British Columbia Hansard — Thursday, April 1, 2004 (37th Parliament, 5th Session) (h0401pm-05) (h0401pm 05)

h0401pm-05

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

5th Session, 37th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) Thursday, April 1, 2004 Afternoon Sitting Volume 23, Number 5 THE HONOURABLE CLAUDE RICHMOND, SPEAKER ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Honourable Iona Campagnolo 5TH SESSION, 37TH PARLIAMENT SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Claude Richmond EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ............................................................................................................Hon. Gordon Campbell Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations ...............................................................................................................Hon.

Sindi Hawkins Deputy Premier and Minister of Children and Family Development ................................................................................ Hon. Christy Clark Minister of State for Early Childhood Development...................................................................................................................Hon. Linda Reid Minister of Advanced Education................................................................................................................................................ Hon.

Shirley Bond Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries..................................................................................................................... Hon. John van Dongen Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Treaty Negotiations..................................................................................... Hon. Geoff Plant Minister of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services ................................................................................................ Hon.

Murray Coell Minister of State for Women's and Seniors' Services................................................................................................................... Hon. Ida Chong Minister of Education ............................................................................................................................................................Hon. Tom Christensen Minister of Energy and Mines...............................................................................................................................................Hon.

Richard Neufeld Minister of State for Mining...................................................................................................................................................................Hon. Pat Bell Minister of Finance.........................................................................................................................................................................Hon. Gary Collins Minister of Forests................................................................................................................................................................... Hon.

Michael de Jong Minister of State for Forestry Operations.................................................................................................................................. Hon. Roger Harris Minister of Health Services.........................................................................................................................................................Hon. Colin Hansen Minister of State for Mental Health and Addiction Services ....................................................................................................Hon.

Susan Brice Minister of Human Resources........................................................................................................................................................Hon. Stan Hagen Minister of Management Services ............................................................................................................................................. Hon. Joyce Murray Minister of Provincial Revenue.................................................................................................................................................... Hon.

Rick Thorpe Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General...................................................................................................................... Hon. Rich Coleman Minister of Skills Development and Labour......................................................................................................................Hon. Graham P. Bruce Minister of Small Business and Economic Development ...............................................................................................................Hon.

John Les Minister of Sustainable Resource Management ....................................................................................................................Hon. George Abbott Minister of State for Resort Development............................................................................................................................... Hon. Sandy Santori Minister of Transportation...........................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Kevin Falcon Minister of Water, Land and Air Protection ............................................................................................................................... Hon.

Bill Barisoff LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Deputy Speaker ....................................................................................................................................................................................John Weisbeck Leader of the Opposition .......................................................................................................................................................................Joy MacPhail Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole..............................................................................................................................................

Harold Long Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ........................................................................................................................................... E. George MacMinn Clerk Assistant.........................................................................................................................................................................................Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk ...............................................................................................................................................................Ian D.

Izard Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees ....................................................................................................................................... Craig H. James Clerk Assistant and Committee Clerk ..........................................................................................................................................Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms............................................................................................................................................................................. A.A.

Humphreys Director, Hansard Services ..................................................................................................................................................Anthony Dambrauskas Legislative Librarian ..................................................................................................................................................................................Jane Taylor Legislative Comptroller...............................................................................................................................................................................Peter Bray Published by British Columbia Hans ard Services, and printed under the authority of the Speaker by the Queen's Printer, Victoria.

Rates: single issue, $2.85; per calendar year, mailed daily, $298. GST extra. Agent: Crown Publications Inc., 521 Fort St., Victoria, B.C. V8W 1E7. Telephone: (250) 386-4636. Fax: 386-0221. www.leg.bc.ca Hansard Services publishes transcripts both in print and on the Internet. Chamber debates are broadcast on television and webcast on the Internet.

Party Standings: Liberal 74; New Democratic 2; Independent Liberal 3 ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Abbott, Hon. George (L) ..........................................................................Shuswap Anderson, Val J. (L)............................................................... Vancouver-Langara Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)...............................................Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bell, Hon.

Pat (L) ..................................................................Prince George North Belsey, Bill (L)....................................................................................North Coast Bennett, Bill (L) ..............................................................................East Kootenay Bhullar, Tony (Ind. L) ................................................................... Surrey-Newton Bloy, Harry (L).....................................................................................Burquitlam Bond, Hon. Shirley (L)..........................................

Prince George–Mount Robson Bray, Jeff (L) ........................................................................Victoria–Beacon Hill Brenzinger, Elayne (Ind. L)...........................................................Surrey-Whalley Brice, Hon. Susan (L)...................................................................... Saanich South Bruce, Hon. Graham P. (L) ................................................. Cowichan-Ladysmith Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L) ..............................................

Vancouver–Point Grey Cheema, Gulzar S. (L).....................................................Surrey–Panorama Ridge Chong, Hon. Ida (L) ......................................................... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Christensen, Hon. Tom (L) ...................................................... Okanagan-Vernon Chutter, Dave (L) ..............................................................................Yale-Lillooet Clark, Hon.

Christy (L) ....................................................Port Moody–Westwood Cobb, Walt (L) ................................................................................Cariboo South Coell, Hon. Murray (L) ..........................................Saanich North and the Islands Coleman, Hon. Rich (L)................................................Fort Langley–Aldergrove Collins, Hon. Gary (L) ..........................................................Vancouver-Fairview de Jong, Hon. Michael (L) ........................................Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Falcon, Hon.

Kevin (L) ............................................................ Surrey-Cloverdale Hagen, Hon. Stan (L) ......................................................................Comox Valley Halsey-Brandt, Greg (L) ............................................................Richmond Centre Hamilton, Arnie (L)..............................................................Esquimalt-Metchosin Hansen, Hon. Colin (L) .......................................................Vancouver-Quilchena Harris, Hon.

Roger (L) ................................................................................Skeena Hawes, Randy (L)............................................................... Maple Ridge–Mission Hawkins, Hon. Sindi (L) ........................................................... Kelowna-Mission Hayer, Dave S. (L) ..................................................................... Surrey-Tynehead Hogg, Gordon (L)................................................................... Surrey–White Rock Hunter, Mike (L) .....................................................................................

Nanaimo Jarvis, Daniel (L)........................................................North Vancouver–Seymour Johnston, Ken (L).............................................................. Vancouver-Fraserview Kerr, Brian J. (L) ................................................................ Malahat–Juan de Fuca Krueger, Kevin (L)................................................... Kamloops–North Thompson Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)................................

Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Lee, Richard T. (L).........................................................................Burnaby North Lekstrom, Blair (L)................................................................... Peace River South Les, Hon. John (L).................................................................... Chilliwack-Sumas Locke, Brenda (L) ............................................................. Surrey–Green Timbers Long, Harold (L) .................................................... Powell River–Sunshine Coast MacKay, Dennis (L).........................................................

Bulkley Valley–Stikine McMahon, Wendy (L).............................................. Columbia River–Revelstoke MacPhail, Joy (NDP) ............................................................ Vancouver-Hastings Manhas, Karn (L) ..............................................Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Masi, Reni (L) ..................................................................................... Delta North Mayencourt, Lorne (L)............................................................Vancouver-Burrard Murray, Hon. Joyce (L).............................................................

New Westminster Nebbeling, Ted (L)..................................................... West Vancouver–Garibaldi Nettleton, Paul (Ind. L) ...................................................Prince George–Omineca Neufeld, Hon. Richard (L) .......................................................

Peace River North Nijjar, Rob (L).....................................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Nuraney, John (L)..................................................................Burnaby-Willingdon Orr, Sheila (L) .............................................................................Victoria-Hillside Penner, Barry (L)......................................................................... Chilliwack-Kent Plant, Hon. Geoff (L) ...........................................................

Richmond-Steveston Reid, Judith (L)....................................................................... Nanaimo-Parksville Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ..................................................................... Richmond East Richmond, Hon. Claude (L)...................................................................Kamloops Roddick, Valerie (L)............................................................................ Delta South Sahota, Patty (L).......................................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Santori, Hon. Sandy (L) ..............................................

West Kootenay–Boundary Stephens, Lynn (L).................................................................................... Langley Stewart, Ken (L)........................................................ Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Stewart, Richard (L)........................................................Coquitlam-Maillardville Suffredine, Blair F. (L)..................................................................Nelson-Creston Sultan, Ralph (L) .........................................................West Vancouver–Capilano Thorpe, Hon.

Rick (L)............................................................Okanagan-Westside Trumper, Gillian (L)..................................................................Alberni-Qualicum van Dongen, Hon. John (L)..................................................Abbotsford-Clayburn Visser, Rod (L)...................................................................................North Island Weisbeck, John (L).......................................................... Kelowna–Lake Country Whittred, Katherine (L).............................................

North Vancouver–Lonsdale Wilson, John (L)..............................................................................Cariboo North Wong, Patrick (L)..............................................................Vancouver-Kensington LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Clayburn ........................................................ Hon. John van Dongen Abbotsford–Mount Lehman................................................Hon. Michael de Jong Alberni-Qualicum ........................................................................

Gillian Trumper Bulkley Valley–Stikine ................................................................ Dennis MacKay Burnaby North................................................................................ Richard T. Lee Burnaby-Edmonds.............................................................................. Patty Sahota Burnaby-Willingdon ........................................................................John Nuraney Burquitlam............................................................................................

Harry Bloy Cariboo North..................................................................................... John Wilson Cariboo South........................................................................................Walt Cobb Chilliwack-Kent ................................................................................ Barry Penner Chilliwack-Sumas ........................................................................... Hon.

John Les Columbia River–Revelstoke .....................................................Wendy McMahon Comox Valley .............................................................................Hon. Stan Hagen Coquitlam-Maillardville............................................................... Richard Stewart Cowichan-Ladysmith .........................................................Hon. Graham P.

Bruce Delta North.............................................................................................Reni Masi Delta South...................................................................................Valerie Roddick East Kootenay .....................................................................................Bill Bennett Esquimalt-Metchosin .................................................................... Arnie Hamilton Fort Langley–Aldergrove....................................................... Hon.

Rich Coleman Kamloops ......................................................................... Hon. Claude Richmond Kamloops–North Thompson.......................................................... Kevin Krueger Kelowna–Lake Country .................................................................John Weisbeck Kelowna-Mission ...................................................................Hon. Sindi Hawkins Langley........................................................................................... Lynn Stephens Malahat–Juan de Fuca.......................................................................

Brian J. Kerr Maple Ridge–Mission ......................................................................Randy Hawes Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows............................................................... Ken Stewart Nanaimo .............................................................................................Mike Hunter Nanaimo-Parksville..............................................................................Judith Reid Nelson-Creston......................................................................... Blair F.

Suffredine New Westminster .................................................................... Hon. Joyce Murray North Coast .......................................................................................... Bill Belsey North Island.......................................................................................... Rod Visser North Vancouver–Lonsdale .................................................... Katherine Whittred North Vancouver–Seymour ..............................................................

