Manitoba Committee Hansard — 23 May 1974 (Management Commission Committee, Sitting 3, 30th Legislature, 1st Session)

30-1-ma3

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS COMMITTEE !l:OO p.m., Thursday, May 23, 1974 CHAIRMAN: Nr. J. C. Gottfried. 51 HR. CHAIR.'IAN: Order please. The committee will come to order. We have our quorum. The bills under consideration this evening are the following and I'll read them through for the convenience of the members. The first one is No. 4.

an Act to amend The Municipal Act. No. 25,

an Act to validate an agreement made between the Provincial Exhibition of Manitoba, the City of Brandon and the Government of Manitoba. No. 30,

an Act to amend Tue Municipal Assessment Act. N�:>. 38,

an Act to amend the City of \<linnipeg Act (1). No. 45,

an Act to amend

an Act to repeal

an Act to validate and confirm a certain agreement between the Town of Dauphin and the Rural Municipality of Dauphin. No. 46,

an Act to amend The City of Hinnipeg Act (2). No. 59,

an Act to validate By-law No. 3269 of The Town of Dauphin. Are there any members on the floor, anyone on the floor who wishes to make a presentation this evening? Will you please advance to the microphone and turn your name over to the Clerk, your occupation and the Bill that you wish to speak on. MR. R. A. WANKLING: My name is Richard A. Wankling. I am a councillor on the City of Winnipeg Council and I wish to make representation with respect to Bill 46, an amendment to The City of Winnipeg Act. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. HR. C. CHAPPEL: My name is Charles Chappel. I'm a lawyer and I wish to make representation with regard to

Section 102 of Bill 38,

an Act to amend The City of Winnipeg Act (1). that? MR. CHAIRMAN: I didn't quite get the first name. Would you mind repeating MR. CHAPPEL: Charles Chappel. MR. CHAIRMru�: Charles Chappel. Are there any others. I would like to ask the members of the committee at this time that since we are using our recording equipment, will you please speak clearly into the microphone, I understand they're having trouble deciphering the tapes. The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, could you give the committee any indication of when we will have the transcripts of the last committee meeting? MR.

CHAIRMAN: I have no idea but I could ask the Clerk. Do you have any idea? -- (Interjection) -- The drafts aren't finalized so at the earliest it will be some time next week so I've been informed. MR. GRAHAM: Nobody has subpoenaed any of them - have they? MR.

PAivLEY: I 'm not testing this but I 'm wondering the value of transcripts for this particular session tonight because, you know, the last meeting was two to three weeks ago and the set won't be ready until next week and I do know tha t it involves a lot of time and cost preparing these transcripts and there's probably a chance that we'll be out of the House before we would obtain the transcripts for tonight. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Graham. MR. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, the reason I raise the issue is that the presenta tion that was made on behalf of the Rural Municipalitv of Dauphin varied considerably from the written presentation and I thought it might be valuable to members if we could have that. MR. SCIIREYER: Well, I think, Mr.

Chairman, that problem can be dealt with simply by virtue of the fact that we need hot take this bill referred to third reading stage until after the tape is available; I think that would take care of the problem. lvith respect to tonight the--I think it tvould be desirable if transcripts be made in any case for the record and those making presentations tonight hopefully have copies for distribution so that will speed the process a bit. MR. CHAIRHAN: Connn ittee agreed? (Agreed) I call therefore then on the first speaker, Mr. Richard Wankling, who makes presentation on Bill 46. HR. WANKLI:-.G: Thank you, Nr.

Chairman. Mav I firstlv sav I had expected His lvorship Hayor Juba to be here this evening and I expect that he probably will be here to make representation to you. We have been or I have been directed as a member of the official delegation of the City to bring comment to you with respect to Bill 46, and I must confess, Hr. Chairman, that I do not have a t�ritten text to give to you but rather have the copy of the bill that I would go through •.•

52 May 23, 1974 MR. CHAIRMAN: That'll be satisfactory. MR. WANKLING: .•• copy of the bill that I would go through and make reference to some of the specific amendments that are indicated in the bill and try to represent the position of the City,if you will,with respect to some points that have been raised, although not always all necessarily indicated as an amendment in Bill 46. MR. CHAI&��: Mr. Wankling, I'd like to call to your attention the fact that the Mayor has just entered the room. MR.

WANKLING: I appreciate that and if I may just speak in detail to some of the suggested amendments I'm sure the Mayor has his own text that he would like to give to the Committee. On the first page, Mr. Chairman, of Bill 46, Item No. 3 makes reference to a new

section Item 9(1.1), the Mayor elected at large. And I wish to record with you the position of the City Council that they are in favour of this particula r section. Any sections, Mr. Chairman, that I do not make reference to I think that you might accept that we are concurring unless my legal colleagues from the City have any specifics that they might make reference to in some of the technical changes that are suggested by some of the other sections on the bill. With respect to Item 9(1.2) .•. MR. SCHREYER: Hr.

Chairman, I 'm sure that Mr. \�ankling as everyone else would like to save time wherever possible and I might indicate that with respect to 9(1.2) that we have an amendment to propose simply deleting that section. For the reason that because of the supplementary report of the Boundaries Commission which is making a recommendation of verv limited application that we hope to bring in the actual amendment describing any boundarv change into the bill which remove� the necessity of 9(1.2). MR. 1-lANKLING: It was my intention to express opposition to the section, Mr. Chairman. MR. SCHREYER: You agree, Mr.

Wankling, that it's desirable to delete it. MR. WANKLING: Yes, I agree wholeheartedly, Mr. Premier. Does this have anything then to do with - as you go down to No. 13 in the Bill which is

Section 20, subsection 5. "It further states that the Lieutenant-Governor-in- Council (

a) can change the name of a community" etc., which I think already exists in the Act, but in addition to that there are other sections change one or more or all of the community boundaries and "(

c) establish or disestablish community committees and vary the wards which comprise any community following the review referred to in this section." Well again it seems to me that sort of tailgates on to

Section 9 (1. 2). MR. SC!LREYF.R: Well, Mr. Chairman, if I may on a point of order again to save time, the objection is noted and I simply want to advise that because it does tailgate as Mr. Hankling says onto 9(1.2), this too will be-- an amendment is ready here to delete this section. It will become unnecessary by virtue of the Boundaries Commission Report which has just been received. HR. 1-!A:'!KLINC: Thank you again, Hr. Chairman. Nm.r if I may move on Page 4 of the Bill. Actually I'm taking these in sequence, Mr. Chairman, and this is not something that is suggested as an amendment in the bill and I bring it forward for your attention relative to

Section 37 of the Act, which

section is a delegation of authority to Standing Committees. It does not however in

Section 37 seem to make clear whether council can delegate anv authorities or any obvious authority or any of its tasks if vou will to the Executive Policy Committee. It will give a certain delegation of authoritY to the three standing committees, that is Finance, Works and Operations and Committee of Environment, but does not seem to allow council to delegate any authority to the Executive Policy Committee in order for them to possibly - in order to carry out the business of the city and to expedite the business of the city in an efficient manner.

It would seem to us and it's our opinion that if some authorities could be delegated to Executive Policy Committee it certainly would help in perhaps dav to dav operations rather than having to wait always for a council meeting to rati fv certain actions that the Citv feels it should take. And so we put that out for your consideration, that some authorities may be delegated to Executive Policy Committee without being precise about what authorities could be delegated. It seems reasonable. that if you can delegate to standing committees vou should be able to delegate to the Executive Policy Committee as well.

Carrying on further from there, Mr. Chairman, the

Section 43 of the Act is amended by �dding thereto immediately after clause (

e) thereof the following clause as subsection (f): "The Deputy Mayor ex officio" which means that the Deputy Mayor would be added to, on an ex officio basis, to the Board of Commissioners.

May 23� 1974 (MR. WANKLING cent '

d) clause. 53 The coUDCil has gone on reoord as �rting that

Section 44. It's really just a questioo., Mr. Olaizrnan. It says that

Section 44 of the Act is repealed and I think the question basically is wey that is the case and perhaps sarebody will have an explanation for that. Further on Page 5 of the bill there is introduced a :restriction on exercise of powers by the Finance Cannittee and again I 'm really asking for an explanaticn of what this is intended to do and perhaps saoo netbers of the Cannittee or Mr. M::Nairnay or sarebody might be able to explain what the intention of that might be. we cx>ncur in your anendnents with :respect to the ambulance bylaws and the ability of the City to establish ambulance service in the City.

A nunber of these are tedmi.cal amendtl'en ts but they are amendnen1S which will allow the City I think to do scme things that they have not been able to do up to OCM. I think it's in line particularly with respect to the anbulance cne, it's in line with legislation that is before the Hoose right now with respect to the whole province in that particular area . 1\qain on Page 9 of the bill there is a sugge sticn there that sub

section 578:1 2 of the Act is repealed and again I ask the question why this is being repealed. Maybe if I had asked our solicitor he might have given me an explan aticn as to why it should be repealed. MR. SCHREYER: That was requested. MR. WliNKLING: '!hen I should have asked the solicitor. I WQlld like to also, Mr. Otainnan, make reference to Secticn 653 of the Act which is the enviramental inpact review section. This appears en Page 306 of the actual City of Winnipeg Act. I would express a view of ccnoern with respect to this section.

I app reciate that it does have perhaps cne saving 'WOrd in it and that is the word "may " significantly affect the quality of the hunan enviroment. Insofar as the secticn itself is concerned I think , Mr.

Chaizrnan, that perhaps it�s not a bad secticn but we find it fran the City of Winnipeg point of view to be a rather discrlminatocy type of secticn that it seems to be applicable atly to the City of Winnipeg and to no other rmm icipal governnent in the Province of Manitoba nor to the Province of Manitd:>a itself nor to private develqm:mt within the City or arr:t other place in the province and we find this cne a little hard to swallow that when injunctions can be served • • • MR. OIAIR-mN: Mr. Urusld. MR. URIJSKI: Mr. Chaizrnan, on a point of oroer. Just for clarificaticn, Mr.

Wankling, your remarks now are they being directed to arr:t particular anendnent in this bill or are you just going • • • MR. WANKLING: I'm son:y. I'm talking about

Section 653 of the Act itself, of the Act itself, not of the bill. MR. U1U)K!: Not of the bill that is being presently prpposed. MR. W1\NKI.Th[;: '!hat is correct. But it seems to me, Mr. Cllainnan, if I may with respect if there are sate things that we feel have not been oovered by the bill it's not unreasonable to suggest sane ccnsideration at least. '!here are sections of the Act that I have made reference to that are not cx>ntained within the bill, I app :teciate that. MR. OIAIR-mN: Mr. P&!mi.er. MR. SCliREYER: well, Mr.

Chainnan, while it is true that the very much understood procedure of Camd.ttees of the Hoose dealing with bills is that we deal cnly with the actual secticns of the bill before us, nevertheless it is usually difficult to make a clear and clean separation and rather than waste tine in a procedural wrangle, since it is sooewhat related to other sections of the bill, we could take note of the City�s case in that respect. But I should also point out to Mr.

Wankling that I den ' t believe that arr:t representatioo. was hitherto received fran the City with :respect to that particular secticn and so we have mede no provision in this bill on it. I don't mean to .inply that we would have necessarily even if we had but it's not as though it has arne forward fran the City as a request dealing on that section. MR. WANKLING: No, that is true, Mr. Premier.

But this may be an eleventh hour pitch if you will but nevertheless if there is to be arr:t consideraticn it seems to me not unreascnab le to raise it at this point. '!his is when the bill is being dealt with and if there are in our q>inion an:issions, perhaps we CIWld sugg est this . If I 'm out of order well then I 'm out of order. MR. CHAIR-mN: Proceed.

54 May 23, 1974 MR. WANKLING: '!here were two or three other matters if I may, Mr. <llail:man, views nDre than anythinq and they don't tie in specifically with any SU9gested anendnents in the 1\ct and along the SCille line I � as the item I roon ti<Xled a IIOllellt ago .

I would like to give you the view of the council with respect to sane matters reganling the City, the first cne being that the - if I may just read these , Mr. 0\ainnan. 1. 'lhis council is qJpOSed to the c:xnoept of six cx:mmmity camti.ttees corres ponding in boundaries to the six administrative districts of Worlts and <¥rations. '1his was agreed to in the affinnative by the city council. 2. '1his council is q;JpOSed to any substantial change in nuriler or boundaries of the cumunit}t camti.ttees. 3. '1his oouncil is c.pposed to any substantial reduction in the ntlliJer of cnmcillors. 4. 'ltrl.s cnmcil s� the ward system. s. '1his cnmcil suworts the oanoept of maximized participation by citizens in w:ban 90\'erilllle!lt and therefore takes the positioos outlined in points 1 and 4. 6. 'ltrl.s OOI.Ulcil reiterates its request that the Inner City Joint CCJmunity Ccmni.ttee be abolished so that the six individual a:mnittees of the inner city and their citizals may begin to enjoy the saroo potential of citizen participatioo as the rest of the city.

I give that to you by wey of info:z:matioo as to a majority position taken by the OOI.UlCil in those particular matters even thoogh I app reciate that they are oot specifically dealt with by Bill 46. NCM if I may be all O!tlled, Mr. Clla.innan, just to give a personal view with respect to me or two items. MR. CE\IIMl\N: Mr. PrEmier. MR. SOIREYER: Mr. <llainnan, Il'm WCI'ldering if it \tlO\ll dn't better suit everyone if Mr.

