Manitoba Hansard — 21 April 2005 (Sitting 34B, 38th Legislature, 3rd Session)

38-3-34b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session - Thirty-Eighth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LVI No. 34B - 1:30 p.m., Thursday, April 21, 2005

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Eighth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thom pson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CULLEN, Cliff Turtle Mountain P.C. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C.

FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. LOEWEN, John Fort Whyte P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon.

Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P. SMITH, Scott, Hon.

Brandon West N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. SWAN, Andrew Minto N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

1673 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, April 21, 2005 The House met at 1:30 p.m. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PETITIONS Riverdale Health Centre Mrs. Leanne Ro wat (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for the petition: The Riverdale Health Centre services a popula- tion of approximately 2000, including the Town of Rivers and the R.M. of Daly, as well as the Sioux Valley First Nation and local Hutterite colonies.

The need for renovation or repair of the Riverdale Health Centre was identified in 1999 by the Marquette Regional Health Authority (RHA) and was the No. 1 priority listed in the RHA's 2002-2003 Operational Plan. To date, the community has raised over $460,000 towards the renovation or repair of the health centre. On June 1, 2003, the Premier (Mr. Doer) made a commitment to the community of Rivers that he would not close or downgrade the services available at Riverdale Health Centre.

Due to physician shortages, the Riverdale Health Centre has been closed to acute care and emergency services for long periods since December 2003, forcing community members to travel to Brandon or elsewhere for health care services. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the Premier to consider ensuring that acute care and emergency services are available to the residents of Rivers and surrounding areas in their local hospital and to live up to his promise to not close the Rivers Hospital. To request that the Minister of Health (Mr.

Sale) consider developing a long-term solution to the chronic shortages of front line health care profes- sionals in rural Manitoba. This petition has been signed by R. Vassart, Brenda Eisler, Margaret Burt and others. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by the House. Ambulance Service Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: In May 2004, 46-year-old Peter Krahn suffered a heart attack while exercising in East St.

Paul and was pronounced dead just under an hour later after being transported to the Concordia Hospital in Winnipeg. Reports show that it took nearly 18 minutes for an ambulance to arrive for Mr. Krahn. The Interlake Regional Health Authority claims that 21 minutes is an acceptable emergency response time,

whereas the City of Winnipeg uses a bench- mark of 4 minutes. Ambulance coverage for East St. Paul is provided from Selkirk, which is almost 25 kilometres away. The municipalities of East St. Paul and West St. Paul combined have over 12 000 residents. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the provincial government to consider providing East St. Paul with local ambulance service which would service both East and West St. Paul. To request the provincial government to consider improving the way that ambulance service is supplied to all Manitobans by utilizing technologies such as GPS in conjunction with a

1674 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 2005 Medical Transportation Co-ordination Centre (MTCC) which will ensure that patients receive the nearest ambulance in the least amount of time. To request the provincial government to consider ensuring that appropriate funding is provided to maintain superior response times and sustainable services. Signed by Brenda Hebert, Elizabeth Hebert, Katharine Hebert and many others. * (13:35) Generally Accepted Accounting Principles Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.

The background to this petition is as follows: Manitoba's provincial auditor has stated that Manitoba's 2003-2004 budget deficit was the second highest on record at $604 million. The provincial government is misleading the public by saying they had a surplus of $13 million in the 2003-2004 budget. The provincial auditor has indicated that the $13-million surplus the government says it had cannot be justified. The provincial auditor has also indicated that the Province is using its own made up accounting rules in order to show a surplus instead of using generally accepted accounting principles.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the provincial government to consider adopting generally accepted accounting principles in reporting Manitoba's budgetary numbers. Signed by V. Modha, D. B. Sud and H. Sud. Closure of Victoria General Hospital Maternity Ward Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background to this petition is as follows: It has been decided that the birthing ward at the Victoria General Hospital in Winnipeg, Manitoba, will be closed.

Some say the birthing ward is being closed due to safety issues. It has been proven time and time again that outcomes for normal pregnancies in normal women are better in a community hospital like the Victoria General Hospital than in a tertiary care centre like the Health Sciences Centre and with a general practitioner or midwife rather than an obstetrician. Not a single study has ever shown the contrary. Obstetrics services at community hospitals can work if the political will is there to make them work. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister of Health (Mr.

Sale) to allow women options when they give birth and to consider stopping the planned closure of the Victoria General Hospital maternity ward. Signed by Jennifer Forsyth, R. Curtis and Cathy Ward. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Scott Smith (Minist er of Intergovernmental Affairs and Trade): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review of 2005-2006, Departmental Expenditure Estimates for Intergovernmental Affairs and Trade. Hon. Jim Rondeau (Minister of Industry, Economic Development and Mines): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to table the 2005-2006 Supplementary Estimates Expenditures for the Department of Industry, Economic Development and Mines. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 31–The Condominium Amendment Act Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): I move, seconded by the Minister of Health (Mr. Sale), that Bill 31, The Condominium Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les condominiums, be now read a first time.

April 21, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1675 Mr. Speaker: It has been moved by the honourable Minister of Finance, seconded by the honourable Minister of Health, that Bill 31, The Condominium Amendment Act, be now read a first time. Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, The Condominium Amendment Act makes a number of changes to increase protection for condominium owners. The changes pertain to the cooling-off period, informa- tion to be provided to prospective purchasers, construction documents and reserve fund accounts. Mr.

Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] * (13:40) Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us from Dalhousie School 21 Grade 4 students under the direction of Mrs. Marla Armstrong. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for St. Norbert (Ms. Brick). Also in the public gallery we have from Gimli High School 18 Grade 9 students under the direction of Mr. Randy Semenek.

This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Education, Citizenship and Youth (Mr. Bjornson). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTIONS Hip and Knee Replacement Surgery Wait Lists Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the number of Manitobans living in excruciating pain, because they are forced to wait years for hip and knee replace- ments, is growing under this NDP government.

My office was recently c ontacted by a concerned Manitoban whose sister was told that a year ago, she had an eight to ten-month wait for hip replacement surgery. When that deadline came last fall, she was suddenly told that her orthopedic surgeon had moved to B.C. Even though she was assured that she did not lose her spot on the wait li st, she did. Then she was told this past February that she would have at least another six months to wait. Once again, this NDP's so-called six-month average wait for hip replacement has turned into years. Mr.

Speaker, I am going to ask this Premier, as this Manitoban asked me to ask this Premier: If a person who allows an anim al to suffer is charged with animal cruelty, why is this NDP government allowed to let humans suffer? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I think you will recall, and others will recall when we presented to the health reform meetings in Ottawa, we stated clearly that we have made progress on the life and death situations. The cancer treatment has gone from eight weeks to one week. The cardiac surgery list has gone down over 50 percent in terms of waiting.

The neurosurgery is the best in the country. We also acknowledge that hips, knees and cataracts require work, effort and investment. We have, just in the last two months, announced a co- ordinated waiting list strategy for patients. The member is absolutely right you should not have a situation where a person is on one waiting list based on only a doctor, and then the doctor leaves, and with another doctor, then you have to start all over. So we want, and we have actually announced a co- ordinated waiting list. We have to get that waiting list down. People are waiting too long.

We have more orthopedic surgeons today than we had a few years ago. We have more students in training in orthopedic surgeries. We have more surgical theatres than we had a couple of years ago, including Concordia Hospital and other theatres. We have more orthopedic students graduating from our program. Mr. Speaker, we also need more anesthetists in the system to have more operations and the Minister of Health (Mr. Sale) is working on that as well. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, despite the political spin from the Premier, Manitobans are suffering under this Premier.

While this Premier continues to ignore our health solutions, there are many solutions that are supported by other Manitobans, like the one that I spoke to, to ensure there is timely access to care for patients in Manitoba. Like us, this Manitoban

1676 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 2005 believes the NDP government should cut out frivolous costs, slash skyrocketing administrative costs, divert money to front-line care and conduct a thorough review of regionalization. But this Premier will not do that, because we know, very much like he cannot manage Manitoba's fiscal responsibility, he cannot manage health care as well. Mr. Speaker, another Manitoba patient who has been suffering fo r years on this Premier's growing hip replacement wait list is Lois Osudar from Brandon.

According to an e-mail from one of the NDP government's health intake co-ordinators, and I quote, "I just spoke to Mrs. Lois Osudar who has been waiting for hip replacement– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, they might find it funny that Mrs. Osudar has to wait for hip replacement, we do not. I would like to ensure, Mr. Speaker, that they listen carefully to this quote that came from a health intake co-ordinator. "I just spoke to Mrs. Lois Osudar, who has been waiting for a hip replacement for two years. She has been on the waiting lists in Brandon and Winkler.

She just phoned Winkler to see where she was on their list and was informed that they have done their quota and will not be doing any more until May." Mr. Speaker, in response to that, a long-time NDP political staffer said, and I quote, "This does not bode well for our waiting list plan. Between no pediatric dental at Mis and no ortho in Brandon or Boundary Trails, we are not really getting much in the way of service delivery." Mr. Speaker, the NDP's own supporters and political staff can come clean, and under the NDP health care delayed is health care denied. Why will this Premier not come clean? * (13:45) Mr.

Doer: The average wait time for hip replace- ment surgery is 35.7 weeks, but knee replacement is 46 weeks. Those times are both unacceptable. We have announced a thousand more surgeries in this province. We have more– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: There are more operational theatres now for both those procedures. There are more procedures being conducted in hospitals and in the clinics of Manitoba. There are more anesthetists needed in this system. I believe the statement out of the Boundary Trails hospital has been corrected. Mr. Murray: As the e-mail indicated, Ms.

Osudar was told she would not get timely surgery because of quotas, yet, the Health Minister says there is no quota. Mr. Speaker, this minister has misled Manitobans during Hydra House when he was Minister of Family Services, and is misleading them again now that he is Minister of Health. Manitobans do not trust that minister and they certainly do not trust that NDP government. As Mrs. Osudar told the Brandon Sun and I quote, "It is not the doctor's fault. It is the politicians.

They treat animals better than they treat people." Again I quote from their own political staffer who said, "This does not bode well for our waiting list plan. Between no pediatric dental at Mis and no ortho in Brandon or Boundary Trails, we are not getting much in the way of service delivery." This Premier can spin and quote whatever he wants. The fact of life is he can deny quotas and he can deny their failures, but Manitobans know, Mr. Speaker, that under this NDP government, under this Premier, health care delayed is health care denied.

Why will he not come clean with Manitobans and do what he promised he would do to shorten waiting lists for hip and knee surgery instead of making our Manitobans suffer day after day, month after month? He should do better. Mr. Doer: The member can yell as loud as he wants, Mr. Speaker, and that will not change the facts. People have a good read on where the Conservatives were when they were in office. They have a very good read of the progress we are making in health care. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Health (Mr. Sale) has consistently stated, and I have heard him state it– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

April 21, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1677 Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: The Minister of Health has consistently stated, and we have all stated we have made progress on cancer care treatment, we have made progress on cardiac, we have made progress on neurosurgery. We have made progress in reversing the firing of nurses. We have made progress on getting more doctors, but we have also said there is more work to do. We need more doctors. We need more nurses, Mr. Speaker that is why we are training them. We need more procedures. We have increased a number of procedures by 20 percent.