Daniel Jarvis Oak Bay–Gordon Head.................................................................Hon. Ida Chong Okanagan-Vernon ..............................................................Hon. Tom Christensen Okanagan-Westside................................................................... Hon. Rick Thorpe Peace River North ...............................................................Hon. Richard Neufeld Peace River South ..........................................................................Blair Lekstrom Penticton–Okanagan Valley...................................................... Hon.

Bill Barisoff Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain......................................................Karn Manhas Port Moody–Westwood ...........................................................Hon. Christy Clark Powell River–Sunshine Coast............................................................Harold Long Prince George North .........................................................................Hon. Pat Bell Prince George–Mount Robson................................................. Hon. Shirley Bond Prince George–Omineca .................................................................

Paul Nettleton Richmond Centre ...................................................................Greg Halsey-Brandt Richmond East ............................................................................ Hon. Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston ...................................................................Hon. Geoff Plant Saanich North and the Islands..................................................Hon. Murray Coell Saanich South............................................................................. Hon. Susan Brice Shuswap ................................................................................

Hon. George Abbott Skeena .......................................................................................Hon. Roger Harris Surrey-Cloverdale ....................................................................Hon. Kevin Falcon Surrey–Green Timbers.....................................................................Brenda Locke Surrey-Newton ..................................................................................Tony Bhullar Surrey–Panorama Ridge............................................................ Gulzar S.

Cheema Surrey-Tynehead .............................................................................Dave S. Hayer Surrey-Whalley ........................................................................ Elayne Brenzinger Surrey–White Rock.......................................................................... Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Burrard .................................................................. Lorne Mayencourt Vancouver-Fairview..................................................................Hon. Gary Collins Vancouver-Fraserview .....................................................................

Ken Johnston Vancouver-Hastings......................................................................... Joy MacPhail Vancouver-Kensington .................................................................... Patrick Wong Vancouver-Kingsway............................................................................ Rob Nijjar Vancouver-Langara...................................................................... Val J. Anderson Vancouver–Mount Pleasant .............................................Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey..................................................... Hon.

Gordon Campbell Vancouver-Quilchena ............................................................. Hon. Colin Hansen Victoria–Beacon Hill ...............................................................................Jeff Bray Victoria-Hillside.....................................................................................Sheila Orr West Kootenay–Boundary ......................................................Hon. Sandy Santori West Vancouver–Capilano ............................................................... Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi............................................................

Ted Nebbeling Yale-Lillooet .....................................................................................Dave Chutter

CONTENTS Thursday, April 1, 2004 Afternoon Sitting Routine Proceedings Page Introductions by Members ....................................................................................................... ............................................ 10061 Statements (Standing Order 25 B) .............................................................................................................................. ........... 10061 Vaisakhi Day P. Sahota Volunteerism in Tri-Cities K. Manhas Methamphetamine use L.

Mayencourt Oral Questions................................................................................................................. ....................................................... 10062 Government spending on health care advertising J. MacPhail Hon. C. Hansen Funding for Picasso Cafe J. Kwan Hon. S. Hagen Mining activities in parks P. Nettleton Hon. R. Neufeld Safety of Trans-Canada Highway between Pritchard and Chase K. Krueger Hon. K.

Falcon Tabling Documents.............................................................................................................. .................................................. 10065 Simon Fraser University Surrey Central City Campus Major Capital Project Plan Motions on Notice.............................................................................................................. .................................................... 10065 Powers of Crown Corporations Committee (Motion 107) Hon. G. Collins Referral of reports to committees and powers of Public Accounts Committee (Motion 108) Hon. G.

Collins Powers of Health Committee (Motion 109) Hon. G. Collins Powers of Finance and Government Services Committee (Motion 110) Hon. G. Collins Powers of Education Committee (Motion 111) Hon. G. Collins Second Reading of Bills........................................................................................................ ................................................. 10067 Water, Land and Air Protection Statutes Amendment Act, 2004 (Bill 16) Hon. B. Barisoff Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment Act, 2004 (Bill 18) Hon. G.

Plant Committee of Supply............................................................................................................ ................................................. 10070 Estimates: Ministry of Human Resources (continued) J. MacPhail Hon. S. Hagen L. Mayencourt V. Roddick

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room Committee of Supply............................................................................................................ ................................................. 10088 Estimates: Ministry of Education (continued) Hon. T. Christensen J. Kwan

10061 THURSDAY, APRIL 1, 2004 The House met at 2:05 p.m. [J. Weisbeck in the chair.] Introductions by Members Hon. S. Brice: I have the pleasure of introducing a class in the House today not only from my riding but also from my neighbourhood. I would like to introduce the 27 grade 5 students from Lochside Elementary School who are here with parents and their two teach- ers, Ms. Rowena Keeb and Ms. Donna Thornton. I would ask the House to make them welcome. K. Krueger: In the precinct this afternoon is some- one who is making her very first appearance ever in the precinct. Her name is Johanna Weir.

She is a brand- new baby born to Sarah Bonner, the managing director of our caucus, and her husband, Patrick Weir. Would the House please make Johanna, Patrick and Sarah all very welcome. P. Nettleton: I am pleased today to introduce to the House Mr. Joe Foy and Mr. Ken Wu, representing the Western Canada Wilderness Committee. Please join me in welcoming these gentlemen. Statements (Standing Order 25

B) VAISAKHI DAY P. Sahota: On April 10 the lower mainland will see thousands of people coming together from all over North America to celebrate one of the most important religious holidays of the Sikh faith, Vaisakhi. The Pre- mier, my colleagues and I will be attending many of those celebrations for this special day. Vaisakhi, com- memorating the founding of the Khalsa, is built around the values of universal justice, tolerance and shared prosperity. Festivals and celebrations like these allow us to reflect on the contribution that the Sikh community has made and continues to make to British Columbia.

People from the Indian su bcontinent have been in Canada for over 100 years. From those earliest days the pioneers have worked hard to contribute to this coun- try. Today the descendants of those pioneers are prominent in business, medicine, education, law and politics. By sheer hard work and determination, they have given their children better futures than they would have had anywhere else in the world. Canada has given people from all over the world a home to call their own. Those from India, particularly, feel a special allegiance and loyalty to this great coun- try.

People like Baltej Dhillon, the first Mountie al- lowed to wear a turban; Shushma Datt, a pioneer in media; pioneers in forestry like Asa Johal, Herb Do- man, Jack Uppal, the late Tera Singh Ghog and Norm Sangha; and people like Justice Wally Oppal. This year something special is taking place on Vaisakhi, and it is because of a special individual. Bur- naby resident and Rotarian Anup Jubbal is president of Canadian Eyesight International. Because of his leader- ship, Canadian Eyesight International has treated over 100,000 people in India. In the spirit of giving back and in the spirit of Vaisakhi, Mr.

Jubbal's organization has teamed up with Dr. David Neima and Dr. Amrik Pane- sar. These eye doctors will be conducting free eye screening and eye checkups on Sunday, April 11, at the Ross Street Sikh temple. I want to thank all the organizers for offering this service to the community an d for their humanitarian w o r k t h a t t h e y h a v e u n d e r t a k e n i n I n d i a . T o d a y I s a - lute and applaud the dedication, determination and perseverance of Mr. Anup Jubbal and all the pioneers. Happy Vaisakhi. VOLUNTEERISM IN TRI-CITIES K.

Manhas: Today I am proud to announce what promises to be a new institution in the Tri-Cities. Our community's first-ever Volunteer Fest will be held at the Coquitlam Centre on Sa turday, April 24. The event will showcase the various non-profit and volunteer- intensive groups and clubs that build the fabric of our community, keep it safe and increase the quality of our life and our environment. It will highlight the impor- tant work done by volunteers in our region and will celebrate the many positive changes individuals can make by taking active roles in their community and their neighbourhoods.

It is volunteers that bring out the best in a community and make it the best it can be. I want to thank all the dedicated volunteers out there for making a difference and setting a great exam- p l e , a n d I w a n t t o e n c o u r a g e m o r e p e o p l e t o d o t h e same. My colleagues in the Tri-City caucus and I have been working alongside the community volunteer con- nections, the society for community development, Arts Connect and the Tri-Cities Chamber of Commerce. Each of our municipalities has expressed support and is considering financial and technical support.

I want to thank the member for New Westminster for showing a great example that has inspired us. I want to thank our major sponsors for supporting and promoting the event and allowing us to make it hap- pen, including the Coquitlam Centre, the Tri-City News, the Coquitlam NOW , Visual Planet Design Group and others yet to come. [1410] I'd like to encourage any person or organization interested in participating or sponsoring the event to contact Cathy Lister at the community volunteer centre or to contact my constituency office or the office of any of my Tri-City MLA colleagues to get registered.

Space is limited and is filling up very quickly. I want to encourage everyone to come out to learn about the organizations and clubs in our community that make it great, and I want to encourage every indi- vidual to get involved in so me way. Take a little bit of time out of your busy life to get involved in something

10062 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 1, 2004 you care about. It'll make a concrete difference in the world around you. I hope Volunteer Fest on April 24, to be held this year on the last day of National Volunteer Week, will become a catalyst for a stronger, more involved com- munity for Coquitlam, Port Coquitlam, Port Moody, Anmore and Belcarra. METHAMPHETAMINE USE L. Mayencourt: There's an enemy that has invaded our streets and our homes in British Columbia.

Last year that enemy killed too many people in our prov- ince, and in the first three months of this year we're on pace to double the number of deaths as a result of this enemy. The enemy I talk about to day has street names like crystal, ice, glass, meth an d shard. It's a drug called methamphetamine. It's cheap, it's toxic, and it's very addictive. It can induce violent and psychotic behav- iour in users, and it can cause lasting brain damage and even death. The United Nations estimates that worldwide the number of people who have used crystal meth in the last year is 34 million.

Combined with its sister drug ecstasy, global abuse exceeds that of heroin and co- caine. In my own city of Vancouver, 71 percent of the street-entrenched youth have used crystal meth, and a shocking number of high school students across this province have experimented with it. We as a government are moving against this en- emy. This government is committed to action, and this government is committed to helping the casualties of this drug in our cities. I'm proud to say that this gov- ernment will be co-hosting a western summit on methamphetamine with a me thamphetamine response committee out of my neighbourhood.

We'll bring to- gether health care workers, social service providers, policy-makers, community organizations and law en- forcement to develop a coll aborative and holistic ap- proach to addressing the use and production of methamphetamine in western Canada. When we merged health se rvices and addiction, we made a conscious choice. We recognized that issues around addiction are medical.

By including social ser- vice providers, community groups and law enforce- ment in this summit, we re cognized that the solutions to the crystal meth problem need to be both short term and some long-term strategies, and that these solutions are for the health of our young people and of our community. Oral Questions GOVERNMENT SPENDING ON HEALTH CARE ADVERTISING J. MacPhail: You can't turn on your TV, open up your mailbox or read a newspaper without being in- undated with an avalanche of charts and graphs de- signed to pick a fight with doctors, with nurses and with health care workers.