Wankling were to, before he does that, were to indicate just - or to elaborate pe:dlaps on the veey last point he made because as I understood him it seems that there is present provision in the 11ct to carey out the course of actioo he referred to. MR. Wl\NKLING: That is the abandomlent of the Inner City Joint CCJmunity Ccmni.ttee? MR. SOIREYER: Yes. MR. Wl\NKLING: Yes, you're right, Mr. Premier, I agree. I mention it to you as a matter of infonnatioo. MR. SOIREYER: But you do agree that the present 1\ct does all.c:M. MR.

WANKLING: I believe so and I'll defer to the solicitor if he wishes to ccmnent m it but I believe that this is true . May I proceed, Mr. Clla.innan? MR. CE\IIM\N: '!be point is well taken. Proceed Mr. Wankling. MR. WJ\NKLING: '!hank yol. '!here seems to have arisen in the past six or eight Jronths sane questioo as to the positioo of the reputy Mayor in the City of Winnipeg and I see before ll'e sitting oo the Ccmni.ttee my pledeoessor in that particular positioo.

I'm not here to argue the position insofar as I persooa.l.ly am oonoemed, I would like to say first of all that I think insofar as the position of Mayor in the City of Winnipeg is c:cnoerned that I think that the respalSibilities with which the �1ayor is charged it is very difficult for one individual to carey out all of those functiOJ"'..s. And I'm sure that the Mayor will agree with that. That happens to be my view on the particular stbject. In order to alleviate that situation it seems not unreasonable that pe:dlaps sane of the duties if you will could be vested in the reputy Mayor's position.

I say this IIDSt particularly with respect to the Deputy Mayor being able to sit legally with the Board of Ccmni.ssioners in order to help provide that kind of link between the top administrative and the top political am1 of the city. '1trl.s is one of the reasoos why we had supported that position fran the city and I presume cne of the reasons why you have introduced that into the 1lct and so I speak to that nost specifically, that I think that the kind of structure that we ncM have with the City of Winnipeg, whether people accept this structure or not, leads us into a type of positioo where there is a need , a strong need, for a link between the political group if you will that is in the majority posi tion in the city OOI.Ulcil in order to tey to keep infonred back and forth as between the political body of the city, that is the majority group of the city council and hopefully to all other nenbers of OOlll1cil.

I believe that all rrembers of council are entitled to sane sort of ccmmmi cation. I

May 23 , 1974 (MR. WJ\NKLING cxmt' d) • • • • • don't believe that this has c:xx:urred up till ru:M but I feel persmally that in order to tJ:y to explain sare of the things to the Board of Ccmnissicners that neniJers of council feel and vice versa it does help to provide that kind of link. There has been I 'm sure IIDSt of you would have 55 ooserved that over the past two or three years the oouncil has not yet - it is gradually in rey view- but it has not yet cxme to the positicm of acceptance of a ccmnissicmer-cxmnittee type of structure and we are gradually I think IIDVinq in that directicm.

HcMever, as you all know there is an election CCilling up this fall and this may change sanewhat but I don't think that the positicns that I'm speaking about here should be positicms that are tailored if you will to individuals. They should be tailored to a structure that this city is ru:M, in rey view evolving into and should allow for the easiest kind of ccmnunicaticm back and forth between the political body and the top administrative ann of the city and I wish to make that view known to you.

Again I believe that perhaps rey predecessor perhaps does not ccmcur in that position, but that� to be rey particular position en this matter and I wanted to make that view known to you. With those few remarks Mr. Chainnan I'll stand to be questioned. MR. OIAIR-IAN: '!hank you for your ccmoems oonoerning Bill 46 Mr. Wankling. Are there any questicms fran the ccmnittee? Mr. Marion. MR. MARICN: Mr.

Wankling with respect to the Deputy Mayor's positicm I think that I cxncur with the fact that the Deputy Mayor should be ex officio in all of the :roles inclt.ding that :role that you speak about on 1 ex officio in the absence of the Mayor, en replacing the Mayor cm all of the functions of the Mayor but I did hesitate as yru mentioned, I did hesitate to accept the ex officio positien of the Deputy Mayor on the Board of Ccmnissiooers because of the figurehead character that we wish to place the Mayor in.

NcM I wmder if you oould broaden the reasons for stating - you nentiooed about a representative of the majority group of oouncil being en the Board of Ccmnissioners but I think that it goes further than this.

I think that there is a political link required and if it were inCJ.II'bent on the Mayor's office to signify to the Deputy Mayor that the Mayor will not be able to be at the Board of Carmissioners, would this not fulfil the need for the joo being filled by the Deputy .Mayor ex officio in his capacity in the absence of the Mayor and would it not give the majority group that political link at one in the same time without deterring fran this dual role that sare people seem to want to create in the administraticn of the City of Winnipeg, the political administraticn. MR. WANKLING: Well let me sa!;{ this Mr.

Olai nnan, it was, I had sare oonsiderable discussion with His Worship at the time that I was hmoured by being mcde the Deputy Mayor and we searched the legal aspects of this and it was deened really that regardless of whether the Mayor was able to attend the Board of Carrnissicners mee tings, he being in the city if you will, but regardless of whether he was able to attend or not, it did not seem to be legally possible to designate the Deputy Mayor to take his place at canni.ssioners mee tings and this was a legal opinion, rightly or wrcngly)so that until His Worship was in fact out of the city the Deputy Mayor did not assllllE! in any WB!;{, shape or fo:r:m, any of his functicns, cne of which would be attending at the Board of Ccmnissioners.

But notwithstanding that aspect of it, again I go back to the point where I believe that the kind of tasks with which the Mayor is charged, the Mayor's positicm is charged, I find to be tantanDI.mt to being a Lieutenant-Q:Jvemor, a Premier and a Speaker of the House all wr<IR'ed up in one position.

I find that to be a rather difficult role for any one individual to tJ:y to fulfil and rey thinking runs to the, to t.Iying to vest if you will, sore part of this authority in the Deputy Mayor's pOsition that will help or will assist in two WB!;{S� will assist the Mayor hopefully in the canying out of his functicms and will assist in t.Iying to create that kind of liaison between the political body; and there is no use kidding aroond, the majority groop en oouncil cbviously is the one group that will appoint the Deputy Mayor rut of their nurbers and that that perscm wcu1d be able to fo:r:m that link between the BoaM of camrl.ssicners and the political body and for those reasons I think that the Deputy Mayor if you will, having at least a legal ex officio authority to sit at the Board of Carrnissicners mee tings that this will help to fulfil that kind of a situation.

MR. OIAIR-IAN: Are there any further questicms? Mr. Graham. MR. GRAID\M: Thank yru,Mr. Cllai. nnan. 'Ihrough you to Mr. Wankling; the a:.mnents that you have made iust recently I think have been most fruitful to merrbers

56 May 23, 1974 (MR. GIWrnM oc:nt' d) • • • • • of this c:xmni.ttee but I woold like to pose to you what I consider to be the original thinking of those that drafted the bill and their position at that t:im:! in thinking that the mayor shou ld be elected by the council and if that type of prooeduJ:e had progressed, then wall.d you have seen the same problem:� exis ting as those that you are posing to us at the present time? MR.

WANKLING: I think Mr. <llainnan, if I may, there is not just a questioo in my mind of having to educate if you will the rrBliJers of COIB'lcil but you would have to re-educate the public quite frankly.

I've had sane long and hard searches in my mind as to whether the Mayor shou ld be elected at large or f:tan within the c:ouncil>but having sel:'Ved in the capacity of Mayor in a smaller cx.mm.mi.ty, that position and that persoo who fulfils that positioo is the persoo to whan many peq:>le orient themselves in their oamunity and in years gone by I have had requests CX'IIe to ne that there was no W<J¥ that I oould cope with them necess arily as an individual but found that the individual councillor in a ward or whatever oould haOO le that and I would take the kind of ness age that was given and relay it back to the oomcil and so on.

What I'm really trying to say is that peq:>le in the cx.mm.mi.ty accept the fact that the Mayor is the person that they elected f:tan the total cx.mm.mi.ty and I l:xM to that kin:l of a desire if you will on the part of the public to elect their Mayor at large.

It's still in my view; though I oane back again , there still, it's a physical i.npossibility for that individual to fulfil the task with which he is charged and that there has to be sane way and I suggest that the Deputy Mayor positioo is the W<J¥ perhaps where you do get the election if you will of a <llainnan in a sens e, of a political group within the council as the Deputy Mayor and that persoo can try to lead the W<J¥ through legis latioo that the city and llqlefully that the executive policy c:xmni.ttee would be trying to put into law if you will for the city and this seems to ne to provide the vehicle so that you can achieve the election of the Mayor at large without I think taking <May his authority.

I.et ne also say one other thing however, the public and I can say this because I have served in a Mayoral capacity in another camunity, the public thinks that the Mayor makes all the decis ions. The Mayor does not make all the decisions. It's the council that makes the decisions, the Mayor is perfectly entitled, as arr:1 other merrber of council to try to lead the wey and give certain guidance and so on and so forth but the Mayor does not make the decisions and I think that that should be made very clear to the public and to merrbers of COI.DlCil. MR. CHAIRotl\N: Mr. Grahan MR. GIWIAM: Just for clarification Mr.

Chainnan, just les t there be sane mistmderstanding.

I agree that the Mayor shou ld be elected at large but the question that I pos e is ooe that those that designed the original Bill, having cx:mnitted themself to a course where they had prqx)Sed that the Mayor be elected by the council and having done that then their course of thinking and their prqx)Sals would not fores ee sanething that has occurred and oould occur in arr:1 other jurisdiction, where you have the position of the Mayor a.l.Dost divorced f:tan that of the council, because they are elected sepa rately and there is the pos sibility and I think that it probably would have not occurred if the original drafting had left the Mayor elected at large in the thinking of the group.

I think that probably they might have see n these problens and corrected it at the original tine. MR. Wl�NKI.JR;: My recollection Mr. Graham, to you through the Chainnan, was that the original p:rqxJSal was that the Mayor be elected f:tan within the council and then it was changed to have the Mayor elected at large for the firs t electioo ally and thereafter, by the council.

In retrospect I think now with a.l.Dost three years' experience in this se t-up I don't see anything wratg with having the Mayor elected at large and that the problems that I pos ed and that you pose can be satisfied in another W<J¥ and that is by giving sane posi tioo if you will of authority to a person elected f:tan within.·.the council, in this case, the DepUty Mayor's position. MR. CHAIRotl\N: Do you wish to speak Mr. f't)ug? MR. IDtX;: Mr.

Wankling do you find that the Mayor being elected at large and the Deputy Mayor being appo inted by council, does this create arr:1 split in arr:1 way between merrbers of council and the mayor and the peq:>le? Between the three levels ? MR. WJINI<LING: Not particularly. No. I really can't elaborate on that. I st.gJCJSe that it presents that pos sibility but I don't think that's the case. MR. CHAIR>IAN: Mr. Jchnstoo.

May 23, 1974 MR. FRANK JOHNS 'IOO: Mr. Wanklinq, the references to the Deputy Mayor in this bill or the Winnipeg Act and you nentioned you were a mayor in a cx.mmmi.ty 57 and I think YCA.l kncM that sare of us here were sitting on different councils at � time, not all of us. It seems to me that the elected netber - there are cannittees set up- the cann ittees are set up basically to take the load off everybody, it's spread through canni ttee work and the same as we are sitting in this carmittee, any narber of the legislature can attend this Ccmnittee.

He may not vote at this CCmni.ttee if he is not appointed to it but he can attend this Ccmnittee. It does seem rather strange to me that we are legislating as to what one menber of the council can do as Deputy Mayor or what arry nenbers of the council can do as far as attending mee tings is ca1cerned . Now as far as being the Deputy Mayor is oono cemed I think that the working agreement between the two of them because of load and heavy work has to certainly be considered but the legislating of what mee tings elected menbers can attend is very strange to me . MR. WANKLING: Just ooe cannent on that, Mr.

Jdmston, through yCA.l, Mr. Chainnan. There's nothing in the 1\ct that precludes arry nenber of council fran attending any standing cann ittee mee ting incltxting Executive Policy camdttee and so on.

But with respect, the Board of Ccmni.ssianers is the tq> adni.nistrative ann of the City and they have to operate their mee tings covering a multitude of problems and situations and so on and being the administrative bcxly rather than the political body I would think that it would be alnDst inplss ible for that body to functicn as a board if every nerber of council were to attend their meet ings, quite frankly, and I think that for the reascns that I've stated before that if cne or two menb:!rs of council are designated to do that kind of thing, to provide that link, then in my view it's legislatively sound .

But if the Board had to try to �te with 50 councillors hanging over their shoulders it just would be i..np)s sible. MR. 000 �: Mr. Jdmston. MR. FRANK JOHNS'lm: YCA.lr recarmenda ticns then as I see them is that the Deputy Mayor or the Mayor and one other persm and supposedly the Deputy Mayor or elected netber shCA.lld be allowed to attend those mee tings. I might say that you're right when you explain it that they'd have a tough time operating with 50 elected menbers there. MR. WANKLING: Yes. I'm sorry that this discussion has centered arotmd the position of Deputy Mayor.

