ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXI No.2 - 10:00 a.m., FRIDAY, 3 DECEMBER,1982. Prrnted by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R� (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon. Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ell ice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Con:ordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage Ja Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin- Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows ·Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St.

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LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, 3 December, 1982 Time - 10:00 a.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEA KER , Hon. J. Waldin g (St. Vital) : Presenting Petitions Reading and Receiving Petitions PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. C. SANTOS: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the First Report of the Standing Committee on the Rules of the House. MR. ACTING CLERK, G. Mackintosh: Your Commit­ tee met on Tuesday, September21, 1982 in Room 255 Legislative Building to consider matters referred. A letter of resignation from Mr.

Brian Corrin. a member of the Committee. was accepted and Mr. Don Scott was elected to replace him. The Officers of the Assembly. excep ting the Sergean t-at-Arms. were authorized to review

Chapter XI V of the Rules. Orders and Forms of Proceeding regardi ng Private Bills, and to draft a report of pro­ posed amendments to the Rules to improve proce­ dure on Private Bills. Your Committee recommends the elimination of typeset copy of Bil ls due to the capability of Word Processing facili ties prese ntly in place in the Office of the Legisl ative Counsel, to supp ly camera-ready copy of Bills for duplication. The Committee agreed to meet again in the near future to continue its deliberations on matters referred. All of which is respectfull y submitted. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Burrows.

MR. C. SANTOS: Mr. Speaker. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for St. Johns. that the report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried MR. SPEAK ER: The Hon ourab le Member for Springfield. MR. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker. I beg leave to present the First Report of the Standing Committee on Privi­ leges and El ections. MR. ACTING CLERK, G.

Mackintosh: Your Commit­ tee met for organization on August 17, 1982. to consider the matter of the selection of a person to be appointed as Clerk of the Legislative Assembly for the Province of Man itoba. as directed by the Lieut enant-Governor-in-Council in accordance with Order-in-Council No. 877 /82. It was agreed that the position be advertised in a number of local and national newspapers with a deadline date set for Sep­ tember 24. 1982. 8 Twenty-seven (27) applications were received from across Canada.

All applications were reviewed by the Committee on October 7, 1982 at which time five (5 ) candidates were selected for interviewing on October 26, 1982. Your Committee subsequ ently met to further consider its recommendation. Your Committee has agreed to make its report to the Lieu tenant-Governor-in-Council with the unani mous recommendation that Mr. W. H. (B inx) Remnant be appointed as Clerk of the Legislative Assembly. All of which is respectfull y submitted. MR. SPEA KER : The Hono urab le Member for Springfield. MR. A. ANSTETT: Mr.

Speaker, I move. seconded by the Honourable Member for Concordia, that the report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports . . Notices of Motion . Introduction of Bills .. . INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before we reach Oral Questio ns may I direct the attention of the members to the ga lle ry where we have 25 students of Grade 11 standing from Springfield Col legiate. The students are under the direction of Mr. Ott and are from the constituency of the Honourable Member for Springfield. On behalf of all of the members.

I wel come you here this morning. Also in the galle ry is Mr. W. Remnant who is the present Clerk of the Northwest Territories Legisl ature and Clerk Designate for this Legisl ature. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this morning. ORAL QUESTIONS Economy - unemployment and employment tax MR. SPEAK ER: The Hono ur able Leader of the Opposition. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker. a question to the First Minister. In view of the distres sing and alarming statis­ tics on unemployment in Man itoba. which show that there are 23.000 more people unemplo yed today than there were one year ago; in view.

Sir. of the absence of meaningful projects starting up such as Limestone to provide real and meaningful employment for the people of Mani toba, will the First Minister give some hope to the people of Manitoba this morning by an­ nouncing that he and his Government are prepared to withdraw the invidious employment tax imme­ diately because it acts as a deterrent to employm ent in this province?

Friday, 3 December, 1982 MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable the First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker. no. HON. S. LYON: Well, Mr. Speaker. is the First Minister saying to the House and to the people of Manitoba that he is prepared to disregard completely the almost unanimous resolution of the Union of Muni cipalities. of the Manitoba Chambers of Commerce which have told him in clear terms that that tax is acting against employment in Manitoba at a time when unemploy­ ment is at the highest rate since the Depression? Is he prepared to fly in the face of that kind of advice from the community? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker. the Union of Manit­ oba Muni cipalities are concerned about the possibil­ ity of that tax being levied in regard to munici palities. The Minister of Finance has made that very clear. It is the intent not to levy that tax against muni cipalities. indeed to ensure that municip alities do not pay the cost of that tax. Mr. Speaker. I know it is very easy for anyone to say, why was that particular tax imposed without giving some indication as to what alternative tax or what alternative measures ought to be employed. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition has indicated cut the spending.

The Honourable Leader of the Opposition should then identify for us, item by item by item. not just peanut items but substantial items because this government. unl ike the previous Gov­ ernment of the Provi nce of Mani toba, does not intend to kick the crutches out from underneath the handi­ capped in the province. HON. S. LYON: Well. Mr. Speaker. if the First Minister is asking the Opposition to help him with government - and God knows he needs help - Mr.

Speaker. will the First Minister then tell the House and the people of Manitoba this morning that he will agree with the suggestion made by the Opposition two weeks ago that his stumbling government should bring in new Estimates of Expenditure for 1982-8 3, the current Estimates at the present time. so that we can see the effect of his alleged Repriorization Program which has caused 24.000 more people to be unemployed in this province in one year? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker. if the Leader of the Opposition could calm down for a moment and reflect upon an impartial report that was issued last week - not a report that was issued by Bolsheviks or abnor­ mal people but by the Conference Board of Canada - he would note, Mr. Speaker. that the Conference Board report indicated that the Manitoba performance, 1982. in regard to the economy. was the best in Can­ ada. the best in Canada. Mr. Speaker.

I'm prepared to ackn owledge a fact which. indeed. the Leader of the Opposition never did ackn owledge when he was Leader of the Province of Manitoba. that there are very serious problems in the economy of Manitoba. There are very serious prob­ lems in every province in Canada as a whole and in the whole Western world. But. Mr. Speaker. I would urge. because I know Manitobans are reflecting and know the picture.

I think. much better than the Leader of the 9 Opposition, that this is part and parcel of a world, a North American crisis and province by province according to the Conference Board of Canada. an institution not dominated by New Democrats or Bol­ sheviks or Marxists. the Manitoba economic perfor­ mance is the best in Canada. 1982. HON. S. LYON: Well. Mr. Speaker. if my honourable friend the First Minister is satisfied with the employ­ ment record of this province under his guida nce for the last year. then let him be satisfied and let him take comfort from the Conference Board. Mr.

Speaker. on behalf of the 24, 000 more unemployed people. I ask him whether he's prepared to accede to what I con­ sider to be the generous offer we have made, that we will forego part of the Throne Speech Debate for this non-Throne Speech that was delivered yesterday, if he will bring in a new set of spending Estimates. Sir. which reflect the realities of the time and which will cause the une mployment situation of Manitoba to be handled somewhat more meritoriously than he and his fumbling government have been able to handle it thus far. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker. we welcome the opportunity to debate in the Throne Speech Debate. in regard to the projects and the proposals, the pro­ grams that this government is implementing in Manit­ oba - by the way. proposals that I think we can be justly proud of - in view of what is a difficult situation financially. economically. but this government is not standing still. This Gover nment is not heaping more misery upon misery as indeed the party opposite would do insofar as the economy and the financial situation in the Province of Manitoba. This Govern­ ment will not do that, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, because obviously the Leader of the Opposition has not had opportunity to read the Throne Speech. I would refer the Leader of the Oppo­ sition to the various items on pages two and three. specific items. Now. Mr. Speaker, if the Leader of the Opposition will read and examine those specific items he will ascertain that Manitoba is doing its fair share. But. Mr. Speaker. even with Manitoba doing its fair share. it requires other jurisdictions. other govern­ ments. to do their fair share as well which is not occurring. Public Utilities Committee HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, remembering what Winston Churchill once said, namely. that the free enterprise system represents the unequal sharing of blessings.

whereas the socialist system represented by my honourable friends opposite represents the equal sharing of misery. He needn't talk to this side of the House or the people of Mani toba about misery: they've had a year of it already. Mr. Speaker. as I said in the

preamble to my first question, there was no meaning ful job creation pro­ gram announced such as Limestone in the Throne Speech Debate. Is the First Minister prepared now to call the Public Utilities Committee to meet before Christmas while this House is sitting. in order that we may hear from Manitoba Hydro officials. including Mr. Blachford, the Preside nt. whose contract has not

Friday, 3 December, 1982 been renewed for reasons that we do not know yet, is he prepared to call that committee, have Mr. Blach­ ford report to us on the present state of development with respect to the Power Grid, the possibility of Limestone being started up so that there can be thou­ sands of meaningful jobs for the people of Manitoba who are unemployed? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, if I can also enjoy a

preamble, the so-called equal sharing of misery in this province, in this country, in North America, in the world economy, is not brought about as a result of social democratic measures. That misery, that unem­ ployment, that increase by way of social distress has been introduced to the world economy, the North American economy, the Canadian economy and the Manitoba economy because of tight money, high interest rate policies, which the previous administra­ tion in the Province of Manitoba were too meek and too timid to speak out against, Mr. Speaker. So, Mr.

