Volume XL Monday Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF N"EWFOUNDLAND Fourth Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard) Speaker: Honourable P.]. McNicholas Number 11 28 March 1988

The House met at 3:00p.m . MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas) : Order, plEH'lSE:~! The han. the Leader of the Opposit.ton . MR. WELLS: Before we get down to routine b u s :i n e s s , I j u s t r i. s e b r i e f 1 y t o express a speciaJ. word of welcomE! to a new member sitting in the House today. Needless to say it gi.ves me grc,~at. pl.c,1asurA t.o lAJel.come to this sidE! of the House the nE!W member for Wah,~rford l<enmount (Mr. Gu11age).

That gentlE!man has established a fine record for himself already in the field of pub 1 i. c s e r v "i. c e , and I h a v c;! no doubt that hE! will contributE! greatly to future discussions in this House and to matters that concern this Prov·Lnce as a whole. I would ask all hon . members t.o join in extending a very warm welcome t.o the new member for Waterford - Kenmount. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. SpE!aker, LIJe join ·with thE! l. eader of l: hE! Opposi .tion (Mr.

Wells) in welcoming the new member for Waterford Kenmount. WE:~ LIJould just notE! that we think the hon. membc'!r i.s goi.ng l.:o haVE! a difficult time being the member For Waterfor·d KE!nmount and trying to reprE!Sent both the1 d.ty of St. John 1 s and the city of Mount Pearl all at the same time. L548 March 2 8, 19 8 8 VoJ. XL .· .. ·'"' .. . .. .. AN HON. MEMBER: He is <ilr(;.adystraddl:lng the fence . MR . FENWICK.: Mr. Sp.:1aker . MR. SPEAKER : The han. the member for Menihek. MR , FENWICK: Mr. Speaker, we would also like to j 0 in With thE! L E! ad E! r 0 f thE! l.iber·al. Party and the Lc;~ador o f thE!

ProgressiVE! ConSE!rvatiVE! Party in welcoming the new member for Wa t.E! rf ord ..... Kl'HHnou nt, and to tE! 11 him ned: +:o m'.'i.nd I'. he cornrnen l:.s of the Premier, as he always says thosc,1 nasl'.·.y 1-hj.ngs l'.:o nelAJ rllE!ITtbE!r·s in the HousE•; it is h:i.s way of f o n d l y i. n L r· o d u c ·i n g y o t J 1 .. o t. h (:! pJ.ace. I will say t.hat whc:01r1 I f:i.rst got. "i.n on a by .. - eJ.ect:i.on he told rnt;! I would bE! thE! shortE!St s:Lt.t::i.ng member i.n t:he history of HlE! legislature, and, no doubt, somewhere along the line in debate that will come up as well .

And it. may be that you lAlil l · be thE! short.E!St. sitting ITIE!tnber, as WE• a rE! hoping t.o put. a l'll':!lAJ dr::Hnocri"lt. in your seat. the next time around. SOME HON. MEMBERS: -------Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, pl.ease! I would also like t.o be associated tAJtth the IAJe 1 come to l:. h l'~ ho n. 1T1E1rriber for WatE1rford KE•nmount .. T have known him for many, many years in a diffE!r'ent capacity, we just happen to be tn(->. mb<:~rs of l:hE! Sclme sociaJ. c1ub, and :i.t has always bl':H,Hl a plc,~astH'c;! l.:o spE!ak and discuss matters with him.

Before we move on, l.:i.ke L'.o lAJelcorne l:o No. 11 I wouJ.d aJ.so l:.he galler·:i.l:!S R54.8

today thirty level II students from E. J. Pratt Central High School, tn Brownsdale, and particularly, an exchange student fr·orn Brazil who is wi. t.h l:hem, Flavia Guiliano, with their teacher Mr. R(;:19 Button. Statements by Ministers PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: It is my pleasure l:o inform this hon. HoUSE! that the first tornatOE!S from the Newfoundland Enviropon"i.cs fa c i 1 it y wi 11 bE! a v a i 1 a b 1 E! in thE! local market this Wednesday, March 30.

This initial production of tomatoes occupies less than one-half of one production zone, but. it. wi.ll serve t.o d~Hnonsl: rr.ll : e that the size and quality of pr·oduce fr·om ·t:his fr.lcili.t·.y i.s second to none. This same product.ion zon<->. 'is CUI"rt-?.nt.ly producing 8,000 to 10,000 cucumbers per week for the Newfoundland and Labrador market.

Consumers in our Province have responded enthustasticall.y to Uds homegrown, herbicide and pesticide-free, vi.ne-ripened p r o d u c E~ . ~-J E: h a v e n o d o u b t t h a t the response to the tomato·es 1Aii.1l be no different and that markets outside \:he prov"i.nce wi.J.l respond in kind. When you have a qualitiy product availabJ.e within the country you clearly have an advantage over foreign competition. As ail eight. product-ion units brought on strE!aiTI, cucumbers are and L549 March 28, 1988 Vol.

X I" i o• I ., ;..,, .• • ••• . ~ · .. ·- .. tomt.atoes will. be grotAlrl :.i.n separatE! units, with E!nvironrnentaJ and nutri.enl-.: cond:it-i.ons t.aiJ.orE!d to their specific needs. There IAJ:Lll. J.ikel.y bE:! an ·i.nt:er·r·uption :in thE! suppJ.y of tomatoes to Hw 111 a r k e t. uJ h e n 1:: he c h a n g c,1 o v e r' t. o separate units is made in a coupJ.e of months' t.i.me. I am surE~ that aftE!r tasting thE! product that will become available this week, consumers wiJ.l E!agE!rly awcdt fuJl production and the year-round suppJ.y of frE!Sh produCE! that w:i.11 resul.t. Mr.

Speaker, at.tachE!d to this statement, which I thought might be of ].nterE!St to hon. ffl(~ml:.wrs on both sides of the House, is an articJ.e from The Financial Post of Friday past which talks about a tomato greenhouse in Ont.ario, in Central Canada. They have a '7. 5 acre greenhouse there which is going to prod11ce · 3. 2 tni11:i.on pounds of tomatoes a year. Of cotH'se, IAJe have one that. i.s around 8 acres, which is going to pi"OdUCE! around 10 million pounds of cucumbers and tornatOE!S a YE!C:H'. And, I no l:e, dotAJn at·.

I".·. he bo 1:: t:.om part of thE! ar·tJ.cJ.E! th:i.s, nOLu, J.s 7.5 acr·es, almost:. as li~rge as ours, and it is onJy going to proclucr,1 3. 2 rnill:i.on pounds ·- that 'Costs so far include a 1d2 rnill.:i.on stt~amline, a $6.5 rni.l1ion sewerage systE!Ill and $4 rnilJion :i.n land development,' IAJh:i.ch shotAJs that they are going to produce Jess than half of . what we are producing for a lot more money than we are project:i .ng that this facility wi 11 cost . I wt:.L 1 tab 1 E• l:h:i.s for hon. in(~rnb~;!rs, and I .~m sure they wiJ.l read it with a great deaJ. of interest. MR. WELLS: Mr· . Spe!aker . MR.

SPEAKER : No. ll R549

·: ThE! hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. WELLS : Mr. Speaker, from what I experienced the other night when I toured the grE,enhouse fad.lity. or shortly after it, I Ci.~n commend to anybody the taste of those cucumbers and tomatoes. They are of excellent quality . My fondest wish is that the financial results of the operation could be quite as tasteful for the people of NewfoundJ.and as those tomatoes are li.kely to be. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear. hear! MR. DINN: W h e n i t i. s • · o f c o u r s c1 • y o u tAli. J. 1. resign. MR. SPEAKER : Or·der. plc,~ase! MR . WELLS: Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Sprung, and Miss Sprung for that rnatt.er. :i.ndi.cated to US SOlliE! of thE! probJ.e,ms thE!Y are hav-Lng tAlith the tomatoes. They have overcome some of :i.t, but they have some prob1ems tJJi t.h the plants. they are not growing quite' properly. But I guess you can expect to have difficulties with any neuJ venture that you start up, . so hopefully they wiJ.l overcome that. What I would prefer to see tabled in thE' House. Mr. SpE,aker. is the cash flow stateme,nt.s that tJJould give us thE! information so t h a t:. IAI e c o u l. d p r o p c;, r 1 y j u d g e t h c->. project. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hN~r! MR.

FENWTCK: Mr· . Speak e'r . MR . SPEAKER: L550 Mar· c li 2 8 • 1 9 8 8 Vol XL .. I - • .. ~'• • • • • .. -:. · .. ·.· ... . The hon. the member for Menihek . MR. FENWICK: TtAJO comments. Mr. Speaker, on t:hE! statement by the Premier.

The first is that the waste heat being us E!d to tJJarm thE' gre'e'nhou s E! :L s a ve ry good idea, an d , qu i te frankly, it escapes us why t he Sprung inte r ests did not decide l:o put t he greenhouse compl e x down near Hol yrood wh ere we have a considerable amount of wa ste hea t and tAJhere it: probably tAJOuld have beE'n somewhat more E!conondcal and may have been closer to meeting its economical objectives. Having said that, I wou1d J.ikE' to say thai"·. :r ;:,11rt pl.c,~as~~d t.o ~;f:•e some tomatoes being marketed from the project .

Howev e r , t he to mato produc tio n . is the most qu es tto na bJ.f:! product : i.o n. i n my opin ion. The plan ts that we saw we r·e clea r l y i n di.s r ess , althoug h the tomatoes themselves were reasonable, and would indicate that thed.r yie,ld per squarE~ foot wi.ll be quite a bit. lou1er. Mr. Speaker, although the Sprung interests told us that. .it was because' of the wrong nutr:i.ent mix corn:i.ng through the trays, "it .i.s also quite likely that the increased he at in a closed· structure like that may make it Vf~rlj difficult for the tomato~:'s to grow properly.

We can recalJ. from the information that the Premier tabled J.ast week in the House that ther·e was a consJdf~rable decl i'ne in tomato production in the Sprung operations in the month of June. He al1eged that it: was hydr·ocarbon E!mi.ss'i.ons, yet: it tAJas onl.y nine months later that the hydrocarbon emissions forced the closure of the operation. I would argue much mora rationally that it was the eXCE!SS hE!at in thE! SUrrtHIE!r rnon·ths of May. June and .TrJly that probably damaged the tomato No. 11 ... · ., "~! .\ ...... _

production. Mr. SpeakE!r, on that basis we had betl:er get our crop off in the next month or tl..IJO, because whE!n it comes to June, we w111 probably seE! thE! samE! tapering off of thE! tomato crop. MR. SPEAKER: At this stage, I would like to welcome to tht~ gal.lE!ry, Gr·ade XIT students from Point Leamington Cent:r·al High School and their teachers, Murray Loveless, Bob Norman, and Robert Elliot. SOME HON. MEMBERS: He-ar, hear! ·- Oral Questions MR. W. CARTER: Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: ThE! han. the for Twi.J.J.:ingate. MR. lrJ. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker, rny quesU.on would normally go ~o the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Rideout), but., in his absence, T ~~Jou'ld dJ.rE!Ct ·i.l·. to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Wi.ndsor), and i.t concerns . l:'.he differential that exists between the rebatE! on gasoltne and diesel. fuel oil giVE!n thE! fishermen and farmers of thts country by the f E! d e t~ a 1 go v tH·· n mE! rd:. . I n fa c t , M r . Speaker, there i.s a 3. 5 cent. per litre differential between the rebate given farmers in Canada and that given Newfoundland ftshermen.

That d:i.ffer·ent:i. i~l has existed now since the programme was first initiated back on December 1, 1984. Mr. Speaker, in March 11, .1987, I L551 March 28, 1988 VoJ. XL.. .. .;,. . . ~ . II • ': • e I ~ .. ' I e I ' • raised thE! sarnE! qUE!Stion wJt.h the then M·i.nister· of Intc.;!rgovt=>.rnrnent.aJ. Affairs. At. that tirnE! thE! m~i.n'isi·_c.;!r aSSIJrc,~d rne t:hat thee' I.1.J0rd from Mr·. Crosbie, Uw rE!gionaJ rn"i.n].si·.c-?.r, tnd"i.cr-.:tl:-.~~d thi3.t-. t:ht~ rebate would apply equaJ.J.y to fishermen and to farmers. Now, Mr. Speaker, we aJ.l know that that is no~ so .

Tn fact, i.n 1-:.hE! budqet of April 1 it l..IJ[~s- indi cat.ed that: farmer·s, as of Apri.l J, uJou1d receive 8.5 cents per litre rebate as opposed to 5 cc-?.nts per· litre rebate for fishermen. My question to the mi.nis ·tE!r, Mr. Speaker, is has he rnadE! representation to his federal counterpart or the appropriate federal minister with a view to havtng that inequity correcl:'.ed? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Mintster of Finance . MR. WINDSOR: Mr. SpE:H5lker, first of a11, obviously the hon. gentJ.ernan must know that the iss1Je h<-:~ :is spt':!aki.ng about is a fE!deraJ. issUE!, and within federal jurisdiction.

NeverthE!less, of courSE!, :i.t do~~s have significant impact on fisher·mE!n in this ProvinCE!, so 1 am not trying to set it aside. · I kn01.o~J th<~t rny coll.c,H'\que has made certain representations to lhe federal. government on l:'.he issue. I do not have the detaiJed i.nforrnation t:o make a n::!spbnsr:>. at the moment, so I ud.ll takE! noi':.:LCE! of that point. But I do assur·e him that is an issue we arE! concerned about and ~~J:i.J.l bE! J.ooking into. MR. W. CARTER: A Silpplernentary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the No. 11 R ~i ~)1

member for Twillingate. MR . W. CARTER: ~-Speaker-:- I would again the1n ask a question. The answer I received from U1E1 minister today, Mr. Speaker, '.is almost. the exact samE! answer I got back from his colleague about a year ago. I am asking the minister now, Mr. Speaker, would he today have this matter investigated and would he then make representation to the appropriate minister in Ottawa, with a view to having that discrimination against Newfoundland fishermen ended? Mr.

Speaker, while I am on my feet I IJ.JOuld li. ke to table, Sir, a copy of the telegram that was sent today f r· om Ud s s i d c~ of t h c,~ H o u s e to thE! Minist:E!r of Fisheries (Mr. Sidden) as king, firs L of all, thclt tbe government explain why thE! difference, a.nd lhen to tak<.:l the necessary steps to correct it. SOME HON. MEMB~RS : HE!ar, hE!ar! MR. WINDSOR: Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : ThE! hon. the Minister of Finance . MR. WINDSOR: Mr.

Speaker, once again I assure the han. gentleman we will do whatever we can to correct any real difficulties there, and I IJ.Jill get for lrim the informat:ion as to what action has bE!en taken. I arn sur·e act:ion indeed has bc;!en taken by this side of thE! House long befor·e no1JJ. MR. BAKER : Mr· . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. lhe m<,~rnber for Gander· . L!:>52 Mar· c h 2 8 , 1 9 8 8 UoJ. XL . .. ~ \ . . .. ~ . MR. BAKEJ~ : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . OnCE! again, to tho hon. t.he Minister of Finance. Some members of the St.

John's Boar·d of T1nade• recently expr~~ssed an op:in :i on they haVE! bE!en E!XprE!SSing for some time, as have we on this side of the House, that thE! 12 por cent reta :n sa1es tax is .in fi"lct hurting trade in thE! Province. It seems as i.f their opi.ni.on and our opinion is that we are running into the law of diminishing returns on thE! 12 per CE!nt reta:11 sales tax.

I IAJould ask thE! mtnistE!r if hE! a s a l'lf:!I~J rn:i.nist(;!r has i. n:i.t.:i.atc;d any examination into thE! r~:d:ai] salE!S tax sil:: uat: t on "i.n this Pr·ov:i.nce with a view to trying to determine .if :in fact a r'(,1 duct: :Lon tn the 12 per cent R.S . T. would result in rnor·e 'l:r·adt~ and ped1aps r'f:!sult. in no Joss to the provincial economy? MR. WINDSOR: Mr. speaker. r-'1_1~ .. .:.. .... ? P E A K E.B. : ThE! hon. thE! MinistE!r of FtnancE! . f'IJB. WINDSQB,: Yes, Mr. Speaker, WE! · CE!r' tainly have.

We have t'!xamined every t:ax that we have in this Province and :ln other provinces to cornpar·e l:he overaJ.l tax b~rden in Newfoundland compared with other parts of Canada. The hon. gentleman will have to wait until tomorrow when I will enlighten him to a large degree in that area. As t t rela'i :(;s to 'I: he 12 per• CE!nt: salE!S tax, our· stud:iE!S do indeE!d sho1~1 t:hat: obv:io1~sl.y any t:l.tn<,1 you reduce any tax and leave more dispGsable income in the pockets of pE!OplE!, thE!n UlE!re w:LJJ indE!E!d by rnotn~~ money spE:Hli::, t:her ·p tJ.ri.Jl be No. 11 ..

more trade. But therH :.i.s obviously a net deficit to the Trc,~asury of the Proutnce fr·om reducing taxes. We will not regain anything l:"i.ke HH,1 amount of money that we would lose by reduc 'i. ng taXC.;!S. So, obviously, you would haVE! to raise it - by anothE:~r method. MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : A suppl.l':'!m(HJtar·y, t:he hon. member for Gander. MR. BAKER : The minister will know that the HoiJSe oF Common's CommithH,~ J.n Ott.a1.ua has re!commended that thE:H'e be federal taxes put on rnany i terns, including food in this country, and they are rather adamant in this particular posture.