I'm only trying to point out a vehicle that I think will work and will allow for � cxmnunication. It's certainly not going to SIOOOth all the rough rides as beboleen a board of cannissicners and the political body of the city but it in my view can go sare way in that directicn and I, with all respect, submit that it is, again subni.t that it is �sible for the Mayor to adti.eve all of the functions with which he's charged. MR. 000 �: Mr. Premier. MR. sarnEY'ER: Mr. Chainnan, I woold just like to ask Mr.

Wankling if I understood him correctly that we should go beymd what we have provided for in the legislation here in tenns of specifying the duties of a Deputy Mayor. I say quite frankly that we have taken the teJ:m "Deputy" very literally) meaning that in the absence of the Mayor that he fulfills the role of the Mayor. I 'm not aware that any jurisdicticn has achieved with success an attstpted stipulaticn in law of duties of a Deputy. Would Mr.

Wankling not agree that this is l.arg'ely a matter of internal working out and tmderstanding, that in the absence of the Mayor or in the absence of the Premier the Deputy carries out the role and function. In the absence fran the jurisdicticn of -by the Mayor - if he is absent fran the jurisdiction then that role and functicn is carried out by the Deputy. If he is not absent fran the jurisdicticn but absent fran a meeting the Deputy fills in. But can you go beyond that realistically in your opinion? MR. WANKLING: Well maybe it's unfortunate, Mr. Olai.rman or Mr.

Prenier through Mr. <llainnan, that this is centering aroond that particular positim. Maybe we should be talking in order to try to fulfill this function about a Hoose Leader if you will rather than a Deputy Mayor. I awreciate what you 're saying that the Deputy Mayor fills in for the Mayor whenever the Mayor is not there. '!he int&pre tation that we have insofar as the 1\ct is coocerned is that he only fulfills that function when the Mayor is in fact absent fran the city. In all respect, Sir, it's difficult for a perscn to jmp in junp out jUI\

l) in junp out into cngoing kind of matters with which the city is dealing and I'm sure you find it so insofar as the province is Ca'lCerned as well. To begin with a person as I recall in the .Act was awointed Deputy Mayor but wasn 't even on the Executive Policy Ccmnittee but still

58 May 23, 1974 (MR. W1INKLING oont 'd) .was required to fulfill the positicn of the Mayor when the Mayor was not there . NcM that was remedied I think the first year under Bill 109 if I recall oorrectly so that at least that perscn had sane ORJQrttmity of oontinuity to carry on in the position of the Mayor when the Mayor was not there. I'm sorry if I i.Irplied that I thalght that there should be nnre in this CllelC1nent.

I perscnally feel that you have indicated that in this case yoo. describe it as Deputy Mayor, that that person can in fact legally sit with the Board of Ck:mnissioners and tl:y to oonvey to them sort of the political sense of different matters and I think that's sarething that's worthwhile tl:ying quite frankly. I would suggest that you s'llf.PC)rt this anendment and give it a tzy. I app reciate there's an election caning up this fall and whoever is in the positioo can have a whack at it. MR. OJAIIM\N : Mr. Prenier. MR. SOIREYER: One other request, Mr. Cha:il:man. Mr.

Wanklil'X], you indi cated that you were Mayor of Fort Garry at one time at which t:i.roo you were elected at large ••• MR. WANKLING: '!hat's oorrect . MR. SOIREYER: • • • which was the oonventicnal way to do it and the D:!pllty was hcwever elected by oouncil I assume. MR. WANKLING: '!hat's correct . MR. SOIREYER: I :knew of no other wey in which deputies in fact oould be elected except by oouncil, at least that's been the OCiti'IDl practice. 'lherefore because you were elected at large and the Deputy was elected by oouncil was there a'Ir:f inherent prci>lem? Inherent in that fact. MR. WANI<LIN3: No.

I'm sorry, I hc:pe I didn't sugg est that there was. MR. SOIREYER: No but I asked you the question for clarification since a previous question had intimated that because the Mayor is elected at large under the terms of 'lhe City of Winnipeg llct and under this bill insures its continuation, the Mayor's office being filled by election at large. and because the D:!pllty is elected by oouncil that there is sane inherent oonflict1 and I 'm nerely asking the questicn to ask you if yoo. do not agree that this in fact has been a very ca:t1tDI1 practice over the years. MR. WANKLING: 'lhat's right. You're right.

May I ask a question? Vilere is the inherent oonflict? Where did I inply that there was • • • MR. SOIREYER: No, I'm sorry. You did not inply but one of the questions put to you. MR. WANKLING: No, no. And I answered no to the question. MR. OIAIIM\N: Mr. Graham. MR. GIWWf: Mr. <llail:man, through you to Mr. Wankling. 'lhe Board of Comlissimers is c:c:��prised of the Ccmni.ssianer of Environnent is it? MR. WANKLING: There's the Chief Ccmni.ssianer and the C'amlissianer of Works and �raticns, camd.ssioner of Envinmnent, camd.ssioner of Finance.

Four members plus the Mayor, ex officio 1'ISTiJer of the Board of Ccmni.ssioners. MR. GIWWf: � you have three main standing camrl.t tees have you? MR. WANKLING: '!hat's correct . Plus the Executive Nlicy Ccmni.ttee. MR. GR11IW1: Camlit tee of the Envi:J:oment , a Ccmni.ttee of • • • MR. WANI<LING: Enviroment, Worlts, �atians and Finance. MR.

GRAID\M: I n your opinion could a board of camrl.ssiooers won as efficiently as the present board if the board ccnsisted of the Ccmni.ssianer or the Olief Camlissioner, the camd.ssioner of Envirammt and the 01ail:man of EmTiraJnent, the Camri.ssioner of Finance and the Chainnan of Finance, the Camrl.s•ioner of Worlts and �rations and the Olaiz:man of Worlcs and �rations and the Mayor? MR. WJINKLING: 'lhat presents another possibility. Yes.

Excepting that we're starting to create in my view ccmnittees of substantial size and we already have three standing ocmni ttees an the Council - four as a matter of fact including the Executive Policy camd.ttee which are enoll!Dus in size in tenns of ccmnittee me:rtbers hip that are not really necessacy - that is fran an operative point of view. � to take the Board of Ck:mnissioners, the foo.r cx:mnissioners and the Mayor and then add three mare mstbers, the chainnen of the respective oamti.t tees it J'lCM makes it a cx:mnittee of eight and here we go again.

It may achieve a better link and oo ordinatioo if you will with the coonc il as a result of doing that. As a matter of fact one of the ccmnittee chaimten is here and he may like to answer your question. I dal't personally see this as being recessarily better than the sugge stion and I again sey it's unfortunate that it's oentering on the position of Deputy Mayor. I t CX>Uld be House leader if you will or whatever you want to call him - he or she - to won with the Board of Catrnissicners. But you start to get into a size where it

May 23, 1974 59 (MR. WANKLING cant' d) • • • • • is UJ'Mieldy am it may be an experiment worth txyil¥:1 but I would sugg est maybe we follow the other route �at the manent arrl if that doesn't prove to be sa tisfacto:ey then yoo consider sane other nethod . MR. CllAIRWi: Mr. Graban. MR. GIWUIM: Mr. Chainnan, I only posed it as a questim. I think there axe many pecple who have a feeling that because a ccnrnittee or a board increases in size that the efficiency decreases. I persmally don't subscribe to that philosqily but there axe many that do. MR.

WANKLING: I would like to sey that I felt that 11¥ council in Fort Gar:ey that operated with seven pecple was every bit as efficient if not noreso than the 50-uatber council that we' re now worldng with in the city. I, with due respect, Sir, sugg est that sane of the large projects with which the Metropolitan Govert:ment was c.hcm]ed with � .-..I.t with by a 10-merrber ootmcil as opposed to a 50-I11E!!IiJer oouncil. So because sanet.:.1ing happens to get lan;er does not necessarily make it better. MR. CllAIIM!IN: Mr. Premier. MR. SCliREYER: l.))es it necessarily make it worse? MR.

WANI<I..JN:;: Not necessarily but the premise seem; to be that the bigger it is that the better it is and I sey that that's not true. A MFlmER: The IOOSt efficient is one . MR. WANKLING: Pardal me? MR. PJIWLEY: 'Ihe nost efficient might be one . MR. WANKLING: well the nost efficient is one . I think eve:eybody would have to ap:ee with that. He'd better be very benevolent. 'Ihe Mayor has been just that an a IUiiJer of occas icns. MR. OIAIIM\N: order please. Mr. Moo g. MR. MJUG: Mr. Chainnan, just for clarificatim before Mr. Wanklil¥:1 leaves.

Nlen I asked rum the question in regards to the Mayor being elected at Um}e and the Deputy Mayor being �inted by council I asked it for clarificatim to see if there was any friction or \ltlatever between camc:i.l melli:lers and the Mayor. I lax7il this is lmgstanding th:ro� the Province of Manitcba . We have dme this m a good many oouncils both rural and w:ban and I see nothing wrong with it. I see no reason why it wm' t WOJ:k with the present City of Winnipeg. I was asking it for info:anatim mly, not txyinq to infer that it has caused a prcblem. '!hank yoo . MR.

CllAI IM!IN: 'Ihere bein9 no further questims I wish to thank you , Mr. Wanklfl¥:J , .lor being present here with us this evening. I understand that when you approadled the mic:ropOOne you said that our Mayor JUba • • • MR. WANKLING: Yes I believe he wishes to <DU:ess yoo , Sir, and he was not in the .roan at the time but he is here now . MR. OiAIIM!IN: I think I will take rum at this tiJre then. Mayor Juba will you please - do you wish to make a p:resentatim? I was infomei earlier that you might. MR.

JUBA: Mr. <llai.nnan and IISliJers of the camdt tee, I sat there a little c:xnfused and I think I sey this with sane justificatim. 'Ihe respalSi.bilities of the Mayor and I think that yoo just had the Deputy speaking both an behalf of the City and of oourse .injecting sane personal views. At the sane time I sat here and I listened that the Deputy takes over the Mayor's positim when he's absent fran the city. Well I'm not absent fran the City and I think that the Mayor should be presenting the City's views m the varioos anendnents. I think Mr.

Graham hit the nail m the head as to what is the trouble there. '!he Act was designed in the first instance to do certain t:hi.ngs, a certa.in fom of govemnent am of course was a change. Now we hear that we have to have sane descriptim of what is the respmsi.bilities of the Deputy Mayor and outline the respmsi.bilities of the Deputy Mayor yet without t:eyinq to define what is the res ponsibility of the Mayor in the first instance. I sat here and I listened , the

interpretation of Mr. Wanklinq is that the Deputy takes over in the absence of the Mayor of the City. Sounds good. Logical. But I dm't krlo..l. It's double talk . It's really dolble talk . I don't want to bring out sane of the pn:lblems that have been created there. As one illustration) a couple of million dollars worth - I dm 't want to qive the details - and I was in the city and was even at looch hour and 11¥ duties as I interpret it had been perfonted by a Deputy. 'nlere 's many things of this sort.

I don't want to bring up any of this dirty linen , it's a persCilality clash and that's just ahoot it and a desire to build up a little enp.ire to provide pennanent enployment, steady job , because the Deputy Mayor l'lCM acoording to the city cnmcil is a steady

60 May 23, 1974 (MR. JUBA Ccat'd) ••••• joo, a full t.ime joo. � this is the case and yet when you look in the dictionary what is the definiticn of a Deputy , and I think as you interpret, as anybody would interpret the definition of Deputy is cne t:hing and yet sane peep le have their own cpinions of what is a deputy. 'lhat' s just a oonflict of personalities.

One of the reasoos I didn't like to see this gentleman sitting here because when his groop said - would like to appoint you as the Deputy, before he accepted he CGille in to see me and this is the wey I think it should be, if you want to interpret the word "Deputy " in the true sense of the word. He said, do you think they want to �t me as the Deputy? IX> you think we could work together? I said, I'd be very happy to work with you. I think our carmon interest was the City of Winnipeg. We got alcng very well and there was no prcblem whatsoever. 'lbat' s one of the :reasoos I hated to see him cane here.

In fact I guess there's others hem who sham that view. A MEMBER: For different :reasons. MR. JUBA: For different :reasons. But in all sincerity I think we have to take a look at this and what really is the prcblen and them is a prcblem and a tremendous prcblem. '!be Act being designed in one fashion and yet sane get the inpression that they have sCJte extraordinal:y powers and I don't think that this was wlla t was intended with the l'lct .

I think that if you wanted to give sane extra powers to a groop , a coo.trolling groop, that's fine and dandy. 'lbe:te's no cbjection if you want to do that • But then it should not be under the heading of the teputy Mayor. I think that all the cabinet Ministers woo ld not want a Deputy inflicted on than that may not work with then and I think that this woo ld be understandable. And this is the situation we find ourselves in in the City of Winni peg. It's very unforttmate and I dcn't think anybody is being served well by the situatim as it exists.

If you wanted to give this power to sanebody and the argment advanced sey for exant>le is that sarebody should report to the controlling group . Well if that's the case does it alweys have to be the Deputy? I took exception for exant>le when the Deputy started to sit in at the Board of Ccmni.ssi.alers mee tings. I think it interferes, It interferes witl} the cp!rations of the Board of Ccmni.ssioners and I dal't think it's fair to the other elected representatives on oounc:il. Take for exant>le you have minority graJpS . \'by should they not Jon.t what is going on in the Board of Cc.mnissioners?