Speaker. all this bashing about, about the socialist red herring will not camouflage what is the basic root problem of the present world economic situation. Mr. Speaker, insofar as the question pertaining to the calling of the Public Utilities Committee, that committee will be called in the normal way as it has, I believe, for each and every year during the past I don't know how many years, 20-25 years. There's no need, Mr. Speaker, nor would it be in the public interest to call that committee before Christmas; there's cer­ tainly no need for doing that. HON. S.

LYON: If the First Minister is saying that he will not cause the Public Utilities Committee to be called before Christmas. will he then give an undertak­ ing to the House that when the Public Utilities Com­ mittee is called in January, February of 1983, that he will have Mr. Blachford here to give testimony before that Committee? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I trust that the Leader of the Opposition is not indicating that he has a lack of confidence in the newly appointed manager of Manitoba Hydro, Mr. Amason. Mr.

Amason is fully competent, fully able to answer for Manitoba Hydro, deal with questions in the normal course. We have no lack of confidence in Mr. Amason on this side of the House. Maybe the Opposition has a lack of confi­ dence but I can't help them in respect to that, Mr. Speaker. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker. I can assure the First Minister we have no lack of confidence in the officials at Manitoba Hydro. We lack confidence in the Gov­ ernment and we lack confidence in the political hacks that they appoint to the Boards over there. Mr. Speaker, we don't lack confidence in Mr. Blach­ ford.

Why is the First Minister not prepared to call the committee so Mr. Blachford, who will be the President until early in January. can appear before the commit­ tee and give us his swan song, his ideas of Hydro during the three years that he has been the rather distinguished president of that organization? Will the First Minister not give an undertaking that Mr. Blach­ ford will be here when that committee is called, pref­ erably in December while he's still president or sub- 10 sequently in the winter of '83, so that we can hear from Mr. Blachford as well as from Mr. Amason about the progress of Manitoba Hydro?

HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker. when the Leader of the Opposition talks about political hacks I assume he's not referring to the two members of the present board that are carried on from HON. S. LYON: Start with the Chairman. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Leader of the Opposition is referring to the two members of the Manitoba Hydro Board that served during his administration that were continued on and are performing their services under this administra­ tion. Are those the political hacks that the Leader of the Opposition is referring to? Mr. Speaker.

I think it's an unfortunate reflection upon community-minded people that are providing their services re Manitoba Hydro. Not once, Mr. Speaker, did we refer - although we could have just as well as the Leader of the Opposition - to the members of the previous Manitoba Hydro Board under that administration as being political hacks, we choose not to participate in a witch-hunt. Mr.

Speaker. for that very reason we will not be calling the committee into being before Christmas to permit the Opposition members to participate in a political witch-hunt, we know that is their purpose and we have no intention to cooperate with the Opposition in that respect. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, is the First Minister afraid to have Mr. Blachford appear before a commit­ tee of this Legislature? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, no. This Govern­ ment intends to operate under normal rules, under normal procedure and we will continue to do so. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, if when the committee is called we move, in the absence of the Government taking the initiation to do so, that Mr. Blachford be called as a witness before the committee, will the First Minister and his people support that motion before the committee? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition can move whatever he wishes to. It seems to me, Mr. Speaker, and I may be incorrect but the Leader of the Opposition can correct me if I am wrong, that it was the Opposition when Government that pre­ vented Mr. Bateman from appearing before the committee. HON. S.

LYON: It was the Schreyer Government that prevented any citizens from appearing before the commission, before the Public Utilities Committee. When the former Premier of Manitoba, the former Assistant General Manager of Manitoba Hydro wanted to appear, the Government of which my honourable friend was a member. prevented those appearances. The Tritschler Commission commented upon their

3 December, 1982 activity at that time, sufficiently. Mr. Speaker, will this Government screw up its courage and have Mr. Blach­ ford appear before the Public Utilities Committee either in December, now. or later on in 1983 when the committee meets - Mr. Blachford, the present presi­ dent, chief executive officer of the committee? What has the Government got to hide? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, this Government has nothing to hide. It may be that the Leader of the Oppo­ sition has something to hide but not this Government. Mr.

Speaker, I don't know just how many times I'm expected to repeat answers to repeated questions but, again, we will handle it in the normal course. The normal course is that committee determines what wit­ nesses they call and what witnesses they don't. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. Unemployment increase MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Labour. Despite, Mr.

Speaker, the promises of the NOP Party in the election last fall to turn around the harsh economic circumstances of the past four years, can the Minister of Labour confirm that the seasonally adjusted unemployment rate in Manitoba increase this month over last month is the highest of any province in Canada? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. M. DOLIN: Mr. Speaker, our unemployment figures for this month do not please us, of course, they certainly don't please the people that are intimately involved in the unemployment scene.

The fact is, however though, that I'm sure members are aware that 'our primary manufacturing section, our mining and forest industries are almost completely shut down at this point and those figures are reflected within our unemployment figures this month. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the Minister. In spite of those promises and despite the assertions of the First Minister, can the Minister of Labour confirm that the increase in actual unemployment in Manitoba this month over the same month last year, increased by 79 percent com­ pared to a 54 percent increase nationally. HON. M.

DOLIN: Mr. Speaker, Manitoba has main­ tained its position as the third lowest province in the area of unemployment. We are in a position of our unemployment rates increasing now at the rate that some other provinces, particularly those largest popu­ lated provinces, increased in the past few months. Job Creation Projects - Payroll Tax MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker. it appears the Minis­ ter is satisfied with that type of answer. Let me ask her, Mr.

Speaker. in view of the fact that it appears that the job creation projects announced by the Government will only provide employment for some 2.000 to per­ haps 4,000 at the maximum. does the Minister intend 11 to recommend any action to the Government? Will she recommend withdrawal of the payroll tax, or will she recommend any other programs. Mr. Speaker, to provide employment for these 24,000 more unem­ ployed persons in Manitoba over last year and. in particular, Mr. Speaker, a terrible rate of unemploy­ ment among young people 15 to 24 years. HON. M. DOLIN: Well, Mr.

Speaker. there seem to be several questions involved in that one question. I would respond first to the job creation initiatives which are under way: we are doing all that we can to provide employment to the areas that are hardest hit. There are several different kinds of job creation initia­ tives that are taking place in the hardest hit areas. those one-industry towns in our north where the min­ ing and forestry industries are down. We have coop­ erated with the local people, with the working people. with the Federal Government in putting together opportunities for people to work.

There are other job creation initiatives taking place already that have helped thousands of people with thousands of work weeks and there are other thou­ sands, hundreds of thousands of dollars coming on stream in capital and labour intensive areas; expendi­ tures coming onstream this next year in cooperation again with the Federal Government, with municipali­ ties, with businesses. Businesses are being helped to hire people, they are responding overwhelmingly to that assistance. MR. G. ME RCIER: Mr. Speaker, a final question to the Minister. Can the Minister, Mr.

Speaker, not confirm that the payroll tax has increased unemployment in Manitoba, that there are employers, Mr. Speaker. across this province with difficult cash flows who are laying off people, reducing their wages and creating a great deal of unemployment in this province. Will she not recommend to the Government that that tax be withdrawn? HON. M. DOLIN: No, Mr. Speaker. I cannot confirm that.

The fact is that in my former position as Legisla­ tive Assistant to the Minister of Finance and Labour. when he held both portfolios, I was quite aware of all of the submissions that came in from the business sector asking us not to increase the sales tax. That sales tax would have hurt people far worse than any other kind of tax. We needed revenues, we needed to increase our revenues - this was a better way to do it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. Life insurance and pension management MR. H. ENNS: I direct my question, Mr.

Speaker, to either the First Minister or the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation. The question that I direct is, could the Government tell this House that the decision to enter into the life insurance and pension management field by this Government as announced yesterday in the Throne Speech, did that initiative arise as a result of consulta­ tions that the Government had with business leaders at their recent Business Summit Meeting in Portage la Prairie? Was this part of that frank and meaningful

3 December, 1982 discussion - put in the Premier's own words are indeed so meaningful? Can the Government tell me, did this suggestion arise at that business meeting and indeed was the business community consulted about this intrusion into this field? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: I'm answering only because the Minister was not at the Economic Summit Confer­ ence. Mr. Speaker, the specific question of life insu­ rance was not discussed but I want to say this, Mr.

Speaker, we did discuss labour, business and govern­ ment, the need for greater capital, greater capital in order to expand the economic activities of the Pro­ vince of Manitoba. That was thoroughly discussed, Mr. Speaker. I want to also advise the member that I have the very distinct impression, not just in the Eco­ nomic Summit Conference, but from other discus­ sions with leaders in the business community includ­ ing the interview last night by Mr.

Thompson of Monarch Life that the insurance industry is not con­ cerned about life insurance if the involvement by the Government is on a competitive basis and is self­ sufficient. They have no concerns; they're confident enough in their industry that they can compete and can compete successfully. I'm surprised that the Member for Lakeside seems to be somewhat timid in his appraisal of the ability of the private industry to compete. MR. H.

