Volum e 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT MONDAY, MAY 3, 1976 Number 55 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER ,.

May 3, 1976 Tape no. 2381 Page 1 - 1IIW The House met at 2:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! The hon. Minister without Porfolio. MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I would like at this time to draw to the attention of the House the death of Magistrate Howard Strong. Magistrate Strong served with distinction in the Royal Navy during the Second World War, and after the war was appointed magistrate and served at various parts of Newfoundland, but most particularly he served, and I remember myself his serving in Corner Brook f~om 1949 until very recent years when he came into the Traffic Court in St.

John's. As I say, Magistrate Strong has had a most distinguished career, and he will be sorely missed not only by the magistracy in which he served so well,but the community as a whole. And certainly I would like to express on behalf of the government, and I am suue on behalf of all members of this House our regrets to his family, his wife Beth and to his children. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of my colleagues I would like to endorse the remarks by the Government House Leader, and I guess it will probably be in the form of a motion to his family.

So I would only be too happy to second that motion on behalf of my colleagues. And I read somewhere that Magistrate Strong was a humourous and a very fair man. I only had one occasion to appear before him on ~o traffic violations, and I blew my own case, and he was fair enough to split it evenly. He convicted me on one, and let me off on the other. So the man was a very fair man, Sir, and a very wise man. I am only too happy to endorse the remarks of the Government HoWle Leader. 6446

May 3, 1976 Tape no. 2381 Page 2 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Twillingate. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, the late Magistrate Strong was a very warm,personal friend of mine. I deeply grieve over his death, and I agree with the Government House Leader that Newfoundlnnd has lost a good son. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, it probably would be in order at this time to simply congratulate the House Leader upon his installation as Chancellor of the Eastern Newfoundland and Labrador Diocese of the Anglican Churchiin Newfoundland, and I am sure I say this on behalf of my colleagues on this side of the House. SCME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: TI1e hon. member for Twillingate. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr.

Speaker, I doubt that there ever was an occasion in the history of this House since 1832 when among us as members of the House were two hon. gentlemen who were chancellors in the Anglican Archdiocese and Diocese of Newfoundland, the hon. Government House Leader and Minister without Portfolio has been installed,and a few weeks ago the hon. member for St. John's East was installed as chancellor of another Anglican Diocese. And I would imagine that if hon. members behave themselves from now on, it can only be,I take it,because of the strong, very powerful ecclesiastical influence on us.

I am sure we are all proud and happy to have two of our colleagues as members of the people's House who are chancellors in the great Anglican Dioceses of our Province. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREHIER MOORES: ~1r. Speaker, on the same subject, 1ust a few weeks ago on two occasions, both at the time of the election of the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) and after that the election 6447

May 3, 1976 Tape no. 2381 Page 3- mw ~remier Moores. of the hon. House Leader to these two very a~gust positions, I passed on congratulations, and I suppose it was a bit of naivete at the time, because that was for the election as opposed to the installation,which is now the event. The fact that one could survive one and still make the second,with the record of the House itself,always makes one wonder if that was a possibility and probably this is the time for the congratulations of both these members. It is indeed, as the bon. member for Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwood) has said, to them and to us a day of credit, a day of pride, and a day of congratulations. And certainly on behalf of the government side of the House I would also like to add our congratulations, personal ·congratulations to these gentlemen. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Before calling ministeritl statements there are two groups of students I would like to welcome to the House. One is a group of twenty-one students from the District Vocational School at Bell Island, with their teacher Mr.

Pinsent;and the second is a group of twenty-nine students in secretarial science from the College of Trades and Technology in St. John's who are visiting .with their teacher, Miss Dorothy Halleran. And I know on behalf of all hon. members I extend to you a welcome to the people's House and the hope that your visit here will be interesting and enjoyable. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: We also have in the House of Assembly this afternoon representatives from the Community Council of Burlington, Green Bay, and they are Mr. Kelly, the Chairman of the Community Council,and two of the councillors, Mr.

Mills and Mr. Bartlett and to thase gentlemen also I extend a cordial welcome. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 6448

May 3, 1976 Tape no. 2381 Page 4 - mw ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile. HR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, I would like to put a question to the Government House Leader, the han. Minister without Portfolio. Would the hon. minister enlighten the House,or tell the House how he can be so certain that Mr. Morgan, who purchased the MacPherson property, how he can be so certain that Mr. Morgan had an option to purchase this land long before the Summer Games came on the carpet? How can he be so definite when there was nothing in the letter of reply to the minister that indicated that Mr.

Morgan did have an option? So how could the minister be so certain and so definite when he made his statement to the House on Friday? ltR. WELLS: The answer to that, Mr. Speaker, is that simply that I was told that that was so. I have been told that that is so both inside and outside the House. However, if there is any doubt about it or any concern to the hon. member, I would undertake to check it out formally, and see if that was so. MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: The hon. member for LaPoile on a supplementary. Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question, Sir. There is some doubt about it.

In fact somebody is lying, not the minister now, but somebody who provided the information is lying. And I would like for the minister to get a copy of the options on that property for the House, and to send for the documents as soon as possible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: As the han. gentleman is aware l'e is recognized now to ask a question - MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: HR. NEARY: Yes. but not to make statements on the general subject. No, Mr. Speaker, I understand. I am asking the minister if he would send for the documents and have the documents tabled in this !muse within forty-eight hours.

That is the option agreements that Mr. Uorgan had 6449

~fay 3, 1976 Tape 2382 PK - 1 on the Macpherson property, all the options that !1r. Morgan had. Can the minister have that in this House within forty-eight hours, because somebody is obviously lying? MR. WELLS: I do not know within forty-eight hours, Mr. Speaker, hut I can certainly request the options, yes. MR. NEARY: The minister will get the options? }ffi. ~~LLS: I will request the options, yes. l'!R. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the Province is in complete turmoil over the government stand on the price of oil, would the Premier or the House Leader indicate exactly what the ~overnment's policy is with respect to the increase of oil in view of the fact that the Premier is reserving judgment and the House Leader has come out and said that he is dead against such increases1 What is the government's policy on this since we have had two contradictory statements? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Obviously The Daily News is the, you know, the Bible of the bon. gentleman in this particular regard.

MR. ROWE: ---- And The Telegram as well. PREMIER MOORES: Or whoever. The fact is, Sir, as far as the oil and gas increase is concerned, we have taken a stand, as we have said many tilles before, that over a period of time from the Canadian national point of view that it makes sense for Canadian oil and gas prices to be the same and competitive with international oil and gas prices, and I said over the long-term. In the short-term,with the difficulties that this country is facing today, that is the stand we took woth Alberta, in support of Alberta just over a year ago.

In the meantime with the tremendous inflationary problem we have had, with the recessionary . problems we have had,we have said this should be done more gradually than was the case then. And any large increase would be wrong at this 6450

~lay 3, 197li Tape 2382 PK - 2 Premier Moores: time, hut we have to work towards that objective eventually. Before recognizing the han. member ft has been drawn to my attention that there is a third group of students visiting the Legislature this afternoon to whom I wish on behalf of all hen. members to extend the same welcome, and that is a group of students from North West River, There are nine of them, and their teachers Mr. Hanrahan and Mr. McLeod. SOME liON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ~m. SPEAKF.R: The hon. member for Baie Verte-White Bay. MR. T. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct to a question to the ~linister of Health, and it relates to the news release made hy him this morning. I wonder would the minister be a little bit more specific about the Prevention Advisory Committee on Health and Hanpower that he announced was established this morning, What specifically are its objectives and the aims of that Committee? tm. SPEAKER: The lion. Minister of Health. HON. H. COLLINS: Nr .

Speaker, as the name implies one of the main functions of the Committee will be to give direction to roe,and of course to the government,in terms of our manpower needs, what direction we should be taken in terms of specialities etc. that sort of thinr,. ' lR. SPF.AKER : A supplementary. ~ffi. RIDEOUT : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I wonder if the minister could tell the Rouse whether or not,according to the information he has right now. whether we have an undersupply or an oversupply in our health and manpower situation at the present time? 'ffi • SPF.AKER : The han. Minister of Health. - - ----- HR.

COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, there are areas of the Province where I would not say 1ve have an oversupply, but there are areas of the Province which are pretty well, to use a common term, pretty well doctored. There are other areas of the Province of course where we have had some difficulty in attracting doctors. Overall,on an average hasis,we still have, not a long way to go, but we do have 6451

May 3, 1976 Tape 2382 PK - 3 ~1r. Collins: some catching up to do. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile, and then I will recognize the for B?rgeo-Bay d'Espoir. }IR. NEARY: ------ Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister, I think it is the Minister of Industrial Development, and if the minister does not want to answer it, perhaps the Premier might answer it. I would li~e to know, or I would like for the House to know,what is happening in connection with the Pyramid Homes at Argentia~ Is it shutting down? Has the company gone into receivership or bankruptcy? Will it start up operation again?

Could the minister give us some information on the Pyramid Homes operation in Argentia? Is it finished? Is it going to keep working? Or what is going to happen to this industry? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Industrial Development. MR. J. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, Pyramid Homes is a private company that has established in Argentia,as the hen. member knows, with the co-operation from the Department of Industrial Development. The extent of supporting,there is not any financial support, but to indicate that we would be willing to assume responsibility if they were removed from the area.

The company is in a lot of difficulty. across the whole of the Canadian Continent at the moment, and we are getting a report some time this week about their plans but it does not look good at the present moment. It does not look good at the present moment for Pyramid Homes. 1-m. SMALLWOOD: It does not look good now? MR. LUNDRIGAN: It does not . Now I sho~ld not gc b:eyon.1 that., Hr. Speak-"lr., b!':c.:·IS{: it is a private company. They hnve made cer•:ain comment.s to us, t~ey h:Ne advise d us of their problems, <~nd we nre trying to work villl them,but there is not a good deal we can say at the present moment.

Now we have asked them for a complete rC'port on their problems. Anything we can do to help them we are quite willing to do it, hut it is a real serious problem, and I hope that the Board of 6452

Hay 3, l'l71i Tape 2382 PK - 4 fAr. Lund r-ig an: Oirector5 will decide to continue their operations. But I still have to advise that it does not look good. liP. .• NEARY: ------ l-Tell,I thank the hon. minister. A supplementary question then. \~ould the minister infonn the House how many E-mployees, hm> many workers,male and female, . are involved directly and indirectly with the Pyramid Home operation? ~m. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Industrial Development. 1m. J. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, I believe the work . force varied from eighty to over one hundred.

The last time I visited there would be six or seven weeks ago with the member, I would say there would be approximately one hundred people involved. They have turned out about one trailer per day,I believe,was their output. One of the pro'hlems they are claiming they had is the fact that the overhe:td was so hir;h, that is the fixed overhead costs for the productivity they have had in terms of the output. They could with the same overhead process and manufacture a considerable number more, and the market did not - MR. SMALLWOOD: ------- One trailer a day or one mobile home? HR. noODY: One mobile home. ------ ~m.

LUNDRIGAN: One mobile home per day. We have had some discussions with them. The department have been involved with them from day one as the member knows. I mn advised by my colleague to my right something I was not aware of that there ''as a small bit of an initial assistance given of to them, a very few thousands of dollars.

I think our aim basically was to help clear out the obstacles with the American Government at the time in leasing property, and I believe our commitment was jn the form of saying to them that in the event that they were not able to continue their operation t,here that we would have to assume, or we would as sume the responsibility in the event that they were forced to leave the facility premises. I will say that our advice is that their problems do not relate to the productivity of the work force in the area. I was concerned about that,because the attitude 6453

Hay 3, 1976 Tape 2382 PK - 5 Mr. Lundrigan: had been abroad that there was some lack of productivity, I have heard that rumour and comment. Their advice was that the work force is comparable with the work force in the other three plants they have across the country. I am not very happy to have to just announce that aspect of it because that is not very prositive when the company is fn danger of not continuing their operation. Perhaps I should not even announce that at this moment because really in fact it is not final and conclusive.

When the original move was made it was a two week close down, and the information seem to point to the fact that they were having an inventomy problem. We immediately sent off our people in the department to their parent company anr they investigated the problem and looked at the extent of their problem across the nation. They lost quite a bit of money last year across Canada in their four plants. The most serious losses were suffered in the Newfoundland operation.

They are looking at,assessing,all of their operations across the country, the four plants that they have and I could not comment on what their decisions will be. It is an internal thing. we:;have got no influence or control. We have got no authority. We cannot say to them you must continue. MR. NEARY: But you are entitled to the information. MR. LUNDRIGAN: We are certainly entitled to the information. And we have had from their managing director, I believe is his title, a good deal of information in rPcent days to indicate to us the extent of their problem. We have had formal communications from them.

Rut I feel a great deal of sadness to have to suggest that perhaps the extent of their problem might be more serious than we in fact knew when we started to investigate What we thought was a temporary layoff. I was advised about a week ago that we would in ten days receive an . official word from their Board of Directors as to what their firm plan was. I have not received that communication, I hope to receive it this week. And I am reluctant to have to say what I am saying today because I had hoped that we 6454

May 3, 1976 Tape 2382 PK - 6 'lr. I.undrigan: could have had a firm position of the company, but I do not feel I can be any more reluctant or continue to be reluctant in giving this information bearing in mind that the hon. member requested it. HR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, 6455

~'ay 3, 1976 'l'ape 2383 IB-1 l_'l2_,_ NF.~ f. further supplel!'entary, Sir.

In vie'!<' of the seriousness of the sHuat:lon at ftrr,entia - and the minister need not apolor:l ze hecause the people> are a'"are of it in the area anyway,it has been rumored for months now - but in view of the ser:lousness of the situation ~·ouJ (I the minister tel] the llouse what steps the goveornment H~ll take to establish one of these typical task forces that 1,•e saw, for :lnstance,in the case of Come By Chance,to deal with this sjtuation, to try to find alternatives, alternative employment, alternative industry, for the Argentia, for the Placentia area?

Will the rovernment be tak1n~ immediate action to set up some kind of a c0111mtt tee to deal •1:fth this situation? r-<r. SPEAKER: The han. ~'inister of Industrial ann 'lnraJ nevelopment. ''l'. LUNDf'ICAN: }'r. Speal<er, I am not sure if a task force is the approach that one could take to attract industry.

