Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 14 (35th Legislature, 4th Session)

35-4-14

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session - Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 41 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XLII No. 14-1:30 p.m., TUESDAY, DECEMBER 15, 1992 Printed by the Office of the Quee n's Printer. Province of Menitobe ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY,Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayt on, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOS H, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Ste .

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden St einbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfteld Wolseley St. Bon iface Minnedosa Cresce ntwood Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossm ere Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcon a Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Aon La Verendrye Fort Garry St.

Johns Swan River Rupertsland PARTY Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

558 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday,Decernber 15,1992 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mr. Steve Ashton (Thomps on): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Robert Desjarlais, Nelson Pruder, Sue Stirling and others, requesting the Minis ter responsible for MPIC to consider implementing no-fault auto insu rance and bringing in other recomme ndations of the Kopstein report that the government has delayed acti ng on. Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of W. Goodier, J. McKinley, R.

Nemy and others, requesting the government of Manitoba to consider taking the necessary steps to reform the Pharmacare syst em, to maintain its compreh ensive and universal nature and to implement the use of the health smart card. Mr. Kevin Lamoureu x (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Dr. Christine Dearman, Frank Zamkot owich, Les Walterson and others, requesting the government of Manitoba to pass the necessary legisla tion/regula tions which will restrict stubble burning in the province of Manitoba. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mr.

Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for The Maples (Mr. Cheema). It complies with the privileges and the pract ices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? To the Legislative Assembly of the province of Manitoba The petition of the undersigned residents of the province of Manitoba, humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS The principles of health care, namely the universality and comprehensiveness, should apply to the Pharmacare program ; and WH ERE AS the Ph arm acar e prog ram's effectiveness is being eroded; and

WHEREAS in the most recent round of delis ting of pharmaceuticals, approximately 200 have been delisted by the government of Manitoba; and

WHEREAS the strict subm ission deadline for Pharma care receip ts does not take into conside ration extenuating circum stances which may have affected some people; and

WHEREAS pharmaceutical refunds ofte n take six weeks to reach people; and

WHEREAS a health "smart card" would provide information to reduce the risk of ordering drugs which interact or are ineffe ctive, could eliminate "double prescri bing," and c ould also be used to purchase pharmaceuticals on the Pharmacare program-thereby easing the cash burden on purchasers. WHEREFORE your petitio ners humbly pray that the Legisla tive Ass embly urge the government of Manitoba to consider taki ng the necessary steps to reform the Pharmacare system to maintain its comprehensive and universal nature, and to implement the use of a health "smart card." TABUNG OF REPORTS Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship ): Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to table the Annual Report for 19 91 -92 for the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship for the Manitoba Centennial Centre Corporation, the Office of the Queen's Printer and the Manitoba Women's Advisory Council. Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, in the tradition of open government, I would like to table the report of the Manitoba Health Research Council and the Annual Report for the Manitoba Health Services Commission for 19 91- 92. Hon.

James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I am tabling, today, Annual Reports for the Criminal Injuries Compens ation Board, th e Man itoba Police Comm ission and the Victims Assis tance Committee. Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table Volume 1 and Volume 2 of the Public Accounts for 19 91 -92. I would also like to table the Quarterl y Rnancial Report fourth quarter for the Manitoba Public Insur ance Corporati on; also the six month report for

559 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA December 15 , 19 92 the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission; and under the Legislative Assembly Act, I would like to table, as required, a report of amounts paid to members of the Assembly. * (1 335) INTRODUCTION OF BILLS 8111211-The Municipal Assessment Amendment Act Ms. Ro sann Wowc huk (Swan River ): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett), that Bill21 1, The Municipal Assessment Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur I' evaluation municipale), be introduced and read for the first time. Motion presen ted. Ms. Wow chuk: Mr. Speaker, the people from the Swan River area have long been concerned about the operating costs of their municipal airport which is jointly owned. I have been asked by the town of Swan River, and surrounding municipalities, that this bill be brought forward to address their concerns.

The Neepawa airport enjoys the privileges of having their airport exemp t from school and municipal tax, and the Swan River people are asking that the same privilege be extended to them so their airport can continue to operate and service the area. Motion agreed to. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Immigrant Investor Fund Project Ust Tabling Request Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposit ion): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier (Mr. Film on). We had written the Premier in 199 1 dealing with the Immigrant Investor fund, raising a nu mber of concerns to the Premier of the province.

We have seen a number of controversies arise in the province of Manitoba. We have Bob Kozminski and the car wash projects. We have dealings with one Mr. Gobuty that has come to public attention. Even the Premier's name inadvertently was in the material, I understand. pnterjection] No, I mean that si ncer ely-We have , furt her, the Lakeview Development corporation that has been involved in various projects. I have asked the govern ment before for information on the Immigrant lnvestorfund's specific proposals.

I would like to ask the Premier today to table all the projects that his government has approved as part of the Immigrant Investor fund in Manitoba. I would ask the Premier to table the principles of those various projects, and who approved those projects in the government of Manitoba. Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tou rism): Mr. Speaker, as the honourable Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) ,I am sure is well aware, the Immigrant Investor Program is a federal program, a program started back in 1986 , when he was part of the government of the day.

Our responsibility, as a provincial government we brought in regulations back in 1990 at the time in terms of strengthening the program in terms of the econom ic impact on Manitoba. We do an analysis in terms of the econom ic benefits to Manitoba, make cer tain recom mendations to the federal government, who have the final approval in terms of any individual Immigr ant In vestor Programs, whether it is a project specific or a syndicated fund. The information that the honourable member is requesting, certainly information that is readily available, will gladly be made available.

There is certain confidential information that is provided to the two levels of government, obviously, that we cannot release, but any information that we can release without jeopardizing that confidentiality will in fact be made available. * (1 340) Review Tabling Request Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): This charade that is going on between federal and provincial Conservatives on this project is becoming very questionable to us, Mr. Speaker.

We have correspondence signed by the acting deputy minister accepting or rejecting projects, acting deputy minister being one Mike Bessey, who of course is well known to members opposite in terms of his authority and his connections with the provincial government. So let the government not deny that they are not involved in accepting or rejecting various proposals. In March of 199 1, when we asked the Premier to review this material and review these projects, the minister said he will be conducting a full review of these projects. In the fall of 199 2, when again some

0ecEWnber 15 , 19 92 LEGISL ATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANI TOBA 560 controversy came to light, he said he will have a full investigation of these materials. I would ask the minister to table the two investigations that he conducted on behalf of Manitobans. Mr. Speaker, this is a federal provincial program. The federal government has tabled their federal report. Why will this government and why will this Premier (Mr. Filmon) not table the material and the principles involved in their Immigrant Investor fund approval? Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Going back to 199 1, when some concerns were expressed and certainly myself being newly appointed to this portfolio, I had some concerns about certain aspects of the fund as it relates to the role that the federal government was playing, recognizing, as I have already outlined for this House, the rules and the regulations that do exist.

I, at that time, wrote the federal minister responsible in terms of expressing what I saw as our role and how I saw the federal government role and requesting them to clarify that that did in fact concur with what they should be doing. At the same time, we did an internal review of the Immigrant Investor Program, an analysis of all funds done at that particular point in time, but in light of the lack of action that I saw coming from the federal gover nment, this year we instituted a private consulting group to come in and do an audit and a thorough review of the Immigrant Investor Program.

That audit is ongoing right now. In fact, the House is fully aware of that. It has been carried through the media and so on. The recommendations from that particular audit have not been tabled with me yet. I am told-1 have had conversations with the consultants that I can expect them very shortly. As soon as I receive those recommendations, I will gladly table them, make them public, and we will deal with them, Mr. Speaker.

It is because of the concerns that we have had in terms of the role that the federal government is playing in terms of compliance on this program that we have taken the init iative to retain the professional assistance necessary to deal with that very important issue. Application Approval Process Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Well, Mr. Speaker, you will excuse us if we are a little concerned about the third review that this minister has promised us. I would like to ask the minister a very straight question. This is a federal-provincial program.

He keeps throwing the hot potato to the federal government. The federal Tories keep throwing it back to this government. Does the province approve or not approve various projects that go ahead in Manitoba, yes or no? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): I have already outlined the pro cedure to the honourable leader of the Opposition. I will do so one more time. We make a recommendation on applications to the federal gove rnment after revie wi ng the economic benefits, as I have already outlined, the impact to Manitoba's economy in terms of job creation, expenditures in our province.

In terms of the ultimate, final authority of approval of any Immigrant Investor Program, it lies with the federal government. We make a recommendation based on our analysis in terms of economic benefits. The final approval of the project lies with the federal government. I should again re min d the Leader of the Opposition, who was a part of this program back in 19 86 and I believe at that time did not even bring in any rules, regulations and guidelines, we in May of 19 90 tabled Immigrant Investor Program Manitoba guidelines.

We are one of the few provinces that at least have a program in place in doing an analysis of economic impact and benefits to our province, but the final authority lies with the federal government. It Is because of our concern that the job is not being done adequately by the federal government in terms of compliance that we have taken the action to call in auditors to review the Immigrant Investor Program, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I have a new question to the Premier (Mr. Filmon). Mr. Speaker, the province must approve it before it can go ahead, and the federal government must appr ove it.

I wish the government would be straightforward with the people of Manitoba. We have correspondence saying we do not approve this project, signed by Mike Bessey, so I think the government should be honest with the people. If you read the Premier's Estimates from 19 91 , he acknowledges that. Mr. Speaker, I have a new question to the Premier. The government of Manitoba is involved wi th a new project dealing with one of the

561 LEG ISLAT IVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA December 15 , 19 92 proponents, one of the developers at North Portage Corporation dealing with a proposed hotel utilizing the Immi gr ation In vest or fund. This same developer and this same promoter has had a number of potential bankruptcies. A number of properties have gone into receivership. A number of Manitobans, a number of Manitoba families are potentially worried about losing their security, their income, their savings.

I would like to ask the Premier, how can the government be approving one fund for the same developer where there are all these potential lawsuits and risks with the same developer In other projects in Manitoba? * (1 345) Mr. Ste fanson: Mr. Speaker, again, I have to remind the honourable member-and I would like to think that he would understand the rules and regulations-of the fact that this was a program that he was a part of a government at the time when it was introduced. The fact that when he refers to us appr oving or rejec ting, we make that as a recommendation to the federal government.

They make the final decision whether or not to approve any Immigrant Investor Program, Mr. Speaker. In terms of the company that the honourable leader is referring to, they are a part of this audit that is ongoing. I have already indicated I will table the recommendations, and we will deal with the recommendations when that is available, Mr. Speaker. In terms of the larger concem that arose on Friday with the situation with the Sheraton, we have contacted the federal government.

This week, officials will be sent in from both the federal government and the provincial government to deal with that very company and the programs that are currently in place under the Immigrant Investor Program. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the minister has not answered any one of the four questions we have asked. He has not made public the information of the project proposals. He has not made public the principles of the project. He has not told us who approves it. He has tried to throw the hot potato.

