British Columbia Hansard — Tuesday, October 27, 2009 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) (H1027pm-02) (H1027pm 02)

H1027pm-02

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

First Session, 39th Parliament o FFicial rePort o F Debates of the Legis Lative a ssemb Ly (hansarD) the honourable bill bari So FF, SPeaker iSSn 0709-1281 Tuesday, October 27, 2009 Afternoon Sitting Volume 6, Number 2

Pro Vince o F britiS h colu Mbia (entered c onfederation July 20, 1871) lieutenant -Go Vernor h is h onour the h onourable Steven l. Point, obc First Session, 39th Parliament SPeaker o F the leGiS latiVe a SSeMbl Y h onourable bill barisoff eXecutiVe council Premier and President of the executive c ouncil ......................................................................................................h on.

Gordon c ampbell Minister of State for intergovernmental r elations ....................................................................................................h on. n aomi Y amamoto Deputy Premier and Minister of Finance .......................................................................................................................... h on. c olin h ansen Minister of State for the o lympics and a ctn ow b.c. ....................................................................................................... h on.

Mary Mcn eil Minister of a boriginal r elations and r econciliation .....................................................................................................h on. George a bbott Minister of a dvanced e ducation and l abour Market Development ............................................................................ h on. Moira Stilwell Minister of a griculture and l ands ...................................................................................................................................h on.

Steve Thomson a ttorney General ...................................................................................................................................................... h on. Michael de Jong, Qc Minister of c hildren and Family Development and Minister r esponsible for c hild c are ............................................h on.

Mary Polak Minister of citizens' Services and Minister r esponsible for Multiculturalism and the Public a ffairs bureau ...........h on. ben Stewart Minister of c ommunity and r ural Development ................................................................................................................h on. bill bennett Minister of e ducation and Minister r esponsible for early l earning and l iteracy ......................................h on.

Margaret MacDiarmid Minister of energy, Mines and Petroleum r esources .....................................................................................................h on. blair l ekstrom Minister of State for Mining ................................................................................................................................................h on. r andy h awes Minister of environment .......................................................................................................................................................h on. barry Penner Minister of State for c limate a ction ...........................................................................................................................................h on.

John Y ap Minister of Forests and r ange and Minister r esponsible for the integrated l and Management bureau ........................... h on.

Pat bell Minister of h ealth Services ...................................................................................................................................................h on. k evin Falcon Minister of h ealthy l iving and Sport ...................................................................................................................................... h on. ida c hong Minister of h ousing and Social Development .................................................................................................................h on. r ich c oleman Minister of l abour ................................................................................................................................................................ h on.

Murray c oell Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General .....................................................................................................................h on. k ash h eed Minister of Small business, t echnology and e conomic Development ................................................................................ h on. iain black Minister of t ourism, c ulture and the a rts ...................................................................................................................... h on. k evin k rueger Minister of t ransportation and infrastructure ...................................................................................................................h on.

Shirley bond leGiS latiVe a SSeMbl Y l eader of the official o pposition ...................................................................................................................................................c arole James Deputy Speaker .................................................................................................................................................................................... l inda r eid a ssistant Deputy Speaker .............................................................................................................................................................c laire t revena Deputy c hair, c ommittee of the Whole .......................................................................................................................................... h arry bloy c lerk of the l egislative a ssembly...................................................................................................................e.

George MacMinn, obc, Q c c lerk a ssistant ..................................................................................................................................................................................r obert Vaive c lerk a ssistant and l aw c lerk................................................................................................................................................. ian D. izard, Qc c lerk a ssistant and c lerk of c ommittees ................................................................................................................................. craig h.

James c lerk a ssistant and c ommittee c lerk .................................................................................................................................... k ate r yan-l loyd Sergeant-at-a rms .................................................................................................................................................................................

Gary l enz Director, h ansard Services ............................................................................................................................................................Jo-a nne k ern a cting l egislative l ibrarian .......................................................................................................................................................... Peter Gourlay l egislative c omptroller ....................................................................................................................................................................... Dan a rbic

alP habetical liS t o F MeMberS a bbott, h on. George (l) ........................................................................ Shuswap a ustin, r obin (nDP) ................................................................................ Skeena bains, h arry (nDP) ....................................................................Surrey-n ewton barisoff, h on. bill (l) ............................................................................Penticton barnett, Donna (l) ................................................................ c ariboo-c hilcotin bell, h on.

Pat (l) ..................................................... Prince George–Mackenzie bennett, h on. bill (l) ...................................................................k ootenay e ast black, Dawn (nDP) ................................................................n ew Westminster black, h on. iain (l) ..................................................... Port Moody–c oquitlam bloy, h arry (l) ......................................................................burnaby-l ougheed bond, h on.

Shirley (l) ...........................................Prince George–Valemount brar, Jagrup (nDP) ................................................................ Surrey-Fleetwood c adieux, Stephanie (l) ...........................................................Surrey-Panorama c ampbell, h on. Gordon (l) .........................................Vancouver–Point Grey c antelon, r on (l) ..............................................................

Parksville-Qualicum c hong, h on. ida (l) ..................................................... o ak bay–Gordon h ead c houhan, r aj (nDP) ........................................................... burnaby-e dmonds c oell, h on. Murray (l) ....................................Saanich n orth and the islands c oleman, h on. r ich (l) ...........................................

Fort l angley–a ldergrove c onroy, katrine (nDP) .............................................................. k ootenay West c oons, Gary (nDP) .........................................................................n orth c oast c orrigan, k athy (nDP) ..................................................... burnaby–Deer l ake Dalton, Marc (l) .............................................................. Maple r idge–Mission de Jong, h on.

Michael, Qc (l) .............................................. a bbotsford West Dix, a drian (nDP) ............................................................Vancouver-kingsway Donaldson, Doug (nDP) ......................................................................... Stikine e lmore, Mable (nDP) ................................................... Vancouver-kensington Falcon, h on. k evin (l) ..........................................................Surrey-c loverdale Farnworth, Mike (nDP) ............................................................

Port c oquitlam Fleming, r ob (nDP) .......................................................... Victoria–Swan l ake Foster, eric (l) .......................................................................Vernon-Monashee Fraser, Scott (nDP) ............................................................a lberni–Pacific r im Gentner, Guy (nDP) .........................................................................Delta n orth h ammell, Sue (nDP) .................................................... Surrey–Green t imbers h ansen, h on. c olin (l) ..................................................

Vancouver-Quilchena h awes, h on. r andy (l) ..................................................... a bbotsford-Mission h ayer, Dave S. (l) .................................................................... Surrey-t ynehead h eed, h on. k ash (l) ...................................................... Vancouver-Fraserview h erbert, Spencer (nDP) ..................................................Vancouver–West end h ogg, Gordon (l) ............................................................... Surrey–White r ock h organ, John (nDP) .......................................................................

Juan de Fuca h orne, Douglas (l) ..............................................c oquitlam–b urke Mountain h oward, r ob (l) .....................................................................r ichmond c entre h untington, Vicki (ind.) ..................................................................Delta South James, c arole (nDP) .........................................................Victoria–b eacon h ill k aragianis, Maurine (nDP) ........................................e squimalt–r oyal r oads k rog, l eonard (nDP) ........................................................................... n anaimo k rueger, h on. k evin (l) ..................................... k amloops–South Thompson kwan, Jenny Wai ching (nDP) ...........................

Vancouver–Mount Pleasant l ake, t erry (l) .....................................................k amloops–n orth Thompson l ali, h arry (nDP) ..........................................................................Fraser-n icola l ee, r ichard t . (l) .......................................................................burnaby n orth l ekstrom, h on. blair (l) .......................................................

Peace r iver South l es, John (l) .........................................................................................c hilliwack l etnick, n orm (l) ........................................................k elowna–l ake c ountry MacDiarmid, h on. Margaret (l) ..................................... Vancouver-Fairview Macdonald, n orm (nDP) ....................................c olumbia r iver–r evelstoke Mcintyre, Joan (l) ..................................................West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Mcn eil, h on.

Mary (l) .................................................Vancouver–False creek Mcr ae, Don (l) ............................................................................. c omox Valley Mungall, Michelle (nDP) ..........................................................n elson-creston Penner, hon. barry (l) ............................................................c hilliwack-h ope Pimm, Pat (l) ..........................................................................Peace r iver n orth Polak, h on.

Mary (l) ...............................................................................l angley Popham, l ana (nDP) ...................................................................Saanich South r alston, bruce (nDP) ................................................................

Surrey-Whalley r eid, l inda (l) .............................................................................r ichmond e ast r outley, bill (nDP) .................................................................. c owichan Valley r outley, Doug (nDP) ............................................n anaimo–n orth c owichan r ustad, John (l) ........................................................................... n echako l akes Sather, Michael (nDP) ......................................... Maple r idge–Pitt Meadows Simons, n icholas (nDP) ...................................

Powell r iver–Sunshine c oast Simpson, bob (nDP) ...................................................................c ariboo n orth Simpson, Shane (nDP) .....................................................Vancouver-hastings Slater, John (l) ..............................................................boundary-Similkameen Stewart, h on. ben (l) ........................................................... Westside-kelowna Stilwell, h on. Moira (l) ...................................................... Vancouver-l angara Sultan, r alph (l) .....................................................

West Vancouver–capilano Thomson, hon. Steve (l) ........................................................k elowna-Mission Thorne, Diane (nDP) .................................................c oquitlam-Maillardville Thornthwaite, Jane (l) .......................................... n orth Vancouver–Seymour t revena, c laire (nDP) .................................................................... n orth island van Dongen, John (l) .............................................................a bbotsford South Y amamoto, hon. n aomi (l) ................................. n orth Vancouver–l onsdale Y ap, hon.

John (l) .............................................................r ichmond-Steveston liS t o F MeMberS bY riD in G a bbotsford-Mission .............................................................h on. r andy h awes a bbotsford South .....................................................................John van Dongen a bbotsford West ...................................................... h on. Michael de Jong, Qc a lberni–Pacific r im ..........................................................................

Scott Fraser boundary-Similkameen .....................................................................John Slater burnaby–Deer l ake ................................................................... k athy c orrigan burnaby-e dmonds ......................................................................... r aj c houhan burnaby-l ougheed ............................................................................ h arry bloy burnaby n orth .............................................................................. r ichard t . l ee c ariboo-c hilcotin ........................................................................Donna barnett c ariboo n orth ................................................................................ bob Simpson c hilliwack ...............................................................................................

John l es c hilliwack-h ope ...................................................................h on. barry Penner c olumbia r iver–r evelstoke .................................................. n orm Macdonald c omox Valley.................................................................................... Don Mcr ae c oquitlam–b urke Mountain .....................................................Douglas h orne c oquitlam-Maillardville...............................................................

Diane Thorne c owichan Valley ................................................................................ bill r outley Delta n orth ......................................................................................Guy Gentner Delta South ...............................................................................Vicki h untington e squimalt–r oyal r oads .....................................................Maurine k aragianis Fort l angley–a ldergrove ...................................................h on. r ich c oleman Fraser-n icola........................................................................................ h arry l ali Juan de Fuca .....................................................................................John h organ k amloops–n orth Thompson .............................................................t erry l ake k amloops–South Thompson ............................................ h on. k evin k rueger k elowna–l ake c ountry ...............................................................n orm l etnick k elowna-Mission .............................................................. h on.