ENNS: It's not being timid; it's just having some knowledge and some experience as to how the rules of the game can be altered to favour the Crown corporation, such as, no farmers allowed to get a farm credit loan unless they buy their life insurance from the Crown corporations; such as, nobody employed in the school divisions not being able to buy life insu­ rance unless they are purchasing their life insurance from the Crown corporations. My rather naive busi­ ness friends have yet to learn some of those facts of life but, Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question.

Can the First Minister tell me how this particular initiative will help attract private sector investment that I think we all appreciate is so essential to job creation in this province, how will this particular initiative help improve and encourage private sector investment to come to Manitoba? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, this Government is interested in keeping capital in Manitoba and it's rather curious that we're returning to the debates of 1971-72, honourable members across the way, I recall, using the same sort of arguments 1 Oyears ago. Mr.

Speaker, MPIC has proved its capacity, its effi­ ciency, in the past 11 years. MPIC has some $150 million that are invested in schools, in hospitals, in municipalities. In fact, in many of the constituencies across the way local governments and hospitals and schools benefit from millions of dollars that are invested in constituencies of honourable members across the way. So, Mr. Speaker, there certainly is no contradiction in this fact ii we examine the record of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation and its success. 12 MR. H.

ENNS: Finally, perhaps the First Minister could advise his Minister of Labour and indeed, this House, more importantly the some 44,000 unem­ ployed Manitobans, just how this initiative is going to help their situation in life. Is it the intention of the Government to encapture some of the 24,000 addi­ tional unemployed this year over last year in that cor­ poration? Is it going to make them life insurance salesmen, or are they going to have to be in a position to be able to buy the insurance in the first instance? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Again I would request the member to read the Throne Speech which I believe he has in front of him. He will note that there are many items involving short-term effort, medium-term effort and long-term effort. Insofar as the potential of MPIC entering into life insurance, that is a long-term effort to ensure that there's a continuation of the pattern of MPIC insofar as providing a service, freedom of cho­ ice and at the same time ensure that there's capital for social investment for the Province of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek.

Employee tax on small business MR. F. JOHNSTON: It's nice to be back among the children again, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Eco­ nomic Development and it does refer to the employee tax that has been imposed upon the small businesses of this province that need cash flow and it does also refer to the fact that the bankruptcies in this province are higher than they have been in the history of the province.

Does the Minister of Economic Develop­ ment intend to make representation to the Premier who says that he agrees with this tax, and the Minister of Labour who says she agrees with this tax, intend to impress upon them the dire straits of small business in this province and let them know the bankruptcy fig­ ures - if they don't know it - and request her Cabinet to lift the payroll tax in this province? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. HON. M.

SMITH: One of the very basic facts of life in the survival and prosperity of small businesses is not only do they need to come out in the black on their profit-loss side - and I am sure that's the concern that my friend opposite has - but they also have to have people who will buy what they are producing and the kind of taxes that we had available in our choice included a sales tax, Mr. Speaker, which would have severely cut the capacity of people to have some demand for the services and the goods that small businesses in Manitoba produce. Mr.

Speaker, in examining the impact of the various taxes we found, regrettably, because we don't like any new tax any more than anyone else does, but we have a responsibility to protect and preserve as much as we can the economic well-being of all Manitobans, we chose this particular tax and I submit, Mr. Speaker, that its impact on small business is not all negative because it does preserve an effective demand.

3 December, 1982 MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that the Minister listen to the Chamber of Commerce of Manitoba, who she claims she listens to continu­ ally, and that she take a look at the statistics of the unemployment, the people who have been let out by small business, their salaries usually add up to the 1.5 percent sales tax that they have to pay. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to ask the Minister if she does not believe that the employment tax that's imposed upon employers in the Province of Manitoba is a deterrent to anybody who wants to consider investing in the Province of Manitoba. because we're only one of two provinces in Canada that have such a tax. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, it is a result of very narrow and simplistic thinking that comes up with that analysis. The total cost of doing business, Mr.

Speaker, in the Province of Manitoba in the City of Winnipeg is second lowest of all the cities in Canada, because it's the total package of costs of doing business that are relevant. There's utility costs; there's housing costs; there is the package of taxes; and when you add them all up, Mr. Speaker, you look at all the factors that are relevant, Manitoba and Winnipeg are second best in Canada. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. Abortion clinics MR. L. SHERMAN: Thanks, Mr. Speaker. I wonder if I could have that time subtracted from question period. Mr.

Speaker. my question is to the Honourable the Minister of Health and I would ask him if he can assure this House and the people of Manitoba for what he is reported to have assured a group of individuals in his constiuency, namely, that he will not accredit any abortion clinic of the type proposed by Dr. Henry Morgentaler, as a designed abortion facility in Mani­ toba under his authority as Minister of Health. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, I don't know which group my honourable friend is talking about I think maybe this is a group that I don't remember having any of these meetings with but I certainly will not duck the issue at all. What I said was that we expect the people of Manitoba to obey the law of the land and we'll make sure that this is done. MR. L. SHERMAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, I'm gratified to have that minimal kind of assurance from the Minister on this question.

But my question to him is, in his authority as Minister of Health, under the Criminal Code of Canada as it exists at the present time and up until the point in time at which it may be changed, is he prepared to assure the people of Manitoba and this House that he will not designate such a facility as a recognized and accredited abortion cl'inic? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker. I think. yes. a straight answer. I think the first answer that I gave is a 13 straight answer. Under the situation now it would not be legal and therefore that's the answer. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain.

Tabling of quarterly report MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance. Will the Minister of Finance today table the quarterly report for the period ending Sep­ tember 30th, 198 2? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: No, Mr. Speaker, but I do expect to be tabling it early next week. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Bran­ don West. Fire College - Brandon MR. H. CARROLL: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Labour.

Some two years ago the then Minister of Agriculture in one of his finer announce­ ments - probably as fine an announcement as he ever made in the City of Brandon - announced that there would be a Fire College and that it would be built in the City of Brandon. My question to the Minister of Labour, is will this Government proceed with the Fire College and will it be in the City of Brandon? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. M. DOLIN: Mr.

Speaker, I won't fall prey to the puns that are flying around here, however, I am cur­ ious that the Minister of Agriculture did announce this particular project. Perhaps that's the place in which we should transfer the prospective plans. That partic­ ular Fire College is still certainly being suggested, is being considered and will be considered in our Esti­ mate preparation this year MR. H. CARROLL: Mr. Speaker, I would like a bit of clarification. There didn't seem to be any mention of location when the consideration was made.

There was the commitment on the part of the then Government that it would be in Brandon and I would like to have some confirmation from the Minister that it will still be in Brandon. HON. M. DOLIN: Mr. Speaker, the consideration for the building of the Fire College or the expansion of the fire-training facilities is in Brandon but which consti­ tuency it lies in I'm not quite clear. MR. H. CARROLL: Mr.

Speaker, to indicate how magnanimous I am, I couldn't care less whether it was in Brandon East or Brandon West and if that is a holdup I would like the Minister to advise whether it would make any difference to her because I am very easy. HON. M. DOLIN: Mr. Speaker, if there was a question contained in that statement. I didn't get it.

3 December, 1982 MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day . In the matter of the consideration of the Speech of Her Honour, the Lieutenant-Governor. MATTER OF PRIVILEGE MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, the matter of House privilege which I rise upon this morning has to do with the Minister of Finance holding this Legislature and parliamentary process in contempt. In the course of my remarks, Sir, I can assure you that they will be followed by a substantive motion which will allow this House to deal with the subject under the question of privilege. Mr.

Speaker, it has to do with the quarterly reports which our Government implemented in 1978. By way of background, Sir, you may recall that during the previous NDP Government's administration there were no quarterly reports provided, and hence the Legisla­ ture and the people of Manitoba were unaware of the financial condition of the Government between the time of the tabling of the Budget and the tabling of the Public Accounts. Consequently, Sir, in 1977, for example, the Budget tabled in this House showed that on a combined basis the deficit was projected to be $109,5 13,400.00.

During the course of the summer of 1977, and continuing through the election of 1977, the Opposition attempted to find out from the Govern­ ment what the projected deficit for that year was at any given period of time during the summer and the election. We were unable to find that out, Mr. Speaker, the Government continued to maintain that it was a figure closely aligned to the original projection of 109 million. We discovered, on assuming government in 1977, Mr. Speaker, that indeed the projected deficit at the time was $225,059,000.00. Mr.

Speaker, accordingly our Government insti­ tuted a procedure whereby we filed quarterly reports. That filing of reports, preparation of reports, was begun in 1978, and the quarterly report for the second quarter of 1978 was filed on November 10, 1978. Sir, on November 16, 1979, the quarterly report was filed. The quarterly report for 1980 was filed on November 28 of that year and last year, in 1981, the quarterly report was filed on November 27th.

And, Sir, again by way of background, you may recall that we were charged by the Opposition, by the NDP, who had then been elected to Government, were the Government­ elect, they charged us with delaying the distribution of the quarterly report.