The hot potato is going from the Premier to the minister to the federal government-instead of accepting any responsibility at all. Mr. Speaker, my further question to the Premier is: The fund has approved the project at North Portage, the minister has not advised us of that status here today, but we have the minister being quoted in the media saying that they have, quote, approved buying lakeview Sheraton shares with the Bison Fund. Who approved that, Mr. Speaker? Was there money approved, first of all, and who approved that purchase? Mr. Ste fenson: Mr.

Speaker, the original Bison Fund, whic h is a syndicated fund under the Immigrant Investor Program-and I am sure the honourable leader of the Opposition is aware there are two types of funds. There is Project Pacific, and there is a syndicated fund. The Bison Fund would have gone through the process that I have already outlined once or twice-1 will not repeat it-where it comes through our government in terms of my department in terms of the economic benefits to Manitoba and it goes onto the federal government for final approval of the syndicated fund.

In terms of individual projects within a syndicated fund, they come into my department in terms of an analysis once again of economic impact, job retention, job maintenance, whether there are any capital dollars being expended, what the dollars are in fact being utilized for, Mr. Speaker. That analysis was done on that particular investment, and at that time it met the guideline. I should point out to the leader of the Opposition, with any syndcated fund the ultimate responsibility lies with the fund managers. In this case, the Bison Fund would have an investment in the Sheraton.

They will have a series of other investments. Those decisions are made by a fund manager in terms of which investments they feel will get the greatest retum for that particular fund. We do an analysis on each individual application in terms of economic impact in Manitoba, Mr. Speaker. Review Tabling Request Mr. Gary Doer (Leade r of the Opposition): I have a final question, Mr. Speaker. We have the whole issue of the Kozminski projects and the Maple leaf Fund, with directors of one fund being involved in decisions that are in their own companies.

We have allegations in the public arena dealing with Michael Gobuty. We have all kinds of issues dealing with one proposal going forward in the Immigrant Investor fund at the North Portage site and other money being approved for

December 15 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 562 the other site by the government, admitted to in this question. Will this go vernm ent now tab le all the information? He has condu cted two reviews allegedly; will he table those reviews with the public, Mr. Speaker, with this Chamber?

Can we refer that information to one of our committees of the Legislature, the Economic Committee of the Legislature, so all members of this Legislature can ensure that the good name of Manitoba as a good place to invest for Manitobans and others will be protected and safeguarded and not be in jeopardy with the government ... Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I wish just once that the Leader of the Opposition would listen to an answer in terms of how this program functions, that it is a federal program that applies not only to Manitoba but to every province within Canada.

We are a part of the process and I have outlined very clearly what our role is and what the federal government's role is. I have also indica ted to the Leader of the Opposition that we had concerns that the federal government is not performing their function. For those very reasons we called in professional consultants to do a review of the program, to make recommendations to us that we can forward to the federal government to get some action in terms of dealing with the whole issue of compliance. That process is ongoing right now.

As soon as I receive the recommendations I will make them public and we will deal with them. * (1 350) Social Assistance Food Allowance Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health. Yesterday I raised questions about a recent report called An Action Plan for Food Security for Manitobans. The report very clearly indicated that the portion of social assistance received by social assistance recipien ts with infants was woefully inadequate.

It stated that the rate of $84 per month to feed an infant is significantly below what is required, which is $1 34 per month. Mr. Speaker, the minister's health care reform plan states, and I quote: Many of the millions of dollars that Manitobans invest each year treating illness could be used more effectively and tremendous amounts of human suffering averted by more effective management of the key determinants of health. Can the minister tell the House in light of this stated belief with respect to illness prevention whether or not he has contacted the Minister of Family Services (Mr.

Gilleshammer) to push for an increase in food allowances for infants? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, I apprecia te my honourable friend's question, because within the ministry of Health part of the educational program that we provide to Manitobans and in this case to mothers expecting to bring into the world their families, during their term of pregnancy , we provide the kind of information that we think is very necessary to avoid certain hazards such as smoking, such as drinking, to maintain their nutrition, and then after those mothers commence care in the home for their child, we attemptto provide probably some of the best nutritional guidance that is available in Canada through my Healthy Public Policy division in the ministry of Health.

Mr. Speaker, the area that we are attempting to put increased emphasis on in terms of education is the group of young women that my honourable friend refers to, that being young single mothers and often on social assistance. The initiative and the effort is to provide guidance on how they can make significantly enhanced choices around the nutrition of themselves and their child, and I see that as a significant effort which can achieve the results within the current budget, Sir. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr. Speaker, but you can give them all the nutritional guidance in the world.

You can teach them, you can instruct them, you can aid and abet their learning, but if you do not give them enough money for food, they cannot feed their children. Can the Minister of Health tell this House why it is acceptable to this government that infants get inadequate amounts of money to be fed in this province? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, I cannot answer that question because I reject the premise on which it is founded. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr.

Speaker, since the study very clearly showed that it requires $1 34 a month to feed an infant, and the budget of this government for social assistance for a mother who has an infant child is $84 a month, how does the minister suggest

563 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA December 15 , 19 92 she should in fact give a nutritio nally sound diet to that child? Mr. Orchard: Through exactly the process of educ ation, working with nutritionists, through the process that we have in place that we are enhancing and reinf orcing. Now I realize that educ ation is a laughable matter to the member from Radisson (Ms.

Cerilll), but it is not in this government, and we intend to help wher ever possi ble in providing informat ion, counselling, guidance to individuals who need the kind of skills that allow them to within their budgets make proper and appropriate nutritional choices. That may be a laughing matter to members of the opposit ion, but it is not a laughing matter to this government or the citizens of Manitoba, Sir. Freedom Of lnfonnauon Interference Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan) : Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Premier.

We have been advised that the Premier's staff routinely censors and controls inform ation requests under The Freedom of Information Act from the media and others. Can the Premier indicate to this House why, contrary to the spirit and letter of the law, his political staff interfere in the freedom of information process? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): I reject categorica lly the allegation that was made by the member for Kildonan. We have In place a Freedom of Information Act which this government proclaimed when it was left dormant for almos t three years by the New Democrats.

We have obeyed and abided by that legislation to the letter of the law and I challenge him to prove otherwise . Mr. Choml ak: Mr. Sp eaker, why would a desig nated information of ficer be writing to the Premier's press secretary, Barb Biggar, asking for her advice as to the information that was released? I will table a letter to Barb Biggar from that information official indicating that. Mr. Fllmon: A person can consult anyone a person chooses for advice on a matter.

The reality is that this government is abiding by the letter of the legis lation absolutely and whoever asks whom about what matters are able to be released publicly, it is challengeable to the Ombudsman. If you think something has been done wrong, challenge it to the Ombudsman. Mr. Chomlak: Mr. Sp eaker, my final supplem entary to the Premier is: Will the Premier now admit that this happens on a routine basis, and where does his press secretary derive the author ity to be an intermediary under The Freedom of Information Act and to give advice as to information that is being released? • (1 355) Mr.

Fllmon: The only thing that is relevant is whether or not the letter of the law is being maintained, and if anybody- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Fllmon: The spirit of the letter-if you do not believe that it is being abided by, you have methods of redress. You simply take it to the Ombudsman and the Ombudsman will arbitrate. Dozens of cases have been take n there . Unlike New Democrats, we abide by the law. Child Tax BenefH CRISP Program Recipients Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington) : Mr.

Speaker, the Child Related Income Support Program, otherwise known as CRISP, is according to its own brochure a provincial income supplem ent program providing monthly benefits to low-income Manitoba families to assist them with the cost of raising children. Cur rently there are over 6,300 families and just under 15 ,000 children in the province of Manitoba taking advantage of this program. The net income ceiling to eam the maximum benefrt of $30 a month per child currently in legislation is $1 2,384 a year.

My question to the Minister of Family Services is: Will he confirm that by an Order-in-Council dated Dece mber 9, the definition of income now includes the child tax benefit from the federal initiatives Brighter Futures? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, the CRISP program was put in place to give additional funds to what is termed the working poor. The CRISP program takes into consideration the income that working families have through their employment and through other forms of income that are made available to them . Ms.

Barrett: Will the minister confirm that due to the change in this regulation, the definition of income will mean that upwards of half of the children of the working poor in Manitoba will get up to 50 percent less in CRISP benefits, because of the

December 15 , 19 92 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 564 inclusion of the child tax benefit in the definition of income? Mr. Gllleshammer: Mr. Speaker, the regulations take into conside ration the income through all sources that individuals who are accessing that program have. If there is additional income that comes to that family either through employment or other sources, that is taken into consideration in determining the level of benefit that they will receive . Ms. Barrett: Yes, I thank the minis ter for con firming my second question.

Will the minister now, in light of that con firmation that there is upwards of a 50 percent cutback in potential benefits, which are small enough as is, rescind the move made by himself and his government? Will he guarantee that this is just not the first ste p in clawing back resources from the poorest Manitoba families, which this will in effect do, and that the social allowances recipients- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put her questi on. Mr. Gllleshammer: Mr. Speaker, the member is clearly mixing her issues here.

The CRISP benef its are for people who are employed and whose income we consider in awarding those benefits. The question that her colleague raised yesterday in regard to the child tax benefit is an issue that is before the government. I have indicated very clearly in the House this week that we are analyzing the information coming from the federal government and will be making that decision in due course. Health Care System Surgery Waiting Lists Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health.

Yesterday we received the report from the Centre for Health Policy and Evaluation. The report pointed out that some hospitals are more effi cient than others with respect to length of stay. From the study, the minister could draw the conclusion that more efficiency can allow more bed closures. For some procedures the waiting period is currently too long and access is not good enough. The question is an important policy decision for this government.

Will this government use this policy of greater eff iciency to justify more bed closures, or will they convert the greater efficiency to decrease the waiting period for many surgical proc edures in this province? • (1 400) Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I appreciate my honourable friend's question because that report-and I only want to correct my honourable friend modestly on one point. It was not my recommendation that 15 0-200 beds could be closed or retired from service. That was the advice of the scientists who analyzed the data for the eight Manitoba hospital s. Mr.

Speaker, what I suggest to my honourable friend is, that report offers us to do both that which my honourable friend talks about, because clearly in any syst em, and health c are is no exception, if there is an ineffective use of resources within that health care system then it only follows as day follows night that those resources are not being used to provide resolution to the kind of problems my honourable friend address es.

That is why the progres s and the process of reform and change in the health care syste m in Manitoba has the end goal, despite some critics who do not understand change, that the opportunity is there for Manitoba within the existing budget to provide better service and even, Sir, the opportu nity to provide enhanced levels of services within the given budget, if we manage and take advice from scientists, from doctors, fro m nurses, from other professi onals in the system who recognize where we can make better choices on use of the resource.

