Manitoba Hansard — 10 July 2013 (Sitting 72, 40th Legislature, 2nd Session)

40-2-72

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Fortieth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Daryl Reid Speaker Vol. LXV No. 72 - 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, July 10, 2013 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Fortieth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital NDP ALLUM, James Fort Garry-Riverview NDP ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley NDP ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson NDP BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli NDP BLADY, Sharon Kirkfield Park NDP BRAUN, Erna Rossmere NDP BRIESE, Stuart Agassiz PC CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East NDP CHIEF, Kevin, Hon. Point Douglas NDP CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan NDP CROTHERS, Deanne St.

James NDP CULLEN, Cliff Spruce Woods PC DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk NDP DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood PC EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside PC EWASKO, Wayne Lac du Bonnet PC FRIESEN, Cameron Morden-Winkler PC GAUDREAU, Dave St. Norbert NDP GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Liberal GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach PC GRAYDON, Cliff Emerson PC HELWER, Reg Brandon West PC HOWARD, Jennifer, Hon. Fort Rouge NDP IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri, Hon. Fort Richmond NDP JHA, Bidhu Radisson NDP KOSTYSHYN, Ron, Hon. Swan River NDP LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. Dawson Trail NDP MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St.

Johns NDP MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden PC MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MARCELINO, Flor, Hon. Logan NDP MARCELINO, Ted Tyndall Park NDP MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel NDP MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East PC NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake NDP OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River NDP PALLISTER, Brian Fort Whyte PC PEDERSEN, Blaine Midland PC PETTERSEN, Clarence Flin Flon NDP REID, Daryl, Hon. Transcona NDP ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Kewatinook NDP RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia NDP ROWAT, Leanne Riding Mountain PC SARAN, Mohinder The Maples NDP SCHULER, Ron St. Paul PC SELBY, Erin, Hon. Southdale NDP SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St.

Boniface NDP SMOOK, Dennis La Verendrye PC STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo PC STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin NDP SWAN, Andrew, Hon. Minto NDP WHITEHEAD, Frank The Pas NDP WIEBE, Matt Concordia NDP WIGHT, Melanie Burrows NDP WISHART, Ian Portage la Prairie PC Vacant Morris

3263 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, July 10, 2013 The House met at 1:30 p.m. Mr. Speaker: O Eternal and Almighty God, from Whom all power and wisdom come, we are assembled here before Thee to frame such laws as may tend to the welfare and prosperity of our province. Grant, O merciful God, we pray Thee, that we may desire only that which is in accordance with Thy will, that we may seek it with wisdom and know it with certainty and accomplish it perfec tly for the glory and honour of Thy name and for the welfare of all our people. Amen. Good afternoon, everyone. Please be seated.

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 214–The Cyberbullying Prevention Act Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): I move, seconded by the member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Ewasko), that Bill 214, The Cyberbullying Prevention Act, be now read for a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Goertzen: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased today to introduce Bill 214, The Cyberbullying Prevention Act. This act is a step in returning power to young people and others who have lost power as a result of cyberbullying.

Under the legislation, those who are victims of cyberbullying would be able to obtain protection orders against those who are bullying them. Youth as young as 16 would be able to apply for this protection without parental involvement. It would also allow law enforcement officials to seize computers, cellphones and other instruments that are being used in the act of cyberbullying. The legisla tion also establishes a separate civil tort to allow damages to be awarded to an individual who suffers damages as a result of cyberbullying.

It also places an onus on parents and those in care of minors to act when they are aware a minor in their care is engaging in cyberbullying. This legislation brings together parental involvement, police ability and power for youth. It's a significant problem, cyberbullying is; it requires a significant response. The NDP have failed to provide that response, so we hav e done so on behalf of all Manitobans and youth who need to be protected, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Any further introduction of bills?

Seeing none– PETITIONS Provincial Sales Tax Increase–Referendum Mr. Ian Wishart (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. And these are the reasons for the petition: The provincial government promised not to raise taxes in the last election. Through Bill 20, the provincial government wants to increase the retail sales tax, known as the PST, by one point without the legally required referendum. An increase to the PST is excessive taxation and will harm Manitoba families.

Bill 20 strips Manitobans of their democratic right to determine when major tax increases are necessary. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to not raise the PST without holding a provincial referendum. This petition is signed by D. Walden, C. Calvert, D. Giesbrecht and many, many more fine Manitobans. Mr. Speaker: In keeping with rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to have been received by the House. Mr. Wayne Ewasko (Lac du Bonnet): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly.

These are the reasons for this petition:

(1) The provincial government promised not to raise taxes in the last election.

3264 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2013

(2) Through Bill 20, the pr ovincial government wants to increase the retail sales tax, known as the PST, by one point without the legally required referendum.

(3) An increase to the PST is excessive taxation that will harm Manitoba families.

(4) Bill 20 strips Manitobans of their democratic right to determine when major tax increases are necessary. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to not raise the PST without holding a provincial referendum. This petition is signed b y K. Cross, D. Mukhbrjef, R.F. Schiller and many, many other fine Manitobans, Mr. Speaker. Municipal Amalgamations–Reversal Mrs. Leanne Rowat (Riding Mountain): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly.

And the background to t his petition is as follows: The provincial government recently announced plans to amalgamate any municipalities with fewer than 1,000 constituents. The provincial government did not consult with or notify the affected municipalities of this decision prior to the Throne Speech announcement on November 19th, 2012, and has further imposed unrealistic deadlines. If the provincial government imposes amalgamations, local democratic representation will be drastically limited while not providing any real improvements in cost savings.

Local governments are further concerned that amalgamation will fail to address the serious issues facing–currently facing municipalities, including an absence of reliable infrastructure funding and timely flood compensation. Municipalities deserve to be treated with respect. Any amalgamations should be voluntary in nature and led by the municipalities themselves.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the Minister of Local Government afford l ocal governments the respect they deserve and reverse his decision to force municipalities with fewer than 1,000 constituents to amalgamate. This petition is signed by V. Ferguson, E. Ferguson, W. Boucher and many more concerned Manitobans. Applied Behaviour Analysis Services Mr. Blaine Pedersen (Midland): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly.

The background to this petition is as follows: The provincial government broke a commitment to support families of children with a diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder, including timely diagnosis and access to necessary treatment such as applied behavioural analysis, also known as ABA services. The provincial government did not follow its own policy statement on autism services which notes the importance of early intervention for children with autism. The preschool waiting list for ABA services has reached its highest level ever with at least 56 children waiting for services.

That number is expected to exceed 70 children by September 2013 despite commitments to reduce the waiting list and provide timely access to services. The provincial government policy of eliminating ABA services in schools by grade 5 has caused many children in Manitoba to age out of the window for this very effective ABA treatment because of a lack of access. Many more children are expected to age out because of a lack of available treatment spaces. Waiting lists and denials of treatment are unacceptable. No child shall–should be denied access to or age out of eligibility for ABA services.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the Minister of Family Services and Labour consider ma king funding available to address the current waiting lists for ABA services. * (13:40) And this petition is signed by M. Axelrod, A. Flynn, R. Demenuk and many more fine Manitobans.

July 10, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3265 Provincial Sales Tax Increase–Referendum Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. These are the reasons for this petition: The provincial government promised not to raise taxes in the last election. Through Bill 20, the provincial government wants t o increase the retail sales tax, known as the PST, by one point without the legally required referendum. An increase to the PST is excessive taxation that will harm Manitoba families.

Bill 20 strips Manitobans of their democratic right to determine when major tax increases are necessary. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to not raise the PST without holding a provincial referendum. And this is signed by A. Holmberg, J. Lewis, J. Peltier and many others. Hydro Capital Development–NFAT Review Mr. Cliff Cullen (Spruce Woods): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly.

These are the reasons for this petition: Manitoba Hydro was mandated by the provincial government to commence a $21 -billion capital development plan to service uncertain electricity export markets. In the last five years, competition from alternative energy sources is decreasing the price and demand for Manitoba's hydroelectricity and causing the financ ial viability of this capital plan to be questioned. The $21- billion capital plan requires Manitoba Hydro to increase domestic electricity rates by up to 4 per cent annually for the next 20 years and possibly more if export opportunities fail to materialize.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge that the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro create a complete and transparent needs-for-and-alternatives-to review of Manitoba Hydro's total capital development plan to ensure the financial viability of Manitoba Hydro. This petition is signed by R. Holmes, W. Tisdale and D. Bieber and many other fine Manitobans. Provincial Sales Tax Increase–Referendum Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Leg. Assembly. And these are the reasons for this petition:

(1) The provincial government promised not to raise taxes in the last election.

(2) Through Bill 20, the provincial government wants to increase the retail sales tax, known as the PST, by one point without the legally required referendum.

(3) An increase to the PST is excessive taxation that will harm Manitoba families.

(4) Bill 20 strips Manitobans of their democratic right to determine when major tax increases are necessary. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to not raise the PST without holding a provincial referendum. This is signed by T. Chabluk, B. Friesen, B. Friesen and many other Manitobans. Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): I wish to present the following pet ition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: The provincial government promised not to raise taxes in the last election.

Through Bill 20, the provincial government wants to increase the retail sales tax, known as the PST, by one point without the legally required referendum. An increase to the PST is excessive taxation that will harm Manitoba families. Bill 20 strips Manitobans of their democratic right to determine when major tax increases are necessary. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows:

3266 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2013 To urge the provincial government to not raise the PST without holding a provincial referendum. This petition is submitted on behalf of N. Lamm, M. Armstrong, J. Monforton and many other fine Manitobans. Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. And these are the reasons for this petition:

(1) The provincial government promised not to raise taxes in the last election.

(2) Through Bill 20, the provincial government wants to increase the retail sales tax, known as the PST, by one point without the legally required referendum.

(3) An increase to the PST is excessive taxation that will harm Manitoba families.

(4) Bill 20 strips Manitobans of their democratic right to determine when major tax increases are necessary. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to not raise the PST without holding a provincial referendum. And, Mr. Speaker, this petition is signed by L. Dyck, P. Gladden, J. Gladden and many, many other fine Manitobans. Applied Behaviour Analysis Services Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur- Virden): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background to this petition is as follows:

(1) The provincial government broke a commitment to support families of children with a diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder, including timely diagnosis and access to necessary tr eatment such as applied behavioural analysis, as known as ABA services.

(2) The provincial government did not follow its own policy statement on autism services which notes the importance of early intervention for children with autism.

(3) The preschool waiting list for ABA services has reached its highest level ever with at least 56 children waiting for services. That number is expected to exceed 70 children by September 2013 despite commitments to reduce the waiting list and provide timely access to services.

(4) The provincial government policy of eliminating ABA services in schools by grade 5 has caused many children in Manitoba to age out of the window for this very effective ABA treatment because of a lack of access. Many more children are expected to age out because of a lack of available treatment spaces.

(5) Waiting lists and denials of treatment are unacceptable. No child should be denied access to or age out of eligibility for ABA services. We petition the Legislative Assembly as follows: To request that the Minister of Family Services and Labour consider making funding available to address the current waiting lists for ABA services. Mr. Speaker, this petition is signed by R. Latourelle, A. Williamson and T. Naske and many, many others. Municipal Amalgamations–Reversal Mr. Stuart Briese (Agassiz): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.