Or should they be excluded? Are they not equal representatives on council? So you can see that there was sane 'W'lfairness being created them and why should - and I think it's been stated in the pmss that a spokesman for, and this was the tenn "a spokesman for" a group. Well if this is the case fine. Well have the spokesmen of all groups in that ocnmcil have the right and privilege to sit in on the Board of Cc.mnissioners meetings . I mean you've got to be fair about this because our fonn of gove rnnent is unlike that of the senior govemnents, it's entirely different.

I think that we have to :reoognize even the minorities on cotmcil and give then a right to ll:t'lcM what is going en behiDi the scenes . But the great prd:>lem around that place is - and it's quite evident now - that them is less interest with the 50-man council and there's mre disgust and disen d:lantnent bebieen the I1IE!!Ibers than I've ever seen in my life before. It's a very 'W'lfctunate situation. A lot of good members are just beoaning so disenchanted that they're not sey ing anythin g, they're not OCitlplaining , they 're just not taking too IlllCh interest. It's very very unfortunate.

What is the solutioo to the prd:>len? I thii1k gentlemen that you've got to take a .look at thiS thing OOjecti vely • 'lhere IS a nmrber Of l'!lE!ITbers On council who are sitting on standing cx:mnittees . '!here's another percentage that are left out in the oold. '!bey don't knc:M what's going on. I think the t.ime is right to put every nmiler on CX>Wlcil on a cx:mnittee and not make second rate elected repmsentatives.

Unless you do that you' re going to have a lot of prd:>len in operating that local governrent to getting deCisions, to getting planning done, it's just alm:>st impossible. '!be Executive Policy Ccmni.ttee as I interpret it, their duty to date was exactly just that, to advance policy matters, new ideas, suggestions, things that go beyond that of the standing camri.ttees or that _ _ may cut l:looOOaries and overlap general policies. '!his is not the case. A ocmnittee will report and they' 11 start all over again and start debating the issues.

I sey today , as I said a long t.ime aqo , there's a lack of oonfidence in the camdttees and the reports of the ocmnit tees. Ncixldy seE!IB to want to have any faith or regard for ocmni ttees and their repo rts. 'lbere just seE!IB to be a tUDIIO il there and it's getting worse and it's not

May 23 , 1974 61 (MR. JUBA cant' d) • • • • • getting better. Because the Act was designed to bring' about one fonn of goverment and yet no.r there's certain dlan9es Which would not have it so. I think you've got to make up your mind what wey yoo're going to go because yoo can't have a sort of a mixture of both . Yoo cannot no.r - and I possibly an closer to the situation - there's a power pley. There's a traieMous power pley there and by a minority too.

I don't want to get into this hassle between the Deputy Mayor because I oouldn ' t care - yoo knCM what I nean - '1\tlether you elect the Mayor or you do IDt: although I persooal. ly believe that that is the right wey to do it in the interests of de!rocracy. But if it neans scuttling the whole system because sane here are de t:ennined to make this Act a failure, sane are quite detennined . I'm convin ced, it's Il!f q>inicn that sane are determined to see this Act fail and sane are detennined to get rid of the cxmnissicners. It's just as s:inple as that.

Now it's a difficult thing to offer you acy suggestion '1\tlic:h would be readily acceptable to you because even in the area of the Deputy Mayor it mey � that there's -well a conflict of persmal.ittes. I don't look at it just so nuc:h as that. It goes a little further than just a conflict of perscnalities. It's txying to establish sane authority and have control by a minority, an absolute minority. I'm ve:ry fearful of this . You want to have and the pressure is here to get the Deputy for exatple to have nore power , to spell out the powers. Why? Why sholld thes e powers be spelled out?

If you want to spell out anything I think it has to be a clearcut definition of what are the responsibilities of the Mayor because yoo've been hearing double talk here. I interpret that the Deputy takes over in the absence of the Mayor. You kno.r when I 'm going to leave the city I tell the Deputy I will be lea.vi.ng. I tell him so. Am that's when he takes over the full responsi bilities. But here again what is the responsibility of the Mayor? And yet I heam here that the Deputy takes over in the absence of the Mayor fran the city.

But when you have millicns of dollars worth of debentures signed by the Deputy when the Mayor is in the city, krlcMing he's in the city and at lunch hour, that -well satething is not just right. He creates one :inpressicn yet on the other hand he doesn't practice what he preaches. Now I 'm not blaning the individual because this mey be part of an over-all plan to t:ry and take cxntml of the qleration, I don't knCM. ntere are a lot of things around there that I would like to know, there's a lot of citizens who would like to know what's going on.

I think as far as the Act is ocncenm that it seys that the Jlctinq Mayor takes over in the absence of the Mayor and I can't recall the exact word but it seys - I believe it is "in the absenoe for acy cause" I think that's the � ology used , "acy cause". If you go to the washroan you're absent fran your office. If you' re next door in n the EPC yoo' re absent. And this has been ptoVen. Now I think that should be clearly spelled Olt because the old City of Winnipeg Act made it quite clear and I think it said that - it gave the duties of the Mayor in nore detail.

I can app reciate the Act when it was drawn up in the first instance did not clearly define the role of the Mayor because it was a new ocnoept that was being introduced and therefore there was no need to define the role of the Mayor. But the old Act stated that - I 'm just trying to find it here - "or in absence fran the City or inability fran sickness or aey cause to perfom his duty" then of course that would be the responsibility of the Deputy. It clarifies it.

It states that he not necessarily has to be out of the city, he could still be in the city but if he's not capable of performing the function therefore th en the r:eputy should step in and justly so. I think that one of the things that I 'WOUld str:orv;Jly reccmnend to do is not place too much errphas is on what the respcnsibilities of the Deputy Mayor is going to be but find oot first '1\tlat is the responsibilities of the Mayor. Because the Deputy if he has all the responsibility according to the Act with this one, he's a Olainnan of Council, he' s the Chai:tlllan of EPC period. Arxl that's all.

And he has no nore power and yoo prove to ne that I 'm wroog , he has no nore power than that of a Olainnan of the Worl<s and OperatiC«'lS, EnvirOIJTe!lt or Finance Ccmni.ttee Olainnan. Lock in the Act and prove ne wrong if there shows aeywhere of the respcnsibilities and duties of the Mayor. But we have our CMn inpression of what is the responsibility of the Mayor and justly so. Regardless of what yoo put in the Act the public have their CMn opinicn en what the Mayor's responsibilities are .

So I think that in I1!f opinion what yoo should do is clarify the responsi bility of the Mayor if it's your intention to have the Mayor elected or go back to

62 May 23, 1974 (MR. JUBA cant'd) • • • • • the original fOllll that was intended in the first place. You can't have both. You've got to make up your mind what wey you're going to go and I woold suggest if you clarified the respoos ibilities of the Mayor then the respoos ibilities of the Dep.lty -you don't have to single the Deputy CAit at all - in the absence of for certain reasoos then the Deputy takes aver and give him no more pcMer. You dal't need arrJ more authority. But if you.want to have a spokesman for a controlling group give him sane other title.

Make him drlef executive of sanething you kocM or make him anything you want because sane pecple like titles. Give it to him if that's what you want. Ik> you want to create more jcbs? Fine. create l!l:)re jd:>s. Make it a full t:iire jcb. It's entirely up to yourselves. You ooo ld do that. But don't txy and create an :impression that you have sanebody here that is a deputy to the Mayor because if you look up in the dictionaey it's vexy difficult to accept because the definition woold be "the representative of". And let me tell you this muc:h.

N1en Paul Maricn was the Deplty I had the greatest respect for him and w had a vexy good relatimship and w had no prcblets. But sane have a different concept of what that role is and I was quite ccnvinoed listening to double talk when on the cne han:i the Deputy takes over in the absence of the Mayor fl:all the city and on the other han:i what has transpired is a horse of a different colour. Mr. Minister you prcbably have seen a notice calling the Official Delegation Meeting done in longhand and it CXItli!S to me and seys you've got to meet with the govertllll!l'l t.

Hell I was in the city, it was handed to me in longhan:i and caninq fran the Deputy. You sit back and you kind of wonder what the hell is goin:J on. I don't want to brin;J out arrJ dirty linen. Octd:ler is going to make a t.rerrendous decisicn cne � or another regardless of what sane think . '.lbe pecple will have their sey. But I do think ycu have responsibility now in making sane clearcut defi nition of what is the responsibility. ncn•t place eq:ilasis on the Deputy. Try and place the etphasis first m what is the responsibility of the Mayor.

Sane here get the ll'rpression that their responsibility is atininistraticn, strange as it nay seem. And yet I interpret the elected representatives urxier our"fomt .of govern nent to be a policy body, to establish policies and then turn it aver to the adni.nistraticn to administer the policies that we've laid down. '!his is not the case. A lot of our representatives feel that they want to pley the role of an administrator. Well if this is the case wll then let • s fire sme of our cxmnissicners. �·re high priced pecple.

And get the politicians to do this jcb • .And this is unfortunate that we have this type of a situatim and it's not getting better and the cxmnissicners find it vexy difficult now. 'lhey're gettin;J whacked at, criticized, dalmed and yet they're txyin;J to do the jcb. that's happening - and I sense this. '!bey don't tell me, I selSe this - that they are not novi.ng., they' re just seyin:J wll we' ll do what w have to and it's no good. Because when you start getting a morale problem the whole city suffers.

I think there's a clearcut division of responsibility, administraticn and policy. '!he elected representatives' responsibility is to establish a policy, make up your mind what you want. Once you establish it tum it aver to the adninistraticn to execute it. But sare want to get involved into the administraticn, get to knc:M what's going m behind the closed doors and I don't think it's right to get involved in the administraticn. But arr_{Wey getting back to the definition.

I think that you want to define the role of the Mayor because there is a dumge in Act fl:all the original ccncept to what is being proposed now. 'lherefore I woold sey that ycu want to outline the responsibility of the Mayor. 'lhe old Act stated that the Mayor shall be the drlef executive officer of the City and it shall be his duty to be vigilant and active at all times in causing law for the Gollertllll!l'lt of the City to be duly executed and put into force. '!hen it goes en to give you all the other aspects.

I doo't sey that you want to give him too nudl power but there is certain areas where you've got to turn around and say, what is his authority? '!hen if you define that then you kocM what is the responsibility of the Deputy. It's clearly defined when the Deputy takes over and I think the old Act described this fairly wll. If you did that you would eradicate a lot of the prd:l lems that's being created within the City Hall.

The exact wording if you wanted this I ooo ld get this for ycu because I knaioT when I 'm beat, you :know what I mean, and I just sit back and wait, you knew what I mean, to see what they're going to do next . I :really don't have too nuch authority, in fact none except being the chair man aoco:rding to the .Act. I have as little as any in that council with these few

May 23, 1974 63 (MR. JUBA oont 'd) • • • • • exceptions of being the chail:man . I would SUI}3e8t that if you would look at this thinq c:bjectively to _define the role and then of course strenqthen the hand of the administration. Try and separate policy f:tan adninistratioo and this is another problE!tl. I've said this f:tan Day One when we sat down under the new Act and I tried to tell them my opinioo, what the role of the EPC, what ftmctioo we should be perfonni.ng .

Of OOU%'Se I didn't get to first base but here again today I did the same thing . 1lnd the situation is degenerating to a point that there's so many oouncillors and if you think that I haven't got a fair evaluatioo just talk to them, see if they're disenchanted or oot . '!here's been a tmnendoos waste of man - boors in there and we' re ruining a lot of good elected representatives who are losing interest in their local government and yet it's at the loss of the entire City. It's very unforbmate. '!be other aspect,I think that we should put all IIE!1ilers oo a CC1111li ttee.

Scma sha.lld not be left out in the cold. '!hey should all be put on the standing cxmnit tees •. ·It wculd make the oc:mni.t tees Cl.lli:lersalle but at least they would k.ncM that they 'WOUld be involved in one-third of the operation, one of the three cxmnit tees aeyw;J!:f. I 'd put them all on if you' re oot changing the nllllhers of per sonn el on cnmcil put them all on ccmnit tee and believe me you would be doing a service to allow these menbers who are just beoaning so disenchanted and so dis gusted that if ycu took a poll after last council mee ting, it was absolutely pathetic.

Sane would have you believe everything is just fine and dandy, going their WC1!f· Yes. In the opinioo of a handful things are going t.� WC1!f they would like to see it go but it's not in the interests I think of the city. Take that for what it's worth. I can assure you that I've had sore experience and I don't expect people to always agree with me, I can have difference of opinion but I can still work in the general interests of the people I 'm SUJ;P:>Sed to represent and leave my personal views and things aside.

I can assure you that if you would take heed to a few of these st.J;lgE!Stions I've made that you'd be doing a service to the OCIIIIlllli ty. Here again don't place too much etphasis on what the mspalSihility of the Deputy is. �t is the responsibility of the Mayor? '!hen when does the Deputy take over? He should not have aey xrore rights than anybcx:1y else except in the absence of. If you want to have a spokesman for a controlling grcup set up another category but separate than. o:m't try and clood the issue.