So I suggest to my honourable friend that both initiatives can flow from implementation of the findings of this scientific study. Mr. Cheema : Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Health tell us, in the Health Action Reform Plan on page 32 there was a promis e that on the waiting list management in orthopedic surgery, cardiov ascular su rgery and angioplasty, oncology and cataract surgery, we would have a report by the end of this month. Can the minister tell us when we will have that report? Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Speaker, I cannot provide my honourable friend with that advice this af ternoon, but I will endeavour to provide that advice to him pos sibly in tomorrow's Question Period, because that issue has been under review and study for the better part of seven or eight months now by the professional group that is hoping to give us advice on how we can proceed in resolution of some of those issues.

565 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA December 15, 1992 Mr. Cheema: Mr. Speaker, can the minister now combine the inference from both studies, if he is going to table it tomorrow, and come up with the answer to decrease the waiting period for many surgical procedures that will enhance their policy of efficiency to cut the delay in surgical procedures? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, that may well be the initiative that we are able to undertake when we combine both studies and a number of others, but I cannot preclude the kind of advice that we may get from Dr.

Naylor and the study group that is looking at the waiting list and the procedures that are mentioned by my honourable friend. I simply give my honourable friend this kind of an assurance, that when we have received sound advice from the professionals we have tended to try, to the degree possible, implement ation of that advice into the way that we deliver health care, with the end goal being something I think all of us share, the preservation and protection of our health care system. Rshlng Industry Lake Winnipegosis Ms. Ro sann Wowchuk (Swan River): Mr.

Speaker, on December 4, I raised with the Minister of Natural Resources the issue of the problem that fishermen on Lake Winnipegosis were facing. That situation has worsened, and fishermen are now pulling their nets and have no income. The minister said on December 4 that he would meet with these people. I want to ask him if the date of that meeting is set and when he plans to be with fishermen on Lake Winnipegosis to address this serious situation. Hon. Har ry Enns (Min i ster of Natur al Resources): Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to advise the honourable member for Swan River that it is my intention to travel to the community of The Pas and on my way back stop in at the community of Winnipegosis and others as well on December 21 and22 . Ms. Wowch uk: Mr. Speaker, I hope that all fishermen are notified about that meeting and that they can all have input. The minister also said that he cannot put fish back into Lake Winnipegosis, however, there is a stocking program that is outlined in here.

I want to ask the minister why, since he is well aware of the situation on Lake Winnipegosis, his department chose not to put any stock back into Lake Winnipegosis, but chose to stock many other lakes when he knows that there is a problem on that lake? Mr. Enns: Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to take that question as notice and , certainly, in meeting with the fishermen on Lake Winnipegosis, I will have some fishery staff available or with me to answer some of these questions. Ms. Wo wchuk: Mr.

Speaker, I am appalled that the minister would not know that there was no stock put into Lake Winnipegosis after the number of times this issue has been raised. When is the minister going to take seriously the problem on Lake Winnipegosis, all of the issues that have been raised many times, and look at a way that these people can continue to make a living, or is he intending to make a welfare state of all of those people on Lake Winnipegosis? Mr. Enns: Mr.

Speaker, it is that time of the year where we are all called upon to exhibit good will towards all persons, and I do not take any credit, but my department had a restocking program in place for Lake Winnipegosis fisheries. 11 was stopped by her fishermen on Lake Winnipegosis. Nutrition Counselling Services Government Commitment Ms. Avis Gray (Cresce ntwood ): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Health stands in this House every day and attempts to lead the people of Manitoba into believing that health reform is under control.

Today, he talked about his department giving the best nutritional guidance to single mothers and children. To the unknowing he sounds convincing, but if you know what is going on in his department, we would be aware that in fact he does not have the staff resources to provide this type of service within his department because since he became minister, the number of positions available to do this type of work has been cut.

Can the minister explain to the House today, how does he explain to mothers and children, how are they going to get this best nutritional guidance-and I quote him from today-if in fact he does not have the resources to carry out that important job? Hon. Do nald Orchard (t.tnlster of Health): Well, Mr. Speaker, I do realize that the ability to deliver that program was diminished as of the by-election this fall.

December 15, 19 92 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 566 Mr. Speaker, through reprioritization of the services we provide to meet the most urgent needs, I think it is fair to say that in today's environments, the demands exceed the ability of any government anywhere in Canada to meet the needs and, therefore , we are into prioritizing, meeting the most ur gent needs. That is su cc essfu lly being undertake n.

I submit, Sir, that in this province we are legions ahead of others in terms of meeting targeted needs for various groups in society that need a better degree of educational su pport, of counselling and other init iatives which can contribute to their wellness and avoid and delay and permanently prevent their necessity to access our health care syste m, as fine as it is, Sir. • (14 1 0) Ms. Gray: Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) tell us why he insists thatthis province is legions ahead, when in fact that very food security report of which people who are part of that report are actually-people in his department have sugg ested that Manitoba lags behind other provinces in providing nutritional services here in Manitoba, so I suggest that his information is incorrect. Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Speaker, I guess that in some areas of investigation maybe that conclusion might be reached, but I would simply like to share with my honourable friend, because I know my honourable friend wants inf ormation, that here is a December 14 , 19 92, Canadian Press wire service out of Victo ria. The topic is a Judith Korbin, who has been retained by the government of British Columbia to examine their health care sys tem. One of the things she says in here is that British Columbia has the third highest rate of growth in health care spending among all provi nces, behind Ma nitoba first, Saskatchewan second.

That is a different piece of information than the one my honourable friend has given today. Ms. Gray: Mr. Speaker, with a supplemen tary to the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchar d): Can the Minister of Health tell us when he will ac tually put into place some prevention services, including nutritional guidance, for these mothers as part of his health reform plan? Because in the initial documents and comm ittees that were est ablished, it was an afte rthought, and it took people such as- Mr. Spea ker : Order, please. The honourable member has put her question. Mr.

Orchard: I hear ringing through my mind certain melodies. How does that go? I forget the words, Sir. Mr. Speaker, I want to tell my honourable friend that I very much valued her sincere and dedicated contri bution to the ministry of Health, but, Sir, to say that she was the only one that ever made a positive suggestion is absolutely wrong.

I have thousands of cari ng professi onals in my department who work diligently every day to provide guidance to this ministry, to provide progressive policies for the reform and change in the health care syste m, and, Sir, for her to take credit for it solely and singly is not accurate . Hospital Boards Staff Nurse Representation Ms. Jud y Wasylycla -Lels {St. Johns) : Mr. Speaker, last March at the Manitoba Nurses' Union annual general meeting, the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) indica ted su ppor t for staff nur se representation on hospital boards.

Since then, little progress has been made; few staff nurses have been appointed or elected to hospital boards. In fact, in one case, in Swan River Valley Hospit al, staff nurses made such a request and this serious proposal was met with an anonymous letter from a board member sayi ng: In my view putting a union nurse on the board would be as beneficial as placing a fox to watch the chicken coop. [inte�ection] I hope the government members are laughing at the ridiculousness of that state ment, and not because they support the atti tude.

I want to ask the Minister of Health if he will indicate to this particular board that he does not condone such a posit ion, and that in fact he clearly su pports the represe ntation of nurse staff on hospital boards. Hon. Donald Orchard {Minister of Health) : Mr. Speaker, I am troubled by those kinds of sta tements being made by my honourable friend which allege certain accusations by anonymous and unsigned letters. I really do not think that I can react to an anonymous state ment by some unsigned individual because one certainly does not know (

a) the source of such comm ents, et cetera. Let me deal directly with the issue that my honourable friend raised, as I have dealt directly

567 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 15, 1992 with those memb ers of the Manitoba Nurses' Union who have chosen to write. Mr. Speaker, I have no objection to any citizen in Manitoba serving on a board of any of our health care institutions. That opportunity, that freedom, that right is open to any citizen of this province, including staff nurses who belong to the Manitoba Nurses' Union. Nothing in the policies and legislation of this government prevents that membership, Sir. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Mr.

Speaker, the minister should try imagining the hurt of nurses in Swan River Valley Hospital when they receive this kind of a note. I want to ask the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) a very straightforward question. Will he clearly send out a directive to all hospital boards indicating that it is a policy of this government to have staff nurse representation on all such boards? Would he put a timetable to it and make sure that that action is followed up? Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Speaker,! guess my honourable friend, in the comfort of opposition, is now creating health policy for the NDP, I might say, health policy that when my honourable friend sat in cabinet and had the ability to send that directive to the boards, did not. The question is: Why not, when she had the chance? Ms. Wasylycla-l.els: Mr. Speaker, my question to this Minister of Health is why this minister can make rhetorical statements on one occasion and refuse to back it up with policies and directions or regulations.

I will ask if he can do at least as much as the provincial government of Alberta has done by sending out a directive to all hospital boards to ensure the election of a staff nurse appointed to those boards by a certain date with appropriate follow up from the provincial government. Could he do at least that mu ch? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, I intend to remain consistent with the policy that was in place when I walked into this office in May 19 88. Canadian Wheat Board Barley MarkeUng Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay).

The Conservative government continues to im plement deregulation philosophies and policies even while the world is falling down around them. The latest casualty, it seems, would be Agriculture Canada and its agencies, including the Canadian Wheat Board. One of the specific recommendations that is being made by the federal mini ster in a report that was released recently was that the Wheat Board would employ a dual marketing system for barley. Barley would no longer be under the exclusive jurisdiction of the Canadian Wheat Board, and that is of deep concern to us. Mr.

Speaker, I want to ask the Minister of Agriculture if he shares that concern with the proposals regarding the marketing of barley under the Wheat Board and what direct action he is taking to ensure that that concern is commu nicated and in fact that that will not be implemented by the federal government. Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agricu lture): Mr.

Speaker, we are talking about selling agricultural products out of western Canada into the United States, and we have been exceedingly successful in that in the last num ber of years, particularly since January 1, 19 89, when articles are starting to come out like this: Free trade is good medicine. It interviews people all across Canada. In agriculture, we have been very successful in penetrating that market. Mr. Speaker-{interjection] You have something against exports? We have built processing plants across western Canada based on selling into the U.S. market.

We have had free trade in agriculture for a long time. It has just picked up in the last few years because there is a greater sense of certainty that we cannot be stopped at the border due to the dispute-settling mechanism in the agreement. The member talks particularly about barley, and we have increased sales of barley to the United States in the last few years. We know there are niche markets in the United States for more and more barley to be sold.

My understanding is the federal government is going to have a study done, determine what those niche markets are, have everybody who has an interest in those markets be present on the board, and an analysis will be done. We will be looking forward with interest to the results of that process. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. • (14 20)

December 15, 19 92 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 568 ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader) : Mr. Speaker, would you call Bill4, please. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Bill 4-The Retail Businesses Sunday Shopping (Temporary Amendments) Act Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Stefanson), Bill 4, The Retail Businesses Sunday Shopping (Temporary Amendments) Act;

Loi sur l'ouverture des commerces de detail les jours feries-modifications temporaires, standing in the name of the honourable member for Flin Flon. Mr. Jerry Storie {FIIn Flon) : Mr. Speaker, this issue has, I guess, so many different aspects that have to be dealt with in the course of debate that I am afraid that I am going to take-{interjection] As I was saying, this debate is such a controversial issue that I think it is going to require a very lengthy review of all of the issues that need to be discussed prior to implementing such a radical change for most Manitobans.