In recent dayF the l-':lnister of J':lnance,and the ~'inister of IntergovernmentaJ Affairs, ann the mel!'ber for the d:lstrict, my colleague who sits behind me,and officials of the departments involved hao fairly intensive meetings 1,•ith the aim of course to try and, first of all, resolve the proble!TI of administration at the Argentia Naval Base. That is one kind of a move that we are making.

There are three types of activities that we are pursuing as they relate to marine industries in the Province that I cannot indicate today because they are sti.ll only in the discussion stages and in the formative stages of development. T woulrl not want to I!lake any comments on these now, to try to snp.r;est to anybody in the area that we have any formal types of activity that can alleviate the problel!'s in Ar~entia. But T. can tell the hon. member and I can tell the hon.

Pomle that '"e h11ve realJy ~'orked hard :In governi!lent i.n tryinr, to deaJ 14:fth industry across the country and in the Prov:l .nce, to su!(pest tCl them that anvthinp, that ••e can do at all will be clone to fac:llitate the:lr estabJishjng :In the Argent:la area. ! hope that so~e t:l~e in the near future l·le will be in a position to be more defini .t:lve. The Prem.ier has been advised formally on some of the discussions '~<' e have 6456

""Y 3, 197fi 1':'lpe 2383 IB-2 '"'" af'd 1 t ; ~ too premature to make aT'y cmmnents on it but ~1e hope tn ;"tttract " t ypP of industry tl-:at "ill provjcle some stability to the cronC'I"Y nf thP ;>rea. T:fe reco!!J1ize :i.t is one of the bigrest challen~tes \ J P have in the PrC'vince. ~·r. ~l'eal<er ts th:ls a snpp]ementary? •'1'. ~EAI"V: Nn, Yonr llonour. t'T'. SPF.AY.ET': "'hen T. recornize the hon. member for Bnrpeo-Bay cl'Espo:!r. t'r. ~peaker, I have a question for the same Il'inister, the t'in:lst<>r of TndustriaJ nevelopment.

I put a ouestion to hil'1 on .~pdl 8 ,.,h:fch he undertook to answer for "'e and get the inform;>t1.on for me. I reminrl hi.l" of the questi.on anrl wonder no'~ if he has got the ans~'er. Tt relates to the freeze in. the Bay Bulls area, the land free?.e effective the ~ummer of 1973. I was wondering if the freeze H;os stHl :In effect. "oes the t"inister have the ans••er? I <lirl ask for the inform;ot:J.on. It has not been fo,..,.·•arclec:l to me :ot the present moment and T "'ill just have to hC"Ipe that he c:-\n h:'IVP a 11 ttl e bit of patience.

I realize I should pcrh11ps h.~ve h<1r' th<tt inform:otion awdlable. I raise(i it with the offic:lnls. "'he F.:'lster recess :!.ntervenefl. I diil raise it fl"lur nr five Clnys "'!'"· T h11ve not I'!Ot the info1"!11<!.tion but certa:lnly as a resu] t of his second questi .on I v7ill feel a r-ood deal more urp;ency in tryin~ tn rP.t ~ response for hi~. fi supplementary. '"' T t~1.J] a] lo•~ a supplementary. ' ':' ~NS: II s•tJ'pl ementary to the sru»e min :I ster.

J wonder also Pnul<l th,. l":fnjster. in<'licate to the House or undertake to f:!nd out for the House H"!">Pth<'r tl>e "PrnvincP~e:lther throur>h his own C!enartment or throu~h some nthE'r c:len, rtment,h;os hail any in,rn]ve!"ent .rith the ferleral Environment nepartment in connection with the pJanninp; of this marine sPrvicP fncility •·il:!ch tlas announcer'! a month or so <tf':O for the BAy Bulls aren? '~at hns been his <lepartment's or the provinc:la1 povernrnent's 6457

~'ay 3, 1976 Tape 2383 IB-3 vp • SIM"mrs : :Involvement 1dth the plnnning of that facility? }"!. SPEAKEP: The hem. ''in:l.ster of Industrial and Rural DeveJ opment • .]~. LTJNDRICAN: Hr. Speaker, coincidentally on Thursday I believe it was, y/ednesday or Thursday, I sat specifically on that issue with the peopJe :l.n the department and I raised a question about what the federal att:l.tude wns, the basis for the federal decision. I do not ~·ant to sort of suggest in the least that we challenge any nec:lsion they have made because I do not know the reasons for them and the basis for them.

But we ~~ere not consulted or informed or involved in any ~1ay in the rlecision to move in the Bay Bulls area. And consequently I found :l.t necessary to raise the question ourselves. ~·y deputy minister and the Director General of Fisheries or Environment T r;uess, ~r. Crowley, are supposed to he si.tting do~m. I hope they have arrived at a decision to meet and discuss the issue. I have asked for a report on it, not to challenge any decision that has been made but to find out the extent of what will happen.

Also I feel myself that the federal government in makinr. dec:l.sions of this nature, without getting involved in sort of any provocative comment about the federal government considering the att:l.turle of my hon. colleague from Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr. Tlm~

e) ahout the need for co-operativeness and consultation and the like, but at the same time I feel that the federal government in making decisions invoJvinp, the developments in the Province should be a b:!t more w:[] J inr. to share with us their :l.nformation and at 1 east consult w:!th us even though some of the jur:l.sdictions might be totally H:l.thin the:lr ambit of power.

On the other hand,of course,there are questions,because I hnve asked the question myself as to whether we have the authority to he able to say to the federal government that in view of the fact you wn 1 need property and you wUl need space and you will need available types of opportunities to establish a physical presence in the Province that we might in fact have a right and a bit of authority. Therefore all the more reason l~hy the federal government should involve 6458

•·:-y 3, 1976 .,.ape 2383 Ill-4 . :~-lll'll)T>T~AN: '"' in tlwir ,Jiscnssions ancl the:lr r:lecision makinr 1n this instance. '"". ~PF.AKF.l': 'l'he hon. member for Twi] lingate. 1fT'. S~'ALLHOOJ'l: "r. Speaker, I t.•oulrl have adc1resser1 this question to the ~overnwent House Leader hut he is absent from the Chamber at the I"ol'lent, 110 J ask the hon. the Premier j_f he can give us some nppro:'<im.,.tf' :!,lea as to l~l,en there ldll he a resumption of the r:lebate on the 1\clclress in T'eply to the Speech I'Tom the Throne that was de]i,•erecl tn us r.o:lnr on six !'lonths a~o. !:"'.

SPY::AKJ\l': The hon. the Premier. PRE~'T'F.ll l~llRF.S: "r. Speaker, the est:hnates at the present time t:>hle sl,nulcl hE' H.nishe~,or :lt looks as :If they will be finjshe,J, nrmmcl ~'ay l1 or Y.'ay 12. J woulr1 think inunecliately after the estimates have heen dealt with that the Address in T'.eply, the hmlr.et cleh:>te and the Je~islation ~Till obv:f.ously be coming in then. nut hopefully for the hon. gentleman's benefit if there is SOlE particular renson hP t.rould like it caller1 on a particular time, he t.rHl find the roverni"Pnt most en-operative :In that re~arc1. A supplel'lentary. ~fr.

Speaker, may I ask if t;he hon. the Prem:f .er would hP w:!Jl:ln~ to co~nt on the fact that in the parliament of our nation, the House of ~ommons, the f'sti.mates, the budget are not nermitted to cniT'<" r'n•.rn unt:!l "'fter the debate on the Ar1dress in Pepl y to the Speech frma tl•e Throne has J-.een colTip] f'tecl ,and then on] y by l a"' is the bt~clp,et :mr1 :1re the PstimntPs permitted to even be hrour,ht dot.m. '~T'.:. SP~~ The hon. the Premier. PT'F.l'1TF.P ><(I()T'J'S: "r. SpPaker, I ,.r:f_]J he p-lRd tn comment on :lt.

Plrsr of all the !louse of' f'o1'1!'1ons :f.n fltta,.ra sits fot' approx:f.m<ttely tr>n wonth< " yr..~r. "~'he Address in l'eply is Jim:lter1 to ei~ht days, the lm<'<>:ct r:le-h:~te 1 s ] :!l"i.ter1 to etp;ht days, anil the est:fmates are ;t) 1 han,Jleti In f'nl"!"ittee ~,hict> t:okes very l:Jttle til'le out of their J-.us:lness "'ncr tlu"~.' normallv cleaJ •. ,:f.th le!!islation as opposed to here vlwrc pnl :It :J cal points nhv:lnusly are more iMportant than 1 at.'s ar(l it 6459

l'ay 3, 1976 Tape 2383 IB-5 PRE~TEF !-'<'OPES : is the waste of ti~e, Sir, that is the problem and not the order of business being called. The hon. me111ber for Trini ty-Ba.y de Verde. Yr.. Speaker, a cmestion to the Premier. I "ron<1er i.f the Premier cnuld indicate to the Rouse whether or not it is the govern~nt's intention to have officials or representatives from the provincial government present at times when proposals or approachs r are made to the receivers of the bankrupt oil refinery for the purpose of purchasing the oil refinery.

Is it the government's intention to have represen.tat:lon or officials present? t"R. SPEAKER: The hon. the Prem:ter. PREMIER MOORES : Hr. Speaker, they have been to date. '!'he situation I suppose, someone could come into the receiver's office and make a proposl".l. Certainly :It would not be very long before the r,overnment and the first mortgagee, the British ECGD, that depar~ent of British p:overnment, would be advised because obviously they lvould he the first ones to be advised.

If there was anything material or relevant in the propositions, they would be called in on any n1scussions that were being held,I would assume. Certainly whilst they may not be there at the very initial contact - obviously they could not be - but before any degree of negotiations Hent on I ~,•oulil th:lnk so, ~·r. Speaker, Well, a supplementary. I wonder, Mr.

Speaker, if the Pre,.,ier could in<1i.cate whether or not there w:l.ll be officials present when the group of exportinr, companies get together in Toronto later this month in connection with the proposal to buy the Come ny Chance oil refinery, in connection with Mr. Cay. Jay as in bird. Jay right. There is a bit of a difference, I admit. 6460

' 'rly l, 1'17(, T;Jpe No. 2384 NM - 1 !1 1 ~. SP"'.AKf.R.: The hon. the Premier. Hr. Speaker, we have not been contacted by ~· r • . Tay . I do not knm< if the receivers have or not,but as the fellow said around the bay, Sir, you know~! am not sure hut T think he probably went to Hing . rw . SPEA.T(ET:: T will allow one further supplementary. !'R. ROWE: With all due respect, Mr. Speaker, I do not think the <JUE'S tion was ans••ered. It is indicated in one of the newspapers that both federal and provincial government officials could attend. The question is will we have representation in attendance.

He have not been asked. No one will be going to my kno1•ledge. >m. SPEAKER: The han. member for St. George's and then the han. member for LaPoile. J.t is not just a curious question. '~R.S. ~'CISMC: T have a question for the Minister of Provincial ,\ff n1.rs and Environment. l "onder if the minister is aware that the blue whale that washed up on the beach at the Highlands has still not been disposed of in the manner recommended by lli_s department some three weeks ago? "R. SPEAKER: Environment. ''fl .

J'lTRPIIY: The han. }1inister of Provincial Affairs and I thought the matter had been disposed of because the Department of the Environment, the federal government, it 1•as their responsi .hility, we WE're working together on it• I thought recommendations had been made by our department on behalf of the peol'le i.n the area and I thought that they had been fulfilled. But ;1t the present moment t will phone immediately and check with my orfice to see just what has happened to that blue whale. l'R. SPF.AK.ER: The hon. member for LaPoile. ~m. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the hon. the l'remi.er.

Would the han. the Premier tell the House just nol.' what is happening in connection ' ith the fishery p;ear scandal7 !Ins the initial report been received? What action will be taken 6461

't'ay 3, 1976 Tape No, 2384 BM- 2 ~~. NEARY: on it? Is that why the Minister of Justice is ahsent from the House today? Is he pondering over the report? Just give the House a report on what is happening in connection with this investigation • PREMIER MOORES: No more, Mr. Speaker, than was passed on by the Minister of Justice the other day. The Minister of Justice today is in Fortune, inhis district,! understand. The RCMP and the Constabulary are still busily involved in trying to come up with a position on the gear replacement p~ogramme and the difficulties that may or may not have happened there.

The fact is, Sir, that,you know,it is being done as fast as it can be done,but the thing is that you do not want to isolate any one individual at the expense of others. I mean~! think that ~t is only fair that the people who are at fault here that they all be brought in line at the same time or as soon as the evidence is available. It is not a government decision. It is a Justice decision. 1"R • NEARY: MP. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary.

Is the hon. the Premier- obviously the hon. the Premier did not understand my question-is the hon. the Premier aware that the CTown Prosecutor, Mr. Kelly,I think it is, stated publicly outside the House that the first part of the report had been received and this is what I •m •Rking the Premier about? Is it official? Can the Premier tell the House whether or not there is a report in and when we can expect action on that report? !:R. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PRE}'IER moRES: Hr.

Speaker, when we are dealing with matters of criminal offences in Justice there is never interference by this ~overnment with that procedure. ~. NEARY: I am not talking about interference. l!:R. SPEAKER: Order. please! MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Sir. 6462

Tape No. 2384 Order, please! Does the hon. gentleman have a supplementary question? ''R. NEARY: Yes. All I want to know from the Premier is, has the government received an official, partial report on the fishing gear? Nl'' - 3 PREHIE'R }!OORES: Hr. Speaker, if a report had been received, Hhich I understand it has, it ,,ould go to the Director of Public Prosecutions. There is no reason for it to come to me or to the government. It is for the Public Prosecutor to prosecute peoole who have been charged with criminal offences. Tt is not for political mileage.

It is for the Public Prosecutor to act upon in his position as Public Prosecutor. >TR. NEARY: Well has he received the report? !'R. SPEAKE~: Order, please! PRE} tiER M00P.ES: I have no idea, nor do I want to know. Hl' .• SPEAKER: The han. member for '1\-tillingate and the hon. member for Windsor - Buchans. tfl'.. sr~AI.LWOOD: lir. Speaker, would the han. the Minister of Education tell us in connection with a statement that I believe he made, he dill make the statement and I believe what he said was, that in '<<'1~founcU:md the number of persons who are functionally illiterate was,I think,around f>O,OOO or AN I!

