ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXI No.GA - 2:00 p.m., THURSDAY, 9 DECEMBER, 1982. Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R: (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon. Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Gerard L YOti, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, John RANS.OM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhine land Gimli Brandon West Ell ice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elmwood Kild onan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Cor1cordia Swan River Virden Kirkfie ld Park The Pas Ruperts land Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Robl in-Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Party NDP NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP IND NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC NOP PC PC PC NDP NOP NDP PC PC NDP PC NOP PC NOP NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC NOP NOP NDP NDP NOP PC NOP NOP NOP PC NOP PC NOP NDP NDP NOP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 9 December, 1982 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Peti­ tions . Reading and Receiving Petitions ... Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees .. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a Minis­ terial Statement and I have copies for members of the House. Mr. Speaker, I rise to announce the appointment of a Task Force that wi ll review the regulation of the Motor Transport Industry in Manitoba.

Changes in the regulatory system of highway transport which are under way in a number of provin­ ces wi ll affect Manitoba truckers hauling freight into these provinces as well as truckers from these provin­ ces doing business in Manitoba. In Alberta, for instance, for-hire trucking within the province is for all practical purposes deregulated; Quebec has over­ hauled its regulatory system and substantial changes are under way in Ontario. The regulation of trucking in the United States has opened opportunities for Manitoba truckers but it has also caused some difficulties.

While the major source of friction between Canada and the United States has been removed, a review of the procedures for granting internationsl operating authorities seems timely. I might add that arrangements are being made for ongoing liaison between American and Canadian officia ls to ensure continued co-operation. In recent months, representations have been made by the Manitoba Trucking Association asking that regulation be more strictly enforced. It appears, how­ ever, that legal instruments to circumvent the regula­ tions have become so sophisticated that strict enforce­ ment is well-nigh impossib le.

Much of the so-called "Pirate Trucking" seems to be covered by such arran­ gements, and it is easier to identify that problem than to cope with it under the present legislation. Another issue to be dealt with in the review is the state of the so-called independent truckers or owner­ operators. These are drivers who own their trucks but who drive exclusively for licenced carriers. Their posi­ tion is particu larly difficu lt because The Highway Traffic Act makes no provision for arrangements between licenced carriers and owner-operators.

Yet in most cases the agreements between the companies and the owner-operators stipulate that the operator is an "independent contractor." As independent con­ tractors, drivers are not protected by provincial or federal labour legislation. At the same time the regula­ tions prevent them from contracting to move freight for third parties. A fair resolution to their problem is urgently needed. Also, Mr. Speaker, several organizations have called 110 for complete or substantial deregulation of the motor transport industry.

The Economic Council of Canada advocates substantial deregulation in its 19 81 report, "Reforming Regulations," while recognizing that regu­ lation has had beneficial effects, particularly in the rural areas of the prairie provinces. The Farm Imple­ ment Dealers Association has asked for exemptions and the Canadian Manufacturers Association wants deregulation. Mr. Speaker, I am conscious of the fact that there are many conf licting interests in highway transporta­ tion and that it wi ll not be easy to arrive at a compre­ hensive solution.

I have instructed the Task Force to consult with all interested parties on an ongoing basis. Comments and suggestions from the general public wi ll also be invited. Members of the Task Force are Dr. John Rea, Direc­ tor of the Transportation Division of the Department of Highways and Transportation; Mr. John Kinl ey, Chairman of the Motor Transport Board, Mr. Carl Pro­ ciuk, Registrar of Motor Vehicles, and Mr. Bill Janssen, Economic Consultant. Dr. Rea wi ll be Chairman of the Task Force.

I have set the following terms of reference for the review: To consult with the users of transportation services in Manitoba, shippers and receivers, in order to assess their perceptions of the adequacy and efficiency of the services provided and their suggestions for improvements. To consult with the participants in the industry - PSV carriers, commercial truckers, independent truckers (owner-operators) -in order to assess their perceptions of problems and opportunities in the industry. To examine the existing regulatory framework in relation to present conditions in the motor transport industry.

To determine changes in motor transport regula­ tions introduced or contemplated in other jurisdic­ tions and where possib le wi ll assess the potential impact of those changes to determine the role of government in regulating the industry and to make recommendations for regulatory changes. In addition to the preceding terms of reference, the Task Force wil l be assessing the potential of increas­ ing the co-ordination of highway and rail transporta­ tion. This, of course, is a very complex undertaking and it is anticipated that it will take considerab le time to fully examine the issues.

Meanwhile, the review of the more immediate regulatory issues wi ll not be delayed. I have instructed the Task Force to proceed expedi­ tiously with its consultations and to provide me with its concl usions in order that I may further report to the House. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This announcement is indeed a very interesting one. It seems to demonstrate some concern for the problems

that the for-hire trucking industry is facing in the pro­ vince and that industry indeed does have some serious problems today and part of it is due, of course, to the economic downturn that has been worsened in the last year; but truly the transportation industry is important to Manitoba, the trucking industry, because Winnipeg has served for a number of years as a central hub for the trucking industry and that industry has provided the opportunity for a lot of jobs and invest­ ment in the Province of Manitoba.

Last year at Budget time, it seemed as if this Government had forgotten about the importance of that trucking industry because it seemed to be singled out for three very onerous new measures in the Budget The trucking industry was faced with an income surcharge on its professional drivers and management. It was assessed the payroll tax, which helped to make it noncompetitive with trucking indus­ tries of other jurisdictions and, certainly, the dramatic increase in the fuel tax imposed on the trucking inud­ stry by last year's Budget didn't help the competitive position of the Manitoba industry.

It seemed as if in one fell swoop-(lnterjection) - To correct the Minis­ ter of Agriculture, Mr.

Speaker, the fuel tax on diesel fuel was increased rather dramatically by their first Budget and that impacted directly on the trucking industry in Manitoba and removed some of that com­ petitive position the trucking industry enjoyed for the last several years; and it seemed in one swoop last year at Budget time, this Government removed some of the economic advantage that the industry had gained through our efforts in the cross-Canada nego­ tiations to bring in the Vehicle Reciprocity Agreement which lowered licencing and registration fees across Canada for our home-based industry.

I see that the Minister has chosen some rather pre­ cise terms of reference and will do some rather wide consultation amongst the industry, the participants in that industry and indeed consultation with the users of that ihdustry as well. His choices of membership on the Task Force are 75 percent very commendable with some very knowledgeable people in that Task Force, John Rea. John Kinley, Carl Prociuk. I only hope, Mr.

Speaker, that in making this announcement that the Minister does not use it as an excuse to put off enforcement of legitimately arising complaints by our rural carriers on violations of other carriers in their PSV authorities. Those are occurring more and more now it seems, Mr.

Speaker, as compe­ tition for limited numbers of loads becomes greater, and if this study will merely put off enforcement which can take place under the existing framework of the law and allows the Minister a way out to prevent the illegal trucking operations from taking business away from some of our home and rural trucking firms, that would be disappointing indeed; but I know the Minister will pursue that as he indicated yesterday in my questions to him.

We welcome the consultation process and will look forward certainly to the recommendations that the Minister may receive from this Task Force review of the industry. but we more importantly, Mr. Speaker, will look forward to what this Minister in this Govern­ ment does with it for the industry which is so impor­ tant to Manitoba. 111 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. RETURN TO AN ORDER - NO. 14 HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to file a Return to an Order of the House, No. 14 , dated June 29, 19 82, on the motion of Mr. Kovnats, the Honoura­ ble Member for Niakwa. MR.

SPEAKER: Notices of Motion INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. W. PARASIUK introduced Bill No. 16 ,

An Act to amend The Oil and Natural Gas Tax Act (Recom­ mended by Her Honour the Lieutenant-Governor). HON. R. PENNER introduced Bill No. 17 ,

An Act to amend The Judgments Act INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before we reach Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of members to the gallery where we have eight American journalists who are studying for a fellowship in professional journalism at Stanford University. They are touring Canada under the auspi­ ces of the Department of External Affairs, and with them is a representative from the Canadian Consulate in San Francisco, Mr. Allan Unger. On behalf of all the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. Also in the gallery, there are 50 students of Grade 9 standing from the St.

George School under the direc­ tion of Mr. Clint Harvey. This school is in the Consti­ tuency of St. Vital. There are also 16 students of Grade 5 standing from Balmoral Hall under the direction of Mrs. Vandebon­ coeur. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Wolseley. There are 30 students of Grade 9 standing from the John Henderson School under the direction of Mr. Warren Earl. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Finance. On behalf of the members, we welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Festival du Voyageur - casino MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I direct my question to the Minister in charge of Economic Devel­ opment and Tourism, and would ask her whether or not she could inform the House that a major part of the presentation made by the Festival du Voyageur, when they were asking for the $200,000 from the Manitoba Government, was the fact that they were having diffi­ culty finding a permanent home for their casino, and that they were having difficulty getting the Conven­ tion Centre at times when they wanted, and that this was one of the main reasons they needed this facilit y?

MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, we inherited a situa­ tion where the Festival du Voyageur were looking at their problems of having a permanent location and of having a financial base that would enable them to give some stability to their annual winter program. Mr.

Speaker, by the time the proposal came to us, the Festival had already gone through a year where they were required not to use the Convention Centre because of priorities given to out-of-province conven­ tions, and they had had one year's experience with holding their casinos in decentralized locations. Mr.

Speaker, although they may have undertaken their building originally in order to provide a location for their casinos, by the time the proposal reached us they had had the experience of a decentralized hold­ ing of their casinos, found it to be so successful that they in fact changed their plans and decided in future years that they would continue with the practice of decentralized casinos. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, we were left with the prob­ lem of evaluating the proposal for the building for the multiple uses that they then determined it should be directed to.

They have three halls in the building, one is quite large but smaller than our major halls in the Convention Centre; they have a smaller clubroom hall; and they have another bright and airy room which they wanted to use for senior citizen meetings. So it was on the basis of this new facility and the proposals that they had for its use and its role in the tourism field that we evaluated, and on the basis of which we made our grant. MR. R.

BANMAN: A supplemen tary question to the same Minister, I wonder if she could inform the House when they were evaluating the proposal, did they take into consideration that if the Festival du Voyageur were not to get a casino licence this year that they would show something like a $250,000 loss in this year's operation? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, the question of the casino and lottery is my responsibility. I want to make it quite clear that no one, not even the Festival du Voyageur, is assured of any future or annual casino licence.

That has been made very clear, and when they approached the province for a grant, we've been informed that they had approached the former Government and they hadn't had a reply at this time. When it came to my attention, I discussed it with the Minister responsible for this program. We made it quite clear on a number of occasions, and as I said, and I'm still making the same offer, we can bring in the letters that were sent to them, they were told not to count on any casino licences.

We told them that if they wanted to show, and they would have to show that this building was viable, that they could not take into con­ sideration any revenue from any form of gambling or sales of lottery tickets. This, in writing, they confirmed this, they understood that, and that is the situation as far as the casino is concerned. Now, as was explained by the Minister responsible, this is a program under Tourism. I don't think there's any doubt that Festival du Voyageur and Folklorama are probably the two events that bring more tourists here in Manitoba and it was given on that term only. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Min­ ister of Economic Development, who is in charge of Destination Manitoba, where these funds were appro­ priated from.

I wonder if she could confirm in her study, her extensive study into this matter, that when the Festival du Voyageur appeared in front of the Finance Committee from the City of Winnipeg, that one of the main reasons for the establishment of this building, and one of the main reasons they wanted to have city funding, was so that they could establish a casino and have a facility where a casino could be held because they were having problems at certain times getting the Convention Centre. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. HON. M. SMITH: Mr.