And this is the background for this petition: The provincial government recently announced plans to amalgamate any municipalities with fewer than a thousand constituents. The provincial government did not consult with or notify the affected municipalities of this decision prior to the Throne Speech announcement on November 19th, 2012, and has further imposed unrealistic deadlines. If the provincial government imposes amalgamations, local democratic representation will be drastically limited while not providing any real improvements in cost savings.

Local governments are further concerned that amalgamation will fail to address the serious issues currently facing municipalities, including an absence of reliable infrastructure funding and timely flood compensation. Municipalities deserve to be treated with respect. Any amalgamations should be vol untary in nature and led by the municipalities themselves.

July 10, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3267 We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister of Local Government afford local governments the respect they deserve and reverse his decision to force munic ipalities with fewer than a thousand constituents to amalgamate. This petition is signed by S. Southam, L. Olson, J. Murray and many, many other fine Manitobans. Provincial Sales Tax Increase–Referendum Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly.

And these are the reasons for this petition: The provincial government promised not to raise taxes in the last election. Through Bill 20, the provincial government wants to increase the retail sales tax, known as the PST, by one point without the legally required referendum. An increase in the PST is excessive taxation that will harm Manitoba families. Bill 20 strips Manitobans of their democratic right to determine when major tax increases are necessary. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to not raise the PST without holding a provincial referendum.

And this petition is signed by L. Hunnie, J. Pleo, G. Gillirs and thousands of other Manitobans. Applied Behaviour Analysis Services Mr. Reg Helwer (Brandon West): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background to this petition is as follows: * (13:50)

(1) The provincial government broke a commitment to support families of children with a diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder, including timely diagnosis and access to necessary treatment such as applied behavioural analysis, also known as ABA services.

(2) The provincial government did not follow its own policy statement on autism services which notes the importance of early intervention for children with autism.

(3) Their preschool waiting list for ABA services has reached its highest level ever with at least 56 children waiting for services. That number is expected to exceed 70 children by September 2013 despite commitments to reduce the waiting list and provide timely access to services.

(4) The provincial government policy eliminating ABA services in schools by grade 5 has caused many children in Manitoba to age out of the window for this very effective ABA treatment because of a lack of access. Many more children are expected to age out because of a lack of available treatment spaces.

(5) Waiting lists and denials of treatment are unacceptable. No child should be denied access to or age out of eligibility for ABA services. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the Minister of Family Services and Labour consider making funding available to address the current waiting list for ABA services. Signed by B. Epp, T. Tully, J. Klassen and many other Manitobans. Mr. Ron Schuler (St. Paul): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background to this petition is as follows:

(1) The provincial government broke a commitment to support families of children with a diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder, including timely diagnosis and access to necessary treatment such as applied be havioural analysis, also known as ABA services.

(2) The provincial government did not follow its own policy statement on autism services which notes the importance of early intervention for children with autism.

(3) School learning services has its first ever waiting list which started with two children. The waiting list is projected to keep growing and to be in excess of 20 children by September 2013. Therefore, these children will go through the biggest transition of their lives without receiving ABA services and has helped other children achieve huge gains.

3268 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2013

(4) The provincial government has adopted a policy to eliminate ABA services in schools by grade 5 despite the fact that these children have been diagnosed with autism which still requires therapy . These children are being denied necessary ABA services that will allow them access to the same educational opportunities as any other Manitoban.

(5) Waiting lists and denials of treatment are unacceptable. No child should be denied access or eliminated from eligibility for ABA services if their need still exists. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the Minister of Education consider making funding available to eliminate the current waiting list for ABA school -age services and fund ABA services for individuals diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder. This is signed by V. Pathizina E. Poschner, M. Mihalchuk and many, many other Manitobans. Thank you. Provincial Sales Tax Increase–Referendum Mr.

Dennis Smook (La Verendrye): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. These are the reasons for this petition:

(1) The provincial government promised not to raise taxes in the last election.

(2) Through Bill 20, the provincial government wants to increase the retail sales tax, known as the PST, by one point without the legally required referendum.

(3) An increase to the PST is excessive taxation that will harm Manitoba families.

(4) Bill 20 strips Manitobans of their democratic right to d etermine when major tax increases are necessary. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government not to raise the PST without holding a provincial referendum. This petition is signed by G. Ross, D. Klyne, P. Prociuk and many more fine Manitobans. Applied Behaviour Analysis Services Mr. Cameron Friesen (Morden -Winkler): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. And the background to this petition is as follows:

(1) The provincial government broke a commitment to support families of children with a diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder, including timely diagnosis and access to necessary treatment such as applied behavioural analysis, also known as ABA services.

(2) The provincial government did not follow its own policy statement on autism services which notes the importance of early intervention for children with autism.

(3) School learning services has its first ever waiting list which started with two childr en. The waiting list is projected to keep on growing and to be in excess of 20 children by September 2013. Therefore, these children will go through the biggest transition of their lives without receiving ABA services that has helped other children achieve huge gains.

(4) The provincial government has adopted a policy to eliminate ABA services in schools by grade 5 despite the fact that these children have been diagnosed with autism which still requires therapy. These children are being denied necessary AB A services that will allow them access to the same educational opportunities as any other Manitoban.

(5) Waiting lists and denials of treatment are unacceptable. No child should be denied access to or eliminated from eligibility for ABA services if their need still exists. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the Minister of Education consider making funding available to eliminate the current waiting list for ABA school -age services and fund ABA services for ind ividuals diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder. And this petition is signed by B. Epp, T. Tully and J. Klassen and many, many other Manitobans. Mr. Cliff Graydon (Emerson): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.

July 10, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3269 And this is the background to this petition:

(1) The provincial government broke a commitment to support families of children with a diagnosis of autism spectrum disorde r, including timely diagnosis and access to necessary treatment such as applied 'behaviourlar' analysis, also known as ABA services. The provincial government did not follow its own policy statement on autism services which notes the importance of early invention –intervention for children with autism.

(3) School learning services has its first ever waiting list which started with two children. The waiting list is projected to keep growing and to be in excess of 20 children by September 2013. Therefore, these children will go through the biggest transition of their lives without receiving ABA services that has helped other children achieve huge gains.

(4) The provincial government has adopted a policy to eliminate ABA services in schools by grade 5 despite the fact that these children have been diagnosed with autism while still requires therapy. These children are being denied necessary ABA services that will allow them access to the same educational opportunities as other Manitobans.

(5) Waiting lists and denials of treatment are unacceptable. No child should be denied access to or eliminated from eligibility for ABA services if their need still exists. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the Minister of Educ ation consider making funding available to eliminate the current waiting lists for ABA school -age services and fund ABA services for individuals diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder. And this petition is signed by C. Paredes, E. Guemo and J. Jacinto a nd many, many more fine Manitobans. * (14:00) Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to oral questions, I'd like to draw the attention of honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us today from Keewatin- Inkster Neighbourhood Resource Council's new program, Men in the Kitchen!, we have Harold Bachinski, Tom Hutchinso n, Steve Mateush, John Paton, Wesley Thomson and Harvey Sumka, who are the guests of the honourable member for Tyndall Park (Mr. Marcelino). On behalf of honourable members, we welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Provincial Deficit Economic Growth Mr.

Brian Pallister (Leader of the Official Opposition): Let's talk about this myth of the Premier being a builder again, Mr. Speaker. Every builder understands that you can't build unless you have a strong foundation, and the spenDP are eroding Ma nitoba's foundation for growth by expanding our provincial debt. The NDP has created an unsustainable fiscal structure that grows debt much faster than the rate of economic growth of our province. In fact, the rate of economic growth has been–well, the N DP rate of debt growth has been two and a half times the rate of economic growth in our province since the NDP came in.

So let's be clear. During the most prosperous decade in Manitoba history with the highest increase in revenues and the lowest interest rates in modern times, a ideal set of circumstances to strengthen our province, Mr. Speaker, what did the Premier construct? A giant debt hole. Does the Premier understand that a giant debt hole is not a good foundation on which to build the future economy of our province? Hon. Greg Selinger (Premier): Mr. Speaker, when we came into office, the debt as a portion of the economy was 33 per cent. We lowered it down to 23 per cent.

The cost of servicing the debt when the Leader of the Opposition was a senior member of Cabinet was 13.2 cents on the dollar. The cost of servicing our debt today is 5.9 cents on the dollar. The economy has doubled. It was about $32 billion when members opposite were in office. It's $62 billion this year, and there are more peop le working in the history of Manitoba than has ever been before in the province. We've reduced the debt as a portion of the economy. We halved the cost of servicing the debt. We've created more jobs, and we've doubled the economy.

3270 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2013 Interest Rates Future Tax Increases Mr. Brian Pallister (Leader of the Official Opposition): Well, Mr. Speaker, here's the problem. The degree of difficulty on this issue is not that hard, even for a premier who doesn't have a degree in economics. The debt-to-GDP ratio is the best indicator of the management capability of a government. The debt-to-GDP ratio in the '90s he loves to refer to –he knows this as a fact–rose by 3 per cent in that decade and it's risen by 52 per cent under this government, 17 times as rapidly.

And there's a problem with that and that problem is a serious one: big debt service cost. And this back-to-the-future Premier who loves the last century so much must understand that interest rates at that time were radically higher than they are today. Interest rates today are at record lows; in fact, they're half of what they were then. So, of course, all this talk about managing well is just that. The Premier's ribbon cuttings are being funded by borrowed money taken from children and grandchildren, and the NDP should understand that their high spending creates a high- tax problem for Manitobans.

Can the Premier deny that higher interest rates to come will inevitably guarantee higher NDP taxes on Manitobans? Hon. Greg Selinger (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the debt was lowered by about 30 per cent in Manitoba in our first decade in office, from 33 per cent down to 23 per cent as a portion of the economy. Members opposite don't recognize that we actually created more jobs. We actually created a larger economy and we actually paid down the debt as a portion of the economy.

And one thing–when the members opposite came into office in 1988- 1989, one of the recommendations they had from their financial review was to deal with the pension liability for teachers and for public servants. They ignored that and it grew by over a billion dollars. We have addressed that pension liability for teachers and public servants. We have stabilized that and brought it under control. Members opposite ignored the obvious requirements of making public services sustainable. We have addressed them, Mr. Speaker, and the $550 million of cuts that the members opposite wished to visit upon– Mr.

Speaker: Order, please. The First Minister's time has expired. Provincial Deficit Repayment Timeline Mr. Brian Pallister (Leader of the Official Opposition): The Premier should consult the member to his right who had it at a third of that the other day. They can't get their own story straight, Mr. Speaker. This is not a builder over here. This is a debt-hole digger. That's what this Premier's all about, and his high- spending problem has become Manitoba's high-tax problem, and his PST hike will simply make matters even worse. Now, he inherited a wonderful opportunity, and he and his government blew it.

The strongest Manitoba economic recovery ever, and he blew it – nothing to do with him –he blew it. Fastest growing revenues in the history of this province, and he blew it. Lowest interest rates in modern history, and he blew it. And let's talk abo ut transfers from Ottawa now. Record transfers from Ottawa increased by double the rate of the decade before, and he blew that too, and the result of all this wonderful opportunity was a doubling of the Manitoba debt. Now, will the Premier simply admit that the reason he is so infatuated with the '90s and the last century is that he's blown this decade? Hon.

