Manitoba Hansard — 31 May 1993 (Sitting 73B, 35th Legislature, 4th Session)

35-4-73b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Third Session -T hirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 42 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XLII No. 738 - 8 p.m., MONDAY, MAY 31, 1993 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACOUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDL AY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GIL LESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LA THLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALP INE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROGAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYLYCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant Vacant CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin- Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur- Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Crescentwood Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Rin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River Rossmere Rupertsland PARTY.

Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

3590 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, May 31, 1993 The House met at 8 p.m. ORDE RS OF THE DAY (continued) COMMITTEE OF SUPP LY (Concurrent Sections) EDUCATION AND TRAINING Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Good evening. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. The comm ittee will be resuming consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Education and Training. When the comm ittee last sat it had been considering item 2.(a )(1 ) on page 35. Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, when we were last together, the critic from the NDP had asked me to give some information regarding some highlights and some direction which we are pursuing in this area of Program Development and Support Services. I spoke before the break about a consu ltative process with program directors, and the ADM of this division is also having open discussions with staff members who would like to be involved. We look for that to be as many as possible and preferably all. These discussions are focusing on services which we provide, things that we are doing well and things that we can improve upon.

Immediately following these sessions the ADM is meeting with major educational organizations to get their input and their ideas on what type of leadership and services they would like to see the department provide. All of this input will help us move toward educational reform. *

(2005) This division will also be very much involved in the Education Innovation Forum which we have been speaking of and which is planned for the fall. Some of the issues that are currently being examined and will be followed up upon for further discussion through the foru m are things like parental involvement, violence and aggression in schools, teacher training, interdepartm ental co-ordination of services, program and student asses sm ent, curriculum design and devel opment process.

The division is also involved in the various initiatives across the department and will continue to build on the existing programs and the practices that have demons trated positive results in the education system. To summarize then, allow me to highlight the sign ificant activities that each of the cu rrent branches are involved in. First of all, in the curricu lum area, developing curriculum guides and related support materials for Manitoba schools with a special emphasis at present on those areas identified in the High School Review involves working with about 40 comm ittees of teachers.

Major curriculum revisions cu rrently unde rway are mathematics in the K through Senior 2 area; science in the K through Senior 1 ; art, Senior 1 ; business educ ation, Seniors 1 through 4; and English language arts, Senior 3 and Senior 4. In additi on, to develop, disse minate and interpret the ind icators of student achievement to improve student eval ua tion pr acti ces and provide summative examinations for the final year of high school; also, worksh ops, courses, visitations are provided to improve teaching and learning relative to revised curricula.

The recently form ed interorgani zati onal curriculum advisory comm ittee will provide advice on the principles, goals and broad di rec tions to be followed in the deve lopment, implementation and assessment of the curricula K to 12. The comm ittee also provides a forum for the discussion of organizational perspectives on issues of curriculum and assessment and also to integrate relevant applications of technology. I also have further information on the area of native education, on initiatives of the Manitoba School for the Deaf, the Child Care and Develop ment Branch, the Instructional Resources Branch,

3591 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA May 31 , 19 93 our Distance Education and Technology Branch, the Student Support Branch. I am prepared to go over these now or to begin to answer some questions. Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Pe rhaps the minister would be willing to table that information. It would make it a lot easier for us to follow. I do not know whether she has copies of each of the highlights for each of the branches, but it would be helpful to go through those various branches.

However, in the meantime, we have the division admi nistration, I guess is what the minister has talked about generally in the first dissertation on this. I wa nted to ask the mi nis ter about the reorganization she talked about in this

section and talked about reorganization improvements and then went on to talk about curriculum improvement, database improvement, internal and external and a number of other areas. * (201 0) First of all, the total staff reduction in this reorganization, as the minister calls it, which is really a reduction in th�it is a downsizing of the division, about 79 staff. Is that correct? How much of a reduction is there in the managerial

section of staff? I notice for the present year, I believe there are 1 6-- 13 management-! just wanted to know what the managerial complement was for the previous year. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I wonder if the member could clarify. Are you speaking about managerial SYs in the whole of the division or for this line only, this appropriation only? Mr. Plohman: I am speaking about Program Development and Support Services, 1 6.2, in totality. Mrs. Vodrey: In looking at the whole of the division, there has been a reduction of two co-ordinators. Mr.

Plohman: Am I to assume from that answer that under managerial, on page 14 of the Supplementary Estimates, Program Development and Support Services, co-ordinators constitute management and therefore there were 15 the previous year and now there is 13 ? Is that the total management co ordinators? Mrs. Vodrey: That is correct. Mr. Plohman: Could the minister indicate in what area the co-ordinators were eliminated ? Mrs. Vodrey: One reduction of a co-ordinator for the High School Review and one reduction in Distance Education and Technology. Mr.

Plohman: Could the mini ster give us a breakdown of the other sections, the Professional/ Technical people? We have listed here 160 SYs, Professional/Technical. How many were there in that

section the previous year? Mrs. Vodrey: I know the member is referring to a global chart in the Supplementary Estimates. We have the details of the staffing information done by subappropriation as it is listed in the Estimates booklet, so we would be able to talk about it line by line. If the member would like a more detailed kind of information specifically at this point, then we would have to compile it. * (201 5) Mr. Plohman: I would like to get the compila tion of all of these sections.

I think it is rather, I guess, inconsistent that we would have information for the previous year in all cases, but on that table, we do not. So I think if the minister can get that information compiled as soon as possible, then I would like to have it. It would facilit ate the discussion about the priorities and the nature of the reductions and cuts. As well, the admin istrative support is 87.5, 87 and a half staff, and it would be important to note how many were reduced there as well from the previous year, so if the minister can give us that.

I notice that the total reduction in this branch for staff is nearly $3 million, and the total reduction for the division is about $3 million and then total reduc tion for the di vision considering all appropriations, not just staff, is just about $3 million too. So it would indic ate to me that almost all of the reductions have come from staff cuts. There is very little from program cuts other than the staff themselves here. So it is important for us to get an idea of what kind of staff are reduced. So as soon as the minister can get that, I would appreciate it. Mrs.

Vodrey: We will get that for tomor row afternoon and atlemptto give the comparison for the member. Other wis e , as we go through the subappropriations this evening as well, I will be prepared to talk about them. Mr. Plohman: Well, we are going to try to discuss most of the areas under Division Admin istration at least in a preliminary way because this Division Admini stra tion, I see, is responsible for

May 31 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 3592 implementing the stated objectives of the seven branches. So having taken on that noble task in Adminis tration in the (

a) secti on, I guess they are responsible for what happens in the whole area. It is interesting, but makes the job very difficult, I would suppose, to be responsible for everyone else's detailed work, but it involves all of these; Curricu lum, Native Education, Manitoba School for the Deaf and so on and so forth. So I want to, first of all, discuss with the minister some of her priorities for Curriculum Services from the admin istration's point of view. The minister has raised some of the points. Could the minister indicate what the status is of the Skills for Independent Living program?

Is that now fully implemented in the schools? Is it in a pilot status or where is it at? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, in Skills for Independent Living, the pilot for the course is complete. The implementation will begin for all schools in September '93. It is to be implemented as a full credit. Howeve r, it may be provided in two half-credit courses, so the total credit will be one but the actual provision of the course may be, accor ding to the school and their timetable, by two half-credit courses. They may be implemented at any year within the Seniors 1 through 4. Mr.

Plohman: It is to be started or at least half the course has to be taught in Senior 2? Is that correct? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, no, the choice is at any time between S1 and S4. •

(2020) Mr. Plohman: Do students who are already through any one of those years prior to September '93 have to also take one credit in the remaining two or one or three years? Is this only for new students starting in Senior 1 or Grade 9? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, this begins this September for students beginning Senior 2. Students who are past the Senior 2 year will be considered to have grandfath ered in this particular course. Mr. Plohman: Does this apply to all schools in the public edu cation system and private school system or just the public school system? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, it is students in all schools. Mr. Plohman: Can the mini ster indic ate the philosophy behind this course and the reason why it was given such high priority to be implemented within I guess a year or two years of the High School Review that was prepared by the previous minister, the Answering the Challenge? I notice Strategy 79 was the Skills for Independent Living. I am going to be asking the minister about the status of all of these recom mendations, these so-called strategies.

It would be interesting to see what the phi losophy was behin d Sk ills for Independent Living and the urgency for bringing it in and the need that was deemed to be there, that had to be addressed by this course, that it was made compu lsory. Mrs. Vodrey: This particular course, the content and modules within this particular course have flowed from the original Challenges & Changes report which was begun under the previous government. It was also noted in Answering the Challenge, which has been the most recent document.

There has been an identification through both of those reports of an importance to have a course which promotes critical skills needed by all students, for example, skills such as learning skills, career development, entrepreneurship, manage ment of time and financial resources. The pilot on this cour se was particul arly extensive, and there has been a great deal of feedback from students and from teachers, and they have found the course content to be extremely relevant.