Speaker, we were aware of that rumour but we had no substantive evidence of it. However, on the basis of the rumour that the building was being set up as a casino operation, long before we made any decision on the grant, had the directors of the Festival come in, and what we raised with them was our concern that that was in fact their intention.

Also we gave them the information that we were reviewing the whole operation of casinos in the pro­ vince, as my colleague has said, and that they should know in advance that we hadn't got a clear policy or set of regulations on casinos, but that there could very well be a tightening in regard to the regulations relat­ ing to casino operation, and that we did not want them to assume in advance that they were going to be able to earn money in an area that in fact they might not well be able to do.

So we had quite a thorough discussion with them and we felt that our grant was based on the tourism component, that they were well-warned and informed · about the likely developments on casinos. We said that on the one hand the regulations might become much stiffer, but on the other hand, they would be entitled, the same way any other Manitoba group would be, to make application for such a licence and that they had to absorb the uncertainty of that situa­ tion in terms of their decision about how to spend money and what amount to request.

I think the net effect was that they had a clear understanding of our situation and we had assurance from them that the monies that we were granting for them would not be for the prime purpose of operating casinos. 112 MR. R. BANMAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, in light of the fact that the Festival du Voyageur derives the majority of its income from casinos -i.e., the casinos held during the time when the Festival is on.

I think last year they received something like $250,000 from that casino, so it's an integral part of that operation -could the Minister inform the House, now that the Festival du Voyageur is in financial problems and is asking the

Thursday, 9 December, 1982 Government for another $75,000, whether or not the Government will be advancing any more funds to that particular project? HON. M. SMITH: Mr.

Speaker, I had a communication from the Festival after the questions in the House the other day; a communication saying that they did not support the opinion that appeared in the newspaper a few days earlier and that, in fact, they apologized for any misunderstanding or embarrassment that it might cause the province; that they had been dealt with fairly and openly by us: that they did not hold us accounta­ ble for a business decision that was made by them, and in fact they have not made representation to us for an additional amount of money. lotteries licencing Board MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister in charge of Lotteries. I would ask the Minis­ ter if he could confirm that the Board -that's the Lotteries Licencing Board -is the one indeed that makes the decisions and that he is not personally involved in the decision-making process when it comes to the handing out of casino licences. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: So far, yes, yes, yes. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Speaker, a question to the same Minister.

Is the Minister satisfied and confident with the Board's decisions and the manner in which they have been running the Licencing Board to date? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, no. Under the former administration it was a "bloody mess," as I stated publicly, and we're trying to correct that. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minis­ ter could inform the House, after November 30th the casino licences and the different licences that have issued -he has just indicated that the Board has made those decisions -is he confident with that Board, and is he satisfied that the manner in which that Board has acted since he has been Minister, Mr. Speaker, has acted in a proper and judicious manner. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I'm not satisfied -the complaint is not so much of the Board, but the lack of direction that was given the last four years.

This is why we asked Judge Jewers to form a commis­ sion of one to give us an idea of where the funds are going. I stated publicly that I will not interfere with Judge Jewers until we get the recommendations in his report and then we will have policies that will be pre­ sented to the House. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minis­ ter could confirm that the Lotteries Board, which looks after Government sponsored lotteries, has not met roughly in about a year. 113 HON. L. DESJARDINS: I've never interfered with the Board. I don't know when they meet.

My contact has been with the employees of the Board, the general manager, and whatever concern or whatever direction that we want to give, went through that channel. I have met with the Chairman of the Board, who I found to be very co-operative, on one occasion. MR. R. BANMAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, I gather from those remarks that the Board has not met; otherwise, the Minister would have known. I wonder if the Minis­ ter could inform the House whether or not he instructed the Acting Chairman of the Manitoba Lotteries and Gaming Control Commission not to hold any more meetings until he instructed them to do so. HON.

L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, the member can gather what he wants. I didn't tell him that they had meetings or didn't have meetings, I'm not too sure about that. My directions are quite clear and I'll stand behind them. The situation is this: that we are waiting for a report and as far as I'm concerned we put not a freeze, we try not to "rock the boat," and they have been able to go on as they were doing from month to month. They were instructed not to issue any new licences on the casino. You probably won't believe it but I'll tell you anyway -the setup is that I have no idea who is licenced.

I have refused to let them tell me a year in advance. I don't want to know. The only change is that they used to get together sometime by pressure from outside sources, I'm told, and they would announce all the licencees for the year immediately. Now, because we were expecting -you said the Gaming Commission and Licencing Board -(Interjection)- that's right. Oh, the control, not their licencing, oh, that other one. All right. Well. then fine, that gives me a chance to answer that question. I was trying to sneak the other one through, but I did, I guess.

Yes, any decision that's been left to the chair­ man of the board, again, I've worked with him. They've never been told at any time to have meetings, or not to have meetings, but there is very little to do because we are in a situation of waiting for the report of Jewers that originally had been promised from some time in July, the 1st, and then in August, and because Price Waterhouse, who has been retained by Judge Jewers, has had difficulty in getting some of the information from some of these groups and I've been promised that as soon it's ready, it'll be forwarded to us.

It might be that I'll ask my colleague and Cabinet that we proclaim the Act before that to start getting down to business. Agriculture Ministers re oil crushing industry MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. J. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Honourable Minister of Agriculture. Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that a committee of MLAs from this province headed by my colleague, the Member for Arthur. went to Regina and met with the Minister of Agriculture in Saskatchewan, and staff from the Department of Agriculture in Alberta, in an attempt to get the three western Ministers of /'\gricul-

Thursday, 9 December, 1982 ture to meet and attempt to resolve the serious prob­ lems which the oil-crushing industry is facing in this province, and especially the CSP Foods at Alton a and Harrowby, I wonder can the Minister confirm that if and when a meeting is ever called -and I'm sure he's not going to call it -that he will attend that meeting. MR. SP EAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I can confirm to the honourable member that a meeting is taking place next week and I will be attending. I should also mention to the honourable member, Mr.

Speaker, that some of the difficulties that the crushing industry is facing -I'm sure the honourable member maybe doesn't realize it -are on two issues that really face the crushing industry and, that is, the freight rate question, which my honourable members have been on record as wanting to see the change and the crushing industry has in fact been caught up in this whole process and may be dealt a very serious blow. As well, Mr.

Speaker, we are faced with another Provincial Government who, because of part of the reasons that we are in the difficulty we're in with respect to energy prices, we're using energy dollars now to subsidize an industry, is killing the industry in Manitoba and Saskatchewan. A Conservative Govern­ ment, a government who as well was supported by the previous Conservative administration in allowing and wanting energy prices to rise and getting a better deal for Alberta. So, Mr. Speaker, there is great concern as to the long-term development of that industry in Western Canada.

I have just sent a telex to the Minister of Transport urging the Federal Government to rescind the 40 percent-plus increase in transportation rates and we will be meeting with the three Prairie Provinces and urging the Province of Alberta to renege on their sub­ sidies that they have put into their industry. MR. J. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In view of the fact that this problem just didn't arise yesterday and, of course, we have the news today from the Free Press of the warnings and the problems that this industry has been facing for the last several months, can the Minister of Agriculture advise me, and espe­ cially the people that are in the oil-crushing indus­ tries, the farmers, why he and his Premier and his Government have been dragging theirfeet for the last seven months on this problem? HON. B. URUSK I: Mr.

Speaker, the honourable member should well know when his Government agreed with the increasing in energy prices, we are now competing or attempting to compete with the Alberta Treasury in terms of the subsidies that were put into place. Even the Government of Saskatche­ wan, a Conservative Government, knew that they could not compete with the Treasury of Alberta. The honourable member indicates that there was a prob­ lem. Just a few months during the election period, they were crowing as to how well the rapeseed indus­ try was doing in this country with the opening of Harrowby.

They should have realized the implications 114 of the changes in the Crow rate that were coming about and the problems that would be dealt with that industry and they are faced with now. They don't real­ ize that, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Agriculture who I think we now have a better under­ standing why there are as many problems in Agricul­ ture in Manitoba today as there are because of his total lack of understanding of the basic problems: A question through you, Mr. Speaker, to the Minis­ ter of Agriculture.

In view of his comments about the Federal Government making changes in energy pric­ ing in this country that are affecting the rapeseed­ crushing industry -the only thing he did was to sit down and write a letter to the Federal Government in Ottawa telling them to take off the subsidy that Alberta had put in place, not calling the Government of Alberta, the Government of Saskatchewan and the CSP and the rapeseed-crushing people together to jointly resolve the problem. He asked the people that caused the problem to solve it. So, why, Mr.

Speaker, wouldn't the Minister of Agriculture have called that meeting and dealt with it directly in Western Canada, and if he is going to that meeting, would he lay his proposals before us? How much money is he pre­ pared to put into subsidizing the transportation and helping the jobs and the farmers in this country? MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, the Honourable Member obviously doesn't realize that it was the Manitoba Government, through its adminis­ tration between the Department of Transport, the Department of Economic Development and the Department of Agriculture who were in contact with the other provinces to indicate and to discuss prior to the ministerial meeting that was even talked about that the honourable member makes so much about in terms of dealing with the problem that we have in place. Well, Mr.

Speaker, here we have another example, on the one hand, the Leader of the Opposition indicat­ ing that we have a runaway deficit, that the deficit is too great in this Province of Manitoba; and we have the Member for Arthur saying, put up more money, spend more money and now compete with the Alberta Treasury because they are able to use the revenues from the oil that they supported in terms of the increase that they wanted the Aberta Government to have when they were talking about negotiating the agreement with Ottawa.

It was the then Premier of this province who said he wanted to see Alberta get world prices in oil. We now have it, Mr. Speaker, we are paying the price. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I'm sure the Minister of Agriculture is again trying to mislead the public to try and suggest that we, Mr. Speaker, are advocating more expenditure. Mr. Speaker, what we are asking for is the policy of the Minister of Agriculture.

Thursday, 9 December, 1982 I, Mr. Speaker, have a question to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, who I would think is responsible for food and food products in the Province of Manitoba. What has he done, Mr. Speaker, to encourage the use of the canola meal or the canola products that are used in the province and try to encourage a greater use of those commodities in Manitoba and in this country so that it in fact would help the crushing industry in this province? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, obviously the Honou­ rable Member for Arthur doesn't know the structure of the industry in Western Canada, that the industry was developed strictly on the basis of export, that the industry is not structured in terms of the crushing industry in this country on the basis of domestic use. The bulk of the industry in terms of oil is for export, Mr. Speaker. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, again I'm having diffi­ culty getting an answer from the Minister of Consu­ mer Affairs, and in view of the fact that some 30 per­ cent of the canola meal and the canola oil, I should say, is used in margarines and table products in this country -30 percent for the information of the Minister of Agriculture -could the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs tell us what he has done to encou­ rage the use of that commodity in this province? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consu­ mer and Corporate Affairs. HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: In answer to the question from the Member for Arthur, I was never aware that it was the function of the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs to promote the use of agricultural products in Manitoba. However, if you would like us to consider setting up retail food establishments to retail canola products, we could take that under consideration. Lead-in-soil removal program MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. J. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday the Member for Tuxedo requested some information on a report on the lead-in-soil removal program in the Weston area.

At that time he indicated it was his information that report had been in my hands for approximately one month, to quote him, and I assured him I would determine if in fact the report was availa­ ble and if it was I would forward it to him. I have the information after having consulted with my staff today, and the fact is that he had consulted my staff on November 17th, requested information on that report. They told him that report would most likely be ready in mid-December.