Greg Selinger (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the member knows full well that the debt in Manitoba as a portion of the economy is less than when he was in office and the cost of servicing the debt is 50 per cent less than when he was in office. And the member may not know this, but we actually have put assets on the books. We have a replacement value of assets in this province of $36 billion. Those assets are schools that educate our young people. Those assets are hospitals that look after the elderly and the ill. Those assets are personal care homes which take care of people.

Those assets are flood protection in the Red River Valley and around the city of Winnipeg. And in the middle of the recession, the members opposite wanted to slash spending, lay people off, put people on the unemployment rolls and stop building the province of Manitoba. That is a recipe

July 10, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3271 for disaster. The members opposite would be the biggest disaster in the history of the province. PST Increase Request to Reverse Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): I think the biggest disaster is this Premier in the history of this province. Wow. Mr. Speaker, Becky Cianflone from the Altona & District Chamber of Commerce took time out of her

schedule to come out and speak at committee on Saturday on Bill 20. She was very concerned about the negative impact the PST hike will have on businesses in her area. And she said, and I quote, our businesses feel abandoned and attacked by this government. End quote. She called on this government to reverse their decision on the PST hike. Mr. Speaker, my question for this government: Will the government listen to Becky and reverse their decision on this PST hike? Hon.

Peter Bjornson (Minister of Entrepreneur - ship, Training and Trade ): I know the members opposite have raised this question yesterday as well, and I'll –and perhaps members opposite didn't hear the answer, but I'll gladly repeat it and add some more information to that question. When we went from 8 per cent small business tax to zero–the first government in Canada to do that, Mr. Speaker–the annual savings projected for a small business with a two –$425,000 taxable income was $55,250 per year.

Now, of course, this is something that we've been doing over time by eventually eliminating that 8 per cent small business tax. So the member opposite should know that if a business is making $425,000 in taxable income, since 1999 they have saved $519,400. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The minister's time has expired. Mrs. Stefanson: Becky Cianflone, like Allison Campbell, explained the ripple effect the one -point increase in PST will have on Manitobans.

The cost burden on businesses will be passed on to consumers which will have an impact of a further increase to goods and services beyond just the 14 per cent increase the PST introduced by this government. Both these people suggested that the increase would likely lead to layoffs in their businesses. Will the NDP government listen to Becky Cianflone and to Allison Campbell and others and reverse their decision to hike the PST on hard-working Manitobans? Mr. Bjornson: You know, I do meet with a lot of small businesses. I do meet with a lot of organizations that represent small businesses.

I tour a lot of the mid -size and large companies here in Manitoba, and what I'm hearing is a lot of optimism for people who are saying they are going to hire more, and what I'm hearing is one of their big concerns about hir ing more people to work in their businesses is the fact that they need trained employees.

That's the No. 1 concern that I keep hearing from businesses when I tour those businesses. * (14:10) So there's a relationship between investing in education, investing in training, providing tax credits for apprenticeship programs and all the things that we've been doing to grow the economy through having one of the best skilled and trained workforces in the country. Members opposite, 1 per cent cut; that would kill a lot of programs in my department, Mr. Speaker. Mrs. Stefanson: Mr.

Speaker, Becky Cianflone, Allison Campbell and many others came to committee and expressed their concern about this illegal PST hike. They spoke of the government's, and I quote, blatant disregard for proper process. End quote. Mr. Speaker, it's not too late. Bill 20 still has not passed through the Legislature. Will this NDP government do the right thing and either pull this bill or call for the required referendum? Mr. Bjornson: Well, Mr. Speaker, what we will do is continue to find ways to support the 106,000 businesses in the province of Manitoba, and– An Honourable Member: How are you going to do that? Mr.

Bjornson: Well, the member's asking how are we going to do it. Well, we have done it through a number of different initiatives to cut red tape, to provide streamlined services, to cut the taxes, which I mentioned before, Mr. Speaker, not 8 per cent, to zero, cutting the corporate taxes as well. And members opposite perhaps should look at some of the third party validators that have said that

3272 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2013 Manitoba is one of the most affordable places t o do business. City of Winnipeg is one of the most affordable cities to do business as well. Maybe they should expand their reading. PST Increase Request to Withdraw Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, our recent public hearings on Bill 20, Doug Chorney from the Keystone Ag Producers stated very clearly that the proposed PST increase will harm Manitoba farm families, 'expecially' young farm families. We have an aging farm population.

With one of anti-farm blocking here will hurt our youth from getting involved in farming by this government's spending problem. I ask this NDP government to withdraw this law-breaking, ill-thought-out Bill 20. Will they do it today, Mr. Speaker? Hon. Ron Kostyshyn (Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): It's–I'd like to acknowledge the member opposite for his question. And, obviously, the reason for the 1 per cent PST is when we talk about affected agricultural producers in the province of Manitoba, let's look at Lake Manitoba of the flood of 2011.

We've stated publicly that we are going to put infrastructure in place to prevent a reoccurrence of the flood of 2011. I want to ensure the member opposite and I –in all due appreciation to Mr. Chorney, Doug Chorney, of KAP organization–they're a great organization that we continually communicate to look forward ideas and suggestions as we move forward for the betterment of the economy for the province of Manitoba through the agriculture society of the province of Manitoba. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Eichler: Mr. Speaker, attacking the next generation of farm families with the PS increase is just wrong.

This is on top of another lie this government said that they would eliminate education taxes on farmland in the last election. In fact, it was this very ministe r. Instead, on top of that, this minister does not understand what Curtis Rae [phonetic], a young farmer who has a young family, being lied to once, but twice, by this very government. Do the right thing. Withdraw Bill 20. Do it today. Mr.

Kostyshyn : As we talk about the investment we're making in the province of Manitoba for the betterment of young entrepreneurs, young ranchers, of the province, I want to assure the member opposite that our province is facing certain challenges, and let me tell you, 'objee', the importance of community pastures in the province of Manitoba. It's a true [inaudible] that we were working towards.

Obviously, the members opposite need to be reminded that the federal government has chosen to release the federal –the community pastures into our jurisdictions, so we are now looking towards [inaudible] the cattle population for the betterment of the young ranchers in the province of Manitoba so they can have the opportunity to use community pastures as a viable option towards the cattle population in the province of Manitoba. Minister of Local Government Apology Request Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): Mr.

Speaker, the member from Dawson Trail called the people this government in power that put them in power, and I quote, "howling coyotes." End of quote. Mr. Speaker, we all agree that we cannot agree on each –with each other, which is fine; that's democracy. I ask the member from Dawson Trail to do the honourable thing, stand up and simply say, I'm sorry. Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Local Government): Well, Mr. Speaker, everyone on this side respects democracy and respect those people that come to committee giving presentations. We look forward to Bill 18 going forward. We look forward to Bill 33 going forward.

We look forward to Manitobans coming forward and giving their views, quite frankly, on all the legislation that we've put forward. We believe it's the best interests of all Manitobans. So, with respect to committee hearings, Mr. Speaker, it's incumbent on all of us to listen to the speakers whether –no matter what side they are on the issue, and we respect the people of Manitoba and respect those committee hearings greatly. Plessis Road Underpass Project Update Mr. Blaine Pedersen (Midland): Mr. Speaker, on Monday, the ribbon cutting for the Plessis Road underpass was cancelled at the last minute.

The NDP MLA for Elmwood has now put at risk municipal, provincial and federal funding for this project.

July 10, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3273 Can the Premier inform this House whether the project will still go ahead, or has the MLA for Elmwood effectively killed the project? Hon. Greg Selinger (Premier): Mr. Speaker, we made an early commitment to this project, and I can assure th e member the project will be proceeding. We've dis–the mayor and I have discussed this, and the project will be proceeding. Mr. Pedersen: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to know whether he consulted with the MLA for Elmwood, then, prior to that announcement.

But this project must be completed by March 2015 in order to qualify for Building Canada funds. This project was announced over a year ago by all three levels of government. Suddenly, the Premier's MLA for Elmwood has now stopped the project in its tracks. Will the Premier allow the MLA for Elmwood to put the Plessis Road project in jeopardy so it will not be completed at all? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, we made an early announcement on this project. This allowed the City to do the necessary engineering work and reviews on it.

The project is proceeding with the enthusiastic support from all members on this side of the House who are actually willing to put the money in the budget to support the project. Mr. Pedersen: Mr. Speaker, delays to this project will not only put access to Building Canada funds at risk, every delay will add to the costs of the project, and that's especially given this Province's poor track record on cost containment. So what assurances can the Premier give that his M–NDP MLA for Elmwood will not further interfere and it will allow –he will allow this project to go ahead as planned, or is it already too late? Mr.

Selinger: Mr. Speaker, the project is sup–is proceeding with the support of all mem bers on the government side of the House. The greatest risk to the project is the $550 million of cuts that the Progressive Conservatives wanted to visit upon all Manitobans this year. They wanted to cut streets and highways. They wanted to cut roads. They wanted to cut infrastructure projects. We will proceed with the project. Only the opposition parties will try to stop the project. Health Services (Winnipeg) Regional Access Mr. Reg Helwer (Brandon West): Mr.

Speaker, well, it also seems like there's some MLAs on the other side that are trying to stop the project. Now, Mr. Speaker, last Friday I sought medical care here in Winnipeg. I was turned away from not one but two walk -in clinics because–with no one in the waiting room–because I do not live i n Winnipeg. That's two -tier medicine. It's demoralizing, it's degrading and it's discriminatory. How can this minister try to scare Manitobans with two-tier medicine when it's already here and she put it in place? Hon. T heresa Oswald (Minister of Health ): Mr.

Speaker, I want to say to the member, if he sought care anywhere in Manitoba because he needed it, and for whatever reason he was turned away, it's inappropriate. I'm sorry that that happened and he has my full commitment that I will follow up. Furthermore, Mr. Speaker, I think the member and all members of this House know that we have made a commitment to all Manitobans to provide them with access if they want it to a family doctor and we put a very aggressive target of 2015 in place. We want people to have access to good primary care.

I would include the member for Brandon West in that, and he has my commitment that I'll investigate the situation. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The level's starting to climb up a little bit again and I'm having diffi culty hearing both the questions and the answers. So I'm asking for the co- operation of honourable members to give me that opportunity to hear both, please. The honourable member for Brandon West has the floor. Mr. Helwer: Mr. Speaker, you pay your taxes.

I pay my taxes, but because you live in Winnipeg, you have access to a different level of health care than I do. * (14:20) I have constituents in Brandon that have told me about this, a family with a young son that was turned away from health care in Winnipeg and told to go back to Brandon. How can this minister defend her health- care system? It is a two-tier system.

3274 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2013 What would she say to that young child when he's turned away in Winnipeg and told: go back to Brandon? Ms. Oswald: I'm not certain that the member for Brandon West (Mr. Helwer) was able to hear me over the bombast and bluster, so I will repeat for him that, indeed, I want him, his loved ones to be able to get care wherever they seek it. He has my full commitment that I'll investigate that. My office has been in touch with his office to get some more information to follow up.

