Volume XLI Friday Province of Newfoundland FORTY- FIRST GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Second Session VERBATIM REPORT (Hansard} Speaker: Honourable Thomas Lush [Preliminary Transcript] Num ber 9 23 March 1990

The House met at 9:00a.m. MR. SPEAKER (Lush): Order, please! On behalf of han. Members I t.o~Jould like to welcome to the galleries today fifty Grade V to V11 students from Our Lady of Mercy School, St. John 1s, accompanied by their two teachers Georgina Long and Marjorie Cooper. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: r_ .. would.also like to welcome to the galleries eighteen people from the YWCA Bridges Program for immigrant women St. John 1s. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Statements by Ministers MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Health . MR. DECKER: Mr.

Sp~~aker, Speech, the announc1~d a coverage from per patient period to one patient per period. in the 1988 Budget Minister of Finance reduction in vision onE! insured service in a twelve month insured service fotn twenty-four month The excerpt from the Budget, Mr. Speaker, I have here. covetnage tAJas Since optometry introduced in NeiArfoundlandE~rs haVE! this service to the the service will now 1981 many once every once per certainly two years year.

This provides for Ll March 23, 1990 availed of point where be insured instead of frequency reasonable Vol XLI coverage given the demand that exists for a variety of health care services. I am pleased to advise hon. Members that Government has reviewed all aspects of this policy and effective April 1, 1990, MCP coverage for eye examinations will be reinstated to one insured service in a twelve month period for certain age groups of people. More spE!Cifical1y, Mr.

Speaker, persons who are eighteE•n yec:uns of age and younge•r and sixty.- .. five years of age and over will once again bE• entitled to COVE!rage fat~ one insured vision service in ~ twelve month period. ~~ The purpose of this chang~':! is to recognize that vision changes occur more frequently in these age groups. For that reason the Government has made the decision to change the present coverage. As of April 1, 1990, our younq people, Mr. ~peaker, and our senior citizens will once again be entitled to an annual vision examination, if necessary, r·endered by optometrists .or by general practitioners.

All other nineteE!n to group t.o~Ji.ll for one twenty-four residents in the sixty-four years age continUE! to be insutnecl examination every months. Mr. Speaker, for the information of the general public, I would point out that. undE!r thE! terms of MCP part.icipat.ion, pract:.i t.tonE!Ins are required to provide patients t.o~rith tAJril:.ten p1nescriptions at the t.irn~~ of SE!Invice, if e~ye~glassE•s ar'E' lnE!quired. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. No. 9 Rl

SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MS DUFF: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The hon . the Member for St . John's East. MS DUFF: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I wo u 1 d 1. ike to thank the M :i. n is t: e r for providing me shortly before the House opened with a copy of his Ministerial Statement. Certainly on behalf of the Members on this side of the House I would commend the Minister for his review and the changes that he has brought in the vision care policy.

This particular Budget that he refers to in 1988 which reduces the number of vision care from twelve months to twenty-four months; the matter t.uas brought to the att;ention of the Minister shortly after that during the 1988 period. The Minister of the day did agree to unde~take a review of the situation particularly in view of ·the changes that do occur in the under eighteen and over sixty-Five age groups . I would point out to the Minister that it is not a full reversal of po1icy as he has stated but simply for· those particular age groups.

UnFortunately, as the Minist10.~r is aware, the Government of the day changed so that the recommended review was not completed during that period. The review has now been completed and the chang~~s made and I am very happy about that matter. rhe policies of fiscal policies frequently undergo Government, the particularly, review and I L2 March 23, 1990 Vol XLI think that. is only Fiscally wise. I would anticipate for instance that. the Ministe1n of Finance lAii .11 shortly be making a rE!ViE!lA.I of the impact of his payrol1 tax and that is in the norma1 course of Government policy .

But I think the bottom line is that as health critic I am very pleased to see that the twelve--month vision carE! has been reinstated for the under nineteen and over sixty -five. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! Oral Questions MR. RIDEOUT : Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: The han :- the Opposition . MR . RIDEOUT: L..eadetn of thE! Mr. Speaker, I havE:~ a question For the Minister of Finance.

Would the Minister of Finance inform the House whether or not projected salary increases for · Government employees whose contracts expire, many of them around the end of this month , and for teaclic:~rs tAJhose contract has alrE•ady expir·ed , have been included in the salary details of various Government Departments, or the a·Ffected Government Departmen ts, which was tabled in this HousE:~ oF Assc:'rnb1y with his Budget a WE!ek ago, yesterday? MR. SPEAKER: ·:r-Fi·~~-Fion-:--······t:'h e Minis t e t" of Finance . DR . KITCHEN : Mr. Speaker, amounts are in the Budget, but:. they specifically allocated positions.

No. 9 inc1uded are not to R2

MR. RIDEOUT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, with a supplementary. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker. I refer the Minister. for example. to the Field Services Division of the Department of Fisheries. That Division had twenty-five employees last year. it has twenty-five employees this year, and the salary Budget is projected to increase by $55.988. or 8 per cent. Now there is a normal step progression and there is a normal length of service progression, which would account for about 4 per cent.

The question is, would the Minister tell the House whether the Government intends to try to settle with its General Service employees for· a wage increase of about 4 per cent in this round of contract- talks? MR. SPEAKER: "The hon·:···· .... :t:""he Minister of Finance. DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker. I would not like to answer that question at this time. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition . MR. RIDEOUT: Exhibit one. Mr. Speaker! Lt:~t me ask the Minister a question re exhibit two. Let me refer the Minister to the salary for teachers in the Department of Education.

That · Budget is projected to increase this year by $33 million, or 9 per cent over last year. Again. taking into account length of service and step progression, we come up with 4 per cent. Will the Minister confirm L3 March 23. 1990 Vol XLI for the House, and for the teachers of this Province, that the Government intends to try to settle with its teachers for a contract increase of approximately 5 per cent in this round of negotiations? M~..:__]A KE R: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . The President of Treasury Board. MR. BAKER : Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is obvious what is happening here. and I would say to the Leader of the Opposition, lJ.Jhen he is rt:~ady to listen, that he knot.us full well that in salary proj e c tio·ns, or any projections in the Budget, especially salary projections, l:.here a numbE!In of factors that are included, that the Budget is an estimate or ·a guideli .ne ·that is not har·d and fast, and that money can -be transferred from one Head to another and so on. He is trying to create the impression that when a Head is put there. this is an ironclad rule and can never be changed.

I say to him that if he has done his calculations and hE! sees that thc:!rl':! ar1~ increases in terms of salary votc:~s. th~~se increases involve a lot of things, not just the base salary. ·rhese matters are matters for negotiation, and we ar'E! not going to play his little game and get tied into making cornndtrnE!nts hE!rE! in the House of Assembly. I believe in the collective bargaining process. if he does not. MR. SIMMS : That is a joke, after the statement you made the other day. No. 9 R3

MR. RIDEOUT : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition . MR. RIDEOUT: Mr-~pe;··a-k-er, the President of Treasury Board starb::!d the garne in this House two or three days ago when he made a very provocative statement. MR. SIMMS: That is right . Right on! MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I know there are various factors that come together at the end of the process that can affect the amount that you gue stima te or try to budget, but, Mr.

Speaker, tAJill the President of Treasury Board confirm this, that there is notAJhere close to budget projections for the General Servi .c e, · MOS, Teachers or any other group which will have to bargain tAli th' t.hi s Government over the next several months, that the salary projections for wage increases for those groups com e nowhere close to 25 per cent. MR. WINDSOR: It is obvious . MR . RIDEOUT: That is obvious . MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the GovernmE!nt House Leader. MR. BAKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I do not know where he is getting his 25 per cent. MR. RIDEOUT: Ask Mr. March .

L4· March 23, 1990 Vol XLI MR . BAKER : is nowhere or 35 per Nowhere in I have no concept. It. close to 50 per cent cent or 25 per cent. this Budget is there for salary increases cent. a projection of 25 per MR. RIDEOUT : Twenty:_four . .M R_J_~~ -~ R : Or twenty-four per cent . MR. RIDEOUT: No? What did you announce Budget Day? MR . BAKER : I would like to simply add that any further statements concerning the collective bargaining process a1ong those lines would be irresponsible on my part, and it would be an interference in the process.

All I can say to l":.he Member is that we have presented a Budget to this House, which includes . salar·y incr·eases. WE! ar'E! · gain~ through a collective bargaining proCE!SS which I bE!1i.evr::• in very deeply. We will go through the collective bargaining process, and whatever we arrive at through that collecU .ve:~ barga:i.ning process, provision tAri.ll be in the Budget for that. MR. DOYLE: Mr. SpE!aker . MR. SPEAKER : '1·1-le_ ...... hon -·~-- thE:~ ME!rnber For rlat"bour Main. MR. DOYLE : Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the hon. the Minister of Employment and Labour Rela Uons (Ms Cowan).

The MinistE•r tAJi11 be atAJare that there prese:'nl:.ly exists in the Province a Wo1nkers' AppeaJ. Tribunal, and l:.he tAJhole pui"pOSE! of No. 9 r~ 4

that Tribuanal is to be last appeal when you dotJJn to it, and ·.H. is by the worker to be a last appeal if he has turned down by the Compensation Commission. a court of get right considt::11ned court of his claim Workers 1 I am not saying it is a widespread thing, but is the Minister aware that the Commission is, in some cases, challenging the decisions of the Appeal Tribunal and, in some cases, is trying to overturn the decisions of the Tribunal? After all, we consider it to be a court of last appeal for the injured workers, so why would the Commission be doing that? MR.

SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations. MS COWAN : The han. Member is indeed correct, Mr. Speaker. That is happening. Some of ·the decisions of the Appeal Tribunal are being reviewed by the Workers 1 Compensation Commission. We are, at this stage, having l:he matter looked at to see if, indeed, that is done in other provinces, and considering whether or not we want that to continue in this Province. MR. SPEAKER: The han . the Member for Harbour Main. MR. DOYLE : Mr. Speaker, I can tell the Minister that it is not a very widespread thing in other provinces in Canada.

The Sec·tion of the Act tJ.Jhich perrn:i.ts that to happen is

Section 21 (7) of the Act. Since the Commission do not want the authority to overrule the Tribunal but they have the authority under

Section 21 (7) of the Act, would the Minister LS March 23, 1990 Vol XLI consider looking at the legislation with a view to removing t.hat

section of the Act, since the Commission have stated that they do not tJJa n t it or n E! e d it? MR. SPEAKER: Th_e_ han.· the M:lnister of Employment and Labour Relations. MS COWAN: Yes·-:-·---certainly I am quitE! interested in having a look at that. I do not k notAl tJJhethE!r l:hE• han. Member for Harbour Main is quite correct when he says the Commission does not want to be doing it. I do not wheth.::1r tJJe can make that tAiidespread statE!rrt~~nt. at this stage, but, yes, indeed I am looking at it, and I am glad for the question today in the House. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main. MR.

DOYLE : I would say to the Minister I am pretty certain the Commission does not want that authori ·ty, and they tJ.Jould like to see that SE!Ct"i.on of the Act removed. With respect to tht~ Tribuna1 and the whole process, agclin, Mln. Speaker, I know MHA 1 s in the House have been quite busy representing workers at some of these Appeal Tribunals. I would ask the Minister if she would look at the possibility of putting in p1ace a workers 1 advocate and an employers 1 advocate, number one, and is she looking at the possibility of making the Tribunal a full-time one? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. thE:1 Ministe1n of Employment and Labour Relations . No. 9 RS

MS COWAN: Again, thank you for the questions. First of all, I have not looked into the matter of making them a full-time appeal board. I think they are handling quite expeditiously the case that are coming before them this particular year. Now if we find there is a slo1.1.1down and cases are not being attended to as they should, we will look for the reasons. And if hiring a full-time board is the only way it can be resolved, of course we would only be too glad to entertain that. YolJr other question was 1negarding a workers' advocate.

That is a position that has been brought to my attention quite frequently by unions and employers since I became Minister. The matter is one I have mentioned to the Chairperson of the Board, and it is being looked at, but I cannot give you . any promises as to whether it will be realized or not. MR. SIMMS : Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader. MR. SIMMS: Opposition House Mr . Speaker, a couple of days ago I gave notice to the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations about a matter which I would like to raise today.

Having given her an opportunity to review the situation, I would now like to ask her can she confirm whether or not she received a letter, dated January 30, from the steam plant power engineers at the Abitibi--Price PapE!r MiLl in Grand Falls outlining some very serious concerns about the company's plan to reduce the number of engineers L6 March 23, 1990 Vol XLI at the mill's pressure plant? If she can confirm that, can she advise the House, also, as to what action she has taken to respond to their letter?

Has she, for example, sent a team of qualifted engineers from her Department to investigate this very serious situation, the serious all.E!gations contained, and has she taken slE!pS to rectify what, in thE:dr wo1nds, could be a potentially dangerous situation? MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations . MS COWAN : I thank the hon. the Member For Grand Falls for giving me notice that he would be bringing the question, giving me an opportunity to check my files . We did receive a letter on February 20.

The letter was dated January 20; but we 1neceived it: on ~ebruary 20, from the ~roup to whom you refer. We did go out . Mr. May, the Acting Director, and Mr. Ed Eastman, thE! Boi1eln and Pressure Vessel Inspector for' the Grand Falls area, went out and had a meeting with the power engine ers and the management at Abitibi-Price, and the matt er is now being referred to the Board of Examiners.

