VOL. 1 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. FRIDAY, JU~E 4, 1982 NO. 16

____ ...J.__ ------ June 4, 1982 'l'he nouse met at 10:00 A. M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair . Tape 922 EC - 1 MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : Order , please ! MR . Sl'EAI<ER: Development . MR. WINDSOR: STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS The hon . the Minister of Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to announce the establishment o.f a new Capital Assistance programme designed to sti.:mulate and encourage further development of the ocean industry sector in this Province . SOME liON . MEI-tBERS: Hear, hear ! MR .

WINDSOR: As outlined in the recent bud get address for fiscal 1982 - 1983, government has provided a fund of $1 . 5 million to be available for incentives to businesses which manufacture equipment or provide technical services related to ocean and marine industries . This government is determined to encourage the expansion of Ne\vfoundland companies .i:n this area and to attract new ocean-related industries to the Province .

This assistance is evidence of gove rnment ' s commitment ~n developme nt nf ~ diversi­ fi~d ~ >CC<ln i nuust.•· ius see tor to cum:Jlcmc nt anti en hance the traditional relationships of our eeonomy with the sea. This programme , planned as a short - term incentive measure is designed to be complementary to existing feder<2l and provincial programmes and \-liJ.l be available during the fiscal year 1982 - 1983 only. The Capital Assistance prog r amme is planned to provide conditional grants ·19oR

June 4, 1982 Tape 922 cc - 2 MR . WINDSOR : to ne'l-1 or expanding ocean manufacturing industries and ocean service industries. These grants would amount to 50 per cent of the approved capital costs of the proposed project. Jess the amount available under the existing Regional Development Incentives Act (<DIA) agreement, to a maximum grant of $500,000.

Existing RDIA Industrial Incentive grants to manufacturing industries normally avcr<~Qe iln il.mount cquo:~l to 35 pc:-r c~o•nl. 0f .lf'l''"''"'''d capital costs . ~s such, the supplementary qrant provided to e:igible manufacturing firms by this programme wou:d amount to approximately 15 per cent of the approved capital costs . In the case of eligible service industries where RDIA assistance is not available in Newfoundland, the total qrilnt of 50 per cent would be provincially funded .

These incentive funds, which would be secured via mortgage on the assets, would be forgiven over a four year period at a ra te of 25 per cent per nnnu111 nnd wou1c1 PC disbur::;cd when commercial operation of the proposed facility commences. Ar.y unforgiven balance of the grant would become cue and gayable in the event the facility ceased operation, or subject to revie'" on any change in benefic ial ownership or control of the applicant company . In addition lo the Capital Assistance programme, the budget address made reference to the government's intention to grant exemptio~s from retail ·1s a 7

,T\1 n c• 4 , J g R 2 Tape No. 923 MJ - l ~!R. WINDSOR: sales tax for capital investment in machinerv and e0uiument in the manufacturing and processing soctors. The obiective of this initiative is to facilitate enhancement of local manufacturing opportunities which,in turn,woulcl imuu.ct such thinqs as import substitution, our industrial com?etitiveness,and em~loyment. This programme i< aimed primarilv at small local businesses and will be an additional incentive for their growth and diversification.

Nevertheless, its benefits will also be available to companies wishing to 0:.L1hlish n0w· venturr>s in the Province r1epenclinq,of course, on the merits of the particular cases and the impact on emnlovment and already established local companies. Both programmes will be delivered by the Denartrnents of Development and Finance on a case-hy-case basis and in accordance with annropriate quidelines, eliqiliility criteria, and conditions of annroval to be detailed later. 1\1\J llni\J. MI':Ml'l':R: Hear, h~ar! HR. IHNDSOR: ·~r.

"neaker, ·this government has stated quite clearly on nany occasions its intention to ensure that maximun benefits from offshore development accrue to Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. The capital assistance programmes makes available, in this Province, incenti ver; similar tr those offered to the ocean industry sector by other neighboring provinces and will help to ensure the continued development of Newfoundland and Labrador as a center of excellence in ocean related technology and to foster the development of this important sector of our economy.

The RST exemption programme is more hroadlv based in its obiectives but is nevertheless complimentary to the Canital Assistance uroqramr.n.e. It is just another example n f the tk~tcrmination of this qovernment to encourage, generally, development of our industrial base and, Mr. Sneaker, I might 18EJA

June 4, 1982 Taoe No . 923 MJ - 2 MR. WINDSOR: sav too , to re~lace orogrammcs that h<~vc hnen orovi,clcd by the fc•clc rul !lOVe rnmt' n t. in ol hi'· · 1' nw i twt~s . SOME HON . MEMSERS : '-ffi . t<\l . <"ALLAN : !-1~. S'PF.AKER (~usselll : M~ . <'..ALLA.Iil : Hear, hear! Mr . Speaker . The hon . the member for Bellvue . Mr . S~eaker, obviously it is Fr.iday aqain . Not much enthusiasm in the minister's words, Mr . Spc<~kcr, or the desk thumoinq that follows, ordinarily on Friday mornintts when we h~ve these Ministerial Statements . ~>lr .

Soeaker, \ve nrc tnlki.nq .:lbout $1.5 million here which , of course, would mear. <l lot or ltt•<ll th cnrl' services, Places like the ~arkland Hos~ital and so on . MR . G . \-JAR'REN : ~~- CALLAN : Hear , hear! But \¥hen vou are talkina about incentive grants , a ,:>i ttance really , $1.5 million . 1 mP.iln, how m<my companies are we talkina about here?

Are we talkinq about bailinq out comoanies that are in financ ia l difficulties already or are we talkinq about the startinq up of new companies related to the offshore and that sort of thinq . 'l'here .tn• ..1 nuntlu .. •r or qut·st iuu~; lht •l't• ;md we will be verv haooy to hear the further details thot thr minister savs will become available later on . But as l said earlier, it is just a matter of the finqer in the dy!•c . M~ . S. NEARY: Right on ! ~R • CALLAN : And r believe what it is doinq actuallv is suoolementing t~e De~artment of Pural Develooment - MR. NF.J\~Y: Riqht on! M~ .

CALLAN : - and the kinds of gran ts that they have been qivinq out over the vears . 19b4

June 4, 1982 MR. CALLAN: questionable. MH. NEARY: work. Tape 924 PK - l Many of them have been very Another giveaway and that does not MR. CALLAN: Many of them have been very questionable indeed. And for yea~s, Mr. Speaker, we have been qs~inu [of ~ list pf the grants and to whom they went. The minister of that department will not give us the names and the amounts and indicate whether they are going to buddies of the government or people who are really doing a fine job of trying to build up a company and an industry with the qood of this Province in mind. r.m.

SPEAKER (Russell): Are there any other Ministerial Statements? ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Premier who does not seem to be spending very much time in the House these days, and when he does come he is here for a half an hour at a time, a half an hour a day. MR. WARREN: MR. NEARY: The most expensive Premier in Canada. The most expensive Premier in Canada . I would like to ask the han. Government House Leader (Mr.

Marshall) if the Premier's absence is an indication that he has now started his campaign for the Leadership of the Tory Party of Canada. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I gather the question is motivated by the fear of the hon. gentleman of what is going to become of him in the next election, when they are reduced to two or three seats. 19711

June 4, 1982 MR. WINDSOR: MR. MARSHALL : Tape 924 PK - 2 He is hoping he will go away. The fact of the matter, Mr. Speaker, is that that question does not warrant a response. As to the Premier's absence, the Premier is absent on business connected with the Province, on the Mainland. So the hon. gentleman's comment is really, you know, the type of question that the hon. gentleman is used to making. Perhaps we could comment on the fact, in return, that the hon.

Premier and all mcml.Jers of llw c:lllcus were here during the Budget Speech and just barely over 50 per cent of the Opposition graced these Chambers to hear the Budget Speech. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. WINDSOR: MR. SPEAKER: of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! They were in New York. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the han. Leader There are an awful lot of Newfoundlanders who have their fingers crossed hoping that the hon. gentleman will throw his hat into the ring. That may be one way to get rid of him. Mr. Spcak('r, would Uw han. gentleman indicate - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! MR. NEARY: Maybe, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentlemen may be getting nervous because I got my eye on that seat over there. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. NEARY: the pay is good. MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! I like this job, Mr. Speaker, and Order, please! There is only one more move now - one more move I have to make. MR. SPEJ\I<ER: T woul cl ask the hon. l.t~;J.tlt'r , > r t ht' Opposition to get on with his question. 1 9 7 ·1

June 4, 1982 Tape 924 PK - 3 MR . NEARY : And I got a good crowd working for me too, Mr . Speaker. I got the best caucus 1 9 i (

June 4, 1982 Tape No. 925 SD - l MR. NEARY: tl:J.at a man could ask for. But I would like to ask - MR. PATTF.~SnN: You have qot them all in the front row so you can I<P.P.D Vnllr PVP. on t-hPm . MR. NEARY: That is right, all in the front benches, not in the back benches. Mr. Speaker, T would like to ask the hon. gentleman if - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! MR. NEARY: - the official position of his party is to encourage the Premier to throw his hat into the ring,or will he be supporting Mr. Davis of Ontario? Mr.

Speaker, the reason I am asking the question, is this the real reason for all these vicious attacks on Ottawa that our little 'Brian' has now suddenly become really ambitious and is going to go after the top job of the Tory Party of Canada? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. -- - --- Ml{. NI\1\I{Y: W••ll, M1. :;IJ•'·Ik<•l, Ill•• 11<>11. gentleman obviously is not going to respond so I will ask the hon. gentleman a question that is a little closer to horne. Now, Mr.

Speaker, when the Government of Canada and the Parliament of Canada passed this legislation for a power corridor across Quebec it can only, of course, succeed with the good will of the Province of Newfoundland and the Province of Quebec. It will not succeed, Mr. Speaker, if the combative attitude and policy of this Province continues. Now ,Mr. Levesque yesterday was quoted widely across Canada as referring to the hon. Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) as a blackguard and an ignoramous. Now, Mr. Spea kcr, we c1 rc: nn t a 11 owed to use these terms. I do not think we can use these terms in this hon.

House. 1 9/ :~i

June 41 1982 Tape No . 925 so - 2 MR . WARRBN : Icmoramou!': 1 ther~ i-; <me there in St . John 's l~est . MIL NI~J\HY : An d I Mr. Speaker, although \.,.e mi<;ht agree that they described the hon. gentleman to a 't', we do not think it is a goo~ healthy sign, we do not think that it creates the kind of atmosphere that we need to get that f?O\.,.er corridor across Quebec .

And what I am asking the hon . gentleman now is to inform the House if this al!-out \.,.ar betwee n Newfoundland and Quebec is going to continu0. and if it does continue,then will. it postpone the possibility of us ever getting a po\.,.er corridor across the Province of Quebec to export our surplus power to the markets on the mainland of Canada and in the United States? MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : 11R . t-tARSIIJ\LL : The hon . President of the Council . Mr . Speaker , I thank the hon. gentleman for coming to my defence . SOME HON . MEMBERS : ~ear, ~ear ! MR . Ml\RSIIJ\LL : As to Mr .

Levesque 's comments, \vC have no intention of resPOnding to them . If he wa nts to get down to the area of his DPT0.PivP.n nersonalities, I never met the. qcntleman in my life and obviously the only bit '' 1 ,.; ,1 t. i,.; 1 .w t ion Lh,1t; one tl'lkes rrnm lt is th0 fi1r:r thllt he obviously had to base that on the matter of a hearing and my appearance before the '19 i LJ

June 4, 1982 Tape No. 926 NM - 1 MR. MARSHALL : ~arliamentarv r.ommittee in the !louse of Commons in OttilW <l i:lnd since this ohviotts1 y struck horne and caused this type of reaction I consider it to be an outstanding success. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: The position of this government, Mr. Speaker, is the .fact that it does not wish to be involved in disputes with ot~er provinces, as the hon. gentleman in his usual exaggerated fashion paints them.

What this qovernment is doing is attPnDtincr to get rights .for the people of Newfoundland, the rights tn "''., i ~ 11 they are entitled, and they will not be pushed off u ~ by anybody either outside the Province or,.for that rnatter,inside the Province. With respect to all of the matters our relationship with Quebec on the Lransmission or powc'r, llvdro power and what have you, our position is ·.~lain. For seven years we have attempted to negotiate and to negotiate in good .faith with Quebec. There were no negotiations from them.

The last rnectinq with the Province of Quebec occurred in Halifax in September of last year at the request of the Minister for Quebec,where we talked about the matter of hydro power and hydro transmission. Subsequent to that I wrote him D ~1rec or four PD~~ letter Lhill I believe has been tabled, if not I can give it to the members of ·~•e House, or the public, giving a resume of the meetinq in­ dicating that once again Quebec had not been prepared to put anything substantial on the table and until it did we could not talk sensibly with them on the m~ttets thilt were of rnutuill concern to us.

This was follo\-red some six or eiqh t weeks later by a very short letter from the Minister of Energy of Quebec, just merely saying, and I am paraphrasing it but substantially these were the words, "I acknowledge receipt of ·1 8 i ~I

June 4, 1982 Tape No . 926 NM - 2 MR. NJ\RSHJ\LL: your letter of .. - that letter to whi ch 1 referred -"Your letter raises many interesting points , perhaps we can talk about them sometime-" Now that is the kind of attitude that \•le have had. The attempt of Quebec , you see, is to delay . They do not want to negotiate, they want to del;,y I'N"."lll~c e~ch day they delay they make thousands of dollars, each month that they delay they make millions of dollars from that horrendous mistake to which the bon . qentlerr.en there opposite were a party in giving away our Upper Churchill resource .

So each day that goes by they stanrl tn nain a fortune . They intend to give the impression, •1ivC' 1 ip !';C'rvico to the fact thilt they want to neqotiate but, in fnci::, their actions show they do not negotiate. And because of this , this is why this aovernment took the initiative and enacted the reversion case. The reversion case is now before the Supreme Court of Canada . we trust that will be heard too in an early fashion, in an expeditious fashion as well as other cases have been by that court . And when that is done, Mr.