And, indeed, as has been menti­ oned in this House, Sir, you may recall that the Premier-elect charged, and I quote "that certainly the people of Manitoba have been misled." There then began a pattern, Sir, of systematic dis­ tortion and manipulation regarding the public presen­ tation of the financial picture of this province, starting with Saul Miller saying that when we got a look at the books the deficit appeared to be going toward 300 million. The Minister of Finance, soon after he was appointed, spoke in the same vein.

We then saw, when the spending Estimates were presented to this House, Sir, that the public presentation, through press re­ leases, public presentation of spending, tried to show 14 that there was really only a 14-point-something per­ cent increase in spending, when the method of past practice of presentation would show that the spend­ ing was indeed over 16 percent, and the information tabled in this House showed that it was over 16 percent.

That has been a pattern of manipulation of the pres­ entation of the information that this Government has been following, and the Minister of Finance has indeed had the gall, Sir, to be quoted in a press release earlier this summer, that his Government prefers to be up front, to be up front in its presentation of information. Sir, we are here in this House now to begin the consideration of the Throne Speech amid wild specu­ lation as to the size of the deficit which this govern­ ment faces. The Minister of Finance has this morning refused to table the quarterly report in the House.

The Minister of Finance was asked to table the report today in order that this House -( Interjection)- this question of privilege, Mr. Speaker, takes precedence over a point of order and the Government House Leader should know that. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. This House has never established which takes precedence, a point of order or a point of privilege, however, I think I did write to the members on that particular point. I will recognize what point of order the Government House Leader has. HON. R.

PENNER: First of all, the member says that he is raising a point of privilege and that he intends to move a motion and his

preamble to that motion, in fact, is an address on a motion which has not yet been made, and is inordinately long and does not constitute a proper introduction to a motion on privilege. Secondly, he has stated that the Minister of Finance has refused to table the quarterly report when the Minister of Finance, a few moment ago, said that he will table the quarterly report early next week. There has been no refusal and that is a misrepresentation of what was said by the Minister of Finance. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I wish to proceed with my point of privilege. MR.

SPEAKER: If there is no one else who wishes to speak to the same point of order. I'm not sure that the first point raised by the Honourable Government House Leader was valid since the House has never put any time limit on any

preamble to a motion of privilege. The second point, yes, I heard the Minister say the same thing and I believe that the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain also heard the same thing. The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Indeed, Sir, the Minister of Finance refused to table the quarterly report today. The ques­ tion was asked to the Minister of Finance, will he table the quarterly report today? The Minister of Finance said "No." We have reason to believe, Sir, that the quarterly report is available for distribution, and what this government is attempting to do is to hide the information in the quarterly report so that it is not

Friday, 3 December, 1982 available to the Leader of the Opposition when he speaks on the Throne Speech on Monday. I submit, Sir, that this kind of cover-up and withhold­ ing of information is a question of privilege of the House and I, therefore, move, Sir, seconded by the Member for Fort Garry, that this House direct the Minister of Finance to table the quarterly Financial Report for the period ending September 30, 1982 prior to today's adjournment. MR. SPEAKER: Does the Ministe r of Finance wish to advise the Chair on this matter? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr.

Speaker, I understand that there are some people who may wish to speak to the question of whether or not the motion is in order. In case it is in order I would like to make a few comments. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The motion has not yet been put to the House and there may well be some debate as to whether it is proper and in order. The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: I intend to raise a point of order with respect to the motion. Would you prefer, Sir, to put the motion and then have me speak to the point of order? MR.

SPEAKER: No, I would prefer to be advised by any of the members here whether the motion is, in fact, in order and proper at this time. HON. R. PENNER: I raise two questions as to why I think that the motion is out of order. The member rose and said that he was raising a question of privilege. The motion is not addressed in any way as a question of privilege. Secondly, if indeed it was a question of privilege, it is my understanding, at least from Beau­ chesne, that there would be required a notice of motion at least an hour before the sitting of the House for the debate of that.

But if that is not so, a question of privilege, which the Member for Turtle Mountain said he was raising, must be addressed as a question of privilege. All we have before us is a motion directing the Minister of Finance to do something for which there is no statutory authority. The motion is out of order on two grounds. MR. RANSOM: Sir, in speaking to the point of order. of course, the Government House Leader perhaps now realizes that there is no notice required for this type of motion.

The motion that has been proposed does provide an opportunity to redress the House Privilege, and that is. that if the Minister of Finance tables the quarterly report today, then the matter of privilege will have been dealt with. MR. SPEAKER: Does the Minister of Finance wish to speak to the same point of order?. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, yes, on a point of order with respect to the statement made by the Member for Turtle Mountain it was. at least in part, inaccurate. in that I believe that he referred to 1979 tabling as being somewhere around the 10th of 15 November.

Indeed, it was on the 2nd of November that the report was tabled and I would point out that the year before that it was on the 10th of November. Last year, when we had an election, they couldn't get it together; it came after the 17th of November and that man, who was the Finance Minister at that time, that man is now telling us that we're using the Financial Report for politics. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I believe the Minister is tending to debate the issue rather than offer his advice. The Honourable Member for Lakeside to the same point. MR. H.

ENNS: On the same point of order, it could be of some assistance to the Chair, Sir. I think what is obvious, members do wish to debate this motion that is before you and I suggest to you, with all due respect, that the motion be put to the House where the debate will be held and the issue will be resolved one way or another, in the normal manner, the way in which we deal with motions in this Chamber. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R.

PENNER: My understanding, Sir, is this, that when a member raises something alleged to be a mat­ ter of privilege, that that in itself does not decide the question: you cannot unilaterally say, "this therefore is a matter of privilege." It is for the Speaker to decide, on perusing the motion made, whether indeed it raises a question of privilege of the House. It is, of course, recognized not for the Speaker to decide on the sub­ stantive remedy which is asked.

Once the Speaker has ruled that, indeed, it raises a privilege of the House, then debate will proceed to the point raised in the proposed disposition, but it is for the Speaker to rule whether or not it raises a question of privilege, and my point of order is that the motion does not raise a privilege of the House at all. I would ask you to rule on that. MR. SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Member for Virden wish to speak to the point? MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Speaker, I realize you have a very difficult problem facing you and I hope that I may be able to offer you some assistance in arriving at whether or not this motion is in order. and I would suggest to you, Sir, that in the course of setting rules in this Chamber we have used Beauchesne as a backup source for when we are unclear on our own Rules, rules that we ourselves have set for this Assem­ bly. So I would suggest to you, Sir, that if you are seeking a solution on how to deal with this that you refer to the Rules of this Assembly as they take prece­ dence over Beauchesne. MR.

SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Minister of Finance wish to speak to the same point of order? HON. V. SCHROEDER: On the point of order. There is a suggestion that a report is required to be tabled today. It is a report for which I do not believe there is

3 December, 1982 any statutory requirement at all -(Interjection)- I am not debating, I am talking to the point of whether or not there is a matter of privilege. Mr. Speaker, just this morning, on our desks we find a list of departmental reports which are required to be tabled, by law, within 15 days or whatever of the opening of the Legislature. This document does not appear there; this document does not appear as being required for today. And, Mr. Speaker, the idea that this is a matter of privilege is nothing short of nonsense.

The man is attempting to use that type of statement, although he used the report politically, he is trying to use it again politically now for his leadership, rather than coming here and discussing matters that are currentl y before the House. Mr. Speaker, again in 1979, he was able to table this document, bring it forward on November 2nd. In the year of the election he couldn't do it until 1 O days after the election, and that was 20 days after he had been able to do it in 1979 -(Interjection)- Mr. Speaker, I am speaking on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please.

I believe the Honourable Minister of Finance was advising the Chair as to whether the motion should be put before the House or not, and I think he was straying some­ what from that point. Perhaps he would keep his remarks to the proposed amendment of whether or not it is a matter of privilege. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, may I suggest to you, Sir, and the House, that the matter of privilege derives from the fact that we are embarked now upon one of the major debates of any Legislative Session, namely, the Throne Speech Debate addressing the program proposed by the Government of the Day for the ensuing fiscal year. One of the key ingredients of that debate obviously is the Address of the Leader of the Opposition, or the Leader of any Opposition parties in response to the Address from the Throne which represents the posi­ tion put forward by the Leader of the Province, namely, the First Minister.

For the Leader of the Opposition to have to go into that crucial examination and evaluation of the Government's position, without access to information that is fundamental to that kind of debate - and that has always in the past been avail­ able to legislators by this point in time- constitutes the matter of privilege, Sir. That is where the privileges of the House are breached; that is where the privileges of all members of this Chamber are breached.

The information is not being made available to permit a mean i ngfu I contribution by the Leader of the Opposi­ tion in one of the most crucial debates of the session. I therefore submit, Sir, that it does represent a major breach of the privileges of the Members of this House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, on the point of order. The Honourable Member from Virden is good enough to advise me as to the relationship between Beau­ chesne and the Rules. I'm aware of the relationship between Beauchesne and the Rules.

On this particu­ lar point the Rules, our Rules, are silent. They refer, 16 with respect to privilege, to Beauchesne. I am quite right in referring to you, Sir, Beauchesne. Beau­ chesne is quite clear. Once the claim - and I'm citing, Sir, Citation 84, Page 25, Fifth Edition - "Once the claim of a Breach of Privilege has been made it is the duty of the Speaker to decide if a prima facie case can be established.