I want to begin by saying that although the government has announced this as a trial period, and perhaps the min ister responsible or some other minister of the front bench can get up and deny this if they feel that it is not accurate, but I understand that legislation is either already being drafted or has been drafted to implement this on a permanent basis. In other words, this trial period is nonsense. It is a farce. It is like virtually everything else this government does. It is a farce. I want that to preface all of the remarks I have to say about what my concerns are. So for the member tor Emerson (Mr.

Penner), the member for Rossmere (Mr. Neufeld), the member, perhaps, for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Rose), the memb er for Arthur-Virden (Mr. Downey), the member for Steinbach (Mr. Driedger), whose constituents are very, very, very concerned about this legislation, let there be no mistake. If any of you are out there selling this as a trial measure, you are misleading your constituents. You are misleading them because this is not a trial. This is not one of those: Do not touch this button; this is a test.

The fact of the matter is that legislation is being drafted, or has already been drafted, to make this a reality in perpetuity in Manitoba until such time as there is a change of government. (Mrs. Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) Madam Depu ty Speaker, the memb er for Pembina (Mr. Orchard) is here today. I promised the member for Pembina, and I intend to keep my word, that I would read into the record for him his particular comment on the importance of Sunday shopping to him and to his constituents.

In 19 87-a nd thank goodness for Hansard, because if we did not have this in Hansard, if this was not written in black and white and published in the Legislative Library of this Assembly, the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) would deny that he said it. Let there be no doubt about that. He would deny it categorically. He would refuse it. He would stand up and belittle anyone who ever said he suggested any such thing. So I want to be very careful, and I want to read in full what the Minister of Health, the then member for Pembina -o pp osition member-said.

First of all, Madam Deputy Speaker, he identified the crux of the problem with this legislation. I will give him credit for that, as I did last night. He said that coming from rural Manitoba he came to it with a different perspective. He said, representing rural Manitoba, because there is no question that SuperValu-and I will name them-as one of the competitors and indeed Safeway, the major chains, would next get their market share from rural shoppers. That is what he said.

Madam Deputy Speaker, emboldened by his grasp of the obvious, he went on to say: But, Madam Speaker, I cannot support wide-open Sunday shopping because of its impact on my constitue ncy . He was conc erned about his constituency. He goes on, he is concerned about jobs in my constituency and the people I am elected to represent and protect and hear as much as possible.

It would have been a good speech if the member for Pembina had been honest, but some five years later, when little has changed in rural Manitoba, save to have the situation deteriorate further, the Minister of Health is going to-perhaps not in good conscience-but is going to stand up with his other urban colleagues and betray rural Manitoba. That is what he is going to do. He is going to stand up with the member for Arthur (Mr. Downey), the

569 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 15, 19 92 member for Morris (Mr. Manness) and betray rural Manitoba. Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to move just for a second to the member for Morris. I had mentioned earlier in my remarks last night the numerous re asons why som eone mi ght oppo se the imp lementati on of full Sunday shoppi ng. I mentioned first of all, in my opinion, the importance of a pause day for people and for families.

I mentioned the importance to the environment of slowing down our unbridled consumerism, because everything we consume, all of the activity, the economic commercial activity that we are going to see on Sunday is using up our resources, is helping to burden our environment further because of the pollution that it causes, because of the resources and the energy that it uses. Madam Deputy Speaker, I do not want to neglect an issue which is important to many Manitobans, including, I would have thought, the member for Rossmere (Mr. Neufeld) and , perhaps even more particularly, the member for Morris (Mr.

Manness), and that is the concer n that has been expressed by numerous religious groups in this province about the impact of Sunday shopping. Madam Deputy Speaker, just for the member for Morris' edification, I want to read something that came to us from the committee for contract with government which was published by the Council of Christian Reform Churches In Canada talking about Sunday shopping. I know that the member for Morris has deep roots and deep connections with a Christian church in his area. I want to know where his principles are going to lie, as the member for Emerson (Mr.

Penner), because what do they say? I want to say that, obviously, the idea that somehow Sunday shopping should not occur strictly for religious reasons was actually thrown out by the courts. They said that may in fact violate other individual rights that are inherent in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, but there is no law against a pause day. There is no law against the suspension of commercial activity as a matter of provincial will, as a matter of public policy. So what does this group say about Sunday shopping ? Rrst of all, I want to read from one of their broch ures.

Now it says, provi sio n of unrestricted shopping hours meets the economic desires of some at the expense of the human needs of others. That is neither freedom nor justice. Freedom and justice require a legal framework which ensures opportunities for each person to be truly human and which protects the weak from the stron g. Madam Depu ty Speaker, I may be paraphrasing here, but "the weak from the strong" does not simply mean in emotional terms. It does not just simply mean in individual financial terms. It may mean in cultural terms and in commercial terms.

It goes on to say that opportunities for groups as well as in dividuals to en gage in public noncommercial activities are severely diminished without a regular frequent nonco mmercial day. Madam Deputy Speaker, it goes on to say that even if you buy, even if you accept the economic arguments for Sunday shopping, you had better think again, because the fact of the matter is the econo mic arguments hold as little weight as any other argument. *

(1430) What do they say abou t the economic consider ations attached to Sunday shopping? Well, they say seven-day shopping weeks may be advantageous for some merchants, but studies have shown that it does not increase the total value of retail sales in the long term. The adcitional cost of operating the store estimated by some to be as high as 15 percent will be borne by everyone in higher prices or reduced service on other days. Unrestricted shopping hours work to the advantage of large malls and chain stores largely at the expense of family-run businesses.

Those are exactly the issues that we have been raising since the government announced this foolish policy. Madam Deputy Speaker, we had a consensus and it was not per fect. Yes, it may have discriminated against large chain stores and may have discriminated against the multinationals. It may have discriminated against the strong, but it protected the weak in two respects. It protected the mom and pop operations, the small conv enience stores, those stores that were originally allowed to stay open so that individuals could have their basic needs met on a noncommercial day.

So they saved those people from committing themselves to seven day relentless work, work, work. It saved their families from having their parents or one of their parents away on a continuous basis for seven days a week. It also saved them from the necessity of incessant competition, because let there be no mistake about it, if you are a small business in

December 15, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 570 Manitoba, in the city of Winnipeg and all of your competitors in the malls, if the shopping centres in your commu nity are staying open, there is an economic imperative that you stay open. So, the day off, the day of pause is long gone for the vast majority of small-business people in the province of Manitoba, and yes, in rural Manitoba despite-{interjection] In 1977 that legislation was passed under the Sterling lyon government.

It was am ended -[i nterjection ] No, Madam Dep uty Speaker, in 1987 it was amended in a very minor way because of a court case which said the 1977 legislation was in violation of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. If the member for Emerson (Mr. Penner) had been here last night, he would have heard me explain that. I will send over for the member for Emerson a copy of the speeches that were made by Norma Price, who was then Minister of labou r, 1977. Madam Deputy Speaker, I do not want to prolong my debate with the member for Emerson.

I want to simply say that in 1987 everyone in this Chamber, including the mem ber for River Heights (Mrs. Carstairs), who said yesterday it was an asinine law, supported it. Everyone, and I read back remarks from the member for Brandon West, the Justice minister (Mr. McCrae), I read back remarks from the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard), and I want to say that the law was not perfect. The member for Emerson should have been here last night because I dealt with that. I have a lot of material to cover, but I want to answer him in one respect.

Madam Deputy Speaker, shopping seven days a week, wide-open Sunday shopping is a phenomenon of North America. The member for Pembina (Mr. Orchard) has roots outside of our country, North America, along with memb ers opposite, including members on this side of the Chamber, and we all know that Sunday shopping does not occur in most other countries of the world. The fact is that in Germany, there is no Su nday shopping. In most countries around the world there is a pause day. In Japan, our competitor, and Germany, our major competitor, there is a pause day.

There is no reason-[interjection] The member for Emerson (Mr. Penner) is going to make me go on even further here. I acknowledge to members in this Chamber that I have been converted on this issue. I at one time believed that wide-open Sunday shopping was inevitable, but I have changed my mind. I believe that leadership can change opinion. I believe that this is one of those issues where, if we simply decide, we can change public opinion about the necessity for Sunday shopping. Madam Deputy Speaker, it is no longer the case that most people are Sunday shopping to get what they need.

What most people are shopping on Sunday for now is what they want, not what they need. In most other countries in the world, including Canada until recently, Canadians could get what they needed and what they wanted in six days. For the sake of the environment, for the sake of the families, for the sake of, I guess, our own sanity I think we can draw some limits. [interjection] I am glad the member for Assiniboia (Mrs. Mcintosh) raises from her seat the question of whether this is what people want.

Madam Deputy Speaker, there are many, many laws on the books, and I am sure if the minister goes through her own department she will find that there are laws on the books that limit people's freedoms. That is part of social organization. I do not want to have to launch into a long lecture to the member for Assiniboia on the obligations of governments, of societies to regulate the behaviour of its members, but that is what we do. At some point you have to assume- [interjection) Well, Madam Deputy Speaker, the minister and her government have certainly done their share of regulating, that is true.

But the fact of the matter is we do regulate human behaviour. Madam Deputy Speaker, in this province we cannot hunt on Sunday. Does that seem such a terrible imposition? I know there are people who want to hunt on Sunday, but we oppose that limit. ThEire are many other laws that im pose restrictions on people. Some people do not like travelling 100 kilometres an hour; they prefer to go 200. We im pose limits on them.

I do not think the member for Assiniboia was being perhaps completely serious, perhaps used her remarks somewhat facetiously, but the fact of the matter is that we do not believe that this is necessary. There is opposition from every quarter. I have quoted from some Christian material that has been sent to us. I wanted to reiterate what I said last night about the opposition that has come from rural Manitoba. I read into the record last night a letter from the village of MacGregor, and I also referenced

571 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA December 15, 1992 the Union of Manitoba Mun icipalities resolution which was passed at their annual convention. Madam Deputy Speaker, I am not going to reread that letter, but I am going to read further from a letter I received or a copy of a letter I received from the president of the Canadian Federation of Independent Grocers, and I remind memb ers opposite again, and the member for Morris is perhaps typical of some of his rural colleagues who enjoy, or whose commu nities enjoy the presence of an independent grocer in their community.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to read this letter for the member for Morris's (Mr. Manness) benefit. It was directed to the Premier (Mr. Filmon) dated November 30, 1992: Re Removal of restrictions on Sunday openings. The Canadian Federation of Independent Grocers views with great concern your decision to allow wide-open Sunday shopping in Manitoba. In his announcement your minister has cited the difficulties which cross-border shopping has created and used the often-heard argument that Sunday openings will contribute to an abatement in this practice.

The Canadian Federation of In dependent Grocers knew what this government should have known, what the Minister of Industry and Trade should have known months ago that Sunday shopping is not the-im posing Sunday shopping on Manitoba is no panacea to solving the problem of cross-border shopping. In fact, if they wanted to use some other jurisdiction as a control group, they could simply have looked at British Columbia. British Columb ia has had wide-open Sun day shopping since 1986 and it has the highest per capita cross-border shopping of any province.