ON. !-'EMBER: 80, 000 • YR. SrfliLLWflOD: 80,000, some astonishing figure, would he tell us, if I understood correctly~that he said that a functionally illiterate person 1~as one who had not gone above grade five - and he nods approval that he did say that- what would his comment be on the stories on the radio today -or was it yesterday? - that in Canada as a 1~hole there is an astonishing number of people who are functionally illiterate, functional illiteracy being under grade nine?

How is the difference, grade five in Newfoundland, grade nine for Canada as a ~~hole, used as the definition of functional tlli terac··1 6463

}fay 3, 1976 Tape No. 2384 NM- 4 MI.. SPEAKF.R: Before recognizinB the hon. Minister of Education I think I should state that if during Question Periods, or indeed any periods any hon. member thinks that another is out of ~rder,then I think what should be done is that the bon. member would rise on a point of order and make it and to give his reason to the Chair rather than sort of saying that the Chair can hear order, order, but without specifically making a point of order. The hon. member for TWillingate. ~. S~ALLWOOD: t'r.

Speaker, do I understand that someone was in doubt as to whether I was in order in that question? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! There is no point of order before the House at the present time. The hon. Minister of Education. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, the statement I made was that there is about, according to our figures .and estimates from the Division ol Continuing and Adult Education, that there is between 80,000 and 100,000 people who are functionally illiterate by our standards.

I did mention when I was going through the estimates that across the United States,in the terms of elementary and primary reading 7we classify nationally and internationally, we were classifying people as functionally illiterate, who were not up to a grade four standard generally across the North American Continent. • And I said we used the grade five standard because we had to do the testing on that basis because a person had to have a grade five standard in order to be able to avail of the BSTD programmes, the illiteracy programmes to get into the BSTD programmes.

We used that figure which was one grade higher than the national. MR. SMALLWOOD: They are national in the United States. MR. HOUSE: They are national here and international, yes, and in Canada at that particular time, yes. MR. SMALLWOOD: And Canada? MR. HOUSE: Yes, at that particular time. 6464

1-fny 3 , 1976 Tape No. 2834 Nl-1 - 5 ~'R. HOUSE: Now for a group to come out, and I do not know if ~ny hon. member~ know more than I do, I have never heard the term "illiteracy" being applied to a grade nine level. That is something I would have to - AN !'!ON. !"EMBER: Functional illiteracy. 'MR. HOUSE: Functional illiteracy • yes. I have never heard it app l ied at t hat high a level. :MR. SMALLWOOD: It was on all the radios today. MR. HOUSE: Well anyway I will check that out for the ho:n. member. MR. NEARY: You could get it up to grade eleven or university. }fR. HOUSE: ~ight.

The other thing I would like to point out, "'r. Speaker, to the hon. member is, he said that anybody who had not gone beyong grade five .• That ;l.s not necessarily the way it was said. It was said anybody who does not bave a grade five standing. There are a lot of· people, ~fr. Speaker, who }.eave school with a grade eight level,possibly,and they go into jobs and trades and nPver bother to upgrade or do any reading,and ··•hen they· apply perhaps to go to s·ome upgrading school they may he below a grade five de facto.

So they could have had grade eip:ht at one time in their life before, a grade eight standing, but now of course they have not kept up ~.rith it. That is n po!<'siblity. 'MR. S~IALLWOOD: Can the hon. minister tell me - ~. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Twillingate. MR. S}fALLWOOD: - he wu principal of a school and I think a RCh'?ol inRpector, what would now be his functional grat'e, would he pass now? I know I would not. W>. !)('!OD"i: You had twent y-three years in the Uouse of Assembl y . t'R . Sl'IALU IOOD: Hell of course that took it all ;iway. MR. srr.AKER: The hon.

Yinister of Education. ~· IICIUSF.: We cannot t ake it lightly, ?!r. Speake r. Most people 6465

Nay 3, 1976 Tape No. 2834 NM- 6 !!R. HOUSE: continue to improve but there are a number of people 1vho say drop out at grade :t;ive or six who deter1orate a little in their academic upgrading as well as a few people above that. HR. SUALLWOOD: Those with grade nine or grade eight and go back even to grade five. rffi. HOUSE: Yes. There is that possibility. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: It is time for one further question. I recognize the hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. ~. FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Thia question to the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations.

There was a statement within the past few days indicating that the Buchans Task Force Report would not be completed,or therefore presented,! suppose,until May 31st. Would the minister advise the House as to what is causing the delay in the completion and presentation of that report? }11'.. SPKAKER: The hon. Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. tfR. ~lAYNARD: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I can advise the bon. member.

The subcommittee reports,and as the hon. member is aware there were a number of subcommittees set up to investigate and report on various aspects, transportation, tourism, mineral, etc., to report to the main task force. There was some delay in the presentation of the subcommittee reports and,as I understand it,there is one or two maybe that we received only a week ago. On all the committee reports and on the main task force there are people from the union and from the general public at large in Buchans,and they are all making the decision as to when the task force report can be presente~.

It is in the final stages now and I hope we can meet the deadline of May 31st. HR. FLIGHT: }ill.. SPEAKER: One extra, Hr. Speaker. The time has expired. 6466

May 3, 1976 Tape no. 2385 Page 1 ORDERS OF THE DAY: On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on Supply, Ur. Speaker left the Chair. COHMITTEE OF SUPPLY: The hon. member for Terra Nova. - mw MR. CHAIRMAN: lfR. LUSH: Hr.

Chairman, I have no intention of delaying the estimates, but I feel compelled to talk on a few points ag.in, having spent fifteen years of my life in education and a number of years in university training to become a teacher,that I have some very strong feelings on education and, of course, it does take -some little time to comment on some of the - what I feel to be - some of the major issues that have been raised in this particular Committee. And I do not want to bore members.

I mentioned, I think, when I first spoke to this in this Committee that there were some things that I realized that probably had not received the emphasis in this Committee that they probably should have and that it was my intention to bring a few things to the Committee that I thought should be discussed. And I do want to clarify some of these points that I have mentioned. Before getting on to some of these points, however, I do want to comment on a few of-the statements that the minister made when he was speaking just a couple of days ago.

One was the pre-schools,and the minister seemed to suggest that he was not placing a great emphasis on pre-schools, and that is unfortunate, because there is not another province in Canada that needs pre-schools more than Newfoundland does. And the very fact that he mentions that in Newfoundland there are somewhere between 80,000 to 100,000 functional illerates: this makes it very important that we have pre-schools particularly in relation to the fact that I mentioned here some time ago that it has been proven that one of the most important factors with respect to educ~tion is the home. 6467

May 3, 1976 Tape no. 2385 Page 2 - mw Mr. Lush.

And when we realize that we have 80,000 to 100,000 people who are functionally illerate,- and, of course, there was a time when we used to break that statistic down into the illerates and the functional illerate, but now we combine them, and it would certainly be good to know, pretty helpful to know in this debate if we knew the number of illerates, but apparently Statistics Canada gave up finding out this piece of information so everybody now is grouped together as functional illerates, So when we realize these two things,that ther~ 80,000 to 100,000 functional i+lerates in this Province, when we realize that the home is probably one of the most tmportant factors in education, we can see the real need for pre-schools to help the culturally deprived, to help the disadvantaged.

And I think we must in this Province give pre-schools greater emphasis. We must have pre-schools if we are to help those students that are culturally deprived. It is a must. The minister mentioned that these kinds of schools in the U. s., the head start programmes, that they were a failure,or were not so successful as they had hoped for. And when the minister said this, I asked him to comment on why, because that is a very important thing as to why those kinds of schools failed in the United States, And I again do not want to belabour this issue, but it is most important.

The pre-schools in the U.S. did not fail. lit.eally the pre-schools in themselves were very successful. But why they failed - and the minister I am sure is aware of this - why they failed was because when these kids came into the mainstream of the educational system that our system was not geared to take care of these students.

Indeed,in the pre-schools these kids were brought up to the level that educators wanted them brought up to, they were very successful, But when they were placed into the educational stream they got left behind again, because the educational stream is geared to the middle-class, if you Will, 6468

May 3, 1976 Tape no. 2385 Page 3 - mw Hr. Lush. and these students started dropping further behind. So the fault for the failure of the programme rested with the schools, with the educational system, the failure to co-ordinate the whole thing, and to make sure that this programme that was geared for the head start people sort of continued that way, and that is why it failed.

So, Sir, it is very important, I think, in view of the facts that I pointed out,that the government certainly put stronger emphasis on pre-schools in this Province and see that we do get pre-schools to help the culturally deprived and the disadvantaged children in this Province, the people who never see books before they come to school, people who never know what a magazine looks like, and this sort of thing. And when these people come to school they are at a distinct disadvantage; hence the tremendous importance for pre-schools in this Province. MR .

SMALLWOOllt Would the bon. gentleman allow me !to ask him a question? This term 'pre-school' implies,I take it,some kind of training in the home for the youngster before the youngster goes into school, and the hon. gentlemen speaks of magazines in homes where the youngsters have never seen a magazine or have not had this or that or the other advantage. Would he be kind enough to tell me and tell the Committee a little more about tiis pre-school? What is involved? Who is to do it? What is the cost and so on? Would he spell it out a little? It is frankly, if I may lay to him, it is a rather new idea to me.

Many mothers do teach their youngsters before they go to school the alphabet and a number of other things, but this is not what the bon. member means, I think. I would like to know it is. MR. LUSH: That is specifically what I refer to when I am talking about the disadvantaged children. Many children do not get this sort of thing, that they do not know the alphabet, that 6469

May 3, 1976 Tape no. 2385 Page 4- mw Mr. Lush. people have not r~ad . to them. And it is only when you are engaged in teaching that yau realize the vast numbers of students who come to you not having these things done. MR. SMALLWOOD: And the remedy? MR. LUSH: The remedy is a pre-school, a pre-school that would be naturally established by the government, the same as they do with other types of schools. Now there are all sorts of pre-schools, and they do not have to be structured in the same way that the ordinary school does.

It can be on a community basis involv~ng parents. ~'hey do not need to be nearly as expensive. They do not necessarily have to have trained teachers, but people who are concerned, people who would probably work for a far less fee than teachers would. But the pre-schools, if we are to look to the United States,and indeed Canada for pre-schools, it is a fully government sponsored thing, and the people in it are full-fledged teachers, if we were to look to them for examples. But I think, you know, that we can look to them for examples, but we can fabricate our own kind of pre-school geared to our needs.

Now we would have to go into all the different kinds. There are all kinds of pre-schools, and the minister is aware of this as I am, and I do not want to get into that. You know, I am not going to get into that point at all. I am just talking about pre-schools that will help students from culturally deprived families, disadvantaged c~ities to help give them a start, to help them to catch up to people who were exposed to the kind of educational experience to which I referred.

The other point, when I was talking about expenditures, and I was referring to some of the factors that resulted in the cost of education escalating in the way that it has in the past three or four years, or in the past eight to 6470

!tny 3, 1976 Tape no. 2385 Page 5 - II1W ~lr. Lush. ten years , for that matter, and the minister will recall that I mentioned a couple of factors that were important or that caused education to rise the way it did . to point out, of course, that the real cost was not apparent really when you looked at the total picture . And the minister mentioned,or I mentioned.that the lncreased enrol lment was a factor, and the mini ster said that the enrollment has been going down in the past three 01: four years , and that is true. But, of course , I was taking a total pict ure from about , let us say, the past ten years . And in the past ten years,if you take 1965-1966, I believe, and compare 6471

"ay 3, 197F Ta.pe 23R6 J.Jl-1 .!.:!:· Ll'Sll: the stud en~ enrollment C'lf. 1965 with the school enrollment of today and T th:lnk you ·~ Hl f:fnd out that \ve have approximately 12,000 students more in our schoolf; today than we hat'! in 1965-1965. So there was ;m increase in students. The decrease actually j s very lHtJe. I think it :Is on]~· drC'Ipping off - and the minister could correct me on this, I am not sure of the statistics -but I think the decrease started somewhere, the real decrease, probably started so~ewhere about 1973-1974. Since that time it is probably ~o:ln~ d01>.'fl 1,500 a year, 1,200.

It c:lepencls,I suppose. So 1973 from that t:fme on :It started to go clown. But even ~dth that torl<'ty we now have 11,000 students more :In our schools t~an we have ever had. So :!.ndeecl the increase :In student enrollment is a factor. Mother factor that I was try:fnp to point out in pressinr, for more expenditures in education,and in cmnpar:lnp the a"'ount of l!'oney that we spend in eclucation as cot11pared to other provinces, that we have - and the minister mentioned this statistic -more of our youn~ people - that is a percenta ge of the pnpul a~ion - ll!OT.e than any other prov:f .q.ce in Canada.

I am not sure of the statist:fc,hut I believe that we have someth:fn~ th:frty-two per cent of our population enrol led :l.n schools. That 1<•as another f11ctor. So that is all I lmntecl to comment on there. I just 1:orant to sav I · was surpr:l .se!l to find that the min:lster was not as stronRlY for these pre-schools as I thou~ht maybe he shoul rl have been.

T,'hat T hl'\ve been try:ln!! to do 1 even thoup:h I have been talkin~ about more ex~e~~1ture in education, what I have ~een trying to do - nnd I have ment:lnne~ that I reel:lze we are in a time of restra:lnts and 11 t:frre of austerity - what I h11ve heen tryinp: to do is to make us see that e~ucation is very, very :f.mportant, that we are not spen~:fn~ enou~h money if we want to eradicate all the inequalities that e:2dst in e<'ucat:l.on, all the problems that we have. So I want tf'l make ~ure that we keep education as a number one priority,or that 6472

";,v ] , 1 ') 76 T.~pe 2JRI) rB-2 '"' • T.PSJT : ------ ,.,., tr v to !'lilt it h:f~her in the spenc:l'lnp priorit y Fhen thi.nr.~ ch;mge, 0r •·1hen ••e rio come into 11 s:l tnati on of a J :1 ttl e more money,or "'hen '.-'<' :1re ]o..,l<:Jnr: nt the prov:fnci"J expenc1:ftures to try !l.nd assirl" ef'nc:ntion 11 little m<'re :lmport,;mce, if you •.r:f.ll, a l:lttle more pr<'minence.