Speake r, then Newfoundland will be in its rightful , position to reclaim its resources. Now, when \ole are in a rightful 1 8 i R ..

June 4,1982 Tape No . 927 ah-1 MR . MARSHALL : position to reclaim our re~wun:cs I <JUilr ilntce the hun . ycnllcmcn Lh<.!rc upp•>:;it .. ·, ~h . :;p._·.•l..•·•, and the members of this House that this C)ovcrnmenl will not be giving them a\'lay again . SOME HON .~~ERS : Hear, hear ! MR. NEARY: Hr . Speaker . MR .SPEAKER (Russell); A supplementary . The Leader of the Opposition . MR.NF.J\RY : 1'1r . Speaker, it will be forever to the shame of the Opposition of the day that they did not raise these matters at the appropr iate time . The l'linister of Justice (Mr .

Ottenheimer) to/ho was in the Oppo s it~on at the time and the Minister of of Soci<ll Services (Hr . llic;kcy) \~ho w.-1s in th...: OpJ'<'Sit i.•o .11 tih• I lllh ' did not rnise a finger of objectiun . It will. be !'on.•ver to their shame that they \-:ere so neulirtent - t1R . OTTE!J"!EI~R : no lnfor'1n~io:-: . t'IR. NEARY : 1\nd you were a member of the government \oJhich qilvc -Mr. Speaker, th<:~t thev vcrc so neqligent in that they did not object . They voted in favour of this,by the way . Now, Mr . Speaker , let me ask the hon . rtentleman aqain ·· .l\N liON . liCtl!iE:Rl.. MR.

NEARY : lt rniy!lt svuntl yootl in the llousc . They did not raise their voice in objection to that bill . All the information ;o~as put on the table and they voted in favour of it . It 1vill be forever to their shame that they did not oppose it . ~lR. !;1)1•:1\KI•:U : Ortl•'• - , plt·ol:>l' ! I would request the hon . Leader of the Opposition,time is running out in the Question Period and I would rPnuest him to 11et on 1-1i th his question . MR. BARRETT : Time is running for the oppositi<Jn. t-1R. IIODDEI~ : ------ You arc touchlny a sore tJoinL n. >w . MR .NEARY : Now , Mr . Speaker , in order f<>r 19i7

June 4,1982 Tape No . 927 ah-2 MR.NE/\RY: the power corri~nr across Quebec I " : '"'.,'I., ·cl. I hink, ll11• hom. •W ill ll'lll.ttt wi II .t'Jil'l' llt.ol thet·e must be good \·.•ill on both sides, on behalf of the province of Quebec and the Province of Newfoundland . Now in the event that this all-out \ ... ar - and these are pretty tough words, Mr .

Speaker, a blackguard and an ignoramus, pretty touqh words . ~ow if that war continues,can the bon . gentleman forsee,even though the legislation is on the st~tucs of Canada, can the hon . qe ntleman see in the fores~J.c future a pO\.;er corridor going across the Province of Quebec? rli~ .SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon . President of the Council . MR. t-\1\RSII/\LJ,: ~lay I first comment that that surely musL be the fir st indication o( any group of people in .:tny parliamentary practice who complains because the Opposition did not tell them ho \.,r stupid they were . SOME HON .MEMBERS : Rear, hear ! MR .

MARSAJIALL: As a matter of fact .and as a mdtter of recocd to a.ll intents and purposes there wa~ no legislature here because nothing was revealed to the Opposition, ., 9/ F1

June 4, 1982 Tape 928 EC - 1 MR . MARSHALL : absolutely nothing at the time . There was no Questio.\ Period such as we are go ing through nO\~, there was no l'ublic Accounts Committee, there \.,as no revelation at all, there was secret borrowing in Cabinet so, you know, make no wonder that the Opposition of the day did not have the information. But t.llc hon. gcntlcm.:tn thcr~ t'PI'\>!'iL,, had the information . He had it himself, and now he complains again because he was not told how stupid he is, but then, the people of Newfoundland have told him that again and again some four or five times since then .

SOME HON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh! SOME liON . MEMJJERS : llcar, hc<lr ! MR . MARSHALL : Now, he said, 'Must not there be good wi 11? And what is the purpose of trading insults? ' Aside from trading certain insults with members of the Opposition, which one has to do, because one has to respond to insultinq quc~tjons, there' hil~ been no trading of insults as far as this Province is concerned . v1hat this Province has done is it has continued to assert the rights of the people of Newfoundland to that power, and des?ite Mr .

Levesque or anybody else from the mainland or anybody in the federal caucus on the Liberal side of the House , we intend to do exactly just that in the future in a calm and dispassionate way by speeches, by statements here in the ~ouse and statements before parliamentary committees. He refers to war time and again, and I \'i'OUld again point out that '"e are not enqnqcd in .:1 mnltcr of w<ar wiUl \lny<>n\~, we iln.: C'II<J•l'l''d, Mr . Speaker, in asserting the righLs of Newfoundlandl!rs, ·1 9 i ~

June 4, 1982 Tape 928 EC - 2 MR. ~11\RSHJ\LL: their rights in Confederation, nnd assurilHJ that the s e r ights are secured , not only f or people no1·1 li vi.ng in the Province , but for generation s yet to come, and particularly , the youn ger people . SOME FION . t-1EMBERS: Hear , hear ! MR . MARSHALL: ' Now, do ~·e foresee any difficulty? ' he says , with respect to this transmission line .

I huvc to poin~ out again that obviously , as the hon. gentleman knows, there is a very strong lobby that has been mounted by the Quebec interests, to preclude the passage of that act and to allow that act to die on the O.rder Paper - or that particular !l.cction to die on the Order Paper or not be proclaimed - that act , I say, that Bill No . Cl08. If this occurs, it will be a tragedy and , indeed, a crime towards the people of Newfoundland and I do not anticipate it will . It c ertai nly will not be accepted .

But given that it is passed and if it is passed , then the next question comes ~bout the transmission corridor. I repeat once i'I<Jilin that this qovnr nment quite loqically lolill expect the federal government to enforce its own legislation , and if il.legi tima -te roadblocks are put up against the establishment o f that l ine, we will expect the federal gov-ernment to enforce its own legislation . On the other hand, it has to be borne in mind as well, that after the bil.l is enacted , '1 9 8 fl

June 4, 1982 Tape No. 929 SD - 1 MR. MARSHALL: there must nee(,s be an application to the National Ene:::-gy Board which this government is in the process of preparing and will have all ready to go. AnJ then after that, lo and behold, the matters of the design of the line, the course of the line and the environmental concerns in addition to being considered by the National Energy Board, is going to have to be considered by the federal Cabinet. So there are hurdles to go over, there are, you know, ways to treac yet, it is not just open and shut when that bill goes through.

But, as I say, we will expect the co-operation of the federal government in that matter, ln the rrteantime, we are at war with nobody, Mr. Speaker. The insults are not coming from this side of Canada, from Newfoundland and Labrador, the insults uru comlnq c, 1 sewh<·rc. 1\ I I we• d rc dn i ll<J, M1 • SI•<'.IK<'I , 1,; valiantly attempting to enforce and get justice and equity and the rights of the people of Newfoundland. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): A final supplementary, Mr. Spcakc;r. A final supplementary, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, 1 want to assure this han. House that the fear that the han. gentleman 4ust raised in his

preamble to the answer there about the corridor legislation dying on the Order Paper--despite the efforts of the national Tory caucus to vote against this and the two MPs from Newfoundland to abstain from vot·inrJ in L1vour of this bill! Mr. Chretien toJc! our cuucu::; .1.ecently during his visit to Newfoundlan~ that that legislation will remain and it will become the law of Canada. But my concern, Mr. Speaker, is when it becomes the law of Canada,then is the hon. gentleman advocating and I would gather from his answer when he said that the Government of Canada will be asked to enforce their own law, is he suggesting that if Quebec for some reason or other c<:~nnot ·1 9 b

June 4, 1982 Tape No . 929 so - 2 MR.

NEARY : negotiate with this Province because of the battle of the words, because oJ the personalities o r 1111' p0op l c inv olvo<l in ncqotiwtions, becaus e of lack of good fa ith on either side , is he advocating that the Government of Canada be ask ed to force Quebec through some means or other, it is not quite clear what he means by it, is he sug ges ting that the army, for instance , be sent in to force Qunbcc to qive N'ewfoundland a corridor across the Erovince of Quebec , 0r would it be better , once it becomes law , to sit down and negotiate in good faith with the Province of Quebec and try to get the good \-lill of the people of Quebec before we put a transmission line across that Province?

MR . SPEAKER (Russell} : The hon . President of the Council. MH. MAHSIII\LL: Mr. Speaker , ·ther e are a number 111 qliL~stions . I 1vi ll say that, 1 supp ose , this side of the !lous e and indeed all Newfoundlanders will stack the two , the hon. James McGrath and the hon . John Croshie up against the disgraceful exhibitions of the hon . Willia m Ro.mpkey - SOME liON. MEMBERS: Bear , hear . Ml~ . HAHS IIJ\I,IJ : - and his cruislinq tribe in the fede r al government as far as standing for Newfoundland a ny day, any day of the \<~eek..

I am glad to hear that he has received his message from the Minister of .1ust ice (Mr ·Chretien) when t.h.e ~1inister of Justice 1o1as down conferrinq with the Liberal caucus and did not confer with this governmen t. .19 b!

June 4, 1982 Tape No. 930 NM - l MR. MARSHALL: rerhaps the hon. member can respond as well as to whether the Minister of Justice also indicates that the federal government acknowledqes that these Newfoundlanders now are no less Canadians, in 1982 than they were in 1966, and that they should ho.vc had th~ll riql\L in l966,and whether or not the federal government is goino to compensate Newfoundland for not protecting its rights and the consequential losses of hundreds of millions of nnll~r~, indeed billions of dollars,on the Upper Churchill.

With respect to the enforcement of their law -look, to hear the han. gentleman, the hon. gentleman happens to be on the other side of the House,but presumably he is a Newfoundlander and presumably, Mr. Speaker, when he speaks in this House he is speaking in the interest of Newfoundland,and to get up and to insinuate for petty political gain the fact that good faith on either side is an indication that therp hns not been good faith on this side in our negotiating, it is disgraceful and scandalous of the hon. member to hurl the insult no matter how petty political the hon. gentleman would be.

There are times that the hon. gentlemen should know on ~ffshore and in negotiations, that even if they are Liberals they should stand for the Province of Newfoundland and its people. SOME HON. MEMBERS: 1-le~r, hPnr! Riqht on! MR. MARSHALL: Now the facetious question of Will the army be sent in? You know that is the type of question, the extremes that the hon. gentleman goes to.

I am not going to respond specifically to that but just to say that any self­ respecting government, be it a provincial government or be it a federal qovernmcnt or l.lc il c1 muni,·ip~ll lJOVL't·nmc'nl, wlti,·lt enacts a law. obviously expects that law to be complied with and obeyed. And we would expect then the federal govenment, as being a self-respecting government and the Central Government of Canada,to enforce its own laws. If it makes a 1 9 b ·\

June 4, 1982 Tape No. 930 NM - 2 HR .

HA RSHALL: law that says that there is to be a power corridor through the Province o£ Quebec at last , W::! 1~ould ~x}:)CCt that they sec tnat there are not spurio us matters brought up with respect to environmental concerns and desi qns by the Province of Quebec before the National Energy Board .and most especially 1ve will expect that the legi timate aspirations of th e people of Ne\<.•foundland in this area will not be subsequently denied by the Fede ral Cabinet as a result of the superior numbers of the Province of Quebec 's representation in ll11• 1·\·dl'r,tl l.il·~·r ·.rl (','lu<.:uH . SOME liON .

MEMBE RS: MR. TULK : MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : t"'R . TULK : Hear , hear ~ Mr . Speaker . The hon . member for Fogo . Mr . Speaker , I have a ques·tion for the Premier but in his absence I guess I will ask it to the President of the Council (Mr . Marshall) MR . NP.ARY : He is out on the campaign trail. MR . TULK : - and it concerns that gentleman in Ottawa whom he is so proud of , Mr . McGrath , who yes terday , I understand, spea kinq in Halifax, suggested that Canada , namely the 1 Nl<"'r;~l qovcrnment, not the provinces, should have supremacy in t h•· '19bu

June 4, 1982 Tape 931 PK - 1 MR. TULK: fishery, I guess control and jurisdiction. My question for the PresideJit of the Council (Mr. Marshall) is this; Is this the policy of the Tory Party of Canada? And how does the minister react to that statement? SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Council. MR. MARSHALL: Hear, hear! A good sensible question. The hon. President of the Mr. Speaker, it has always been-u.nd 1 you know, in the Tory Pu.rty u.s contru.s Lc•cl w.i th the Liberal Party,we are not mice and we have variances of opinions. The difference in the opinion of this government and the hon. Mr.

McGrath when he was Minister of Fisheries is a matter of record at the time, The government of this Province feels very strongly that control over the fisheries and many aspects of the fisheries should repose in the Province of Newfoundland,because this is the only Province in Canada where its major industry, or its major resource lies within the concrol of the federal government. And we are seeing the ~ffects of the control of the federal government , for instance,in the carting off fish stocks daily to foreigners,in the failure to respond to the legitimate concerns which they have. But let me say this, Mr.

Speaker, and let me draw this to the attention of the hon. member because perhaps he might be refreshed,if it is possible to refresh the hon. member at all, let him bu.re in mind, u.s I suy, lhcrt.'WiJS ,1 lt.'<.JiLim.JLcdil.ll~l·cncc!lJelwc<'ll Mt. ~kl;t.tllt ?.nd the ·1 9 d .S

·.a. Jun\! 4, 1982 Tape 931 PK - 2 MH . MARSIIJ\LL: government on this,which is ..1 m.Jtter of record when he was in government and that is refreshing in itself. Nould that, Mr . Speaker, there could be leg itimate differences and the same things could adhere between the members there opposite and Mr . William Rompkey and the five quislings that reside in the federal caucus up there . SmtE liON . ~1EMDERS : Oh, oh ! MR . MARSHALL: Maybe then we would move just slightly a bit further towards the attainment of our legitimate rights. SOME HON. MEl'IBERS : Hear , hear ! tl~_. . 1'_\Jl.K : Mr .