The report has not been completed yet, but when it is forwarded to me I'll be more than pleased to provide the member with a copy of that report. 115 MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure if that was a ministerial statement, but assuming it was I would have to say that -(Interjection)- well, the Minister answered the question presumably yesterday but if that was an addendum to the answer I'd have to say that the members of his staff indicated that the report material was available at that time and I've been wai­ ting for it ever since.

So perhaps the Minister could discuss that with his staff. HON. J. COWAN: I'll be more than pleased to discuss the misunderstanding on the part of the Member for Tuxedo with my staff, but I can assure him that there has been no report published or printed as of yet. When it is published and printed, which I expect will happen over the course of the next few days, I will ensure that he receives a copy of it as soon as it is available, which is the policy of this government and was not the policy in respect to reports which were prepared under his administration. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, again assuming that was another ministerial statement, I'll respond to the Minister saying that we've been well aware of the policy of his government with respect to MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Attorney-General on a point of order. Does the Honourable Member for Tuxedo have a question? The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. Manitoba Investment Activities Report MR. J. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I referred to a Mani­ toba Investment Activities Report that is kept up-Io­ date by the Department of Economic Development. The last one that I have is January to June, '81.

This report gives all of the list of investments within the province during the first six months of '81 and I'm wondering if the department still continues to compile all of this information from different areas and keep it as a report to the Minister. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Econo­ mic Development. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I'm glad that the mem­ ber opposite asked that question. The reports do come out and I'd be more than happy to make sure that he gets a regular copy.

One of the interesting things that emerges from the reports is that in this recession, which we know is deepening and getting more and more severe in terms of its impact on peo­ ple, that the decline in investment rate is significant for the Municipal Government, the Federal Govern­ ment and the private sector. In fact, the only group that have been increasing their investment rate is the Provincial Government and, I submit, Mr.

Speaker, that although the capacity of a Provincial Government to override the effects of the recession are limited, that we are in fact taking initiative in a way that none of the other actors in the field are doing. And if the member

Thursday, 9 December , 1982 opposite cares to give me suggestions as to how we can induce the other responsible groups in society to do their fair share in the difficult times that we're encountering I would be more than happy to hear his suggestions. Square poplar log houses MR. J. JOHNSTON: I thank the Minister, Mr. Speaker, it was a long dissertation to tell us that investment is down but I would like to have the lists that are kept regularly by the department. Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Hou­ sing and it is in regard to Order-in-Council 1403 for $10,000 to assist in the cost of construction of two experimental square poplar log houses in Manigota­ gan, Manitoba. Was that $10,000 approved by the Board of MHRC? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Housing. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Speaker, it is my belief that it was approved by the Board of Directors. I will take that as notice and check for sure. MR. J.

JOHNSTON: I wonder if the Minister would also take as notice or make a request to find out if the Board read the report on the two log cabin houses that were built in Wabowden under the Schreyer regime that cost $76,000 apiece, were never able to be sold and were never able to be used because the type of construction was not suitable for the area. I wonder if the Minister would ask if the Board read those reports. HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, with respect to the tog cabins and the project that was going on - (Interjection)- Mr.

Speaker, the Honourable Leader of the Opposition makes a comment from his seat about the shared misery of the log cabin. I would recommend that the Honourable Leader of the Oppo­ sition go out to Manigotagan and view the poplar log house that has been built there and he would appre­ ciate both its architectural design and its comfort. Mr. Speaker, with respect to the cost of the experi­ mental homes that have been built in both Manigota­ gan and other parts of the province to date and parti­ cularly with respect to the square poplar log homes, the cost is anticipated to be under $40,000.00.

It has been recommended by the Senior Planning Consul­ tant from CMHC that these buildings be approved for construction in the northern parts of the province. It is expected that these buildings will cost approximately half of the standard home that we're delivering into remote parts of the province and it is going to be a superior product. General assessment freeze MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Mem­ ber for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the Minister of Municipal Affairs.

I'd like to ask the Minister if he can tell us how much longer he antici­ pates the general assessment freeze will be in place? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Munici­ pal Affairs. HON. A. ADAM: It is pretty difficult to say at this time. There is a challenge in the Supreme Court, as the mRmber is aware, and perhaps it may be off sooner than we think. MR. D. GOURLAY: I'm not sure that I heard the Minis­ ter correctly, but I think he said it would be longer than you may think. HON. A. ADAM: Mr.

Speaker, I was saying that in view of the challenge to the Supreme Court, appealing Bill 100, it may be lifted sooner than he thinks. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Municipal Affairs. Along with the Main Street Manitoba Program, is there a freeze on assessment in cases where the merchants are upgrading their properties or will they be subject to reassessment immediately they make the improvements? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Munici­ pal Affairs. HON. A. ADAM: Mr.

Speaker, the freeze applies to the City of Winnipeg on individual property assessments and the City of Winnipeg does not qualify for the Main Street Program, so the answer is no to that question. MR. D. BLAKE: To the same Minister, Mr. Speaker, for clarification. I am to understand then that those buildings will be reassessed at the completion of the Main Street Manitoba Program for those towns that qualify. HON. A. ADAM: Mr.

Speaker, that is a matter for the municipal council when there are building permits that are issued, and if from time-to-time these building permits are sent over to the Assessment Branch, they · will be dealt with in a regular manner such as they are dealt with at the present time. 116 MR. D. BLAKE: A final supplementary to the same Minister, Mr. Speaker.

I wonder, in the case of the Village of Erickson, seeing as that is a model for his Main Street Manitoba Program, if he might make some recommendation that they not be reassessed for a period of three to five years following the impro­ vements to the main street. HON. A. ADAM: Mr. Speaker, The Assessment Act is clear and it is not the responsibility of the Minister to override the legislation and the statute of this Province. White Horse Trailer Court - evictions MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I direct a question to the Minister responsible for the Clean

9 December, 1982 Environment Commission. I have a number of resi­ dents in my constituency facing possible eviction at this time of year. There are some 40-50 school chil­ dren involved. I'm referring to their place of residence in the White Horse Trailer Court that apparently is facing an eviction notice as of December 15th. I would appeal to the Honourable Minister to take under consideration the problems these families would face if that order were enforced and surely that, between him and the Minister responsible for Housing, some resolution to the problem can be found.

I'm not taking issue whether or not the Clean Envi­ ronment Order is correct or not, as it is being imposed against the owners of the trailer court, but I do appeal to the Minister on grounds of compassion to have some concern that these residents can enjoy a peace­ ful Christmas in their homes. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. J. COWAN: I thank the Member for Lakeside for his continuing interest in this matter and I think the record should show that he has brought it to my atten­ tion previously, on behalf of the constituents, and advised me of their concerns.

I think we have acted in a compassionate way and will continue to do so in response to his inquiries on behalf of those individuals. For the record, so that it be clear, Mr. Speaker, the residents of the White Horse Plains Trailer Court received a letter from the Rentalsman on November 16th which has created some concern. That letter advised them that the trailer court was under a Clean Environment Commission Order, that order had expi­ red, that the necessary corrective work had not taken place and that they might in fact have to vacate those premises at any time.

That of course will put, as the member has so rightly acknowledged, undue stress on those individuals and we want to see that the Clean Environment Commission orders are followed, so we will continue to do that which we must do, as an Environmental Management Division, to monitor and to prosecute where necessary, but given the circums­ tances of this case and the involvement of the Ren­ talsman, we want to have a meeting with the residents of that trailer park in order to discuss this with them so that we can pursue, in a consensus-making way, alternative actions which may ensure that the integrity of the Manitoba environment is not violated unneces­ sarily so, but that they in fact will be able to have at least considerable notice if in fact it is necessary for that operation to be discontinued.

I would suggest that would not take place before Christmas, so I hope they do enjoy their holiday season and we will do everything that we can do as a Government to act in a compassionate way, given the timing of the year. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I'm sure the residents at the White Horse Trailer Court will view the response by the Minister with some hope but perhaps, or maybe, would like to be able to keep them in their homes at Christmas time, it's still not reassuring to the families involved.

Surely the Minister can; I know he has the authority to simply indicate that the Govern- 117 ment will be going into this meeting on December 15th, which is very soon, I might add, with the will­ ingness to allow these residents to have the safety and the comfort of their homes at least during the Christ­ mas period, and I would say, in Manitoba, to spring­ time when the proper arrangements can be made, when the order of the Clean Environment Commis­ sion can be carried out, when the matter can be pro­ perly dealt with. HON. J. COWAN: Mr.

Speaker, I do take into conside­ ration the member's pleas on behalf of his consti­ tuents, and I can assure him that we are entering into this meeting in the near future in order to resolve a difficult problem. Part of that problem is their housing, and that of course is of grave concern to every indivi­ dual, and when it is threatened such as it appears to have been in this case, then we want to make certain that we can provide to them assurances that they are not going to be acted upon in an arbitrary fashion by an uncaring Government. This is not an uncaring Government, so that is not going to happen.

I want to, without attempting to prejudice the dis­ cussions that are going to take course during that meeting, indicate to the member opposite that we will be approaching that meeting to find an alternative which in fact ensures that they can enjoy their houses and their homes as long as is possible, and at the same time ensure that they can do so with safety, as he has suggested is necessary, and that safety applies also to the safety of the environment, and that environment must be protected as well. So we will be compassio­ nate, loving and kind, but firm.

We will ensure that we don't act in an arbitrary fashion, and if they have every opportunity to work with us to develop an alternative which will in fact meet this difficult situation in a way which is satisfactory to everyone. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for question period having expired, might I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where I'm infor­ med that we have 20 students from the Creative Communications Course at Red River Community College. The college is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for lnkster.

On behalf of all the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORDERS OF THE DAY THRONE SPEECH DEBATE MR. SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Riel and the proposed amend­ ment thereto by the Honourable Leader of the Opposi­ tion, the Honourable Member for Brandon West has 25 minutes remaining. The Member for Brandon West. MR. H. CARROLL: Mr. Speaker, I'm going to diverge slightly from my original plan of speech. At the begin­ ning of my speech I indicated that it was very exciting that my speech was following directly after the speech of the Member for Morris.

I indicated that I thought there would be quite a contrast between what he was

9 December, 1982 proposing and what I'm proposing, and that is in fact the truth. However, I've been giving a lot of thought to what the Member for Morris said, and he expressed the feelings of his constituents and his own feelings extremely well.

He indicated that what his people wanted, what his constituents wanted, was the free­ dom to work hard; the freedom to worship and carry on as they've been carrying on for a long time; the freedom to have their land and to pass their land on to their children and their children's children, and that he would have to take a very very small "c" conservative approach to how these virtues, if I may call them that, be continued. I can't find fault, Mr. Speaker, with what the Member for Morris wants for his people.

I can't find fault with that at all but, in contrast, I'm also reminded of what the Member for Rupertsland wanted for his people. When you strip it down, the Member for Rupertsland's people don't have very much, and their aspirations are basically the same aspirations as those people from Morris. So I'm not criticizing the Member for Morris, because he is doing what he's supposed to do. I wish that I could do what I would like to do, and that is to see that everybody in Manitoba has the things that the Member for Morris wants. I'd like to now return to where I was yesterday at the closing of the Session.

When the recovery of our eco­ nomy does come, and let's pray that it comes soon, I think that it'll have to come as a result of a new deal, a new form of marshal! plan, a modernized view of the marshal! plan, a new deal, the Government will have to intervene massively. The only way that it can happen is with Government intervening. It's like a war. When wartime comes, Government intervenes and every­ body gets behind the Government, everyone accepts all sorts of things they wouldn't accept in peacetime. Well, the danger is as great now as if there was a war.

