LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 14 May, 1987. Time - 1:30 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. 'MADAM SPEAKER, Hon. M. Phillips: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . . . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Employment Serv ices and Economic Security. HON. L. EVANS: Madam Speaker, I have a ministerial statement to give.

Madam Speaker, I would like to inform the House that the Single Parent Job Access Program, one of !our new and expanded initiatives funded under the Canada-Manitoba Agreement on Employability Enhancement for Social Assistance Recipients, is now under way. This program , which was piloted in Winnipeg and Brand on in 1986-87, will, in the coming year, provide pre-employment assessment and counselling, training and work experience placement for about 600 sole­ support parents. Under the new agreement , the program will be exp anded and operated provincewide by seven Human Resour ce Opportunity Centres .

The agreement provides for the two levels of government to contribute jointly $3 million to support this initiative from April 1, 1987, to March 31 , 1988. Funding will be taken from social assistance budgets and used instead for th is employment preparation support . Employment preparation and training through the Single Parent Job Program encompasses a wide variety of skill levels and occupations, depending on the interests and abilities of program clients and available employment opportunities in the community.

Participants may move directly into employment experience placements with employ ers in the private, non-profit or public sectors for a period of up to six months, or they may enter an employment preparation program to develop basic work skills. Single parents participa ting would be paid minimum wages during their involvement in group programming or work experi ence. As well, they may receive support for costs associa ted with entering the labour force, such as child care or special clothing required for the workp lace.

At this time, Human Resource Opportunity Centres located in Winnipeg, Brandon, Dauphin, The Pas, Portage, Beausejour and Gimli are now undertaking recruitment for the Single Parent Job Access Program throug h referrals from social assistance workers and counsellors, Canada Employment Centres, the Human Resource Opportunity Program, and other social service agencies serving these regions . I'd like to note that while

part icipation in the Single Parent Job Program is entirely voluntary, it is anticipated that many single parents on social assistance will seek out this opportunity, preferring employment and the independence it brings to a life of welfa re dependency . This innovative program serves as a statement of the province's commitment to addressing the special needs of single parent social assistance recipients.

Manitoba has benefited from from the Single Parent Job Access Program since its inception as a pilot project, and it has helped to create opportunities for individuals who are now contributing to our province's economic growth. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I welcome this announcement by the Minister today of a program which , of course, jointly funded with the Federal Government, is doing something toward helping people on social assistance.

One of the problems of being on social assistance, of course, is the dependency that develops from it and this may in some way help that, and I hope that the Minister's numbers - when he speaks of 600 - that those numbers can be increased a great deal in the time to come . I'm also very glad to see that this is in the rural areas. This is one area where there is a problem .

These job opportunity training programs often occur in the major cities of Brandon and Winnipeg where, of course , I know that they're badly needed, but it is now an opportunity for the rural areas to take part, and that is a step in the right direction. I hope there is counselling to encourage as many people as possible to join in a program like this. I think one of the things , when a person is dependent on social assistance, one of thei r major problem is to get the courage to try to go out and get a job.

And this program, I hope will encourage that sort of activity, and we will be asking questions about it in Estimates, of course, to find out how it is working, how many people are being placed and how the pilot proj ect went this last year. We're hoping , of course, we all hope to work to more full employment in this province and I hope this is a step in the right direction. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. L. HARAPIAK: Madam Speake r, I have a ministerial statement and have copies for distribution .

Madam Speaker, I would like to make a statement with regard to the lire situation in the province. The total number of fires burning in the province today is 22. We estimate the total number of hectares burned in the province to be 38,241. The fire danger in the province is still extreme. Due to a lire at Fisher Bay the community was evacuated 2029

Thursday, 14 May, 1987 late Tuesday. Fortunately, the fire crew managed to get the fire under control and there was no loss of homes or other buildings . I'm happy to report, Madam Speaker , that all residents have returned to their homes at this time . Another fire reported Tuesday evening was in the Red Deer Hills area west of Lac du Bonnet , at the edge of the Brightstone Sand Hills Provincial Forest . This was actioned immediately by our ALERT response team and that fire is also under control. The Wallace Lake area received cooler temperatures and about 27 millimetres of rain yesterday evening .

This has allowed firefighters to re-establish all previous fire lines. The fire line has been extended up the east side of the fire, however, the situation is far from secure . One hot day will dry the area out again . Presently 450 firefighters are active on the Wallace Lake fire . Firefighters from many northern communities are being brought in this week and this will allow us to rotate firefighters throughout the province . The Woodridge fire in the southeast of the province received some rain and hail yesterday evening . This helped to bring the fire under control.

Presently there are 27 fires at that location . Madam Speaker, on behalf of all Manitobans , I would like to thank the firefighters , pilots, headquarters and rural staff, and Natural Resources Officers, all of whom have given long hours of hard work and dedication to gain control of the fires.

I would like to express our appreciation, as well, to the personnel of Abitibi-Price, Manitoba Telephone System, Highways and Transportation, Northern Affairs, the Community of Bissett and other agencies for their help in this extreme situation . approved facilities will be allowed only between the hours of 7:00 p.m. and 11:00 a.m., with these hours subject to adjustment at the discretion of the local Natural Resources Officer based on fire and weather conditions in that region. Canoeing and boating are limited to road accessible lakes with no landings permitted on undeveloped shorelines .

Aircraft landing or drop offs are prohibitted on undeveloped shore lines. However, aircraft travel to developed lodge facilities is permitted. Picnickers and other day users are encouraged to visit areas outside of the wooded districts, such as the Birds Hill Provincia l Park and Lake Winnipeg and Lake Manitoba beaches . Bush operations are suspended throughout the region, unless authorized , in writing, by a Natural Resources Officer . Madam Speaker , these restrictions remain in effect up to, and including , May 22, but may be lifted or expanded on short notice if conditions change ,.

Our department continues to monitor the situation closely j; to ensure the protection, not only of our fore;;! , resources, but to ensure the personal safety of Manitobans who enjoy these resources . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside . MR. H. ENNS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Certainly, on behalf of the Official Opposition, we would want to associate ourselves with the comments just made by the Minister when he indicates the hard work the firefighters have faced in the last little while in fighting the extreme situation that they 've had to face .

Those of us who have had some bush experience acknowledge that it's both dangerous , round-the-clock kind of effort that obviously has taken place there and we associate ourselves fully with those concerns. Madam Speaker, it would appear that the travel restrictions and other restrictions placed on Manitobans and visitors in our wooded areas are sensible and we support those in the main .

Hoping , as we all hope for I I I Madam Speaker , in spite of the fact that some areas of the province received rain over the last 24 hours, rainfall to date this spring in all of southern Manitoba is still much below normal, and the short-term forecast is for much higher temperatures, lower humidity and little or no rain. As a result, the fire hazard throughout the southern part of the province remains extreme.

The following travel restrictions have, therefore, been announced this morning to ensure the safety of everyone using Manitoba forests, and to reduce the risk of new fires. a change in the weather - more rain - to ease the A' ·. situation. t All open fires are prohibited in Manitoba . In the southern part of the province, south of the 53rd Parallel, the following additional restrictions are in effect, and I will highlight these only, Madam Speaker , details as provided in the materials: No burning permits will be issued. Backcountry and off-road travel is prohibited in the wooded districts .

Access to Nopiming Provincial Park is limited to cottage subdivisions and campgrounds accessible from PR 315. Access to Wallace Lake and the remainder of Nopiming Provincial Park, including Beresford Lake, Long Lake and Black Lake is prohibited east of Bissett on PR 304, and from the south end at the junction of PR 314 and PR 315. Cottaging is permitted, except in the closed areas of Nopiming Provincial Park. All provincial park campgrounds will be open, with the exception of closed areas within Nopiming Park and the Lone Island Campground .

Wood fires in Madam Speaker, the Minister indicated, in a previous statement, that at least one of the major fires was likely suspected to be arson . We have, as yet, no further indication as to the cause of the other major fire . We'll look forward in other statements from the Minister, and other information coming from the department, as to the precise causes of these fires .

Madam Speaker, it's also not too early to say, particularly when the province suffers such heavy losses - we are now looking in this short little while of having some 70,000 or 80,000 acres, or 30,000 to 40,000 hectares, of prime forest land ravaged by fire - that the department plan ahead and to program the widest possible salvage operation to take place in the burnt­ out areas . There is a very limited time for these stands that can be salvaged before other natural causes - worm decay - begin to make that salvage less profitable .

Surely bureaucracy ought not to stand in the way of salvaging the best we can out of a poor situation. I remind the Minister and the government that, indeed , there 's a heightened interest in the gathering 2030

Thursday, 14 May, 1987 of wood just by ordinary citizens of Manitoba for their own use; and, of course , we have traditional commercial users who are well acquainted with salvage operations under these circumstances . So that , while I concur that our job right now is to contain the fires - and that comes first of course - but I would encourage the Minister to have his staff people also planning the necessary mopping up and salvaging operations that can do two things - gain some value out of the remaining portion of the resource that we have, as well as, to help clean up the areas in a speedier fashion.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. A. MACKLING introduced, by leave, Bill No. 32, The Retail Businesses Holiday Closing Act ;

Loi sur les jours feries dans le commerce de detail. ' MOTION presented . MADAM SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker , I have a short explanation , as provided under Rule No. 85. Madam Speaker , this bill ensures that as many working men and women in the retail industry as possibl e will enjoy either Saturday or Sunday as a traditional day of pause . By taking this action to preserve an important aspect of Manitoba lifestyle, the government is protecting family life and an individual's ability to socialize .

This bill also protects hundreds of jobs in the small retail business sector. Manitobans already have more than enough access to major shopping facilities throughout the week . Not being able to do major shopping on Sunday is neither an impos ition, nor a major inconvenience . This bill does not diminish Sunday shopping that exists already; it limits a questionable expansion of Sunday shopping . Madam Speaker , this is a reasonable bill and one that should be supported by all fair-minded people .

INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MADAM SPEAKER: Before proceeding to Oral Quest ions , may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have 18 Grade 9 students from the Murdoch MacKay Collegiate 1mder the direction of Mrs . Nancy Trush . The school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines . We have 30 students from Grade 5 from the Chancellor Elementary School. These students are under the direction of Miss Linda Clark . The school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Fort Garry.

On behalf of all the members, we welcome you to the Legislature this afternoon . Also, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the loge to my right where we have Mr. 2031 Rod Murphy , who is the Member of Parliament for Churchill, visiting. On behalf of all the members, we welcome you to the Legislature this afternoon. Order please . The Clerk just reminded me that we did not put the question on the first reading of Bill No. 32. All in favour? Agreed and so ordered . ORAL QUESTIONS Co-op Implements Ltd.- 49 percent Dutch owned MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposit ion . MR. G.

