MG-8048 Fourth Session • Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 41 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XLII No.15 ·1 :30 p.m., WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 16 , 19 92 ISSN 0542-5492 Printed by the Office of the QUBBn 's Printer, ProvifiCB of ManitobB

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim , Hon. EVANS, Ciif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROGAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant CONSTITUENCY Osbome Thompson Welling ton River Heigh ts Radisson The Maples Kildonan Ste .

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arth ur-Virden St einbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Crescentwood Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows St urgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossm ere Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcon a Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Rin Ron La Verendrye Fort Garry St.

Johns Swan River Rupertsland PARTY liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

603 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA VVednesday, Decernber16 ,1 992 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Ms. Ros ann Wowchuk (S wan River): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of N. Kyrluk, W. Atamanchuk, Jim Taylor and others requesting the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mrs. Mcinto sh) to use existing department resources to conduct a major investigation of gas prices in rural and northern Manitoba and to meet with the suppliers to discuss what can be done to reduce gas prices in those areas. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mr.

Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable memb er for Osborne (Mr. Alcock). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] To the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba

WHEREAS each year smoke from stubble burning descends upon the province of Manitoba; and WHE REAS the Parents Supp ort Group of Children with Asthma has long criticized the harmful effects of stu bble burning; and WHER EAS the smoke caused from stubble burning is not healthy for the general public and tends to aggravate the problems of asthma sufferers and people with chronic lung problems; and

WHEREAS altern ative practices to stubble burning are necessitated by the fact that the smoke can place some people in life- threatening situations; and WHERE AS the 1987 Clean Environment Commi ssion Rep ort on Publi c Hearings, "I nvestigation of Smoke Problems from Agriculture Crop Residue and Peatland Burning, " contained the recomme ndation that a review of the crop residue burning situation be conducted in five years tim e, including a re-exami nation of the necessity for legislated reg ulatory control .

THEREFORE your petitio ners humbly pray that the Legislative Assemb ly will urge the government of Manitoba to pass the necessary legislation/regulations which will restrict stubble burning in the province of Manitoba. • (1335) *** Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] The petition of the undersigned citi zens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the provincial government has not implem ented the major recomm endation of the Kopstein report which was to bring in no-fault auto insurance; and

WHEREAS over four years ago, the Kopstein report found that if Manitoba adopted no-fault auto insurance it could have save d $40 million; and

WHEREAS over two years ago, a second government report found that over $63 million could be saved if Manitoba adopted the Quebec plan of no-fault auto insurance; and

WHEREAS the provincial cabinet this year after being extensi vely lobbied , rejected a business plan that would have saved Manitoba motorists a further $2 million; and

WHEREAS the rates for auto insurance are now being raised on average by 9.5 percent to 14.5 percent when the inflation is less than 1.3 percent making this the highest actual increase in the history of this province; and

WHEREAS one in five car drivers in this province will now face increases of 13.5 percent; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has not implem ented other aspects ofthe impleme ntation of the Kopstein report. WHEREFORE your pet itioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be

604 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 16, 1992 pleased to request the Minister responsible for MPIC to consider implementing no-fault auto insurance, and bringing in other recommendations of the Kopstein report that the government has delayed acting on. *** Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for the Maples (Mr. Cheema). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House, and it complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed) The petition of the undersigned residents of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the principles of health care, namely the universality and comprehensiveness, should apply to the Pharmacare program; and WHE REAS the Pharm acare program's effectiveness is being eroded; and

WHEREAS in the most recent round of delisting of pharmaceuticals, approximately 200 have been delisted by the government of Manitoba; and WHE REAS the strict submission deadline for Pharm acar e rece ip ts does not take in to consideration extenu ating circumstances which may have affected some people; and

WHEREAS pharmaceutical refunds often take six weeks to reach people; and

WHEREAS a health "smart card" would provide information to reduce the risk of ordering drugs which interact or are ineffective, could elim inate "double prescr ibing," and could also be used to purchase pharmaceuticals on the Pharmacare program, thereby easing the cash burden on purchasers. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly urge the government of Manitoba to consider t aking the necessary steps to reform the Pharmacare system to maintain its comprehensive and universal nature, and to implement the use of a health "smart card." *** Mr.

Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member fo r Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House, and it complies with the rules.

Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] To the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba WHER EAS each year smoke from stubble burning descends upon the province of Manitoba; and WHERE AS the Parents Supp ort Group of Children with Asthma has long criticized the harmful effects of stu bble burning; and WHE REAS the smoke caused from stubble burning is not healthy for the general public and tends to aggravate the problems of asthma sufferers and people with chronic lung problems; and WHE REAS alternative practices to stubble burning are necessitated by the fact that the smoke can place some people in life -threate ning situations; and WHERE AS the 1987 Clean Environme nt Comm ission Rep ort on Pub lic Hearings, "I nvestigation of Smoke Problems from Agriculture Crop Residue and Peatland Burning," contained the recommendation that a revi ew of the crop residue burning situation be conduct ed in five years' time, including a re-exami nation of the necessity for legislated regulatory control.

THEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Asse mbly will urge the governmen t of Manitoba to pass the necessary legislation/regulations which will restrict stubble burning in the province of Manitoba. TABUNG OF REPORTS Mr. Speaker: I am pleased to table the report of the Chief Electoral Off icer on The Election Finances Act 1991. Also, I am tabling the Ombudsman's Annual Report dated 1991. Hon. Darren Praznlk (Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Annual Report for 1991-92 of the Department of Labour. Hon. James Downey ( .. nlster of Energy and .. nes): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to table the Manitoba Energy Authority T enth Annual Report for the year ended March 31, 1992, together with the Financial State ments for the 15 months ended June 30, 1992. Hon. Unda Mcintosh (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Speaker , I would like to table the Report on the Administration of the Rent Regulation Program for the fi scal year ended March 31, 1992. As well, I would like to table the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission 69th Annual Report.

December 16, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 605 Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to table the Annual Report for 1991 for The Freedom of Information Act, the Annual Report 1991-92 for the Manitoba Lotte ries Foundation and the First Quarte r and Second Quarter Reports for the period of April till September 1992 for the Manitoba Lott eries Foundati on. Hon. Harry Enns (M inister of Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker, I would like to on this occasion now table the annual report of Venture Manitoba Tours Ltd .

Financial State men ts as at March 31, 1992 and 1991, together with the Auditor's Report. Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table two reports: first, the Report of the Agricultural Producers' Organization Certification Agency respecti ng the determination of a certified organization; and secondly, a report from the same age ncy respec ting the maximum membership fee of the certified organization. •

(1340) Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr. Speak er, I would like to table the Annual Report '91-92 of the Fiscal Sta bilization Fund, the report under the Financial Admini stration Act Relating to Suppleme ntary Loan and Guarantee Authority and the 1991-92 Annual Report of The Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable memb ers to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon 15 visitors from the Constable Development Program. They are under the direction of Mr. Brian Norris.