The other that I think is very :i.np:>rtant is to �en the hands of the CC1111lissioners and of course put all the menbers of council on a standing CC1111littee. I think you'd be doing a service to the city. • • • coo tinued next page

64 Jooannson. May 23, 1974 MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any questions seeking further clarification? Mr. MR. JOHANN SON: Mr. Chairmm , Mr. Mayor you' ve outlined a nl.lWer of prd::llems that have develc:ped thrOUJh the workings of the present Act and you' ve outlined sale of your concerns about the proposed amendments . MR. JUBA: I' d like to point out I didn't pour out too many of the prd::llens , they ' 11 care out at the appropriate tine I can assure you . MR. JOHANN SON: I was going to ask you sinply one question .

Do you think that the Mayor would have a better working relationship with the Deputy Mayor and with the Chainnan of Staniing Comnit tees if they were appointed by him? MR. JUBA: I would think so, but not necessa rily. If you have a rontrolling group , I don't belong to any particular group,and.I use as an illustration the first instance when the ICEX:: discussed the appointment of a Deputy , they apparen tly asked Paul if he 'd take it and he said, well I' ll give my decision later on. He cane in to see ne . He said do you think you and I could work together? I rouldn't re. .. .kno-1 Paul.

But I think by virtue of him caning in and saying that, make the statement he was willing to go almg and I think that not necessary , does , should the Mayor be called upon to name him . It would be much better I could assure you, it would be very much better , but not necessarily . I think the Mayor should work with maybe the decision of the majority . MR. CHAIRMI\N: Mr. Premier MR. SCHRE'iER: �ll Mr. Chairmm I have three questio ns MR. JUBA: I'm for it I nean from a personal point of view but I nean it ••• there might be Sale changes . MR. CHAIRMAN : Mr. Premier MR. SCHREYER: We ll Mr.

Chairmm I have three questions I' d like to direct to the Mayor to try and get a little m:>re clarification on three of the principle aspects that he 's raised in his presenta tion. The first is with respect to the alleged sort of diminution in interest on the part of sare councillors. Do I understand correctly that this is because of the fact that they are frozen out of Participation in Standing Camri.t tees or is there sate other reason why, a main reason why sare councillors are tending to feel frustrated and le ss interested? MR.

JUBA: I think that a lot of nent>ers are the , the ICOC which is the rontrolling group in nurbers as were elected awear to be a very large nurrber but poll them today and you' re going to find out that they are not as strong as it appears to the public • A lot are not attending the nee tims , they are dis endlanted , they are really disenchanted . I think that they ' re disenchanted for a nurrber of reasons .

Sate, they don' t 1av..> what's going en, pcMei" play move on the other hand and just sare dissention within the majority group for many , many reasons . '1he ones that care to ne, tell ne their prcblens and of course they do vary sane if they never got a chainnanship of course , ••• if they were taken off the cxmnit tee that they wanted to be on of cam;e and they had another ax to grind1but I would say in all sincerity that ICOC is not as strom as sare would like the pwlic to believe , they' re not that strong, because ther e's a lot of disenchantrrent in the old group.

They tell ne, JlOol I dcn't Jav..> whether it 's true or not, I don't go to the caucus nee tings but the re's a nunber of reasons but what I' m trying to say when you have nnre nent>ers on the co:rmit tee s, you give evecybody an opportunity to kJlOol and an opportunity to .kno-1 at least the opera ticns of one particular facet of the gove rnrrent. Sate are not on co:rmittee s. And another thing is the renumera tion - this is a thomy one . If you are on a co:rmittee you get so Imlch nnre, if you'r e chairmm you get so Imlch !IDre and all that) you koow)that

part is not good at all. MR. SCHREYER: �11 Mr. Chairmm , the answer has caused two !IDre questions to arise. If all rrenbers of rouncil were to serve on cxmni ttees I would calculate that this would nean 15-16 menber cxmnit tees and would the Mayor regard that as being workable or, well yes at least workable or would it be just a bit Imldl, a bit large . MR. JUBA: I think it would take <May sate of the problens that menbers are left in the cold. You kn(l.ol a lot of menbers go to council nee tings and they really , other than receiving their agendas and that, they really don't Kn(l.ol what' s going on •. MR.

SCHREYER: But, Mr. Chairma n,do I not, is it not rorrect that any rneniJer of cooncil can attend a Standing Ccmni ttee meet ing?

May 23, 1974 65 MR. JUBl\.: True� the re's a big difference though, you 1<rvt1 what I nean in the human elenent outlook when he is a merrber of that carmi ttee or attems as an cbserver . It has an inpact, no question about that. Sure llelt'bers can attend camri.ttee mee tings but he 's not a nenber. We had one man far exanple , HWson 1who attended all mee tings practically , every one he possibly could attend , religi ously.

NcM you just see him aro und periodically , even he 's getting disenchanted and boy he has 110re patience than that and nCM he 's getting disendlanted , so you knCM it 's not a very healthy situation�but if you kna-�, if you put the nemer en the carmittee he T'ON has a respon sibility and he' s on the camti. ttee , he' s going to be recx:ll:ded off or on and I think that this would help too, because it takes CM ay the variation of the salaries that they rece ive . Ncbody would say this publicly but that is another area. MR.

SCHREYER: Well present catt>any excluded but would the Mayor not agree that pres iden ts , prine ministers , have been knCMn to get disenchanted - I said present oatpany excluded , would the Mayor not agree that at times even Presidents , Prine Ministers , Ministers , get disen dlanted with the overload of work. MR. JUBA: ••• get disen chanted far a differ ent reason. When I nean disencha nted, disendlanted to a point of losing inter est.

You could beoc:ll1! as you yourself I pres 1.111e bec::ate disendlanted at tines but in a different way, not to a point where you say , well I' m just not going to bother and you lose interest in your work. 'Ihis is the danger . I've becane disenchanted , I never slept last night, I' ve been up all night. Sure I get disenchanted ; my wife is not only disenchanted , she 's mad as hell at ne but you knav' there cares tines when we have •••• MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Olainnan, the other major point was the Mayor was stressing that the Board of catlnissioners should sate how urder legislation be insured of the ability to function as carmissioners in accordance with the duties outlined in the Act. Could the Mayor elabo rate just a little as to what kind of addi tional protection or assurance with respect to the carryin.:J out of duties of the carmissioners is required. MR. JUBl\.: We gave you a list, we sent a copy - they are tedlni cal things, we sent a ccpy.

In fact I don't knc1N •• • pardon ne, we can make sure you get a copy, we could get you a copy of the proposed amendrrents. Do you renetber when that was mailed? MR. SCHREYER: Yes I think so , yes we do. 'Ihank you. We have to be sure that Mr. Graham is not kept out in the cold. MR. CHAIR-ti\N: Mr. Moug. MR. MXJG: Mr.

Chainnan, I'd like to ask the Mayor if he does n't think it would be an advantage far the Deputy Mayor to sit in with the catlnissioners at their mee tings at all tines so he would have a better idea of what's going on and sane continuity far days when you are out of tCMn and mee tings when he has to take the dlair at the regular council mee tings. Wo.lldn' t there be an advantage to have the Mayor infonned in this manner? MR. JUBl\.: If it was far that reason I would agree with him, I would agree with you. It is not far that reason .

I think if you use the statenent to carry it in the press that he represents a group and that that group should have representa tion on the Board of Ccmnissioners 1 and I' m trying to say is I don't think anyone group should have any preference in that particular area , that's what I'm trying to say. Did I make myself clear? MR. MXJG: Yes 1 but I think that it enters into poll tics with that move and that's of course sanething we try to keep clear of on city council.

At least we would hope we could keep clear of that on city council, not have poll tics involved with local level of government) but what I nean is , what I' m trying to ask you Mr. Mayor is - Mr. Chainnan, what I'm trying to ask the Mayor is , is it possible for the Deputy Mayor to pick up the reins on short notice when you have to get on an aircraft and go out of tCMn on business, city business , for him to pick up and have airf continuity in the Mayor's Chair at a council meeting or at the meeting of the Ccmnissioners MR.

JUBA: It would be advantageous. 'Ihe re's no question about that, yes if the function is perfonred with the original intent, yes I would say yes an:l not only that any menber of council insofar as that's concerned , the 110re he kna-�s about the operation , so Im.lch the bett er. No, I have no objection ••• MR. MJ(x; : lvell, Mr.

Chainnan1I'm going to ask this question with the possibility of getting my head shot off because I knew the Mayor' s very capable if he takes a notion in his head to do such1 but you mentioned later , after mentioning about the Deputy Mayor, you mentioned that the disendlantirent arocmqst coun:: il

66 May 23 , 1974 (MR. MJUG a:mt'd) ••••• 1'1\e!Tbers it would be better to make larger camtittees so that the CO\mcil rretbers �.«>uld have sane idea of what's goin:r on in camti ttee mee tin:rs so when they go to council mee tings they would have sane idea. NcM is that contra dictory with what your line of thinking is about the Deputy Mayor attending mee tings of the Catm.issioners? I tried to ask that as nic:E as I can and hope I'm not •.• MR. JUBA: No I don' t think so because right IlCW ther e's a deliberate atte-cpt to build up a pennanent jd:J for the Deputy , in fact we 'v e done it already .

It is a penranent job , a full time job, I presu:re full tine fran a pay point of view . That's been established . We just have to accept this. No I don't think ther e's any conflict there because what I'm tryin:r to say is that a lot of disenchantment comes in when a lot of the ltBlbers are not serving on any carmi ttee.

You don' t krlcY what's goin:r en and I can tell you this much , the point here is then if the deputy sat in he 'd be able to inform , but he 's infonnin:r the group that get the seats en the carmittees 1b ut the group that's not bein:r informed neither have seats en cr:mni ttees nor are they represented by a spckesrnan at the Camti.ssion mee tin:r _ Doyou see what I nean? MR . MJUG: Well�Mr.

Chainnan, then it would cause ne to ask the Mayor does he think that it's a poll tical pressure group that is tryinJ to make a full tirne jd:J for the Deputy Mayor or is it sanethin:r that' s sil¥Jle han:ied by the Deputy Mayor alone? MR. JUBA: Well if I had positive proof , you could only voice an opi nion of what's goin:r on.

I had for exampleytwo councillors cane to me today and gave their views that they were ICEC am they' re not goin} to support him, they are just waitin:r for an opport unity to drop out . '!hey said there was a handful and I think it's callllOll kllCWled:Je, but I 'm not goizl;J to be :jD3ged I don't kna.or. I don' t sit in with them, you ki1CW what I mean, other than what's going on. MR. MJUG: 'lhat Is all Mr. Chainnan. MR. CHAIR-111N: I believe that exhausts our questions . Mr. Graharn. MR. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chai:rna.n, through you to the Mayor , I would like to ask the Mayor for his views on a propos al that I put to the previous speaker regarding the constitution of the Board of Camti.ssioners am I would ask the Mayor if the Board of Ccmn:i.ssioners was carprised of the Chief Ccmnissioner, the Ccmn:i.ssianer of Environnent plus the Chainnan of the Environnent Ccmni.ttee, the Ccmnissioner of Finanoo plus the Olairman of Financ:E am the Ccmnissio ner of Wons and Operations plus the Chairman of that Camti.ttee am the Mayor , would that be an 1.ll"'llorXable cr:mnittee .

Would it slew dam the won of the carmittee or the board? MR. JUBA: I don't think so. No, you kna.ol it all depeOOs whidl one, do you want a thin:r to won or do you want it to fall flat oo its face? It 's just as silrple as that; it oould work. There is no question about that. MR. CHAIRMAN: I believe that, is that satisfactory? I believe that concluies the qlEStion period . I wish to thank you Mayor Jl.ba oo behalf of the acmni.ttee for beim present with us this evening. I belie ve I'l l call en Mr. D. c. Lennox m�, so that we can conclWE! all our presentations on Bill 46 before proceedin:r on to another bill. Mr.

Lennox. MR. I..ENOOX : '!hank you Mr. Chainnan, I'd just with the permission of your ccmnittee would like to file SCJte ccmnents with respect to sane tedmical points first with regard to

Section 28, Bill 46 and also a sugg ested amendment to the wordin:r that is in the Bill IlCW for

section 599 am also as a supplement to 11¥ prior ccmnents last week on Bill 38 , sanemre de tail with respect to the effect of that requirement for the proposed amendments whidl would rerder rnan:iatory notice to cwners and tenants within a rezoning area and a distance of 500 feet arourrl it. I have copies of these ccmnents ard I would just like to file them with your ccmnittee nc:w Mr. Chainnan. MR. CHAIRMAN: Would the clerK just pass the copies along . MR. LENIDX: 'lhank you very xruch Mr. Chairman, I would ask your acmni. ttee to give consideration to those . MR.

CHAI R-111N: We' ll p roceed on then to our final presenta tion. that to be made by Charles Chappel l. Will you please advance to the rni.crO!Xlone Mr. Chappell. MR. CHAPPELL: Mr. Olainnan, I represent the rural mmicipality of Sprin:rfield. I am led to urxierstand that dealii'¥J with

section 102 of Bill 38 certain amendments have been proposed or a ITDtion will be made . I would indicate Mr. Chainnan that the rural municipality of Springfield is in agreement with the proposed ITDtion whidl woQld be introda::ed in this matter but I also wish to indicateJ Mr. Chairman_, that the rural municipality of Spring field , at the convention held for the Union of Manitcba Municipalities in Noven'ber of 1973, had a resolution carried by the convention where the UI+t rEqUeSted the governnent of tOO Provinc:E of Manitcba

May 23, 1974 67 (MR. CHAPPELL oont 'd) ••••• to ammd the provisioos of the City of Winnipeg Act so as to provide that all real arrl personal property holdin;s belc:o;Jin:.J to the City of �'linnipeg shall be swject to taxation , incltxlim school taxes by aey mmi.cipal corpora tion or local gCJ\I'erl1llelt district in which such property is situated. At the present time,Mr.