Steve Thomson k ootenay e ast .......................................................................... h on. bill bennett k ootenay West ............................................................................ k atrine c onroy l angley.......................................................................................h on. Mary Polak Maple r idge–Mission .....................................................................

Marc Dalton Maple r idge–Pitt Meadows ........................................................Michael Sather n anaimo ......................................................................................... l eonard k rog n anaimo–n orth c owichan ......................................................... Doug r outley n echako l akes ..................................................................................

John r ustad n elson-creston ........................................................................Michelle Mungall n ew Westminster ..............................................................................Dawn black n orth c oast....................................................................................... Gary c oons n orth island .................................................................................. c laire t revena n orth Vancouver–l onsdale ........................................h on. n aomi Y amamoto n orth Vancouver–Seymour .................................................

Jane Thornthwaite o ak bay–Gordon h ead ............................................................ h on. ida c hong Parksville-Qualicum ..................................................................... r on c antelon Peace r iver n orth ................................................................................

Pat Pimm Peace r iver South ...............................................................h on. blair l ekstrom Penticton................................................................................... h on. bill barisoff Port c oquitlam ..........................................................................Mike Farnworth Port Moody–c oquitlam .............................................................h on. iain black Powell r iver–Sunshine c oast ................................................. n icholas Simons Prince George–Mackenzie .............................................................h on.

Pat bell Prince George–Valemount ...................................................h on. Shirley bond r ichmond c entre ............................................................................ r ob h oward r ichmond e ast ................................................................................... l inda r eid r ichmond-Steveston .................................................................... h on. John Y ap Saanich n orth and the islands ........................................... h on.

Murray c oell Saanich South ................................................................................ l ana Popham Shuswap ...............................................................................h on. George a bbott Skeena .............................................................................................. r obin a ustin Stikine .......................................................................................

Doug Donaldson Surrey-c loverdale .................................................................h on. k evin Falcon Surrey-Fleetwood ...............................................................................Jagrup brar Surrey–Green t imbers ..................................................................Sue h ammell Surrey-n ewton ................................................................................. h arry b ains Surrey-Panorama ..................................................................Stephanie c adieux Surrey-t ynehead ...........................................................................

Dave S. h ayer Surrey-Whalley.............................................................................. bruce r alston Surrey–White r ock ....................................................................... Gordon h ogg Vancouver-Fairview ............................................. h on. Margaret MacDiarmid Vancouver–False creek ........................................................ h on.

Mary Mcn eil Vancouver-Fraserview ..............................................................h on. k ash h eed Vancouver-hastings ....................................................................Shane Simpson Vancouver-kensington .................................................................Mable e lmore Vancouver-kingsway..........................................................................a drian Dix Vancouver-l angara ............................................................. h on. Moira Stilwell Vancouver–Mount Pleasant .........................................

Jenny Wai ching kwan Vancouver–Point Grey .................................................h on.

Gordon c ampbell Vancouver-Quilchena ..........................................................h on. c olin h ansen Vancouver–West end ................................................................Spencer h erbert Vernon-Monashee ...............................................................................eric Foster Victoria–b eacon h ill .......................................................................c arole James Victoria–Swan l ake.........................................................................r ob Fleming West Vancouver–capilano ............................................................. r alph Sultan West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ........................................................

Joan Mcintyre Westside-kelowna ...................................................................h on. ben Stewart Party Standings: l iberal 49; n ew Democratic 35; independent 1

CONTENTS t uesday, o ctober 27, 2009 a fternoon Sitting Page Routine Business introductions by Members ..................................................................................................................................................... 1613 introduction and First r eading of bills ................................................................................................................................ 1613 bill 19 — l obbyists r egistration a mendment a ct, 2009 h on.

M. de Jong Statements (Standing order 25b) ......................................................................................................................................... 1614 r esearch and development in wood products industry D. r outley a l e tmanski S. c adieux h istory of South a sians in n orth a merica r . c houhan n orth Shore Y outh Safe house J. Thornthwaite Day of action on climate change M.

Mungall c ommunities in bloom award for White r ock G. h ogg oral Questions ......................................................................................................................................................................... 1616 emergency services at Mission Memorial h ospital a. Dix h on. k. Falco n emergency services in Fraser h ealth a uthority S. h ammell h on. k. Falco n emergency services at Mission Memorial h ospital S. h ammell h on. k. Falco n Speech pathology services in invermere area n. Macdonald h on. k.

Falco n Funding for seniors services in Surrey and White r ock h. b ains h on. k. Falco n Medical laboratory services in northern b.c. D. Donaldson h on. k. Falco n Government procurement of transportation signage k. c onroy h on. S. bond Funding for Vancouver island children's festival l. k rog h on. r . c oleman Motions Without notice ......................................................................................................................................................... 1621 Powers and role of c hildren and Y outh committee h on.

M. de Jong Petitions .................................................................................................................................................................................... 1621 M. Mungall

Orders of the Day Second r eading of bills .......................................................................................................................................................... 1621 bill Pr401 — Verigin Memorial Park a mendment a ct, 2009 k. c onroy c ommittee of the Whole h ouse ............................................................................................................................................ 1622 bill Pr401 — Verigin Memorial Park a mendment a ct, 2009 r eport and Third r eading of bills ......................................................................................................................................... 1622 bill Pr401 — Verigin Memorial Park a mendment a ct, 2009 Second r eading of bills .......................................................................................................................................................... 1622 bill Pr402 — t rustee board of the c hurch of God, r ichmond Municipality, b.c. (c orporate r estoration) a ct, 2009 r . h oward c ommittee of the Whole h ouse ............................................................................................................................................ 1623 bill Pr402 — t rustee board of the c hurch of God, r ichmond Municipality, b.c. (c orporate r estoration) a ct, 2009 r eport and Third r eading of bills ......................................................................................................................................... 1623 bill Pr402 — t rustee board of the c hurch of God, r ichmond Municipality, b.c. (c orporate r estoration) a ct, 2009 Second r eading of bills .......................................................................................................................................................... 1623 bill Pr403 — Victoria Foundation a mendment a ct, 2009 r .

Sultan c ommittee of the Whole h ouse ............................................................................................................................................ 1623 bill Pr403 — Victoria Foundation a mendment a ct, 2009 r .

Sultan r eport and Third r eading of bills ......................................................................................................................................... 1624 bill Pr403 — Victoria Foundation a mendment a ct, 2009 c ommittee of the Whole h ouse ............................................................................................................................................ 1624 bill 7 — Police (Misconduct, c omplaints, investigations, Discipline and Proceedings) a mendment a ct, 2009 (continued) M. Farnworth h on.

M. de Jong r eporting of bills ..................................................................................................................................................................... 1640 bill 7 — Police (Misconduct, c omplaints, investigations, Discipline and Proceedings) a mendment a ct, 2009 Third r eading of bills ............................................................................................................................................................. 1640 bill 7 — Police (Misconduct, c omplaints, investigations, Discipline and Proceedings) a mendment a ct, 2009 Second r eading of bills .......................................................................................................................................................... 1640 bill 17 — h ealth Statutes (r esidents' bill of r ights) a mendment a ct, 2009 h on. i. c hong J. brar M. k aragianis

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room c ommittee of Supply .............................................................................................................................................................. 1649 e stimates: Ministry of h ousing and Social Development (continued) S. Simpson h on. r . c oleman r . c houhan b. r outley G. c oons J. kwan V . huntington M. k aragianis r . a ustin k. c orrigan M. Mungall k. c onroy S. Fraser

1613 tueSD a Y , october 27, 2009 The h ouse met at 1:33 p.m. [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Routine Business Introductions by Members H. Bains: W e have about 16 members from bc Geu . These are the folks that represent workers who provide us the road and highway maintenance all around british c olumbia. h ere today: Mike n uyens, l ocal 1007; Mike Prystae, l ocal 1009; l loyd Gibberley, a staff member; r ory Smith, l ocal 1004; k elly McDonald, 1006; Fred Street, 1005; Don Danroth, 1011; and keith Jansons, local 1007. i ask the h ouse to please join with me and provide a very warm welcome.

My colleague from the north will be introducing the rest of them. Hon. R. Hawes: in the gallery today are Gavin Dirom from the a ssociation for Mineral e xploration b.c . and a llen Wright from the c anadian c oal a ssociation. They're here to take

part in the minister's council on mining. c ould the house please make them both welcome. G. Coons: t o continue the list of the bc Geu members who work hard on our highways: Gordon h ollingsworth, l ocal 1001; t ed o lsen, 1012; Jim Manson, 1008; Dave c umming, 1003; k evin Staneland, 1008; Sandy Fellers, 1010; Daniel cross, 1002; and Maureen l eclaire. My colleague from Surrey-n ewton and i had some very productive meetings with these members of the bc Geu . With winter season coming up, we plowed through quite a few issues and sanded the way for productive communi- cations. Please make them welcome. [1335] S.

Hammell: There are 96 students, plus parents and teachers, in the precinct from Queen e lizabeth Secondary School in Surrey. They are here to learn about government. i spent time with them in the classroom and know they are looking forward to today, so would the h ouse please make them welcome. Hon. S. Bond: a ll of us are always delighted when we have the opportunity to have our family and friends join us here in Victoria. i'm very pleased to tell you that i'm lucky enough to have my husband of 30 years here with me today, so i'd ask that you please make bill very welcome to the precinct and to the gallery. D.

Routley: i'd like the h ouse to help me welcome Gaylene Winchester and r oseanne Shuey. e arlier this year a young man from l adysmith, t yler Mackie, was hit by a car in n anaimo. h e was severely injured and lost a leg. a fundraiser was held, and i offered as an auc- tion item lunch in the l egislature and gallery seats here for two so that we could support the fundraiser for that young man. Y oung Sonny brisky, nephew to Ms.

Gaylene Winchester, bought the auction item and gave it to his a unt Gaylene for her 65th birthday, which was o ctober 2. i'd like the h ouse to help me make them welcome and thank them for supporting the effort to help tyler Mackie. N. Macdonald: i want to join with my colleagues in recognizing, in particular, Jim Manson from r evelstoke. a nybody who knows r evelstoke…. if you can keep the highways clear in r evelstoke, you can do it pretty well anywhere in the world. i just want to say hello and salute him and ask you to join me in making him welcome. D.

Hayer : i would like to announce the birth of Marcelo Santos, whose proud parents are Manuel Santos, my ca, and my financial agent, Marilena Santos. Marcelo was born yesterday, o ctober 27, at 7:40 p.m. h e weighed 8.4 pounds and measured 52 centimetres. Would the h ouse please make them — the parents and grandparents and the rest of the family — very welcome and congratulate them on behalf of the house. Introduction and First Reading of Bills bill 19 — l obb YiSt S r e GiStration aMenDMent a ct, 2009 h on.