In terms of the implementation, Answering the Challenge, the High School Review recommen dations have been implemented in a staged process, and starting September '93 was the year in that process to implement the Senior 2 courses. Mr. Plohman: Well, just as an aside, the minister might bring us up to date on whether the

schedule has been kept. I note that the minister mentions September '93 as the time when Senior 2 courses were to be implemented. If that is relevant, then how closely has the

schedule been adhered to for all rec ommendations in the time line that was given? Pardon me, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, really what I am asking is, is implementation behind

schedule and on average by how much? I am not at this point asking for each recommendation, each strategy, as to how far it is behind. •

(2025) 3593 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA May 31 , 19 93 Mrs. Vodrey: I unde rstand that originally there were some difficulties in terms of meeting the time lines, but from the time that the former Minister of Education, now Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkac h), made announcemen ts to the field regarding the times, and the field has been update d on a qu arterly basis regarding the dates of implementation, that I am informed that this has now all been on time. Mr. Plohman: Just to clarify, on time to the original

schedule or on time to the revised sche dule? Mrs. Vodrey: On time to the revised sche dule. Mr. Plohman: Getting back to the pilot of the Skills for Independent Living the minister said was extensive, what does that mean precisely? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, the pilot process included, first of all, a pilot in Year 1 or Senior 1, and that involved approximately a hundred schools. That was in fact one of the most extensive pilots that has been conducted.

There was feedback from that pilot where some schools Ind icated that Year 1 was perhaps not the most appropriate year, and then there was a further pilot to pilot the program in Year 2, Senior 2, with 50 schools. Following that, in 19 93, we have held consult ations regarding the course, and those consultations have been just completed. The consultations were held with the pilot teachers , with school administr ators, with the Chamber of Commerce, with labour, and all of the represen tatives from all sides have indi cated a positive response to this course. •

(2030) Mr. Plohman: Could the minister table a copy of the curriculum for this course? Mrs. Vodrey: We do not have four copies of the curric ulum today. We do have one copy of the curri culum. I would be pleased to table the rest tomorrow, at the next sitting. Mr. Plohman: Good. Thank you. When was the comm ittee established that drew up the curric ulum? Mrs. Vodrey: The comm ittee was est ablished in September of 19 90. Mr. Plohman: How many people were involved , and were they primarily teachers of Senior 1 or Senior 2 levels? Where were they from?

Perhaps the minister has a list of the people that particip ated in that committee. I mean, if the list is all in the cu rricu lum, contained in the-that would be sufficient. Mrs. Vodrey: The list is contained in the curriculum and it does list who the members were in terms of the steering committee. It lists them by their school division or their representative organization, such as the university, Brandon University, Assiniboine Communi ty College , Manitoba Education and Training, Chamber of Commerce. There is further representation from the commu nity colleges and various school divisions.

So when that is tabled, that will be available. Mr. Plohman: Another question on that, it seems that there was a lot of Involvement from outside the direct educational circl e. How many of the people on that comm ittee were educators, what percentage of the total? Mrs. Vodrey: Twenty of 21 were educators . Mr. Plohman: I thought the minister mentioned that there was Chamber of Commerce on there and some other groups. Was that the only one that was an exception or was the Chamber of Commerce rep also an educator? Mrs. Vodrey: I said 20 of 21 were educators.

The 21 st represented the Chamber of Commerce, but perhaps the member is confusing when I spoke about the most recent consu ltation process in which there was representation of educators and also the commu nity. Mr. Plohman: So following the initial work of the comm ittee to draw up the curric ulum, there was a process that involved consu ltation with the schools and also the commu nity there. ls the minister saying there were many other groups involved in critiquing what was developed? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, yes, at the end of the pilot year, the c ourse had been validated as an important area of studies, studied by a series of study groups. Within those study groups there was representation from the Winnipeg Chamber of Comm erce , from labour, parents, as well as educa tors. Mr. Plohman: Were there substantive changes made to the curricu lum as a result of that process? Mrs. Vodrey: None of the changes have been substantive. The changes have been in the area of refinements.

They have occurred during the whole process of piloting the pilot which occurred at Senior 1, the pilot which occurred at Senior 2, and the

May 31 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 3594 course has been monitored throughout the pilot process. Mr. Plohman: In general terms, does the minister have a breakdown of the percentage of the course for each of the major areas that she talked about as being covered including critical thinking, decision making, fiscal and time management study skills, entrepre neur ialship, career education, family studies, whatever the breakdown is? Can she give us an idea of how much time is spent on each of those? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, in the course, which is 110 hours, Unit 1, the introduction, is to take up to fiVe hours; Unit 2, Enterprise and Innovation, to take up to 25 hours; Unit 3, Learning Skills, five to 10 hours; Self-management, 20 hours; Managing Your Resources, 10 hours; the World of Work, 30 hours; Independent Study, 15 hours. Mr. Plohman: Which part of the curriculum deals with entrepreneurship-Enterprise and Innovation or a World of Work or what? Mrs. Vodrey: It is Unit 2, Enterprise and Innovation. Mr. Plohman: Is that the basic nature of that

section of the course, all of that 25 hours? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, in that Unit 2, Enterprise and Innovation, areas covered are: what is enterprise and innovation; opportunities and ideas; the value of enterprise and innovation; the process of innovation; maintaining a balance ; and also planning for succes s. Mr. Plohman: Does the course deal with such information as es tab lishing a comp any, a partnership or corporatio n? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the focus of this

section of the course is on critical thinking. It is not specifically a business course which then develops specifically a business plan. ln fact, it looks at areas such as how students can tap into their individual and their collec tive creativity and initiative in any aspect of life. In the area of enterprise, there are

definitions which speak about enterprise as an un dertaking which involves activity, courage, energy and also a daring project. In addition, it looks at d efinitions of things such as in novat ion; en trepre neur ship ; in volving a recognition of opportunities; the needs and the wants and the problems and the use of resources to implement innovative ideas for new thoughtfully planned ventures.

It also looks at the spirit of adventure and an opportunity to take one's own set of initiatives, not just to wait for life to happen; an empowering attitude; a set of behaviours and skills; a way to look at the world, dealing with problems; and perceives needs as opportunities for Improvement and also approaching a need or a problem as an opportunity to learn and grow, rather than in terms of what can be lost, what would be lost. *

(2040) Then, an underlying part of the course is students and teachers to be encour aged to support each other, learn from each other; the Issue of adaptability to change; learning about oneself; the setting of short- and long-term goals; the importance of making plans; the commitment required, both in time, energy; a hands-on learning techniques with student involvement and responsibility in planning, doing and evaluating. Those are all covered in that section. There are, howe ver, in Unit 6: World of Work, some areas which may also be of interest to the member in terms ofthe questions that he has asked.

One area covered in the World of Work is job-seeking strategies and how students should understand the use of resumes and different ways of getting a job, recognizing the importance of knowing appropriate information about employers. Also, a

section on work relationships; keeping a job and protection against harassment; knowledge of the Human Rights Code ; rights and obligations of employees and employers, so that students can understand the role and the responsibilities of the Employment Standards branch, understand the importance of this information for employers and em ployees to apply the basic principles of Em ploymen t Standards legislation to work situ at ions, to un de rstan d the role an d responsibilities of professional associations and labour unions. Mr.

Plohm an : When the mini ste r me ntions empowering, does it deal specifically with women in business in any special emphasis? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, in the World of Work, there is a

section on nontraditi onal careers for men and for women. Also, in the World of Work again, the unit includes sections on goal setting, decision making, career exploration, the changing nature of work and sex-role stereotyping.

3595 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 31 , 19 93 Then in the area of protection again harassment, the student should be able to under stand what harassment is, how individuals are protected by the Human Rights Code and issues which would be among the basics for empowerment. Mr. Plohman: Does it also cover in any way the aspects of co-operative and collective development of enterprises and efforts? What we have seen here is an approach to an individual empowering attitude, more than anything, towards business to create confidence and some skills developed there.

But does it also cover what can be attained in a collective way, in a co-operative way through development of say co-operati ves? Is that aspect of business covered? Mrs. Vodrey: The object of the course is to assist students to become self-reliant, whatever the environment that they are in. It is not specifically set up to assist students to come together in a co-operative venture to set up a business. But in looking at how people work together in the area of self-management, it does cover areas such as un der standing human needs, self-concept, commun icati on, conflict management, stress. Mr.

Plohman: I was just exploring, I guess, the philosophy behind the course whether it, especially the 25 per cent tha t deals prima rily with entrepreneurship, in fact, also deals with the co-operation and collec tive kind of approach to establishing enterprises. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, just a correc tion. Unit 2 does not deal just stric tly with entrepre neur ship. The title area of Unit 2 is Enterprise and Innovation, and it covers a series of areas including, as I have said, what is enterprise and innovation, opportunities and ideas and the value of enterprise and innovation.