The thousand will be 46% more procedures. We have been very, very clear with the public. Where we have made some inroads on waiting lists, we have stated it; where we have not been able to make the inroads, we have also said we have more work to do. I would say, further to the newspaper story in the Brandon media a week ago, we are certainly aware of the co mments and we certainly acknowledge there is more work to do. We find the waiting times for hips and knees too long. Brandon Regional Health Authority Administration Costs Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Mr.

Speaker, this is a Premier of Manitoba who has stood before Manitobans and told them at that time that he would end hallway medicine in six months with $15 million. He lied about that, he is lying now, and that is unfortunate. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The word "liar" or referring to another member as "lied" has never been accepted by any Speaker in this House. I ask the honourable member to withdraw that comment. Mrs. Stefanson: I withdraw the comment, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Thank you. * (13:50) Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on a point of order.

Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I believe it has become practice that a member in circumstances like this not only withdraw, but apologize to the House. We ask that the member please do that. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on the same point of order. Mr. Leonard Derkach (Official Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, on that same point of order, if the Minister of Health (Mr. Sale) would start telling the truth in this House– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order.

I would like to caution the honourable Official Opposition House Leader not to use a point of order to put unparliamentary language on record. I ask the honourable member to rephrase that. I ask the honourable member to withdraw that and to rephrase his wording. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, I will. Mr. Speaker, the reality is that the individuals who should be apologizing to Manitobans and to this House are the Minister of Health and the Premier (Mr. Doer). For too long, we have had statements made in this House that in no way resemble the reality or the facts as they are.

It is time the Minister of Health and the Premier, not just for the sake of the media, but in terms of the sake of Manitobans, would come clean and not embellish the truth, at least parallel the truth. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Government House Leader, he does not have a point of order. I am satisfied to the withdrawal of the honourable Member for Tuxedo. * * * Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Tuxedo, to continue. Mrs. Stefanson: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

Over the last few months, we have raised concerns regarding the shortage of physicians in the Brandon Regional Health Authority in the Brandon area. Brandon continues to be short orthopedic surgeons, pediatricians, internal medicine specialists,

1678 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 2005 ophthalmologists, psychiatrists, dermatologists, anesthetists, rehab physicians, ER doctors, and as we mentioned last week, even the physician recruiter has been recruited elsewhere. Yet this NDP government has allowed the Brandon Regional Health Authority to bloat its bureaucracy by employing more than 90 senior managers, directors, co-ordinators and vice presidents, increas ing its administration costs by some 136 percent since this NDP government came to power. Mr.

Speaker, how can this NDP government justify such a bloated bureaucracy at a time when Brandon residents are being forced to leave the region to get health care services they need? Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Health): There were 160 more physicians practising in Manitoba at the end of 2004 than there were at the end of 1999. That is not embellishing, Mr. Speaker, that is simply the record from the College of Physicians and Surgeons. There were 713 more nurses graduating at the end of 2004 according to the College of the Manitoba Association of Registered Nurses.

That is not embellishing, that is the college of nurses speaking. The Brandon Regional Health Authority has committed itself to do an additional 120 hips and knees over the next two y ears. They are short one orthopedic surgeon at present, which they are recruiting actively. We have six more orthopedic surgeons in Manitoba doing their work today than there were in 1999, when we formed government. We have 20% more procedures than we inherited in 1999. Mr. Speaker, I will continue with my next answer. Regional Health Authorities Review Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Mr.

Speaker, the organizational chart for the Brandon Regional Health Authority is some seven pages long. That is longer than some of the wait lists in our province. This NDP government has allowed a 136% increase in administrative costs at the Brandon Regional Health Authority while at the same time it has failed to recruit and retain physicians there. It is a prime example of why we, on this side of the House, have been calling for a review of regionalization.

Will the Minister of Health now commit to undertaking a review of regionalization so that these bloated administrative costs can be redirected into patient care? Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Health): I know the member was frustrated in Estimates the other day when she had to accept the fact that CIHI had reported the consistent pattern of administration in the Brandon Regional Health Authority and, in fact, other regional health authorities, such as Assiniboine Regional Health Authority, has been a flat line or a decline in administrative costs.

In fact, over the period from 2000-2004, five reporting periods, administrative costs have fallen from 5.9 percent to 5.8 percent of all costs, according to CIHI. The member did not like that information from CIHI then; she apparently still does not like it, Mr. Speaker. * (13:55) Methamphetamine Production Control Strategy Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): In December of 1998, a Justice conference was held in Winnipeg, sponsored by the former government that brought together officials from acr oss western Canada and the United States. This conference was called the Erasing Borders conference.

One of the issues discussed in December of 1998 was the impact of the drug methamphetamine, and ways to prevent it from getting a hold of Manitoba's youth, with direction that was given to develop a strategy to ensure the drug would not come into Manitoba and take hold of our youth. Six months later, when the Minister of Justice came to office, these initiatives ground to a halt. Why did the Minister of Justice put a stop to initiatives to prevent methamphetamine from taking over Manitoba youth, Mr. Speaker? Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (M inister of Justice and Attorney General): I regret that the member, once again, is misinformed, Mr . Speaker. What happened is that there was some expertise brought into Manitoba in order to train the trainers, those who deal on the front lines with the production of meth. As a result of that, I can tell you that, as late as just

April 21, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1679 two weeks ago, the Office of the Fire Commissioner along with law enforcement officials, as one example, continued to ensure the law enforcement officials and other responde rs were well equipped to deal with the threats of methamphetamine, a most serious threat that has to be dealt with on many different levels. Work on that one is very much underway. I wish the member opposite would inform himself on the initiative that he talks of. Mr. Goertzen: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Justice says that initiatives are well underway.

The initiative I was speaking about started in 1998 of December. He has had six long years to get strategies in place. Trying to uproot the drug out of Manitoba now will be much more difficult than if he just slammed the gate back then. Last week, we heard of a mom in Brandon who came across used drug needles near an elementary school. We have heard American justice officials saying that crystal meth is being traded straight up for Manitoba marijuana across our borders. The police say that methamphetamines are being dropped into Manitoba's bars for free.

This Minister of Justice was alerted six years ago initiatives were underway and he shelved those initiatives. Why has he done nothing for six years? I know he is going to bring forward announcements pretty soon. He is going to blow up balloons and he is going to hand out cake, but he has had six years to do something. He has done nothing. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, the member does not know what he is talking about. First of all, I do not want members opposite and this member to be reflecting on the work of law enforcement in dealing with the challenges of drug manufacturing. Mr.

Speaker, it was in September of 2003, that Operation Diversion unfolded in this province. As a result of that, there were 17 Canadians and 12 Americans who were busted. That is the kind of action we are seeing on the front lines to counter the threats of meth and the precursors like ephedrine. When it comes to action on meth, I want to remind the member opposite, two weeks ago he called for a drug port to be established, which by the way, has to be done by the federal government. We had, as one of twenty-one agencies, submitted an application to the federal government in January.

We cannot wait for the member to come up with ideas to take action. Behavioural Therapist Availability Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): Mr. Speaker, last week I warned the Minister of Family Services about a very serious and precarious situation. Jackie, a vulnerable person who had attempted suicide on many occasions, is in desperate need of a behavioural therapist. I ask that the minister address this urgent problem. I asked her again yesterday in a hand-delivered letter. Jack ie has still not seen a behavioural therapist. Why is this minister ignoring Jackie and her family? Why does she not take this seriously?

Hon. Christine Melnick (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Mr. Speaker, I will confirm to the House today, as I di d last week, that certainly we take these situations very seriously. There is, in fact, an appointment with a behaviour specialist today in the incident being discussed. The department has also been contacted and reminded that when someone presents in a suicidal situation they will get very quick action, which, by the way, in situations like this kind, happens anyway. The department does respond to this.

I think it is very important that we do respect these situations that are very serious, and that we respect the front-line caregivers, the community supports, the department and the families. I can assure the House the department works with all of the stakeholders in situations of this nature. Minister of Family Services and Housing Meeting Request Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): Mr. Speaker, this family has been asking for support for two months. Louise White, Jackie's sister, is in the gallery today. The minister will go on about what she is doing for vulnerable people.

She will talk the talk, but will she walk the walk? Will she meet with Jackie today? Jackie is here and she wants to meet. Will the minister meet with Jackie today? * (14:00) Hon. Christine Melnick (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Mr. Speaker, it is unfortunate this case is being dealt with by the opposition in the manner that it is.

1680 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 2005 I can assure you that the department has been working again with all the stakeholders. I also remind members of the House that when they become aware of a situat ion where an individual may, in fact, be suicidal that they take initiative as well to report this to the Mobile Crisis unit, Mr. Speaker, so that any unfortunate incidents may be avoided. Mrs. Taillieu: Mr. Speaker, I take that answer to be a no, that she will refuse to meet with this family. Louise White has been trying to deal with this situation. She is totally stressed.

She has looked to us to help her because this government will not help. They are just stonewalling her. I am asking the minister, Louise is asking the minister. Please, I need some help here. Why are they ignoring her? Ms. Melnick: I believe what is being ignored, Mr. Speaker, is the rational response of the department in the care of this individual as well as other individuals who may be in a delicate situation. Again, I would call on the members to respect the situation, to recognize that in a situation such as this there is a community of supports.

There is a community of professionals, and the department is working with those individuals. Klinic Community Health Centre has a province-wide line. There is also the Kids Help Phone. Funding for mental health supports has risen by 38 percent since 1999. That is an increase of close to $20 million. We are not ignoring any situations of this nature, Mr. Speaker. Hydra House Transfer of Care Agreement Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, now we know how it was that this government so easily ignored the problems at Hydra House. They can ignore a problem that is sitting on their doorstep.

In a release today, we learn that St. Amant, and I would applaud St. Amant for taking over responsibilities in Hydra House, but I do not applaud this government when I realize that they are paying 2.27 million for the assets of an organization that skimmed 1.5 million at least off the top of the funds they were receiving that should have gone to vulnerable individuals. Ms. Melnick: To correct the record, we did not ignore the concerns, Mr. Sp eaker. We referred it to the AG, which is more than what happened under the previous administration who did not even know what was going on.

This government knew early in 2000 there were problems. They would have us believe that nothing was important until 2004, according to their fact sheets. What explanation has this minister got for paying that money for Hydra House? Hon. Christine Melnick (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Well, of course, Mr. Speaker, any response must be prefaced with the fact that the department's ability to monitor the spending in these organizations was cancelled under the watch of the former government. It took 10 years to get into this mess. It has taken nine months for us to disentangle.