Madam Deputy Speaker, the fact of the matter is that in Manitoba, Statistics Canada reported today that we had the least number of overnight visits across the border since 1990- two years. Why is that occurring? Why are we seeing the decline of cross-border shopping? The simple word is that the value of the Canadian dollar is sinking. That is the reason. •

(1440) That begs the question, what created the interest in cross-border shopping? Was it simply financial, or was it the rhetoric that surrounded the whole debate of free trade and the perception that was created amongst many, many Canadians that somehow now it was okay, that shopping across the border did not cost jobs in Canada? Well, Madam Deputy Speaker, that was a false promise. It was a foolish promise, as was the Free Trade Agreement itself, but that is another debate.

The Canadian Federation of In dependent Grocers goes on to explain in detai l, if the government would have cared to listen, what factors are determinants in cross-border shopping. They include tobacco and alcohol and gasoline prices, which we all knew. It goes on to talk about the effect that Sunday shopping legislation has had in other provinces. It concludes, as we concluded, that in fact- An Honourable Member: And you are concluding. Is that what you are saying? Mr. Storie: -we concluded a long time ago. We did not have to be told, as the member for St. Norbert (Mr.

Laurendeau) did, that in fact cross-border shopping was going to do none of the things this government believes or has predicted are going to happen-nothing. [inte�ection] Madam Deputy Speaker, if the member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) would read the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism's (Mr. Stefanson) introductory remarks, he wou ld find out that cross-border shopping, yes, was an issue. I have talked about who is opposed to this. I have talk ed about the Canadian Fede ration of Independent Grocers and the Union of Manitoba Muni cipalities.

I have also just received a copy of the Swan River Star and Times in which there is an

article about the impact of Sunday shopping on Swan River. I want to read into the record what the chamber of commerce, a Mr. Neely, said, representing the business people in Swan River, about this initiative. He said: The Swan River Chamber of Commerce directors are in total disagreement with Sunday shopping for rural commu nities like Swan River. We have predicted, and the government should know, that rural economies are the ones that are going to suffer, and what is ironic is the cabinet is made up of a majority of rural members, Madam Deputy Speaker.

They have lost their voice, they have lost collectively their voice for rural Manitoba. We are not surprised. I attended a meeting in Antler River School Division in the comm unity of Waskada not a week ago, where some 300 people came out to protest the fact that this government

December 15, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 572 was increasing its contributions to private schools 150 percent, while cutting $800,000 out of the budget of Antler River School Division. Those 300 people wanted to know why the Tory government, who are elected by rural Manitobans, by and large, have abando ned them in educa tion policy, abandoned them in economic policy, abandoned them in terms of their representation in this House. I do not know who is running the show from the elite in the cabinet, but it certainly is not rural Manitobans. They have lost their moral authority somehow in this battle.

I want to continue to press the minister to undertake some base-line studies so that when this trial period, this five-month period is up we will have some objective evidence to use to determine whether in fact we should proceed to full-scale, unlimi ted Sunday shopping by legislation. The fact of the matter is, this government has no intention of doing that assessment. The minister put it on record but it will not be done. It will not be done by anything more than the minister asking one staff member somewhere along the line to give him his impression of the im pact. There will be no objective study.

This government has relentlessly pursued a policy of ignorance when it comes to objective studies. They would rather not know, and that is a tragedy. Madam Deputy Speaker, the fact of the matter is, this government not only has no intention of doing the assessment, they have already drafted the legislation to implement Sunday shopping on a full-time basis. That is how cynical, that is how dishonest this government is. Of course, like all governments, their legislative authority and their moral authority will run out and they will be replaced. I used the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism's (Mr.

Stefanson) remarks last night as a basis for some of my comments. I have taken the opportunity to reread the minis ter's speech, because my first conclusion after reading it was that in fact this was an extremely weak defence of the legislation that has been introduced. In fact, as I reread it, I was struck by the fact that there are virtually no salient points that the minister tries to defend in his statement. In fact, quite the reverse is true.

What this speech is about is an acceptance of a number of criticisms and the min ister's defence of those criticisms rather than some sort of positive statement about what we hope to achieve by this legislation. Madam Deputy Speaker, when I left off I had gone through a number of points. I am not going to repeat them at this point. When I left off I was talking about the minister's suggestion that 97 percent of the respondents to a poll-and apparently we are government by poll now-had said that they would not change their shopping habits with the advent of wide-open Sunday shopping.

They would not be leaving their commun ities. I remind people that those are statements of intention. What we are asking to do is to assess the facts. We still believe that the Rural Development Institute should be the body that does that. They are an independent body attached to a university, with credibility and not only perceived but actual independence.

The government should imm ediately contract with this group to begin so that they can collect base-line data in commu nities like Souris and commu nities like Steinbach and Gimli so we can find out how many jobs we are actually going to lose through this experiment. The member for Brandon West (Mr. McCrae) perha ps would su pport tha t. The Rur al Development Institute is in his commun ity. Let us see whether in fact he has any clout.

He certainly spoke eloque ntly against wide-open Sunday shopping in 1987 and, as I said last night, was telling members involved in the business commu nity in Brandon that wide-open Sunday shopping was not going to be a part of his agenda. Madam Deputy Speaker, I said last night not only that in '87, while I was supporting minimum Sunday shopping, at that time I believed that it was inevitable that we have wide-open Sunday shopping. It has not only changed my mind that it is not inevitable, I do not believe it is necessary or good policy. [interjection] Exactly, and so is the Minister of Justice (Mr.

McCrae) obviously-from 1987. Only he is going the wrong way. I wanted to continue-{interjection) In both cases, as it turns out. Madam Deputy Speaker. I wanted to continue with the remarks that the mini ster put on record. Here is another example of doublespeak from this government when it comes to the im pact of this bill. The minister said on page 394 that he was not really concerned about the im pact of this legislation on families, because he said, and I quote: • . . . Sunday shopping in Ontario had exerted no

573 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 15, 19 92 negative or detrimental imp act on their family, personal or religious life." That is a matter of faith, not fact. [interjection] A matter of opinion, my colleague from Dauphin says. •

(1450) Madam Deputy Speaker, everyone in th is Chamber knows that the less time you have to spend with your family, whether out of financial necessity or other personal commitments, is a sacrifice to them and to yourself in one way or another. The Min ister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Stefanson) belittled family life and the importance that people attach to it by those kinds of comments. The minister then goes on to talk about a couple of provisions which, I suppose, if you were going to accept that this legislation should be in place at all, are good provisions.

One of them is the protection, nominal as it may be, from employees being fired because they refuse to work on Sundays. Madam Depu ty Sp eak er , those provision s are unenforceable. Workers will be let go. They will have their hours diminished because they refuse to work. The second one is the overriding of commercial leases. The legislation allows individuals with commercial leases in malls to go against the trend and to remain closed without penalty which would normally follow as a result of leases that most people in commercial facilities have.

So, Madam Deputy Speaker, I accept those as reasonable amendments, but I do not believe that this bill is necessary. I want to finally move in the min ister's speech to one of the most truly pathetic admissi ons I have heard from a min ister of the government, and particularly an economic minister, in my 11 years. I want to read-{interjection] Madam Deputy Speaker, this has nothing to do with the personality of the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism. I said that as a minis ter of the Crown this was a pathetic statement.

The strongest thing this minister says to defend this legislation, the strongest thing the mini ster says: "It is our hope that this move will help to stimulate Manitoba's economy and will ensure that our province maintains a competitive pace with the economic jurisdictions that surround us." It is his hope. Despite aJ I of the evidence to the contrary, despite all of the negative implications for rural Manitoba, despite all of the negative implic ations for small businesses in the city of Winnipeg, that is what the minis ter concludes in terms of the essence of this initiative. It is his hope.

Madam Deputy Speaker, we need an economic strategy. Is an economic strategy saying, let us shop one more day? Does that make any sense at all? Let us shop till we drop folks. I want to show you how ludicr ous this is. While we are encouraging Manitobans to go out and shop for one more day, the province of Manitoba has lost 25 percent of its manufacturing capacity. Twenty-five percent of the jobs that were going to produce things that other parts of the world would buy have disappeared while this government has been in office. Twenty-five percent of those jobs have disappeared.

Twenty-ftve percent of the goods-producing jobs have disappeared, and this minis ter's solution to Manitoba's economic woes is to go and shop for another day, buy things that were produced somewhere else. Madam Deputy Speaker, that is ludicrous and pathetic. For the minister to stand up and say, it is our economic hope, it is the hope that this will get things going, is just sad. There are so many other problems with this legislation that it is difficult to know where to begin. I have already talked to some extent about the legislative process.

The government not only-1 mean this is quite a pathetic attempt to begin with, but the government has chosen to implement it in a completely dishonest way. On most of the initiative the governm ent gets up and proudly announces that it has done its consul tati on. The Minis ter of Industry , Trade and Tourism (Mr. Stefanson) consults with this group and consults with that group. I ask a very basic simple question. Who did the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism consult with when he announced this initiative? The answer is, virtually no one.

He certainly did not consult with the grocers, he did not consult with small business, he did not consult with the Manitoba chamber, he did not co ns ult with the Unio n of Manitoba Municipalities that represents the literally hundreds of communities outside the city of Winnipeg.

December 15 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 574 What did the government do? Introduced it retroactively, without consultation. Madam Deputy Speaker, that is not good government. Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): That is in contempt of Parliament. Mr. Storie: It is in contempt, as my colleague from Burrows says. It is in conte mpt not only of Parliament, not only of this Legislature, it is in contempt of rural Manitobans. An Honourable Member: Broadway. Mr. Stori e: The member for Broadway; I am going to have to get a map.

The fact of the matter is that the way this legislation was introduced was and is as insulting as its implications. What agenda does this legislation play into? Let me just take one minu te to talk about that. The fact of the matter is that this legislation plays into the agenda thatthe member for Pembina (Mr. Orchard) talked about in 1987. This plays into the seemingly endless corporate amalgamation that is taking place around the world.

This plays into the desires of chains such as Canadian Tire or SuperValu or any of the other major chains to become ever larger at the expense of small businesses and at the expense of small communi ties. That is what they are doing and that plays into the free trade agenda that basically gives corporate North America the rightto do as they wish, where they wish, with whom they wish, at whatever cost they wish. It is an agenda that respects no provincial boundaries, no national boundaries, respects no individual rights, no collective rights, respects only the profit motive.

That is the agenda that this legislation plays into. I am going to make one other prediction, that when this legislation goes to comm ittee sometime next summer, when I am fini shed and have concluded my remarks, that in fact the Chambers of Commerce, the small-business leaders in this province, the people who the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) keeps saying produce all the jobs in this province, are going to be telling him , this is killing us. That is what they are going to be saying. Madam Deputy Speaker, this is wrong. I heard the member for River Heights (Mrs.