One of the major objectives is to extend understanding of the concepts of enterprise and innovation. In terms of achieving those objectives, one of the first things is to know the meaning of the terms. So student activities focus on reviewing the

definitions and implications of a series of those words such as enterprise innovation initiative. They also developed

definitions for terms such as entrepreneurship, which is how in my description of the cou rse I explained that entrepreneurship would fit into this particular unit. But the focus of the unit is not specifically entrepreneurship or becoming an entrepreneur as a specific goal. Mr. Plohman: Does the course deal with the role of government in business? Mrs.

Vodrey: As I have explained, it does certainly look at some of the legislative framework which people working would perhaps need to know about, things like em ployee-employer relations, the Human Rights Code, but it also focuses on issues such as the work ethic and also issues such as citizenship. Mr. Plohman: Yes. Does it focus primarily on pr ivate career de velopm ent as op posed to development of careers or exploration of careers in the public sector? Mrs. Vodrey: The course does not specifically look at exactly where a student might apply their particular interest.

What it does do is it helps students look at their strengths and attempt to apply their strengths very widely and to look at not only traditi onal types of employment and careers but also nontrad itional types. It also encourages students to look at the home as a place of employment and to view that and factor that in in terms of their decision making. lt also looks at many professions and trades that have organizations and associations. It assists students in reviewing the decision making and the problem-solving process.

One ofthe objectives is for a student to look at what they might view as a particu lar career and through an interview process explore that career, also to propose a plan for organizing an in-school career symposium with a variety of speakers so that there could be a very personal way for students to begin to look at the types of careers that they might like to explore. The student should also have a good idea through this area of how to know what employer expectations are.

So there is a series of activities in which students would look at what is involved in terms of a full day's work for a full day's pay as is stated in the student activity. *

(2050) Mr. Plohman: I thank the min ister for that information . Obviously, the minister feels very comm itted to this course, feels that it is filling a very important role in high school education by the information that she has provided and the enthusiasm for the information contained in the curriculum that we are dealing with.

May 31 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 3596 What does the minister feel this course is replacing, what kinds of cour ses? That is where we really get at the-there is only a certain amount of time available in high school and, as in any teacher's school day, in any stude nt's school day, and something has to be given up when another course is made compu lsory. What is being given up by and large in the school system? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, this course has been made a compu lsory course.

By making it a compu lsory course, it does offer it a prominence within the cu rricu lum because it has been, through the process that we have described, identified as a course which provides students with important skills that have been identified through a series of reports. Students are expec ted to graduate from high school in Manitoba with a minimum of 28 credits, and with that 28 credits , our students in most cases are able tc>-it does not involve giving up a subject area. In fact, students do have the room to take this course.

Again, in looking at the high school mod el, it is a course which is accommodated and able to be accomm odated within the programs that are offered so far. Mr. Plohman: Well, we are dealing with, I guess, something that has been made somewhat more flexible. Was not the original intent to have the full course offered at Sen ior 2? When was that changed? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, originally the course was set up as a half credit in Senior 1 , a half credit in Senior 2. It was then a recomme ndation that it become a full credit to be offered in Senior 2.

Through the process of the pilot and the feedback from schools, it was then decided that the course should be, at the end of Senior 4, seen as a full credit, but that it may be offered in the two half credit years, which would allow for a greater degree of flexibility. Mr. Plohman: I think that may deal with some ofthe concerns that I have heard about the course in terms of Senior 2 or Grade 1 0 students having the time to have this course fit into their curricu lum, into their year.

It is my understanding, for example, I guess, at Kildonan East Regional School, which had offered a Canadian studies course for vocati onal students at Grade 10 , that they w ould no longer be able to do that. They had made that a compulsory course basically, at least in that school, for vocational students. This cou rse will be compulsory over the three-year term, so it may be that they will still be able to offer the course as they had it. They were worried about that possibly not being the case.

But it seems that the total hours devoted to this mean that some other options will be lost because the 28 credits were arrived at through physical educ ation, through band or through dra ma, through another language, through computer, various options that were established. Now there are going to be few options available because of this course. Would the minister agree with that? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Dep uty Chair person, the timetable for individual students may be what in some ways dictates what is available for students to take, because students have this among many other courses which they would want to fit into their day and they may have a choice of several options in which they would like to take more than the required number of courses. As I said, it was in direct response in an effort to provide this flexibility that we have made Skills for Indepen dent Living with the flexibility that it may be offered either as a full course or in the two half-credit courses.

In some rural areas, there was a real sense of the school being very pleased with this because it did allow them to provide, and in fact they must provide, this particular series of skills. Again, I would remind the member that the 28 credits for high school graduation is a minimum number and that many students do gradu ate with more than the 28 credits. Mr. Plohman: Is this the same curricu lum for this course applied to all students in high school? In other wor ds, students taking level 4 or 004, 001 courses, would they be required to take the same curriculum as 00 students? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, this course is a gener al core curriculum for all students. However, within the appendices, there is an extensive list of ways that teachers might adapt the course depending upon the level or the particular course that students may be taking. The member used, for example, students in the 04 program versus students in a 00 program. So we have provided for the adaptation of the general core curricu lum for those students. * (21 00)

3597 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA May 31 , 19 93 Mr. Plohman: One of the strategies in Answering the Challenge was Strategy 47 dealing with the In ternational Baccalau reate and Ad vance d Placement for credit in high schools. Is that fully implemented now, and will they also be taking this course in that program? Mrs. Vodrey: The status of the AP and the IB programs, there was a reco mmendation that these be recognized for course credit towards a high school graduat ion. They are, in fact, recognized for course credit for high school graduation.

They are above and beyond the Manitoba curric ulum, but they are recog nized. I believe the member asked the status of skills, and that will be required for students taking those particular courses. Mr. Plohman : Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am going to pass to the Liberal critic for a time. Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood): The member for Dauphin has asked some very good questions in the area of Skills for Independent Living, so I just have a few follow-up questions on that.

Can the minister tell us: Have there been recent presentations or concerns expressed to the staff in her department in regards to the apparent lack of flexibility that some schools or some teachers feel they have in regards to now implementing this course on a comp ulsory basis, or has that been resolved with the full credit versus half credit? I am not quite clear on that. Mrs. Vodrey: That issue seems to now be resolved with the flexibility built into how the course could be offered . Ms. Gray: Can the minister tell us, when exactly was that change made? I perhaps missed that.

Was it just recently that change was made where there could be two half credits or one full? Mrs. Vodrey: We did consider the representation that was given and the final decision was made within the last month. Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the minister talked about some of the activ ities associated with Skills for Independent Living, and I happen to think that the addition of that course is an excellent idea. Can she tell me what, in the pilot projects, type of evaluation was conducted, maybe explain a little bit about the evaluation of the pilot projects ? Mrs.

Vodrey: The information was gained by first of all the pilot schools. They were divided up, shared, among five curricu lum consultants. (Mrs. Shirley Render, Acting Deputy Chairperson, in the Chair) They were visited on site by those curriculum consu ltants so that there was a connection right within the school . There was then a series of regional meetings held. At the regional meetings the teachers involved were invited to provide again a very personal kind of feedback regarding their experience with the cours e.

In addition, in a number of schools the students were surveyed and, also, in a number of schools the parents were surveyed. Ms. Gray: With the surveys and this type of evaluation, what kind of changes were noted in the students? Was it knowledge change or behavior change or was there an opportunity to really evaluate that? I guess I am wondering and, as I say, I happen to think-it would appear that this course seems like a very good one and probably is long overdue in being in the school s.

I am jus t wonderi ng wha t specifica lly the evaluation stated that led the department to be able to say, yes, this is a course that we should offer on a compuls ory basis. Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Act ing Deputy Chair, one of the measurables was a more positive attitude towards school. That was reported by students. It was reported by teachers, and it was also reported by parents. It appeared that this course gave students a context for learning in which they could see an applic ation for their learning beyond their actu al time in each individual class as they looked ahead to their futures.

In additi on, the sec tion of the Skills for Independent Living which calls for indepen dent study allowed students to be out In the commu nity to do things such as job shado wing. Particularly in rural areas, that received quite a lot of support because parents had been concerned about students leaving the rural area. This was a way in which students could make a connection between what they were studying in school, what they might like to do when they finished school, and how they could see it within the area where they were living presently. Ms. Gray: I thank the minister for that information.

I know one of the issues that was raised with the depa rtment in regard to this course and the

May 31 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 3598 compu lsory nature of it was, and I ask this question not necessarily in support of the suggestion but for information, was there a way for parts of the curricu lum, the activitie s within this course to be integrated into other course work thereby allowing more flexibility? Was that looked at at all, or what would the pros and cons of that approach be? Mrs. Vodrey: This was an option or a suggestion which was brought to the department, brought to myself over a series of meetings. We did, as a departm ent, look at it very closely.

We looked at various modules which we wondered if we would find within the current c urric ulum, and we found in fact that it was easier said than done, that there was not really the match with in the current curricu lum to what was proposed in terms of Ski lls for Independent Living.

The other area wher e we found a difficulty was that not all students happen to take the options for which there might have been a module or a proposed module would have been cover ed, so it did not provide for all students in Manitoba the opportunity to receive the skills which were the proposed skills in this particular course. * (21 1 0) Ms. Gray : Is there a long- term eval uation mechanism or is there, as with all cur ricu lum, a service standard evaluation mechanism that tracks, perhaps, some of the measurable outcomes of the benefit of these students taking this course?