Millions of dollars are being spent on these ads. But to date, the government refuses to tell the public how much this is costing the taxpayer. To the Minister of Health. Cast his mind back to his briefing books. Can he remember the

section on adver- tising costs, and can he tell us how much his govern- ment is spending on health care costs? Just how much are these costing taxpayers? Hon. C. Hansen: If you go back to the last year of the NDP government, they had budgeted about $23 million for advertising across government. Our budget is actually down fairly significantly from that. The total cost to all of government, for all ministries, for the ad- vertising that's done through the public affairs bureau is about $19 million. Included in that is all of the costs of the health ads. It does not come out of the health care budget.

It comes out of the public affairs bureau budget. J. MacPhail: So $19 million in advertising. I expect there's a little twisting on his comparison to previous years, but this government likes to pick and choose its facts. That's for sure. How about a chart showing how wait times for surgeries have skyrocketed or one detailing the huge increases in unemployment last month or a paycheque chart showing how paycheques have gone down under the government? Or how about a chart showing how little time the Premier spends in the Legislature? I'd like to see that chart.

Or how about a chart like this one… Interjections. [1415] Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Order. J. MacPhail: …that shows deputy ministers in Brit- ish Columbia are the highest paid in all of Canada? To the Minister of Health — I'll send the chart over to him — maximum payments for deputy ministers, highest in all of Canada, at the same time that he's cutting wages for working people. How about replacing a chart at- tacking nurses with this ch art on deputy ministers' salaries under his government? Hon. C.

Hansen: The good news for British Co- lumbians is that B.C. has led Canada in job creation in the last two years together. If you compare that to when those members were in government, when we saw job declines and jobs leaving British Columbia…. For the first time in years we have seen people coming back to British Columbia because of the opportunities in this province, as compared to that government when people were leaving this province.

You start looking at economic growth in this pr ovince today, where we are not yet number one but we are getting there, and con- trast that to when the NDP were in power, when we went from the number one economic growth province

THURSDAY, APRIL 1, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10063 in Canada to number ten as a result of the leadership of the NDP. Deputy Speaker: Leader of the Opposition with a further supplemental. J. MacPhail: I notice the minister didn't want to ac- tually address the question, but let's see what the unem- ployment rate was in May of 2001: 6.8 percent. What's the unemployment rate now? It's 7.9 percent and about to go up. Seriously, seriously, the chart, the chart… It's so accurate.

Deputy ministers in British Columbia get paid more than anywhere else in all of Canada — more than Ontario, more than Quebec — and the number of deputies that this government pays has skyrocketed since they came into power, but you can't find that any- where in their ads. Nowhere. Absolutely none. The minister says the health care ads are all about getting the facts out. Well, if he were telling the truth, he'd make an honest effort at getting his facts out. The minister won't tell us how much the health care ads cost.

Is he saying that he can't isolate out the cost of the health care ads, or is he simply keeping it a secret be- cause he's embarrassed about putting health care money into ads that simply don't tell the real truth about where their government is putting money? Hon. C. Hansen: There's actually quite a contrast to the advertising that we're doing. We're actually provid- ing factual information to British Columbians about their health care system — unlike the ad I remember where when this member was the Minister of Health in this province, she actually put herself in the ads. You know, talk about self-pro motion.

I can assure the member that there is not one dollar out of the Ministry of Health Services budget that is going into any of the health ads that you have been seeing on TV or in terms of the information that's been in the papers. FUNDING FOR PICASSO CAFE J. Kwan: While the government spends millions on useless partisan advertising, extremely useful pro- grams for street kids and other kids — youth at risk — are being axed. I want to ask the Minister of Human Resources about the closure of Picasso Cafe because of his elimination of $180,000 in government grants — the cost of one deputy minister.

The Picasso Cafe has been an institution in Vancouver's west side for more than 15 years, helping hundreds of troubled young people improve their lives. The cafe had to shut its door, leav- ing these young people outside in the cold. The gov- ernment is heartless — we know that — but these young people are very hopeful that it is the case that the Minister of Human Resources… Interjections. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Order. J. Kwan: …will have a heart.

Will the Minister of Human Resources agree to go back to the table with the Picasso Cafe to work out an arrangement that keeps the cafe open and at-risk youth employed? Interjections. [1420] Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Let's hear the an- swer. Interjections. Deputy Speaker: Leader of the Opposition, would you please come to order. Let's hear the minister. Hon. S. Hagen: The Picasso Cafe themselves have said that they want to get out of the restaurant business and into the job-training bu siness.

The reality is that we're still delivering services to these students in Van- couver, and we deliver these job-training services through MOSAIC, Immigrant Services Society of B.C., Vancouver Eastside Educational Enrichment Society, the YWCA… Interjections. Deputy Speaker: Member, please come to order. Let's hear the answer. Hon. S. Hagen: …the N.V. Food and Service Re- source Group. I can tell you that we spend $6 million a year delivering these services to the people who need these services in Vancouver.

Included in those services are basic life skills, a job search skill, specific skills training, job placement and follow-up supports. We believe that, for anybody, a job is always better than welfare. Deputy Speaker: The member for Vancouver– Mount Pleasant with a supplemental question. J. Kwan: Yes, a job is always better than welfare, and that is what Picasso Cafe was doing before this government cut its grant — a grant of $180,000. That's why they're closing. Vancouver's downtown east side is one of our province's poorest communi ties and harbours many young people facing incredibly difficult challenges.

Already two out of three safe houses for at-risk youth on the downtown east side have been closed. Part of our job here is to ensure that these young people are given the chances and opportunities they need to find success. The Picasso Cafe is all about giving troubled young people with no work experience a chance in life, a chance to develop life skills they otherwise would not have been offered. Again to the Minister of Human Resources: let's put the partisanship aside.

On behalf of these young peo- ple, would he please announce in the House today that he's going to take steps to find a way to keep the Pi- casso Cafe open and running for troubled young peo- ple?

10064 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 1, 2004 Interjections. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Let's hear the an- swer. Hon. S. Hagen: What I am pleased to announce to the House today is that this government has actually spent $300 million on job-trai ning programs over the last three years. This government does recognize that many of the youth participating in that program have specific barriers to employment. That's why we're pro- viding services to these young people through the Vancouver training-for-jobs program, the community assistance program and the bridging employment pro- gram.

This government is committed to performance- based contracts for job training, and the Picasso Cafe is perfectly welcome to bid on any of these requests that come out for future contract opportunities. MINING ACTIVITIES IN PARKS P. Nettleton: I would like to ask the Minister of State for Mining to clarify the Moving Forward 2006 provincial parks development policy proposal being considered by the Premier and caucus. When I first received access to a leaked e-mail document being cir- culated in caucus on Monday, I thought it was an April Fool's joke.

Then I thought it must be a sign that free- dom of expression is finally being allowed in caucus for such harebrained scheme s to be distributed among members. Interjections. P. Nettleton: It seems like I've touched a nerve, Mr. Speaker. Interjections. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Let's hear the ques- tion. P.

Nettleton: A scheme seemingly intended to rip up and sell off portions of our provincial parks, includ- ing Windy Craggy and the world famous Tatshenshini provincial park, for the benefit of the mining industry — this despite the government's new-era commitment to ensure that parks are safe from mining and logging. [1425] Does the Minister of State for Mining personally support the mining of provincial parks? I hope he has the courage to stand up and answer. Hon. R. Neufeld: It's a pleasure to answer this question. Our policy in this government is that there is no mining in parks of British Columbia.

We committed to that during the election under the leadership of Premier Campbell, and we'll continue moving forward with that. But the thing that surprises me is that it took this long for this member to realize that you can come up with ideas in his caucus an d actually talk about them. T h a t ' s t h e A p r i l f o o l ' s j o k e w e s e e h e r e t o d a y . H e j u s t woke up to that thing. SAFETY OF TRANS-CANADA HIGHWAY BETWEEN PRITCHARD AND CHASE K.

Krueger: During the Leader of the Opposition's harangue, I was thinking about Mike Harcourt's prom- ise to four-lane the Trans-Canada Highway from Kam- loops to the Alberta border and thinking how, when she was…. Interjections. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Let's have some order. K. Krueger: Three women from my constituency were killed last summer in a motor vehicle crash in the area of Hoffman's bluff on the Trans-Canada Highway. Those three women died because when that member was Minister of Finance, she failed to put money into keeping Mike Harcourt's promise.

We have deadly dangerous stretches of the Trans-Canada Highway through British Columbia, and seven people died in that area — the area from Pritchard to Chase — last year. That member did not put money…. Interjection. K. Krueger: That member heckles me while I'm talking about women who have died in my constitu- ency because of her negligence. I've been very con- cerned about this for a long time. Interjection. Deputy Speaker: Order, please, member. Leader of the Opposition, please come to order. K. Krueger: I've been working on this issue for years. I know that our government plans to do some- thing about it.

It's an expensive fix. When these people were spending $363 million on fast ferries, when they sunk $300 million into a defunc t pulp mill, when they did all these things, they weren't thinking about the safety of my constituents. Deputy Speaker: Question, member. Let's have a question. K. Krueger: I'd like to know from our Minister of Transportation: what are we going to do about Hoff- man's bluff and this danger ous stretch of the Trans- Canada Highway? Hon. K.

Falcon: I do know that the member for Kamloops–North Thompson and, indeed, the Leader of the Opposition would love me to correct one little piece of information there. Actually, the previous govern-

THURSDAY, APRIL 1, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10065 ment blew almost $500 million on the fast ferries, and I know we wouldn't want to lowball that number. Actually, as the member for Kamloops–North Thompson knows, safety is the number one priority for the Ministry of Transportati on. Shortly after I was for- tunate enough to assume th is position, the member for Kamloops–North Thompson was very expedient in visiting my office and bringing to my attention the real challenge with Hoffman's bluff, and I appreciated that.

I am pleased to let the member know that that par- ticular section, which is about three kilometres of the No. 1 highway, is going to have some improvements undertaken immediately. We will have those im- provements completed by the summer. Those im- provements will include median rumble strips, double- solid centre lines, and increased signing and repaving. That will be some very positive news in terms of reduc- ing crashes, and I think it will also make the road safer for those New Democrats who are trying to rush down to join the Liberal Party. [End of question period.] Interjections.

Deputy Speaker: Let's have order, please. Interjections. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Tabling Documents Hon. S. Bond: In accordance with

section 14 of the Budget Transparency and A ccountability Act, I am pleased to table the Simon Fraser University Surrey Cen- tral City Campus Major Capital Project Plan. [1430] Motions on Notice POWERS OF CROWN CORPORATIONS COMMITTEE Hon. G. Collins: By leave, I move Motion 107 standing in my name in the Votes and Proceedings . It's the appointment motion for the Select Standing Com- mittee on Crown Corporations. [That the Select Standing Committee on Crown Corpora- tions be appointed to review the annual reports and ser- vice plans of British Columbia Crown Corporations.

In addition to the powers previously conferred upon the Select Standing Committee on Crown Corporations, the Committee be empowered: (

a) to appoint of their number, one or more sub- committees and to refer to such subcommittees any of the matters referred to the Committee; (

b) to sit during a period in which the House is ad- journed, during the recess after prorogation until the next following Session and during any sitting of the House; (

c) to adjourn from place to place as may be conven- ient; and (

d) to retain personnel as required to assist the Committee, and shall report to the House as soon as possible or fol- lowing any adjournment, or at the next following Ses- sion, as the case may be; to deposit the original of its re- ports with the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly during a period of adjournment and upon resumption of the sit- tings of the House, the Chair shall present all reports to the Legislative Assembly.] Leave granted. Motion approved. REFERRAL OF REPORTS TO COMMITTEES AND POWERS OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE Hon. G.

