Manitoba Committee Hansard — Legislative Affairs Committee, Sitting 3 (30th Legislature, 1st Session)

30-1-la3

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

I.JlM 1\MENlHNl'S mlMITTEE 8:00p.m., Mooday, May 27, 1974 OIAI!fmN: Mr. D. J. Walcling. 71 MR. OiAIRMAN : Order please. A quorum being present, the mee ting will cane to aider. Mr. Cltemiack. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to speak on a point of order . MR. OIAII*\N: Would you speak into the miCl:OP'lone. MR. CliE:RITJ\CK: Yes, Mr. <lhainnan. '!he point of order I'd like to raise is literally a point of the order dealing in these bills before us.

I've looked at the list of bills, I've also checked the nanes of the ITlellbers of ccmni.t tees and I find that there are three Ministers who have bills to present and who are not ITlellbers of the carmi.ttee. I'm wondering if the ccmnittee would be willing to take those bills out of order and ahead frankly to release me, for exatple, fran having to sit through the meeting until we cane to the very last bill which happens to be the one that I'm involved in. MR. MILLER: '!he point of order is out of order . MR. OiERmll:K: I'm WCI'Idering if it would be acceptable to the ocmnittee that we do that.

I notice that Burtniak, Schreyer and I are not mertilers of the ccmni.t tee but we each have a bill to present. MR. OIAII*\N: Mr. Grahan. MR. GRAIDIM: Mr. Chainnan, I also have a bill that I have particular interest in too and it falls fairly far down the line. Can I get sane special privileges too . MR. �= Are you a Itle!lber of the carmi.ttee? MR. GRAH1IM: Yes. MR. rnERNil!CK: Cb, well, that's my point. But, Mr. Chai.nnan, if there's not oc:nsensus, I ' ll have to 1i ve with it. MR.

JOR:IDlSCN: ••• we have been guilty fran time to time of showing extrere oonsideraticm and cm this occ asion I have no dljections either to a<XXJmooda t ing the Minister. - (Interjection) - And saretimes much to our regret . MR. OIAIIM\N : WOUld you care to specify which those bills are, Mr. Chemiack. MR. CHE:BNIJICK: My bill is No. 62, I don't know whether Schreyer and Burtniak are here but that's the point I 'm making. MR. OIAII*\N: Mr. Spivak. MR.

SPIVAK: One of the prdllE!IlS we have is that all of these bills are bills in which anendments are to be forthcaning. '!he reason they weren't passed cm the last occas ion was that there were amendnents to be forthcaning. We haven't mceived those anendments and it makes it very difficult for us, we should have had those ••• MR. OJEm!ACK: No. 62 has an alllei1Cment? MR. SPIVAK: '!hat's our prdllen at this point. '!he reason that all these bills were held back was because there were to be anerdrents but we haven1t received any . MR. ClJAIIMAN: Mr. Jo J:gel'ISdn. MR.

JOICENSCN: May I ask the Minister if he has an anendoont to Bill 62. MR. ClJEBNIACK: No. MR. JOICENSCN: If he has no anendment to Bill 62, why don't we deal with that right EIIIB!f and then relieve the Minister. MR. OJE:m!l\CK: Wouldn't that be nice? MR. JO�: Well I'd be perfectly hCIR':f to do that. MR. OIAIIH\N: Bill 62 SE!EIIS to be a one-page bill. (Sectioos 1 and 2 were read and passed.)

Section 3. • • MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Chai.nnan, I wonder if the Minister would explain what Secticm 3 is all about. MR. �= I sent my copy of the bill to Mr. Craik who didn •t retum it. Yes, Mr. Chainnan,

Section 3, I can give it to you in a long technical respoose or I can give it to you the way I understand it and then read the respoose. The w;q under the existing Financial Administration Act, the w;q it has been all along, when IOOneys are advanced by goverments to an agency, the interest rate charged is the interest rates which is payable at the time of the advance. Nten there is a change in the nature of the advance then the interest rate has to be adjusted under the present Act. New literally what has happened is this throtXJbout all the years. '!he govemnent' s Deparbnent of Finance would advance to s;q the

72 May 27, 1974 (MR. � cont'd) ••••• Manitcba Hydro. as required 5 million, 3 million, what ever is :required,tmtil there is a sun acCI.I!Ulated which wool.d be sufficient to justify a public issue of let's SEI!:f 40 or 50 million, and then that issue is put cut. NcM the practise has been that when the government woo ld advance that ncney short tenn to Manitcba Hydro or aey of its agencies, it would charge interest on the short texm at the rate, let's SEI!:f PEI!:fable to the bank .

And then when the mneys would be-when the advance would be rolled over and there would be a borradng SEI!:f on the public market at whatever the rate woold be - let's SEI!:f � or 9 or whatever - then the interest rate woold change to the aoo tmt PEI!:fable on that particular loan and that's in accord with the present Act. NcM what has been negotiated with all the agencies by my department is that the agency will indicate as it needs ncney the length of time which it will-it expects it will take for the ncneys to be repaid.

And then the department will indicate the interest rate that would be PEI!:fable at the time of the borraring on the markets . And . then that aoo tmt would be the anc:nmt chargeable to the agency for that particular loan withcut being related to the actual costs of the actual oollars. '!his has been an inconveni ent WE1!:f, as I understand it, not so much for the Departnelt of Finance rut really for the Crown agencies when they don't krY:M in advance what sane of their borraring is going to cost them .

And therefore they have sane difficulty in setting up their bcx:ks that WE1!:f. '!he system that is liOW' being proposed is one that !liE!'IiJers may be f�liar with with, I think CPP is an exatple where they advance the mney and they detemtine the rates sane months later and infonn us what the rate will be based on the market. I understand that this is the system that has been used by the Federal Governnent for sane time and is m:XIelled on that. And liOW' I notice, Mr. Chainnan, my Assistant �ty Minister, Mr.

Cllrti. s, is here and I'd like to kncM whether I described it - (Interjection) -Well thanks for the CCIII'IB'Idation - rut that's correctly it. Maybe I should sit beside Mr. CUrtis and invite him to participate in answering questions, Mr. Chainnan. -(Interjection) -Yes, if you don't mind, Mr. Chainnan, I'll feel nore secure ••• - (Interjection- He krY:Ms more than I'll ever learn abcut this. MR. OIAI�:

Section 3-pass. MR. SPIVAK: No, Mr. Olainnan, is there nothing on the explanation list. Well, Mr.

Chainnan, I want to question the interpretaticn that the Minister's given. - (Interjection) - Yes, I heard it but I wonder , I also read the proposal and I read the clause that it's anending and I'd like to understand how that relates to the explanation that was given. '!he clause that is being renoved and deleted and substituted SEI!:fS : ''loll ere a debt is self-sustaining debt, aey charges mentioned in subsection (1) relative to the debt shall be recovered fi:all the goverrrnent agency on whose behalf the debt is created, and shall be credited to the Coosolidated Fund." The substitution liOW' proposes: "Where a debt is self-sustaining debt, the Lieutenant Govemor in Co\mcil may direct that aey charges mentioned in subsection (1) relative to that debt shall be recovered f:ran the government agency" - it doesn't have to, it may direct.

Now I interpret that

section to mean or be capable of being interpreted in a WE1!:f dif ferent or in add iticn to the explanation given by the Minister. Because I would interpret that pao;rer if it is passed in this bill to give theCabinet essentially the right to de tennin e. whether aey charges shall be recovered fi:all a government agency should or should not be recovered in connection with aey kind of advance that may have been given. Where as right now my understanding would be that there'd be an ci>ligation for the agency to pay back that advance.

And I think the Honourable Menber for Riel todEI!:f in the Depart:Irent of Finance's Estimates indicated when he talked about the write-off on CFI whether there was an intent in this Act to deal with this matter in this way and it would awear that it would be possible to interpret the debt owing for moneys advanced by the government to the Manitcba Developnent COrporation, for mneys further advanced to CFI, could in fact be written off by the Cabinet by an Order-in-council under this

section and this really has nothing to do with the explanation given by the Minister. And I wander if there is not, unless my under standing of the sectioo is OCl'llpletely wrong, unless the pc:Mer that I 'm talking abcut isn't contained in those words. But as I understand it this would give the pcMer for the goverrunent who before woold have had the ci>ligation to recover fi:all the government agency the debt, to alter as they see fit and without aey restriction en it by Order-in-Council. MR. OIAI�: Mr. Cherniack.

'lay 27, 1974 73 HR. CHF.RNIACK: Hr. Chairman, I nCM understand what Hr. Craik was talking about this afternoon. It is not the intention to do as �u-. Spivak describes and if there is any doubt I would ask Irr. Tallin or �rr. Balkaran to clarify because that is not the intent. The intent is what I said and it is only the rate of interest to be related to the nature of the loan and that's the only point and if the 'oJOrding lends itself to the

interpretation I1r. Spivak has given then that's not what we want and I would be quite prepared to change it. t·m. CIIAIRr-1A"1: Hr. Spivak. HR. SPIVZ\T<: Again I think .,.,hen we talk about debt you' re talking interest rate, that's one part of the debt and the capital payment, which is another, when you talk debt. HR. CHERNIACK: so there's no question in my mind that if there is to be a forgiveness it has to be done by .,.,ay of a proper let's say the Estimates, to shCM that it cares out of either curr ent or deadweight debt whatever it is.

The intent that I describe is as I described it and if there's any question about tl1e wording I don't want to quibble about wording, I want it to be clear so that I don't Jcno..l if Hr. Balkaran - who drew this, Ray. Well Hr. Tallin is not - he's here but he hasn't been listening. >.m. CHAIRMAN: Hr. Tallin would you cane up to the microphone? �m. CHERNIACK: l'1ay I just put it to Hr. '.rallin and see if I'm and Hr. Spivak will of course correct Ire if I'm not explaining the question. Hr. '.rallin I understood that the

section is it 3, I<m. CHAIR'>1AN: Yes 56 sub (3) �·m.

CJIERNIACK: Is designed to make it possible for the governirent to establish a rate of interest which is the, let us say the market rates rather than the actual rate payable and the exarrp le I gave was that if we borrCM roc>ney from the bank at let's say priire, we are nCM required to charge priire even tllough we knCM t.l}at this is let's say a forty or a twenty five year loan to Hydro which will be replaced by a bond issue in the foll<:Ming year, when we knCM that the interest rate is roc>re likely to be let us say, 8 percent than priire at the bank and that is our intent, that when Hydro borr<:MS temporarily from us to be rolled over into a long te>xm long, that we would fix the rate at the tiire of borr<:Ming so it will be a rate which is consistent with long tenn borr<:Ming.

NcM that's what I explained is our intent and r1Tr. Spivak has read into the arre ndirent, the replace

section the possibility that the govemrent loJOuld waive interest entirely or even capital and I said that is not our intent. r..m.. Tl \LLIN: Nhat were the charges thou:Jh? HR. CIIERNil\CK: Well but that' s t.l}e explanation there' s charges on self sustaining debt but nevertheless I do 1-mnt it to be clearly what I said we want, not what any other

interpretation could be. '·m. TALL IN: l'7ell it would allo.'l" the Lieutenant-r,overnor-in-Council to refrain from directing that the charges be charged back and in that case nothing would be charged back but this would allCM them to decide what charges of those that are chargeable should be charged baCk. •m. CHERJ.'Ul\CK: !�ell we do not intend to ask that the Lieutenant-r_,overnor in-Council have the right to cancel a debt. charges. •·m. TALL IN: ·i'b, it's not cancelling the debt, it's just the cost, the '-!R. CllF.R!IJil\CK: Refrain from paying tl1e chiWJes. ''!P.. Tl\LLIN: ':'hat's right. '�.

OIER:HN::K: \-Jell that Ireans like sh(l!;rim a nil interest. 'IR. "'Z\LI,r:J: Pave vou got t'1e financial ..• . 'ffi. SPIVJ\K: !Jell can J ask one tl1inq Ray, \•hen you look at 56 (1) it talks al:out t:1c retireliPJlt of a dP..bt and the retire..r:IPJlt of tile debt is not just t.c'1e interest ch ;rrq es, it's the actual nr ooo rti on of the debt t.'lat' s retired each year. :m. CI!F?c·lL'\CI<:: I assurre that tl-lls is a, is it an exact copy of t.'1e federal leaislation. 'IR. 'l','\LLI"l: I 'm afraid I couldn't tell you that •.. the federal legislation. 'r::t.

SPIV::'\X: '"lell, my point is tl1at even witl1out, vJhen it says debt is a scl f sustaining debt, any charges mentioned relative to that, they may direct any charqe mentioned on such a relative debt from the qovernrrent agency, it qives them a discretion which I don't think they've asked for and which you really don't want. You spelled out more or less the conditions and it I'I"OUld seem to Ire that t.'1e

section should he altered to soell out those conditions so t.'1at it will be very clear.

74 11a_y 27 1 197 4 r.m. CHERNI2\CK: Could \'le have Mr. Curtis give an explanation of this. It's a technical matter and I do need his help. �.ffi. CHAIRr-IAN: l'lr. Curtis. 1·1R. CURTIS: 'lr.

Spivak we have had sare requests from particularly the smaller agencies, \\later Supply Board for exarvle, Aqri Credit for an exarrple where we are advancing the rroney over a period of a year at varying rates of interest. 'l'hev are having to recover those interest costs fran their clients - in rrost cases small municipalities or various custarers. l·lhen \'le go to put them into long term debt if the interest rate has gone up, they are in effect losing, they are obliged at this point in t.irre to pay us back t.IJ.e entire cost of the debt to them, so it's not good business practice to not be able to confirm a rate to them at the t.irre that we' re making the loan to them.

HR. SPIVAT\: Yes but I'm not quarrellirtq with that. 1·1R. CHER!UACK: All \'le' re asking for is the right to establish the rates and we are not asking for the right to cancel debts, so :i: 'm wonderinq if \'le could get fran '1r. Tallin sare assistance on this. '.ffi. SPIVAK: Really, what you' re reall v talking about is that the rate that you want should· not be lower than a certain level, '·1R. TALL I N : Realistically that' s what \'le' re doing. '.ffi. SPIVAK: And the problem is that this is, an ability for anything you want to do and I think you kna-r, there's a way in whic.IJ. to frarre this.