FILMON: Thank you , Madam Speaker , I knew you were going to recognize me. Madam Speaker , my question is for the Minister responsible for Co-op Development. I wonder if he could explain how it is that a Dutch multinational corporation can own a 49 percent interest in a cooperative, namely , CCIL. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Co­ op Development . HON. J. COWAN: Madam Speaker , what the Leader of the Opposit ion is referring to is an arrangement that has been developed between Vicon Limited and Co­ op Implements , in respect to the operation of both of those different entities .

As you are aware, Vicon located in the Province of Manitoba several years ago bringing with it expertise, a new industry , jobs and benefits for, not only the province as a whole but, more particularly, for rural Manitoba . A year ago, when Co-op Implements required some management assistance to help it through a difficult time, it entered into a management agreement with Vicon that allowed Vicon to provide them with some of that expertise in order to rebuild Co-op Implements so that they could continue to serve the rural communities of Manitoba , and Manitoba generally .

As a result of that working relationship which , as the Member for La Verendrye said yesterday, turned out to be a dramatic turnaround for the company, Vicon and Co-op Implements decided to go one step further in their working arrangement .

They have come to a business arrangement between the two entities which allows for Vicon to have a certain interest in Co-op, and for Co-op and Vicon to sit on a board of directors - and I might add , Madam Speaker, that board of directors is structured so that both of them have a complete and total say as to what will be done in the organization; one entity can't control the other entity, they both have to be agreeable to the action that's being taken .

I believe, Madam Speaker, that sort of arrangement, which is unique and innovative , will brlrig · long-term benefits and jobs and a stronger farm implement industry to the province . MADAM SPEAKER: May I remind Honourable Ministers that answers to questions should be brief .

Thursday, 14 May, 1987 Vicon - corporate income tax MR. G. FILMON : Madam Speaker, I don't believe that the Minister did answer my question , but I will give him an opportunity to answer this question then. Is Vicon , the Dutch multinational corporation, paying corporate income taxes in the same way as they would as a private corporation, or do they get any advantages in tax by way of being involved with a cooperative structure? HON. J.

COWAN: Madam Speaker , Vicon, as it is located and operating in Canada would get the same benefits - and Manitoba - as other corporations operating in Canada and Manitoba, whether they be federal benefits or provincial benefits . There are certain tax benefits that accrue to corporations that will accrue to Vicon, and some of them will , in fact, be impacted by the way in which they are now organizationally structured, just as those same benefits would apply to Versatile.

I have to remind members opposite what they had to say when another farm implement industry was saved in this province, how glad they were that happened. It would apply in the same way to them; it would apply in the same way to any major industry . There is nothing unusual about what is taking place in this regard; they are taking advantage of those tax benefits, primarily, those tax benefits of the Federal Government that would accrue to any other company or any other corporation or any other business entity in exactly the same circumstances. Workers Compensation Board - Report of King Commission MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister responsible for the Workers Compensation Board. On May 4, in response to my question with respect to the tabling, or at least the handing in of the report of the King Commission, the Legislative Review Committee into the Workers Compensation Board, the Minister said that he expected to have that report by the end of last week. Is his office now in possession of the report of the King Commission? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister responsible for Workers Compensation. HON . H.

HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, there has been a complete copy of the report delivered to my office . It is now being edited for printing, not edited, it's in the process of being printed , Madam Speaker , we should expect it in about three weeks. King Commission Report - tabling of MR. G. FILMON: I'm not sure whether that slip was intentional, Madam Speaker, but I'll ask the Minister responsible for the Workers Compensation Board when he is able to table it in the Legislature? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker , let me assure the Leader of the Opposition that the report is not being edited , that was a slip.

We expect that the report will be printed within three weeks and, once we have had an opportu nity to assess the report , then we'll be . tabling it. ' Manfor - purchase offers MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Madam Speaker . I have a question to the First Minister.

Madam Speaker, we were told this morning at Manfor, at the committee dealing with the Manfor Report, that there were four companies that are interested in the purchase of the Crown-owned corporation, of which the taxpayers have invested some, probably $250-some million in equity shares and the carrying of some losses ' of in excess of $50 million, a direct cost to the taxpayers, and we have a major stake , Madam Speaker, as taxpayers.

My question to the First Minister : Will he live up to what his Minister said, or support his Minister in the provision of all documentations, particularly who 's interested in the purchase of it? The Minister indicated he had two offers, two written proposals to enter into purchase agreements; will the Minister provide that information , who they are and at what price he's selling Manfor for? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I'm not quite sure what the Minister indicated this morning.

However, I believe it to be very unusual if documentation along the lines that the member has illustrated would be released during a process of negotiation. Subsequent negotiations, it's a different matter , but during the process of negotiation it is a matter of public interest that the public receive maximum benefit as a result of any sale. That does not mean, Madam Speaker , that government's proposals or counterproposals , or counter -counterproposals would be in the public domain until a contract is finally arrived at maximizing the interest to Manitobans as a whole. MR. J.

DOWNEY: Madam Speaker , in view of the fact that the taxpayers have a massive interest in dollars and cents, and the economic future of the Manfor Forest Products and those people who are depending on it for the jobs, those hundreds of jobs in The Pas area, is it too much to ask who the Canadian companies are that are offering to buy it? I don't believe, Madam Speaker, when there are four people who are making offers, that that is disclosing anything that has anything to do with the deal. Would he provide it, Madam Speaker, for the public? HON. J.

STORIE: Madam Speaker , I just want to put on the record, a matter of historical fact, that the significant investment that Manfor represents, and the concern that the member expresses for recouping some of that investment , of cou rse , was a result of a particularly careless deal that saw the investm ent of Manitoba taxpayers' money, not only in the facility, but also into the pockets of some very unscrupulous individuals . 2032

Thursday, 14 May, 1987 Madam Speaker, I indicated in committee this morning that I would not be releasing any of the names of the people who were interested or involved in negotiations; that I respect the confidentiality of those companies to have negotiations conducted in a private fashion. But I did indicate that the conditions, Madam _Speak er, for the sale, the divestiture for any joint private ·sector participation in Manfor would be based on three simple principles. Madam Speaker, they seem to be a bit sensi ti ve that I'm providing the facts.

The Member for Arthu r has indicated that he would like to know the conditions upon which the government will sell or divest itself of ,Manfor or be involved in joint

part icipation. If he's really interested, Madam Speaker, I will certainly inform him of it . MADAM SPEAKER: May I just refresh honourable members' memory of Beauchesne Citation No. 359(2) which says: " The question must be brief. A

preamble needs not exceed one carefully drawn sente nce. A long

preamble on a long question takes an unfair share of time and provokes th e same sort of reply. A supplementary question should need no

preamble." And that answers to questions should be brief. Legislative Building - check for PCB contamination MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have a new question, to the would-be or whoever is the Minister responsible for Governme nt Services, Madam Speaker.

The other day I asked a question to the Minister of Government Services as to whether or not the building was being checked for PCB's, and the Minister in his response , and I'll refer to the .. . -(Interjection)- Well, I'll tell you, Madam Speaker, if it's PC's they're worried about there'll be a lot more in very short order, I can assure them that. They'll need a lot more inspectors. Madam Speaker, the Minister said that he was not aware of any PCB test being conducted in this building two days ago. The report in the newspaper yesterday indicates, in fact, that there was a major test being done.

I ask whoever the Minister is, Madam Speaker, responsible for the Legislative Building, what was the outcome of the test? Is there any contamination of PCB's , any public health or anybody's health put at danger in the building? I leave the question open to whatever Minister asked for the test to be done. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Government Services . HON. H. HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, there was a newspaper

article about three weeks ago on PCB 's, and I guess the PC's continue to be consistent in their approach; they continue to use the Free Press as their source of information . Madam Speaker, there was some concern raised about the fluorescent lighting that was installed in 1970. There was a routine investigation carried on into the small box, the ballast box , where there is some concern about the capacitor possibly leaking PCB's. There is a sample being taken and we have not had any results of the sample that had been taken at this time.

Bank of Nova Scotia - head office to Calga ry MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I took a question as notice yesterday from the Member for St. Norbert regarding the move of the Bank of Nova Scotia 's regional office from Winnipeg to somewhere else and, as usual, with that rumour­ mongering doom and gloom crowd down there, there is nothing true about it. We've been in touch with officials from the Bank of Nova Scotia who . . . HON. H. PAWLEY: I think they got in touch with us. HON. V.

SCHROEDER: As the Premier notes, they got in touch with us, and with him, and they have told us they are furious about that kind of allegation which is totally unfounded and which can have an impact on the morale of the staff , and is again wrong in the way the Opposition tends to be wrong as they were with the ad company. Madam Speaker, there again, I had a meeting with the people from Ford-New Holland, one of the people referred to by that particular agency two months ago , and they agreed that where quality is reasonable in Manitoba, the job will go to Manitoba.

Shelter Allowances - no increase since 1983 MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Economic Security. Madam Speaker, the government boasts of its assistance program for the poor. For example, in this year's Throne Speech, it declared that the government has maintained and improved measures to assist low­ income Manitobans in coping with economic security. It goes on to say that, unlike other provinces, Manitoba has not restricted eligibility for benefits, and has increased basic social allowances.

Would the Minister, therefore, explain why there has been no increase since 1983 of Shelter Allowances for those who are , in fact, on social assistance in this province? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Employment Services and Economic Security. HON. L. EVANS: Madam Speaker , the honourable member's question is based on a story in yesterday's Free Press and, regrettably, that story is filled with total inaccuracies. 2033

Thursday, 14 May, 1987 Madam Speaker , t he fact of the matter is that we do have rental guide line s that are adjusted every year. The last adjustment was of January 1, 1987. I might advise the honourabl e member that the adjustment is in line with the rent regulations of this province. Last year, January 1, 1987, we permitted landlords to raise the rents by 3 percent - this is the guideline that we use. I can assure the Honourable Member for River Heights that each year we have endeavoured to keep up with increases in revenue .

I might also advise the honourable member , however , that the regional directors have the authority to pay actual rent , including utilities, if circumstances warrant, and there are many cases where this occurs and , indeed, I think , therefore , we have a very progressive policy with regard to providing shelter . Shelter Allowances - deductible increase to $100 MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: A supplementary question , Madam Speaker .

Will the Minister take any action in response to the request by the people attending that conference that deductible earnings over $50 should be increased to , say, a deductibility of over $100 for those on social assistance? HON. L. EVANS: Again, Madam Speaker, here 's another example of an inaccuracy in that story . I'm not blaming the Member for River Heights , but the fact is, Madam Speaker, that we have a policy which enables a person indeed to keep that amount , but we also say you can keep 30 percent of the gross income earned , whichever is larger.