If what the minister has said is correct and if he believes it, then I assume that the minister has protested very vigorously against this extra tax being put on food. Would the minister pll'H~SE! tell the,~ HoiJSe what representations he has made to makE! s ur·E:~ that the peop l.E! up thE!re.;! do not start put.ting tax on food? We do not rHH,~d it: i.n l::h-J.s ProvinCE!. SOME HON. MFMRFRS: Hc,~Rr, he"!ar! MR. WINDSOR: MR . SPEAKER : The han. the Minister of Finance . MR. WINDSOR: Mr.

Speake!r, obviously I cannot disagree with the han. gentleman that a tax on food would certainly be contrary to thE! policy of this government in that those items L553 March 2 8, 19 B 8 Vol XL .. .•. · .. - . . . .. which are taxab l e are non-essential items. It is a l most a luxury tax in Uri.s Prov :i, nu~. in that we do not have tax on food or heat:ing fiH.;!l or thtngs of t·.hat nature, or accommodation. So obviously a tax on food IAtould be v"i.EliAIE!d very negal:.:i.VE!ly, and lAtas viewed very ne!gatiVE!ly, and WE! "i.ndeed made uery strong representations to the Government of Canr~da.

And I thJ.nk he lAri ']J. find that no decision has been made-:~ to put t.axc,~s on food. In fact, just t.hE• oppositE• I th:ink · wi l.l. be t:.r11e. MR. LONG : Mr·. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: ThE! · hon. mE!mber for St.. John's East . MR. LONG : Mr. Speaker, I have a question today for the;! Minis t.:l?.r of SocL:'J.l Services (Mr. Tobin), and it conGerns the ongo-Lng announc(Hnr?.nts. being made by his Depar·tmE!nt, and MHAs on t:he government stele for theitn arE!aS, of cornrnun:Lty development projects. I wo ul. d l i I< e;!

L: o r· r::~ f l'! r· to correspondence that I had with the Minis~er l ess than a mont:h ago concerning one of these projects tha l: wr.1 s l.o ca ted "in 1ny otAm district,· Jn whtch 1 cHkE•d a que;!si·.·ion about: l:he sc,~lect:.:ion oF participants bedng rE:sE:rvE:d foi" men only. I received assurance from the Minister that that was nt1t a policy of the depart.mr::~nt, i.t was a specific case in point where no fc-:1mal.e,~ appl::Lcants had comE! forward. I would likE! to ask thE!

Minister today is t:hat still t:he . policy of the departlllE!nt., that: all community development projects operate on an opE!n basis and arE! No. 11

. . . ~ .. .... · , .. , • nondiscriminatory? MR. SPEAKER: T h e h o n . t: h c.;! M "i. n :i. s i· c~ r· o f So c oi. a l. Services. MR. TOBIN: Yes, Mr. Speaker . MR. LONG: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: SupplE!fnentary, the hon . the member for St. John 1 s East. MR . LONG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wanted the confir·mat.ion of that po1:lcy bE!CaUSE! I was somE!What takE!rl aback a couple,~ of days r.1go, towards the end of last week, to recej ,ve a notiCE! from NIS of an announcement by the MHA for Harbour Gr·ace (Mr·. Young). MR. SPEAKER: Order, pleaSE!!

Would the hon. m~'!mbc'!r please pose his question? MR. LONG : My question, Mr. SpE!aker concerns the recent announcement of a community development project in Harbour Grace in which seventeen persons will be employed, all of 1~1hom tAdll be male heads of family. Could the Minister €~xplain the announcement that has been made in which seventeen p e r s o n s I Ali ll. b c,~ em p 1 o y c.;! d , a l. 1 o f whom ar·e ITIE!n, on a community development project in Harbour Grace? MR. SPEAKER : The hon . the Minister of Social S(?.rv ·i ces . MR . TOBIN : L 554 March 28, 1988 Vol XL .· .. .· J •• Mr .

Speak e r, I a m not su re to w~d c h pr o j ect ·t he t·w n . me mbe r ref e rs b ec au se t he r e a r e va r io u s pr· oj e c ts. Pr·ob abl y t hat one co t ~ .d hav e b ee n ma d e o n the sa me day that I~JE! annOIJI'lC('!d that. t:h~H'C'! IAJOUJ.d be one in Stephenville to employ I believe fifteen female heads of farrlilte!S. MR. LONG : Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: A ftnal supplementary . MR. LONG: Could the Minister give some indtcation of what is rn e ant, thE!n, if there is a dist i nction being made in his Department between male'! rH'!ads of f a mi l. t es and fc'•malP heads of families?

Is that just to be-:! appl.:ic,~d t.o a givt,!n projc~ ct, that there will be an exclu s ive ar·range1nent 'J.n IAlh i.ch only rnal.E! heads of family arE! taken on? Is that what is happening here in Harbour Grace? MR. SPEAKER : ThE! hon. the Minister of Socia} s~~rv:i.ces' MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speake->.r, as I have said, I am not familiar with the project that the hon. member· refers t.o. It is conceivable that they were the o n 1 y p e o p 1 e IAJ h o we r €~ r e c Ed v :i n g s o c t a 1 a s s i s t a n c e o r· o n t h o c a s e load in that particular area at that particu1ar U.rne tAJould bE! the stt.uatton.

Aga:in, I am not stn~e what the details of the project IJ.Joul.d be, but our· Department. iHld our government., Mr. SpeakE!r, ts be i ng very fa i r and do not. d"i.scrtminate against any sex. MR . GU LLAGE: Mr : SpeakE!r . · No. 11 R554

. ' p ~ ·!.. • ... .. MR. SPEAKER : The han. the member for Waterford-Kenmount . SOME HON .. MEMBEI~ .. § : Hear, hetar! MR. GULLAGE: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Justice (Ms Verge). Th<-?. m"i.rl"Lsi".er i.s no doubt ai)Jaret that the Atlantic Pilotage A1~l:hori.i".y, IAJhi. ch IAJas g-i.v<~n the mandate to operate pilot boats t h r' o u g h o u +.: A 1:: l. a n t "i. c C a n ad a , h a s decided to put up on tender thet p"i.lot bodl~ opP.r'Rt·ion i.n Sl:. John's Harbour.

Given the importance of that operation, and tts tle in 1o~.dth the Fir·e Departmetnt, is thet m·i.ni.sl- er sat:i.sf ·i.l:td that lAJh~:trl t~ds tender process is complette and thet four h"i.ghly trained men are di.splaced, that the samet good fire protection prov:i.ded by the tug in co-operation with the Fire De part me n t · IAJi 11 be pro v i d I';:H~ b y t he company that will subsequently take over the authority? MR. SPEAKER : ThEt han. the Ministetr of Justice . MS VERGE: Mr. Sp~~aker, Uds i.s somet-.lri .ng that is being looked into by my dHpartment.:, part of IA.IIri.ch :i.s thE:1 St..

John 1 s Fire Departmetnt. We w:i.ll. do everyth "i.ng possi .bl.e t.o persuade HlEt fetderal government and the Atlantic Pilotage Aut.hori ty to provide the firet pr'o!:ect:.:ion l:'.hnt··. i.s needE!d for Sl:. John's Harbour. MR. GULL.AGE: A suppJ.ement.:ary, Mr·. Sp~~ak<-?.r. MR. SPEAKER: A suppletmEtntary, the hon. the m<,1mber for Waterford ·- KenmotJnt . MR. GULLAGE: LS55 March 28, 1988 VoJ. XL ... . .. ·. .· ..

Is thlH'e any IJJay thet mJnistl'!r can intervene at. t:his stagEt and causE• the tendering process to be discontinued, and ensure that th(~Se mc~n, highJ.y t:rai.ned :in thr::tir jobs, I might add, are continued in t:hel.r jobs, wh:ich is not goi.ng to be the case if the tendering process i.s co1~ti.n1~ed? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Justice . MS VERGE: Mr. Spe;;tk<;tr, th<'t Al.:l.anl::"i.c P·ilot:c:tgEt Authority, an agency of the f ~~ d I';:H' a J. go u c->. r n mEt n t. , ·i. s :i n c o n t.: r· o l of the situation.

All that any of us ·Ln lhis Assembly can do is make representation to that authority. MR. GULl..AGE: A final SIJpplt:Hnentary. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon . the member for Waterford Kenrnount. MR. GULLAGE: I IAJO U J. d l. i. k e t 0 aS k t h ('! 1ni. 11 'i. S t Et r, Mr. Speaker, whether or not the Department of Justice had :input into thi.s deci.sion to go to tender IAJi. t h t: ht1 p:i lo tag e o pEt r·a t. :i. on pd. or to the tendering process st.art::ing.

G·iv<;!n f·.·.hc~ fact l::hat. l::hr:t Fire Department co-ordinates its a c t. i. v ·i. t: y IAri. t h l h e l u g , a n d i. n fa c t. the safety of VBSSEt}S in thE! h arb o 1.1 r· a n d p r· o 1: 1::1 c 1:: i on for buiJ.dJngs aJ.ong thEt harbour front ver·y rnt~ch d;:~pc;:nd on l::he co-ord~i nation of thEt tug boat and the Fire Deparl::rnent:, was the Department of Justice consuJ.ted in the process prior to the tenderJng being put in place? MR. SPEAKER : The han. the M:i.ni.ster of Justice . MS VERGE: No. 11 R5S5

.. ~ j .• • • ...,, • • • . ~ ·-· .. . . .: ' .. Mr. Speaker, if there was any c o n s u l t. a t -i. o n -i. l: <fi d n o t i. n v o l v e 1m~ or· the senior pE!OplE! of the d<.;!partment. · I lAJoul.d l"i.k<'! l::o Y'(,~mi.ncl all hon. mE!rnbers that it has bE!E!n the position of this administration that fire protection for the port of St.

John 1 s is a federal responsibility consistent with federal constitutional responsibility for ports and harbours in Canada. 0V(-:!r the years we have tried to impress upon the federal government this fact and urge them to exercise that responsibility for making provision for fire fighting capabil:i ty in the harbo1~r.

What was done by the Atlantic Pilotage Au t hority on their new pj.lot boat l.ast yea r is a step i.n the right direction , but it is, by no means, all that t his provi .nc i al. administration has maintained and conti.nUE!S 1-.o rnr:l."i.ntcdn is neE!ded for totally adequate fire protection in St . John 1 s Harbour. MR. LUSH : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for· Bonavtsta North. SOME HON. MEMBERS: H<,~ar, hear·! MR. LUSH: I thank hon. members, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, thE! Minister Sp~>.aker, the of food banks is surely a syrnpathE!tic my question is for of Finance.

Mr. recent establishment within this Province car .. Lng, S(-?.ns:it.ive and response to the economJ.c malr.d.s~=! 1..11h i.ch is presently gripping this Province . B e a r· i. n g J. n m ·i n d t.: h f:~ r· <-:! 1. a 1-'. ·i v e l y L556 March 28, 1988 Vol. XL ; : .. · . . .... sparse population of this P r· o v :i. n c e , a n d i. n v :i H l.o~J of l: he tremendous need for assistance wh i ch the personnel in the food banks havE! clE!arly identi.f:iE!d, I wonder lf the minister can tell this HOUSE!

WhE!thE!r' th:J S is an indication that the Province 1 s network of social programmes and fiscal pol:i.c-i.<;q; ar'<.;! i.nadequate i:;tnd indE!ed failing to mE!et. thE! basic needs of t.h('! peoplE! of t.his ProvincE!? .MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance . MR. WINDSOR: Would l:. he hon. rnt'~tnber just g :i.v~;! me a repeat of that? I did not real..i.ze the qu<,~stJon was for· tnE! . MR. SPEAKER: ThE! han . the mE!rrJbE!r fo1~ Bonavist:.a North . MR. LUSH : Mr. Speaker, food banks are not f 1 J n n y . () n d 1 n y q 1 1 C'! s t ·i. o n 1.·. o t: h e rninistE!r, Mr.

Speai<E!r, :i.s th:.i s: Whether or not lhe establlshment. of food banks in t.ll:is ProvincE•, the need for food banks is an indication c,f the;! failun! of thE! Provtnce 1 s network of social progra~nes and fiscal policies which are not meeting the basic needs of the pE!OplE! of this Provine(,~? MR. WINDSOR: Mr . Speaker. .~~....:.....- S P f. A KJ.B. : ThE! han. the Minist:E!r of FinancE! . MR. WINDSOR: Thank you, Mr . Spt=!alu~r . l <:lpol.ogJz<.;! 1-.o the hon . No. 11 RS~6

I r • • • o • ~ ' o ~ • • o ., • • & • -· -~ .. : . &.· ... . . gentleman. It :is not. that. I IAias not listening, I just did not realize he was addressing it. to me. The question is a very interesting one. I think, first of all, he makes certain assumptions there, that is, first of all, that our Fiscal policies are not working and, SE!Condly, that our social policies are not up to the standards in the rest of Canada. I am prepar(.;!d to say, Mr.

Speaker, that our social programrnE!S can bE! put 1~p against any social, programmes anywhere in Canada; in fa c t , t h e y I Ali. ll s u r p r:u; s rn o s l·. of them. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hE!ar! MR. WINDSOR·: As far· as thE! fiscal policiE!S go, Mr. Speaker, I am equaJ.l.y confident that they are working quite wel.J., and hopefully IAH.;! IAri.ll see that tomorrow. That is not to say that IAJe do not have problems still in this Province, that we are not in a di.fficuli: f:i.nanci.al position, that thE!re are not other thi.ngs that need to be done. But.

I would submit to the hon. gentleman that both our fiscal policies and our social programmes are working quite well. MR. LUSH : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A suppl.E:rr.entary I t h~:: hon . th0 member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: T IAJO nd (H', minister provincial s t.udy of (~conomJc encountered Province, Mr. Sp(,~akE!r, indi.catE! COI.IJ.d the IJJhE!thE!r gov(~rnrnE!nl r'(,~search and the financial and probl.orns be"i.ng by the poor of this and E!Sp(.;!Cial.ly th(,~ l..5S7 Mar·ch 28, 1988 Vol XL •' .. .. : .. ·. . .· ..

IAJork·Lng poor, show any cor•r(.;!lat:i.on I~Ji t. h the g r· ave n E! s s and s r:! r :i. o usn E! s s of the depri.vatJon being E!XperiE!nCE!d by thE! WOlnking pOOl" of this Province as identifJed by, and publicly announced by the Province•s food bank personnel? PREMIER PECKFORD: It is not like you quest:J.ons. You ar·~~ that, Tommy. MR. SPEAKER : to rE!ad bei:.tc~r your· t.hi:in The hon. the Minister of FJ.nance . MR. WINDSOR: There is obviously a new writer on Lhr,~ ol.:hor· s-i.df~. PREMIER PECKFORD: There -i.s a report card on the go. MR. WINDSOR: That is a D- . Mr.

Speaker, I th"i.nk, l".:h~~ ans1~1er· to this question is VE!I~y simiJ.a1n to the previous one: The assumptions that thE! hon. gentJ.ernan is makJng are not accurat.e. That J.s not to say that we do not have dJfficultios in this Province, but I think it. is irresponsible at minimum For the hon. gentleman to ma.i<E• thE! ldnds of stah,~ment.s he jiJst made, that there is such proverty and deprivation in this Province. I wouJ.d suggest to you it is not t:her't.;!. That "i.s not to ~;ay t.hal: people in this Province at the loiAJ(·H' (,;nd of the,; i.ncoinE• scaJ(:;s iH'e not having difficuJU.E!S.

I would S l,lg 9 ~~ S t 1": () y 0 U t:. h 61 1".: 0 IH' S 0 c:i a J. pro~ramrnes are qui.te adequate t:.o fll(;!e t. th(,~ bas .. i.c . ne(,~ds i:~nd t.hat. indE!ed rny col1E!agUE!, the Minist.E!r' of Social Services, is work i ng VE!ry hard and wn.J. be intr•oducing rH'!IAJ pr·ograrni'ri(->.S ovl:~r t:hl'! corn:ing YE!ars to d!i:~aJ. with t.heSE! probJ.E!HIS even more so. No. 11

. .. ,,.··. • • • • I ~ o. • • MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKF.R: ·A fi. nal s upplE!ITIB n tar y . MR. LUSH : I remind the hon . minister that food banks :is a new phenomenon i.n this Province and it is a travesty that our· economy, and ·J.nadequat.~~ social programmes, and fiscal pol. i.c-i.(.;,s, Mr . Sp,.;,aker, requ-Lre the establishment of same.

My ques t:ion to t.he minister· is t.h:.i.s: I ask the minister, therefore, in view of the seriousness and the graveness of this situtation, IAJould thl~ minister· indicate t:o the House today what measures, what immediate steps government are planning over the nE!Xt few months to ensure that the working poor people of this Province arr:~ able to be fed adequately and properly, are able to keep body and soul together? MR. SPEAKER : ThE! han. the Minister of FinanCE!. MR . WINDSOR: Mr·. Speaker, it is obvious lAJhat is happen'i.ng.

The,~ hon. <:j('!ni::J.emHn opposite are absolutely scared to d(:'al :. h of IAJhal:: Tarn go"i.ng to l'ldV(,~ in my budget speech tomorrow. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hE!ar! MR. WINDSOR: The only way I can answer his question, Mr. Speaker, is to say he is going to have to try to control himself for ttAJenty--four hours, and if he comes back tomorrow he will hear all . SOME HON . MEMBERS: HE!ar, hE!ar! MR. GILBERT : L558 MiH'Ch 28, 1988 Vol XI . ... Mr· . SpNll<er. MR . SPEAKER: ThE~ hon. Lh(:' HJ(;!rnbE!r for· Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. MR . GILBERT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My qUE!Stion was go:i.ng to bE! for the Minister of Labour (Mr. Blanchard), but in view of the fa c t t. hat he :i. s not hE! r· e .r w:i. 1.1 ask the Premier . Fishermen in NetJ.Jfoundland iH'\~ V€~ry concern~: ·d about the length of time ~t i s taking for the Labour Relations Board to reach a settlemlent on the current fishermen's union dispute. Will the PrE!rni E!r E•n s ur e that further actton tAJi.JJ be taken to speed up the settlement of this very · serious dispute by seeing that an early vote is taken to settle the problem s "i.n the fishery. MR. PATTERSON : That is a Bonnell. ques ti on . MR .