I think tl'Jat the charges �ve' re talking about are interest charges, that would be one amend ment to be proposed, "where a debt is a self sustaining debt, the Lieutenant-Governor in-council may direct that any interest charges" that would take care of part of this. l\1R. CHERNIACK: Yes for the interest charges. \·Jell t.'len, there's no problem about the capital because \'le're not asking for that. HR.

SPIVAK : But then they specify interest there and then it would be a cruestion of really soelling out in legal language what you've just said, otherwise you have that ability and I don't think that that JXJWer you're asking for n01,r I don't think it should be qiven to you. t1R. CHERNIACK: I can tell you one of the problems \'le've had with big debt.

Charlie Curtis gave you the exarrple of the small ones but the big one \ve had was that under the agreerrent bcbNeen HIX: and CFI t.l'Jere \,ras an interest rate stioulated of sare 6-6� percent and at the t.irre \•le \oJere lending it, it had gone UP to 8-8':r and "11:X: was therefore in a position where t.l-}ey had to pay under t'lis Act the interest rate which was the cost of the borrOIV'ing, �V'hereas thev ,.,ere bourrl to lend money at 6� and had a built in deficit right there that we couldn't get around except looking for cheaper money for them, which was difficult to find of course. �'IR.

SPIVJ\K: But any rrortgcqe cx:npany does that in any case and any rrortqage canpany I·Thich .vill give a crnmitment for a loan to be paid out over a neriod of a year or a year and a half or b...a years, qives a firm interest rate and the factors can chanqe but t.'le only difference is that they have to make a profit from other aperations to be able to take care of •.• �1R. C!illR!>ITACK: \·lhen that make that kind of crnmitrrent they also are sure that their borr01ving is available at a rate as \'Jell. 1·1R. SPIVAK: Not necessarily. '·1R.

CIJERNIACK: But that's why they have a one year or a bV'O year or a five year certificate that they over all try to balance it that way but the example I've given you is one where the arrount was so great that no one could really balance ahead on that. HOI-�ever, that is the kind of problem that if Mr. Tallin can help us with that, that's you knOIV there's no difference of opinion as to the intent. 1·1R. CIL'\IR\.fl\..'\1: Mr. Tallin' s working on a re-wording of t.'lat section, if we c.an give him just a minute or bV'O to finish it off. '·1R. CI!AIR"ll\.1\1: Could \'le go to Bill .6 while \'le1re waiting?

I believe there was to be one small arnendirent t"fr. Pawley. Do you have one small arrerrlrrent to Bill 6? DILL NO. 6 HR. PAHLEY: 11r. Chairman in ti1el:lousetoday I gave notice of intended ammdrre.!'lt to Bill 6 whic.h pertains to t.'le salary each Judge of the Surrogate Court is to receive and involves an increase from $2,500 to $3,500. There has not been a salary adjustrrent for quite a number of years. The '12mber for Birtle Russell had mentioned this in second reacling of the bill and also there had been representations made to myself in connection with tlris arrendment.

I suppose it's not in order for me to rrove it myself is it r'1r. Chairman?

J'vE.y 27, 1974 HR. CHAIR!�lAN: 'l'hat' s

section 4 is it? MR. PAtVLEY: I should just add that also to the printed sheet r.rr. Tallin has added a further clause that

section 6 of the Bill 6 be amended by adding thereto after the word "Act" the words arrl figure "except

section 4 " and (

b) by adding thereto at the end thereof"the words and figures in

section 4 cares into force on July 1, 1974" so that there would be a date on which the salary adjust:rrent would care into for ce and Mr. Tallin has amended it with those words. HR. CI!AIRMi'\N: Is that the sarre amendrrent? HR. Pl\.WLEY: Yes 'ffi. CHAIRT'1AN: It could then be made at the same time. �.ffi.. PAlm: No that's right, that's the addition to the printed sheet. 'tR. CILl\IRf'lAN: Sections 1, 2 arrl 3 were read and passed. l\1R. OOYCE: ttr. Chairman, I would JOC>Ve that Bill No. 6 be amended by re-numbering sections 4 and 5 thereof as sections 5 and 6 and by adding thereto .i.rrnediately after

section 3 thereof the follCMing section:

Section B repealed and substitute for

Section B of the Act is repealed anrl the follCMing

section is substituted thcrefor: "Salary to .Tudqes B The Minister of Finance shall pay each ,Tudgc annually the sum of $3,500". �'!R. CI!AIRT'1AN: Is there any debate on the arnendiTent?

Section 4 as anEnded passed.

Section 5 was read and passed.

Section 6 MR. OOYCE: ttr. Chairman, I would JOC>Ve that

Section 6 of Bill 6 be ar!'{>_nded by (

a) by addinq after the \•rord "act" the 1.,rords and figures "except

section 4" and (

b) by addinq thereto at the end thereof the words and figures "and

section 4 cares into force on July 1, 1974". The effect of this arrendment is to set a date certain for proclamation. 75 �m.. CI!i\IRT'4AN: Is there any discussion? 1\Jrendment passed.

Section 6 oassed. Prearlble passed. Title passed. Bill be reported. BILL L'IO.l3 '1R. CIIAIR"'!Ai'-I: Llhile \ve' re waT£fiig--tor Dill 62, could \·.re qo to Bill l3 The Boxing anrl "7restlinq C'.ornnission Act.

Section 1 '•!il.s read and passed.

Section 2. · tr. Do:rce ''In. '30YCI:: I rove that the )'rOFOSed new

section 2 of the l\ct as set out in

section 1 o': Bill l3 be struck out and the F.ollCMing

section be substituted

Definitions: 2 In this Act (a) "minister'' rreans the l'1'13llber of the Executive C'.otL'1cil charqed by the Lieutenant-C"',avernor-in-Council l·lith the administration of this Act;"and (b) "wrestling exhibition" includes a wrestling contest. rm.. CI!AIPJ'1AN: The amendrrent as read, is there any discussion? rtr. Patrick. HR. Pl\.TRICK: ctr. Chairman, I wonder if the !'linister 1.,rould explain if he qave any consideration to have a fur ther appeal, say an appeal to a Judge. •m.. OOYCE: That's under

section 12. �1R. CIIAIRMAN: This is

Section 1 2 under

definitions. 1·tr. Graham l'vlR. C:PJIJWJI: Just as a matter of interest and maybe the rtinister can indicate if, is thP..re really a difference hetweF'Jl a '·7restlinq F.xhibition and a lvrestling Contest? "!R. 'IDUPIN: Hell Mr. Chairman, having wrestled for ten years myself sorretirres it's debatable and that's 1\lhV we want to put both in the Act. \'IR. CHA.IR'Wl: Any further discussion?

Section 2 \.,ra..s read and passed.

Section 3 10 (1) to (6) were read and passed. 10 (7) '1R. InYCE: '1r. Chairman, I would JOC>Ve the p!D!JOsed new

section 10 of the 1\ct as set forth in

section 3 of Bill 13 be amerrled by adding thereto the follCMinq suhsection. "Aj::peal 10 (7) lfuere under this

section the corrrni ssion refuses to qrant a pennit to a person that person may appeal the decision of the coomission to the minister 1...tlose decision thereon is final." MR. CI1AIRT'11\."l: 'tr. Patrick. �m. Pl\.1'RICK: 'tr.

Chairman, tl1at's the one I raised earlier I wonder if t�e c'tinister would explain if he's satisfied that this is as far as it should go because if the Coomission who were a]:pC>inted by the minister himself and then a�al from the C'..oornission to the minister may be not sufficient, it maybe should be further , you knCM I iust 1\lant to hear the minister's view on this. 1\'!R. 'IDUPIN: �1r. <;hairman I personally am satisfied 1·1ith this provision �' it's up to the members of the canmittee to indicate if they are.

It's a further provision on 1mat '\\'8 have in the existinq Act and as you kno.\1 1"vhen we did have this problem in regard to boxing, tl1at provision was not in t�e Act and this is one of the

76 '·lay 27, 1974 (HR. 'IDUPIN ront'd) . • • • • reasons why tore included the minister here and it was on the suggestion of the advisor rounsel that this is included as it is nav instead of having the rourt to have an appeal to the .!-1inister. MR. CHAIRMA.�: }·tr. Spivak. r-m. SPIVAK: 1-Jell I think that there would be no disagreerrent about the right of an appeal, there should be.

If the minister doesn't feel that strongly with respect to where it should go, as a choice between the minister and a ,Judge of the County Court as an example, or the Court of Queen's Bench and I would suggest the County Court, I would hold for the Judge of the County Court simply becauSe it takes it out of the political arena as an exhibition and it puts it before the Court but I would think that so long as the Comm ission exercises the right that it has and has handled the decision it has to make in a proper manner, it's not likel�r that t-he Court would be in a position nor would it interfere, the Corrmission having the right to exercise it but if the Comm ission based its determination on inm=ect facts, if the infonnation was supplied or was made available was not accurate, then the courts rould have a riqht to • • . on the basis that thev have: not handled thenselves properly and I thin]( it would be better to have the Court as the group who would decide the a:rpeal, rather than the minister unless you feel that strongly.

MR. CHl\IRMA.�: .1-tr. Bilton. Speak into the mi=phone please. r-m. BIL'IDN: �tr. Chairman I fore:JO to my honourable colleague Nr. Sherman. �m. CHAIRMA.."l: rtr. Sherman. HR. S!IERMA."l: Nell rtr. Chairman I just think that it's safe - the safest rourse would be to rerrove it as far as possible fran any possible political influence. I think that tore have to rerognize the fact that the Comm ission is appointed by the H.inister and there are ht.nnan flaws and human frailties that creep into all these situations.

There could be sarebody on the Comm ission who didn't like a particular praroter and that praroter would then have extrerre difficulty in obtaining a license or in winning an aP!Jea.l which went to the minister whose resolution lay vested in the pavers of the minister and there's one other aspect and that is the possibility, rerrote as it may be, of you knav political pressure being applied and I just cite it as a rerro te possibility but it's still there.

If there is a pronoter who has built an empire of sare kind and exercises a great deal of financial :pa-rer, there might be people in a certain situation "VJho expect him to contribute to political canpaiqns. These are things that can ha�. I think that just to be on the safe side, it's much better to take the avenue of appeal out of the political arena altogether and place it in the hands of the courts where there is no political influence and no political interference, so I "V.ould like to see that

section amended to call as the� for Assiniboia originally called in the House for the avenue of appeal to lie directed to the Courts. "ffi. CHAIRMAN: '1r. Toupin. r-m. 'IDUPIN: lvell I•tr. Chairman, again I'm not on the Comm ittee I can only sugaest what can be accepted or rejected by the Ccmnittee. It is I think you knav a sound �tion to have an appeal to the minister that can be brou:rht to Cabinet and like the appointment of a Judge, .of a Provincial Judge who' s made on the reoomren dation of a minister and is appointed by Cabinet, I don't believe that you can get everything out of the political arena.

I don't think that any minister that's appointed by the Executive Council would want to have any POlitical interference into a recxmrendation made by a Camtission and the reversal of such. MR. CHAIRMAN: .1-tr. Spivak. MR. SPIVAK: I-tr. 'Ibupin sort of weakens the argUllEJlt for the minister by his avn remarks because surely this is not intended to be sarething that would be brought to Cabinet if the appeal goes to the minister. I think tore have to reroqnize tt..u thinqs : The Canmission would make the decision on the fact and t•ll:mld exercise its discretionary right.

The only riqht of appeal would be not for a ne\'1 decision but whether the individual who was before the Corrrnission was not qiven a proper hearing or his rights in sare Hay or other were jeopardized because information was supplied that was not available to him on which decisions were made and t.l-J.e hearing itself was proper.

That's my understanding of what the appeal t,rould be all about. 'What the '1inister is really saying is that this is really a fresh ne\'1 revie\'1 of the sarre set of circum.stances that the Corrrnission has already decided and I think that the appeal should be the Court, to the Court and the Court Nould be the one that would make a decision as to vmether the individual if all the infonnation •>�as available upon which the facts t·rere to be determined, and the facts were pre sented vrere accurate and I don't think it's up to t.1-!e Jud'Te to exercise the discretion

Hay 27, 1974 77 (MR. SPIVAK cont'd) .•.• • that the Ccmnission has to exercise. I think that's what the Corrmission' s there for and I don't think it should go to the Minister. and I certainly don't think it srould go to the Cabinet. �m. CHAI�: 'tr. Boyce. r.m.. OOYCE: I'm just questioning the Leader of the Opposition saying in the first instance it should go to the Judge of the Queen's Bench you know it should go to County Court. \·.Jell you know , I'm not arguing whether it should or it shouldn't but nevertheless I just was questioning that. MR.

SPIVAK: My suggestion would be the County Court and the Attorney C'..eneral has already referred to me about time limits and I think that could be written right into it, that the matter should be heard within a week. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Boyce MR. OOYCE: l'lell just another question and here is a question that you know hasn't been an�ed to my satisfaction in several jurisdictions. '!his as I understand it, if it goes through the County Court, then what would be ascertained is if the applicant had catplied with the law �m. SPIVAK: and the discretion MR.

OOYCE: It's not a discretionary ••• it's whether the applicant has �lied with the law. MR.

SPIVAK: I would ass1..lllE that the Boxing Ccmnission, the Boxing and Wrestling Oammission has the discretion to allow a license or not or to allow an exhibition or not and if they decided against it, that's their decision and the appeal will be against the decision on the basis that the decision was made on incorrect information or without all the information or was it a particular discrimination against the individual and if the rights of the individual who had applied and was refused had in fact been impinged on, then the court would be in a position to reverse or ask for a new hearing.