So that benefit is the richest benefi t paid of any of the provinces in Canada so that indeed , therefore , Madam Speaker, as the income earned goes up, the amount of money that the welfare recipient receives also goes up. So I would say that we are treating people who regrettably have to be on social allowan ce in a very progressive way, and providing them with adequate incentives so that they may, if they wish to, get out and find supplementary employment . Special Needs Allowance - change in 20 years MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: With a final supplementary, Madam Speaker .

It's absolutely amazing all th is communication from the Minister and none of the people on social assistance know about it. Would the Min ister tell us what change has been taken in the $150 for more than 20 years on Special Needs Allowance? HON. L. EVANS: Madam Speaker , I would suggest that most of our recipients realize the program and they know the bene fits that are being provided . I know many organizations do, like the Manitoba Anti-Poverty Organiza tion , is well-versed in our regu lations .

They are doing a job too; they' re doing a good job in giving that informa~ ion to mem bers and people particularly who are new onto the program . In ter ms of special needs, Madam Speaker , yes there is $150 limit which hasn't been changed for many years,, but that $15 0 is not the limit . If a recipient requ ires. additional assistance for whatever , a purchase of a major appliance or if there is a very serious medical , circumstance where someone has to be given special, treatment, additional drugs or spec ial equipment and , so on, that money is provided.

So I would say that , again, our tre at men t of people is very generous. The. $150 limit is really meaningless, Madam Speake r. Natural gas prices - decision of Public Utilities Board MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside . MR. H. ENNS: Madam Speaker, I can remember very well a question to the First Minister about this time a little over a year ago. I think we were in the midst of an election . The Premier promised Manitobans that he was going to do something about gasoline prices .

I can remember just three or four months ago and , if I can't remember , I know for sure all the delegates that were at the NDP Annual Convention will remember this Premier 's commitment to bringing down substantially those who use natural gas in the City of Winnipeg and the Province of Manitoba . Madam Speaker, my question to the First Minister is: Does the First Minister consider the recent decision by the Public Utilities Board as a keeping of that prom ise? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minis ter. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, first in respect to gasoline prices , that in fact was realized, as t he honourable member realizes I'm sure , last year. Insofar as his specific question though - and I'm glad the honourable member has rais ed the question of the Publi c Utiliti es Board hearing and the question of natural gas prices . I am disappointed in the decision by the Public Utilities Board yesterd ay.

I believe that it is indeed unfortunate tha t the Publ ic Utilities Board that is responsible for the regulation of price s in respect to basic commodities such as natural gas in the Prov ince of Manit oba found itself una ble, acc ord ing to its inability to deal with this matter jurisdictionally , to rule differen tly than it did . Madam Speak er, from the decision that was rendered yesterday, it is clear that the prices being charge by Inter -City Gas are excessive. They're disc rimin atory to the people of the Province of Manitoba .

Madam Speak er, we do not rest content on the basis of the decision yesterday by the Public Utilities Board . This government, along with the Minister of Energy represent ing us, will continue with our efforts by way of negotiations and other options to ensure that the homeowners and small businesses of the Prov ince of Manitoba are not left to continue to be overcharged by excessive and discriminatory rates as described by the Publi c Utilities Board . MR. H. ENNS: Madam Speaker, in view of the track record of this First Minister on these kinds of questions 2034

Thursday, 14 May, 1987 because, as I recall passing gasoline stations today, they were up at 47, 48 cents per litre, which was pretty well what they were prior to the last election. But my question to the First Minister: Would he describe the answer that he just gave as political grandstanding? MADAM SPEAKER: All right, please. That question is out of order. It does seek an opinion. Abraham case - investigation into MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert . MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Community Services.

Yesterday, the presiding judge in the Abraham case had harsh words for the social workers who worked with that family and the young two-year-old who was killed, in saying they appeared to have neglected the child. He wondered if there had not been follow-up by the proper authorities to ensure this home was protected and the tragedy avoided. Could the Minister indicate when she will be tabling in the House her department's investigation into this matter? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, the report will come shortly .

As I said before, we wait until the court case is complete and then we will complete our

summary, forward it to the board of the agency, and discuss it with them, because we do want to review the policies and procedures in great detail and see that, where corrective action is needed, it is taken . But we will table the

summary of the report and recommendations here very shortly . Land Transfer Tax - implementation of MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker, I have a new question for the Attorney-General. In his quest for new sources of revenue, the Minister of Finance has ordered the Attorney-General to implement tomorrow a land transfer tax, a completely new tax on Manitobans, Madam Speaker. Could the Attorney-General indicate whether this tax will be implemented by virtue of regulations or by virtue of new legislation, as we have seen neither? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R.

PENNER: Madam Speaker, the Minister of Finance does not go around ordering his colleagues to do this, that or the other thing. We make collective decisions . We act very much as a collective government, and that particular decision is no different from other decisions of that kind .

Yes, the effective date for the change in the Land Titles fees, which will be going down, and the imposition of the land transfer tax is in fact tomorrow , and it will take place ; and in common with all tax legislation , there will be legislat ion brought in before the end of this Session by the Minister of Finance in one of the tax bills that will provide the ultimate statutory authority for that tax . Land Transfer Tax - transitional period MR. G.

MERCIER: Madam Speaker, I was giving the Attorney-General an opportunity to get off the hook for the responsibility for the implementation of this new tax on Manitobans, but if he wants to assume . MADAM SPEAKER: Question? MR. G. MERCIER: . . . responsibility, he can have it.

I would ask him, Madam Speaker, in view of the fact we have neither regulations nor legislation with respect to this matter, in the event that a document, a Transfer of Land is rejected from the Land Titles Office this week for some sort of technical defect , will there be a transitional provision in the legislation then that would allow the document to be re-registered May 15 or after, at the same fee level as was in existence prior till tomorrow? HON. R. PENNER: A very good question, Madam Speaker. In fact . . . Bless you, Madam Speaker . Are you sensitive to PCB's, Madam Speaker?

Directions have gone out, at my request, from the Registrar General of the Land Titles Office to the Land Titles system that, in fact, if that happens , then it is the lower original fee that will be paid and not the post May 15th fee. Natural gas prices - reduction of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR. M. DOLIN: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question follows on the question from the Member for Lakeside through the Minister of Energy and Mines.

It appears that the Public Utilities Board has stated that ICG did not aggressively pursue alternate sources, that the rate should be between $2 and $2.25 per thousand cubic feet and yet they allow $2.96 per thousand cubic feet of gas, which strikes me as somebody being charged and convicted of theft and then being given an absolute discharge. MADAM SPEAKER: Question? MR. M. DOLIN: I'm wondering if the Minister of Energy and Mines can tell me what action can by taken to see whether or not the rates can be brought down to what the Public Utilities Board says they actually should be.

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. W. PARASIUK: Madam Speaker, the Public Utilities Board did indeed rule that the prices are 2035

Thursday, 14 May, 1987 excessive and discriminatory. They indicated that ICG did not aggressively pursue lower prices for Manitobans. They also indicated that they felt they did not have the power to handle this particular issue and they have asked the Government of Manitoba to deal with this entire issue to remove the constraints and ensure that Manitobans have the lowest and fairest prices possible . This government has been involved in negotiations with Alberta, with the Federal Government, with the various companies over the course of the last six months.

Now that the Public Utilities Board has come down with their report, we are accelerating our efforts and, Madam Speaker, when we bring forward our action, I know that people on all sides of the House will be linked 100 percent to ensure that we do in fact bring about the lowest and fairest prices for Manitoba . MR. M. DOLIN: A supplementary , Madam Speaker, to the same Minister.

Can the Minister inform the House what specific action can be taken on this particular price approval and whether or not this particular price approval can be brought back either through court appeals, or what have you, to what it actually should be according to the Public Utilities Board? MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. Could the honourable member please rephrase his question so it's not hypothetical and does not ask an opinion? Natural gas prices - reversal of prices rise MR. M.

DOLIN: My question to the Minister is what specific action can be taken on this particular ruling of the Public Utilities Board, either by special interest groups or by government, to bring the price back to where it should be? HON. W. PARASIUK: Madam Speaker, there is a procedure whereby people can in fact appeal a decision of the Public Utilities Board or the ruling of the Public Utilities Board to a court. I understand that one or two of the interest groups that appeared before the hearings have indicated that they are exploring that particular option .

The Government of Manitoba will be pursuing the major focus, which is to reform the system as soon as possible to ensure that we no longer have a situation whereby prices are excessive and discriminatory. That will be the focus of our attack, Madam Speaker . Gov't policy - spousal appointments MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry . MR. C. BIRT: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the First Minister. The husband of the Minister of Community Services has been appointed by this government to the Teachers' Retirement Allowance Fund Board and is to receive compensation for that appointment.

The same individual has been appointed over the past three years to the Health Sciences Services Centre. My question to the First Minister: Is it now government policy to appoint the spouse of members of the government to paying jobs? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I'm disappointed that a question such as that would be posed . If the honourable member had checked, he would have found that the appointment was made on the recommendation of the Teachers ' Society.

As well, the honourable member should be aware that the service and the contribution by the individual in question is being done to the Province of Manitoba without any compensation , without any expectation of any reward whatsoever . I would like to indeed, in view of the fact that it's been raised in this Chamber, thank the individual in question for volunteering his time and effort, on behalf of the people of the Province of Manitoba, as a result of his having been recommended by an interest group that requires representation on the board in question. Gov't policy - appointments and funding of children MR. C.

BIRT: In light of the appointment of children of Cabinet Ministers to Crown Corporation Boards and Cabinet Minister's children receiving special grants through the Department of Education and also through the umbrella groups of Lotteries funds, is it now the policy of this government to give funding and special appointments to the children of members of the government? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, we seem to be moving towards some mud right now , and I would like the Honourable Member for Fort Garry to identify the Cabinet Minister's children who are receiving some sort of special assistance .

I would like the Member for Fort Garry to identify the Cabinet Minister, the children it involved, the circumstances , so we know whether we're in the mud or whether we're not in the mud . Gov't policy - appointment of family members MR. C. BIRT: My question to the First Minister : Is it the policy to appoint family members to public-paying board positions throughout this province? Because if it is, then it puts the whole system in disrepute . Is it the policy of this government to appoint family members to boards and commissions in this province? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I don 't know what the honourable member - he says, if indeed, and refers to a paying position. I don't know what the honourable member is referring to. I thought that the Chamber of Commerce should indeed at this point be commended for a letter that they sent to the party leaders in this Chamber - and the Leader of the Opposition would have received that, the Honourable Member for River Heights - asking members in this Chamber to avoid spending so much time with allegations of conflict of interest, innuendo, 2036

Thursday, 14 May, 1987 rather than dealing with the important issues of the Province of Manitoba . I would commend the Chamber of Commerce for having so advised us, and would like to relate that advice from the Chamber of Commerce to the Honourable Member for Fort Garry. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. Landfill site - environmental effect MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Niakwa . MR. A. KOVNATS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would direct my question to the Honourable Minister of Environment, Workplace Safety and Health.