They are guests of the honourable Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae). Also, this afternoon we have 18 adults from the English Language Program from the William Avenue Training School. They are under the director of Alice Landry. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable memb er for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes). On behalf of all mem bers, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Immigrant Investor Fund Application Approval Process Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Prem ier (Mr. Filmon).

Yester day, in answers to questions, and in past occasions on questions we have posed to the gove rnment on the Immigrant Investor fund, the gove rnment has portrayed itself as rem oved from the process, distant from the process, kind of a technical bystander to the process, and has named the federal government and of ficials in their own department as the key decision makers in the process. I would like to ask the Premier dir ectly: Are ministers of his government directly involved in various projects that are before the federal gove rnment for immigrant investment projects for the province of Manitoba? Hon.

Eric Stefanson {Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, yesterday in some detai l, both inside and outside of this House, I outlined the procedure for the approval of Immigrant Investor Programs, whether they are a project specific fund or a syndicated fund. As I outlined yester day, the fund request originally came in to the pro vincial government. All of the necessary information is attac hed, dr aft prospectuses, financial information, business plans and so on. Our ad ministration reviews that.

If they make a positive recommendation, that then goes forward to the federal government, then they do their analysis and they have the final authority to decide whether or not a fund is in fact approved or not appr ov ed. They can either accept the recom mendation and approve it or they have the authority to reject it, because they have all of the ultimate clout in terms of the issuing of the visas and the necessary regulations and control on the ultimate plan. So we make a recom men dation; if it is positive that is the process.

If it is negative, it goes back into the system and the people making the application deal with any concerns. If they can address them, they can bring it forward again. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the minister and the Prem ier did not answer the question again, as they did not answer on six occasions yester day.

606 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 16, 1992 Immigrant Investor Fund Application Approval Process Mr. Gary Doer {Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I have a copy of the letter from one Mr. Ernst, the minister responsible for Industry, Trade and Tourism , to one Ho nour able Barb ara McDougall, on February 6, 1991, wherein the minister asks the federal government, and I would quote, the Ott awa quest in Lakeview's eligibility to conti nue in the program relative to $35 million size guideline.

I might mention that I wrote to you on June 6 recommending that Lakeview be perm itted to continue in the program, and was pleased to learn in September follow ing extensive negotiations with your officials, the new conf orming program was approved. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier: What is the involvement of his cabinet ministers in the Immigrant Investor fund. He is carbon copied on this letter. This letter was written and carbon copied to the Premier before he answered questions in the House in his own Estimates saying, oh, we are not involved in this, the cabinet is not involved .

I would like to know the direct political involvement of the Conservative gove rnment. Hon. Gary Fllmon {Premier): Mr. Speaker, the member opposite seems not to want to unde rstand or listen to the response of the Mi nister of Indu stry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Stefans on). He said precisely that. He said it is reviewed by the department as to the job creation benefits for the Manitoba economy and based on that a recommendation is made to Ott awa, and they give the final approval. Nothing is different in the letter that he put forward and nothing is different in what has been said by the minister or myself.

Immigrant Investor Fund Review Terms of Reference Mr. Gary Doer {Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, a final question to the Premier. Mr. Speaker, the government has had two different reviews that they have announced publicly and now they are on their third review, a so-called internal audit, that they have commissioned under the Immigrant Investor fund. We would like those terms of reference tabled . Do the terms of reference include the political decision making in the Rlmon government at the deputy minister level and the ministerial level? Has that audit been completed yet?

Has it been forwarded to the Attorney General's department yet, and will we see an expanded terms of reference dealing with the political involvement of the Rlmon gove rnment in this process? •

(1345) Hon. Eric Stefanson {J.Inlster of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I outlined yesterday in this House, the current audit that is in process by an independent public accounting firm , a reputable firm here in Winnipeg Is in the process of that audit. I also outlined very clearly that we are expecting the results of that audit very shortly. When the recommendations are received by me, I definitely Intend to make them public, and we intend to act on those recomme ndations.

So I have no difficulty whatsoeve r Indicating to this House, to the Leader of the Opposition, that those recomme ndations will become public and will be matters that will be addressed by this government. But I do take excep tion, Mr. Speak er, to once again the approach and style of the Leader of the Opposition in terms of the kinds of innuendoes and suggestions he makes about political interference in a program that we have put in place regulations and guidelines to add ress when it was introduced in 1986 when the Leader of the Opposition was part of a government when it was introduced.

They did not bring in any rules and regulations to deal with it. They did not show any concern about this particular program. We put in the regulations to address pote ntial problems. Health care System Reform Dr. Connie Curran Contract Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels {S t. Johns): Mr.

Speaker, accor ding to Dec ember 7 documents entitled Health Reform Update in which very specific details are enclosed about this Minister of Health's contract and contractual arrangements with one person by the name of Connie Curran with a firm called APM Consultants , according to documen ts provided by this own minister, the goal of APM associates is to help clients create the best market positions and defensible competitive advanta ges for their clients and later on in the document says, we will do whatev er it takes for our clients.

I would like to ask the Minister of Health: What is the value of the contract with Connie Curran and APM Consultants? Will he table the contract with

December 16, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 607 this firm and tell us why a Manitoban or Canadian organization was not qualified to assist this gove rnment on health care reform issues? Hon. Donald Orchard {Mnlster of Health): Mr. Speak er, I am quite pleased my honourable friend is posing this ques tion. The individual who is referenced in my honourable friend's question is Dr. Connie Curran who by all reports is probably the pre-eminent nursing specialist in North America, Sir. Now, Mr. Speaker, I simply want to tell my honourable friend how the province fir st came to know of Dr.

Curran and her credibil ity in the nursing profession in the United States as well as across Canada. That was because the nurses of Canada in planning for the first ever national nursing symposium proposed by myself to my colleagues the Health ministers and hosted in Winnipeg in November of 1990, those nurses from across Canada asked Dr. Cur ran to present as the pre-eminent expert in nursing in North America. It is nurses in Manitoba and across Canada who want Connie Curran to share her wealth of expertise with us in our health care system, not vice versa. Mr.

Speak er, in this case , I have accepted the advice of the nurses, whether they be union nurses, professional association nurses or nurses working in the fa cilities to bring Connie Curran in to help us plan nursing's future in Manitoba. I have taken the nursing ad vice on this issue, Sir. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Minister of Health why he has em ployed an American firm located in Chicago, Ill inois, to play a central role, not just to provide advice on nursing issues, but to provide a central, integral role to this ministe r's health care reform endeavours.

What are the details of this contract, which include 16 dem onstration site projects to be selec ted by January 4, 1993? Could the mi nister tell us precisely the nature of the contract, how much it is worth and name the 16 demons tration projects that the minister has selected- Mr. Speaker: Order, please . *

(1350) Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, I will provide my honourable friend with those det ails when they are concluded because that is exactly the nature of Dr. Curran's presence in Manitoba, to work with MARN, MNU, the nursing vice-presidents and nurses in Manitoba to det ermine the extent of her involve ment in those dem onstration projects, which, Sir, enhance the role of nursing in a re formed health care system. I sense from my honourable friend's question (

a) that there is something the matter with Dr. Curran, not because of the knowledge she can bring, but by the fact that she is American, and I find that offe nsive. I further find it offensive that my honourable friend the New Democratic Health care critic would find fault with a rec omme nda tio n and with an endors ement by nurses in Manitoba that Dr. Connie Curran assist us in planning health care reform . Why is she against that desire by nurses in Manitoba, Sir? Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: My question, Mr.