Sp\!nkcr, 1 see we nrc now getting some vinegar on our fish and chips. The second part of that statement, ~1r. Speaker , that was made by Mr . ~1cGrath was that he believes that the comba .tive stance between both levels of government , the .provincial and federal government , he says it is leading to .:1 deterioration in the fishing industry , if I understand h i m • ·o n·pc L 1 y . MR~ 1-IEAR'i : That is right. MR . TI,JLK : Before making that statement - I would like to ask the President of the Council (Mr . Marshall) if Mr.

McGrath did indeed consult with the provincial minister or government before making that statement, and does the government agree 1,rith it? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon . Pres ident of the Council . MIL MARSHALL : I keep repeating, I know the hon . gentleman could not understand it, Mr. Speaker, because he is a product of thos e days where the government - when you used to 'l 9 b f1

June 4, 1982 Tape 931 PK - 3 MR. M.l\.RSHALL : see the First Minister here aod the ministers would almost get down on their knees before they would approilch him in the llousc of 1\sscmbly . MR . TULK : That was when you were over hen! . MR . MARSHALL : So he cannot understand \oJhat I told him . He cannot get it through his cranium - SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR . MARSHALL : MR. TULK: 11.n . nAR~E'rT: M.R . MARSHALL : Oh , oh ! - the fact that - Nasty ! Nasty! 'lou \·li ll h«vc to CXI) 1 il in vJI\c'T"< • 1 hi 11 I s. The fact that it i!i not necessary for Mr .

McGrath to consult with this government be£ore he makes statements . By and large 99 .9 per cent of the time we ar e consummate ly pro ud of the stateme nts that are made by the two federal Tory representatives in Canada . SOt-lE HON . HEMBERS : Rear , hear ! HR . MA R Sr~L : They are true Newfoundlanders ond they stand up . So Hr . McGrath ·19 d I

.l'tm" II, l9A2 'l'aoe No . ~32 MJ - 1 Mn . 1-1 . M7\ "q!';fii\LL : did not consult with us when h~ maoe the statement and t 'know that \-lhen Mr .

McGrath speaks ilhr>ut- cr>mhill"i vc- sl"ilnc-c- 11nt1 I hilt, he hn.vinq the r.!Xf>.eri.cncc of ,.,.hat he has to endure daily in the House of Commons realizes himself where the c::ombat , the \>~'ar and the aggression and the hostile acts come From,as was indicated and evidenced so vividly in the refencu. ' l:>v the federal government d irectly to the Stmrc>mo ('ourt of Canada, oi an issue that most vitallv affects the people of this Province and is one of the most important in its history, tne disposition of \olhich is an utter c'Usqrace to Canada . ::_;OMl" HON .

IIIT.MBERS: Hear , hear! ~m . 'l'UT.K: Gone from fish to oil again , ~n· . Spl"nker. . •1r . Sneal:er . ~m. . £Pt-:/\l\g!'l (Russell) : ---- 'l'hc hon the member for f'oqo . MR . Ttl.LK : I \•lOuld like to as)< the President of the Council (Mr . W. Marshall) if he indeed will be reconfirming the uosition of the Province to his Tory colleague and tn the 'l'nry T.P.>~rtPr in Otta\ va, \·lhoever that might haJ?pen to be, whc ~ h(~ r i ~ i s the "Prem:i.e r of this Pro vi nee or Joe Clark . MR . SPEAKE~ : The hon . the President of the council . "'R. M/\~SflA.LL : Mr .

St>eaker , we do not need really to reconfirm anything . I would ask the hon g entleman there opoosite is he orenared to qo to his colleagues 1 the five qui slings i.n the fcite.ral caucus,and say to the gentlemen that they should t.1k1• the- :lcl ion t-h:11" ~f'ni'ltor Cook took nn(l rc-'sirm from the caucus , resiqn from the Liberal party f.or their - S0~1F. HQN • t.m""fBERS : Bear, hear! MR . MAR~HALL : - for their hatchet job on the 196H •·

June 4, 1982 Tape No. 932 M,T -2 MR. W. MARSRALL: people of New"ouncUand on the offshore,and their disqracef.ul continued ~epresentation of the oeoole of this Province. SOME RON • MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MIL 1\. 'I'IIT ,f<: Mr. !.:p,';tkl't". MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the member for Bellevue. MR. TOLK: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the ~inister of Social Services (Hr. T. Hickey). I see the Minister of Health (Mr. w. House) squirminq,but I have a sPeech later on in thP. morninft in which I ~Jill be <lc<~linn wlth him.

I want to ask tho Minister or Social Services, on a scale of one to ten how hi.qh i.s the oriority reqardinq f.oster oarents? How hiqh in his Department, on a scale of one to ten? MR. SPEAKER ('q,ussell) : Services. MR. '1'. RICKJW: stranqe auestion. MR. BAlH<£'iT: l'tR. HICKEY: The hon. the ~nister of social Mr. Speaker, that is a rather It is a stranqe nt;or!;"n asl:inq it. Given the fact, Mr.

Speaker, that I have been wearing a button for about a month noH annound nn to all I talk to and ;.,rho see me, as \vell as mv ~<tnf'F, thnt thoro js ;t week cominn up, n snecin1 week, tk•si11n0d lw mv t!~·t'•lll.nK·nl with the suppart ~f mv colleaques,to hiqhliqht and ernnhasize and recognize and thank foster parents for the tremendous work thev do in this Province. '!'he hon. qentlman wants to kn0\'1 \vhat is mv T.)rioritv. I do not think ! can have one hiqher th<~n th<lt. 111R. YOUi~G: 'l'hat is riqht, ~ir. l'!R. W. CALLAN: Mr. Soeaker, a supplementary. Ml\.

SPF.1\KP.R: A supplemen ta.ry, Lhc hon the member for Bellevue. '19i:ii=l

,Tunr 4, lgR2 Tape No. 932 MJ - 3 'm. 1'>7. Cll T,T,/\ 1\1· Mr. Speaker, the minister knows ~s T kno". and my colleague from St. Mary's - The Capes (Mr. L. Hearn) who attended a foster parents function in I',Llkt'lnwn in th<' hi!>l:nric district - ol l~cllcvuo l~st ni .qht knows, that the minister has been quoted as saying that ·1 9 ~Hl

:June 4,1982 Tape No. 933 ah-1 MR.CALLAN: foster parents are on the lowest runo. of priorities in his department. Would the minister confirm or deny that he already said that? MR. YOUNG: MR.NEARY: MR.CALLAN: MR.HICKEY: It is -what? -the lo'•'est rung? The lowest rung. r-u-n-o. Does the hon. gentleman want to give me the source of who made that statement? MR.CALLAN: Oh, yes, no problem. MR.TIICKEY: T f you can qivc· me the soulTL' then maybe I can attach what sense or sanity there is in that statment. MR.CALLAN: MR.SPEAKER (Russell) : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Th~ hon. member for Bellevue. MR.

CALLAN: The guest speaker of that function we attended last night was the national secretary, the national secretary of foster ~)arents across Canadil an<l in his remarks, Mr. Thomas Heffernan ~utlined to all and sundry present, number one, that the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) in this Province was supposed to hold a press conference highlighting this special week which was set aside. The press confer0nce was never held.

He and other people associated with foster 1>arents could not understand why the press conference was never held but he was quoted as saying from an informed source, that the minister had said that assistance and so on and priority for foster ._,arents was on the lowest rung of his ladder. So there is my source. MR.SPEAKER: MR.liTCJ<EY: has a habit The hon. Minister of Social Services. Mr. Spc<1k<.~r, the hon. qcnll<'llldn lately of digging holes for himself. He has just dug another one now. MR. CALLAN: Which hon. oentlPman, 'Thomas Ileffernun? MR.HICKEY: Would the hon. gentleman touch base 1981

June 4,1982 Tape No . 933 ah-2 MR . III CKEY: with that gentleman, Mr . Heffernan, . 111<1 t <~11 hi 111 th:tt i r thi s mini ~t<'r 1 ike nny other minister were to call a press conference and make an announcement in s uch g lO\•Jing terms as I am capable of - SOME liON . ME1·'iBERS: Hear , hear ! MR . IIICKEY : - that the hon . gentlemen Opposite would be the first to say \ve are by- passing the people ' s !lous e in making an announcement while the House was open . Mr . Speaker,I came into this Chamber on Monday and I read a Ministeriat Statement . MR . CALL'AN: I was here . MR.

HICKEY: I have never been in the habit of gettin g down on my knees to the press or the media . They very often contact me . I d~d not have a call or " qucs L ion r rom the media a t that pa:rticuJ nr time . I am not in the habit , Mr. Speaker, of complaining . It is not Eor me to attach a priority that the media might 1vant to attach to •vhether or not Foster Parent Week is one in \vhich there should be great statements or great coveraqe hy the media. I do not try to mana ge the netvs, and a nyone 111ho has usually bas ended up inni <l<' .

N<)W, Mr . f>pc;1kcr , l <· l me c.1t<:qc.,r icn J ly make this statement for record purposes . I do no t kno\v what the hon . gentleman - I am sorry , I do not kn0\·1 t.Jhat the gentleman that the hon . gentleman is referrin g to , who made the statement last night,is talk i nq about . If he had been at the Airport Inn last night where this minister to,~as - 198)

June 4, 1982 HR. WARREN: at one time. HR. HICKEY: . Tape 934 EC - 1 You cannot be in two places I am talking about the gentleman who made the statement. MR. WARREN: Yes, well, he could not be in two places at one time. MR. HICKEY: And if he had heard this minister make my speech in relation to Foster Parent Week and foster parents and foster children and all the rest, there would be no doubt in his mind where the priority is in my department for foster parents and the Foster Parent programme.

Neither would there be any doubt as to the commitment of both myself, the government and this department, who have in the last number of years, Mr. Speaker, increased the rates to foster parents. Last night, I announced to the foster parents in the St. John's area that we are embarking upon a programme of training to help foster parents understand and deal with and wrestle with the very difficult problem associ­ ated wi.th the rnisquidcd m<llbch<lviour of chil(]r(•n that we are forced to place with them and ask them to care for, anC: by ·th~ ~my, Mr. Speaker, in which they do a tremendous job. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ' HICKEY: But the Foster Horne programme was never geared to be a treatment facility, it was to ·provide love, affection and care in a normal way. We are going to expand that now, recognizing what other governments have failed to recognize, that there is yet another component that we might be able to assist with by way of '19 8 .-!

June 4, 1982 Tape 934 EC - 2 MR. HICKEY: workshops and training proqrammes. Mr. Speaker, it goes without saying that anyone who has a heart throbbing in his body could only attach the highest priority to the people who care for children - MR. YOUNG: Hear, hear! MR. HICKEY: - who are not paid because it is impossible to pay for love, affection and care - \1R. YOUNG: That is right. MR. HICKEY: - and yet, who do a tremendous job to keep children in their homes, love them and care for them. And yet, when we go and take them and place them for adoption, they have to let go of them. They do a tremendous job.

We arc grateful, we are ever grateful and we will continue to he so. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has expired. Before we proceed with other business, I would like to indeed welcome all the groups to the galleries today, but I would expecially like to welcome twenty-two Grade VI boys from St. Pius X Boys School and fifty Grade VIII students from Upper Island Cove. I welcome you all to the galleries today. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, as always, this side of the House gets the answers to questions th:l.t are asked by hon. members, as quickly as possible, and gives very full replies. "] 9 9 i,

June 4, 1982 Tape No. 935 SD - l DR. COLLINS: I would like to table answers to question 70 and question 74 placed on the Order Paper, May May 14th. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: I would like to table the answer to question number 62 on the Order Paper, May 14th. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. MARSHALL : Order 2, Committ ee of Suppl y . On motion, th.1 t t:h<' ll0US<' n·~;" 1 V< ' itself into Committee of Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chait:. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : DR. COLLINS: MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Mr. Chairman. !lead r . The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Chairman, just to get matters going in continuation of where we left off yesterday, the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) made a few remarks and I would like just to comment on them. One of his remarks dealt with the change in the programme for dental services to children and he indicated, he sort of paraphrased what he suggested the Dental Association had said in regard to that and in his typical fashion, of course, he overstated what th~ Dental Association said about it, at least the report that I saw on television that the spokesman for the Dental Association said.

Again I am paraphrasing ,but I recall that the Dental Association indicated they had some concern on the matter and that they wanted to discuss the matter and, indeed, they have made re~resentations to discuss this with the hon. Minister. of llcolth (Mr. Tlnuse) .1nd later with myself in association with the Minister of Hea lth. They did not in any way say or make such remarks as the hon. Leader of the Opposition made,such as th is is going to ruin the teeth of the children of this Province, this is a tremendously backward step and so on and so Forth. '19 8 s

--'- June 4, 1982 Tape No. 935 so .. 2 I)R. COLLINS: These are typical overstatements by the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) . And we are nnly ton ql<t<'l to discuss this matter ~"ith the Dental Association . I \~nuld emphasize, Mr .

Chairman, that t:.hls move \olas made only after repeated consultation with the advisors , the dental advisors, the dental experts, in the Department of Health \•lhO very clearly and un-equivocally stated that this \'Jould have no detrimental effects on the dental health of the <:hildren or this Province and , indecd . that the money that \"as now being paid out for this particular seryice could be better utilized to improve the health, including the dental health , of the children if used in a diJ:ferent manner . So that is the perspective that should be put on that \"hole matter . In a similar vein, Mr .

Chairman, the l.c<~d<~r of the Oppos i.tion ma<'lc such -r:-emurks in reqard to the phas e out of the cottage hospitals at t~kland and at Old Perlican , that this vias th~ 'I 9 8 Fi

June 4, 1982 Tape No. 936 DR. COLLINS: beginning of a wipe-out, this was the beginning of a decimation, this was the beginning of a total disbandonment of the small hospitals in this Province or specifically the cottage hosptials. Mr. Chairman, the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) the other day said, I believe he visited the Legislature in Nova Scotia, and he said he was impressed by the comments on both sides of the House in NH - 1 regard to matters that were of meaning to the people in th~t Province. r hope.!