But I can assure the member that I believe our commitment is absolutely no more clear than the construction of the Western Manitoba C ancer Centre so the people in Brandon and the surrounding area would not have to come to Winnipeg for radiation therapy. It's the first time in –or in Manitoba's history that we have had radiation therapy outside of Winnipeg; we located that in Brandon. Tha t's our commitment, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Helwer: You know, with my Manitoba Health card, I have access to health care in Calgary, Alberta. I was not turned away because I'm not from Calgary, because I'm not from Alberta.

But I and many of my constituents have been turned away from health care in Winnipeg because we are not from Winnipeg, we are outside the Perimeter. That is two-tier medicine. Is that what this PST increase is going to pay for, poor medical care to citizens of Manitoba? Ms. Oswald: Well, Mr. Speaker, again I want to express to the member, if this is a situation that happened to him last week I express my regret for that, particularly if he was not feeling well or his loved one was not feeling well, and he has my commitment that I'll investigate. Mr.

Speaker, we have told all Manitobans that we want them to have access to a family doctor, everyone in Manitoba, regardless of where they live, to have access to a doctor by 2015. We will continue on the road to that commitment. And, Mr. Speaker, that will be based on medical need, not on one's ability to pay. QuickCare Clinic (Selkirk) Hours of Operation Mr. Wayne Ewasko (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, on April 30th, 2012, the Minister of Health announced a new QuickCare clinic in Selkirk. However, shortly after the ribbon was cut, there was little to celebrate.

The QuickCare clinic is rarely opened during the time designated on the door. Mr. Speaker, the NDP thinks that they can solve a problem by throwing lots of money at it. But you can't spend millions of dollars on a health-care centre when there isn't enough staff to keep it open during the designated times. Can the NDP member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar) table any type of correspondence that he has sent to the Minister of Health asking why– An Honourable Member: Point of order. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order, please. The honourable Government House Leader, on a point of order. Hon.

Jennifer Howard (Government House Leader): I believe, and it is hard to hear in here, Mr. Speaker, but I believe that the member opposite was asking a question of the member for Selkirk. You have previously ruled that that is not allowed in the House and I would ask you to rule accordingly. Mr. Speaker: Official Opposition House Leader, on the same point of order. Mr.

Kelvin Goertzen (Official Opposition House Leader): Well, I don't actually believe that the member had concluded his question, but I can understand why the member–the Government House Leader would want to try to interrupt the question for the member for Lac du Bonnet because he was pointing out a very serious issue about how government makes announcements and about how they think things are going to get better. But then we find out that they're not open, you can't access it, they have two-tier health care because you can't be in Brandon and come to Winnipeg, Mr. Speaker.

I can understand why the government is sensitive. She should maybe listen to the rest of the question and then go back to her Cabinet, go back to her caucus and try to improve things, not try to disrupt things in the Legislature, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the Government House Leader, the level was getting up a little bit, I was hav ing some difficulty hearing, but I, if I understand correctly of what I've heard so far, the member had not actually got to the point of asking his question. He had made reference in the

preamble of his question to a member of this House and, therefore, ha d not got to the point of actually

July 10, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3275 asking the question yet. So if that should occur at that point in time, of course then I would enforce the rules that are in place. So I must respectfully rule at this point in time there is no point of order and then to allow the member for Lac du Bonnet the opportunity to ask his question. And should that occur, then, of course, then I would make a ruling different than I would have made at this point in time. * * * Mr. Speaker: The honourable member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Ewasko) has the floor, and to conclude by asking his question please. Mr.

Ewasko: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for letting me continue. As I was saying, Mr. Speaker, can the member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar) table any type of letter or correspondence that he has had with the Minister of Health, or is he happy just showing up for ribbon cutting? I would like to ask the Minister of Health for her comments on this topic, Mr. Speaker. Hon. T heresa Oswald (Minister of Health): I'm pleased to have the opportunit y. I have to concede that I was quite certain when the member for Steinbach (Mr.

Goertzen) rose to his feet he was going to celebrate the fantastic service of the QuickCare clinic located in Steinbach, but, alas, this did not happen. What I can say to th e member from Lac du Bonnet, Mr. Speaker, is that the Selkirk QuickCare clinic has seen over 3,000 patients to date. We know that the reviews of the work from the nurse practitioners and the nurses has been exemplary. Patients are very pleased. Indeed, we want to expand the hours.

And I would ask the member to refer to yesterday's announcement –a mere 24 hours ago–of us offering free tuition for nurses wishing to pursue studies to be a nurse practitioner and return service in rural Manitoba. Mr. Ewasko: Expand the hours, Mr. Speaker? We're just hoping that the doors will open even for the situated hours that are there already. Can the Minister of Health assure that her NDP member from Selkirk, that he can pass along the information to his constituents who need to take the bus lines or taxis from one end of the city to the other, Mr. Speaker?

They get off the bus, they go to the health–the QuickCare clinic, it's not open, so then they have to wait for a bus or a taxi then to come back and pick them up to take them home. Will the member for Selkirk listen to what the member–from the Minister of Health has to say in regards to how is she going to help him stand up for his constituents, Mr. Speaker? Ms. Oswald: Mr. Speaker, I need to apologize to the House. I have put incorrect information on the record. In fact, the Selkirk QuickCare clinic has seen 9,000 patients to date, not 3,000 patients. I apologize for putting incorrect information on the record.

What I can say to the member is that we are now expanding our workforce of nurse practitioners. We have more nurse practitioners and, indeed, nurses working in Manitoba than ever in its history. We are expanding the hours at Selkirk by filling those placements. Mr. Speaker, isn't this just a teensy bit rich coming from the people that fired a thousand nurses, drove 573 out and just recently planned to have deep, deep– Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order, please. The minister's time has expired. The honourable member for Lac du Bonnet has the floor. Mr. Ewasko: Mr.

Speaker, it's interesting that this Minister of Health continues to spin those fabrications and continue to put it on the record. Manitobans are finished buying those stories. Will the Minister of Health today –she already mentioned 9,000 patients. Imagine, Mr. Speaker, if the quick health- care clinic was actually open the time when–the amount of time that they are saying.

Will she admit today that they failed to maintain the QuickCare clinic in Selkirk and ensure that the residents of Sel kirk and the surrounding areas were provided with medical treatment for minor injuries and ailments, or do I have to now stand up for another constituency, Mr. Speaker? Ms. Oswald: Yes, Mr. Speaker, thank you for the opportunity. It's my privilege to assist the member for Lac du Bonnet, and I would encourage him to share this with his leader. I can table for him, according to all of the nursing colleges in Manitoba, a table that shows these independent colleges showing clearly

3276 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2013 that they fired a thousand nurses –I table for the member. Secondly, in the event that this individual has difficulty, I table a second table to show, indeed, that this is not something made up, as the Leader of the Opposition would say. It doesn't matter how many times they try to spin it, that their goal is to cut nurses. With the absence of being able to use puppets in the House, I cannot more clearly describe to the member, they fired– * (14:30) Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order, please. Order, please.

Seems like many of the members in the House today are in good spirits, which is good to see, but at the same time the level has increased greatly and I'm have a significant amount of difficulty hearing both the questions and the answers. So I note that ther e are a number of members here in the Chamber that seem to want to have private conversations, and might I encourage them to use the loge to my left or my right here for those conversations so that we might continue with question period. The honourable m ember for River Heights has the floor. Children in Care School Attendance Rates Hon.

Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, for two days I've asked the NDP government about the number of children who are in group homes in the care of Child and Family S ervices who are not attending school. The Premier has applied about programs for those who are ready for university. I'm talking about children who are ages 7 to 18 for whom the education in primary and secondary school is needed first. I receive comments daily from people suggesting it's common for children in group homes in care, for whom the government is the guardian, to not attend school.

I ask the Minister of Child and Family Services: How many school -aged children in care were not attending scho ol or only attending part time last year? Hon. Greg Selinger (Premier): I thank the member again for the question, Mr. Speaker. We have extended the requirements for children to stay in school 'til 18 from 16. It hadn't been changed since 1961.

We have p ut additional resources into our schools in terms of co -ordinators to help people continue to be in school until the age of 18, to get access to a variety of programs, whether it's increased emphasis on apprenticeship, life skills, all those kinds of supports that'll allow them to do well in school. We've seen alternative programs being developed such as the Neelin High School in Brandon, right downtown, where young parents have the ability to go there in the daytime to have access to that school, to have access to teachers and instructors and tutors.

We've got a number of high school programs under the Brighter Futures program in Winnipeg, outside of Winnipeg, that allow young people to get help all year round to complete school, to get a full education up to the age of 18. And we will continue to do that. Even though our graduation rate has gone from 73 to 83 per cent, we think there's more progress to be made and we will continue to make it, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Gerrard: Mr.

Speaker, in spite of the fact that this government has a law that the child up to the age of 18 must attend school, the children for whom this government is the guardian who are in care in group homes, too many are not attending school. I have had comments. I give you an example. Only one child in the home attended school regularly, and another missed two years of school, which just happened to be grades 11 and 12. Another concerned citizen said, and I quote, I don't really understand why the kids in CFS shelters don't go to school or day programs to enhance their lives.

And this was followed by the comment that this appears to be the norm. I ask the Minister of Family Services (Ms. Howard) or the Premier: When will she or he acknowledge that this is a big problem and provide a plan to make sure all kids in CFS care are going to school this coming year? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, we do ensure that young people go to school. That's why they have the social workers working with the agencies. That's why there are people paying attention in the group homes.

July 10, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3277 That's why schools have received additional resources to ensure that people attend school and complete their education and stay in school 'til 18. We have over 45 community schools in Manitoba, Mr. Speaker, and each of those community schools has money for a co- ordinator, a community school co- ordinator that goes out and visits homes to find out whether a child should be in school, and if they're not in school, what is the issues that need to be addressed. And that has shown great success around Manitoba.

We have a bill in the Legislature right now –but it's being hel d up–that would validate community schools and define their roles more clearly so that more people will have a chance to have access to community schools. So there are many resources there, there is legislation there, and if the members opposite would support these initiatives, we could do even more. But even the member from River Heights votes against budgets that support young people going– Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, the problem is there's kids for whom this government is the guardian who are not going to school.

This government is breaking the law. The fact of the matter is, and I quote, I had a woman tell me her kids have six friends in care who should have graduated but, sadly, none have. I also learned of a child with Asperger syndrome who's only rarely going to school because he's considered difficult in a group home. It's clearly the responsibility of this government to ensure children in CFS care attend regular school full time or provide an alternative learning pathway. Mr. Speaker, the new school year is less than two months away.

When is the minister going to tell us her plans to make sure every child in care who can has a chance to learn? Mr. Selinger: I do, again, appreciate the comments of–agencies like the Macdonald Youth Services have very specific programs to help children in their care go to school. We've funded those programs for years. Marymound also has programs to help children stay in school , and they've had those programs for many years. They have people that work in Marymound in alternative classrooms with teachers. They provide support on the social and community side to go along with the teachers.