BAIRD: Sl·:op reading yotlr' qt.IE!St:.i. on . MR. G1 LBERT: It seems to mo to be a g o od qu e ~i t :i. on . MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Premi.~~r . PREMIER PECKFO~~: Mr. Speaker, i t. .i s too bad !:. hE! han. mE!!TlbE!r had to Y' E!ad :i. t. . It. is a ver·y ger·rm~ne subj'E!Ct. that :is on the minds of a Jo t of Newfoundlanders and L.abradori~11ns today . As a matter of fact, th E! h o n . g e n t.l E! rna n i s a f o IAI d a y s late . I had a meeU .ng on F1~i day morning, after Qu e st i on Por i od hE!re in t.he House, in my off'icE! on the very matter that t he hon. ITIE!TflbE!r just raiSE!d, w-:i.th thE!

No. J 1

I ~ a • ' .~ .. ... MinistE!r of Fished.E!S and wjth the MJ.n.i.ster· of Labour bc->.ca1Jse of rny concerns on the same matter. As the hon. member is aware, we have taken significant iniU.atives to try to speed up t.:he prOC\::lSS and put in place a permanent, if you will, Labour Relations Board to deal with this, and hired extra people and so on. There are hundreds of thousands of dollars being spent to try to expedite the process.

Now, it is a sort of a sc-?.tni.-jud:i.cal. ki.nd ·of Uring, and therefore government has to be extremc->.l.y car·ef1.1l. so that 1.~1e <H'0. not SE!en to be taking one sidE! of the Lssue over Another, because t:hen that. can bE! appealed to the cour ·l·.s, IAJh"i.ch, i.n E!ffco~ct, co11ld even lengthen it further. So thE:~rCo1 are several problE!mS that cH'C"! now corn:i.ng to the for·e on t:he matter, and the kind of delay that the hon. member has just mentioned. The first one deals lAd. t h t h e q u e s t i o n of a v o t: e f o r the fisherpersons themselves.

I thinl< on Friday, if I am not mistaken, one of the people IAJorking for the boar·d did table a document whj ch indicated that the board would be holding a vote in April. I am not sure of the date. There ·i.s a fc"!eli.ng by a l.o ·t of the fishermen that the vote should be held very, very soon because thE! lobstE!r season, on thE! E a s t C o a s t e s p e ci. a 11. y , iAri 1.1 b E! starting in the middle part of Apr'i .l and thE!n ·i.t will be difficult for · a lot of the fishermen to be availAble to voi':.e. There is work be!ing donE! wi.th the Electoral Office to co-ordinatE! thE! names and so on .

So T th i.nk sorrtE! triOV(:1lrtent: l.•Jds rnad1'! on Fr·i.day and I think morE! tJ.Jas to be:~ rnadA, today or· tornorro1~1, Lo l".r'y L51)9 March 2 8, 19 8 8 VoJ. XL -. ~. . to gE!t. thE! vote bE!forE! thE! rwi ddlE! of Apr•i.l. There are othE!r problems aJso d e a 1 "l n g IAri t: h f i. s h p 1 a n t: s , r e 1 a t "i. n g to certification and decert.ifi.cation processE!S that:: are ongoing which we are trying to deal. with too.

The Minister of Labour and the Minister of Fisheri.es are dealing with them now on a sort of a rush basJs, and IJ.Jherever· we can move t:I'H'! sysh~m quicker we will, as long as we are not.:, at the-?. SdlrtC:~ time, tak:ing sidE!S on the iSSUE!, .. SO that obvto1.1sJ.y IJ.Je do not gc;d: :int:o a court chaJ.lengE!. But on the vote itseJ.f, we are 1110 lJ :i. n g r' c,~ d 1 fa s 1- to q C'> l:. "i. 1:: done before thE! middle of Apl"j1, IAJhJch i.s sor·t of t:h(~ Cll·l~ --o - Ff t: i.1nP befor'l':! a lot of people in the fishing ·i.ndiJS t:r·y w-Ll1 bP gon(;! fr·orn b~=!::i.ng able to vote.

That is the f .i s h e r p e r· s o n s UlC,~ m s c,~ 1 v C'! s , a n d t h e n you haVE! thE! othE!r proble!fns w:i.th the fish plants and f i sh plant workers on CE!rt.i fica t ion and decertification under the act., which we are now working on. MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: ThE! hon. the m(:'mber· for the St:rcd. t. of BE:~l.l.e Isle. MR .. DECKER: My question is for the Minister of EdlJcat: .. i.on (Mr'. H(-;~ar'n), L:hc j un-.i.or part of that particular portfolio.

ThE! minister is awarE! that there arr-?. hr,lndicr.lppr,~d ch .. i.ldrE'!I'l "i.n t:his Province who are only attending school on a par·t -t 'i.rn(~ bas·i .s . ·rhe minister aJ.so knows that his go v c·H' n 1 rt e n t: ' s p o 1 :i. c y 'i. s c a u s i n g this unfit treatment of the h a n d i. c d p p P d . I a s k 1: h C'! rn :i. n ·i. s t ·E:! r· No. 11 R559 ·.

.. · . .. when IAiill he chiH19E! policy so that children IAJ:i.ll hr•1ve t.:hC'! to attend school on b·~sts? MR. SPFAKER: "" . ...... go v l'~ r nrnE! n t handicappE!d opport.un-Lty a full-time ThE:1 hon. the Ministe!r of Education. ~R. HEARN: Mr. Speak En', thE! concer·n ment.ionc~d by the hon. member. is a rE!latively leg i t:i.rnate one. Wha 1·. one has l·.o remember :is tha ·l:, a very fE!IAJ years t.~go, the SE!VCH'ly handicapped childr·en in our prov:lnCE! did not att.e:~nd any schools.

Many of thc,1m 1.1.1ere! at homE!, eventually put into institutions, and just a vc~ry f<.~w short years ago into thE! system. Not only haVE! they come :into the educational s y s tenn now, they havE! also in many areas been fully integrated into the present system. The allocation of teachers for the handicapped depends upon the degree of handicap, certainly; some have just minor handicaps and f'it ·into the regular class with the regular teachers and so on. Severc~ly liiEHJtally hand i cappc,1c:1 ch :ildren rE!quir·e a much loiAJer r· ;:., t i. o .

A n d 1m,1 h a v E! p r· o v ·i d c'! d , within our means and the time fr!!Hne d1.1ri.ng whi.ch all thi.s has developE!d, lAJhat has turned to be thH bf!St r·atio Ln Canr.1da in relation t.o looking out afi:E!r the handicapped . In Fact, Newfoundland stands second to nobody when it comes to looking after the handicapped people in the school system of the Province.

Just recently we have noticed that i n r u r a 1 a r e• a s i n par U. c u 1 a r , IJJher·e you have sma11er populattons and consequentJy smaller number of handtcappE!ds, IAJhere:1 you rni.ght. hclVH one or two at a school level,, IJJh(C~re the rat:io might:. be one L560 March 28, 1988 VoJ.

XL .... tNH:hc'!r for four students, and so on, and in J.argE! centers that was q wL l: e p r a c t L c r.1l. , I~H,~ havE! n OIJJ g :i. ~~ !.':~ n the boards rnore flexibility 1~.1hereby l.o~JA allocr:'ll':r,1 tE:'achc'!r's upon the total numbE!r of stude!nts not 14Ji.th.i.n 1-:hc.=! school. or IAJ"i.thtn a small area but within thE! board, and that gives the board a lot more! flexibility to manipulatE! thl'! t c.~ ;:~ c h r.~ r s d n d p r· o v ·i, cl c'! t.•J h a t. h a s turned out to be more than adt~quai:<'! COlHH'c1ge :in most are:~as. MR . DECKER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR.

SPEAKER: The hcHJ~"UH,~ merni:H~r for the,~ Strait of Belle Isle. MR. DECKER: Mr. Spec.'l.ker, IAie knoiJJ t.he problorn. The quE! s t ion was when wi 11 it b (:' solved. Obviously, the minister does not intend to soJ.ve it. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: School boards in St. John 1 s receiVE! $6,000 per studE!nt pE!In ye:1dr pcH' nuJlt. ·i ··- hanrl:icapped sl:.tJdont. in tl'lE!ir systE!rn. This g1nant is not <:1ua"i.lablE! 1-'.o r·ur·al schools. I ask thE! min:istE!r': When lAiill l':llE! mJrri.sh'!ln rnakc'• l·:lri s ~~xtr·r.~ ~t6, 000 per handicapped student available to r·urr.1l school bor.1r·ds?

And l do not want the minister to skate d r· o u n d . I h ;:,w c,1 d s I< E! d h i. m r.1 s :i. rn p 1 e question: When will he make it avR U.ablc,'? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Education. MR. HEARN: Mr. Speaker, nurnb<.~r one, the hon. gE!ntleman satd that thE!Y IAJE!Ine aware of the problem. rhe problem is one that was always with us 1~1he:~n t.hey t~J<'!rc,1 in pot~H~r. It ::i.s one that has gradually been c han 9 e d and :1 rn p r· o v ~~ . d , and in Fa c t No. 11 RS60

- ~ . t ··i.mf.H'OV(:1cl rr.lt.h~H' qt.l 'i. ckl.y s i . nc~:! l':lri.s administration came into power. In relation to the funding that is pr'ov:i.ded to I·:I'H?. handi.cappl':ld "i.n St .. John's, the han. TTIIi:1TTiber rrd ght do well. to do a b:i.t of r-esearch and see how thE! history of this develop('.~d. When the s tudent.s, -or young people, moved from the homes to institut.ions, such as Exon House, it cost government a tremendous amount of money to care for them. Then, when an exper-iment took place to move them from the i n s tit u t ion i n to tv.1o developmental centres set tJp "ln St..

John's, funded by the Depar't.:mc;!nt, once aga:in 'i.t: IAJas a costly effort and we realized that -l::he Dc'!par'trrtE!nl". of Fclucat.'i.on should not be involvE!d in running thE!. schools, school. boiH'ds do a 1111.1Ch better job. Co n s e q 1.1 c-'! n t l y , a n a r r' a 1'1 g E:HrH'! n t tAli\'\ s made with the school boards in St. John's, both of thE~m, to take'! ovli:1r the development centres on what starh-'!d out l:o be an exper- ·i.rrH-'!nt:.al. basis.

And they a~reed to do, provided that the amount of funding that was available, or be:ing spent by the Depar-tment, would go to them, and that was fatr ball. These IAJE!r'e the onl.y severely handicapped students who were in the school setting at that tirne, and that is why it. is not a spedal grant for any spec:i.aJ. amount, but turned out to be an average of that amount of money per student in tnE! institution or in the development centre. This has bE!en in place no1.11 for a f c;!IAJ y e:~ a r s .

S ::i. n c (,1 t. hat: 1·: ·i 1m,~ rna n y students 1.11ho WE!re in Exon HouSE!, or s"i.rntlar st.tJdf'!n·l-.s, havc,1 not~J found thE!fnSE!lVE!S in thE! schools in d - i.ffr::!I~E!nl-. par-t:s of the'! Pr-ovoi.ncr,1, t.hus. prE!Senting us v.rith a problE!rn tAJhf~rc-:'!by LhH me:1t:hocl of hancll.:i.ng L561 March 28, 1988 VoJ. XL ·. .. -·· these people, when you translate it into dollars, unlE!SS you J.ook at t:he overall p:i.ct:ur'(-:'!, ·it looks as if therE! is a d:i.scrE!pancy. We h a v ~~ ad m :i. t: tc;! d 1-:. h a t a n d -:i. t. IAJ"i. 11 b e addrE!SSC:1d. MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker.

MR_..:_ __ SPEAKER: A final supplementary . MR. DECKER : Aga-Ln, thE! Minister gi.ves history. WE! know the problE!TTI. HotJ.J can you blamE:~ thE! L:i.b~H'als o ·F seventeen years ago for this d"lscrim'i.nation? Corne on! SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hE!aln! MR. TOBIN: If we had the money v.1e s houJ.d gE!t. f Y' o rn C h 1.1 r' c h .. i. J. J. F d l. J s IAJ t'! tAJ o u 1 d d o aJ.right, but v.Jhat d-.i.d your l..E!adE!r do l-:her'r,1? MR.

DECKER : I say to the Min:i.ster of Eclt.tcat-:i.on, IAJhat. about. l:.hc,1 tAJelfare recipiE!nts his colJ.E!aQUE!, 1.11ho has 9 0 t: S 0 muCh rrtO U t h IAJh E! n h ('! :iS 110 t being addrE!SSed, thE! MinistE!r of Social Services (Mr. Tobin) is trying to get off his rolls and on u n e m p l o y rn e n t i n s u r a n c e , IAI h o iH' e being used to teach handicapped chiJ.dren under the guise of t.E!acher aides? jvlR. TOBii\l: Not trtJe! Not t.rue! MR.

DECKER : W-:i:Jl. t:hf:! mi.n·.'i.si".E!r asstJr'('! t:.he parents of hc.-l.ndicappE!d children t.hat. the welfare recipients are qualifiE!d to dE!liVE!r E!ducat:.ion to ·l:he.i.r' hand.icapp('!d chi.l.clr-en, as qualified as trained teachers? No. 11 RS61

,··- .MR. SPEAK~-~: The hon. the Minister of Education. MR . HEARN : Mr. Spc-?.aker, I IAJOtJJ.d like~~ t.o inform the hon. member that we are 110t USing the'! lAJ(:~l fare people. rhE:~ boards arE! taking pE!Ople, IAJho through no faul.t of t:he ir OI~Jn fi.nd themselves in receipt of social ass-i.stance, to go 'i.nt.:o l.:he school . s to work with our young people, and t: h e y cit' e d o -i. n g cUl e x t: r· em"'~ 1. y credible job, and many of them, bc-?.causE:' of the"~ hE~J.p U1C::~Y gol ... and because of thE! setting, have gone o n t o f i. n d g o o d , l. o n g -t e r· m , s o J. 'i. d employment.

We are not using them. MR. SPEAKER : Order, plE!aSE!! fhere is just t.i1m~ for one qtJick question and answer. MR. EFFORD : Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The han . the member for Port de Graue. MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mtn. SpE:~akc-:'!r, tny quE!St-i.on IAJas :intended for the hon. the PremiE!r, but he-:'! 'i.s not i.n l'.:hC::1 House, soT. IAJilJ. ask thE! qUE!Stion to the D<'!puty Promi. c,~r.

On November· 24· I had wr·-U:h'!l'l l.:h(,1 Premier asking him about the expe'!nsc;! of h"i.s l:t~Jo par·tl"i.ame-:!ntary ass :istants, and on December 16 I received a letter back with a s t a t em e n t - IAri. t.l a b .i.IJ , I s h o u 1 d say, for $4·45 saying that I would have to submit that amount in order to get the answer. When the-?. House,~ of Assembly opc,Hled I put the same question on the L562 March 28, 1988 Vol XL .· .. .. - ~ Order Paper in a written form, and, to date, we have not rE!CEdUE!d any r·c;q:>l.y back. Assurn:ing the Min :i.stE!r of FinanCE! has donE! hj s job, I IAJOuJ.d ask - MR.

SPEAKER : OrdE!r, pleaSE!! The hon. member is making a speech . MR. EFFORD: I IAJouJ.d ask +:he Deputy Pr·~~ m:.i.~'!r, the Government House LE!adE!r, jf hE! wo t.tl d g -L v t:~ us an ~~ x pl. an a 1: :i. on as to why to datE! we haVE! not rE!CEdued an answer to that question and when we can expect to receive it. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the President of the Counc:i .J.. MR . SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, the Premier was outside and did not catch the drift of thE! quesU .on. I do not: know if there is time left to repeat it or not.

The stmpJ.e ans1A1er· anyway :is t:hat the questions that: are placed on the Or·der Pap<~'r' take t:i.rn·c~ to rE!Spond to, t:-lnd hon. rn:intsb:!t~s oVE!r' her·p IAlil.l. r·<;!spond to thetn in due COIH'SC'!. MR. SPEAKER : OrdE!r, pleaSE!! The time for Oral Questions has <,~l.;:,lpsed. Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees MR . SPEAKER: I have one report .

Section 29(1) Par.liamentary (Ombudsman) Act, I No. 1. l Pursuant Lo of .The Commissioner am pJ.easE!d to I~~) 6 2

... say I have received Ann11R1l. r~c,~port of l"h<:~ Commissioner for the l 9 8 6 . T. ] ci y i. t o n the House. . .·.' the TWE!l fth Parl.:Lamc'!ll l··.ar·y calendar YE!ar 1:. h E:~ T i'i b l r,~ o f Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: ThE! hon. the Minister of Consum<:1r Affairs and Communications. MR. YOUNG : I would like to table an ~nswer to Question 101 asked by the han. mEnnber for St. BarbE! (Mr.. FurE'Y) . He->. IAJanted to knoi)J, Si.r·, tf l.:hc->. vehicle for thE! dE!partrnE!nt that I am dr i.v i.ng IAJas h'lnd<-'!red.