Collins: I move, with leave, Motion 108 standing in my name in the Votes and Proceedings. It's a motion that refers the reports of the auditor general to the Public Accounts Committ ee and charges the Public Accounts Committee as well. [1. That the reports of the Auditor General of British Co- lumbia deposited with the Speaker of the Legislative As- sembly during the Fifth session of the Thirty-Seventh parliament be deemed referred to the Select Standing Committee on Public Accounts, with the exception of the report referred to in

section 22 of the Auditor General Act which is referred to the Select Standing Committee on Finance and Government Services, and in addition that the following reports of the Auditor General of British Columbia be referred to the Select Standing Committee on Public Accounts: • Auditor General Report No. 4, 2003/2004 Alterna- tive Payments to Physicians: A Program in Need of Change (November 2003) • Auditor General Report No. 5, 2003/2004 Monitor- ing the Government's Finances (December 2003) • Auditor General Report No. 6, 2003/2004 Audit of the Government's Review of Eligibility for Disability Assistance (February 2004) • First Follow-up Report on Managing Interface Fire Risks (June 2001) • First Follow-up Report on Transportation in Greater Vancouver: A Review of Agreements Be- tween the Province and TransLink, and of TransLink's Governance Structure (August 2001) 2.

That the Select Standing Committee on Public Ac- counts be the committee referred to in sections 2, 6, 7, 10, 13 and 14 of the Auditor General Act. In addition to the powers previously conferred upon the Select Standing Committee on Public Accounts, the Committee be empowered: (

a) to appoint of their number, one or more sub- committees and to refer to such subcommittees any of the matters referred to the Committee; (

b) to sit during a period in which the House is ad- journed, during the recess after prorogation until the next following Session and during any sitting of the House; (

c) to adjourn from place to place as may be conven- ient; and (

d) to retain personnel as required to assist the Committee, and shall report to the House as soon as possible, or fol- lowing any adjournment, or at the next following Ses- sion, as the case may be; to deposit the original of its re-

10066 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 1, 2004 ports with the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly during a period of adjournment and upon resumption of the sit- tings of the House, the Chair shall present all reports to the Legislative Assembly.] Leave granted. Motion approved. POWERS OF HEALTH COMMITTEE Hon. G. Collins: I move, with leave, Motion 109 standing in my name in the Votes and Proceedings .

It is the motion to charge the Select Standing Committee on Health. [That the Select Standing Committee on Health be em- powered to examine, inquire into and make recommen- dations with respect to finding effective strategies to change behaviour and encourage people to adopt life- long health habits that will both improve their health and sustain the health care system. 1.

Conduct consultations and report on recommenda- tions from the Select Standing Committee on Health Re- ports from 2001 and 2002. • Investigate other successful health promotion campaigns in other jurisdictions to analyze their po- tential effectiveness in BC. • Undertake discussions on how to promote "healthy lifestyles" including the appropriate use of incentives and disincentives to help influence public behaviour. 2. Consider any potential financial savings to the Health Care system as a result of improved fitness of the general population and children and youth in particular.

In addition to the powers previously conferred upon the Select Standing Committee on Health, the Committee shall be empowered: (

a) to appoint of their number, one or more sub- committees and to refer such subcommittees any of the matters referred to the Committee; (

b) to sit during a period in which the House is ad- journed and during any sitting of the House; (

c) to adjourn from place to place as may be conven- ient; and (

d) to retain such personnel as required to assist the Committee, and shall report to the House no later than November 25, 2004 to deposit the original of its reports with the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly during a period of adjournment and upon resumption of the sittings of the House, the Chair shall present all reports to the Legislative Assem- bly.] Leave granted. Motion approved. POWERS OF FINANCE AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES COMMITTEE Hon. G. Collins: I move Motion 110, by leave, standing in my name in the Votes and Proceedings .

It is the motion to appoint the Select Standing Committee on Finance and Government Services. [That the Select Standing Committee on Finance and Government Services be empowered: 1. To examine, inquire into and make recommendations with respect to the pre-budget consultation report pre- pared by the Minister of Finance in accordance with sec- tion 2 of the Budget Transparency and Accountability Act and, in particular, to: (

a) Conduct public consultations across British Co- lumbia on proposals and recommendations regard- ing the provincial budget and fiscal policy for the coming fiscal year by any means the committee con- siders appropriate, including but not limited to pub- lic meetings, telephone and electronic means; (

b) Prepare a report no later than November 15, 2004 on the results of those consultations; and 2. (

a) To consider and make recommendations on the an- nual reports, rolling three-year service plans and budgets of the following statutory officers: • Auditor General • Chief Electoral Officer • Conflict of Interest Commissioner • Information and Privacy Commissioner • Ombudsman • Police Complaint Commissioner; and, (

b) To examine, inquire into and make recommendations with respect to other matters brought to the Committee's attention by any of the Officers listed in 2(

a) above. (

c) That the Select Standing Committee on Finance and Government Services be the committee referred to in sec- tions 19, 20, 21 and 23 of the Auditor General Act and that the performance report in

section 22 of the Auditor General Act be referred to the committee. In addition to the powers previously conferred upon the Select Standing Committee on Finance and Government Services, the committee shall be empowered: (

a) to appoint of their number one or more subcom- mittees and refer to such subcommittees any of the matters referred to the committee; (

b) to sit during a period in which the House is ad- journed and during any sitting of the House; (

c) to adjourn from place to place as may be conven- ient; and (

d) to retain personnel as required to assist the com- mittee, and shall report to the House as soon as possible, or fol- lowing any adjournment or at the next following session, as the case may be, to deposit the original of its reports with the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly during a pe- riod of adjournment and upon resumption of the sittings of the House, the Chair shall present all reports to the Legislative Assembly.] Leave granted. Motion approved. POWERS OF EDUCATION COMMITTEE Hon. G. Collins: By leave, I move Motion 111 standing in my name in the Votes and Proceedings.

It's a motion to charge the Select Standing Committee on Education. [That the Select Standing Committee on Education be empowered to examine, inquire into and make recom- mendations on the following matters: 1. (

a) To follow up on the 2002 recommendations of A Future for Learners: A Vision for the Renewal of Educa- tion in British Columbia; and, in particular;

THURSDAY, APRIL 1, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10067 (

b) Based on the 2002 recommendation for a process for public post-secondary institutions to report back to the Select Standing Committee on Education on the en- hanced tuition revenues to benefit students, the Commit- tee is hereby empowered to request and receive reports on this matter from public post-secondary institutions. 2. The Committee may consider any other matters re- ferred to the Committee by the Minister of Education and the Minister of Advanced Education. 3. The Committee shall prepare a report no later than November 25, 2004 on the results of this review.

In addi- tion to the powers previously conferred upon the Select Standing Committee on Education, the Committee shall be empowered: (

a) to appoint of their number, one or more sub- committees and to refer such subcommittees any of the matters referred to the Committee; (

b) to sit during a period in which the House is ad- journed and during any sitting of the House; (

c) to adjourn from place to place as may be conven- ient; and (

d) to retain such personnel as required to assist the Committee, and shall report to the House as soon as possible, or fol- lowing any adjournment or at the next following Session, as the case may be; to deposit the original of its reports with the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly during a pe- riod of adjournment and upon resumption of the sittings of the House, the Chair shall present all reports to the Legislative Assembly.] Leave granted. Motion approved. Orders of the Day Hon. G. Collins: I call second reading of Bill 16. As well, I call Committee A.

For the information of mem- bers, they'll be continuing the debate on the Ministry of Education. Second Reading of Bills WATER, LAND AND AIR PROTECTION STATUTES AMENDMENT ACT, 2004 Hon. B. Barisoff: The amendments contained in this bill continue to modernize the province's environ- mental management. They improve the efficiency and effectiveness of a number of ministry functions. These changes have been developed on the advice from so- licitors and the Attorney General, who have been working with my staff in the ministry on general re- view of the legislation.

The review of this has been go- ing on for the last three years, and a number of major legislative changes have come out of that review. Some of those changes we re enacted last year, and the process of change is cont inuing this year. Given the size and scope of changes ma de last year when we re- placed the 20-year-old Waste Management Act with the Environmental Management Act, some fine-tuning be- fore the act is brought into force should be expected.

The amendments I am introducing today focus on authori- ties under five statutes: the Environmental Management Act, the Integrated Pest Management Act, the Ecological Reserve Act, the Park Act and the Wildlife Act. The Environmental Management Act and the Inte- grated Pest Management Act were introduced and en- acted last year. These changes represent a continuation of the development and fine-tuning of these new stat- utes in order to ensure a smooth transition when they are brought into force.

Changes to the Park Act, Eco- logical Reserve Act and Wildlife Act will harmonize certain compliance authoritie s in those acts with the new features contained in the Environmental Man- agement Act and the Integrated Pest Management Act. In addition, the proposed amendments will make a number of other changes to bring these older statutes up to date and to provide clear language and address questions of

interpretation. Changes to the Environ- mental Management Act will clarify conservation offi- cers' authority to provide compliance and enforcement services under various government statutes with ap- proval of the Solicitor Gene ral through the Lieutenant- Governor-in-Council.

This provides much greater flexibility to the con- servation officers as circumstances change over time, amends the definition of the term "conservation officer" in the act to ensure that special auxiliary officers do not unintentionally receive the general powers of conserva- tion officers, and clarifies the circumstances under which search warrants may be issued.

These changes will reduce the likelihood of constitutional challenges. [1435] Changes to both the Environmental Management Act and the Integrated Pest Management Act will limit the application of provisions of the Offence Act to in- stances where property is seiz ed as evidence as part of an investigation of possible or alleged offence. The Of- fence Act requires that the items seized by peace offi- cers be brought to the attention of a judge. However, this judicial reporting requirement was never intended to apply to the taking of samples for regulatory inspec- tion and monitoring purposes.

The amendment will ensure that the Offence Act reporting procedures will no t apply to routine taking of samples for inspection purposes. This will greatly relieve the administrative burden that would, without amendment, be created by the Environmental Man- agement Act when it's brought into force. Changes to the Wildlife Act will revise the defini- tion of "resident" in the ac t to clarify that to qualify under this definition, persons must have lived in the province for a certain period of the year leading up to the date in which the application is made. They will clarify that

section 75, "Accidental killing of wildlife," is intended only as a reporting requirement and does not in itself authorize the killing or wounding of wildlife. Any accidental kill such as an animal crossing a high- way must be reported to a constable, conservation offi- cer or regional office. Finally, the following changes will apply to the Environmental Management Act, the Integrated Pest Management Act, the Wildli fe Act and the Ecological

10068 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 1, 2004 Reserve Act: delete redundant instances of the phrase "and the regulations" occurri ng after the phrase "under this act" to avoid any unintended judicial

interpretation of the redundant phrase; harmonize the limitation pe- riods for laying charges un der the acts by amending the relevant provisions to provide for a limitation pe- riod of three years from the time of the offence or 18 months from the time the alleged offence comes to the minister's attention. This will provide certainty regard- ing the time limits available to initiate prosecutions and will reflect consistent policy. This province needs clear and consistent environ- mental legislation.