There are special teacher aides trained to work to ensure children have every opportunity to succeed in school. We will continue to find every means possible to ensure young people have a chance to complete their high school and to go on to higher learning opportunities or training opportunit ies in the labour market. And I only have to say to the member opposite, he was a member of a government that cut the programs that supported people that are living on social assistance, supported people living in group homes, supported people that neede d daycare.

All of that 50-50 funding was wiped out when he was in the federal government– Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order, please. Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard). I think I heard him say on a point of order. Mr. Gerrard: Yes. Mr. Speaker: On a point of order. Mr. Gerrard: On a point of order. It's important that this Premier (Mr. Selinger) stick to the point of the question. He should grow up and take –acknowledge that he's been in charge for– Mr.

Speaker: I recognize the honourable member for River Heights, and I've often said to members of this Chamber not to personalize the debate, and that includes points of orders. So I'm asking for the co- operation of the honourable member for River Heights, when he's making his point of order, please don't personalize the debate, and direct your comments to the Chair, please. Have you concluded your point of order? Mr. Gerrard: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Any other advice to the Chair?

I did not hear a reference to any particular breach of a rule of the Assembly here, so I must respectfully rule that there is no point of order. * * * Mr. Speaker: Now, we'll continue with question period.

3278 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2013 Headingley Correctional Centre Bicycle Refurbishment Program Mr. Matt Wiebe (Concordia): Mr. Speaker, I recently had the opportunity, along with the member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway), to attend the wildly successful Happy Days on Henderson festival in Elmwood. One of the most popular elements of this y ear's festival was a draw for 20 refurbished bicycles that were given to neighbourhood children, kids who might otherwise not have a chance to own a bike of their own.

These bikes were provided as part of an innovative addiction treatment program for correctional inmates that not only teaches a valuable skill but benefits youth across the province. We know that restorative justice is an important part of our province's crime reduction strategy, so could the Minister of Justice share more details about this exciting program? Hon. Andrew Swan (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr.

Speaker, I do thank the member for Concordia for a question on justice, and I'm pleased to advise the House of an innovative addictions treatment program that's allowed the Headingley Correctional Centre to donate 190 bicycles refurbished by inmates to Manitobans serving youth. And, Mr. Speaker, since May, the centre has donated 20 bicycles, refurbished, salvaged at no cost or donated, to the Broadway Neighbourhood Centre bike rodeo, 20 to the Happy Days on Henderson festival, and 110 to the WRENCH Community Bike Bazaar at Valour Community Centre, as well as 20 to the Ryerson Boys and Girls Club.

The work has been done by the inmates in the Winding River Therapeutic Community addictions treatment program. This program combines community living, cognitive behavioural therapy, personal accountability and positive reinforcement to help inmates understand the connections between their behaviour– Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The minister's time has expired. Post-Secondary Education Funding Mr. Stuart Briese (Agassiz): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Advanced Education and Literacy (Ms. Selby) made a promise to raise funding for post-secondary institutions by 5 per cent per year for three years.

Budget 2013 cut that funding by 50 per cent. Why did the minister break her promise to post-secondary institutions? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Acting Minister of Advanced Education and Literacy): You know, I just–I think a question like this from the opposition is just unbelievable coming from these people who cut year after year after year after year –am I up to No. 5?–funding to post-secondary education. * (14:40) Mr. Speaker, we have increased post -secondary education.

We have one of the largest, if not the largest, investment and increase this year for post-secondary education, but in other jurisdi ctions there are cuts by 7 per cent. This is an amazing question from this opposition. They have no credibility on post-secondary funding. University College of the North Impact of Funding Cuts Mr. Stuart Briese (Agassiz): Those funding cuts have resulted in UCN being forced to shut down a dozen college programs and lay off critical staff. UCN president Konrad Jonasson says 10 positions will be left vacant and six full -time-equivalent jobs representing eight people will be dropped.

They now offer fewer courses than the former Keewatin Community College. I ask the minister: Why did she fail to anticipate the results of her broken promise? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Acting Minister of Advanced Education and Literacy ): Last year, the University College of the North graduated 200 students, Mr. Speaker. That 'gover' –that opposition, if they had ever had their hands on the levers of government, would have graduated from UCN zero students. Mr. Briese: Mr.

Speaker, one of the programs that UCN was forced to shut down is the student accessibility service, which leaves 74 students with impairments without much-needed support systems. I ask again: Did the minister not anticipate the impacts her broken promises were going to have on these most vulnerable students? Mr. Mackintosh: You know, I know there are –the– it's unbelievable that the opposition would think that

July 10, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3279 they had some high ground, some moral ability to stand up and advocate for post -secondary investments when their record is pathetic, Mr. Speaker. It's almost comical. The comedy festival's over–it's the folk festival. You missed it. Post-Secondary Education Accessibility Funding Mrs. Leanne Rowat (Riding Mountain): I think the question that was raised with regard to student accessibility is a very serio us one, Mr. Speaker.

We have a government that is bringing in legislation that is going to be making Manitoba become more accessible, and then we see a university cut a student accessibility to 74 students in Manitoba. I ask the Minister responsible for P ersons with Disabilities: 74 students are going to be seeing a lack of service ability for–accessibility, and I want to know what her response is. Has she talked to the minister responsible for post -secondary education? Will she ensure Manitobans that they will be able to access these services, Mr. Speaker? Hon.

Jennifer Howard (Minister responsible for Persons with Disabilities ): Certainly, accessibility to services is something that this government takes very seriously. And there is, I think, no greate r symbol of that than the ramp that is on the front of the Legislature. And it's important, I think, to remember that when we took that project, what did we hear from members opposite? It's a waste of money because people with disabilities, they can just c ome in the back door. That is exactly what members opposite said in response to that project.

We expect the University College of the North to honour their commitments to students with disabilities. We expect them to honour their commitment in terms of pr oviding accessibility and we respect that institution to make sure they have the resources in place to do that. Mrs. Rowat: We have a bill before the House that this government is failing to bring forward with regard to accessibility. Now we see another minister reduce funding to a northern university that speaks to student accessibility, Mr. Speaker.

Cuts this government is making to accessibility for persons with disabilities – 74 students are not going to be seeing a service to assist them at university. Ms. Howard: Well, Mr. Speaker, I guess, you know, had they been in power, you wouldn't have to worry about this issue because there would be no UCN for anybody to have accessibility to. This is an issue we take extremely seriously. Every institution in this province has to abide by the Human Rights Code. Every institution has the duty to accommodate people with disabilities. That also applies to the University College of the North.

We expect that institution to put in place the resources to ensure that their responsibilities are met, and I expect that they will do so. Mr. Speaker: Time for oral questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Men in the Kitchen! Mr. Ted Marcelino (Tyndall Park): Mr. Speaker, the Keewatin/Inkster Neighbourhood Resource Council has started a bold new program called Men in the Kitchen! which is helping our neighbourhood become a more closely knit community. This program is particularly helpful for seniors who may not have learned to cook healthy food growing up, but now want to learn for themselves.

Men in the Kitchen! is a cooking course with a focus on hands -on learning. Men learn to cook classic comfort food with healthy ingredients. The men also learn safe food handling, visit with a dietitian and go on a trip to the grocery store to practise reading labels in a smart way. At the end of the course, the men cook and serve a fundraising lunch, which I have attended in the past and enjoyed immensely. This free pro gram welcomes men from all different backgrounds who want to learn new, and often nontraditional skills. But the greatest gift of this program is the way it brings people together.

Men are at higher risk for social isolation and depression. Men are–especially after they retire. An Honourable Member: Are you planning to? Mr. Marcelino: Soon. Men in the Kitchen! brings men together for companionship and community as well as good food. Attending today are some of the fine members of Men in the Kitchen!: H arold Bachinski, Tom Hutchinson, Steve Mateush, John Paton, Wesley Thomson and Harvey Sumka.

3280 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2013 I also ask the House's permission to table the names of the founding members of Men in the Kitchen! into the record. Men in the Kitchen!– Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The member's time has expired considerably, and, I think, if I understand correctly, the member has already read the names into the record. So I'm–if I'm clear on that, then, then I believe the names will be included in the Hansard proceedings of today. [interjection] So there's leave to include the names? [Agreed] An Honourable Member: Can we have leave, please? Mr.

Speaker: Is there leave to allow the member to quickly conclude his member's statement? [Agreed] Mr. Marcelino : I hope this fine organization continues to take root in our community. Thank you. Founding members of Men in the Kitchen!: Harold Kuchenski, Tom Hutchinson, Gordon Krawchuk, Harvey Lysack, Steve Mateush, Bert Oliver, John Paton, Ron Sobotkiewicz, Dave Ter race, Wesley Thomson, Harvey Sumka. John W. Kuhl–Manitoba Agricultural Hall of Fame Mr. Cameron Friesen (Morden -Winkler): Mr. Speaker, today I rise to congratulate John W. Kuhl on being inducted today into the Manitoba Agricultural Hall of Fame.

John Kuhl is an innovative leader and a business person for 40 years in the Manitoba fruit and potato industry. Youngest of seven children, John was raised on a mixed farm at Gnadenthal, which he later farmed with his father. He married wife Lillian in 1949 and had six children. In 1960, John, in partnership with two family members, founded Southern Manitoba Potato Company. With his knowledge and enterprise, Southern Manitoba mastered climate -controlled post-harvest technology for the storage of potatoes.

John has led or made a contribution to almost every major development in the Manitoba fruit and vegetable industry. John has given leadership to Peak of the Market as chairperson. He has worked with researchers across Canada, including Ag Canada, University of Manitoba and the government of Manitoba. In 2000, John was president –or John was president of the Canadian Horticultural Society in 1987 and 1988 and was awarded an honorary life membership in 2000. He's always been active in the community. He has served as chair of the school board.

He founded Winkler Potato Company and the Kuhl Foundation, and today his son Keith is president and CEO of Southern Manitoba Potato Company with Keith's sons Jeremy and Marlon, who are the fifth generation of Kuhl farmers. I thank John for his many contributions to the industry and community. He's a gifted leader who has helped and inspired those around him. Congratulations, John, on your induction today into the Manitoba Agricultural Hall of Fame. * (14:50) 2013 Wellness Institute Farmers' Market Mr. Mohinder Saran (The Maples): Mr.

Speaker, promoting a healthy lifestyle is important in ensuring healthy communities and a healthy province. Crucial to a healthy lifestyle is access to healthy, nutritious food. Next week, the Seven Oaks General Hospital Wellness Institute will open their annual farmers' market for the summer. Located at the Wellness Institute's front entrance side of 1075 Leila, the market will bring fresh, local produce to our neighbourhood every Tuesday until September. The Wellness Institute, also known as the Wellness, is located at the Seven Oaks General Hospital and is Canada's leading medical fitness facility.

The Wellness is dedicated to improving the health of the community through health promoti on, disease prevention, and rehabilitation services. They offer everything from fitness classes to nutrition counselling, and their summer market is just another way in which they promote healthy living in The Maples and beyond. This year, the Wellness Institute farmers' market will include healthy, Manitoba -grown vegetables, gluten-free baking, canned goods, salsas, dog treats and products from Epicure and Pampered Chef. I encourage all members to stop by the market and enjoy some tasty, local treats. Mr.

Speaker, everyone needs nutritious food to be able to lead full, active lives. The Wellness Institute farmers' market is another great way in which the Wellness is working to promote the health and well-being of our communities.