Now the Board of Examiners will take a look and sE•e if lhE!InE:~ is any threat to the safety of the individuals . who ar'~'! working in those particular area s of Lhe plant because of thE! proposed reduction in staff in that area. MR. SPEAKER : ThE:~ hon . the Leader. MR. SIMMS : No. 9 Opposition HOUSE: ~ R6

Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the Minister.

Since the Abitibi engineers outlined in their letter that they feel the proposed layoffs contemplated by the company is being done simply as a cost-cutting measure, using the shut-down of the No. 6 paper machine merely as an excuse - that is their allegation - does she agree with the workers u.Jhen they say in their letter that no really significant changes have occurred in that plant since the last plant registration was done in 1984. certainly not enough to warrant such a reduction in manpower. and that the number in place now is really the number required under the law, that is the boiler and pressure law, for a safe operation?

MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations . MS COWAN: Thank you ' again, Mr. Speaker . It is not my position to make that statement. The Examining Committee of the boiler and pressure vessel and compressed gas people will have a loa k at that. and they 1.uill be the ones to make that particular decision, taking into account the point you just made. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, just a short final supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: The han . the Leader. MR.

SIMMS : Opposition House I appreciate the Minister 1 s response with respect to the broad issue and the concerns expressed L'7 March 23, 1.990 Vol XLI by the engineers about: the safety features and the safE!ty factor. I was a bit concerned about the allegation, or the concern, expressed in their letter with respect to something like this transpiring. which would really be a contravention or a breach of the law.

That would clearly come under the Minister 1 s responsibility as opposed to the Boar·d of Examiners, and I am wondering if she thinks thE!I"I" is any val'.idity to that, or has shli:~ had a look at that yet? MR. SPEAKER: The hon·-:- thE:~ Minister of Employment and Labour Relations . MS COWAN: If, indeed, there is some breaking of the law, that lAJill be reported to me. If my inspectors feel thE! law has been impinged in some way, then the matter would . be rE!fE•rJ"~:!cl by me to Justice. M-R. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Grand Bank . MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr . Speaker.

My question is to thE! Minis t E•J" of Fisheries. A few mont hs ago, when National Sea announced the closurE• of the St. John 1 s Southside plant with the total concurrence of the Provincial Government, at t.ht::' t.i.me the Premier left everyone :in the Province with t he unders t anding that if thE!re lJJas a choice to be made between St. John 1 s and Burgeo remaining open. then Burg eo lJJould be the choice. The community of Burgeo is reeling No. 9 Wl

this morning from the recent NatSea announcement that that particular facility may be operated for six months this year. There is still a lot of uncertainty attached to that . Would the Minister inform the House if he has contacted National Sea Products, and what rationale has the company given for the sudden change in operational plans for the Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries . MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker -;- the

preamble to the hon. Member 1 s question is ·totally fa1se. At no time did this Government or the Premier indicate the preference for keeping the Burgee plant open as opposed to the St. John 1 s plant. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Yes. Yes you did. MR. W. CARTER: Abs.olut:efynot, Mr. Speaker! 'That

preamble is false. This morning, I was advised that NatSea will be making some changes in their management plan for this year, based on thE• fact that the St. John 1 s plant will remain open until August 5th. Co.nsequently, to get the raw material to keep that plant operating, from their initial date of, I believe March 5th, when they were going to close it, then they are going to have to take it from some other plant, and, in this case, I am afraid the plants at Burgee and Arno1.d 1 s Cove tJ..Jill suffer. They are also closing their plant in Nova Scotia, granted not for the same length of l:ime.

But the plants in Burgee and Arnold 1 s Cove will be closed for a period to L8 March 23, 1990 Uo1. XLI compensate for the amount of fish that will be needed to keep the St. John 1 s operation going. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Member for Grand Bank . r.'IR ... MATTHE;.~.§: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . The two major fish companies in this Province, NatS•:?.a and Fishery Products International, have been anything but consistE:~nt sincE! this whole fisheries crisis has started. SOME HON. MEMBERS: He-ar, hear! _ .. _ MR.

MATTHEWS: We hear them saying one thing one week, and thE! next week go:i.ng and doing something completely opposite. Can the Minister infor'rn the House if this year National Sea Products intends · to buy the inshore fish that has been ordinarily bought by National Sea, some· 4 millton to 5 million pounds, alid procE!SS it ·at.: the St. John 1 s plant? MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr . Speaker, last year the St. John 1 s inshore fishery produced a total harvest of, I believe, around 4 millton pounds. My understanding is that this year fishermen in St.

John 1 s will have an outlet for their product. I understand NatSea will be vying for that fish, and, I am told, plants in l:he Conception Bay ar•:=!a will be looking for that fish as well. So not only will inshore fishermen for their product No. 9 the St. John 1 s have a HliH'kE•t this year, but, R8

I suggest, Mr. Speaker, there will be competition by the resource-hungry plants in the area to buy f i s h f r 0.1n the i n s h ore fishermen in the St. John 1s area. MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Member for Grand Bank. MR. MATTHEWS: A final supplementary to t h~~ Minister, Mr. Speaker. In light of the Government 1s $3 miJ.lion offer to National Sea Products, tAli th this recent change in plans by NatSea with regard to all its operation in the Province, what impact wiJ.l that now have on the $3 million offer? Will Government offer the total $3 million to NatSea, or tAJill there be some change in that monetary offer?

MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Fisheries . MR. W. CARTER: An agreement ".is an agreement. I think the han. Member is aware of the fact that the Government did, in fact, undertake to e:~nable the two opera tors, F PI and Na tS1~a, to extend the termination period of their workers. And the fact i~hat NatSea and the union, by the way, have agreed to continue operating the plant until August 5, after which date they will start converting to a shrimp processing operation, naturally Government will honour its agreemen ·l. I think the han.

Member would be the first one to stand in his place and condr,~mn Government if we t~o.Jere to try and renr:'ge on that offE!r. We have no intention of doing that. We will honour that agreement. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker . L9 March 23, 1990 Vol XLI MR. SPEAKER : The hon . the Member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, another quesU.on foJ" the Minister of Fisheries. I should say that I hope the Minister has changed his opinion as to the viability of the Piccadilly Fish Plant. Some of his comments, I think, were unfortunate, but many people knowledgeable about the plant do not feel that way.

In view of the fact, Mr. Speaker, that various intE•re:~st groups, such as the Port au Port Development Assod.ation, the Union and the Fishermen, have expressed the opinion that it wouJ.d be easier to find an operator for the plant if it were equipped, and in vi~:·lAJ of the fact that the p1.ant cou1d be equipped for approximately $150,000, and there is equipment around the Province, lAJouJ.cl the Minister consider placing equipment in the Piccadilly Fish Plant? MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Fisheries . MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speake:~r. again the hon.

MernbE!r 1 s preambJ.e lo thE~ questi .on is not cor1nect. I lAJi11 admit that t;..Jhen I anst~.H,~red that question previously I expressed some concE:~rns as to l~he avaiJ.ability of the resource to keep that plant operating. I think what has beE!n happE!ning in that plant in recent years sp1~aks for i tseJ.f; there:~ has bE! en a lnE•a1 serious problem there. I have expressed ·t:h:is opinion to the Port au Port Developm~;ont GJ"oup No. 9 R9

and others, that we will do all we can within our power to try and attract a new operator for the plant, but we cannot make fish. If the fish are not there, or if the potential is not there, the, there is not much we can do about it. But, certainly, we will work with the group in an effort to find a new operator for that plant. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the Member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, the question I asked the Minister was would he consider equfpping the plant. The plant is bare at the prE!Sent timE!. Would the Minister answer that question?

The second question I have is, would the Minister consider advertising? I think there was an understanding between . the Development Association and the Minister's Department that the Minister would advertise for an operator fo1~ the plant. Would the Minister consider equipping th~::~ plant, as it is bare at the present time and very unattractive, because the last operator took all the equipmen£ From it, and would he consider advertising for an operator for the plant? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries . MR. W. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker, I do not think it is going to be necessary to spend money on big, full-page ads telling Newfoundland people that the Piccadilly - AN HON. MEMBER : No is saying that . MR. W. CARTER: Ll.O March 23, 1990 Vol XLI Well, even half·-page ads or a quarter page. - fish plant is up for takes. 1 think most people in the industry know exactly what plants are available.

Now, with respect to the other par·t of his question, for which I apologize for not dealing 1.uith in my answer, if an operator comes along and makes a r1:~asonable proposal to th~;:1 GoVE!I~nrnent ··- 1 all'l not going to make a commitment now that we are going to spend $200,000 or $300,000 or whatever it might take to equip that plant, but let some oper·at:or come along and make some proposal, and we will certainly consider it. MS DUFF: M·y:.-~· Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Member for St. John's East. MS DUFF: Thari_k _._you, Mr. Speake!~ . I would like to direct this question to the Minister of Health.

What action has the Minister taken to investigate concerns about potential health hazards in arenas throughout the Province which are caused by carbon monoxide levels generated through the use of Zamboni ice cleaning machines? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Health. MR. DECKER : Mr. Speaker, the han. Member is probably referring to the media coverage of SE!VE!ral lAIE!eks ago, I believe. I prepared for the question about 3 or· 4. IAJeeks ago, and I have been waiting For it No. 9 Rl.O

ever since. Public health inspectors respond to all complaints received concerning problems with air quality in ice arenas. In the ~bsence of any complaints, the health inspection division has a policy whereby air quality in ice arenas is routinely monitored at least twice during the winter season. The standard test carried out is for the presence of Carbon monoxide, and occasionally other parameters, such as nitrogen dioxide, arE! also checked. Generally, however, the standard monitoring practtce is centered around c~rbon monoxide.

The Member is probably referring to the Quebec report, which had some problems with the formula, saying that maybe even smaller amounts would be considered dangerous. We have not yet received a copy of that report; we have asked the Quebec Government to let us have one. In the meantime, Mr. Speaker, I do not see any great need to panic. The main thing is to have ventilation. The Department, through Public Health Inspectors, responds to every complaint, and from time to time spot checks are made to make sure that everything is under control. I am pleased the hon.

Member saw fit to ask that question, but I wish she would get into some of the meat of the Budget, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John 1 s East. MS DUFF : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I can assure the Minister that we will deal with the meat of his budget in the appropriate form, which will be the Budget Estimates Lll March 23, 1.990 Vol XLI Committee and the debate on the Budget in the House. I would never make a quick hit on something as serious as the Health budget.

I would like to say to the Minister, in view of his answer, I think he said Health Inspectors carry out . inspections once• or tlJJice during a u.Jinter season on a complaint basis, and in view of the fact that cad)Qn rnonoxicll;! is an odorless and taste!less gas, and a. deadly gas, and I do not t~Jish to be an alarmist in this, but thE!rE! can be unacceptably high carbon monoxide levels with out anybody making a compla i nt, becauSE! they wou1d not know it was thE!Y'e, and it is par ticu l arly hazardous to athletes because of their high uptake of oxygen and to people with cardiac and rE!spiratory problems, does the Minister consider that a spot check of once or t.t~J.ice during the tAiinter s~:!ason is adequate?

Because I understand that Zamboni machines, if they are used in buildings whi~h are not properly ventilated, or if these machines are not properly maintain1':!d and have carbon in their engines, can, in fact, be producing this gas. Is the Minister now saying that he considers, in spite of thE! report from Quebec, tJJh:lch indicates 'l:hat the levels indicated may not be adequate, and in spite of l:hE! fact that this gas can bE• in l:hE! atmosphere without anyone being aware of it, that a casual inspection once or t.to~.liCE:' a sec-1.son by Health Inspectors is adequat~?

M ~_,_2_f.I.B_~_IE_: The hon. the Minister of Health . MR. DECKER: -·-··---·--·- Mr. Speaker, the premise that: the hon. Member is going undE!r is that No. 9 R 11

the Department makes a couple of spot checks after there has been a complaint. That is not entirely accurate. We respond to complaints, but we also do spot checks from time to time. Now, I suppose, ideally we would have a Public Health Inspector stationed at every arena and you could test the air for carbon monoxide every hour. Now, that would be an ideal world. But the hon. Member knows, the economy of the Province bt::dng what. it is, we cannot afford to put Public Health Inspectors in , every arena in the Province.

But we do make spot checks on arenas as we make spot checks on restaurants, as we make spot checks on hotels, and there are certain regulations that operators must abide by. For example, the machines have to be kept in good condition, lJ.Jith the engine, I suppose, to be fine tuned. There are rules and ~egulation~ the operators of these a-renas must ab -ide by. They know that. But, of course, I think all of us would love to have the finances available so that we could station people permanently in the arenas.

But the world being what it is, fiscal reality being what it is, we have to be content to treat the arenas as we treat everything else. But it is a very serious matter; it is a matter the Department is concerned about. I wonder why, if it is such a serious matter, the hon. Member waited three weeks to raise it? It was three or four weeks ago that we had problems with the TrepasSE!Y rink. MR. SPEAKER: The hon, the Member for St. John 1 s East. Ll2 March 23, 1990 VoJ. XLI MS DUFF: I- -like the Minister so much bet: .ter when he keeps to the highroad. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear!

MS DUFF: I wonder if l:he Minister has considered requiring that each of these arenas would be equipped with a small hand -held device, which I gather is inexpensive, which would allot"J the stadium staff to monitor their own C0-2 levels? AN HON. MEMBER : A good question. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health . MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, as the han. Member points out, som.:1 of the stadiums do · have that equipment . I understand the St. John 1 s Stadium has that piece of equipment.