These changes are important steps that improve the legislation of the Ministry of Water, Land and Air Protection — make it more responsive. They promote greater efficiency and provide improved clarity. These changes ensure consistent stewardship of our natural resources for all British Columbians. Mr. Speaker, I move second reading. Motion approved. Hon. B. Barisoff: I move that the bill be referred to a Committee of the Whole House to be considered at the next sitting of the House after today.

Bill 16, Water, Land and Air Protection Statutes Amendment Act, 2004, read a second time and referred to a Committee of the Whole House for consideration at the next sitting of the House after today. Hon. G. Plant: I call second reading of Bill 18. MISCELLANEOUS STATUTES AMENDMENT ACT, 2004 Hon. G. Plant: I move that the bill be now read a second time. This is a miscellaneous statutes amendment act, and as is the usual practice in the case of omnibus legislation, I will provide an overview of the changes in the bill.

I expect that if there is any significant debate about those changes, we can have that debate at the committee stage when we proceed through the bill on a section-by-

section basis. Let me provide an overview of what this bill will do. Rather than do it numerically, we'll do it to the extent possible by subject matter or by category. First, in order to facilitate the coming into force of the new Business Corporations Act, this bill makes minor housekeeping changes to that Business Corpora- tions Act, the College and Institute Act, the Private Managed Forest Land Act, the Royal Roads University Act and the University Act. These are primarily cross- referencing changes in keeping with the fact that the name of the old Company Act is being changed to the Business Corporations Act. Second, a minor

section reference error in the Community Care and Assisted Living Act is corrected. [1440] Third, consequential to the repeal of the Commu- nity Financial Services Act — the act which established the Four Corners Community Savings institution in the downtown east side of Vancouver — amendments are proposed here to the Corporation Capital Tax Act; the Finance and Corporate Relations Statutes Amendment Act, 1999; the Financial Information Act; the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act; the Inter- pretation Act; and the Miscellaneous Statutes Amend- ment Act (No. 2), 1999.

Let me say something about the repeal of the Community Financial Services Act. The Four Corners savings institution, sometimes called Four Corners Bank, was established in 1996 to provide banking ser- vices to the residents of the downtown east side of Vancouver. Unfortunately, although the government has given Four Corners every opportunity to succeed, including investing $11.6 million in it to date, the insti- tution continues to incur ongoing losses. The bank was supposed to become self-sustaining after five years. It's now year seven, and that still hasn't happened.

Indeed, with Four Corners' assets sinking close to the $5 million minimum required to operate a financial institution in the province, the bank is at risk of being shut down by the Financial Institutions Commission. It's our government's commitment to use tax dol- lars efficiently, productively and effectively. From that perspective, no government could ask — and this gov- ernment will not ask — the taxpayers of British Co- lumbia to support an enterprise which, sadly but un- fortunately, is realistically unsustainable. Accordingly, we are left with no viable alternative but to close the bank.

However, that is not the end of the road for those who have depended on the bank's services. The gov- ernment will continue to support those who are work- ing to improve living conditions in the downtown east side of Vancouver. Four Corners clients have been in- formed of the closure, and bank staff have been assist- ing in transferring accounts and helping people make other banking arrangements. Letters were sent to bank patrons. Signs were posted throughout the downtown east side, and ads were placed in Vancouver-area newspapers.

Ministry of Human Resources staff have worked to ensure that clients are aware of the range of options available to them. We are especially pleased that VanCity Savings is collaborating with the Portland Hotel Society, a local community service society, to operate a branch of VanCity in the downtown east side. This government has been assisting VanCity Savings in every way pos- sible in order to ensure a smooth transition from Four Corners to the new Pigeon Park Savings branch.

I am confident that every effort is and has been made, and will continue to be made, to minimize the impact of the bank's closure on its clients and on the community it has tried to serve. As I've indicated, however, the insti- tution is unsustainable, and because of that, govern- ment has no choice but to close it. Bill 18 also makes a change to the Crown Proceed- ing Act, transferring the resp onsibility to report to the Legislature on payments made under that act to the Attorney General from the Mi nistry of Finance. This

THURSDAY, APRIL 1, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10069 legislative change will better reflect the existing minis- terial responsibility for expenditures under the Crown Proceeding Act. Bill 18 corrects minor drafting errors in the Health Professions Amendment Act, 2003,

an act which en- acted significant changes to the Health Professions Act in response to the recommendations of the former Health Professions Council. Next, Bill 18 amends the Hydro and Power Author- ity Act to increase B.C. Hydro's business flexibility and to eliminate duplication and overlap. These changes will allow the corporation to become more efficient and cost-effective, and will also assist the corporation and government to implement a provincial energy plan by supporting low-cost electricity. Bill 18 also makes three distinct additional changes to the

Interpretation Act, which is the provincial statute that provides guidance for interpreting other provin- cial statutes. These changes include the addition of a new provision to clarify what is to happen when a bill is set to come into force on a date that is earlier than the date on which that bill receives royal assent. [1445] The changes in the Interp retation Act also change the definition of "newspaper ," which is a longstanding definition found in the Interp retation Act that is then relied upon by other statutes where there are statutory obligations to publish notice of pending transactions or activities.

The operation of that definition and the wording of the definition, as it has existed for many years, have limited the defi nition of "newspaper" to publications that had subscription lists or were paid for; that is, where you had to buy the paper. The newspaper business has changed a lot over the past number of years in British Columbia, and the re- sult is that across the prov ince there are many, many very valuable community news papers that are, to all intents and purposes, distribu ted free of charge. That's certainly true in my community of Richmond.

We have two very good newspapers: the Richmond News and the Richmond Review. They're both newspapers that land on my doorstep and on the doorsteps of many people in Richmond at least…. I think it's twice a week for both papers. They've done so for many years. I don't pay to receive them, but they are very important tools for communication in my community. They are important vehicles for learning about what's going on in the community and a very valuable way to reach the citi- zens of my community.

What we're proposing here in the change that is part of this bill is to change the definition of newspaper so that it no longer excludes these community papers. That will allow people who have to publish notices of things in newspapers a wider range of choice in where they are to publish and, in some communities, will ensure that the notice will actually be published di- rectly in the community wh ere notice needs to be given.

I've already referred to the change in the Interpreta- tion Act which eliminates the reference to Four Corners from the definition of "savings institution." The Jury Act has long co ntained disqualification provisions — provisions that limit the ability of a very small group of citizens in the province to serve on ju- ries. Usually we're talking about people who have law or administration of justice responsibilities. What we're doing in this bill is amending the Jury Act so that em- ployees of the federal Department of Justice are dis- qualified from eligibility to sit on a jury.

We're also clarifying that with respect to jury eligibility, employ- ees of youth custody centres will also be ineligible. And I think there is a regulati on-making power being intro- duced to ensure that as the federal government or this government reorganize themselves from time to time, we have the ability to, by re gulation, make the changes necessary to ensure that justice system personnel who ought not to be members of juries because of their jobs and their work are not eligible for jury service. Bill 18 makes a minor housekeeping change to the Land Title Act by removing a reference in a particular

section to the Attorney General and replacing it with a reference to the word "minister." The result of this change is that the

section will be re ad to mean the minister re- sponsible for the section, and at this point that means the Minister of Sustainable Resource Management. In addition, Bill 18 makes minor changes to the Social Workers Act. These changes focus on the Board of Registration for Social Workers and ensure that that board does not unintentionally lose jurisdiction due to vacancies on the board. It also extends the appointment of board members from one year to maximum three- year terms. Bill 18 also amends the Tobacco Sales Act so that it fits better with recent amendments made to the To- bacco Tax Act.

The Tobacco Sales Act's definition of the word "authorization" is altered to reflect the use of that term in the Tobacco Tax Act. Bill 18 makes changes to the Trinity Western Uni- versity Act regarding the authority and mandate of Trinity Western University in Langley. This amend- ment is intended to streamline the degree program review process for Trinity Western's academic, bacca- laureate and graduate degr ees.

This change ensures consistency with the govern ment's recently enacted Degree Authorization Act and helps government meet its commitment to a more efficient and integrated post- secondary education system. [1450] The Workers Compensation Act is also changed by Bill 18, in three distinct ways. First, given the high vol- ume of cases handled by the review division, the chief review officer is given the po wer to delegate her duties to staff with the appropriate limitations and conditions.

Second, a past drafting oversight will be corrected in that workers and employer s in the commercial fish- ing industry will be given access to the new workers compensation appeal system, including the Workers Compensation Appeal Tribunal, on the same basis as other workers and employers in British Columbia have access to that system. Third, the bill removes an unwieldy requirement that the Workers Compensati on Appeal Tribunal must

10070 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 1, 2004 not retain a health professional to provide independent assistance or advice if that person has treated or is treating a member of the wo rker's family. Instead, the tribunal will be required to meet the standards set by another provision, which is that a health professional not be used in circumstances that could result in a rea- sonable apprehension of bias.

That general principle is sufficient to ensure that the system has integrity and that health professionals are not, in effect, arbitrarily restricted from providing assistance or advice in cases where that assistance or advice may be helpful. Finally, Bill 18 validates a bylaw that was enacted and ratified by the Association of Professional Engi- neers and Geoscientists back in 1992, before the provi- sion of the Engineers and Ge oscientists Act authorized that bylaw to be made. Motion approved. Hon. G.

Plant: I move that the bill be referred to a Committee of the Whole House to be considered at the next sitting of the House after today. Bill 18, Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment Act, 2004, read a second time and referred to a Committee of the Whole House for consideration at the next sitting of the House after today. Hon. C. Hansen: I call estimates debate. For the information of members, we'll be debating the esti- mates of the Ministry of Human Resources. Committee of Supply The House in Committee of Supply B; J. Weisbeck in the chair. The committee met at 2:55 p.m.

ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF HUMAN RESOURCES (continued) On vote 27: ministry operations, $1,301,425,000 (continued). J. MacPhail: Thanks to the minister for giving me the chronology of time limits materials posted on the ministry Internet site. We ended off in discussions around the manual amendmen t, letter No. 16, and the e-mail of February 10 on case management process. I was asking the link between the two. Hon. S.

Hagen: The question posed by the Leader of the Opposition regarding whether employment and as- sistance workers have tool s/information/instruc-tions available to them regarding application of time limits policy. The member referred to an e-mail ADM message "case management process" from ADM Alison Meredith to all regional services division staff. The e-mail refers to details of the interview and related case management processes and can be found in a practice advisory posted on the field guide; URL address — Web link — is listed.