Speaker, is why this government has chosen to work very closely with a firm whose bottom line is to create competitive advantage to turn our hospital system in to a ma rke t-d riven syste m. It is the Americanization of our system, and I want to ask the Minister of Health why he has chosen to do this major consulti ng work with an American firm when in fact the United States admini strative costs are that much higher than in Canada. Why has he not chosen to work with Canadians who have expertise in this- Mr. Speaker: Order, please . Mr.

Orchard: Sir, for the third time, I want to indic ate to my honourable friend that despite the fact that the memb er for St. Johns, as the New Democratic Party Health critic, does not belie ve Dr.

Curran has the credentials to provide ad vice, to provide us with information on how nursing's role can be enhanced in the Canadian health care syste m, in the Manitoba reformed health care system in particular, I want to repeat to my honourable friend so it becomes obviously clear that the nursing professionals in Manitoba first of all chose, in preparation for the first ever national symposium on nursing, hosted in Winnipeg in November of 1990, to have Dr. Curran as one of the lead speakers. From that, they were so impressed with her contribution that they are wanting us to work with her. Nurses want that.

The NDP- Mr. Speaker: Order, please . Education System Reform Advisory Board Ms. Avis Gray {Crescentwood): Mr. Speaker, te achers, stud ents, parents and school trustees are

608 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 16, 1992 anxious that there be educational reform in Manitoba, but these same people are apprehensive as well. So far, educational reform has amounted to a vague sentence in a vague throne speech. The minister does have a resource available to her; The Education Ad min istration Act establishes an advisory board and mandates it to meet every two months. Can the minister tell this House why the advisory board has not met since 1989, and why is the law being ignored? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr.

Speaker, yes, there is an advisory board which may be active for the minister. Howe ver, I think the im portant point for me to make to my honourable friend and to Manitobans is that a wide variety of Manitobans have wanted to be involved in the educational reform process and in particular, parents have asked to be a part of that process as well as educational stakeholders, business, indus try and labour, and so our reform process will make sure and include all Manitobans who have expressed this interest. Framework Tabling Request Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood): Mr.

Speaker, can the minister then table a document which will outline the framework as to what this educational reform will consist of, and will she be using such est ablished groups as the advisory boards ? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (r.tnlster of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, our process of reform is one in which some very central ideas have been put forward in the throne speech.

However, one thing that Manitobans and particularly stake holders in education including business, indus try , labour and parents have asked is that they be in on the details of the process and that a process not then be imposed upon them, a fully developed process then given to Manitobans. Instead they have asked to be a part of the process. Ms. Gray: Mr. Speak er, member s of The Manitoba Teachers' Society, school trustees, and other organizations do not feel that the throne speech, that document, gives them enough information on educational reform .

Is the Minister today prepared to table a document which will outline to these groups what he r framework is, the reform , how it will take place, so that in fact these people can then give their ideas to the minister so that the process will be a success, which is the goal for all- *

(1355) Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speak er, of course, a meeting has already taken place. A meeting took place the day after the throne speech with represen tative members of all of those organizations to make sure that those organizations had a chance to begin an exchange of ideas and a flow of ideas to begin to answer questions, put questions on the table as they arose . So, Mr. Speaker, I think it is very important for the member to know that process of consultation has already begun and began immediately follow ing the throne speech.

Labour Force Development Minister's Comments Ms.JeanFrlesen(Wolseley): Mr.Speaker, l want to ask the Minister of Education why she misled the House on December 3, when she explicitly denied, follo wing the Quebec approach to a Labour Force Development Board, where education and equity are not at the table and wher e business outnum bers labour by two to one. I want to table, Mr.

Speake r, a memo of October 30 where the Deputy Minister of Education and Training committed to make an interim agreement with Ottawa to be , quote, and I am quoting: replaced during its term by a new arrangement similar to the te rms of the Canada-Quebec arrangement. Mr. Speaker, whom do we believe, the minister in the House or her deputy minister acting with Ottawa? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (r.tnlster of Education and Training): Mr.

Speaker, an important feature that Quebec has been able to integrate into their model is in fact that they had a great deal of control in the setting up of the boards, the Quebec provincial board , and what Manitoba has wanted is to make sure that Manitoba also has the same input both with the national board and with the Gove rnmen t of Canada, two distinct groups, in the setting up of our process for Manitoba.

December1 6, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 609 Government Commitment Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, will the minister now, in the midst of the worst recession since the 1930s, make a commitment to developing a labour force development agreement with Ottawa that has equal participation of labour, business, education and equity groups? It has been three years, Mr. Speaker, that this gove rnment has given lost years to Manitobans. Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr.

Speaker, I can tell the member that, very personally as minister, I have been working very hard over this past week to bring some closure to the signing of that doc ument. I look forward to be able to sign it in the near future. Within that document, I look for repre sentation of Manitobans on the board , but the member seems to have not completely understood that the signing of the document is one part and the setting up of the board is done in co-ordination with the Canada Labour Force Development Board. That is somewhat different. Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation No-Fault Insurance Mr.

Leon ard Evans (Br andon East): Mr. Speaker, I have a qu estion for the minister responsible for increasing Autopac rates in Manitoba. Mr. Speak er, the past year, MPIC lost over $25 million, largely as a result of increases in bodily injury claims of approximately $33 million. Before we sit again next year, there will be thousands of very unhappy Manitobans fac ing heavy increases in their Autopac prem iums.

Will this minister finally change his position and take ste ps now to implement the no fault system strongly recom mended by Judge Kopstein, which offers MPIC the greatest opportunity to reduce costs and also increase benefits? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Act): Mr. Speaker, let the member not leave the impression on the record that he did not involve politically the setting of the rates back four years ago. That has now been turned over to the Public Utilities Board, so it is done in a public fa shion.

The losses occurred as a result of bodily injury claims and a rather dramatic increase in hailstorm and accidents as a result of very treacherous driving conditions, but the major portion of that loss is driven by increased bodily injury claims. I suggest that the memb er also might wonder how happy those people who received those settlements would be if they were unavailable. *

(1400) Agents' Fees Mr. Leonard Evans (B randon East): Mr. Speak er, regrettab ly, the minister did not address the question. The Kopste in report recom mendation has to be implemen ted. When are we going to get some acti on from this ministe r? Let me ask him though specifically-one small step: Will this minister reconsider and now allow MPIC to cap insurance brokers' fees at 3 percent and save at least a million dollars in Autopac hikes? How about some tangible- Mr. Speaker: Orde r, please. Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister charged with the administra tion of The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Act): The second bench is going to applaud that. Mr. Speak er, the corporati on is actively pursuing all avenues of contai ning its costs.