I can see that we are going to have to have intervention of a type that, even though we might not like it, it is going to be absolutely essential. While we are waiting for this to happen, because we in Manitoba are too small to do it by ourselves, we can do things to facilitate the stimulation of the economy and I indicated yesterday, we are doing this in some small measure in the Speech from the Throne.

I'm indicating "some small measure" and I should indi­ cate it's not going to be by eliminating useful jobs, but we must be doing some positive things and we can't do what the Conservatives did in 1978, 1979, and that was to push the economy downhill to give us a heads­ tart towards the recession. What we must doing is doing things to give us a headstart to go on up, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to wind up my remarks by commenting on my changed position in this Cham­ ber. I am enjoying my role as an Independent Member.

I am still a Social Democrat, but I am not sitting with the Caucus of the New Democratic Party and I feel very, very free to give them the benefit of my advice and the benefit of my criticism and to vote against them at any time that I don't approve of what they are doing. On the other hand, I intend to do the very same thing to my friends on the right. I am in a unique position, Mr. Speaker. It's very, very seldom in life that we get very much freedom, and I'm probably as free as any man can be.

I think I can summarize my position up on sort of a lighter note as this -when my bank manager sneezes, I no longer catch pneumonia; when the Premier burps, I no lon­ ger get indigestion. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Monsieur l'Orateur, c'est avec fierte que je me leve aujourd'hui dans cette Chambre pour adresser la parole en temps que Depute de Saint­ Boniface, Ministre de la Sante, des Loisirs et Condi­ tions Physiques et Sports.

Je suis tres fier de representer la circonscription de Saint-Boniface, circonscription qui a vu le jour en 1870 !ors de l'entree du Manitoba dans la Confedera­ tion Canadienne. Je suis tier d'appartenir a cette for­ mation politique qui vise avant tout la justice a tousles niveaux. Mais Monsieur l'Orateur, surtout je suis tier de posseder une conscience sociale. En tan! que Ministre de la Sante, Monsieur l'Orateur, je dois vous dire comme ii me fait plaisir de vous voir en bonne forme, en pleine forme.

J'aimerais feliciter mes quatre nouveaux collegues au Conseil des Ministres ainsi que le proposeur et le secondeur du Discours du Trone. Vous le constatez sans doute, cette journee est pour moi toute particuliere, elle represente un grand pas de I' avant, un pas dans la direction de la justice. Certainement, vous pouvez vous imaginer comme ce n'est pas toujours amusant de parter a des piliers de granite. Aujourd'hui, jour memorable, je vous adresse message, parole et vous me comprenez. J'ai attendu vingt-trois annees, vingt-trois longues annees, pour cette occasion et j'en profile.

L'Honorable James Prendergast, l'Honorable Joseph Bernier et tant d'au­ tres n'ont pas eu I' occasion et la chance que je pos­ sede aujourd'hui. Oue leurs contemporains n'ont pas ete de mesure d'entendre et surtout de comprendre certains discours remarquables m'attriste. Depuis 1890, quatre-vingt-douze longues annees, plusieurs discours furent prononces en fran9ais, mais peu importe la haute qualite, !'importance et la valeur des paroles prononcees, toutes se voyaient perdues dans les echos de cette Chambre. lncomprises pres- . que inutiles.

Ce succes, aujourd'hui, est d'autant plus apprecie, monsieur l'Orateur, apres avoir lutte depuis 1959. Je dois vous avouer que les defaites furent ameres, les victoires penibles et longues a venir. 118 Au debut, avant la revolution tranquille au Quebec, ii ne fallait jamais separer les questions de langue et de foi. La lutte pour ces deux causes se faisait toujours ensemble. Plus lard, vers les mi-soixante, ces deux causes furent bien distinguees. J'aimerais vous referer au mois de mars 1963 lors­ que je proposais un projet de loi qui aurait permis l'enseignement du Fran9ais des la premiere annee.

Je dis bien du Fran9ais et non pas en fran9ais. A cette epoque, nous pouvions enseigner le Fran9ais comme sujet a partir de la quatrieme annee seulement, pas question d'enseignement en fran9ais, encore moins de classe fran9aise, et surtout pas d'ecole fran9aise. Comme de raison, mon projet de loi fut amende pour completement changer !'intention originale. Plus tard, quelques annees plus tard, en a:vril 1963, un autre projet de loi, le projet de loi 64, dont l'inten-

Thursday, 9 December, 1982 tion etait de faire du Franc;:ais une langue d'enseigne­ ment au Manitoba, encore la meme chose, une autre defaite, ce projet fut encore tellement modifie que son intention fut perdue dans le verbiage technique. Mais le climat politique changeait, en effet le Parti Liberal lors de son congres annuel en novembre 1966 avait inclus dans sa politique !'utilisation du Franc;:ais comme langue d'enseignement. Et a present, j'aimerais vous lire quelques lignes de la premiere page de La Tribune datee du 19 novembre 1966. "Overwhelming Support, Liberals Approved Tea­ ching in French.

Fifty-year Issue Revived. The princi­ ple that French should become a language of in struc­ tion in the province's schools has been approved by the Liberal Party of Manitoba. At the party's annual convention in the Royal Alexandra Hotel delegates gave overwhelming support in a voice vote to a resolu­ tion from St. Bonif ace MLA Larry Desjardi ns that French should become a language of in struction when demand and facilities existed." Monsieur l'Orateur, aussi un editorial d'a peu pres la meme date, cette fois du Free Press, je cite: 'The vote at the Liberal Convention must have been extremely gratifying.

Manitoba Liberals can take pride in having broken an outmoded tradition and in the knowledge that they have acted in the best in terest of all Manitobans. The next step is now up to the Government. When it takes that step as it should without delay, it would be able to do so with full confi­ dence that it will have the support of the Liberal Party." Plus tard apres des discussio ns en caucus, voici ce que La Liberte du 1e r decembre 1966 disait: "La cause liberale approuve le Fran c;:ais comme langue d'enseignement.

Tous les amis de la cause franc;:aise de I' unite nationale au Manitoba et dans tout le Canada appren nent avec joie l'acceptation sans hesitation par le caucus liberal, tenu tout recemment, du Fran c;:ais comme langue d'enseignement dans les ecoles du Manitoba. Le depute de Saint-Boniface, Monsieur Laurent Desjardins, avait deja fait adopte a l'unanimite cette meme resolution comme premier pas au dernier congres liberal. Cette decision du cau­ cus liberal met officiellement au programme du Parti Liberal l'enseignement du Franc;:ais au Manitoba.

Les barrieres politiques sont par de ce fait abaissees, le temps d'agir est arrive. Felicitations a tousles artisans de la veritable unite nationale." Mon sieur l'Orateur, a present l'ouverture de la ses­ sion 1967. Le gouvernement Roblin, certain de l'appui des Liberaux, presente le projet de loi 59, projet ren­ dant ainsi le Franc;:ais langue d'enseignement legale au Mani toba. L'auteur du projet de loi, le Ministre de l'toducation d'alors. etait le Docteur George Johnson. Oui le meme Docteur Johnson qui est maintenant mon aviseur medical au departement de sante.

Encore une fois, je telicite le Docteur Johnson ainsi que tous les membres du Parti Conservateur. Trois annees plus tard, soit en 1970, avec le projet de loi 113 du gouvernement Schreyer, ii etait mainte­ nant legal, a concurrence de 75% des heures de classe, d'enseigner le Franc;:ais au Mani toba. Enc ore une fois, ce projet fut approuve a l'unanimite par la Chambre. Cela ii y a deja douze ans, un autre pas geant, car maintena nt les ecoles franc;:aises peuvent 119 revenir. Et, monsieur l'Orateur, les franco-manitobai ns repondent a l'appel.

Aujourd'hui, la ou ii y a une popu­ lation de langue franc;:aise suffisante, ii y a une ecole franc;:aise. Le Franc;:ais est langue d'enseignement pour des milliers de jeunes Mani tobains, soit qu'ils sont a l'ecole dite franc;:aise ou bien on les retrouve dans les ecoles d'immersio n. Plus de Manitobains, peu importe leur source nationale, sont en mesure de s'exprimer dans les deux langues officielles du Canada. Monsieur l'Orateur, en effet, beaucoup de progres ces derniers quinze ans. Mais ou allons-nous mainte­ nant que le Franc;:ais dans l'enseignement est legal.

Malheureusement, notre loi scolaire ne reconnait ni l'ecole fran c;:aise, ni l'ecole d'immersion. Aucune garantie ou protection legale; n'etait-il pas grand temps que le Manitoba ail une loi scolaire qui est au moins aussi progressive que celle des autres pro­ vince s. II est certainement a esperer que ce sera le prochain pas. Le gouvernement actuel annonc;:ait recemment une politique globale pour ce qui est des services gouver­ nementaux en langue franc;:aise ici au Manitoba. Cette politique depasse les cadres du colere juridique.

Une politique qui tout simple ment tente de rendre acces­ sible aux francophones des services dans leur langue maternelle la ou les besoins se manif estent. Quoi de plus juste pour un gouvernement de tenter de repon­ dre aux besoins et aspiratio ns legitimes de la popula­ tion entiere. Le secteur de la societe si longtemps depourvu de plusieurs de ces droits les plus fonda­ mentaux, pour cela mes compatriotes seront encore plus manitobain que jamais et nous en serons tousles gagnants.

Pour cette politique, je felicite mon Premier Min istre et tous mes collegues et je leur en remercie en mon nom et au nom de tous mes compatriotes franco-manitobains. lmaginez ce que le Manitoba et le Canada auraient ete et auraie nt evite si de telles mesures auraient eu lieu plus tot ou encore mieux n'auraient jamais ete necessaire. En 1870, Louis Riel et la majorite des citoyens de la Riviere Rouge avaient un simple reve. Ce reve etait de recevoir un traitement juste et equitable de la part des autorites canad ie nnes. Pas facile. Plusieurs mepri­ saient les valeurs des habita nts de la Riviere Rouge.

De par leurs prejuges, ils ne pouvaient pas accepter que des gens de sang mixte pouvaie nt devenir des citoyens a part egale. Malheureusement, comme le faisait remarquer l'autre fois si bien l'autre soir le Depute de Rupertsla nd ces prejuges existent tou­ jours. Conscient du dynamisme explosif qui existait a la Riviere Rouge, les peres de la Confederation deci­ derent de faire de cette nouvelle province une pro­ vince modele.

Une qui representerait le vrai esprit de !'entente confederative qui avait ete signe trois ans auparavant. lls etaient conscients des deux solitudes qui se trouvaient au Quebec et en Ontario. tot rangers de par leur origine nationale, leur langue et leur reli­ gion, ces deux entites avaient decide que la coopera­ tion, par l'entremise du pacte confederatif, etait la seule planche de salut valable a cette epoque. Le Mani toba, une petite societe devient done provi nce.

Ces citoyens, metis, amerindiens, catholiques, pro­ testants, de langue franc;:aise ou de langue anglaise, mais tous Canadiens rec;:oivent les memes droits que tous les citoyens britanniques. L'Acte du Manitoba

Thursday, 9 December, 1982 proclame a Westminster en 1871 en est le temoin. Le Manitoba sera ni a l'image du Quebec, ni a I' image de !'Ontario, mais bel et bien a I' image du Canada tel que perc;u par les peres de la Confederation. Pendant vingt ans, monsieur l'Orateur, le Manitoba a vecu de ses plus beaux jours. La tolerance et la collaboration primaient surtout. Cependant, les anciennes passions se reveillerent avec vengeance en 1890. La dualite de cette Chambre et dans les cours de justice de la pro­ vince fut remplac;ee par une forme de monolithisme, la tolerance par des debats passionnes.