Chairman, the Act provides that holdin;s of the city of Winnipeg in municipal corporations other than the City of Winnipeg are e:xerrpt fran any form of taxation . 'lhe Act does provide further that the city of Winnipeg may enter into an agreement with that nruni.cipali ty on an ann ual basis whereby it binds itself to pay a grant in lieu of such taxes . This is an authori ty,Mr. Chairman> which no other municipal corporation in the province of Manitcba possesses .

Every other municipal corporation is subject to paying taxes for its holdings of both personal arrl realty outside of its corporate jurisdicticn . '1herefore ,Mr. Chairman) the rural nruni.cipality of Springfield submits that the special status ccnferred upon the city under

section 659 should be repealed arrl their hold in;s should be the swject of taxation of other nunicipal jurisdictions in the sane manner as any other nunicipal corporation . I would also irrli.cate,Mr. OlairmanJ that my renarks are not neant to be critical of the city of Winnipeg ;in the past they have on a gratuitious basis without agreeMnt provided full dollar per dollar value to the rural municipality of Springfield in the form of a grant . The only item which the nunicipality is con cerned with was the Statutory grant in lieu of taxes of $15 , 0001 but I understarxi that tmder the prcposed nntion if this

section were repealed then it would be a si.nple natter of ci>taining agreEm:!nt of the city whereby it annually botmd itself to pay a grent in lieu of any taxes which would othetwi se be inposed. '!hank you . MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there aey questions menbers wish to direct to Mr. Chappe ll . Mr. Premier . MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman I'd like to ask Mr. Chappell if - it 's my impression that scrrething has happened here because in recent days or recent weeks there have been discussions bebN'een representatives of �'linnipeg arrl the R.M. of Springfield and that there was nutual agreement as to the deletion of a sub-

section of the Act and as I understand you ' re no.> sugges ting the deletion of an entire sect ion, has scrrething happened in recent days to indicate that either of the bN'o parties are no longer in agreerre nt? MR. CHAPPELL : Mr. Chairnan, I belie ve that it was ind icated at a recent neeting at which representatives of the Rural Municipality of Spri ngfield net with Mr. Toupin and officials of the Department of Urban Affairs, that the rural municipality of Springfield was prepared to proceed on the basis of the repeal of sub-sect ion 3 but was still opposed to the principle enbodierl under the provisions of

section 659 l that I believe the municipality was advised that this was a policy decision which the governnent would be looking at and for the time being it would be wise to proceed just with the repeal of the sub-section which the city had r9:JUI!Sted and the mmicipality is prepared to concur in this actioo at this time. But the principle errbodied in

section 659 is still opposed by the rural mmi.cipality of Springfield Mr. Cha irman. MR. SCHREYER: Although you would confi nn,Mr. Chappe llJ that in m:netary tenTs there would be ro difference , at least in the foreseeable future . MR. CHAPPELL: To this time 1Mr. Chairman, there has been no diffe rence in rronetary te.rns .

Proceeding on the assmption that the city of Winnipeg would continue to proceed and make the ann ual grant on the basis on which they have made it there would be no tmnetary difference , but the rural mmi.cipality of Sprin;field is of course relying solely on the goodwi ll of the city in this regard . I believe the Act says the city''nay' 'enter into an agreement , it does not say ··shall�' Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAI� : Mr. Adarn MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, Mr.

Chappell1the grants in lieu of taxes , you receive 't'Dil, Springfield receives - are they equivalent to the am::run ts the mmicipality would receive if it was done on the assessn-ent basis? You Jma.i I'm speaking of the property that the City of Winnipeg has. MR. CHAPPELL : Mr. Chairnan , I believe that the Act provided for a Statutory grant of $15 ,000. Sub-section 3 of

section 659 said that the city shall annually pay by way of an annual paynent in lieu of all such taxes or rates the aroount of $15,0 00 to the rural municipality of Springfiel d. It 's my understarrling, Mr. Chairman, that the :inten tion of this

section was to provide this $15 ,0 00 annual grant for the holdings of the water district, the Greater Winnipeg water District. The actual dollar figure ,Mr. Chairman1last year was awroximately $25,0 00 and althol.J]h the Act only speci fied that the City was required to pay $15 , 0001 $25 ,000 was

68 May 23, 1974 (MR. CHAPPELL aont'd ) •• ••• actually rece ived. On the basis of the assessment for the holdings of the water district I believe that rather than the sum of $15 ,000 being realized on the basis of the mill rate and assessment, this figure may be increased sc::rrewhat Jlaol. MR. CHAIR-VIN : Are there aey further questioos? HearinJ none I wish to thank you . Mr. Enns MR. ENNS : Just one question of Mr.

Chappell, there seems to be in the presentation made by Mr. <llappell a kin:l of an undue E!lllhasis on the gocx:Mill of the city of Winnipeg and rrrt si.nple question is , has he aey indication to believe that that good-ri ll will be not farthcaning. In other words , that the assU!!ption that he is working on yoo. knc:M has no foundation or fact that in fact this ••• MR. CHAPPELL : I have no reasoo to believe Mr. Chairman that the city will not continue to folla-� the policy it prev iously folla-ted but similarly I have no indi cation that they won't folla-� that. MR.

CHAI�: Well I believe that that conclu:ies the questions. '!hank you. We' 11 pr oceed Jlaol to oonsideratioo of the bills before us. We st:cJA:led the last day with the consideration of Bill 4 and I believe we were on sectioo 18, Bill 4,

section 18 pass . Mr. Jdmstal. MR. J. FRANK JOHNS'IUN : ••• not go quite that fast. MR. CHAI�: We'l l give you a narent to get yoor notes ready . Is everyone ready? Mr. Jdmston. MR. J. FRANK JOHNS'ION : Mr. Chairman , as I reca ll we were discussing

section 25 regarding the word "real" or" persona l" . MR. CHAIRMAN: You' re correct Mr. Jdmston. The last one I had signed was

section 17. We' ll start in at

section 25 . MR. J. FRANK JOHNS'roN : Well Mr. Chairman there was discussion about this and it errled with I believe the Merltler fran Birtle Russell SIXJgesting that we think about the ward "mal" the words "or personal" in this

section as to whether we should alii that to the legislation and we have discussed it and we feel that the word personal being added into the legislation does make it pretty rough and that we would like to su;rgest that the wards "or persa1al" be taken out, whidl would nean the deletion of

section 25 actually and having the bill remain as it is with just"real" tax . MR. CHAI�: Mr. Ha.Tard Pardey . MR. PAWLEY: I think Mr. <llairman, we would be prepared to concur with the s�XJgestion for deletion of the word "or personal" . Do we need a resolution to that effect? I suppose we do. MR. J. FRANK JOHNSTON: Well Mr. <llainnan if we need it and the government is in agreement I think it should be the Minister that presents the resolu tion. MR. PAWLEY: Ray just asked ne a question, what is the specific cbjection you actually have to the use of that word? MR. J.

FRANK JOHNS'IDN : Well, as we discussed the last tine , the "personal" takes in the personal belongings of a person , the insurance nnney c:aning regardinJ those personal belCOJlnJS would be - go to the Illm.icipality or they could attach it for the ano\mt CMing. MR. T ALL IN: Could I explain sa:nething on this. To begin with this

section relates to insurance llDleys payable on property on which taxes are payable. 'lbere is author ity in the Municipal Act for municipalities to assess personal property . When that haweru; and that personal property is destroyed and insurance nrneys are payable in respect to the destruction , the s� thing would happen as if the taxes had been payable on real property and there had been a damage claim en an insurance policy in respect to the real pr q:Jerty. MR. CHAI�: Does that satisfy yoo.r cbjection? MR. J. FRANK JOHNS'roN : I'm just not quite with Mr. Tallin there .

Maybe we could clear it up when I say that ••• MR. T ALL IN: Could I give you an illustration? The municipalities tax perscnal property in the way of pipelines. The pipelines are insured , taxes may be payable but unpaid on those pipelines.

If there is damage to the pipelines and because of that damage insur ance nr::neys are payable, this says that the insurance llDleys will be applied on the taxes , the s� rule whidl Jlaol applies to a person 's house which is mal property. and it does n' t say that all the goods and chattels of aeybody will go, it' s only insurance troneys in respect of personal property on which taxes are payable and as far as I knc:M no municipality taxes any personal property na-t other than pipelines, is that right?

May 23, 1974 MR. FRANK JOHNS'IDN : So in fact Ray, we would not be claiming the taxes against the insurance on the personal property that we relate to the taxes on the real property . It would only relate to those taxes on personal prope rty. MR. PAWLEY: Ivell then I think it's much nore consistent to leave it in. MR. TALL IN: Yes 69 MR. CHAIRMAN: lvill we proceed?

Section 25 pass.

Section 26 pass.

Section 27 pass. Mr. Graham. MR. GRAHA."i: Dealing with

section 27 I want , I would like to have the Minister of Municipal Affairs nore or less bring us up to date on the status of the rmmicipal governrrent in that area at the time and what he sees happening with that rmmicipal governrrent in the near future . MR. CHAIRMAN : Mr. Pawley. MR. PAI1LEY : Well Mr. Chairman I see in the not too distant future this is one of the first order of Local GcNernment Districts that will proceed to approach to if not Cat{)lete nnmicipal status . I think there is a desire in the camrunity that they nove ta.rards a nnmicipal status.

During our hearings in the Leaf Rapids itself there was that indication that there was a desire . I think that the fiscal viability will be there and certainly with the anendnEnts that we 've passed in our IDeal Goverrmlmt Districts Act there' ll be rra.1dt nnre flexibi lity on our

part in order to either bring them transi tionally taNards full rra.micipal status, if not to proceed to full rra.micipal status but I think the sooner we get them out of their present basis the better . MR. CHAIIf.fAN: Mr. Graham. MR. GRAHAM: Another question Mr. Chairman. Could the Minister give us approximately the assessn-ent of the Local Government District there at the present time? MR. PAWLEY : Maybe Mr. Reimer our provincial assessor who's here would give that. MR. C. M.

REIMER: I speak strictly fran memory JlOol but it runs in my mind the assessn-ent in total runs at the mc:rnent in $12 rnillicn but this is satething which will, that figure won't remain at $12 million because oonstructicn at Leaf Rapids is progressing very rapidly, so that the additions ' to the current tax roll will annt.mt to sane pretty substantial figures , but just what they will an-ount to in the current year it's pretty hard to predict but there is a substantial tax base JlOol but then again, there's a lot of activity going en. MR. GRAHAM: A still further question Mr.

Otai.rman, either to the minister or to the chief assessor , Mr. Reimer. With the change in Mineral Taxation in the province will the assessn-ent of the mining property change as far as the Municipal Act is concerned or will it be a static factor. MR. PAWLEY : We ll Mr. Chairman , I wouldn 't want to answer that with great certainty because I don 't believe that Bill dealing with Mineral Taxation has yet been intra:iuoed to the House ani I would suspect that we would have to wait until the introducticn of that Bill to kJlOol with certainty.

I'm not aware of it affecting the Municipal Taxation insofar as Leaf Rapids would be concerned. MR. GRAHAM: Well am I correct then in the fact that, or what I believe to be correct that assessn-ent of the mining property is purely on surface structures is it, it has nothing to do with the arrount of ore bcxiy or anything of that nature . It 's strictly surface is it. MR. PAt'ILEY: Yes it's surface only at the present time. MR. GRAIW1: Mr.

Chairman, further on the Leaf Rapids OevelOIJten.t Corporation at the present time grants in lieu of taxes are J10ol paid to the provincial govern- rrent are they not with the Local Goverrmlent District the grants that are paid in lieu of taxes do cane to the provincial treasury do they not? MR. PAIVLEY: I understand this being the first year they haven ' t paid anything yet. This is the first year of operation . MR. GRAHAM: I' m not talking about that. I' m talking about the Leaf Rapids Corporation is to pay grants in lieu of taxes .

New those grants will be paid to the provinc ial treasury un til there is a municipal corporation of its CMn entity there . Is that not the case? MR. PAI'ILEY: .Maybe Mr. Mc:Nairnay would like just to MR. McNAIRNI\.Y: Mr. Chairman there is a Local Government District of Leaf Rapids in existence and that's what this

section is for, to provide that the Leaf Rapids Devel oprrent Corporation will pay to the IED grants in lieu of taxes on property which it still CMnS as it divests itself of this property to the IED of course it will be relieved of that burden but while it' s still develop:in:J ani

70 May 23, 1974 (MR. McNAIRNAY cent ' d) • • • • • those prqJerties that the Corporatiat still owns th is

section provides that they will pay grants in lieu of taxes to the u;o . '!hat's the purpose of this

section . MR. GRAHAM: New but the Local Government District is a canplete entity Of its CMn. MR. PAWLEY : Yes MR. OJAI:RMAN: Shall we proceed? 27 Mr. M:l1.J1 MR. IDUG: Well I just had one question Mr. Chairman. I was won:ierim why a grant in lieu of truces rather than it says it would be payable to the equal anDUnt of taxes if prq:Jerty were not so eXf!I!Ilt. Why go through this proce:iure when they ooul.d si.rrply pay the tax dollar equivalent to anybody else that would be in that area. Why not jwt pay taxes on the assessnent and the mill rate. M1y go to a grant in lieu? MR. PAWLEY: Well the reason for that Mr.