We have not considf:'rE!d rnaldng it mandatory, but we certainly will not stop any stadium or any arE•na in this Province who want to have a hand-held device. I think it would be a wise thing to do. MS DUFF: Why n'ot? MR. DECKER: Whether or not we are going to make that part of legislation, I am not sure it will be nec•O!ssa1Ay . Generally speaking, Mr. SpE!akE!r, the operators of thos•:=! arenas are rational, reasonabJe peopJe ancl they, too, are conceJ~ned abou L. l:h•:! carbon monoxide level and thE!Y do carry out various inspections . As the hon. Member points out, you may not be awarE! of it.

Bu l. to make it mandatory ---· I lAJould think what she is suggesting might just No. 9 R12

happen in the course of time anyway, as people becomt:1 more aware of the problem. MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Member for Grand Bank. MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . My question is to the the Minister of Finance.

In light of thE! recent downturn in the fishery of the Province, thE! crisis that WE! are experiencing in Newfoundland and Labrador, I would like to refer the Minister to page 126 of the Budget Estimates, the Department of Fisheries, and ask the Minister if he can explain the reduction in the Department of Fisheries budget, from $33.3 million to $31.2 million, a reduction of $2. 1 million. Would · the Minister explain to the House, please, what programs of the Department of Fisheries are be'.ing affected by this reduction in the Budget? · !"' R..-=--JctJ N Q.§.Q.~ : Not the Minister 1 s salary, you can be sure.

MR. SPEAKER: -··-··· .. ----··· · .. ··- The Minister of Fisheries . MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, there are some reducU.ons in the BudgE!t this year Fotn Fisheries. But that can be explained, in that last year thE!re t.uere a number of programs Fund•:~d in the Budget for which funding is no longer necessary, and I can give the hon. Member some examples. For example, 1ast year we had $500,000 amount in the Budget for a northE!rn cod study. That is now completed, so we do L13 March 23, 1990 Vol XLI not need it ther·e any longE!r.

We had a $200,000 amount of expenditure to the trustees for the Rose Ting fish plants, for example. That. is no longer necessary. We had a $300,000 amount for the mid distance trawlers. That is no longer necessary this year, certainly not that size of an amount. Last year there were other such programs, Mr. Speaker, and that explains the reduction. I should point out, Mtn. SpE!akE•r, that, in fact, the fishet"'ies budgE!t this YE!ar ts about $5 million in excess of lAJhat :it t~>.Jas last year, in reality, in that this year we are spending - MR. MATTHE"WS : (Inaudible). MR. W.

CARTER: No, there is a $9 rni.lJ.:ion expr:1nditure this year thE! PtnovincE! is making to compensate the two fish plants, FPI ·and Nat.Sea, fo1" not terminating their employees. That amount is being spE!nl on t.hE! fishery, but it t.~.r.i.ll appear in the estimates of my coLleagUE!, the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations. MR. SPEAKER: Question Period has expired . Notices of Motion MR. SIMMS : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. rhe Opposition House Leader. MR. SIMMS : Mr. Speaker, I give notice t~hat I will on tomorrow ask 1eave to No. 9 R1.3

introduce the following resolution :

WHEREAS the Government announced in its Budget that the Office of the Parliamentar~ Commissioner (Ombudsman) will be eliminated; and

WHEREAS the Ombudsman received over 900 complaints in 1989; and

WHEREAS over forty countries in the world and all provinces except PEI have an Ombudsman; and

WHEREAS no other ever eliminated Ombudsman; and jurisdiction thE! Office has of

WHEREAS only the Ombudsman has the necessary authority to resolve complaints made by citizens against the Government; THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that this House of Assembly recognize the importance of the Office of the Ombudsman in protecting citizens against Government actions, an.d that this House of Assembly urge the Government to reverse its decision to eliminate the Office of Parliamentary Commissioner (Ombudsman). SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DUMARESQUE: Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for EagJ.e River. MR. DUMARESQUE: Mr. Speaker, last week I tabled the Report of the Elections and Privileges Committee respecting Broadcasting, and today, Mr . Speaker, I would like to moue concurrence of this Report . MR.

SIMMS: L lll· March 23, 1.990 Vol X Ll A point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. ThE! Opposition HOUSE! Leader, on a point of Order. MR. SIMMS : I t.~.lill confess at the outset that this is not really a point of order. I would likE! to E!ngagt~ in consultation with the Government House Leader, and a point of order is a good way of doing il. .!.l_r~tJ~ . o ~ -~ .. 11.~-~ -~--~-.R : Is it on (inaudible)? MR. SIMMS: No, I think it is a publoic matter, since I raised it yE!StE!rday . NotAl that the motion has been put forth by the Chairman of thE!

Cornrnittee with respect: to radio broadcasting and thE! rest of those itE!ms, wouJ.d the Government House Leader consider leave, or asking leave, to deal with the matter right ·away? Perhaps we cou1d a~~reE! on some ti1pe lim.itations, maybe:. a couple of spE!akers From each s:i.dE! for five minutes each, so that tJJc~ could get this matter rE!So1uc; !cl and get on with the great refor ·rn tJJc;• all agree is very necessary. I can tell the GouEH~niiH:~nt House Leader that lAJe on th'is s:iciE! are quite prepared to gi1.1e le'aue l:o do that, if he would be interested. MR. SPEAKER : The han.

The GoVE!rnrrwn t House Leader. MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . In response to the non point of order, the motion made by the Member for Eagle River simply puts the topic on the OrdE!r Paper for the next day . We had a11~eady reached agrE!E!ITIE!nt as l:o lAJhat tJJ:Lll happen today, and it has a11 bec:'n No. 9 R 14-

settled in ter'ms of what is going to be calJ.ed today. I will call it at the earliest possible opportunity after that point. MR. SPEAKER: The han. The Leader. MR. SIMMS: Opposition House Mr. Speaker, I know there is already an understanding of what takes place today. All we are saying is that the Finance critic is . pre pained to give up twenty minutes or a half hour of his time so that we could deal with this very important issue.

If there is any concern on that side that we may be trying to get this enacted now, immediately, today, so that the Finance critic could get radio cove rage for the next. two hours, that is not our intention, I assure you. MR, RIDE.OUT : We will be speaking whenever it comes in. MR . SIMMS: on it, Yes. r'n fact, we would be quite pre pained to approve it at a s p E! c if i c date , if he wants to put it off until next Wednesday, or next Friday or whenever, but I think we should deal with the matter and let us get on with it.

Since there is a· feeling and a mood to accommodate this request, and since everybody is in strong support of the reform, there should not be much debate on it, so let us get on with it. Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. L15 March 23, 1990 Vol XLI MR. GULLAGE: Mr. Speai<E!r, I lAJish to rE!Spond to a question I took note of YE!Sterday from thc::1 MernbE!r fo1n St. John • s East Ex·tern. TherE! has been no major program cuts from the Cultural, Historic Resources and Youth Sector of mg Department.

The $700,000 to which the Member referred is the rE•sul t of a number of reductions in several Subheads, the most significant of which is some 400,000 resulting from the completion of the Conservation Laboratory and repair lAJOlnk to thE! Colonial Building. Other reductions, cornpared tAli th last year's revised estimates, result from differences in salaries as a rE!SUl t of a nurnbE!r of retirements last year, and the resulting severance packages associated tJJith these lnet:ilnements, holiday pay and vacatJ.on pay.

There was also a reduction in funding made available from the Federal Government, under the National Museum Subhead in Historic Resources. As I indicated, Mr. Speaker, th~:1rE! tJJere no major program cuts, sirnpJ.y programs that were complc::d:ed last year and for which funding is not. required this year, and the differences in salar-ies thts yl=!ar compared to last year as a r1::-su1t of retirements. Thank you, Mr'. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : Further Answers to Questions for which Notice has been given. MR. GILBERT : Mr. SpE!akE!r . MR. SPEAKER : The hon . the Mintster of Works, Services and Transportation.

No. 9 rn5

MR. GILBERT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Yesterday the Member for Menihek (Mr. Snow) asked me some questions concerning the Labrador Air Subsidy Program. The elimination of the Labrador Air Pas sanger subsidy .. _ MR . SPEAKER: Order, pJ.ease! I am having difficulty hearing the h.on . Minister . I do not know if his mike is on, but I cannot h~'ar the han . Minister . MR. GILBERT: There is too much talking on the other side. MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Minister of Works. Services and Transportation. MR. GILBERT : Yesterday. Mr.

Speaker. the Member for Menihek asked me some questions concerning the amount of subsidy paid for the Labrador Air Subsidy Program . The elimination of the Labrador Air Passenger Subsidy Program represents a small drop in thE:~ amount of monE!Y that the Provincial Government spends on subsidies to air passengers. In 1988-89. a total of 5961 applications For the Labrador Air Passenger Program were processed . The avelnagE:' amount oF the subsidy was $4 ·6.00 per occasion. The ninety -five applications which have been processed for February and early March of 1990 have produced subsidies in the range of $55.00.

A number of variables will have an affect on the average amount oF the subsidy at different times of the year. Many travellers take advantage of seat sales when Ll6 March 23, 1990 Vo1 XLI travelling to the Island portion of U1e ProvincE!, and this rE!duces the subsidy amount. At: other times. and in caSE!S of E!Hl€~rgE!ncy. a full-fare ticket is necessary . Residents of Coastal Labrador have also been able to take advant~~ge of an additional subsidy amo~nt, as air travel to connecting points for Island travel has a]so been subsidized by 20 per cent under this program .

I would like to point out that funding is avaiJ.ablE! from l·:hr::! Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs for sporting and cultural groups, and, also. that a subsidy to Labrador Airways for travelling Coastal Labrado1n is sU .ll in effect, and this is, by far, the largest subsidy we pay. MR. SIMMS : Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The hon . the Leader. MR. SIMMS : o·p p o s i t. ion House I wonder if the Minister would table that sheet of paper? Orders of the Day M ~-.!__§..!:.~.A ~J . .R : Motion 1. MR. WINDSOR: Mr . Sp~~aker . MR . SPEAKER : I just point out to the han.

Member, and I tAiill not. take this out of his time, that Mot i.on 1, as hon. Members know, is to move that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole on Ways and Means to consider the l"ai.sing of supply to be granl :c:~d to Her No . 9 Rl6

Majesty. MR. SIMMS: It is the Budget Debate . MR. SPEAKER: Yes. The procedure is that the Speaker leaves the Chair in theory, but it does not happen. It. is just one of those strange things wht::~rein it just carries on the way it is. fhe hon . the Member for Mount Pearl. MR. WINDSOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . What happened a moment ago in this House is somewhat symbolic of what is happening on the other side. The administration is afraid of what is taking place over here. They do not like what they are hearing, Mr. Speaker, particularly the Premier. I want to point out that the Pr.emier . has a basic flaw.

He is like a thermometer. You can see his blood pressure rise when he is worried about something; you can see the col.our in his face rise. He is just like a thermometer. He is like a mood meter on somebody 1 s wall. HE!. has a built-in mood meter. I know when I am gE!tting to the PrE!ITiier, because I can see his colour go up, his complexion turns very red. Obviously, I'H'l is frightened to death today of what I am going to say about his Budget. He is already ernbarrasse•d about the fact that his Minister has badly bunglE!d the Budget, and he knows it. He is going to run a1..uay and hide now.

That shows how much backbone he has. He cannot even take it. I arn able to get to the Premier. The Premier 1 s probl~~rn is he thinks he is so intelligent Ll'l March 23, 1990 Vol XLI nobody els~?! can speak to him, and I arn able to get to him on that basis, Mr. Speaker. I am ab1e to get to him. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WINDSOR: There is the proof, Mr. Speaker. It did not take me very long before he cleare!d out of t.ht::' Legislature today. He 1..uas scal~E:'d to death. I saw hirn 1E!an OVE!r to the hon. the GOVE!lnnrnent House L.eadt::~r and say, No, no.

Do not aglnee to letting the rnadio peopl1:0 in hE!rE! today. Windsor is going to be speaking, and 1..ue aro scal"ed to death of that. WE! do not want the truth to get out to the people. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hE!ar! MR. WINDSOR : You could see it, Mr. Speaker. I saw hirn 1 E!an o v E! r and hE! gavE! thE! President of Treasury Board his instructions: Do not agrnE!e to that. We do not. want the truth out on the strE!ets. Coveln it up at all cost. Well, Mr. Speaker, that. is not going to stop us.

I can assurE! hon. gentlE:'men opposite that l:he• facts are going to be brought out, and they are gotng to be brought out in technicolour. I hope the Minis lE!r of Finance has at J.east the gumption to stay here and 1isten to some of thE• thtngs that are going to be said about this Budget today, and I do nol: say that unkindly. I hope he sits in his seat and 1istens, not only to ITIE:', Ml". SpeakE!r, but t.o ali other speakers who are going to spE!ak on thJs side of the House, because we do a very detailed and thorough --· another one doum, Min. No. 9 R17

Speaker. I have about a 50 per cent vacancy rate so far. It will not be long before they are all gone, Mr. Speaker. The backbenchers arE! hanging in there a little bit, just trying to keep up a good front. They are embarrassed about this Budget, but they do not want to admit it publicly. rhey will be gone pretty soon. Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to dE!al, first of all, with just the flavor of this Budget which has been described by me and my colleagues and our Leader as a sneaky, devious, and dishonest Budget, far from the people 1 s budget the Minister of Finance would like ·to have the Province believe it is.