If not, the court would then have to accept the Boxing Ccmnission's decision. And I think that's what the minister should be in a position to accept I don't think that he should be in a position to over-rule them because he thinks it should be over-ruled or the Cabinet thinks it should be over-ruled. I don't think Cabinet wants that responsibility any way. MR. OOYCE: l'lell this is the question. If you vest a discretion in a lxxiy then you subject that discretion to a review. You say that it srould be, their quashed or re-apply or whatever. MR.

SPIVAK: Well either it's a trial de nova, a new trial - a new review or it's a review by the court to see that the individual's rights were protected or at least have been protected in the way in which the application was made and I think that the whole idea of the appeal is to insure that that's been done and to leave the ccmnission with the responsibility of making the decision and exercising their discretion. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. MR. OOYCE: I'm not going to debate Mr.

Chairman, but nevertheless this is what my question is, if you' re saying that it should be one or the other, if it is a trial as to whether the person who applied for a penn it or a license to hold an exhibition has canplied with the law, that is one thing but if you're saying that the trial should be \mether the Carmission was right or wrong in exercising a discretion that's another thing in my mind. I just ask what are you proposing? MR.

SPIVAK: I'm saying that the Ccmnission should exercise a discretion and the right of appeal exists for sareone wtnse rights have been impinged on because in the mann er in which they exercised it, they either did not handle then selves correctly in reviewing the information or they obtained wrong information or obtained dOC1..lllEntation that was made non available to the license applicant in which they then said that you' re not a good person, we don't want to provide a license for you and he would say what information have you, and they'd say - that information is our own and I think the court would find that that information would have to be released to him.

All I'm sinqlly saying is that I don't think that the whole object of the appeal is for a conplete review de nova of the license application is to see that the law's been upheld and that the individual's rights are being protected. MR. CHAIRMAc�: �1r. Toupin. r.m.. 'IDUPIN: r·tr. Chairman, first of all not being the initiator of this clause, I checked with Mr. Balkaran for the reason for having "the minister" instead of any level of the court itself and I'm told that it was in sare cases a question of time where a court would not be accessible as say the minister given responsibility for this Act.

The minister in taking the decision would necessarily want to make probably the same review as the Jucl:Je of the Court would before reaching a decision, so that's the reason that was given to me .

78 May 27, 1974 MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Pawley. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Chai rrran I want to comtent first on the tine element because I do suspect that the re's a serious time element here that a person applies to the Ccmniss ion for a penn it, general ly would not be too distant fran the event itself , and in the event of refusal by the Comniss ion to grant the penn it then there would be a very limited period of time in which the matter oould be dealt with in a court thus the matter is referred to the minister so that the time squeeze - also I would suggest that the wording is such that it reads "may appeal the de cision of the ccmnission" relates to the appeal of the de cision itself.

Cer tainly if the ccmnission has acted in a way that is abusive or excessive of its J:QWers , then I would suspect and bow to Mr.

Balkaran on this , that there would be then a course , an avenue to the court if there 's an excess of paver being dealt with in a way that is contrary to the function of the Carmission itself but here we're dealing with the discretion , the de cision, the discretion as to the actual de cision limited to that narrow area which really is a question of discretion rather than one of law in which the minister would for tine element onl y, the practical reason of time element I would think would be the better person to make it.

I would concur that I would sooner not - it was purely a question of theory I would sooner see the minister not be placed in this position that I suspect it's a matter of pra cticality that he's being placed in this position. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Graham MR. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman , I fail to see the reasoning behind the so called slown ess of the court because it "''asn't too long a;ro that we sat in this ccmni ttee and we heard the various argtments put forward on whether a Judge of the Court should be required when it cane to the question of blood tran sfusions which I'm sure is a far ITDre urgent nature than this and the ccmnittee at that time decided in favour of a Judge. MR. CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? Mr. Shennan MR. SHER-1AN: CA\e final note Mr. Chainnan , I think that we would certainl y a;rree, to this

Section the way it is worded provided the decision of the minister weren't final but I fail to see why a political person should be able to sit in ju1gnent on a de cision affecting sarebody' s livelihood. I don' t see the reason or the l<X3'ic or the fairness in that. It seems to rre that where a boxing praroter or a wrestlirr)' pronoter' s livel ihood is concerned, or anybod y' s livelihood is concerned, the recourse should be to the courts , not to a political person but as long as the minister's dec ision is not final , then if there were one further step that the pronuter could take , then this

section would be accepta.�le. MR. CHAIRI\fAN: Any further discussion? 10 (7) passed. Hr. Graham MR. GRAHAM: I think this is a fairly important thing mainly because of the fact that \-Je have a

section 10 (5) and I want to refer the Ccmnittee to

section 10 (5) which says"the carmission may, where it considers it to be in the interest of the public or in the general intere st of boxing" now that in itself aliTDst invites a difference of opinion and the difference of opinion I think should and can only best be clarified by the court. MR. CHAIRMAN: �1r. Bil ton MR. BILTON: Well �1r. Chairman, I thought that my colleague , Mr. Shennan made a sincere and sound plea and I would like to hear fran the sponsor of this amendment as to whether or not what he had to say is acceptable. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Pawley. MR. PAI'lLEY: I would like to just say to Mr.

Graham that I think there are many licensin g boards had that final discretion as to whether a particular license can be issued.

It must rest with the opinion of .. the licensing board working within the tenns of references referred to that Board, that carmission which is really a board that must be sensitive to the policy as established by governrrent whether it is a licensing board of the Manitoba Liquor Cont rol Carmission or any other lice nsing board , they have to use their discretion wisely and reasonab ly and here I think we have exactly the sane type of situation where it's that licensing board that must detennine whether or not the general interest of professional boxing or wrestling is enhanced by the refusal to grant a penn it to any person.

I think the carmission which deals with this matter is best equipped to deal with that rather than a court. Certa inly if the ccmnis sion on the other hand is acting in a way which would be excessive of its �rs or abusive of its pc:MerS then that would be a matter of concern for the court but as to whether or not the opinion of the ccmnissi on was right or not, whether it was reasonable or not, would be a matter which would be best handled in the way that is proposed by the bill before us. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Bilton.

May 27, 1974 79 HR. BIL'ION: I a pprec iate the minister's remar ks but there 's one thing one �rd that seemed to escape him and that's the matter of appeal , after the cx:mni ssion has made its decision and the person cxm cem ed, he has no other recour se but to appeal to the minister and as has been abtmdan tly pointed out tonight, the minister himse lf appoints the carm.i ssion and it makes it SCI!l:!What sticky and heM can the minister handl e that appeal judiciously in order that everythin g's fair all round? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Graham . MR. GRAHAM : Mr.

Chainnan I was very sorry to hear the Attorney-Gene ral liken this to the actions of the Liquor Control Carmi ssion or the Liquor Licensing Board because that furthe r s trengthens the very argmren t that we' re putting forward . '·1R. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Adam. MR. ADAM: Mr. Chainnan, it brings to mind the Drivers'.Licens e Suspension Appeal Board and it seems to rre that the License Suspension Appeal Board are doing a very good job and handling those decisions that cane before them in a very respon sible nann er as a board and I'm just wond ering what this argmren t is all about. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Graharn. MR.

GRAHAM : And the License Suspens ion Appe al Boar d's decision is further appealed to the court. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any further discussion an that? Mr. Boyoe MR. OOYCE: Mr. Chainnan an a point of order may I s�gest there is a I!Dtian before the ccmnittee. If sooeo ne has a s�gestion maybe they should introd uce a sub amendrren t and we can speak to that or vote an it or satethin g, we're just going around in circles I �uld Sll:J9'est. MR. CHAIR-11\N: Mr. Shennan . MR. SHERMAN: Well in response to Mr. Boyce' s �gestian I was trying to hastily scribble an arren:IDent Mr.

Chainnan and I "V.Uuld like to I!Dve it, but I'm not sure that it's absolutely techni cally oorrect in the way I've written it but the sense of it �uld be this that I would I!Dve that proposed new

section 10 (7) of the Act be arrend ed by elimin ating all the �rds after the �rd "minister" and I leave it to you Sir, as to whether that is a p rope rly described sub amendrren t. I may have left sate thing out there but anyway, what the anendrren t or the sub anen drrent is askin g is that 10 (7) end with the �rd "minister" and that the last five �rds be elimin ated, and as Mr. Petursson sugg ests a period be put after "mini ster". MR. CHAIRMAN : I'm advised that this sub anendrren t is in order. It's accepted. Is there any discussion? Mr. 'lbupin. MR. 'IDUPIN: Well Mr.

Chainnan , if I read the sub anend!lvan t correctly it repeal s all �rds after "minister" �reaning that there 's an appeal to the minister whose decision is not necessarily final. It coul d be a ppeal ed to the oourts. This may not cxmvince nenber s on Law Anendnents but I �d like to refer to the Horse racing Carmi ssian

section 12, "'!he Carmission may in its absolute discretion grant or refuse to grant any license, registration or approva l required under this Act or the regul ations". net · even an a ppea l to the minister. MR. CHAIRMI\N: Is there any further discussion? Mr. Shennan . MR. SHERMAN: Well all I �uld say in response to that Mr. Chainnan is that that's an appeal to the ccmni ssion but it is not an appeal to a political person.

This amendrren t, in its original fonn in front of us calls for an appeal to a political person and says that that appeal will be filed, but it �uld be far better really if the minister wants to put it that way, I �d rather see an a ppeal just go to the carm.ission than go to the minister but I'm not s�gesting that. I think that appeals should be able to be carr ied to the oourt but what we object to is the fact that the gudge �uld be a political person. in this case . MR. CHAIRMAN put the question on the sub anendrren t and after a voice vote declared the I!Dtion lost. (Defeated 12-9) MR.

CHAIRMAN: '!he sub amendrrent is lost, any furthe r deba te on the amendrrent. 10 (7) agreed passed.

Section 3 passed. Sections 5 to ll were read and passed,. Mr. Patrick. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Chainnan this �d probably ccrne in

section 9, about a rredi cal examiner, where is this in the Act - I �der if the minister can give us srne indication or explain where the Act covers rredical examin er. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Balkaran. MR. BI\LKAAAN: Mr. Chainnan , I wond er if I might very briefly reply to that whole question of Iredical examin ers and secon ds and trainers and what not is to be oovered by a fairly lengthy regul ation which is to be filed shortly after this Bill has been passed. A MEMBER: By regulation?

80 May 27, 1974 MR. PATRICK: Well as long as its covered because the whole key to this Act Mr. Chainnan is the nedical examiner. MR. l'ALKARAN: I might add that ITOst of what's in that re:JUlation emanated as a result of the Hewak Inquiry Conmission and you will find that a lot of those re CX)l'[lleil(].ations are errbod ied in that regul ation. rm.. CHl\IRHA'l: �1r. Spivak. HR. SPIVAK: !lay I ask why it wasn't inoorr_x>rated in the 1\ct as opposed to regulation, just as a matter of ••• HR. Bl\LKARAN: Well there �re a lot of administrative details �1r.

Chainnan and we thoUJht that these are properl y things for regulation rather than legislation. !11R. SPIVAK: The only problem l·1r. Chainnan on this and I kn<:M, I appr eciate the work that the Legisl ative Counsel have, the difficulty, the reason for this legisla tion comes as a result of a need for the medical certificate that the Merrber for Assinil:xlia has ne.ntioned and the fact is that I think in principle \'Je sl:Duld have dealt with it in the Act itself. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Toupin MR. 'IDUPIN: Well Mr.

Chairman I agree de finitely with the principle involved here, whether it be in the Act or in the re:JUlations as long as we can have it stick that' s the main thing and if legal oounsel tells us that � are �-rered to pass regulations to that effect that would satisfy rre . MR. SPIVAK: 1-Jell can I ask one question, was the paver there to pas s such a regulation? MR. l'ALKARAN: Yes,

section 9 of the Act ••• MR. SPIVAK: So therefore the medical examination certificate could have been passed bef ore - it wasn't and that's all the ITOre reao;on why it sl:Duld have been specific in this Act as oppo sed to being implied. MR. CHAIRMAN:

Preamble passed, Title passed, Bill be reported. BILL NJ. 62 MR. CHAIRMAN: The new clause is nc:M prepared for Bill 62, � can go back to that and finish it up. Mr. Hiller. MR. MILLER: I would ITOve that

section 3 of Bill 62 be struck out and the folloving

section substituted therefor and I believe it' s being distributed now. 3 subsection 56 (2) of the Act as arrended by adding thereto at the end thereof the words "but the Lieute nant-Governor-in-council may fix the charges or any of them as a rate of interest not less than the long tenn borrowing rate of the go vernne.nt at the tirre the advances of the goverrnrent agencies �re made. " MR. CHAIR-iAN: Mr. Cherniack. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, this proposed anendment then would elimina te the proposed

section in the bill, would revive the original

section with this addendum that is in the anendment. MR. CHAIRMAN: Any discussion on the new

section 3. Mr. Minaker. MR. MINAKER: Mr. Chainnan is that a typogra phical error in the third line there where it says "Counsel may fix the charges or any of them ". Should that not read "of any of them ". MR. CHERNIACK: Well Mr. Chairrnan , I think the reason for the question is Mr. Hinaker dcesn' t have the Bill before him. I' m sorry the Act, if you look at the Act the preceding

section describes various charges which could be discount s, forei gn exchange, brokerage fees, but all of it would be translated into an interest rate because the borrowinq agency doesn 't care what the nature of the charge is just the MR. MINAKER: Thanks Mr. Chainnan. MR. CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion.