The Speaker requires to be satisfied, both that the privilege appears to be sufficiently involved to justify him in giving such precedence or, as it is sometimes put, that there is a prima facie case that a Breach of Privilege has been committed. And also that the matter has being raised at the earliest opportunity." I don't dispute the "earliest opportun­ ity," that was not the point which I raised as a point of order. My point of order was, in asking you for a ruling, that there is no question of privilege that has been raised.

A privilege of the House, the Member would have to show, and he did not in his rambling, rhetorical, politi­ cal

preamble, that there was a duty, statutory or in the Rules, to table this information at a given time. That he could not do because there is no such duty on the Minister of Finance or on the Government. His failure to do so makes the case which I am making, namely, that there is no privilege of the House that has been raised and I ask you to rule accordingly. MR. SPEAKER: The Minister of Health on the same point. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes, Mr. Speaker. on the same point of order.

I'd like to state that there is no statutory regulation that determines when it should be filed; secondly, that the Minister said that he will pro­ vide this information; thirdly, if there is any doubt about the regulation and privilege, it is quite clear that no one should imply motive to Members of this House: fourthly, there is no reason in the world that the Leader of the Opposition should be limited to speak­ ing on Monday. He can speak in the next 8 days so there is certainly no breach at all, Sir, I think it is quite clear on all these circumstances. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden to the same point. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I noticed the Honourable Government House Leader made ref­ erence to Beauchesne and also to our Rules. He did not make any mention, Sir, of another very important part of our Rules, and that is, former Speakers' Rul­ ings, and I know, Sir. that you do have a compiled list of former Speakers' Rulings which become part and parcel of the Rules of this Assembly. So, Mr.

Speaker, when you are making any decision. and I know it is a difficult one, I suggest very strongly, Sir, that perhaps you may wish to refer to former Speakers' Rulings dealing with matters of privilege, and how they have been handled in the past. And that is why, Sir, I had suggested that you make reference to our Rules and customs and proceedings of this Assembly. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance to the same point. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Yes. Sir. One further point

Friday, 3 December, 1982 with respect to this matter of privilege, and that there is that there is a question of whether it is possible or not possible to comply with this requ est. The fact is that the document has not yet been printed. The fact is that if we were in a position where we approved of this motion, as far as I am aware, we would not be able to comply with it today, and therefore, it would be impossible for me to comply with this requ est, if it were approved by the Hou se. MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Member for Turtle Mount ain to the same point. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, the Government House Leader has indeed cited the appropriate

section of Bea uchesne. That is precisely the point to which my remarks were addressed, Sir, to satisfy you indeed that there was that case in existence. And, although there is no legislative requirement, and I never made the point that there was a legislative requirement, precedence during the history of the presentation of quarterly reports shows that they have always been made available prior to this time. We have reason to believe that the report is available for tabling, Sir.

The remarks by the Minister of Finance have nothing to do with whether or not this is a qu estion of privilege; he wants to debate it, Sir. I sug gest that the. point of privilege be rul ed in order and that we debate it. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. I thank all members of the House who have offered their advice on this matter. I do not find any requirement in our Rules on the matter. The closest that Beauchesne seems to deal with this is that a Minister cannot be compelled to answer a question; that is as close as I can get.

I'm not sure whether the Member for Virden was entirely serious in wanting this matter taken under advisement because it would seem to make the matter redundant if I were to do so. As has also been pointed out, there is no statutory requirement for the tabling of this particular report. Neither do I find that the House is able to force a Minister to really table a report or any other document on a particular date. The Minister has, indeed, said that he will do this, but it is somewhat later than the motion requires.

I do not find this to be a matter of privilege of the Hous e and I so rule that there is no matter of privilege. The Honour able Member for Turtle Mount ain. MR. B. RANSOM: I respectfu lly challenge your rul­ ing, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The motion then before the House is shall the decision of the Chair be upheld? Those in favour please say aye. Those against say nay. In my opinion the ayes have it and declare the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Yeas and nays, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Call in the members.

The question before the House is shall the ruling of 17 the Chair be sustained? A STANDING VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: YEAS Messrs. Adam, Anstett, Ashton, Buck laschuk, Car­ roll, Cowan, Desjardins, Mrs. Dodick, Messrs. Doern, Ms Dolin, Messrs. Evans, Eyler, Fox, Harapiak, Harper, Kostyra, Lecuyer, Mackling, Malinowski, Para siuk, Pawley, Penner, Ms Phillips, Messrs. Plohman, San­ tos, Schroeder, Scott, Mrs. Smith, Messrs. Storie, Uruski, Uskiw. NAYS Messrs. Banman, Blake, Brown, Downey, Driedger, Enns, Filmon, Gourlay, Graham, Mrs. Hammond, Messrs.

Hyde, Johnston, Kovnats, Lyon, Manness, McKenzie, Mercier, Mrs. Oleson, Messrs. Orchard, Ransom, Sherman, Steen. MR. ACTING CLERK: Yeas 31 ; Nays 22 . MR. SPEAKER: The motion is carried and the Chair is <>ustained. ORDERS OF THE DAY THRONE SPEECH MR. SPEAKER: On the matter of the consideration of the Speech of Her Honour the Lieute nant-Governor. The Honou rable Member for Riel. MRS. D. DODICK: Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Thompson, that a humble address be presented to Her Honour the Lieutenant- Governor as follows: We, Her Majesty's dutif ul and loyal subj ects, the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, in Session as­ sembled, humbly thank Your Honour for the gracious speech which Your Honour has been pleased to address to us at the opening of this present Session. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Member for Riel. MRS. D. DODICK: Mr. Speaker, I am both honoured and pleased to rise at this time to move acceptance to the Speech from the Throne.

The performance of this Gover nment over the past year, and the policies and the programs to be pursued in the present Session once again affirm my confidence in the present Government as a Government of innovation and energy, integrity and compassion. a Government that is an active and dedicated participant in the demo­ cratic dialogue between the people and their repre­ sentatives that is so fundamental to the very function­ ing of our society. Before I consider the experie nce of the past year and the various programs included in the Throne Speech in more detail, I would first like to congr atu­ late you, Mr.

Speaker, on your performance in over-

Friday, 3 December, 1982 seeing the activities of this House. In my maiden speech to the Legislature last winter, I expressed great confidence in your capability as a Speaker based on your esteemed record as a parl iamentarian. Your performance during the la st Session has further enhanced my confidence in you and I look forward again to serving Manitobans under your careful gui­ dance. I might add, Mr. Speaker, that I, along with the other Members of this House, was quite concerned to hear of your health problems earlier in the spring.

I am pl eased to see your rapid recovery and sincerely wish you the best of health and happiness in the future. At this time I would also like to thank the Honoura­ ble First Minister and his Executive Council for bes­ towing upon me the honour of moving acceptance of the Speech from the Throne. Manitobans have su rely been well served by such a gifted group of Ministers and I am fu lly confident that they will continue to be served. I think special mention should be made to the new members added to the Cabinet since the last time this House considered a Speech from the Throne.

These individua ls have brought to their respective offices not only great sk ill and learning but also bountiful energy, dedication and compassion, and I commend them highly for that. Finally, Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this oppor­ tunity to express my gratitude to the residents of Riel Constituency who continue to support me as a repre­ sentative. Over the past year I've had the occasion to talk to hundreds of constituents and to consider their ideas, their recommendations and their criticisms.

While I have made every effort to get into my consti­ tuency and to initiate communication with the resi­ dents of Riel. I have also benefited greatly from a highly concerned and civic-minded public who have made an equal effort to approach me. For this, Mr. Speaker, I am most grateful as my task as a represen­ tative of the people of Riel can only be performed adequ ately if I am aware of their needs and their desires, their ideas and their demands.

It is my sincere hope that my constituents and Manitobans as a whole will continue to voice their concern and to make their needs known to me and to each of us sitting in this House today. Likewise, Mr. Speaker, I hope that we will all, as loyal servants of the people, continue to value the contributions of our ele ctorates for it is from them that we gain, not only the power to govern but also the capacity to govern. With that in mind, Mr. Speaker.

I would like now to give my brief consideration to the performance of our present Government and to the various proposa ls offered to us yesterday in the Speech from the Throne. Over a year ago on November 17, 1981, the people of Manitoba ele cted a New Democratic Government to lead our province. In doing so, Mr. Speaker. they did more than cast a ballot for an individual candidate or even a particular party. They voiced overwhelming support for a certain set of principles, policies and programs.

Throughout the campaign the contending parties had exposed their ideas to public scrutiny and had encouraged the electorate to make its choice. On November 17 the electorate opted for the princi­ ples and ideas of the New Democratic Party and it placed its trust in the New Democratic Party to honour 18 its expressed commitments to the goals of social democracy, and to impl ement the special proposals that would achieve the real ization of these goals. As the record shows, Mr.