Lhut_ he would bl' .11Jic Lo ln·inq Lll.tl s,lllh' message to his collegues in this Housc,bec~11S0 such rcmnrks ~s the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) made about what we suggested we were ooing to do in regard to two of the cottage hospitals were not - these remarks were not designed to help fruitful debate on this subject for the benefit of the people of this Province. What we were doing in regard to Markland and Old Perlican, we were approaching this as a change in service, indeed as an upgrading in service.

It was determined in association with the Department of Health,that in Markland and in Old Perlican the exhibition of services there was not attuned to the best needs of the people there. Their needs wert' not For sm :1ll hospit.1ls which W('rc' built .11Hl de}:iqn0cl to satisfy services fifty years ago. Things have changed in the fifty years. There are other needs now. There are other facilities that were not in place fifty years ago and our move was to change the service, and indeed upgrade the service, particularly the outpatient service which is a service that such communities as those two communities need.

There was no intention whatever to diminish needed inpatient services . As a matter of fact,the outpatient upgrading was to includL: such inpatient services as would be needed, those inpatient service~ of an emergency nature, but that the more regular •jg 8 7

June 4, 1982 Tape No . 936 NM - 2 OR . COLLINS : type of inpatient services , especially those \~ho would need more sophisticated care than they could be given in small, \.,rooden, relatively spartanly furnished and equipped hospitals , those more sophisticated services could be given in regional centres which are now appearing in many parts of this Province and.of course,for whi.-!1 wo • h.•v•· ., proqr.1nuu<'. W<' h."'V< ' ;, fiv<' Y<'·'r proq1·.unmc to brin q more of them in . Mr . Speaker, the hon . Leader of the Opposition (Mr .

Neary) also made a few other remarks, I do not need to go into it in any great deal, that is about road s to cottaqes. Re suqqestcd there that there should be no spending on roads to Summer cottages . In other words , \.,e should have a very narrow type of service exhibition in thi s Province . We should only spend in certain areas , but never spend anything in other areas , which,of course. is ~ very one ·dimensional view of 1-1hat C'fOVernment services are supposed to be .

Also , he ne9lected to S<IY thnt these costs will be fully recove red, the cost s for these road nccesses to cottaqe areas will be fully recovered wht•n ll\\' lots th.JL th\! ronds were <JOinCJ to were sold . He also made some remarks abou t spending on jai ls and so on as thoug h this wa s 198rl

June 4, 1982 Tape 937 EC - 1 DR. COLLINS: something that the Province should not concern itself about. We all know, and indeed I believe members of the Opposition have stated in this House themselves on a number of occasions, that our correctional centres are not up to par, th~t they have deficiencies and defects \vhich must be corrected, that we would have been open to criticism if we did not take moves in that direction and, of course, that is what we have done. And it is very ncccssury tn do those sorls o 1- thi nqs.

Mr.Chairman, there will be other rerr:arks made, but I hope they will be mort' enlightened and I will not have to comment on them so extensively. MR. NEARY: MR. CHAIRMAN (Ay lward): Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman. The hon. the Leader of the Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman in his comments, in his rebuttal, was defensive and weak and just proved to the House how incompetent that minister is in his job of managing the finances of this Province. Mr.

Sp~u.k.cr, Lite !ll'UJ> I c u I Old Perlican kicked up such a fuss about the closing of their hospital that the hon. gentleman was partially overruled by the Premier and if he were an honourable man, he would go out and resign and admit that he made a mista~e by including in his Budget Speech an announcement that these two hospitals would be closed. The hon. gentleman can get up and argue all he likes about roads to Summer cabins of wealthy people being a top priority and 19~-=~

"'"'- June 4, 19!S:t Tape 937 EC - 2 Hll. NEARY: will n0t cost the taxpayers ~nythinq, wh~n in actuaJ r<lct, Mr .Chairman, the track record is that it does cost the taxpayers . They may attempt and try to get reimbursed for the initial cost of driv ing a road in to a pond so that the moneybags, especially in St. John 's, can have access to the prime Summer cotta ge areas in this Province, but there is no way, Mr . Chairma _n, that the money can be recovered . ~nd the next thing, they \vill want the road paved and then they w·ill want water and sewerage put in .

NO\v, that is the government ' s priority - put up tbe cost of hospital beds to the sick and to the dying and build roads to Summer cottages and build jails . They have spent almost a s muc h money 2 'l ;; n

June 4, 1982 Tape 938 PK - l MR. NEARY : on building jails in this Province in the last four years as they have on capital expenditure for hospital construction. They have cut back on hospital beds , they have increased the cost of hospital beds to the sick , they have reduced the children's dental care programme. Despite the remarks m.lde by the hon. gentleman yesterday,the Minister of Health (Mr.

House) and his officials who attended the Committee meeting did not know the answers and they had to go out and qet on the telephone and call up and find what effect the cut in the children's dental care ~rogramrne \vas going to rave on children's teeth. They did not know the answer. They did not even know if prior consultation had taken place. So, Mr. Chairman, this ull started yesterday, >-his tenor of debate, when the minister said that there is no reduction in services in this Province. Mr.

Chairman, the people in Old Perlican who wrote this little dialogue that I have in my hand here entit .led 'The End Of l\n Era'must have taught th0.rc was some curtailment in services. Here is what they said, "Passed away suddenly at Old Perlican on May 27, the Cottage Hospital after a fatal blow inflicted at the Confederation Building.

Leaving to mourn the communities of Winterton, Turk's Gut, Hant's Harbour, New Chelsea, New Melbourne, Brownsdale, Sibley's Cove, Lead cove, Old Perlican, Daniels Cove, Grates cove, Red Read Cove, Bay de Verde, Low Point, Caplin Cove, Lower Tsland Cove, Jobs cove, Burnt Point, Gull Island and Northern Bay. Will be sadly missed by patients, relatives, and a faithful staff. Funeral September l, 1982, unless desperate resusitation attempts are successful. Your help is needed and fast. And keep in mind that if you represent an area - and keep in mind, Mr.

Speaker, if you represent an area that now has a cotta~e hospital,you may well be fighting the same battle 2!Jui

June 4,1982 Tape No. 939 ah-1 MR. Nl,l\RY: within a year or two~ Now, Mr.Chairman, I heard the shiny -nosed, bright-eyed member for Carbonear (Mr. Pcuch) assuring the people down in Oid Perlican that ·1t this point in time, he says -just listen to the cute little words- 'At:this point in time they have nothing to worry about'. At tll.:j.s point in time: Well, at what 1mint in time do they have something to worry about?

Cun the hon. ycntleman stand in this House and assure these people in Old Perlican and all these communities that I just named,some of them in the hon. gentleman's district, can he stand in this House and make a categorical statement that the cottage hospitals will not be closed? MR. PF. l\Cll: The Premier sent them a telegram. MR.NEARY: The Premier sent them a telegram. Mr. Speaker, I wonder how often during the day does the hon. gentleman kiss the Premier's picture? MR.PEACJT: Twice. MR. NEARY: Twice a dav. NIL PEACll: GuaranteeJ.

MR.NEARY: There are other hon. members over there who kiss it more often than that and sometimes they have to turn it around to kiss it. I would say the hon gentleman is putting blind faith in the Premier. I urn askinq the hon. gentleman if he would stop playing with his silly, childish words, these cute little words, "They have nothing to worry about at this point in time." That is not a withdrawal of the closing of the hospital. The government may be looking at turning it into a home for geriatric care , a home for senior citizens. They may be looking at it.

I would gather reading between the li110s when they were talkinq about the fire marshall going out and inspecting the home, that that is probably what 2 rl'u ·; ., r

June 4,1982 Tape No . 939 ah-2 MR .N EARY : they had in mind . They are stalling for time. The hon . member for Carbonear (Nr . Peach) and the hon . member for Trinity -ilay de Verde (Mr . Reid) are stall~ng for time,hoping that ~~e thing will die down, hoping that the people out there 1·lill not kick up a fuss, tha~ it will just go away . But it is not going to go al·tay, 1-1r. Chairman, neither in Markland or in Old Perlican .

One of the worst.most cruel thjnqs that this government did in the Budget was to increase the cost of hospital beds and announce the closing of two hospitals and a reduction in the children's dental care programme while at the same time they announced a new jail, a new jail . ~1r . Chairman, their priorities are building roads to ponds so that the moneybags can have access to 1.-.nd to build Summer cotta<tes and buildinq jails, those are their priorities. so, ~r . Chairman, I hope we will hear no more of that nonsense from the Minister of Finance (Dr .Collins) .

I also raised yesterday about how the minister nnd his officials :H·c manipul<~tinq thc­ ll,Jurcs , <.~rc c.;roukin•J the.: IJo•,ks I>Y L •·•n:;l ,., 1 i 11•1 i t.t•m:: 11"111 current acc ount s tc capital accounts , items that urc ordinarily current account expenditures . 2ou ··

.... June 4, 1982 Tape 940 SD - 1 'lou are totally \vr.ong . ~m . 11 1\!HH~'I"I' : ~IR. . NEARY: I am totally wrong . Nell, I am goi n•t to probe it a little deeper now and find out who is riqht or ~o~ho is 1<1rong. I am going to ask the minister to qivc me before we get off this subhead , to give me the details of the following items . Perhaps t he hon . gent leman can \vrite them do1vn. Mit . 11/\ltHI•:'J"I': 'l'ablc it . MR . NEARY: No, I will not table it, I am asking for details of in the 1982 Estimates , Item 103 , page 4, Cons olidated Fund Services , how that can fit under the category of capital expenditure . Also 403 (

d) Newfound lan d rncJustrial Development Corporation Loans and Advances, can the bon . gentlema n give us the details of that so we can ascertain - MR. BARRETT : ~lR . NJ::l\RY: MR . 01\RRETT : Ml~ . NJ::/\RY : Which one is that? Item 403, page - There is no 403 . No, but these are items that are t r·;m :: r 0.1Tt'<1 from cur ren ·t accou n t to capita 1. ~m . llt\lmT::'rT : Are you doing Consolidated Fund Services . MR . NEARY : Yes , I am because that is what we arc dealing l"ith, the publi c debt and borrowing - Mr .

Speaker, the hon . spokesman for Crosbies in this House uoc!> not un<.lcC'stan<l the situation so I would advise him to keep quiet and not sho\v the House that he is also a blackguard and an ignoramous . SOME liON . MEMBERS : Oh , oh! 2 0 L,

June 4, 1982 Tape 940 so - 2 AN HON . MEMBER : That is unoarliamentary . MR . NEARY : If it is unparliamentary I 1vi t:hdraw it, t-1r . Chairman . I am only repeating what Mr. Levesque - MR . BARRETT : You would not like to rcpeul lh~t outside would you? MR. NEARY : Yes, I will repeat it anywhere for the hon. gentleman . But I would suggest the hon . gentleman return to his scat . If he is goinq to continue to interrupt· 1 Me. Chairman, an<.lma:<e .J fool ul him!>e!f, ht · ~hould r•'\111 '11 I•• h1:: seat . But if that is unparliamentary , Mr . Chairman , I wiLhd•·•l'" it.

It is not unparliamentary in the Province of Quebec . And the hon . gentleman need not give ~e a black look . There is nobody on this side of the House scared of the hon . gentleman . And I would suggest the hon . gentleman return to his seat if he wants to con tinue to interrupt; and let us qO on '"ith the business or tryinc1 to r1et ro th(' rO(>I of the ma nagement of the finances of this Province . 403 Newfoundl and Industrial Development Corporation Loans and Advance s - $ 3,500 ,000; 506 (

d) Publications, alterations , Property Furnishings and Leased Acco~odations, an item that was al ways under. current now transferred to capiLill I $786,000 . 507 (

d) Public Works Advanced Planninu - 2 h.i :i

,Tun e 4, 1982 Tape No. 941 MJ - 1 MR. S. NT\1\RY: could we have some details onthat? - SnO,OOO? Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, Grants ann Subsinies, $8.5 million, would the hon. gentleman give us a few details on that? NORDCO, page 103, item 604 in the current estimates. NORDCO, Grants and Subsidies, $200,000, could we have a few detai+s on that? And then under 804, Fisheries, T'rnf0ssion.<l Services, $75,000, c<Jn we have a few details on that so we can see whether it should be current or capital? 1-lR. TULK: That is the minister's barber bill. MR.

NEARY : The reason I am asking the hon. qentleman for information on these sudheads is because the hon. qcntleman made a statement yesterday that this was always the nolicv, that this was always the custom and tradition and he shrugged it off. I am saying it is a pretty serious matter. It is cookinq the books, it is stretching the definition of current and caoital, Mr. Chairman, when you see these matters being transferred.

The reason they are being transferred is because the hon. qentleman knows he can borrow money under capital but h0 r.onlc'l nnt halance his hudqet under current. l\nd that is the rc<Jl reason for it. So Professional Services in Fisheries. And then 606 (

n) Development,Marine Industry Incentive Program, $1,500,000, a few details on that would be very worthwhile. And this one here 1004 (

d) Rural and Aoricultural, Loans Advances etc., $350,000. Can we have a few details on that? M~. Clll\J'<'~"" (l'"l'vilrd): Order, please! T'le hon. mem~er~ time has ela9.sed. M'1 • NF;A '>.Y : Thank you, Mr. Chairman. -------MR. CHAIRMAN : The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. ,J. COLLINS : Mr. Chairman, the hon. member again rri.tt,ratcd the pni nt-_., T have already responded to in reqard to the dental programme, in regard to the hospital programme, in regard to th( ' 1·n; Hl~~ ;uJ<I rr.cr<'<ll·ion.<l :1rc:-us which will bC' fully recovered 2 n lj R

,Tunc 4, 1982 'l'a1>c No . I) 4 1 ~1.1 - 2 OR . J. COLLINS : when these recreational areas are sold . You kno~"', I do not know what the point is he is trvinq to make . He ra ises a ~uestion and then it is answered and then he will raise the identical question again . Does he want me to qive the identical answer aqain? You know, r mean this is essentially qoinq over qround that has b~cn <icddNl upon bv the hon . member oooosite as a useful attack to make . Then when the attack does not qet anvwhere,he ~oes not have anvthinq else to qet into so he makes the attac k all over aqain .