M. de Jong presented a message from h is h onour the l ieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled l ob- byists r egistration a mendment a ct, 2009. [a pplause.] Mr. Speaker: u nanticipated excitement, attorney. Hon. M. de Jong: Mr. Speaker, i move that the bill be introduced and read a first time now. Motion approved. Hon. M. de Jong: bill 19 makes significant amend- ments to the existing l obbyists r egistration a ct. They are the first major reforms to the act since it was introduced in o ctober of 2002.

The bill will significantly strengthen the lobbyist registration regime in b.c., and it will bring it in close alignment with the existing alberta legislation. The changes being proposed include the following: harmonizing an expanded definition of lobbying with a lberta; providing for only two streams of lobbyists in b.c., with parallel, strengthened reporting requirements;

british c olumbia Debates1614 t uesday, o ctober 27, 2009 prohibiting contracting with government and lobbying on the same subject matter; providing the registrar with specific powers to conduct investigations and a require- ment to report the results of those investigations to this l egislative a ssembly; introducing administrative penalties of up to $25,000 and, in some cases, $100,000 for a second or subsequent offence; and extending the limitation period to two years. it's proposed that the legislation will come into force on a pril 1, 2010. i move that the bill be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the h ouse after today. [1340] bill 19, l obbyists r egistration a mendment a ct, 2009, introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the h ouse after today.

Statements (Standing Order 25B) reS earch anD D e Velo PMent in Woo D Pro Duct S in Du Str Y D. Routley: i rise today to speak about FPinnovations, and Forintek, their division for research and develop- ment. With offices in l adysmith and labs in Vancouver at ubc and in Quebec city, they do r and D in the forest sector. We all want a green economy. What could be more green than an industry whose products seques- ter carbon and whose raw material absorbs it and cre- ates oxygen in growing? FPinnovations creates solutions from forest to market.

Their main obstacle to innovation and entrepreneurial- ism in the forest industry is fibre access. FP is working with first nations to utilize 40 million cubic metres of wood to create high-value products in new markets. efforts result in better quality, higher-value products, lower production costs, improved productivity and enhanced competitiveness in the marketplace. Since a pril 1, 1979, Forintek has operated as a non-profit corporation conducting focused research and development, touching every key element of the wood-product-sector value chain.

Forintek is a powerful, highly responsive team of professionals with high quality and high capacity to guide the wood industry towards higher value. We all, as british c olumbians, have a sense that we need to conserve our forests, even while we enjoy the benefits of a thriving wood products industry. We know that we must add value to our resources in order to create jobs and maximize the benefit to british c olumbians from the resources that we do harvest. We ask ourselves: why ikea? Why not b.c .ea? The answer to that question is being offered by many entrepre- neurs throughout this province.

The ideas are out there. The energy resides in british c olumbia. The obstacles are many and varied, from fibre access to technological development, product research, market research and development, finance, and commercial advice. FPinnovations and Forintek lead the way in provid- ing those answers to our entrepreneurs. We as legislators should support the research and development of prod- ucts and marketplaces that will revitalize our industry for the benefit of all british c olumbians. al et ManS ki S.

Cadieux: Just as entrepreneurs change the face of business, social entrepreneurs act as the agents of change for society, seizing opportunities other miss for improving systems, inventing new approaches and cre- ating solutions that change society for the better. i'd like today to take a moment to pay tribute to one such social entrepreneur. h e's president and co-founder of Planned l ifetime a dvocacy n etwork, Plan, a non- profit social enterprise assisting families by addressing financial and social well-being for their relatives with disabilities. h e's proposed and led the successful cam- paign to establish the registered disability savings plan, rDSP , the world's first savings plan for people with disabilities. h e's authored two books: A Good Life — For You and Your Relative with a Disability and Safe and Secure. h e admits to having played air guitar with r andy bachman of bachman-t urner o verdrive in a rock video. h e's the founding member of the J.W .

Mcc onnell Family Foundations Social innovation Generation col- laboration, which is an initiative to explore new meth- ods of financing for the social sector. h e's one of the first two c anadians accepted into a shoka's prestigious global fellowship of social entrepreneurs.

This month, in honour of c ommunity l iving Month, burnaby a ssociation for c ommunity inclusion hosted a celebration in his honour. h is name is a l e tmanski. h e's a source of inspiration, conceiving of new and innova- tive concepts yet remaining grounded and practical, inspiring us to understand what is possible. i'm honoured to represent a l e tmanski here in the l egislature, and i look forward to many more years of remarkable contribution. hi Stor Y o F South a Sian S in north aMerica R. Chouhan: e arlier this month, on o ctober 12, a very important event took place in the South a sian community. Mr.

Sohan Pooni launched his book called Canada De Gadri Yodhay. in english it means "c anadian heroes of the Ghadar movement." u sually when a book is launched, only a handful of people attend, but in

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, o ctober 27, 2009 1615 this case, 1,000 people participated in a two-hour-long ceremony. The book is about the history of South a sians in n orth a merica in the first half of the 20th century. There were several hundred active members of the Ghadar move- ment, but due to the time constraints or other challenges, Mr. Pooni was able to write only about 41 Ghadarites. i'm sure Mr.

Pooni will write about all of them in the near future. [1345] Most people have heard about the Komagata Maru incident that occurred in 1914, but not too many know about the leaders and the members of the community who fought against the racist policies of the provincial and the c anadian governments of that time. The first South a sian arrived in british c olumbia around 1895. Despite the fact that indians were british subjects, they were treated as second-class citizens upon their arrival in c anada. e very possible step was taken by those governments to stop immigration from india.

These men realized that the main reason for the dis- crimination against them was that india was not a free country, thus they decided to start the Ghadar move- ment and to participate in the struggle to free india from british rule. i hope to see this book translated in english soon so that more people can read it. c ongratulations and thank you, Mr. Pooni, for the wonderful job that you have done. This book looks so beautiful. Mr. Speaker: Members, i remind members not to use props. north Shore Youth Sa Fe hou Se J.

Thornthwaite: on Saturday i had the pleasure of attending the 8th annual n orth Shore r otary Wine and Food Festival benefiting a very important cause: the n orth Shore Y outh Safe house. i'm told that they made approximately $34,000. it was great to see so many people come together to raise money and awareness for a place that inevitably saves and reshapes lives.

The n orth Shore Y outh Safe h ouse is a place where youth between the ages of 13 and 18 can go to find a warm, comfortable and, most of all, secure place to stay. o pen 24 hours a day, seven days a week, the safe house provides youth in need with warm meals and a clean place to sleep. What makes the safe house so special is that it offers support, mediation and advocacy to meet the needs of high-risk youth in a safe environment by discouraging violence or discrimination of any kind and encouraging respect, solution-seeking and structured meal and sleep times.

The Ministry of children and Family Development contracts h ollyburn Family Services to provide the safe house with workers specialized in family support as well as transitional youth. Support is also there for youth with drug and alcohol issues, and there is ongoing aftercare assistance from the community outreach workers.

Without organizations like the n orth Shore Y outh Safe h ouse, teens at risk on the north Shore would have very little to turn to. o ffering both emergency and long-term help, the safe house truly is a great asset to our commun- ity. i would like to thank the n orth Shore r otary for their continued support of the n orth Shore Safe h ouse, giving at-risk teens a chance at creating successful and fulfilling lives. Da Y o F action on cli Mate chan Ge M. Mungall: This past Saturday, on october 24, i par- ticipated in the international day of climate action by attending a 350 event.

This event was organized by a powerful group of youth from l V r ogers high school in n elson. h anna o kidan, o livia Mansfield, a sia l amb-h artley, Sarea c armichael, a manda c houinard, Shandrea l avoie, emily n ewbury, isolde deMontignay, n eufeld c ummings, Sheena Y oung and h anna a stall all decided that n elson couldn't be left out of this global day of action and so banded together to get their community together to say that we are going to be a part of a global change for sustainability. a nd 350 people turned up in n elson for 350. For 350 — 350 parts per million of co 2 in our atmosphere.

That's the magic number: 350. n elson wasn't alone this Saturday when we said that 350 is achievable. From a ddis a baba to a fghanistan, from c ape t own to c ebu in the Philippines, from the base of the pyramids in Giza to the tops of ice peaks in a ntarctica and the bottoms of the oceans in the Maldives, all across e urope, a sia, the a mericas, a frica and, of course, down under in a ustralia — 5,248 events in 181 countries made for the most widespread day of political action in human history, and nelson was a part of it. t o know that we are a part of a global movement for a global change is truly awesome.

With that much energy and that much passion, we can achieve anything, includ- ing reducing our carbon emissions to 350. This is only the beginning. [1350] co MMunitieS in bloo M a WarD For White rock G. Hogg: The White r ock c ommunities in bloom com- mittee, after winning the national award in 2008, competed this year internationally with and against e ngland, ireland, Scotland, Japan and the rest of c anada. They received a five-bloom rating, the highest rating to be awarded. The two judges, l orna Mcilroy and Jack c lasen, made special mention of White r ock's sparkling waterfront,

british c olumbia Debates1616 t uesday, o ctober 27, 2009 its promenade, its beautiful Marine Drive and, of course, the rock. They added that the entire area is "splashed with colour by luxurious planters and vivid hanging flower baskets." They noted the participation of volun- teers who keep the area litter-free, the environmental guides who offer interpretative walks and the artists who have created public art sites. a t night leD lights twinkle in the waterfront trees, further enhancing the natural beauty of the area.

With the city, they have been responsible for foreshore restor- ation planting, native plant demonstration gardens and many other creative beautification programs. This has happened under the dynamic leadership of their chairperson, Mr. Moti bali, and his devoted com- mittee. They have been supported by the White r ock business improvement a ssociation and the Semiahmoo First n ation. i ask this l egislature to join me in congratulating and thanking these people for their commitment and for their accomplishments. Oral Questions eMer GencY S er ViceS at MiSSion MeM orial hoSP ital A.

Dix: c ontrary to what the b.c. l iberals said in the election campaign and contrary to what the min- ister himself said a few months ago, the Fraser h ealth a uthority is proceeding to downgrade the emergency room at Mission Memorial h ospital. h owever, last night the Mission council unanimously rejected the minister's plan for the hospital. instead, the council passed a motion that the hospital and the er stay intact. Will the minister listen to Mission city council and abandon his plan to slash basic health care services in Mission? Hon. K.

Falcon: Y ou know, even with a record budget increase of 20 percent over the next three years, the health authorities are still challenged to deal with the record utilization and use of the health system. o ne of the things that the public demands and expects is that the health authorities utilize their dollars — the massive dollars that we put into health care — as appropriately as possible. When i met with Mayor a tebe from Mission, one of the discussions we had was to make sure that the com- munity was fully involved in the consultative process before decisions got made.

That's exactly what's hap- pened — to make sure that before a decision gets made, all of the facts are on the table. There are a couple of facts that might interest the member.

The first is that during the overnight period between 11 p.m. at night and 8 a.m. in the morning, the Mission community hospital receives, on average, one ambulance visit in the overnight period. if you consider the fact that we've just opened a new $355 million a bbotsford r egional h ospital and c ancer c entre with a quadrupled emergency department, 20 minutes away in one direction, and that the r idge Meadows h ospital with a tripled emergency department just opened in the last twelve months, that is the founda- tion on which they make a decision. A.