When we compare the costs across the country and the motorists of this province look at the relati onship between Autopac insurance and the cost of insurance in many of the other jurisdictions, we are still within a reasonably competitive range, but the fact is, the corporation Is moving into the rate-setti ng period for the coming year, and they will be taking measures to contain their costs. Agassiz Youth Centre Sex Offender Program Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice . Mr.

Speaker, approximately three weeks ago, the Department of Justice effective ly cancelled the sex offe nder program at Agassiz Youth Centre in Portage Ia Prairie. Approx imately 25 young of fenders were in that program, which was an intensive 24-hours-a-day program for sexually deviant youth who had been sentenced by judges to both open and secure custody but to a sex offender program. Mr. Speaker, my questi on: Given that the only other sex offender program is at Manitoba Youth

610 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 16, 1992 Centre, which is presently overcapacit ated and has too many to handle in that program, where are the 24 young offe nders, who have already been assessed as requiring that therapy, going to get the therapy now that the program has been cancelled at Agassiz Youth Centre in Portage Ia Prairie? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): As usual, Mr. Speak er, with a question of this nature and coming from where it is, I shall ascertain the veracity of the

preamble to the honourable membe r's question . Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, I am sure the people of Portage Ia Prairie and, indeed, mem bers of this House would appreciate a substantive answer to that question about 24 young offe nders.

In any event, let me ask the minister if he has received any assu rance or opinion from the federal Solicitor Gen eral responsible for the Young Offe nders Act as to whether or not he is even legally allowed to have both open and secure custody offenders in the same cottage now thatthat program has been cancelled, because the only way that they were allowed to do that previously was because they had the program. Now that there is no program, there is no distinction in how those offe nders are being treated in that cottage . Yet, the judge has- Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

The honourable member has put his quest ion. Mr. McCrae: It is completely understandable that the honourable member would like to have an answer to a question in this regard, because the issue of vi olent of fender s is one that this gove rnment views very seriously. The honourable member knows that the federal corrections people , supported by myself, have taken a position that violent offenders ought to be treated somewhat differently from the other kind of offenders, the property offenders.

So I think it is quite consistent with this government's program respecting zero tole rance, not only in relation to violence generally, but sexual violence as well. So the honourable member's question may indeed have some elements of truth in it, and if it does, then I will be pleased to ascerta in that and answer the honourable memb er's question . Mr. Edwards: My final question for the minister, Mr. Speaker. Prior to cancelling the program at Portage Ia Prairie at Agassiz Youth Centre , did the minister make any plans to deal with these 24 young offe nders who have been assessed as requiring therapy?

Are there any plans to give them the therapy they need? Mr. McCrae: This question will also be answered when I answer the other ones, Mr. Speaker. Indigenous Women's Collective Funding Mr. Ge orge Hlckes {P oint Do uglas): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister for Native Affairs. On August 27 of 1991 , the minister announced that his government was going to be providing $70,000 in funding to the Indigenous Women's Collective.

The minister stated his government's commitment that quote, native people and native women especially should have an organization that serves as an effective unifying force within the community. Is this government still committed to this objective of providing Manitoba's aboriginal women with the means to maintain effective organizations? Hon. James Downey {Minister responsible for NaUve Affairs): Mr. Speaker, unlike the New Democr atic Party that preceded us, where they got absolutely nothing, we, in the budgetary process, will give fair consideration to all groups. Mr. Hlckes: Mr.

Speaker , that fair consideration that the minister is stati ng, I will table a letter that he has writt en to the organization which clearly shows that their funding is in jeopar dy. Mr. Speaker, when you announce a program speaking to the future on one hand and then on the other hand start cutt ing off the funding-eo could the Minister of Native Affairs confirm to the House that the full funding will be there for the organization ? Mr. Downey: Mr.

Speaker, I am sure the member would appreciate there is a process that has to be gone through as it relates to the developm ent of budgets for next year's expenditures, and details of those decisions will be answered when it comes to the Estimates process of next year. Mr. Speaker, I think it is fair that this gove rnment approached it in an open and honest way, that we have got a situation where our revenues basically have not increased for the Province of Manitoba.

December 16, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 611 We have taken a sound policy decision not to raise personal income tax and not to raise the sales tax . Now if the opposition are advoca ting raising all tax es, putting more pressure on the earners of our wealth, then we will let them advocate that policy. Gross Revenue Insurance Plan Interest Charges Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr.

Speaker, as we approach the end of this year, farmers conti nue to be in difficult financial straits in this province, yet this Minister of Agriculture is still charging farmers over 8 percent on unpaid prem iums on GRIP and crop insurance even while this minister continues to owe those same farmers millions of dollars in initial GRIP payments, and he is not paying interest on those unpaid GRIP payments that are coming to the farmer.

I want to ask the Minister of Agriculture: Will he now do the right thing, stop this insensitivity and unfairness by this minister and immediately stop charging interest to these farmers while he continues to owe them millions of dollars in GRIP payments? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speak er, that member fails to realize we are talking about a joint federal- provincial program. Two or three months ago, I wrote the federal mi nister if we could have a consideration for not charging interest during this period of time. He reported back, said no. Mr.

Plohman: This minister cannot get any results with the federal government and for himself. I want to ask this minister: Will he now ensure that this GRIP payment is made immediately so that this interest charge that he is making on farmers right now will not eat away as it is doing right now on these GRIP paymen ts that are coming to farmers. Mr. Findlay: Mr. Speaker, it is rather interes ting. This member spoke against GRIP; he hated GRIP. He said it is no good, the farmers of Manitoba do not want it, and now all of a sudden he says it is the best thing since sliced bread . It is rather interes ting.

Manitoba farmers know how good this program is. Those farmers in the area who were affected , particularly north of No.1 Highway, with conditions like early frost, are really going to receive substantial benefits from revenue insurance. The cheques have started to go into the mail early this week if not late last week. Those cheques, those interim cheques are on the way, and they will be receiving many of them before the end of this year. Sunday Shopping Public Hearings Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Yesterday we saw this gove rnment filibuster their own bill, their Sund ay shopping bill. Mr.

Speaker, ru ral communities, Chambers of Commerce, councillors across the province are against this bill, but this gove rnmen t is absolute ly insensitive to the impacts of it on rural Manitoba. I want to ask the minister respons ible: Are we going to have a vote on this bill to day? Is this government going to proceed to public hearings across rural Manitoba? Is this govemment- Mr. Speaker: Order, please . * (141 0) Point of Order Hon. Jim Ernst (Acting Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, the question is out of or der.

The question is a matter of House business; it will be dealt with by House leaders later toda y. Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): If the minister is raising this as a point of order, Mr. Speak er, the minister should be aware that it is quite common to ask question s. In fact, we have been asking, since this bill was tab led, whether this government would have the courage to take this bill to public hearings throughout the province of Manitoba to listen to all Manitobans. It is entirely in order to ask that. Mr.