So 1ve coul c'l qo on like this forever but it really 1voul d not ~rmtributc• vcrv much to the" work of th<' Commi ttC"l' . 'l'lwn• an• many thinqs in the estimates there that should be IJOnt' inlo, not reiteration o~ blunted attacks time and time aqain . Now, again on the matters he has iust brouqht uo , abou t certain items on 2 '0 7 !..; J,t

_;,.,!__ ,June 4, 1982 Tape No. 942 NM - 1 IJH. l'IJLLINS: capi tu.l account, und he read out a number of subheads. He read out,for instance,403, which is in Finance, it is not in Consolidated Fund Services. He read out 506 which is in some other department, 604 and so on and so forth. All these heads will be coming up in discussion when those particular departments are on there. So again this is not useful work for the business before the Committee at the present time.

The one thing he referred to that is before the Committee at the present time was 103 and there is an item in there 103-02 which relates to issues under a guarantee, $870,000. Now, Mr. Speaker, that refers to moni0.s thi1t ar8 issueo under - certain guarantees we have in regard to hotel holdings. In other words,the Holiday Inns and so on,that were built back in the- I think it was 1965 or 1966, anyway in the Come Home Year- during a time when the hon. memb0r,I believe,was a member of government. And these buildings were put up and they have never been profitable.

Government has had to subsidize these buildings ever since . When you look at them in the aggregate,one or two of them have been profitable for short periods of time. And we were on the backs of certain guarantees in regard to that. Now these imbursements that we have to make, these guarantees that we have to pick up are on capital account and they have been on capital account and this is why they are on capital account at the present time. They are not rcl.lh'd ln current onqoin'l,shu.ll we say,proqrarrunes for this government. We wish we did not have to pick them up at all.

But we were stuck with them because of things that were done back in 1965,1 believe it was, or perhaps it was 1966. Anyway,under the previous, previous administration, the Smallwood administration. ~no as fi1r as I ci1n sec,that is the only item that the hon. member 2!JUH

June 4, 1984 Tape No. 942 N'\1 - 2 DR. COLLINS: had brought up that I need Lo respond to in Lhis particular Committee . SOME HON MEMBERS: Hear, hear ~ MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman . MR . CHA~!AN (Aylward) : The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Obviously the hon . qentleman has not gotten the message yet . Nhat I am talking about here, 1-lr .

Chairman, is a rr.attcr of dubious practice in the .tccounl i nq, in the management of the financial affairs of this Province, dubious practice on the part of the minister and his senior officials in putting things under capital account that should be under current account. OR. COLLINS: You had b<~tLt~r qC'l .;1 lh'"' ,..,,.,,,,rch assistant. He does not know what he is doing. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Bear, hear ~ MR . NEARY : \vell, Mr . Chairman, I am goinq to ask the number one research assistant for the Province now, the minister, to give us some informatior, and then we will decide for oursleves.

I just gave the hon . gentleman a list of items that indicate a dubious practice. DR. COLLINS: Each will come up - MR. NEARY : No, they will not come up because we are talking about the public debt and \-"e are talking about the 2 ". i.,. ~ .. -

June 4, 1982 Tape 943 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: financial position of the Province. We are talking about how the minister manipulated the figures to balance his current account budget. And this is the time to discuss it. DR. COLLINS: I have discussed it, but if you want detailed information on Head 506, wait until the Department of Finance, in which 506 is, comes before the Committee next Wednesday. MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Chairrr.an. The hon. gentleman still does not understand what I am driving at. MR. DINN: He never even attended the Committee meetings last year. MR. DOYLE: No. MR.

NEARY: I am asking the hon. gentleman now before we pass Consolidated Revenue to give us a few details so that we can see if these items, or part of these items, the amounts, should be current or capital, and you will not determine that by just waiting for the estimates of that department to come up. -, will CJi ve the hon. gentleman four or five examples and then we will settle it and let it go at that. I just gave him a few there. DR. COLLINS: Put tnem between Head 101 and Head 105. MR. NEARY: Pardon? DR. COLLINS: Heading 101 and Heading 105, that is what we are dealing with in Committee now. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman,we are dealing with the public debt of the Province. DR. COLLINS: Right. MR. NEARY: We are dealing with borrowing. DR. COLLINS: Riqht. 2!J1fl

June 4, 1982 Tape 943 EC - 2 MR . NEARY : Right? DR . COLLINS : Yes, ask me about what \ole are dealing with in Committee now . MR . NEARY : \ve are dealing with the financial posi·tion of the Province . DR . COLLINS : RiiJh t. MR . NEARY : Ri~ht . DR. COLLINS : Ask me questions - MR . NEARY: Mr . Chairman, what I am concerned about is the fact that the government is cooking the books so that it can borrow money - DR . COLLINS : Where is it cooking the books? MR . NEARY : - for items under Capital Works that should be under current . DR . COLLINS : Where is it cooking the books? MR .

NEARY : I just gave the bon . qentleman examples . MR . DINN : MR . NEARY : I am all wrong . They are all wrong - again, still . The hon . gentleman says Perhaps the hon . gentleman would undertake to get the information . I am asking the Minis~er of Finance to give me some information on these items . Tell me what the spending is for and let the House decide whether or not it is capital or current .

I argue that all these items that I just gave were previously lir.der current account , and in the last b1o or three years th e minister has been chipping away and getting them over to capital so he can borrow tho mcncy to pay for these and Lo sho'" his current account to be in pretty good shape . That is cooking the books . That is manipulati ng the 2C I I

June 4, 1982 Tape 943 EC - 3 MH. NEA 'RY : figures .in any layman 's l.llltJU.:lqC . HR . NEARY : I have a whole list here . Look , I 1vill j;ell you what, I will give the minister the list with the page number and the item number and T ~m prepared to wait for the information if the hon . gentleman will undertake to get me the infor ­ mation , detailed information on each one of these subheads that I have listed here. ~'lould the hon . gentleman undertake to do that? DR . COLLINS : Surely . MR.

NEAR Y: Alright, and then we can qct on to the next item . no T have a promise now rrom the hon . qcntlcman that the list will - DR . COLLINS : AbsoluteLy . No problem whatever . This is not the work of the Committee at the moment bUt - MR . NEARY : No , but within a matter of a few days I would like to have the details on these items . OR . CO LLI NS : Yes , surely . 201/

June 4, 1982 Tape 944 PK - 1 MR. NEARY : Now, Mr. Chairman, the other matter of the sinking fund, of course, is a more serious matter. I do not want to repeat that aaa]n. NH .. N.r:...N.n.r; MR. CARTER: (Inaudible). Mr. Chairman, it is a fine day today, I do not understand why the hon. gentleman is in the House. On fine days you would usually find him out in the savoury patch on his hands and knees. MR. BARRETT: At least he is not in Ottawa on his hQnds and kne es . MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I thought I deakwith the hon. gentleman there a few minutes ago. MR. BARRETT: It would take a bigger man than you. MR.

NEARY: When the han. gentleman ~ot in fighting trim,! thought I had adequately dealt with him. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, you can tell in this House when you have gotten to a member, when he starts to try to stare you down, gives you the black looks, ci1.allenqes you outside the House. MR. BARRETT: (Inaudible'outside the House. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker,that is the defence then of a scoundrel. You know then, Mr. Chairman, that you have got him. You know you have got them on the ropes. When they react like that - when they react to fisticuffs, Mr. Chairman, LhL'n you know you hi1ve <JOL Lh<'lll. MR.

YOUNG: Oh my (inaudible) you aot them. MR. NEARY: Well,I have seen the situation deteriorate so badly i.n this House on two or three ocassions since I have been here where members have gotten a belt in the side of the gob or a belt in the face by a member crossing the floor of the Ho~se. I hope that does not happen this 2!] j '~

June 4, 1982 Tape 944 PK - 2 MR. NEl\RY: session. But if hon. gentleman kee~ interjecting and interrupting and he gets as qood as he can send,then he should be prepared to take it 7 at~ not to resort to challenges or fisticuffs,because there is nobody on th±s side of the House - smm HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MIL Nf.l\RY: Mr. Chairman, let me say this. AN HON. MEMBER: You are wastinq the time of the Hq~se, boy. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, there are ---- eight of us over here and we can outmanoeuvre, outfox, and outdebate forty-four any day in the week. Now,I do not know i[ we can outclass them physically. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: I do not know if eight can tackle forty-four in the ring. MR. CALLl\N: A lot of them are overweight. MR. NEARY: We might have to send for that great Newfoundlander Gerrv Cooney. We might have to s0nd l-or him to qivc us a hand. nut nobo~v over he~e is- 1\N HON. MEMBER: Another good Tory . MR. NEARY: - nobody is scared or afraid of any member on that side. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! rm. Cl\LLJ\N: A lot of them are ove~Neiqht. The bigqer they come the harder they fall. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I think that -- --·-- we have adequately dealt with this matter.

I do not see any point in repeating the things that I said yesterday about the debt of the Province. I do not see any point in repeating that. I think that we have adequately dealt with the matter and T hope it will be suitably reported to the people of this Province that the financial affairs are being mismanaged under this minister. 2 0 i 4

June 4, 1982 Tape No. 945 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: The minister is weak and incompetent and making an awful lot of people nervous Jbout his handliny of the financial affairs of this Province, The job is obviously too big for him. MR. TUL~: What is our credit rating now anyway? MR. NEARY: Our credit rating is, I would say, on the brink of changing, From the information the minister gave us yesterday . I would think our credit rating is being rev~ewed at the present time. MR. TULK: MR. NEARY: MR. TULK: MR. NEARY: Pricing them out of the Province. Pardon. Pricing them out of the Province.

Well,every other big corporation in the Province has gone bankrupt, I mean is there ~ny rce1sun why with the way that the firwnces of the J>ruvi.l<..:l' arL' llt'lll') handled today, that they would not end up in bankruptcy toot Mr. Chairman, so what I would hone is that the minister does not - MR. CARTER: (Inaudible) MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, they are awfully testy on that side of the House this morning. If the minister does not get up and start another argument, and if the minister does not provoke us into further debate, well, then, we might just let this heading go through and get on to Executive Council.

But T do hope the mess acre will qo out, Mr. Chairman, t.h <l t we are in a desperate financial condition in this Province. We have a debt of $3.3 billion or over $6,000 for every man, woman and child in Newfoundland and added to that will be $600 this year to take care of this year's borrowings, another $600 will be added to that,making the per capita debt for every man, woman and child in Newfoundland and T.abrudor to be close to $7,000 - for every mun, wom.1n nncl child 2 !] 'j ."i

June 4, 1982 Tape No . 945 SD - 2 ~1R . NEl\RY: in Newfoundland. The highest in t:he natio n, higher than any state in the United States .1 ml t hc· mini :>tl'l" h,ls the u<~l 1 t o <jet:. up und tc 11 us that our debt is manageable when every other province , and the Government of C.anada and every state in the United States are broug ht to their knees. And so, Mr . Chairman, maybe on€ or tHo of my colleagues may have a minor interjection to make into the debate . MR. DINN: You have made one point no1.,r in two hours . MR. NEARY : Well , I did not, Mr .

Chairman, I did not go out yesterday and make a fool of myself in the eyes of the ~1orking peop l e of this Province, going out telling the workers of Newfoundland that they must restrain Lhl"mf:c'1V0.S. T would like to hea-r the hon . gentleman cl,lbor.:.tc on that . 20 rt1

June 3, 1982 Tape 946 EC - 1 AN RON . MEHBER: (In audib le) . MR . NEARY : I 1-1ould like to hear the hon. gentleman elaborate on that . MR . CHAI~~.N (Aylward) : Order, please! MR. DINN: Why not ask a question today? MR. NEARY: MR. CUAIR.'1AN : f1R. NJ::l\HY : No, I will not ask a question . Order , please ! llcca us c tho.: hon . ~)1.!11 L I ~·m,lll has made a silly fool of himself now publicly and he has to live with it . MR. CHAIRMAN : Orde r, please ! Order , please ! The hon. the Leader of the Opposition's time has elapsed. DR. COLLINS : Mr . Chairman . HR . CHAIRMJ\N : The hon . the Minister of Finance .

DR. COLLINS : Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has given me a list and I certainly will get details on it . I will not ~ivc them alJ now because , as r huvc suid, they have nothi.nq to do with the Head we are on to no\", they are in departments ranging all the way from the Department of Finance to P~lic Norks and Services, through to th•2 Department of Development and all that sort of thinq, and all these estLmates will come up in their own time slots in the various committe es .

Now , just to reiterate - because I think the hon . the Leader of the Opposition may have a genuine misunderstanding on this - I will reiterate what I said about Heading 103, \vhic.h is under consideration in Committee at the present time . 20i7

June 4, 1982 Tape 946 EC - 2 DR. COLLINS: When Holiday Inns were being built back in 1965 or 1966, government went on the back of a guarantee for bank loans that were raised at that time by the corporation - Hotel Buildings, I think the corporation is called - went on the back of a guarantee for those. Now, those loans are becoming due as time goes on and they should, of course, in any sensible business arrangement, be serviced on the basis of earnings, profits out of those operations.

Now, the whole thing was so crazy when it was done back in 1965 - 1966 that these operations never made any profits, so the government has had to pick up the loans because it was on the back of the guarantee. Now, when we make loans, we make them out of capital accounts. When we enter into a guarantee, if we have to honour the guarantee at some point in time, that is the same as giving a loan, so we make it out of capital accounts. That is what the arrangement is. And this is what is ihlppcninq now.

When we make loans for structures, be it fish plants or hotels or trawlers or whatever, these are out of capital account because they are capital works and that is what is happening. Now, the same way -the hon. member, as I say, I will respond to those or get a response for him. But, for instance, in Head 403, which I believe is in Finance, if I remember correctly, that is with regard to NIDC, and NIDC again makes loans for industrial development and we make a capital contribution so that they can make these loans.