Dix: Perhaps if the minister had actually read the report, he wouldn't be so quick to downgrade the work being done by the nurses and doctors at Mission Memorial h ospital. The night shift gets 3,500 visits a year. So when you're downgrading it, when you're tell- ing people inaccurate facts, as the minister just did…. Perhaps he could include that one. h e might also include the words of his own chair of the board, who says that they're getting a 2.8 percent lift this year — well under the utilization and population increases.

The minister said in July: "This is not a deci- sion driven by saving money." Y esterday he told Mission that if they wanted to save their er , they'd have to find $400,000 in savings in patient services elsewhere in the hospital. Will he give up on this outrageous shakedown and protect services in Mission? Hon. K.

Falcon: i tried to explain the facts to the member — the facts that are a part of the consultative process that is going on with the community right now. [1355] i know that the member doesn't believe anything should ever change in the health system, and i under - stand that. e ven with record funding increases, accord- ing to the nDP , nothing should ever change. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. K. Falcon: Perhaps i'll try another tack that might work with this member. The member has a com- munity hospital that serves people in his own constitu- ency, called the Mount St.

Joseph community hospital. in the entire ten years that the nDP were in govern- ment — in fact, that member was the chief of staff to the Premier at the time, Glen c lark — at not one time did they decide that that emergency department should be open 24 hours. Why? because it's got VGh on one side and St. Paul's on the other.

That was appropriate for them. it's appropriate in this case that the Fraser h ealth a uthority look at the facts and make sure they make a decision based on the facts in front of them — recognizing the $355 million investment in a brand-new state-of-the-art regional hospital and cancer centre with a quadrupled emergency department

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, o ctober 27, 2009 1617 on one side, 20 minutes away, and another expanded, tripled, emergency department at r idge Meadows, 20 minutes on the other side. it is appropriate that they do that, given the facts that they have available. Mr. Speaker: The member has a further supplemental. A. Dix: The people of Mission know change, b.c. l iberal–style. it's the sixth major downgrade of that hospital since the b.c. l iberals came to office. a cute to sub-acute. They closed the icu . They cut one set of beds.

Then they cut another set of beds — 60 percent of the beds in the entire hospital. They cut the emerg, the maternity ward. They downgraded acute care beds just a month ago, residential care beds. interjection. A. Dix: Y eah, i'd say the hon. member from Mission…. h e finally speaks. on the sixth downgrade, the member from Mission finally speaks. During the election, where was he? Why doesn't the Minister of h ealth take account of the risks made clear in his own report, listen to the com- munity and abandon this hammer blow to health care in Mission? Hon. K.

Falcon: We hear all the hysterics and the theatrical performance of the member opposite, but they conveniently ignore rather important facts. one of those important facts, actually, is that the community of a bbotsford, for ten years, was clamouring for a new facility. They never dealt with that at all — nothing. What we did was constructed and built a $355 mil- lion state-of-the-art facility with a quadrupled emergency department.

That's on one end. a t the other end, with r idge Meadows hospital, a tripled emergency department. i recognize that this is never an easy thing for a com- munity. but actually, when you've got an emergency department that receives, on average, one ambulance visit per night during the overnight hours and, on average, eight to nine walk-in visits that are not high-acute visits, it is not inappropriate, given the facilities that have just been con- structed and expanded, that that decision could be made.

We still deliver first-class, exceptional health care for all the folks in the Fraser region. eMer GencY S er ViceS in Fra Ser health authorit Y S. Hammell: h ere are some other facts. Fraser h ealth's own data confirms that emergency services need to be improved, not decreased, in the region. This spring the health authority reported that both the er in Mission and the er in a bbotsford, which the minister keeps insisting can take patients from Mission, are not meet- ing the benchmark to admit 80 percent of their patients within ten hours.

They are not reaching that benchmark of 80 percent within ten hours. a t the a bbotsford er , only 43 percent of patients are being admitted within that time frame. Will the minister start basing his decisions on sound policy that improves, not worsens, access to emergency care in the Fraser Valley? [1400] Hon. K.

Falcon: That's exactly what's happening, because actually we have a health system. it is a system; it is not an individual, isolated emergency department that works on its own without any connection to the other regional facilities. i can tell the member — the member's from Surrey; she should know — that the $239 million being invested in the new out-patient hospital, which i recently vis- ited — a major milestone…. That hospital is part of the system of care for folks in the Fraser region.

So when the $355 million a bbotsford r egional h ospital and c ancer c entre was built, that actually helps the Surrey Memorial emergency department.

That's why we've been making those investments — to ensure that the entire system works in tandem with each other. but where we have a situation that, in spite of 20 per - cent health funding increases, we still have pressures in the system, it is appropriate that an emergency depart- ment that sees on average one ambulance visit per night between the hours of 11 p.m. and 8 a.m…. it is appro- priate that they recommend those kinds of changes to ensure that dollars go towards patient care — exactly where it should go. Mr.

Speaker: The member has a supplemental. eMer GencY S er ViceS at MiSSion MeM orial hoSP ital S. Hammell: The minister's own report presented to Mission council last night details the risks of cutting emergency services to the community of Mission. The risks include — and this is detailed in the report presented — a lack of physician coverage for emergencies during the night shift, sustaining other services within the hospi- tal such as labs and pharmacies, delay in care of trauma patients and increased congestion in other sites. These are the problems that the minister's own report identifies.

Will the minister reconsider this ill-thought-out plan and agree with Mission council that reducing hours in the emergency ward at Mission Memorial h ospital is unacceptable? Hon. K. Falcon: i'll go back to what i said earlier to the h ealth critic. Y ou know, there is a hospital that serves many of that h ealth critic's constituents called Mount St. Joseph's.

british c olumbia Debates1618 t uesday, o ctober 27, 2009 it also has an emergency department with no overnight hours. That doesn't mean that health care is compromised in Vancouver. it is not. They've got the St. Paul's facility and the VGh facility also there. it is no different in this case. in this case, we have opened a brand-new, state-of-the- art $355 million a bbotsford r egional h ospital.

When you've opened up a $355 million state-of-the-art hospital 20 minutes away from a community hospital emergency department, with an emergency department that is quad- rupled in size and 20 minutes in the other direction, you've tripled the emergency department for ridge Meadows. it actually begs the health authority to make sure they utilize all of these brand-new, expanded assets appropri- ately. That's what they're doing. i know those members oppose every change ever contemplated, thought about or made, but we are going to make the right decisions for the folks in the Fraser Valley. That's what we're doing.

SPeech Patholo GY Ser ViceS in inVerMere area N. Macdonald: in July of 2008 n orm Gagatek, a 39-year-old firefighter from invermere, suffered a dev- astating brain stem stroke. h e had a family depending on him and a child on the way, and since the day of his stroke, he has struggled to make some kind of recovery. it was when a speech therapist in invermere started to work directly with n orm that he started to regain the ability to swallow and the possibility of saying his new son's name. but the speech-language pathologist who was providing n orm and others with direct therapy on a consistent

schedule is now being cut by the iha. The question for the Minister of h ealth is: will the minister restore the speech therapy services that n orm and his family desperately need? [1405] Hon. K. Falcon: a gain, the member is characterizing this wrongly. h e's trying to say that speech pathology has been cut for the individual in question. That's not the case. The fact of the matter is that there was a speech path- ologist that served in invermere three days per month.

What has changed is that it is operating out of e ast k ootenay r egional h ospital on an out-patient basis, just as it has in the e lk Valley for many years very successfully. They will continue to go to invermere and go to Golden to provide the services for the folks that need it. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. N. Macdonald: Well, what the minister describes as a change, he's not describing accurately. it is a suggestion that there's going to be some television linkup.

The fact is that this change, as the minister describes it, is actually driven not by good practice or innovation or anything other than a $40 million deficit that the interior h ealth is struggling to find ways of making up for. This is a cut, and a cut that the minister talks about. it's a cut to direct, hands-on therapy delivered on a regu- lar basis that has allowed progress for n orm.

That's the fact of the matter. t o quote n orm's spouse, k im: "being able to say Quinn's name and his son braeden's name is huge for n orm and their family." n ow this cut that the minister is making is taking away the chance for that family. That is what is at stake here, and the question is: will the minister do the right thing and reverse that cut? Hon. K. Falcon: We've covered territory like this before. i've tried to explain to the members that a 20 percent increase in the h ealth budget, an additional $2.4 billion, is not a cut. it's a dramatic, record increase.

That's what we've done. i've said very publicly — i've been very clear to the members opposite — that even with a 20 percent h ealth budget increase over the next three years, there are still pressures. a ll of the health authorities are challenged to make sure that they look at how they deliver services and do it in a manner that is most efficient and most respectful of the massive record dollars, taxpayer dollars, that go into that service. in this case, i can tell you that the speech pathologist that served three days a month in invermere will con- tinue to serve invermere out of e ast k ootenay r egional h ospital on an out-patient basis. n ow, he keeps saying that the person is gone. n o, the person will continue to serve from e ast k ootenay r egional h ospital.

The service will continue to be provided by a speech pathologist, just as it has been, very successfully, in the elk Valley for a number of years. FunD in G For SeniorS S er ViceS in Surre Y anD White rock H.

Bains: White r ock/Surrey c ome Share Society serves thousands of seniors every year, providing critical services like outreach, meal programs, driving seniors to medical appointments, weekly phone check- ups and services for seniors in crisis. n ow this govern- ment and this minister hit them with $161,000 funding cut, eliminating most of those services. it means that some of the most vulnerable seniors no longer have the support that they desperately need, and it will cost the system more through higher acute care costs. My question to the minister is this.

Will the minister stop running roughshod over our seniors in Surrey and White r ock? Will he reverse those cuts? Hon. K. Falcon: a gain, i know that the members opposite want to create a situation where they can talk about: "o h, every change is a cut." even though the budget

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, o ctober 27, 2009 1619 is going up 20 percent, even though they can look and see the additional $2.4 billion going into the system, in the n DP world nothing can ever change. it's a good lesson for the students that may be listening here today, because in their world nothing ever changes, no matter what the facts tell you, no matter what the situation is. The fact of the matter is that for the c ome Share Society, Fraser h ealth will continue to fund them a mil- lion dollars a year to deliver important medical supports like a meal program and adult day care.

Where there are changes being made and services no longer being provided, it is typically in the socialization area for many senior services. [1410] They are important programs, but they are focusing their dollars on direct medical care at a time when even a 20 percent budget increase is never enough. That's an appropriate decision to make. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. H. Bains: Y ou know what hasn't changed? This min- ister's and this government's refusal to be respectful and to stop showing contempt to the very people that built this province.

That's what you're doing. h ere are some of the recent examples of how c ome Share serves seniors in our community: helping an elderly couple find a care facility where they could live together, helping a senior find a donated bed he couldn't otherwise afford, helping a senior access her finances after she was forced to move out of assisted living, con- necting seniors to basic services like baths and deliv- ering groceries.