Speaker, the New Demo­ cratic Party has not let the people of Manitoba down even though we are greatly hampered by a severe and prolonged economic recession. In the first Session alone, our Government moved quickly to implement 11 of the 15 el ection promises in an effort to alle viate some of the more oppressing problems facing Manit­ obans. While I do not have the time to mention all of these programs I would like to take a moment to men­ tion several that are particularly important to the Con­ sitituency of Riel. To begin with, Mr.

Speaker, the passage of The Residential Rent Regulation Act has been a great benefit to my constituents. Obviously, the tenants had gained much from such a policy for they can now be much more secure in the knowledge that the hard­ ships facing them in these tight economic times will not be further aggravated by unfair rent increases. In addition to tenants, however, I have been told by the small business people in the area that they too have benefited from rent regulat ions.

Without the threat of high rental costs, tenants have been able to direct their resources to other consumer products and the sma ll businesses in the area have been the benefi­ ciaries of this shift in spending. While many residents of Riel have benefited both directly and indirectly from the imposition of rent reg­ ul ations, they have also gained advantages from a number of other programs such as the freeze on tui­ tion fees and the transit fares, the eyeglass program for senior citizens, The Community Child Day Care Standards Act, and so on. I could go on, Mr. Speaker. but I believe I have made my point.

When the people of Manitoba placed their trust in the .New Democratic Party to fulf il! their election commitments, we did not treat that trust lightly. We listened to what the people had to say, we considered it carefu lly and we set out to meet their needs and demands in the most direct and economic manner possible. Before I go on to consider some of the prop­ osals presented to the House in yesterday's Speech from the Throne, I would like to ela borate on a point I made earlier in my opening remarks. In short, Mr.

Speaker, I said that I was ple ased to be a part of a Government that I think has been an active participant in the democratic dialo gue that takes place between the members of society and their representatives. By democratic dialogue, Mr. Speaker, I mean the process whereby attitudes. ideas, needs, desires and demands are shared in an open and informed exchange between the people and their Government. This exchange of views leads to a broader understanding of the problems faced by society and to a general consensus about how to deal with those prob lems.

The resu lt is a truly representa­ tive democracy and a more socia lly conscious public policy. In my view, Mr. Speaker. the democratic dialogue is essential to the ult imate achievement of social demo­ cracy, the goal to which the New Democratic Party in one way or another has been working for al most 50 years. Social democracy takes as its central value that all people are fundamentally equal and that the true

Friday, 3 December, 1982 social, legal, political and economic equ ality can be achieved through the active invol vement of the state in society. Gover nment is seen as the only mechanism for alle­ viating social ills, for overcoming poverty, sickness and undered ucation, for eliminating oppression of all types and for the protection of right of the minorities.

However, in order for Gover nment to be closely in touch with the society, in order that Government itself does not become an agent of oppression or a force of inequ ality, it is essential that the Government takes its initial directions from the people themselves and that it continue to seek direction and build consensus on an ongoing basis. In essence, Mr. Speaker, it is essen­ tial that the Government be an active participant in the democratic dialogue.

As I said earlier, it is my opinion that the New Demo­ cratic Government has contributed greatly to this process during its term in office and, in view of the Speech from the Throne, I am confident that it will continue to do so. I have already pointed out that this Government has been unrelenting in its efforts to meet the election commitments in order to deal with the problems facing all Manitobans and in order to retain the trust and the confidence of the electorate.

In addition this Government has committed itself to con­ sulting the population on a continuous basis and enhancing its awareness of the needs and the demands of the electorate. Perhaps the best example of this, Mr. Speaker, was the Economic Summit Conference recently held in Portage la Prairie which broug ht together Govern­ ment, bus iness, labour, Native and farming groups in an effort to formulate an economic development strategy.

As we are all well aware the economy is extremely complex and it is only in blending the views of suc h major factors as these that we can possibly hope to prepare Manitoba to take full advantage when the harsh international economic recession comes to an end. Keeping this in mind, Mr. Speaker, I would like to now address myself to several of the proposals includ ed in the Speech from the Throne that are par­ ticu larly of an interest to me and to my constituents of Riel. To begin with, Mr.

Speaker, I am particu larly plPased to see the provis ions in the Throne Speech for the development of freedom of information policy and for the passage of the Conflict of Interest legislat ion . For the effective functioning of a democratic society MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. Order please. I'm having some difficult y in hearing what the honou rable member is saying. The Honou rable Member for Riel. MRS. D. DODICK: For the effective func tioning of a democratic society it is crucial that interested persons have access to the information so that action of Government may be properly scrutini zed.

Likewise the confidence of the general pub lic can only be main­ tained when the elected representatives are acting purely in the public interest and to formulate proce­ dures where necessary, to ensure that conflicts of interest do not occur and to gua rantee to the public that their representatives' actions in this regard 19 are sincere. As well, I am pleased to see that the initiatives already taken by this Government with regard to wife and child abuse will be further developed, and that the needs of the unfortunate victims of physical and emo­ tional abu se will finally be met.

However. we must be ever mindful of the fact that our actions in this regard are but a beginning. We must continue to consult with centres such as Osborne House, with other organiza­ tions such as the Childre n's Aid Society and the Manitoba Action Committee on the Status of Women to ensure that we are actu ally dealing with the central problems and that they will be somehow alleviated. The Government's proposal with regard to health policy are also to be commended.

Gerontolo gy is the area that has for too long been neglected and with the population aging at the rate it presently is, it is essen­ tial that we act now to upgrade this vitai element of our health policy. Another area that has not received adequate con­ sideration in the past and which is essential to offset­ ting skyrocketing health costs is that of preventive medicine. In redirecti ng resources to improving maternal and child health and to reviewing lifestyles and chronic diseases, we are aiming at overcoming unfortuna te and costly illnesses before they develop. The benefit of this approach is twofold.

First, it is of supreme value that we improve the general health of the population so that the people can enjoy a higher qu ality of life. Second, with the health care costs escalating as they are, the only way to truly realize savings apart from cutting services to the sick is to reduce the number of people requiring these services. Clearly, we all stand to gain by an increased emphasis on preventive medicine. Related to the concept of preventive medicine is the proposal for mandatory seatbelts, helmet and child­ restrai nt legislati on.

As pointed out in the Throne Speech itself. such legislation is enforced in several other provinces and the benefits to be gained have been borne out by evidence. On this basis alone, we should all offer our support. However, we must keep in mind the fact that such legislation is not well received in all sectors of the population. For some it is seen as an interference in the area of personal preference and privacy.

In weigh­ ing these competi ng values the desire to protect the individuals from death and injury, and the desire to refrain from und ue interf ;rence in private choice, I think that we should give full consideration to the entrenched nature of the status quo. What we are proposing is a fairly drastic change and yet we are convinced that it is warranted because we have been made aware of the consequenc es. In order for the general pu blic to come around to our view it is essential that we accompany the imple mentation of this legislation with a comprehensive program of pub­ lic education and consul tation.

In this way we can keep abreast of the primary concerns of the opposing groups while at the same time acting to alter their views through education and information. Again, we can see the central utility of exercisi ng the democratic dialogue. Another concern in the field of health policy. which is particularly relevant to Riel Constituenc y, relates to

3 December, 1982 the mental health. As a Government we must approach this issue with an open eye and a sincere desire to improve the existing state of affairs. We must also be fully aware of the oppo sing force that comes into play and of the technical, and in many cases ill-conceived nature of the problems we are dealing with. In my own constituenc y, Riel, there is situated the St. Amant ward for severely physically and mentally handicapped persons.

There are some who are strongly opposed to the institution and in the treat­ ment of these patients who urge that care be focused in private homes and that Government funds be directed toward adapting such private homes for han­ dl ing these patients. There are others who argue that an institutional system such as St. Amant, which incorporates the extensive use of private cottages, is the answer and there are still others who oppose both of these views and suggest variations of care for the severely handicapped.

As is evident, the resolut ion of this issue and of the related mental health issues requires much consideration and compromise. As we are all aware, there a number of proposals in the Speech from the Throne and I' m sure that I could spend all morning dealing with them, however, I will leave that to some of my able colleagues. Instead, Mr. Speaker, I would like to devote the remai nder of my time to a brief discussion of a development in my constituency of Riel that I feel is a very good example of the argument that I have put forward today.

I am spea king of a hous ing project for the handicapped and the senior citizens of Ma nitoba sponsored by the Lion's Club of Riverside that is to be situated on the south-west corner of St. Anne's Road and Worthington. In my op inion, this hou sing development repre­ sents the perfect example of operat ion of the demo­ cratic dialogue. It was initiated by a non-Protestant citizens' group, the Lion's Club of Riverside, who had enli sted the cooperation of essentia lly four levels of Government: the St. Bonifa ce-St.

Vital Commu nity Committee: the City of Winnipeg; the Government of Man itoba and the Government of Canada. In addition it had involved the clien t's groups to be served by the complex in order to ensure that the project meets the needs and demands of these individ uals in the most effective manner possible. Thus, after consultation with the Society for Crippled Children and Adults of Manitoba, the Canadian Para­ plegic Asso ciation, the Canadian Council of the Blind and the Manitoba League of the Physically Handi­ capped, plans were developed for a hous ing complex which I am told is un ique to Canada.

