs due to deterred maintenance that needs to be dealt with. Hopefully, with

some funding partners, we might be able to rectify some of those problems.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you.

That's

all.

CHAIR:

We are moving right along

here now.

I'll

ask the Clerk to call the next subhead.

CLERK:

To vote on this one?

CHAIR:

We can vote on that one,

sorry.

CLERK:

5.3.01 to 5.3.02 inclusive.

CHAIR:

Shall 5.3.01 to 5.3.02

inclusive carry?

All

those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

Carried.

motion, subheads 5.3.01 through 5.3.02 carried.

CHAIR:

I'll ask the Clerk to call

the next subhead.

CLERK:

5.4.01 to 5.4.2 inclusive.

CHAIR:

Shall 5.4.01 to 5.4.02

inclusive carry?

Mr.

Brazil.

MR. BRAZIL:

I just have one question

here under Scholarships, just out of curiosity, the decrease there of $45,000.

Is it just a budget line decrease or is it there wasn't an uptake on the program

itself under Scholarships, Allowances and Assistance?

MR. BYRNE:

No, there was full uptake in

the scholarships, but there was a decision that under the scope of our current

financial circumstances as to whether or not we could continue to provide

scholarships, whether or not it was the government's role.

What we

are finding though, I will say this, there are more and more sponsored

scholarships and bursaries that are coming online, not only at Memorial but

specifically at CNA. So you'll find, if you attend graduations and various

awards ceremonies, more and more of the corporate sector is actually providing

the post-secondary institutions with a greater amount, a greater volume of

unaffiliated, unencumbered sponsorship money which is for the university's

academic criteria, the selection committee to be able to select the right

candidates to be able to receive those scholarships.

Yes,

there has been full admission. There's been a bit of a retreat in terms of

government's role in this particular initiative. Our role is not seen as great

now to award scholarships; more it's in the line of financial assistance to

needy students.

MR. BRAZIL:

I appreciate that, and I do

agree that there's been much more of an uptake by the private sector. I see that

as a good thing. So I appreciate that.

Madam

Chair, that's the only question I have on that section.

MS. MICHAEL:

Just a couple of questions,

Madam Chair, please.

You

have two areas that are being eliminated; one is the elimination of the

apprenticeship scholarships and then the reduction and elimination of the

funding for the post-secondary scholarships, which are pretty historical here in

the province, these scholarships. Could we have an idea of when the total

elimination is planned for? We've had some questions about this; people

concerned about the loss of those scholarships in particular.

MR. BYRNE:

Sure, to open up with the

apprenticeship scholarships, one of the guiding realities or facts when

reviewing this particular initiative, by virtue of the fact that apprenticeships

are in the full-time workforce for a significant period of time that's the

nature of the apprenticeship, that you're in a full-time workforce. Upon

completion of the apprenticeship or in the course of the apprenticeship, it's a

little tougher to argue the financial need is as strong, given the fact that

they're working full-time during the course of their collection of qualifying

hours to be able to meet the apprenticeship requirements. And when they're in

the process of their block studies, they also normally would be sponsored,

because of course they're EI eligible in large measure.

So from

the apprenticeship point of view, the scholarship, while it is valuable to

recognize excellence, it's whether or not at this point in time taxpayers'

dollars can be a part of that process. So there was a decision, given the fact

that those impacted by this actually have regular full-time sources of income

all the way through, that was a major component.

On the

post-secondary side, while a reduction of approximately from $123,000 to $87,000

for those scholarships in this coming yea

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Citation	2016-05-09
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