Ce son de cloches declencha les pires haines et prejuges qui s'etaient endormis depuis pendant quelques annees. En 1916, la hache tomba une fois de plus. C'est !'education qui est atteinte cette fois. De l'enseigne­ ment en franc;ais, certes ii y en aura , mais a la cachette, dans les ecoles dites privees ou separees, et ce, a des couts economiques et psychologiques exor­ bitants. Mais monsieur l'Orateur, monsieur le Presi­ dent, je ne veux m'arreter plus longtemps sur le cote noir de notre histoire. Je voudrais plut6t vous presen­ ter Saint-Boniface, circonscription etablie en 1870.

Saint-Boniface est comme un chene, petit arbre plante ii y a au-dela de cent soixante-quinze annees. II a enfonc;e ses racines profondes qui le nourrissent depuis. Devenu arbre moyen, ii a su soutenir les tem­ petes, les secheresses et oui quelques feux de prai­ ries. Mais ii endure et persevere. Les assauts ne font que le rendre plus fort. Toujours ii s'est tire de ces epreuves une nouvelle force et une volonte de vivre. Le siege que j'occupe presentement a connu plu­ sieurs deputes renommes et de differente formation politique.

Des deputes dont le sens de la justice et la devotion envers leurs principes n'ont jamais ete en question. Saint-Boniface s'est vu represente par les Marc Aimable Girard, Alphonse Alfred Lariviere et Roger Marion, l'Honorable Juge James Prendergast, Jean-Baptiste Langevin, S.A.D. Bertrand et l'Honora­ ble Juge Bernier, Horace Chevrier, G.P. Dumas, H. F. Laurence, A. L. Clark, EA Hansford chef du Parti CCF et enfin Jo. Van Bellingham et Roger Teillet. Monsieur le President, en 1959, j'adressais cette Chambre en franc;:ais, mais peu nombreux etaient ceux qui me comprenaient.

Pour une fois, je me repete, je cite quelques phrases tirees de mon dis­ cours lors du Debat au Discours du Trone en 1959, le premier discours que j'ai prononce en cette Chambre. Je cite: "Plusieurs milliers de mots, plusieurs centaines de discours ont proclame les louanges de Saint-Boniface, et ont aussi fait connaitre les besoins de ces citoyens; des poetes, des historiens, des educateurs, des mem­ bres du clerge, des citoyens, des visiteurs distingues pour parler de Saint-Boniface.

Je me sens done indigne de parler trop longtemps sur ce sujet, mais toutefois comme humble represantant de ces fiers citoyens, ce sera mon privilege de travailler a faire connaitre Saint-Boniface et ses enfants. Ce sera mon devoir de voir a ce que les gens qui ont eu con­ fiance en moi soient bien representes et s'il le faut, defendus meme.

Saint-Boniface a raison d'etre or­ gueilleux de son histoire, mais ce que j'aime le plus, ce dont je suis le plus fier, c'est que le cote de Saint­ Boniface est celui qui est le plus manitobain, le plus canadien peut-etre de la province. lei on trouve des groupes de differentes origines. La plupart de ces groupes ont conserve leur langue maternelle. A Saint-Boniface on parle franc;ais, anglais, beige, polonais, ukrainien.

Ces groupes sont tiers de leurs propres croyances, culture et coutumes. lls ont tous leur propre organisation, leur propre chef et unis ensemble ils travaillent tous au bien-etre de Saint­ Boniface. Dans cette Chambre je porte les couleurs de Saint-Boniface avec fierte. J'ai toujours cru que les gens passent avant la politique et toutes les forma­ tions politiques. Si nous avons des partis politiques aujourd'hui, c'est pour que ceux-ci servent les gens et non pas !'inverse." 120 Mes vingt-trois annees dans cette Chambre n'ont pas toujours ete faciles.

J'ai du subir plusieurs revers, je n'ai pas toujours ete compris et on m'a souvent critique. Et trop souvent, je me trouvais si seul. J'ai du prendre des decisions penibles, certainement pas tou­ jours populaires, mais aujourd'hui j'oublie toutes ces difficultes. J'ai reve en 59, en 63, en 67 et en 70 et je reve toujours, mais grand miracle, mon reve est en train de se realiser et j'en suis tres tier. Merci monsieur. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kirk­ field Park. MRS. G. HAM MOND: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm honoured to take

part in the Throne Speech Debate and I would like to add my best wishes to you for continued good health and to wish you and all the members of this Assembly, "Season's Greetings." My congratulations to the new Deputy Speaker and to the Chairman of Committees, and I'd like to also offer my congratulation to the Mover and Seconder of the Speech from the Throne. We are faced today with a government whose First Minister signed a document -and you've all seen it many times -"A Clear Choice for Manitobans." It says that we can turn around the harsh economic circums­ tances of the past four years.

Now in the third paragraph on the first page of the Throne Speech and I quote, ''The economic recession under way when my government assumed office one year ago, has deepened and persisted causing wides­ pread hardship throughout Canada and in Manitoba. Unemployment has arisen to post-Depression record levels. Homeowners, small businesses and farmers are struggling for their economic survival in the cur­ rent difficult situation." As one of my colleagues keeps saying, what a difference a day makes. Mr.

Speaker, our province has 52,000 people unem­ ployed in this province today - I want to repeat - 52,000, 8,000 more than last month, double the num­ ber a year ago when this government took office. Every day the statistics in the newspapers bombard us with facts and figures about the unemployed. In Tuesday's Free Press there's an

article and it's headed "City welfare rolls grow, funds short." Mr. Speaker, I'd like to read a couple of paragraphs out of that: "With welfare rolls threatening to swell beyond his highest predictions by the end of the year, Winni­ peg welfare director Ron Hooper has asked the city for yet another increase in the 1982 welfare budget." Then he further goes on to say, "'At the end of Novem­ ber, 5,371 individuals or families were getting munici­ pal welfare in Winnipeg, an increase of 131 percent over the 2,322 welfare cases 12 short months ago,'

Thursday, 9 December, 1982 Hooper Said in an interview yesterday." Mr. Speaker, this is the state that our people, our people in Manitoba find themselves. They believed the Premier when he said that we can turn around the harsh economic times of the past four years. But, Mr. Speaker, I think the next paragraph that I'm going to read out of this same

article probably speaks as much for Manitobans as anything. "A substantial number of people are exhausting their UIC benefits but are not applying for welfare assistance,' Hooper said. 'They may be living from savings, a spouse's earnings, a temporary or permanent job, or may have moved in with relatives,' he added." Mr. Speaker. how many people are facing this kind of situation? What kind of hardships are these people facing, who will almost anything to stay off the welfare rolls and believe me, there won't be many of them finding either part-time or permanant jobs.

How many of these people, how many of the people who finally were forced to apply for welfare to keep a roof over the heads of their families, to make sure their children were fed, how many of these children waited until they had exhausted every resource before applying for welfare? The kind of stress that is put on families in these kinds of situations must be enormous. What does this government talk about? I'll go back to the Throne Speech, Page 1 again, and I quote, "These are times which will test the will of individuals, communities and nations.

Manitobans are meeting this test and in the process, proving that their tremen­ dous ability to cooperate and support each other in times of adversity, is as strong today as it was during the Great Depression in pioneer days." Rhetoric, Mr. Speaker. This Throne Speech has finally taught me the real meaning of the word 'skill' in the effective use of speech and that's what this speech is. The Throne Speech is filled with it; the nerve. Then they go on to say, and back to Page 1, "This province is demonstra­ ting a community spirt and will, to make the best of a difficult situation." Difficult situation.

I can hardly believe those words. I have a difficult situation when my car doesn't start or have a difficult situation when I've made two appointments at the same time but believe me, if I was having problems feeding my chil­ dren or clothing my children, 'desperate' is what I would call my situation, and desperation is what the unemployed in this province must be feeling. When my children were young, Mr. Speaker, I used to read to them about "The Grinch Who Stole Christmas." Well, Mr. Speaker, it's the NOP who is stealing Christmas this year. I want to go on, Mr. Speaker, and talk about the jobs.

In the Winnipeg Free Press on Tuesday, again, there was a $24-million scheme for jobs announced. "'Bet­ ween 1,500; it says, 'and 1,800 unemployed Manito­ bans a month are exhausting their unemployment insurance benefits and the figure will likely hit 2,000 a month this winter,' says Mary Beth Dolin, Manitoba Labour Ministe r." Two thousand a month; that is unbelievable, Mr. Speaker. What are these people going to do? Nothing this government can do can change the fact that we are going to have 2,000 more unemployed every month or coming off UIC onto the welfare rolls. Mr.

Speaker, then we find that the Minister goes on to say, and I'll read a little further, '"Manitoba really 121 now is in a catch-up position with other provinces,' Dolin said." That's a strange way to put our unem­ ployment situation; we're catching up. Great stuff for this government, Mr. Speaker. We would have had the jobs in this province if the Minister of Mines and Resources hadn't fumbled the Power Grid. They can talk about Alcan; possibly that wouldn't have happe­ ned. They can talk about potash; possibly that wouldn't have happened.

But let me tell you the Power Grid would have happened and, as a Manitoban, I resent the fact that they fumbled this great opportunity for our province and for our people to have jobs which are permanent and meaningful and are long-living jobs, not just short term. Winnipeg has the second worst jobless rate in Wes­ tern Canada. That's disgraceful. I've lived in this city all my life and have never seen anything like this. I want to tell you the people of Winnipeg and Manitoba are being short-changed by this government and all the short-term jobs in the world are not going to change that. Then, Mr.

Speaker, this one I think takes the cake. I have a newspaper clipping here and it says, "Officials visit job creation sites," and it's a picture of the Pre­ mier, the Minister of Northern Affairs that's here and the Member for Thompson visiting. It's bad enough that they have people digging mud for short-term but then they have to go up and say, "Look what great guys we are." Now I want to just quote one little thing out of here. It says, "The Premier promptly asked for a shovel and began to make a modest contribution to the mammoth task.

Cowan spoke words of encoura­ gement" -as we know -"as he leaned on the long­ handled spade." Now, Mr. Speaker, in this picture there's a total of, I think, six or seven people, and who's smiling? -three. There's the Minister of Nor­ thern Affairs; he's smiling. There's the Premier; he's smiling and then we have the Member for Thompson; he's almost laughing. This is just great stuff. Well, I want to tell you that the miners from Thompson are certainly more polite than I might have been because I think if he had asked me for a shovel, I might have told him where to put it. Mr.

Speaker, I want to tell you, I feel a sense of disgust that this government -(Interjection)- 'out­ rage' probably is true, but 'disgust' I think describes it better, that these people would go up and take advan­ tage of a situation like this. No wonder the miners were saying, "Get out of the way, I came here to do a job. I want to keep at it without politicians bothering me." Sure, they're sick and tired of being exploited by this government who are doing things, but at the same time they have to go up, and this is what they call compassion. Compassion, my foot. It's sheer politics, nothing more. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to go on and speak a bit about the deficit. What is happening to our province? Close to $500 million in deficit. We have never lived like this. Surely the people across this Chamber don't live like that. If we did we'd be under long ago. I can't believe that they are sincere when they would put not only our children and our children's children in this kind of debt, but in one short year I believe, they've overspent or are spending an increase of $155 million. Where are they going to go from here? They've got a couple of years left yet. That's about all they're qoing

Thursday, 9 December, 1982 to have because how long does one go on like that? How can you put that sort of deficit on the backs of Manitobans? Mr. Speaker, I ask you. Then what does the Premier say when he's asked a question about it? I want to tell you who the Premier hides behind. He hides behind the handi capped. When he's asked a question he says, "The Province of Manitoba does not intend to kick the crutches out from beneath the han­ di capped in this province." He says that in reference to the 1. 5 tax. Then he goes on and says it again when referring to the deficit.