Speaker: We have consistently said that matters dealing with House business should be dealt with by House lea ders, so I would ask the honourable member for Swan River to rephrase her question. *** Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the minister responsible for the legislation on Sunday shopping whether or not we are going to have public hearings in rural Manitoba to look at the impacts of this bill on the rural communities and whether or not this government will consider using the Rural Development Institute to do a study on what the impacts of this legislation are.

612 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 16, 1992 Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): In response to the question, Mr. Speaker, that bill will be called later today, I understand. We have a process here, as part of our parliamen tary process, in terms of committ ees which we have , amongst the most open process in all of Canada for individual Manitobans to have an opportuni ty to appear at committee in presence or in writing in terms of putting forth their position. Certainly that is a p art of a process that will be followed. As the Minister of Urban Affa irs (Mr.

Ernst) has outlined, this matter will be dealt with further in the day, I am sure. Unemployed Help Centre Funding Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, in the throne speech only a few short weeks ago, the government made no recognition of the serious situation in terms of jobs in this province. Since that time, we have had the action of the federal government on unemp loyment insurance, which according to statistics we have obtai ned, will result in 183 Manitoba families a week being cut off unemployment insurance because of the changes in regulations, 183 families.

I would like to ask the First Minister whether he has raised this matter with the federal government in this horrendous atta ck on working people, more specifically, whether he will now reins tate , as both opposition parties have been saying repeatedly for the last three years, th e funding for the unem ployed help centres, to at least have someone in there fighting on behalf of working Manitobans. Hon.

Gary Fllmon (Premier): Even since the throne speech, there have been a number of announ cemen ts that have been pos itive announcem ents with respect to job creation in Manitoba, the moving of Utlas from Toronto to Winnipeg, with 45 high-tech jobs, the establishment of a power engineering centre by Black and Veatch in Winnipeg, another minimum of 45 and up to 1 00 additional high-tech job s for engineers and technologis ts and so on, announcem ents being made, of course, that our growth for 1992, according to the Conference Board, will be at 2.2 percent, tied for second best in the country, Mr.

Speaker, indication that there wiii- Mr. Speaker: Order, please . Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I realize that the gove rnment is allowed to filibu ste r its own bills, but it is not allowed to fili buster Question Period. I asked a specific question about unem ployment insurance and about the government reinstating unem ployed help centre funding. I would appreciate it if the Premier would answer the question. Hon. Darren Praznlk (Dep uty Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, on the same point of order, the First Minister was endeavouring to provide the information which the member for Thompson appeared to have wanted and certainly should have the opportunity to provide a full response to the question . One should practice what they preach, and mem bers opposite are known for extremely lengthy

preamble s even on second and thir d questions. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised, Beauchesne's 41 6(1 ): "A Member may put a question but has no right to insist upon an answer. " The honourable First Minister, to finish with his response. * * * Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, as I indi cated in response to the suggestion of the member opposite that there was nothing in the throne speech or since on jobs, that in fact the throne spee ch talks about the increase in exports from Manitoba, double-digit rates this year versus last year. All of those expor ts represent jobs and opportunities for Manitobans.

In addition to all of that, of course, the throne speech talks about the fact that this province is e xpected to have the second highest ove rall increase of any province in the country in capital investment, the highest increase in private capital investment, the highest increase in manufacturing capital investment , Mr. Speaker. All of those re present in vestmen ts and job-creating activ ities in our province. Ku Klux Klan Trial Public Inquiry Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radisson): Mr.

Speake r, on June 22, 1992, for the first time in Canada, charges of advocating and promoting genocide were laid under the Criminal Code of Canada. Now this week

December 16, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 613 in Winnipeg, we have a chance to make history and we have a historic event , the human rights tribunal regardi ng the KKK hotline that ran in Winnipeg, and the fact that many groups were thre ate ned and individuals were threatened from this line. My question to the Minister of Justice is: Why is this gove rnment downplaying and ignoring this issue and what public inquiry are they preparing on the failed trial from Sept ember regar ding the klan in Manitoba? Hon.

James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): This government has done any thin g but do wnp lay the issue of the dissemination of hatred in our province and in our jurisdiction. While we regret the events which led to the failure of the criminal prosecution, we look with interest at what is going on at the Canadian Human Rights Commission. Indeed, I await a report from the City of Winnip eg Pol ice respecting the investiga tion. I was discussing this matter only a day or so ago with senior offi cials in the department. I expect to hear soon as to what might flow from that review.

As far as a public inquiry, which is part of the honourable mem ber's question, that is the second time today I have heard the call from the benches opposite for a public inquiry. Public inquiries, by their nature , tend to stretch out very often the issue, as opposed to allowing us to get on with actually doing somet hing. The honour able member suggests a public inquiry, and I might ask her what it is she hopes to achieve. Are we going to learn that there is the dissemination of hatr ed? Well, we do not need to learn that, we already know that. Manitoba Intercultural Council Antlraclsm Recommendations Ms.

Marianne Cerllll {Radisson): Mr. Speaker, to have some action, I would ask this government, any of the ministers who received letters from the Manitoba Inte rcultur al Council on the implementation of the recommendations to deal with racism in this province, why have none of the departments, except the Department of Educat ion, responded to the letters that were sent on dealing with racism by the Manitoba Intercultural Council? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson {Minister responsible for Multiculturalism): Mr. Speaker, I think our record on deal ing with mul ticulturalism and antiracism initia tive speaks for itself. Mr.

Speake r, like the first multicultur alism act for the province of Manitoba, like the antiracism co-ordina tor who was appoi nted within the government of Manitoba, lik e the antiracism community outreach officer who was appointed by this government, like the anti racism training project that is ongoing within government right now, our record speaks for itself. Minister of Multiculturalism AnUraclsm Statement Ms. Marianne Cerllll {Radisson): Mr.

Speaker, I will ask the Minister respon sible for Multiculturalism why she has made no public statements opposing the proliferation of white supremacy and organized racist activity and organized racist organizations in this province. Why has she made no public- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put her ques tion. * {1420) Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister responsible for Multicultura lism): Mr. Sp eaker, I am absolutely offended with the comments that that member has made in the House about this side of the House and other member s. Those are racist comments.

She should be ashamed of herself for even asking that kind of a question when this government and all ministers on this side of the House are out speaking publicly- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speak er, for the minister, in her nonresponse to the question placed by the member, a member who has been targeted by the KKK hotline, for that minister to accuse this member of being racist as an excuse for that government's inaction on racism is unacceptable , and I would ask you to have the minister withdraw those comments immedi ately. Hon.

Darren Praznlk (Deputy Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I would submit that the member for Thompson {Mr. Ashton) has not raised a point of order. The member for Radisson {Ms. Cerilli) asked a question ofthe minister. The minister was provid ing a response. If in that response she expr essed surprise, given the remarks of the member in this House in the debate with respect to the throne speech-those remarks are in Hansard for her own

614 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 16, 1992 colleagues to read-1 would submit that there was nothing, no breach fr om any rules of this House in the minister's respon se. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable opposition House leader, I heard the remark •racist• comin g from the honourable ministe r, but I do not know in what context. The table officers are not sure in which context it was said. Therefore, I will take this matter under ad visement. When I get a copy of Hansard and a chance to peruse it, then I will come back to the House with a ruling on that matter. *** Mrs.