Yes, .. it: IAJas tendered and purchaSE!d through t h e c; o v ~~ r n mE! n 1·: P 1 1 r· c h a s i. n g A g e n c y . Elc,~ven firms were asked to submit b t cl s , ·i. n c l. u d i. n g B E! o Ull.l c k F o r· d . Hickman Motors IAJas grante'd the tender for $12,881. MS VERGE : Mr. SpeakE!r' . MR. SPEAKER: ThE! hon. the Minister of Justice . MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I qUE!Stions posed Mount Scio have answers to by thE! member for Bell Island (Mr. weok I March relating to a judicial tnqutry into a dE!ath. The first question had to do 1.1.Ji.l:h the rl'>.Spons~~ of the-?.

Department of Justice to the r·ecotmnenda1~i.ons of JIH:Ige Re"i.d 1.1.1ho conducted the inquiry. The dE!partm<-'!nt has rc,1spondE~d fJr·sl:'. by sending copies of thE! judgE! 1 S r'<:1porL 1-:o l·.hE:! Fclm-i.l.y of +.:ho v'ic:t:J.Jn and also to the appropriate 1. 56 3 Mr.n·ch 2B, 19HB Vol XL ·.· poliCE!, firE! and Coast Guard agencies aski.ng each agency 1-:o take appropriate action with r(:~giH'd to d<->.·f -L c:i.r;!nci.es. Two of thE!Se agE!nc:iE!S, ncHriE!ly thE! Royal Newfoundland Constabulary and the St.

John 1 s Fire Department, are parts of the Department of JustiCE! and I w:i.J.1 comment on 1.1.Jhat those two Forces have done. The RoyaJ. Newfoundland Constabulary has, nurnb(~r one, SE!t up a Policy Review Committee to deal with emergency situation procedures. The Committee is presently upgrading the police force poJ.icy on response t:o emergency situations to ensure that there is proper co - ordination and d prCipc-'!r chd i.n of cornrn61nd- i.n such situations. NurnbE!In ti.I.JO, tl'lE!

Roy '-'i 1 N c;!I~Jf o u n d J. a n d Co n s t:. <:~ b u 1 a I" y have issued instructions to its rn c,~ 111 b o r· s l .. o e n s IH' f:! 1:: h a t:. r E~ p o r• t:. s o n sudden deaths are done on a timely b a s :i. s a n d t:. h a +.: f and. l. i. e s o F ~ri. c t.:.i. rn s arE! i n for rn E! d of t hE! datE! o F , cHI y i.nq1J i.r·y. The S t . J o h n 1 s F i r E! De p <.; r t rn E! n t h a s d () n (-'! I· h (-'! r () 11. ()lAd n g : N Lllll b e r 0 n c~ I it has reviewed policies and procedljrl':!S r'H9c'H'cl:ing r'E:!spons<'' t.o emergency situations.

In line t.1.J'.'i. t h t h :i. s , it "i. s in t. he pro c E! s s of acquiring new equipment to supplement existing rescue E!quiptTIE!nt. Number two, thE! St. John 1 s Fire Department has acquired floating suits. The Coast Guard, of courSE!, is a federal agency and will h~ve to assess the judge 1 s rE!COrrHnE,ndati .ons and respond accordingly. Tht'! second qtJ(,~st.:ion posc,~d mE!rrtbE!r had to do IAJi.th the. l"epr·c,~sc,1ntatl.on by th<'! Coast Guard at the No. ll by t:he• lack of CcHH~di.an judi.cial R.S63

. · .; .•. ' inquir·y. Mr·. SpE!aker, I would remind t:he m~::Hnber that the inquiry, as the nam e implies, is a j udici.a l in qu i ry co nduc te d by t he judge, in this case, Judg e Reid. The i nqu i ry ts ordered by the Director of Public Prosecutions and there is a Crown Attorney assisting the judge. In Ud.s part.tcular case'!, the j1.tdgc->. decided to dispense with caJling as a t~rltness cl mc'!rnbc'!r of th(->. Coast Guard.

There is a specific s t.atc,~m(~nt rrtiilde'! by the,~ j udgt:! l":hHt appears in thE! transcript of thE! jtHHci.aJ 'J.·nqt~.i.ry 'i.ndi.cat.i.ng that the judge concluded that it was n 0 t IAIO I" t: h d 1::11. a 1J 'i. l'l g C 0 n C J. US .. j_ 0 n 0 f thc,1 enq1.1 Lt"IJ ~ : o hi'lVf:1 d representatiVE! of thE! Coast Guar·d testify.

Evidently, according to the transcript, a retired mernber of the Coast Guard had been subpoenaed to give evidence but tAt as not a v a i 1 able , and a c cording to the transcript the judge concJ.uded that he t~.tould not de1ay the procee1dings to summon any other member of the Coast Guard. MR. BAKER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : A point of order, the han. the member for Gander. MR. BAKER : Mr. SpeakE!r, Friday I aslwd thE!

Pt"em-i. e r· a q I .If'! s 1·: ton and hH v (:H' 1J dJr'E!Ctly sa:i.d, 'I tAtill, on Monday, give the;, hon. mf~ tllbt·' !r d d.in:u : t answer· to his qUE!Stion.' I tJ.tondE!r :if the Pr·ern · i . (~r helS for·gotr.e;!n t.haLI or· if hE! has thE! anstJ.ter rE!ady to g:i.VE!? PREMIER PECKFORD : I tAti.J.l have :l t for you before thE! day is out.. MR. BAKER : LS64 March 28, 1988 Vol XL . ~· . •' Thank you, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : That was not a point of order . Orders of the Day MR . SIMMS: Order 2 . Commi ttee of Supply . On rno ti.on I th1:1 f·. the;!

H<H.ts E~ r·(:!solvc~ itse]f jnto Cornrnittee of the Whole on Jn l ... c,H•j 111 Si.tpply 1 Mr·. SFH~al«:1r left the Chair. Committee of the Whole MR. CHAIRMAN: OrdE!r, pleaSE!! MR . LONG : Mr. Spea b:~r. MR. CHAIRM0~ : The han . thE! member for St. John's E i31 st. . MR. LONG : Thank you, Mr. Chairman . I welcome the opportunity to rnake an "i.nl: er'V('!I'lt ·i.on ·t n l:.he;! d~~bat.

E! on Supply, and in particular I am pl. c.;! as c,~d t.:o p i.e k IJ p ft"orn 1.: he;! de ba t.l'! of the · last day, in which the f "i. n a 1 s p e,~ ;:,, k <->. r I tAt h o a d j o 1.1 r· n <,~ d t: h e dE!bate, tAtas the Mj nistEn· of Soci.aJ.

f) fH' v i c n s ( M r· . To b -L n ) . I tAt o u l d like to direct my comments d.i.r·c,1ci-. l.y 1'.0 SOITIC-'! of l::hc,1 r'f:!ITiiH'i<S that the Minister of Social Sc.;!r· vi.cc->.s rncu:Je->.1 so1ne->. of t.~th · i ch IAJE!re, in part, d:i.rE!Cted to othr:!rs tAJho h ad s p o k <->. n d 1.1 r· ·i. n g t: h f'! d E! b a 1: e J n reference to the question of cu+:.bacl<s. I t).JOtJJ.d l:ii<E! l:'.o rc~!fl;H' to Hansar·cl, which has just. bE!E!rl put. :.i.n fr·ont. of us. In Friday's debate, the No. 11 R 564- ... ~' .-.;:_ ..... _

... ·. . ... nri. rd s ·I· E! r· a t +.. h e c l. o s f'! o f ~l"i s remarks just before the a d j o 1.1 r· n lfH!! n I~ , s a y s , 1 No , M r . Chairman, in my department there hr:~tH~ not. b~H:!n any CLitbr.u:ks. 1 I sat listening to the minister deal l.u""i.i:h t.hE:1 "i.S SII8 of CtJLbacks IAih ·ich had be!en raiSE!d during the presE:1ntat.Jon of a pet-i t.i.on I had presented earJ.ier in thE! day, and IAI~dch was also r·a-i.sed by mernber·s speaking in this debate on Supply.

I made a note to refer to it in today 1 s debate!, and I expec!:.ed the mJ.nist.er LA.Jould come->. back and pick up and there would be sorne continuity in the debate from Friday, but. the m:i.niste!r is not here to rise to his feet. But what we di~ see over the IAJeekend, bE!tweE!n Friday and today, IAJas the m:i. nJ. s !:. er agaJ n rna k"i ng the case on behaJf of the department in yesterday 1 s newspaper, that aJ.though the figures might suggest other'IAJ i.se, thr:H'C:1 wc->.rc,1 no ctll'.:bt:~cks in the department. NotAl, Mr· . Chairman, it was just a fr:11~1 days ;:qgo · t:h.~t.

I pr·r· ~!>enl~ r,1r:l a pr:1t.iUon to this House on behaJ.f of 1, IJ.oo .ind -L v i.dt.ldl.s "i.n th~~ c i. Ly of St. John 1 s and area, many of t~Jhorn wr:H'e social c.~ss'i.str.HJcr->. recipients who were forced to come fori~JiH'd j IJS (: 'i::IAJO IAIC:H~ks bt->.fOY'e Christmas, organize themseJ.ves, and have a sotJp ki.tchen out i.n front of Confederation Building to ask the Minister of !:.he DeparUrH?.nt of Social Services, the Premier and the govt'!rnrnent to s 1-.op t.akJng money away from people who are in receipt of social assistance.

Since then, IAJe have had a chi~nge in the minister responsibJ.e for Lhc'! departm<->.nt. Th<'! mtnistc·H' al: the time began the chorus from govern rn E! n 1:. t: h a 1:: the r ,,.. t~H'! r e no cutbacks. Mr .

Chairman, at the 1:. i. me t: h a t p e o p 1. e IAH->. r· e o r· g a n .i z .i. 11 g a LS611 March 28, 1988 Vol XL pHI·:j.ti.on calnp; :.,ign in l::hr->. ci!.:y and organizing the'ir soup kitchE!n, I h;:~d pc:H:1pl c,1 COlflr,1 .J.n l.o lriY off"l. ce -l. n this building to ask rne for ~;uppor·t in appt:1a1:-i.ng bC'!yond t:.h(;!ir' social IAJorker, and beyond I: he supervisor for the dtstr-i.ct, to have rnonE!Y given back to thE!In IAJh :i. ch IAJas takc->.n aiAJCIY .

I had individuals come to me, const.ttt.lents oF mi.ne, P''!op1e from my district who WE!rE! rE!Ctduing social assistance, with two different cheque stubs . In response to the minister saying 1 there haVE! bE!E!n no cutbacks 1 , people showed rne cheque stubs for one pay period and then for another, two tAJet~l<s l.ater, i.n lAJh:i.ch they were receiving, in some cases, fifty do1lars, sixty dollars, eighty dollars lE!St', tn other cases more. Tn many cas<->.s, I und~H'st.ood fr·om taJ. king to people who carnE! to rne, and ;:,,l.so rne<'!ti.ng so1nt=! oF the peoplE! IAJho IAJere s:i.gning this p t-'! ·1:.

J. t i. on , 1:: hat 1·: hey tAJt-:~ r· e g -i. v E! n absolutely no notice Ed ther by Uw soc .i ;'' 1 t~Jo t' k P t' , by t h t'! r r,1 q "i. on a 1. supE!rvisors or by anybody in HIE' dr,1par'l .: lnPnl:. , and c~=!t'!·: a .. inl.y no advancE! noU.ce in thE! IAli:lY of publ i.e i. · l~y or· publ. i. e rela!:."i.ons Fr·om the department that there were goi.ng to b<,1 cutbacks "i.lnpJ.(,11Tit'!l'lLc~d to . peopJ.e in receipt of sociaJ ass'i.stance. Now, Mr .

Chairman, we have heard from the former ministE!r and frolll the n~~west: Mi.n:ist.r::or· of Social ServicE!S that thE!rE! haVE! bE!E!n no cutbacks, when we had peopl.e at Christrnastimo bringing their children and organizing a soup kitchen to try and draw pubJJc at.tentton to t.h(-'! issue. Th:i.s obvious disagreement between pc-?.opl.c,1 1.~1ho hC1V<'! Y'<-'!Ct~iVE!d less money in ·thedr pay cheques, ancl h;:~vc,1 thE! chPqu~; ! stubs !:'.o pr'OV(:1 i.l:, No. 11 RS65

• I .. • . · \ . . . .. - ~ and been m:i.rd.ster·s IAJho say no cutbacks, I addrE!SS. thE!re want hdve to In l:.he last fetAl days the minis t.er has beE!n making thE! continuing argument that . his department is spending rnot~E! this YE!ar on social services than any other· government has spent OVE!r past YE!ars.

We go back in time and what we hear is a litany from the Minister of Social Servi.c<:~s, the M·Lni.st:~H' of Education, the M:inistE!r of Health a n d a 1 l. o t h tH' rn :i. n i. s tc,>r' s tAl h o h a u E:~ difficulty justifying the restra-int env i.ronrrH'!I'lt. ~\l'ld cut:br.1cks that are bedng irnplemE!nted in t:hc:!·i.r c:lf~pHr·l·.mr"!nl-. s, b1.11·. i.n particular the Minister of Sod.al Services, coming in and sayjng, 1 PE-JoplE!_ in this Province haVE! never had it so gooJ.

We are spending more money today than any government of ·t:.h:is Pr·ovince has ever spent in the Department of Soc:i.al Servi.ces.' That is absolutely a ridiculous proposition to make to people who are forced to organize a soup kitchen because they are having money taken away from them, and to try and rally themselves as humblE!, modE!St recipients of social services l:o cotne and petition the government to give them back money which government is taking away from them. People are not interested in h E:1 a r· ·i. n g t he~ t i:: I'H:1 y h a u e n c,w e r had it so good.

People in health care a r· e s t r· 1.1 g g l. -L n g +: o d !:'! c~ 1 1~ri . '1: h 1': h c.;! effects of restraint in the hosp"i.t.al syst:em, pf~opl.r,1 who ;u·e ·teaching in our schools, or fli.H'ent:s whose'! c:hi.l.dr·c,1n r'lr('! faci .ng diffi.cultiE!S in thE! school systE!rn, hear from the M.inister of Education that they have never had i t s o g o o d , g o v fH' n me n t. h a s n e v r'! r spent so much money, this same chor·us over and ovHr.

Pc-:!opl.c,1 IAJho LS66 March 2 8, 19 8 8 Vol XL .· • • •.• • ! iH'<:1 br·inging fortAJard p~~t:itions to the government to be thoughtful and to be considerate and to be compassionatE! toward thE! pE!Op}E! of Ul'i. s Pr·o vi n c e IAlh(~ n l:·. hoy c otne forward tJ..dth rE!al nE!eds, a1J. they ar·e t:. old 'is, 1 You haVE! nev~~r had it so good. 1 I think that all the people of l:h·i.s ProvJnce, i. n part ·i.ciJ]ar· IAJ:i.th respect to social SE!rViCE!S and thE! ·i.SSIH.;! of r'c"!stratnt. w:ithi .n !::he dE~partmE!nt, are asking for is somE! respect.

People are asking that people who are in need ·in this P r· o IJ .. i. ncr'! b f~ t r ~~ell: r'! d 1.1.1 i. t h so rne dignity . That is a basic measurE! that: l .. h·ic; govr->.r·nrnen+:. sr-~C'!tn s to ha~JE! been unable to put in place . What I•JC,~ hi\Wr;! sf:!fHl is ;;1n aclrni ss ·i. on by the mjnister and others that ther e has been s o much admin·Ls .trative and management chaos jn that department for so l.ong that i t has essentially amounted to an adrniss.i.on that pc,~op1C'! aJ~t~ nol:. being treated with respect. Now, Mr.

Chairman, just a fE!W mi.nutes ago we were pr·esenb=!d wi.th the annual report of the Ombudsman for t:h<:1 calendar· year, 1986. As I was waiting for this debate to open, I 1eafed through the few pages in which thE!re arE! a nurnbE•t~ of items under Social. Services. and what WE! can SE!E! just by glanctng thr·ough sotne of the casos that were brought to the office of l::hP Ornbuds1n<:Hl is a nLtrnb<;!r' oF situations in tJJhich pE!OplE! u.JerE• not able to get a ny accountab:i1ity, e:ithE!r from thE! JJmrlHdi . i'ltr- ~ J.c'!Vf~l of t:ht'!Lr· s oci.;:d worker or anybody e1se in the df~p;u· l:: rnE:Hll: .

Jam sur·r,~ rnost hon . lflfHrtb('!Y' S of this House ar~~ IAIE!l1 at..r.Jar' E! oF thE! s .i. l:l.ti'lt.·.i.ons .i n IAlh Lch people~ com('! t.o their MHA as a court of J.ast r e s o r t 1 o o k -L n q for a s s :i. s l: i:'Hl c e i n No. 11 R!:>66

.· .. tr·ying Lo make t:hc;dr 1.~1ay l:hr·ough the bureaucy in the Social ~) (:1 r vic c;! 1 s DE! p<:t r· t ·.111 ('! n l·: 1-·. o r· E:! c c,1 ·j v c'! lAJhat thetr duly dE!serving of.

Cl. i.E~nts of I: he;! dr,lpar'IIH,nlf·, 1~1ho for· no good rE!ason and wi-th no advanCE! nol":"i.cf-:1, all. of a Sl.lddc,ln f"i.nd themselves having their money t.ai<E!n alAJay fr·om thc-!!rn, haVF.! to go to the:ir MHA or, in thjs caSE!, as 1~1 e s E! e 'i n s c-?. v e r· a 1 p a g e s o f ""l t E:! m s dealing with the Social Services De par t:mE~nt, to · t:h(:l Omb1.1dsman, to try and get some accountability in the,\ dep6trtment. NOIAJ, I guc,1ss, Mr.