I have been advised that, as of June 1, 1987, a landfill site will come into being in the Rural Municipality of Cornwallis, directly over a sand and gravel aquifer, and it's going to be located on the southwest quarter of

Section 8, Township 10, Range 17. Can the Minister advise if this dump will have any environmental effect on the drinking water supply in the district? A MEMBER: Oh! You got cut off at the knees there, Gerry. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I'm reluctant to do this but the - on a point of order - Member for Fort Garry has left a shadow over all the children of Ministers of this government, over all Ministers of this government, by the allegation that was made a few moments ago, an innuendo, a serious innuendo . I would ask the Honourable Member for Fort Garry to assist in removing that shadow . . .

SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please . HON. H. PAWLEY: . . . or identify the individual which he is so charging. MADAM SPEAKER: The proper time to raise a point of order is when it has happened. We have moved on in our proceedings to the Member for Niakwa. The Honourable Minister of the Environment. HON. G. LECUYER: Oh, yes, I can hear you now, Madam Speaker.

There has been, as far as I know, no decision made at this point in time in terms of an additional landfill site for the R.M. of Cornwallis which presenty has an arrangement with the Base of Shilo, CFB Shilo, where they deposit presently their wastes. Because the contract terminates in 1988, they are looking potentially at a new site. The department has indeed been involved in investigations ano drilling test holes and, more recently, has been in correspondence with concerned citizens of that area.

And I am rather gratified, Madam 2037 Speaker, that citizens are increasingly concerned about the potentially inherent problems associated with landfill sites, because indeed they do frequently pose problems as we are all too well aware of. All I can add, at this point in time, Madam Speaker, is that the staff from my department are also meeting with members of the rural municipality tomorrow, and there will be further assessments.

But it does appear , indeed, that there is gravel above the aquifer and, if a landfill were to be developed, it would have to be under special procedures, and special precautions taken, such as, impermeable layers constructed on top, so that it could be used as a landfill site. So there are no decisions that have been made in this regard at this point in time. I want to end, Madam Speaker, by saying that the department's responsibility is to ensure that when landfill sites are developed, that they are developed in accordance with the regulations in place. We do not select the sites for that purpose.

Finally, Madam Speaker, I want to thank the member for advising me that he was going to ask me this question yesterday . MR. A. KOVNATS: To the same Minister. I am advised that it will take place, as of January 1, it will be a fail accompli. Can the Honourable Minister advise his department to immediately advise him of a stop-action work order so that we can assure and ensure that there will be a clean water supply for the residents in that area? HON. G.

LECUYER: As I've said before , there is a meeting scheduled for tomorrow on this very issue with the members of the R.M. of Cornwallis, at which time the decisions may require further investigation and testing. As I said before though, Madam Speaker, our responsibility is to ensure that the municipal body that proposes to develop a landfill site does so in accordance with the regulations, to ensure that if there is, indeed, a landfill site developed, that it will not contaminate underground water.

I have to add, Madam Speaker, that my preference, and that of the department, would be that the current arrangements with CFB Shilo were to continue in place until that site could be filled, and that I understand is good for quite a few years to come. Perhaps we can provide some measure of assistance to the Municipality of Cornwallis in their negotiations to renew that contract. All of these things will be determined as part of that meeting. Lakeshore Land Improvement Co-op - repayment of loan MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye . MR. H. PANKRATZ: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

My question is to the Minister of Cooperative Development. Lakeshore Land Improvement Co-op received a loan in 1985, an interest-free loan, and their payments fall due on March 11 of each year, I believe . Have the 1986 and March 11, 1987, payments been made?

Thursday, 14 May, 1987 MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Co­ op Development. HON. J. COWAN: Madam Speaker , it's interesting how members opposite picked out certain co-ops and certain co-operative entities to ask questions about consistently. Madam Speaker, we're quite proud of being able to assist the Matis community in that area to form a cooperative, to work together , to work the land so that they can become productive citizens of that area by their own hard work, sweat and their own abilities.

Madam Speaker, we were proud to lend them the money and I am proud to say that through that money they are performing a service for the province, they are creating jobs and they are ahead of their repayment

schedule at present. MADAM SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired . The Honourable Opposition House Leader. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Madam Speaker . May I have leave to make a very non-political statement? MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have leave? (Agreed) NON-POLITICAL STATEMENT MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert . MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Madam Speaker .

Since some time last summer, I've had the opportunity to serve as secretary of the committee hosting the Canadian National Gymnastics and Trampoline Championships, being held in Winnipeg, which started yesterday and will end on Sunday evening . The official opening ceremonies were held last night, and I thank the Honourable Minister of Sport for sending Mr. Don Stone, the Director of Sport , who ably represented him at the official opening ceremonies .

I'm sure all members of the House would like to welcome the hundreds of visitors, athletes, judges , officials, supporters, parents who are in Winnipeg this week for this event, Madam Speaker . We all hope, of course, that they enjoy their visit in Winnipeg . Perhaps of special significance to the House, Madam Speaker , the daughter of the Member for Brandon West, who is in the gallery today, will be participating in the trampoline aspect of the championships . ORDERS OF THE DAY HOUSE BUSINESS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J.

COWAN: Madam Speaker, on a few matters of House Business, first, I'd like to indicate we will be dealing with Condolence Motions tomorrow by agreement with members opposite . The Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources will be meeting on Thursday, May 21 , at 10:00 a.m., to continue its consideration of the report of the Manitoba Telephone System . I also understand , Madam Speaker, that there 's an inclination on the part of all members to forego Private Members' Hour today, and to continue on with our review of the Estimates in the Committee of Supply.

I therefore move, Madam Speaker, seconded by the Honourable Attorney-General, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Community Services ; and the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet in the Chair for the Department of Education . CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY f: : SUPPLY - EDUCATION MR. CHAIRMAN, C.

Baker: I understand that you are at page 56 , Resolution 52, Universities Grants Commission , No. 6.(

a) Salaries - the Member for Kildonan. MR. M. DOLIN: Through you, I'd like to ask the Minister about the Challenge Program . My understanding is that this program was instituted about three years ago , and I'm wondering - is it in effect now and have people been availing themselves of this program? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. J. STORIE: Although I've never heard of it, I understand it's doing very well. I don't know what you're talking about. MR. M.

DOLIN: The program was announced by the previous Minister some three years ago, and I don 't know whether it's still in effect and that's what I'm trying to find out. This is a program for foreign-trained professionals to be able to not to have to start in law school or medical school, that they can challenge various courses and start at a higher level. I'm wondering, is this program still in effect and how many people are availing themselves of it. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, yes, a credit challenge , I can 't speak for the universities obviously .

They evaluate the credentials of people who apply for university positions on their own . I can only indicate that , within the teacher certification and records area, we have gone out of our way to make sure that there is some sort of way to balance the credentials of people transferring in, i mmigrants coming with professional certificates and so forth from out of country with the requirements in province . In fact , I think I've moved some way to making sure that individuals who are trained professionals outside of Canada are eligible for certification in the province . 2038

Thursday, 14 May, 1987 MR. M. DOLIN: I doubt if the M inister has this information available at his fingertips, but the Universities of Winnipeg , Brandon and Manitoba, if this kind of program is available , I'm wonder ing if the Minister could provide information as to what professional schools or departments make this available and how does one apply. I have a number of constituents who were professionally trained abroad , particularly in India, the Philippines, etc. , who would like to avail themselves of programs who are now underemployed , I feel, based on their skills.

I would like to be able to direct them into these credit challenge programs , and I'm wondering what schools have them, in what departments are they available. Could the Minister prov ide this information? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson , I am not aware of any overall program . I'm aware of certain initiatives to speed up either the process of certification , or programs to take people and recognize some of their credentials towards certification or professional status and then move them along and support, for example , the development of the language skills .

But I'm not aware of any overriding program to which someone can apply. There are individual circumstances and individual faculties , and I've mentioned what's happening at the teachers ' certification area. MR. M. DOLIN: Approximately three to four years ago , there was a specific program announced by the previous Minister. I think it just dealt at the U of M. I'm wondering if perhaps that program is still in effect or is a university ­ based program , probably not through the department - I don't know. I would like information on it so I can provide such to my constituency. HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson , I will endeavour to get from the universities details on whatever challenge programs they might have available and get it back to the member, but the department is not currently running any internally . MR. M. DOLIN: Thank you . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ellice . MR. H. SMITH: I'd like to ask the Minister: .Your department is evaluating credentials for people who are not going for teaching or any job with education. Are you still pursuing that practice? HON. J.

STORIE : The individual who has been responsible for the credential evaluation, we're Rot on that section, so none of those staff are here. But perhaps if the member would like, I could arrange to pass on some information about what the current practices are, both in terms of educational certificates and others that may be available either through the community colleges or schools. MR. H. SMITH: What I'm asking is the City of Winnipeg sends people over to the branch, and the branch evaluates the certificates for the City of Winnipeg . HON. J. STORIE: For the city in what respect? MR. H.

SMITH: Well someone applying, for example , for a job in the police department and has credentials from the Philippines or wherever it may be. Really my experience with that is they do it by the book. In fact, last summer, I had a situation where a person was away , and I believe the secretary was doing the evaluations . I do think it's important to look into that . HON. J. STORIE: Just so we're clear, the member's not talking about a test that is given? He's not talking about GED tests? MR. H. SMITH: No. The City of Winnipeg sends someone and says, look it, you get your credentials evaluated by the department .

They go down to the department . . . HON. J. STORIE: So it would be a credentials check going back to the individual schools or institutions. MR. H. SMITH: I just don 't believe you should be doing that for the City of Winnipeg or for a private employer. HON. J. STORIE: Interesting point, and it's not that I'm opposed to doing that. There may be some fee involved . MR. H. SMITH: There should be a fee involved . I don't think there is. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My question is to the Minister .

I think in January of this year, the Minister announced the increase of funding for the coming year to the universities . Then some three months later, his colleague, the Minister of Finance, imposed a fair number of taxes that, in effect, reduced the amount of funds that would then be flowing through to the universities for this particular year.

The Minister indicated that he was considering reviewing or looking at the question of whether there was some hand back or some compensation for the loss of the taxes because I believe, for the University of Manitoba, it's about $1.8 million of loss in the grant that they would have otherwise received. What's the status on the rev iew? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, the Universit ies Grants Commiss ion has been in touch with the universities and reviewed the issue of increasing cost, not only in terms of the budget that was announced provincially , but the impact of budget changes coming from the Federal Government and other increasing costs that are really fixed costs. In fact, I believe the commission has made some recommendations . Those will be reviewed , and I expect that there may be some adjustment to the base of support to universities announced over the next couple of months.