Mtchelson: Mr. Speaker, it is unfortunate some of the comments that were made by the member for Radisson in this House, when the Premier (Mr. Almon) was responding to the throne speech , did not show up in Hansard, because members of the Uberal opposition and members on this side of the House clearly heard them and were absolutely offended with those comments. Workers CompensaUon Penalties Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr.

Speaker, I have a quote and a question for the Minister responsible for the Workers Compensation Board: For a family on one income to lose 10 percent of his wage puts undue stress on himseH and his family. Then to withhold another 6.8 percent of his earnings until income tax refund time takes food and clothing away from the family. A further quote , Mr. Speake r: I have lost approximately $150 a week and had to completely liquidate my assets, putting stress on my family and taking food away from my fam ily's table.

My question to the Minister responsi ble for the Workers Comp ensa tion Board is: How does penal izing the injured workers of Manitoba, particularly this injured worker who has a wife and two infirm children, penalizing them 17 percent of their net income, help them to feel secure in the event of a workplace accident when the sole breadw inner is injured, Mr. Speaker? Hon. Darren Praznlk (Minister responsible for and charged with the administration of The Workers Compensation Act): Mr.

Speake r, with respect to the specific matter that the member for Transcona has raised, one would obviously have to look at the facts involved in terms of the income amounts to be able to comment on it. I would remind memb ers opposite that when The Workers Compe nsation Act was ref ormed, their party took a position that the status quo should remain, which paid on the basis of gross salary. So those income earners who are in the lower part of the scale received significantly less than they do under the new system. Member s opposite had no sympathy at all for them at the time. Mr.

Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. Speaker's Ruling Mr. Speaker: I have a ruling for the House . During Question Period on December 10, 1992 , the hon ourable memb er for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia-Leis) rose on a matter of privilege and claimed that the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) was refusing to provide information to the House which he was giving to persons outside the House and charged that the minister was withholding information from the House . She moved that this matter be refe rred to the S tancing Committee on Privileges and Elections. The government House le ader (Mr.

Manness), in providing advice to the Chair, argued, it is out of order to raise a matter of privilege during Question Period, citing Beauchesne's Citation 415. While it is not usual to raise matters of privilege in the House of Commons during Oral Questions, we in Manitoba have numerous precedents of this happening. The governmen t House le ader did correctly note, though, based on Beauchesne's Citation 416, that a matter of a minister not answering a question cannot be raised as a matter of privilege.

Further, Beauchesne's Citations 31 (2) and (3) state that, and I quote: "The failure of a Minister to answer a question may not be raised as a question of privilege." "Statements made outside the House by a Member may not be used as the basis for a question of privilege." As well, 31 (1 0) states tha t, and I quote: '"The qu estion has of te n been raised whether parliamentary privilege imposes on ministers an obligation to deliver minister ial state men ts and to make announcements and communications to the public through the House . .. or to make these announcem ents or statem en ts in the House rather than outside the chamber.

December 16, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 615 The qu estion has been asked whether honourable member s are entitled, as part of their parliamentary privilege, to receive such information ahead of the general public. I can find no precedent to justify this suggest ion.·· Citation 352 reads: 'The option of a Minister to make a statement either in the House or outside it may be the subject of comment, but it is not the subject of a question of privile ge.• Further, the honourable member for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia-Leis) did not provide any proof that the Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) was delibe rately withholding information from the House. I am therefore ruling that there is no matter of privilege. TABUNG OF REPORTS Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General}: Mr. Speaker, if you are all finished, I would ask if there would be agreement for us to revert to tabling for one moment while I table some documents. [agreed) Mr.

Speaker, I am tabling today the Annual Report of the Department of Justice for 1991-92, and I am pleased to table pursuant to The Regulations Act, a copy of each regulation registered with the Registrar of Regulations since the regulations were tabled in this House in December of last year. *

(1430) Nonpolitical Statements Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier}: I wonder if I might have leave for a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Speaker, given that today is the last day of the sitting of the House, on behalf of all members I am sure in this Legislature , I would like to extend best wishes for the forth coming holiday season . We have a number of different important religious celebrations taking place during the time that we are having our break for the holiday season, particu larly, of course , the celebration of Christmas and the celebration of Hanukkah.

On behalf of all members, I want to extend best wishes for seasons filled with health and happiness to all Manitobans, of whate ver faith they are and whatev er celebrations they participate during this holiday season, and cert ainly, on behaH again of all members, to all Manitobans our very best wishes for peace, health and prosperity in the new year of 1993.

I might also extend on my behalf, and indeed on behalf of my caucus, our very best wishes to all the members of the Legislature on the opposition side, our hope that they and their families will enjoy the holiday seasorr-an opportunity to renew their spirits, as well as their strengths, for the forthcoming resumption of the session in the new year. We hope that you all enjoy your holidays and have a very happy holiday season , and the very best for the new year of 1993. Ms.

Judy Wasylycla-Lels (Deputy Opposition House Leader}: May I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed) I would like to join with the Premier in this moment without rancor, out of confrontation and heated moments of Question Period and the usual flavour and temperament in this Chamber, and to join with everyone in extending the very best wishes to everyone in Manitoba throughout this holiday season, and to specifically wish those who celebrate Christmas the most Merry Christmas, and to other members in our community Happy Hanukkah and seasons greetings in whatever religion, culture they celebr ate at this period in our time.

I want to also add , as the Premier has ind icat ed, that we, too, wish for health and happiness for all members, all families in our communities right across the province of Manitoba in the new year, and add to that our wish that the future will bring greater peace , understa nding and tolerance and that will be our guiding light for the future and the foundation for our society. Thank you. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Darren Praznlk (Deputy Government House Leader}: Mr. Speaker, I would ask if you could please call Bill 4.

DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Bill 4- The Retail Bu sinesses Sunday Shopping {Temporary Amendments) Act Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Ministe r of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Stefan son), Bill 4, The Retail Busine sses Sunday Shopping (Temporary Amendments) Act ;

Loi sur l'ouverture des commerces de detai l les jours feries-modifications temporaires, standing in the name of the honourable Minister of Urban Affairs, who has 21 minutes remaining. Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Urban Affairs}: Question on the motion.