Chairman is , would be at the basis that it is a Crown Corporation, in the sane way as in reference to all Cram Corporations under the Assessment Act, payment would be by way of grant in lieu. We are dealing with the Manitcba Developnent Corporation and the Cram Corporation, the Cram ent ity. MR. IDlG: My serond question would be in the sane

section but 796 stb 8 it says that it will not apply to property used by Leaf Corporation , Leaf Rapids Corporation in ronnection with construction of the tomsite. Why would the ta-msite be taken out of there versus other prqJerties? Why pay on sane of the prqlerty curl Yet at the ta.msite itself it would be exenpt . · MR. PAWLEY : It says sub

section 7 does not apply to property used by Ieaf Rapids Corporation in ronn ection with the construction of the tCMnsite . MR. m.JG: Yes, why leave that out, why have that exempt an:l the balance paying? What is the balance , what do they have there other than the tcwnsite, do they have prq:,erty that they ' re not building on as yet an:l they ' re going to pay a grant on that in lieu and yet where they 'r e constructing in the ta-msite itself, it is exenpt to sub 7. Stb 7 doesn 't apply to the construction of the f:a..msite in leaf Rapids. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Uruski . MR. URJSKI : Mr. Chairman , I would just like to maybe shed sane light on it I believe that the intel:pretation of that

section would be for buildings that the Corporation uses as maybe bunk houses or storage sheds in relation to construction . It wouldn't be any other property. It 's in buildings in connection with const ruction not the buildings that they are constructing . I think that lights it up Bill. MR. CHAIR<IAN: Mr. Graham MR. GRAHAM: Why should that be exempt? MR. M:>UG: They ' re construction shacks . MR. GRl\Hl\M: That doesn 't matter. MR. MJUG: Construction shacks temporarily IOOI7ed in so they can use them. MR. URJSKI : I don 't knar.r let's qet the experts, MR. MJUG: I think that's what the Bill rooans . MR.

URUSKI: Yes it's probably in conne ction like you say the cai!l> MR. MJUG: Bunk houses , cook houses and everything . MR. GRAHAM: and the office buildings? MR. URUSKI: No, no , I believe what the intent is here is that the, prcbably the camp site or te1p0rary cons truction huts for workers that are, maybe living in there and that they will he dismantled and IIDITed out or removed fran the construction site once any works that are under construction are canple ted. They are not a permanent structure, these buildin gs would not be permanent .

If there would be , I' m sure a , like the I.GD building and that , well that be part of the IG:> building but this would be just a teJttx:>rary hut . MR. CHAIRMAN : Mr. Graham MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman , under another amendment to the Municipal Act we are llOf1 making it possible to assess truces against �ary structures or moveable structures such as nmile hanes and other things and yet we are not being consistent here in that the Leaf Rapids Corporation is going to be iexempt fran all of their ar,rn personal property in that t.cMnsi te, whether it be construction shacks or their office or any other.

I don't think we're being consi stent. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sdl.reyer.

May 23, 1974 71 MR. SCHREYER: I.Vell Mr. Chairnan, while we're in this quandry that further I would irrlicate to Mr. Graham that part of the proolem that is attempted here to be resolved is that historically CrCMn Corporations have enjoyed a certain tax exenpt status, either in whole or in large part and in a sense that has becane academic IlOW' by virtue of the fact that in ITOSt cases the grants in lieu are 100 percent relatable to what nonnal taxation would be. '!hen in crldition to that fact YOU have the fact that certain CrCMn Corporations are by specific statutory

section directed to pay nonnal municipal taxation but in being so directed are at the same tirre exerrpted frcm certain special levies having to do with the hospital district costs etc. By wcr.r of exarrple, Man itcba Hydro pays municipal taxes but not for all separate levies of the Municipal Tax Bill. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Graham. MR. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chainnan , I'l l accept what the First Minis ter has said but I think that we have a different cirCUIIStance here in that individuals as such firrl it very difficult to build property in that area in that Leaf Rapids Develor:ment Corporation is in aliTOSt in fact, the entire municipal tCMn Site. Leaf Rapids Develq:ment Corporation was given al.Irost exclusive building rights in that area and it has to be treated in a different manner . It' s not just arw CrcMn Corporation. It is the Cram Corporation and the main building authority in that area. MR. URUSKI : Mr.

Chainnan that in Leaf Rapids there were other contractors insofar as the oons truc:tion of housing and the like, there were other contractors building hcrnes in Leaf Rapids and I think that the

section here in 8 is analOJOUS to a oontractor 11011 ing into arw municipality or any tom or village in rural Manitooa and possibly building , ll\3king a develor:nent of 8 or 10 hcrnes and 1101!ing in 20 or 30 of his workmen into a carrpsi te in the tCMn , I don' t think a village or oounci l of that municipality would charge them a levy for the time that that ere.-� would be living in bunkhouses and the like within that municipa lity. I don' t believe.

I have never been on a municipal oouncil but I do believe that when oontractors llDVe into a camuni ty they do not pay any special levy vis-a-vis their quarters for their workrren and the like. MR. CHAIRMl\N: Mr. Graham MR. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chainnan, I don 't ki'ICM if the Minister for Autopac was absent frcm the Legislature but I believe and I can 't, I'm just parar:tu"asing I can't quote the exact words but when the development was ann ounced in that area the First Minister anno tm.ced that this was going to be the first a:mmmity that was totally Planned and the Cram Corporation was set up with the exclusive right of doing that and that was the purpose of settin::r up the Cram Corporation , so it has a rronopoly and it 's a rronopolistic entity in that respect and this is quite different frcm other municipal oorporations where there are Cram Corporations involved along with other enterp rises to ll\3ke up the total of municipal package.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Uruski MR. URUSKI : Mr. Chainnan that is prooably oorrect insofar as the devel�ment and the planning end of it goes, but insofar as the oontractin::r and const ruction of p�rty and preparation of lots or building of hcmes I believe that there were hcrnes oonstructed not only on behalf and done by the corporation but also by I believe the mini n::r carrpany oonstructed a nunber of hcrnes in Leaf Rapids as well, but acoording to plans that were established by the oorporation. That is true. MR. CHAIRMAN : Does that answer your question . MR. GRAHAM: Not entirely .

I want to proceed IlOW' to another aspect of this and it says that sub

section 7 does not apply to prq:Jerties used by Leaf Rapids Corporation in conn ection with the construction of the tCMnSite or to the property that is exempt frcm municipal taxation for reasons other than that set out in clause 228. Mr. Chainnan , I would like to ask the Minist er is it not a cxmron practice in ITOSt municipal corporations where pr()Jressive assessment is levied against the property as construction proceeds. Here it would appear that there will be no , no assessment as long as construction is in prOJress. MR. PAWLEY: I understand no but I would let Mr. Reimer deal with that. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr.

Reimer. MR. PAWLEY : It 's when it 's canpleted I believe that the assessment is • MR. REIMER: There is provision in The Assessment Act for property to be not assessed unti l it is substantially canpleted or occupied and this carries on for a two-year period. After two years if it 's still under oonstruc:tion then it would be assessed and put on the roll. But for a two-year period there is a total

72 May 23, 1974 (MR. REIMER oont'd ) ••••• eJ<eRPtion fran assessuent while under cxnstruction. MR. CliAI�: Mr. Graham. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chainnan, the reasoo I was a little familiar with that, maybe I was too slew building , it took ne three years to build It¥ house but I krlcM that I was assessed before I did have the house carpleted . MR. REIMER: This is a fairly recent amendnent to the .Assessuent Act, Mr. Graham. MR. CliAIIM\N: Mr. Jd:mston . MR. F.

JOHN STOO: Maybe I could an answer about just the assessnent like to use the exanple being built in leaf Rapids at the present tine , there 's the shqlping centre and oamnmi.ty centre and when that is carplete leaf Rapids Co:r.poration will pay grants in lieu of taxes on that building. '!hat building is armed by leaf Rapids Corporation, it's been built by them but will it be armed by leaf Rapids Corporation and they in tum will pay grants in lieu of taxes. Gra!Jam. MR. REIMER: Well I would assurce so, yes , under the provisions ••• MR. F. J ClHNS'IOO: Un:3er the provision of this Act. MR.

CliAI:EitAN: Does that satisfy your cbjections , shall o,.;e p:rooeed. Mr. MR. GRAID\M: Mr. Chainnan, I would like to add one other questioo. Will the grant in lieu of taxes be the sCille , exactly the sane as if it was assessed as private pn:perty . MR. PAWLEY: Yes . MR. GRAHAM: It will be the full assessed value , will it? MR. PAWLEY: Yes . MR. GRAHAM: Is it possible for us to get, not exact, but awroxi.mately the arrount of pn:perty that is privately armed and that that is owned by the leaf Rapids Develc.prent Corporation in that tcwnsite. MR. PAWIEY: I would suspect that infoll!1ation could be cbtained .

It seems to ne that really that's a questioo that should nore fall within the arrbit of the discussion with the Minister of Mines and Natural Res ources . I' m sure we can cbtain that infoll!1atioo in arrJ eve nt. MR. F. JOHN STOO: One nore questioo I' d like tp pursue that Mr. Grahan started out with and Mr. Mc:Nai.rnay did give an explanation but a local govemnent district , their nx:meys basically oate fran the province to cperate .

So grants in lieu of taxes on buildings armed by leaf Rapids Corporatioo, the nx:mey really is going back to the goverrment then and is there going to be a stipulatioo that it nllSt be used in leaf Rapids? MR. PAWLEY: Well it certainly would be It¥ understanding that all naJeyS that are reoei ved by the Local Government District of leaf Rapids would be used by that district for the purposes of the oamnmi. ty of leaf Rapids . '!here 's no diversion of funds to other government purposes. MR. SCHREYER: It's a starxiard arrangement . '!he questioo as put wouldn't have occurred to me.

New that the question has been put, subject to oorrectioo, but I'd be IICSt sw:prised if the funds raised by wey of grants in lieu of taxes are used arrJ diff erently than if they were full and ncmoal. taxes, used for the purposes of the I.GD. MR. PAWLEY: It would be used in the sane wey as the taxes and nx:meys that are raised in arrJ other local goverment dist rict. It would certainly be It¥ under standing . MR. F. J<ENSTON : I think the First Minister is right here .

If the inoate of grants in lieu of taxes is taken into the inoate of the Local Govemnent District then let 's put it this wey, if they need nore Ita'leY, it's made up as it is IlCW. But the Ita'leY in grants in lieu of taxes fran the Corporatioo would definitel y be used in that area. I mean you could oonoeivably be lodd ng at a book entry type of thing, goverment-cwned corporatioo paying the goverment I.GD. MR.

SCHREYER: Ieally it's no diff erent than there is a Crcwn asset in,l et us sey , the I.GD of Piney to take it to the IICSt reiTDved other Local Government District. '!he Crcwn would pey full grants in lieu of taxes and those revenues would be used in an inte:tmixed wey with all other local levy revenues of the I.GD and for general I.GD pw:poses . So it's not really a book entry , it 's really local goverrment revenue . MR. F. JOHNS'ION : Ok ey. MR. CliAI:EitAN: Mr. G:'ahan. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chainnan, to the Minister of Municipal Affairs.

If the corporation pays grants in lieu of taxes on their pn:perty , would that pn:perty appear oo the assessnent rolls that are at the I.GD office? MR. PJ\WLEY: Yes .

May 23, 1974 MR. GRAHAM: '!he reason I ask the questioo, I believe it is the intention of the leaf Rapids Developnent Corporation particularly in the housing end of it to eventually place for sale to individuals the prq:Jerty that they are building . Is that not correct? MR.

PAWIEY: Well I think eventuall y saTe of them, I believe there 's a nurber of differe nt types of housing that has been constructed but certainl y the bulk of the housing would eventually be sold to those that are inhabiting them. - (Interj ection) -- Yes , and I understand much of it is already privately owned in leaf Rapids , a great aroount of it at the present time . But whether it is or is not, it would be on the tax rolls paying the noliiial rate of taxation to the Local Govenunent District. 73 MR.

GRAHAM: '!he only reascn I raise the questicn so that prospective buyers would be able to kna.r in advance what the taJces were on that prq:Jerty and at least in the past year. MR. PAWLEY: Oh, yes , I Clll certain and assured that the anount of tmces would be indicated in the roll of the Local Govenunent District for that particular piece of prq:Jerty. MR. CHAIII11\N: Mr. f.t:mg. MR. moo : I have just one quest icn, Mr. Cllainnan, I was wondering in every instance here than in sub 7 when you I!Eltion municipality, actually you're referring to a Im? MR. PAWLEY: '!bat's right.

MR.MJ\JG': And the line in there where it says "pay to each municipality on which prq:Jerty the corporation is situated" that is smething tha t's in there for the future as we ll , that doesn 't exist at the present time . '!bey' re all in the one . leaf Rapids Corporation for all intents and purposes are in one r.m cnly at the present tine. MR. PAWLEY: I don't believe there are any tmces that WCA.lld be paid to aey area except the Local Goverment District of Leaf Rapids . Mr.