T ""' tryinr, to point ont the importance of ec1ucation :mc1. the fact that '"e really no neec:l more T110n:fes to be spent on ec1nc>1t:f<'n th>1n •··e no•·' have :ff w·e are to make our educational system - Houlrl . the hon. p;entler.tan before he sits down, confirm the impression that T have formed from his vmrrls, that in arlvocating n pre11ter effort hy the f.overnment and a r.re11ter expenrli ture on pre- school ec1uciltinn,;mc1 p;enen,J]y in !l.rlvocat:ln<> more expenc:l:lture on edncilti<'n, "h"t the hon. p.;entlem.an 1s c1oi.nr :fs stating the need, sort of st<~ldnf: n c:J :dm on the finances of the Province for thP eilncnti nn effort in ~eNfonndJ ?nd. but with an :Increase of twentv nc1n ,.,u 1 ion fo,. educ<~tion th:fs year compared •··Hh ] ast vl'~>r he is not pressinr. for still I"Ore expenc:l:fture over and ahove these t••e-ntv odrl mill:fonR at the present time> hut is content to st>l.J.-e his cl;dl", stake> our clail'! :In !-'epfounrlland for more l"oney for erlnc'ltion if, "" "nc' p'fJen t~E're> 1~ l'!ore money for the purpose. no I understann him correctly? ~'T'.

L T'SIT: Th:1t is :>l!'1ost it. I am in a 11ttle more of the m:lrlclle of the roM1,hut tl1nt is <~lmost jt. I reaJize hav:l.nr: been an ec'ucator for, '""' I s;d(l, fifteen years, that we cannot flo the thinp,s that ,.,e ,,,.,nt. to rlo h<'cause v'e C!o not. h;we the money,anC!

T >1m trving to streR~ "P"in to r;overnment the :lmport~tnt role of ef!uc"tion 11nd th~>t they , .. n J m:1ke <'VP.ry effort to """iM1 :It a h1p:her prinrity. llt1t I nm 'wnre of the r<'straints ;mrl the kinc1s of fiscnl restraints th~>t <·'<' mn st ~ave. 11nt T "'111 r,P.t nOT<m a J 1 ttl e more to tal k:lnp, ahont these thinr;R spf'c::lf1ca1Jy ,,hf'n T pet into the specific est:!.mates. "Rut tJ,ere 11re 11 couple of points J want to m~tke bec:-1nse T ,lo not think th"t T ~ave m11rle myseJ f completely understoorl :In this llouse, a nd I r e fpr to some of the coT!1I11ents J have hear<'! from the mecl:la 6473

... ~ 'ay 3, 1976 Tape 2386 IB-3 !·'!!. LTTSH: and this sort of thing. I remember somebody quoting me as saying that we should take a fresh look at education and then immecliately, of course, they referred to the Warren Cotnlllission. Hhen T SllY take a fresh look at erlucation J am not talk:l.ng about anything like the 1olarren rotn~~~:lss:lon, another commission. . I am not talking about that at all and I •~ant to make that point clear this afternoon, what it is that I re11llv mean when I say that we should be taking a fresh look a.t education.

To do that I just have to back track just a little bit and look at the four major recommendations of the report of the royal C01!111'ission. They Here, one, looking into the. organization of education ; number two, the level of teacher <:Jualification: mnnber three, to undertake a comprehensive revision of the curriculum. There are four th:lngs really, and I have just forgotten the other poi.nt at the 1110ment but 1 will th:l .nk about it as I am ~to:lng through. Oryanizat:lon of education, that we have done very well.

But that is what we have been really concerned about, the organizat:lon of education, the structure, the administration. Th:ls is ~~at we hAve rel!llly - these are the parts that we have reall)• taken frol'l the royal col'mt:l ss:lon and we have done a fine job. I am reasona .b J ~ satisfied with the organ:l.zation of education in this Province toitay. J run not one hunclred per cent satis .fie!l,but I m~ reasonably satisfiec't v:lth the orranh:ation. Number h!O, the level of teacher qual:l .f:l cation. t~e have certAinly marle r,:lant stric'es in that area. The other one was f:lnanc:ln~ of erlucation.

That is the other point I •~antec1 to mention. I h11ve co1!'Mientec1 on that here in the House. I could spenrl ten hour!' tal k:lnp, about f :!.nancinp of Pducl!.t~ Cln hut I do not ''""t to , I havP. raisec't the major questions, I th:lnl<. Hm·' much money :Is tn he spent~:l.n 11 vapue "'ay? I have not specified it in r'o ll;~rs ""c1 cent~'< hut I have :lnclicaterl that there shoul c1 be more. l'o!N' shoulit the rooney be ra1.!'ec1? I alluded to t'llat and it has been 6474

":1V 1, l'J76 '!',pe 231\6 T"B-4 ·~ T" T,Pf'"JT: - __ ,. ---- fnrther enl i rhtrner' upon hv my othf'r hon. call e~gueR. ,'.nother pdnt th.~t T 1mul<' 1-ll:e to t:1lk about iR hoF ~hot1l<'l rh0 T"onev he r' i str1buteo. 11\lt T oo not h~ve the time. I ,.,ould ] H.e to t:>H ahnnt th.-..t hPcflnse Fe are not r1iRtrjbutjng the fund~ properly 11m: c-.An •ve ret he!'t value for the money that WE' nrr nnv snen~inp? That is •~l1at I ,.,ant to concentrate on ri.pht no~:. T ta 1 keel ahnut the other issues but I "tomnt to talk about how we can ~<'t the heAt Vfllne.

Thjs is •rhat I am talkinr :>bout "to•hen I talk :1hn11t :1 f;resh look At eoucRtion. The !":ljor point th!l.t the Parren r.om1'1iRs:lon -one of th<':l.r rour point" t·:erp - "no 1 have to rive you these fonr points apR:In sn th!'lt ""' m:1l<P sure that •·•e understann them: flrp-an:lzation of cc'orc-:1tion; 1eVE•1 of t<.><'lcher qn:'llification, then tl,e one thilt T w:1nt tn t:11J.: :1J:.ot1t - financ:inr v:1s the thirc' one - to unilertake 11 cnl'lprel,ensiv<.> rPvis:lon of the cnrricu]ull'.

I h<~. ve stoor1 here Rnying th:'lt the 1'10Rt i:rnportant th:lnr for this Province to be corcerned 'dth in education rip,ht nm·• is the establishinr of ai:r.s and o'IJ.iect:lves. 'To''' f'Pnerally f'P.orl e look At that as not verv ill'portant, to rrot :1i"'" and oh_ier;tives. T !"entjoned in this 1I0use th:-1t ~·<'> r'o nnt h<'ve thPT" in th:i.s Province.

He have got the rather r:enera) :1ims that ever,·bor1y 1,•ouJ d agree to, you knov•, of produci.nr responAible, '·lrll-in~'oT!'1<>c1 <~nn thinJ.-inp- c:!ti.zens w:lth intelJectual, sod;~J an<'l emotion~) ;m<'l T"nr<l.l <111;>1 j ties necessary for succes,;fnl liv:!.nf and ~'or the surcE'sRru] r,rovth of our society. Tl•ese are the renera 1 l•l" h"ve those. TlwRe <1re just mothcrh0oil Aims. But T h:1vr S.'lf<' "'" shnnlrl ro fnrther than this.

T1,is i~ ,,,hat T want tn ,.,.,] r p <'l<':lr in this Honse toc1av. ~nd T c'o not •·r;mt to m11ke tt tec1ions,nnd T r'o not W:'!Dt to make it boring, but this is the crux nf Pn\IC':ltinn, this is the eRsence of cnncation. Fh:1t "'<' f11il to c1o in this Province is to act upon those rrrn1"1T'leni!,tions in th£' W>Jrren r.o:...miss1on that (leal "tor1th the revision <'f curd<'u1um. 'T'hat me11ns establish:lnr a:frns 11nd ob.iecti.ves for snec:ffic 6475

•. ,.y 3, 1976 Tape 2386 IB-5 • ..,. JXSH: '<Uhiect 11TC<I~. You ltno~· it is amAzin g, it !is absolutely fantastic the proprcs; Sl thnt ~•e have M<icle in this; Province 1~ithout these .1iMs, ~dthout thPse objectives, without any direction, "r:lthOQt J·nowfnr ~-here WP IITP roinr . It iS ab~olutely fantastic! lle11r, hc:tr ! __l'll. Ll~R: Of course ,this h~~ to be att r ibuted to the teachers that 1,•e have hn~. tn thP. pcop1.e, the cletlicated peorle out t here :In the ftc).<i . But 14P ;It the depa rtment level, at the j::Overnmen t level, ~e h:tve not ~ivcn the neces~ary leade r s;hip.

And we do not need a co1!'1':'1ttee, we ~o not nee(l a commiss1.on , we !lo ne>t need to spen<l ll'cre ~ne~ to ~o this. He have pot the peopl e. He h~tve got the people sta r tinp r:l pht ~·ith the <lepar tment itself, StO\rtinJZ w1th the 111inister, alJ the w•y clo ... -n. 6476 ,.. ,..

Hay 3, 1976 Tape no. 2387 Page 1 - mw Mr. Lush. We got the people who can do it. All we need to do is to deploy the people properly, is to give the leadership, to set up those aims, to set up those objectives. Now the minister says we got them. MR. NEARY: Leave it up to the bureaucrats and the witch doctors MR. LUSH: And! do not want to refute what the minister is saying. MR. NEARY: The parents. MR. LUSH: I will get to that too. MR. LUSH: I do not want to refute what the minister is saying, but I still insist that there is only one place that we really got them and that is in the language arts.

I would almost ask the minister to lay on the table of the House the objectives and aims in- other subjects,health, religious education, physical education, social studies. Now how,if we do not set the aims and objectives, if we do not establish in the curriculum the kinds of things we want done, the kinds of subjects we want included - and this is what I have been saying. This is what we got to do in this Province.

When I say take a fresh look, we got to look at the kinds of programmes that should be in our educational institution, not only just in the primary and the elementary and the secondary, but at the university, at the trade schools, all the post-secondary institutions. We must look and, see look at the programmes there, to see if these programmes are fulfilling the needs of our people, and to look at the skills that are being taught. This is what we got to do. When I say take a fresh look at education this is what I mean.

To take a look at the things that are going on, to take a look at the kinds of things we are teaching in the schools. With the general aims, I am sure, we all agree. But I want to look at the more specific things. I want to look at the skills in reading, in writing, in listening, in speaking, mathematics, developing appropriate social skills, encouraging critical and disciplined thinking, introducing students to a study of the arts, the sciences and the social studies. These are the kinds of things that I want tbe government to take lead in so that we know where we are going, giving 6477

May 3, 1976 Tape no. 2387 Page 2- mw Mr. Lush. direction. These things are general. They are still general. The minister mentioned aims do not change very much. These general a~s do not, but the ones I am talking about do in curriculum. They got to change to meet the needs, the contemporary needs of society. They got to change. An aim today might not be an aim tomorrow in the way of attitudes. Let us take concepts first. What concepts do we want our students to learn? We do not know. What attitudes do we want to teach? In this bon.

House I have heard it mentioned so. many times that our people do not think in the right way about unemployment insurance, about social assistance, we do not think about them in the right way. What better place to dev'elop healthy attitudes about unemployment insurance and about social assistance than in the school? It is very difficult to start with people who are fifty years old, fifty-five and siKty to try and change their attitudes,the way they think about those thinga. But certainly if you want to change it,the place to do it is in the school,if we think that is desirable.

If we do,then we must get togebher and think out those things. Do we think these things are being taught in the schools today? I see nowhere people say it should be is what I am talking about. What should be taught in the schools? What aims and what objectives? What concepts do we want our students to know? What skills? We must get together and do this. How do we do it is the important thing? Number one, the government must take the leadership role. They must do this. There are all kinds of people, teachers are looking for it all the time. They want this direction.

As a matter of fact the unfortunate thing is that many school boards have started this on their own. They have initiated this action,even without the leadership up here, theyhave initiated this action, when indeed it should be the government who should be the people 6478

May 3, 1976 Tape no. 2387 Page 3 - mw Hr. Lush. to initiate this kind of action, and they involve all the personnel in education in the post-secondary institutions, in the school boards, and the teachers, and this, for the benefit of the bon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary),this is where the parents come in, and the students themselves. We involve them in this process of setting up, of establishing what we want carried on in the schools. They should have some input. This is whe~e the parents will come in, and we very seldom involve parents in Newfoundland in education, very seldom.

The minister mentioned that we had some good Home and School Associations. I maintain that the only thing that these people did was to raise money. That is the only thing they did, and that is why Home and Schools failed when we should be getting more into curriculum, deciding what are the things that we want our students to know, and that is not being done. I would suggest that the time has come for this kind of a look at education, not setting up of a royal commission. We do not need it . We sot people anxious to do this.

We got people and schools boards, superintendents, supervisors, we have got teachers anxious to get into this, but they want some di!ection, guidance from the top to get this done, and in this area we should involve the parents. This is where parents will certainly enter into the picture . So when I am talking about aims and objectives then this is what I am talking about. I am talking about curriculum development, the very nitty-gritty of education. MR. MORGAN: Point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN(~~ . Young): A point of order has been raised. MR. MORGAN: The hon. gentleman is making some good points.

I would like to hear him. There is so much noise in the Chamber here we cannot even hear what is going on. Could the Chair call order? SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 6479

May 3, 1976 Tape no. 2387 Page 4 - mw MR. CHAIRMAN: (!1r. Young): Order, please! The han. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: So, Mr. Chairman, what I am saying is that we should be paying a little more attention to curriculum development. We should be paying a little more attention to what is going on in our schools, and in all our educational institutions. What subjects are being offered, what courses are being offered? Are they going to be valuable for students to make worth-while contributions to society. This is what I am asking. And we involve all the agencies in education that we can to come up with this.

We do not need a royal commission. We not need extra monies. We just need somebody to initiate this action~ And I am suggesting that it should be the government - to carry out these numerous suggestions in the royal commission on curriculum, which have not been acted upon; to carry out some of tl1e things that I have mentioned in the past couple of days with respect to improving the curriculum in our elementary and secondary schools and indeed in all post-secondary educational institutions. So we need to do this.

And for fear that somebody might think that I am impinging upon the professional expertise of the teachers and this sort of thing when I said to bring all of these together to do this sort of thing, and to bring parents, and the only thing that I would want to point out here is that what I am suggesting here is that - in doing this in setting up aims and objectives - we are concerned with what we are teaching. And in order to do thAt we must involve as many people and as many agencies as possible. But the how, that rests with the professional people.