It will be a fully integrated residence for the handicapped and senior citizens that is to be ultimately operated by them­ selves and which is des igned to serve their true needs. Had there not been fully developed democratic dia­ logue and open and informed exchange between pub­ lic and private orga nizations, I am sure that this hous­ ing development could never have come about. In the follow ing Sess ion, Mr. Speaker, I urge all members of the House to keep in mind what I have said today. Over the past year I have faced many challenges and I have been exposed to a number of new ideas and exper iences.

As such, I have come to develop a great deal of respect for the individuals who devote their lives to serving the public in an elected capacity. But even more importantly, I think I have 20 developed a tremendous respect for the people that elect us to office. I have listened to their recommenda­ tions, I have tried my best to help them with their problems and I have learned from their exper iences and their perspectives and from the genuine devotion of the democratic process. As we enter this new Session, Mr.

Speaker, we all, as elected representatives, must continue to actively seek the advice and guidance of our electorate and we must take great care to be fully responsible of their sugge stions and their criticisms. If we fail in this task, we not only deprive the electorate of the open and honest repre sentation and thereby forfeit our rig ht to serve the people, we also distort the democratic pro­ cess and threaten the very basis upon which our society's most fundamental institutions are based. It is with great honour that I move acceptance of the Speech from the Throne. MR.

SP EAK ER: The Hon ourable Member for Thompso n. MR. S. ASHTON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. When I spoke on the Speech from the Throne last year, my initial speech in this legi slature, I was unable to con­ gratulate you personally on your election to the posi­ tion of Speaker, so at this time I'd like to offer belated congratulat ions and also some thanks for your expe­ rienced guidance over the period of the first Sess ion in which you were Speaker.

I'd also like to congratulate the new Deputy Speaker, the Member for River East, on his election and, as well, the Deputy Chairman of Committees of the Whole House, the Member for Burrows. And I would be amiss, Mr. Speaker, if I did not thank my constituents, the people of Thompson, for their continued support and encouragement over the first year and going into the second year as MLA for that constituency. I am pleased today, Mr. Speaker, to second the Speech from the Throne, because I feel it's a signifi­ cant document that indicates clearly the approach of this Government.

It outl ines in no unc erta in terms our recognition of the extent of the economic difficulties facing not only the rest of the country, in fact the rest of the world, but the Prov ince of Manitoba and I would draw honourable members' attention to the third paragraph of the Speech from the Throne, in which it states quite clearly that the economic recession under way when my Government assumed office one year ago has deepened and persi sted, cau sing widespread hardship throughout Canada and in Manitoba. Unem­ ployment has risen to post-Depres sion record levels.

Homeowners, small bu sinesses and farmers are strug­ gling for their economic survival in the current diffi­ cult situation. But, Mr. Speaker, this document goes much further than that. In its 12 pages, this Govern­ ment outl ines an extensive program aimed at doing what it can to help Ma nitobans cope with this difficult time. And I think, Mr. Speaker, that this twofold approach has become one of the main character istics of this Government over its first year, going now to its 13th month in office.

First and foremost, this gover nment recog nizes the problems that are facing average Ma nitobans and this is important because without recognizing the prob­ lems one can't even begin to come up with the solu-

Friday, 3 December, 1982 tions. I must say, Mr. Speaker, this comes despite the fact that our performance is relatively better over the past year than it has been in recent years in compari­ son with other provinces.

As is stated in the Speech from the Throne and is stated quite correctly, the province's demonstrated commun ity spirit, which will make the best of a difficult situation, the results can be seen in Manitoba's better performance compared to other provinces in retail sales, employment, popula­ tion, real domestic production and other indicators, in add ition to continued low inflation and steady growth in manufact uring shipments. Now, in terms of what we're talk ing about here, Mr. Speaker, it's basi cally a totally different sort of approach than was followed by the previous Govern­ ment.

Even though our performance is relatively bet­ ter than virtually any other province, we are still look­ ing at ways to try and improve that performance because we recognize that there is severe hardship out there at the present time, Mr. Speaker. But what happened when the previous Government was in office was that they were not amongst the better in terms of performance, they were amongst the worst, 9th and 10th out of ten. But in looking at that, Mr.

Speaker, they did not even try to do better. even given the fact they were relatively worse off, they adopted a do-nothing economic policy which is characteristic of governments of their particular political stripe, the do-nothing economic policy that did nothing for Mani toba. And that is why they are there today, Mr. Speaker, and we are in Government. When I speak of this particu lar contrast in approach between the pres­ ent Government and the previous Government, I think one need only look at the constituency which I represent. the Const ituency of Thompson, to see how big a difference that it can make.

Now, we have been faced with diff icult times for a number of years in Thompson, Mr. Speaker. During the four years that the previous Government was in power our population dropped from above 22,000 to approxim ately 14,000 and what did they do, Mr. Speaker? Well, the first thing they didn't do was rec­ ognize the problem. We all know in Thompson of the time the former Premier came up and didn't know that the population had dropped in the last few years, and we also knew beyond that, Mr. Speaker, that they didn't know what was happening because they hadn't even taken the time to come up and talk to us about it.

They were very rarely seen in our particular area and, Mr. Speaker, of course they didn't do anything about it. How could they? They didn't know there was a problem. Now, Mr. Speaker, over the past year we have faced continuing tough economic times in Thompson. The world economic recession has virtually crippled the nickel industry and nickel sales are down. lnco is facing major cash problems and because of that, we now have a three-month production shutdown at the lnco plant. In looking at the difference in our approach as opposed to theirs. I would note our reaction to what has happened in Thompson.

The first thing we did was recognize the problem. not just for the unemployed lnco workers because indeed there are close to 2, 100 workers at lnco who wil l be shut down for a period of three months. We have also recogni zed that there is a problem for other 21 people who have not worked for lnco in the past who were also faced with either a temporary or a perma­ nent layoff, as shown, for example, in the fact that there are more than 500 people in Thompson at the present time on UIC who were not employed at lnco previously.

We have also recognized the hardship that the shutdown can have on the business community which has fared surp risingly well. Mr. Speaker, through the difficu It econom ic situation we've faced in Thompson over the past few years, but which is buffeted once again with a threat of the loss of a substantial amount of their sales, being those of the Christmas season, during the period of the lnco shutdown. So we've recognized the problems it's created for local busi­ nesses, local individuals. We also recognized that there are no mirac:e cures. If lnco can't sell its nickel, we can't sel! it either.

Market conditions have to be recognized as a factor in the shutdown. But that doesn't mean that there is nothing we can do, Mr. Speaker, far from it. We can do things to help out in other ways, and not only can we. we have. I must say, Mr. Speaker, that this is exactly what the people of Thompson have been looking for. I have spoken to many people in going door-to-door through the constituency over the past few months and they said basi cally, that they recogn ize that times are tough everywhere.

There are limits to what a Government can do but there are still some valuable things they can do, and the result of this feedback, Mr. Speaker, the result of action on the part of myself, the Provincial Govern­ ment and various other Government levels has been an unprecedented Government and community effort to help Thompson through these difficult times. I' m referring, Mr. Speaker, to the $1.7 million Thompson Improvement Program Employment Project which has been in operation now for the past two weeks, which will employ close to 300 workers over the period during which it will run. on 70 projects.

It is being funded, Mr. Speaker, by both the Federal Government through their contributions from UIC funds, by the Provincial Government through its fund­ ing for wages through the Mining Reserve Fund and also in terms of capital funding and it will involve projects with the city, the school board, the hospi tal and many community serv ice club projects. One of the key elements of the success of this pro­ gram thus far, Mr. Speaker, has been the incredible amount of cooperation by people at all levels.

In par­ ticular, I would lik e to thank the involvement of the parties which have given the capital funding so that we could create these jobs in Thompson. In parti cular, credit should go to the Min ister of Education for giv­ ing top priority to the request of the Thompson School Board during these difficult times for capital renova­ tions, and also to the local school board for placing a very excellent presentation through the Public School Finance Board which has been officially announced as approved as of today, I understand, Mr. Speaker. This program, Mr.

Speaker. is not the only program that this government has enacted. The Northern Employment Program. which covers all the northern urban commun ities, will be placing over $100,000 in wages through temporary job creation in Thompson during this difficult time. That will again help people

3 December, 1982 who did not work at lnco before, who have not been employed for quite some time, perhaps they are losing their UIC, and that is very important as well. To summarize the significance of this particular program as it relates to the Throne Speech - we are talking today in the general overall discussion of pol­ icy which I anticipate for members of this House - I think I'd like to point out these things. First and fore­ most, it is not a make-work project, Mr. Speaker. Every one of those projects are needed community projects.

Many of them have been talked about, discussed for many years, but the funding just wasn't there. The manpower just wasn't there. Now it is, Mr. Speaker, and now we'll be doing a lot of valuable community projects. It also represents a new approach, Mr. Speaker, an approach which was pioneered to a certain extent by the people in Lynn Lake and Leaf Rapids, in the riding of the Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs, in terms of the involvement of the Federal Government and the Provincial Government in the funding of this particular job creation program. I must say, Mr. Speaker.