Section 3 passed. The remainder of the Bill was read and passed. MR. CHERNIACK : May I thank l:Dnourable rrembers Mr. Chainnan and you. BILL NJ. 14 MR. CHAIRMAN: Bill 14

Section 1. Mr • .Boyce MR. IDYCE: I move that Bill No. 14

an Act to arrend the Amusement Act be arrended by striking out

Section 1 thereof. That' s a ITOtion. Yes then ther e's a re-numbering, yes then �' ll renumber

section 2 and No. 1. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Spiva k. MR. SPIVAK: Can I understand the reasons for it, for the deletion? MR. CHIUR-lAN: Mr. Balkaran. MR. BALKARAN: Mr. Chainnan, as I recall without having the Act before rre nov that in t.� definition of a place of amusement, scl:Dols, oolleges, universities and churches, sareof them �re not excluded and this was an atterpt to exclude sare

May 27, 1974 (MR. J3.l\LKARAN Cont'd) •••• • of them under the circumstances set out in (v.

l) and (vi) and awarently a decision was made at a later date not to exenpt them and so they are taken out, so that they will then cxne within definition of places of arnuserent under certain circumstances. MR. SPIVAK: �'Ell really what you're saying is that the law will be as it was before. �1R. J3.l\LKARAN: Right. MR. 'IUJPIN: I have the Bill and the explanation of the Bill before ne and that is the explanation given here (v�

l) as an example is sci'Dol, college or university or church where an admission fee is charged and where the public is invited to view the arrusement and that's the reason why it's been withdrawn. Bl MR. CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? Arrendment passed.

Section 2 Mr. Boyce. MR. OOYCE: Then this beacmes technical Mr. Chairnan. That Bill N:>. 14 being

an Act to arrend the Amusement Act be anended by re-numbering sections 2, 3, and 4 thereof as sections 1, 2, and 3 thereof. � have stricken 1 and so 2 becxnes ••• MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Mr. Balkaran. MR. J3.l\LKARAN: Mr. Chairnan, because of the re-numbering of

section 2 as

section 1, I \\Under if Irembers 'lo.Uuld in the first line of

section 2 roN re-numbered N:>. 1 strike out the '1\Urd "the Act" and incltrle the phrase "The Amusements Act being'

chapter 1i70 of the Revised Statutes of �-1anitoba. MR. OOYCE: So rroved Mr. Chainnan. MR. CHAIRMAN: Rny debate on the anendment to renumber sections 2, 3 and 4? Agreed. Hr. Boyce. MR. OOYCE: If you'd n� pass the renumbered sections 1, 2 and 3 MR. CHAIRMAN: sections 1 and 2 were read and passed.

Section 3. Mr. Boyce . MR. OOYCE: Mr. Chairnan I 'lo.Uuld rrove that Bill 14 be arrended by adding thereto :imnediately after the renumbered

section 3 thereof the foll�ing section: subsection 22 sub clause (1) anendment as anended 4 subsection 22.1 of the Act is arrended by adding thereto :imnediately after the word "chairnan" in the third line thereof the '1\Urds "and one as vice chainnan who shall act in the place of and with all the duties and functions of the chairnan during the absence or incapacity or at the request of the chairnan" • MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. McKenzie. MR. M::KENZIE: Scm:iliody explain that

section because that's a new one. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. 'Ibupin MR. 'IUJPIN: �ll Mr. Chairnan, yes it is a new

section and I tlD'IX)'ht that the

section as read by Mr. Boyce was you kn� quite clear. The main purpose for this

section is to all� the vice chairnan to act instead of the chairnan when so requested, with the saroo pcMers. If you take as an exarrple the classification board as we have it, there is a practical full tine vice chairnan and the chairnan is only part tine and we' re intending the vice chairnan to act with the powers of the chair- man . MR. CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? MR. OOYCE: Maybe we could use this as a IOOdel for mayor and deputy mayor. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4 passed.

Section 5 Mr. Boyce MR. BOYCE: Mr. Chainnan, I rrove that

section 5 of Bill 14 be struck out and the foll�ing

section be substituted therefor:

Section 26 anended

(5) Section 26 of the Act is anended (

a) by striking out the words "leased or exhibited" in the first line , of subsection (1) thereof and substituting therefor the '1\Urds "or leased or exhibited at a place of anrusenent", and (

b) by adding thereto irrm:rliately after subsection (1) thereof the foll�ing subsection schools, colleges, etc. deered to be place of amusenent 26 (1.1) nobdthstanding clause 2 sub (

j) for the purposes of this section, "a school, college, university or church where a film or slide is exhibited, to which the public is invited and for which an admission fee is charged shall be deerred to be a place of anrusenent and a film or slide shall not be exhibited until it is first classified by the board." MR. SPIVAK: I think the Minister should explain this clause. �t!R. CHAIRMAN: Mr. 'Ibupin MR. 'IUJPIN: Well again Hr.

Chairman, as the Act n� stands if a film that is shown 5¥-Y at a university, at a school and even though there is an entrance fee charged, those films are not being classified and what we' re saying here if there is to be a fee charged, when those films are being shown in the school, college, university or church, that the film classification board regulation or act should apply and that's the reason for the anendment. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. McKenzie

82 May 27, 1974 MR. �ZIE: can I ask the Minister another question . Mr. Chainnan , am I to 1.mderstand then that you can't sh£M any type of film in a school or church l.mless it's been classified. MR. 'IUJPIN: Mr. Chairman, if there is a charge . MR. McKENZIE: By the Board or by who? MR. 'IUJPIN: By anyone , you Jma.i classified by the Board . MR. CHAIRMl\N : Mr. Spivak. MR. SPIVAK : But Mr. Chainnan , let ' s 1.mderstand it and I haven ' t the 1\ct in front of rre and I don 't know what the

interpretation of sl ide is. Is there a defini tion

section as to what slide is, or a slide to be interpreted as to what we 1.mderstand a slide presentatim to rrean. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Toupin MR. 'IUJPIN: '!here is a definition . MR. CHAIRMl\N: Mr. Balkaran . MR. BIU.KARAN : The present definition Mr. Chainnan reads "Slide rreans any stationary picture, slide or any similar device for use in conj�.mction \\d.th a cinematograph and includes an advertising slide. " MR. SPIVAK: \'Ell but Mr. Chainnan , let 's try and 1.mderstand the full intent of the

section and then 1.mde rstand its application. That would rrean that any visiting lecturer in the province , who has a slide presentation to make and in connection with any matter that he may be discussing , and it 's presented by a college or a university or a church , will have to have the film classification board approve the slide before that presentation can be made if there 's a charge for the lecture - the lecture being a sl ide film presentation along with his remar ks. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Toupin MR. 'IDUPIN: Mr.

Chainnan , my understanding is that the film or the slide would have to be classified by the classification board if there is a charge to see the film or the slide in question , not to hear the lectur er. MR. SPIVAK: Yes , but I don't think that's clear in this

section and there may have to be an amendrre nt . I rrean, there are many many lectures that take place in universities and colleges and schools, where there are slide presentations and for which there are charg es, no, no for which there are charges - it's not an l.n'l.OCII'Ilnn practice for universities to bring in a visiting lecturer who in fact, for which there will be a naninal charge. As a matter of fact Mr.

Chainnan, there are a nunber of programs conducted at �.miversity which would consist of a whole week of progranming and for which a person would pay an admission in which there could be a nunber of things , a nunber of events one of which would be a lecturer talking on a particular subject , with a slide presentation , and I don't think that this is clear and I don 't think it's the intent to try and have the film classification board be in the posi tim of having to classify every slide presentation . MR. MILLER: It depends on the subject matter. MR.

SPIVAK: \'Ell I Jma.i but I think the intent of the Act is sort of i.rrplicit in the remarks of the Ibnour able Minister of Health and Social Developrent but I don't think you 're covering it there and as a matter of fact, I think this brush is away too broad for what is intended . MR. C�: Mr. r.t:: Kenzie r.m. MeKENZIE : Mr. Chairman I ' m rather ann oyed that these amen drre nts are wide ranging and they change the whole concept of the Bill at this late stage in carrnittee and the next

section the y're dealing with, 27 where it's again changing the context fran "an d" to "or" I just wonder maybe the Bill should be redr afted. MR. OIAIRMAN: Mr. Jo hnston. MR. J. FRANK JOHNS'roN: Mr. Chainnan , I'd just like to get Satv:!thing clear on this bill. Are we saying if SO'IY:! fellow ernes into the city or SalY:! fellow that lives in this city rents a church hall and wants to sh£M slides on his trip to Africa and charges 50 cents a person for doing so, that he has to have it classified? I don't think you can police it. I think you 've got a piece of legislation that' s :inpossible to police . MR.

OIAIRMI\N: Mr. Patrick . MR. PATRICK: Mr. Chairman if I can use an exanple if we had MI'C or Manitoba Telephone System which is Ml'S showing us a film on COlli!Ull1ication and we hcq:pmed to charge say for sorre worthy cause, will that film or slide - would that have to be classified? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Jorgenson. MR. JOR:;ENSON: ••• lfor a teacher in a j�.mior class in school could show the worse pornographic slides you could possibly imagine and because that teacher wasn 't

May 27, 1974 (MR. JOR;ENSON Cont 'd ) ••••• charging they would be pennitted to be shCMn . I think the minister soould have another look at this. I see the perplexed look on his face and I'm sure that he's now filled with consternation and I wonder if he would now want to take a little tine off to look at it and hii 'lie his staff perhaps re-draft the

section . MR. CHAIBMAN: Mr. Toup in. Order please. MR. 'IDUPIN: Mr. Chainnan, we have two alternatives before us, one is to accept this very limited arrendlrent to this bill which has sare type of control for slides , films that are being shc::Mn in our schools for those that have a charge to it or if we don 't have the

section at all, there is no provision whatsoever in the existing act to actually have any type of classification for film slides whatever there is shCMn in the schoo l, college or church. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Spivak MR. SPIVAK: �'Ell I think Mr. Chainnan, we are really dCMn to the point 83 of making a decision .

Is the purpose of the CllleilCimant to make colleg es , universities and schools oonply with the law like the acmnercial institutions or is the purpose of the bill to be a fonn of censorship , because in effect what I believe the honourable I!leiDer is saying , the minister is saying that this is one way of insuring and reviewing and conceivably censoring films or slides that can be shc::Mn at churches , schoo ls, college s or universities and it would seem to me that if that is the intent , then let's forget about it and let's eliminate this

section . MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Boyce MR. OOYCE : Mr. Chainnan I've had an owortunity to consider the SUJgestion of the Member for M:>rris and sonetimes his sugg estions are worthy of note and in this particular case, I would be inclined to ask leave of the cxmnittee to withdraw my amendrrent. MEMBERS: Good �.ffi.. CHAIRMAN: Agreed .

Section 5 passed.

Section 6, Mr. Boyce. �m. IDYCE : I would nnve that the proposed subsection 27 (4) of the l\musement Act as set out in

section 6 of Rill 14 be amended by strikinq out the word "an d" where it appears for the first time in the 4th line thereof and substituting therefor the word "or" . MR. CHAIRMAN: Hr. 'lbupin HR. 'IDUPIN: Hr. Chainnan , if you look at the bill itself, the only reason for this amendrrent is to not have both the chairman and the vice chairman view, but to have the chairman or the vice chairman, allowing for either to chair on say a ccmnittee of three to view a film and in sare cases you could have two cxmnittees working at the same t.ime viewing different films and that is the only intent of this slight amendment.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Agreed . 6 as amended passed. Sections 7 and 8 were read and passed.

Section 9. Mr. Boyce. MR. OOYCE : I would nnve that

section 9 and this amend!rent is on the other sheet that was distributed, that

section 9 of Bill 14 be struck out and the following

section substituted therefor : Subsection 35 (1) emended 9. Subsection 35 (1) of the Act is amended (

a) by adding thereto imrediately after the word "fonns" in the first line of clause (

g) thereof the word "for the exhibition at a place of amusement and" and (

b) by adding thereto innedi ately after clause (

k) thereof the following clause (1) prescribing fonns of identification cards for use under this Act . I sul:rnit this amend!rent for the cxmnittee' s consideration . MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. 'lbupin MR. 'IUJPIN: Mr. Chairman the explanation that I have before me for the amendrrent in regard to

section 35 first of all to penn it unclass ified fi lms to be shCMn in school s, colleges and universities for educational �ses where no admission fee is charged , well that would have to be actually that first part of the amend!rent Mr. Chairman I contend could be dropped now that we've decided to drop tm other amend!rent. It would leave us with (

b) that you have before you . MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Spi vak MR. SPIVAK: Are you talking about the CllleilCimant to the Act? MR. 'IUJPIN : No the amend!rent. 11R. CHAI:IWIN: 35

(1) SO we would then delete (

a) and renumber (

b) as (

a) MR. 'IUJPIN: l'lr. Chainna n, that's because we've dropped the - the Corrmittee decided to drop the other

section dealing with uncl assified films. �.ffi.. IDYCE : Mr. Chairman if I may by leave, then I would nnve, withdraw that nntion and move that

section 9 of Bill 14 be struck out and the following

section substituted therefor : Subsection 35 (1) amended. 9 Subsection 35 (1) of the Act is

84 May 27, 1974 (HR. OOYCE Cont'd) •• ••• anended by adding thereto irmediately after clause (

k) thereof the follG�ing clause (1) prescribing fonns of identific ation cards for use under this Act. Is that what you want? MR. 'IDJPIN: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Spivak:. MR. SPIVAK: Well let' s nG� t.mderstand, are there identification cards nG� being prescribed by a governnett agency, by the goverrurent? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Toupin MR. 'IDUPIN: Mr. Chainnan, there is not nGI but the intent is to have them and to be E'!!Tlpruered by this

section of the act. MR. SPIVAK: Has this request CXlllE to the minister? MR. TOUPIN: Yes it has. MR. SPIVAK : Fran whom? MR. 'TOUPIN: It has cnre fran the operators of theatres and others. MR. SPIVAK: Do they not operate their own identif ication card system? MR. 'IDUPIN: No not to the extent that we would like to see them, to the extent that we could enforce certain sections of the Act. MR. GREEN: It's a volt.mtary system. In other Nords if a person wishes to have a card ••• HR. CHAIRMAN: t-A:>uld you use the microphone Mr. Green please. MR. GREEN: I'm sorry , well 11r.