Reirre r, there 's no assesSI!Elt that does n't fall into the Local Govenunent District of leaf Rapids here? 'lbere 's none of the prq:Jerties that fall into the surrounding area; Northem Affairs would be the only other area, I suppose, that could be possibly • • • ? MR. REIMER: I 'm not aware of aey prq:Jerty assessment which is outside boundaries of the r.m . MR. CHAIII11\N: Mr. Jdmston. MR. F.

JOHNS'roN: • • • "leaf Rapids Corporation shall in each year pay to each municipality in which prq:Jerty of the corporation is situated the grant in lieu of tmces." '!hat indica tes that the Leaf Rapids Corporation may conceivably do sane building in other municipalities and if so they would have to pay grants in lieu of taxes . MR. PAWLEY: If they did , yes . MR. F. JOHNSTON: If they did , yes . MR. CHAIII11\N: Shall we proceed. (Sections 27 to 31 were read and passed .) Title passed; Prearrb le passed. Bill be reported . We'l l next take under consider ation Bill No. 25 . Bill 25 ,

an Act to validate an agreerrent made between the Provincial Exhibi tian of Mani td:>a, '!he City of Brandal , and the Goverment of Manitd:>a. (Sections 1, 2,

Schedule "A" were read .) MR. URUSKI : Mr. Cllainnan, I believe

Schedule "A" is the • • • MR. CHAIIMAN: It's the whole thing is it. MR. URUSKI : Yes ,

Schedule "A" is the • • • MR. CHAIR-tl\N: Fine , does that take care of the whole thing? MR. URUSKI : Yes . MR. CHAIIMAN: Title passed, Prearrble passed . Bill be reported. '!he next bill under consideration will be Bill 30. MR. MJUG: I nove, seconded by Mr. Uruski that cxmnittee do l'lOrl adjoum . MR. F. JOHNS'roN: May I speak to the rotion? MR. PAWLEY: Yes , I would like to hear the cc:mnents by Mr. Jdmstal . MR. F. JOHNSTON: Well I guess , by leave , you can't speak to a rotion to adjourn. MR. CHAIR-tl\N: I believe you spoke first though. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Cllainnan, the Provincial Assessor has been here for three rreeti ngs en Bill 30 and I believe he 's got a lot of work to do in other areas and I think if we cleaned his .Bill No. 30 off tonight he won't have to CaTe bade again. MR. PAWLEY: I wholeheartedl y endorse Mr. Jdmston 's •••

74 MR. OIAI�: Is it agreed that we proceed? May 23, 1974 MR. SOiREYER: I think by leave , Mr. Olainnan, there has been sane suggestion that we might adjoum na.r but for the reasons exactly stated by Mr. Jdmston, if we oould oonsider the next bill and then I would propose not that we take up aey bill beyorXi that but if possible , I'd like to at least distribute certain proposed cmendments . MR. OIAI�: Agreed? (Agreed) Bill 30.

Section l( d) . Shall we proceed page by page? MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Olainnan, on Sectioo (d) (viii) with the clause regarding horses which are-in ny q>inion the word "riding" them should be more clearly defined. Is that neant riding horse or horses that are ridden for pleasure only? MR. OIAI�: Mr. Pawley . MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Rei ner. MR. REIMER: I believe the intent is to exclude horses which are noxmally used in the riding stables as a business q>erat ion. '!his, I believe , was the inten t. MR. GRAHAM: Mr.

Olainnan, I raised the issue in the Legis lature when this bill was on second reading and I' m sure that there are many horses that are ridden for business purposes in oonducting a fann q>eratioo, fanters that ride horses for rounding up their livestock and such. Narl oould we get an indicatioo of whether it is the intention to assess on the basis of that type of q>eration or is that an exenptioo? MR. Pl\WLEY: Well it would be the intent to certainly not include in the coosideration aey animals that would be used for pleasure purposes.

Insofar as horses that are used for purposes of livestock , this rounding up, et c. , that would be in the sate categoey I would state as cattle , sheep or goats or swine . '!be Unioo of Mani t.d>a Municipalities ' resolution on this which in fact gave wey to the developnent of this provision requested the elimination of animals that are kept as pets , hdJbies , and used for activities other than the production of agricultural products. _SQ if the horses were in fact used to assist in the q>erations of the fann, the earning of inc::me on the fann itself for the production of agricultural products, than they would certainly not be -- it would certainly not be intended that they be included l.mder the teiiii "ridin g" .

If on the other hand it was horses that were used for no other purposes but pleasure , riding horses on a pleasure basis, then that would be a different categoey . MR. GRAHAM: Well Clause (vi.ii) there is the exenptions "horses other than those horses used for riding" • Now I believe that you intend that it be riding for pleasure purposes only. MR. PAWLE.Y: '!bat's right. - (Interjection) - MR. GRAHAM: No, it does n' t sey that. MR. PAWLEY: It doesn 't sey what? MR. GRAHAM: It doesn 't sey riding for pleasure purposes only. MR. PAWLEY: Or kept for riding . Maybe Mr.

Tallin would tell us whether he feels that we hen • MR. TALLI N: I den' t think you had because I think as soon as you start using a horse for work, for instance , using that as a CDtl horse , it's no longer kept and raised for riding , it 's kept and raised for working and that was what we were teying to . • • • MR. GRAHAM: Many of them have never seen hamess , all they 've ever seen is a saddle . MR. T ALLIN : But they ' re working, the rider is using them for work. MR. P1IWLEY: '!bey' re been used to round up cattle . MR. T ALLIN : Yes . MR. PAWLEY: It certainly would not be the intention of Mr.

Reiner to interpret or to carey through with assessment based on the proposition that horses that are used for work purposes, for rounding up animals would be included in this pleasure categoey . MR. GRAH11M: I feel that it' s still rather vague and I would like to see it 110re clearly identi fied . MR. PAWLEY: Pleasure riding or • • • ? If it's felt , make carmi ttee 110re oanfident , we could add the word "pleasure" to "ridin g" . MR. OIAI�: Is it agreed that we insert the word "pleasure" then. Mr. Uruski. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Olainnan, there is a certain dilemna if we use the word "pleasure " because I am sure that there is the odd fanrer that mey have a horse am::mgst his stock that mey be used for pleasure and I 'm sure that the assessment brandl would not be going out to that sate fanner whose part of his stock is used

May 23, 1974 75 (MR. URJSKI cxnt' d) • . • • for worlting and he may have one horse that his dlild or dlildzen or friends may use and that horse may be used for pleasw:e. I dcn't know whether that would be incl\Xied in that. I dol:bt that. MR. TALLIN : 'Ihe definition doesn 't r:est en its own then . You have to lock at how the word "fann stock" is used. A fanrer gets e:xenptiat if he is raising fann stodt. New the exclusicn is that if he 's raising horses for shcwing, pw:ely for shcwing, not for woDdng, he is not a fanrer . If he's raising horses for racing pw:poses , he does n't get the exenption .

He may get the exenpticn for other reascns though. A person who raises horses for racing on his l.anj may also be raising grain or other kinds of stodt . But it doesn 't nean that he necessaril y uses it. But if that's the only basis on whim he claims to be a fanrer, he wouldn't c:une within the fann e»:!lption. MR. CHAIRMAN : Shall we proceed. (Secticns 1 and 2 were read and passed .) Sectioo 3- MR. GRAID\M: Mr. Cllainnan, dealing with the m:bile hane, while I admit that -I believe this is pennissive legis lation, is it or is it oc:Jtt:lulsory? MR. CHAIIM\N: Mr. Padey. MR. PAWLEY : Yes , this is pennissive .

In other won:ls the -- it has the effect of making m:bile banes subject to assessnent under the circurstanoes outlined in the

section . But the amendnent and Mr. Rei.ner can oorrect ne does leave the mmicipality with the q:>tion of levying a license fee if it mooses to do so or c:pting in favour of having the nd:>ile hane assessed . So there is an c:ption in there as to whim direction the rmmi cipali ty proceeds . MR. REIMER: If the namicipality mooses to license under the licensing by law, then the m:bile hane would not be assessed and talced. Arry trailer whim is licensed under the Highway Traffic Act also woold not be assessed and talced.

But in the event that a rmmicipality does not provide for a licensing by-law then the m:bile banes would bec:une liable to assessnent and taxation. MR. GRAID\M: 'Ihen, Mr. Chairman, I pose the question of the fanter who lives in his m:bile hane and cwns land in nDre than one mmicipali ty and moves his nd:>ile hane to the other municipality while he is walking that particular land . �uld he be possibly assessed twice in the sate taxation year. MR. PAWLEY: Well he would be prorated as to the two municipalities if he was part of the year in one part and the other .

He would be prorated wculd he not, Mr. :Eeiner , between the . • • MR. REIMER: Well the possibility is there that the nd:>ile hane being located in one rmmicipality would be assessed and place oo the roll in that mmicipality and if during the year that nd:>ile hane were moved into another rmmici pali ty, it could be placed on the roll in the second rmmicipali ty and could be taJced on a pro-rated basis in that second rmmicipality. MR. GRAHliM : Could he then �ly for a rebate on a prorated basis fran the first rmmicipali ty? MR. REIMER: He could apply� whether he would get it or not is another question . MR.

T ALLI N: If you' re talking about a fanrer who canes within the neaning of fanrer for the pw:pose of-his building would be e:xenpt in any case. MR. CHAIR-fAN: Mr. Uruski. MR. URJSKI : 'Ihe intent of this

section is mainly because there are fanters who have hanes , nd:>ile banes as banes and presently that the municipalities are levying a monthly rental rate on the banes and in effect their banes would be e:xenpt had they been on the assessnent roll. And that has posed the greatest pn:blem. 1\m I correct? MR. REIMER: 'Ihat's one of the pn:blems .

Another pn:blem is where a mmicipality has nd:>ile hanes located in varicus locations in the rmmicipality, that is they are not cxnfined with any nd:>ile hane parlt, it becanes adminis tratively very difficult for that rmmicipality to put into practice a licensing by-law and it would be administ ratively mum tidier if those nd:>ile banes were assessed like any other hane in the rmmicipality. Both the rmmici.palities would prefer this and in nDSt cases the nd:>ile hane occupants would feel that they were being placed on the sane status as any other haneowner in the municipality. MR. CHAIIM\N: Shall we proceed .

MR. GRAHliM: Well , Mr. Cllairman, I was just woode ring if there was any possible way that we can ensw:e that the owner of a nd:>ile hane is not assessed twice in the same year , taJced twice in the same year in two different municipalities if he has IOOVed. MR. PAWLEY: I doo ' t knew hew that assurance could be given because if he

76 May 23, 1974 (MR. PAWIEY oont'd ) ••••• IOOVeS fran A to B am he pays his tax bill in mt.micipal ity A, he might very well be required to pay his tax bill in mt.micipality B en a prorated basis without art:/ guarantee , he would be able to reoeiw a refund fran nunicipality A. I don 't knew art:/ other wey we could deal with this insofar as the two Illlll'ri.cipalities would be concerned . MR. OIAIIM\N : Are there art:/ further questions? MR. GRAHl!M: I just posed it as a real liw problem then , Mr. <llab:man. I haw no answers or no solutions for it either . MR. OIAIIM\N: (Sections 3 to ll were read and passed. )

Section 12. Mr. Grahan. water. MR. GRAID\M: On

Section 12, I believe this applies to pipelines , does it not? MR. OIAIIM\N : 'lhat's right MR. GRAHl\M: 'lhese are pipelines that cany oil and gas as well as water? MR. PAWLEY: No I beliew only oil and gas to 11¥ ••• MR. GRAHl!M: I was just wmdering if this is - it' s oil and gas only and not MR. TALLIN : It 's just oil and gas. MR. OIAI:RofAN : Mr. lblg. MR. KXJG: Well that's • • • is a loogstanding fight between the R.M. of DaUJ;hl.n and the Town of DaUJ;hl.n. - (Interjectioo) - No, but h0!7 will this effect it, it's a pipeline that's canying water. MR. TALLIN: Just oil and gas. MR. KXJG: But does it sey that?

MR. REIMER: ••• in the defini tia1. In the J\ct. MR. KXJG: I thought maybe we had solwd the Town of DaUJ;hl.n problem. MR. PAWLEY: Do you want to change the wanting quietly here . MR. KXJG: Include the Town of Dauphin. MR. OIAIIM\N :

Section 13 was read and passed . Mr. Reimer. MR. REIMER: "Used in the transportation of petroleun, petroleun products or gas." It 's defined. MR. M:XJG: eh. MR. GRAHJ\M: Ve ry good. MR. OIAIIM\N: Title passed : Prearrble passed : Bill be :reported. Are the partp"llets being distributed . MR. S<liREYER: I think, Mr. <ll ai:cnan , that the prqxJSE!d anendments have already been distributed .

And I might add for info:r:matia1 of honourable mesrbers that the anendrents that are contained in those sheets are anendrents which haw been - I think meni:lers would be interested to knew - haw been discussed with the City of Winnipeg and the City SOlicitor and are agreed upon. MR. OIAI:RofAN: We' w had a motion that we adjourn. Ccmnittee rise .

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-1-ma3
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 1st hansardpdf ma3.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	f1be2413f04fa54fb3206e6a5ed2fa7c533c5a09

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