The announcement today is based largely on meetings I had with families and caregivers in October who made it very clear to me that due to the vulnerable nature of these persons it is imperative that they stay in their own homes. I will quote the member from Morris, the critic, who said just a few weeks ago in this House, "Can she, the minister, guarantee that no one will be moved from their present home?" Members opposite cannot have it both ways, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, you cannot blame us for being a little sceptical.

This is the government that could have bought a sound stage for a dollar, I believe, and they insisted on paying three million. Now we have the assets that have been paid for through the services of Hydra House, and now they are going to buy them again. Mr. Speaker, there was no logic to the minister's answers. I want her to put on the record how she can logically justify this month's expenditure given the events that have occurred in Hydra House that they have ignored since early 2000. There were four realistic options, Mr. Speaker. The first was the negotiated settlement announced today.

The second was the buying of new homes. The third was the building of new homes, and the fourth was a legal process. The buying or building of homes would have taken at least one to two years, and would have meant we would have had to continue to deal with Hydra House and would have inevitably cost more than the current settlement. The

April 21, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1681 legal process was uncertain at best. Hydra House would have been insolvent at the end of it, and we would have seen no cost recovery. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, the real tragedy is that this government, in early 2000, knew there were questionable practices. They excused them, they ignored them, and now, five years later, they say that they are rushing to solve the problem they have known about for five years.

That is why we have to have a practical explanation from this minister about how they arrived at this value knowing that there was $1.5 million, probably of questionable expenditures, that could not be justified by the owners. Ms. Melnick: We arrived at this decision, Mr. Speaker, by accepting the expe rt advice of lawyers, of housing appraisers, of architects and engineers. We have been through a long and rather rocky process, I admit, because it was a very difficult situation to understand that what happened under the current government is a mess we had to clean up.

There were three main elements here. [interjection] The previous government. The first element was care for the vulnerable people. The second element was to cut ties with Hydra House as expedientl y as possible, and the third element was to get the best deal for the taxpayers of Manitoba. This is what we did. It took nine months to get here, but we are now moving forward with an institution of high repute, an institution of proven quality of care for these individuals. Crocus Fund Public Inquiry Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr.

Speaker, in reality, the mess at Hydra House is the result of the incompetence of the Minister of Health (Mr. Sale), just as the mess at Crocus is the result of the irresponsibility of the Minister of Industry, as well as the member from Brandon West. As a result of that, over $60 million of taxpayers' and unit holders' money has disappeared. The question remains where did it go?

There are allegations floating around the community that companies funded by Crocus paid for trips to the Olympics, paid for trips to Cyprus, paid for trips to Las Vegas, were used by individuals to build houses in Florida, and to this date, the government has set up no mechanism to help explain to taxpayers and unit holders where this $60 million has gone and what it has eventually been used for. The Auditor General does not have the authority.

I would ask the Minister of Industry if there is another way besides a public inquiry to find out where the $60 million that Crocus shareholders were fleeced out of has disappeared. Hon. Jim Rondeau (Minister of Industry, Economic Development and Mines): Mr. Speaker, it was our government that expanded the powers of the Auditor General that enabled him to make sure he could go and do an investigation, an unfettered investigation, an independent investigation that he can look at all aspects of the management, the investment and the board governance, so he could do a proper job.

It is our government that made sure that the Manitoba Securities Commission could do an unfettered investigation to make sure that all the trading, all the reporting that was appropriate was done. As you said, in government, as Mr. Filmon, as Mr. Stefanson and Mr. Manness said, it is important to allow the independent, non-political professionals the opportunity to do the jo b they are responsible to do. Mr. Loewen: More information. The Auditor General always had the authority. He simply needed a letter from the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) which, for some reason, he refused to give him until February. Mr.

Speaker, between September of 2002 and March of this year, Crocus has invested over $15 million in companies than they had previously invested in. Taxpayers and unit holders have a right and this government has a responsibility to get to the bottom of where this money has gone. Has this money been given away simply to help prop up the value of Crocus shares? Has it been given to friends to use to pay for trips for Crocus management? Where has this money gone? The only way we can find that out is through a public inquiry. The Auditor General does not have the authority to look into these companies.

The Manitoba Securities Commission does not have the authority. This government has the authority. How else are taxpayers and unit holders expected to find out how they have been fleeced out of their money unless we have a public inquiry?

1682 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 2005 * (14:10) Mr. Rondeau: Mr. Speaker, the Auditor General has the right, the responsibility and the power to do the investigation. In fact, in 2001, we made sure that the act was enlarged so that any organization and I repeat, any organization that receives financial assistance or tax credits, this act allows the Auditor General to go in and investigate. That is what we did. We had expanded the role of the Auditor General to do that.

Things like Wellington West, when the sale of the MTS took place and we cried for it, the Auditor General did not have the right or responsibility necessarily to go in and lo ok at that transaction. Under our government, he has that right and obligation and in fact, we expanded the right, and it would not have been done under your government. Let me make a suggestion to the minister. Would the minister establish a fund? Be patient and listen, here is an idea for the minister.

Would the minister establish a fund that would reward people who would assist in finding grow ops so that we can be supporting our police officers? Will he support an initiative of that nature? Marijuana Grow Operations Reduction Strategy Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, one of the fastest growing industries in the province since this government has taken office has been grow ops. Individual homes or homes that are housing numerous plants of marijuana is an industry that has grown by the millions over the last number of years.

Six months ago the Minister of Justice indicated that he was going to, maybe, look at legislation, he was going to try to do something. Six months ago he said that he would do something about grow ops. My question is when will the Minister of Justice table a plan that is going to deal with this problem that continues to grow, an industry that Manitobans really do not want to see grow? Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (M inister of Justice and Attorney General): Yes, I can advise the House and confirm that what I think the members know is that eight departments are working together to look at comprehensive ways to counter the threat of drug manufacturing in the province of Manitoba of illicit drugs. Mr. Speaker, I remind the member opposite as well that we have taken a position across this country as Justice ministers that the laws with respect to grow operations have to be enhanced. I would ask the member to join the chorus of the Attorneys General across this country in asking for action on that. Mr.

Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, I will go further than that. Not only would I lobby the federal government to take responsibility, I am going to suggest that this Minister of Justice should also be taking responsibility. This Minister of Justice, more than any other Minister of Justice, knows how to talk. These are all press releases in the last couple of years from this minister talking about doing things. In reality, we have a huge growing industry that is getting worse because this mi nister chooses to sit on his hynie and do nothing. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr.

Speaker, if the member is suggesting that the police are not on this issue, I would be very disappointed because they have been doing a tremendous job. I also remind the member opposite that, as I understand it, this is the first government in Canada to bring in legislation, The Safer Communities Act, which has shut down, I understand actually, over 92 drug dens and prostitution houses that sometimes are at risk of ruining entire neighbourhoods.

I also remind the member opposite that it is my understanding this government is the first one in Canada to have ushered in impaired driving laws that deal with drunk driving, yes, but also drug-impaired driving. Mr. Lamoureux: Yes, Mr. Speaker, what we hear from the Minister of Justice is nothing more than babble. Yet the reality is quite different than what the Minister of Justice, day after day, tries to espouse. We can look at grow ops, as an example; car thefts, over 13 000 vehicles, and yet we have another press release out today, I understand, saying how they are taking action. Well, what balderdash.

Their action does not even resemble clos ely what sorts of words they talk about. My suggestion to the minister, and I ask the minister, would the minister establish a fund that would reward people who would assist in finding grow ops? This is an idea th at could actually make a difference. Why would the minister not choose to take action as opposed to this bafflegab? Manitobans are

April 21, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1683 getting tired of his failure, his inability to deal with crime in our province. We are asking this minister to take responsibility and start doing things that are going to see results. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, I want to inform the member that, indeed, and I wish he had done this research, there is such a fund. It is in place in Winnipeg and beyond. I wish to announce to the honourable member that there is such a fund, and I am amazed and disappointed he does not know about it. It is called Crime Stoppers. Mr.

Speaker, I also ask the member would he now reconsider his opposition to this government's decision that there will be 54 new police officers on the streets of Manitoba over the next two years. Why is he opposed to that? CAIS Program Deposits Mr. Tom Nevakshonoff (Interlake): Mr. Speaker, I would like to preface my question by saying how disappointed I am with members opposite that, once again, we have gone through Question Period and not one question on agriculture to date so far.

In fact, in the past week we have had one question on agriculture despite the fact that three-quarters of their caucus are from rural Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, I have a question. I know Manitoba was the first Province to sign the agreement that would allow producers to withdraw their full deposits under the CAIS program. Can the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives inform the House how many other provinces have signed on to the agreement, how soon it will take effect, and what will be the process for producers to make their withdrawals? Point of Order Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (M inister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. I think it is fortunate there are no school children in here today and heard just what we heard from the other side. The din from the other side– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I have asked all honourable members in the past, if I am dealing with a point of order or a motion, I need to be able to hear every word that is spoken. So, I ask the co-operation of all honourable members, please. The honourable Government House Leader, on a point of order. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr.

Speaker, I only assume that it is because of the embarrassment of the opposition in not asking an agriculture question, not being able to prioritize it, that they yelled through the entirety of the question that was being posed. I wonder if you could call the House to order. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on the same point of order. Mr. Leonard Derkach (Official Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I do not dispute that perhaps the noises from both sides of the House were louder than they should be.

The noises were louder than they should be, but when th e House Leader says that the minister could not hear her question, well, she wrote the question. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. * (14:20) Mr. Derkach: For the Member fo r Interlake, who says he is so conversant with agricultural issues, to have to read his question line by line, does not seem to me as though it was a genuine question, Mr. Speaker. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order.

On the point of order raised by the honourable Government House Leader, at this time I would like to ask the co-operation of all honourable members. Wh en members are raising questions or asking or answering questions, everyone has a right to hear the ques tion and the answer. Also the government backbenchers who are not ministers are entitled to raise questions. * * * Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Interlake has put his question. Now I call upon the honourable Minister of Agriculture and Food to answer.

1684 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 2005 Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minis ter of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): For the part of the question that I could hear, Mr. Speaker, the Member for Interlake was asking a question about CAIS deposits, a very important issue for the producers of Manitoba. I was very pleased that Manitoba was the first province to sign on to ensure that all deposits did go back to producers. I can inform the House that Manitoba, Saskatchewan and the federal government have signed on.

I know that other provinces are in the process, but deposits cannot go to producers until we have nine provinces or 50 percent of the production in this country signed on. I am hopeful that other provinces will sign very soon, and then producers will be able to get their money back by calling the CAIS office. CAIS will issue a withdrawal author ization notice and then money will be released. Waverley West Subdivision Conflict of Interest Mrs.

Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): Today's NDP Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs was yesterday's NDP minister when the fiasco around the Crocus Fund happened, and his government sat by and did nothing to protect the shareholders or the taxpayers of Manitoba. Once again, Mr. Speaker, this minister has thrown integrity out the window in his handling of Waverley West. How can this minister stand up with a straight face and say that he has no conflict or no bias?