Chainnan I'm sorry for the infonnality my understanding is that if a person wants to have a card which he knG�S will be accepted by the theatre, that this kind of card will be avai lable. I do not believe that there is a

section in the act which says that a person must have a card in order to get in. That is sorrething that if he cx:rnes without a card, he'l l sort of depend on whether the theatre lets him in. If he wants that type of card, he can get one. MR. SPIVAK : Can I ask - is the card to be distributed by the goverrurent or a goverrurent agency? HR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Toupin . MR. 'IOUPIN: Mr. Chainnan that decision has not been taken. It could be either. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1·1r. Spi vak . MR.

SPIVAK : I think it is one thing for the goverrurent to prescribe a form of identification card that may be suitable for those for whan the Act applies . I think they themselves could get together and prescribe that form without the goverrurent having to do it. It would be another thing for a government agency to dis tribute it or for requests, or processing to have to go through a goverrurent agency. I don't think you particularly want that and I don't think that's a desirable thing.

I just wonder really whether this is sorrething that we should be legislating or whether this is n't really sanething that cx:rnes in agreement of those people who cnre under the Armlserrent Act for they thernsel ves to decide. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Green . MR. GREEN : �ll Mr.

Chainnan I think that probably we'r e talking about a sort of enforcerrent problem or an estoppel kind of situation whereby if a person has this card, such as is prescribed and he is satisfied that, and the theatre owner is satisfied that having looked at that card he will not sort of be charged with having permitted a person under the age of 18 to see the film that if it 's their own form of identification he isn 't sure because it 's not sorrething which has any official effect. NCM I sort of presumed that, I don't knG� whether that' s the minister's intention, that' s what he indicates. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr.

Jorgenson. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Chainnan as I understand it, there is no �ulsion on the part of anyone to have such a card - all this

section is doing is outlining the form of the identification card, so that there is a standard card that is to be used . Now that individual as I understand it, can get it processed anywhere. The only regulation that is intended here is that there would be a standard form which would be used in the making of tl'nse cards. Is that correct? Nobody was listening. MR. GREEN: Mr. Jorgenson has asked a question. MR. 'IDJPIN: I' m sorry Mr. Chainnan I did n't hear that. MR. CHAIRMAN:" Mr. Jorgenson would you like to repeat the question? MR. JOffiENSON: 'lhnlk you. �1R. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Spi vak: MR. SPIVAK: Mr.

Chainnan , I would think that if the answer is yes and I believe that that is the case fran what Mr. Green has told me, that it would be necessary clearly for the Hinister to state that, so that we know that because that

May 27, 1974 (MR. SPIVAK Con t'd ) . .really would mean that the possibi lities that he talked about have been el iminated , at least one has been elimin ated and we rDN 'kncM that this is just a fonn that will be designed by the gove rnrren t. 'nla t' s all this really is . MR. 'IDUPIN: Yes MR. SPIVAK: �ik:!ll , but it will not be distributed by the go vernrren t? MR. 'IOUPIN: l'l'e ll Mr. Chainnan in all fairn ess, I did say awhile ago that that dec ision was not taken by gove rnrren t.

Right nCM the gove rnrrent is not supp lying cards , the only card that is being supplied by a government de partrrent 85 right nCM is the birth certificate by the Depar"l:lrent of Health and Social Dev eloprent . HR. CI-IAirowJ : :tr. Spivak l\1R. SPIVAK: But !·tr. Chainnan, again I accept that and I accept the fact that this is to protect the theatre CMners . I have a cament that maybe could be made on that in one second , par ticularly with Mr.

Mackling present here , but I' ll talk about it in a fe., rrments but I would think that what we'r e really talking about is a fo:rrn or an: identification card to be approved as a card recognized by all theatre owners or all those who are under the Amusenent Act and not to be pu blished by the gove rnrrent but to be made available by those who are under the Amusenent Act and if that' s clear , it' s fine but the lti.nister isn' t really still conf inning that.

He's still saying it could be pr ocessed by governrrent and I don 't see the ne cessity of that and I'd like SCIIE declaration that that will be the policy. "1R. JORGENSON : Say it isn' t true . MR. SPIVAK: Again Mr. Chainnan, the minister MR. 'IDUPIN: Mr. Chainnan , on a point of order the gOITernrrent is not going to set policy in this roan . MR. SPIVAK: 1'1ell I 'kncM but you' re asking MR. 'IDUPIN: The Hono urable Leader of the Opposition is atterrpting to get a gove rnrrent policy struck on the

section of this Bill that allCMS certain things to happen by regulation and he can read what he likes in the amendrre nt. The amendrrent is before him. If he doe sn' t like it, he can vote against it. MR. SPIVAK: l"le ll Mr.

Chainnan , you 'kncM I think this is probably • •. and maybe that he would want to caucus and then arrive at a decision on this but I - because I don't think the gene ral feeling of the rrembers of the gove rnrrent here would be that they would want to be involved in the actual distribution of it and my concern is that I can und erstand an approval for a fonn to be agreed on and to be the fonn that will CCIIE out of regulation but I think it's another thing to talk about the gove rnrrent being involved in the dis tribution of it and being involved in the ident ification of it.

NCM I mmtioned the theatre owners for a very good reason and Mr. Mackling for a very good reason as well.

I just want SCIIE of the rrembers to recall the debates that occurred with respect to the changes that took place in this Act in the Classific ation Board and the fact that theatre CMners were liable under the Criminal Code for obscenity and the pleas that were made at that tine for SCIIE recognition to be given to the theatre CMners of what likely would be cons idered dJscene under the Federal Act so that the theatre CMner would not be put in je opardy as a result of making or playing the film and the position was that the decision would have to be that of the theatre CMner , not the governrrent and not the Classifi cation Board.

It was not up to them. It was a legal positi on to be detennined in law and therefore the theatre CMner wasn 't protected and he had to take the risk hilnself . N:Jw the positi on of the go vernrrent was there that there would not be SCIIE protection for the theatre owner , but the identification card that we'r e talking about was essentially for the purpose of protecting the theatre owner right today that's really one of the reasons for it. It's not for the protection of the individua l.

It' s for the protection of the theatre owner , so ther e's a bit of a contradictory positi on , but rather than debate the issue at lenqth , it would seem to rre that the go vernrren t, throUJh the Minister should make SCIIE indication nCM that the ident ification cards are for distribution by those involved in the arnuserrent field and under the 1\muserre nt Act and is not SCI!Ething that will be required to be distributed by a gov ernrrent body or agency.

86 May 27 , 1974 MR. CHAIR'!AN : Mr. Green. MR. GREEN: Well, Mr.

Chaiman , the honourable nerber says that the.te is a contradiction, I don't think that the.te is a contradicticn and tha t's not .reall y the tATUSt of his position but I'l l deal with it very briefly . toben we said that the theat.te owner would have to decide what oosoenity neant and that the.te would be no clearance by the Provincial Government as to what is ooscene and what is rot cbscene, it was .relative to a federal statute . 'lhe pn:trlbition about child.ten under 18 cx:rning to an 1.n1classified film is a provincial statute , a provinci al pn:trlbi tion and it 's the enforcenent of your CMn law that is being involved and thez:efo.te if the.te is an identi fication card which the province will accept as being satisfactory identi fication, I think that sarething like this what dc:ne with .regard to liquor as we ll , I' m not suz:e but if it wasn't -- ro.

But the.te was a voli.B'ltary identifica tion dealt with at arother tine .

I would like to kncM fran the Minister or fran the Oppcs ition rreni:Jers who have raised it, provided it is strictly vol1.n1tary and provided it is dealing with a fonn, what is the danger of having the fonn p.tescribed and available to anybody who wants it through the Departnent of Touri sm, if that is what is requested, and the Minister hasn't indicated that it will be that way or the other way.But at this point , I don't see why if the Provincial Goverment said that this is the fonn and it 's available at this place , heM in that way, heM that would in any way interfez:e with the rights of the perscns concerned and it certainl y would make it much easier than to have identi fication fonns distributed by each theat.te or by a nl.l!tber of theat.tes .

If the.te is a pn:blem, I 'd like to kncM what it is. MR. CHAIRMAN : Mr. Patridt. MR. PATRICK : Mr. Cha innan, the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources asked what the feeling is of the <:pposi tion or the nerrbers of the ccrrmi. ttee . My personal feeling is that the z:e's nothing wrong with the pz:escribed fonn, I think it 's C}Xld, in fact I think it will facilitate many yo1.n1g people and it would also facilitate the theat.te owners as I see nothing wrong with that at all.

I think it 's a good thing provided it is strictly vol1.n1tary and provided the gove rnnent just provides the fozm and it 's a specific special fonn and let the ones who want to use it, it will be up to the theat.te CMners or to the people that want to secuz:e the card, it would be up to them to get one . MR. CHAIR'!AN : Mr. Shennan. MR. SI-IER'fAN : Well, Mr. Chainnan, just a question , through you to the Minister , it 's my 1.n1derstanding that the.te is a fonn of I.

D. card that many students carry at the p.tesent tine , not necessarily for films but for ootaining entry to drinking establishnents and that sort of thing. And I would just like to kncM fran him or fran the Minister of Health and Social Develq:ment what az:e, you kncM, what az:e the paraneters I.B'lder which those I. D. cards az:e drawn up and made available . And is it dc:ne in a way which would could be applicable in this situation and that would be accep table all ro1.n1d. MR. CHAIR'!AN : Mr. Toup in. MR. '.OOUPIN: Well, Mr. Chainnan, again I have to go to legal counsel that would advise us to have a

section within this bill to provide for a fonn that could have certain I. D. cards that az:e nCM in circulation qualify those having, say , you knCM, the birth of the individual, the pictuz:e of the individual concerned in that , but that fonn itself will have to be spelled out by .regulation but the.te ' s a need in this Act to provide for us. MR. CHAIR'!AN: Mr. Miller. MR. MILLER: Mr. Chainnan, I knCM that many of the high schools, I!OSt of them, do have I.

D. cards. 'lhey have them because the students want to take a bus and they want to pay student faz:e and they 'z:e fairly large in size , they az:e questioned by the transit people . They also use it to get into theat z:es . It shCMS their pictuz:e and other infonnation about the student . HCMe ver, it' s not a requiz:enent , it' s sarething that the school itself arranges for and sare mmber of camercial finns supply them. MR. SHER'!AN : Wel l, Mr. Chaiman, do these follCM a pz:escribed fonn or would have a student fran Sisler for exarrp le have a diffez:ent lodting card • • • MR.

MILLER: '!hey might , yes , every school might care up with a diff ez:ent fonn or a diff ez:ent card. Sare have pictuz:es , sare don't; sare have descriptions , sare dcn't, sare don't even have an age , just their grade . MR. CHAIRMAN : Secticn 9 as anended --p ass .

Section 10- MR. BALKARAN: Could I ruq>lain the change to

Section 10? MR. CHAIRMAN : Mr. Balkaran. MR. BALKARAN:

Section 10 , Mr. Cha innan, it' s not on that sheet of anend rrents but

Section 10 would have to .read this way and I I.B'lderstand fran the Minister

May 27, 1974 87 (MR. BALKARAN con t'd } •••• that he wanted this last dl.ange with respect to the I. D. card to cme into force m proclama tion. And so that

Section 10 would read: "'!his Act except

Section 9 cares into force m the day it received Rafal Assent and

Section 9 of the Act cmes into force m the day affixed by proclamation . MR. OOYCE: So moved . MR. CHAIRMAN:

Section 10 as arrended --pass • Preanble--pass � Title--pass. Bill be repo rted. BILL 15 MR. CHAI:Rm: Bill 15 . The Queen 1s Bendl. Act.

Section 1 - Mr. Miller. MR. MILLER: Mr . Ola innan, THAT Bill 15 be arre nded by nmbering sections 1 to 4 thereof as sections 2 to 5 respectively and by adding thereto , at the beginning thereof , the follaNing sectim :

Section 6 as arren ded. 1. Secticn 6 of The Quee n's Bendl. Act, being dl.apter C280 of the Revised Statutes , is arre nded by striking out the word "seven" in the 2nd line thereof and substituting therefor the word "eight" . MR. TALL IN: This increases the nU!!b er of puisne judges in the Court of Queen 's Bench from seven to eight but it has to come into force on proclamation because it depends on an arrendrre nt to the Judges ' Act, the Federal Act. MR. CHAI:Rm: Order please . Mr. Pawley . MR. PAWLEY : Mr.

Olainnan , this relates to the addition of one judge in the / Court of Quee n's Bendl. from the existing seven , increased to eight. A year ago there was a request to the Law Society of Manit:d:>a to prepare a report for us and after consultation with the Judges of the Court of Queen's Bendl. , the anount of cases that had been handled over the past while , significant increase in cases all pointed to the justification for an increase by one of the nmber of judges in the Court of Queen 's Bendl. , and that' s led to the arren dnent pJ::CPOSed by Mr. Miller . MR. CHAIRMAN : Mr. Boyce . MR.

OOYCE : Well with a due respect to IT¥ colleagues we ll versed in the law, can sarebody explain to rce what in heavens narre a "puisne" judge is? MR. CHAIRMAN : Mr. Pawley . MR. PAWLEY: A puisne judge sinply relates to the judges in the Court of Quee n's Bendl.. Trial judges in the Court of Quee n' s Bendl. . MR. OOYCE: Could you spell that? MR. PAWLEY: P-u-i-s-n-e . Nonnan Frendl. meaning "lesse r" ; lesser to the Court of Quee n's Bendl.--lesser to the Court of Appeal. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Just so that you don 't give the transcribers any difficulty, would you just explain that again, you were spelling the word puisne . MR. PAWLEY : Yes , it relates to lesser than the Olief Justice . MR. CHAI:Rm : Thank you.