Thanks to this minister and thanks to these l iberals, they are now forced to turn seniors away with no place to go. a gain to this minister: on behalf of those seniors, will he show some respect to the seniors in my community, and will he promise to restore the funding for the White r ock/Surrey c ome Share Society today? Hon. K. Falcon: That member's comments are just ridiculous. The fact of the matter is that it was this gov- ernment that actually delivered over 6,000 new assisted- living and residential care beds for seniors right across the province. interjections. Mr. Speaker: c ontinue, Minister. Hon. K.

Falcon: Y ou can sense the sensitivity over there, because they also had a record. it was a disastrous record when it came to actually doing more than talking about what they want to do.

What we are doing is delivering change that's of real benefit to seniors. i get, i understand and recognize, that some socialization programs that provided referrals to handyDart service or to socialization and get-together programs are important for seniors. i understand that. but i also recognize, as does Fraser h ealth, that the most important thing for them to invest in — at a time when even a 20 percent budget increase cannot fulfil every demand out there — is to focus on direct medical care, bathing programs, food programs. That's what they're doing. i support that they're doing that.

MeD ical laborator Y Ser ViceS in northern b.c. D. Donaldson: What we can sense is the nonsense coming from this side from the Minister of h ealth. The n orthern h ealth a uthority just cut microbiology lab services at the bulkley Valley District h ospital in Smithers. The same funding cut was done at Wrinch Memorial h ospital in h azelton. Medical professionals in Smithers and h azelton say these cuts in services will increase risk to patients. nha says they'll send samples by bus elsewhere — by bus. important samples to be sent on the Greyhound. r oad conditions can be treacherous.

Delays will result. c old weather can destroy microbes, giving inaccurate results. Why will the minister not provide adequate fund- ing to the n orthern h ealth a uthority for the important microbiology lab services in these communities, instead of putting patients at higher risk? Hon. K. Falcon: Well, classic nDP . The world as we know it is coming to an end.

There are, apparently, cuts everywhere, in spite of the fact that we've actually seen the health budget double. i know math has never been their strong point, so i'll try this with the member. in 2001 when i first got elected, the health budget was $8.4 billion. t oday the member might be interested to know that the total health spending in the province of british c olumbia is $15.7 billion. [1415] only in the nDP world is a doubling of the health budget a cut. only in the nDP world do you somehow take a doubling and talk about a cut. l ab services are being consolidated.

There is actually lots of medical efficacy that will demonstrate that you can get better results for the public. it's safer when they're doing more volume. Y ou've got the people that are doing that service getting the experience of volume and delivering better service. That's what they're doing. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. D. Donaldson: What the minister doesn't seem to understand is that when operating costs go up more than funding, it's called a funding deficit. This govern-

british c olumbia Debates1620 t uesday, o ctober 27, 2009 ment should know something about that, because this minister helped increase the funding deficit, the deficit in this province, to the highest level in history. l et's talk about change. These government cuts to lab services… interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. c ontinue, Member. D. Donaldson: …take what is working well now and introduce a more convoluted testing process where more things can go wrong. it's needlessly increasing risk to patients. That's the kind of change they're doing on that side of the h ouse.

Will the minister reinstate these lab services instead of destroying something that is working? Hon. K. Falcon: i thought that the member's question at the beginning was quite instructive of the nDP men- tality. r eally, what it is suggesting is that you shouldn't even think about trying to do anything different in the health system. God, no. We should never even dream of that. h it the spending accelerator and just spend and keep doing whatever you've been doing. Don't even think about doing things differently. That's the nDP response. That's not our response.

We recognize that with a 20 percent funding increase, there is still a responsibility on government, recognizing that taxpayer dollars are not unlimited. it is hard-working folks that contribute those dollars. We have a responsibility to deliver the services he pretends to care about as efficiently and effectively as we possibly can. That is what they are doing. Go VernMent ProcureMent o F tranSPortation SiGna Ge K.

Conroy: c an the Minister of t ransportation explain why she feels it is appropriate to buy signs from companies outside of b.c., while we have excellent com- panies right here in b.c. that produce exactly the same signs? Hon. S. Bond: We do have a very extensive sign pro- gram in british c olumbia. We make every effort to util- ize british c olumbia's services and british c olumbia's products. in fact, we're proud of the program that we have in this province that makes sure that we empha- size the use of british c olumbia products wherever possible. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members.

The member has a supplemental. K. Conroy: Proud? Well, in the last four years, Zumar industries in t acoma, Washington, has received over a million dollars in contracts from the b.c. government — over a million dollars of b.c. taxpayers' dollars. We know that sign companies here in b.c. can pro- duce exactly the same signs as the minister has con- tracted with them. So how can the… interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. K. Conroy: …minister condone this? When the ministry staff was asked why, we were told that an answer would be forthcoming from the minister. Well, how about it, Minister?

Why is this government's policy buy Washington, not buy b.c.? Hon. S. Bond: in fact, this government's policy is that we're going to get the absolute best value for every tax- payer dollar we spend. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. c ontinue, Minister. [1420] Hon. S. Bond: o nce again, the n DP doesn't bother to do any homework. They simply walk into the l egis- lature. in fact, we have our own sign shop. Wherever possible and whenever possible we look at the best competitive advantage, and the vast majority of what we do is british c olumbia products and british c olum- bia workmanship.

FunD in G For Vancou Ver iSlan D chil Dren 'S Fe Sti Val L. Krog: The Vancouver island international c hil- dren's Festival celebrated its tenth anniversary this year. More than a hundred thousand students, teachers and families have attended that event over those years. indeed, some schools travelled over two days to attend that festival. The cutting of b.c . gaming funds has left the society now with no option but to wind up its affairs.

So my ques- tion to the Minister of t ourism, the person responsible for arts and culture at the cabinet table: is he prepared to let this happen, and if so, why? interjections.

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, o ctober 27, 2009 1621 Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. R. Coleman: We've canvassed this in this h ouse before with regards to tough decisions that had to be made about grant programs within the gaming grants and charitable grants of b.c. this year. We actually focused with regards to children and meals in schools and services there. We focused on search and rescue and the importance of public safety with regards to that.

We focused on issues in and around food banks and on the issue of the social development side, because we felt that at this time, during difficult times, the priority dollars should be going to those people who need it the most. [end of question period.] Hon. K. Heed: i seek leave to make an introduction. Mr. Speaker: Proceed. Introductions by Members Hon. K.

Heed: Joining us today in the gallery is a long- time-serving police officer from the Vancouver police department. h e's served over 31 years in the commun- ity of Vancouver, and matter of fact, he took over my command when i left the Vancouver police department. i ask that all of us welcome Supt. a ndy h obbs. Hon. M. de Jong: With leave, i move that the Select Standing c ommittee on c hildren and Y outh be appointed to be empowered to foster greater awareness and understanding among legislators and the public of the b.c. child welfare system. l eave granted.

Motions Without Notice Po Wer S an D role o F chil Dren an D Youth co MMittee Hon.

M. de Jong: i have provided a copy of the motion to the o pposition h ouse l eader. it includes the same powers that accrued to the committee last year. [That the Select Standing c ommittee on c hildren and Y outh be appointed to be empowered to foster greater awareness and understanding among legislators and the public of the bc child welfare system, and in particular to: 1. b e the committee that receives and reviews the annual service plan from the r epresentative for c hildren and Y outh (the "representative") that includes a statement of goals and identifies specific objectives and perform- ance measures that will be required to exercise the powers and perform the functions and duties of the r epresentative during the fiscal year; 2. b e the committee to which the r epresentative reports, at least annually; 3. r efer to the r epresentative for investigation the critical injury or death of a child; and 4. r eceive and consider all reports and plans delivered by the r epresentative (if any during the time period of these terms of reference) to the Speaker of the l egislative a ssembly of british c olumbia. in addition to the powers previously conferred upon Select Stand- ing c ommittees of the h ouse, the Select Standing c ommittee on c hildren and Y outh be empowered:

a) to appoint of their number, one or more subcommittees and to refer to such subcommittees any of the matters referred to the c ommittee;

b) to sit during a period in which the h ouse is adjourned, during the recess after prorogation until the next follow- ing Session and during any sitting of the house;

c) to adjourn from place to place as may be convenient; and

d) to retain personnel as required to assist the c ommittee; and shall report to the h ouse as soon as possible, or following any adjournment, or at the next following Session, as the case may be; to deposit the original of its reports with the c lerk of the l egisla- tive a ssembly during a period of adjournment and upon resump- tion of the sittings of the h ouse, the c hair shall present all reports to the l egislative assembly.] Motion approved. M. Mungall: i seek leave to introduce a petition to the h ouse. Mr. Speaker: Proceed. Petitions M.

Mungall: t his petition was signed by 276 people last week at a rally to reinstate the funding cuts to arts and culture. t hese are artists and arts lovers. t he funding represents not only their enjoyment in this community and throughout british c olumbia, but also, of course, their very lifeline, their jobs. t hey want that funding reinstated, and so they signed this petition. Orders of the Day Hon.

M. de Jong: i call bill Pr401, Verigin Memorial Park a mendment a ct, 2009. in c ommittee a, i call c ommittee of Supply — for the information of mem- bers, the ongoing estimates of the Ministry of h ousing and Social Development. [1425] Second Reading of Bills bill P r401 — Veri Gin MeM orial Park aMenDMent a ct, 2009 K. Conroy: i move that the bill be now read a second time. This private bill was initiated by the u nion of Spirit-

british c olumbia Debates1622 t uesday, o ctober 27, 2009 ual c ommunities of c hrist, the Doukhobor community, more commonly known as the uScc. The Doukhobors' original spiritual leader was Peter V . Verigin, Peter the l ordly. When he succumbed to an untimely death on o ctober 1924, he was interred at Verigin's tomb in bril- liant, just outside of c astlegar. o ver the years other family members have also been laid to rest in this beautiful and spiritual site. it has come to the attention of the community that there needed to be an amendment to the original act, allowing for the interment of these descendents.

This amendment simply ensures all who rest there now and in future do so with the proper authorization. The Doukhobors' history spans over a hundred years in this province. i welcome the opportunity to spon- sor this bill that will allow the suitable interment of the leadership of these industrious people who truly lived their philosophy of toil and peaceful living. it has been one year since John J.

Verigin Sr., the former honorary chairman of the uScc, passed away and was also interred at the brilliant site. i want to take this moment to remember him and the incredible con- tribution he made to our community, our province and, indeed, our country. The uScc and the Verigin family have established the John J. Verigin memorial fund to advance the principles and values he championed during his life. i join with the many constituents who joined with his family to remember John one year after his passing, and all who hope that this bill passes. Mr. Speaker: Move second reading. K. Conroy: Mr.

Speaker, by leave, i move that the bill be referred to a c ommittee of the Whole h ouse…. Mr. Speaker: Member, first we have to move second reading. Seeing no further speakers, does the member move second reading? K. Conroy: i move second reading. Motion approved. K. Conroy: by leave, i move that the bill be referred to a c ommittee of the Whole h ouse to be considered forthwith. l eave granted. bill Pr401, Verigin Memorial Park a mendment a ct, 2009, read a second time and referred to a c ommittee of the Whole h ouse for consideration forthwith.