That is astto how these skills will be taught, that is their domain. That is not the domain of those of us who would decide aims and objectives. MR. MURPHY: I hate to interrupt the han. member but when he speaks of involvement, for example, the social workers, are they ever asked to visit schools~or a wokker with forestry? What is their input actually to getting in the top? I was just wondering. 6480

May 3, 1976 Tape no. 2387 Page 5 - mw MR. LUSH: It is sort of haphazard. This is what I am talking about, to have some system. It is haphazard because we do not have these aims and objectives. We do not have these skills listed that we should be teaching and the kinds of concepts that we want taught. So, therefore, schools all pursue it in a different way. Some schools would do that sort of thing. Other schools would not. There are boards throughout Newfoundland doing things quite different from other boards. There are schools within the same boards doing different things. I just want to make this point, Mr.

Chairman 1 I just want to clarify what I meant by a fresh look at education. I did not want people to confuse this with setting up a committee. I just wanted to point out the importance of taking a look at curriculum, what skills our students are learning, what subjects they are learning These are the questions, I think, that we should be concerning ourselves with and I do this to point out again the importance of education, and the tremendous task that we still have ahead of us. Thank you. SOME HON. ME}ffiERS: Hear, hear! MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Young): The hon. member for LaP6ile. }ffi. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, first of all I want to deal with a matter that was raised by the hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr.Rowe) the other day when the hon. gentleman,deliberately or otherwise, Sir, maybe innocently,took what I said, my criticism of the university, completely out of context and tried to lead the Committee to believe that the statements that I had made and the statements the Minister of Mines and Energy had made were one was an attack on the university and the other was a defense of the university.

Well, Sir, I do not know how the bon. member for Trinty - Bay de Verde (Mr.Rowe) could read that into what I said. My attack,with regard to the university, was on extravagance and waste at the university, not an attack on the university. HR. ROWE~ I made that quite clear. 6481

".~y 1, 197f> Tape 2388 I!l-1 No, the llCln. TT'P1"11'er <":lcl ont T!'akP it quire clear in the hon. !'lemher's c-nte little Hay. The hon. memher 1 s not no•,· associ ~ter'! in any '~IIY ··i.th the un:lversi ty. He cloes not h11ve to apolodze. Tie cloes not h:1ve t,., ~" h0Me no'·' ancl take the abuse of the phone calls that the ''.!:..:... J'(1loff:: _ ''r. rhn:l T"'11n, on a p0int of orcler. >'T' "0l·JE: Sever:t1 til"es 0ver the past t'•'O or three years the "'E'Il'her for T,111'oi J e ("r. Ne::~ry) has innicatec1 th"t T have not Oflener'!

IT'V s(lUNtlcer ilf'<1:ln,o;t the university~or questioner'! the pol icv 0f the university J.crause T ,.,as tier'! to the university by cont'['act ancl T would get a phone call from the president of the university taking "'" to t<Jsl·. Th11t is vhat :Is inr'!:lcater'l in h:!.s remarks that he has made in the past :mel he is !Tk1.ki.nr ar;a:ln toc'tay.

T WC'Iuld 1 ike t0 r;o on recorr'l as ~<tt~tinp; that s:lnce I have been elected to this llouse T h11ve not heen on c0ntrac .t :In any "'RY ~'h<ttsoever ~J:Ith the nniver,;it'' except for s:lx weeks. >fT'. 1'-~tAT"Y: ------- Th11t i.s nCit a ro:lnt of order, S:lr. .Tn~<t one sec-on<". Tf I can h:we - "" l>CYvF: - the priv:ll er:e of reply:lnr to some remark,; mare by the J"e~1hC'r for T.al'nil e (vr.

Nearv) that can be certainly rrd.sinterpretec1 hy thos" "'h" r'o not kno•·• the c'1.fference, T have never been ans"erabJe to tl' e ~'el"0ri "1 T'n :!vend rv s :!nee 1 have been eJ ecte~ t0 this Honse of .A "SE'l'lhl y, ,,,..,rl anyth1 nF; th"t the member says :lnc1icatinr; that 1 s 1 feel :It is not a point of orc1er,hut a difference of opinion between two hon. members. -~-~J!F.AT>Y: "r.

Cha:fm;>n, Hhen I "'Ml a IT'ernber of the olc1-Jine L1.beraJ C1lUC:HR, Sir, !'limy is th~ t1l"'e :It ,,ms very, very subtly h"fnterl to me that T hetter l11y off the university, that T better not c'o this and T hetter not on th11t. One of the rea.sons •n•s - antl the hon. me!"1ber told me h:lmself- that every t:hne 1 cr:ltici.zed the un:lver.sity,rel:lp;:lously, MR. ROWE: Completely false! 6482

•• .., •• 1, 1"17(, Tn-2 ''I' ~J rlll'Y: - -· ·---- •·r ""1"': r?tsE"o,f<'r the recor(l . r•P. . C:HAIPNAJI': 0rrler, please! ':!:.:......:'lF.<\PV: • !·'~>lJ T can onlv repeat ~•!>at the hon . ~entlem an told l"e roc> rheT'<'fore, "r. rhainnan , J want to l"P.Ice it ahunda:ntly clt>llr. lo11rl su11' clenr , that. T l":tke no apol<'1!,1e:> to anybcrly , incluclinr l'hP hon . ,..e,her, for my remarl ;s 1 rarle the othl'T' rl11y 1n connectirn Clnly the other cl"v• ~ir, T hea rcl l'lf a cl.'lntract. "on. rnnro~ t o the rovrrnment ' ,:: puhlic tenclerinr procecurt> .

Thc>y ~111 only r:> 11 public tencler,:: f()r anything over $10 , OC'II) . The ~overn men t has tn c-:>11 tc>nrler~ for evervthinr over $1,000 unless it is a bir prn1<'ct. ;o !,jr hnildinr,, n h111'e bu"ilflin?, or. Sl'll:leth;ln~ . The- l',l'lvernn>ent it.,Plf !-tal' ac'optecl the :tttituc'e thSit it 1d.ll C;>.ll ruhlic tenclers for ,1nvrhinr ov<>r ~ J ,nnn. The un;fversity, Sir, Rays tlt ay will nl'lt ci111 ruh lic t<'ndt>rr. for anythinr, under $10,000.

For anything under $10,~0 thc>v wi 11 not ci!ll puhl ic te>nders. tn oth e r '.-ll'lrcls thev are thumhinr, t hri r nl'l!':(' :~t t"e ;'l'l"ernl"ent and saying , "Ah, you ro aheacl an<l folle>w yl'lrrr 1 itt 1 I' p uhJi c teocle r i nr. pr ocerlure vou put throu !"h the !louse hut ~·r nre not r oinr to f()lJC'I•· it over here . " 0 n1 y ti-e l'lther rl.~y T hc~rrl of a case where a con tr~tct t-•as """'fl""v· J\ntl tl •ev MerP the h1r,he~t .,~~rler. They r~Pre $6 ,00() al-ove the lol-lest hiclciE>r Dn<' the cnntract wnR awartle(l . Nobody clare question 1 t.

J\n<l th:~t i~ the J<intl of extravap11nce And waste that J al'l try:fnr . to h ritY,t tn the nttention nf the ~'ommittee bt>fore we pass the <"!"tlmntes nF thP univPr!"itv, to subs tRntiat e 1'1)' arpunent and t he fr~lin~ nf ~lot <"f people in this Province that t he un:fversity ' s hrrclr,ct ,;hnul" ht> bron:tl-tt into this !louse And that the president 6483

Tape 2381\ TB-3 of the nnivendty should .ittRt not thumb his n0Re <tt members of the Tlot.tRe ann Ray, "()h, HE' Hil] put :It 1n the ne¥rsp~per hut lJe Wil 1 not rive -it. to the elected re]'lreRent.<ttives of the people." "'hnt is ~nntempt for this Fouse. ~o, Hr. ~"'ha:lnnnn, it would seem to I!1e that the old-line T.iherals have now reversed their position, that they are now supporting my c0ntention th<tt the univers1tv's hudget shouli! be broup,ht before the House to he scrut:lni ?.ed, not because we want to be cone involved in the ncaclel'l:!c free<'lom of the un:l.versity, but only because we want tn e] :lminate extrav11p.ance and vraste and stop certain in<'ljv:l.c'uaJ s at that university froTll ryppjnp- the people of this Province, p:yppinr t}Je taxp'lyers of this Province.

If the hon. me'IT'her can construe t-h;;t as Meaninp. ;m attaC' .Y on ~'el'lnril'l.l Fnivers:lty,welJ then, S:l.r, T l.-nuld s<ty th11t he ITT\lSt have 11 p-reat :l.rnag:l.nati0n. l.rn ~OHE: You are tn:ls:lnterpretinr it. ''T' ~TEA'PY: Tam not m:l.sinterprP.ti .nl',, Hr. Cha:!I'lT'.an, I ?.m I!1ereJv st at:lnp: " fact. The han. "in:!ster of ~fines ann Enerr,y the oth<>r n:lp:ht t.ook" c'l:lffcrent poRit:lon. The hon. Minister of ~ :lnes <l.n<'l F.nerpy :Is not :In his seat nt this moml'nt.

He claimed that thf' un1ver.s1.tv F:h...,ul d not table its estiii1ates in tM.s House so that me111bers can tal'e a look at it to see if they are awarding contracts to the h:lrhest h:!cltlers 1 as they cl:!d there a Feelr or t"'o Ago, that startecl such a fu"s in the P .C. cnucus. They almost hail resis:mations over it. nver Phat? ~'TI. NF..ARY: nver the contract tltat ~~as awarded over at }!emori;ll l'nivers:lty to the highest bidder. I know the han. Rentleman ]oaks ;ot me as :tf to say, "1-.lell •Jhere no you get th:!s :Information." I r1o not hf!ve the 1'11n:lster's telephone bugged or anvthing. MR.

ROWF..: Yon have hionic ears. Hf'. tffiA PY: t'aybe J. have • l'l'. ~~'i\JJYnnn: /1 bionic eyf',tC'o. 1'1>. NEAT'Y: Mr. r.hai~an, somehody h11.s to be the conscience of this 6484

Tape 23R8 Ill-4 ltnn. Jlnni'P. Somebody h:Jfl to try to kPep the hon. mer1bers stra1phtened Cl\lt. No1•, ":lr, ~·:ith rer.11rcl to the cnse juflt !'ll1cle by my hon. r.ripnfl,whn took h:ffl seat,f<'r more money, h:ffl r,re11t p1€a for 1'10rE' '""n"v for education. 'l'hen he went on ~·:lth great pains to explain to rhe Jlnnse, this ,1; (I not !"een now that he is :interested :In a royaJ coJT1!Tlission or f;~ct f:ln<Hn:; or anythinp; l:f.ke th:1t.

Re c:loes not lvant to offend l1is huclil:les nm·'· Pe :Is somethinJ! like the bon. member Hho rE'prE>senter 1 ''PMnri al T'n:iversity for so lonv. in th:f.s Fouse. ''r. r.ha 1 TMiln - ''R • NF.f. T"Y: A point of order, r.;o ahead. A point : of order, come on. ~'T_,___T_!'Hr.: Tt il' not wnrtl'V of comll'ent. 1'1'. NEf..l'Y: 11e does n<'t I·Jant to o.ffencl h:ls hudd:fes, Sir, does not "'m t to f'ffcnrl ;~ll thnl'e IVho are earn :In~ more l"Oney than the 11dn:l sters, '·'!'" nre e11rninr. !"ore '"oney than the Prem:ler.

T ""' not ta]kinJ" ahout the tc:ochers. 'T'hP. te11chers have my sympathy. nne,; 1-1ho ·"Te C1111f'"ht :In the 11'infl] e. I al'1 tal kinr ar.out the <Yi tch cloetnrs ann the bureaucrats in nnr educational system l•>ho all they <'irl •·ms move out of C.onfederatinn l'.uilcl:fng and move rlmmtont. ~oP thPy have hit po~<h C'ffice>; dm.mto~m, better than the Premier h;";, ' 11ctter than the m:inisterR have, and they are enrninr, l'!ore money.

They are payinr thel"se]ves hi pher salaries. '1'11e hon. !"el"her rets up and tells us torlay-• ··hat an anm:iss:! on for " former ''"'mher of a hoard to make!- that the nffici.a] s of thP. r1Pp:lrt1'lent ro not ~- noP the> r'irecti .on that educnt:f<'n :Is heacler for In thi s Province. 11c s.,vs, "0h, T nm only tryinr, to nr;w attenti<'n to it tn m.,l t' it "c>f.'1'1 !'•nre il'lport;;ont~':fn h:f" p;rt'<lr plP:1 tn pet more fnnrl" fnr c>clncat1 on. Pe :1re only spencl:lnp; a ouarter of the total hncl r-f't nf the Province nm-1 on education.

The hon. mer1her ~·ant" ns tn f"ive thew a ''] anl-: checl'. l'ayre not r:l.p:'Jt no\-' ~.·hen there> are> rrRtr11ints nnd cut-hacks and hel t ti~l,ten1np:, rnayhe not ri.rht nC'v', but 6485

"';,y 3, 1976 Tape 238R ,..,.. tmArY: Ml soon as you pet a fet~ More M:lllion fH-n~t it over to eclucntjon, pttSR it over to his buddies , give them a blank check. 18-5 ~Jell, Sir , I <•oul<l say - and I have said it before ;)nd J an• r,ojnr to say it apain - that before we <lole any rore money over to the eclucat:lon authoritjes, it :Is about time - and I w:fll make "" apolo~:I('S for this, I aM not 1:1ke the hoo. mem\'>er- ~t is about t~l"e th11t l<1e jul't stoppecl fo-r a noment ·and tonk a net~, fresh lool· .

And if the hon. ~ewhe r does not want to be nuoter on :ltt because T Rl\l.i the edi.toriaJ :In The 'Fven:lnn Telegratn , it t•as I who sai<l that it ••;~.::< t11'\e t~e Rhnnltl tnke ;~ ne•·•, fresh look at educa t ion and not the hon . Tl!el"ber. 6486 ,.. ,.. ... ,..

Tnp e 23 fl'1 P.T' - 1 "" 'fFt\l'Y : · -----· l r is time-. Si. r, 1t is timP, hPcausp ei!ucation is the kind of a thinr, St r, th11t i t i.s h ;ucl to f!P.t a ~annle on :l.t. lt :l.s not black or wM tl". '!'here nre " lot of grev areas. You do not kno\~ the damage is none until it is tno l11te.