Carstairs) yesterday say she was prepared to see this go to comm ittee and wanted the people to speak in between sessions. That is what she said. Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to say that when this actually does get to comm ittee that we have on the record our commitment with or without the help of the government, but preferably when the standing committee sits, to meet in the communi ties that are going to be affected. This is not going to be, take a list of people, ram it through in the middle of the night so that no one understands what we are doing.

This will be an opportunity for people in Morris, the church leaders in Morris, the municip al leaders in Morris, the business leaders in Morris, an opportunity for the people in Lac du Bonnet and Gimli, the people in Portage and around Portage, in Brandon, in A in Flon and The Pas to talk about the impact of this legislation, because they also have a right to express their concerns over this legislation. I can tell you that the chamber of commerce there feels like every other chamber virtually in the province of Manitoba that this is wrong.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to say that the government has made a mistake. The Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) has made a mistake. They have abandoned rural Manitoba. They have abandoned small business. With those remarks, I am prepared to let this go to committee, Madam Deputy Speaker. We want to see what the rest of Manitoba has to say. •

(1500) Mr. Bob Rose (Turtle Moun tain): Madam Deputy Speaker, I have been listening with great interest to the debate on this bill in the last few days. I guess my first response to some of the contributions made by the members on the opposition benches, it was pretty much of a knee-jerk reaction. I have been pleased the last day or so with some of the presentations that have been made, some very thoughtful ones. I particularly would like to comment on the one that we have just heard from the honourable member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie).

I will admit that perhaps my attention did drift a little bit from time to time. I look forward to that speech being printed in Hansard so I will be able to see if I can follow the kind of logic that was presented in that speech and whether or not it was actually relative to the particular bill under consideration. It seems to me that in part of the presentation from the honourable member for Ain Flon he talked about the damage that will occur to the ozone layer by removing the requirement that no store can open

575 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA December 15 , 19 92 with more than four employees on Sunday. Now it seemed to me, of course, Madam Deputy Speaker, that that would perhaps be a fairly long reach in logic, but I think that we will give him the benefit of the doubt. (Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) I think, Mr.

Acting Speaker, that what the honourable member tor Flin Flon was trying to get across to the members of the House when he was expressing his concern about the danger to the ozone layer created by Sunday shopping in Mani toba was that he was really sincer ely expressing concern about where our society is going and whether or not we are becoming a society that is driven by consumerism. In fact, I think one of the phrases that he used in his presentation was unbr idled con sum erism . So it is perhaps reasonable to look at his remarks and to consider them in that light.

It could be that unbridled consumerism caused by allowing a store to open with more than four employees in Manitoba on a Sunday afternoon could very well destroy the ozone layer. I think we all need to very carefully look at his remarks as they have been recorded and be sure that we in fact are not endangering our environment by allowing this particular bill to go forward. I believe he was suggesting to us that perhaps we should all join the suggestion, as made by the member for Radisson (Ms.

Cerilli), that we should all go canoeing on Sunday afternoon and, like the leadership that was provided by our Premier (Mr. Filmon) in the last general election, spend Sunday afternoon in a quiet way on some of our beautiful lakes and streams.

I cannot help but think, given the experience we have all had with some of the recreation that we pursue in our spare time like skidooing or boating with power boats on our lakes, that we might very well end up causing the ozone layer more damage if we all went out and pursued these recreational activities on a Sunday afternoon rather than spending a quiet day in a shopping mall somewhere. Anoth er word that I pic ked out of th at many-worded presentation made by the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) was the word "dictate." I cannot just really remember again until I see Hansard, Mr.

Acting Speaker, but I think he was suggesting that this government was dictating to our citizens and to our businesses that they mu st be open on Sunday and we all mu st go out and shop on Sunday afternoons. Perhaps I have missed something here, but I did not notice the word "dictate" anywhere in the bill. It seems to me, Mr. Acting Speaker, that just the opposite is true. We are not suggesting at all to our constituents or to Manitobans or to businesses in Manitoba-we are not dictating to them that they must be open on Sunday or that they must shop on Sunday. We are giving them the choice.

We are not dictating to them that they must be closed on Sunday or they may not have the opportunity to do some shopping on Sunday. Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): In fact, later on he accused us of letting the people do what they want. Mr. Rose: That is right. The Minister of Consumer and Corpo rate Affairs mentions he later on suggested that perhaps people might want to do as they want. It seems to me, Mr. Acting Speaker, that is just exactly what the thrust behind this bill is to give people the opportunity to do what they want.

Another point he raised was, first of all, that there would be no increase in profits for business, which I think I can agree with. He went on to say that the increased cost for business by being open these extra few hours on a Sunday afternoon will, in fact, be passed on to the cons umers resulting in inflation and higher interest rates and all those things that go along with it. It seems to me, If you follow that logic through to its obvious conclusion, then what we really should be doing is passing legislation that stores should be only open for one day a week.

Just think how we could lower the cost of putting our goods and services on the shelves if we only had to be open one day a week. I mean, we would not have to employ all those people for the other six days. We would not have to worry about heating and air conditioning and those sorts of things. Obviously, our business taxes would be lower because they are based on the amount of business that we do.

So, if it is going to cost more to open for an extra few hours on a Sunday afternoon, then logically we should carry that argument to the other extreme and be only open for one-half day a week, thereby lowering the cost of living for all our citizens. He also, Mr. Acting Speaker, took us on a travelogue, not only across Canada-well, he did not spend too much time in Canada actually. He spent a lot of time in other parts of the world, explaining

December 15 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 576 that in other parts of the world it was not necessary. They have a much more laid-back approach, and it is really not necessary to be opened on Sundays in many of the other countries in the world. He mentioned Germany and Japan. In a paragraph or so later, he mentioned that we should ignore the fact that all the surrounding jurisdictions, like Saskatchewan, like North Dakota, like Minnesota, like Ontario, are all open on Sunday. In response to that, he said, dare to be different than your neighbours.

So I suggest to him that his points that he was making about other countries in the world lose their significance if he is challenging us to dare to be di fferent than our next-door neighbours. One of the other final points that I would like to comment or in the honourable member for Rin Flon's (Mr. Storie) presentation was his attack on-(interjection] I will try and be as brief as the honourable member for Rin Flon-the notion that this will be a threat to family life and no longer will families have the opportunity to play together. On the surface, I suppose, Mr.

Acting Speaker, this argument has some merit, but I think each of us, when we are adopting our own position on all the legislation that comes before this House, look back to our own experience. One of the things that stands out in my mind, when I was a child, and most honourable members will know, particularly the member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli), that was many, many years ago, one of the highlights of my association with my father was the times when we could go to Brandon together and do a bit of shopping.

Part of my reward for tagging along beside Dad and Mom on the day of shopping was a vanilla milk shake, and I still remember those vanilla milk shakes. So I suggest that perhaps when we immediately assume that a shopping tour is something that is detrimental to family life, in fact it may just be the opposite. It may be one of the few times that families are brought together to do things as a group. *( 1510) Mr. Acting Speaker, I mentioned earlier that I was a bit disappointed in the first contributions made by the members from the opposition that seemed pretty much of a knee-jerk reaction to me.

I realize it is the job of the opposition to oppose any particular legislation that is before this House, but there is a little suspicion in my mind that there is a thought there in the opposition benches, recognizing that there is some opposition to incr ease Sunday shopping availability in Manitoba, that they may very well be able to make some political advantage out of this. It simply canno t be a philosophical argument because we only need to look to our province to the east of us, Ontario, where the New Democratic Party is the administration, and see that they have wide-open Sunday shopping.

It seems odd to me that at the imaginary border along the pre-Cambrian shield there should change the thinking so dramatically between the party that is in power, the New Democratic Party in Ontario, and the New Democratic Party in opposition in Manitoba. Mr. Acting Speaker, because there has been a sugges tion made by some of the opposition members, I want to spend just a few moments putting before this Assembly my thoughts on this particular bill that we have before us. Unlike some of the charges that have been laid by some of the members of the opposition, this is not a thrust that comes from big business.

It is not a thrust that has been rammed down the throats of the rural members. It is something that has been very carefully discussed and considered. As a representative of a rural constituency, I, of course, have been very, very much aware of the effect that this may have on our rural businesses In rural Manitoba. Some of the reasons that have been given is that Sunday shopping may reduce cross-border shopping. My personal view on that is that the effect of that will be very, very minor. Oh, there may be some effect.

There may be less cross-border shopping than we have now, but there are so many other reasons why people go, in our case, to North Dakota or to Minnesota to shop, but the fact that the stores may be open in Manitoba on Sunday on a more regular basis will not, I do not think, make that much difference. There are many, many other factors, as has been pointed out before by other members. It is treated partially as a holiday, and it is treated partially because-and I know in our particular area, the town that attracts the most attention for cross-border shopping is Minot.

We are almost equidistant from Minot and Winnipeg, but the choice is between going to Mino t where hotel rooms are more reasonable, meals are more reasonable and, of course, we all know about gas, alcohol and cigarettes being less cost in North Dakota.

577 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 15, 1992 It is quite often that the people choose to go to Minot, first of all, for the experience of being in a different country, and secondly, with the realization that the total cost of their holiday will be considerably less than if they come to Winnipeg. So I do not personally believe that this will affect cross -border shopping to that great a degree. One of the other reasons that we have considered for this introduction of this bill is whether or not it will enhance our tourism opportunities in Manitoba.

Again, I think that it probably will not have that much effe ct, but again it cannot hurt. I think part of the thing that we have to consider -and we have mentioned before that all surrounding jurisdict ions have Sunday shopping-is that when we do go on a trip, and particularly into another country, even going to the United States or, in tum, Americans coming to Canada, they are immediately conscious of being in a different country, In a different society, with different habits. They are very conscious of those diff erences.

If they live in a jurisdiction where Sunday shopping is accepted as a habit, as something that they realize is there, and they come to another jurisdiction where all of a sudden it is not, they sometimes do not have that good an impression of the trip that they have been on. Again I will go back, lo these many years and my own experience, to the time that a carload of us left from the University of Manitoba and thought we would go across the line for a night of revelry and rest and the next day, of course, to contemp late the more important things in life.

We ended up in Minnesota, and, much to our surprise, Minnesota was a dry state . Now that has left a bad taste in my mouth about Minnesota ever since. It was a long time getting over that. Mrs. Mcintos h: No tas te. Mr. Rose : The Min ister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs says, no taste . It was probably better for me and better for my com panions that day that Minnesota was a dry stat e, but that was not why we were going to Minnesota. We were not looking for a dry state. Fortunately for the Minnesota econ omy, it was able to sur vive without my contribution for the next 20 years.

I think the point is still ther e that when you go to a diffe rent jurisdiction and fin d that you cannot do things that you normally do at home, then your reaction and the story you take back to your friends and neighbours is that perhaps it is not a good place to go and visit. So it seems to me, Mr. Acting Speaker, that the introduction of Bill4 is going to help tourism to some degree in Manitoba. Again, I say, I do not think to the extent that warrants its suppo rt. I want particularly, Mr.