I have indicated to the universities that is in process as well, and that I am hopeful that some adjustment will be made . MR. C. BIRT: We saw, Mr. Chairman , in

section 16- 3.(d) , where there 'd been a transfer out of the 2039

Thursday, 14 May, 1987 Department of Finance into the Department of Education of funds basically equ ivalent to the cost of the payroll to the school divisions. They had been compensated for that sum, but it had shown on the treasury books before now. They appear in the books of the Department of Education . There doesn't seem to be any specific line for that type of compensation. So is there compensation then flowing through to the universities for at least the payroll tax portion, similar to what the school divisions are receiving? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson , there is no local government support program which would be applicable to the univers ities . MA. C. BIRT: Is the Minister saying that then there is no compensation for the taxes that were imposed in the budget that basically subtracted funds that the Minister had previously announced to the universities , except for this possible review that the Minister has just made reference to? HON. J. STORIE: The review, yes , Mr. Chairperson, -will take into consideration the additional costs that accrue to the univers ities as a result of budget changes, but not only the budget changes .

As I've indicated, there are other circumstances which create addit ional expenses for the universities including federal budgets . MA. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, the Minister makes reference to implications of the federal budget. Are those same studies being applied to the effect of the federal budge t on the school divisions and, if there 's any compensation flowing through to the university because of the federa l budget , will the same be flow ing through then to the school divisions? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson , as the member knows, school divisions are funded on a substant ially different basis than universities and, in fact, school divisions receive support based on their supportable expenditures which includes operating expenditures of one kind and another , so there isn't the same necessity . Those costs are already included in our calculations of the support that goes to each school division . MA. C. BIRT: Mr.

Chairman, when the funding came forward from the Universities Grants Commission to Cabinet this year for a particular recommendation as to the funding they should get, was there any discussion from that body that if certa in funding levels weren't met that there would be a reduction in the number of students who could attend university? HON. J. STORIE: No, Mr. Chairperson, certainly no indication of potential direct impact for student enrolment. I think everyone recognizes that to the extent that funding is constra ined, i t is going to create the necessity at the institutional level for change .

In some cases, that has meant imposing cer tain restrictions on enrolment or making other changes which have an impact. But there was no identification of numbers because , really, that's not a very fruitful exercise , because the institutions have many, many ways of adapting other than limiting enrolment. MA. C. BIRT: Mr.

Chairman , I believe a Cabinet paper went forward in the '85-86 fiscal year which dealt with the question of certain funding if you got a certain percentage , or if a certain amount was given to the universities that enrolments , because of the lack of funding to the universities , in the universities or in certa in faculties would have to be curtailed and that was a consideration put forward to the Cabinet .

What I would like to know is whether or not , when the Cabinet set its grant structure for this year, there was any consideration and acknowledgment that the level of funding for this year would impact and require a c11rtailment or would not allow expansion of student enrolment at the universities? HON. J. STORIE: No, Mr. Chairperson, I don 't believe that was a formal consideration . As I've indicated , I don't think that is a necessity . Various universities have responded in various ways to the lack of substantial increases in funding .

I point out to the member that there have been increases every year ; some would say an adequate increase this year. I would like to think that while the f1 levels of support have not been generous , that they have been adequate to allow the universities to cope with their requirements . MA. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman , the grant , when it was in itially announced, which basically dealt with approximately slightly less than a 4 percent operational grant to the university, because in the init ial announcement that was made, there was a sort of grossing-up figure dealing with capital and some special type programmings .

But the core in all of this is the amount of money that is paid to sustain the university , in other words , its operating grant . I believe the president of the University of Manitoba said that was not a great solution , but at least it would allow them to stay static or maintain the status quo . But then the implications of the provincial Budget removed just shy of some $2 mill ion that was the flow through to the university.

When the amount of money, the funding, to the universities was considered , was there a consideration that there would be a reduction IJ.: in the funds because there was going to be additional 'It taxes or charges imposed on the institutions? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, as the member knows, the announcement was made some time before the Budget was delivered on March 16. While I guess it would be fair to anticipate that some of the tax changes may have impacted upon it, those dec isions had not been finalized at that point.

The announcement that was given to indicate level of support to universities was done on the basis of the spending leve ls appropriate for the year. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman , according to the Estimates, approximately $7.5 million was to flow through to the universities by way of grants . A l ion 's share of that would be going to the University of Manitoba . Well, according to the Univers ity of Manitoba Digest , they would lose $1 .849 million because of the se new increases : $1 .14 million in payroll taxes , anoth er $580,000 provincial sales tax , and the incr ease in 2040

Thursday, 14 May, 1987 electric power rates of some $122,000, which I believe the university picks up around $4 million or $5 million of the $7.5 million. Well, in effect, you don't quite take half of that back . It strikes me that there must have been some implication or some consideration at the time the Budget was set that it would have on the institutions of the University of Manitoba because the grant was not significant. As the president of the university said, at best, they could hold their own.

It was a holding pattern and then to remove almost $1.9 million in taxes does not put them in a very good position to even hold their own. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I recognize that at the universities I guess numbers are based not only on their own operating but also on research. So the numbers that they have given that I have received actually, or seen from the universities, are substantially less than the ones the member is quoting from.

That, I believe, is based on their total budget, not just the operating budget at the university, but their entire research budget, which is funded from other sources other than the Provincial Government. But I think I've said already that the final decisions, in terms of the budget , had not been made; so the implications were not, at that point, readily knowable. MR. C. BIRT: Mr.

Chairman, the Cabinet considered ' the implications of certain grants , or the sizes of the grants, when it considered the budget funding of'85- I 86, and in it, they looked at enro lment limitations , the · number of courses that may have to be reduced, 1 perhaps cut back in some facilities, long waiting lines · or a great number of people wanting to get into a limited space.

I can't believe th at the Universitiesy Grants Commi ssio n would not understand totally the impact of 4.7 percent increase to the universities and some consideration as to what costs would be, because, at best, the funding, in its fullest before any taxes were taken away, it was a standpat budget and of course they've got increases for salary and other costs that went up. Some of them were federal budget, some of them were just in straight operational things. So that standpat situation would still have an impact.

Did the Universities Grants Commission or the government consider what impact that its standpat budget's increase would have on the ability of the universities to provide services at the university level? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I'm reminded by the executive director of the Universities Grants Commission, that enrolments grew substantially in the early Eighties, and actually, what we've seen more recently in the last coup le of years have been small reductions in enrolment, No. 1.

No. 2, the answer is no and I think I've explained that universities have many ways of adjusting their own operations to ensure that there are a few, if any, problems of accessibility. I think universities, to give them credit, have done a good job in dealing with the circumstances of constrained finances. I have said to the universities, in all candidness, that I will accept the argument that we have not provided adequate funding to the universities.

I won't accept the argument that we haven't been fair. 2041 There are substantially two different propositions, and the fact of the matter is, that on a national basis we are very generous to our univers ities, on a per capita basis and on many other basis; and our universities are also cognizan t of what is going on in other jurisd ictions and they could look to what's happening in Saskatchewan or Alberta or B.C. or Quebec, or many other areas ; not only this year but a history of underfunding that has been difficult, to say the least , for those institutions.

So I think that when the president of the University of Manitoba says that the 4.7 percent operating increase this year is basically a standpat position ; that's a far super ior position than many of the other presidents of universities across the country find themselves in. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, I think the students and university presidents take cold comfort as to what is happening in other parts of the country. The key is here in Manitoba and what priority the province gives to higher education.

In the'85-86 subm ission for funding to Cabinet, they talk about enrolment limitations that have been imposed at the University of Winnipeg and the University of Manitoba , because current funding does not permit acceptance of more students. Universities indicate that more than 500 students attempted to register for courses, but were unable to do so for lack of space. Most faculties now have enrolment limits. Further, several course offerings have been postponed.

Should this practice continue, growing numbers of qualified high school graduates as well as adults will be denied an opportunity to pursue a university education. This could present a serious problem for the government. Now we're talking about funding for'85-86. Here we are in '87-88 fiscal year, that same submission to Cabinet dealt with the various options of percentage increase in operating to the universities, one was 2 percent , 1 percent, zero. The 2 percent option says that it would allow the universities to meet approximately two-thirds of the salary cost associated with progress through the ranks.

Of the professors it would reduce the number of layoffs the university would be required to make and it would reduce the impact on student population through fewer course reductions and a smaller increase in fees. It says that in'84-85, 500 to 600 qualified students were turned away from universities, as they were unable to register, and that was just the funding from two years ago .

Keeping in mind that the Minister presented his budget through the Universities Grants Commission, also that the Minister is part of the Cabinet that decided what levels of taxation should be imposed; did the Minister do an analysis of what the impact of the taxes would have, or just the operating grant being held at just under 4 percent for the university, as to the number of layoffs that may occur , the number of courses that might have to be curtailed , or in fact the number of students who could not get into the university? HON. J. STORIE: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I'm not sure of the document the member is quoting from . He referenced to the fact that 500 students might not be able to pick up specific courses . Courses don 't mean that the individual isn 't enrolled in the university; it

Thursday, 14 May, 1987 simply means that because of limitations , and, that is, that they can't have four professors to teach introductory sociology, they have three courses and the students have to choose some other course. I'm told that the University of Manitoba has had no such problems, although each of the universities hav e reduced the courses that they 're offering . I've said to the universities that we're all in this together . The fact of the matter is that we have increased funding by 47 percent since 1982.

If you took that out to the average person in the street and said , does that sound like underfunding, I think the answer would be no. That sounds pretty reasonable. The problems universities face are problems that are shared with large institutions. They have their own inflation rate. All I can suggest , and have suggested, is that we will try and provide modest levels of increase in funding . It's up to the institutions to find creative ways of living within those means, and I have no apologies to make for the funding levels that we've provided.

If I compare them to what is being offered to universities in othe r provinces, ours looks remarkably good. The concern s that are raised in the submission are legitimate concerns. We would have liked to have been able to provide a 10 percent increase to universities this year. Unfortunately the pie can only be sliced in so many pieces . MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, the reference material that I am referring to is the Cabinet Submission for'85- 86 by the Minister to Cabinet for consideration of funding for that year.

They looked at the various options and they knew that with the policies they were following, that the university was being cut back substantially and that the amount of programs that could be offered were being reduced; and also, that the number of people who wanted to access the situation were being denied because there was just nothing available for them, as far as space was concerned, or space in the areas of their interest. Now we've gone two years later and , at best , the operating grant is about 2 percent for this year.