It is a people 1 s Budget alright, it is increased borrowings this year by 20 per cent from $398 million to $494 million, the largest increase in borrowing, Mr. Speaker, we have seen in many years, a large increase in the public debt. We. will get into some details on that in a number of days, because I have lots of time to speak on this one. The real concern, Mr. Speaker, and I g u e s s the rea 1 evidence of how concerned this Government .is and how well they know they have bungled this Budget, is the fact that the Minister of Finance refuses to answer questions.

As I said yesterday, he has absolutely refused to deal with any of the details in the Budget, particularly the infamous payroll tax, for which he will go down in history as the one who introduced the payroll tax when he did not even know what it was all about. I intend to show this House, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister of Finance did not know, and the Administration did not know. I will forgive the backbenchers, L18 March 23, 1990 Vol XLI obviously, because thE!Y had no

part in putting together the Budget. They saw it for the first time when the Minister of Finance tabled the Budget in the House, so I do not expect them to take responsibility for this mistake. I am embarrassed they are sta.ying over there and appJ.auding and supporting this Budgt:.~t. because it must be obvious to thE:Hfl now just exactly how bad this Budget is, and what a grE!at blunder thE! Minister of Finance has made . I made the point yesterday, Mr. Speaker, that really what happened was that we caught them in the act two weeks ago.

The little pi~E!SS conference I had two weeks ago seemed pretty quite, on a Thursda~ or Friday mor·ning, whanev(;!r it was , it did not s E! ern l i k e a b "i. g affair, but the news media came out in droves . They know that when I call a pr1?.SS conference I have something worthwhilE! to say, so I get a good audiE!nce, unltke some of the Min:i.ste!rs oppostte. I had a good audience tht::1re. I tAJas quite pleased with it. I received good coverage on what I had to say because I said something for a change, which is something unusual for Ministers OVE!r the!re, who do not often say much. But.

I said something, and I altJJays have, Min . Speaker, whenever I held a pr·ess conference. I have aJI.t.Jays held something to say, and I enjoy l:hat reputation. I am still able to dr·atJJ a healthy number of the:! nE!IJJS media, and I am pleased with that. That little press conference, Ml". Speaker, revealed the fact that the Government was considering playing with the Retail Sales Tax. Now when the Goods and Services Tax was being debated at l.hE! N a t i o n a 1 l e v e l, and I t.t.J as M i n i s t. e r of Finance at the time and No. 9 R18

participated in debates with the Government of Canada and our other Provinces about the Goods and Services Tax, the Minister of Finance wanted a · truly national sales tax. He wanted one tax, which would make a lot of sense, in that it would be simple, clean, not confusing, and it would be consistent right across Canada. The proble!m is, how do you vary the rate? Well, you could do that I suppose, the problem being it took away from the Province any flexibility to use the Retai 1 Tax Sysb:~m as a social measure. And that is really what our Retail Sales Tax does.

It provides exemptions to thE! essential items in life - food, clothing, heating fuel, schoolbooks, essential items, so that the tax in this Province, with some exceptions, is basically a luxury tax. People will argue that - ~.!L_§_PEAKER: Order, please! The Minister of Social Services (Mr. Efford) and the Member for Stephenville (Mr. K. Aylward). probably, are carrying on a conversation. It is rather loud and I find it a little bit. interruptive. Though we do not want to stop talking, I do find it to be a little bit interruptive. MR. EFFORD: Sorry, Mr. Speaker . AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear, Mr. Speaker . MR.

SPEAKER: T-he··-han-:-·-.. - thE! Member for Mount Pearl. MR. WINDSOR: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Your Honour was quite accurate . L19 March 23, 1990 Vol XLI The han. gentlemen were speaking quite loudly. They were not bothering me too much, b.E!cause they were not really saying anything of any substance. I do not pay too much attention, and I do not intend to get sidetracked by any banter from that side of the House today. But I do appreciate Your Honour quite accurately pointing it out to hon. Members opposite. MR. EFFORD : I thought I had apologized . Do not go too far with it. MR. WINDSOR: Thank you .

Mr. Speaker, the point I lAJas making was that lAJh1~n we WE!re negoU.ating a national salE!S tax, we made the point on behalf of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador that we m~edE!d to re tc-lin some control over how sales tax in this Province was applied. We could not do veJ~y much about Federal sales tax. If it ~~Jas going to be applie!d on a naU.onaJ. level, equal all across Canada, ·then the!re was not much lAJE! couJ.d do about it.

But. we ne,::•d,~d to t~etain the d.ght in th:ls Province to use Retail Sales Tax as a social lever, in other words, to remove some of the regressivenE!SS of the taxation system, in oU1e1" words, to give some re1ic~f to those who needed it more. And you do that. We have done that in this Province fot~ many yeat"s, simply by exempting those -.i.t"'1ms which are thE! basic E!SSE!nlials of life. When you at"~~ at the lotAJer levels of income, the basic essentials of l.ife rnake up almost 100 per cent of your disposable income; most of th"'~ money you have to spend goes on b~sic essentials.

When you are in a higher, more affluent income No. 9 Rl9

bracket, you have a lot more money to spend on the non-essentials . And if you can do that, you can afford to pay tax on it. So it is a very valid way of providing some relief to persons on lower income and injecting through our tax system into our economy somethin'g that helps people at the lower levels. A national sales tax would have taken that away. But the Minister, Mr. Speaker, was proposing to change our Retail Sales fax so that it applied to everything. He was going to remove these exemptions and he was going to make our sales tax a regressive sales tax, in that it would have dealt with everybody equally.

He was going to lower the tax rate and broaden the base, which is exactly what GST does. It spreads. The Minister of Finance has said the GST will essentially be revenue neutral. I am not sure I totally accept that. But that is' the premise under which we have been negotiating, that GST is revenue neutral through the Government of Canada, that it spreads the base, it gives manufacturers an opportunity. It puts more burden on individuals, unfortunately. And that was what the Minister of Finance here was thinking about doing, Mr. Speaker. MR. MATTHEWS: Yes, that is right . close to doing it. MR.

WINDSOR: And he came He was going to broaden the base in Retail Sales Tax, and he was going to remove these exemptions so that everybody would be paying on all those essential items. Now we caught him in the act and we exposed him, because there lJJas a Budget leak. And I beliive it was a very serious Budget leak. I L20 March 23, 1990 Vol XLI wis.h we could do some documentation, because I think it is probably something serious enough that the Minister of Finance should have considered resigning over it. MR. MATTHEWS: Ye's I he s-hould have . MR.

WINDSOR: We have seen it happen before, where Ministers of Finance resigned because a Budget document was leaked. We saw it FederaJly a year or two ago. The last Liberal Administration, as I recall, asked the Minister of Finance for the last Liberal Government in OLtalJJa -· he did the sam~~ thing. He lAJC-.lS caught, not with his pants dOlAJn, but with his documents down, and he had to change the Budget at the last minute. And that is what happened here, Mr. Speaker. The MinistE!I" of Finance was caught lJJi t.h a Budget l~ak and he had to change Lhe Bu-dget. He had al rE!ad y said Lhe Budget is finished.

HE! had fnade statements. The President of Treasury Board had saoid thE! Budqet documents are all done . We finished our calculations, it is being printed now, and we are going to present it next Thursday. But l:.hey had to change it at the last minute because, interesU.ngly enough, the proposal they had - and I had the nu111bers - to changE! RetaiJ. SalE!S Tax lAJou1d have brought :i.n an additional $15 million thjs year. What a surprise! That is lJJhat. it would have broug~1t in, an additiona1 $15 million. And whr?.n we exposed tt, Mr.

Speaker, they had no alternative, they said we have to cancel that b~~cause• the Opposition Finance critic has already· told the pu bJ. i c about l:.hi s. You k nolAJ, this is really a breach of the No. 9 R20

Financial Administration Act. The Finance critic has exposed him. MR. EFFORD : Do you actually believe that? MR. WINDSOR: This is true. The han. gentleman does not like it. He can play his games. He does not like it, but the fact is this is E!Xactly what happened. So they very hurriedly said, how can we pick up that $15 million? We have already allocated our expenditure Budget. We cannot change the whole Budget, so we haVE! to change one figure. We have to take out that $15 million additional RST and we have to plug in $15 million sometJJhere else. Somebody said, well, what are t.he revenue options?

I know how the systems works. I can table it in fact. I have here in rny file a li.st of rE!Venue opt:i.ons that lAJere given to me when I was Minister of Finance. There are probably forty or fifty revenue options there, so I know what each of these little moves can generate for a govel~nment. I knou.J tJJhat. I am talking about here. rhey looked at their list of revenue options and said, quick, how can we get $15 million and stili have a people's Budget? And this is important! It has to b.:~ a people's Budget, so we tJJil1 hit the corporations. This anti-business Government said, we lAJill hit the corporations.

We do not want development in this Province. We wil1 drive businesses out of here. We do not care. We are social m:inded. We are going to put all our money into Social Services, Health and Education. MR. EFFORD : Are you suggesting tax the poor? MR. PARSONS: L 21 March 23, 1990 Vol XLI You have already taxed the poor . MR. WINDSOR: No, Mr. Sp~~aker, I arn not suggesting taxing th~" poor. That. is exactly what the Minis ler lAJas proposing to do by changing the Retail Sales Tax System, taxing the poor; rob from the poor and give to the rich.

That is tJJhat the Minister of Finance was ptnoposing to do but. tJJe caught him in the act. So they pJ.uckecl out of their hat a tax which would provide an acld:i t:i.onal $15 rni lJ.ton this year and $25 million next year, and they do not E'VE!n knotAI to lAJhorn it applies. We lAJill get into the details of who is going lo pay .that tax in a moment. They say, no, no, i l~. is probably not going to apply to arfy of l:he public service, any of the CtnotJJn corporations, hospitals, educational institutions or anything like that. Well, I lAJou1d like to know how they are going to do it, Mr. Speaker.

I am not bringing in anything that is speculation, I arn quoting from lhE! Budget, Exhibit 1 on Page 7 of Lhe Budget itself, and if you look undf.:1r 1989 ReviS(:'d, Wages iHld SaJ.aries $4.1 billion. That is the total of wages and salaries paid in this Province :i.n C\J.]. sectors. That is pub1:ic and private, $4.1 bilJ.ion. Now, Mr. Speaker, my engineering background allows me to very simply calculate that '.'i.f you arE• going to raise $25 rni.1lion at. a 1.5 per cent tax rate, then you are going to have l:.o tax almost ~~2 billion. Almost $2 billion has to be taxable.

You have a total of $4 billion to work with and you 11f.:H:1cl $2 biLLion to tax. Now, have a J.ook at Lhe t.ax. It dcH,~s not apply to corporations with salaries of $300,000 or' 1€'!SS; thE! No. 9 1~21

Minister said that is small business, therefore ·.it. is exernpt. Mr. Speak«::~r. most businesses in this Provinces are small businesses. The number of businesses and corporations in this Province with payrolls over $300,000 are few, so you have eliminatE!d, I would say, probably 95 per cent of businesses in this Province automatically. Now if you are going to eliminate 95 per cent of businesses, how can the Minister even suggest that you can eliminate the public service, all the institu ·tions, all the non-profit organizations, Crown corporations. hospitals. the University and schools?

Those arE! 1abour intensive. There is a tremendous labour content in the budget of those institutions . You have $4 billion to work with in total, you need $2 billion in order to generate $25 million a year at 1. 5 per cent, so how in the name of all that is holy can you do thal~. if you are going to exempt all of those and all bf the businesses that have gross salaries under $300,000? It is not possible. It is not possible, Mr. Speaker.

I have showri clearly that the Governrn«::~nt had every intention of taxing all those instituttons and they are now out there squirming in the back room, and that is why the Minister of Finance and the Premier ran at.~Jay the minute I got on my feet. They are out there now trying to find out how they can get this $15 million this year and $25 mil.lion next y~-:~ar lAJithout: taxing these institutions. I would subrnit, Mr. Speaker, it cannot be done. MR. EFFORD : (Inaudible) no t.~Jonder the PrE!rniE!r lE!ft . L22 March 23, 1990 Vol XLI MR.

WINDSOR : Very simple mathematics, and the numbers are coming right out of the Budget document. They are nothing I hatched up. The han. gentleman opposite can take a calculator and take 1. 5 per CE!nt and he tJ..Jill see. MR. EFFORD : (InaudiblE•). MR. MATTHEWS: We know he ts 1niqht. But you do not haVE! $2 bil1:i.on to tax a·t 1. ~) if you eliminate all the rest, .is what he is saying. MR. WINDSOR : Mr. Speaker, a col. leagUE! of rnine just passed rne a note hE•I~E! and it describes the Budget as a bad, unfair, gross, evil Budget . Ml". Speaker, t.his Budget has bE!~;;~n bungled.

The proposal to change the Retail Sales Tax System has bE! en exposed; they WE!re caught in the act and they hastily pi .cked a new tax out of the air, and notJJ they are going to pay the prtce, they do not know how they are going to do it. rhey are now just starting to find out. The Minister made an interesting statemE:~nt the other clay in cHlSlAJE'in to question flnom one of my colleagues . He said, We do not know if we are going to have a reciprocal agreement on Retail Sales Tax tJ..Ji.th the Gov~;;'rnllWnt of Canada and on CST. Well, that -:Ls interesting, Mr. Speaker.