Section 1 as arre nded-- pass . (Sections 1 to 4 were read and passed. } Sectim 5--Mr . Miller . MR. MILLER: Mr. Olainnan , I rrove that

Section 5 of Bill 15, as ren U!!bered, (section 4 of the Bill as printed} be arren ded (a} by striking out the word and figure "sec tion.. l" in the 1st line thereof and substituting therefor the words and figures "sec tions 1 and 2" � and (

b) by striking out the words and figure "section 1 cares" in the 2nd line thereof and substituting therefor the words and figures "sections 1 and 2 cme" . MR. CHAIRMAN:

Section 5 as arren ded-pas s.

Preamble--p ass � Title--pass . Bill be reported . MR. CHAIIWIN: Is Mr . Burtniak here? Mr. Boyce. MR. OOYCE: Just so we'l l kn<:M, sate people are here under the impression that Bill No. 7 is caning up. It 's 11¥ understanding that the Minister of Labour is not going to proceed with this at this hour . What is the intention of the House lea der, may I ask. MR. MILLER: There 's still the Olild Welf are Act. I l1q?e it' s covered. MR. OOYCE: No, I just wanted to make arr angements to see how long I was going to be here this even ing is all • • • MR. PAIJLLEY: We will not as far as I am concerned • • • MR.

CHAIRMAN: Will you use the microphone please. MR. PAIJLLEY: Well you do n't need the micrc:phone for that. Unless I' m over ruled by my colleagu es , we will not proceed with Bill No. 7 this even ing . MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Spivak. MR. SPIVAK: I know that the Honourable Minister of Health and Social Developnent wants to go on 49 and there were sate arrendrre nts that were given. But I wander if there are any other bills that we still have to do other than 49 , other than 7 and 49 .

88 May 27, 1974 MR. CHAIIMIN : We have several bills left . • • MR. SPIVAK: I don 't knCM hCM long we're going to be here tonight . MR. CHAIIMIN: '!he next one I have before me is Bill 23. Is Mr. Jorgenson here? Bill No. 36. Bill No. 36, '!he Public Sdloo ls Act. Boyce . BILL NO. 36 MR. CHAIIMIN : (Sectioos l to 7 were read and pass ed. ) Secticn 8, -- Mr. MR. BOYCE: I would I!Dve that clause 8 ( 1 ) (

b) of Bill 36 be struck out and the following clause substituted therefor : (

b) for a ward in a sdlool division or a school division that is not entirely within the City of Winnipeg, the Sll\e as the term of office for oouncillors of the nunicipality in which a major part of that ward or school .division is situated . MR. CHAIRMI\N: Mr. Han uschak. MR. HANUSCHAK: The reasons for this, I believe that I did make reference to it when I introduced the bill for second reading or upon closing debate . Of the sdlool divisicms listed in

section 7, there is me , narre ly St. Vital, which is not divided into wards but where all the trustees are elected at large. And this would take care of St. Vital and of any other school divisicm which at any time in the future may decide to elect all of its trustees at large .

So then it would DEan that the election day and the tenn of office would be that of the tenn of office of the rmm icipal councillors in which the major portion of the ward: it takes care of both wards and school divisioos because you 'll notice it refers to both because there are sdlool di visicms around the fringe of Winnipeg whose wards extend beyond the boundaries of Win nipeg. So this takes care of both . It takes care of what (

b) originally intended to take care of and also takes care of St. Vital. MR. CHAIIM\N : Mr. Paulley. MR. PAULLEY : • • • have a look at that because I 'm not sure how this might a[:ply in the sdlool divisim of Springfield-Tr anscona. There 's a major portim ou tside, whether it 's one ward or not , Mr. Mini ster, I' m not sure. MR. HJINUSCliAK: No, it isn 't one ward.

Trans oona-Springfi eld is divided into wards and therefore in those wards that are located within the City of Winnipeg , the tenn of office and electim day would be the sane as that for the City of Winnipeg Counci l. '!hose wards lying outside the City of Win nipeg or if the major portion of the ward lies outside the City of Winnipeg then the election day and te DllS of office would coincide with the electicm day and term of office of the municipal ooun cillors of that ward. MR. Pl\ULLEY: Okay, we'l l let it go. Maybe I should have done sane IIDre harewo:r:k. MR. OIAIIMIN: Mr. Graham. MR.

GRAHAM: Mr. <llainnan, when the Minister refers to a major part, is he talking about geography or geographical portion , population portion or assessment portion? MR. HJINUSCliAK: I believe it 's geographi cal. MR. GRAHAM: �uld the Minister then care to spell that out in the anendnent? MR. T ALL IN: Because of the fact that sdlool districts and divisions and wards are described as areas, a part of it could ally be a part of the area, not a part of the popula tion. MR. CHAIIMIN:

Section 8, as anended- -pass.

Section 9- MR. HANUSCliAK: Mr. Olainnan, well at sane point but I will mention it nCM before we pass Secticms 9 and l 0. We should add a

section and I wish to thank the Hmourable r-e:rt:>er for Brandcn West for drawing this to the House 's attenticn when this bill was up for secmd reading. But the election day and tenn of office of trustees elected , ocmoencing in the year 19 76 , and continuing thereafter isn 't spelled out with absolute clarity. The electim day and tenn of office for those elected this fall and next year is quite clear but then what harPEnS o:mnencing ]97 6. So the Hmourable � for Brandon West has made a suggestion that sane reference be made to it but in the year 19 76 and continuing thereaft er, while it would then read sanething simi lar to

Section 7, you knCM , where 19 76 and continuing thereafter the election for members of schoOl trustees shall be held in the sane date and for the sane te DllS as the nenbers of the oouncil of the City of Brandon . MR. McGILL : Could I just add to that explanaticm of the Minister . You 'll notice here that you have

Section 9 -Elections in Brandon Sdlool Division in 19 74 - and then parts 1 and 2 deal with the election and the tenn of off ice. Then in 19 75 , you have the sane thing , parts 1 and 2, except that it 's two years. NCM I think to add additional clar ity, we need • • •

May 27, 1974 MR. HANUSCHAK: I 'm sorry , 77 not 76. MR. McGILL: Tha t's right. We should have a

section , Elections in Brandcn School Division in 1977, which would beoone ll and it would read "notwi thstanding 89 any provision of any Act of the Legislature , elections in the year 977 and thereafter for school trustees in Brandon School Division No. 40 shall be held on the sane date on which elections for the cotmcil of The City of Brandon are held , and subsection 1). 9 <ll of The Public Schools Act app lies theret o. " And then the term of office fo llows . NON it si.nply spells out what may be taken for granted but not necessarily so.

So there is a rentmbering involved here that also involves the amand!rent that is about to be prqx:>sed by the governnen t. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, well I 'm not certain whether this

section should properly be ntmbered ll or 10 ( 3) --no , maybe it should be ll but I'l l be guided by I.egislati ve Cotmsel on that point . MR. BALKARAN: I suggest that the amand!rent prqx:>sed be nurrber sectioo ll , that the proposed amand!rent be mmbered 12 and existing

section ll be nurrbered 13. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman , pe:rll. aps if you back to 9 (1) and then \ve care to ll , we can deal with the amand!rent prcposed by Mr. McGill. MR. CHAIR1At'l: ltr. McGill. MR. HcGILL: I'd like to try this on legal cotms el. My first point amand!rent would be that

section 10 (3 ) be deleted , then that present

section ll becate secticn 13 , then that the follONing

section be added :i.mrrediately after 10 (2) and this would be Ele ctions in Brandon School Division in 1977 and thereaft er. And then you have ll (

l) as I have read it; then ll (2) term of office would follav that which would read : "The term of office of trustees elected pursuant to subsection (1) sha ll be 3 years , the sane as the term of office for cotmcillors in The City of Bran don." Then "Camen cerrent of term of office " would becare ll (3 ) nav and it wou ld: "The term of office elected pursuant to sections 9, 10 and ll" - this is really 10 (3) nON being read as ll (3 ) , "el ected pursuant to ,section 9, 10 and ll ·shall cx:mnence 14 days after the 4th Wednesday in Octd:ler of the year in which the election is hel d. " Right. Okay.

And then we would follON with the p:rqx>sal which en this anend!rent lists as No. ll would becare No. 12 as you menti oned. MR. CHAIRMAN: Could you give us a ropy of your amand!rents , Mr. McGill , ple ase. (Section 9 was read and passed .)

Section 10 (1) - pass ; (2) --p ass ; (3) -- MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes , subject to the rentmlbering that was prqx:>sed by the honourable nerrber to ••• his amand!rent . MR. McGILL: Yes, we' re all right up to that point . NCM 10 (3 ) be<XI!les ll (3) and we have to fit that in. And we emend 10 (3) as it nCM stands by adding "and ll" after 9 and 10. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes . Mr. Chairman , I have a -- how far have we procee ded? MR. CHAIRMAN : We carpleted 10 (2) . MR. McGILL: And I have written out ll (1) and (2) he re. MR. CHAIRMAN: ll (3 ) stands . HR. HANUSCHAK : Yes . MR. CHAIRMAN : ll (l) --pas s; ll (2) --pa ss ; 11 (3 ) as printed- pass ;

section ll- pass . Mr. Boyce. MR. OOYCE: Mr. Chairman, I would rove that Bill 36 be amended by adding thereto imnediately after the new mmbered

section ll thereof the follCMing

section : Other school divisions . 12 . Where a written request is received by the Minister fran a school board of a school division or district indicating that the school board is in favour of a 3 year term of office for its trustees , the minister may app rove the request and sections 9 and 10 app ly mutatis mutan dis . MR. HANUSCHAK: Hr.

Chaill!lan , after the bill was drafted , in fact after it was introduced for first reading , I was advised by the association of sdlool trustees and by some individual boards that they too may wish to tie in the election of their trustees with the election dates and the terms of office of muni cipal councillors . Brandon of course was one that did make a specific request to do that cx:mnencing this year. So therefore this

section which would make it optional at the request of the -- at the initiative of the boards to do as I have just indicated and if they should so choose to do then the provi sions of Sections 9 and 10 which really provide a nechanism for staggering the electicn dates to bring them in line with the election dates of nnmicipal cotmcillors and terms of office would app ly in those cases . MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Jorgenson. MR. JORGENSCN: I just want to raise a point of order. I' m not sure but I

90 May 27, 1974 (MR. JO� cont 'd) ••••• think I' m correct in saying that it is quite possible for nan-nenbers of the Ccmni.ttee to move an anendl!ent . If I am incorrect then the motion or the anendl!ents that have been proposed by the Menber for Brandon West who is not a nerber of this Ccmni ttee can be trans ferred to ll!{ nane just to make sure that technically we're not moving illegal motions . (Agreed) MR. OIAIRMAN: New

Section 12 --pa ss. Mr. Boyce. MR. OOYCE: Mr. <llai:cnan, I would move that

Section ll of Bill 36 as printed be renunbered as Sectioo 13. (Agreed) MR. OIAIIMIN: Preamle--p ass: Title--pass: Bill be reported . BILL 48 MR. OIAIIM\N: Bill 48. Mr. Boyce. MR. MILLER: Can we pass everything until we get to the new stuff oo

Section 125? --(Inte rjection) - Oh I see , I haven 't got the bill. MR. rn:AIRMAN: Bill 48,

Section 1. Mr. Miller. MR. MILLER: I propose that the new subsection 125.1 (

v) to 'lhe Liquor Control Act as set out in

Section 1 of Bill 48 be anen ded by striking out the words "ente rtainnent and perfonnance " in the first line thereof. MR. aJAIR-fJ\N: Second line . MR. MILLER: Re-anend. In the second line thereof . '!he anendl!ent is incorrectly typed. MR. OIAIRMAN: Mr. Boyce. MR. MILLE R: We' re not sl.WCJSed to move our own bills. Sarebody says we can 't move our own bills. MR. JORGENSCN: You can't anend them. MR. MILLER: I'm not arguing. I' m asking for an explanation . MR. OIAIIM'IN: Order plea se. Mr. Boyce. MR. OOYCE: Mr. Chairman , let the record show that this bill was introduced on ll!{ beh alf by the Mentler for St.

Vital. I would ask the legal counsel to explain this tedmic ality. MR. OIAIRMAN: Mr. Tallin. MR. TALLI N: Well they wanted to distinguish this licence that is for the Conventicn Cente fron the perfonnance and ente rtainnent licences whidl are issued to the Centennial Centm and to the Brandon Auditorium and so the Liquor camd.ssioo thought that if it was called a convention licence it would be sufficient because under the conventioo licence they could give whatever type of activity was going oo in the Convention Cente.

I was just eo they wouldn 't get confused with the type of licence that was being issued for essentially the entertainnent centers in the province . MR. MILLER: '!he Concert Hall you mean. MR. rn:AIRMAN: Mr. Spivak. MR. SPIVAK : What I think I' d like to understand is the actual substantive dlange that it really means� the kind of licence that the Convention Cenme will have and the kind of licence that the Centenni al Centre has. I mean in a substantive way what is the diff erence? MR. TALL IN.

Yes , the entertainment and perfo:cnance licences for the Concert Hall and for the 'lheatre Center and that sort of thing rela te to particular per fo:cnances or en tertainmen ts that are an there . If you want to get it for a can ventioo that might be using it you get a standard banquet penn it. This will be a special licence issued to the qJerators of the Convention Centre to cover any actin ties that they allow in the ir Convention Centre . A MEMBER: Just like a barquet pennit. MR. SPIVAK : Well then really this is like an open banquet pennit. MR. T ALLIN : Yes . MR.

SPIVAK: But in effect they have no more rights than any other facility would have that could awly in eadl particular case . In other words as a result of it they have a right of not having to apply for a licence in the same way that saneane using the Cent enn ial Centre would for a particular conven tion. But it does not give them any more rights than would be available to the Cent enn ial Centre on proper awlication . Is that correct? MR.