Will he today stand up and do the right thing and commit to selling the land to remove himself from the conflict of being landowner, developer and regulator? Hon. Scott Smith (Minist er of Intergovernmental Affairs and Trade): Mr. Speaker, one thing about this side of the government is the integrity that we display in every issue we address. When we go back to the nineties and we start to talk about integrity or lack thereof, as has been identified in many cases, we can go back to MTS. We can go back to many issues that were dealt with through the nineties. Mr.

Speaker, this process has been followed to the letter by the department. Certainly, the integrity has been followed by my office. It has been followed by a level of government that we, quite frankly, have a great deal of faith in, which is the City of Winnipeg. The City of Winnipeg had referred it to our office. I tend to trust the City of Winnipeg and the information that they displayed to me. The member opposite may not trust the integrity of the City of Winnipeg. This side respects them; we trust them. The information and process were followed to the letter. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.

Speaker's Ruling Mr. Speaker: I have a ruling for the House. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Following the calling of Orders of the Day and the announcement of House business by the honourable Government House Leader (Mr. Mackintosh), on April 13, 2005, the honourable Member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) rose on an alleged matter of privilege regarding the calling of government business.

The honourable Member for Inkster asserted that the fact that the Government House Leader had called bills for debate instead of the consideration of departmental Estimates was a breach of the privileges of the members of the House and impacted on the ability of members to do their jobs and to hold the government accountable. He concluded his remarks by moving "THAT this matter of privilege which concerns the unorthodox way of government be referred to the Standing Committee on Legislative Affairs." I took the matter under advisement in order to consult the procedural authorities.

There are two conditions that must be satisfied in order for the matter raised to be ruled in order as a prima facie case of privilege. First, was the issue raised at the earliest op portunity, and second, has sufficient evidence been provided to demonstrate that the privileges of the House have been breached, in order to warrant putting the matter to the House. Regarding the first condition, the honourable Member for Inkster asserted that he was raising the matter at the earliest opportunity, and I accept the word of the honourable member.

Regarding the second condition, whether there is sufficient evidence that the privileges of the House

April 21, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1685 have been breached, it is important to determine whether parliamentary privilege has been breached in the actions complained of. Joseph Maingot, in the second edition of the Parliamentary Privilege in Canada , states on pages 13 and 14, "while it will be seen that the member enjoys all immunity necessary to perform his parliamentary work, this privilege or right, such as freedom of speech, is nevertheless subject to the practices and procedures of the House.

Thus, allegations of breach of privilege by a Member in the House of Commons that amount to complaints about procedures and practices in the House are by their very nature matters of order." He also states on page 223 of the same edition, "A breach of the Standing Orders or a failure to follow an established practice would invoke a point of order rather than a question of privilege." In addition, Speaker Rocan ruled on March 12, 1993, that a matter concerning the methods by which the House proceeds in the conduct of business is a matter of order, not privilege.

On this basis, I would therefore respectfully rule that the matter raised does not fulfil the criteria for a prima facie case of privilege. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Springfield, on a point of order? Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. Bill 10 was debated, moved through second reading, moved through committee, moved through third reading and given royal assent in a very short period of time. This Prem ier (Mr. Doer) said the opposition was stalling Bill 10. Now, we see that Bill 10 is stalled in proclamation, as regulations are not done.

This Premier misled Manitobans on his radio show. He owes all Manitobans an apology. He owes the opposition an apology because the bill is stalled because of regulations. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Points of order are to be used to point out to the Speaker a breach of a rule or a procedure of the House, not to be used for debate. The honourable member does not have a point of order. I will leave it at that. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Official Opposition Government House Leader, on a new point of order? Mr. Leonard Derkach (Official Opposition House Leader): Well, Mr.

Speaker, then, on a new point of order. The member from Spri ngfield raised the issue as a point of order because the Premier of our province misled, not only the province, but misled this House in his remarks that he made on public radio. That is the point of order, Mr. Speaker. The point of order is not that Bill 10 has not been proclaimed. It is the effect as a result of the Premier's misleading Manitobans and misleading this House. That is the point of order. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order.

On a point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House L eader, I have dealt with that point already under my previous ruling so he does not have a point of order. * * * Mr. Speaker: The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on a new point of order. Mr. Derkach: No, Mr. Speaker. With the greatest of respect, I have to challenge your ruling. * (14:30) Voice Vote Mr. Speaker: Order. The ruling of the Chair has been challenged. All those in favour of the ruling, say yea. Some Honourable Members: Yea. Mr. Speaker: All those opposed to the ruling, say nay. Some Honourable Members: Nay. Mr.

Speaker: In my opinion, the Yeas have it.

1686 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 2005 Formal Vote Mr. Derkach: A recorded vote, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: A recorded vote having been requested, call in the members. * (15:00) Mr. Speaker: The question before the House is shall the ruling of the Chair be sustained. All those in favour of sustaining the ruling of the Chair, please rise.

Division A RECORDED VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: Yeas Aglugub, Allan, Altemeyer, Ashton, Bjornson, Brick, Caldwell, Chomiak, Dewar, Doer, Irvin-Ross, Jennissen, Jha, Korzeniowski, Lathlin, Lemieux, Mackintosh, Maloway, Martindale, McGifford, Melnick, Nevakshonoff, Oswald, Reid, Rondeau, Sale, Santos, Schellenberg, Selinger, Smith, Struthers, Swan, Wowchuk. Nays Cullen, Cummings, Derkach, Driedger, Dyck, Eichler, Gerrard, Goertzen, Hawranik, Lamoureux, Loewen, Mitchelson, Murray, Reimer, Rocan, Rowat, Schuler, Stefanson, Taillieu. Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): Yeas 33, Nays 19. Mr.

Speaker: The ruling of the Chair has been sustained. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Volunteer Service Awards Ms. Kerri Irvin-Ross (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, last night I attended the Volunteer Centre of Winnipeg's annual Volunteer Week Awards Dinner where outstanding Manitoban's were recognized for their dedication to community service. Volunteers were recognized with the Premier's Volunteer Service Award, the Lieutenant-G overnor's Make a Difference Community Award, the Mayor's Volunteer Service Award and various other honours. Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to say that Mr.

Bob Thompson, a resident of Fort Garry, was awarded a Premier's Volunteer Service Award for 2005. At dinner I was thrilled to learn about Mr. Thompson and about his volunteer work with many local community groups. Bob Thompson was nominated for his award by the Manitoba association for multicultural education. As president of this group, Mr. Thompson has played a key role in organizing Inspiring Minds, a youth symposium on the education profession, in February 2004. With the support of the Black History Month committee, the symposium highlighted teaching as a viable career for Manitoba's black youth.

This symposium was a large succe ss. Hoping to duplicate this success, organizers will focus on integrating youth from different ethnic backgrounds in the future. Mr. Speaker, the Premier's Volunteer Service Awards recognize how volunteers touch many difference aspects of our li ves. The award is broken down into three categories. These include awards for individual volunteers, youth and community groups. This year there were 10 recipients for this award. Recipients include a range of people and groups from both rural and urban communities in Manitoba. I want to congratulate Mr.

Bob Thompson for receiving the Premier's Volunteer Service Award for 2005. Since this week is National Volunteer Week, I also want to congratulate all other award recipients and volunteers for their dedication. They are an inspiration for us all. Canadian Oncology Nursing Week Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to recognize and celebrate the second annual Canadian Oncology Nursing Week. Events throughout this week have focussed on the theme, Speak-up! Be an Advocate, which signifies the strong influential voices of patients, families and oncology nurses.

The Canadian Association of Nurses in Oncology was established in 1984 to support the

April 21, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1687 efforts of Canadian nurses in promoting and developing excellence in oncology nursing practice, education and research. CANO is a dynamic organization recognized locally, provincially, nationally and internationally as a voice for Canadian oncology nurses. Events and promotions throughout this week provide a prime opportunity to raise public awareness of the work of oncology nurses, to recognize the accomplishments of those on the front lines and to speak up about cancer care in Canada and Manitoba.

On behalf of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, I would like to ex tend my sincere thanks and admiration to those oncology nurses on the front lines in Manitoba as well as to all health care workers and Manitobans involved in the fight against cancer. It is because of your determination and hard work that, every day, we come one step closer to a cure. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. * (15:10) Brandon Wheat Kings Mr. Drew Caldwell (Brandon East): Mr.

Speaker, along with my colleague from Brandon West it gives me great pleasure to rise in the House today to bring attention to and applaud the Brandon Wheat Kings who yesterday evening advanced to the Western Hockey League's Eastern Conference final with a 3 to 1 victory over the Calgary Hitmen. The victory completed a miraculous comeback in which the Wheat Kings rallied from a three-games-to-one deficit to win a hard-fought seven game series. The Wheat Kings faced a lot of turmoil in this series. They lost 10 to 1 in the opening game and dropped back-to-back games in Calgary.

The Wheat Kings were forced to rally again last night, scoring all three of their goals in the third period. The comeback is a testament to the character and determination of the Wheat Kings. I, along with all citizens of Brandon, am very proud of the Wheat Kings effort. Throughout the playoffs the city of Brandon stood behind their team and supported them admirably. Last night the Keystone Centre was packed by over 5950 boisterous fans, which set a franchise record for attendance at the Keystone Centre. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate all the Wheat Kings players and coaches on their accomplishment. I would also like to wish them the best of luck when they face the Prince Albert Raiders in game one of the conference championship final Friday night at the Keystone Centre. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Volunteer Service Awards Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, volunteers are a vital part of our community. They spend countless unpaid hours aiding a variety of worthy causes.

Last night it was my pleasure to attend the Lieutenant-Governor's Make a Difference Community Awards which honoured many volunteers from Manitoba. I would like to sincerely thank those individuals, but also the volunteers who are too numerous to mention. From the Lakeside constituency Gayleen and Alan Nixon of Stonewall were recognized for a combined 60 years of volunteer experience. Between them was 22 years individu ally spent assisting the Stonewall Christmas Cheer Board.

In the youth category, Rachel Borkowsky of Teulon was acknowledged for her leadership in beginning the Teulon Breakfast Club and additional volunteer contributions to Teulon Collegiate in her community. Mr. Speaker, I cannot emphasize enough the importance of volunteers and non-profit organizations. They touch every aspect of our lives. Volunteers provide priceless services for schools, youth organizations, hospitals, foundations that fund disease research, the environment, animal welfare, the arts and a broad range of other deserving causes. Once again, I commend these selfless people.