Because in the lock .. -·up I t.1Jas afFor'dE!d by the Minister pr-ior l:o the . Budget Spc::~ech on BudgE!t clay, h:is officials made it very c1ear to me that a reciprocal agreement has been reached. MR. MATTHEWS : What was that? No. 9 R22

MR. WINDSOR: A reciprocal agreement has been reached. I asb~d him very clearly, because I rc~~call when I was in the Departl'nent my concern was that the Government of Canada . through GST was going to take tens of miLlions of dollars out of the purse of the Province of Newfoundland simply for purchases that this Province makes, which now would be taxable at the Fed l':! r a 1 1 eve 1 . And I was as s u In e d , No, no, you are right. We made those arguments tJJhen you were he1ne. They changed their mind on that. They backed down and we have a reciprocal agreement.

But now we have lost the reciprocal agreement on Retail Sales Tax. We can no longer charge the Government RST, so we lose a bit there. But the Minister in the House the other day said, We do not know yet if t.1.Jt:1 are going to have a r·eciprocal agreement. What do we believe? Who do we believe? I believe the officials, because I do not think the Minister knotJJs what he is talking about. MR. TOBIN: What is the reciprocal agreement? MR. WINDSOR: ·A-···-re cipro .. c .. al agrE!ement simply says that we do not pay Fedt:~ral taxes and the Federal Government does not pay Provincial taxes.

In other words, we will not pay GST on purchases the Province makes. All the supplies Government and Crown agencies buy, on none of those purchases will we pay GST. And the GovernmE!nt of Canada t.I.Ji.ll not pay RST on what they buy in tho Province. But, of course, as you know, most Fed€~ral Government purchases are made through Toronto anyway. Theine is not a heck of a lot purchased here, so we do not lose very much. But we lose a 1..23 March 23, 1990 Vol XLI littlo bit. There are very few Federal Government purchasing agencies he1ne. Mr. SpeakE!r, I do not know what we believe. Min.

Speaker, let us dc:1al w:i th the payroll tax. Let us deal with l.I.Jhat I think will be an infamous payroll tax. The Minister has indicated that it applies primarily to private companies. I am sure that was probably their thought wht:1n they introduced l:.his tax, that it l.I.Jot.lld apply to private companies.

And he said, it is 1.5 per cent, but because those companies are paying FE!dE!tnal taxes, well you know, we fooled the Federal Government a bit because this Provincial tax they will pay now wtll be deductible as a business expense when you are calculating your Federal tax, and, therefore you will not pay as much Federal tax. They do not want us to say that too loudly. We he!arcl that the other today, We11, boys, we were trying to sneak that by "the Government: of .Canada. I do not know who ti1E!Y think they alnE! if they are going to sneak that by the Minister of Finance for Canada and his officials. Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Finance says, 1 I calculate that thE! effective rate on corporat-:i.ons is 0.8 per cent. That is the effective rate on corporattons when you get the credit on Federal tax. There is one problem with that, Mr. .Speaker. AJ.l l.he Hospitals and schools and other inst.i tut.ions which do not pay Federal tax do not get such a tax credit, so these glnoups are paying the full 1.5, while the co1nporati.ons, yes, rnay be getting a crt:~dit back to 0.8. The1nc:~ is you1n fairness and balance in this tax, Mr. Speaker·. The1nt:1 is fairness and balance!

Now the corporat:tons arE! being g:i.ven back No. 9 R23

some because they pay federal tax, but the crown agencies, the institutions, the hospitals, no. They do not get anything back. MR. MATTHEWS: That is shocking! What a ridiculous schE:~me. MR. GRIMES : You have to find out to whom it applies. MR. WINDSOR: I beg your pardon? MR. GRIMES: You have to find out to whom it applies fi1nst. MR. WINDSOR: You are right. The hon. Member for Exploits is correct. I do have to find out to whom it is going to apply. And so does hE!, because he has just admitted he does not know either to whom it t~Ji 11 a p p 1 y .

I thin k I h a v e j u s t shown that the Government has no alte~native but to tax every institution. And I point out, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister said, We model this after Ontario and Manitoba. Ontario and Manitoba do tax health institutions and educational facilities, both of them . This was a sadly researched Budget. They did not know what they were doing, Mr. Speaker. This Budg<.;!t professes to bE! a gr'eat people 1 s Budget. It proposes to do great things for Health, Education and Social Services, yet it tai<E:~s back part of l~Jhat it. does.

How about a little organization like The HUB, of which everybody here is proud? A tremendous organization helping the disabled. MR. EFFORD : We gave them a m:i11ion bucks L24 Mar'ch 23, 1990 Vo1 XLI (inaudible) . MR. WINDSOR: ---··---·--You gave them a million dollars, capital account. A mi11ion dollars which they borrowed, Mr. Speaker. Because they increased their borrowings this year by $100 million dollars. What a great Government! We borrowed an extra million dol1.ars, and LI.Je gEwe one of thr,~m to the HUB. Pat us on Lhe back! MR. EFFORD: Do not go running that down . MR. WINDSOR : I am not. MR.

EFFORD: You did. MR. WINDSOI~: I did not. If you had not bN!n talking to somebody in t::he background you would have heard what. I just satd. Perhaps tf you pay attention, yo·u 1Ad11 hear' thE:~ entirety of what I am saying. You wil1 find out I did not run it down. I complimented you yesterday and I complimented you today on giving them a million dol1ars, but I do not: J.:i.b~ you taking it back Lhrough this payroll tax on the employees; l:he disabled employees lAJho are lAIOrking at The HUB. I arn saying l:.hal:. is what is going l:o happen.

I am waiting to see you tel l rne otherwise, or l~he Minisl:er of Finance. He has had seven days now to stand in his place and tell us it is not trUE!, but he cannot do it because oi.t is true. It:. is as simple as that. MR. EFFORD: He t~Jill anstA.Iel~ IAJhen he is l"eady, not when you are ready . MR. WINDSOR: No. 9 1~24

He will answer when he is ready. He will answer when the people are ready. When this Government has the intestinal fo~titude to call an election he will answer, and so will this Government. MR. EFFORD: That is lAJhy LI.Je are over here and you are over there. MR. PARSONS: ·-···- .. ··----·-He has an obligation to the people . MR. MATTHEWS: He-----sh-ould -have known befo1ne he brought down the Budget who had to pay, old man. That is lAJhat lAJe are telling you. It is a fraudulent document. Fraud! Fraud! MR. WINDSOR: I am out of water, if the Page will bring me some more. Mr.

Speaker, post-secondary institutions are similarly affected here. Some of my colleagues have been making the point in Question Period over the past week. The Member for Humber East, particularly in dealing !Ali th the university, has pointed out t.hat t~his tax will take $1.6 million from the university - $1.6 million. And when she speaks, I have no doubt sht::~ will point out exactly what has been happening to thE! university budget over thE! past couple of years, and how this Government has pointed to all the great steps they have made.

They provided a few shekels this year to expand l~he administration building and to build a small animal shel·ter, and a few of those things. AN HON. MEMBER: Are you for (inaudible)? MR. WINDSOR: I am Marble Mountain . 1..25 March 23, 1.990 Vol XLI We gave MarbJ.e Mountain a coupJ.e of million dollars, 2.1 million dollars. The only money, M1n. Speaker, for travel generators in the Province all went into the Premier's ski hill. And I do not it begrudge the Marble Mountain. I am one of the greatest supporters of Marble Mountain, and was when I was the Minister of Tourism.

I initiated the study that developed Mar·ble Mountain to where it is today, I takE! a lot of credit for what is happening with Marble Mountain, and I am delighted to see them get the $2.1 m:illion; I tAJish it tAJas 12 .1. million dollars! But now they are going to tax the employees of Marble Mountain, because Tourism is not exempt. Tourism is not ext::~mpt, and we will get into that later on. MR. REID: You do not know that yet . MR. WINDSOR: ... •-•ooon-• -- Tourism is not exempt. k now that y e t . · I do n!f l~ MR. PARSONS: You do not know either . MR. WINDSOR: We-iT:-rmean, I can only 1n10:~ad thE!

Budgt::~ t Speech. It says forestry, fishery and agriculture, renetAJable resource--based industries. This Government does not consider tourism an industry. The M:i.n:iste1n of Finance stood here in this House last year and said tou1nisrn is a seasonal industry. That ktnd of attitude is what has caused us problems in the tourist industry for many years, too many years, because of the approach of people like the Minister of FinanCE!, who does not think we can have a tourism industry in Newfoundland in the 1..1.Jintertime. He just found out differently and he had no No. 9 R25

choice, this year, but to put $2.1 million into Marble Mountain. The Premier rapped him on the knuckles and said, Hey, do not forget about skiing, my favourite pasttime. Tourism is not just a seasonal industry. What is seasonal is the Minister's attitude torwards tourism and that needs to change. The tourism industry happens to be the third largest employer in this Province, Mr. Speaker. The han. the Member for Mount Scio - Bell Is1and (Mr.

Walsh) is going to have his head shaken off here today, because he is deeply involved in tourism, he is a great. .proponent of tourism, and he knows that what I am saying is true. What I am saying is true. There is tremendous potential· in the tourism industry, and we are going to get into that later on. Now, Mr. companies are this tax. MR. EFFORD: Speaker, private going to hava to. pay So they should. MR. WINDSOR : They are going to pay the tax . Somebody has to pay taxes. The first point we should look at, Mr. Speaker, is that that is clearly a disincentive for those companies to establish themselves here.

It is a disincentive, an additional 1.5 per cent on their payro1l. When a company is looking at establishing in Eastern Canada and that company is trying to decide between Halifax, Nova Scotia, and St. John's, Newfoundland, one of the factors they will look at is that, Oops! 1.5 per cent on my payroll, special tax in Newfound1and. We a1ready have the highest personal income tax and L26 March 23, 1990 Vol XLI the highest corporate taxes and another 1. 5 per cent is going to be tacked on to that.

For this poor little Province that so desperately needs development, that so desperately needs investment from outside, this Government is now making it worse, it is putting in another disincentive. What are those companies going to do, Mr. Speaker? They are going to say, Well, we have to do business in Newfoundland, I suppose, if tAJe are going to se11 our product the1"e, but lJJe lAJ:ill do it from Halifax. Or rnaybE:! we lAr:i.11 set up a branch office in Newfoundland, and we lAd.11 do our payroll from Halifax. Now, how does the Minisi:E!r proposE! to get at that?

If he is proposing to do audits and have tax inspectors dealing with all those detail s, his $15 million will not last long. ·His $15 million will not last long if he has to go into t.he accounting de par trnents • of corporations which have head offices in Halifax, or Montreal, or Toronto, or Calgary, to find out how much payroll is being paid to persons who are actually working in Newfoundland, or to persons who move back and forth. Trucking companies in this Province, Mr. Speaker, havt::~ enough problems now trying to compwte with trucking companies from Upalong. Why?

Because l:hey haVE! lower corporate and pE!lnsona1 LaXE!~; up there, becaUSf:;! their cost: of gasoline is lower - gasoline in this Province is highly taxed. So there are advantagE!S. Many of those tractor t:rail,~rs corning into this Province are J.icenced :i.n Quebec, or Nova Sco l:.ia, or Maine, or Neu.J Hamphs:i.rE! and l:hey pay their licence and insurance and everything thE!l"E!. They carne in Lo No . 9 R26

this Province with extra tanks welded on which are full of fuel, they have their bunks in the back of the tractor-tra:i,lers, they have their grub with them, and they probably do not spend five cents from the minute thE!Y come off th~~ f~~rry from Nova Scotia until they leave Port aux Basques to go back again, not five cents. And this Government is notAl making it even more attractive for them to stay up there.

And a company established here in Newfoundland that is trucking up to Ontario and back, or going up getting a load and bringing it back, that company, doing the same thing as the company established in Nova Scotia, has to now pay an additional 1. 5 per cent on thc:~iln payroll. And the Minister of Finance is saying this has nothing to do with the consumer! Well, who is going to pay it? . Banks and insurance companies, Mr. Speaker: I talked to a banker just yesterday who says, Well, we really do not know how this is going to be applied.

We have quite a number of branch offices of the Bank in Newfoundland and Labrador and they are pretty independent; we can oper.ate those as independent offices. We can set up a little SE!t of books For each branch very quickly, no problem! We can separate them. We can make it as if instead of thirty-five branches of one Corporation, there are thirty- .. five independent little banks. We could do it that way. And, he said, on the other hand some of our management people are paid from head office in Toronto. So do we haVE! to pay payroll tax on their salaries? That is a good question.

Do tAle pay the payroJ.J. tax on the salaries of people t.uho are paid from Head Office? Even L27 March 23, 1990 Vol XLI if they do pay it on the locaJ. employees who are paid (inaudible). Or is it possible to have all the salaries paid from head Office? Is it p o s sib 1 e , M r . Speaker, to move all of the Administration out of Newfoundland to avoid this 1.5 per cent tax? Perhaps this is the rE!soJ.uti.on that companies will come up t4d.th. This is hotAJ they will ged: around this tax.

So they have a number of options: they can pay it. from Toronto; moue all their administration up ther~~; t.hE!Y can set up separate companies or branch companies with independent sets of books. ThC::~re a1ne lots of ways to play games with that. How about professionals, Mr. Speaker? This is called a payro11 tax. GouernmC::~nt tries to caLl i.t a health and education tax, but that is just a cover--up to t:tny to blame a11 our problems on l:he Government of Canada again, notwithstanding the fac l:. that they are gC::~tt.ing $42 miJ.lion mol~E! thts year than they got J.ast year ft"OITI the Government of Canada.

AJ.l l4JE! ever hear is it. i.s becauSE! the Federal Government cut back on equalization, on EPA. Thre is $2'7 million more on equalization alone this year. And the Minister stood up in his place on Budget Day and said, We did a great job of running the economy this yc::~ar. We budgeted a $5 milli.on deficit J.ast year. In the middle of the year I carne in and I said it tAias going to be about $50 milLion.