Pe :1llnlven a system to go on now,and ;ust go higgledy-piggledy helter-skilter all over the place as it is goin~ now1 and 1ust allow thP. hure.,ucrats and the lvitch doctors in the education system to tell us the kind of £'clucation we are p;oinp to have for our kids 1 ten, f:l fteen, tHc>ntv ve11rs from nm~ it will he too late to rectify it. "~ . HOUSE; r.ontinuous improvement.

" ~ NFARY: l'r. r.hairman, I said in the bep,inning of my S])eech the other <l:lv tl-tat since ~onfenerat1on, Sir, we have made rapid strides in the field of Pducnt1on in this Prov i nce, that <>Je have nice, new, bir., hu!?;e hu1ldi.n)!.s nmv. h'e h:'lve a] 1 the Plectronic e11uipment we can afford to buy. He have nicr, btl!. vellnH school husP.s. Put is erlucatinn today 1udr-ed on the si?.r nf the build:lnr, th11t vou haver Hell, Sir, it is to a certain <Iegree. '!n . T,l'ST': Hould the hon. memher permit a question? Yes, sure, go ahead. ' !P.

LUSTT: I am just l·TOnder:!.ng when bhe han. member refers to witch doctors !·>ho he is talking about, whether he would like to name those witch doctor s ? >IT: . ~ !l'. t\.RY: The han. member knmm who I am talking about, Sir. l do not hr~ve to name - lln , T no not . T dn not have to name the witch doctors and the bureaucrats in thC' e<lncnt.ionr~T syst!'m. 1,Je alll' nm~ who they are.

Rut, Sir, 1 would s;JV to thP Min1st!'r of Education, and I have said it before, that H that min1.st c r uan.ts to make his marlr, ~~ants to make a name for 'limsel f in th e f1rlci nf !'r1ucation in this Province as a "Mi.nister of Education, as a ministP.r nf thP r.rown, that 1-te not hesitate at all in launchin g into r~n i mmP<1i.nte f,,ct f:lnrlinR study of our Hhole educational system,especiallv 6487

Tane 2389 RH - 2 HR. Nl'!ll'Y: our post Sf'connarv C'c1uc:~tional system ~~here you r,ot a situation today wll<'r!' t~P. enrollmP.nt over ~>t '!e!'loria] University is necreasin~ Rnn vou r.o t a situation Rt the GoJlege of Trades and Technology •~here they are turnin<>: R~vav four out of five stuc1ents who apply for adm:l sst on to t~e r.ollep:e of Trarles and Technology. You have p.;ot students in this l'rcwinr.P, Hr.

ChairmRn, who have told me themselves, tvho have come to mv homr. come to my office, I have been over at the university and thPv l1avc told me thel'lselvcs they make two applications every year, one to the CnlleRe of Trades and Technology and one to the univen::f ty. They f'et turner\ r1otm at the r.olJege of Trades and Technology and thev get accepted at the university. They realize they are in there taking courses that have no n~lationship at all to what they tvill do •~hen they go nut in the workaday tvorlrl. '!'he certificate that they get :1 s no goorl to them. It ••ill not Ret them a .i ob.

Hhen they R.re Hnished up nine r-l1:mcPs out of ten they have to ~~;o then and do vocational training or go ;md t:1.l:e a course at the College of Trades and Technolop:y in orrler to <!;et n 1oh. So thP.re is where t~e wea~ness is, ur. Chairman. The minister has not to] c1 us yet i'lhnut another irlea that I put forward the other dav R.hout intrnclucinp; grane tHelve 1.nto our h.ip:h schools. 1 hep.: vour pardon? HR. TTOl!Sl': ~·R. Nf/IRY: I have not had a chance to respond vet. T1u? minister, Sir, had a chance to respond to my sur:f'estion. ThP ministl"r has spn1<£>n si.nce 1 spoke the other clay.

I put forward this ~~;rent irlea of - nm<',mind you,a lot of the students mli.y not like it. They mav l''m i c or say, "Hhoa, it is bad enough now to have to stay in for grade P.lPvPn." Up in Ontario they teach up to grade thirteen. i\N ll()N • Ml'MRF.R : Some parts of Ontari.o. ~W.. ' lEARY: is necessary. HJl. 1)001)Y: !'r. }!1'/lf.'Y: Some parts of Ontario, g;rade thirteen. Yrell T do not think that Thev need it up there. Hell maybe they do. 11ut I would prohahly say that r.re neec1 6488

Tape 23!\<l l'T' - 3 r,r:tnr. t<rr.Jve dcnvn here too. '·'P • C:l!A JRl'IAtl : Order, please! Order, please! T have to rel'lind the strangers that they are not permitten ·to enter into the proceedings of tl1<• Tlouse hv ;my manner or means, by word, by gesture or by any other manner or means. The hen. memher. ~'TI. SI'ALLHMD ~ Thev are to be seen and not hearc\. :11~. C:flAJRIIAN: Seen and not heard. HR. Nl\i\RY: ~ir, r,rade t"•elve, in my opinion, would serve a multitude of nurposes.

Pirst of all, ~:l. r, it would give the students a hetter foundation fnr m1iversity or technical training, '~hatever they wish to take, would r,iv<> them a l-,etter foundation. I know, I had a brother who took grade t~<elv<?. hefore he m:!nt into 1-!emorial TTniversity, took grade t"•elve over at ~t. Bon's. There is a living exaTTlple of the advantages of grade twelve. _:•R. HIIRPTIY: Is that the e'luivalent of first year university? l'ffi. 'll\ARY: No, it is not considerec\ as first year university. You can r,et credit for it. Rut it certainly is a great h~lp. So there is the first advantage.

It will eliminate, 1-\r. Chairman, all this nonsense of havinp, to go to the Regional College in Corner RrooJr or p;o to an upgrading scltool or p,o to the courses they usen . to run here over here at Hemorial llniversity for upr,rading before you conln qualify for professional or tPc-hnical train1nf':. In other words, a lot of the students when they come nut of grade eleven are not equipped for university. Nm~ they have reached th<> stap;e over there ~~here they start at the highest qualified and they ~ntnuallv t.rorl< (lo•m. So they are turning a lot of students m•ay.

So T Hould say that p:rane tvJelve "ouln eliminate all th:!s expensive upgrading thnr , • ., sPc ~ning on, especiallv in the Regional College, for that is ahrmt <11l it is, a r:lorifi.er1 upp;radinp, college. The min:!ster can tell us, "Oh,ynu ~f't a t>m vear course~' !Vhat do you get a tl~o year course in? ~·rl,at advantage is 1t? ~ll ould it not be better if -we put grade t-welve into nur ltir,h schools rather than s11end $11 million on a Regional College and 6489

'lav 1, 1 °7F. "P.. ~lEA'RY: Tape 2389 instc.,d of p11tti.np a Regional College out there.; put a College of Trades and Technology or a Polytech out on the Hest Coast hecause th""r" is "here the real neerl is.

Not only that, Sir, but 1->y institutinR rrarif' twelve in our hip;h schools, it would also hrinp the students along to an ar.e ~1hen they HOulrl he better equipped, when they would he a Jittl.e wiser, ~~hen they wouJr1 be ahle to more intelligently take the rrer~t clP.cisi .on that they have to mal~e as to whether they are P.ning to ro nut ancl r.o to university or whether they are going to P-O to the vocational school or to College of Trades and Technologv,to chose their p!!tofr>ssion in other ~vords. They would he a little olner and a little wiser.

Another thing, Sir, - and this may 1->e the last reason hut certainly not the least - it woulrl keep the students in school for another year ann •vould l•.eep us from throwing all these students on to n l11hour m.~rket that cannot ahsorb nnw the numher of students that are ~raduating fro~ our high schools and from our university and from the College of Trades and Technologv and from the vocational schools. l•le are told that fl,()()() students this year will not be llhle to fi nr1 employment. He]] :l.t 1,•ould keep the students in school for another ve:n·. Rut that :1 s not the chief reason.

The main reason is that it •mnl rl he to their advanta~>:e. Although the students may not like it, they may sav ~~el 1, you' know, :!.t is hard enough to have to go to grade eleven, hut in the final analysis, Sir, it would he to their advllnta~e to have p.rade twelve if they wanted to. If they want to go on to grade twelve then they should have that privilege. ~o, Hr. Chairman, I am not going to belabour the -point. I am not goinp. to - ~m. DOOD¥: What of the people of Bell Is land? MR. NEARY: No, the people of Bell Island are doing upgrading.

They arP. r,lad to hear their former memher get up and say a few words,as I promised them I would this afternoon. They have not heard from the hon. member. yet about the ferry rates that are going to be increased across 6490

'l:lV 1, 1"7fi, Tap.-. ?3SQ RH - 5 !H:. NEARY: the ~'i ckle. TJ,ey would like to hear the hon. member talk about that. They woulrl ]ike to hear the hon. member tall<. about the transportation the~t thf' inrlip;ent people, the people on welfare userl to get back and forth to St. Jolm' s. Thev would 1 ike to hear about the water rlelivery the~t was stoppecl ovPr there. They would like to know whether they are ,~oi nr. to p,P.t the road paving this year. 'm. nonnY: They have heard that one,to~. ;m. >JF.J\Rv-: These students and their teacher came in here today expPcting to hear from their hon. member, the hon.

Minister of Finance. They h~tve not heard a peep out of the hon. Minister of Finance and thev Hi] 1 have to go back_ to llell Island very, very disappointerl indeerl. llut at least thev will he e~ble to tell my good friends and colleagues and supporters and friends on Bell Island that they heard from their former memher, the memher for T.aPoile. So, ~·r. Chairman, the main emphasis that I h~tve been trying to make over the past few days - and I do not deny the fact, Sir, that we need ·to put more money into education. I am not denying that fact. Neither am I criticizing the teachers. I am not.

I think they are doing a fantastic joh under the drcumstances - is I think, Sir, that we have to stop now :mrl pause for a while and take a p;oorl, hard look at the direction in ,,,h:!cl, ••e are headerl in the field of education in this Province. He are speniling $l,n mill:ton over at the university and we are spending $5 l'lillion over here at the College of Trades and Technology.

I mean, you know, you Nant to he deaf, dumh, hlinrl or all three if you could not recop,nize, if the min1ater and his colleagues and his officials could not recognize that thf' real need, the pressure today, the real need is to expand the facilities of the Collep;e of Trades and Technology. 6491

~ay 3, l'l71i. Tape 2390 PK- 1 :fR. NEARY: This year again in September I would say that four out of five students will be turned away. And that is the kind of thing I am talking about, Mr. Chairman. Before we turn any money over to the education witch doctors and bureaucrats for their illusions of grandeur, let us take a look at the system. That will not cost us anything. Let us get an independent impartial study made. HR. HOUSE: By whom? By whom? MR. NEARY: I do not know. If the bon.

Minister of Education will give me his salary, and give me his job, and let me go down and work on it for a while I would produce the 'by whom' the bon. member is looking for. MR. HOUSE: I have heard this so many times that I would like to know by whom. There must be somebody the han. member has in mind. I would like to get some advice on it. NR. NEARY: No, Hr. Chairman, I do not have anybody in mind, but - ~1R. SMALLI.JOOU: But there must be people though. MR. NFARY: - there must be people on the North American Continent who can do it, who are not now wrapped up in the system.

And this is where I disagree with the member for Terra Nova(Mr. Lush). I think, Sir, that hv having a study done of our educational system, especially our post-secondary educational system, that every aspect, every phase of society would be given an opportunity to make a cant ribution, the labour unions, the management, the parents, above all, Mr. Chairman, the parents - why, parents have very little to say in the education system of this Province.

Maybe it is because they are complacent and apathetic, maybe they have not taken advantage of the opportunities that are there, but I can speak as a parent - I have four small chilrlren in school - I have no say in the curriculum, I ,, have no say in the way my children are going to he educated. MR. DOODY: Thanks he to C.od! MR . NEARY: I am not one of these that can afford, Sir, to send my children away to the mainland to finish school; they have to get their education right here in Newfoundland and I would like for it to he the hest erlucation available. And that is all I am asking the minister to do, Sir.

I am not condemning 6492

May 3, 1976 Tape 2390 PK - 2 11r. Neary: the 11ystem outright. He h<~ve made rapid str ides. For instance, ~tr. Chairman, docs this House realize that the trade union movement in this Province for the last twenty yea rs have been trying to get labour relations matters added to the curriculum in the schools, taught in the schools ? And to my knowled ge , Sir, so far the government and the minister have resisted that suggestion by the Newfoundland Federation of Labour . And, you know, l'.r. Chainnan, the most important thing - Mr.

Chainnan, could t move that the Cocmittee report no progess, Sir, and ask leave to sj t ar.ain 1 $(}loff. liON. MF.MIIERS: No. ·~R. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! The Committee is not in a t>ositi.on to repnrt a negative , so I would rule that motion as being O\tt of order. Hr. Chairman, the Newfoundland Federation of Labour for the past twenty yea r s have heen trying to convince government that they Rhould teach the students in our schools something about the trad e union movement, and so far to the best of my knowledge ~o vernment s ~nve resis ted it. Mr.

Chairman, one of the things that will af fect students I'IOrE' than anythinp. elese in their lives,! suppose, when they r.rndu;ltn from ht ~~;h school, and from universi.ty and from the post­ secondary i.nstitutions, the th1ng Dhat will affect their live s more than ;myt hinr. iR the trade union movement. They come out of school, rh"Y come- out of th e post-secondary institutions, Sir , and they have not got 3 clue about unlons 11nd about the trade union movement not 11 clue in t his world .

They do not know but a w ion is somethinf, that you hnve on your table for breakfast, do not know, because they :'ITE" not tnu r,ht about it. They are tau ght about t he cnpitalistic "vst C'II', nnri t hey '-'CT.e ta¥ght about the industrial revoluticn, and ~<' nrc- tnupht all kinds of nonsense,but nothinR about the trade union movement . 6493

'lny 3,- 1976 Tape 2390 PK - 3 'lr. Neary: Mr. Chairman, you would be amazed at the amount of ignorance on the part of students as far as the trade union movement is concerned uhen they graduate frotr high school or when they come out of the university or out of the co-llege of Trades or the College of Fisheries or the Vocational schools. They do not know the least little thing ahout it.

So, therefore, Sir, it is easy to understand the confusion, the lack or productivity, the lack of co-opezation between r-tanagement and labour, it is easy to understand why our Industrial Relations scene is so bad in this Province. The only time that they come in contact with the union is when they are negotiating for a contract. They do not attend union meetings.