TALLIN : No, I doo 't think it does except that when you awly for a banquet pennit they can awly special conditioos to the baiGUE!t pennit whidJ. may be different for various buildings . MR. SPIVAK: But I just want to understand whether the intent is to give them •••

May 27, 1974 91 MR. TALL IN: .No. It 's just to allow them to sell liquor at activities held in the Convention Centre . MR. SPIVAK : Yes , I appreciate that. But it doesn 't give them any add itiooal rights. MR. TALL IN: No, than any other licensee. No. MR. OIAI�: Mr. Shennan . MR. SHERMAN : Through you to legal counsel , Mr. Olainnan. Is there such a licence as a "special convention licence" which is a licence that is specifi cally spelled out and cateqo rized and is different fran other kinds of licences or is this a new invention? MR.

TALL IN: No this is a new invention in exactly the same wey as the entertai rnnent and perfonnance licences that are allowed to be issued to the Theatre Cente r, the Concert Hall and the Brandon oenters were developed for that type of a facility. They are· special licences issued because the ordinary dining roan liquor licence and cocktail roan liquor licences don't fit to them, to their facilities , don't fit in their facilities . MR. SHE� : '!his licence would in effect be broader, would provide a broader base of pennissian, broader scope of activities than an ente rtairnnent and perfonnance licence would. MR.

TALL IN: Yes . As I understood Hr. Spivak's question it was as to the wey they served the liquor and I was looking to hours and that sort of thing. It would relieve them of the condition of having to have a resta urant to go along with a liquor licence , that's all. MR. SHER-!AN: But does it contain provisions such as hours of cperatian and that sort of thing or is that open-ended . MR. TALL IN: No, that's covered elsewhere in the Act. MR. OIAI�: 125 .1 (3) as amended-- pass ; (a) - pass ; (b) --pass ; Secti on 1 as amended--pas s;

Section 2-p ass ; Preanhle-pa ss ; Title--pass ; Bill be reported . BILL 49 MR. OIAIR-IAN: Bill 49 , the Child Welfare Act . Mr. lliller. HR. MILLER: Mr. Chainnan, there are a nurrber of anendnents . I would ask Mr. Balkaran to distribute them. Sare are stapled , there 's a single sheet as well. However the first amen drrent isn't until

Section 14 so if you want to start an the bill in the meantime you can . MR. OIAI� : Can we go page by page until we get to the first amendrre nt? Mr. Spivak. MR. SPIVAK : Mr. Chainnan, I think if we go up to

Section 12 and there will be an explanation required by the Honourable �r for Rhineland . So that I think that if we go up to that point and then --

Section 12 . MR. OIAIR-IAN: Is your amen drrent after that, Mr. lliller? MR. MILLER: Ye s, mine is after that. MR. OIAIR-IAN: (Pages 1 to 5 were read and passed) MR. SPIVAK : It' s on Page 6, Mr. Chainnan . MR. MILLER: What nunber? MR. OIAIR-11\N :

Section 12 iS Page 10. MR. SPIVAK: Oh I' m son:y , you'll fo:rgive me. I' m looking at the old Act and not at the bill. MR. MILLER:

Section 12 is an Page 10 . MR. CliAIR-11\N : (Pages 6 to 9 were read and passed) Page 10. ll (l) --pass; Mr. Brown. WOuld you use the microphone please . MR. Bln'm: On Page 11 , 12 ( 3) , there seems to be quite a change • • • MR. CliAIR-1AN: We haven 't got there yet . We 're still an page 10 , ll(l) . Page 10--pass . 12 (3 ) -- Mr. Brown. MR. BlU'IN: There seems to be quite a difference between the old Act and the new Act.

In the old Act that is 19 (4 ) and this is in regards to a horremaker and it seys over here , the hanemaker is not liable where the director or a society has placed a hcrnemaker in premises under subsection (1) the hcrnenaker is not liable for any damages caused by he r. Nothing is rel ated in the new Act on 12 ( 3) and I 'm WCI'ldering whether this is an oversight in the Act. MR. OIAI� : Mr. lliller. MR. MILLER: I'l l have to ask staff to respond to that one. I 'm not sure it 's an oversi ght. They are silrply providing in this what the harremaker can do and that they can live in the hare etc. , etc .

With regard to liability I' m not quite clear.

92 May 27, 1974 REVEREND GREENE : Mr. C1ai.rman • • • MR. CHAimAN: Will you identify yours elf for the record ple ase. MR. MILLER: '!be Reverend Greene, the Director of <lti.l.d Welfare. MR. CHAimAN : '!bank you . MR. GREENE : Mr.

Chairman, in regards to the liability to which the honou rable rnerrber referred it was discussed in the ccrrmittee responsible for the drafting and it was the opinion of legislative ex>tmSel at the t.ime that the liability question was not - it wasn 't necessary to place a special non- liability type of clause or wording because it gave pennissim to the haremaker to perfo llll various tasks within reasm and this was not necessary . It was not overlooked , it was looked at and felt it wasn't necessary at this point. MR. CHAIIM\N : Mr. Spivak . MR.

SPIVAK: In the previous Act what really �ed here is that the hanemaker was released fran liability for danages that are caused . NCM cbviously it 's a question of fact as to whether there is � liability or not if the person has exercised reasonable control and discipline over the child. That's teally the posi tim . U:!t rre put it in another wey . HCM many cla.irr5 were made with respect to 19 (4) of the previous Act. MR. GREENE : There were no cla.irr5, Mr. Chairman. A MEMBER: It's just deleted . MR. CHAIIMAN: Page ll-pass�

Section 13 -p ass. MR. MILLER: Hold it.

Section 14 . MR. HANUSOIAK: '!bat

Section 14 of Bill 49 be amended by adding thereto imnediately after the word "supervision" in the second line thereof the 'NOrds "pursuant to an order of the Director of Psychiatric Services ." MR. MILLER: '!bat was a deletion which should have been in originall y. MR. SPIVAK: Is that the sane as the previous Act? MR. MILLER: Yes it was. It was in the previous 1\ct. It should have been in this one . It was just an improper list. MR. CHAIRMAN: 14 as emended-p ass� 15 (1) -Mr . Hanuschak. MR. HANUSOIAK: 15 (1) , Mr. Cltainnan, that

Section 15 (1) of Bill 49 be amended by striking out the 'NOrds "having attained the age of majority" in the second line thereof. MR. rnAIRMAN: 15 (1) as amended-pass ; 15 (2) --pass; 15 (3) -pass � 15 (4) -p ass.

Section 15 as amended-p ass. (Section 16 was read and passed) Sectim 17 -Mr. Han usdlak. MR. HANUSOJAK: That

Section 17, Mr. Cltainnan, of Bill 49 be amended (

a) by mmbering the present

section as st:bsectian (1) thereof and (

b) by adding thereto imnediately thereafter renumered subsection (1) the follc:Ming subsection : "App rehension of child. " 17

(2) An officer of a child caring agency or of a family court or a peace officer who an reasonable and prd:>ably grounds believes that a child is in need of protective guardianship may app rehend the child without a warrant and take the child to a place of safety . MR. CHAIIM\N : 17 (1) -pass � 17 (2}- Mr. Miller. MR. MILLER: That was inadverten tly left out, Mr. Cltainnan. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Spivak . MR. SPIVAK: Is this in the previous Act. MR. MILLER: Yes . MR. CHAIRMAN: Sectim 17 as emended passed . Page 13 and Page 14 were read and passed . Page 15, Sections 22 , 23 and 24-p ass.

Section 25- MR. HANlEOIAK:

Section 25 , Mr. Chainnan, of Bill 49 be amended by add ing thereto i.Imediately after subsection 8 thereof the follc:Ming subsection : Examination for Discovery 25 (9) • Notwithstanding � other provision of this Act prior to the hearing of an app lication tmder this

section , the app licants or any of ther persons affected by the app lication has the right to an examinatim for discovery or to obtain particulars with respect to the app lication. And the rules of the Court of Queen 's Bench with respect to examination for discovery app lied thereto . MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Miller. MR. MILLE R: Mr. Chainnan, this amendrre nt cares about as a result of the representation made at Law llrrendrrents , if you recall the discussion ancngst the lawyers present about trial de novo et c. , etc . Legal eotmsel has written this anendrrent in order to rreet that particular requirerren t. MR.

PAULLEY' : Did the lawyers agree? MR. MILLE R: App arently they did. MR. BALKARAN: Mr. Cltainnan, I think it was Mr. Walsh who was present at the

May 27, 1974 (MR. BALI<ARAN cont'd } •• ••• Ccrnmittee at that tirre and there was I believe agre errent between himself and Mr. Greene and the Coomi ttee that a

section sudl as this if drafted would rreet their d::> jections and hence this emenare nt. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Boyce . 93 MR. BOYCE: Mr. Chairman, while it's 1!\Y intention to support the anen drrent neve rthe less I would caution my colleagues that one of the reasons there 's a separation in 1!\Y mind between family courts and Courts of Queen Bench and com1ty courts is because of the infonnali ty of the com1ty courts.

As I said I was going to support the emendrre nt but I would caution my colleagues who are not of legal pro fession to be vigilant about such encroa chrrents on the family courts m1less it is the intention of the legislature to dlange the fonnat in the future. I just want to put on the record my apprehension in this regard • MR. CHAIR-W\1: Mr. Spivak. MR. SPIVAK : Well I think that there 's two points to this.

Cne is the applicant has a right to an examination for discovery and then or to obtain particulars with respect to the application of the rules of the Court of Queen 's Bench with respect examination for discovery applied thereto . �o does he obtain the particulars fran and who are the body or who are the people who have to furnish accurate infonna tion to the applicant? You 're really talking about two different things here . MR. CHAIR-W\1: Mr. Green . MR. GREEN : Mr. Chainnan, let 's recall how the anendrre nt arose . Mr.

Walsh appe ared and said that you are taking one of the printipal positioos relative to the jurisprudence that where you have a trial before a family court judge you then have another trial before a com1ty court judge and what the Act was doing was saying we' re going to el iminate one of these two trials. You' re going to go to a family court judge and if there is an appe al it goes straight to the Court of Appe al and Mr. Walsh said that that would hurt very badly because the original infonnation that you could get fran the first trial would be missing.

So this enables than to have an examination for discovery which neans either the applicant or the respondent could ask the other side to appe ar and afford discovery. Either side, either the applicant or the respondent could demand particulars and if you are demanding particulars you are demanding particulars of presumably the person who is alleging that there is a neglected child and that would be the person who wishes to make the appreh ension . You don't generally demand particulars of the defend ent . So, Mr. Chainnan, Mr. Boyce raises a point about infonnality, etc.

Having suggested that this is a way to overcare Mr. Walsh's difficulty and I think that it probably is I think it should be m1derstood that in different parts of the province it 's not that easy . For instance if you had a family court hearing in let us say Lynn Lake it might not be very easy to get an examiner to conduct an examination for discovery . That is a prcblern but I guess it is no less a problan than requiring an appe al to a com1ty court judge in that area where you have to wait m1til they go on circuit etc . So this does give them the right to ask for such discovery and get it etc. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr.

Miller. MR. MilLER: Mr. Chainnan, the answers by Mr. Green - and I think Mr. Spivak concurs - are satisfactory. MR. CHAIR-W\1: 25 (9} --pass ; 25 as amended pass. (The remainder of Page 16 and Page 17 down to

Section 30 (2} were read and passed} Mr. Hanuschak. MR. HANU SOIAK: Mr. Chainnan, I wish to nnve that subsection 30 subsection (2} of Bill 49 be emended by adding thereto inrnediately after the word ''may" in the second line thereof the words "in the best interests of the child. " MR. CHAimAN : Amendment-p ass; 30 (2} as amended--pas s: Page 17-pa ss . 33 (1} -M r. Hanuschak. MR. HANUSOIAK : I wish to nnve that subsection 33 subsection (1} of Bill 49 be emended by adding thereto irnnediately before the word "guardian" in the last line thereof the word "pe rmanent" . MR.

CHAIRMAN: 33(1 } --pass ; 33 as amended-- pass . Sections 34 to 46 (3 } were read and passed} . MR. HANUSOIAK : Mr. Chainnan, I \..rish to nnve that subsection 46 subsection (4} of Bill 49 be emended by adding thereto irnnediately after the word "dlild" in the second line thereof the words "who is in the care and custody of the Director or child caring agency and" . MR. CHAIR-W!: 46 (4) - pass ; 46 as amended-- pass . (Sections 46 (5 } to 91 (1} were read and passed} •

94 May 27, 1974 MR. HANUSO!AK: I wish to 11011e that subsection 91 subsection (2) of Bill 49 be emended by striking out the word "four" in the fourth line thereof and substituting there for the figure "five" . MR. Cl!AIRMAN:

Section 91 (2) as amended pass . (Sections 99 to 99 (1) were read and passed) MR. HJ\NUSO!AK: Mr. Olainnan, I wish to 11011e that subsection 99 subsection (2) and subsection (3 ) of Bill 49 be struck out and the follcMing subsection substituted theref or: "suitability of app licant s" . 99 subsection (2) .

Upon receiving an app lication tmder subsection (1) , the dlild caring agency shall ascertain the suitability of the awlicants as adoptive parents and upon being satisfied that they are suitable it shall forward to the Director the relevant particulars respecting the app licants and the Director shall enter the narres and particulars of the app licants in a centrlll. registry to be maintained and kept by him. Placement subject to prior approval bf Director . 99 subsection (3 ) .

A child caring agency may place a child in the :tlcxre of the app licants for the adoption of child whose nanes have been entered in the central registry nentioned in subsection (2) but if the child is two years of age or yotmger it shall not be placed in a hate for adcption tmless the Director has previously approved the placement . MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Brown. MR. B:t=(MN: Mr. Chainnan , I wcnder if the Minister could give us a little further explanation oo these clauses . MR. Cl!AIRMAN: Mr. Miller . MR. MIILER: Mr.