And, hE! said, we rC::'al1y did have that, bu-t. we fintshed off at at~ound, I think it was $37 million as I recall - I think the r:igure was $3'7 tnil.l.~ion - bE!Cause w~~ put a $21. m:i.11i.on special payment into the Pension Fund. WelJ., that is a good th:ing to do. No. 9 I~ 2 '7

What he did not say, Mr. Speaker, was where all that money came from. It was not from the management of this Government. Most of it came from revisions in the equalization payments, equalization they were not expecting at Budget time last time, changE!S that were made, revisions that were made afterward. Now he is crying because he got that windfall of $50 million in equalization payments after the Budget was finalized last year, and this is where he got his extra surplus. Check the books. The hon. gentlemen opposite are leat"ning something here, I can see by their interest.

And I am delighted to see a couple of hon . gentlemen, two of them constituents of mine, as a matter of fact, who are paying great attention. And one, ·I am almost a constituent of his. They are _paying great attention because they are learning · some of the things that are in this Budget they probably had not thought about. But that is what' is happening. How about professions? How about lawyers and poor old engineers J.ike myself, some of these people who are competing quite often with mainland competition?

I mean, lawyers can carne in here fr.om HaJ.ifax or Toronto and go to court and represent ·you, but they do not pay the 1.5 per cent tax. Engineering work can be done in Toronto. And I am not talking about a little bit of engineer·ing wor·k like I might bE:~ doing, that is peanuts. How about the Mr. Speak E!r? things that the previous Hibernia consortium, One of the greatest tAJas accompJ.ished by Administration was L28 March 23, 1990 Vol XLI the Atlantic Accord which guaranteed that this Province would gE!t 50 per CE!n t of Uw engineering tJJork dont=?. in this Province.

Now that was important, not only because of the amount of money that would be injected into ou~ economy, but because of technology transfers. BecauSE! tf all of this work was going (inaudible) in Newfoundland and Labrador and, han. gentlemen, remember we talked a lot about joint ventures ·- I have not ht~ai"d a word mentioned since this Government came to power. Joint ventures are forgotten about, no concept of trying to help local cornpantes to g.::'t involved :i.n such a massive project.

No concept, no talk about helping them get involved in joint ventures with other companies, J.arge corporations fr·orn out.side tAJhtch have the expertise that we need. So the engineering aspect of thE· Atlantic Accord, Mr . Speaker, is critically important, transferdng technology to this Province, technology that wil.l be hE!rE! long after oil and gas is gone. Sume of the han. gentlemen oppositE! rnay have had the opportunoity - if they have not yet, I am surE! they tAd.ll over the n~xt couple of years - to visit Norway.

You see, Norway got involved in the oil and gas play many years ago, and they benefitted directly from that. But the big benefit Norway got was they took advantage oF l':he technology and they kept it there, and they are now probably recognized as the naUon :in this world which has the greatest amount of expertise in offshore oil and gas. And that is l:he r·c!al lasting benE!fit. Oil and gas is short term. Long term for you and I; we wiJ.l not be ar·ouncl tJ.Jhen a11 the oil on the Grand Banks is pumped up, M1~. Speaker. But I arn No. 9 R28

talking about future generations. When all that oi.l is gone, what will be left? Technology. And that is important. What this tax does is say to the Hibernia consortium, never mind your technology transfer, it is going to cost you an additional 1. 5 per cent - because Government changed the rules of the game after we made the agreement - and you are now goi.ng to take 1. 5 per cent out of their pocke·ts. Boys, we wiJ.l do it in Toronto.

This great megacomputer we have been talking about getting J.n here, this super computer we thought may have to be established in this Province ·to do that type of t.i..lork when Hibernia gets rolling, will not be coming here. 1. 5 per cent on the value of engineeri.ng work that is going to go into the Hibernia development is one pile of money, Mr. Speaker.

And I am sure the oi.l companies are sitting back saying, Huh! not o~ly are they going to tell us where we are • going to build our ~odules in Newfoundland and Labrador - the Premier wants one of those in his District too - but now he wants 1.5 per cent of everything we spend doing it. Well, I think that is going ·to be a very negative thing for offshore oil and gas. Mr. Speaker, my colleague mad~01 the point a couple of days ago that this tax indeed applies to everything, to food.

And I talked a few moments ago about spreading the Retail Sales Tax and how that would impact on essential items, on food, clothing, books, heating fuel and electricity. This tax does exactly the same thing. It sneaks in by the backdoor the same way and taxes aJ.l those essential items that have been exempt in this Province for year·s, for th~::~ L29 March 23, 1.990 Vol XLI right reasons. I do not think anybody opposite will disagree with exemption on food and clothing and heating fuels. The han. the Member for Labrador certainly would be concerned.

Well, he is not J.n Happy Valley - Goose Bay, because they get such a special deal on electricity thN'e anyt.1..1ay, because they are so close to Churchill FaLls. But in thE! rest of the Province those 1tE!ITIS are certainly very essenti.al. This new tax impacts on evE!Inyone of them.

It impacts on food because your wholesaler has to pay 1. 5 on his saJ.aries, th1::1 rE!taLl.er has to pay 1. 5 per cent on his salaries, your trucking operation has to pay 1. 5 per CE!nt on his saJ.aries, the advertising ag~::1nc:i.es and the television stations and radio stations that do thE! promotion have to pay the 1. 5 per cent, so the cost will go up. This is very directl~ a 1.5 per cent inflation. That is exactJ.y what it. is, because it lAJi.1l hit basically alJ. gobds and . SE!rvici:!S .· It is a local goods and Sl:!rvices tax. It is not a health and education tax, it is not even a payroll tax.

It is a goods and services tax because it applies t:o everything, all employment put into goods and servic1?S. It does not apply to the mat~rials as a goods and services tax would, but it is a vaJ.ue·····added tax. That :i.s what i.t. is. The same sort oF a thtng. So food, Mr. Speak~::~r, wi11 bE! impacted, clothing tAd.ll be tmpacted, books wi11 be irnpactE!d -·­ the cost of all of these it"=Hns.

Every tirne they are handled, salaries are paid for that; evc::•1ny tirne they are trucked, eVE!ry tirnE:! they are shipped on a boat, anything that has any ernployrnent involved in it, any payroll, any labour, pa1nticuJ.arJ.y anything l:hat No. 9 R29

is labour intE!nsive. I know the hon. gentleman for Mount Scio Bell Island has to be looking around. I wonder if he has thought about taki'ng each one of his chicken stores and making them a separate company so his payroll is not over $300,000? I wonder? AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible) . MR. WINDSOR: I am su re he has blame him. Because we are talking about . MR. NOEL: and I that Even tAli th each store probably too high, too payroll. MR....:-. .WIND!iQ_R: do not is what it high is a But that is what we are talking about, because if his payroll is taxable - MR. WALSH: $1.5 million . MR.

WINDSOR: $1.5 million, your payroll? • Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman has a $1.5 million payroll. He is going to have to pay tax on $1.2 million of that, and at 1.5 per cent that is $18,000. Very simple mathematics. MR . WALSH : The price of doing business. MR . WINDSOR: The price of doing business, yes. Not the price to the han. gentleman, Mr. Speaker, the price to the consumer. His chicken has to go up a dime on a snack box, maybe a quarter. Eighteen thousand dollars is a fair chunk of money. He has to get it back some way, Mtn. Speaker.

HE! has a L30 March 23, 1990 Vol XLI profit margin he is working within, and he is going to corn1':! up with that profit one way or the other. And that is the lAJay tAiith everything that is involved here . AN HON. MEMBER: It is a terrible thing to say about the Member . MR. WINDSOR: It is a terrible thing to say about the Member . That is business. That is the fr ee enterprise system. That is supply and dE!rrtand . That is what tAlE! iH 'e talking about here. This tax lAri .11 impact on E!VE!ry itE!rn that i.s consumed in this Province. And the fact of the matter is, Mr .

Speaker, the consum~;:~r wi.1l pay For it sooner or J.ater. And it i.s a tax on electricity and heating fuels. Newfoundland Hydro wi1J . pay tax, Newfoundland Light and Power will pay ta~. Newfoundland Telephone will pay tax. And they wi 11 g e t t he i r i n c r· E! as E! s , be c au s e they wi11 g·o to the Pul :)lic Utilities Board and ask for an increase. They have taken off thr:• consumer advocate, so this Government has guaranteed that they wi 11 get any inc r·eas E! s thE! y send to the Public Ut:.i.lities Bo ard for. That will be rubb er stamped. We do not haVE! Mr.

Wells over there now t:.o protect us. l-IE! ' can do it now on his Open I ine Show, but he cannot do it at l..he Public Utilities Board any more. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) lucky quorum. MR. WINDSOR: -·- .. . I would rather have over there than thE! I can tell you that. Now, Mr. Speaker, Crown corporations. No . 9 you have a the o Lh e1n one onE• you hc\V E!, all of these these agencies R30

I will get into the Crown corporations - all the institutions are going to have to pay this tax. And you have to remember they do · not have the flexibility the han. the Member for Mount Scio -· BelJ. Island has. They cannot raise their prices, not in the middle of the year. The University cannot raise their tuition fees in the middlE! of the year. They have established th,?.ir tuition fees. If $1. ·6 m:i11ion has to come out of the University budget t.o pay this tax, you can rest assured tuition fees will have to increase to pay for it. MR. EFFOIW : Mr . Speaker, is his time up? MR. SPEAKER: No . MR.

WINDSOR: The Member's time is never going to be up. The han. gentleman is going to have a long grey beard before I sit down, I t.uill tell you that. I am only setting the thE!me YE!t. I am going to get into the details later on. This is the first time I have seen han. gentlemen opposite sit up in their seats and stay awake since the House opened, so, I mean, there must be something being said. MR. SIMMS : You are just into your preliminary topics. MR. WINDSOR: That is all. I am warming up . AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) your collE!aguE·s . MR. WINDSOR: Mr.

SpE!aker, my col1eagues have L31 March 23, 1990 Vol XLI already explained alJ. of this. They understand it, you see. My colleagues understand what I am saying hE!re. And I am rna king sense. This is not poJ.it:icaJ. rhetoric, this is simple basic fact. I am taking nurnbE:~rs out of the Budget and I am explaining them to you. How about some of the non----pr·ofi t organizations? I lTII:!ntion,':!d the HUB. I rnean, thE! HUB reaLLy concerns me. We give th~:!l' n $1 million to expand and they need that, and that means, obviously, they are going to be able to expand their operation and increase their staff. MR.

EFFORD : They got $1 million, did they not? MR. WINDSOR: Yes, they did. This is time I have mentioned said t.uhat a great thing am delighted .. So they able to increase their and pay more payroll tax. the Udrd that and it is. I wiLl. bE! staff now Hot.u about Canadian Red eros s, Mr . Speake in? MR. EFFORD: We gave it to thr:'m in less than one year. MR. WINDSOR: I spoke l:o a gentleman Canadian Red Cross two and I said, How much payroll? He said, Gee, or $600,000, I altogether. HE! said, WE! have to pay l:<:-:tx on that, I said, On anything ove1n you will. AN HON.

MEMBER : (Inaudible). ~--~-: __ ~_J_fJ_Q_~Q_fi : No. 9 frorn thE! days ago is your $500,000 SUppOSI?. t.~ri.11 not tAii.ll tAJe? $300,000 1n1

On RST the same thing would apply. AN HON . MEMBER: We will get to that whole range credits. AN. HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible). -~~--=--·WINDSOR : that (inaudible) of low income tax You are playing _ garnE!S with it. WE! will debate that silly proposal when you bring that one in, which the Minister will probably do next year because he has run out of ideas anytJJay. Mr. Speaker, as I pointed out these institutions are going to have to pay the full 1. 5 per cent,

whereas businesses will get some Federal tax credit and therefore they are only going to pay 0.8 per cent, so it treats the businesses in fact even though it is an anti-business tax it still tr1?.ats the bus in e s s e s a 1 itt 1-e bit better than it does the educational and health institutions that it is suppose to help. It is a goods and serviCE!S tax, Mr. Speaker, if we ever saw one. Also, on the Crown corporations, Mr. Speaker. I will just mention those briefly so some thought can be put into them.

Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation; is that going to bE! taxable or is it a resource based industry since most of their effort is directed towards resource based industry? Could we not argue therefore that employees are involved in a resource based industry and therefore it is not taxable? I wonder. It could be interesting. MR. EFFORD: A fine guessing game. L32 March 23, 1990 Vol XLI MR. WINDSOR: Well, all we can do is guess. The Minister refuses to give us answers. All I am trying to do is help the poor Minister. He does not even know the things that hE! has to be thinking about over there.

I am trying to find out all the problems. He needs a lot ~f help over there. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. WINDSOR: We did not do this either. I arn sure Newfoundland Hardwoods will be taxable. That is really a business. The Minister of Fares ty though might argue. AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible.) MR. WINDSOR: Engineering work is a professional service and that i~ taxable. Heavy mE!tal JJJork is taxablE!. The town of Gander would have had to pay about another $2S,OOO if this tax had been in place, to gc~t t.he setJJerage treatmE!nt pJ.ant that thE! President of Treasury Board had the honour of opening.