Cha:ir·man, that E!Xplains to a certain E!Xtent why thl':! 1n:rnist.er· and the govc·H'nm€Hlt have just re!cent.ly put forward a proposal cal.l for an outs i de management consultant to come in and do an operational review of the Department of Social Services.

As a member of the official Opposj t.ion, the member for Port de Grave was referring to thE! other day, this advertiserne!nt has nOIJ.J bec;!n put-:. for'IJ.Jarc:l :i.nt.o Canada 1 s so-called national nE!IAISp<~Pf'!r, The Globe and Mail, and ~;o IAJe arE! looking at someonE! fr·ou1 Toront.b lH' Edmonton, pc'!r·haps, who knot!Js wherE!, coming into the dE!part.:ITIE!IT~. t'!ssr,,nUal.J.y f:o tc,1l.l t:hr,l Government of NetJ.Jfou ndland how to i.mpl.ement-. it:s c1~tbacl< pr·ogr·arnrn~~. how to implement a programme of restraint, how to carry forward its intention of taking money away f r· o rn p c'! o p l e .

I t h 'i. n k w h a t: IAI e f.H' E:~ go·:i.ng to see in thE! corntng months ·1.s cont.:int.il'::d d"i.scord and cont-inued tension, peopJ.e social. cJ.oient.s pressure bEd.ng placed IAJho arc'! :in rece-Lpl:: assistance, people who of this department.. on of arE! WE! IAii.ll SE!e what. l:.he MJn:ister· of FinanCE! has to say in his budgE!t l.·.ornorrotAJ, b_u'l: obv:iously t.herc,l has been a hue and cry, a call for cJ.arnp"ing do1m1 on rnon"i.E~s be""i.ng Ll=)67 March 28, 1988 Uol XL spr,~nt: -Ln t:h(:l Dc-?.par·l::mc-:lnl":. of Soc i.al Services, and thj s can onJ.y mean tRklng money away from people.

Bc;!for•r.:! [ concl. 1 . 1dr.~, Mr·. Cha "i r'ITlan, I a]so want lo refer t.o cutbacks oi::hr'!Y' 1-:hr:~n t:hosc,l placc'!d ·i.n fr·ont of individual recipients.

The o 1-.: her f ·i. as cos t: hat too k pl. a c ('! :i. n the department in the Fall months, bof.:h of 1~1h-Lch r becHrne ·involved in in making representation on behalf of pHopJ.e IAJho carnE! l::o me, were the Tranportation program for sentor· ci.t.Jzens and . hanciJcappE!d people out in the Conception Bay South ar•c,1a, IAJhere t:hr~ Prc,~lnic'!r had to step in, and the,~ MHA 1 s from thE! arHa, t.:he member for Conception Bay South and the member from H a r b o u r M a :i. n , h a d 1.: o c o rn e i. n a n d admit that a m:istake had been made J. n c u t t J n g o u t t h '"i. s t r· a n s p o r 1":. a t. :i. o n subsidy and the money would be found somewhere else in government, and just tlAJO IAJeE!I<s pr·"i.or l::o +.:hat IAJe had an ""i.ssue IAJi.t-:.h disabled people under the URDP pr·ograrrunr,~ IAJhich, ""i.n Fact, :i.s a federal programme; monjes that 1.: h :i s P r· o v :i n c f~ r· c'! c P ""i. v c,~ s f r· o I'll 1:: h l'' fedE!ral goVE!rnrrH:!nt to assist pc,1opl . r.~ in t:hE~ djsablf'!d colnrnt~ni . ty to receive post-secondary c,lducat .i.on, 1Aii':1S t.:akc,'n at•Jay fr'om them wtthout notice.

Mr. Cha"i.r·man, un t:h<,1l:". occas·.ion l::hc~ djsabled people organoizecl t:hemseJvc-:~s and clc,lrnandecl a lfl~'!€~1-.::lnq with thE! PrE!miE!r of thE! ProvinCE!, b e c cw s e t: h E! y c o u l d g e t. n o IAI ~H~ r r::~ with the minister of the d (.;q:> a r~ t. me n L , and L he P r-· \:!in i E! ;--· c a 1 n e out and said, 1 Mr. MjnistE!r, givo the money back to those people. Now, we w:i.ll see in budget. IAJhat has bE!E!n tornorro1~1 1 s plnOdUCE!d b (:! t:. IAI E! '"' n hand:i cappE!d through negotiations mornbers of tho community and the Soc:i al SE!rvj CE!S on prograrmn<'!.

No, 11 DE!partrnc'!n l: of this part:icuJar R567

. ,•,. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, pJ.(::lase! The han. member 1 s time ts up . MR. LONG: If I can just haVE! thirty seconds to conclude, Mr . Chairman. AN HON. MEMBER : By lE!aVE!? AN HON. MEMBER: No. No leave. MR. LONG: Thank yot~, Mr. Chatrrnan. In concluston, I would say that it is AN HON. MEMBER : Your time is up. leave . There is no MR. LONG : &y leave, Mr. Chairman? minute to conclude? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN: Just a The han. the member for St. John 1 s East . MR. LONG : Thank you. What: I have attempted to demonstrate, Mr.

Chairman, is t h a t. t h e i. s s u e of c u t b a c I< s i. s a very real one, and that it is simply not good enough for the minister to come into the House and continue to state over and over that cutbacks haVE! not bE!E!n happening. I tAdll continue to do my be,st t.o makE! rE!prese,nt.at.ion on behalf of individuals and organizations who are involVE!d :in various relationships with the Departme,nt of Social ServiCE!S, and continue to ensure that this government not try to balanCE! its books on t:he backs of the poor of L568 March 2 8, 19 8 8 Vol XL ... . . this ProvinCE! speci.al nec;,ds.

Chairman. and pE!OplE! wit.h Mr. Thank you, MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. LhF.! Mirri.sf:t,~r of ~?oc:i.al Se!rvices . MR. TOBIN: Mr . Chairman, I listened attentively to the hon. gE!ntlE!ITlE!n from St. John 1 s East. lie constantly referred to cutbacks in the Department of Social Services. Mr . Chairman, sinCE! 1979, thE! budget of the Department of Social Services has incre,ased by 14-6 pE!r cent. S'ince 1979, Mr. Chairman, a 146 per cent increase. and the hon. gentleman refers to cutbacks. There haVE! beE!n no cutbacks 'in the Department: of Social Services, Mr. Chairman.

Everyone who needs our services are receiving what they are entitled to receive. There are occasions where we have to go beyond that, -ln special circumstance's, but J.f sornE,body :i.s receiv -ing someth-i.ng that. there~ .i.s no entitlement to and the o p e r· a t -:i. o n -L s p u t ·i. n p J. a c e a n d l:: h e mechanism is put in place, Mr. C h a i. r m a n , t: o d e a J. '"''·i t. h t hat. , t: h a t. is not a cutback. Eve,rybody who r e c e :.i. v (.;! s o u r s e r v i. c e s r e c e i. v ~=' t: h e maximum amount that they are entitled to.

Our soci.al ass'istance budget, jusi: social assistance alone, Mr. Chairman, is some1.uher('?. :in t·:hE! area of $100 rn:LJ.lion a year. The hon. member did not go on to talk about what we are doing J.n community development programmes, where we are spending $30 million to $40 miJ.J.ion a year to put people back into the work force. What about our child programme, Mr. Chairman, No. 11 weJ.farE! our youth R568

corrections and mental retardation pro g r a mrn e s ? And the J. i s t can go on. There is no ment.i.on of- that from thE! hon. gE!ntlennan, hE! just touches on two or three areas. And then hE! says, 1 I was skipping through the Ombudsman 1 s report that was just passed to me and alJ. I could find IJJas these reports on the Department of Social Services, and how bad they were, how it affected cutbacks, and how cutbacks were in pJ.ace. The first one was a person who had indicated interest in opening a day-care centre and wanted that dea1t:.

IJJith; the second onE! was a yo1Jng man who complained of unnecessary delay in receiving a crib; the Lh·i.r·d one dealt wJ.l.h a sing] e pE!rson who was living w:i.th his parents who applied for social assistance and was turned dOIAJn; the fourth one, Mr. Chairman, was a lady who complai.ned because she IJJas refused assistance unti1 her impending separation from her husband was finalized. The next one had to do with a single mother complaint. ShE! had somE! sort of skin diSE!aSE! and s he IJJa n t E! d the Depart rn en t. · t. o buy her a washing machtne.

The next one had to do with someone who complained that a chi1d was removed from ht'?.r care by the Department apprehE!nsion of a chi.ld by the Department. The next one, Mr. Chairman, had to do with a woman who was employed in a home care project and there was some rn i x -- u p a s t o t~J h e n s h e r e c G i v c~ d 1·1 (~ r compensation for that project. The next one i.nvolved a COIJple who wanted social assistance, because the husband was IAJorkt ng on a project and had not: receive any money. And !:hat. i.s ii:, Mr. Chairman. Thai:. is it.

Here is to do L569 '· t.his IJJ:i. t h rE!port that CIJtbacks March 2 8, 19 8 8 has i.n alJ. the Vol XL Department of Social Services. Mr. Chairman, that statE!TTIE!nt madE! the hon. gentleman is about as a c c u r a t E! a s a n y s t a t E!l'll E! n ·t. I h a v E• ever heard him make in this House. Now, Mr. Chair·man, he IJJent on to talk about the DE!part.mE!nt show:i.ng compassion and dignity for people. The social workers in this Province, Mr. Chairman, who came under attack the other day from the hon. gentJ.eman, thE!Y, that professional group of dedicated indi.vidual.s - MR. LONG : (InaudiblE!) . MR.

TOBIN: -------'I" h (,1 at t ack on t h E:1 soc -La 1. IAJO r k f'! r ~; of this Province the other day, lAJ h o n o bod y c o u 1 d d (,1 a l IAJi. l .. h , t h a t came from thE! mernbE!r for ~a .. John 1 s East., and he tAJas cht;!er€~d on by his Leader, an attack on a professional group in this Province. Probably they are one of the groups in this Province, Mr. Chairman, who arE! not purnp:i.ng money into the N.D.P. Party. Maybe that :ls thE! problEnn, that they are probably supporting pE!OplE! in othE!r poliU.cal part:i.E!S as opposed to the socialists of this ProvinCE!.

MaybE! t-.hat :i.s where he is coming from. But., Mr. Cha:irman, becaus(:! of thE! attack that was made the other day, I ought to say that lhe social workE!rS :i.n this ProvinCE! do · not nec~d (:~ny J.ect.IJre frorn the mE!Inber for St.. John 1 s East as to how to be compassi.onate and how l:o extend dignity to people. I arn proud of the staff that works i n the Department of Social Services, Mr. Chairman, I am (,1X l:r'E:1m<~!ly pr·oucl of t:i·H~m. They a1nE! a v e r y d E! d i c a t: e d a n d c o nurd t t.E! d group of ind-Lvtduals working for a No. 11 R569

.. . ~ · cause, to deal with people who need our seruices. As it. re!lates to his statement on I: he peop1e from Harbour Ma·"i.n, there was a probl~rn the~e. Mr. Chai .rman, no doubt about ·i.t. It lAJas bE!forE! my dey, but as I under s tan d i. t , i. t was d i s co u e r E:l d that thE! Department of So.cial Serui.ces were pay i. ng for a seruice, and wherE! it was corning from they were not enti.tled to it; a social worker discovered that under the heading i.t was com'i.ng within our department, there was no entitlement. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Chairrrian. on a point of orde!r. MR. CHAIRMAN: OrdE!r, please!

A point of order, the hon . the member for Eagle Riuer. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Chairman, we are doing Inte!rirn Supply and we have twenty-three Cabinet ministers to answer questions on this Interim Supply · Bill. Since WE! only haue six Cabinet rninistersin the House, could the Party Whip on thE! government side direct some Cabinet minister to come in and list.en to otJr questions? DR. COLLINS : To that pcd.nt of or·der, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: To that point of order, the hon. the Minister of Health. DR . COLLINS : I presumE! thE! hon. ITIE!ITiber was not getting up on a quorum calJ..

If he was, he was clearly out of or de r . I do no t t.h i n k there i s anything in our rules about L5'70 March 2 8 ; .1 9 8 8 Vol XL. ~ "'l - • • • attendance minute by rninul~ o or hour by hour in the House. TherE! is a general rule that we are supposed to attend business in the House, but many rn'lnistE!rS and 1nany members do haue occasion to go out r.o perfor·m other dut·i .e s whi.le t: l'll~ House is in session on any one particul~lr day.

So, for t.:h~1 hon. thc,l mornb(;!r to suggest there is something amiss here, I think h~1 must have'.~ rnJ.sroad thE! rules, or pE!rhaps thE! nE!W order . a eros s the way are not. instructing thedr mE!ITlbE!rs, or thE!Y are instructing them incorrectly or whatever. In any case, the hon. mE!rnber has no point of order what.E!Uer . MR. CHAIRMAN: There is no point of order. The hon. the Minister of Social SeruiCE!S. MR. TOBIN : Thank you uery much, Mr . Chairman . As it re!J.ates to the sen:i.or· ci.ti .ZE!ns out H1ere, Mr. Chai.r·rnr.~n. the programme was not dropped.

The rnechan·i. s m was put "i.n plau'! by this government to accommodate that seruice and it was just taken from our department and placed sometA.Jh<:lre else, .in r: he Departrn(!J1t of Health, as I understand it. That is basically what. happened. As it relates to the VRDP programmE!, the han. gE!ntleman madE! reference to t:h~Hn d~Hnand:inq a meeting w:i.th the PrE!miE!r. That :i. s not the case, Mr. Chai.rrnan. They did not. demand a meeting with the Premier, t11E!Y requested a meeting with the Premier. AN HON. MEMBER: There is a big difference . No. 1.1 R5?0

.. ... , MR. TOBIN : Yes, ther•(;! "is a lot of di.ff(,~rence between demanding and requesting. You knOIAJ, the hon. gentleman IAJant:.s to go on about demanding a meeting lAd l::h the Prc->.mier. I · IAJas IAJorking in the Premier 1 s Office at the time, and . wh~n the request came in, Mr. Chairman, it was dealt 1,ui t h rather SIAJi ft 1 y; the P rerni er met with these people and · they had a good meeting. I happened to know these people, too, because the chairman of that group 1,uas a constitue~t of mine and a good friend of mine. AN HON. MEMBER: He is a fine man . MR.

TOBIN: S u r· e h e .i s a f -L n ,,~ m a n . F v ''"- r y o rw up there are fine people . Mr. Chair·man, I think I haVE! basicctl.ly coverE!d the ~ i.ssues raised by the hon. gentlernE!n. As I have sctid, there were no cutbacks in the Department of So c i a 1 S e r v i c e s . t repeat a g a i. n , the Budget of thE! DE!partrnent of Social Services has increased by 146 per CE!nt since 1979. I hopE! the han. gent.J.ernan is J.i.sten:ing, a 14·6 per CE!nt increase in thE! Department of Social Services. And when you have an increase, that is not a cutback; a decrease is a cutback.

So that is where the han. gentJ.ernan is corning from. He has to accept the fact that we are progressing, that this d.::~pc.-u~t.ment, Mr. Chairman, is very conscious of t.:he services IAJIO:~ are providing. And we will continue to provide a good service to the people, Mr. Chail~rnan, we w:ill continUE! to do it, despite the han. member For S;t .. John 1 s East. SOME HON. MEMBERS: 1..5'71 March 28, 1988 Vol XL MR. GILBERT: Mr . Chair·rnan. MR . CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member for BUJ~gE!O Bay d 1 Espoir. MR. GILBERT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . .

We, on this side of the House, have endeavoiH'l':!d to g€~ t so1ne answers to questions we have asked various ministers. My concern has been the Minister of T r a n s p o r t: at i o n . La s t M o n d ,3. y , 1,u h E! n I first spoke in this dE:~ batE!, I potni":ed out. l::hat thc,~y l.o~JE~rE! as k:i. ng for IntE!rim SuppJ.y in thE! al'llount of $ 1 /. f:i rni.l.l. i. on , IAJh -L c-h ... L s '7 5 p ''! r cent of thE! total budgE!t. for· last year. What. I askE!d for· at.: t.hat: U.rne was a bre!akdoiAJn of LhE! exp.::~ndoi.

Lures IJndor the;! h~;:~ad:i.ngs that we ar'E! going to bE! dE!~H'.I.ting i. n the Budgr::d: _aft:.::~r t.omorr'OIAJ, <':'Hld I have not received it. On Friday Morning we hE!ard tho mi. n i s t: e r g "i. v .::~ s o rn "-~ a n s IAJ .:.~ r s , IAJ h :i c h brought it up to about $70-odd mill. i. o n , b 1 J t: t h r::~ r e a r· e ~~ 5 1. rn :i 11 J. o n that have not bE!E!n acountE!d for. NOIAJ, l.o~.Je knOIAJ that thE!re a1ne $67,821,000 for the road construction budge;! t. NOIAJ, th:i s .is a conce!rn of ours :ln vi.E!W of t:hE! fact that when the Minister of Finance! stood up to intr·oduCE! thE!

Interim Supply Bill, his explanation was that they needed this money to carry on the orderly running of the goVE!rnrnE!nt. and thE! day--l::o--day expenses IJnt:i .l stJch time as the budget was passed. I heard him in the media this morning saying tha~ :if the OpposiU.on hung up the passing of l:.h:i s bi 1.1., sa lar·-i.(;!s t.o~Jou J d not be paid, weJ.farE! and soci.a1 SE!r'vicE!S No. 1l r~ s '7 1

""t." would not bE! paid, and that sort of thing. We have no intention of hanging it up, aJ.J. we would likE! to have are l~he answers '1-:o. our q u e s t ion s . Now , t hey are s a y i n g that we have not asked the qUE!Stions. We have asked thE! questions and Hansard will prove that. So tJJhat we ar'E! saying right now of the t: hr:1 able is, ·in the Depari:rn<;!nt Transportation E!Ven though minister is not here, maybe Minister. of FinanCE! would be to answer otJr questions ·- we knotAJ th~t $67 million of this is for road c on s t r u c t i o n .