Has the Universities Grants Commission done an analysis of what the impact be on the universities, if they do not get at least their full funding that the Minister offered them back in January of this year? HON. J. STORIE: Well, Mr. Chairperson, I meet with the presidents of the universities; in fact I spoke with the president of the University of Manitoba last night. I also spoke with the president of Brandon University last night . I spoke with the president of the University of Winnipeg on Friday last.

I keep in touch with those individuals, and I'm not aware of any overriding concern they have about the programs that they 're able to offer this year. Clearly they would like more money . I don't know any institution that 's operating universities and operating in Canada that wouldn't like more money . I think there's some recognition that the government has done the best it can. In terms of the additional cost that universities face this year because of exceptional circumstances , circumstances beyond their control; I've indicated that we are looking at some adjustment to base .

I think the university presidents have taken those words as encouragement and are continuing to operate , using the substantial additional resources they did receive this year. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman , I think the Minister 's words would be acceptable or would go a long way if the university was in a static situation.

Unfortunately , the university is not in a static situation and to say that they've had a a 42 percent increase in funding, which is at least the level of inf lation over the last number of years, is cold comfort because the simple fact is that the number of people attending the university has been increasing .

Now granted the universities have got their own particular inflationary costs because of equipment or chemicals or whatever , but we're not just dealing with we've maintained the cost of living increases; we're talking about an increasing number of people going to facilities who, for a variety of reasons , have had their resources reduced. In fact, if one looks at the Minister 's educational budget from'81-82, I believe university funding represented about 25 percent of the total educational funding in that particular year; and it has dropped now below from about 22 percent or 23 percent for the last fiscal year.

So we've seen a decline in commitment of dollars and in commitment of priori ties to the university , because 2 percentage points of the total educational budget is a very significant impact and of course the universities have been feeling that. The key here is just not to match inflation.

The important thing here is to try and reverse the trend of reduction of incomes to the universities, so that they can get on with the job that they 're supposed to and, quite frankly, the Minister may be talking to the various presidents of the universities; but when one looks at the correspondence sent out by the presidents, their comments in the press, their comments in letters to the editors; they're anything but pleased with what the priority that this government is giving to post-secondary education; namely, university funding, because without money to do an adequate job, we all suffer .

There have been a number of stories over the past that says our good teachers are leaving . We're not being able to provide the services to young Manitobans, so I take cold comfort in the comments of the Minister that we're going to give them modest levels of funding. I think it has to take a little more courage and a little more leadership than to say, we're going to settle just for modest levels of funding increases, because , quite frankly, I think we've got some major problems on our hands at the university .

Some of them may be created by themselves, but some of them have been created by government or governments; and I think we need some leadership shown , just to say that we're going to standpat, let them look after their own thing is not the answer, because a lot of policies that are put into place that affect the university are government driven; such as sales tax, such as an early retirement or no retirement , such as cost of elect ricity .

It goes on and on and on like this, so the governmen t just can't say that we're going to give them a modest increase and then walk away from it, because I, quite frankly, think it's an abdication of responsibility and really doesn 't show any leadership . HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, the member is absolutely right . Governments do obviously make 2042

Thursday, 14 May, 1987 decis ions from time-to-time that affect universities and their ability to function . Regardless of the fact that the percentage has changed in terms of the total proportion of educational spending, the fact is tha t a 47 percent inc rease is a significant increase, better than, I would say, most other provinces. The fact is that we are not the only government that impact s upon what universities are doing .

The membe r and I have had opp ortunity on previou s occasions to discuss the EPF funding changes, which the Federal Government decided, in a unilateral way, to change, which impacts on our ability to fund universities significantly. The Federal Government has changed some of the rules of the games in terms of research fun ding, which impact upon universities significantly ; not to mention all of the other budgetary issues which impact upon universiti es.

We certainly would be more than happy to go to any stage in the province and compare our reco rd of fundi ng with what happened between 1977 and 198 1, when ano ther government was in power and had an opportunity to deal with the problems at the university. I remind the member that thi s year we introd uced in the budget a $20 million University Development Fund, which is going to redress, hopefully , some of the long­ term problems that universiti es are now havin g to face; and they resu lt from actions, some of which occurred when the Conservat ive Government was in, in Manitoba, in 1977-81 .

There were no major capital projects during those years . There was a big cut in miscellaneous capital, down to $1 million at one point. The increases to universities were substantially below inflation. Thos e also have a cumulat ive effect , and we have had to deal with those problems , and the increases that went to universities in the first few years of this government were substantially beyond inflation , and inflat ion was at a significant rate . We're talking about increa ses of 13 perce nt and 16 per cent. So you know, we're not unaware of the problems tha t universities face.

I think it's a little bit inappropriate to suggest that somehow we have n't tried to address those problems; and we have in this year 's budget as well, by virtue of the $20 million University Development Fund. MR. C. BIRT: It's interesting that the Minister refers to the EPF Program. Quoting fro m the University of Manitoba Digest Bulletin, states that, according to the latest federal estimates, Established Program Funding transfer s total $5 billion-plus for 1987-88 .

I'll read on: " Manitoba's share of the '87-88 amounts to $2.13.3 millio n, an increas e of 5.4 percent over last year." Now , in theory, one-third of that used to go to Education and two-thirds to Health, but as we've seen ov~r the period of time, the governments take that as a pool grant and they use it as they see fit .

So the Minis ter is not quite correct in the amount of transfer payments that he's making reference to, because there has been an increase in tha t program to t he province th is year of 5.4 percent ; yet the operational grant portion of the funding was only about 4 perce nt; with the removal of about 1.8 percent in taxes , we're going to look at maybe 2 percent or 3 percent . So quite frankly, the Minister is not passing on the revenue from the Federal Government to the universities. They must be diverting it for their own use internall y.

So quite frankly, when the Minister talks about doing wonderful things for the university , it rings hollow , because he's trying to put some blame on federal transfer payments. It just won 't wash, because the facts here ind icate that there was a 5.4 percent increase in the parti cular funds that the Minister was referring to . So if there is a shortfall at the univers ities - and there is - they 've been neglected and they've had to do a fair amount of belt tightening over the years - it rests with this Minister and his predecess or. HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, I get a litt le annoyed at the comments from the Member for Fort Garry because he is in possession of the facts. I have sent him a copy of lette rs that I've sent to stu dents in this province, expl aining that what the member 's suggest ing is hogw ash; and I've invited the member or any other member of the conservative caucus or member of the federal conservative caucus to come in and listen to the facts , and the facts don't support that partic ular contention.

There is a long history to those discussions, and I believe the member 's in possession of correspondence, which outlines, very clearly, the facts of the matter and there is no diversion. The fact is that the arbitrary nature in which the Federal Government determines what portion of spending will go to what act ivity has been a matter of contention and disag reeme nt by all provinces and the Feder al Governme nt for some time.

There can be no denying that the Fede ral Government, unilaterally , decided to change the EPF arrangements between the Federal Govern ment and the provinces in a negative way, which impacts upon our ability to fund health and post-secondary education.

Fortunately , the Secretary of State is somewhat more enlightened than his predecessors and has now indicated that, yes , there are substantial problems with the way that post-secondary education spending is reported , and has agreed to change; in fact, allowed the provinces, this year, to submit appendices to the report tabled in the House of Commons dealing with post-secondary expenditures, so that people will be aware of the true facts of the way prov inces spend both health and post-secondary dollars. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, the increase in EPF funding to this province for this coming year is 5.4 percent.

Why don 't we see a similar increase to the univer sities? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I believe that not all EPF dollars go to education. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, then I take it that the Minister and his Cabinet colleagues are making an arbitrary decision, on how the money that is flowing through under EPF formulas to the Province of Manitoba are being allocated and, as a result, the universities are being short-changed. HON. J. STORIE: I don't think it's arbitrary at all, nor is it arbitrary in any other province where the experience is virtually identical.

The propor tio nate share of Education versus Health in all of the provinces has changed dramatically since 1976-77 when the program was established, the criteria were established . 2043

Thursday, 14 May, 1987 Since that time, the experience in every province has been that the proportionate share that goes to Health has increased, and that fact has been raised and pointed out to the Federal Government for many years by many different governments. The split that they refer to is arbitrary; it makes their numbers look good for Education and poor for Health. If you take the overall look at what has happened to EPF funding and transfers from the Federal Government, you find that what used to be 50-50 will end up 36-64 by the year 1990-91.

Some provinces, perhaps those like Ontario, once Alberta, can handle that difference. I think it was discouraging, and I know that the university community and many of the people involved in the Health and Higher Education Coalition found it discouraging that members opposite didn't recogni ze the position - Manitoba and other small provinces - that health care and our university community were being put in by those changes. It was a time for action and the membe rs opposi te had an opportunity to voice their concerns and we didn't hear anything, frankly. MR. C. BIRT: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister still hasn't addressed why the increase to funding to the universities this year isn 't at least 5 percent or better, because the transfer of funds to him through the EPF this year is at least 5.4 percent . We're looking at something considerably less than 4 percent flowing through to the universities. So all I can say is that he is taking an arbitrary approach to the funds that are fi°owing from the Federal Government into the province . And why are they being diverted?

Why aren't they being targeted to the universities, at least, that the universities can share the economic benefits that are flowing or being created in this province to the same extent that other departments or institutions are in the government? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, the total increase in EPF transfers amounted to some $12 million this year, I am told. The universities received an increase of $9 million - that's cash increase, EPF. Mr.

Chairperson, the obvious question is if the Federal Government was interested in 50-50 funding, then we would obviously need substantially more money when you consider that the province put in an additional $9 million to the universities , additional dollars to our post­ secondary institutions, additional dollars for the funding of our senior matriculation year. If you consider that we added $118 million to the health care budget this year, the amount of money that we received by way of increase is insignificant and it reflects a reduction of the federal original obligation and, frankly, we resent it.

The fact is also - and the member hasn't referred to the fact - that equalization payments are down by some $54 million on a gross basis, some $54 million down . So we're not in a net positive position because of transfers from the Federal Government and it simply makes it more difficult to cope . We could have done what Alberta did and said, well, it's tough beans, a 3 percent decrease. We said no, a 5.2 percen t increase. I think th at' s setting the right priorities . MR. C.

BIRT: Is the Minister suggesting that because the transfer payments to the province have reduced 2044 in another category, that they're now diverting funds from EPF, which was for Education and Health services , and monies are being diverted in other areas and are not being targeted through to the institutions? HON. J. STORIE: Now that's one of the most twisted pieces of logic I've ever seen. I don't know whether the member's been listening, but the fact is that we got an additional $12 million , but the additional fact is that we spent an additional $127 mill ion.

If that 's diverting some way, I don't know how the member defines diverting. We have spent additional provincial resourc es at a time when the province could have used some additional support from the Federal Government; in fact, believed that it was entitled to it; in fact, statutorily, was entitled to it until the Federal Government unilaterally changed its obligations. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, the funds that are targeted from the Federal Government to post-secondary education increase . . . HON. J. STORIE: Ther e are no such things. MR. C.