That is capital account, it has always been capital account and hopefully and expectantly, it always will be capital account. The same way 2 ;J i M

June 4, 1982 Tape No. 947 MJ - 1 DR.. J. COLLINS: in another denartment, I forcrct which clcpilrtment it is now Ikacl 50G, r~o,;c•rnmcllL hds lc · lc·.~s,· ,_,eric<· suace and buildings occasionally or fairlv extensively in uctual fact, and,of course, that amount of leasing will decrease when we increase our own buildinq on this property here, when we get into Confederation Building No. 2. But until such time we have to lease properties. Now when we lease those properties often they are not suitably set up for our purpose so we have to put funds i~to them tn make the tenants improvement.

We have to make them suitable. Again, that is capital expenditure. And that is what that 506 is. The alterations to lease the properties and so on and so forth down the line. Again, NORDCO comes into the same extent of things. So, you know, I will r7et the exnlani1t ion for the hon. member, <mel T think he wi ll qc~t a better qrasp of the difference between c.::ctrrcnt <md c.tpi L.ll account as a result of that. Now the other thin0 the han. member said is that we are in a desperate state financiallv in this Province. Now, of course, that is not so.

We are in a difficult financial state, but we are manaqinq that difficult financial state to a considerable deqree a great deal better than other Provinces with a much wider industrial base,with a much l<trqc~r work force, with more extensive sources of revenue and so on. But even some of the strongest provinces in Canada at the present time are in a difficult situation.

Ontario, Quebec, for the first time in some time,for instance,Nova Scotia, t-,Jc-w i'runswick, thc~y urc' in clc,ricit. positions now. 1\ll }>I'IIViJwc'!' are having increasing difficulties· We are not the least of those provinces having difficulties,but we have not had to slip hilck rrnm what we have alwavs done for n:uite a lonq period of time, thi1t is balance our current account and only borrow on c<tlli\:<11 <lccc>unt. 2 iJ i ~

June 4, 1982 Tape No. 947 MJ - 2 I)R . J . COLLIN'S: Now that is what we are continuing ~o do . Other provinces have not been able to keep up to tllo~L . 'l' ltt• f iJI<lncinl lim,•s lhtV( ' hcvn ,:uch Llwt they lwvc not been able to retain their traditional position such as \•Je have . So to say that \ve are in a particular difficult financial position is incorrect . But I will say this, that the \-l'hole country is in a difficult position nm..r and this is related to the mismanagement of the economy that has been going on for at least the last five or six years .

And we can see that, Ne can see what has happened to the Canadian dollar . It slipped below eighty cents in relation to the American dollar for the first time yesterday . I think it may have happened once in the Depression, but I am not even certain of that . Mil . B/\RHE'l"l' : !)I{ . J . COLLINS : at that time . No, no . T t: wu s ov<'r 0-i cthty cents . I think it was even above eighty cffiJts For the first time it slipped bel.moJ eighty cents . We find that there are more bankruptcies now in Canada as a result of the reliance of the federal 90vcrnmcn t, almost totally, on monetary policy 2G? n

June 4, 1982 Tape No. 948 SD - J DR. COLLINS: to combat inflation. We are now finding in Canada a higher rate of bankruptcies, I think it is about a 40 per cent higher rate of bankruptcies now than at the worst time in the Great Depression in the early '30s. We have an unemployment rate in Canada now which is matching those times.

The economy in Canada now is the most mismanaged economy in the world and provinces such as ourselves,who are having a difficult time at the best of times,are having to cope with these almost inexplicitly m.ismanu.ucd nal:ion<ll economic rnc:<1suros. l\ncl hnpc•rully nnw, when the Minister of Finance and the Prime Minister of the country are over in Europe, they will come back with a few ideas as to how to bring in fiscal measures which will finally beoin to turn it around, when in Canada we will finally get inflation under control,as they are doing in the United States,whereas we are now still on the up­ grade in many respects in regard to accomrnodatinq inflationary changes in the aspects of the world economy.

For instance, in the United States they have their increasing energy costs under control years ago but, of course, we all know that in Canada we are still trying to get these inflationary costs under control purely because of political decisions made ilt the tilllL' <ll the last general election.

There were proposals brought in at that time which would have brought our energy costs under the same control that was done in the United States at that time,but the administration that was proposing that unfortunately was thrown out of office and an administration was put in which did not pursue proper energy policies and so we find that our cnerqy costs are still going up. We were unique in the world in not having accommodated increasing energy costs. We were unique in the world and that was purely because of political considerations at the time of tho last olecl:inn 2iJ2i

June 4, 1982 Tape No . 948 so - 2 DR . COLL!NS : by the Liberal Party . SOMt: liON . Mm\BERS : Hear, hear . ~lH . IIAHRI·:'I"l': /\nr 1 1 i C"tf t () t 1H' PC'O:> 1 C . DR . COLLINS : They indicated they would not go alonq with certain energy co sts \'olhich had to be put into the economy . Not only did they not do that , they increased those costs and we are in the position we are in now . SOME liON . MEr>mERS : Oh , oh . MR . DARRETT : ~d lied to the people . DR . COLLINS : So despite the se tremendous pressures put on us, t-1r .

Chairman, I am glad to say that we have been able to manage with some difficulty, asking some sacrifice from our peopl e, but nevertheless doing it in the most se nsitive \o~ay we could to try to put any load we hacl to put on more on those with the ability to pay, Lo put it in areas where there was discretion not on necessities but where there was discretion , put the load there .

Havi ng done that . \-le have ma naged to keep o·ur provincial current acco unt in balance an d w e have managed, 1t1hil st giving a large amount of stimulation to Lh<' provincial economy, we have nevertheless managed to keep our capit al account expenditures v1i thin a range that we can han dle to the satisfactio n of 20L/

June 4, 1982 Tape 949 PK - 1 DR . COLLINS: those who lend us money and th<Jl><' lvho advise us about our financial affairs . SOME liON . MEr~BERS : ltoar, hc.:ar! MR . CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : ~he hon . Leader of the Opposition . MR . NEARY : I am not going to enter into continuous debate with the hon . gnetle~an over who is responsible Cor mismanaging the economy of this l?rovi.nce or the f'in<mccs nf this Prnvince'! . The hon . q<'nth,m;m lURt- m:ult' .1 ~t.ll•'lll•':ll that Canada is the most mismanaged country in the world .

Nell, if that: is so, we lead Canada he1·c in Ne1vfoundland in unemployment, the high cost of living, 10 1vest per capit.:t i.ncomc: . 1-.c must 1 cad Can.J.!<: i.ll so in misman..t•JCmcn 1.: . MR . YOUNG : The happiest people in the world. MR. NEARY : We are a very unhappy Province today, Mr . Chairmar. . An unhappy Province due to the mismanagement of tl:is administration . The situation - MR . YOUNG : The liberals are unhappy too . MR . NEARY : - Mr . Speaker, I am no~ so naive as to say that high interest rates and the inflation throughout the world is not takin q its toll .i.n Newfoundl.lnd .

J ,1111 not llt.ol N.livt' . lluL I WI II :;o~y I hi!;, I h.tl lhv ::i I U.JI 11111 in Ne1-1foundland is much worse than it should be because of the mismanagement of this administration. ~1R . NEARY : t1r . Chairman, I am not going to debate that now, that could be a long and continuing debate \oith the hon . gentleman , but I just want to go on record as saying that - for in stance , let me give the nousr. an example Lo sec if I Am cxa<Jrrcratinq . ~r .

Chcljrnliln, i!'> it necessary for the fishery in Nel.!foundland to be in the mess and the state and the chaos it is in at the present time:' Is that necessary, Mr . Chairman? I would say it is not necessary. 2 :} 2 ~

,June 4, 1982 Tape 949 PK - 2 MR . NEJ\HY : The problem in the Newfoundland rish ccy is marketinq and quality, and both of these items ('o nt •• umkt· provincial jurisdiction . The quality of the fish , Ill,• 111-11 k•·Lit1 •1 ol Ill·· I i~ll i:.; .1 l'tovitwi,,l <;ov••llllllt'lll responsibility . And the real problem in the fishery is marketing . And this government have not lifted a finger to do anything about that problem . They are merely sitting back and let the fish companies go to their traditional markets in the United States of shlppinC) cod block to the United States . The world is hungry for protein .

The world is starving, Mr . Chairman, for fish . The world is starving period . There is a desperate need for protein food and fish is the best source of protein that you cnn c1ct . But you cannot sh.ip cod blocks to India , to the underdeveloped countries, you have to change your product , impr ,.,vc your quality , diversify the industry, do further p•·oc- c·ssinq in Ncwroundlnnd . Forqct the traditional way of doing til i nqs .:lml the [ishcrmcn will have more income , and the plant 1vorkers 20 2 ,,

June 4, 1982 Tape No. 950 NM - l MR. NEARY : will have more inco::ne and the fish processors, the plant owners will have more inco:ne. There is the problem in the fisherv, m~rketing and quality. It does not come under federal jurisdiction. When the fish is in the water it is under federal jurisdiction, when it is put on dry land, on shore, it becomes the responsibility of this Province. And what have they done about it, Mr. Chairman? What have they done about it? The mainstay of our economy, the backbone of the Newfoundland economy, they have completely ignored it and all they can think about is oil and gas.

They have oil on the brain. While they are arguing and fiqhinq with Ottawa and Nova Scotia and the other provinces of Cune~c1<1, ilnd Lhc SU[ -'n.!IIIC' Courl, whi ltc I iiL'Y .trc dOLil<J Llroll Lhc_•y .II<' ignoring every other industry in this Province. They are ignoring the fishery, they are ignoring the mining industry, they are ignoring the forestry, they are ignoring the sawmilling industry, they are ignoring the agricultural industry. All they can think about is oil. They are putting all their eggs in one basket, Mr. Chairman, and that is where they are making a mistake.

And as a consequence the fishery todny is in the worst state it has ever been in in Newfoundland's history. Because it has been neglected and ignored by this administration. They have no plans =or the future development of the fishery. The Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) allowed his department, the spending in his department to be cut to the bone lhis year. There is less spending in the Department of Fisheries this year than there was last year. MR. YOUNG: boats. MR. NEARY: Burn your boats. Burn your Mr. Chairman, I would hope that while the hon. gentleman is giving us a lecture in this House 2 iJ 2 ;.

June 4 , 1982 Tape NO . 950 NM - 2 Ml!. 7'lf.l\RY : on how to manage an economy, 1 wo1tld hooc• thi'lt the hon. qentlemar. would qet up and announce today in this House that the government of which he is a senior spokes man , would brinq in a piece of le gislation into this House inunediately to either amend the terms of reference of the Canadian Saltfish Corporation, or bring in a piece of legislation to set up a provincial Crown corporation to market the produce of the sea . That is the only sane and sC'ns i b 1 I" W<W, f.lr .

C:hil i rm;m, to ~o l vc thi!'; marketi nq problem, Jn<l not leave it up to the indus try who are cuttinq each other's throats in the marketplace . Ne have to do one of two thinqs MR . NEI\RY : one of two thin~s , eithe r <1mcnd the terms of reference of the Canadian Saltfish Corporation to allo\._r them to market fre sh fish) fresh 2iJ;o;

June 4, 1982 Tape No. 951 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: frozen fish, or bring in a piece of legislation to set up a separate Crown corporation to market the produce of the sea. The longer we delay it, Mr. Chairman, the longer the fishing industry is going to be into turmoil and chaos and in the mess it is in at the present time because of the inaction of this administration. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I did not mean to get sidetracked off on that kind of a debate, but the hon. gentleman provoked me when he talked about the mismunuqinq - about Canada being mismanaged and tries to slough everything off because of the world conditions, the high interest rates and inflation. They have abdicated their responsibility, Mr. Chairman, they do not intend to qovcrn. J·:v<'n tiluuqh they have been given a mandate, forty-four seats, they are not governing. They have abdicated their responsibility. Mr. Chairman, under the British Parliamentary system of government you elect a majority.

TF you qet il m<tiority on one side~ of the llousc' they qovt•rn. You get an Opposition Oil the other side of the !louse wi Lh " IL•:;!;ot· number of members and then you expect that government, the party that has a majority in the House, you would expect them to bring in programmes and policies and plans for the development of the Province. Mr. Chairman, can you tell me the last time that this hon. crow~ brought in a policy of their own and laid it on the table of this House so that we could get our teeth into it and discuss it and debate it and criticize it? Can you, Your Honour?

That is just, as the han. gentleman said in his statement, short-term, putting your finger in the dyke. That is the kind of a policy that is. AN HON. MEMBER: You should know all about short-term policies. 2 'l ·, 7 ~,; '-

.rune 4, 1982 'T'ape No . 951 NM - 2 MR . NEARY : Mr . Chairman , you know the more I debate in this llouse the more the hon . gentleman gets flushed up over there. The hon. gentleman should go down in the Legis~ative Library , or go over at t>lemorial University to the new library over there and do some research and try to become a qood member and not sit there snipinq at members day in and uay out and showin<J his arrot}anca and his nastiness. '!'he hon . gentleman should try to become a good member of this Rouse, and good member for his district . He is not serving the best interests of his people and 2 0 L rl

June 4,1982 Tape No . 952 ah -1 MR .NEAR'i: the people of Nefoundland by sittin g here and sniping at people . That is no ,.,.ay to serve the best inter.:!sts of the people of this Province . Mr. C:hairm;:'ln, we .:1rc tk<1dly serious dOOUt Lht.!S~ 111i.lLLcn; . So the •JI >V<.:rnmcnL h,l>; L•t- SOME HON.MEMBERS : Oh, oh! HR.NEARY: Mr. Chairm.1r1, 1 i.sten to the arrogance comina through, the ;~rroqance . MR.CBAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order,please! MR . NEARY : !11r. Chairman, the go\•ernmen t has to go vern .

They have to put policies and proqrammes before the ttoust.: clil(} then iL is the duty nf the Opposi lion to criticize or approve of these programme . But the trouble is in this House, Z.1r. Chairman, there are no policies or plans ~r programmes for the realistic development of this Province . Mr .