Committee of the Whole House bi ll P r401 — Veri Gin MeM orial Park aMenDMent a ct, 2009 The h ouse in c ommittee of the Whole (Section

b) on bill Pr401; l. r eid in the chair. The committee met at 2:28 p.m. Sections 1 to 3 inclusive approved.

Preamble approved. t itle approved. K. Conroy: i move that the committee rise and report the bill complete without amendment. Motion approved. The committee rose at 2:29 p.m. The h ouse resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. Report and Third Reading of Bills bill P r401 — Veri Gin MeM orial Park aMenDMent a ct, 2009 bill Pr401, Verigin Memorial Park a mendment a ct, 2009, reported complete without amendment, read a third time and passed. Hon. G.

Abbott: i call second reading debate on bill Pr402, t rustee board of the c hurch of God, r ichmond Municipality, b.c. (c orporate r estoration) a ct, 2009. [1430] Second Reading of Bills bill P r402 — t ru Stee boar D o F the church o F Go D, richM onD MuniciP alit Y, b.c. (c orPorate r e Storation) a ct, 2009 R.

Howard: i move that the bill be now read a second time. inadvertently, more than ten years ago reports were not filed, which caused the society to be stricken from the register. h aving discovered this, they now seek to be restored to the register. because it was ten years ago, it requires legislation, which is before us now. i move second reading.

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, o ctober 27, 2009 1623 Motion approved. R. Howard: Mr. Speaker, by leave, i move that the bill be referred to a c ommittee of the Whole h ouse to be considered forthwith. l eave granted. bill Pr402, t rustee board of the c hurch of God, r ich- mond Municipality, b.c. (c orporate r estoration) a ct, 2009, read a second time and referred to a c ommittee of the Whole h ouse for consideration forthwith. Committee of the Whole House bi ll P r402 — t ru Stee boar D o F the church o F Go D, richM onD MuniciP alit Y, b.c. (c orPorate r e Storation) a ct, 2009 The h ouse in c ommittee of the Whole (Section

b) on bill Pr402; l. r eid in the chair. The committee met at 2:31 p.m. Sections 1 to 5 inclusive approved.

Preamble approved. t itle approved. R. Howard: i move that the committee rise and report the bill complete without amendment. Motion approved. The committee rose at 2:32 p.m. The h ouse resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. Report and Third Reading of Bills bi ll P r402 — t ru Stee boar D o F the church o F Go D, richM onD MuniciP alit Y, b.c. (c orPorate r e Storation) a ct, 2009 bill Pr402, t rustee board of the c hurch of God, r ich- mond Municipality, b.c. (c orporate r estoration) a ct, 2009, reported complete without amendment, read a third time and passed. Hon. G.

Abbott: c ontinuing this furious pace of pass- ing legislation, i call second reading debate on Pr403, intituled Victoria Foundation a mendment a ct, 2009. Second Reading of Bills bill P r403 — Victoria Foun Dation aMenDMent a ct, 2009 R. Sultan: i move that the bill be now read a second time. Mr. Speaker: c ontinue, Member. R. Sultan: Mr. Speaker, Pr403, the Victoria Foundation a mendment a ct, 2009, pertains to the wonderful insti- tution of the Victoria Foundation, the second-oldest foundation in british c olumbia and a key building block in the philanthropic institutions of this part of british c olumbia.

The directors of the Victoria Foundation have requested amendments to their act, principally to do with two issues which have arisen — namely, the flexibility with which they can make bequests and grants in difficult financial circumstances, both from capital and income, and, secondly, to clarify any possible ambiguity in the

interpretation by the c anadian r evenue a gency of enduring property under their statutes. This bill will clarify these matters and allow the Victoria Foundation to carry on. Mr. Speaker: Seeing no further speakers, the member closes debate. Move second reading, Member. R. Sultan: i move second reading. Motion approved. R. Sultan: Mr.

Speaker, by leave, i move that the bill be referred to a c ommittee of the Whole h ouse to be considered forthwith. l eave granted. bill Pr403, Victoria Foundation a mendment a ct, 2009, read a second time and referred to a c ommittee of the Whole h ouse for consideration forthwith. Committee of the Whole House bill P r403 — Victoria Foun Dation aMenDMent a ct, 2009 The h ouse in c ommittee of the Whole (Section

b) on bill Pr403; l. r eid in the chair. The committee met at 2:34 p.m. Sections 1 to 10 inclusive approved.

british c olumbia Debates1624 t uesday, o ctober 27, 2009 t itle approved. R. Sultan: i move that the committee rise and report the bill complete without amendment. Motion approved. The committee rose at 2:35 p.m. The h ouse resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. Report and Third Reading of Bills bill P r403 — Victoria Foun Dation aMenDMent a ct, 2009 bill Pr403, Victoria Foundation a mendment a ct, 2009, reported complete without amendment, read a third time and passed. Hon. G.

Abbott: i call committee stage debate on bill 7, Police (Misconduct, c omplaints, investigations, Discipline and Proceedings) a mendment a ct, 2009. Committee of the Whole House bill 7 — Police (Mi Scon Duct, c o MPlaint S, in Ve Sti Gation S, DiSciP line anD ProceeD in GS) aMenDMent a ct, 2009 (continued) The h ouse in c ommittee of the Whole (Section

b) on bill 7; l. r eid in the chair. The committee met at 2:38 p.m. on

section 10,

section 101. M. Farnworth: This

section is about the member's duty to cooperate with the investigating officer, answer ques- tions and provide written statements, and it seems a pretty straightforward thing. i just want to confirm and ensure that if there are new provisions in this particular section, how much is new, and how much is out of the report? Hon. M. de Jong: Just cross-checking the old act. My best information is that the positive statutory obligation that this creates is new.

Section 10, sections 101 and 102 approved. on

section 10,

section 103. [1440] M. Farnworth: i understand the member from Prince George's enthusiasm. h owever, we still have a few ques- tions left. "investigation powers in relation to other premises." if the minister can confirm that this is a new

section in the act…. i think it's also important in the sense that what this

section is saying is that in relation to an inves- tigation in regard to a complaint, it's not just the work- ing environments that the commissioner is allowed to conduct the investigation, but if there is a sense that there may be evidence in premises outside the work- ing environment, then the commissioner or the person doing the investigation has the ability to go to those premises or to that place and to either seek or obtain evidence. is that correct? Hon.

M. de Jong: With the single exception that it would be the investigating officer as opposed to the commissioner himself or herself, i think everything the member pointed out in description is correct. it is new, and the final comment i would make is that the ability to obtain the kind of authorization, court- ordered authorization or warrant, contemplated here would also be subject to the usual tests around establish- ing reasonable and probable grounds for the expectation that relevant evidence would be found.

Section 10, sections 103 and 104 approved. on

section 10,

section 105. M. Farnworth:

Section 105 deals with copies admis- sible in evidence. Just to clarify this section, then, that in the case of the investigation, a copy of a record is some- thing that will be admissible, and the fact that it is a copy is not going to impede in any way an investigation from taking place. Hon. M. de Jong: That is, i believe, an accurate description. it is new with respect to this part of the act, and it finally, i think, follows a trend that we see emer - ging around the assumed reliability, where properly attested to, of photocopies of documents. M.

Farnworth: i'll just make one observation. it would be nice if we could have this particular piece of policy in other areas of our day-to-day existence — where a copy of a certificate would suffice in order to obtain a licence or something like that.

Section 10, sections 105 and 106 approved. on

section 10,

section 107. M. Farnworth: a gain, this one appears to be fairly self- evident, but i just want to…. "Duty of investigating officer

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, o ctober 27, 2009 1625 to keep records and produce them." That is a requirement from the moment the complaint is received, or from the moment the complaint is starting to be investigated? Hon. M. de Jong: it wouldn't be upon receipt of the complaint, necessarily. it would be from the appoint- ment of the investigating officer, because only at that point would the individual know that they are the inves- tigating officer and, therefore, have the obligation set out in

section 107. [1445]

Section 10, sections 107 to 109 inclusive approved. on

section 10,

section 110. M. Farnworth: The member from r ichmond shouldn't look quite so surprised that i stood up on this one. This

section is an important section. it deals with the member's reassignment or suspension pending inves- tigation and hearing. The discipline authority has the power to reassign, transfer or suspend the member if they feel that not doing so will cause harm to others, discredit the department or that the member is not able to carry out his or her regular duties. The board can decide whether the suspension is with or without pay. Prior to making a decision, the member must be given the opportunity to speak to the board. a t any time the board may reconsider its decision.

This section, then, is in essence saying that it's the police board that will make that decision. is that cor - rect? or does the commissioner have the ability — or the person doing the investigation — to say it's appro- priate or that they feel that the individual under inves- tigation should either be reassigned or suspended? i just want to make sure, to clarify exactly who makes that decision. Hon. M. de Jong: The two individuals or agencies that are assigned the authority the member speaks of are the discipline authority or the board.

The sections do not contemplate the Police c omplaint c ommissioner rendering the decision around suspension with pay or without pay.

Section 10,

section 110 approved. on

section 10,

section 111. M. Farnworth:

Section 111, "if police complaint com- missioner considers that member or former member has committed offence." My reading of this relates back to the issue i raised earlier — that if, during the course of an investigation, something else is uncovered, then this is the

section that would deal with that. is that correct? Hon. M. de Jong: i'm sorry. That took longer than necessary for me to say yes.

Section 10,

section 111 approved. on

section 10,

section 112. M. Farnworth:

Section 112, "Discipline authority to review final investigation report and give early notice of next steps." This section, then, would deal with…. once the report is done, the discipline authority has the ability to review the report before it goes up to…. The investigator has done the report. The report goes to the disciplining authority, or does it go to the com- missioner first? What is being anticipated with this par - ticular section? [1450] Hon. M. de Jong: The answer with respect to

section 112 is that it goes to the discipline authority first. but i am reminded that pursuant to a

section we already cov- ered,

section 98, the Police c omplaint c ommissioner will have a copy of the report. M. Farnworth: That's what i want to confirm — that the complaint commissioner has the report basically at the same time that it goes to the disciplinary authority. i assume, then, that when it also goes to the disciplin- ary authority, that's also the time in which it goes to the complainant but also to the individual against whom the complaint is lodged. is that correct? Hon. M. de Jong: Within the ten-day period that is listed there, both the member who is the subject of the complaint and the complainant would also receive the report.

Section 10,

section 112 approved. on

section 10,

section 113. M. Farnworth: u nder this

section once the report is in the hands of the disciplining authority, the commis- sioner will have a report, the complainant has a report and the member against whom the complaint is made has a report. The complainant then, upon the receipt of that report and reviewing that report, in this particular section, within ten days has the ability to make further submissions to that report.