The member infers that this URL is not available, and thus staff do not have the information required to do their jobs. The URL links to an internal ministry intranet site with access limited to MHR employees. The link is live and available to staff with correct access authorization, which includes MHR field staff. The field guide is an internal tool with access to all related documentation, template letters for staff to use and links to the legislation, regulation and policy manual. The electronic field guide provides an excellent tool for staff to use to ensure information is current and acces- sible.

The newly introduced electronic on-line resource guide will provide even more state-of-the-art electronic information tools for employees. "The practice advisory advised" — first of all, originally dated February 10 and updated February 27 of this year — "clarification that ongoing eligibility for assistance is de- pendent upon compliance with the terms and conditions of the employment plan. The employment plan and its effec- tive management are critical to ensuring clients have sup- ports needed to move towards sustainable employment.

"Expectation that intensified case management be undertaken with clients reaching the 24-month time limit to ensure that they have updated employment plans and that their personal circumstances are reviewed to deter- mine why they have not found employment…. "Clarifies that clients in compliance with the employ- ment plan will not have the time limit policy imposed….

"Describes procedures for ensuring that clients are contacted by telephone and letter to set up interview ap- pointments to assess employability, review compliance with their employment plans, apply sanctions where ap- propriate and make referrals to job placement service providers as required….

"Expectations clearly stated that all clients are to be contacted and interviewed by the last working day of the month and instructions about follow-up…." "Instructions about reviewing clients' employability and consideration whether client is, in fact, temporarily excused from looking for work or should be considered to be a person with persistent multiple barriers…." The question: is practice advisory still being ap- plied in the field? The answer is yes. Standards require that employment plans for clients at 24-month eligibil- ity time count are reviewed every 30 days. [K. Stewart in the chair.] J.

MacPhail: Good. Thanks. Th e policy manual amendment letter No. 16, I want to…. Perhaps the min- ister needs to isolate out portions of his answer for this. It said that the purpose is to introduce important changes to the B.C. employment and assistance pro- gram effective February 6, 2004. It concerns employ- ment obligations, and it states that changes have been made to three sections of the manual. Can the minister outline what those three sections are and the nature of the changes? [1500] Hon. S. Hagen: The first one is

part 6,

section 1, the application and employment plan. In order to continue

THURSDAY, APRIL 1, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10071 receiving assistance, clients who are expected to work must also continue to meet the employment-related obligations as set out in

section 13 of the Employment and Assistance Act,

section 12 of the EAPWD Act. Secondly, under

part 6,

section 5(a), clients must be advised of the conditions of the employment plan and that complying with the provisions of the employment plan is a condition of eligibility. Clients must also be advised of their employment-related obligations as set out in the EA Act,

section 13, and the EAPWD Act,

section 12. Refer to

part 7,

section 7, eligibility em- ployment. Thirdly,

part 7,

section 6, eligibility and sanctions. Sanctions for employment-related obligations — sec- tions 9 and 13 of the EA Act and sections 9 and 12 of the EAPWD Act. Clients with employment-related obligations are required to fulfil both the requirements set out in

section 9, EP;

section 13, employment-related obligations, of the EA Act; and sections 9 and 12 of the Employment and Assistance for Persons with Disabili- ties Act. A client can be non-compliant due to their failure to meet employment-related obligations — for example, fails to demonstrat e reasonable work search or non-compliant due to their failure to comply with the conditions of their empl oyment plan; for example, must attend school in the evening and does not fulfil the employment-related obligations; for example, fails to demonstrate reasonable work search.

Then the sanc- tions for both sections 9 and 13 apply concurrently. Note that there may be legitimate situations in which the conditions of the EP prevent the client from meeting the conditions of

section 13 of the EA Act. For example, the client is atte nding a full-time, short-term course leaving very little time to search for employ- ment. The wording of

section 9, "subject to the conditions of an employment plan," means that

section 9 takes precedence when the two are in conflict. Thus, if meet- ing the conditions of an EP causes non-compliance with

section 13, sanctions should not be applied. Refer to EP standards, sections D(1)(

a) and D(2)(a). If the client is declared ineligible under both sec- tions 9 and 13 and appeals the decision, two separate requests for reconsideration forms, HR100s, are re- quired. Applying sanctions. Sanc tions are applied from the date non-compliance is determined and continue until the sanction time has elapsed. For example, if a client reapplies for assistance one week after they are deter- mined ineligible under

section 13, they continue to be ineligible until the one-month sanction period has elapsed. However, if the client reapplied for assistance three-months after they were determined ineligible, then the sanction for

section 13 would not apply as the one-month sanction period had already elapsed. J. MacPhail: Is there any way the minister can kind of boil that down into plain English? It's not a criticism. I just…. Interjection. J. MacPhail: No, it's a plea. Hon. S. Hagen: It might be easier to translate it into Norwegian. This is public information. I'm pleased to share it with you. I don't know how I can boil this down into plain English. It is very bureaucratese, as you can see. J. MacPhail: L e t m e a p p r o a c h i t t h i s w a y .

I f o n e takes away the sanction aspect of it — I assume the sanction is that you no longer can collect welfare — what else has changed? Those seem to be pretty famil- iar — to me anyway, but maybe I'm wrong — require- ments that have been in existence for quite a while. [1505] Hon. S. Hagen: Let me try this. This describes em- ployment plan versus employment obligations. This may help. If you look at re quirements first, under the employment plan…. When required, all clients with employment-related obligations are required to comply with the condition of their employment plan.

The em- ployment-related obligations, then, under that are: all clients with employment-related obligations are re- quired to (

a) accept suitable employment, (

b) not vol- untarily leave employment without just cause, (

c) not be dismissed from employment for just cause or (

d) demonstrate reasonable efforts to search for employ- ment. Under the sanctions part of it, under the employ- ment plan part again…. Non-compliance for failure to meet conditions of an employment plan results in ineligibility for assistance for the entire family unit. Under the employment-related obligations part of that, under sanctions…. Non-compliance for failure to meet employment-related obligations (

a) results in ineligibility for income assistance, disability assis- tance or hardship assistance for a specific time period; or (

b) results in rate reductions dependent on family composition. J. MacPhail: What kind of family unit would be subject to the two-year time limit, given the 25 exemp- tions? Hon. S. Hagen: An employable family unit. J. MacPhail: So that would mean a couple. Are there any kids that would be affected by this? I'm curi- ous. The minister just read that if one person of the family unit falls out or has sanctions laid against him or her, then the entire family unit is ineligible. What if any children could be involved in that situation? Hon. S.

Hagen: As long as one in the family unit is compliant, a couple would not be affected by time lim- its, and that includes a couple with children as well. J. MacPhail: The manual amendment states, as I understand it, that the changes relate to the importance of monitoring. Can the mini ster explain how monitor-

10072 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 1, 2004 ing takes place now on these matters in comparison to how it would have been carried out before? What are the changes? Introductions by Members The Chair: At this time I would like to just take leave of the chair to make an announcement. Present with us in the gallery is a group from Garibaldi high school, which is the school in the riding next to me, from the member for Maple Ridge–Mission. It's a school my daughter graduated from two years ago. I would just like to introduce them.

There are 39 stu- dents from Garibaldi's grade 9 and 10 class there, also accompanied by Ms. Gibeault, Mr. Hausknecht, Ms. Williams, Mr. Bikic and Mr. Zuchetto. Would the House make them welcome. [1510] Debate Continued Hon. S. Hagen: The employment plan is the new part under BCEA, or B.C. employment and assistance. It depends on the actions identified in the plan. Whether it is reviewed once a month or once every two months, it depends on the work done between our front-line worker and the client for reviewing and completing the plan. J. MacPhail: Is that all new? Hon. S. Hagen: Yes. J.

MacPhail: What's the change in caseload, then, for financial assistance workers to carry out this new workload? Hon. S. Hagen: This can be carried out because the caseload of employable clients is on the decline and has declined by 70 percent. J. MacPhail: No, I'm asking what the caseload is per FAW who has to carry out what the minister de- scribes as new work. Hon. S. Hagen: I ' m i n f o r m e d t h a t w e d o n ' t h a v e that broken down. It depends on which office it is, and I guess there are a lot of variables. We don't have that information. J.

MacPhail: Is it that the minister just doesn't have it here or that the ministry doesn't keep track of it? They used to. It was a major component of deciding the work of an FAW. Hon. S. Hagen: I'm told that we don't track that or keep track of that any longer. J. MacPhail: Well, then I expect that the minister was accusing me of sort of taking the word of one FAW on the radio this morning and was saying that I was out of order for taking that FAW's word that the pres- sure was on.

How can the minister possibly know whether front-line workers can carry out in a proper monitoring fashion these — as the minister has de- scribed — new requirements if there is no monitoring of the workload of FAWs? Hon. S. Hagen: Regional executive directors moni- tor and allocate the cases to the front-line workers in each of the PWD offices. Depending on the office type, the regional executive directors are responsible for that and monitor it. J. MacPhail: What's the range of caseloads per FAW? What's the smallest caseload level, and what's the highest? Hon. S.

Hagen: We don't have that information, but we can get it for the Leader of the Opposition. [1515] J. MacPhail: I'm really trying to get at what all of these changes are meaning fo r people on the front line and clients as well. This is why I'm exploring all of this. If the government is sincere about moving people from welfare to work, then these employment plans which the minister seems to claim are new…. I think the only aspect of this that's new is the penalty associated with it being harsher than it was before. People did get re- moved from welfare if they weren't looking for work or had an employment plan.

I'm just trying to figure out how this is going to work so that it's effective, at least toward the government's goals. Let me ask some specific questions on how it will work on an individual basis. At the level of an individ- ual financial assistance client, what must the client demonstrate in an employment plan in order to prove her eligibility for continued assistance? What are the details? Hon. S. Hagen: The ministry has had a 70 percent decline in clients in the expected work category and an overall caseload decline of 35 percent.

This has obvi- ously created more time for the front-line workers to work with clients. J. MacPhail: Well, that's only true if there is the same number of FAWs. That's why I'm asking the question. The FAWs have been laid off; offices have been closed. That's all I'm asking, but my question ac- tually had moved on. Shall I repeat my question? I said: at the level of an individual financial assistance client, what must the client demonstrate in an employment plan in order to prove his or her eligibility for continued assistance? What does an employment plan look like? Hon. S.

Hagen: I will read into the record again, for the benefit of the member, key messages of the part on employment plans:

THURSDAY, APRIL 1, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10073 "A mandatory employment plan is designed to help increase the rate of leaving and to reduce the rate of cycling back on to income assistance. The employment plan fo- cuses the effort of the ministry and the client on finding sustainable employment. Clients who are compliant with their employment plan, who are actively looking for work, will not be subject to time limits' consequences. Most peo- ple don't want to be on welfare" — as I've said many times — "but they may need assistance in finding a job.

We want to make sure that such clients are first in line for the jobs." This is important. "Ministry staff develop the employment plan with the client using the employability screen and the client employability profile. These have been specifically de- veloped to assist with employment planning. Staff work together with each client on an employment plan that will provide specific direction and suggestions to lead to employment and independence. Plans may include re- ferral to independent work-search, job placement or training-for-jobs programs as well as non-ministry pro- grams and services.