I urge my fellow colleagues and Manitobans to take time to volunteer throughout the year. We may not find answers to all the problems in life, but think of the positive impact that even a few hours of volunteering can make. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Earth Day Mr. Rob Altemeyer (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, tomorrow is April 22, and I will be 1 of over 6 million Canadians and 500 million people worldwide celebrating Earth Day. I am pleased to share today

1688 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 2005 just a few of the green highlights from my riding that demonstrate how our government and local citizens are working together to ensure that every day is Earth Day. In the neighbourhoods of Wolseley, West Broadway and Spence, citi zens are keenly antici- pating the annual community cleanups and the beginning of garden season. With support from our government's Neighbourhoods Alive! Program, more community garden plots a nd parks are now available and local organic food is being provided to low- income inner city residents.

Residents of Wolseley have also voted to allocate money provided by our government's Building Communities initiative into several environmental projects. These include improved riverbank stabilization, enhanced river access and the elimination of dangerous mosquito breeding habitat through better drainage in public areas. Mr. Speaker, the environmental concerns of Manitoba's citizens were also reflected in our most recent provincial budget.

Public transit in Winnipeg, Brandon, Thompson and Flin Flon received a 15% funding increase, and our budget also established new crop insurance protection for organic farmers along with a parallel commitment to develop a new organic food strategy for our province. In conclusion, environmental leadership by our citizens and our government is easy to find. Working together, Canada's largest wind farm is now under construction in Manitoba, and we are also leaders in the country for geothermal installations and energy efficiency. Mr.

Speaker, I am very proud to be part of a community and of a government which is working so hard to ensure the health of our communities and of our home, planet Earth. Thank you very much. GRIEVANCES Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Springfield, on a grievance? Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Yes, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I stand on a grievance today on an issue that is very important to tens of thousands of Manitobans. It relates back to the Premier (Mr. Doer) misleading the public on a radio show.

I am deeply saddened by what we have seen, and I would like to lay out the case for this House and for all Manitobans which shows how much this Premier has let down not just the seniors in this province, how much he has let down not just the people of Manitoba, but he has also let down this Chamber. I choose my words carefully although I would probably lean more toward what the member from Tuxedo, her language that she used earlier on, but I understand that that is not the kind of language that we are allowed to use in this House.

So I will use the word "mislead." I would like to go back to a radio show of April 12, 2005, that the Premier had, and I would like to actually read the offending part of that radio show. We have got the Premier saying, "I have got Jean on the line," and then Jean says, "I am calling on behalf of seniors. I would like to know if you got a chance to look into and come back with what the locked-in private pension plan is like. You were going to let us know on the next show." The Premier answers, "Yes, we did bring in a law in December in the Legislature.

It has not been passed by the opposition parties." What this Premier (Mr. Doer) did not tell Manitobans, what this Premier did not tell Jean, what this Premier has neglected to tell people, Mr. Speaker, is that it was introduced about December 8. The minister spoke on it December 9, and the House recessed on December 10. We then came back in for a spring session, and the budget was introduced, and during that budget period we actually do not have an opportunity to speak to legislation. So, at the point in time when this Premier had his radio show, we did not have an opportunity to even speak to the legislation.

For the Premier to say, and I quote again, "It has not been passed by the opposition parties," that, Mr. Speaker, is the first one, the first mi struth, and, for that, if I would point people in Manitoba, if I would point to members of this House, if they would look at the Standing Committee on Human Resources where John Klassen gets up, and he says categorically, from that radio show, that the Premier should apologize to those individuals who had called in for what he said on that radio show. I cannot use the language that the member from Tuxedo used, and I am controlling myself that I do

April 21, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1689 not use that kind of language because it is unparliamentary, but I think that is so bad, that he would go on a radio show and try to convince these people that somehow they are sitting waiting for their pensions to be unlocked, for them to get some pension freedom, and that it is the opposition that is holding it back, which was not true and he knew it. That is point No. 1.

I would like to move on to point No. 2, and, by the way, I suggest to members in this House they get the transcript from the radi o station and read through more of what the Premier has to say. But there is no reason why this legislation would not be passed in the next six weeks, no reason at all. * (15:20) Well, Mr. Speaker, there is a reason, and we found out today what the reason is. We found out, and I point members, again, to a document that was presented in this House. It is called standing committee–sorry, debates and procedures, official Hansard report, Wednesday, April 20, 2005.

I would point individuals to, please, page 1651. Oh, my goodness, Mr. Speaker, Royal Assent was given to Bill 10. The Conservative opposition, members of the Liberal Party, got together. We debated it. We debated it through second reading, passed it on to committee. We sat at committee, heard presentations, passed it from committee on to third reading, debated it at third reading, passed it on to Royal Assent. Now it has got Royal Assent, and let us hear what the Premier (Mr.

Doer) had to say on the radio, "It has not been passed by the opposition parties." Now we find out, after Royal Assent, it is going to sit on the Order Paper because it is not going to get proclamation. An Honourable Member: Why? Mr. Schuler: Why? Because, Mr. Speaker, the regulations are not done, regulations written by the government, written by this Premier's ministers and his departments. Mr. Speaker, this Premier knew at that point in time that the bill could not go any further because the regulations would not be done till the end of June.

That is the kind of thing that brings out a lot of passion in members. That is why members in this Chamber get up and afterward have to apologize because they showed so much passion. We are sick and tired of the Premier going out in public and saying whatever he wants, as if he has immunity, whether it is true, whether it is not true. I say to you, Mr. Speaker, by and large, it is not true. That makes us so terribly upset that he will not tell the truth to Manitobans of what actually was going on.

To somehow indicate that this member, I, representing Springfield, that I would hold back a piece of legislation that I have fought for, for three years, when this government would not even look at it, would not even open up the door to the seniors, would not open the door to anybody. I stood in this House and fought for it, along with the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Murray) and members from the Conservative Party. We stood here and we fought and we fought and we fought, and then the Premier gets up and says that somehow we are stalling the bill when he does not even have the regulations done. Shame on him.

If we show passion on this issue, and if we show that we are upset about this, Mr. Speaker, it is rightfully so. Rightfully so. I have gone through the hallways and spoken to various media members, and I have said, "Enough is enough is enough." We have put up with that for six years. Six years we have had to tolerate that.

We have had to tolerate where the Premier goes on a radio station and says, "Oh, it is not us holding up," knowing full well that the regulations were not done, knowing full well that it was introduced at the dying end of a session in December, knowing full well that it could not be debated during the budget debate, knowing full well that we wanted to get up and debate it, and it was his incompetent government that did not get it in sooner.

He knew all of that, and then goes on a radio station and misleads hardworking Manitobans who, in their retirement years, would like to have a little bit of their pension money. What is wrong with that? Why would you then, on top of that, mislead them to somehow believe something that is not true? Mr. Speaker, I have worked very, very hard on this issue, along with the six heroes, and I will never give a speech without mentioning their names. Once again: Chuck Cruden, Brian Peto, John Klassen,

1690 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 2005 Peter and Sabina Long, and Audri Wilkinson. They worked hard. I can remember how many times we sat in my little office downstairs on the main floor. It was hot, stuffy in summer, and we decided what our next strategy was going to be, what we were going to do next, to try to further the issues of seniors, because this is a big issue. It is a big issue. You know what, Mr. Speaker? I have learned something over the years, being an employer. There are a lot of things that you can joke about with your employees.

There are a lot of things you can joke about with people, but you never, ever joke about a person's paycheque. When people retire, they do not appreciate this government reaching out a little bit of something in the legislation and quickly pulling it back, and stretching it out again and quickly pulling it back, and then saying it is the opposition that is doing it. They, the seniors, will not look kindly upon this. I hope members opposite will be ready someday in two to three years, when we go door to door.

We will take this issue to their door and say, "Do you remember how the NDP, the Premier himself, played you for a fool?" Remember that, remember that. Then it gets Royal Assent, and then you figure it out. Then, oh, my goodness, we did not get the regulations done. How did that escape the Premier and his seven dwarfs? How did that happen? Mr. Speaker, I withdraw that. Mr. Speaker, the Premier and his members opposite should have known the regulations need to be done before the bill could even go anywhere. That is so uncalled for. Will we go into Rossmere and point that out to seniors?

Absolutely, and all the other members, we will go out and point out the fact that it took three years and then this government still– An Honourable Member: Do not forget Fort Garry and St. Norbert. Mr. Schuler: Fort Garry, St. Norbert, St. Vital, Seine River, on and on and on, Gimli and all the rest of them. We will, with credibility, say to Manitobans, say to seniors how this government consistently betrays them and play them for the fool. That is what is unfortunate. You know, we have heard it time and time again. It is the Conservative Party that stands up for the little man and woman.

It is the Conservative Party that stands up for the middle class. This is important for the middle class. This was important for the Manitoba Society of Seniors. This was important for the credit unions. This was important for the co-ops. Everybody who has a defined contribution plan is very interested. Whether they wanted to withdraw it or not, whether they wanted to do it today or tomorrow, they want that opportunity. They want the opportunity to access those funds. Maybe in the future, maybe next week, but at least they know they are able to access it. I know for a fact, Mr.

Speaker, that there are men and women right now who are waiting for this to be proclaimed. They are waiting for it to be proclaimed because they would like to access their money, and not because of the frivolous arguments that the Member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) put on the record that they are going to buy a cottage. Not for those reasons because some of them are having a tough time paying for the medication. Some of them are having a tough time making ends meet. Some of them are having difficult times in other areas.

We have seen time and time again the Minister of Family Services does not have the courtesy to meet people that sit in the gallery. For two hours the woman had to sit up there and cry because the minister did not have the shame, the forewithal, to go and at least comfort that individual, at least go and speak to that individual. Well, we did. We went to seniors. We listened to them. We heard what they had to say. We trust them. We believe in the individual. We know those men and women who worked for 20, 25, up to 30 years, worked hard, put aside their pension, they can be trusted.

Just because they are retired does not mean that somehow, all of a sudden they lose all their common sense. Far from it, they are just as good the day before they retire as they are the day after they retire. I would point out to members opposite, they have tried this frivolous argument about women and 80 percent of the women that were asking for this were women. Women want this government to know they do not need Big Brother looking over their shoulder telling them how they should or should not deal with their money. They do not need a socialist government with its big fist on them.

April 21, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1691 Mr. Speaker, I grieve today because the Premier misled me, this Chamber, Manitobans and, in particular, all those seniors on two points. He went on the radio and said the Tories were holding up this bill, and the bill is now sitting because there are no regulations. Both counts, the Premier is down and he should do the right thing. He should be a man. Stand up and apologize to everybody for what he did. * (15:30) Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Southdale, on a grievance? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr.

Jack Reimer (Southdale): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think it has been pointed out a few times by you that a grievance is a very serious matter. It is not taken lightly by not only you but the members in the House. I have never had the opportunity to stand up on a grievance. It is something I felt, you know, at no time there were a lot of things that happened that deserved comment, but this is something that I think has meant so much to so many people here in Manitoba, especially the seniors. The reason I stood up on the grievance, Mr.