Is that evaluation done even after the students have comple ted the course and maybe in three or four years from now when they are elsewhere? Mrs. Vodrey: We have a consultant whose job it is to provide implementation support for this program for '93-94. That consultant again will be available to assist in all the areas of implementation. We then look at two years of feedback for this course before we develop a final guide for the curri culum, and then this particular course, as all other courses, then goes into the curr iculum assessment cycle. Ms.

Gray: With this course, are there suggestions made to schools as to which teacher should be teaching the courses or is that totally left up to the school divisions? Mrs. Vodrey: The issue of who will be teaching the course will be a local decision by that particular area. I am sure that they will be looking for teachers who have the best expertise in these areas. Ms. Gray: Is this the first year then that this curricula is ac tually compu lsory across all schools? Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, starting September '93, it will be the first year that it will be com pulsory. Ms.

Gray: The member for Dauphin and I, in our discussions, we were both prompted by the same question, and that is, what type of training or in-servicing will there be for teachers to be able to teach this curricu lum? Mrs. Vodrey: We have arranged for support to teachers by a series of 15 regional work shops, and 1 0 of those workshops have been completed. Five more will be completed by the end of the year. We will also provide follow-up and assistance. Those, by the way, are workshops for teachers who currently know that they will be teaching the Skills for Independen t Living course next year.

We will also provide follow- up for teachers who may have been hired over the summer. We have also conducted workshops for school admin istrators so that school admin istrators can take a leadership role. They will have a full unde rstanding of what is being offered in the course. Then in addition to that, the teachers who have been part of the pilot program and also teachers who are on the steering comm ittee who wrote the curricu lum are available as resource teams to assist teachers through the implementation process. Ms.

Gray: When will these workshops occur in the areas where-the five I think you indicated-and how long are they in terms of d ays or hours? Mrs. Vodrey: The workshops occur as one-day workshops. Ten of those one-day workshops have occurred. There are five left to occur, and they occur in regional locations around the province. Ms. Gray: How will the teachers then attend these? Is this conside red one of the pro fessional development days for a particul ar teacher? How do these teachers get scheduled into workshops? Mrs.

Vodrey: As we discussed earlier, school divisions do get a categorical grant for professional development. With this funding , this allows them to provide release time for teachers. So school divisions have that as an option. In additi on, school divisions have seen, I am informed, Skills for Independent Living as a priority, and therefore have been making arrangements for their teachers to attend.

3599 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 31 , 19 93 Ms. Gray: Can the minister then indica te, will all the teachers who are left who require this in-servicing be able to receive the in-servicing, and will the divisions be able to afford that within those grants that she spoke of? Will everyone be acc ommoda ted within that? Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, school divisions still receive that categorical grantfor professional development, and that has not changed. Mr.

Plohman: So the minister is saying that in the area of in-servicing she does not believe the loss of up to eight days in some school divisions is going to impact on the ability of school divisions to ensure thattheir teachers are properly qualified to teach this course. It is an excellent example, I think, Madam Acting Dep uty Chai rpers on, where in-service days, professional development days are necessary.

As there are innovations and changes in curric ulum, teachers have to keep up with those changes and ensure that they are ready to apply the latest techniques and so on, and are fully cognizant of the material that is being dealt with. The use of professional development days, the 1 0 days that were available and that many used for professional development in the past, is now in question for this purpose. In some school divisions, it will be available; others, they will not. It will be a patchwork. I just want the minister to attempt to deal with that aspect of in-servicing in the context of this new course.

How will those in-service days affect it? Mrs. Vodrey: Obviously, the member does not under stand how this works. First of all, this is not a divisional in-service, and therefore I think he is speaking about divisional in-service days. This would be an assistance for a teacher for a single course. It would be as if it were a pullout for that one teacher. As I have said to the member when we discussed the funding formula, there is funding which has been made available through the funding formula. That has not changed. We talked about how that might have been used and how it might be used.

We talked about the fact that it might be used for a teacher to go away. A school division might decide to send a teacher away to take a course and have someone in their place. *

(2120) Through that particular funding, which is still available in the funding formula, that would be useful for school divisions to use in this particular area. Again, I un derline that this would not be a requirement for a divisional in-service, which, I believe, he is thinking about. Mr. Plohman: No, the teachers do not necessarily all take their in-service days on the same day. I do not believe with divisional in-services that many of them are used for that purpose.

Some, such as the SAG in-service, are a provincial one; however, there are many ways that school divisions apply their 1 0 days of in-service or professional development. So it does not mean that all of the teachers In the division would have to be on an in-service day at the same time. So it was simply a question of the minister as to whether she feels that there will be any dis advantage for school divisions that have fewer of those days available after this year. Will there be a disadvantage in in-servicing for this kind of course or for other situations like it? This is only one example. Mrs.

Vodrey: As I explained the cate gorical grant for professional development available across the province, we do allow for $4 million for that categorical grant, which is approximately $450 to $500 per teacher per unit of instruction which would be available to allow for support-in this instance, perha ps this par ti cular su pp ort for the implementation of this course. Mr. Plohman: Madam Acting Deputy Chair, $450 to $500 per teacher would be about two days of in-service, or would the department just pay for the cost of the substitute as one of the portions of the cost involved in in-servicing a teacher? Mrs.

Vodrey: Divisions may use a number of mechanisms or apply this $450, $500 in a number of ways. They may wish to use that money in order to have a substitute come into the classroom , but again there are a number of ways in which that categorical grant may be applied. Mr. Plohman: The minister, I know, is aware that if it is used to offset salary, it is only about two days of in-servicing per teacher. Although it sounds a lot of money at $4 million, a significant amount, it does not go that far.

So we are dealing with in the area of the Skills for Independent Living a course requiring 1 0 workshops of a one-day dur ation. Does this mean that one teacher would need only one of those

May 31 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 3600 workshops or one day, or would they need all 1 0 of those to be qualified to teach this course? Mrs. Vodrey: The teacher would require one work shop. What I said was that there have been 15 workshop schedules. A teacher would attend one of those workshops, not all 1 0 of those workshops. I believe the member may not be accurate in suggesting number of days available with the $450 to $500 available per teacher. First of all, they may not be used for teachers. They may, in fact, be pooled by the division, and divisions may use that money in a number of ways.

Howeve r, if we were looking at an application to a single teacher, I am informed that it perhaps would provide more like four days, because substitute costs are in the range of $87 to $1 10 . Mr. Plohman: Just to comple te this particular line of questioning. We are dealing with in-servicing as it applies to this course. This minister did not answer the ques tion regarding the disadvantage that divisions that have removed the in-service days would place their teachers in with regard to a course such as this.

Does the minister feel that there is any disadvantage there in terms of their ability to be in-serviced for innovations, for developmen ts such as this course? Mrs. Vodrey: I did answer the qu estion, and my answer is that we continue to provide, through the cate gorical grant, funding totally of about $4 million available to school divisions, and they may use that in a number of ways . They may choose to use that for assistance to a teacher in terms of a new course, and there are a number of ways in which divisions may decide to apply that money.

I am just informed with some information that in 19 90-91 , in fact, the ac tual funds paid towards the professional development, the actual expenditures were approximately $3.6 million, and today we provide $4 million in terms of the categorical grant. So there certainly has not been any decrease; in fact, there has been an increase in the amount of money available to be used for the professional development through that categorical grant. Mr. Plohman: Will the franc;ais programs have to take this course as well, and will the Francophone school division have to teach this course? Mrs.

Vodrey: Yes, both the franc;ais and the French Imm ersion programs will be taking Skills for Independent Living called Vie autonome. Mr. Plohman: I missed part of that answe r, Madam Acting Deputy Chairperson. Does that mean they will be offering the course? Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, they will, as I described the French title. Mr. Plohman: A couple of other questions about the course. We talked about various material that is covered in this course. When we are looking at exploration of potential care ers, it seems like that is one of the most important areas that is missing in schools right now.

A lot of young people just really do not know what the options are out there, what is available to them and what they have to do to get to a certain destination with regard to a particular career. The other aspect of it, of course, besides their own ability as a student to explore certain careers, to pursue certain careers, is the financial ability and the resources required to obtain a standing in a particular profession. I am wondering if this is covered in this course in any way, because if you are talking about careers, we have to talk about financial ability and resources available.

How extensively is that covered in the curriculum for Skills for Independent Living? Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Acti ng Deputy Chairperson, in the unit, Unit 6, the World of Work, there is a segment called Cos ts of Post-Secondar y Education. Following this particular segment, students should be able to know where and how to access information about the co sts of post- secondary education , should know the costs involved for each year's studies, know how and where to access information on financial assistance for education and also to evaluate other ways to pay for education. Mr.

Plohman : So I would expec t the minister has ensured the latest changes to eliminate bursaries are included in the cur riculum information for students. Mrs. Vodrey: We certainly would make sure that students had the most accurate facts. *

(2130) Mr. Plohman: Madam Ac ting Deputy Chairperson, I would say the most up- to-date information that the minister is talking about here, including the latest cuts.