Acting Speaker, to speak from a rural comm unity, from the Turtle Mountain constituency where the largest of our towns is no more than 2,000 people, and most of them are much smaller than that. As I said earlier, we definitely have the recognition that the introduction of Sunday shopping may have a detrimental effect on some of the busin esses in our com munity.

I suggest to you, and I speak from experience having been in the retail business for some 25 to 30 years and granted not in the type of re tail business we are talking about but in the farm supply busi ness that was in effect retailing product to cons umers, the experience we had, in our particular farm supply store , is that we were open on Sundays, and interesti ngly enough our major competition jus t down the road were not. Now, if we are to assume that opening on Sundays is going to destroy the competition, we should assu me then that our major com petition down the road would have been destroyed.

Well, it took us 1 0 or 15 years going head to head and at the end of that 10 or 15 years, Mr. Acting Speaker, the market share of both these outlets was very much the same as it had been when we started . The people adjusted, the customers adjusted to the fact that we were open, not nece ssarily to be able to sell more product, but simply as a service to our customers.

The customers of our com petition adjusted to the fact that they would not be open on Sunday, but they still recognized that as long as the compet ition was providing good product, good service and a reas onable price that they would support that particular business. I suggest to you, Mr. Acting Speaker, that exactly the same situation exists now for all businesses in rural Manitoba, that if they continue to provide good service , good product at a reasonable price, people will continue to support those businesses.

I will grant you that there will be a certai n amount of impulse buying, if you like, if the local people take a notion to drive into, in our case it would be Brandon. That would be the closest large centre where this particular bill will have an effect. There might be a

0ecEWnber 15 , 19 92 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 578 certain amount of impulse buying if people drive into Brandon on a Sunday afternoon and go into the stores, and they might buy a few groceries or a quart of milk or a few odds and ends that they might normally buy at home. I still believe that, put another way then, if this is the nail that makes the difference in the survival of a business in rural Manitoba, I would suggest to you that that business is already in shaky ground and that the introduction of this bill will not make that much difference.

Also, In our experience as a retai ler we had-t he co mmon catchword is "workers: We called them people who worked in the business, but we were not workers. I suppose, as management we never really did any work. We were just there all the time. • (1 520) There has been some concern expressed by the portion of this bill that protects workers from the requirement of having to work on Sunday. I suggest to you, Mr.

Acting Speaker, from my experience with our workers and our business when we were open on a Sunday, those who wanted to did and those who did not said-on Saturday afternoon as they walked out the door-we will see you Monday morning. There was never any question at all of those particular people losing their position because they refused to work on Sunday. Why was there no consideration of that? Well, because the people who were there were very capable and hardworking people.

We recognized that they were great contributors to our business, and we had no intention of telling them that just because they did not feel like working on Sunday that we would no longer employ them. I think that is inherent in this particular piece of legislation. What we are trying to do here is to be sure that employers do not use the refusal to work on Sunday as an excuse to terminate an employee for some other reason. I am convinced, Mr.

Acting Speaker, that any employee who is enthusia stic, hardworking, capable and competent will have no problem whatsoever holding his or her position even though they may not wish to work on Sunday. I thought that in the many presentations that I have heard on this particular bill, one of the best was made by the member right down in front of me here, from the honourable member for Rossmere (Mr. Neufeld).

One of the things that he emphasized is that this is permissive legislation, that no one is telling a store or a group of stores that they must be open on Sunday, and no one is telling our citizens that they must shop on Sunday. What this legislation is doing is giving those people who want the opportunity to be open on Sunday, and more importantly, those people in our province who want the opportunity to shop on Sunday have that chance. The Leader of the Second Opposition (Mrs.

Carstairs) yesterday, I think, very eloquently made the point for many, many people in our society now who do not have that great an opportunity in the other six days of the week to shop. It is interesting to me, Mr.

Acting Speaker, that the members of the official opposition, who so very often express great concern about little people as they like to call them, that they should not express a little concern about their opportunity to have a day when they do not have any other pressures of work, or of family, or of having children to take to various activities on a Saturday, that they might have the opportunity to do a bit of unpressured shopping on Sunday afternoon. There are very, very few activities in our province that are prohibited by law.

My view on this bill and my personal position is that I much prefer if these stores were not open on Sunday, but I have to be careful when I say that, because when I say that I am thinking, of course, about the big stores. I am not in there very often at any time. It is not a concern to me whether It is open or not. But then I think, in honesty, I want to buy gas on Sunday. I take this for granted that I will be able to go anywhere on Sunday in Manitoba and if I need a tank of gas I will be able to buy it.

I take it for granted that I can go anywhere in Manitoba on a Sunday and be able to get a restaurant meal or a milk shake or a drink. I take it for granted that I will be able to go almost anywhere in Manitoba on a Sunday and be able to buy other necessities of life like cigarettes or aspirin or newspapers. I take it for granted that I will be able to go anywhere in Manitoba on a Sunday and take

part in golfing or tennis or hiking or so many other activities. Many of those activities I have to pay for. Many of those activities require that people are there working for a living, working on Sunday, taking away the Sunday from their families. I take all those things for granted because I use those things. It seems to me, Mr. Acting Speaker, that it would be most unfair of me to say to a very large, large group that has been indicated to us, a very large

579 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA December 15 , 19 92 group of our citizens who have asked for, who want, who require, who need the opportu nity to do a good part of their shopping on Sunday, it does not seem that it would be fair on my part to stand and vote against that opportunity, particularly on a trial basis, because we are basing this information of course on polls that indicate to us that a great number of our citizens do want that opportunity. So what better way to discover if those polls are correct than by having a trial basis so we may assess, in fact, whether people show up and shop on Sunday?

We can be very, very certain that if they do not the stores will not be open. A number of the opposition presenters have pointed out the position of the Union of Manitoba Municipalities at the recent convention and their resolution on Sunday shopping , which was passed , not unanimously, as the member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar) said, but I think that was probably just a slip of the tongue.

It was passed, and I hope that the members of the opposition will pay equal attention to all the other resol utions that came out of the municipal conv ention, particularly those on Lighten Up, Uttle Boys, on the Environment, that perhaps we do not need to be quite so stringent. I watched, I was present the day that the delegates to the Union of Manitoba Municipalities convention debated that resolution. I noted that it was far from unanimous, the vote, although it carried by a good majority.

One of the people who came to the microphone to debate the resolution very briefly made the point that each and every one of us, when we get up and speak against Sunday shopping, if we in turn buy anything on a Sunday, whether it is any of the things I just mentioned or going into some of the larger department stores , we are hypocrit es. I think that is worth noting. H we are really honestly opposed to Sunday shopping, then all that needs to happen is to have no one go shopping on Sunday, and that will very quickly bring to an end any kind of debate, because the stores simply will not be open. Mr.

Acting Speaker, I also enjoyed the presentation by the member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson). As all members know, that member lives not too far outside the Perimeter Highway. In conversation afterwar ds, I went and pursued some of the points that he had made. In conversation afterwar ds, he pointed out to me that he estimates that over 50, perhaps up to 60 percent of the people who live within a 40- to 50-kilometre radius of Winnipeg work inside the Perimeter Highway, work somewhere in Winnipeg.

He made rather the obvious point that five or six days a week-and one need only watch the traffic flow in the mornings coming into the cities and the evenings going out-these people are inside the Perimeter Highway where this par ticular bill that we are discussing will have the most effect. The sugges tion that , again, opening the stores on Sunday after noon is going to mean that all these people are going to flock back into the city for the seventh day of the week to take advantage of Sunday shopping is ridiculous.

If they are going to shop in Winnipeg, they will do that within the five or six days that they are in there and not return and make a special trip back in on Sunday as well. •

(1530) Mr. Acting Speaker, I know that there are other members of the Legislature who would like to put their thoug hts on record . I appreciate this opportunity to have had my say. I sincerely say, as a member of a rural riding, I do have conce rns about wide-open Sunday shoppi ng, if we want to call it that, but I have to recognize that we already have Sunday shopping in Manitoba.

I have to recognize that the laws that we now have in place are limiting the opportunity for a good portion of our society to have the opportunity to shop on Sunday, and I have to recognize that, when all the su rr oun ding jurisdictions are providing that kind of com petition, perhaps we need to meet that compe tition. So it is with gr eat dif ficul ty and with great reluctance that I support this resolution, but it is certainly my intention, Mr. Acting Speaker, to support this resolution and let us all examine the kind of data that comes out from the trial period. Thank you very much. Hon.

Clayton Manness (Mnlster of Finance): Mr. Acting Speaker, it is a privilege to rise at this point in time. This is the first opportunity I have had in the session to address all the important matters of the day. Let me, first of all, because again this is my first opportu nity, pay tribute to the new and the renewed members of our House. Let me acknowledge the presence of our new member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Pallister) and also from Crescentwood (Ms. Gray)-{interjection] Relevance-o kay, well, the House leader of the Liberal Party (Mr. Lamoureux) does not want me to acknow ledge one of his colleagues.

Of course, I

December 15 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 580 wonder if there is a conflict there . You see, this is what happens. These are the su btleties of a pote ntial leadership challenge where you have the House leader of the Liberals, the aspiring leader, asking me not to give credit to his colleague who may also be an aspiring leadership candidate of the Liberal Party. So, Mr. Acting Speaker, I cannot win. It seems that in every opportunity that I rise in this House, I have members opposite heckling me. It must be because at times I heckle from time to time in Question Period. Mr.

Acting Speaker, let me, through you, also pay regards and tribute to the Speaker who, no doubt, will have to make many rulings over the course of the next number of days and weeks, some of which I will agree with, maybe a few of them I will not. Nevertheless, his role and your role, of course, are so important to the smooth working of this House. The issue is Sunday shopping. Let me say, as I have said to anybody who has sought my opinion, this is a sensitive issue. Of course, that is the reason why the government has desired to bring in a bill that was temporary of nature. We will call it a pilot.

There are no foregone conclusions around the bill particularly, so it is a sensitive issue. I acknowledge that. Furthermore, I acknowledge how it is when you are in oppositi on, you like to play politics with sensitive issues. We are all politicians and for that none of us need apologize. We are policy-Mr. Acting Speaker, I have never had so much reaction from that side of the House for a long period of time, I kind of enjoy it. It is certainly going to stretch out the comments around Bill 4. Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): How long do you have to wait? Mr.

Manness: I do not have to wait at all, in response to the member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman). Mr. Acting Speaker, let me say very clearly and concisely that it is like a former member of our party said one time, and of cou rse he was quoted here as recently as a week ago, yes. [interjection] Is it again today? When you are in opposition, of course, you can at times have it both ways. Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwoo d): All the time. Mr. Manness: Well, the member for Elmwood maybe even says it better, maybe all the time. Mr.

Acti ng Speaker, we have a situation where I believe it was the Leader of the NDP, the member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) stated that, well, the Whips were off. His members were free- the member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) chuckles, or was that the Leader of the Liberal Party? I think it was both parties. The Liberals came first, of course, and the NDP followed that. The Whips were off, the members were free to search their consciences and their hearts, and they were free to do what they wanted on this issue. That was a very magnanimous gesture made by the Leaders of the opposition parties.