I thank him for his cornrnents that day. He knows what a good system that i.s and he tJJas very complimentary tn his comments that day, very pleased that we opened that pli'.lnt in Gander. It would have cost the totJJn of Gander another $25,000 if this tax wer·e in place, pr·obab1y more than that. Ve•ry labour intensive that l.lJaS. Built in NetJJfoundland, by the way, 100 per cent, and not brought in from OUtside. fhe ftrst: Si:>Wer·age trE!atment pJ.ant in this ProvinCE!, totally built in t:his Province, I say to the MinistE!r of Municipal Affairs. AN HON. MEMBER: No. 9 R32

.... Who designed it? MR. WINDSOR: r-- did---·not . It was d e s i g ned locally by local engineers and they would have to pay tax on their design. AN HON. MEMBER : Who did the design? MR. WINDSOR: ThE! design was clone by Hydro Research and Development of which I am now an associate. As declared in my conflict of in ·terest statemE!nt and I make no bones about it. It was done, built and completed beforE! I was associated with them. It is a good design, it is a good piect::~ of technology and there are going to be a lot more of them built in this Province, and we will pay tax.

I was not involVE!d with the company when that was built. AN. HON. MEMBER: • How much did you make personally out of that? MR. WINDSOR: I did not make a cent. I was not involved with the company when that was build. AN. HON. MEMBER: Were you not involved in the 0 0 ? eng·lneerlng. MR. WINDSOR: I had nothing to do t.~o.dth it.. I happened to be involved about the time the official opening took place. I have beE:~n out there notJJ getting i.t fine---tuned. so it notAl in fact is 50 per cent better than it needs to bE! to beat environmental standards I say to the Minister of Environment and Lands.

There are 1:>ighty ·-six sewerage treatmE!nt plants in this L33 March 23, 1.990 Vol XLI Province, Min. MinistE!r. ThE!rE! arE! only th1nee that work and this is one of them, and the cost, Mr. Minister, was 40 per cent of a conventional design. It "is frE:~e advertising I get here today, Mr. Spt::~aker. but I am taking tht::' opportunity because the question was asked of me. I think the MinistE!r should know and I invil:E! the Mini.ste1n to corne out. I invite the Minister to let me take h".im out and shotJJ hirn that plant.

It is the only one of it.s kind in the tJJOlnld b1:>cause 1ny colleagues, before I became associab;!d, took a pieCE! of Unil:.E:'d Kingdom tE•chnology, adaptE!cl it to treat municipal sewerage and it is the biggest application of this technology anywhere tn the tJJor1d. and it works. If you ask your officials. Mr: · Dominie and Mr. Card from Grand Fa11s. WE! di.d some testing therE! l~.tJJo or ·three WE!

Gd< s ago for two or three days. and in parts per rni11:ion that .is allowable - under your standards i·t is thirty parl:s per rnt11ton l.I.Je were consistently around ttAIE•nty on the average for the day. without chemi.cal treatment which is designed for this t:irnE! of Lhe year with a J.ol.I.J flotJJ. Quite seriously, I invitE! thE! M:inistE•r, and I would be delighted at his convenience to take him out and give him a full tour and explanation of Lhat plant.

In fact I arn going to Happy ValJ~:!y -· Goose Bay at the 1neqU1:;!S l: of council, at thE! lAWi.U:en lnE!quest oF the council, I arn going up thE!l~e during the Easter break to meet t.~o.lith the counci1 and to give H11:;!1TI a full. briefing on this thing. They visited during a municipalities convention in October when they were out and they are VE!lny interestE!d. I havE• talked to the people tJJho a1ne involved in the NATO base who will No. 9 1~3 3

be needing a sewerage treatment plant for Happy Valley - Goose Bay and it is something that will work very nicely up there. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. WINDSOR : They need a good engineer in Happy Valley. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. WINDSOR: Well, we are happy to offer our services. AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible) . M~ .. ~.!JINDSQ.R: Well, actually I have a letter here in my briefcase .. I lAlill send him a copy of it because they have expressed great int~rest in that technology. Now, Mr. Speaker, I am allowing myself to be taken off the subject. Get back to the Budget.

There is nothing irrelevant, of course, in the Budget debate, and this is a very worthlAJhile exchange, at least flnorn rny point of view. But, Mr. Speaker, some of the Crown corporations like Marystown Shipyard, that will be taxable. You cannot call it a resource based industry I supposed, and 'it is involved in building something for the fishing industry. Building ships for the fishing indust~y. Will Marystown Shipyard have to pay 1. 5 per cent tax on the labour involved in building a fishing trawler? Will it pay that? Good question. The President of the Council nods his head, he says yes. But should they?

L34 March 23, 1990 Vol XLI The Newfoundland Liquor Corporation and liquor Licensing Board, they will pay taxE!S. We will get to them in a few minutes and see how much tax they are going to be paying. How about the off shore petroleum board, I assume they will pay taxes. It is resource based, not renewable resources though. Petroleum is not a renewable resource, so I guess we cannot exempt them. Newfoundland Far 'lfl P1noducts, Agricult.ure . They lAJi.ll not have to pay. How about the trucker that is trucking all of those products around the Province? AN HON. MEMBER: They own their own trucks. MR.

WINDSOR: They do not .deal lAlith any truckE!rs? AN l-ION. MEMBER: They own their own trucks . MR. WINDSOR: Not all of them they do not. AN HON. MEMBER: No, but some . MR. WINDSOR: No i.ndeed thE!Y do not. They use a lot of htred trucks. Another good point. Maybe thi.s is another way of unfairly letting Crown corporati.ons who may not be subject to l:he tax opt~l~at:e thoi1~ own trucking system to put truckers in Lhis ProvinCE! out of work . That is another way of looking at it. 011, the:~ Minisl.E:~r of Finance carnE! back! He finally got up enough courage.

He mus l: have gonE! out and gOt a shot of something to bolster up his nerves and he 'is back now to hear what is being said about him . No. 9 R34 .

Mr. Speaker, let us get on to Municipalities. How will this affect Municipalities in this Province? Mount . Pearl will be taxed. $4-2,000 a year in tax is what it would cost the City of Mount Pearl. Something in the order of a quarter of a million dollars for the City of St. John 1 s. Labrador City, $20,000. Corner Brook, I would say would be in the same - in fact, it would be a little bit more than Mount Pearl because their operating costs are higher than Mount Pearl. So if Mount Pearl is $4-2,000 then I would say the City of Corner Brook is going to have to fork out about $60,000. Wabush is $15,000.

All this, Mr. Speaker, after budgli:1ts have been approved by the Minister of Municipal Affairs. The budgets have all been approved submitb:!d and approved. And where are these Municipalities going to get this kind of . money? Where is the Ci t.y of St.. John 1 s going to get a quarter of a million dollars in the middle of the year after the budget is already brought down and the tax rate set - the mill rate set for this year? How are they going to do it? AN HON. MEMBER : Cut back on their salaries. MR. WINDSOR: Cut back on thr:!ir salaries. Thr:!

Ministers might be making $250,000 a year, but I can tell you the City councilors in St. John 1 s, Mount Pearl, Corner Brook and Labrador City are not making · a quarter of a million dollars. AN HON. MEMBER : A quarter o f a million? MR. WINDSOR: You tAJi11 not find it. A quarter L35 March 23, 1990 Vol XLI of a million dollars is a significant portion of the budget of the City of St. John 1 s to have to find, unannounced and after thE! budget is brought down.

It would be different if the Minister said here is a tax that will apply next year for Municipalities and the municipalities can plan it and they can take it out of the pockets of the ·tax payers at the municipal level next year. Another way for the Minister to hide his tax on individuals and try to say that this Budget does not tax individuals. Maybe it has something to do with amalgamation, Mr. Speaker. We should look at that.

The Minis·ter of Municipal Affairs says he is going to saVE! $54- mi 11 ion , I believe it is , $54- million by amalgamating municipalities, hotAI is he going to do it, very simple, mathE!rnaU .cs is a wonderful thing.

If you get forby~-·five cents on thE! fitnst ~;2 million, twenty cents after and if you tombtne two total levies of $2 million and you only pay forty-five cents on one, so you save twenty-five cents on $2 million, a half million dollars, simply by taking two municipalities like Mount PE!ar'l and Conception Bay South, each of which has a total of over $2 million, Mount Pearl, well OV!i:1r 2 million, Conception Bay South, over two million, simply by saying: okay, we will eliminate two municipalities and 111ake Lh!i:1tn one, the GoVE!rnrnE!nt saVE!S a half million dollars. Peanuts, Mr. Speaker, that is pE!anuts.

That is absolu·te peanuts. The real kicker in it, Mr. Speaker, is thE! fact: that the city of Mount Pearl, because they are self-sufficient financially, because they are paying on a11 the loans that. they have ever received for watli:>r' and sewer and for any ·thing elSE!, they are paying thr~ir own tJJay, get:t"ing No. 9 R35

no special subsidies From GovernmE!nt - AN HON. MEMBER: What about their grants. MR . WINDSOR: I beg your pardon . They get their municipal grants under the Municipal Grant Act, sure. They are treated the same there as any other mun ic ipality, they get the forty-five cents on the first $2 million, tt.uenty cents after, yes, yes. We are not allowed to apologize because Mount Pearl is treated the same as Gander or Buchans or Grand FalJ.s or Windsor which are treated the same under municipal. grant. I wish Mount Pearl got as much money per capita as Windsor, it would have the lowest tax rat .e in the Province.

Not one CE!nt does Mount Pearl get outside of the Municipal Grants Act, not one cent of special funding for any of it. Everything which is in th-ere is paid for by the taxpayers of Mount Pearl. Everything! AN HON. MEMBER: Taxation Centre!? MR. WINDSOR: Taxation Centre, imagine! The hon. Gentleman is obviously talking about the Motor Registration Building. It does not pay a cent of tax to Mount Pearl, not a cent of tax, not on Provincial Buildings. AN. HON. MEMBER: ·w li·a.t:··-·-ab out .... o on ova n s Industrial Park? t'LR. ..

WINDSqR: Donovans Industrial Park was always planned to be the Industrial base for Mount Pearl, it lAJd S no gift! Hold on! I can show you thE! 1955 plans, I can L36 March 23, 1990 Vol XLI show the Murray Jones Associates plans which were done in 1971. Mount Pearl - N1:"!wtown DevelopmE!nt Scheme Plan. When Mount Pearl's Industrial Park was reallocated to the Donovan's area, it was all. planned as one great integrated system. AN HON. MEMBER: Tell John Murphy that. MR.

WINDSOR: You cannot te1l John Murphy anything that he does not lAJant to hear, but he cannot change the facts and I can document it and thE! evidence is dot.un in thE! Department of Municipal Affairs. Murray Jones and Associates reports and their plans are down there and the buiJ.dings and the streets that are being developed today are sU.J.l in accot~dance, Mt~. Speaker lives in onE! of the areas oh one of the streets which was planned by Murray Jones in 1971. That ~arne plan is still being developed. No rnaj ot~ c hang1:-s have taken place. AN HON.

MEMBER : The City of Mount Pearl has not got as ·rnu c h sun 1 i g h t . MR. WINDSOR: It has not got as rnuch sunlight . It is certainly a whole J.ot brighter than the hon. Gentl.ernan, I will. telJ. you that, they do not need the sunlight . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. WINDSOR: Mr ·~·····speci-·i{ .. e·-;., the minute that Mount. Pearl would amalgamate with Conception Bay South, the first thing Mount Pearl has to do is pay on the debt because the debt wouJ.d be combined. fhe City of Mount Pearl would now be liable For aJ.l No. 9 1n6

of the debts that Conception Bay South has incurJ"t~d in their lAJater and sewer systE!m. I think it is about 35 or 40 million dollars spent to datE!. A b'out a not her $8 5 million or $90 million needed in there. And all of a sudden the City of Mount Pearl and the taxpayers of Mount Pearl would see th~'?.ir debt go from about $17 million to $57 million. AN HON. MEMBER : We are all Newfoundlanders . MR. WINDSOR: Yes, right, and we should alJ. pay our own way.

And the people of Mount PearJ. have paid for their water and sewer and their roads and their recreational faciJ.ities and everything else and so should everybody else. It is as simple as that. MR. R. AYLWARD : (Inaudible). ' MR. WINDSOR: I beg your pardon? MR. R. AYLWARD: (Inaudible) you saying that. MR. WINDSOR: would not be Indeed I would be saying it. I said this many times. I have said it many t:imes in Cabinet. I have said it many times in caucus, and I said it many times in the House of Assembly and I arn going to say it a coupl1?. of more dozen times before I J.eave this Chamber you can rest assured.

AN HON. MEMBER : It will not be very much longer . MR. WINDSOR: Long af ·ter I am-··· I think myself and the Leader of the Opposition are thE! deans of this CharnbE!r. I L37 March 23, 1990 Vol XLI think we are the only ones that have been here since 1975. AN HON. MEMBER: .The h.on~- th·e- Member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) . MR. WINDSOR: T'h'e ho~ .... the Member for POJ"t au Port. MR. R. AYLWARD: No he is here . MR. WINDSOR: I apologtze apoJ.ogize to Port au Port. to my colleague . I him, thE!

ME!rrlbE!I" for· So there are three of us who haVE! been here since 1975, and I arn going to be here lAlhen most hen. gentlemen and hon. Madam oppos'i.te are gone. I am not going to st:ay fo'rever. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MS VERGE: Gordon Seabright (i~audible) . MR. WINDSOR: Seabright. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. WINDSOR: I will not touch it. I do not engage in those tactics . I do not need to. hE!rE!. Bu t I L1.ri.1l bE! NoJAJ, Mr. SpeakE:~r, this Government tries to leav~:! th1=~ irnpl"~:'ss:ion that this is a people's Budge t . MR. R. AYLWARD : A great family book . MR. WINDSOR: No. 9 1<3'7

That there are no on people. Yet Budget Highlight Speaker, - AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible) . MR. WINDSOR: increased taxes right in the documents, Mr. My friend I can stand on my feet longer than you can sit there, I can tell you that. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. WINDSOR : It is reaJ.ly difficult to try and concentrate when you are getting praise heaped on you, Mr. Speaker, from the other side. It really is disconcerting . Mr. Speaker, the Budget highlights - simple addition, to get back to our mathematics, simple addition of Budget highlights $93 million additional taxation.