616 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 16, 1992 Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? The question before the House is second reading of Bill 4, The Retail Businesses Sunday Shopping (Tem porary Amendme nts) Act ;

Loi sur l'ouverture des com mer ces de detail les jours feri es­ modifications temporaires. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? All those in favour of the mot ion, please say yea. Some Honourable Members: Yea. Mr. Speaker: All those opposed, please say nay. Some Honourable Members: Nay. Mr. Speaker: In my opinion, the Yeas have it. Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Yeas and Nays, Mr. Speake r. Mr. Speaker: A recorded vote having been req uested , I would ask the Deputy Sergeant-at­ Arms to tum on the bells. Call in the members. The question before the House is second read ing of Bill 4, The Retail Businesses Sunday Shopping (Te mporary Amendmen ts) Act ;

Loi sur l'ouverture des com mer ces de detail les jours teri es­ modifications temporaires. A STANDING VOTE was taken, the result being as follows : Yeas Cummin gs, Dacq uay, Der kach , Down ey, Driedger, Ducharme, Enns, Ernst, Filmon, Findlay, Gi llesh ammer , Gray, Helwer, Lamoureux, Laurendea u , McAlpine, McCr ae, Mcin to sh, Mitchelson, Orchard , Pall ister, Praznik, Reimer, Render, Rose, Ste fanson, Sve inson, Vodrey.

Nays Ashton, Barrett, Ceril li, Cheem a, Chomiak, Dewar, Doer, Edw ards, Evans (Brandon East), Friesen, Hickes, Lath lin, Maloway, Martindale, Plohman, Reid, Santos, Storie, Wasylycia-Leis, Wowchuk. Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): Yeas 28; Nays 20. Mr. Speaker: I declare the motion accordingly carried. Mr. Cllf Evans (Interlake): Mr. Speak er, I was paired with the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness). *** Hon. Darren Praznlk (Deputy Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, on Orders of the Day, I would ask if you could please call for second read ing, Bill 13 , and for debate on second rea ding, I would ask if you could please call Bill 7. * (1 51 0) SECOND READINGS 8111 13- The Manitoba Employee Ownership Fund Corporation Amendment Act Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Urban Aff airs (Mr.

Ernst), that Bill 13 , The Manitoba Employee Ow nersh ip Fund Corporation Amendment Act; (Loi modifiant Ia Loi constituant en corporation le fonds de participation des travailleur s du Manitoba), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, I just want to put a few brief remarks on the record as it relates to this bill that is doing some basic housekeeping to this particular legislation.

The amendmen t to The Manitoba Employee Own er ship Fund Corporation Act has been introduced to specifically address two important issues respecting the Crocus investment ftmd. The first one is that during the initia l five years, the Province of Manitoba is prepared to assume respo nsibility for start-up expenses of the Crocus investment fund of up to $1 million through subordination. The conte mplated subordination will assist in maintaining the value of the Class A common shares that will be sold to individual Manitobans, but I want to point out, Mr.

Speaker, that after this five-year per iod, the government's position is restored to its original basis of $2 million of Class G special shares having priority then over the Class A common share capital. In addition, the Crocus investment fund should have gener ated an adequate capital base to absorb the start-up costs over the five-year period. So the first change, Mr. Speaker, is for five years from the gove rnment of Manitoba Class G special shares . The start-up costs will be in effect paid for, but the value of our Class G shares will revert back

December 16, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 617 to their original face value at the end of five years, so we are merely, during that period of time, providing the financing to cover those start-up costs. We are not, I want to point out, underwriting any investment losses. We are only covering the start -up costs during that five-year time fram e. The second issue, Mr. Speaker, the second pri orit y , is to pr even t and deal with some weaknesses of the tax credits that are associated with the labour-sponsored Venture Capital funds.

There appears to be some deficiencies that could have provided short-te rm advantage to inves tors with unin tended financial returns. This would clearly detract from the objective of creating long-term capital for the Crocus investment fund to invest in Manitoba businesses. Very briefly, Mr. Speaker, what is meant by that is a couple of issues.

Firstly, the discoura gemen t of any quic k flipping or any adj ustme nts is accomplished by requiring any holder of Class A common shares to be subjected to a minimum four-year holding period, rat her than the one-year notice pe riod cu rrently pro vided, before a repu rchase of such shares by the Cr ocus investment fund would be permissible. As well, Mr.

Speaker, another subsection 6(6) is designed to ensure that once a holder of Class A common shares gives notice of his or her desire to red eem , pursuant to subsection 6(1 )(a), any subsequent purchases by such Class A common shareho lder are subject to the standard sev en-year hold period rath er than the four-year hold period which may be permissible under another sec tion. As well, Mr.

Speak er, subsection 6(8) is added to ensure that if any holder of Class A common shares gives notice to redeem on such shares, thereafter he or she is prevented from purchasing Class A common shares again for a period of 24 months. Thus a purchaser giving notice to redeem would thereby prevent himself or herself from acquiring fur ther Cl ass A com mon shar es with the corres ponding tax credits in the same year and for a period thereafter of 24 months from the original notice of redemption. Those are the highlights of the changes, Mr. Speaker.

It is really, as I have indic ated , doing some housek eeping to a very important bill that I believe received the support of all memb ers of this Legislature when it was introduced , a bill we are anxious to see put into action in Manitoba. Individual Manitobans will have an opportunity, starti ng in early 1993 , to subscribe to this fund. They will be doing that not dissimilar from individuals in ves ting in RRSPs or other inves tment opportu nities in Manitoba.

We are certainly very excited about the prospects that this fund holds for Manitobans in the preservation of jobs and economic activity here in our province, working in conjunction with the Manitoba Federation of Labour. So, Mr. Speaker, I certainly encourage all memb ers of this House to support these amendmen ts that are before us here today. Thank you. Mr. Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon}: Mr. Speak er, I move, seconded by the member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes) , that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS B111 7-T he Builders' Liens Amendment Act Mr.

Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) , Bill ?, The Builders' Liens Amendmen t Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur le privilege du constructeur, standing in the name of the honourable member for Burrows. Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak on this bill, but instead I am going to defer to my colleague from Kildonan and let him speak next. Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan}: Mr. Speaker, I do not know how to follow up on those words of the member for Burrows, perhaps by prefa cing my comments with the statement that I will be short and to the point. I want at the onset to thank the minister for providing me with copies of his comments with relation to the bill prior to the actual debate .

I think that is a good practice and allows members on all sides of the House to be informed of the issues. We apprec iate spreadsheets on technical matters and on most bills, and I appreciate the fact that the minister provided comments on this particular amendment to us prior to my having occasion to speak. Mr. Speaker, I can indi cate at the onset that we will not be opposed to this matte r, passing it through the House today and going on to committ ee in order to fa cilit ate the requirement as indica ted by the

618 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 16, 1992 minister for the amendment to The Builders' Liens Act. Mr. Speaker, I will not go into a long technical di scussion conc e rning The Builde rs' Liens Amendment Act. Certainly the act itself is of ex treme signific ance to all involved in the construction trades and consumer industry in fact in the province of Manitoba as it relates to building and construction. Most membe rs of the public would probably be surprised to what great extent this act directly affects individuals on a daily basis.

Any home, for example, that is constructed generally comes under the auspices of this act, and a builder is required to hold back a sum in the amount of 7.5 percent in order to pay outst anding bills and the like of the project. Mr. Speaker, as I understand it, this bill is required because of a ruling of the Manitoba Court of Appeal that ruled that regi strati on was not required for enforce men t under The Builders' Liens Act. I did not have the opportunity to review the jurisprudence in this matte r.