Chairman, there are none. ilnd in the absence of these policies and p1"0tJI":tnuHC'l' all \ve are doing is sitting here wastin g time day in olnd duy out debilti:1<J resolutions, crtLicizln<J Lhc Guvt·rnn•~;nl of Canada , cond~;ing Nova Scotia , condemning poor old Rene Levesque or condemnin g this one or condemning that one . That is what we spend our time at in this House, Mr. Chairman. So if the han . gentleman Nant~ to continue that kind of debate on consolidated revenue ! vii t 1 be glad to accomodate him . I am hoping that we can get on to the next item, Mr . Chairman, but before \ve do.

I Hondcr i£ the hon . gentleman would be good enough to tell me, every time the exchange on the A~erican dollar goes up by one percontaqc point,lo/OtJlCl the hon .gentleman tell me \·lh.tl one pC!It.:CnLo~qc polllL 1111.'•111:-; in LVI Ill>: Ill till' .11 ld i l 11111.11 amount that we have to pay , say on $100 million? C.vcry time the American dollar goes up one percentage point wh..lt docs it mc<1n :.n terms nf doll<11·s unci rents Lo N,~\.Jf(ltiiHIIitntl per $100 million? 2 0 2 ,j

.11me 4 , 1982 MR . CIIi\IRMAN (l\Vh7ard) : on. COLLINS: Tape No . 952 ah- 2 Order , please ~ 'rhc hon. Minister of Finance . Mr . Chairman , I really think the hon. Leader o·f the Opposition does need a new research .\!"$ i st.Hlt" or nc-Nls ;"tn ncltli.tioni11 research nssistant or whntcvcr because 1 do not quite get some of the remarks h.e makes . I presume they are based on some fi<:rures that were qive n him . For instan<':e . he says that this year the expenditures by the Department of Fi sheries are less than last year . Now, I have in front of me on page - MR . BARHETT: There is no Opposition. Carried .

Carried . That is it . DR . COLLINS: speak to? i·1R. SARRETT: DIL COt.!. TNS : MR . 111\HRE'rT: IJIL t'OJ.I, I tll~: : MR. YOUNG: DR . COLLINS: a seat . MR.:.. 111\RHE'l''f: you . Have I got anyone over there to No . There is no one t here at all . l\ny 1<~ay just to comp1 ete it . Carry them all. 'l'hc n~viscd csLi lllitl( !:; liJSt ycur- Thev are cnming back . I am talking on fisher i es . Have even your own collca~ues left 203n ..

June 4, 1982 Tape 953 EC -1 DR. COLLINS: The

summary of current and capital accc-unt by departments shows that last year revised estimates was $16,335,000 for ~ishcri0R, $16.3 million, shall we say. Now, in this year our net expenditures for Fisheries, covering the same, current and capital, are $17.6 million. Now, as iar as I knO\oJ - and I may be 1·1rong, perhaps there is a ne1o1 math in or somethinq, but I always tbought that $17.6 million vtas larger than $16.3 million. AN HON. MEMBER: It is, yes. DR.

COLLINS : Now, if I am 1vrong in that I will come back to the Bouse later and I will apologize and I lo/ill make the necessary correction aut up to this point in time, I 1vould like to hold to the view that the rl!viscd estimates for: 1981 -19U2 ,1t ~~lh.J million is a lesser amount than the budgeted amount for 1982 -1983 at $17.6 million. I am going to hold firmly to that contention until I have it chcckc<.l out, and if I am 1vrong, if $17.6 million is actually smaller than $16.3 million, I will come back and make the necessary correction.

Now, other than e1at, the hon. member asked me, I think, if there is a one cent increase, if there is an increase anyway, in tha value of the American dollar, what does it mean for - Ml{. Nf·:AI\Y: $100 million? \•Ill.! L dtw :; i ( 111(.'<111 r (II" DR. COLLINS: Yes, what does it mean for this Province? Well, shall 1ve say, 11e borro~o1 usually at say 15 per cent roughly in the market so that ,,.,ould mean that on SlOO million we would 2031

June 4, 1982 Tape 953 EC - 2 Dt{. <.:ot .L!NS : have to pay interest of $15 million . Now, if there is a 1 per cent change in th e exchange rate, obviously, we \-IOuld have to pay, you know, an increased amount . It would mean that you would have to convert that $15 million American dollars into the equivalent in Canadian dollars and it \-'OUld be more . I do not have the exact figure in front of me now . I can get that , but t.here is no doubt it would be more . . MR . BARRETT: $150 ,000 would be 1 per cent on the interest . DR. COLLINS : Yes, about $150 ,000 would bn the incr t'Dscd amount . t-tr .

Chairman, I think \-le have reasonably \-lell covered the questions that were asked in this Head and I now move that the Consolidated Fund Services Head be carried . On motion, Head I, carried . MR . CHAIRMAN (Aylward): carried . MR . Cfll\IRMAN : DR . COLLINS : Mn . CHAIR!11\N (Aylward) ; DR . COLLINS : br ic( conuncnt on th is. House of Head II, Legislative . On motion , 202 -01 , Shall 202 -02 carry? Mr . Chairman . '!'he hon . the r--.ini ster of Finance . Mr . Chairman, a~ain just a very or course , thic; F.ead covers the 203 /

June 4, 1982 Tape 954 PK - 1 L>R . COLI.1NS: 1\ssembly, the operation of this House, and the services t:h.:tt this Rouse needs to carry on the Parliament of this Province That includes certain things such as the Office of the Parl iamentary Comoissioner , and it also includes an arnount that we contribute to ~he Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. In addition to the operation of th0 House of Assembly itself it also covers the Department of the Audicor General who reports to this House .

And I have notes on all these various heads and subheads of expenditure that I will be glad to give information from as requested . M~.: CHAIRMJ\_ll. J~y~~~!~]_: 'T'hc hon . l.c~l<~C'l' of the Opposition . MR . NEARY : The only comntt~nl £ want to make here , Mr . Chairman, is one that r,;e have made before, that we think that there are too many members in this Hou se of 1\ssembly . MR . BARRETT : for you,that is wtat is wrong . Too many Conservatives MR . ~~Y: No there are too many members, fifty -two members for a population of 565,000 people is too many members . ~m . B.~ RET'!': rid of LaPoile next .

In Nova Scotia fi fty-two seats - c .:~rc goinu Lo ~ct 2~3 ·l

June 4, 1982 1\!'!. 1:!2!'!.: _ MEMBER_: (in.:tucl.ible) . MR. CI\LLAN : T.1pe No . 954 PK-2 If you base it on population You have a city council. I!O\" m,,ny phone. ' cnlls <io you C)Ct a year, about a half? t-1R . NEI\RY : I wonder if I can be ~ermitted to carry on, Mr . Chairman? MR . CHAIRL'1AN (AYLI'VARD) : Order, please ! MR . NEARY : In Nova Scotia they have fifty-two seats, 858 ,000 people - 858,000 souls in Nova Scotia and only fifty-ti ·JO seats . And in Ne 1oJ Brunswic k they h:w, , fi fty-<'iCJhl sC'nl"!> . 'rh cy hove a fe1-1 mor<"' than here, based on 710,000 . And British Columb.ia , Mr .

Chairman, they only have more seats than we do for a population of 2,714 ,000 people . So, Mr . Chairman, I can only repeat that we have said here in the past several years, since the last time that the boundaries 1vere changed , gerrymandered , and ten seats put in the city of St . John 's and two or three more seats around 2 !J j I

June <t, 1982 Tape No. 955 Nt-1 - l MR . NEARY: the perimeter of St. John 's. \•1c claim that the balance is out of \·lhack . There are too many seats concentrated in the city oi St . John's. l~hy one street in the city of St . John's has more power than a whole community in the rural part of this Province . MR . DINN : flow do you fi()ure thnl? MR. NEARY : The ,.,hole thing is completely out of proportion . SOME BON • l-1EJ11BERS : Oh, oh~ t-1R . BARRET'!' : We represent people, we do not r~- present beach rocks. r-tR .

DINN: 1,000 people on the Coast of Labrador vote , there are 12,000 in my district vote and they havt' the same representation . Do not be so foolish. MR. CALLAN : How many voters are there in St . John 's West? How many? MR . NEARY : Mr . Chairman, ~ith all due respect to the city of St . John 's, and this is not resurrcctinq the old argument :i:>elwl.'cn Lhc b<Jymcn iln<.l Lhc p~oplc o! SL . John 's , I am not resurrecting that, I am merely statinq a fact, that one street in st . John 's has more power and more authority than a whole community in rural Newfoundland . MR.

BARRETT : Because they have better members , that is why . NR. NEARY : Most of the St . John's members - the majority of the Cabinet, the majority of members in the Cabinet are s-.. John ' s men, so, therefore, t-1r . Chair- man, you would e:<pect the decisions that are 2 :J 3 :i

June 4, 1982 Tape No. 955 NM - 2 MR . NEARY : made by that side of the Rouse to be urban oriented, no problem at all lvhen the project comes up in ~t. ,Tohn 's to qet it put throuqh . We saw an example of that recently when a topless lvaitress invaded the historic district of St . John's East . MR . CARTE.R: What can \ole do about witless people in the Opposition. MR . NEARY: The Minister of Energy (~tr . Marshall), who represents that district in the Legislature, moved fairly quickly , moved pretty quickly, Nr . Chairman , to qet the requlatio ns changed to bar this sort of activity . But he \,•as nc so quick on the 2il:JI1

June 4, 1982 Tape 956 MJ - 1 MR . NEARY : draw when a large number of his constituents wanted the Toronto Do:nminion buildinq dounLO\-In barred, stO!Jped. He did not act so quicklv then . MR . BARRETT : constituents. l1R . NEAR¥: :-test of them were not his :-;ost of them were not his comstituents, that is exactly the point. Ml( . Ui\I<IU.:'I'•~· : 'I'll~ ulh~ 1 IJI.'OPII.' w,~r~.• . MR . NEARY : The other people were n<ll hi~ constituents. The forty -three names on that petition wore not all constituents of the hon . gentleman .

And so, Mr .Chairman, this is a matter that has concerned me for some considerable time, the imbalance in the Cabinet, the imbalance in the make-up of the House of Assembly . I think the real pow'-'l in thi~ Province• is in rural Newfoundland . I think primary producers are i~ the rural parts of this Province, fisherman, fish plant \.,Orkcrs , loggers , paper makers, farmers live in the rural parts of this Province . They arc the primary producers, ycL we have this imh;il,JIW <.' , \vh1•r·c· .til l'ht! d~··i~ion na.1Y.inq i:1 rn tlw h.tnd:> "I members from urban centers and I think that is wrong, Mr . Chairman .

I think the number of members of this House: is excessive . It should be reduced by about ten members . Mr . Chairman, one of the things that I will do if I ever get the opportunity to occupy that seat that I have my eye on . MR . MARSHALL : Illusions of qrandure . MR. N . WINSOR: You will never get ahead os far as you are planning on, I will guarantee you . MR . NEARY : Mr . Chairman, I would like to 2 0 :j i

June 4, 1982 Tape No. 956 MJ - 2 MR. NEARY: ask the hon. the Minister of Development (Mr. N. Windsor) if when the Premier is not in the Province or not in his seat, do they have to go in the common room and kiss his picture while he is away? Or do they have a picture in his seat over there that they could k i ,;,; .? 2 iJ j rl

June 4, 198 2 Tape No . 957 so - 1 S0~1E HON . 1-LEMEERS : Oh , oh! ~ffi . CllAIRt-li\N (Ayl1-1ard) : Order, please! MR . NEARY : alone . All you have to do is leave him SOME HON . ME?·mERS : MR. CI11URI-1AN : t.ffi . NEARY : Oh, oh! Order, please! Mr . Chairman , I do not mind. I.ct them have their say , Mr . Chairman, I do not mind them o hit . SO~m BON . MEMBERS : Oh, o~! MR . NEARY : Listen, they are all going snaky over there, Mr . Chairman . They are all going snaky , listen . The mad hatter administration . Pretty soon now, Mr .

Chn\rmun , Lh<.:y wi II J,t• t:ominq wHh lltl' m :t !: . l.<•l 11<'1 '~'' · SOHE HON . MEr-mERS : Oh , oh ! HR . CHAIRt-lAN : Order, please! MR . NEARY : Mr . Chairman , I really do not mind because it just goes to show ho1., arroqan t hon . gen tlc:nen arc . MR . WINDSOR : lie has nothing to say , any1,.ay . MR . NEARY : I certainly do have somcthinq to say, something very important to say . SOME HON . M.El.ffiERS : Oh, oh ! ~1R . NEARY : I started out by saying that as soon as I get the opportunity to oc cupy the sea t that I have my eye on - MR .

BARRETT : You are in th<' shadow of I h<' nu t· or the out-House leade r, boy. MR. NEARY : - che nur.tber of members of this House will be reduced , guaranteed , Mr . Chairman , and the rural areas would be given stronger representation . AN HON . MEMBER : Good, good . MR . NEARY : can take - SOME liON • M~HBE:~S : That is guaranteed. The hon . 'lCntlcman Oh, oh! 2IJ J -.1

,June 4, 1982 •rape No . 957 so - 2 MR . NEARY: t-lr . Chairman , is this not great , is this not just wondarful . Now can I carry on now? MR . 111\RRI!:T'l' : You have been carrying on all mmninC'J . ~m . CIIAl!WJ\N (Aylward) : Order, please! HR . NEARY: Mr . Chairman, that is one thing that we will do . We will save the taxpayer s of this Province a substantial sum of money because the real problem in this House is not the controversy over pay , although that is a problem, the real problem is that we have too many members .

And when you have too many members you have too many telephones, you have too many special assistants , parliame ntary secretaries . The Cabinet is too large and we have too many members representing urban centres . So , ~tr . Chairman , two po)nts that have to be made while we are on this heading, two points . The number of members in the House has to be n~ducell , more i" line with Lhc gcoqraphy of the Province . SOME liON . MEMBERS : Oh , oh! HR. NEARY : I will tell you , I do not mind . I have lots of time , Mr . Chairman . MR . CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, plea se!