Clients not required to have an em- ployment plan can access services by signing a voluntary participation plan, which outlines steps to help the client prepare for and participate in future employment." [1520] Here's what a worker has said: "As an EAW, I completed many employment plans and find this a valuable tool. I also find this provides cli- ents with clear goals that they would achieve either long- or short-term. Not only does the employment plan help the clients who are employable — and those who have b a r r i e r s h a v e p r o v i d e d m e w i t h p o s i t i v e f e e d b a c k … .

Some of the comments I recall are: 'This plan helped them organize what they wanted to do and helped them deal with their barriers. The conditions in their plan were simple ones but ones that were put together by them- selves with help from myself.' "'I referred them to local programs and provided in- formation to them, and this was outlined in their plan. This enabled the client to achieve some of their goals.

For example, one of my clients came in and thanked me for helping them complete the employment plan and found it helped her gain some control of her situation.' "'Some of my clients have put their copy of the em- ployment plan on their refrigerator as a motivating tool so that they knew where they were going or what they were going to be doing that day.' "'Several clients have started working due to the conditions of their employment plan, and as each client has unique circumstances, their employment plan is tai- lored to their needs.'" This is an e-mail received from an EA worker. J.

MacPhail: What's the date of the e-mail? Hon. S. Hagen: Today's date. J. MacPhail: Then it's retroactive. I'm trying to figure out what's changed as a result of this exemption being put in place. My experience is that these employment plans have been required all along. Is that not correct? Hon. S. Hagen: Yes, that's correct. J. MacPhail: That's what I'm getting at. What's changed here with these new rules? Is it just the sanc- tion that has changed? All those issues that the minister read into the record have been in place for years — constantly evolving, but employment plan require- ments in place for years.

There was also a requirement for an employment plan, if one was employable, or else you didn't get welfare. You got cut off welfare. I'm trying to figure out what's changed here. Is it the sanction that has changed? Hon. S. Hagen: Under B.C. Benefits there was no employment plan. The employment plan in place now is a service screening tool and is an employability pro- file that assesses the client's ability to work. J. MacPhail: We actually have a couple of FAWs monitoring the debate, so we'll see what they reply to that.

Every single one of the re quirements that the minis- ter read into the record was in place when I was Minis- ter of Social Services, so I'm not quite sure what the minister's talking about — that the employment plans weren't required. Maybe they had a different name, but we had people dedicated to this. It's not like the experts aren't watching. Let me ask this, then. What are the penalties — the new penalties and sanctions — n o w , a s o f t h i s m o r n - ing? How has that changed? Hon. S. Hagen: I'm told that when the member opposite was the minister, there were no employment plans in existence.

The other tool that is being used is the service screening tool I described before. [1525] J. MacPhail: I just find that unbelievable. I really find it unbelievable that the bureaucracy is alleging that. I really do, and I take offence to it, quite frankly. The front-line workers will tell you differently, and they're monitoring this. In fact, we actually had finan- cial assistance workers dedicated as consultants to de- velop employment plans for clients. There was a spe- cific category of them, so I don't know how…. I don't have any idea what the minister is alleging there.

Let's go to the penalties and sanctions, then. How has that changed under this government? Hon. S. Hagen: I'm told that when the member opposite was the minister, there was nothing formal with regard to an employment plan, that not every client was referred to a training consultant. That has changed. Now every client has a file, and every client is referred to a training consultant. J. MacPhail: How many training consultants are there, and what's their caseload? Hon. S. Hagen: Every worker works with clients on employment plans. We're getting the exact number, but it is approximately 1,200 workers. J.

MacPhail: This is my third time asking this ques- tion. How have the penalties and sanctions changed?

10074 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 1, 2004 Hon. S. Hagen: One of the changes is that there is a stronger emphasis on seeking work. We've asked to have the way it was done when the member across f r o m m e w a s t h e m i n i s t e r c o m p a r e d t o h o w w e d o i t now, and we'll provide that in writing. [1530] J. MacPhail: I am asking about penalties and sanc- tions. I understand that this is difficult, because it's a highly technical area, but th e February 6, 2004, manual amendment makes references to penalties and sanc- tions. What does it say about penalties and sanctions?

Are those new penalties and sanctions, and if so, how are they new? Hon. S. Hagen: There were no new sanctions intro- duced on February 6, if that 's the question you're ask- ing. The new exemption, th e twenty-fifth exemption, has the effect of extending people past their time limit as long as they are seekin g work. The sanction is not applied in these cases. J. MacPhail: Is that what the amendment to the manual made on February 6 says? It makes reference to sanctions and penalties. Is the reference that the ex- emption precludes people from sanctions and penal- ties? Hon. S. Hagen: Yes. J.

MacPhail: The minister refers to EAWs. Is that the old FAW? Hon. S. Hagen: Apparently, it is. J. MacPhail: Are EAWs expected to meet any kind of quota or target? Hon. S. Hagen: No, they don't have quotas or tar- gets. J. MacPhail: How does caseload reduction get monitored? How does one know that one is meeting the target for this year's budget cut of almost $80 mil- lion? Does it just happen? Hon. S. Hagen: My staff at headquarters monitor the numbers on a monthly basis through the adminis- trative data provided by the management information system. We then look at it on a regional basis, on a monthly basis.

I just want to remind the member opposite that the intent of time limits is not a punitive thing. What we're doing is trying to encourage people to get into a job, to get into work. The principles that guide time limits are the principles of reasonableness, fairness and common sense. J. MacPhail: What other jurisdiction in Canada has time limits for welfare? Hon. S. Hagen: British Columbia is a leader in this field. [1535] J. MacPhail: British Columbia is the only one. There is a good reason for that, and it is because Canadians actually believe in a social safety net and payment of last resort.

How many people are expected to be excluded from the two-year rule as a result of the 25 exemp- tions? Hon. S. Hagen: We don't know the exact number at this time, but the projection s are that the people who will be sanctioned or removed from welfare over the period of the next year, starting in late April, would be…. Our estimate is 339 people affected. I'm hoping the number will be lower, because I think what's hap- pened, even in the last two months, is that this has spurred people into getting into the workforce. J.

MacPhail: Well, we have no idea whether they're getting into the workforce or not, and the minister's own exit surveys demonstrate that. We'll get into caseload questions in a minute. The minister said there is no incentive or target. Does anyone in his ministry at any level get perform- ance bonuses? Hon. S. Hagen: The deputy minister in my ministry receives a performance bonus. J. MacPhail: Upon what basis is a performance bonus awarded to the Deputy Minister of Human Re- sources? Hon. S. Hagen: There is no target in the deputy minister's plan for caseload reduction.

There are a number of items, though, including the ministry achieving its allocated budget. J. MacPhail: Yes. I'm not picking any aspect of bo- nus for the deputy minister , but the budget reduction is about caseload reduction. There's no other way of achieving the budget reduction — or is there? Hon. S. Hagen: Yes, the reason our budget is com- i n g d o w n i s t h a t w e h a v e f e w e r p e o p l e o n o u r caseload. [1540] J. MacPhail: Well, that's not true yet. That's not true. The $79 million is a cut fo r this coming year. Let's look at some of the information for the caseload.

Can the minister tell me what the caseload for social assis- tance for the province is right now? The most recent figures I have are for February, which is fine. Hon. S. Hagen: The latest numbers we have that are posted are January '04. The total caseload, January '04, is 114,674.

THURSDAY, APRIL 1, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10075 L. Mayencourt: I would like to get back to some earlier questions regarding disability. In an earlier question the minister indi cated there were roughly 9,000 new applicants or new recipients of disability benefits in British Columbia. I'm wondering how many individuals applied for disability under this new form of benefits. Hon. S. Hagen: I n t h a t t i m e p e r i o d t h e r e w e r e 19,019 applications received, and 77 percent of those, or 11,777, were approved. L. Mayencourt: I would like to ask the minister just for some historical context. I mentioned a little earlier about

schedule C.

Schedule C was to help individuals living with catastrophic i llness meet their needs in terms of medical care, bottled water and so on. I under- stand that in the period of time between 1996 and 2001, somewhere in the neighbou rhood of 600 individuals applied for

schedule C, and many of those individuals were granted

schedule C by tribunal. I wonder if the minister can tell me how many of those tribunals or those orders for

schedule C the Ministry of Human Resources appealed. Hon. S. Hagen: T h i s i s b e f o r e m y h i s t o r y , o b v i - ously, or my time in the ministry, but I'm told that un- der the previous administration these requests were mostly turned down. All cases that were turned down went to appeal, and nearly all were won at the appeal. J. MacPhail: In January '04 the caseload was — sorry — 114,000…. Hon. S. Hagen: It was 114,674. [1545] J. MacPhail: It was 114,674. Can the minister break that down for me in terms of the categories of social assistance? And if he could just read it slowly, please. Hon. S.

Hagen: Under temporary assistance, 47,178; persons with disabili ties, 51,448; persons with persistent multiple barrier s, 11,615; children in the home of a relative, 4,433 — for a total of 114,674. J. MacPhail: Those are cases. Thank you for that. How does that translate into people? Hon. S. Hagen: The number of people is 166,479. J. MacPhail: Could I have that by category? The areas that I'm particularly interested in are…. Well, no, I should not. I'm interested in all of them — if the min- ister could break them down, please. Hon. S. Hagen: These will be read out in the same order as the other ones were.

The first one is 84,505; then 4,433; 14,733; and 62,808. J. MacPhail: I'm referring to a monthly statistical report dated November 2003 that I got from the web- site. That's the document which I'm comparing. It just goes up to November. That's why I'm asking for these additional cases. It's as the minister says. It is temporary assistance cases, then persons with disabilities and then PPMB — that's persons with multiple barriers, etc. I'm just look- ing at the trend here. I could do my math quickly, but what portion of the client base now are children under the age of 18? Hon. S.

Hagen: Approximately 600 children under the age of 18. [1550] J. MacPhail: Sorry — 600 children under the age of 18 in the whole caseload? Interjection. J. MacPhail: No, I don't mean independent living. Sorry; my apologies. I meant total. How many children, whether they be…? I was go ing to ask that question separately. So there are 600 children on independent living. Fair enough, but…. Hon. S. Hagen: I apologize for that. The other number that you want is 42,962. J. MacPhail: The independent living number.

That, I understand, is children who are under 18, but some- one has assessed them to be able to live on their own and, therefore, collect soci al assistance. What is the change in the number of people on independent living — calendar year '01, '02 and '03, please? Hon. S. Hagen: We don't have those numbers; we'll get them. But it has declined. J. MacPhail: Last year there was a report by Family Services of Greater Vancouver that 15- and 16-year- olds were being diverted to welfare.

The reason why I was asking that question be forehand is because last February there were 22 16-year-olds and one 15-year- old receiving income assistance, and the previous min- ister said that was not an increase. I'm just wondering what the numbers are now. Hon. S. Hagen: We'll have to get that number for you. J. MacPhail: In terms of the way the exit surveys are done for the minister, I had previously asked the minis- try for statistics on the number of people who are unable to access financial assistance — for instance, those who apply and are turned down. I've never gotten that in- formation.