Chainnan , I mentioned this 'When I introduced the bill. '!he anendnl:mt cares about as a result of requests fran IIIE!I'bers of the House because of the extreme shortage of children tmder the age of two and the large nunber of adoptive parents who wish to adopt children . Right now everything is handled through the children 's aid societies and therefore there is an inbalance in the length of time that peq>le have to wait depending oo where they happen to live . Even within Winnipeg if yo u're in the west end you may have to wait for as lll.ldl as two years

whereas sanebody living in another part of Winnipeg may have to wait a nudl shorter time because eadl children 's aid society does its own placements and there is no central registry as sudl. The suggestion here deals with those who are easy to place , that is there 's a long list waiting for them, under two years of age , and the sugges tion is that a central registry be established in order that no loog waiting list need develop and we get a I!Dre equitable system in the adoption pr ocess . MR. CliAIIM\N : Mr. Spivak . MR. SPIVAK: '!his is actually the sane amendment that was introduced at the time ••• MR.

MILLE R: A slight variation . MR. SPIVAK: Can you tell me where the variation is . MR. MILLE R: Yes . I think Mr. Balkaran added in 99 (3 ) - I forget the actual wording but it 's the first part: A child caring agency may place a dti.ld in the hate of the app licants for the adoption of the dlild. • • MR. BALKARAN: ••• was inadvertently renoved . MR. MILLE R: What they did is :renove the entire authority for placement f:ran anybody. MR. CliAIRMAN: Mr. Spi vak. MR.

SPIVAK: But the problem I see oo this -and I did not hear all the representations but I heard the first presentatioo and I'm faniliar with it f:ran exant>les of pec:ple who have been in oontact with my office and nertbers of the caucus who have dealt with it both openly in this Ccmnittee and in discussicn with the Minister.

The fact that there is a regis� in whidl the nanes are entered does not give any priority at all whatsoever to an app licant or nor does it necessarily guarantee as far as I can see that an app licant will be ccnsidered on the basis of the tWng of having awlied and the timing of having the app lication carpleted as far as eligibi lity is concerned . '!he difficulty is that 99 (2) in one sense is a bit of a meaningless clause although in practice it may not be. MR. MIILER: In practice it isn't. MR.

SPIVAK: But the point is if in practice it 's not going to be a meaningless clause then why dal't we take 99 (2) and then really put into the clause the wording that will app ly to the way in whidl this will operate. MR. CliAIRMAN: Mr. Miller . MR. MILLER: Mr. Chainnan, I think we have . We 've said this, that the

May 27 , 1974 95 (MR. MILLER con' t) • • • • • dlild caring agency , dti.ldren ' s aid society or whatever agency it is shall as it 's always done ascertain the suitability of the app licants . You kna.r there are many people who app ly and they are sirrply not considered suitable and they 're just not there . This process was ••• to go on within the region that's covered by that particular child agency . It's only after they 've been as certained to be suitable that their name is even considered and placed on a waiting list.

It's in order to thm cope with the problem of a waiting list which can 't be met and where there is as I say a two-year waiting list as corpared. to sane other area where there maybe is only a four-I!Ol'l.th waiting list because of an imbalance in where the children are because of the hospital in whidl they happen to be born. MR. OW:IMIN: Mr. Spivak . MR.

SPIVAK : The problem here is there 's nothing that indicates - having accepting everything the Minister has said - that it folla.rs necessarily that priority will be given to the length of time of an ar;plication . '!he fact that it's filed in a central registl:y means nothing because there 's nothing that flows f:tan it being filed except the recognition by the child caring agencies that in fact it has been filed and the discretion that they would exer cise to tl:y and see to it that people would be given prio rity. Really there 's no tee th to this sect ion. MR.

MILLER: Well the teeth are :inplied . '!he teeth are implied in this sense . It gives the Director the responsibi lity to place the children for adoption based on infonnation which he receives f:tan the dlildren ' s aid society . '!here is n't a timetable . It doesn 't say ten days or two weeks or anything of the kind . But it does give to the central office the ability to place the dti.ldren on a roore equitable basis than existed in the past. '!he same question you pose could have been posed all these years up to na.r only it was broken up in different areas .

NCM it's under one roof and at least the onus na.r is on the Director of OJ.ild Welfare to make sure that sane attempt is being made to be equitable . MR. SPIVAK : Mr. OJ.ainnan , I would say to the Honourable Minister that if we did not pass this

section , that is 99 (2) , it wouldn 't make any different one way or the other based on past practice and what he 's just said. I' ve heard sane body say that it's all right we can pass it but I don 't think anything flows fran it. There 's no onus really placed on anybody except for the filing in the central reg istl:y. MR. MILLER: I believe the Reverend Greene wants to say sanething on this . MR. OW:IMIN: Reverend Green e. MR. GREENE : Mr. <ll aillll an, if I could perhaps clar ify.

Presently what takes place is that we have five dlildren ' s aid societies within the province operating independently under their a-m dlarters and alth ough they have to abide by the statutory provi sions for child welfare whidl are vested in them there is a large degree of autonClfl¥ within their a-m areas . In add ition to that we have several other dti.ld caring services given to our regions where children 's aid societies do not function .

Na.r under that system eadl agency was responsible for its a-m placanents and the Director was merely informed after the fact which meant that the Director simply okayed it as a final after-the-fact cx:ndition but the de facto :..:p lacerent of the child was with the local agency in the local area.

NCM where many children were born in a given area the plaCEment pressures eod.sted because there 's only ten days under the statutes must elapse bef ore consent can be given for the child to be adopted <May by the rooth er and fourtea1 days elapses and the Health Services Camtission requires as quickly as possible for them to be out of the hospi tal. So there 's a kind of pressure that exists at that point . Therefore it's the simplest of all things for an agency to make an imnediate placement as quickly as possible .

Na.r this provision has drawn in under 99 (2) a provision for sonething whidl does not exist at the present time , namel y a register of all app licants . This means that since they are registered they will be dated. Therefore there will be a chronological listing . '!hen under 99 (3 ) since the placerent cann ot be made until the Director has previously app roved the placement we have in fact provided for placement to cane through central office rather than through the local agency .

And because of this , as the system functions in Alberta at the present time and through the Directors of <llild Welfare across Canada, has been throughly endors ed. It offers the possi bility of a roore equitable availabi lity of dti.ldren . But, Mr. Cll. aill!lan, we have to be ext :rerrely careful that we retain as one of the representatives pointed out to us, the fact that it is the welfare of the dti.ld that we're principally cx:ncerned with. This is not a marketing process for shunting

96 May 27, 1974 (MR. GREENE cont 'd ) ••••• babies arotmd . It is principally the welfare of the child we're concerned with. And so for this reason we hesitated to draft in or we declined to draft into the Act a specific pro vision that they nrust be placed dlralologic ally. We felt that would be too hard and fast and it would not allCM for sane of the variety and intangible values that enter into the process . MR. OIAIRMAN: Mr. Boyce . MR. OOYCE: I just had ooe qmstion perhaps through the Minister to Reverend Greene. Nothing in this would prevent you though fran -we ll a case.

A child is orphaned and it canes to your attention that relatives would be willing to adqrl: this child. 'lhey 're not on the register , they 're not listed. 'Ibis wouldn 't preclude you fran ••• MR. GREENE : 'lhat's quite correct . Yes . MR. OOYCE: This would still allCM you • • • MR. CHAIR>!AN: 99 (2) -pass� 99 (3) -pass � 99 as arre1ded pa ss . (Sections 99 (4) to 100 (1) were read and passedl

Section 100 (1) -Mr . Hanusdlak . MR. HANUSrnAK: 'lhat clause 100 subsecticn (2) subsection (

b) MR. SPIVAK: Well I think there 's sanething to be said oo 101. MR. HANUSrnAK : I 'm on 100 sub (2) • MR. BRXiN: Ye s, Page 34 . MR. CHAIR>!AN:

Section 100 sub (1) -Mr . Brown. MR. BRJWN: Mr. Chainnan, the wcw it seem; at the present tirre is that when an unmarri ed nother marries she has to relirquish her right to the child before and then awly for acklption . That neans that during this period she has absolutely no hold on her CMil child. I WCilder if the Minister could give us any further cx:mnents oo this. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Miller . MR. MILLER: No, Mr. Chainnan , I den ' t think it says that at all.

I think the IlDther certainly has the -it 's her child and there 's no question about it. 'Ibis sinply deals with a person who marr ies the parent of a child may , together with that new parent awly to a judge so that the new parent , one of the new parents , can then adopt the child. 'lhey're not relin::Jui shing any rights. 'lhey 're acx:JUiring them. MR. OIAIRMI\N: Mr. Boyce . MR. BOYCE: Mr.

Chainnan , not to disagree with It¥ Minister but having been through an adoptive procedure where I adcpted a stepchild there was a period of tine in which the child was a ward of the court as I understand it, that It¥ wife had to actually re-aOOpt her CMil child. NCM whether this is what is being raised at this particular tirre or not I den ' t kncM but nevertheless what Mr. Brown is suggesting was corr ect. Now whether the sane awlies to an illegitimate - you kncM I hate using that tenn "an illegitimate child" at all. MR. MILLE R: We chn't use it aeynn re. MR.

OOYCE: Nevertheless both of us had to adept: It¥ wife's child. MR. MILLER: The natural nother has custody of that child. We' re not talk ing about adq:>tion by parents . We' re not talking about the child who is given up for acklption. We're nCM talking about a case where there is a natural nother who has a child and then remarries. MR. OOYCE : 'lhat's right. I unders tand . Well the children 's aid society erred in their advice to ne in the process thrcugh which It¥ wife and I went , then they erred. But I would suggest that Mr.

Brown 's point , if they did not err at this tirre is well taken , that It¥ wife had to in fact, to her natural child who was in her custody a00pt her child in It¥ nane . MR. OIAIRMI\N: Mr. Shennan . MR. SHERMI\N : Mr. Chainnan , is that difficulty not accamodated by the clause which stipUlates if the child is living with the aHJlicants and is being cared for by them? [k)es that not remve the possibility of that kind of difficulty. The clause talks about the prescribed fonn necessacy to adq:!t a child if the child is living with the app licants and is being cared for by them .

I stand to be corrected but I would ask the Minister through you , Sir, whether it was possible for a child to be a ward of the courts and still be living with aHJlicants , app licants for acklption , and being cared for by them. If the child is living with app licants and being cared for by them presumably it 's not a ward of the court . It that not correct? MR. OIAIRMI\N: Mr. Miller . MR. MILLER: Well yes . In this particular case , under adoption by parents

May 27, 1974 97 (MR. MILLER oont ' d) • • • • • where the IOC>ther has the custody of the dlild and the child is living with the IOC>ther and the IOC>ther marries then the child can be adcpted or aCbpticm is entered into by the father and the child is living with the IOC>ther. You're quite right. '!his is the situation. Nav the question you're asking is, is it ooncei vable that the child could be a ward of the courts and still be living with the IOC>ther and yes, that is possible but they are still living with the IOC>ther. MR. CHAIR-mN : Would you use the micrcphcme . MR.

OOYCE: I 'm sorry to have to get in to debate with my Minister but in the particular case at point this was not the case. MR. MILLER: Maybe you were misinfo:nred. MR. BOYCE : Maybe the children 's aid society was misinfomed and misinfomed me. If Mr. Bravn raises the question then perhaps other pecple are misinfonned and the practices of the children 's aid society too . MR. MILLER : Well what does the law say? MR. OOYCE: Well this is what Mr. Bravn raises and I would like the questicm answered to clarify it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Mr. Bravn. MR. BRCMN: Mr.

Chainnan, this is precisely what I was going to ask for, if we could have sare clarification, maybe sane dlange of wording within the Act so that there is absolutely no doubt about what is meant. '!hat would be acceptable to us. MR. MILLER: Well I'v e asked legal coun sel here. MR. BALKARAN: I 'm not at all certain what the problem is that 's being raised, Mr. Chainnan. I wasn 't follavinq very closely. MR.

MILLER: Well the problem that's posed is that the IOC>ther although having custody of the dlild would have to give up custody of the child to the state since the child must bea:xre a ward of the state and then both would have to app ly for adopticm. MR. BALKARAN: I don't think so. I think tedlnic ally it's legally possible for the child to remain with the IOC>ther even though the child is declared to be a ward of the court. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Adam. MR. ADAM: Mr. Chainnan, my interpretaticm of the oonfusicm here lies with the words "t<XJether with that parent" and to me those words indic ate the natural parent .

In other words a perscm who marries the parent of a dlild may together with that parent - and that is where I think the oonf usicm is. '!hat "t<XJether with that parent" to me indi cates the natural pare nt. MR. CHAIR11\N : Mr. Miller. MR. MILLER: I could be the natural parent or it could be a parent of an adq>ted child. It could be an adop tive parent who has already legally adopte d that dlild. Either way. MR. CHAI�: Mr. Shennan . MR. SHE� : On that poin t. I was going to say that I don't think Mr. Adarn is right in that interpre tation of the tenn "p aren t". "Parent" doesn 't have to be a natural parent.

But to get back to the other issue it seens to me that Mr. Miller's answer to my questicm eliminates the problem because if a dlild can be living with appli cants for adq>tion and at the scme t.ille be a ward of the court well that eliminates - does that not el.iminate the problem? Even if you have a situation here, it wouldn' t mean that the IOC>ther had to give up custody because the Minister has said it's possible for a child to be living with a parent and still be a ward of a court. MR. CHAIRMI\N: Reverend Green e. MR.

GREENE : It may be that there is an aspect of this that is a bit of a questiro too and that is the fact that where saooone marries a single parent and wishes to adopt that both parents are making the app lication together. parent . MR. MILLER: '!hat could happe n, yes. But the dlild still remains with the MR. CHAIR-mN: Does that clarify the situation, Mr. Bravn? MR. CHAIRMAN : Mr. Adarn. MR.

ADIIM : It doesn't clarify in rny mind because when you talk about the pare nt of a child "t<XJether with that parent " the perscm marrying that perscm with a dlild, we understand that that perscm would have to adopt the child but the mother shouldn 't have to or vice versa, a widower for instance. MR. MILLER: �vell in a sense the mother re-adopts the child because of the new relationship between a new fatner and herself . MR. CHAIR-11

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-1-la3
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 1st hansardpdf la3.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	f0712913aae09a2209f2e5f7df62fcd484c667c5

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