"As I ind icated the other day, we certainly don't intend to undertake those kinds of programs that will kick the crutches out from under­ neath those that are in need." How pious, how dare he hold up the peop le of Manitoba who are handicapped in this manner? They don't want to be treated any dif ferently, Mr. Speaker. They want to be treated the same as anyone else. Let's not hide behind the handi­ capped in this province for mi smanagement because that's exactly what they're doing. I have heard so much about compassion and dis­ cussion. Everyone is compas sion ate, Mr. Speaker.

I don't doubt for one min ute that they're compas sio­ nate, but I tell you I have heard enough about com­ passion. What I want to see is some dir ect action that will help them in the long term. When this side of the House was in power during the last four years, this government put up a program for the low-incidence, high-cost funding -the autistic was one. Now, this isn't a high-profi le type of handi­ cap, and the Mini ster of Education in her compassion, did n't add one single solitary cent to this group. Now they need one-to-one, Mr.

Speaker, not to be shoved into Portage, not to be put in institutions any further. The ones that are there, it's bad enough, but not any­ thing further. Yet, this government talks about com­ passion. This is a very needy group. Mr. Speaker, there is no excuse for this Premier waving the handicapped out, pul ling them out like a star, 'and look what we did; look how great we are.' Let's have a little bit more anonymous givin g, if that's what it is, but it shouldn't be; this should be their right.

When we're talking about the handicapped and tal­ king about funds and saving money, the local CAMR group in Fli n Flon which the Mini ster of Corrections and Community Services was funding -these were funds that were put up origin ally under the former government -they found a home in Flin Flon that would suit their needs. That home cost $79,500, but someone came along just before they signed the deed and said, no, that's too high; we can't spend tl1at kind of money. Great. I understand that; they would under­ stand that; but now, what have we got?

The govern­ ment is going to bu ild a home to the tune of $125,000.00. Now, that is an extra $45,500, and these are approximate figures, Mr. Speaker. I haven't got the exact numbers. but that's what it is. The Member for Minnedosa said it correctly. They're using this as one of their job creations. So instead of having an existing facil ity right now that could help these peop le, they're going to put it off and say in the spring, look how many jobs we created. What kind of help is this? How many of these would we fin d if we could carefully look through their Estimates? I would say hundreds.

So there are savings to be made. Mr. Speaker, I think it's known as robbing Peter to pay Paul, and I think it's despicable. I find that this government talks, talks, talks constantly in consulta­ tion and this is great, peop le want to talk, but even­ tually they want some action. There are some examples of ways that they could cut back, and they're just minor examples. I wasn't looking for big things; these are just things that came to min d. But how about comparing the extra people that are in the Premier's office now to when we were in power? I mean that's probably just a small thing, but how many are there?

Two new departments just announced. There we go again, and I think that pro­ bably there were some more last year. Extra Mini sters, how many extra Minis ters? Hey, 500 more in the Civil Service. 122 Now we have in the Quarterly Report, which we finally received, Mr. Speaker, and I quote: "To keep the deficit situation manageab le, we are taking addi­ tional steps to contain expenditure growth, both for the balance of the current year and into the new fis cal year.

Desirable but nonessential spending approved for 1982-83, which does not offer signific ant econo­ mic or social benef it, will be postponed or cance led." Great stuff.

"To supplement corrective action already taken, the government has recently" -and I'd like you to note the word 'recently' -"adopted the following expenditure control measures: out-of-province travel will be limi­ ted to essential conferences and meetings, and the numbers traveling will be kept to an absolute mini­ mum; no further additions to the government's vehicle fleet will be permitted." I would imagine with that one that it's because all their high-powered help that's in place already have their vehicl es. "The Treasury Board must approve any new road construction pro­ jects, land acquis itions.

Finally, we intend to limit new hir ing." Mr. Speaker, this is called closing the barn after the horse is stolen -absolute tripe. The First Mini ster - I think he said it yesterday in answer to a question -says our situation is not unique when he was referring to the economy. What does make it unique is that this government said they could turn it around. Our situation is not uniqu e, but this government told the peop le of Manitoba that they could turn it around, that they would help them. The only peop le sure of their jobs -and that isn't for too long -are probably the members in this Chamber.

I really do feel that it's about time they stopped giving us the clic hes that they talk about our Leader talking about and get down to absolute business. There was another

article in the Winn ipeg Sun, and I don't intend to read it all. Tt1ey're talking about the Premier, Mr. Speaker, when he spoke about our defi cit and he said,"M anitobans must now realize the extreme fin ancial position of their Provincial Government. The projection of a $252 mill ion deficit," - $252 milli on -my gosh. Now we've got $500 mill ion and still goin g, and that's in one year, Mr. Speaker. At the end of the

article it says, "What a di fference a year makes." I couldn't agree more. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to just mention my own taxes. and I have them here. For four years of our govern­ ment they went up $125.09 - four years, $1 25.04 - pardon me, I made an error there. In one year, Mr. Speaker. under this government, my taxes went up $212.10. Now, Mr. Speaker, in four years 13 percent; in

Thursday, 9 December, 1982 one ye<ir 19 .6 percent. I don't particularly like percen­ tages, but I can't believe this is the sort of government that were going to reduce taxes, help the homeowner; they sure have helped the homeowner. I hate to think what's going to happen next year. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to just spend some time on the payroll tax, the tax on employment in this govern­ ment. How does this government react to the unem­ ployment that has risen to post-Depression levels? It puts a 1.5 percent tax on employment.

How could a government that is supposedly the friend of labour come up with a tax on employment? Whether this government likes it or not, this tax is being paid by the employees in most cases. It is unreasonable and foo­ lish to assume that a company that is struggling to stay alive. These are the companies. they employ the people, they're the ones that help the people so they've got to stay alive. There's too many bankrupt­ cies right now. How can these people be expected to absorb this unfair tax?

The result of this tax is many businesses are either putting a freeze on salaries, reducing sala­ ries, or laying off employees. Is this what this govern­ ment meant when they put on a 1.5 percent tax that they were just so thrilled to have come up with. Aren't we clever? They sure were clever. In a brief to the Premier and members of Cabinet by the Manitoba Chambers -and my leader has already referred to this, but I think it can be said again -they commented on the timing of the tax. "The 1.5 payroll tax could not have been introduced at a worse time for business in general," said the Chamber.

"For labour­ intensive businesses the imposition of this tax at this point in time is a devastating blow. Overall economic activity, as reflected in gross national produce figures, both federally and provincially, are static or diminis­ hing, leaving many businesses in a fight for survival.

The majority of businesses, particularly those tied to the agriculture economy in Manitoba, have nowhere to turn to earn extra income that will be required to pay this tax." The Chamber goes on to say that the payroll tax will only add to the difficulties in creating employment for students and others lacking direct employable skills. "The timing of the payroll levy is adverse on one more point.

At a time when all jurisdictions are fiercely competing for labour-intensive industries, the payroll levy in Manitoba amounts to a significant deterrent for businesses to locate here." I would think that this last point, Mr. Speaker, made by the Chamber, might give this government second thoughts about the 1.5 employment tax, especially as it relates to the Winnipeg Core Area Agreement.

As I understand it, the key objective, or was the key objec­ tive, of the Winnipeg Core Area was to create employ­ ment activities, employment opportunities in the core area, and to see that the residents of the core had first crack at these jobs. Monies are available to be spent to provide incentives to labour-intensive industries to encourage them to locate in the industrial park in the Logan area. Now that was at the time, Mr. Speaker, when the industrial park was to be close to 20 acres.

Since all the hoo-hah in the newspapers, with the Minister of Urban Affairs interfering everywhere, we're not sure exactly what we have there. These businesses are supposedly highly labour- 123 intensive. Now, why would a highly labour-intensive business locate in Winnipeg when they know they'll be faced with a payroll tax, with a tax on employment? Incentives in most cases are one-time grants; but a 1.5 tax could not only go on forever, but would be subject to increase, as it has been in the Province of Quebec.

With only two provinces in the whole of Canada having this discriminatory hidden tax, why would any business choose Manitoba? Surely this is a legitimate question that this government should be facing. Now to get back to the core area, Mr. Speaker. I understand that the proposal -I'm not sure if the City has accepted it yet -is for the Government of Mani­ toba to take over the part of the housing, and spend up to the tune of $5 million on one small neighbourhood. Now, Mr.

Speaker, whether this is right or whether it is wrong, I don't know, but I do know that when it comes to an industrial park they do indicate that about 20 acres is about as low as you can get if you want to get industries that are going to be viable, that are going to be labour-intensive. They need that much space, and if they're going to cut this down arbitrarily because the Minister doesn't like what they're doing, why doesn't he stay out of Winnipeg on this issue? Why doesn't he let them go on with the plan?

I heard the Member for Rupertsland say that the Native people in Winnipeg are really looking forward to the things that are going to happen in the core. This was supposed to help them, Mr. Speaker, because they were going to spend, I think it was close to $5 million as incentives, to help these people get employ­ ment, and it was the Natives in Winnipeg who proba­ bly could have been helped as much as anyone.

Cer­ tainly this government, I know, seems to be committed to helping the Native people, but here they are at cross-purposes because we have a Minister who wants to go in and put in some houses, which is great stuff, but there are other houses that they can have. Possibly it's the jobs that they need, and in fact, not possibly, we know it's the jobs that they need. I've been a Manitoban all my life. I can't believe what I'm seeing when I see this Minister interfere the way he is in the local government. When he talks about consultation -and I couldn't agree with the Member for St.

Norbert more -councillors get more call in one day than a provincial member would get in a year practically. I know that may be a slight exaggeration but it's very slight. Just one watermain break gets about 50 calls. These people are consulting constantly; they couldn't be closer to their constituents. I find this intrusion into the City of Winnipeg again out of line. I'd like to speak a moment, Mr. Speaker, about Shoal Lake because - I may not be able to find Shoal Lake to speak about it. Mr.

Speaker. it came as a great surprise to me to get in the mail a letter from the mayor and a pamphlet talking about Winnipeg's water sup­ ply. Why should the city, at a time when money is in such short supply, have to both waste their time and money sending me a pamphlet so that they can show support, so they can get some help from the Minister of Urban Affairs so that we can keep our water in Winnipeg clean. I don't understand this kind of thin­ king; this is another case of waste.

But I want to tell you. it brought a bit of action, because I think I heard on the news this morning that Munro got in touch immediately with the mayor, saying hold everything,

Thursday, 9 December, 1982 maybe we'll do something, 30,000 answers does count. I want to say that it's fine to say, spend the money. It's fine to say MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER , P. Eyler: Order please. MRS. G. HAMMOND: It's fine to say, Mr. Speaker, that I think the Minister is getting a little bit nervous on this one, and well he should be, because when it comes to Winnipeg's water supply we've had the grea­ test water that you can talk about, and here he is saying buy the land, let's see what's happening, sup­ port the city. What is happening to our province when they are wanting to interfere with everything?

There are enough problems in this province that are under provincial jurisdiction without this Minister interfering in the water supply. I would suggest it's time they got out of this sort of thing and got down to where it counts jobs. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I was reading an artic le on the - let's see -it's in the Executive, December, 1982, and as I was reading along, it said "waking up to political reality." It says, "At last Canadians are waking up to the political reality that their institutions have been undermined by a small group of poli tical activists intent on changing both the direction and nature of their country. The interventions are but a means to the end, which is to fasten government's grip upon all aspects of the Canadian economy, paying lip service to individual enterprise.