July 10, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3281 Thank you. Winnipeg Harvest Charity Golf Tournament Mr. Cliff Graydon (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, yesterday, Winnipeg Harvest held their annual fundraising golf tournament at the Southwood golf course here in Winnipeg. With deep roots in the community, Winnipeg Harvest is a vital c harity and helps many Winnipeggers and Manitobans gain the food they need when times are tough. Doug Lochhead of Granite Financial served as the host sponsor for the third consecutive year, and numerous other companies got involved and helped to ensure t he success of this event.

I was proud to join Calvin Vaggs of Plains Processors and his associates as we each donated a steer to be auctioned off to help raise more money for Winnipeg Harvest. The meat will be cut and wrapped and is a small gift that I could provide to ensuring a successful event. Local celebrities such as Ace Burpee, who was the auctioneer, and Doug Brown were in attendance, as well as many dignitaries and golfers alike, and the event was a testament to the good work that Winnipeg Harvest does in the community.

Thanks to many generous donations, Harvest was able to raise over $106,000, which will go a long way to making sure that people have enough food. This, again, is a testament to the generosity of all Manitobans, with sponsors coming from as far away as Swan River to support the cause. However, this will not solve the problem completely. Winnipeg Harvest continues to struggle with receiving enough food to keep their shelves full for those that require food and, like many Manitobans, are feeling the pinch, thanks to this government.

Winnipeg Harvest has already extended their entire budget on specific items like baby formula, placing many babies at a serious risk of not receiving the proper nutrition that they need. Manitobans struggle every day with rising costs, such as having to pay more PST, and many Manitobans who are in poverty and receive EIA benefits have not seen these benefits increase under this government. As an MLA, I am proud to stand with a party that is advocating incr easing these rates, and I'm proud to stand with Winnipeg Harvest as they seek to eradicate hunger among the most vulnerable Manitobans. Mr.

Speaker, I would ask that all members of this House join me in congratulating Winnipeg Harvest on raising over $106,000 last night at their golf tournament, and we hope that one day everyone will have enough food. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Children in Care–Education Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, on this 15th day of our emergency sitting, I want to speak of the dire situation many young Manitobans are facing when they're under the care of Child and Family Services.

For the past three days, Manitobans have received no assurances that the children for whom this government is the guardian will actually receive the education they deserve, the education which is mandated by this very same NDP government for all children of compulsory school ages between 7 and 18 years of old–age. The Public Schools Act is clear on the responsibility of every party –parent and guardian of school-age children to attend school.

I'm hearing daily from many Manitobans, caring and concerned Manitobans who work with these children, that it's common for children in group-home care under CFS to either attend school intermittently, part-time or not at all. Child and Family Services is the guardian of the children they've apprehended from their families. If Child and Family Services is not responsible, who is? The Premier (Mr. Selinger) has said it's the role of social workers to ensure that children are in school. Yesterday, he claimed that his government is providing proper funding for agencies and the people working in them to do their jobs.

One must wonder, then, why we hear of so many social workers with such heavy caseloads. With almost 10,000 children in care, no wonder that some social workers are overburdened. Or was the Premier implying that social workers are not doing their jobs? Children in the care of Child and Family Services need an education. They're being left disadvantaged, compared to their peers, simply because this NDP government is not fulfilling its responsibility. The law says these children must be in school and tha t their guardian –in this case, the NDP government–is responsible.

The government, as guardian, is breaking the law when these children are not in school. The government should not be above the law. The NDP government should make sure that

3282 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2013 all school-age children in care are in school or are in an alternative learning environment. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Grievances. No grievances? ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS House Business Hon. Jennifer Howard (Government House Leader): Yes, Mr. Speaker, on government business. Is there leave that the House sit until 7 this evening and Thursday in order to allow for all three sections of the Committee of Supply to continue consideration of departmental Estimates?

Is there leave that from 5 to 7, all formal votes be referred until Monday and that no quorum calls are permitted? Is there leave that from 5 to 7 p.m., in the event that a formal vote is requested on any resolutions or motions, including the last remaining item for a department, the committee is able to move on to the next department listed in the sequence with the formal votes to be held starting Monday? This will mean that Supply will not meet this Friday. Mr.

Speaker: Is there leave that the House sit until 7 p.m. this evening and tomorrow, Thursday, in order to allow for all three sections of the Committee of Supply to continue consideration of departmental Estimates? Is there leave? [Agreed] Is there leave that from 5 to 7, all formal votes will be deferred until Mo nday and that no quorum calls are permitted?

Is leave granted? [Agreed] Is there leave that from 5 to 7 p.m., in the event that a formal vote is requested on any resolutions or motions, including the last remaining item for a department, the committee i s able to move on to the next department listed in the sequence with the formal votes to be held starting Monday? Is that agreed? [Agreed] And that will also mean that the Committee of Supply will not meet this Friday. [Agreed] Thank you. Ms. Howard: Yes, will you resolve into Committee of Supply, please. Mr. Speaker: We'll now resolve into the Committee of Supply as listed on today's Order Paper. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, please take the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) INFRASTRUCTURE AND TRANSPORTATION * (15:00) Mr. Chairperson (Mohinder Saran): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of Committee of Supply will now resume consideration of the last item, resolution 15.1 of the Estimates for the Department of I nfrastructure and Transportation. Are there any questions? Seeing none, I will now put the question. Resolution 15.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $9,553,000 for Infrastructure and Transportation, Administration and Finance, for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 2014. Resolution agreed to. This completes the Estimates of the Department of Infrastructure and Transportation. The next set of Estimates to be considered by this

section of the Committee of Supply is for the Department of Conservation and Water Stewardship. Shall we briefly recess to allow the minister and critics the opportunity to prepare for the commencement of the next department? [Agreed] The committee recessed at 3:03 p.m. ____________ The committee resumed at 3:10 p.m. CONSERVATION AND WATER STEWARDSHIP Mr. Chairperson (Mohinder Saran): Order. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now consider the Estimates for the Department of Conservation and Water Stewardship. Does the honourable minister have an opening statement? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Conservation and Water Stewardship): Since becoming minister about a year and a half ago, Mr. Speaker, I've had the

July 10, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3283 tremendous opportunity to, in particular, launch TomorrowNow-Manitoba's Green Plan. It's a multi-year strategy to set out the priorities addressing both environmental concerns and the need to further develop the green economy here in Manitoba. The green plan actually comprises efforts across about eight government departments, and so I wanted to make it clear it's not just a Conservation and Water Stewardship departmental document at all. We asked for comments from the public as result of the strategy.

We had about 300 people attend a series of presentations, whether they're industry associations, university groups, municipal leaders and others. I met with environmental lawyers, as well, and we received very thoughtful feedback. Do I have to stop there? Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. A formal vote has been requested in another

section of the Committee of Supply. I am therefore recessing this

section of the Committee of Supply in order for members to proceed to the Chamber for a formal vote. The committee recessed at 3:13 p.m. ____________ The committee resumed at 4:20 p.m. Mr. Chairperson: Order. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now resume consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Conservation and Water Stewardship. When we recessed for a formal vote in the Chamber, the honourable minister had just started his opening statement. Honourable minister, ready to continue? Mr. Mackintosh: Just to pick up where we left off, I was just describing generally some of the major events over the last while since I became minis ter. And TomorrowNow-Manitoba's Green Plan was the point that I was addressing when we went in for division. So we had some very thoughtful feedback.

We certainly heard some major themes being addressed in the feedback, both by the attendants at the presentation and by formal submissions. Not surprisingly, but we certainly welcomed the emphasis that Manitobans placed on the need to protect the health of Lake Winnipeg, to address climate change, and I think we can say, as well, we heard of the importance of Manitobans –that Manitobans placed on the need to protect areas, ecosystems and wildlife that those ecosystems contain.

We will be putting out publicly the final document that will comprise the strategy taking us to 2020 in the near future, which will r eflect the feedback that we received and will as well report on progress that we have been making under TomorrowNow. The other major effort over the last year and a half has been the development of the park strategy that was signalled in TomorrowNow. We were able to publicly announce the strategy called Building the Parks Province.

Notably, it sets out a more specific approach to investments from now until 2020–a hundred million dollars to be exact –but it set out a number of initiatives, many moving parts under the headlines: Funding Balance and New Partnerships, Enhancing the Park Experience, New Enticements for Active Families and Stronger Environmental Stewardship. We were able to make certain announcements that followed on this one or in anticipation of it. One was with regard to peat mining in parks.

The other was to propose to Manitobans that we make our park beaches and children's playgrounds smoke -free and, with a strategy to do that, and that was very well received. I know the member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Wishart) has been a very strong advocate, along with many of his constituents, for the restoration of St. Ambroise Park. I was able to visit that park along with Spruce Woods, which were really devastated by the flood of 2011.

As a resu lt of some rejigging of capital investment, we are able to make Spruce Woods the biggest park investment in the history of Manitoba, and I appreciate the comments and the ongoing input from the member for Spruce Woods (Mr. Cullen) as we develop this, becau se the views of visitors and the MLA and area residents are very important to make sure that it responds to real needs. What I heard in the Glenboro area was a recognition of the importance of Spruce Woods to the area economy. And I also heard that from the member for Portage la Prairie and, indeed, the –Mr.

Blight, the reeve of the RM, and others including local Metis reps on the importance of St. Ambroise Park to that area's economy. So it's important to remember that parks

3284 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2013 are not just about ecosystems an d the recreation. They're also about regional economic advantages. St. Ambroise, I understand, is now open and we were able to do the necessary infrastructure for day use there, and the buoys are up now along the beach. And, as well, we were able to do a sweep of the beach to discover what debris lay underneath, which, I understand, there was some. So that was cleared out. So the next stage now is to look at how we can move to overnight services again at St. Ambroise.

The funding for these was helped by our reconfiguring of capital investments from Duff Roblin's viewing tower and visitor centre, which we'll just put on hold for now and revisit that in a few years, because we would like to proceed with it, but those are tough decisions. But it's important, and I think Duff would appreciate that we have to clean up after the flood and attend to the damage of flood, and put it in place –preventative structures where we can, before we start putting viewing towers up, to look at how we deal with flood risks of Manitoba. Just before I conclude, a couple of other major initiatives.

One that came from some of the feedback to TomorrowNow, and that was the launch of the idea of a Lake Friendly Accord to co-ordinate efforts and promote leadership to reduce phosphorus and nitrogen loading to Lake Winnipeg. We know that, if we're going to speak to the jurisdictions around Manitoba, we have to show by our leadership here at home, that we are, indeed, stewards extraordinaire. So we have put together a Lake Friendly Stew ards Alliance of those stakeholders in Manitoba that are stewards, or can potentially be great stewards of our lake.

And that will facilitate information sharing and, really, I think, enhance collaboration and co- ordination among the many, many who are involved and have an interest in promoting the health of Lake Winnipeg. But I think we can improve reporting and accountability, and we can find some efficiencies. We can, I think, all learn better from the science. We can also celebrate success stories. So the inaugural meeting of the stewards alliance took place a couple of weeks ago. And there was unanimous support for proceeding.