Would that be, for example, if they feel that certain issues were not addressed or if there is further informa- tion? is that the intent of this particular section? or if they take issue with what they are seeing in the report at this particular point? Hon. M. de Jong: The member is correct. it does con- template further submissions following the receipt of

british c olumbia Debates1626 t uesday, o ctober 27, 2009 the final investigation report, broadly speaking, in three areas: in respect of the complaint itself, the adequacy of the investigation or the appropriate range of discipline that would be available. So broadly speaking, additional submissions in those three categories. M. Farnworth: h ow would this

section work either in the context where a number of complaints have been condensed into one or in the context of a third party? Would they have the same ability to make comment and submissions? h ow do you deal with the issue where the individual complaints have been condensed into one? Would those individuals all have the same opportunity? [1455] Hon. M. de Jong: it all sort of hinges on what the status is of the individual involved.

The right accrues to the complainant, so in the case of a consolidation, those complaints consolidated may still each have a complain- ant within the meaning of the act. in a circumstance where there is a third-party com- plaint and subsequently someone more directly involved brings a complaint and the action of the third party is discontinued, then whilst the third party may continue to receive updates on the progress of the complaint, they wouldn't necessarily be a complainant any longer. Therefore, the right that exists here would not accrue to that individual. M.

Farnworth: but there would potentially or pos- sibly be circumstances where they would have that right, even though in the general sense they wouldn't. is that correct? Hon. M. de Jong: if they remained a complainant. That would be the key.

Section 10,

section 113 approved. on

section 10,

section 114. M. Farnworth: This

section is basically the opposite of the preceding

section in the sense that in this particu- lar case it's the member who is being investigated who has got a copy of the report and then is saying: "o kay, i think there are issues here that haven't been addressed properly or need to be addressed." So if the minister could clarify how this

section is intended to work — in the same way that the last one is, is my understanding. Hon. M. de Jong: a couple of things. This is new. it does flow from the recommendations of Mr. Justice Wood. it is built, i think, around the principle of fair - ness, because for the member involved, the disposition of these matters can have huge ramifications — career ramifications, in many cases.

The objective — as the member of this h ouse fairly pointed out — is to ensure that a member who is the subject of a complaint would have an opportunity to examine the record and, if he or she felt necessary, say: "h old on. before this is ultimately dealt with, my view is that there is an incomplete record or that the examina- tion didn't properly consider or look at evidence that i am aware of and want to make sure is before the inves- tigating officer." it is an attempt flowing from the recommendations of Mr.

Justice Wood to recognize the serious ramifications that can follow and that a member have an opportun- ity to make input to ensure that the investigation is as complete as possible.

Section 10,

section 114 approved. on

section 10,

section 115. M. Farnworth: a gain, this

section follows on from that in the sense that if that is taken…. The minister is right. one of the key things about this particular piece of legislation is that it needs to be deemed fair from the point of view of the complainant but also fair from the individual who is being investigated. one of the key issues in the Joe Wood report was that that, in fact, take place. if the member who's being investigated gets the report and says, "o kay, there are issues here," then the next step is how that's dealt with. So if the minister can just indi- cate how this

section is intended to work, particularly in terms of…. if a member introduces or gets a report and says, "i don't think this is complete. i don't think this particu- lar issue has been considered" or "i think this piece of evidence has been ignored or not looked at," and the member puts that forward, then i would presume that the complainant then has the opportunity and the inves- tigator also has the opportunity to investigate thoroughly those new facts or the issues that have been raised. if that's not correct, please tell me. [1500] Hon.

M. de Jong: That is the intention, with this added caveat. it is not intended to represent a mechan- ism by which investigations go on forever. That is why there is the 15-day period within which that additional examination and investigation must be completed.

Section 10, sections 115 and 116 approved. on

section 10,

section 117. M. Farnworth: "appointment of new discipline author- ity if conclusion of no misconduct is incorrect." So the discipline authority says that no misconduct occurred.

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, o ctober 27, 2009 1627 Subsequent investigation reveals, in fact, that that is not the case. What this

section is saying is: "o kay, there will be a new disciplining authority in place that will deal with the facts in the final report." That is to ensure two things: fairness and that everything is aboveboard in regard to the complaint itself, but also that the disciplining author- ity is not biased in any way and is making a decision based on the actual facts of the final report before it as opposed to the issue around the disciplining authority that was incorrect in its no-misconduct assumption in the first place. is my understanding of that the right one? Hon.

M. de Jong: it's an important section, not just with respect to extended examinations. it can go to the heart of the decision about whether or not there has been misconduct. in his report Mr. Justice Wood spoke of his preference that the Police c omplaint c ommissioner have an ability to look at the record, look at the report and take action if he or she profoundly disagreed with the finding. i should say this to the member and the h ouse. My recollection is that his report suggested that the Police c omplaint c ommissioner be able to substitute his or her decision for that of the investigating officer.

The act does not quite chronicle that, because the notion is that the complaint commissioner, as the overseer of the pro- cess — an independent officer — not simply step in and substitute his or her view. What the

section is designed to do is provide the complaint commissioner with the ability to appoint, as i recall, a retired judge. it specifies the nature of the indi- vidual. i'm trying to find the subsection — subsection (4) of 114 — where the Police c omplaint c ommissioner would say: "l ook, i've got some problems here, and i am going to appoint a retired judge to conduct an examina- tion of this within a further ten business days." in those circumstances it is the retired judge who, in effect, becomes the new discipline authority. it's a slight variation on what Mr.

Justice Wood recommended, but it is for that reason that it has been crafted in this way. [1505] M.

Farnworth: in essence then, if the finding comes out and there's an issue, a problem here, or there's a feel- ing that there was a problem with the disciplining body in the final report…. if the commissioner takes issue with that, rather than…. in the initial report, the Joe Wood report, the Police c omplaint c ommissioner would be the individual who could step in. h e has the authority then, under this act, to say: "o kay, i've got a problem with this. i think there's an issue here that has not been addressed." Then it is a judicial individual who will sit and adjudicate, and it will not be anybody other than a judicial individual. o kay.

Who will make that appointment? Who will decide who the judge is? interjections. M. Farnworth: The clarification to the thing…. it says: "…consult with retired judges of…the Supreme c ourt and the c ourt of a ppeal, and (

b) recommend one or more retired judges…." When i read that, it's like, okay, you're going to get the judge recommending one or two or three. is the commissioner the one who will choose which of those judges, or does the commissioner have to consult with anybody else, such as the ministry, to determine which judge is going to be chosen? Hon. M. de Jong: Pursuant to these provisions, the dis- cussion takes place exclusively between the Police c om- plaint c ommissioner and the associate chief justice.

Section 10, sections 117 and 118 approved. on

section 10,

section 119. M. Farnworth:

Section 119 is also an important sec- tion. "Member or former member may request permis- sion to question witnesses at discipline proceeding." if the minister could outline the intent of this section. is this an opportunity for the complainant to question…? is it the issue around the discipline itself or the review of evidence provided by the complainant, for example? e xactly how is this intended to work and function? Hon.

M. de Jong: inadvertently, perhaps, i think the member referred to "the complainant." This provision refers specifically to the ability of the member who is the subject of the complaint to engage in certain activities. M. Farnworth: i guess i'm talking in the context of witnesses. if someone is a witness at the discipline pro- ceeding, that means only those people involved in the discipline itself — not those who have been a witness in the investigation itself. That's what i'm trying to estab- lish here. [1510] Hon. M. de Jong: a gain, it's an important

section because it relates to the procedural fairness of the pro- ceedings, and these are newly specified and enumerated. The member who is the subject of the complaint, by virtue of

section 119, is provided with the ability to conduct cross-examinations. There are, i am advised, certain expectations around how that would take place, especially when it relates to the complainant themselves — for example, not at the police station. There are means by which the procedural fairness for the complainant

british c olumbia Debates1628 t uesday, o ctober 27, 2009 is also protected. This

section refers to the rights of the member. Whilst the complainant achieves, by virtue of this act, important participatory rights, i don't want to leave an incomplete answer. i am advised that those rights do not include the ability to cross-examine witnesses. in fact, an officer will be appointed to ensure that those activities…. it won't be left to the complainant to run the proceed- ings from the point of view of the complaint itself.

While the member has the ability to cross-examine and call and examine witnesses, the participatory rights of the complainant are slightly different than they are for the member who is the subject of the complaint. M. Farnworth: i think it's important, so that we fully understand how this is going to work. The issue of nat- ural justice and fairness — i think that's understood.

The question then becomes if i as the member who is the subject of the disciplinary action…. i've got the report, i see this, and i'm not happy, or i think there are some issues that have not been addressed or need to be addressed. i have the ability to question people who were deemed to be witnesses or provided evidence against me, as the member. That may be another police officer, it may be the person who's done the investiga- tion, or it may be the complainant themselves. is that correct? [1515] Hon.

M. de Jong: i think the way, in practice, that these sections operate is that — following through on the member's example — the member who is the subject of the complaint shall have the right to cross-examine anyone who is bringing evidence against that member in the proceedings.

That would include the complainant. a complaint that moves forward and is relying upon information or evidence being presented by the com- plainant…. a necessary part of that will be that the complainant in those circumstances will be subject to cross-examination, under a certain set of conditions, by the member whose conduct is being complained of. M.

Farnworth: Then how would that work with regards to situations where, again, you had a series of complaints condensed into one or by third-party infor - mation that the commissioner deems to have merit of investigation, but where the information is provided anonymously? h ow is that situation dealt with in regard to this? Hon. M. de Jong: The procedural protection that is created here is designed with respect to evidence that is called. So the member is correct.

There could be any number of original complainants and then consolida- tions, but the procedural protection is that the member who is the subject of the complaint shall have the right to cross-examine the source of evidence that is being heard in those proceedings. M.

Farnworth: in essence, if it is third-party infor - mation that's provided anonymously and the Police c omplaint c ommissioner deems that to be a valid reason to do the investigation, would the member then be able to cross-examine the Police c omplaint c ommissioner as the individual who received the information? is that how that would work? is that what i'm hearing? Hon. M. de Jong: h ere's, i think, the important dis- tinction. a n original complaint is not evidence. it is, as i am reminded, what appears in the investigation report that goes to a disciplinary proceeding. That lies at the heart of the matter.

So in that sense, it becomes less rel- evant with respect to the original complaint. That is not evidence per se. it may evolve to that as part of the inves- tigative report.

Section 10,

section 119 approved. on

section 10,

section 120. M. Farnworth: The pre-hearing conference is the initial stage in terms of how it takes place. it sets out the guidelines and the methodology and the steps and the procedures to be followed. c an the minister explain how much of this is new, as compared to existing? a re there any significant changes compared to the current practice of pre-hearing conferences? Hon. M. de Jong: i'll answer that question right after i alert the member to a very technical amendment that exists. i'll send over the amendment that i'm presenting. [SECTION 10, in the proposed

section 120 (4), by deleting the text shown as struck out and adding the text shown as underlined:

(4) Despite subsection (3) (b) (ii) (i), the discipline author- ity may offer a prehearing conference to a member or former member if, in the police complaint commis- sioner’s opinion, it would not be contrary to the public interest.] [1520] on the amendment. Hon. M. de Jong: it relates to

section 120(4). a s the member can now see, there is an incorrect reference to 3(b)(ii). That reference should be 3(b)(i). i wonder if we can deal with that amendment first. M. Farnworth: The amendment is an appropriate one for that section. a mendment approved.