3601 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA May 31 , 19 93 I mention the issue of career development and career information as being an extremely important one because we have a daughter in Grade 10 , which you would call now Senior 2, and another one just graduated from high school last year. In both cases, this seems to be a major topic of discussion and one that occupies a lot of young people's time in trying to determine what is available for them.

This idea of job shado wing, or exploring in a practical way, careers, by going out and talking to people involved in different occupations and experiencing part of their day and seeing what kinds of things they encounter on a day-to-day basis, I think is very important. How much of this cou rse is spent on that aspect? It would involve a lot of time, it would seem to me. It is a time-consuming approach to explore in a practical way various occupations. How much time is actually spent in this area?

Madam Acting Deput y Chairperson, to the minister, would this be a compulsory aspect of this course or could it ail be done by way of films, videos, slides and in-classroom information, or would there be a requirement that some of it be done in consulta tion with the com munity? Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Acting Deputy Chairperson, in the area of looking towards a career, within the Skills for Independent Living I did describe Unit 7, which is a unit of Independent Study. That unit occupies about 15 hours in the tota111 0 hours of the course. We do look for an interactive approach, not just films and videos.

Howe ver, we also attempt to address students' career awareness, not only through Skills for Independent Living alone, but also we have the distribution of a com puterized career information retrieval system, in-site, for every high school that does not presently have this technology. We also have the distribution this year of Manitoba Prospects, which is a career information tabloid. That went to all high school students and other Manitobans who also wish to look at what the job forecasts might be in the future. We also provide ongoing support for the career symposia.

One occurs in Winnipeg and one also occurs in Brandon. We also have a career consultation comm ittee. It has been established in the Curriculum Services Branch to examine the kinds of career information that students need to be exposed to and to determine the most effective way to give that information to students across the province. Mr. Plohman: Madam Acting Deputy Chairperson, I imagine most of this information was provided by way of guidance counsellors up to this point in time. Is that still going to be a major part of their work or is this totally taken over by this new course? Mrs.

Vodrey: Within the core Skills for Independent Living, there would be class discussion, and class discussion would be generated from information and awa reness which is brought forward from the curricu lum for Skills for Independent Living. It may be that a guida nce counsellor may be invited in for a portion of that class discussion to maximize the available resources. The in-depth kinds of career counselling that have been in the past provided by the gu idance counsellor, we would expect, would still be provided by the guidance counsellor.

That would be that one-to-one assistance for career information and career choices. Mr. Plohman: Madam Acting Deputy Chairperson, I notice tha t in other areas of cu rricu lum developm ent, such as the issue of sustainable developm ent-! believe the same in art, the art curriculum is being revised, and perhaps in the health cur riculum -most of these are being integrated into other courses so that all courses would cover aspects of, for example, sustainable dev elopment as it applies in that course where there is related material.

Was there any effort or any thought given tom any aspects of the indep endent living skills being taught in association with the curriculum of other courses, social studies, for example, science and others, as opposed to a separate course? Mrs. Vodrey: As I did answer a little bit earlier this evening, we did receive some requests to look at that, to look at certain modules in which perhaps Skills for Independent Living sections might be accomplished in other courses.

We did look at it very closely and very seriously, and what we found was that the fit was really not as good as had perhaps been first proposed or thought. So we found that we were not able to take portions of Skills for Independent Living and look at those being covered in cert ain courses which are presently ongoing. We also found that certain students did not always take all of those options or all of those courses in which those proposed segments were

May 31 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA 3602 included, where we were asked to look at proposed segments for Independent Living and ongoing courses. So it would have meant that some students would not have had all of the same information as other students. Because it was really easier said than done, when it actu ally came down to looking at it, we did not find the fit, so we decided to proceed with the full, single-credit course. Mr. Plohman: One other question with regard to this course, Madam Acti ng Deputy Chairperson, is an aspect of information on careers that I think would be valuable.

I wonder if it has been looked at. 1 know the minister has said there was some information given on Manitoba job opportunities, latest information-! do not know what term she used, but it was just mentioned. One of the ways that this is done, for example, that I am aware of, in Australia, ac tually by the federal government, is a booklet of information on every possible career that is available in the whole country, and it is distributed to every student at the end of Grade 10 .

At that time they can use this information to determine what direction they want to take in their high school edu cation in preparation for this car eer. They have a comp lete outline of what the career involves, the kind of life that one leads by pursuing a certain career. They outline all of the qualifications required to get there, the kind of personality traits, maybe attributes that make one success ful in that kind of career.

It is really quite a good thing, I think, and one that I think Canada could benefit from. * (21 40) I do not know whether the minister is aware of or her staff are of what is offered in Australia in that regard , but if it cannot be done at a national level because the government of the day is not inclined to do so, could we do something like that in the province of Manitoba, so that students have a compl ete outline of all possible careers and what is involved in getting to that point, pursuing that career? Mrs.

Vodrey: Madam Acting Deputy Chair, first of all, we do have a program called the Choices program, and this Choices program does provide a great deal of information regarding careers and what is required to reach that end point. It was originally begun by the Dep artment of Ed uc ation and Training, and I understand now that a number of school divisions presently sponsor that particular program. Second ly, we have another program used in the Senior 1 area called the career awa reness lab which also helps students look ahead at the kinds of career choices they might like to make and what is required to get there.

The Choices program and the CAL are both interactive kinds of programs, and I think that is what the member was speaking about in terms of the student having the opportunity on an interactive basis to look at what is required from the point that they are at now . In ad dition, as I said earlier when I was looking at the kinds of information we provide, we do provide the distribution of a computerized career information retrieval program, and that lists in detail over 250 occupati ons.

Fourthly, as I said, we also distributed this year, in co-operation with the government of Canada, the Manitoba Prospects, which looked at the forecasts of occupations and what would be required in Manitoba and how a student might go about reaching that particular occupation. Mr. Plohman: Certainly the updated lists are not sufficient. There has to be backg round information. When the minister talked about the computer lists of 250 occupations, is that the kind of information she is talking about, or is that only in that partic ular mode that just a list of the careers was listed? Mrs.

Vodrey: Certainly in the Choices program and the CAL program there is a great deal of detail that is included for students so that it is more than simply a list of occupational types. Mr. Plohman: Is this provided in a compu lsory way to all students at a certain grade level, or is it just made available to schools? Mrs.

Vodrey: While we have been discussing Skills for Independent Living for the past while, the information that is available through the Skills for Indepe ndent Living course is, in fact, compu lsory because the course is compulsory; but the other resources, such as the CAL or the Choices progr am , are resou rce s with in schools and it is not compu lsory that a young person use that particular resource. Mr. Plohman: Does the minister think that it might be an advantage to requiring that every child have some kind of information on all possible careers, including what is involved in getting there and what

3603 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 31 , 19 93 kind of educational road or stream they might take to get to that destination? This is what I was talking about in the Australian model . It is dis tributed to every student in the country. ! think that same thing would be benefici al, and I am asking the minister about her views on that. Mrs. Vodrey: I would also remind the member that through our Ed Finance model we certainly have made it now possible for each school, Grades 5 to 12 , to have a cou nsellor.

As the member may know, under our new finance mode l, the funds are available and the person is to be hired into that position in order to provide that service to schools. That was included in the Ed Finance model because of the recognition of the importance of those particular skills. In terms of the work of a counsellor and a counsellor assisting students in terms of making career decisions. I agree that is a very important role to be filled in the school, and I agree that students should have as much opportunity as possible to find out as much information as they can.

I am also understanding of the fact that students might need a number of different modes from which to do that. Some students may be most comfortable in the interperson al way, one-to-one, actu ally speaking with the counsellor. Other students may be more comfortabl e using the interactive mode of self-exploration, and other students may be more comfortable looking at the lists and being able to do some thinking and then some dis cussions for themselves.

Some students may need to have a variety of ways in which to make the career decisions, but what I think is important is that there are a number of w ays in which students can get information regarding the making of career choices, because we know that all students are not the same. Mr. Plohman: Certainly they are not in terms of how they might follow up and pursue the information. All of those ways can be pursued, but they need to find outthe basic information as to what is available.

Part of the information that would be provided would be ways to find out more on each career, but that it should be provided is what I am submitting at this time. I am asking the minister if she has thought about exploring the possibility of providing that kind of information on every career to every student at a certain age level in the school system. Mrs. Vodrey: Again, I have said to the member that I do think this is important too, and because I think it is important, we do have the career curriculum committee, and I did refer to that earlier this evening.

Through that committ ee we are investigating ways to strengthen the kinds of information that we provide to students, and strengthen the ways in which we provide information. As I have said to the member this evening to this point, we do provide information in a number of ways, and we have to make sure that this is the way that the students need to receive the information.