So we'll come back in September, at the latest, and we have quite a vigorous list of items that have to be addressed. Finally, just, as part of my opening remarks, I just wanted to talk briefly about the budget that is before us. We certainly have faced the challenge to produce greater cost -effective programming and finding cost savings. And, at the same time, ensure that we are on track to deliver on TomorrowNow and the park strategy, along with other objectives that we share. The Estimates provide for $9.6 million or a 6.2 per cent reduction, in departmental investments and spending.

That includes office consolidations, a focus on more high-risk specialized enforcement and monitoring–in other words, a more risk -based enforcement regime. There's the elimination of 61 now-vacant positions, or at least 60 of them, I understand, are vacant. There are other operating efficiencies, and asking other partners as well to share in our collective responsibility to find cost savings. We've been able to protect critical investments. For example, investments in Lake Winnipeg and, indeed, there's an increase of 5.3 per cent, as one example, for water science personnel.

But drinking water inspections are a priority that's being maintained and, of course, emergency fire response. We've been able to avoid any park or campground closures, as we have seen in other jurisdictions, and we've not eve n, for example, been–we've not able– we've not made any reductions to beach patrols, and we've been able to maintain our investment in the –in our 119– Mr. Chairperson: Order. Order. Honourable minister, the time has expired. We thank the minister for those comments. Does the official opposition critic have any opening comments? * (16:30) Mr.

Larry Maguire (Arthur- Virden): Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. Just a few–I just wanted to thank the minister for his remark –opening remarks, and we will look at–seek global identification, I guess, of the Estimates, if that works for the minister. And I just wanted to, though, take the opportunity to thank all the staff that works in Conservation and Water Stewardship in climate change and those areas for the work that they've done over the past year in these areas on behalf of citizens of Manitoba.

And I know that there's a lot of work to do in some of the areas in regards to still making repairs and upgrades and that sort of thing through some of

July 10, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3285 the parks that have been hit by some of the climatic conditions that we've seen over the last few years. But I think with that, just wanted to make sure that we put on the record that we appreciate the work that they do and thank them for that effort as well. And, with that , we would– proceeding–with the proceeding with the Estimates. Mr. Chairperson: We thank the critic from the official opposition for those remarks. Under Manitoba practice, debate on the minister's salary is the last item considered for the Department in the Committee of Supply. Accordingly, we shall now defer consideration of line item 12.1.(

a) contained in the resolution 12.1. At this time, we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, and we ask that the minister introduce the staff in attendance. Mr. Mackintosh: Sitting next to me is Fred Meier, the deputy minister; accompanying us at the table is Bruce Gray, the ADM of Administration and Finance and acting ADM of Water Stewardship. Jocelyn Baker is the acting ADM of Climate Change and Environmental Protection and executive director of Corporate Policy. Serge Scrafield is next to Jocelyn, ADM of programs division.

Then we have Blair McTavish, the director of Regional Support Services representing the Regional Services and Parks division; and Matthew Wiebe, the director of Financial Services. Mr. Chairperson: Does the committee wish to proceed through the Estimates of the department chronologically or have a global discussion? Mr. Maguire: Oh, yes, I had requested a global discussion. Mr. Chairperson: Thank you. It is agreed, then, that questions for the department will proceed in a global manner with all the resolutions to be passed once the questioning has concluded. The floor is now open for questions. Mr.

Ian Wishart (Portage la Prairie): I'd like to take the opportunity to thank the minister and his staff for the good work that they have done in the recovery from 2011 flood, in particular related to some of the park sites. I know that quite a bit more remains to be done, but at least we're in the process. I specifically wanted to ask the minister about the Pimachiowin Aki process and the corporation. Now that the application has been submitted, does funding continue to flow to the corporation? Mr. Mackintosh: Yes, the–there's an operating grant of $234,000 in the lands division. Mr.

Wishart: So that–thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I thank the minister for the answer. So that will be an ongoing for how long? Is there a timeline to this? Mr. Mackintosh: Yes, I understand that it's to assist in the development and the achievement of the nomination and the designation then, the –or the inscription, as they call it in UNESCO lingo. So it was–and, of course, like any other item in the budget, though, it's reviewed annually, but that was the intention of that operating grant.

And obviously this year it'll be very important because there's some follow-up work that will be done by the UNESCO folks coming over here, I think as early as this fall. I think that's the plan. And so that kind of work will be critical in the months ahead. Mr. Wishart: I thank the minister for the answer to this question. The previous two years there had been a larger allocation there as part of an advertising campaign to raise awareness on The Land that Gives Life campaign and the UNESCO designation. And, as part of that, there was an attempt to do some fundraising to assist the foundation.

Is the minister aware of the–what level of success that had been achieved by that fundraising effort? Mr. Mackintosh: I think, yes, we had a similar question last session, so we'll let the member know if there's been any change to that. I think there has been some additional amounts, and I think that the Canadian Parks and Wilderness Society as well had solicited dollars. So we'll advise if there's any change to that number. And as well, of course, the member can consult the annual reports, but we will certainly provide that as an undertaking to the member. Mr. Wishart: I thank the minister.

I would certainly appreciate an update on th e–on any fundraising that has been achieved from that, because everything that had been until December of 2012 has been reported to The Winnipeg Foundation, as it should be, because that's the agency that was responsible. But we can only find a report of $1,600, which seemed very poor in terms of the amount of money that was spent on this campaign, so I would certainly hope that we did better than that.

3286 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2013 Mr. Mackintosh: Yes, we'll look into that. The awareness campaign, of course, will be The Land that Gives Life awareness campaign. I think the intention was to follow that up with other fundraising efforts down the road once the inscription is attained. I think that the attainment of the inscription is seen as a much stronger signal to Manitobans and other people worldwide that this is an effort that deserves support of a financial nature. But we'll certainly get the numbers for the member. * (16:40) Mr. Wishart: I certainly appreciate that from the minister.

I would hope that the amount that's raised according to the books that I have seen is not an indication of the level of support for this project. Moving on from there, I did want to ask a couple of questions regarding the cleanup from the flood of 2011, and as the minister referenced, on the park's site they did find some objects that certainly required cleaning up. But there's quite a bit of lakeshore that isn't covered by Parks or private individuals; a lot of it is Crown. I was wondering if there was any plan in place to assist with the cleanup of that. Mr.

Mackintosh: Yes, I've been advised that there has been some flyovers and some on- the-ground observations of lands, of lake area lands that were impacted by the flood and that there was some cleanup required, and the focus of that was on anything that appeared to be hazardous. I think, for example, there may have been –yes, septic and propane tanks, I understand, and matters like that. But, if the member does have any other concerns about something that appears to be a hazard or may be a hazard, we'll certainly ask the department to go and look at that. So I think that has been the focus.

If it's been other things like, you know, tree tr unks and so on, I don't think that's been a priority for action. So I think it's sort of a risk -based analysis. So, certainly, we're very keen to hear if there are other areas that have identified risk associated with them. We have not received any complai nts in this regard since our initial work, as I recall. Mr. Wishart: I thank the minister for that answer. There are certainly still items out there.

I would suggest that perhaps consideration could be given to a number to call in to, for people that do i dentify or find an object that can –could be considered a hazard to report it to, as I know that the conservation officers, in some cases, have been notified but don't feel that that's part of their mandate, nor are they equipped to, particularly, if it's i n–still in the water, nor are they equipped to deal with it so, I would suggest that, perhaps, something like that could be advertised as a solution to help with the cleanup process. Mr.

Mackintosh: Yes, we do have an emergency response team and number, but we'll consider the advice of the member and determine whether there's something more that's necessary. And there may be other approaches as well, maybe just a notice or something like that, but I know that our, the natural resource officers are close to the ground in the local areas, and I think by now something would have come to their attention, but at the same time, I do appreciate that some hazardous materials can show up.

They may have been under water for some time and washed up because, for exampl e, we did discover, on the sweep of the beach, that there was some hazardous stuff under the water and so there's always a chance that something could still arise, so we'll consider the advice. Mr. Maguire: While we're on that topic, I guess, I'd just like to ask a few more questions. Just wonder if the minister could just give us an update on where the bid's at in regards to the Pimachiowin Aki process. Mr.

Mackintosh: The decision in Cambodia a few weeks ago confirmed the recommendation of the evaluators that there should be some repair of the process and a better linkage between the natural area and the cultural area criteria and protocols. I think there was some concern expressed that the challenges may, in fact, emanate more from the dichotomy of the processes than the nomination itself.

I think there were a lot of individuals that I heard from who were heartened by the thinking of UNESCO and the recognition that, by using this site, the process could be strengthened for a better bridging between the two processes. So, it may be that this nominated site helps other areas in the world to clarify how both these processes can better work together.

The report that I received stated that the World Heritage Committee acknowledged that maintaining entirely distinct evaluation processes for mixed nominations does not allow for adequate opportunities for shared decision- making processes between the advisory bodies. And so, in that sense, I think there was something positive that came from the nomination process so far.

July 10, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3287 I also am heartened that the UNESCO folks will be coming back to the site sooner than later to have this matter looked at. There were some outstanding questions, and I think those will be addressed very quickly. The expectation is then that thi s nomination will set the new standard for how mixed sites will be evaluated from now on. So I think and, you know, I really appreciate, too–I should put on the record the support of the government of Ontario and the Government of Canada and Peter Kent –he expressed his views on this one and did so in a very helpful way.

Parks Canada has pledged to work with us as this proceeds, but, as well, I think the most important recognition has to be to the First Nations of the area, both in Ontario and in Manitoba, that led this whole process. And I think sometimes that we don't recognize where the real work is coming from and that is from the First Nations, and it's the governments that are actually supporting the First Nations in what they've been doing. But the land-use plans were really an excellent model of First Nation leadership as to how their land should be used in the future.

And just because those land -use plans were put into law by the government of Manitoba, as pursuant to

an act of the Legislature, sh ouldn't take away from the leadership of the people on the land, so I think that's an important point I wanted to put on the record. Mr. Maguire: Mr. Chair, the whole process –just a couple of questions came up from your comments, Mr. Minister. The mixed si tes–can you just explain the mixed sites part of it? Mr. Mackintosh: I understand that when you–when an area nominates a site for UNESCO designation as a World Heritage Site, you enter a nomination in one of three ways.

It's either a–on the basis of the c ulture of that site or, No. 2, the natural attributes of the site or what has developed more recently and what's become a mixed nomination or a mixed site, and that is where a nomination is sought for both the cultural and natural features of the area. * (16:50) Historically, the evaluations were done by different organizations and with different criteria.

So, for example, what I understand from the evaluation of the Pimachiowin Aki area was when you looked at the boundaries under the natural areas criter ia, there were questions as to why it didn't follow natural features, such as rivers because some of the boundaries were determined on the basis of cultural uses–in particular, traplines. And so the natural areas evaluator said, well, why aren't you follow ing the natural contours or the rivers of the land. The cultural evaluation said, this is great. So we had sort of a negative reaction on the one evaluation and a positive on the other.

Well, the two shouldn't be in conflict like that. There should be a recognition that when it's a mixed area, the boundaries should be either way, without taking away from the strength of the nomination as a result. So that's one example as to what I think the problem was, trying to put that in a clear way. So–and by the w ay, the names of the two organizations on the –that came to evaluate, one's called the International Union for Conservation of Nature and the other is the International Council on Monuments and Sites.