I dare say, from time to time, I wish if I were in a position to talk philosophically about the democratic syste m, I think there need to be times when parties do not feel so reined in by whatever reasons drive them to reach consensus within their own caucus rooms. I do not have difficulty identifying with Leaders of parties in opposition when they remove the Whips. Mr. Acting Speaker, I have to ask the question, on what basis do they remove the Whips? Do they do it on the basis of principle, or do they do it on the basis of the fact that this is good politics because I have some division within the ranks?

Is it principle or is it pragmatis m? Which is it? Mr. Plohman: Do not worry about it, it does not concern you. Mr. Manness: Well, the member for Dauphin says it does not concern me. I am one of 57 who have been elected to this House. It does concern me because I am a student of the dynamics in the House. I am a student of the dynamics within political parties, not only my own but, of course, of parties opposite. So do not shut me out from studying, I say. [inte�ection] That is right, never stop being a stu dent, I think is what the Leader of the NDP is saying.

On this par ticular issue, ther e are gr eat sensitivities and there are matters of principle, and there are matters of what members think should drive them to be on one side of the issue or the other. What I find strange-and I do not use the term any more-what I find strange , Mr. Acting Speaker, is sort of the sancti monious approach that some members opposite are taking, particularly the member for A in Flon (Mr. Storie). I have not been here to hear all the speeches to this point, and I regret that because I am sur e I have missed an awful lot of interesting debate .

But the sanctimonious manner in which the member for Flin Flon was pontifica ting with respect to how those of us who represent some larger portion of the Christian com munity, I think, to use his term, should take our lead in searc hing our own souls and our own minds with respect to this issue.

581 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANIT OBA December 15 , 19 92 That is what drove me to my feet to speak. I had a hard time stom aching that. As a matter of fact, if I had had a full meal at lunch time, I would not have been able to stomach it. I do not think I could have kept it down. Here we have the member for Flin Ron using these words "abandoning,• "betrayi ng, • these verbs that are full of action and dripped with meaning, and he says to me and he says to others , what, in essence he was saying, do your constitu ents think when you are breaking with them? That is what he seems to be saying. Mr.

Acting Speaker, let me say for the record : I have had no calls to date on the issue. I have had two letters, but I have been in this business a long time. I know fully well that this is an issue on the minds of a significant portion of my consti tuents. The fact that I have not been inundated with letters or phone calls does not lead me to believe for one second that this is not an important , sensitive issue on the minds of many of my consti tuents. Let me say furthermore, Mr.

Acting Speaker, if the NDP in their approach were coming purely from the doctrine, from the Christian doctr ine, from the Christian-Judaic principle found in one of the Comman dmen ts, thou shalt not work on the Sabbath, I could list en to a lot more of their arguments, but they do not. Some do. I have not been here for the whole presentation to this point in time. There may have been mem ber&-! have not read the text that come s from that, but again I make my assessment on the basis of the party, and the party has not come forward with that.

H they did, I am telling you, they would make it much more difficult for me. *

(1540) I know , for instance, on other issues, prayer in the public sc hool syst em, the Lord's Praye r in the public school syst em, I have not heard any party, certainly any of the opposition parties, stand up to maintain the Lord's Praye r in the public school syste m. No, I have not. As a party, I have not. Certainly there are probably some individuals within the parties opposite who would maybe want to see that maintained.

I know there are a significant number of memb ers in this bench who want it maintained, as a matter of fact, probably pushed that issue as far as we could within the context of human rights legislation in this country to deal with that. Mr.

Ac ting Speaker, I sit here as a student, and I am not going to be carried away by the argument from the opposition benche s, chastising me as a represe ntative of a constituency where there are a significant number of people who subscribe to the Commandment that says, thou shalt not work on the Sunday -or on the Sabbath, not Sunday, the Sabbath-yet at the same tim&-{inte�ection}-On the Sabbath, I am to be corrected-the same group of people who would tell me to listen to my constituents on that will not collec tive ly, at least, issue a state me nt with respect to sc hool prayer. So, Mr.

Acting Speake r, I am looking for cons istency. I can tell you, I have not researched the record Nke the mem ber for Flin Ron (Mr. Stori e). I have not researched the record to see what I said, or what every other member longstanding in this House has said on issues like this. I under stand the member for Pembina (Mr. Orchard}- An Honourable Member: Has made wonderful spee ches. Mr. Mannns: -has made wonderful speeches. Well, he does on most iss ues make wonderful spee ches, so that does not come as a surprise to me.

I have not researched the record to determine wh ether the NDP has been con sistent or inconsistent on these moral iss ues, on these issues, but I know one thing. I have not seen consistency between thi&-ff the members want to put it in the context of being a religious or a spiritual issu e-as compared to other issues, I have never seen consistency. So then, the member s, when I hear the ring or the decryi ng by the member for Rin Ron that I am abandoning or I am somehow betraying my constitu ents, it rings holl ow. Does it hurt? Well, of cou rse, it hurts. I think it does.

I wonder if there is one member in this House, if we accuse them of betrayi ng or abandoning their constitu ents, if it would not hurt. I do not think any of us would be human if we were accused of betra ying our citizens becau se we all sense that we are loyal to our consti tuents, Mr. Acting Speaker, so I have to cat egorically reject almost every sta tement made by the member for Rin Ron (Mr. Stor ie). Of course, I have rejected everything the member for Rin Ron has said for ele ven y ears, because he and I have been in this House that long togethe r.

I think the NDP are saying, and I belie ve they are sayi ng, and they will correct me if I am wrong, that

December 15 , 19 92 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANI TOBA 582 they are opposed to Bill 4 because they are interested in the well-being of the work er. I would have to think that that is the main plank of their argumen t. I am troubled with that also. I must admit I do not want to see anybody, absolutely anybody , forced to work on Sunday, and to that end, I am convi nced, as I listened to the member for Ross mer e (Mr. Neufe ld), this is enabling legislati on.

Of course, the que stion is, well, what subtleties can be brought to bear to force that worker to have to work on Sunday, and that in itself is possibly troubling. I think that we are going to have to ensure that if society, after the trial periods, calls upon its Legis lators to support Sunday shopping on a permanent fas hion, Mr. Acting Speaker, we will have to ensure legisla tive ly that, even though this is enabling legislation, no worker is forced to work on Sunday. I think that is very important. I mean I look around. There was a time ce rtainly within my family. I can remember growing up on the farm.

We never worked on our farm till probably into the 70s, or late 70s, ac tually early '80s, and that was only most occasi onally. Now, because of this job I have here, I find myself working on Sunday a lot more than I would like. I think it is terrible to expect people to work on Sunday, if indeed it is against their will, so we are going to have to make absolutely sure that there is some protection around this particular area. Mr.

Acting Speaker, I am reminded, I also acknowledge the fact, and I have had long discussions with our minister that is sponsoring this bill, I do not believe in itself it will be a panacea. It is not going to lead to great volumes of additional disposable income that are going to provide a significant increase in shopping activity Neverthe less, society seems to want to change. I wish, quite frankly, in many respects, it did not want to change. And members opposite can say that my const ituents, my business people in Morris-they use that example-and Carman, St.

Pierre, Sanford and La Salle, and I could go on and on, these business people are going to be ultimately, pot entially the losers. I sought higher views on this and by that I mean my constituents, and I also asked them to tell me what per centage of the public within these co mmun ities are pur chasing outside of the co mmu nity today. Mr. Acting Speaker, I was asto nished to find a sign ificant portion are purchasing today and have been for a significant number of years in the city of Winnipeg at this present time on Sunday. Yes, they are waiting in lines.

They are being served by what the present law calls for, or at least thre e weeks ago what the present law called for, and that was being served at either McDiarmid Lumber or Beaver Lumber or Safeway by four em ployees, and that by virtue of most of the commentary that has come back to me that the public has decided at this point in time, how it is and who it is they will be loyal to in a purchasing sense. and that those habits or the sharing of where they do their purchasing is not going to change significantly , if at all, under the prov ision of Sunday shopping. So, Mr.

Acting Speak er, that, I would have to say, is the vast majority of the people that I represent. I have to take that into acco unt. I have to take into accou nt the fact that society seems to want to, for some reason , have greater access, much greater access to the unfettered mark etplace , if only through the hours available to it. So it is on that basis then that I come forward to the House, even though this is a sensitive iss ue to me and support the governmen t's bill, and I will vote accordi ngly. So, Mr.

Acting Speake r, I thought it was pretty important that a few of these remarks be put onto the record and also thoug h to spell out to the members opposite if they think they are going to make great inroads politica lly into those ridings that are represented on this side of the House because of the stance they are taking, I am here to tell you that they will not.

Because on the judgment day, and not in the Christian sens e, but on the judgment day which will be the next e lection, people will still look to see how it is that this gove rnment has managed the affairs of the pro vince, to what extent it has increased taxes, which has been none in the last five years, and held the tax line which has been more the accom plishment. • (1 550) (Mr. Bob Rose, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) They will also take into account the degree to which this gove rnment has been removed from sc andal.

It will also take into account the extent to which stability has been brought and economic dev elopm ent potential has been brought forward to this province, and it is on that basis that this gove rnment will be judged. In my constitu ency, it

583 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANIT OBA December 15 , 19 92 will be judged on the basis to the extent the Minister of Highways (Mr. Driedger) has been able to share his capital program and in the constituency pnte�ection] Mr. Acting Speaker, the members are talking about Highway 75. That is right, that is on one basis we will be judged and we know what the members opposite wanted with Highway 75. I remember the member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman), who was, I believe, the last Minister of Highways . He shut 75 down once it hit St. Adolphe. [inter jection] I needed that break, Mr.

Acting Speake r, and I thank the mem bers opposite for provid ing me an opportunity. Mr. Acting Speaker, it is on that basis that my constituents ultimately will judge the perform ance of the gove rnment and indeed the member, presently myself. I point out to the member s opposite, my constituents will not follow the NDP position. They know fully well why the NDP is trying to make this an issue and indeed why the Liberals are too. Yet, let me think about what the Liberals have been saying. What have the Liberals been saying as a matter of fact? It is still the one-hand approach? Yes. Mr.

Acting Speaker, if indeed there are some member s who vote one way and some the other way, then we will know that their Leader was true to the commit ment that the members were free to vote . I know when we were in opposition one time, the Whips were not on, Mr. Acting Speaker. It was a teachers' pension bill, if I remember rightly. Of course, there were diff erent points of view on our side and that was reflected-[interjection) Yes, and sea t bel ts before th at. That was in 19 82 . pnte�ection] Strike that from the record, Hansard. pnterjection] Was it '84? I stand to be corrected . I remember that.

I thought that was early in the new gove rnment, but it was '84, I am reminded by the member for Dauphin. (Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Acti ng Speaker, in the Chair) Mr. Acting Speak er, with those few remarks I think it is i

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-4-14
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 4th hansardpdf 14.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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