Is the ministry tracking the number of inquir- ies or cases opened but never followed through? Hon. S. Hagen: These are called pre-applications. We don't have them, but we'll get them for you.

10076 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 1, 2004 J. MacPhail: That's good. We have asked for them before, so I really would appreciate getting those num- bers, if I may. [1555] We've had a bit of discussion about the reduction in the budget — the $79 million for budget reduction for temporary assistance and then the employment pro- grams reduction of about $39 million. I want to ask the minister: how much of his budget reduction is encap- sulated by office closures? Hon. S. Hagen: The amount attributed to office closures — including salaries, benefits and capital — is $10.2 million. J.

MacPhail: I'm talking about the year '04-05. The minister nods that he is as well. What will be the reduc- tion in full-time-equivalent staff? Hon. S. Hagen: We've already accomplished our reduction in staff. There will be no further reductions in the '04-05 fiscal year. J. MacPhail: I'm referring to a link from the minis- ter's website called "2004 Information for Clients," and it's entitled…. There's a listing of service delivery changes by date. For instance, it says: "March 19, Ser- vice Delivery Changes." It's all under the headline of "2004 Information for Clients" changes.

It says "Service Delivery Changes." I want to ask the minister about whether the changes are a reduction, a relocation or a closure. Can we start with March 19, "Office…." I'm wondering. Maybe the minister can just find that. I can do it verbally just by asking the office loca- tions, or the minister may have the website. It's not necessary. Do you want me to start by just asking the various offices? Hon. S. Hagen: We have a list of the offices that are closing, if you'd like. J. MacPhail: All right. The minister has offered a list of the offices to close. I'll ask later for a list of offices relocating, if any.

Hon. S. Hagen: There are 26 amalgamations or clo- sures of offices. All of th em are amalgamations except Parksville, which is closing. The other amalgamations are occurring in Nanaimo, Campbell River, Sidney, Vic- toria, Vancouver, North Vancouver, Coquitlam, Pitt Meadows, Abbotsford, Surrey, Burnaby, Kelowna, Cranbrook, Vernon, Kamloops and Prince George. J. MacPhail: When the minister says it's an amal- gamation — for instance, Prince George — what's amalgamating? Hon. S. Hagen: An example would be in a commu- nity that has two offices that are amalgamating into one. J.

MacPhail: What guidelines for closure were put in place in terms of client access to an office? Hon. S. Hagen: I think the Leader of the Opposi- tion's question was: how are clients getting access to information? I can list a variety of ways. [1600] The ministry continues to deliver essential pro- grams and services to clients through the use of new technology and more effici ent practices, which of course frees up workers to spend more time with cli- ents on employment plans.

The ministry's electronic services provide all British Columbians with 24-hours- a-day, seven-days-a-week access to B.C. employment and assistance information through new telephone and Internet services. The auto mated telephone inquiry at 1-866-866-0800 offers British Columbians toll-free ac- cess to information about ministry programs and con- tacts. Ministry clients issued personal identification numbers can use the system to access information about their own income assistance cheques.

Electronic services allow individuals to complete their required B.C. employment and assistance orienta- tion session on line. Individuals may also enter per- sonal information into the on-line income assistance and child care subsidy esti mators and receive a rough calculation of their eligibility for assistance. The minis- try continues to effectively serve clients in remote areas of the province, where offices have closed, through a telephone service centre. Those individuals have access t o e l e c t r o n i c s e r v i c e s a s w e l l a s a l i n e t h a t c o n n e c t s them directly to ministry staff.

J. MacPhail: How often, on average, is a client re- quired to attend at an office, and then how often do clients, on average, actually attend an office? They are two different things. [J. Weisbeck in the chair.] Hon. S. Hagen: I know the member opposite asked two questions, and the an swers are different, but they're also different according to the category. If you look at persons with disab ilities, they don't have to attend an office very often, if at all. J. MacPhail: Who? Hon. S. Hagen: Persons with disabilities.

It might be once a year that they have to do a finan- cial document or assessment, but it may be that if they're severely disabled, th e worker may go to their home and do that, so they may not have to come in at all. [1605] With the employment clie nt, it can be done by p h o n e o r b y c o m i n g i n t o a n o f f i c e . I n s o m e r e m o t e communities, it might be done at a government agent's office. The government agent can, in fact, deal with the client. It might be once a month in that case; it might be once every two months. But it can be done by phone,

THURSDAY, APRIL 1, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10077 by computer, by government agent's office or by com- ing in, in person. J. MacPhail: If a person is required to attend at an office and doesn't, is there a penalty? Hon. S. Hagen: Again, it's very individualized. If a person misses an appointment or doesn't come in when they're supposed to, then th e worker tries to contact them by telephone or howeve r. If they can't contact them, then their cheque will be held in the office until they get in contact with them. J. MacPhail: My constituency office is at Nanaimo and Hastings in Vancouver.

I don't know whether my riding is an exception or not, but my constituency assis- tant opens up my office to people on social assistance for phone use, computer use and fax use to communicate with the Ministry of Human Resources. I must tell you that there is a huge demand for that. It's a proper service that the constituency office should offer. I'm sure I'm not alone in that. There's a huge demand. But what that also means is that people who are on social assistance don't have their own phone, fax or computer. Is there ever a time when a person is penalized?

Is the only penalty that they ha ve to come into the office to pick up their cheque? Hon. S. Hagen: I'm told that that is the only pen- alty. If they can't get in touch with them, then they w o u l d h a v e t o c o m e i n t o t h e o f f i c e t o p i c k u p t h e i r cheque. J. MacPhail: In the latest

article I can find in the newspaper about office closures, there was concern raised by some local politicians in Colwood and Lang- ford. They're having three neighbourhood offices of the Ministry of Human Resources closing effective today, and several councillors — Cynthia Day being one — are raising concern about th e closure of the offices. When the ministry closes offices, do they sit down and talk to the local service agencies or local politicians? Hon. S. Hagen: Our staff don't talk to councillors, but they certainly talk to staff in the municipal office to ensure that the service is carried out.

I know in the case of Langford, the MLA was out talking to the Langford council very recently. [1610] V. Roddick: We as a government stated time and time again that we would not impose cookie-cutter methods in delivering services and that common sense would prevail. The people of my riding of Delta South naturally move north-south — i.e., to White Rock or to the Richmond-Vancouver area — hence the arrange- ment that Delta Hospital actually has made with Rich- mond General Hospital.

Delta South, though, has been rounded up into the Fraser region — their offices are in Surrey — to report to for all Human Resources services, including train- ing, retraining programs, et c. This means a two-hour bus ride and SkyTrain transfer each way. To attend the same series of offices or programs or whatever in Richmond or Vancouver, it's a 20- to 30-minute single bus ride each way.

I know the regions are funded separately, but surely to heaven, common sense can prevail here and some arrangement could be made to allow my con- stituents reasonable and timely access to services pro- vided under your ministry by taking a leaf out of the Delta-Richmond health accord. Hon. S. Hagen: I thank the member for her ques- tion, and I can assure her that in our ministry, common sense always prevails. Our offices and regions are con- tiguous with the Ministries of Health and of Children and Family Development.

If there is an anomaly there that isn't working and if you bring it to my attention, I'll be happy to look into it. L. Mayencourt: Just getting back a little bit further to the disability issue. I need a bit of a refresher here from the minister. I had asked two separate questions. One was dealing with

schedule C, and I think the min- ister said that there were approximately 600 applica- tions for

schedule C, appr oximately 600 approvals and approximately 600 appeals by the ministry. In other words, the ministry said: "No, we don't want to pay this money to these individu als." Upon a tribunal re- viewing those requests, the clients were actually awarded the benefits. Have I got that right? Hon. S. Hagen: Yes, that's correct. L. Mayencourt: In other words, the previous gov- ernment's Ministry of Human Resources, as a matter of course, appealed all

schedule C applications. I know t h i s i s b e f o r e y o u r t i m e a s M i n i s t e r o f H u m a n R e - sources, but these individuals would be people living with HIV/AIDS, with canc er, with Lou Gehrig's — people that really needed extra income in order to meet their medical care needs. How long would it generally take from the time t h a t t h e y w e r e a p p r o v e d b y t h e M i n i s t r y o f H u m a n Resources to receive the money — or rather the time in which they were approved to receive the money — to the ministry appealing that? Do you know what the time frame was? How long did that take?

In other words, how long were they waiting to get the award they were entitled to? Hon. S. Hagen: That program was called the monthly health benefit, an d the appeal process could take six to nine months. L. Mayencourt: That is the kind of information I had been hearing in my comm unity, and I think it was one of the things that really provided me with an impe- tus to get involved in this, because I saw that as a fun- damental flaw in the delivery of services to Ministry of Human Resources clients.

10078 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 1, 2004 [1615] A few minutes earlier I asked the minister…. There's been an increase of roughly 9,000 new clients eligible for the new disability under the Employment and Assistance Act. He gave m e a n i n d i c a t i o n o f t h e number of people who have applied, and approxi- mately 77 percent of those individuals have been ap- proved. Is that correct? Hon. S. Hagen: That's correct. L. Mayencourt: Of those 77 percent that have ap- plied, did the ministry appeal any of their awards for enhanced benefits for disability? Hon. S.

Hagen: The ministry does not appeal. L. Mayencourt: That's refreshing. I want to tell you that I witnessed, in my time in working in the AIDS and cancer world in Vancouver- Burrard…. For many years I helped individuals with

schedule C, so I'm acquainted with the kind of agony and despair and worry and delays that affected those individuals. It's nice to see that this government has, I think, a more humane and compassionate approach to dealing with individuals living with those disabilities. Mr. Chair, I would like now to talk a little bit about an announcement that I had the opportunity to make in the downtown east side th is week. I'm sure it got a little bit of air time. The minister was unable to be with us at that announcement, but I know it was a demon- stration of his commitment to that community. I would like for him to say….

Why did you come up with $3.25 million for the downtown east side employment pro- grams? Hon. S. Hagen: I appreciate the member for Vancouver-Burrard raising this, because it is an impor- tant agreement, the Vancouver agreement — $3.25 mil- lion. It's also a partnership approach. It involves the federal government, the city of Vancouver and the province of British Columbia. It's really a way of trying to solve some of the problems faced by our most barri- ered clients. L.

Mayencourt: As the minister knows, although I represent the riding of Va ncouver-Burrard, I am quite often in the riding of Vancouver–Mount Pleasant, and it's because I like the folks down there. I really enjoy spending time with them. I see some of the challenges they face. I have been at times critical and at times very supportive of the Vancouver agreement. I see some really strong pieces to that arrangement and some weaknesses as well.

I know that our government had committed $10 million earlier this year, plus the $3.25 million that was announced just this week, and I know that the feds have put in $10 million to that same program. All told, we've got about $23.5 million that has been contributed by the two senior levels of government. I wonder if the minister can let me know how much the city of Van- couver has contributed to the employment program. [1620] Hon. S. Hagen: T

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	h0401pm-05
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	h0401pm 05
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	f11ca60ba5d0fe491349aac08d3a7d8d4507b3ea

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