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, o ctober 27, 2009 1629 on

section 10,

section 120 as amended. M. Farnworth: i just want to ask the minister: in terms of the

section on the pre-hearing conference, what are the key objectives in terms of that? What does the

section anticipate being able to accomplish? Hon. M. de Jong: The notion of a pre-hearing confer- ence, i'm reminded, is not entirely new, but there are some new elements being introduced here. broadly speaking, the idea is that, except in very serious cases, there would be an opportunity to con- sider — outside of the discipline proceeding — what the appropriate sanction might be. but as the member will see from the lengthy provisions of the section, there are some procedural protections for the complainant as well.

First and foremost, there must be a statement from the complainant, and there must be an awareness on the part of the complainant about the proceeding. Mr. Justice Wood also made clear his thoughts that a pre-hearing conference and a discipline proceeding should not be presided over by the same individual. So there is an attempt to provide an outlet through which a matter can be resolved — except, i should say, in the most serious types of cases — but at the same time to ensure that that does not become a shortcut for dis- counting the views of the complainant who initiated the process in the first place. M.

Farnworth: What i hear the minister saying is that under this

section on the pre-hearing conference, you have the…. it is designed so that the issues around witnesses by the member are addressed. The procedures and protections are in place for the complainant and in terms of how that's going to take place and how those issues are dealt with at that particular point. [1525] it's also a point in the complaint process, in essence, where an issue can be resolved at that particular point as opposed to moving further down the path. in essence, you would have gone through the possibility of media- tion prior to this to see if that resolves the complaint.

The complaint continues along down this particular path. e xcepting the very serious complaints — let's just for the sake of argument say either physical abuse, assault or what have you — at this particular point, at the pre-hearing, you can still use that as an opportunity to resolve the complaint before it goes further down the track. Would that be the right assessment of the way in which this

section is going to work? Hon.

M. de Jong: i think probably my explanation varies slightly from what the member has suggested. i don't want to leave the impression that this is some manner of mediation that is available at every step along the way. in fact, what triggers this, primarily, is a finding by the D a or the investigating officer that there is suf- ficient evidence to warrant going to a full disciplinary hearing. i think that's probably an important step along the way. a t that point the discipline authority has the option of saying to the member involved that there is an opportun- ity to have a pre-hearing conference to consider things like an admission of misconduct or an alternate means of resolving the matter. it's an option. it won't happen in the most serious cases, and it doesn't need to happen in every case.

My understanding is that it's not an entitlement on the part of the member, but there is that important step where the discipline authority has said: "i think there's enough evidence here to go to a discipline hearing. a re you interested in pursuing another path to try and resolve this?" [c. t revena in the chair.] M.

Farnworth: i thank the minister for that explan- ation. a ssuming that takes place — and assume for a moment that there is a resolution at this particular point — how is that dealt with in terms of being communi- cated to the public if in fact it is communicated to the public? in terms of the complaint process, a lot of times at the end of the outcome there is an issue publicly or an acknowledgment of some sort, either written or oral. in a process that anticipates or may anticipate it going to the full length, and at this particular point there is an admission, how is that communicated out to the public? or is it? [1530] Hon.

M. de Jong: t wo points. First, before it becomes final and binding, the nature of the disposition we've been discussing as part of a one-session pre-hearing conference would need to be approved by the Police c omplaint c ommissioner. That's one component. Secondly, that settlement arrived at during a pre-hear- ing conference must be communicated to the complain- ant; obviously, the Police c omplaint c ommissioner; and the member involved. M. Farnworth: The follow-up question to that would be…. i understand all those individuals. h ow about the public? h ow are they notified, or are they not?

Then a second question would be…. u nder section (16), the resolution is "final and conclusive and not open to question or review by a court on any ground." is there any concern by the ministry around issues such as a legal challenge or a court challenge to that? because that is a pretty definitive statement. Hon. M. de Jong: i've been alerted to a

section we haven't come to yet, which is 177(d), which imposes a posi-

british c olumbia Debates1630 t uesday, o ctober 27, 2009 tive obligation on the Police c omplaint c ommissioner to establish and maintain a record of each complaint, inves- tigation and disposition. but i also want to say this, in fairness to the member. it's not contemplated that the disposition of each and every complaint will give rise to a press release that alerts the world. Some of these may turn out to be more serious. Some of them may turn out to be far more minor.

There is an obligation to maintain a record of disposition, but i don't want to suggest that every single decision or settlement is going to give rise to a widely circulated public statement. M. Farnworth: i understand the minister's explana- tion. i guess the key is that there is a public record. The interest in the minor ones, i think, is not likely to be there. h owever, for others, i think that's a different story, and i just want to make sure that that ability is there — that there is the ability for the public to see exactly how something was disposed of and the consequences thereof. Hon.

M. de Jong: i think that assurance, in part, is contained at

section 177(

f) where, again, the positive obligation to maintain the records and reports respect- ing all of these matters and the statement "and make those reports available to the public" is contained. So there does seem to be positive statutory assurance that the public will have access to the decisions that are being made.

Section 10,

section 120 as amended approved. on

section 10,

section 121. [1535] M. Farnworth: This

section deals with if the mem- ber's or the former member's request to question wit- nesses is accepted. a s the minister said, we dealt in earlier sections with the ability to ask questions of former witnesses, and this particular

section deals with issues around legal representation. i just want the min- ister to clarify this

section in how it's intended to func- tion and how it will apply to both the member and the complainant. Hon. M. de Jong: i think the long and the short of it is that this

section — and the member correctly refer - ences some of the early sections…. once that decision has been made and the prerequisites have been met around allowing for the cross-examination processes to begin, this sets out the basis for which legal counsel will be appointed to assist in the proceedings. i think the upshot is that you end up at that stage with a far more formalized process than may often be the case. in many cases that will be entirely appropriate, given the gravity of the situation or the allegations involved, but what we see here is the evolution along the continuum of formality, where legal counsel will be appointed to assist the discipline authority with the conduct of the proceedings.

Section 10,

section 121 approved. on

section 10,

section 122. M. Farnworth: This

section deals with fees and expenses, and it's related to the fees and reasonable expenses of a witness required to appear or appearing and also the issue around fees and expenses related to the member — if the member may also be liable for part of or all of those costs. So what circumstances would trigger that? [1540] Hon.

M. de Jong: i think the short answer is that if it became apparent at the conclusion of the proceedings that the member was calling witnesses that added vir - tually nothing to the proceedings, then this would pro- vide the authority with the option of apportioning those costs. it is admittedly designed to at least make people think a little bit about creating the parade to the post of witnesses. M. Farnworth: i thought that that might be one of the parts of that section.

The other question that flows from that, then: is it also intended to be part of the disciplinary process as, for example, in a trial awarding costs? is that the concept behind this as well — that particular section? Hon. M. de Jong: i may not have understood entirely, but there are no costs per se or hearing fees or anything of that nature. The only cost that i'm aware of would relate to the witness fees. M. Farnworth: in the context of a regular court case, at the end, the judge may award costs. The question was in the context of…. is this also seen in that same light? Y ou've been calling all these witnesses.

The fact is that you've been found to have committed an offence. Y ou've called all these witnesses, and as a result of that…. by the way, you have a disciplinary penalty, but you're also going to pay for the fees of the witnesses. Hon. M. de Jong: i understand better now. it's not designed to be punitive in that sense. it is conceivable, for example, that the member may have called a number of witnesses whose evidence was relevant but not per - suasive in determining the final outcome. in that case, it's not contemplated that the member would be saddled with the costs of calling those witnesses.

british c olumbia Debatest uesday, o ctober 27, 2009 1631

Section 10, sections 122 to 125 inclusive approved. on

section 10,

section 126. M. Farnworth: a t the conclusion of the hearing is the imposition of disciplinary or corrective measures in relation to members. There are a number of factors that are taken into account. in

section 2: "a ggravating and mitigating circumstances must be considered in deter - mining just and appropriate disciplinary or corrective measures in relation to the misconduct of a member of a municipal police department, including, without limita- tion…." a nd it lists that. This list of aggravating circumstances — are they only the ones here that are prescribed, or can other factors also be taken into account? Hon. M. de Jong: The listing contained in 126(1) in terms of sanction, if you will, is taken and adapted from the current code-of-professional-conduct regulation.

So it's there. [1545] i think i heard two concepts being mixed. is the member's question: can there be sanctions that extend beyond what is described here? because down below, in subsection (2)(h), there is clearly an ability to consider "other aggravating or mitigating factors" in determining what the appropriate sanction is. is the member's question whether or not, in imposing sanction, the discipline authority is restricted to those options listed in sub (1) of the section? M. Farnworth: t o the latter question i would say yes, that is one of the questions.

The other question is in terms of aggravating circum- stances. i just want to make sure that that either is deal- ing with the existing code of conduct, which a member is to abide by — so the violation of that…. i'm thinking of issues such as racism, homophobia, sexism. That's what i'm thinking of in terms of aggravating circumstances. Hon. M. de Jong: t o the member: there are no lim- itations on the factors that can be taken into account. i think the member has listed two or three that would be relevant to the determination of a just and appropriate disciplinary action.

Section 10,

section 126 approved. on

section 10,

section 127. M. Farnworth: This

section deals with disciplinary or corrective measures in relation to former members. Given, in many cases…. For example, an individual leaves the force. Many of the penalties or the disciplin- ary action would relate to if you stayed with the force — either a reduction in rank, loss of pay, reassignment. a ll those things are not applicable in this particular set of circumstances. h ow does the ministry see this particular

section working, and what type of penalties would be able to apply under this particular section? Hon. M. de Jong: The member is correct in the case of a former member. The conventional employment- related actions are of far more limited utility. in fact, the act recognizes that and the

section recognizes that by saying that the discipline must approach this as if the member were still employed. Practically speaking, the sanction, therefore, and the impact of that relate to its presence on a service record when the member seeks employment elsewhere. There is a record of the proceeding that can be cross-referenced by a future employer. [1550] M.

Farnworth: So in essence, then, what would happen is that it would not just be the case of: "okay, an individual has left the force." if that were to happen under conditions today…. if you were at a new employer…. it would be that i left the employment of X organization, and the prospective employer now phones up. They may or may not get the full story about exactly why the individual left the force or why the individual left the department. instead, what's anticipated, then, under this

section is that the disciplinary hearing and the outcome of that hearing would in fact be accessible to that employer. it would be on the record. if they asked, for example, if that individual had left, it would not be discretionary in terms of saying whether or not they left because of this hearing. it would be there, and the prospective employer would have the ability to see the whole issue that had taken place. is that correct? Hon.

M. de Jong: a n important question. i'm reminded that these provisions, combined with some subsequent provisions, ensure that other policing organizations have guarantees of access to this information. The consent of the member to access the service record — or the former member, in the example we're talking about — is not required. That does not extend to employers outside of the poli- cing community. So the guaranteed access exists for a situation where the former member of police force a decides to leave and take up an offer of employment with police force b. Police force b would have a

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H1027pm-02
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H1027pm 02
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	f1189f90ac94d0f74570730815726e6883e1a631

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