I presume that decision was made based on comm on-law lien requir emen ts and common Jaw as it relates to liens of which there is considerable jurisprudence. Howe ver, we have no diff iculty in supporting this amendment on principle, Mr. Speaker, because of the fact that we have a Torrens land title system in this province.

In fact all matters relating to land titles and to registration fall under the Torrens system, so it is only consistent in principle and in practice for a lien to be required to be registered in order to be enforced, and it seems to me just in principle, which is why we are agreeing to have this matter go on to committee in principle. • (1 520) There should be no difficulty with maintaining this principle, Mr. Speaker, and continuing this principle in our syste m, since it is a registration system , and since it is a system where first-come, first-served essentially is preserved on the land title .

You maintain your interest and priority on the basis of regis trati on, consistent with that, of course, ther efore , this amendment is requiring that a builders' lien must be registered . It is interesting, Mr. Speaker, that the actual wording must be placed into the act in order to do that. I understand the requirement for staMory purposes. When I did rev iew the act itself, that is The Builders' Lien Act, the one that is now being amended, I noted that there was no actual recognition of the requirem ent for registration in order for enfor cement to take place.

This oversight generally is the main reason that we are putting this amendment through the House . Generally, I do not think we have a problem with it.

I look forward to committee hearings in order to allow for mem bers of the public, and any indivi duals who might have a specific re ason for not putti ng this amendment through, to hear their viewpoints, although in principle, as I indicated earlier in my comments, I do not see any reason why this amendment should not go through, based on the existence in this province of the Torre ns land system and a regis try, which requires registra tion, which requires enforcement and prioritization based on that.

Otherwise, there are a number of amendments dealing with, I presu me, changes to the rules of the court and the re ference to lis pendens. That is an amendm ent which is of no consequence other than cleaning up the act .

My only query actually in the act, and I would at some point like to ask the minister why this was missed when we last did staMe law amendmen ts and/or when we last did an amendment to The Builder s' Lien Act, because I was checking through my files, I was trying to reference the last amendme nts of The Builders' Lien Act, but as I recall I thought last session we had clone that, and I am curious as to why that amendment did not come through at that time. Perhaps I will use the opportunity when we go to committee to query that.

Those are my brief comments, and with those comments, I can indic ate there will be no more speakers from this side of the House, and we are prepared to see this matter go through to committ ee. Thank you, Mr. Speake r. Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, my friend indic ated he was going to be short and to the point. I am going to be short and to the point. The Liberal Party is prepared to have this bill pass to committee. Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? The question before the House is second reading of Bill 7, The Builders' Liens Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur le privilege du constructe ur. Is

December 16, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 619 it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? Agreed? An Honourable Member: Agreed. Mr. Speaker: Agreed and so ordered. House Business Hon. Darren Praznlk {Deputy Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, if you were to canvass the House, I believe that you would find that there is unanimous consent for me to introduce a motion respecting the reconve ning of this House in the new year. Mr. Speaker: Does the hono urable deputy gove rnment House leader have leave to introduce such a motion? [agreed] Mr. Praznlk: Mr.

Speaker, I would move, seconded by the honourable Deputy Premier (Mr. Downe y) , that when this House adjourns today, it shall stand ad journed until Monday, March 1 , 1993. Mr. Speaker: Prior to putting the question , I would like to inform the House that on behalf of myself and my family, the table officers, the Chamber branch and Hansard, we would like to take this opportunity to wish each and every one of the memb ers of the Manitoba Legisla tive Assembly and your families a very, very Merry Christmas and a prosperous New Year.

We will harken at the fact that we will see you again at the beginning of March to see all of your happy and smiling fa ces. The question before the House, it has been moved by the honourable Minister of Labour (Mr. Praznik), seconded by the honourable Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Downe y), that when this House adjourns today it shall stand ad journed until Monday, March 1, 1993. Agreed? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Mr. Speaker: That is agreed and so ordered . Mr. Praznlk: Mr.

Speaker, I believe if you were to canvass the House, you would find that there would be unanimous consent to waive private mem bers' hour as well as to call it six o'clock. Mr. Speaker: Is it the will of the House to call it six o'clock? [agreed) The hour being 6 p.m., this House now ad journs and stands ad journed until March 1, 1993. Merry Christm as!

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba VVednesday, Decernber 16, 1992 CONTENTS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Annual Report, Justice ; Regu lations under Regulations Act 61 5 Presenting Petitions McCrae Investigation of Gas Prices 603 Oral Questions Wowchuk Reading and Receiving Petitions Immigrant Investor Fund Doer; Stefanso n; Filmon 605 Restriction of Stubble Burning Alcock 603 Health Care sretem Reform Wasylycia-eis; Orchard 606 Implemen tation of No-fault Auto Insurance 603 Education System Reform Ashton Gray; Vodrey 607 Pharmacare System Reform 604 Labour Force Development Cheema Fries en; Vodrey 608 Restriction of Stubble Burning Lamoureux 604 Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation L.

Evans; Cummings 609 Tabling of Reports Agassiz Youth Centre 609 Edwar ds; McCrae Annual Reports: Chief Electoral Officer; lnd �nous Women's Collective Ombudsman ickes; Downey 610 Roc an 604 Annual Report, Labour Gross Revenue Insurance Plan Praznik 604 Plohman; Findlay 61 1 Annual Report, Manitoba Energy Authority Sunday Shopping Downey 604 Wowchuk; Stefanson 61 1 Annual Reports : Rent Regulation Program; Manitoba Liquor Control Commission Unem ployed Help Centre Asht on; Filmon 61 2 Mcintosh 604 Ku Klux Klan Trial Annual Reports: Freedom of Information Act ; Cerilli; McCrae 612 Manitoba Lotteries Foundation; Quarterly Manitoba Intercultural Council Reports: Manitoba Lotte ries Foundation Cerilli; Mitchelson 613 Mitchelson 605 Minister of Multiculturalism Annual Report, Venture Manitoba Tours Ltd .

Ceri lli; Mitchelson 613 Enns 605 Reports of Agricultural Producers' Workers Compensation Reid; Praznik 614 Organization Certification Agency Findlay 605 Annual Reports: Fiscal St abilization Fund; Speaker's Ruling Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corp. Return under Financial Admin istration Act Matter of Privilege, December 1 0, 1992 Ernst 605 Rocan 614

Nonpolitical Statements Season's Greetings Film on Wasylycia-leis ORDERS OF THE DAY Debate on Second Readings Bill 4, Retail Businesses Sunday Shopping (Temporary Amendmen ts) Act 61 5 61 5 Emst 61 5 Second Readings Bill 13 , Manitoba Employee Owner ship Fund Corporation Amendmen t Act Stef anson 61 6 Debate on Second Readings Bill 7, Builders' liens Amendment Act Martindale 61 7 Chomiak 61 7 Edwards 61 8