So, when I first described the work of the career curri culum com mittee, what I said about it was, it is looking at what is the kind of information that students need to receive and want to receive, and what is the best way to deliver that information to those students. So we did speak about this, and, again, this is an area of im port ance, and wher e there are suggestions about how students could be receiving this information in the most effective way, I am certainly open to hearing what they may be. • (21 50) Mr.

Plohman: The minister just heard what one of those ways may be, and she may want to take that into consideration when considering the report from the comm ittee, because it certainly seems to be effective and working in that jurisdiction. I want to move into the Answering the Challenge booklet that was prepared by the-it seems to have a picture here of a funny-looking guy. Oh, it was the minister at that time, the member for Russell (Mr. Derkach). [interjection) He was pretty young. He had quite a bit more hair at that time, did he not? Point of Order Hon.

Leonard Derkach (Minis ter of Rural Development): Madam Acting Deputy Chair, I think the member for Dauphin is, of course, referring to myself as the funny-looking guy in th�ut I would like to tell you that at least this member does not mumble like the member for Dauphin. The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mrs. Render): I am afraid the member does not have--1 believe it is a disput e over facts. ** * Mr. Plohman: The minister, as usual, did not have anything too profound to add to the debate. I was actu ally giving the minister a compliment because I thought he looked a lot younger in that picture and,

May 31 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA 3604 certainly, had a little more hair than he does at the present time. This was released in June 1 990. There was a time line for implementation of each of the strategies. I want to ask the minister at this time whether she can give us the status rep ort of the degr ee of implementation of the report by September 19 93, as to how much of it has been implemented and what the dates are for those that are not implemented by the September of '93 period, and also any strategies that are not going to be implemen ted in the foreseeable future? Mrs.

Vodrey: Madam Acting Deputy Chair, in June of 19 92, we released to the field the booklet Implementation of the High School Review, which was a status report at that time. Now, for the school year 1 992-93, the department has reviewed each one of the strategies. We have, in fact, a working document now that looks at exactly what the strategy is, what it relates to, any work to be compl eted and actions in order to reach that completion.

This document will be reviewed with the High School Review steering comm ittee in June, and from that steering comm ittee we will come out with the final document following that consu ltation. We believe at this point that most of the strategies have been implemented, that the framework for change is established, and that the priorities for any thing that remains outs tanding will be established with the High School Review steering comm ittee in June. Mr. Plohman: Can the minister indicate whether the time lines for implementation for Seniors 2, 3, and 4 are being met?

These are rolled back from the initial time line. When I look at the initial recom men dations, the dates are quite different from what is proposed at the present time. Senior 2 was 19 91 , Senior 3, '92 and Senior 4, '93. Now we have Senior 2 at '93, Senior 3 at '94 and Senior 4 at '95, so each one has been moved back two com plete years. Is that now a realistic timetable or has that been changed? Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Acting Deputy Chairperson, I did explain that from the very first report, yes, there had been some changes.

Howe ver, from the report which was released in June '92, the one to which I had been referring, all those time lines are now on target. Mr. Plohman: Which time lines are on target, the ones that I just read out or the original ones or is it something new? This was February 11 , '91 that a new time line was set out; that was not even a year after the report was released. So now we have over two years since that letter went out with the revised time line. Is that revised time line still being adhered to, or is there a new revision for that since then that I do not have, that I have not referenced? Mrs.

Vodrey: The revised time lines are all on target, and I believe those were the ones the member had been referring to in terms of the revisions that were made from the initial announce ment. Those time lines, again, which are listed in the June '92 report are all on target, Senior 1 through Senior 4. Mr. Plohman: The minister did not deal with the question about certain strategies that were not being implemented. Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Acti ng Deputy Chairperson, I can say that certainly every strategy that has been identified is in the process of being add ressed.

I can say to the member, too, that some of the strategies are not strategies which would be implemented within one specific year. Some of them are part of an ongoing process . The process of reform, in fact, takes more than simply being mandated for one single year. (Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair) I would say to the member that for a number of these strategies implementation is a process, howeve r, and the change will take time because some of the change which is required through the implementation of these strategies is an attitudinal change, for instance.

When I look at the attitudinal change required for gender equality and to eliminate the sex-role stereotyping, that requires attitudinal change on the part of a great number of people teachers, students and employers. So that one, for instance , is one which again would require a process in which it would be probably not realistic to expect everyone to have com pleted the change within a single year. *

(2200) There are other strategies which will require the co-operation of other institutions. I look at some of the strategies which address the issue of teacher training. I can tell the member that in the area of teacher training, we have been consulting with the

3605 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA May 31 , 19 93 institutions, with the universities, and we are in the process of addressing the recomm endations which apply to teacher training. In those cases, they may not be able to be all implemented totally In one year becaus e of the com preh ensivenes s of that particular program. Howev er, I can tell you again that areas such as that are being addressed. Then, there are other strategies which may be addressed singly and within one year. We have been talking about those, and we have been talking about those as being on target.

So, as I said, there may be three ways in which to look at the process of implementation; one, the strategies which may be easily measured and applied in one year; secondly, those which involve another system in which we would be looking at for a process of change, and work with those systems has begun; and then, thirdly, there are a series of strategies which address a longer term process of, for example, attitudinal change, and that is also ongoing. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. The hour being after ten o'clock, what would the will of the comm ittee be? Some Honourable Members: Carry on. Mr.

Deputy Chairperson: Carry on. Okay. We will carry on. Mr. Plohman: The minister mentions some of the strategies that have not been implemented to the extent that others have, one being gender parity. The minister says that this is ongoing, and it takes its change by a number of different groups and people in society to accom plish. So the question arises, what progress has been made? What initiatives have been taken to ensure that it is, in fact, being implemented? What can be measured? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, some of the concrete work that we have been doing in the area of gender equity and sex-role stereotyping has occurred. I can give him examples in two courses. First of all, in the course Skills for Independent Living, we addr ess, and I have already spoken of this this evening, the issue of sex-role stereotyping and also sexual harassment. I went over the areas of that course in which students would look at their rights under human rights and they would also have a chance to look at the sex-role stereotyping issue.

In the area of family and women's issues, which also relates to the issue of gender equality, we have in the health curriculum for the Grades 5 through 8 area a

section on violence prevention in daily life and in relationships. This curricu lum was developed in response to the Pedlar report and is also a very proactive curricu lum. The issue of gender equity, speci fically, is not an issue restricted to high school, but it is an attitude or approach that needs to be developed throughout a student's school life starting in the very early years through Senior 4. Mr. Plohman: Strategy 8 deals with many aspects besides curricula and textbooks. It talks about provision of appropriate role models, for example.

What is the minister doing in that area with regard to this strategy? Mrs. Vodrey: Strategy 8 deals with sex-role stereotyping, and the department is looking to facil itate the removal of sex-role stereotyping through the process of teacher education, through career counselling, through evaluation of curricula and through textbook content . Through our Cur riculum Services Branch, curriculum consu ltants are instructed to inclu de enabling strategies in this area, looking at science for young women, inclusive language and women in art, et cetera.

Textbook writers and reviewers are charged with the responsibility to screen for sex-role bias and to foster positive female role models and material for children. Also, there are training sessions for reviewers, and they include a major

section on sex-role stereotyping, and also the career symposium presenters have been more aware of the need to expand their material to be more gender inclusive. * (221 0) Mr. Plohman: Mr. Deputy Chairman, Strategy 9 deals with the merits of cocurricular activities as described in here which would be under a different name and talked about as extracurricular activiti es.

What can the minister say about progress made in implementing Strategy 9 considering that these are being jeopardized as a result of certain decisions made by the minister with regard to cuts in salaries for teachers as a result of professional development days being removed. How can she say that she is making any measurable progress, if not going backward in this

May 31 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 3606 whole area of cocurricular activiti es which in the Answering the Challenge booklet is stressed as a very important part of the program of study? Listed as cocurricular activities were field trips, de bate s, fai rs , student exchanges, drama productions, festivals and sports events. These are essentially what we normally call extracu rricular activit ies. Mrs. Vodrey: The depa rtment certainly encou rages the cont inued participation of students in a number of acti vities.

I know som e of the activities that have been listed in the discussion around Strategy 9 relate to things such as debates and fairs, including science fairs, exchange s and student reader ships. We cert ainly do enc ourage the conti nue d participation of students in those particular areas; in fact, we support the student leadership exchange. Again, through our phys ed program, we also look at skill development which encou rages students' continued participation. We also look at fair play, and, in addition, in our phys ed program, we also have an adaptive sports program which allows all students to participate .

I think that this is an important area, so that it does not make some of those particular skill areas only for those who happen to really excel in those areas; instead , we really look at supporting all students taking

part in these areas. Mr. Plohman: Yes, can the minister maybe explain what she views as the diff erenc e between extracurricular and cocurricular? Mrs. Vodrey: I might distinguish betwe en those two by saying that in the cocurricular areas they tend to focus more on equal opportunities, opportunities available to all students , and we again talked about co-operation and fair play and so on, and the fact that ther e are adap tations to allow student participation.