Speaker, is the fact that I have had the opportunity to be involved with the seniors community for quite a few years, as not only th e minister responsible for seniors when we were in government but also as the critic under the previous government in response to seniors. So have I had the opportunity to meet with a lot of seniors over the years. I have had the opportunity to attend a lot of functions with a lot of seniors, participate in a lot of groups and discussions, comments and things like that in regards to seniors.

So it is something I feel that I should comment on in regard to this bill because it sort of puts a light on the government in the sense that they can make statements, they can make accusations, they can point fingers, and then when the so-called chickens come home to roost, they are shown to be of a different nature. I talk about, in particular, the town hall or the open-line radio that the First Minister was on with the radio station, CJOB, here in Winnipeg. Mr. Speaker, the Premier (Mr. Doer) is the Premier for all of Manitoba. He is elected. He is the Premier representing Manitoba.

He represents Manitoba in various national fronts and in the province of Manitoba. There is a fair amount of respect and dignity that goes with that position. He is held accountable, which he should be. He has mentioned, himself, that the buck stops at his desk. He has also said that the truth shall hear you out. He has a lot of platitudes that he surrounds himself with when he is talking, not only on the radio but in his speeches, of his positions. He made it very clear when he was on the radio show that day, on April 12. There was a phone-in about Bill 10 as to why it had not passed and everything.

He blatantly said that it was being held up, it was not being passed by the opposition party. Mr. Speaker, that was totally misrepresenting the facts. The bill, as was mentioned by my colleague from Springfield, was introduced December 8. The House rose on December 9. It is up to the House leader to call the bills when we are in session. It is the government that controls the agenda. It is the Government House Leader that calls the bills. The bill had not been called, so we were not in a position to debate it. We were not in a position to pass it until the bill was called.

The Premier then goes on the radio and says that we will pass it as soon as the opposition parties bring it forth. It had not been brought forth. The lady was asking questions and she said, "When will it come into effect?" The Premier says, "Well, as soon as it passes, it will come into effect." Well, Mr. Speaker, you saw that there was a willingness of the House to bring forth the bill the other day. It went through the various stages. It went through the report stage. It went through the first, second, third readings.

Everything was accomplished in a very short time because there was a willingness of the House to make it happen. We recognized that this was very, very important to a lot of people, a lot of people that have their earnings locked in a defined contribution plan and want to have access to this money. We recognized that, and we had a lot of people pressuring us in regards to delegations and meetings. We met with a lot of groups. As I mentioned, we met with the MSOS group.

We met with the co-op movement, a lot of people involved with that sector, and they are very, very concerned about moving some sort of legislation on.

1692 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 2005 We had wanted more in the sense of latitude in the bill. The Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler) actually introduced another bill, a bill called 212. I believe it was 212. It was very similar to what they passed in Saskatchewan, where Saskatchewan gave access to the people with a defined contribution plan that they could access 100 percent of their plan.

There was a concern expressed by the government that they were concerned that maybe this was opening it up too much, and the fact that the seniors were accessing this money might take it all and add a further burden onto the taxpayer in the sense that they may have to look for some sort of social assistance because they had taken all their money. Mr. Speaker, it has not come about, the promises have gone down this route. They have not found problems. They have not seen any kind of difficulties with this. It was something we felt that maybe Manitoba and this government should pursue.

They instead brought in their own bill, which is Bill 10. It was a half measure in a sense, but it is like anything, you take half a loaf and you go on. You hope that maybe there will be a change somewhere down the line where it will be of more benefit. We were satisfied with what Bill 10 represented. We were in agreement that we would pass it and it did pass. We were very, very satisfied with that. In fact, Mr. Speaker, as you recall, we had Royal Assent. The Lieutenant-Governor came in and we had Royal Assent on the bill. We thought, well, there it is.

It is ready for the people to access their plans and their monies. Now, we find out that the regulations have not even been looked at, or they have not even been brought forth. The bill is going to sit on the shelf in a sense, not being of any effect until possibly the end of June. This is what we have heard. Now if the regulations are not in place by the end of June, it may go into a different sector of the counter. It may be longer, we do not know. We only know now that the bill, as we passed it, is not in effect in a sense that it becomes available for the people to access their retirement monies.

So, this is of great disappointment, not only to us, but I think to thousands of people that were waiting for this to come in to effect. I am sure there were some that were quite pleased and quite happy that they could do some definitive planning of some of their monies. I am sure some of them looked at what they could do for possibly paying off some bills, or maybe some medical problems that they have to go out of province for because they cannot access here because the waiting lists are too long. These are some of the things that a lot of the seniors look at very, very seriously.

Unfortunately, they may have to use some of this money if they are talking about getting their money so they can access proper health care. This is one of the reasons why we were very, very disappointed. This is why the opposition are upset. The opposition is upset because they feel they should be given the opportunity to speak. I am sure that some of my colleagues in the backbench for the government will be speaking because I can hear them chirping in the background that they want to speak soon.

I am not too sure whether they have a grievance on this too, but I am certain there are some of the backbenchers there as they grieve on the back and behind me. They want to get up and speak too, because they are concerned about it. You have representatives that have a lot of seniors in their area like the Member for Rossmere (Mr. Schellenberg). He has a lot of seniors. I know he is very concerned about this, very upset. I hear him in the background saying that he is mad about this. So I feel his grievance will be coming up soon too, maybe some other members because it is something that they worked very hard for.

Mr. Speaker, you must remember this was a unanimous bill. I would think that if it was a unanimous bill, you have other people in the Chamber that are very, very concerned it has not been passed. It is something that I think the seniors are looking at in a very serious manner. I am surprised that some of the backbenchers on the government side are not getting up and reprimanding the minister for not having the bill in order because it was debated, it was brought forth. The people in the House here were ready for it. The Premier (Mr.

Doer) had said that it would come into effect as soon as it was passed. * (15:40) I would think that is the message that a lot of the backbenchers in the NDP now have to go back into their constituencies and say, "Well, our Premier may not have been totally within the realm of saying the truth." The old adage that I used one time that the

April 21, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1693 Premier may have "pretzelized" the situation. There is a way to bend the truth, I bet you know, Mr. Speaker. I know that I am treading on very delicate words there, and I appreciate your patience on that, but I just point it out because I think it is very important that the people of Manitoba, the seniors of Manitoba, are aware that all efforts were made in this House, all members, a unanimous vote was made on this bill. It is not just the opposition that is concerned about this, everyone is.

So I speak for the government too, because I am sure that they are concerned and they believ e in it. Some of their members may not be able to stand up, because they knew that. I am positive that it was a unanimous motion, so that I feel that our side that is getting up to speak on it, the Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler), myself, do convey a lot of the feelings that are expressed by a lot of the members in the House here that they are concerned. The regulations should ha ve been looked at. The Premier knew that the bill was going to be passed. He had advocated it.

He was out main-streeting for it, if you want to call it, on the radio, telling the people that we are holding it up. We took up the challenge. We took him to task. We passed it in a very speedy motion and now it is sitting, because the minister, and I do not blame the minister, I think it is the Premier who got ahead of the cart, and all of a sudden now, the bill is sitting there. It is very ironic that we have to stand here and remind the First Minister that a lot of the things that he can go forth with and just talk about in a sort of a flippant manner come back to haunt you.

I know that there are a lot of, possibly, other members here that are waiting to grieve, but it is a very serious matter, in the sense that the monies that are available through the defined-contribution plan are something that a lot of the seniors lobbied for. I know that I mentioned some of the groups. I just have to mention the MSOS, Mr. Chuck Cruden, who approached me not only this year or last year about it. I believe he talked to me quite a bit about this in other areas when we were part of government and I was the minister, where there was various correspondence and conversations regarding the pension.

I realize, and I repeat myself by saying, that a grievance is a very serious matter. It is something that, I must say, this is my first grievance in a sense, but it is a very important one, because I feel that it is something that should be put on the record in regard to what the Premier says and what he does and what the end product is. It is something that I think the people of Manitoba, especially the seniors, are being short-changed on, something that is very significant and very important affair for their way of life. With that, Mr. Speaker, I thank you very much for your time and your indulgence.

ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS House Business Hon. Steve Ashton (Deputy Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I would like to, first of all, announce that the Standing Committee on Legislative Affairs will be meeting on Monday, April 25, at 6:30 p.m., to deal with the following bills: Bill 12, The Liquor Control Amendment Act; Bill 13, The Milk Prices Review Amendment Act; and Bill 23, The Workplace Safety and Health Amendment Act (Needles in Medical Workplaces).

Would you also please s ee if there is agreement from the House for the three sections of the Committee of Supply to sit in Estimates this afternoon but not tomorrow morning? Would you also see if there is agreement that for Wednesday, April 27, and Wednesday, May 4, two sections of the Committee of Supply will meet in the committee rooms while the House considers bills, with the understanding that there are to be no quorum calls? My understanding is that this has been discussed by the House leaders. Mr.

Speaker: It has been announced that the Standing Committee of Legislative Affairs will meet on Monday, April 25, at 6:30 p.m., to deal with the following bills: Bill 12, The Liquor Control Amendment Act; Bill 13, The Milk Prices Review Amendment Act; Bill 23, The Workplace Safety and Health Amendment Act (Needles in Medical Workplaces). Also, is there agreement from the House for the three sections of the Committee of Supply to sit in

1694 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 2005 Estimates this afternoon but not tomorrow morning? [Agreed] Is there agreement for Wednesday, April 27, and Wednesday, May 4, that two sections of the Committee of Supply will meet in the committee rooms while the House considers bills, with the understanding that there are to be no quorum calls? [Agreed] Mr. Ashton: By agreement, Mr. Speaker, could you please call Supply motion? Mr. Speaker: The House will now resolve into Committee of Supply. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) HEALTH * (15:50) Mr.

Chairperson (H arry Schellenberg): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. I have a ruling for the committee. During global questions in the Department of Health on April 18, 2005, the honourable Member for Tuxedo (Mrs. Stefanson) stated that the honourable Minister of Health knowingly provided false numbers to this House and to the committee in last year's Estimates. The honourable Minister of Health (Mr. Sale) raised a point of order suggesting that this language was unparliamentary. The honourable Member for Tuxedo also spoke to the point of order.

I took the matter under advisement to review Hansard before providing a ruling for the committee. The words "false information" have been the subject of interventions by Supply Chairpersons a number of times in the last 15 years. Cautions were given by Supply Chairpersons regarding the words "false information" on April 27, 1992, and September 10, 2003, while Supply Chairpersons ruled the same words unparliamentary on May 5, 1992, and June 13, 1994. Additionally– An Honourable Member: Mr. Chairman, ask the member to sit during the ruling. An Honourable Member: Oh, sorry. Mr.