I personally feel it's rather significant as an indication of what you can do when times are tough, what you can do other than sit back and say, there's nothing we can do, because it's really having a substantial effect on the Thompson com­ munity. Over and above that, Mr. Speaker, I think the main thing that is demonstrated is the degree of coop­ erative spirit that has been developed in these tough times between the Federal and Provincial Govern­ ments and the various local government levels in Thompson including the city, the school board, the hospital board and the many service clubs in Thomp­ son.

This may surprise many people I know, Mr. Speaker, because they're often used to thinking of Thompson during these tough times as being in a very depressed situation both psychologic ally as well as economically, but that is not the case, Mr. Speaker. While people have a realistic assessment of how tough the times are. there's a surprising lack of a negative atmosphere in Thompson and I feel it's a testament to a number of things.

First of all, the com­ munity spirit of Thompson in that they are making the best of a bad situation, putting their time and resour­ ces to work, and I know the Premier and the Minister of Northern Affairs who accompanied me on a tour of some of the work sites were struck by this community spirit, the positive attitude of the workers there. I know that some of the workers are so anxious, Mr. Speaker, to work on these particular projects that they couldn't wait for the Premier to finish his particular contribu­ tion to the project of digging a number of the ditches there so they could get back to work.

In fact, this was dutifully recorded in the Free Press on the following day. But I think this should come as no surprise, Mr. Speaker, because people of Thompson are very resil­ ient and I'm very pleased, in fact, to say that, despite the fact that we had this three-month shutdown, virtu­ ally nobody has left our community; despite the fact that we've had problems in the past with loss of popu­ lation, our population is steady. And that is basically because people have made a commitment to Thomp­ son; it's their home; they're willing to weather the storm. I think also. Mr.

Speaker, in looking at this expe- 22 rience in Thompson it shows how effective the approach of the Provincial Government can be and this approach, Mr. Speaker, I think has been demon­ strated, not just in the Throne Speech today but in the record of the past year. It's an approach which tries to foster both cooperation and consultation and involv­ ing as many people as possible in trying to tackle our various economic and social problems and it's an approach which is emphasized in the Throne Speech.

I can note various references to it on the fifth para­ graph: "The province is demonstrating a community spirit and will make the best of a difficult situation." There are further references in the Throne Speech to the fact that my Government has responded to the current economic crisis in the tradition of shared pur­ pose and cooperative action which is characteristic of Manitobans. In the next paragraph it talks of the shared recognition of the need to work together to minimize the impact of the recession on Manitobans. This should come as no surprise, Mr.

Speaker, to those who are familiar with the background of the New Democratic Party because that emphasis on cooperation and consultation has been part of the philosophy of the NOP since its inception in the early '60s. And I would go even further than that, Mr. Speaker, and say it should come as no surprise to those that saw what came out of perhaps the toughest economic situation we were faced with in this country, as indeed in the world, and that being during the Great Depression when there was a great development, new political ideas and great new emphasis on coopera­ tion, and I would note in this regard, Mr.

Speaker, that some 50 years ago this led to the founding of the CCF, the predecessor of the NOP, which in a time that was even tougher than the times we face today when the Government and societal mechanisms were not there to handle depression recessions; were not there with things such as unemployment insurance, with pen­ sic)ns for the elderly. But in these difficult times they rejected the idea that there was nothing that could be done; they rejected the do-nothing economic approach of the old-line parties and they developed a new vision of a cooperative society. And I would note, Mr.

Speaker, for those who like to put forth that they are experts on history, as does the Leader of the Opposition, that if he looks at the paral­ lels between now and 50 years ago and the trends that are taking place in the world today, I would argue with him that the time has come again for this particular approach. It has come in France; it has come in Greece; it has come again in Sweden; it has recently come again in Spain.

The people of the world are rejecting the do-nothing, right-wing economics of the old line parties and they are turning again to the social democratic parties, the democratic socialist move­ ment in the various countries throughout the world. I would say, Mr. Speaker, that the time has come again for this approach here in Manitoba. We have begun it in the first year; it has worked very well in areas such as Thompson in depressed economic situations and it can continue to work if we have the commitment, Mr.

Speaker, not just to particular programs or projects, but to an idea that we can work together, that we can as a community solve our problems because that I think is the key. And as I've said, Mr. Speaker, I feel the time has come for this particular approach; the time

Friday, 3 December, 1982 has come to reject the defeatist, do-nothing economic policies that say you can do nothing to help people during tough economic times, because these particu­ lar economic policies have, in fact, lead to the present world recession and made it worse, Mr. Speaker, made it worse. I would like at this time to really plead with the Opposition to ask for their co-operation, to ask for their involvement, to ask them to work with us during these tough economic times.

I would ask, now that they will be looking for a new leader and hopefully a new approach. one which will do better for them with the citizens of Manitoba than they did last year during the election, that they will reject the overly partisan approach which says that, "we're the Opposition, we criticize, we don't put forward our own programs until the next election," because that is indeed what they've been saying over the last few weeks, Mr. Speaker. "D on't look to us for new ideas, we're just going to criticize." I must say that I'm very disappointed in that attitude.

If they really have a program of ideas, let's hear them. Let's not play politics with the very real economic and human su ffering that we are faced with in this province at the present time. Let's work together, if you've got some ideas let's hear them. And as I've said, Mr. Speaker, I feel that we need to draw on some of the historic precedents that were there in tough economic times, in terms of co­ operation, in terms of working together.

But in addi­ tion to that we need those new ideas; we need the new approaches; we need a Government which is not only committed to being active but has a program of activ­ ity that will tackle the problems of the present reces­ sion, and that is why I make that plea to the Opposi­ tion, Mr. Speaker, because if they have any new ideas, let's hear them.

I sus pect, after seeing the reports in the press of their recent convention, that they are falling back to the approach they followed when they lost the elec­ tion in 1969 that, "oh my goodness, the electorate must have made a mistake, they must have misunder­ stood us." Well, Mr. Speaker, they did not make a mistake; they did not misu nderstand the previous government; they knew exactly after four years what to expect from them - nothing. That's why they threw them out and elected an active Government.

In looking toward the new ideas. the new approach that we need, I think we need look no further than the present document, the Speech from the Throne, to see that we have a program here of ideas and of par­ ticul ar initiatives. I would note on the second page of the Throne Speech the mention of the need to deliver and develop programs that address the crisis of unemployment. I would mention the need to continue to help Manito­ bans and maintain the found ations of the provincial economy for national recovery when it comes.

I would mention and highlight the need to provide activist, compassionate and innovative government in new and trying circu mstances. I would note, Mr. Speaker, the particular measures outlined in the Throne Speech aimed at doing exactly that. It would be almost $4 million for accelerated provincial capital works; the additional $1 million for job intensive capi­ tal works in the City of Winnipeg; special employme nt funds transferred to northern community projects; the 23 extension of a new affordable home program to match extended federal grants for new homebuyers.

And, in particular, of interest to my constituency, Mr. Speaker, the advancing this winter of $900,000 of construction in Thompson to help the community which is perhaps faced with the most difficult economic times here in Manitoba at the present time. But I would say, Mr. Speaker, that really what we're talking about in the debate today on the Speech from the Throne is not merely what we can see in the next Session, not merely that, Mr. Speaker, but more spe­ cifically the long-term situation that we are faced with.

We're talking about the future of this province and how we can take it from a tough economic time and build it into the province of prosperity, of social equal­ ity that we all desire so much. I must say, Mr. Speaker, that it has been a,) area of consternation for me quite substant ially over these past few months with the birth of my daughter Nikki, our first child, with my wife and I.

I have come to think more and more of the need for myself, as MLA for the Constit uency of Thompson, and also as a representa­ tive in this particular Assembly looking at the situation of the overall promise, the need to have a future for her and others of her generation, such as the Member for Springfield's recent addition and another member of our Caucus who will soon be having an addition to his family. I must say, Mr.

Speaker, that while I realize that in this particular Chamber we often engage in some pretty heated debate I recognize, given the differen­ ces in background, philosophy and approach that are shared by members opposite and by members on this side that we all have one thing in common. and that is to try and make Manitoba the best province we can. In that particular vein, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to end my contribu tion to the Throne Speech Debate by urging all Members of this Assembly to work together for that future because I really feel that without the cooperation of all people here, or without at least the agreement sometimes to disagree, which is so basic to a democratic society, the agreement at times to have constructive criticism when the members oppo­ site feel that things are not going the way they want, the way they feel it should go, without some kind of agreement in that sense, a common goal that we all 57 share, I don't feel that future can be as bright as it can be with an Assembly that works together.

So ending my debate from the Speech from the Throne. today, Mr. Speaker, I would say that I feel this docu ment is an excellent sum mary of the approach of this Government. It ou tlines a program of policies designed to tackle the difficult situ ation we're faced with and I have no hesitation. not only seconding the Speech from the Throne but giving it my 100 percent support. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Fort Garry, that the debate be adjourned, but I hope before it's resumed the Government will screw up its courage and file the quarterly report.

Friday, 3 December, 1982 MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEA KER: The Honou rable Member for Springfield. MR. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Thompson that the House do now adjourn. MOTION presented and carried and the House adjourned and stands adjourned until Monday after­ noon at 2 p.m. 24