The membership fee is deducted from the payroll, and they hardly even bother to go down and get sworn in, I would say most of the new members of unions, most of the memberships of all of the unions today have probably have taken the trouble to go to get sworn in. And the only time they learn anything at all about the trade union movement is when they are trying to get a bigger slice of that pie at negotiating time. I claim all of this should be taught in the schools. They should not be taught about just one aspect of society, the capitalistic system,about the value of the almighty dollar.

That would be sufficient reason alone, Sir, for having an inquiry of some kind, a fact-finding study,call it what you like, a commission, call it anything. But I think it is very necessary, Sir, so that we will start to remedy some of the weaknesses in our system. And this is all I am advocating, Sir. It is not a condemnation of the system as a whole. But I want to make sure, and I am sure that all other hon. members of the House want to be sure that we are headed in the right direction, that we are getting the best value for our educational dollar.

We are spending one-quarter now of the total budget of the Province on education. And we want to be sure that our children are getting the best education available, that they are being trained in the right things, that they are being trained in the right skills, that they are being trained to take advantage of the job opportunities, 6494

Hay J, 1976 Tape 2390 PK - 4 Mr. Neary: and they are not just being brainwashed into getting a certificate to put on your wall that will not get you a job, and that is \vhat has been happening up to now. AN !ION. MEMBER: Right. MR. NEARY: I am glad my bon. friend agrees with me. And so that is why, Sir, we have to look to see if we should be putting.more ~oney into the university, should we be putting more money into the College of Trades, and I know the minister will get up and say, "Oh, yes.

It is obvious that we should have a polytech, we should expand the College of Tra<l<:>s." Well then if it is so obvious why do we not do it, instead of pouring the money into the university, why not put it into the technical training? And I question, Sir, whether we are getting the full value HC should be getting today out of the College of Fisheries. I think it could he doing a pretty fair job, but I am afraid it is fallen dmm somewhere along the road. And, Mr.

Chairman, there are too many people, in ~y opinion, looking for a berth for the Winter just getting ln out of the cold, getting in out of the bad weather in the Wintertime, nnd p,etting into some of these institutions so that they can get manp ower allowances which are, I suppose, a glorified form of welfare . . ~nd then the y come out. And I would like to do the research. I heard the hon. member for Tlvillinp:<Jt e (~lr. Smallwood) mention it the other day,that the hon. member said he 1vas amazed and astonished at the number of ~ra<iuates of the Fishery College that had excellent jobs.

"Well what T am suggesting, Sir, is that if they do have jobs,and r hope they do, they are not working at the things :lior which they were trained. And you will find the same thing in connection Fith the university, although the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) says, oh, they might have reached the stage down in the United States where there is a surplus of ~h.D's and E.A's and B.Sc's and they have to go out and "'ark as labourers, 0artenders and taxi drivers, but we have not reached that stap:e, he tells us, in Newfoundland yet. 6495

Hav 3, 1976. Tape 2390 MR. NEARY: Hell, Sir, I know quite a few. I p.;ave one example there the other day of a young lady over on Bell Island. She has got her B.A. from Memorial t:niversity. She cannot get unemployment insurance, she has no stamps. She cannot 6496 PK - 5

T:>pe ?.3'11 TB-1 ::J.' .. :..:lT !-.":'-=. r •· t l'(')f:n·e h<'C:•"IIl>t' <:he il' 1'1 !"inple ri rl. HPr father i s (\0 ~o~ ctfnre. "" r:mnC\t :1 ffnrd to fpen hct" nne' "he cannot ret "'ork. ~0 Whl't CliO "'"" •lc>? •ntl vo" cnn t aj(c th11t :md yott c:1n nul tin) v it bv R<'Vf'r:~J '11m•~recl, T -'~'not l•nov h11t 11everl'l thousand in this Province. 1\ncl the> I-nn. rt>l"'hE'r tell,; ""' ..,e h;ove not reached t he stare vet in R f' ~· fo .. n,<llllncl •·here ,,.c h~ve o'l surplttll of perple Pi,th (le~r.ees. Nrw t hP N'ucntinr •.-il l nnt ~I' her any hRTT' over her 1 ffptil"e .

Tt "ill hroncl en her <'tttlook on Jjfp . ~ell 11 trip to F.l1rope could tin that, l•l'"nl'ttiE>n your OHtl<'o'- on Jife,if that is all you H:>nt. But thi"" PC><'r ri rl <'!-vi l'tt<tl y i R 1 nokinJt for a j oh nnd she c~tnnot :te t jt DI'<'IHtl"e she ltl'l': nnt "C1t tl•<' trnininr. ~IR. tlOUSE: l ~·n\tl<l ~<urN•st llhe train for a 0 1ob. She is nC\t t rn in I'•' fl'r 11 ioh. ~..:..lf'_;_nr ; __ 1'ell 10he 'l<>s P '~ o A . She spent thr<'e C'r f.our years C\ver :>t "<'I"Orinl l'niver<:itv oettinr her B.A.

She r,ot her certificate, prl'l-,nl>lv ltnn r i"l' on hel' ~'~>Jl,:an'd !:!'te is ~toi.nr traipsiny do~m to the •·o<']f:>rc C\fficP lC\okin~ for tJe)far!'. <::tr, we h~ve f'C\t to t~et back tC\ tl•e oltl -f :o~hionetl ll"etho~ of teachfn(r. Jll 1 the experts and all the ~ nnlv<~~ :>ntl ,11 t ht> reople that T have talke<i to,an~ all the t h1.nps tltl't T h~v<' re~>rl in the 1A,;t fe•,o years indicAte beyond any doubt that ''~'~ ' ltnvl.' to <>Pt bo'lcl< tf1 thP <'lt'-f:>,;hionerl method of teach:ln!'. They f'"~Y th:~r i~ the beRt . Tite t h rre 'rs', rPa~inr and 'rit inr. ancl 'rjchmetic .

And t h" mfnistc>r 1~ ns t:>lktr.- :~hout o funrti.onal P1er:ttP.S and the hon. the f<'TI"<' r PrPrn:ll.'r n,;l-etl hiM tN'"Y ~·oultl he he refel'"r:ln~ to ('radc ~- VI, Vl To ''r 0 l"h:> i Tl'lnn, T h:~te tn h:wc to ~nv thi <: hut we h<>ve a l l't n( funrt fon:~l ill(' ratos with l'rAAP vf who can l·:>rt!Jv rP.;~tl antl lrri te, lo'"~' cPn hnnllv spelJ, who knC\to• verv Htt)e about - that is a fare, Sir - ,_~to """' 0 0 verv 1 itt le nl>ottt F.nl'l i 11h, Ec>r thnt tnntter 0 Th11t i.ll anl'ther l'"t"M11'1r ~o~hv toe neetl thi~> fnrt findinp stu~y <;o thAt the el'IJ)lovers. the huRfnesSM£'1" c-:.n ""lke a r.rntrH•nt i.C\n, can tP.lJ the rdni.ster if they are s;> ti!<fi~tl •·~ th tl>e a ttHtttl<'s And the oualiffcatiC'ns of the 11tuclent~t who 6497

t-<ay 3, 1976 Tape 2391 IB-2 ~; NEARY: are co~ing nut of nur e~ucational Rystem. That ~-s easHy done. It is very easy to poll the employers, the businessmen of this Province, to find out. I have talked to quite a few of them myself who tell me that they are not satisfied with the attitudes and the qualifications of the graduates of our post-secondary educational institutions in this Province. So there must he something ~ong, Sir. I am not saying everytb.il'lg is t~rong. Maybe there is only 0 .1 per cent wrong. But I t~ink it is even a little worst than that.

If we do not recognize the fact that there is a great need at this moment to jt~t take a new fresh look at our whole educational system, then I am afra:t~, ~·r. rhairman, we are making a bi~ mistake. As far, Sir, as the pre-school training is concerned, well I ~•ould say, !J'r. Chairman - and I have had four now start off in the last few years in school. I have got twins :In Grade II - I would say, Sir, apart from the little bit of training maybe that 1 was able to give them fn reading them stories and so forth that the best traininr they got was rirht from the television from Sesame Street.

I certainly do not recomm.end television as a continuous diet for k:lds, Rut I can tell you they learned a lot more from ,~~§arne Street than they learned the first year they were in sc~ool. I will tell you what happens, ~r. Chairman. Sesame ~ is probably the best technique for trai.ning kids today that I have ever seen. ~fuat happens, Sir, they watch - and the kids are really :Interested in it - and they watch Sesame Street continuously and then they p,o from that to Kinderp;arten. Phen they r;et in Kindergarten they are taught all the things that they learned from Sesame Street.

So they spend a whole year in sehool completely bored, compJ etel~· browned off becanse they already kno~-1 this, they have learned :It all from Sesame Street. Now I do not know if that is a weakness, a hazard, a danger or what :It is. But it is certainly there. I can tell the 11'1nis ter that t••hatever it :l.s1 the t.on. minister can describe :1 t how 6498

Tl\-1 • il ifoi'V: - -· -- 1:•:trn"'' the-ir 1\"' ~"'s,:m~ they ]earned to count and thev learnct! nll tonrtto of rhinrto and thPn thE-y 1-·enr 1n Kintlerp.artE>n,antl then they FeTP c-orplc>tel y l,orPrl For a ~·hole vear. T tio n<>t icnow if they should have <>nne totr a1r ht into lrntle Lor ront , lmt nnvt•II:V :ft is I' hit of 11 prohlel!l. . ..,. 11(\I I!'P : T nrn~e • ThP "'"roi~;ter <>rreeto . Pell I tim cer t ain] y gJatl the r:!.nister n~r<>el' hec;:ouse. you """"' , T aM Jiv1 np. ui th it every cl11y. llu t.

Sir , witrout nnyhorly P,ettinp, up in thp l'ousp ;~n<' llttackinr :1tt:1c-l fnr rh~> e<'uc:>r:IC'nnl sytotem , attacl<i.nf• · th.e tenchers, attncldnr. tl·c unlve r sity, ntt:tckinp t hito . " T aM attacltinR nobody. J am tryinp l'r> 'llnke n f<'•·• potoirive , c:C'o!ltr.uctive RU8f7.est1ons to the min:!ster .

He nrc- t!l'fnr rre c<'uc-Mi<>n:tl estimates ancl "l al" tryh11t to ill'press upon thE' f'ol"l"ittee the neetl, ;In "'Y op:lnion, - !l'llybe other members \'1 11 nnt >'~ec it "'Y ~·l'lv - the need for us to tA'I'e 10 pood h11rcl look n<w h<>fnre it $s too late . l'ive or ten years fro"' no~· 1dJl he too l:~te. Tt is !•.,n' tc> rP.cornize the clal"<t~e that is beinr rlone. t:t ir. not one oF thf!~P th:ln$ts thAt Y<'U c<Jn see .

Tt is 1nvisihle pr:>c:tic:all v h•r it i~< trr r e . <:" "'e want to £inti out if we Are 1u~"i!,,l In th" rfrht cltrect1on . lint' t'•c fact thnt the 'larren l>e>ynl r<'MI"'lstoion reported tf'n y<'nrto ·•!'n hA!'I nc> hN1rinr on ~·h<>.t t am talk1nr, ahout at 11ll, none 1r. thfs •-·t'rl<' . Times hnve chanr.ed, ''r. rhaiTll'nn, change al1110st from VCAT tn Yf'AT. '·'e hnve to 1-,c •.o~H 1 :In!! to chanre •dth it. "'he tiroes they 3re achanging. Tt ;i~ a job to l<.eer ur with thE'I". "ayhe rhe ll'injster :-ntl hito <>ff1.cinls have tlone the hest thev can.

I am nc>t <"Onrlemninr the rrinister ;onrl his officials, not in the sl:lp.htest, htt, "ir, T think they qhnulc' "llow the rarents to l1;ove tne>re 1nrmt in tl' c.>clucn t 1 l'rt rc.>c;ouse under the l'n1.tec' NationR Const:l tution of Pu1'13n "ir l:tJ<, ~ir, on!' l'f the clouscs in that constitution is th;ot the parents 6499

"av 3, 1976 Tape 2391 ''R. NF.A~Y: have the right to choose the kind of education that they ~J;mt for their children. Up to now we have not had that opportunity. '<T'. t"lrr>PHY: Would the hon. member .,erm:tt me? ~"1'. NEAJ?Y: ¥R. t't''P.PHY: Take over. It is very much indirectly the same thing. ~~ far IB-4 as PTA's are concerne<l, the hon. ro.el'!her does not think the parents ~re gettinp enough in.,ut in direct relation to the curriculum, is that What the hon. member refers to? Or in what other way would he feel? I think we are all interested. '"1'. NF.AT'Y: The hon. minister mentions the PTA.

Well I have h~d occas:fnn i.n the last few years to attend some of these meetings. ~nd you are either given a bunch of tickets to sell,or you are told about the car~ rame that is coming up 1 or we are going to raise funds for this or that or the other thing. It is very seldom you talk about the curricnlu,..., very seldom. I have not been at one yet. There are times durinr, the year, three or four occasions during the year ,,,hen you can nrop dm·m and talk to the teacher about your child's report cnrcl. That :Is a very valuable thing. I have never missed one yet.

T always p,o and talk to the teachers and thank r,od so far I do not have too many problems 1>dth the kids. But the PTA I wonJ.c1 .:ay - ''R. ~'lmPHY: BriJlant like the father, I suppose. '"" • NF..A 'RY : Hell I hope so. I hope so. In all modesty, Sir , T hope so. But, ~r. r.ha:lrman, J do hope that the minister 'Jill not take thiR as a personal affront, thl'lt the gove=ent ,,,iJ 1 not taJ.-e it as a pol:! tical issue. It i !l not.

It is just that I feel myself from all the sir;ns that I have seen, from all the th:l .ngs that I have renil, from all the things I have heard on radio and on teJevision and in the ne,•spapers, I believe now that the time has come when we must take a look at our whole erlucational system, especially our post- Sf!conclary eclucational system,to see if we are gettinp. the pro.per vAlue for the doJJars that we are spending in education,llllrl above aJ.J to see if we are header'! in the r1.p.ht direction :In the f:lelc1 of ~rluc~tion in th1~ Province. 6500

' 1:1\1 1, )!)7f\ Tnpe ~J OL !B-5 The h('o . ~·io:l~tPT of I'tluclltion. ) ' !' !l(H"!'F. : "r. ~"'hni"l":m. T h;ovr> been trying to pet in for :> fe•·• cl:w~ :me! T t'~'"Y to he :'lh le ·ro responcl nfter every t'I-IO or three !':nP:IlYPTS hecRuJ<e it i ~' c>uHe some thin!! to tt~ke in the <'ebate that is ro in r, on an~ re!'pon<' to ;it n11 nt one time . So I hearcl the tlphntPs t<'li"-Y :md " tnt of positive topics heinft discuss ed, poo:;'ltive itlt>.'l!':.