Chairperson: Additionally, in the House, on March 14, 1990, Speaker Rocan ruled the phrase, "deliberately putting false information on the record" as unparliamentary. As ruled on page 526 of the House of Commons Procedure and Practice , "When considering questions of language, the context of remarks in committee and the effects on proceedings must be taken into account." In reviewing these and othe r rulings, I note the words and phrases which imply the House or committee has been deliberately misled or deliberately provided with inaccurate or incorrect information have consistently been ruled unparliamentary.

In consideration of all these factors, I rule that the words "knowingly provided false numbers" are unparliamentary. I would ask that the honourable Member for Tuxedo please withdraw them. Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): That is fine. I withdraw them. Mr. Chairperson: I thank the member. * * * Mr. Chairperson: This

section of the Committee of Supply, meeting in Room 254, will now resume consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Health. As had been previously agreed, questioning for this department will follow in a global manner. The floor is now open for questions. Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Health): The member asked certain questions in the previous sitting, and I have some information for her. She asked about Marj Watts and her previous work and her current role. Marj Watts is currently the executive director of the Policy and Planning branch.

She has been with the department for 20 years and has held numerous managerial positions, including executive director of mental health, provincial health reform co-ordinator, director, inter- and intra-departmental management, and director of corporate services. Prior to Health, she worked for Family Services and held the position of provincial program co-ordinator, regional program co-ordinator for community services. Her current portfolio within Health includes responsibility for community acute and long-term

April 21, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1695 care planning, strategic planning and emerging issues, Protection for Pers ons in Care office, Web services, residential charges and the correspondence unit. That is that piece. The member also asked for where prior staff members that had been in the Department of Health, the minister's office, are now. The answer is that Jean-Guy Bougeois works in the Central Policy Branch of government, as does Alissa Brandt. Jeff Sulymka is a special assistant to the Minister of Energy, Science and Technology (Mr. Chomiak). Chad Samain is no longer working in government.

Larissa Ashdown is the special assistant to Conservation Minister Stan Struthers. The member also asked for a list of board members of the various RHAs and where they lived. I think, rather than read this into the record, I will just give the member from Turtle Mountain the list. I believe it was he who asked for that list, and there is a copy for the Clerk. * (16:00) Additionally, the members asked for medical officers of health positions and the number vacant. I am glad to see this is of such interest to the members.

The name of the medical officer of health in Assiniboine and Brandon is Doctor Weiss, Doctor Clearsky in Burntwood, Doctor Buchan in Central, Doctor Gessell at NOR-MAN in Churchill, Doctor Hilderman in Interlake–the North Eastman position is currently vacant and be ing recruited for–Doctor Johnston in Parkland and Doctor Roberts in South Eastman. In Winnipeg, there are five, some part-time: Doctors Fast, Harlos, Plourde, Cook and Kurbis.

Doctor Routledge is a general assignment to Water as a medical officer of health responsible for water quality; Doctor Cleary for emergency preparedness, Doctor Kettner is the chief of the program, and Doctor Roberecki. I have those names and their assignments for the Clerk and for the critic. In addition, the members asked for a list of secondments, and there ar e two. They asked for secondments to and secondments from, and I would like to just in providing this information, Mr.

Chairman, tell the members that secondments inside government and between government related authorities are common and have been common for as long as there have been secondments. They were certainly common when I worked in government in the eighties and, in fact, in the seventies when I was with the Social Planning Council. We had government staff seconded to the Planning Council for various amounts of work. [interjection] Well, the member has got a lot of comments to make. She asked for information. I am giving her the information. If she does not want information, she should not ask for it.

The secondments to the Department of Health from a variety of places, there are a total of 13, a variety of positions as the member will see, mostly from WRHA, but some from Seven Oaks, Holy Family, Addictions Foundation and Manitoba Labour and Immigration. Then there are secondments from the Department of Health to places, four of them to WRHA, to the health reform working committee, to Community Economic Development Committee, to Health Canada, a couple to the floodway expansion, and three to Manitoba Family Services and Housing. I have copies of these for the members and for the Clerk.

I am always pleased to provide information, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. Mr. Chairperson: I thank the minister for that. The floor is open for questions. Mrs. Stefanson: I have some questions for the Minister of Health concerning the Selkirk Mental Health Centre. Back on September 20 of 2001, the Minister of Health at the time had indicated how poor the conditions were at Selkirk Mental Health Centre.

He said, and I quote, "I think I have always felt that the facilities are terrible." He goes on to say, "Well, as I have said, I consider myself, I could not spend a day in those dorms, and I cannot see how someone who has difficulty and requires to be healed can spend time in those dorms and possibly be healed." He goes on to say, "I mean, there is excellent staff there, but the facilities are terrible." The minister goes on to say in the same interview that, and I quote again, "Selkirk is going to be redeveloped, and there is money in this year's budget." Can I ask the Minister of Health, that was back on September 20 of 2001, was there actually money in the budget for this project back then?

1696 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 2005 Mr. Sale: If the critic would be interested, I could certainly, if she has not do ne so, arrange for her to tour the centre. I am not sure whether she has or not. Could I just ask whether she has? Mrs. Stefanson: I have not, as of yet, had the opportunity to tour the facilities, but I do have a constituent whose mother is there, who is extremely concerned. We have expressed this to the minister in the past. So I would like if the minister could please answer the question. Mr.

Sale: I was simply offering the opportunity for the member, if she would like, to have our staff arrange for her to have a full visit to the centre and see the facilities. It is, to say the least, for the most part, an antiquated facility. The only one that is really up to modern standards is the forensic unit that is relatively newly renovated to a pretty high standard. The member is absolutely right that the staff is extremely dedicated and very creative in their use of outmoded space.

I think that the member would have the same feeling that I have about Selkirk, and that is that it absolutely must be in process of redevelopment. When I was there in, was it January that we were there, or was it February? I cannot remember which, January or February. We looked at the functional plan for the redevelopment, and the most recent action that I can tell you is that on June 25 of 2004 there was a commitment of $22 million to the redevelopment of the initial piece of Selkirk which will be a new structure built on, essentially, an open part of the campus.

If the member has not been there, it is a very large, almost like a university-type of campus with a very large green space, a lot of outbuildings. It used to have a full farm. It used to be actually self- sufficient for food. So there is lots of open space to allow for the development of this new facility, and I was able to see the work that has been done. Our Assistant Deputy Minister Marcia Thompson, who is with us here, it is her area of responsibility in terms of facilitating the planning.

We hope to get this year to the stage of working drawings so that we can get this project into the ground and out of the ground. I completely concur with my former colleagues, the former minister, my colleagues' comments about the inadequacy of the facility, and that is why we are redeveloping it. Mrs. Stefanson: Well, I would suggest to the minister that actions speak louder than words, and when they promised back in 2001 in September, on a radio show, he said, "Selkirk is going to be redeveloped and there is money in this year's budget," clearly there was not and, again, a false statement out there.

Then again in September of '03, the Minister of Health said at the time he should be ready in the next couple of months– Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. I would like to take a moment to caution all honourable members on their language here, including today. While I recognize at times that discussions in committee can become heated, I ask members to keep their remarks tempered and worthy of this Assembly and the office that we all hold. Thank you. Mrs. Stefanson: Well, I guess the truth hurts, Mr. Chair. In any event we will go on and, again, in a Winnipeg Free Press

article dated Saturday, September 20 of '03, the minister said at the time he should be ready in the next couple of months to announce a major renovation of the Selkirk Mental Health Centre. Again, that was back in September 20 of '03, and a couple of months came and went and nothing took place. I would ask the minister, I would suggest quite frankly that we have brought this issue forward several times before, and, clearly, the Minister of Health is not taking this situation very seriously, despite what his words are and what he says.

As I said before, actions speak much louder than words, and I think Manitobans recognize that and certainly my constituent recognizes that. While her mother is sitting there in these horrible broken down facilities, she wants some answers from this government as to when they can expect this to take place. Empty announcements and empty news releases are not action, Mr. Chair, and I would suggest that the minister, if he is so serious about this issue, I would ask him when he is going to take action. I will ask him when he is going to take action. * (16:10) Mr. Sale: Mr.

Chairman, I just observed to the member that I did not raise the point of order. The

April 21, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1697 Chair raised the rules of the House, and so I do not think that the remarks were appropriate, but I did not make any comment about that. She is obviously very sensitive on this issue. [interjection] In terms of how the– Point of Order Mr. Chairperson: Point of order, the Member for Tuxedo. Mrs. Stefanson: On a point of order, Mr.

Speaker, I am very sensitive about this issue because this is a constituent of mine whose mother is sitting in the facilities in the Selkirk Mental Health Centre, and while this minister wants to be petty about language used and this kind of thing, every second that goes by, she is sitting in a dilapidated building. So I would suggest, Mr. Chair, that this minister take this matter more seriously. Mr. Chairperson: I thank the member. This is not a point of order. It is a dispute of the facts. * * * Mr. Sale: Maybe, Mr. Chairman, I could help the member understand how budgeting works.

When there is a major capital project to the redevelopment of a centre like Selkirk, it is a multi-million-dollar process, and before government launches on that scale of a project, there has to be money committed in the capital budget for that. I would just want her to know that was not always the way things were done in previous governments, specifically the one that preceded ours.

Commitments were made without budgets being allocated to fulfil those commitments, which is one reason why when we formed government, we had to make some very substantial allocations to projects which had been committed but for which no resources had been provided. So, when we make a commitment to renew something, we immediately earmark money in our capital budget so that people know, the staff knows and Manitobans know that this is a firm commitment for which resources have been allocated. So that is what happened in 2001.

The redevelopment of a centre of this size and complexity is not something that one goes out with a shovel and starts on, on Monday morning. I can tell you that the working drawings for the tendering of the first phase, which will be in the $20-million-plus range, will be completed in the fall of this year, of '05. I would expect to go to tender very shortly after that, probably in the same time period. This is a major project. I would expect construction would be about an 18-month process.

So I hope that we would see completion in the early part of '07 of this first phase of redevelopment, which I am sure the residents of Selkirk will be very happy about and the staff will be very happy about, because when the member, I hope, will visit, she will meet some incredibly skilled, competent and dedicated people who have worked with difficult physical circumstances and with people whose behaviours are often difficu lt. It was remarkable to me in visiting there, in fact, how humane and calm and interactive the residents and staff were.

It was a very positive environment in spite of the inadequate physical setting. So I hope the member will take the time to visit the centre and see what is planned, and I will look forward very much to receiving the working drawings this fall. Mrs. Stefanson: Well, perhaps I could explain to this minister how budgeting works. Normally, when a minister of the Crown says that there is money in this year's budget, it norm ally means that there is money in the budget, and that is typically how budgeting works.

Perhaps the minister is unaware, really, of how budgeting works and perhaps should not be out trying to give other people lessons when he does not really know how it works himself. Again, I think actions speak louder than words, and certainly, my constituent, her mother would like to see action take place.