The activists practise the game of two steps forward and one step back." Now, Mr. Speaker, when I read this I thought they were talking about the NOP. Well, it turned out that actually they were talking about the Liberals in Ottawa, but it could have been this government. This is the sort of thing that they are doing. They want to enter· into private business now. They want to get into the life insurance and pension business, Mr. Speaker, and I want to say that the life insurance - why would a province, why would a government want to get involved in an industry that is employing so many Manitobans?

Why would they want to take these jobs instead of developing others? They seem to see something there and they want to grab it. I don't understand this kind of thinking, Mr. Speaker, and I know that they would like to get their hands on the pension business. I don't doubt that for one minute. They see that. Now we have them going into ManOil. Well, here we are again, and I must confess I don't know a lot about the oil industry. I do know that from talking to the Member for Arthur that there is a lot of business going on, that there is a lot of mining, a lot of deve lopment.

Now we have our Government saying that they're anxious because PetroCan is going to come in. Well, I have an artic le here from the Winnipeg Free Press by Dian Cohen, and it says: PetroCan profits just don't exist. I won't read all the article, but I will read just one little part of it. It says, The Financial Times -if Petro­ Canada operated as a normal corporation its annual interest cost would be somewhere between $250-300 mi llion and the company would be losing its shirt rather than reporting a profit of $64 mi llion.

Petro­ Canada's profits are pure fiction, an economic lie, and with the amount of money that's been poured into this 124 one government enterprise; and here we have a pro­ vince who is talking about helping. They're talking about helping the underprivileged, the handicapped, the women; they're going to help everybody, and yet they're going to waste their money doing something that private enterprise does so much better. When wi ll they learn, Mr. Speaker? Then back to the Throne Speech, Mr.

Speaker, Page 3: "The venture capital initiative wil l address the shor­ tage of equity capital frequently experienced by small and medium-size Manitoba firms. It wi ll stimulate equity investment in innovative firms and strengthen such ventures." Well, Mr. Speaker, this makes me very nervous. What's the matter with just plain ordinary firms? Why innovative? Why something that's so weird that nobody wi ll ever get a hand le on and you won't get any jobs and won't last? They went into innovative things the last time they were in power and look what happened to them -everyone went down the tube.

Now, I would suggest that this is not the kind of support that Manitoba businesses need. They want help in your day-to-day business; not innovative - (I nterjection)- No payro ll tax is correct. They just want some help in day-to-day business and just while they're hurting. They don't want help forever; they only want it for a while, none of this forever business. Once they get on their own two feet, by gosh, they'll be happy to pay taxes, they'll be happy to help out. Give them a break when they need it. Mr.

Speaker, I know I've got such a short time, but one thing I think has to be said, and that is we have to say something about the wage settlements in the public sector. There is a growing resentment out in this province about the public-sector money, the sett­ lements that they are having -the average guy isn't getting it. You can tell by the unemployed, this is what's happening to them; they're losing their jobs. We need something a little bit more sensible than what's been happening now and I'm afraid that the government in the next year or two is going to hear about this more and more and more.

They can talk all they want, Mr. Speaker, but this is probab ly one of the things that is going to hurt this government in the long run the most, because it is hurting every other Manitoban. Mr. Speaker, I request and I beg of this government that they start looking at Manitobans in the public sector-the way things are -not the way they think it is. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER, P. Eyler: The Honourable Minister of Mines and Energy. HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I begin by congratulating you on your appointment to your posi­ tion.

I know from the skills that you've demonstrated in the past, you'll certain ly fill this function particularly well. Through you, I would like to pass on my regards to the Speaker. I congratulate him on his improved health and I wish him continued good health into the future. I want to congratulate my new colleagues in Cabinet, the Deputy Chairman of Committees, the Mover and Seconder of the Throne Speech. I also want to commend the Member for Ruperts­ land for his very thoughtful and thought-provoking comments. The Member for Rupertsland brings us the

Thursday, 9 December, 1982 benefit of his insight and his background, a back­ ground that makes us a better caucus, a background that makes us a better government, a background I'm proud to have on this government team along with the backgrounds of all my colleagues. Despite the rather strange statements made by the Leader of the Conservative Party regarding the back­ ground of the people on this side of the House being of a nature that we were not fit to govern. Mr.

Speaker, those statements debase politics almost as much as those statements debase the Leader of the Conserva­ tive Party, and I'll return to this topic later because statements like that have no place in the politi cal spec­ trum of Mani toba. Mr. Speaker, the people on the other side think that making statements that verge on big otry shows lea­ dership. They can be proud of that, Mr. Speaker; I'm ashamed that they're proud of that. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. Does the Member for Minnedosa have a point of order? MR. D. BLAKE: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, the member who is speaking is inferring that our Leader was using a bigo­ ted remark when he referred to background of mem­ bers on that side of the House, and I would like to have the record show that he was inferring busine ss trai­ ning and ability to manage and run the Province of Manitoba. That's exactly what he was referring to and it's pretty obvious by the damn mess you've got us into already. HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I'll cer­ tainly comment on that point of order, which wasn't a point of order, and I hope it doesn't detract from my speaking time, in that when the Leader of the Conser­ vative Party made those statements he made no refe­ rence to that whatsoever and I said that they were rather strange statements -they were rather strange statements. They should have been qualified; they weren't qualifi ed. He has made statements somewhat like that in the past and I'll be coming to that, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

Now, the interesting thing about the people on the other side is they somehow think that a New Democra­ tic Party Government is an illegitim ate government. They always try and paint that pi cture as if somehow they are members of some type of family compact, that they are members of some type of elite group that somehow is preordained to rule. and that isn't the case, Mr. Speaker. We have indeed a di fferent si tua­ tion here; we have a changing set of circumstances in this province and, Mr. Speaker, all people are getting a voice in this government.

Take a look at our back­ bench, take a look at our caucus, take a look at our Cabi net, and you'll see that the various groups that make up the cultural mosaic of this prov ince are get­ ting a chance to partici pate in the dec ision-making process of government.

The interesting thing is that when we called the Econom ic Summit and we brought forward busine ss and labour to meet with government, the Conservative Party somehow felt that this process wouldn't work, that there would be all this antagonism because they were the only legitimate group to ever deal witl1 groups like that, that a New Democratic Party couldn't. 125 In fact, their bi ggest concern was that they weren't there. And the interesting thing is that they've run this down; they've run down the cooperate spirit of the Summit; they've run down the cooperative spirit of the Summit.

They said it was a facade; it was imagery; there wasn't anything to it; you people are trying to hype it out of perspective. We're not trying to hype anything out of perspec­ tive, but I'd like to quote Mr. Lloyd McGinnis, the President of the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce, who was writing in Mid-Canada Commerce, Novem­ ber 1982, and he said, "As the program progressed," and he's referring to the Economic Summit, "the value of consultation took on new mean ing and the poten­ tial areas for cooperation expanded.

By casting-off our traditional adversarial roles of busine ss, labour and government. we found we had much niore in common than origin ally thought. For instance, we readily agreed on the seriousness of the depressed state of our economy and the limited manoeuvrab ility of Manitoba to about the national circumstances on the short term. "There was also consi derable agreement as to the causes of our economic downturn. As expected, the solutions to our problems have brought to the surface the greatest dive rgence of views, but even here there was much common ground.

An area in which we all agreed was the opportun ities we have in Manitoba to combat the short-term cond itions and to prosper in the long term." Mr. Speaker, there was an approach of bringing the people together, of getting an understanding of the problems that exist, of respecting each other, respec­ ting the consultative process that has just been deni­ grated by the previous speaker.

There is an unders­ tanding out there; there is an understanding of the seriousness of the situation, internationally and national, and the fact that it's important for people to pull together desp ite all of the negativis m of the Conservative Party. The people of Mani toba are wil­ ling to pull together. The only 'odd man out' is the Conservative Party.

We hear a lot of complaints from the Conservatives who say that we shouldn't be going out there and speak ing with the people and yet, when the Leader of the Oppos ition spoke, he was saying that I was too afraid to go up to ManFor or to go up to Thompson and deal with the min ers. Well, let me tell you, I've gone up there; I've gone di rectly up to ManFor. I've gone to Thompson, I've gone to Lynn Lake, I've gone to Leaf Rapids. I have not hidden under a rock like the Tories did for four years.

When I went up to ManFor just after becoming Minis ter responsible for Manfor and finding out that the Conservative Government had ordered a bui ldup of 14 million board feet of inventory because they were coming into an election, when the normal inven­ tory was one million board feet. Fourteen million board feet of inventory was built up in Man For leading up to an election, even though the Board recommen­ ded some action being taken, and these people coming into an election, these business experts hid under a rock for that period of time.

I went up and I met with the management and the workers and I said, we have a problem here. and they said, "We know. we can see it all around us. We're glad

9 December, 1982 you've come up here. The other people were afraid to come up here; they wouldn't come up here and deal with the situation." That's the same thing with the miners and this is why people get so upset, that maybe, despite the seriousness of the economic situa­ tion, despite the fact that we don't have great interna­ tional markets for minerals and that there are layoffs, there has been a process of consultation with the mining companies, there has been a process of consultation with the workers and we have been wor­ king to do something in terms of keeping that labour force there.

We've been doing community projects, we've been working with the miners and with the companies and we've been working together. We ini­ tiated that and that's in marked contrast to what the Conservatives did in 1977; they didn't have an interna­ tional recession then. There was a shift, a rationaliza­ tion by lnco of their Thompson activities versus their Guatemala and Indonesian activities, and these peo­ ple sat on their hands and said we can't do anything about that. The people recognized that you were a do-nothing Government up there, that indeed you were afraid to go up and see the people.

We have gone forward, we have not been afraid and that's the big contrast bet­ ween the New Democratic Party Government, despite the difficult times -and we are living in difficult times ­ and the record of the Conservative Government, when we weren't living in an international recession or a national recession, but rather when we were living in a situation whereby the world around us wasn't doing that badly, but we weren't doing well at all, and they hid there during that period.

The only thing that they would do from time to time was to come out -they would come out of the bunker here, they had developed a state of siege mentality - they would come out and if a group came forward they wouldn't go meet with them; they had to march in the Legislature. They would go out and spiel venom at that group, and that is the approach of a bully. There is a lot of rough talk, a lot of swaggering, a lot of name calling, a lot of breast beating, but when you come right down to it they are cowards, they are quitters.

No one exemplifies that name calling more than the Lea­ der of the Conservative Party, the biggest swaggerer, the biggest puff fish in this Legislature and, Mr. Spea­ ker, the biggest coward and the biggest quitter. He lost as Premier and now he's picking up his marbles and he's going to run. Why is he going to run? Because within his own party, Vaughan Baird wants to bring forward a motion that any normal democratic party would have on its books, that there should be a leadership review. We have it on our books on a yearly basis. We are proud we have it because we are a democratic party.

It is a secret vote, but at the first breath of this being introduced in the Conservative Party, what happened to the swagger? He ran. Even Joe Clark has stayed around and faced some very very difficult times and he's prepared to go into the next convention. -(In terjection)- No, I don't have to sup­ port him; but will you support him? Fine. That's the interesting thing; that's for you to choose. but even through that process there isn't a democratic process. They can't do it.