BIRT: ... and that percentage of increase , the size was not passed through the universities. Why wasn't it? HON. J. STORIE : Mr. Chairperson , that is a totally spurious argument. There is no such designation. None of the provinces in this country accept the arbitrary breakdown of support . It has never been agreed to. It reflected only the circumstances when the program was introduced in 1976-77 .

History has changed those facts , and the Federal Government , and apparently the Member for Fort Garry, continues to use those arbitrary , inaccurate, unsubstantiated pieces of information to build a case which is totally constructed of straw or perhaps horse manure. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, what are the Established Program Fundings for? Why don't we just refer to it as a straight grant then from the Federal Government? HON. J. STORIE: They are for health and post­ secondary education together.

At one point there was 50-50 funding; and by the end of 1990-91, there will be 36 percent coming from our federal counterparts and 64 percent from the Provin cia l Government. MR. C. BIRT: Is the Minister contemplating making an announcement very shortly about the financial situation at the universities? He said that he was going to review it and would be making some comments soon. Could the Minister be more specific? HON. J. STORIE: No, I can only indicate that the Unive rsities Grants Commission has had its meetings and is making some recommendations in terms of additions to the base.

I hope that they will reflect some of the costs that universities have incurred over the past year or so, or past few years, in terms of additional cost s. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, in the budget document that the Minister of Finance tabled and made referenc e

Thursday, 14 May, 1987 to in the House , there was reference made to a $20 million program for the universities . I don 't see any reference to it in the Estimates . Is there anything there for this particular fiscal year? HON. J. STORIE : Yes, Mr. Chairperson, the cash flow will begin next April 1. This year, there is $1 million which has been identified as increase to the miscellaneous capital which will flow. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman , when I read the announcement and heard what the Ministe r said , I thought it was $20 million that was brand new being committed to the universities.

Is he now saying that, of that $20 million, $1 million which there was an increase in the discretionary capital funding, if that's the correct word . It was increased from $4.4 million to $5.4 million . Of that $20 million announced , is $1 m illion being applied to this discretionary capital funding? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson , that $1 million was a 25-percent increase over the previous year, and I guess it's yet to be determined whether in fact it will rema in, which would make the fund $24 million or $25 million . MR. C. BIRT: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister of Finance announced the $20 million program with the $1 million increa se in the discretionary capital funding . Does that mean that there is only $19 million left of that $20 million program that was announced in the Budget? HON . J. STORIE : Currently, without additional resources being put in or that additional miscellaneous capital being continued . As I said , that has yet to be determined. So it could be $20 or $24 million , depending on, I guess , future circumstances . MR. C. BIRT: Mr.

Chairman , is it possible, from what the Minister has said, that the discretionary capital allocation that has been going to the universities over the past few years then will be cancelled and something else put into its place? HON. J. STORIE : No, Mr. Chairperson, I don't foresee that. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, the so-called $20 million fund , was it not to be targeted for a specific fund raising program that the universities were going into? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson , partly that's.true .

Of course, discussions have gone on subsequent to the Budget announcement with the universities about how that money will in fact be allocated between the institutions and how it will be used: (

a) to support their fund-raising activities; (

b) how it will be used to support capital projects or renovations; and (

c) how it might be used to help the universities provide major equipment purchases and major additional resource purchases . MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, the limited information that came out about this $20 million , which I believe was to be phased in over four or five years, one could take the current limited or small discretion ary capital allowance that the university has, which has been running at roughly $4 million for the last couple of years going up to $5.4 million this year. You could simply say that it would be that program then just carri ed through .

Are we tal king about new capital dollars or are we talking about just the continuation of thi s small discretionar y capital fund? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, we're talking about new fund s in addition to what has traditionally been identified as miscellaneous capital. MR. C. BIRT: The reason I ask is the Minister said we could easily call it a $24 million capital fund. I'm wondering, is it his intention then to roll it into that line in the capital grants to universities which we're showing at $5.4 this year. Would it then be $6 million to $8 million a year?

Is that the intention , or are we talking about a special fund that has nothing to do with the miscellaneous capital program , in other words, a special fund all unto itself? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, there will be a relationship, depending eventually on how the fund is used . As I've said, it will be used for a variety of capital purposes .

The reference to the $24 million was an indication that the additional million that was added to the base , if you will, of the miscellaneous capital of the previous year may in fact remain, depending on I guess budget decisions in the subsequent years which would add to the total amount of additional money that was put in, which would be above and beyond the $4 million that the member referenced last year for a part of miscellaneous capital. MR. C. BIRT: Mr.

Chairman, I guess I want to make sure that we're talking about some new capital money going to the university, and we're not trying to get credit for something that is going to flow through or be there in any event. Capital programs, you can make a commitment and provide them on an annual basis or however you're going to do it.

Is there going to be a specific plan put into place by the government or the Universities Grants Commission that the universities can then look to this $20 million or $19 million now as additional funds over and above the ordinary operating grants with whatever increase they may or may not get, plus the limited capital fund that they've been used to. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I can only indicate that, yes, that's the intention . MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, is it to be tied to fund raising solely, the Minister made reference to it?

In other words, is the money to be some sort of incentive matching grant to help them raise additional funds? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, where that's possible. It may in fact not be possible in all cases . I think the universities have indicated that some projects have more sex appeal in terms of fund-raising efforts than others . 2045

Thursday, 14 May, 1987 I think our interest in providing additional resou rces is to make sure that those things which are critical are in fact done and to provide additional resources to make sure the universities can do that. Now whether that's restructuring some pillars or doing some renovations, those kinds of things sometimes are difficult to develop a theme around which one can raise funds. So to the extent that it's possible, we will be encouraging the universities to look for ways of getting matching dollars, but that may not be possible in all instances and we're not holding that as a hard and fast rule.

Obviously, some institutions have more scope in terms of fund raising than others as well, so it may be different for different institutions . MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, is there a formula that is in place or will be put into place as to what institution will get what percentage, because you've got basically your four institutions, three of them which are involved in a capital fund-raising drive: the University of Manitoba, $40-odd million; the University of Winnipeg, I think it's around $16 million; I believe Brandon University is trying to do something about $5 million; and I don't know ii the St.

Boniface College is into one or not. So is this going to be on a prorated basis? HON. J. STORIE: I don't know if I would say it would be on a prorated basis. There are discussions and negotiations going on. It will be determined, I guess, by the plans of the university, their ability to fund raise, a number of different factors, but there will be some announcement when the final allocation and time­ tabling of that allocation is determined. MR. C.

BIRT: There is always the shopping list provided by universities relating to new buildings or additions to buildings , and that depends on government 's ability to finance these things or, depending on what the Universities Grants Commission says, whether or not they are needed or when they should be phased in. Is it the intention to coordinate these funds in some sort of design or capital-building program or is it merely to be used for - and I use this in a very general sense - a refurbishing thing? I think the Minister touched on upgrading and equipment and things like this.

I mean, what's the thrust of this fund going to be used for? HON. J. STORIE: I think I trieq to sort of outline the scope of what the funds might be used for. I've indicated that it may be a major purchase of equipment. It may be renovation upgrade. It may be capital projects which are perhaps targeted for fund raising. MR. C. BIRT: What's the thrust of this fund going to be used for? HON. J. STORIE: I think I tried to sort of outline the scope of what the funds might be used for. I've indicated that it may ease your purchase, perhaps targeted for fund raising. So it's a utility fund .

It recognizes that the universities have some miscellaneous capital requirements that need to be addressed. We are trying to structure in a way that meets the unique needs of each of the institutions. Brandon Univ ersi ty, for example, is relatively blessed with fairly new buildings . That's not true of the University of Manitoba and , t o a lesser extent, the University of Winnipeg. So we're trying to match it to the individual needs of the institution. I think that has been relatively well received. MR. C.

BIRT: I believe in the past the universities that have gone on capital fund-raising drives and the governments of the various days have gone into some sort of matching grant formula . I think it's varied from time to time. I believe at the universities, once that money was in their till, they could do with it as they saw fit. Now is this going to be discretionary funding to the university or, this $20 million fund , is it going .-to be sort of controlled as to where it goes by the Universities Grants Fund .

I realize there may be consultation with the universities, but in fact are they going to start using it to either refurbish buildings or buy equipment , or is it just going to be in a bank account that the universities basically can use as they see lit? HON. J. STORIE: No, Mr. Chairperson, the intent is to identify the purposes to which that fund will be put, the basis on which those funds will be used in terms of whether they are matching dollars or whatever . So it will be fairly structured, but it will be based on issues that the universities have raised , needs that the universities have .

So it will be fairly structured . MR. C. BIRT: The funds that the universities raise through their capital campaigns , are they unrestricted as to how they spend it, or will there be some control or direction put on how those funds are spent by the Universities Grants Commission? HON. J. STORIE: No, Mr. Chairperson, the money that the universities raise through their own fund -raising efforts would be spent in accordance with the wishes of the board of governors and the administration. MR. C.

BIRT: There is reference in a March letter by the president of the University of Manitoba about the cost of funding an early retirement program. What is that program, and what are the costs that they are referring to? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, that refers to the buy-out costs that the university incurs and I guess the saving that may in fact materialize when they hire someone at a lower salary rate , so that someone is offered some sort of retirement bonus . The savings that are incurred because of bringing someone in at a much reduced salary saves the university over the long term . MR. C. BIRT: Mr.

Chairman, the president makes special note of the cost of the funding of an early retirement. Is it something that's shared between government and the university, or is it solely a cost of the university? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I guess it's shared to the extent that it's paid out of the operating grant 2046

Thursday, 14 May, 1987 they get from the province , but decisions in terms of who is offered or whatever are made at the university level. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, do we know roughly what the costs were, say, for last year or this year in that retirement program? HON. J. STORIE: No, Mr. Chairperson, we don't know. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, I have a couple more questions in the university area , but one of my colleagues who must leave early would like to ask questions on the Capital portion of the Estimates . Do you have staff here available that he could ask the questions? HON. J.

STORIE: Yes, no problem at all. Go ahead . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Thank you very much for your consideration , Mr. Chairman. The Minister received a letter dated March 9 from the Strathmillan Teachers and Parents Association of the Strathmillan Elementary School in my constituency , and it's regarding the construction of the gymnasium on that school. In 1985, there was a presentation or a request made to expand the gymnasium.

In 1986, there was a request made and then there was a brief presented after the request was turned down to the board explaining the need for the expansion of the gymnasium. Then they've made a request now again in 1987. This school is a mainstream school as far as kindergarten is concerned , and will be a mainstream school in higher grades as the program moves along. It's the smallest gym in the whole of the division . When the school was built , there weren't that many children , and then the district grew up and the school was expanded.