T h <H' e ~i. s another fifty-odd thousand that we are wondering about., and !Ale tAiould like to haVE! an E!Xplanation as t.o how it. is going to be spent. Mr. Chairman, in view of thl':~ fact that the y k now t he y are g cd. n g to spend $1':> million on improvements and road construction, and they know road and bridge rehabilitation will cost almost $13 mtlJ.ion, bridges and causetAiays $1.8 million, and the Trans-Canada HighiAiay $26 million, 'if you tAiant. this passed so that you can go to ea rly tender, we would like to know why you cannot tell us where t hi. s is go"l ng to be spent at Ul'i. s time.

This would fly i ·n the face of everything that was in the Audit:or General's report, wherE! they said the dHpr.lrt.mE!rlL d:i.d not. have a guidE!line or a policy or a procedure for highway funding 'in Newfoundland, and it was done on a political rather than a priority basis. So, to~.le knoto~.l this is thE!re, and we now know that when the stands up in this House the list of • road prograrnmE!S, it is gotng political list rather priority list.

So, if L5'72 March 2 8 , 1 9 8 8 .... -- , ••·, 0 min:i.ster and gives pavtng to bE! a than a he knows, Uol XL t.ha t. pasSl~d hE! iS we think Supply :is thE! roads contracts on 1101AI. before Interim he should name gotng to call However, t~oJe knoiAI IAih«:.~re $73 m·.i11Jon is going to be spent, and the roads ar·e "i.n th('!re no doubt., so we do not think there will be a reason to have a polit:ical list this year, it is known in advanc:~~. But:. t:h<H'e iH'e ~li~11. million or so J.eft around, and we would l.iko to knOIAI IAII'lBI"<;! th.:'!t. is going to be spent.

Now, the other qUE!stj.ons I haVE! are on the Department of Public Works and ServiCE!S . You will n o t: i. c e t: h a t 8 0 p e r c E! 1"1 1:. o F l. i:'.l s t year's budget of approximately $44 rnt1lion i.s b(.;dng. ask E!d for :in Intertrn SuppJ.y. NOIAI, WE! hE!ard thE! Finance Minister on Friday give as a reason the fact that you had to buy insurance; some of the insurance had to be prepaid on the normal operations of your d e p a r t rn e n t , M r . M j, n i s t. e r . We f E! e 1 that. 80 per ·cent of the budget for last YE!ar is a J.:l.t.t.1E!

E!XtrE!rne to as k for· -L n In t E! r :i. rn Sup p 1. y , so !Ale would like to know the headings under which th -L s i s going to be spent; how much on current. accounl ·. , how much on capital account, and if thE!rE! arE! any extraordinary expenses in this $34,910,000 that you are asking for th'is yr:H~r. lf l/oJ(,1 g(,1i~ i::ht:' dl'lSIAH,1r'S 1::0 thOSE! quE!Sttons, we haVE! no problem IArii:.h pass:i.ng Int.er··i.rn Supply. WE! do not want to hang it up . WerE! t.hE!rE! extraordinary expenses? Was the money needed for relocating the office of the Mirdsi::E!r of FinanCE! 1 S, or the offtcE! of Hw hon.

House Leader, or the offoi.ce of the Mtnister responsible for Labrador? Is t.h'.is tJJhy t:.hoi.s rnonE!Y is needed up front this year, No. 11 R5'7/.

. ... rather than bed.ng spE!nt OVE!r the y~~ar? I wi.l.l not take,~ my ten m:i.nut:r:~s. I have asked the questions that I have been asking since last Monday. If we get the answers, fine, IAJe have no problem IAJi th approving it. MR. SIMMS : Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: PrE! sidE! nt like t.o House Mr·. Leader of Befgre recognizing the of the Council I would welcome to this han. Sandy Cameron, former the Nova Scotia Liberal Party. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CHAIRMAN: The han . the President of the Council.. MR. SIMMS : Mr. Chairman, I am delighted to see Mr. Cameron "i.n thE! galJ.('!r "i. f~s.

He is an old personal friend of mine. r. do not knouJ i.f ht::~ l.s doi;,Jn here now to try to give some gu-idance to l~_he Leader of the Opposition or members opposite. I will be kind to him and I will not make any aside · remarks, but nevertheless, I had occasion 1..\Jhen I was Speaker, as a matter of fact, to meet Mr. Cameron on many parliamentary jaunts. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Jaunts? Jaunts? MR. SIMMS : Well, on the many parliamentary jaunts that. Mr. Cr::uner·on IAJas on, I happe!ned to bE! thE!rE! as SpeakE!r.

Nevertheless,• I am delighted to see him and I will have a chat with him later on. 1_573 March 28, 1988 Vol XL Mr. Chairman, I want to try to respond to the questions put relative to the DE!par-l:mi'Hlt:. of' Transportation. fhe Minister of Public Works (Dr. TIA.ICHney), I presume, may want to comment on some of the questions the han. member asked related to that particular de!partmE!nt.

I had sornE! d i s c u s s i o n s lAd. t: h t h e rn i n i. s i: e r , IAJ h o unfortunately was not E~blE! to bt::~ here today and as b~d h.im some further questions relative to those types that you have alrr:~ady put here this afternoon. With respect to the capital account projects, or i:he capital funding for roads the member talked abollt., and I guess sped.fically it. is thE! r·oad 1 s al.local::i.on h_,,~ i.s rE!f(-;!rroing t.:o because I be!J.ieve al1 thE! other 1 s numbers were given to him. He quoted some of thern himself. AN HON. MEMBER: ( Inaudi.blE!.) MR.

SIMMS: WE!lJ., I bE!1iE!VE! hE! had brE!akdcii.<.JnS for· the,~ $67 rni.l.l.:i.on. It :i.nclud~'!d Labrador de!pot bui1dings, fo1"est.ry nur·soing build:l.ngs lnldl':!r Ef~DA, 1-:hE! fisheries initiatives undE!r EfWA, airstrips which are all 100 per cent federal but which the Prov:ince l'llllst put fund-.ing up front for, forest resource roads under the Forestry Development Resource Agreement, Transport Canada highl;,mys projects, the br·idgE!S and causeways, the road and br-idge rehabilitation and the improvements and construction of roads.

The irnpli.cat:i.on from the hon. member and members opposite is that the dt::~ci.si . on on l::hese ro,''H'ls must. bE! 1m~dC::1, otherwis10:1 thE!Y wou1d not be-:! l.ookoi.ng for t.:h(;! funding in Interim Supply. I believe that is No. ll r~ s 7 3

the gist of the question. I, myself, heard the'! minister respond on Friday by saying, no, the priorities have not been determined, as of yet, and that is a fact, so no list.: is available to table. I belieVE! he also indicatE!d he wo1Jl.d. make Jt: available when those decisions I~Jere made. Ho1.uever, pr·epiH'ati .ons For early tendering would still need to be done and +:hal: i.s IAJhat-. t:h~1se f1Jnds arE! placed in thE! IntE!rirn Supply B:lll for, because the'! over·alJ. budget may not be finalized perhaps unt·il June or July. Who knows?

So, the department wants to get on with early tendering and, in order to do so, it puts an allocaU.on in the Inter··im S1Jpply Bill so that that kind of work can be done. In addition to that, I IJJil.l not comment on his remarks about thE! decisions t.hi~t are made on road 1 s projects they are political because that debate will go on forE!Ver and a day. I know in the past members opposite have made that same charge and members on this side have got up and shouJed sornE! differing view points and opinions related to that charge. That will go on forever and a day. T am not going to anter into that kind of debate.

I will leave that up t:o t.:h~1 mona capable debaters in the Legislature. The hon . member· asked for some of the other numbers as well, what makes up the other $51 million. I do not k now E! x act 1 y what thE! h on . min ·i.st.er gave you on Friday b1Jt I will try to run through some. MR. GILBERT: Give us the current account . L57,4 Marc h 2 8 , 1 9 8 8 Vol XL MR. SIMMS: Just for the edification ITit;!mbt;!rS, J.et us SE!E! if you heard of these before .

I do know. of havE• not Under the heading related to government-owned aircraft those are the aircraft that government operatE!S th~~rf:1 is $2.3 million in there in Interim Supply which covc->.r·s ongoJng opcH'at"i.ng costs ;:~nd there is also provision thE!rE! fol' ' E!ncurnbrances to be r:1st.abl.Jshc~d for fuel and other supply iterns. That is $2.3 rn-i.ll.ion. Perhaps you d.-i.d not have that one. Under FE!rry VE!S SE!lS, thE!rE! is nearly $500,000 there for major modificati·ons to our VE!SSE!1s, p1us the debt expen s es for the Fogo and the Burgeo Rarnea ferry operations.

There is another $500,000 in there in Interim Supply which we must have to cover that prior to the end of June. So i.t needs to be done early. Tho1~e is also nearly another $100,000 for maintenance of ferry torrninals and for ongoing operai.~ :i . ons. Also u n d e r F e r-r y 0 p e r a t. i. o n s , UH:~ r ~~ .1. s anothE!r $3.794 rniJ.lion for· norrna1 operations in the - MR. GILBERT: WouJ.d you allow a question? MR. SIMMS: Ct"'rtainly. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the me'nnber for BurgE!O - Bay d 1 Fspo"i.r. MR. GILBERT: Mr.

Chairman, we know under the various h~1adi.ngs, for E!XamplE!, iF he said ferry operations out of this total amount. is $10 rrrilJ.:i.on, IAJe know IAJhc~re it. 'i.s gcdng to be spent, instead of laboriousJ.y taking $100,000 here or $100,000 No: 11 RS'/4.

th,-:!re. Tf you took Lh,,~ hE1ad'ings and just said that, then okay, and Lhen if we had a spec i flc question to ask concE1rnj ng the he1adings, WE! IAJould ask 'i.l:.. ThAl~ IAJ'i.l.J. spr-~E:H:l l.:hE! situation up for him. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han . the President of the Cound.l .. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Chairman, I do not have that breakdown in that particular order.

I figured you would want a more detaJ.led breakdot.un, That is t.uhy I am trying to provide the hon. mt~mber tAdth more 'information than he is really looking for, in that case. rhat is the reason I was doing it this way because I thought it IAJould be beneficial to the hon. members. So that million, ongo-i.ng, saJ.aries member· that. !Alas $3.794, n,,~arl.y $3.8 for Ferry Operations, nor·mal. operations, for and the like.

The han. may or may not hAve had Airstrip Maintenance, four hundred and some,~ odd thous;:~nd dol.l;:~l~s; A"i. r· Subsidies, whicl'l providE!S for thE! ant.oi.c:i.pab-:!d monthly paywents l:o bE:~ made for the various subsidy programmes underway, nearly $600,000, in excess of $500,000; License and Registration Processing, nearly $800,000, almost another $1 million, I gue1ss, allows for ongoing operations, provisions also being made to order license plates early in the NetAI Year; Gu:ide RaiJ.s, $71,000; Land Acquisition, there is $1 million in there for ongoing land acquisition.

What. else have the hon. members perhaps not received? Highway Des:ign Wor·k r·equ i.r·ed early "i. n the year, ongoing operations, and Mar·ch 28, 1.98B Uol XI . provision is madE:~ also to pur·chase supplies early in the fiscaJ. year. That is $345,000, nearly another $500,000. Soils and Paving, for· ongo "i.ng op~:~r;"t:ions oF that particular division, with allotAJanc(,1S 1-:.o pur·chas(;! E1quJpmont E! a r 1 y in thE! N E!IJJ Year, $3 4·1 , 000 . Administrative Support.:, $1.6 million for ongoing operations, and allowances for salary costs early "i.n the fiscal year. Let us see now! What else have here?

Maintenance do WE! of Lhe $12 Eqt~iprnent --I do not knot.o~J if hon. rrtE!rrtbE!r got that numbE1r· -­ rniJ.J.ion. MR. GILBERT: -------It was $8 million on Friday , MR. SIMMS : No, Maintenance of Equipment, $12. 1?.5 m-Ll.lion' rhat: is for t:he processing of encurnberances early i.n t.he f:iscal y~~ar, plus saJ.ary costs for seven pay periods for that time from Apr i l. 1 to the middle of June or wherever. So t h'a t ·i s $ 1. 2 rn·i.l. J. :ion r· .i g h t. the r· e .

I do nol: know how much alJ. this adds up ·to l'lOIAJ, but maybe you might be able to give me a running total. thC:~r·''! shortly, and I tAJ-.i l J. find some more1. Snow and Ice Control - this is aJ.J. in addit:ion to the $67 miJ.J. i on now. AN HON. MEMBER : No . MR . SIMMS : Oh, yes . MR. SIMMS : No, my unde1rstanding is that that is "i.n add"i.t i on to the $65 rrd. 11 ion . The $6 7 rrd 1 1 ion Wcl s a J. J. No. 1 1 R5'75

capital, for Road s , Roads and B r :i d g e R e h a b i 1 i ta t io n , H :i g hwa y s , Bridges a nd Caus e ways, Airstrips, Forest Res our ce La nds, Fisheries Initiatives, Forestry Nursery Bui1dings, and t.he Labrador depot. That is $67 million. In addition to these numbers giv :ing. AN HON. MEMBER: (TnaudiblE!) . _MR . SIMMS: that that are some of I have beE!n The breakdown of the $67 million. AN HON.

MEMBER : Where are the roads? .MR~MMS: I have alrE!ady explainE!d, the· decisions on the roads have not yet been made as to where the road projects w:i.11 take pl. ace, but the department needs money obviously to prepar·e for ear1y tendering J.n anticipation of those projects getting underway early in the fiscaJ. · year, because if you haVE! to wait for the budget itself to be completed, it might not be finalized until June, for exampJ.e. Therefore, you have lost the opportunity for early tende!d .ng. So it is a block amount of funding essentially. That is what it is.

The projects, when they are f :i.nal.i.ze:1d and de:~l .:er·rni.ne:~d. as l have already said once and I believe the Minister of Transportation said on Friday, wtl.l. be made available to hon. members when those decisions are made . Those df:~c.is : i.ons are:~ not Y<'! t: made. MR. WELLS : Would the hon . minister pE!rmit a quest .. i.on? LS76 Mar•ch 28, 1988 Vol XL MR. SIMMS: Sure. MR__;_ CHAIRI\1.~N: The han. the of t. hE! Opposttion. MR .

WELLS: HotAJ can the government detet"rn:ine the amount to be spent j.f it does not know where the roads are, what ones are bEdng donE!, and dOE!S not have an .estimate of t;.Jhat the cost u.Jill bE!? That is what such f oi 9 1 ~ r <~1 s a r· e u s 1 J r.lJ. 1. y b a s e d on . MR . CHAIRMAN: The hon . the Pre s ident of the · Counc ·i l. MR . SIMMS : T arn glad U1e:~ hon .

Le ad E!r' o f Lh o OpposJ.tion asked that qU E!S t.i o n, bc~caus<~1 obv-iously th e d E!partm E! n t dOE!S have an estJ.rnatE! of thE! amount of wor·k i:.hey hope to do ·in the new fiscal year and the projects that u.d.l1 be undertakE!n, and, in order to allow for the proper pl.anning and organization to take place for earJ.y t:E! ndE!rin~J, they need to put the funding requirement or the estimated funding requiretnl;!nt . in th~~! IntE!r · i.rn SuppJ.y Bill.

Otherwise, they would have to put it in the budget which would not, pE!rhaps, be fi.nal ·i.Z(-'!d, as I have sai.d, until June, which is not abnormal, H1erefore, yo1.1 would m:iss th e opportuni.ty for early tE!ndE!rin~J tAJhi ch c:onsl'.:rt.lct·i.on cornpan:i .es out there have asked for on a constant bi'ls :l s . MR. CHATRMAN: The han. the of Opposti·::J.on . MR . WELLS: Thank yo1J, Mr·. Chair·rnan. How can the government determine No . 11 R576

the amount IAI'ithout f:ir·st. dectd"ing wh-.ich roads and totalling thE• estimates for each road? MR. CHAtRMAN: ·- . The hon. the President of the COIJnC-i.l.. MR. STMMS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I guess the answer to that question t s probably rather obvious. I mean, the government determines the amount based on what it feels it. is go:ing to be ablE! to spE!nd on road work. It is exactly that kind of a situation. MR. WELLS: -·-------How can we (inaudible)? MR. SIMMS: It wilJ. eventually. of course.

The prJorit.i.l'!!S IAiill be d~~term·tned out of that block amount of funding eventually for various projects, determined by the department and thE:Hl by Cabinet.. of course. That is the normal process. Now, the other items the hon. mE!mbet~ for BurgE!O Bay d' Espoir r·efE:~rr·~~d i·o T guf~ss my hHl minutes are probably up by now - I believe were relative to the Depat~tmE!nt of Public Works and maybe on another occasion or lf the hon. member wantE!d to repE!at the quest.:i .ons for· HH,~ M"i. n"i.st.:c-'!r of Public Works or something along those lines, I am sur·e he'!

IAJOI.tld be happy to address his questions. DR. TWOMEY : Mr. Chairman. MR . CHAIRMAN: ThE! hon . the M:i.nister of Public Works. DR. TWOMEY : Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. l..577 March 28, 1.988 Vol. XL t have been asked a nurnb~~r· of I bE•liE !VE', TIAd.ll-:i. ngc1 te a numbE!r of t.:hf~ .. int.t:.~r·:irn qUE!Stions. Last weed<, lhE:1 han. membc-'!r' for· asked rne to explain t:he pr·ogr·arnrnE!S :i.n budget for the coming year. The first question you asked about.: I~Jas thE:~ acqui:.dt.oi on of art.