T wish to remind the han . members to my left that it is very difficult to hear the speaker lflhen there are continuous interruptions . The hon . Leader of the Opposition . MR. NEARY: I may never or I may, nobody knows, timing is very important in politics, Mr . Chairman . Timing is the most important thing in politics, hon . gentlemen should rcmcmhcr that . Mr . Chairman , just look at the way fate worked out in the end . After all the arguing and fig hti ng and battling I had to get in 201..!1

June 4, 19112 Tape 958 PK -l MR. NEARY: this seat over here, after the April 6, ele<:tion I hac it dumped in my lap. And I have the best caucus that a man could ask for. And who knows, Mr. Chairman, it may happen. The luck of the draw, Mr. Chairman, may mean that some day Twill b~ sitting over in that seat, it all depends on timing. But if I am, Mr. Chairman, let me say this to you, Your Honour's seat may be a!l right. It may be, I am ~ot sure. MR. YOUNG: ----You arc not dol.nq (innuct'iblvl ano the survey. MR. NEARY: No, \ve are not doinq the su rvcy.

But I can guarantee you this, that if I ever do get the opportunity to occupy that Chair that I lv.L 11 not spend my time having my picture taken and hanging it up in the lobbies of all the outhouses in the Province. I will not do that, but l 1vj 11 certainly make this commitment, thut J will reduce the number of members of this Rouse to save the taxpayers of this Prov.ince some money. And I 1o~ould give the rural axeas, Mr. Chairman, more representation than :hey have at the present time. SOMI·: liON. MI~Mill·:l!~;: llt•ol ,. , ht•.11·! MR. CHAIRt-1AN ( Ayh1ard): The hon. Minister of Finance. 2n . .. 4 I

June 4, 1982 Tape 958 PK - 2 DR . COLLINS : Mr . Chairman, I would just like to make a brief reply to a few of these remarks made by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr . Neary) . t\!L Bf\lUU~TT : None of them were relevant . DR . C9LLINS : First he suggested that Cabinet was composed by and large of St . John's members . Now ,I would take the view that that would not necessarily be a bad thing . But I am just saying that it is not a correct thing . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Rear, hear ! Dll. ('01.1.1 NS : l•'or instance: ,if om' qocs around the table, the way I visualize it , we have the hon . ~1inister of Health (M .r. Ho us

e) he is not from St . John's , I do not th ink . MR . BARRETT : No . !?!l: f,Q_!.!-INE. : He represents a riding and he lived for many, many years and he calls his base the other side of the Province . lotR . BARRETT : Ms . Verge . . -- DR.,:_ COLLINS : Next to the hon . Minister of Ileal th we have the t-1inister of Fisheries (Mr . Morgan) . r did not think he was a townie. rm . nMlnP.'l"r : l\ rP vnn frnm St- . ,Tohn 'R, Jim? DR . COLL!NS : He is from that great and historic district out in Bonavista Bay . !>~_: _ CO!_:!..;!~~ : we come to the hon . 2 ' • . ') '.' ... Going along a little further

June 4, 198 2 Tape 959 EC - 1 OR . COLLINS : I>tinister of Municipal 1\ffairs (Mrs . Newhook) . She is ccrt<.1inly noL I rom St . John 's. She represents vigourously, frequently and as she should , the great and historic district of Gander . We go a little bit further around to the hon. the Hinister of Public Works and Services (Mr. Young), certainly not from St. John 's. He is from a very old and long settled part of the Province in Conception nay, the district of Harbour Grace, where he gets increasing majorities every time he presents himself to the voters .

We go along a little bit further and we come to the hon. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth, the member for \.rand P<1lls (~lr . Simms) . lie is cerl:ainly not from St . John's . He is an adornment to the Cabinet, I will say that , but he does not have to be a St . John's adornment . i·:e then have the hon . the Minister of 1'ransportutJ.on (Mr . Oawe), again not from St . John's . I think , except for the members from Labrador , he is the member farthest away from St . John 's on the Islnnd.

Then a little bit further round - and I will not belabour this too much - we come to the hon. the Minister of Rural , Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr . Goudie) . MR . DA\•7E : A real townie . DR . COLLINS : Y CS , he i ~ <I rc.:a J lOW II i ~ • . lie is from the part of St . John 's that is called Happy Valley - Goose Bay . So the Cabinet has a very wide representation in rural parts of the Province . ~tr. Morgan; The Mir.istcr of forestry (Mr . Power) is not from St . John's. 2 0 '+ -:

June 4, 1982 Mit . 13/\RRE'I''l' : DR . COLLINS: Tape 959 EC - 2 Forestry, Communications . The Minister of Forestry (Mr. Power) - I did not even mention half of them . 't'here is aln:tost no one there from St. John's , as far as I can understand . 1-'IR • 'BARRETT: more from St . John's . llll . COJ.t,lNS: I think we should have 'l'hc hon . mcml.lcr then mentioned that some of the districts are different in size, and that is quite true . This is why we have a review approximately every five year s to change the representation . 1'11<. nl\HTlF.'l"T': 1-lhilt about the Premier? DR.

COLLINS : Yes , I did not even mention the other - MR . BARRETT: the Cabinet . The most esteemed member of DR . COLLINS : The pzimus inter pares . Is that what it i s called? "Fir st among eguals " . 'l'lw l'r<'mi~·r of th<' Province is not from St . . 1ohn ' s . But getting to the size of the districts or the numbers of electors or voters cl1at members represent, there is a disparity at the present time and I suggest there always will be because 1ve are not a static people . This is a developing, a changing Province and we find that there are some people who will go to other azeas.

Some azeas will increase in size, some areas wi ll decrease in size . Newill always have a need to readjust the elector al boundaries and I believe there is a review coming up in the next year or so . MR . BARRETT: More seats for St . John's . 2 !) 4 I , ,,

June 4, 1982 Tape 959 EC - 3 DR. COLLINS : Now, with regard to the difference in the number of members on each sid e of the House, of course, this is very, very apparent at the present time. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, I think, suggested that it is n~L a good thing to have such a disparity, and one could i.l r•JIH: l_h;tl. 1\ttL I Iii 111\ IIi<~ I lltoil , 1'1 <1l>il'lll, i I i I is a problem, 2 :l . ,- ]J 4 ~~

,June 4, 1982 Tape No. 960 NM - l DR. COLT.TNS: is overriden by the fact that the people of Newfoundland wanted, in the last election,to send a very strong message to the rest of the country, and they wanted to send out the message that we are firmly behind the Peckford Administration in its approach to achieve equity within the Canadian Confederation for this Province, that they wanted to send that message so that no one could misunderstand it and the people in Canada, in other provinces are looking to Newfoundalnd with new eyes of respect. They do not look to Newfoundland now as a suppliant province.

They do not look to the Premier of Newfoundland as somewhat of a quaint, rather amusing little ch~racter who is good for a laugh every once in a while. M [{. 131\ RJU;'l"l' : With the knees out of his pants and crawling to Ottawa. DR. COLLINS: They are looking to the Premier of this Province now as a statesman within the Canadian Confederation, as a weighty member, as a Premier who had a very larqe say in bringing the new constitution that we have in Canada into being.

They look upon him as a person that theywould 1 jL,· lo 11,\Vt' Ltl lilc•i r owtl province's when hiq issues come up- 1\ml members know now that the Premier was recently invited up to Ontario for that very reason. He has been in other provinces such as BC, he has been in Calgary, in Alberta, and so on and so forth. Because he has been invited there as a hiqh profile, weiqhty, very informative type of Premier, very different from,perhaps,premiers we had when we first went into Confederation.

And not only that,but the Province of Newfoundland itself and the representation that this Province sends to the national capital, and to meetings with other provinces now, these representatives are looked upon in a very, very serious liqht. They are looked upon as people who come forward from 2 (1 , •o ·- 4 h

June 4, 1982 Tape No. 960 NM - 2 DR. COLLINS: a province that is rising in Confederation, that is going to take a qn~ater und qreatcr place in Confederation, that is going to,shall we say,be,in some respects,the saviour of the Canadian economy if the blocks that are unnecessarily put its ways can be eradicated Andthat is what this administration and the Premier on this side of the House arc doinq. And th<1t is wh<~t the fH~o!Jll' ol this Province wanted to do. They wanted to make sure that everyone understood that the Newfoundland people are bchinn this approach and they said it in unmistakable terms, and that 2 ;·I. -/ .) 4 I

June 4,1982 Tape No. 961 ah-1 DR. COIJLINS: i:; I llt' ,-t'iJ:;,m ln1· tlw clisp<IJ-it-y nl t.h0 nltmbt~rs ol m0mhers on this side of the House, one side to the other. Hr. Chairnan, I do not know if there are any other questions that will come out under the Legislative Head, but if not I ~ove the adoption of this flead. t1R. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) Shall 201-01 carry? MR. LUSH : Mr. Chairman. - ----- MR.CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member for Terra Nova. MR.LUSH: I was being detracted there by the member for Conception Bay South (Mr. Butt). I do not know whether it was intentional or not. 'II~ • '1'1 I I.

I\ : '1'1 y i 11'1 t.o sl111t ln'r· down. MIL LUSll: Mr. Chairman, there are a counle of remarks that I wanted to make here. I wanted to commend the Leader of the Opposition for the great job that he is doing here today . A statement that he made , of course, that I agree with is reducing the number of members in this Province. fifty-odd members, Mr. Chairman, too ~any members for a Province of this size. The Leader of the Opposition certainly documented his case by comparisons with other pn >v inces and populations , and certainly fifty-two seats are too mil.ny scats for a Province of this size.

I understand the geography, Mr. Chairman, and that makes it a bit dillic1tll b11t still T think thilt we ciln have far less members in the l!ouse, Eilr less districts and be able to do a far better job. So, Mr. Chairman, I think the Leader of the Opposition certainly made a good case when he started making the comparisons with other provinces of Canada,and particularly in the Atlantic provinces, pro vinces that have the same geographic problems as we do. For example, Nova Scotia with a population of 828,000 with fifty-two members. Let us take Quebec with 2 ;J ~ H

June 4,1982 Tape No . 961 ah-2 MR. LUSH: six million people, over six million people with one hundred and twenty-two and we almost have about 55 ?Cr cent of the number of 2 ~~ 4 ~

.fun<· 4, l'lfP 'T'upc No. 9 6 2 MJ - 1 MR . '1'. TollSTl : scats - no a little higher than that - 60 per cent of the seats of Quebec, with a population of n million People. So I think these statistics hear out, Mr. Ch~irmon, thot mayhe we have CTone a little bit top-heavy on the number of seats that we have in this Province 1 giving certainlv, an inordinate balance to St. John's, particularly. How many seats directly in St. John's, ten? ~rR.. S . NF.ARY: Ten and another two or three right arounn the perimeter of St. John's. 1>11<. L\JSIJ: Ten seats directly in St.

John's, which,of course,then, also gives them an imbalance in the qovernment. MR. NF:I\T'<Y: That is right. "'1R. LlJSH: Gives them an imbalance in the qovernment because J suppose the Premier feels obligated to tuk0 a number of people from St. John's in his Cabinet since .1 .;J -<'<lr dC'qn ~t' n r sttpport comes r rom here and that means that rural Newfoundland is left out of the picture. Now, Mr. Chairman, I did not qet what the Leader of the Opposition (Hr. S.

Nearv)was saying because I was doing something else. 1 do not necessarily subscribe to the fact either that we have tn hi1VC' Cabinet Ministers by rreoCTraphic representation, I think there is a little more to it than that. But,still,when we have- there must be a balance - when we have a concentration of members from St. ,John's, People who do not understand rural New foundland, then that is a different matter.

That is a different matter because the ministers that I have heard speaking from time to time do not impress me with their grasp of the Problems n r n1r.1l N<'Wfollnnl ~nn. 'T'hey certainly do not impress me with their knowledge, they do not seem to have a handle on what the real needs of rural Ne\..rfoundlanders are and that is what would 2 !] 5 fi

June 4, 1982 Tape No. 962 MJ - 2 MR. T. LUSH: concern me. So, ~r. Chairmun, I am all for suppcrtinq the Leader of the Opposition (~1r. S. Neary) in reducing the number of seats and in qivinq rural Newfoundlanc representation in any qovernment. I am all for that. So if he becomes Premier he will have my support on that one. Mr. Chairman, it is a 2!] J ·:

June 4, 1982 Tape No. 963 SD - 1 MR. LUSII: place, of course, for a person to speak of the circumstances and working conditions of his own job too, the House of Assembly. I am surprised that backbcnchors are not up now and making their points known to the government, their concerns about their working conditions. I have heard them complain about them but this is the place to do it, to complain to the government and make public, if you will, the kinds of working conditions that we have. The members of the Opposition in particular arc crowded into a little room, Mr.

Chairman, to carry on the job of an Opposition, to meet delegations and renresentatives from the public ·In a little small cubbyhole, that is where we are relegated now, Mr. Chairman. But I do understand that the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Young) is qoi !1CJ to take some action and try to improve that situ~tion for us. I also understand that he is trying Lo illlJJtllV<' out - phone service. llul, Mr. Chairm<~n, I think if the government are concerned about members doing their jobs, I think that they have to provide them with the support staff and facilities. And, Mr.

Chairman, it is very, very important that a member be provided with the proper support staff and with the proper facilities to represent not only his own constituency,because invariably a member is called upon to represent a constituency much larger than the district for which he or she was elected. And, Mr.

Chairman, I do hope that the government consider that and certainly recognize how important the job is and to try and accommodate members so that they will not be restricted, that they will not be stymied, they will not be stifled in carrying out the job for which they were elected in representing the constituency,really, of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. And when one looks at the kind of support staff and the kind of facilities that a member has, I think one can readily come, one can readily see, one can readily ascertain that the 2 !J

J) June 4, 1982 Tape No. 963 SD - 2 MR. LUSH: conditions, Mr. Chairman, are not conducive to giving the kind of represcnt~tion that the people of this Province so rightly expect and so rightly demand. So I would hope that the administration, the government, Her Majesty's government will certainly