We might look at extracu rricular activities in some areas, particularly in the athletic area, as being somewhat more competitive as opposed to some of the cocurricular, which may be, in fact, more equal opportunity. Mr. Plohman: Is that the only difference'? Does the minister make the distinction on the basis that cocurricular activities w ould be taught more in an integrated fashion with the rest of subject material and co-ordinated with subject material, as opposed to extracurricular which is in addition to after hours, or would she not agree with that kind of distinction? Mrs. Vod rey:Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, when I listen to the member's questions I am wondering about his interpr etation of the terms "cocurricular" and "extrac urricular." I have, in fact, spoken about what may be some distinguishing facto rs, but we may be now looking at an issue of philosophy. I would say that these are important parts of a student's school experience and they cert ainly would look at broadening students' perspect ives. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Deputy C hairperson, I am not sure that was a very clear answer. The minister said that she is looking at my

interpretation, or whate ver. Does ttiat mean that she agrees that maybe that is the distinction, that cocurricular activities are conducted in conjunction with courses as part of the curricu lum or complem entary to the curricu lum of particular courses,

whereas extrac urricular are not· necessarily related directl y to the curricula of any particular course? Is that what the minister is saying, or is there no relationship and essentially is there no difference then? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the issue of cocurricular activit ies, again, has been defined in the Answering the Challenge, and the term has been used to convey a comple ment to the curricu la. The extracurricular relationship may not be viewed as quite as close to the curricula, though it would still be a complement.

Between the two, it is probably easier to look at how schools organize themselves to deliver the activity, whether or not it might be referred to as a cocurricular or an extracurri cular activit y. Again, so me schools deci de to organiz e themselves in a way that they d o not offer intermural sports but only intramural sports. In that way, they are looking at an organization which, again, is not quite as com petitive perhaps as the intermural sports, the intramur al spor ts recognizing the partici pation of more students.

As schools recognize that all students have an academic participation, the organization of activities may also assist students in terms of their participation in other kinds of activiti es. *

(2220) So I would say that one of the features may be, in fact, how schools organize themselves, and I would

3607 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 31 , 19 93 remind the member, too, for instance, some school divisions also have electives in an intersession period. For instance, Argyle School had a two-week intersession in which they offered what they considered to be cocurricular activi ties. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I guess maybe the best way to clarify this is-we note that the Premier (Mr. Almon) stated recently, publicly, that a teacher should be paid extra for certain extracu rricular acti vities. pnte�ection) Scott Taylor's column in the Free Press detailed this last Friday.

The minister can be referred to those statements. I want to know whether the minister would classify cocurricular act ivities as those for which teachers should be paid ex tra or wou ld it be ju st extracurricular activities or would it be just coaching basketball? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I did not see the

article that the member is referring to, and so I do not have that same particular reference pointthat the member wants to talk about. As I said earlier, we may view cocurricular and extracu rricular based on how schools choose to organize the events. I have just spent some time discussing how schools choose to organize them selves with activities which may be complemen tary to the actu al curric ulum. Mr. Plohman: So I take it the minister has not quite decided yet whether she agrees with the Premier (Mr. Filmo

n) on payment to teachers for extracurricular ac tivities. I have asked the minister whether she has decided whether she agrees with the Premier that teachers should be paid extra for providing additional services for extracu rricular activ ities. Mrs. Vodrey: Again, I think the member might want to listen again to the Premier's remarks. I have to say I did not hear them first-hand. I think he is referring to some remarks the Premier may have discu ssed on an open-line show. Again, he would probably want to put those remarks into the context from which they ca me. Mr.

Plohman: I can assure the minister that we will put them in the proper context during Question Period at some opportunity. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I want to ask the minister -she has said that everything is on stream, and that this implementation of the Answering the Challenge is going along quite nicely, in earlier questions. pnte�ection) Well, the former minister says, you bet; he is the author of this, which is, in many cases, referred to as a disaster.

Strategy 2 talks about school divisions being "requested to submit, by January 19 92, their plan of acti on, based on the identified criteria for the maintenance and enhancement of this environment in their schools.w The environment is the one discussed in Strategy 1. I would ask whether the school divisions have indeed submitted their plan of action by January '92 or even by January '93. If so, how many have? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, this document is now drafted .

It was in fact in a draft form previously, and from that draft form, there was quite a lot of opportunity for school divisions and superinten dents to make a comment on it. It is now in a form where it is ready for public ation. The target for distribution is September '93. In the process of developmen t for an effective learning environment, as the memb er could imagine, it will require the partici pation of all staff. lt will require participation of the commu nity, so what we will be putting out in September of 19 93 is a working document.

With this working document, the schools will in fact work as they also work through the continued implementation of the High School Review. When the High School Revie w has com pleted its implementation, then the school boards will in fact submit plans to the department on the effective learning environment. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Is it the will of the comm ittee to just take five minutes for a stretc h the-leg break? Ave minutes just to stretch the legs. Five minutes, stretch the legs, thank you. The comm ittee recessed at 10 :20 p.m . After Recess The comm ittee resumed at 10 :40 p.m . Mr.

Deputy Chairperson: The comm ittee will come to order. Mr. Plohman: The minister had indic ated earlier that there was a revision to the timetable for Answering the Challenge and that everything was on

schedule to the revised timetable. June '92 was the date that that paper came out, the booklet revised? That is correct.

May 31 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 3608 1 want to know what the timetable given for Strategies 1 and 2 was in that booklet, because the minister just told us everything was on

schedule to that and now she tells us that the criteria were not eve� established for Strategy 1-o r will not be established until September '93. That is when it is going to go out. It is just being published. T�at is a full two and three-quar ter years after 1t was supposed to be ready, accor ding to the timetable. Then we are looking at the next step, which is when school boards will respond with their action plan to these criteria. That was supp osed to be done January of '92, so we are a year and a half behind now.

So I guess what I would want to know is whether the revised timetable of June 30, 19 92 has been met for these two strategies. Mrs. Vodrey: Strategy 1 has been accom plished. Strategy 1 was the development of the criteri�. The development of the criteria has been accomplished through the consult ation with the High Scho �l Review ste ering comm itte es. Strategy 1 IS accomplished. Strategy 2 was not directly addressed in the document of 19 92 in terms of a timetable.

Because there was a recognition that this was a very complex area and, as I said, it was a document which was intended to make a difference, what we have done is now we have the criteria settled. As I said, Strategy 1 is accom plished, and we are no '!' planning for the release of the document 1n September 19 93 to the schools. As I said earlier as well, this will be a working docu ment. It is intended to be used in the schools through a process of study and review by a te�m of teachers.

It is not intended for use by a s1ngle individual who will then implement it, but, as I said, it is intended for use as a working documen t by a group. So it is, in fact, on target in terms of what is intended to be accom plished. Mr. Plohman: Well, the minister cannot explain the unexplainable here. The fact is that the Strategy 1 is two and a half years behind schedu le , and Strategy 2 has not even started yet. Point of Order Mrs. Vodrey: Strategy 1 is accom plished. I made that clear in my last answer. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order pl ease . The honourable minister does not have a point of order.

It is a dispute over the facts. *** Mr. Plohman: Well, if the minister made it clear, whatever she made clear is that it is two and a half years late in being accomplished. It was s�pposed to be accomplished by January 199 1. It 1s to be publis hed June 19 93, we hope, I guess, and distributed to the schools by Sept ember '93. Anyway you look at it, it is two and a half years late. Mrs. Vodrey: No, that is not correct. Strategy 1 spe aks to the development of the criteria. Developmen t of the criteria has been accomplished.

We are now looking at the distribution of the document to the schools in September '93, but the strategy was developed in consultation with the High School Review steering comm ittee. That is Strategy 1. That has been accomplished. Mr. Plohman: It is good to hear the minister is pleased to have Strategy 1 done. That is a good place to start. Strategy 1 is done, accor ding to the minister, two and a half years late. My original question was, what was the date provided in the June '92 update for Strategy 1, the pro jected date of accomplishment? And then for Strategy 2, what was the date of accom plishmen t?

The minister earlier said with Strategy 2 that it was very complex and too difficult. Therefore , it was not identified in the June '92 document; it was not identified for a specific date. Yet the Answering the Challenge document put out by the minister's predecessor boldly said that this would be done by January of '92, this specific date. Why cannot the mi nister project a specific date jus t like her predecessor attempted to do, howeve r wrong it was? Mrs. Vodrey: In the document released in June '92, that document was intended to look at the revisions or the changes in terms of time.

These two strategies were not identified in that document. I can say to the member that Strategy 1, or the document that is looking at the learning environment, was to be developed in consultation or in concert with other documents that were being developed at the same time. I would specifically point to the document on mul ticultural education. That document, which was released last May, a year ago, May of '92, also speaks to the issue of the learning environment. That documen t also needs to be seen in terms of No. 1, the criteria, and how they were developed. Those criteria developed in relation to or in

3609 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANIT OBA May 31 , 19 93 reference to other documents which were also being worked on at that time and which also reflect issues relating to the learning environment. Mr. Plohman: Well, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the minister is referring to all kinds of complica ting circum stances which prevented her and her department from implementing Strategy 1 accor ding to the

schedule that was adopted. There were no ext enua ting circum stances ide ntified in the document that would prevent it being implem ented by January '91 or, I would assume, they would not have put that date In there. The minister can maybe speak to why those com plicating matters were not included in the initial strategy. If we look at Strategy 2, now that we have got off the ground, that the minister has finally done Strategy 1, what was the reason for Strategy 2 not being included in her revised dateline that was published in June of '927 Mr.