As y o u k now , t hE! a c q u i s i U. o n of art. 'i.s t-o prowote l::he:~ sktl.l.s, t.aJ.c~nt:s, and portray the expertise of Newfoundland art:.-:i.sts Jn all fields. To do that, we thought. it. tnight be very pruch'I'Jt and imaginative if we had thrE!E! U.E•rs of approach so that they could feel comfortable in so approaching the saJ.e of theJr art i"lnd thr:dr talE!nts. To a c c o rn pl. oi s h t h c.iit IAJ C-'! h a v e a s I< '"' d the artists to get in touch with a j lH'Y.

The jury is compos od of an artist, someone skilled in cr·aft.s, the curator of the Memorial University museum, and I believe t:he EXE:1cut.-iVE! Director· of t:hE! Arts Council. They, in turn, inspect L h e a r· t:. a n d d c-'! t C:H' 1n i n ~~ h o IAI i t shouJ.d bE! purchaSE!d or· di.splayE!d. The"i.r r·~1COITIITHHldat.:-Lon -Ls s~Hlt t.o a group known as the procurement g r· o 1.1 p or· co rnrni. t: 1:: tc! ''~ . T h (~ y cons :.i. s t of threE! pE!OplE!. OnE! :i.s iHl ar·+ .. i.st:, anot:hE!r -.i.s a 1nc,1rnbc,~1" of t:h~O!

DepartmE!nt of Pub1ic Works and SE:1r•v'i.c~~s. and the 1:-.h·i.r·d js a member of the Department of Cul.l:ure. So aft:c,~r goj. ng thr·o119h these tiers, we pUinchase Uw art. The amount of money that has beE!n dedicated ln the past few years amounts to the sum of roughly $100,000. You also asked the amount of money that was spent in the sculpture on t: hE! 1 awn at the b a c k o f UlE! WE! s t Block. That, I bel.iE!Ve is ca11ed The Breaching Whale. I hope I have my tc,1rrn·i.nology corrc,1c t. That was designed by a man who is No. 11. R5'7'7

skillE!d in sculpture and fabr·i.cati on. belieVE!, of cover(~d by money that $27,500. It ts made, I a steal form and is wood. The:~ amount of was spent on that was One of the other questions that you asked was about soundproofing in ·t.:he West Block. Soundproofi.ng, I bE:~lieVE!, all over the world is an inexact science. I believe that thE! skills cannot be passed on -i.n tE!Xtbook form. It ·is, in a form, art and abOVE! all you have t o t a k e y o u r· c h a n c <->. lAd t h d e s t. "i. n y and hope that at the conclusion of your b1ri.l.rHng t:hal~ you IALil.J. have perfect acoustics.

T was a little perplexed when I oi. n q 1.ri. r· <,H:l abo u 1: l:ITi. s in d r->. t a i.J. . But then it occurred to me that some of the,~ notable places .i.n l:hC::~ world that are noted for their S 0 I J r1 d a n d h a V 1':~ a h i 9 h p r• 0 f :i.l. (;! 'i. 11 national and international literai:IH'e have had t.:he"i. r troublE:~s likewise. One that I will mention that was prepared with extreme caution and built to many specificaU.ons IAJas the Thomson Centre in Toronto.

I believe there were costs and costs, one heapE!d upon the other, to achiE!VE! that special. degree of rE!productJ.on of sound and language in all of its forms. The other one that I had read about, as all you have donE!, is one of the r<:Hnar•kabl<c~ IAJOndC,H'S Of Australia; it is kno1.un as thE! Opera House. Tt i.s c:ited, as you know, in thE! bay and has a peculiar art form that i s most at.tr·active. This is onE! of thE! wond<·H'S of t:hat: p;•unt:·i.ciJliH' nat .. ion in Sydney, Australia.

Over the yc->.ars "i.t has cosl".( :!d rn"i.l.l.Jons and millions of Australian dollars, and r bel i eve its "i.nfancy they had some trouble IAJith ti1E! acoustics. L578 March 2 8 , 1 9 8 8 Vol XL It is now cJ.aimE!d internationally as one of the ideal places in which to listE!n to art in a11 of J ts for·rn s . Both of you also asked how we I.I.Jould explain our budgE!t . To nw tt IAJas rather cornplex, but I 1.1.Ji.Jl try a~d simplify it to the best of rny ability. If you compare it with the figures of last YE!ar, you tAJ-:i.J.l. f:ind that. ·it is not as largE!.

We have bE!(:1n parsimonious and we have tried to rneet the expe!ctations. I think you, hon. Sir, d:i.d ask if ct quar·t .e r·J.y amount wo1Jld correspond t:o thE! ti.I.Je1VE! rnont..h p e ,~ "i. o d . r t: h .. i. n k IAJ i t.: h j n a f e IAJ perce!ntage pcdnts I I.I.Jou1d SclY, yes . I IAJO ul d s ;;\ y c ('!I" l:: a :i. n l. y not more than five in our current account- .. TI·H:! t.ot .aJ. amount . for· our current account is $9.22 million. Mf~ . GILBERT: Is it $9.2 rn:i.l.l."i.on out of Tnt.or·i.rn Supply for Current Account? DR .

TWOMEY: In breakJ.ng that down we have broken it down into Alterations, $4.187 tni.ll:i .on; I am not ending up with thE! hundrE!ds; DE•VE!loprnE!nt, $3.520 rn :il.l.i.on; L~>.aSE!d Accommodations, $100,000; Irnpr·ovement to Land and Property, $1 million roughly; Reality Ser·v·i.ces, $35,000; Advanc~~d Planning, $20,000; and C.A. Pippy Par•k, $352,000. I th:ink that. ail of you men are knowledgeable 0 n01.19 h to k nOIAJ that. IAJB hau () d V (H'Y high payroll. We have roughly 600 p<-'!opJ.r,~ on our· p(;!r·rnanc.;!nt: st.aff.

We have to rnE!E!t that: and we haVE! to lrtt~C'!t all of thr'! ongoJ .nq (,1Xpl~!rlS(~S within the three month period . You m:i.ght ask what: those E!XpE!I'lSE!S ar•(:!? I haU(:' l'ldln<'!d t:hnse. On Capital Account we haVE! askE!d for No. 1.1 RS78

a much larger amount. I beliE!Ve i r ·is $2S, 689,000. Yo11 wJ.'11 f"i.nd that that is not a very high ftg1Jre IAJhon t:I·H,~ Budgwt. comt=!s ciOIAJn tomorr·ot..v. We haVE! not grabbE!d a lot and IAJE:~ hi\\VE:~ tri.(:!d to bf~ careful in our rE!quest for monE!Y. As you know Cl.trr'E!nt. Account: is much different in the Department of Publ.ic Works and Serv i ces because we are responsible for rn<:-1ny t.h-i.ngs l::hat are ongo'i.ng for· the whole twelve month period. When IAJB lease propc;!ri ".y, IAJ(,~ have to have the amount of money available to cover· that lc->.ase for· a tt.~.JelVE! month period.

Also, when we takE! into consideration the other bills and responsibilities we haVE!, for example, t.elii.~phone services, IAJC->. have to haVE! enough to cover that for a twelve month peri.od. Heat.: and light in all its forms, according to the Financial Administration Act, we have to have money in our Department to cover these expE!nditures during the coming yc->.ar. Any more q1Je s tions, gc,nlt lE:~me~n? MR. WELI.S: ·o{d I u'rldE!rstand thE! han. Minister to say $25 mill i on was for capital? DR. TWOMEY: That. "i. s cor·rc,~ c 1: . MR. WELI ..

S: Wm.tld tFe hon. what. t.hc1t: $2~) Minister tell us million is For? Surely hE: cannot E:xpect tht:: HousE: to say YE!S, yc)IJ can have the $/.5 million with no indication of what it is for. DR. TWOMEY : With great pleasure, Sir . I will deal it here and there bE!Cause it. would be impossible to cover all the points and I will L.579 March 28, 1988 Uol XL pick them ad lib and not sc:!lect t- he !T! "i. n any or· For· rn 1.•.1 hats or::~ v E• r .

If there are othE!r quest:i.ons you IAJO IJ 1. cl IAJa n t: 1:: o as k a f t.:c'! l~t.~.Ja r d s , I would be onJ.y too pJ E!aSE!d to c om p l y tAr:i. 1".: h y o u r r· e q 1.1 e s t . (::ap "i.tal Account:s Al+:e~r·ai-·. · ions to E!XisUng faciliU.E!S, for instancE!, IJ.JC;! h<:~uc->. ask IHldHr ·i.ni-.E!I".im supply $431,000 aJ.J.ocatE!d to lJfe safE!ty :impr·ovHtnent.s and acCE!SS-I.boiJ.J.ty and unallocated $50,000. Alteration to existing faciJ.i tiE!S: I wilJ. give you thl':~ major onc;!s. I can give you SOIFH':! of the smaller ones.

East and Wc,~st W.:i.ng, t.ot~.HH'S sect:ion, $20,000 interim supply, and maj ot" I~C'!novat'.ions to t.hi .s building itself, $1.4 milJ.ion. Total cost: of renovations for this building is $20 point something million and that has bE!en ongcd.ng for a nutnbE•r of years; to date I beJ.ieve we have spent. $8 mi. IIi. on ; so t: hat :i. s roughly $12 million more to be spent. -i.n upgr·ading and rc~novat.Jon of this building. T h e We s t B 1 o c k -- a J. t E! r· a U . o n s f o r· full hr,~-Lght. part.:i.l'.·oi.ons, l::hi'.tt is one question that I did not answer ~) "i. r , T.

IAJ.i ll co 1n c,~ b a c k , $ :1. 0 0 , 0 0 0 . Sir Richard Squires Building, Co r· n ~~ r' 8 r o o k , a s p r· -L n k l CH' s y s b'! m , $90,000, plus $200 actuaJ.J.y. Uolce communi.cat i on upgrading in the Sir Richard Squires BuiJ.ding $3/.,000. Occ1Jpal".'i.onal Heal.t.:h and Safet:y for various buildings, $25,000. Now there are var·iotJs amounts h~;!re for different buildings, one of them 25 anoth~?.r 25, a ~)0, cont:ing(!ncy funds for capitaJ. projE!Ct. t:ransfE!r $100,000. A business information presume that is in No. 11 CE!nl:rE!, I Labrador, R579

$10,000. Modification Lo the veteri.nar·y laboratory, $47,600. Grand Falls, Mai~1 Depot, install. an oil separator, $3,000 . Life safety and occupational health and safety, another $30,000. Come by Chance HospH· .al demolition, $45,000. Upgrading of the Arts and Ct~lture Centre, Corner 8 rook, $42, 000. I believe for the same one, life safety and accessibility, $20,000. The-?. NetAJman Btd.l.d"ing interior renovations and fitting l~p. $50,000. The C~bot Institute, St. net.u hE!ating boiler in Road, Campus, $175,000 . John 1 s, Topsail The Cons l: r.'tbul.ar·y but ld"ing , . S-1: .

John 1 s, the construction of an emE:~rg en c y ex ·i. t fr·orn dar· k room, $20,000 . The Fisher Institute of Applied Ar·t. and Technology, Cor·ner· Br·ool<, life safety, occupational health and safety, $30,000. Community Coll.ege facilities, college and community implernent.ation essential alterations, programmes, $700,000. Happy Val.ley Goose Bay, alterations to the ~resent office, $30,000, life-?. safe-?.t.y and occupational health safety, $40,000. MR. WELI..S: The figurE! thE! for· CommiJn i t:y $700,000? MR.

CHATRMAN: minis"te!r Colleges, LS80 March 28, 1988 TnE!nU.oned IAJr'l S "l l: Vol XL The hon . th(,~ M i. n·i. s i·.e;!r' of Pub l ic Works . DR . TWOMEY : The Motor Vehicle Registration off j_ c e,, b tri.l d t n g "i n M o u n t Pea r 1 , $670,000. Some money for the Depart~ent of Social Services Youth Correction facility $200,000 fotn pJ.ann'ing. The development of new facility, Health, J.ong·-tE!r'm car(~ factlit.y, $1 million.

I _pr·esurne i.t Depart .ITIE!nt cons r.r·ucti.on $200,000. -L s of plann ·Jng of a netAJ for thE• JustiCE!, court., ThE!re is anothE!r' $40 I 000 I onE! is f o r' t·. h e U n i. f i. l:! d F a rn :i. 1. y C o t ~ r t. , a n d the other js Grand Fa l ls r:ourt·· .house,1, $'1-0,000. Const.clbuJ.ar·y Building, I bE!lieve in CornE!r R r· o o !< , f u r· rd. t: 11 r c,~ a n d l:1 q tri p rn c~ n t , $20,000. Fisheries and MarinE!

InsU.tutE!, development: of nelAJ facilities, Institute of Fisheries, to complete the construction, $50,000, and tht':1 deVE!10pn1E!nt oF a n eiAJ fa c 'i.l :i. t y • $ 3 . 5 m:i 11 :i. on . MR. W . ___ CA RTJ_R : Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the for Twillingate . MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Chairman, I arn only going to take,~ a rninut.c->.. r not.ic~'!d the mj.nister, Mr.

Chairmi.<tn, J.n giving the brc,~akdown of t:.hE~ l:~xpendJ.t.ut"('!S proposed through IntE!rirn SuppJ.y, did rnE:!nl".""i.on, I be,~l.-i.e'!V('! he;! said, $20 million for improvements to Confe,~dc,1r'c\t.·"i.on Builcl"i.ng and i·:hat: ~~8 million have already been spent. 1 lAlonde~, Mr. Chairmari, can the No. 1.1 R~.>8o

minister tel.l l:.h.:~ hous(::J if any of that $8 million spent to date includes any renovations or imp r o v E!ln E! n t s t o t: h e b u i 1 d i n g t: h a t would eventually lead to the moving of this Legislature dot~.msta:irs to UH'! ma"in floor·, and if it not, I am wonde!ring if thE! mi.nish~r has g·i.ven ~~ny thought.

h) maybe having a feasibility study und.:~rt:~lken, l.ooktng ·i.nl:o the possibility maybe of re--activating Col.oni.al Bui.ldlng as l:.he se<!l"l: of thE! Legislature. I t s .::1 E! m s t o rn r-~ ·i f 1: h e y a r e g o i. n g to be spending many millions of dollars i.rnprovtng, or at l(~ast pr·oviding a faciJ.ity on the rnatn floor, tAJould i.t bE:1 possi.bl.e, for· example, with the stmilar expPnditur'<'! rnaybr:1 to rehabilitate the old seat of thE! Legislature, something which I beli.eve has a far greater historic value than Confederation Building.

The old Colonial Bu:ild "i. ng, of course, is reeks of history and tradition, Mr .. chairman, and seems to me would make an excellent place for th-Ls Lt::Jg"i.slature t:o re-establish.

I would seriously ask LhH mtrdst:er·, ""i.f rnorH:!y has not already been expended on the pt~ovis-ion of a new I..E:~g:i.sl.at:i.vc,1 Assembly Chamber on the main floor of thi.s b1l.i.l.d-Lng, IAJoul.d h('! th<;!n maybe giVE! somE! thought to having c <:! r· l:: <:t i n ~~ n g -:i. n e c,1 r· i. n g o r· arc hi tecturaJ. studies undertaken with a vi ew to do""i.ng something rf:1ally rnEH~ningful, and that is to, maybe, rehabilitate the old Colonial Building as a seat of the L..c,~gislat.tu·e. Mr.

Chairman, while 1 have the floor, I was interested in the minister 1 s reply to our question concerning the cost of producing the whale that now adorns the grounds of the new Confederation L581 Mar· c h 2 8 , 1 9 8 8 Vol XL Bu i lding Extensi.on . He said, I bel.i.eve, t t cost $27,500. That is for haJ.f a w h a 1. (.;! , t: h ~~ u p p E! r h a 1 F o f a Lr.J h a 1 e . I ·wonder will the minister now i::h<:~n g oi V('! us an under·t.ak·.ing that b~!fore he commissions thE! reproduction of the bottom halF that he - AN HON. MEMBER: The bol:·.t:otn half .i.s subrnE!r'g<;!d. MR. W.

CARTER: Or is j 1:. alr·<,~ady -; n thE! ·gro1a1d? Is that whale going to gro1.1.J? rJ! a y b ,,1 t h a 1.: tAJ h a J. t1 h a s b <'! t':! n p 1 a n t. (:. d the,re, Mr. Chairman. Maybe :i.t. :.i.s only r.1 mat:.t<;!r' of t:.im('!. Wtt.h certain materiaJ.s, maybe that t.o~JhaJ.C:~ u.ri.ll gr·ow. I tJJant. to make the point, Mr. Cha:i.rrnan -·and I am certainly not aga:i.nst. art.

I suppose i.t. is all a part of life and necessary - but Jt. se~~ms to me that :in a Province where we have so many wants and so many people living under conditions that are not accepl:.ablt~, thc-d::- that $27, 1:100 couJ.d have been better spent on ot:h<.;!r' rnor·~~ lAJOrt:hy pr·oj <c~c l.:s. Maybe I am treating the matter rather l "i.g ht.J. y, but: c er t-.a-L nl. y r IAJoul.d ask MR. MORGAN : ( I n a 1.1 d :i. b l. (:~ ) o"' g a -j_ n s [·: a r· 1:. IAJO r k . MR. W. CARTFR: I am nc,t at all against: c~rt~ but-. ·."i.t s<:~(:~rns 1--.o rn~~ 'l:.hai-: that $2'7, 1;oo could have bee:'n better· spent.