They have a large enrolment at the present time, and the gymnasium just does not suit the needs of the community . When they have a concert or anything with parents involved, they have to put TV monitors in other rooms of the school so that they can accommodate the parents and many of the students when they have some activity on. As a matter of fact , they can't get all of the students in the gymnasium if they want to do something which is a project where the whole school is working together .

They feel that the community will benefit and the children will benefit certainly from the point of view that this school will be a mainstream school in the future . The chairman , Mr. Frye of the Teachers and Parents Association , believes that consideration should really be given to this request this year. I'd like to ask the Minister if he has made any inquiries after receiving the letter from the Strathmillan Teachers and Parents Association and if he has any information he could give me on it? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, a letter has been drafted in reply to that letter .

I can tell the member that the second phase of that project, which is the gymnasium, has been approved and is part of the $81 million that was announced some two or three weeks ago. It's anticipated that the project will be commencing this year and, hopefully , concluding this year as. well. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and I thank the Minister for considering the request of the people . I'm sure the news that you just gave me at the present time will be very welcome. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Fort Garry . MR. C. BIRT: Mr.

Chairman , the Minister has made some comments, publicly, from time to time , in the role of the Universities Grants Comm ission and he's always indicated that he's going to strengthen it and change it. Will the Minister be introducing new legislation into this Session that will affect the function or direction or how the Universities Grants Commission will opera te? HON. J. STORIE: No, Mr. Chairperson. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, will the change or direction of the Universities Grants Commiss ion then be done by administative order, or how is the change or direction to come about? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson , the change - although it is still possible that at some future date that the act will be changed - I think that on review , the Universities Grants Commission has considerable authority and that what I have done, along with my cabinet colleagues, is attempted to define a new mandate - a much more pro -active mandate - for the Universities Grants Commission; something that has been encouraged by the universities themselves, who want to be assured that there is a better understanding, a good understanding of their program requirements, the obstacles they face in budgeting.

There's an understanding that there needs to be a better communication, a better establishment of mutual goals, a better coordination between universities in terms of program offerings, those kinds of things . The executive director of the Universities Grants Commission is now pursuing discussions on many different fronts, dealing with many of the issues that we have discussed here today actually. So, we've done a couple of things, specifically. As the member knows, the previous Deputy Minister was chairperson of the Universities Grants Commission, which linked very closely the department and the Commission.

Since assuming responsibility for Education, the Deputy Minister is no longer chair of the Commission; in fact the chair is a person from outside the department. With the new mandate of the Commission , I expect that there will be significant benefits for the department and myself and my Cabinet colleagues , in terms of understanding the university 's problems.

But I think there'll be significant benefits for the universities as well, because they need to use the Commission as a sounding board for ideas, proposals as well, to the extent there's a good understanding of their responsibilities and mission, they can provide that function . 2047

Thursday, 14 May, 1987 MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, is this then a policy development or directive by the government to the Universities Grants Commission, or is it something that's they're going to put in the legislation of some new code or format, or is it going to be by new regulations adopted by them. How is this new direction going to take place? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, the new direction is taking place and will take place because of direction from the Minister and Cabinet.

I have already referred issues to the Universities Grants Commission and I made the universities aware of the increased importance which we are attaching to the role of the Commission and their liaison role with the universities . MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, the Minister made reference to making the Commission a much more pro­ active - I think that's the phrase he used - organization.

Is it the intention of the Commission then to look at how the universities function, because in the past they've been traditionally a financing body that deals with the financial request, priorizes them, and submits them to the Cabinet; and, in turn, authorizes the expansion of either certain facilities or faculties or adding new programs at the universities.

Are we now talking about a much more hands-on policy guidance of day to day - maybe not day-to-day operation - but of framework in which the universities would be looking at; and given the fact that we've got four universities in a population of just 1 million Manitobans, will it then be saying you can offer certain courses and you can 't, but that you can offer these courses; in other words maybe rationalizing the system a bit? HON. J. STORIE: Well, Mr. Chairperson, to some extent, the Universities Grants Commission always did play that role. MR. C. BIRT: But very limited, very limited. HON. J.

STORIE: I agree with the member, that it was limited and that will certainly increase; that's not only at the insistence of the government , but I think it's also at the request of the institutions themselves. I think no one wants to see unnecessary duplication in a time of scarce resources . Because of the greater involvement, ihis will allow for a closer scrutiny of the programming emphasis and the programming change at the universities.

I don't see that as being too directive, however I think it's simply a matter of informing and receiving information and working together to come to some mutually responsible conclusions . MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, funding in direction of the universities is always a major part, but it is, I guess, how the universities function internally . Not that I want to cast any aspersions on the people and the institutions, but sometimes the way of doing thing perhaps aren't the most economical a way or perhaps a better way; or are we getting the best value for our scarce resource dollar.

Sometimes it takes an objective observer to say, now look, you seem to be going the wrong way in this area or maybe knocking a couple of heads together might do it or something like this . In other words , it really becomes - I guess the thing that I want to ask is: Is the Commission going to play much more in a planning direction role and leaving the day-to-day affairs, much like the Department of Education does to school divisions, but it has a very large role to play in policy guidelines and how it's functioning .

I know the universities always guard their autonomy with great vigour and their institutions under themselves , just you know , send this money and I don't mean it in an facetious sense , but sometimes perhaps a little external guidance or planning might make a system work a little better . Is this the direction the Minister is looking to, for this sort of expanded policy role for the Universities Grants Commission? HON. J. STORIE: I can only say yes.

The member has summarized exactly what I feel that the new role might accomplish ; and I agree with the member and he's free to cast " asparagus" on whoever he wants. The fact is that sometimes someone from the outside can take a second look and - surprise of all surprises - find a better way to do things that are more efficient or a rational way of doing things; and I think the Universities Grants Commission has always played that role to some extent.

I think what's interesting is that the universities were asking for an increasing level of interaction and increasing level of supervision and coordination themselves, so that's what makes it easy. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, you know, you talk to people in the universities and they freely admit that some of their problems are internal problems, they just don't know how to solve them .

Some of them are historical in nature ; some perhaps are personal in nature and you can't deal necessarily with those problems, but will then the Commission - and I know in theory this is what they're supposed to have been doing since it was created 10-15 years ago , maybe it's longer.

Looking at a coordinated effort of the universities - in other words, we're dealing with one university - we've got personalities in Brandon, we've got the University of Winnipeg, the University of Manitoba, they 're all doing their own specific thing and perhaps filling a niche ; but it's perhaps coordinating how these universities are going to deliver services and what services they're going to deliver.

It means more than just taking a short-term view, perhaps taking a long-term view of the province, of what these institutions will be offering, you know, where their focus will be, what resources will be allocated to them. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson , I think the member is quite right.

The critical issue is, I guess , long-term planning for the universities, and I think I can say with some degree of satisfaction that the universities - and I'm sure the universities are proud of their accomplishments over the last few years in terms of planning - each of the institutions now either has or is in the process of developing a longer-term perspective in terms of their

part icular role and mission; and each of them have identified an area of specialization , an area of excellence that they believe they have established or are likely to establish, or can establish, which will lead them into a unique role in terms of our institutions. 2048

Thursday, 14 May, 1987 I think that's something that needs to be encouraged and I think it makes sense not only for Manitoba in terms of the allocation of resources to our institutions, but I think it probably makes sense in terms of our abili ty to compete with other institutions to attract people from other parts of Canada and other parts of the world . MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, I have two more small areas but they are different from what I was just asking quest ions on. I believe the Member for Thompson has a question or two on a matter. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Thompson. MR. S.

ASHTON: I thank the Member for Fort Garry. What I wanted to do was just raise what I'm sure is something that's quite familiar to the Minister as a northern representative, and that is the general, I guess, view in certainly my area and other communities of the need for continued expansion of post-secondary opportunities particularly in the university area, as well as the community college area in Northern Manitoba. There has been quite a bit of progress in recent years.

I think that we've seen through the Bachelor of Social Work Program, the BUNTEP program, which I know have been discussed previously in Estimates, the Northern Nursing Program, a number of community college initiatives that we can offer education to nort herne rs right in Northern Manitoba. What I wanted to do was just report to the Minister that there have been a number of developments in my area which are of particular importance . In fact, a Citizens Committee has been formed to work towards greater post-secondary opportunities.

It's often been described as a northern university, although I think people are flexible in the format. I think such other models as a polytechnic model for Northern Manitoba should I think also receive consideration . In fact, that offers the advantage of being able to combine a variety of programs, including university programs, community college and other types of training opportunities. I want to indicate there's a fair amount of public interest and I've certainly seen that not just in Thompson but in other communities.

I know the Minister is fully aware of that himself from various meetings he's had with interested groups and individuals. What I really wanted to do was just focus in on what the rea l, I t hink, feeling is, and that is not that we need an institution . I think the real concern in Northern Manitoba is access. That I think has been misunderstood somewhat in some of the press reports in Southern Manitoba. People aren't looking for an institution/a university, or an institution/a community college. They're interested in what it results for them in the way of post-secondary access.

So I did want to report on that feeling, I think , that is growing in the North and the fact that northerners are working towards it themselves and perhaps recommend that we look quite seriously at continuing to expand university and community college access in the North through a post-secondary facility such as a polytechnic or some other flexible umbrella. As I said, I'm pleased to see the progress but I feel that we can move further ahead in the future . HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I couldn't agree more with many of the remarks from the Member for Thompson.

The fact is that I have had discussions with many people , including some of the organizations who originally start ed, I guess, thinking about the possibility of a northern university or a northern institution, not necessarily a university. The fact is that over the past five years the number of opportunities for northern students to receive paraprofessional and professio nal training have quadrupled and multiplied tenfold , and the member mentioned a couple of courses. I could go through a list which would be, I think , very impressive in terms of the kinds of training that is currently being offered .

I have had the good fortune to attend nursing graduations and integrated business skills graduation and civil technology. There are a tremendous number of people, northerners, graduating from programs that certainly have not in the past been available to them . But the fact is that we already have the core of an institution in Thompson which involves the activities of Keewatin Community College, Red River Community College, the University of Manitoba . I believe the member was in attendance when the Way-wah-tay-o Centre was opened in Thompson.

So what we need now is a body to integrate all of the activities of those institutions, to integrate the activites of the Inter-Universities North Program , the Continuing Education activities of all of the universities or community colleges , and I think we would be pleasantly surprised at the array of credit courses that could be offered in Northern Manitoba . What's missing at the current point, obviously, is the use of technology that exists for the delivery of those courses.

The University of Manitoba has telecourses or teleconferencing courses, video teleconferencing courses, a whole plethora of different ways of delivering courses