They don't even do it on a democratic basis and we have these little lectures about demo­ cracy, democratic conditions, when we have a corn- 126 pletely undemocratic party in action, when they won't have a leadership review, when they won't have motions on resolutions, but this is not out of charac­ ter. Remember what happened in 1966 when there was a Leadership Convention then in the Conserva­ tive Party? -(I nterjection)- Whenever that year was, it was '65, '66-(ln terjection)- '67, fine.

I'm corrected by the Honourable Member for Lakeside who did stick around, who lost that election, who lost the subse­ quent one but is still here. He's not a quitter. I make the prediction; we have a dark horse there. What happened to the present Leader of the Conser­ vative Party? He packed up his marbles at that time. He put his tail between his legs and he runs at the first real sign of opposition, even within his own party. Now the only saving thing for him is to act like Tru­ deau. If you notice, he wants to be a reincarnation of Pierre Trudeau.

The two most disliked politicians in, I think, recent Manitoba history are trying to pull the same shuffle. He's announcing a resignation; he's sticking around and every day he's bellowing the call for a new election. 'Sterling in Fantasy Land' -30. I'd rather have him stay. In fact, I challenge him to screw up his courage and stay here. He is such an inviting target. -( Interjection)- Well, that's the interesting question. If he doesn't screw up his courage to stay - and I prefer his staying, he's the best on the front bench -I'm interested to see who will replace him for the Tories.

Will we get an even more regressive Conservative, an even more regressive than the one we have in place now on the far right. And I've referred to an interesting

article in the November 29th edition of the Globe & Mail, and it's the results of a survey. "The Conservative Party has sent questionnaires to the 650 delegates who attended the party's policy convention in Toronto last May. About 60 percent replied. The portrait of the typical Conservative convention delegate that emerges from the results shows a man 46 to 55 years old" -Bud, you're in there - "who lives in Ontario" -well, we'll allow that. "He wants the Government to cut spending on day care, unemployment insurance, family allowance, and, yes, job creation projects." Cut it all out.

And I'm still quo­ ting from the article, "He doesn't want any increased government spending on hospital care, medicare, post-secondary education or the poor." MR. DE PUTY SPEAKER: Order please. MR. R. NORDMAN: There's a little problem I'm having with hearing, even with the speaker here, you're not speaking into the microphone. You're speaking to the backbenchers -( Interjection)- yeah, the mike's in front. MR. DE PUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines and Energy. HON. W. PARASIUK: He's Conservative, a typical Conservative and this is their own questionnaire, this is their own questionnaire.

They don't want to spend any more on health care, on medicare. We have an aging population; we are going to have to deal with those problems with respect to expenditures on health care. When we say we won't let deficits cause us to kick the crutches out from the handicapped or the ill,

people complain. Look at this resolution -that's exactly what they want us to do -in their own survey. In their own survey, this is what they want to do'. It's an interesting thing and where do they want to spend? They want the government to spend more on defense, especially on NATO and NORAD. End of quote from that article. What they want is the Reaganomics approach, and there is this feeling amongst the Conservatives that they should move to the right. So I look at the group, and there's a number out there --(lnterjection) ­ Peter Pocklington, -that's right.

I look at that group and I wond er which ones are going to emulate that approach and take Amway and Peter Pocklington - that approach, take their politics even more to the right. Who wants to do that? It will be interesting because we'll watch that and we will determine which direction they want to go and then what we also want to know is whether any of them there have the courage to move in a more progressive direction. We've known what's happened to anyone who's spoken out with a progressive voice in the Conserva­ tive Party over the course of the last four years.

They've been blackballed; they've been kicked out. Speak to some of your own Conservatives about that. Now, the interesting thing will be to find out which one of those people will break out from the mould and try and strike out that ground. It'll be an interesting thing because they will have to show some courage in doing that because the present Leader of the Conservative Party will still be there, hoping desperately for an election so he could be a reincarnation of Pierre Tru­ deau. So we will watch which direction they will go.

So far I haven't seen it; so far I've seen this continued drift to the right on the part of the Conservative Party, and the Conservative Governments elsewhere have been moving to the right as well. There has to be that approach which is one of com­ passion, competence, caring and the only alternative when it comes to that approach of course, is the New Democratic Party Government.

That's why they are so frustrated, that despite the difficult times, the people of Manitoba are keeping faith with their government; they are working together with their government and I don't want to underestimate the very difficult times we are in. That was the mistake of the previous government. We indeed realize, as do most people in Manitoba, the depth of the international recession; the fact that they have record deficits in the U.S.; the fact that we're into a very serious situation in Canada, which is reflec­ ted in every province, every province across this coun­ try.

B.C. has put a freeze on their hydro development: Alberta lost $50 million in mega projects with the same government there. Do you hear all the braying about someone losing mega projects, $50 million worth of mega projects. They were deferred or canceled. No, I'm not blaming them because that's the economic situation and circumstances that we live in. The interesting thing is that the Alberta economy has gone so bad that they've had to go out to external borrowings to borrow $1 billion, the first time in 10 years.

Saskatchewan, their potash mines are down; Ontario, massive deficits, record unemployment. 52 percent in Sudbury; Quebec. they may have to post­ pone the James Bay Project, they've said that they 127 will. They're not sure of how long, it could be up to 25 years.

So that shows the severity of the economic situation that we find ourselves in and no one is trying to hide that; no one is trying to deflect attention away from that because unless you recognize the severity of the problem you're not in a position to try and come to grips with it and do those things that you can to deal with the short-term problem, while at the same time giving yourself the wherewithal to deal with the long­ term opportunities that will come about when the economy does make an upturn, especially at the international level.

The interesting thing is that those possibilities -and there are a number of them -still exist. I don't want to raise a set of false expectations with respect to the Al can development or an aluminum development or a potash development, but there are still discussions taking place. But I wouldn't want to put out ads the way these people did. The interesting thing -and hear the scoffs because that's to be expected -on October 3rd, 1982, Joy McDiarmid was appointed as the Public Affairs Liaison Officer for Alcan.

It's part of Alcan's commitment to maintain a liaison office in Winnipeg during the pos tponement period following the 15th of June, 1982 announcement to delay the final decision on the construction of a 2,000 ton aluminum smelter in Manitoba -that's happening. With respect to the fertilizer, the Annual Report of the IMC says that the company is going to put on hold its 1. 3 million ton expansion of its present K-1 Mine at Esterhazy, Saskatchewan, that's on hold. They had received approval when the previous administration was still in.

The negotiations for a new potash mine in Western Canada are not expected to resume until there is a marked improvement in markets, the report says. That's what they are saying, not what the Conservatives are saying; I'm not saying anything, I'm saying that this is what they are saying. Again, I don't want to put out a whole ad campaign on that. I don't want to raise false expectations, but I do say that we in Manitoba have confidence regarding all long-term prospects. We do have confidence, and we won't be as negative. We'll be realistic, we won't be negative like the previous administration.

Then we come to the Western Inter-tie-an interest­ ing statement that was in the Free Press by Don Braid as the Edmonton Journal's political columnist, says: "Shaben says with total candor, the engineering work on the Slave River Project will occupy the province's depressed consulting ind·Jslry. Alberta has been litter­ ed with underemployed engineers since the collapse of the energy mega projects." That's not my quote; that's what they are talking about. Mr.

Mclaren, the Minister responsible for the Potash Corporation in Saskatchewan, says that, although the province decided to shelve the project for a couple of years, it is still interested. He says, the reasons for the delay was a lower demand for power in Saskatche­ wan. -( Interjection) - Lorne Mclaren, the Minister responsible forthe Saskatchewan Power Corporation. The Minister pointed to declines in the potash industry and farm machinery manufacturing as areas where less power is needed because of slumps in the economy. So, I'm not saying those things. These are the people saying them.

These are what those people are saying and their whole concern arises as to whe-

Thursday, 9 December, 1982 ther in fact the government somehow went wildly off in a new direction when, in fact, the truth of the matter is -and this was documented last spring -Manitoba Hydro management advised us of four weaknesses with respect to that interim piece of paper that requi­ red up to two years further negotiation to finalize and that is what we took forward to for discussion with the other two provinces. We negotiated that; that's part of a negotiating process.

We didn't re-invent the wheel, we said that we were committed to the notion of a Western Inter-tie, that we would pursue it in good faith on the basis of the princ iple of a fair sharing of risk and a fair sharing of benefit. We didn't re-invent it. We didn't go back and raise up some of the early discussions put forward by even some of the Conservatives that maybe the Inter­ tie should be somehow attached to their increases in the price of oil because Manitobans are certainly going to pay a lot more for oi l. There is a massive escalation there.

We didn't do any of those things, but those things were raised origina lly. They weren't at all negotiated in the discussions that took place between the Conservative Government in Manitoba and the other two governments to the west of us. We didn't go and re-invent all that, but we did, indeed, raise the points raised to us by Hydro mana­ gement which is what I think they should do, and it's incumbent upon us as government to respect those points and to take them forward, and that is what we did. I believe that our long-term development is solid. We do have a good renewa ble energy source.

When the economy picks up internationa lly energy-related projects wi ll improve. We are doing what we can at the same time to make greater use of our renewab le energy in Manitoba. We are working to replace diesel generators with hydro. We are working on the electri­ fication of urban transit, and I'm pleased to be working with the City of Winnipeg in this respect. My collea­ gue, the Minister of Urban Affairs and myself wi ll be working with the City; we'll be pursuing that, and I don't mind acknowledging that the previous govern­ ment initiated that. -(Interjection)- No, I'm not at all. That's right.

We are pursuing the electrification of rail way. We want to pursue the electrolosis of water to produce hydrogen. We have a good long-term resource strength and we should have confidence in the long-term future of Manitoba, and we on this side do, despite the fact that group keeps moaning and groaning that we don't have a future any morem we believe in our future. Now, I want to turn in the few moments I have left to the whole statements regarding whether we are fit to govern or not, and I've heard statements like that before. They're despic able statements.

They've been made often in campaigns, in the heat of campaigns. They are a vicious carry-over from a sad

chapter in our past and should be buried. Possib ly I'm too sensitive about this, but when I look at circumstances where someone would say, the people who in large measure are unfit to govern, unfit to govern by background, by philos ophy and so on, but have listed the other things, listed phil osophy and you know all red-baiting he goes through, the other point was background. Well, look at the backgrounds of us. We can open our backgrounds up, we don't have things to hide.

There is an ethnic bias that can be raised though, and I refer back to the 1974 campaign where people were concerned about that type of statement being made before and I quote: "One of the best examples of how the Conservatives are fanning prejudice in this cam­ paign is a recent four-page pamphlet distributed in Winnipeg South by candidate Sterling Lyon. It is a high ly selective sometimes patently distorted picture.

In this election I'm not running against the Liberals, I'm running against the Trudeau Libera ls, there really is a difference; that's why so many real Liberals are voting Progressive Conservative this time." And there's an ad that he put out, chock-full of things in the middle of the ad are three names: Jean Marchand, Keith Spi­ cer, Marc Lalonde, two francophone Ministers and the Commissioner of Languages, nationa lly. Out of the blue, no explanation, just put in there.

That to me was despica ble politics, raising the whole notion of back­ ground the way that was done, whether intentiona lly or unintentiona lly, someone who's been around as long as he tells us he's been around and someone who's been a Premier of this province should know better than that. I say that approach is completely and totally unacceptab le in this Legislature -and the peo­ ple on this side of the House wi ll not allow anything like that to be pushed in an intentional way or an unintentional way. That is comp letely unacceptable. I switch now to the petroleum package that is in the Throne Speech.

I wi ll be introducing three bi lls this session that together form a petroleum package with which this government will make clear its intentions with regard to royalties and t