And, so as a result of this all, the UNESCO, the world heritage committee, has directed that the advisory bodies, those two, work directly with Canada and with the Pimachiowin Aki partners in what they call an upstream process, in order to allow for shared decision- making processes between them and to present options for change to the evaluation processes for these mixed sites at the next session of the committee.

So change is in the works, and while I'm glad that we were–we're now able to help them reconcile these two different evaluation processes, we have to also attend to ensure that we continue to make a very strong bid. I think that there was clear feedback that we did have a strong bid, and we will shore up anything that can bring this home. Mr. Maguire: Yes, just and the–you also mentioned dichotomy of processes. Is this part of the mixed sites that you were talking about or what is the dichotomy of processes that you're talking about? Mr.

Mackintosh: Yes, I should have made that clear and I apologize, but this was a mixed- site nomination, and there aren' t many of them. There aren't many nominated and there certainly are much fewer who–that are designated. The–they knew all along, the partnership, that this was a difficult process to achieve, that –it–but they decided to take it on, knowing that, indeed, the attributes of the area are both found on the cultural and the natural or ecological sides of the equation.

You just, you know–and to respect the First Nations, they make the case that I think is very strong that you can't separate the two, particularly when you look at this part of the globe. So that was supported by all

3288 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2013 the governments that were supporting the five First Nation governments with this nomination. Mr. Maguire: Yes, the whole process, I guess, Mr. Minister, the number of First Nations are still five that are involved in this process. Bloodvein's been included in it, from my understanding, and I'm wondering if there's –what processes have been ongoing, if any –probably not too many, given that the bid hasn't been accepted yet. But I just wonde red if you could explain a little bit more there.

I know that the cultural side of it's very important and that trying to look at having it so people can actually get to see and feel and be with the cultural processes in those particular locations from those five First Nations units and areas. And so I'm wondering if the–what discussions and what activity has been taking place between the bands and the government in regards to not just the –try to develop the –a better finished application, I guess, but has t here been anything done in regards to planning? I guess there won't be any construction, but in regards to planning for the future development? Mr.

Mackintosh: We should just reiterate what the formal process is to bring everyone together. The board– the Pimachiowin Aki board is really unique in the country. So we have the five First Nation governments represented, the two provinces and, of course, support from the federal government. So they come together regularly. I think they're meeting now this week. And the–so that is how they have put their governance structure together. But we've got a land area here of –what–34,000 square kilometres.

It's the largest conserved area of the boreal shield in North America and it's not just the land mass but, of course, we've got traditional Anishinabe uses of the land and we've got First Nation resource management control in the Pimachiowin Aki areas under the land- use management plans that are now law in Manitoba under the statute of the Legislature and pursuant to regulation. So this work, you know, goes back a long time. I see that–I think by 2002 the ideas for this started to gel, so we have Pikangikum in Ontario; Poplar River, little grand, Pauingassi and Bloodvein in Manitoba.

So they had to put together their case, 300 pounds of documentation went out of here, which included, of course, the land management plans and the–there were economic studies; there was a cultural landscape study, they call it; an ecosystem study, which, of course, is expected; a governance study; comparative studies; and a management plan. Now, we realized that it was also important that the partnership between the partners on the board be complemented by a clear partnership at the political level. So a couple of months ago, I think it was in March, I went to Thunder Bay.

And there we announced with the Ontario government that the governments of Ontario and Manitoba also have a formal partnership to recognize Pimachiowin Aki and to make the necessary efforts to work together to deal with such things as fire management, you know, other resource management and so on. There was a memorandum of understanding on transborder protection and management of the site that was accordingly ratified. So that's the process and that's what's in place. So things are continuing to unfold. We look forward to working with the UNESCO folks.

The next mission that I understand is planned for the fall, and if –at the ministerial level, if I can play any role I certainly will. But again, I think the role of the First Nations is really what should be celebrated and they certainly are key to this going forward. Mr. Maguire: You know, the initial planning included how many First Nations groups? Was it three, and then there was two more added later? Is that correct? Mr.

Mackintosh: We could get the dates as to when everyone joined on, but I do know that –I think Pikangikum, Poplar, little grand and Pauingassi began this back as far as '02, but I think Bloodvein joined officially in 2009. Mr. Maguire: Yes. I guess that was my understanding, that Bloodvein was later. And that would–is that because it's easier to access Bloodvein right now than it would be some of the other areas in regards to being able to participate in the cultural side of the application? * (17:00) Mr. Mackintosh: Yes, I can't speak to the decision-making path of Bloodvein.

I'm advised that there may have been leadership changes, but I don't have any first-hand knowledge of what explains any of the timelines. But I do know they came on and they completed their land -use plan which was approved then by Cabinet, just in the last–2011. Mr. Maguire: So I guess in their land -use plan, my point was that if it's –if, you know, we're doing these for cultural reasons, and we are, I mean, that's a big part of the site application. Would there be–what sort

July 10, 2013 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3289 of cultural activities would be taking place, then, at those locations? And– Mr. Mackintosh: We know that the land -use plans both, whether it was for Bloodvein or for the other communities was based in no small part on cultural considerations, whether it would be sacred sites, other cultural considerations such as economic activities that depend on the land. And so the land-use plans were built on that.

Which, again, reminds us of how you can' t separate, really, I don't think, the natural feature aspects of the area from the cultural areas which really are tied together by both economics and other cultural practices and traditions. So that is what those land-use plans comprise and are the consi derations that went into their development. I know–if the member is maybe talking, as well, about what cultural offerings would be available to visitors, I'm wondering if that's maybe where he's going in the future, but that would depend on the First Nations.

And I know that other–the partnership, the board, has looked at cultural tourism or, you know, aspects like that that could generate additional visits and economic opportunities. And I know, too, that there always has to be a balance between the capacity and the protection of the natural environment and culture with tourism and ecotourism. We know that the area has, indeed, potential. We know that it already has a great reputation already by, for example, canoe enthusiasts. When I had a tour of the area last summer, I heard anecdotes about how popular the rivers were. I saw first -hand how gorgeous they are.

As a former canoer, myself, I could see how attractive those rivers would be because they have beautiful vistas. They don't double back, so it f eels like you're, you know, canoeing half the day and you're ending up just over the hill from where you were in the morning. But, as well, the rocks and the pines are extraordinary, a lot of rapids which make it interesting. Some might find that negative. I think most real canoeists would find that to be attractive.

But, as well, the anecdotes that I have heard from people who have visited there from, even British Columbia, have said that there is nothing like this is that province in terms of beauty. So I think some of the challenge will be how to make the area more accessible to the people of the world without blowing it by inundating the area with tourism. So I think there's been studies done on some of the potential and some of the ranges of visit s that could be attracted to the area.

I know that Poplar has been interested in a–you know, a visitors' centre kind of idea, so that there is something there to look at, and there has been planning stages developed. I know the–from Mr. Bremner, who is a representative on the board of Pimachiowin Aki and is the assistant deputy minister in the department, that the focus on tourist potential is really what they were getting to at this point. They wanted to get the nomination completed, get it in and answer t he outstanding questions. And so we know that they want to turn their mind now to looking at that kind of potential down the road.

But, again, it's –I think we have to be careful in achieving that balance. One of the greatest areas of growth in internatio nal tourism is what is called sustainable tourism, or used to be called eco-tourism. But sustainable tourism really talks more to the need to ensure that local cultures and eco -systems are protected, despite visits, and that's not always an easy task. So t hat'll have to be carefully planned as we proceed ahead. By the way, and I think that, you know, I would certainly encourage that kind of development, whether or not this becomes a UNESCO World Heritage Site.

I think that area of the world deserves to be seen by more people of not just this province but elsewhere. It is really an extraordinary place. There are lakes, huge lakes on that –in that area that I've never heard of until last summer. So I think that as the area becomes more accessible, we'll start to hear those names a lot more commonly. Mr. Maguire: Yes, thanks, Mr. Minister. I just wondered if–how many, you know, in regards to the process of the bid that's there, there will be work ongoing now to upgrade that bid, I'm assuming. Can you give me a time frame as to when that will be?

And have you got staff working on that regularly? Or have you seconded anyone from outside the department to work on that? Mr. Mackintosh: Yes, we've had land -use planners assigned to this and, of course, the ongoing funding commitment. And as well, we've been monitoring the development of the nomination process. And Mr. Bremner's involvement, of course, has been very important. And I understand that the UNESCO

3290 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 10, 2013 mission is planned for as early as this fall and, from that, we expect the amended nomination to proceed on a timely basis. The decision -making for next year will take place, I understand, in June of 2014, or sometime in that time frame. I'm advised that Ontario and Parks Canada are also going to be very inv olved in the process in the months ahead as well. * (17:10) I've got a document here that said the reconsideration is for 2015, so we'll have to just double-check that date. Mr.

Maguire: Yes, that would be good if you could just clarify that, the date for me, then, Mr. Minister, as well. You mentioned the funding proposal going forward on this. There’s been some $14 million, I believe, spent on bids so far. Can you just give me an update on what the expected cost is or how much has been spent to date on the project and what the expected cost might be by the time you get the bid done. Mr. Mackintosh: Yes, the amount that has been invested to date is $7 million, and that includes $2.5 million that has been deposited to the trust fund. Mr.

Maguire: Does that include funds that have been donated by The Winnipeg Foundation? Mr. Mackintosh: Yes, that includes the $2.5 million that The Winnipeg Foundation administers. Mr. Maguire: Yes, thanks. Just to finish off on this area, can the minister indicate to me just what the process is or what work they will do to–in making the changes to rectify the challenges and –with the application before it goes forward again. Mr. Mackintosh: I’m advised the process really is one of evaluators coming to Manitoba and Ontario and then meeting with representatives of the five First Nation communities.

And as well, there are expectations that there will be meetings with the two provincial governments and perhaps Parks Canada. But it really will be a matter of question and answer with the –with those in the communities and governments. Mr. Maguire: Thank you, for that. I wanted to get into a few questions in regards to some of the staffing. I just wante d to follow up because we started off on that and Mr.–my colleague had to – cover up the speaker here–my colleague had to go to the other Estimates, so I appreciate dealing with that issue. Can the minister indicate to me how many Cabinet committees he sit s on?

Is this the list of the Cabinet committees that you sit on, if I could go back on some staffing issues. Mr. Mackintosh: I’m on Treasury Board and Aboriginal Issues Committee of Cabinet, Planning and Priorities Committee of Cabinet. Mr. Maguire: The–with the flow sheet–flow chart that the –of processes in the supplementary documents, there are quite a number of committees that the minister is in charge of here, 10 or 11 of them here at least, though maybe 15. Are all of the – like, each of these committ ees and each of these boards have persons on them.

Is this all available on a website as to who would be the committee members on each of the –Round Table for Sustainable Development, as an example; Ecological Reserves Advisory Committee; all the advisory committees? Mr. Mackintosh: I'm told that–I –most, if not all, would have both annual reports and reports online. But we'll just double -check that and if there are any

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	40-2-72
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	40th 2nd hansardpdf 72.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	f0a1d2ae2f7a580a4b85bd9f95514661c27aff33

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