N0"' T !·<lnt to ht>R;in ~lj th the jclea of the n:lms anil ohj ectives ~,.,..;n hec<~nse it 1 ... thE> neconi' t:l!'le r hnve h<>n to react to H,Rnd to the cn!"'"tm i ty iorut into eclucptjo'f> in r-ener>~l .

I reacted the other c1:>v hv !'t<~tiop thnt \>'e <lo h:1v(> general ailols nnt1 ol>jectives tha.t can on1 y )>r> jTPner>~l ,,.nd they can only 1-e l'linil'lal in thE' sense of the word clmt i r i!' the <><wernl"eT>t 's outline o40 what '~>'(' thinl- js the hare That il' why ~;e have very s<'pl>ist1r.;otetl orr.p ni?. lltions arnnn~ tile Province ;in school boarcl ,..,ffrceF< t o snpf'lC'went and to develop t ·he cletaHecl phjlo soph:l,e s anrl :lims 11nd <'hjectives t'l suH thf' nP.ects of rhe people rjRht there nn rhc ~'r "t· '1'1-:-t i!': hei np ~Qne mid that is hei np promoter. 6501

}lay 3, 1976 Tape No. 2392 NM- 1 HR. HOUSE: Now, you talk about direction and people input. Mr. Chai:rman, I do not know how many hon. merobers know this but we seek continuously to have local input from people outside.

We make a deliberate attempt to say to the public, "You have got a responsibil:j.ty to your children and you have got to impart that responsibility to us, tell us what it is!' And hon. members must realize that it was only last year that we went to considerable expense at the Department of Education to bring together people in districts, Our officials went out from the Curr~culum Division, went all over the Province, set up meetimgs of parents and the general public.

We even played down the idea of having teachers involved for the simple reason we thought that the t~achers would colour it their way too much, and the :fdea was for th~ to tell us what they wanted in education. Not only di? we go out, bring our resources to them and direct them, we planned the areas, sent people out and then of course they came together and then we had one general meeting here in St.

John's where they imparted the kind of thing that they thought that we should be putting into the curriculum, We are following that up by bringing together teachers in the fields, supervisors,to take this .aterial that we got from the parents. So,you know,there is a constant attempt to do these things and to keep the people involved. You talk about the Home and School Assoct•tions, you know, people say all they did ~as raise money.

I ·said the other day, I made the statement that since we took the fund raising ability away from them they have not gotten together and I was a superintend~. t of an area, a supervising principle,and I had Home and Schoc!ll Associations very active, and very active in curriculum knowing what is going on .once a month. But the thing died down as soon as we took away fhat cohesive force from them, that ability they had to raise money. Now I will go on to the attitudes. It has been espoused here,you know,that we have got to teach attitudes, That is a very 6502

~lay 3, 1976 Tape No. 2392 Nl'l - 2 'fR. HOUSE: strong statement, teach attitudes. I wonder can we teach attitudes1 It is certainly an academic question, a very academic - question, and certainly on~ that has been talked about loud and long in education circles, And the hon. member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) mentioned it very explicity in both his speeches that I have heard in the last two or three days.

He said, "You know, it depends on the parents what kind of pupil you get, not only for content, not only for the development of skills but more important hy attitude," and there has been some pretty convincing studies done to shm~ that you cannot teach attitudes. Attitudes are something that evolves from the community and if we have r.ot a poor ~·JOrk ethic - people have heen saying this, the hon. member for LaPoile (~r. Neary) has talked about the idea of the lack of productivity- I do not think you· can place that blame on the schools.

We are trying our best to do the jobs in training people,and I mentioned the other day the fact that we ~'ere getting a better calibre student now into the vocational schools and into the College of Trades and Technology and in the Fisheries College. But the attitudes towards work has t;ot to be emulated from the people around you~and when you have had a milieu, an emphasis on socialism, welfare and this sort of thing throughout the past quarter of a century, no wonder we got a poor ~·Jork f'thic, no wonder we p;ot people who have r,ot a poor attitude to"r<~rds 'mrk. MR.

NEARY: Tlut He have to change that, do we notr l"l'. HOU~F:: He are trying to change jt. He are constantly tr~rinf~ ro cbfl~' e it. nne of the reasons now wry we have got, for instance,twenty-five per cent of our people in pre-vocational education is because we are trying to devel c'J' ir. them "ork habits, and that is one of the reasons also why we want to get more pre- vocational eduation and that is the reason why we are trying to get so many jndustrial arts and home eco.nomics teachers in our school is to try and teach details of work.

So that we can try through that to develop different ar.d better attitudes. 6503

May 3, 1976 Tape No. 2392 NM- 3 1-ll!. HOUSE: Now then with respect to - MR. LUSH: __ _ Would the minister permit a question? Tb.P. hon. member for Terra Nova. '1-'R. LUSH: I wonder if the minister would agree that you have cettainly jn the schools have the responsibility to expose students.to issues and they have to discuss them, certainly I agree with not to teach them, certainly from the point of view of indoctrinization but they have to be exposed to various issues . in order to - And there are cases where the homes do not do this sort of thing so the whole school has got to take care of this so~t of thing.

Ml. HOUSE: Mr. Chairman, I have stated that is what we are trying to do,as I said, the development of a good attitude towards work for our programmes and so on. Now ~~ith respect to pre-school, I agree in part with the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) when he talks about the exposure that young children are getting today to the media - now albeit some of the exposure they are getting is not that good - but there are programmes that are very good and we would hope that as time progresses that there will be better programmes for children to be exposed to.

But I agree also with him on the point that a lot of young children come in today, and you are supposed to have a mental age 1they tell me,of six years old to be able to read ,, Well we have got a lot of young people coming in today who can read, read already,and the fact is in a lot of cases they are not challenged, they are bored and of course again what we put out from the Department of Education as a curriculum guide for kindergarten and pre-reading is just 'liYhat is said 1 and there is no reason in the world why the schools themselves cannot advance beyond that and that is why we have built up expertise in these schools for them to do it.

And they have go tae go ahead to do it. There is nobody who is going to keep a child .back because he knot~s this and therefore he can stand still. 6504

Tape No. 2392 NM- 4 "R. ITO!lSE: But the pre-school, it would be sort of expensive. There are a number of th:lngs we are talking about now. We are talking about, as I mentioned the other ~ay, the idea of r,ivinp, help to the more severe cases 1 and of course the Department of Social '~elfare is already doing some part of this and of course there are some groups of _people who have banded together and got some modicum of pre-school education going. There are a lot of other priorities right now that goes beyond bringinp; about a fullfledged pre-school programme.

First of all there has got to be identification problems and the first step we are taking towards some of that is,of course 1 trying to identify some of our most basic needs and that is being developed at the present time. ~ow there are a number of things that came up today, Mr. C~airman, that T '·Till embody as I p;o along. But I want to mention some of the t.hinp;s referred to a couple of days ago in the debate,and somebody t:.Jk.ed about the community use of schools, and this is a thing I am very strong on, the community use of schools.

Now as everybody 1 s aware in Ne~~foundland , the responsibility for education rests '~ :Uh a numher of levels; it rests with us, it rests with the churches and of course the churches and the state together r,1vE' tlHl.t authority basically to school boards and one of the things schonl hoards have the responsibility for is the operation and the usc of t!->eir Rchools, That :Is school board responsibility. But I think our efforts have been to try and promote the community use of schools very much i.n the department, because we have had two or t hree sturltes done on it.

He have also called a conference of all school hoards jn Gander t~vo or three years ar:o and put forth the ld0ns. t\nd I am very happy to say, ~lr. r.hairman, that there is a lot of usP beinp; mane of a lot of our schools. Particularly I can only <JUote [rom- well 1 the han. member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir (t-<r. Simmons) mPntioned a community of Springdale. I can mention many other commun1 tj_es around the Province where there is a great use being made of 6505

fay 3, 1976 Tape No. 2392 NM- 5 MF. ROUSE: school buildings. One of the uses of cour.se., they are even using it as public libraries, some of the schools are being used as. And of course their gyxnqasiUIJII·facilities being used by the comnnmi ties and the sports g:r:oups. Now that is not universal. There are a lot of schoGls not avaf1able.. But the best we can do is to promote the idea and I think we are having a lot of saccess in doing that.

One of the little things that irb 1le about it Qd of C011'I'8e it is ~e of the litt~e problems that is against the centralization of schools,and that is the fact that pupUs, in some eases high school pupils are leaving the schools at two-thirty in the afternoon, there a'E'e some cases wheie that is happening in Newfoundland. /uld now wh,atever advantages there are to the "x" for eztra curricular a~tivities 1 or for cultural activities, that is gone when a student has got to get on the bus • And that is all ,., ,. ,.

'1'11pe 2393 IB-1 ,.,.. -~_lOl'~f::.i. . :\R n TE>slllt nf thE' f:1ct th~t l'Choe>ls, tll<~" -r:nn n sort of '~h11t \·7C nRerl to cnlJ "' str11i p:ht Rchonl one tt!"e. They jn11t h<~ve a short hrellk for lunch <~n.-1 they stl!f'P:er that.

Now in l'lY W<'Y of thi.nki.np. not onJy Rhoul r1 there he 11 short J unch pedorl, there shonlrl be an extenclec1 lnnr:h period hf'c:~use thnt 'mulc1 he the t:lll'e the stuclents frnT" the ('OT'llllnnit:l~>s nntsicle couJcl ta1··P p:ut i.n thE'ir inte>r-sports <lctjvitieR :mel the othf'r cnl turaJ act:lv:lti.es that go on in the schools. f'omet:lmes penp] e arru<> ;mn s"y - 'IT'. NEAl'Y: Honlcl that me11n thEm they Houle! pet out possibly later in thE' eveninp;? ''""· Hnmm: Yes, of course.

Th~tt rationale for Jettinp: theM r;et nnt earJv is th(' f11ct th11t thr>v cnn p:o on hol!'e nnrl rlo "'h"t thev htwe to rlo. '!ine ch11nce~< n11t of ten tl1ey have noth:lng tn no except p;o ilm'tl to ~'01"e t.o'"'n c:ounc1J ofHce ;mtl h::>.rl~er the council :Into try:ln,r tn huilrl a yontl• center for them hecause they have nothing to c1o. ''"~'· rmAPY: Tf the hn~< :Is there ~tt three o'clod· they h1'1ve to catch the l,us. T f it 1 e11ves, there :1 s no "'"Y they c8n pet home. ~:_-~~lf;J'.:..:.__ YE>~, th.1t is rir;ht. Thev could use it as preparation time. "!'.

Hf'lTSP.: Yes,tqeJl there :Is a lot of preparation t1me that coulc:' he rlone in hetPeen aJ~o. So, Hr. f'hairm;,n, that is on the community use of schools. T 'q"n t tf' ro h11.cl: no~, to the junior col lere. The hon. Member has J eft the roow - T !"entionecl this tre other Clay - tl,e hon. member for T.:tl'ni 1 e (><r. "l.e,.ry) - an~ r taJkP<' about the .iunior col lep.:e. No" T ~mnt to say it Apa:!n ;mel he i~< <~bsent.

The junior coller:e is " ful)-fledperl iunior coJJep:e C!o:!.nr the first year, two ye>11.rs of degree programmes in arts and science, fullfledged, and you get the s..-r'le thin!!', the same proprAmme. J>erhaps not so w:l.rle a variety at the present time as you get here at the wain campus, but you ret " fuJ lv f1eclrPcl two ye"r pror,ramme. Last year "'e started it 'qith a nne year prorrAmme and next ve11r coll'in~ up, I suppose - and I "m not ;rhl e to 'HIV tl' at :In ful] rletail yet - it \·ras p] anned to have a fuJlfleclgecl 6507

¥ay 3, 1976 Tape 2393 ~rr. 1!0USF.: ~econd year propramme. No~' we wanted to go further than that a] so. I was an active member. J was on the advisory committee of that college for a number of years. l~ell I was the first one and I was on 1t JB-2 until T ,,,as elected here. We wanted also to give further services, to give c.oJ'11l'unit~.· services such as upgrading for husiness ancl :lnclu~tnr. He aJ so wanted to give upgrading programmes for young people who felt that Grade XI was not far enonr:h for them to go, hut they ~mntecl to take another year general education.

T;Je thought .,_,e t·muJd no tha.t if the demand were great enouph llnd :If ,,,e hail the space. ~o, to cal1 that a plor:l fied high school 1 of course that is not n c1eropatory term. I de> not see anything t~ronp td.th that term 'pl.or:lf:l.ed high school', It is just extending general education and there is no thin!' '"onr: w:!.th it. Now ~71th respect to Gra.de VII ,I think that came on the carpet a numher of years ago, ahout four years ago, and it t••as the object of A lot of study and a lot of debate.

I re!'1ember being :Involved Hith it and a lot of bon. me111bers :fn this House,or not a lot but a number of them t<ere involved w-Ith i.t. "Four years ago the school boards in th:l.s Province feJ t they were not ready for Grade XII, and that we should. make a more detailed. study of that kind of programme. The l•larren Commission r>eport sur:gested a series of junior colleges. They never suggested Gracle YII,to my vnowledge. They suggested a series of junior colleges across the Province that would replace the need for a Grade YII.

But we. just started a junior college last year and I think we are goinp: to have to see how that works out. On the other hand ,there :1 s nobocly has their mind closed to Grade XII,but I am not so sure that I no agree with what a lot of people 1 s concept is of Grade XII. 'T'here is a good rationale. There is a good argument. If it rel)nired eleven years or twelve years,because we have twelve years in school now, if it required tt•elve years in school ten years ap,o • perhaps with the· quadrupling of knowledge like we 6508

T:tpP 2393 !13-3 ,~. l'"''~E; ~------ l1:1Ve h:.cl in the ] a~t number of years, -perhaps ;mother yc;t.r is necessary. But you have r,ot to think 10bont the soci:t] :IJ