I know announcement after announcement has been stated, and again the minister says, "Oh, it is not just about going out and putting a shovel in the ground." Well, quite frankly, if this had started some four years ago when the minister first said this would take place, we would be through some of the phases already. We should have been much further ahead than we are right now, particularly when it is promised, when they said it is in the budget. I would exp ect when the minister of the Crown says that, that it actually is; obviously, it was not.

I will leave the public to decide whether or not that was maybe providing a little bit of false hope by the minister at the time. Clearly, there are some serious issues surrounding Selkirk Mental Health. Again, I would ask the minister, he talks about in the fall of '05 and

1698 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 2005 in '07 and so on. Back when the minister made his announcement, the $20 million slated for extended treatment and so on, he promised a 25-bed in-patient facility for patients with severe acquired brain injuries and a separate 5-bed facility for patients with less severe rehabilitation needs. When exactly will that stage take place? Is that what you are talking about for the fall of '05? Mr. Sale: Staff tell me that–[interjection] I will wait until the member is finished talking. Mr. Chairperson: Honourable Minister. Mr.

Sale: I am just waiting so that you would be able to hear the answer. The first phase of the reconstruction which we were speaking of will include the acquired brain injury program, as well as the geriatric program. I have kind of refrained up until now from just pointing out, I guess, the obvious, and that is the previous government was in power from 1988 till 1999. There was no action, no plans, no announce- ments, no work for the redevelopment of the Selkirk Mental Health Centre. So I absolutely agree that it is an inadequate facility and it has long time expired.

I am very glad that in the fall we will have working drawings. I expect to be in the ground in '06 and occupying the new portion of the centre that is being redeveloped in '07, Mr. Chairman. Mrs. Stefanson: Well, again, I would suggest, Mr. Chair, that actions speak louder than words. It was promised back in '03–[interjection] No, in '03 actually. The announcement was made by the Minister of Health at the time that we would be ready in the next couple of months to announce a major renovation of Selkirk Mental Health Centre. Clearly, that did not take place, and it is unfortunate.

I think time and time again, what we see from this minister, from other ministers of this NDP government is that they send out empty press releases, make empty promises to Manitobans, provide false hope to Manitobans. They have time and time again, provided false hope to my constituent's mother who is in the Selkirk Mental Health Centre now, and I think it is unfortunate. Now again, it is going to be '06, '07. You know what? Those are empty promises. What they do is they send out press releases saying 20 million for this, 20 million for that. Well, is that not nice?

Now we are going to wait till '06, and we will probably see at the time that, we will have the minister sitting before us again saying, "Well, you know, Heather, it does not happen overnight. It does not happen overnight. It is not just about putting a shovel in the ground." Well, four years ago this could have started under this government. Four years ago and nothing has taken place. This is absolutely unacceptable. Now we see that we are not going to see anything else taking place until potentially '06, and I think that is absolutely unacceptable.

Yet they continue to send out press release upon press release upon press release providing false hope to Manitobans and to people in that community. I would say, Mr. Chair, this is absolutely unacceptable. I guess I would ask the minister this: Does he honestly believe that it is unacceptable when announcements are made back in '01 saying that there is money in this year's budget, again in '03 that, "Oh, we are going to be in the ground in a couple of months and we are going to be doing something," and again in '04, "Oh, yeah, we will have something in '06"?

Does he honestly believe that is an acceptable way to manage his projects? * (16:20) Mr. Sale: Well, Mr. Chairperson, at least the process is going forward. When there is a major redevelopment of any site, what you need to do is to work with the staff, with the patient's families where you can where they ar e in a position to do so, with the wider community and to plan carefully something that will meet the requirements of not just today, but tomorrow. That process of consultation is critical to any capital project. So when my colleague, the current Minister of Energy, Science and Technology (Mr.

Chomiak), made a commitment in his capital budget that money had been allocated to allow this project to get started, he was absolutely sincere and correct, and the money was allocated in the capital budget, unlike, as I have said earlier, a previous government where projects were announced but no money was ever put in the budget for them, which created an interesting program problem. Now, I would just also say that, in addition, Mr. Chairman, our government over five years has provided somewhat over $800 million in capital for

April 21, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1699 the improvement of health facilities, including Selkirk Mental Health Centre, Brandon, The Pas, Swan River, Thompson, Gimli, Steinbach, nursing homes, commitments that add up to $800 million- plus. So those are in the budget and those are committed. There has been more capital improve- ment, including the bigg est capital project in Manitoba's history at Health Sciences Centre under this government than there was under 11, as the head of the Manitoba Medical Association said, "lean Tory years." Mr.

Leonard Derkach (Russell): Unfortunately, the minister is being very silly in his responses. I think he should get a little more serious about the issues of Estimates and what he is supposed to be answering. Mr. Chairperson, to the minister through you, not only do we have announcements made and then those announcements are not followed up, but people's expectations are raised to a level where they then begin to anticipate that they can be treated for certain ailments because government makes announcements on it.

In the community of Russell, a hemodialysis unit was promised back in 2000, I believe, or 2001, and was supposed to be delivered by September of 2003. That was a clear indication in the announcement. To date, that unit does not exist. That expenditure has not been made. Yet, when I spoke with the former minister, he indicated very clearly that that was still a priority and still was to be delivered to that area. I would just like to ask the minister if he could provide the status of that since we are now some two years later. Mr.

Sale: The project has been approved to go to schematic design, but the problem in Russell, as the member, given where he comes from, would know, is that we have to have physicians and nurses who are capable of administering and maintaining a dialysis unit. We, the Assiniboine region, and the town of Russell have had some challenges in regard to finding a physician who would be willing to do the training and be able to provide the clinical oversight to that program. The money is earmarked in the capital budget, has been. The authority to move to the construction through the schematic stage, et cetera, is there.

The question is the ability of that hospital to be able to actually operate the program safely and in a continuous way, because, once you take patients on for dialysis, it is not easy, nor very humane, to have to ask them then to transfer again to Brandon or to Winnipeg because you cannot sustain the service. So we have to make sure, through the provincial renal dialysis program, which is run as a provincial- wide program, that we have the staff and the clinical supports to make the program a success.

I would absolutely commit to the member that it is our intention to have dialysis expansion into Russell as soon as we can practically do so. We need to solve, not just the space problem, which is actually the easier problem to solve, it is the capacity of the medical facility to sustain and oversee the program that is providing us with a challenge to the Assiniboine Regional Health Authority currently. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chair, again, through you to the minister. As a matter of fact, I have spoken with the physicians.

The reality is I have spoken to the physicians there and to the medical staff in the hospital and they are prepared to take the training, but there is no commitment from the ARHA, nor from the department to move ahead with the construction and with the, I guess, establishment of the program and the unit. I live in an area where we have First Nations' communities surrounding the Russell hospital and there is a significant amount of concern that this commitment that was made is just going to evaporate.

Very recently, I spoke with the doctors who are still there, and they have no problem in taking the training that is required if the commitment is made. The unfortunate thing, of course, is that whole region has had just a disastrous track record of keeping doctors. That is something else that I have broached the ministers about. We have had the northern doctors study, I think, that was done for that area. The region was challenged to give recommendations as to how this could be resolved. This is the second year into it, and we have doctors leaving that region by the droves.

I think out of 40 or 50 doctors that have been recruited, some 37 or 38 or perhaps even more now, have left. So there has got to be a problem in how those doctors leave and why those doctors leave. They will never tell you, no professional will ever tell you when they are leaving that this particular issue is one that they are leaving because

1700 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 2005 of a problem they are experiencing with either the administration or with the hospitals or with how the region is run. I am not here to point fingers at anyone. I am just suggesting to the minister that every time we turn around, we see services being eroded and less and less servi ces are provided in that entire region. The hemodialysis is just another example. We are in a situation now where the chemo- therapy program is in jeopardy in Russell, once again, because of doctor shortages. When I asked, there are doctors who will come into the area.

They have been identified by the communities, but it seems to be a problem with the Assiniboine Regional Health Authority who either tell you that we are not recruiting for doctors in this particular town or this particular community, because we have other priorities. We just keep going around in circles. What happens is, people then start to drift away from the community, pass it by and have to find family physicians elsewhere which causes another problem, because then we have over loading in larger centres. So it is just an ongoing situation.

If, in fact, we were to move ahead with the hemodialysis, I am told by the professionals in the community that they are willing to take the step forward to get training and to be able to deliver that service. I think we saw that with Telehealth. There was a concern for a while that we cannot put the Telehealth unit in because there is nobody there to take the training; but once the commitment was finally made to put the Telehealth unit in, before that Telehealth unit was installed, we had people who had been identified to take the training, and to this day that program is running very well.

I think this is an approach we have to take with hemodialysis. I think we have to indicate that it will be in place by a certain date and then challenge the area to identify the clinical staff and the physicians who have to be trained in order to be able to deliver the service. Otherwise, I think it is an empty promise and one that will never be fulfilled. * (16:30) Mr. Sale: Well, first of all, I would like to thank the member for that contribution because I think it is very constructive.

The most recent information that I had was probably a month ago and it was that, to date, they had not been able to identify a physician in the area willing to provide the necessary local medical backup. So I am delighted that appears not to be the case, and I ask the member to work with us to make sure that we can in fact move forward on that. The training for both nurses and the physician is not enormous, but it is not nothing. So people have to be willing to–I believe it is a nine-week program in Winnipeg, is that correct, for nurses? No, longer than that.

So the willingness is much appreciated, and perhaps the member and I can make sure that we are clear on that. I would absolutely assure the member that if his information is correct, as I trust it is, I take his information as correct, that we will move forward with that pr oject as quickly as we possibly can. So I thank him for that. Mr. Derkach: One more question, Mr. Chair, of the minister. Again, this is a local question for the area.

I know that the personal care home in Russell had been identified back in 1996, I believe, as one that was in need of replacement because of the conditions of that personal care home and because it had outlived sort of, I do not know what you would call it, the current standards. There has not been any identification, I believe, to this point in time, that this unit is a priority for replacement. I only say this because I was a member of a government where this had been identified even prior to regionalization.

Then regionalization came in, and I think some other projects, because of their urgent- need nature, were moved ahead of this project. But it appears that this project has now been moved again and is actually not even on the radar screen. Yet, when you visit the facility and compare it to what is being offered in other areas, this has become a substandard facility by today's standards, in my view. It is not one that has to be replaced tomorrow, but I do believe there is a need for some planning for that unit to be replaced, and as a matter of fact, perhaps even enlarged.

So I wondered whether the minister has a current update on where the project might be at or when it will be slated for reconstruction or new construction in the future. Ms. Kerri Irvin-Ross, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair Mr. Sale: The member raises an important question about an older facility. Manitoba has a challenge in

April 21, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1701 regard to its personal care home facilities, in that in the western region of the province we have the highest ratio of beds to citizens of any part of the province, as h

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	38-3-34b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	38th 3rd hansardpdf 34b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	f16b14e1c0dfdccfb45ce2d127b7f9aaa10f6ead

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