Again I ask if he is going .to commission the production of the l.OIAJer· part of l::hat. whale t:hat maybe hE! wouJ.d give us sorne :l.d~:!a as to what. he plans on spending on that project.. MR. · CHAIRMAN: No. 11 I~ 1) 81

The hon . tl'w Min:iste!r of PubJ.ic Works. DR. TWOMEY : Yhank you, Mr. Chairman. When you mE!ntioned that I shouJ.d give-:! thought and consJder·at.:i.on, it occurred to mE! that maybe in that fight at Bi~laclava, or somr:11J.Jhere else, thE! pOE!t wrote: 1 Theirs not to reason IAJhy. 1 As Minister of Public Works and Services, I am grateful that I came into a de-?.part .ment .i.n Lllhi.ch I did not have to adjudicate the art and the talent of the'! ar·t.tst · that is to be bought and purchased by Uds governrnE !nt for t:he,' pr:1opJ.e of Net.rJf ou ndla nd .

I cannot tell you e:Hn e r g .. i. n g IAI h a l. e subme!rged IAJhaJ.E!. or I the curios i ty ~o is an if this 'i.f -i.f: have look i. s i:\ not hac! for thA tail. HoiAJeVE!r, it is thE!rE!, as many pieces of ~rt Rre ln th i s world. I believe Tou l..ot~se-Lautr·ec has b('!(:1n cr·c-?.di. i".e:1d with saying, 1 Art is in the eye of t. h E:1 b E! h o 1 cl c;! r . 1 I k n o tAl h e,1 popularized the statement, and I cannot te;!l1 yot~ whE!t:hr:1r' hr:1 originally innovated :it or if hE! was a p 1 a g J. a r· 'i. s t .

I a rn v e-:! r y gratefuJ. that I am not put in that position as I could not be a judge of that parU . cuJ.ar art or art in any form. You asked one other quest.i .on last week which occurred to me. MR. W. CARTER: The Leg i s 1 a t.lH' e . DR. TWOMEY: The figure I gave m:i.J.l.ion. thcd· . is for Block. The House• lt.:SE!'lf ·i.s r·oughly you. $8. 3 thE! Nort.:h('!Y'n of Assembly abottl ·. $6. 5 million. That is thE! HOUSE! of I: 58?. Mar· c h 2 8 • 1. 9 B 8 Uol XI..

AssE!rnbly with all thE! offices for l:hr;! el.(-?.r:·l".r.:•d IIIEliTibc;!r's of Lhc,l House and for the staff that supports the HousE:~ . .l have not: chE•ckud, sj.ncE! I have corne into Uds offi.ce, the~ dc~tr::dl.s of, I bPl:i.eve, a report that was cornmtss:i.onE!d some time ago before that decision was madE!. I shouJ.d t.E!J.l yc1u and alJ. t.he members of the House of Assembly that I am not absolutE!ly sure of t.hr:1 details of that report. But, to my knowJ.edgE! and from memory.

I would gather t:hc~t. they gave consideration to expanding this building to meet thE!- modE!rn rE!quirernonts of a HouSE! of Assc,Hnbly i.n this day, in this agE! and into thE! futurE! and I bel ·i.e vE:1 t:ha t. the cost t~J('l"I:O horrE! ndou s . It wouJ.d be v er· y diff"i.cult t:o d1~pli.cab'! the architecture that is, I think, st.: r·i.k ·tng i'lnd obvi .ous at thts particular time. I will check J.nl:o i. r. ;:~nd i.f I CtHl I tJ.dll gcd:. a rE!port back to you as qu:i .ckly as is possJble. I bel.ieue 'it has beE!n done, Sir, but I IAJ:i.J.l VE!rify t.h~~ fact:. MR.

CHAIRMAN: ThE! hon. the rnerrtbE!r for BurgHo - B cl y d 1 E s p o .i. r· . MR. GILBERT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was 1 is teni ng to thE! nd nj. s tE!r. He is givjng some grE!at explanations here and it is keepJ.nq e-:!VI.':~rybody awake~ here. for sure. ThE!r arc::' some setnious things that also have to be considered. In his capjtal account he sai.d there was SOITIE!thing OVE!r $25 rn:i.J.J.ion. Thr:1 amo11nt·. of $311- rn:.ill.:ion hC'! "i.s asking us to approVE!, and out oF i t he says $2 S . 2 rrrll.l ton ·i. s cap :i. t. a 1 ac coun•t. DR. TWOMEY : No. 1.1

$25 . 689 million . MR. GILBERT: Alr·ight, $25.689 million, but out of that, in rough figures he gave us an explanation for $8.8 million of that so there is again somewhere :i.n the v-i.cini.ty of $17 million that we have not had any explanat.i.on for· soT wondE!t' :i.f he tAJould possibly like to give us a run down of what the other $17 million is for in his capital account? MR. CHATRMAN: The hon . thE! Minister of Public Works. DR. TWOMFY: ·w h e-ii-i--cfid r i s E! to s pea k I s aid I IAJOU l.d tau c h them t.o~d thou L~ s (,11. (:1 c t'.ion and I re1ad.

I think I can ge1t it b u t i t tAJi.l 1 t a k (,1 me s orne t: :i rn e to have all the details ~o present to you on paper, but I have no objection in detailing many of them, as I have detailed now. MR. WELLS: Mr-:-chafrman . MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the L<.;! ad e r· of Opposi.tion . MR. WELLS : Mr. Chair1nan, we do not n(:1E!!~ I:: he details. Is therE! anyHd ng out of the or·d-i.ndry thai: l::h~'! JnJnoi.si ... E!Y' is doi.ng? When hE! providE!S us 1.o~Ji th fl cl V -i. C lc1 l: h i:'t t. t. h ~'!

Y' r,1 :i. s i'l b 0 1.1 t: $ /. ~) million on capital and he runs t h r o 1.1 g h <:~ fa i r· 1 y 1. ~=! n g 1:'. h y 1 i. s t a n d it covers $8.8 million, is the1re any t:. h 'i. n g llld j or· i. n v o 1. v (;! d i. n thE'! other $16 million? We do not need to haVE! a lisl~. fr·orn Lh<'! rn 'i. n"i.s t E!Y' of what hE! is going to do 1..1dth $20,000 for this and $30,000 for that, if hE! has a rrd.sCE!lJ.aneous 1 i. s t of s ma 11 (.;! r· i b11n s t: hat tot. a l $3, $4· or $5 million.

We can L.583 March 28, 1988 Vol XL understand that, but WE! just. ne!ed t:o knoi•J what. the major expendi.t.uro is going to be for and, with that advice from the minister of the major items, I am surE! that Uw rnernber·s on Ud.s s:i.de I."Jould bE• happy to give him approval for his Interim Supply on Lhe basis of h:i.s establishing that. While I arn on my fE!E!t, 1..\Jould thE! 1rr.i.n"i.s·h;!r, llJP. do not nefHi l:.o consider it today because it is n o 1·: :i. n t h ~~ T n 1-. (;! r· L rn ~; u p p l. y v o t (=! , but on thE! question dealing 1..1d.th t. h e C o J. o n J. "' J. 13 1.1 :i.

J. d "i. n g d n d :i. t s possible future USE! as thE! House of Asse:Hnbly, IAJOLild t:.h~~ govcH'rHn~'!l'lt. consider an all party commit:l:ee to cons-Lder that? Tt 'is worth considE!ring. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the Mi.n:ish~r of Fi.nc::tnc1:>.. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Chairman, just fo1n a nJOITIE!nt, on the same issue, the han.

Leader of the Opposition wilJ. recall that. last week in dealing wil:h thes6 same Estimates I did give him some numbers but I will just quickly go through some of the big ones again becausc,1 what I did for him, without dealing with the capital at all, but just on CIJrln!Hlt account·, I outJ.inE!d whE!rE! some $16 rn:i.l.l. .. ion of that -L s, IAJhoi.ch IAJOtJld appE!ar, because his question to rne a few days ago was why are we asking for $34 or $35 rn:i.:l1'.ion notAl Vc.;!Y'SI.IS $1J.3 or· $1.~4· m-i.l.l.jon -L n t:ot:dl last year. 1 triE!d to p:ick out s o 1 n r-~ (,1 x '1". r· a o r d t n a r· y :-i. t. c,1 rn s .

T d i. d not touch thE! capitaJ.. The hon. ge:Hltl.<.;!man has tallu:!t:f about.: $8 or ~>10 m:LJ.lion in cap:it.al, I Udnk, l.hc3.'l.: J s i.n Int.(-:~r'~i 1n Supply. Jus·t in currE!nt arE!aS, I Jnd:i .cate•d thc:d: t)1e,1re:1 IAJas a $4· rn--i.J.l.jon :.i.t.em l.o~Jhich deaJ.s with cont~acts for garbage collection, cleaning and snow c1E!aring. No. 11 I~ 58 3

MR. WELLS : W h a t c o n s t: -1. 1: u -1-: E! $ 1.: h H $ 2 ~i tn :i J l. ··i on t41ht~!n the minister gaVE! us $8.8 ttti.l.l. i. on? T I'H'! r c,~ m1.1 s !-: I: H,~ s o mn o t: h c-H' major itern . MR. WINDSOR : :r just IAJanl:'.c,~d Lo r·c~rnind you that ·. there is $16 million that I outl.-t.ned her·e t:hal arc-?. Ltt1tJsu;~J. numbers, but the current and capital at $43 mi.lli.on tAJOtJld be everything. The $43 or $44 million is current and capital combined so t.he hon. gentlE!rnan has outlined some $12 or $15 mi.ll:i .on i ·n capita 1 . I have o u t.l in e d $ 16 million .

So that. is $23 million or $24 million of the $34 rniJ.lion. So mos 1: of the balance is just straightforward ongojng. MR. WELLS : Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAT.RMAN: The han . the of t ·he Oppos i.t·i .on . MR. WELLS : The minister told us earJ.ier this afh:~rnoon thr.·'lt: thE!r·c-:~ tAJr.ls $2.5 . 6 million on capital account. He 1 i. s t e r.t out s om t'! 'i. t c'!l·n s , and ' I·. h r:~ y total approximately $8.8 million. We just l.i. kH to know , l:hc-:~rc-:~ mu s t. be some major items that total $16 miJ.l i on that he is a s king for Interim Supply for.

In fairness the Opposi .tion should know, if they are to say yes, it is okay to spend the public money for that purpose . They should know generaJ.J.y, tAJi.t.hou-t gett.ing :into thE! details of $5,000, $10,000 or $30,000 items. Th~~ re must. be some,~ maj0r matters _that totaJ. $16 rni.llion . DR . TWOMEY : Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: I. ~.)B4 Mar· d1 2 8, 19 B B Vol XI. · The hon. thE! M'.inist.E!r of Public Work s and S erv i ces . DR . TWOMEY : .If ... _i0uw"i11 g :i v E! !TIE! a f E!IAJ rn:i. nut: E! s I T I~Ji.ll go OV('! r' rh c,' SE! for·ms and I wiLl rE!port from thE! rn<:Ajot~ ones.

I s a J. d l tAd 11. go 1:. h r C)IJ g h t~Ji. t: h o u t. selE!Ction thE! last timE! . I w:.i.J.l go through now a nd you want in millions and so on . MR. WELLS : Mr . Chairman . MR . CHAIRMAN: ThE! hon. the of th E! Opposition . MR. WELLS : I thank the minister a nd t hat wJ. l l be'! f ·'i.nH, S"l r. MR . SIMMONS : Mr . Chair·rnan . MR. CHAIRMAN: Thr:~ han. i':ht,~ HIC-?.ITib~: !r fot~ FotntunE! - Hermitage. - MR. SIMMONS : Mr . ChaJ .r·rnan, J tJnc:IE!r· st-.c::tnd that: the gentJ.eman for Plea s antville (Mr. D:-i.nn), t:hf'! M.in-:i.sl : E!r' of Mint:!s is maybE! within E!arshot. He rE! WE! are . I k nt:>.

IAJ he-:~ tAli'\ s J n I:. he precincts of the House s omewhere and I WOLtl.d l'ik e tha n k h:irn for coming back into the Chamber. I wonder if he would just t akE! a minute to appr i. se the C o rmn i. tt. et~ o f any ite ms in t he $2. 67 1 mi l lion r e qu ested un der the umb r ella of his p o r tfoli o . Wh ethe r he would a ppr ise the House of an y

part ic ul a r ite ms t hat h e feels the attentio n of he Committee ought t.o bE! dr·awn to. I rE! a1i7.E:~ we w:i11 hav~~ a ful1~H· opportunit ·y dtJr:ing the budget debate and e s timat e 1 s pr·ocHdure, btJt: can he,~ "i.dC'!nt"i.fy any particular it:E!Ins that hE! ought to No. 11 RSB4

flag at this particular time other than fairly routine expenditures for thE! CommitteE!? AJ.so. in t.h(:! process. IAJOuld hc::1 :indical:e IAJhat i.s the breakdown as between capital and current? MR. DINN: Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the MinJ.s l:er of Mi.rH:1S . MR. DTNN: Mr'. Chairman, we do not have any cap .. i l:al 1 i sl':E!d ·in Tntc->.r··lm SuppJ y, no·t a penney. The monE!Y that is t.hercc1, l::i'H"! $2,671,200, .i.s basically administration. for the o p <.;! r' a 1-. ·i o n o f t. h e D <~ p d r· t m r.~ n t. o F Mines for about a quarter of thE!

Bl.iclg<.;!i":, not. <'!xact.l.y f.l ql.li'H't:f~r. blj[·: about a quarter of the budgE!t. I can give the complete breakdown if the han. member wants it. It wiJ.l probably Lake about five minul:es. Min:i.ster' s OffJcc->., Salar·J.es and Other If hon. members want to get into the;! other· I can get into that as welJ. but SaJ.aries $43,300; Other Expenditures, $1.4-,600, for a total of $57,900.

Exectjtive Suppor·t.. $46,400; Other· ExpenditurE!S, $11,4-00; any onE! of those, by the IAiiilY. that T am giving out now, $11,400, for t:1xample, can be brol<en clown almost.: on a by dollar basis; $57,800, t: hat i. s Ex<.;! cut ·i. v e S 1.1 p p or l ; Admtnistrati.ve Support. Salaries $65,000; Othc:H' ExpE!ndtttH'OS, $1.01,300 for cc~ total of $166,800. rhe t·.otml. by i:h('! 1Ali:-1y, :i.f YOU add up all thE:1 totals, it. will comE! to l:.h<c1 $2 1 671., ;;>,()().

Administration in Development Division Department, $62,000 to $28,000, approximately, c,1xp<;!ndoitures, and therefore for that; L585 - Mar· c h 2 8, 19 8 8 M-i. n c,1 r' a l of thE! sal.<H'':i.~1s; for othc::~r $90,200 RE!gional V crl X I. • , . Mapping, $223,800 salarjes; $144,200 for other expenditures; for a total of $368,000; Geocht::1rnistry, $204, 700; ot:l1€~r expenditures, $183,600, for a total of $388,300; Mineral Deposits $127,900; Salaries $62, 100; other expenditures, $190,000 total; Environmental Geology, $106,002; for· salari.es $53,300, and other expenditures, and total $161., OOS.

Ptlbl.J . cat.i.ons and Information, $181,900; tha't is salaries; other expenditures $74,000 for a total of $25S,900; Aduri.rd s l:.r·a i~ ·l on ::i. n 1:: he Mi. ne ra 1 lands division. salaries $5,000; o t. i'HH' <:1 x ~>C->. n d i. t I. II" ('! s $ 1. 8 , ? 0 0 ; 1:". o t a 1. $23,200; MinliH'al Rights. $4-2,000; salaries $3,300, ol:".her expenditures for a tala] ·of $1.1· 5 • 3 0 0 . q u <HT y r"' a t e r' t a 1 s , l:: h i"' t is the

section now of lhe Department, $45,200; salaries, $10,100 other expE!ndituJ~E!S, total of $S 5 , 3 00; Ad m:i n t s L r' a l:. :i. on Minos Management, $28,005; salaries $3,800, other ~Z~xp<;!ndj.t:llres, suppli~s et cetera. $32,300 total; Engineering Analysis, salaries $61,000, other expenditures $45,000, total $106,000. Mineral Policy and Project Analysis dtviston, $110,000 salaries, $562,700 other <'! x p e n d i t u r e s , f o r' a f·. o l:. a 1 of $672,700. If thE! hon. member addE!d up a11 UH.;! t.ot.al.s th~Hl, h(:1 IAJOul.d corne up with $2,671,600.

If thE! hon. rrH:11Tlb e:11n l1li~Hl h> a I:H' P a k d OIAJI'l of any one of those items, or all of t·.h~:!rn, 1~1e hi:·1Vr'! got: lot.s of t.:irne, he can have that. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Cha:Lr·rnan . MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Fortune-Hermitage. No. 11 ITIE!ITib E! r for' R585

MR. SIMMONS : I thank the Mtntst<;!r' and I :i.nfc,~r from hjs response that there is not:.h ing u nus Lie:·' l. t hi'.l t ~H'! I~Jo1 . 1l.d t.•Jr.lnt. to flag and hE! indicates by a nod t. h ~~ I ~ UJC,~ r e ""i. s n o 1-. • T wan! ·: l:o p1Ji: l:.h<-?. sr;~rnc'! sor·i ·: of question to my friend from Le1.1Ji.sport .e, i.f t ma y . W:i.l.l h1~ , J n r es pect of the $3 . 2 m i ll io n IJJhich hi.s Depa r l:ro<:Hli: r'<.-'lq i Je~