And there are some hidden tax increases. The Minister has learned very quickly. He was not quite as devious last year as he is this year. Last year in his Budget Speech, let me quote from the Minister's Budget Speech of last year, page 15, 11 These measures that I am announcing today will raise $31.5 million this year and $43.4 mtllion nE!Xt year. 1 So the Minister admitted in his Budget Speech last year that thE!re is an additional $43.4 rni1J.ion taxed on the people of the Province this year For measures that he announced last year. So he did not annour1ce them again.

He ~hd not stand in his place last Thursday and say, oh, by the way, I told you last year it was $4 ·3 . 4 mil1.ion going to kick in this year. I did not want to re!m"i.nd you of that. He did not tell us any of that. L38 March 23, 1990 Vol XLI AN HON. MEMBER: Income tax was part of it . MR . WINDSOR: Income ta ·x was part of it, yes. No tax on individuals. What is personal income tax? He raised it 2 per cent last year, 1 per cent took effect last year and l pE!ln cent this year. AN HON. MEMBER : Tinaud-i.bJ.e )·~ MR. WINDSOR: Oh, only $20 million , Mr. Speaker , I think is the number. AN HON.

MEMBER : (InaudibJ.e) . MR . WINDSOR : I am wrong! _right! I·t additional this year. there is no I arn w1nong! No I arn is only $20 million, personal income tax The Minister says taxes on pe~ple. . ~.B...:__B_Y._LW £!. R Q: That is not much , MR. WINDSOR : I have a-lready gone to pains on the payroll tax to indtcate that the peopJ.e are going to pay the $25 rnilJ.ion a year the Minister proposes to raise on payroLl tax . People are not going to pay For it, Santa CJ.aus is going to br-ing it there. Whe1ne is it going to carne frorn if it is not going to be passed to the consumer? AN. HON.

MEMBER : Rebates frorn Government . MR. WINDSOR : thE! FecleraJ. Rebates from th e FederaJ. Government, my eye, Mr. Speaker . Any IJJay the Minisl:e1n lAJan.ts to cut it there is $25 million coming out No . 9 1na

of the pockets of the people of this Province, and he cannot change it. He might not like it. He did not know t.uhat he was doing when he dtd it, but that is what he did. $25 million a year. That is on top of the $43.4 million he announced last year he was going to take this year. So we are getting up there already. We are getting up there! Then we look at retail sales tax. Mr. Speaker. All of a sudden that is up like $35 million.

Now the Minis·ter is going to jump to his feet when he gets a chance to say, 1 But that is because the economy is booming. 1 I do not see the indicators anywhere in the economy that the economy is booming. that sales have gone up all t:ha t much. The Minister did not tell us that but do not forget the Goods and Services Tax is coming in and we are g o"i n g to pip p y back our 1 2 per cent after the Federal taxes is applied..

So because this terrible Goods and Services Tax is being imposed by the Government of Canada, the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador is going to pick up a few shekels, that is why that has gone up by 35 per cent, that is a 6 per cent increase. A 6 per cent increase over the retail sales tax that was collected last year. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. WINDSOR: I wonder how much was spent in anticipation of the Government changing the retail sales tax. I wonder how much t.uas done after I exposed the Minister on that little scam. AN HON. MEMBER : Not as much as the anticipation on Hibernia.

L39 March 23. 1990 Vol XLI MR. WINDSOR: a·h~--·-·--yes ·:· Anticipation of Hibernia. I wilJ. never forget Mr. Speaker. the han. the Premier when he was Opposition Leader sat herE! on this side as he loves to do, he pontificated day in and day out about this terrible Government that is misleading the people about the fact that Hibernia is going to do something wonderful for the economy of l:his Province, and that the deveJ.oprnent of the Lower Churchill is going l~o be a good thing for this Province. Every day he IJ..Jas up saying that this GovernrnE!nt does not have any ideas.

They are putting all their apples in one barrel. All on Hibernia and the Lower Churchill, well I could not belieVE! it. Mt". Speaker. I almost f~':'ll out of the chair when I heard the Min:i.stE!t~' s Budget. What did it say, Hiberrl'.ia and Lower ChurdlilJ. are going to be the saviours of the economy of Newfoundland and Labrador. How they changed · their tune. Mr. Speaker. How they changed their tune when they walked across. All of a sudden they realized that Dr. House and his Econolflic Recovery Team in spite of the $2 million they are going to spend l:.his year have not got any answers.

And in twelve months has not given one answer except to reorganize the Department of Development so that the Minister of Development has less to do than hE! has now. That is all that has come from the Economic Recovery Team. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I wonder if the han. Me111br:~r for Mount Pearl would give me a minute to welcome to the gallery Captain and Mrs. Wi1son Janes and thE• Salvation Army Corp Cadets From Horwood, Notre Dame Bay. No. 9 R39

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Mount Pearl. MR. WINDSOR: Thank you, Mr . Speaker, I am certainly pleased to give Your Honour the opportunity to welcome these young people to the House of Assembly. I join with you on behalf of all hon. Members on this side and both sides, I am sure, in welcoming them. I was pointing out, Mr. Speaker, how the Government has changed its tuned so quickly. The Premier would love to sit here and pontificate as only hE! can do. He likes looking down his nose at people opposite. He tried it wi t.h me this afternoon.

See that is why ·the Premier gets so upset when I say things to him because he knows that I am not impressed by him at all. He can look down his nose at me a11 he wants. And all I see is the bottom of his nose. I am not impressed. I arn not intimidated. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) . MR. WINDSOR : With Ministers like the hon. Minister of Labour he needs something, I can assure you of that. We will get to her I can assure you in due course . Now, Mr.

Speaker, I have dealt lAiith the $43 miLLion the Minister announced in his Budget J.as t year, dealt with the $25 million payroll tax that the Minister tries to convince us is not going to be on people. I have dealt with the $35 million increase in retail sales tax, I do not know who is paying L40 March 23, 1990 Vol XLI that, if it is not. the consumer of thra Province. I dealt with tilE! $20 million personal income tax the 1 per cent the Minister sneaked into last year's Budget and it takes effect this year. Corporate Income Tax has gone up, $9.4 million, a 17 per CE!nt increase. That is interesting .

A 17 per cent increase, and who pays Corporate Income Tax? Corporations. Who pays the Corporations? The consumers . In the end analysis, he pays the two. Corporation Capital Tax, Mtn. Speaker, is gone up, a 50 per CE!nt increase because the Minister increased it from 3 per cent to 2 per cent. $1.6 million he is going to pick up this year and that is on banks and insurance companies. Who is going to pay it, Mr. SpE!aker? Do you th'i.nk that banks are going to reduce their ~mount of profit because the Minister decides to bring in a new tax? AN HON. MEMBER: He is going to spread it all over the nation. MR.

WINDSOR: He is going to spread i·t all over no nation. He is going to spread it all over Newfoundland .and Labrador. He is going to take another nickle out of you every time you cash a chequr~ at a bank. That is what he is going to do. They are going to g1~t th1:>ir money back, Mr. Speaker. They do not operate for free. Minerals holdings tax is only $0.3 million. That does not sound like an awful lot until you realize that that is a 4·00 pet" CE!nt increase. Where is the Member for St. John's West (Dr. G'.'i.bbons), the No. 9 I~IJ .Q

Minister responsible for that? He is hiding behind me now. Talk about devious. If Your Honour will excuse my back I have to turn around and address the Minister who is sitting behind me. The Minister is now in the Opposition backbenches. Is the Minister aware that there was a 400 per cent increase in the mining tax? I have not had a chance to research and find out why that came. The han. gentleman, I think, is doing an investment behind rny back. He is talking to his investment broker here now.

There is why we had the 400 per cent in the Mining Tax so the Minister could invest it with the han. the Member For Ferry land (Mr. Power) . SOME HON. MEMBERS : You cannot see either one of them . MR. WINDSOR: Twenty-six pounds gone, boy .. in one little The . -Minister sentence says we are . going to increase some fines and forfeitures. He did not tell us, by the tJJay, that we tacked 5 per cent on driver 1 s Licenses and vehicle licenses last year and picked up a whole bunch last year. AN HON. MEMBER : Maybe the point system. MR. WINDSOR : The point system will save you money in the long run you will find out.

All you have to do is look at thr:~ Budget there and see how much tJJE:~ are- picking up. In the Registry of Deeds alone $2.7 million. Now you cannot convince me that there arE! going to be so many pieces of property sold this year, so many mortgages put through, so many properties registered in the Registry of L41 March 23, 1990 Vo1 XLI Deeds that t:hat is an nonna1 growth. Two point sev~n million is a nice bit of monE!y. It happens to b.:~ a 35 per CE!nl: increase in the Registry of Deeds. AN HON. MEMBER: How did you calculate that? MR.

WINDSOR: Simply by taking the amount of money that was collected in the Registry of Deeds lc1st yE•atn, the amount of money this year. divj.de one by the other, and you will find you get 135 per cent. SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible) . MR. WINDSOR : Thirty-five per cent is small. The amount is $2.7 million. Percentage is important, Mr. Speaker. It ~akes a difference if you are going to register a mortgage on your nt:-w home. and i. t t s go i n g to co s t:. y o u $ 1. 0 0 0 o r j_ t is going to cost you $1350.

Three hundred and fifty dol1ars on a house is a heck of a lot oF money whE!n you are trying to get your first horne. It may not be much to the han. gE!ntlernan but. ·j_f you atnE! only making $9000 as a fishennen it is a heck of a lot, Mr. Speaker . Fines and forfeitures, little fines and forfeitur 'es of soi'TIE! sort. We do not really knot.1.1 what they are. They are just li st ed in the Budget l:here and we tAd 11 dig into the details of the Budget eventual.ly, $1 .5 rnill:ion. That is a fair bit of change to pick up on fines and forfeitures. It happ(!ns to be a 32 per cent increase.

The Registry of Det:-ds lAJas 35 and thts one is 32, interesting. Mr. SpeakE!r, the nE!Xt onE• 'is a good one. The Minisl:er oF Hea lth should enjoy thi s. He is noL No. 9 R41

here . This is a Health and Education Budget and what do we see in the Budget? Health fees and certificates increased by 45 per cent. There i·s a 45 per cent increase in the cost of health fees and certificates in a Budget that is suppose to be putting emphasis on Health and Education. The Minister of Education is amazed. He did not know that. I do not know what health certificates are. MS VERGE: They will probably be birth certificates. MR. WINDSOR: Birth certificates . MS VERGE: Vital Statistics . AN -HON. MEMBER: Ask me about student aid? , MR. WINDSOR: We will get to student aid.

My co~ieague will get into student aid, the Education ·critic. 45 per cent. So all of those fees, Mr. Speaker, have increased by 35- 45 per cent. And an innocuous little statement in the budget that picks up the $4.7 million. One little sentence says certain fines and forfeitures will be increased $4.7 million, one third of what they are going to pick up in their great payroll tax. Little bits and pieces out of thE! pockets of the consumer, the individual who has to come to Government for particular services and needs licenses and pays fees and fines and things of that nature. Mr.

Speaker, let us talk about the most devious, the most blatant grab of money of all in this budget. The most blatant one of all, and this is a very serious L42 March 23, 1990 Vol XLI situation, Mr. SpE!aker. As thE! Minister, I think, ·has mislead this House and has mislead the people of this House. We wi.ll get to his expenditures, you may rest assured, but he has mislead this House. Last year, Mr. SpeakE!r, the Minister in his Budget Spe~~ch said, and I quote, 11 The Newfoundland Liquor Corporation will be asked to gE!rlE!rate an additional $1 million from the sale of spirits and IJJines, and thE!

Newfoundland Liquor Licensing Board will implement a new fee schedule. There will be no increase in the price of beer resulting from this Budget. 11 A full paragraph in the Budget Speech last year and in the l:ist of revenue ITIE!asurE:~s -· thE!rE· is ill press release the Minister issued last year and again this YE!ar and in that release that he put out last year that outlined all of the revenue measures that IJJE!r•:.'! contained in the BudgE!t he had UH :! same paragraph, '$1 million will be ask~d from the Newfoundland Liquor Corporation. I rhis year I Mr. Speaker, not a word.

Not a word about additional Funding flnorn the Newfoundland Liquor Corporation until you look ins ide and you see . It is very simple. Revenue From Newfoundland Liquor Corporation 1989 - $79 million. Revenue from the Newfoundland Liquor Corporation 1990 - $81.5 million. $2.5 million more, Mr. Speaker, additional revenue from Newfoundland Liquor Corporation. The Minister found it important enough last year for $1 million to have a paragraph . in his Budget Speech and to list it in the revenue measures that he had taken, but $2.5 rni1lion this Yl~ar, he tried to slide that through. He tried to coveln it up.

And do you know what happened, Mr. Speaker? He does not know. I No . 9 R42

suspect - I cannot proue this ·- I am making it uery clear that I cannot proue this. The Liquor Corporation did not know he was going to announce it. They did not know. In fact, I do know that officials f