Derkach: You know, I have been sitting here witnessing the questioning from the opposition. I would like to say that I have never seen a sorrier sight in terms of questioning from the opposition than I have from the member for Dauphin. When you lower your level of questioning to such items as we have heard here from the member, I have not heard any substance yet, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. I am surely hoping that as we progress in the questioning of the Estimates in the Department of Education that we are going to get into some su bstance because this certainly is not it. *

(2250) Mrs. Vodrey: The docu ment for 19 92 was a document for use as teachers and administrators worked through the piloting and the implem entation process, and they will identify areas that requir e further clarification and interpreta tion. This doc umen t of '92 summ arizes the adjustme nts of the last two years made to the high school model. In relation to Strategy 2, the High School Review steering com mittee had been reviewing it, they had been making progress, but they also believed that there needed to be further consu ltation with the field.

Therefo re, they did not include it in the document that was released June '92 but instead decided to look at how this would be dealt with in terms of long-range plans. It does deal with a very important area. As I stated, as the commi ttee looked at this issue and they worked with it, they realized that there did need to be some further work done on it. Now we are at a point where the document is ready to be published and will be distributed to schoo ls for September '93. Mr. Plohman: I thank the minister for that answer.

We can certainly under stand why the previous minister is so sensitive as we examine his dismal record here. It is to be expected that he would become very defensive about that. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I think we see two examples of the dismal record of the previous minister by the answers given by the present minister when she indicates that the deadlines or time lines for implem entation of Strategies 1 and 2 were tot ally off, that they were tot ally impr actical and unr ealistic and they could not be met in any way, shape or form . These are the previous minister's deadlines.

The record is clear, two and a half years late on Strategy 1, no time line for Strategy 2, already a year and a half behind and the clock is ticking. So I can only assume from the minister's answers that she agrees that the previous minister had put in place a report with time lines for implemen tation that were tot ally unr ealistic and the minister would agree with that. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, absolutely wrong. The member has just carried on with a set of conclusions that are jus t completely false and wrong.

I have spent a great deal of time this evening explaining to him the work of the High School Review steering committee and the work that has gone in to implementing the strategies for the High School Review and how, when working with the issues and working with the field, that then areas were discovered and discussed which would requir e additional consu ltation and additional work. That is a model in terms of flexibili ty and in terms of understanding that I think is a very helpful one which integrates the issues that are being uncovered to be solved.

The member perhaps would like to have gone ahead and to have discovered issues, having already made decisions and then having had to go back. So what I am saying is that guidelines were issued in terms of time and that in working with the issues, we looked at what was requi red and have now released a set of times. As I have said from the beginning of our disc ussion this evening, that we are on target in terms of the strat egies and their

May 31 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3610 implemen tation. That has been the basis of our discussion for some time this evening. I see that the member views time lines as very specifical ly deadlin es instead of any sort of guidelines. I can tell him that the work that the previous minister did in terms of preparing this has set a basis for us to continue working in terms of looking at issues of quality and excellence. They are important. We want to make sure that what is put forward are also issues of substance.

So I believe that does answer his question in terms of the times and to reassure him, as I have said, that we are on target now for the times we are looking at in the implemen tation of the strategies. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Depu ty Chair person , the previous minister, when he introduced this report to the public, said in his statement that the policy directions as outlined are the result of an extensive review process and reflect the input of various partners and so on. What I am reading from this minister is that the previous minister did not do his homework before he put this report out.

How else could the time lines be so far off? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, I would remind the member that consultations are ongoing and that they are a process. The memb er, in his question, seems to think that once consulted, never to be consulted again. That certainly has not been the process that we have followed. So, as the previous minister has said, what had been brought forward was in fact based on a series of consu ltations and now we are at the implemen tation process , we continue to consult. Mr. Plohman: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, it is not me that put the deadlines on these implem entation dates on this report. They were put on there by this gove rnment, by the previous minister, by this minister's predecessor, who put out a report with particular specific times for implementing each of these recommendations. They have not met them and they are far off. Can the minister give us any idea when Strategy 2 will be implemen ted as envisaged initially when this report was put out by the previous minister? He identified January 19 92.

What does this minister project at the present time, or has she learned from the previous minister's mistakes and will not give a time line any longer? *

(2300) Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chair, well, as I have said this evening, the report and the guidelines will be released to schools in September of 19 93, and following that, school divisions will begin to develop their plans in September. The submis sions will actually occur over a period of time, but school divisions will begin to develop their plan of action during the school year '93-94.

We will look at the pacing of their implemen tation, because we expect that it will be done in a very orderly and sequential way. lt is very important that in the process of implemen tation, the orderliness and sequentialness be preserved. As I have said to the member as well, we have relied very strongly on the advice of the High School Review steering comm ittee and also the advice of the stakeholders. So the process has been one in which there has been this ongoing consultation with the field as we discussed. We are now looking for the plans to begin in their development stage in the school year '93-94. Mr.

Plohman: I under stand the minister's dilemma in having to answer to a ridiculous time line that was placed in this report, inheriting it. So the minister is saying that they will start to implement this about two years late, and then it will go on for some time. Who knows, another two, three, four, five years? We do not know. The minister just will not speculate, and I can understand that too because the last date that was given was so wrong that the minister may not want to be pinned down to a date. Let us look at Strategy 4. This one the minister had more time.

The previous minister gave her till 19 95 for each school division in the province to have the services of a co-ordinator for guidance services. "The current Education Finance Review will make pro vision for this positi on." Can you imagine "the current Education Finance Review will make provision for this position"? Here we are now about a year and a half away from this one being implemen ted, and so I would try to give the minister some running notice on this with a one and a half years to go. How is she doing on this one? (Mr. Jack Reimer, Acting Deputy Chairperson, in the Chair)

361 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 31 , 19 93 Mrs. Vodrey: The funding that is in place now is for gu idance counsel lor s for schools in Grades 5 through Senior 4, and that is now part of the new ed funding form ula. In terms of the co-ordinators, specifically on the advice of the Ed Rnance Advisory Committee, it was their recommendation that the funding first go to direct service as opposed to the administration. And, in terms of the actual date for implemen tation of the co-ordinator, well, we will look to the advice of the Ed Rnance Comm ittee when the funding recomme ndations are made. Mr.

Plohman: Yes, well, the date was identified, for better or for worse, as 19 95, and that was five years down the road . It seems like an eternity, I know, when the minister put this out, that he would have five years to have to do that. Now we are only a year and a half away from having to implement that. Is the minister now indicating that she is backing off from that strategy?

I think it is important to put this all in context, because the minister did say earlier on that everything was going quite nicely with the implem entation of the whole Answering the Challenge document, that strategies were being implemen ted and they were all on schedule. So now we have to explore this in some detail. I would have to ask the minister then on that basis: Is 19 95 realistic? Is she backing off of the date? Is she now saying that perhaps they might not even do it and go instead with direct services as opposed to a co-ordinator as well? Mrs.

Vodrey: Again, when we look at the kinds of changes and the time lines and guidelines which have been noted, again, they are there, they do provide a sense of focus, and they do provide a way to measure some progress but, as we have said, change is a process, it is not a single event. The member has wanted to tie it to a single event. This evening we have spoken about some areas which may be a single event and ot hers which are in fact a longer period of time or a process of change which needs to occur.

If the member looks at the front of the document Answering the Challenge, which I know that he is referring to, on the second page, the second parag raph, it does say: "This document pro vides the bluepr int for the future development of high school curriculum .... " High school curricu lum had not changed in many, many years, and this was a bluepr int. So as we look at the blueprint and not something specifically cast in stone, we realize that some of the strategies will be able to be implem ented fully and others will be able to be implemen ted fully and others will be implem ented in varying degrees.

In terms of this particular strategy, we will be relying on information and recomm endations from the Ed Rnance Advisory Comm ittee as well to look at the process of implementation for this particular strategy. • (231 0) Mr. Plohman: The minister really put her finger on it when she mentioned this is a blueprint. I do not know whether she has ever looked at a bluep rint, had one drawn up.

Certainly all of the capital facilities which she is in charge of, all of the schools and ot her facilities that are being built are built on the basis of bluepri nts that spell out in detail, every single detail that is going to be considered in building a particular building. If we are dealing with that here, I would like to know how the minister can talk about putting together a plan in varying degrees. It would be the same way as trying to build a building in varying degrees. What does that mean-have the thing changing along the way all the way? It is impo ssible.

These dates were put in here precisely because it is a blueprint as envisaged by the department and by the previous minister. This was the plan. The time lines were the time lines, the dates for implemen tation. So the minister perhaps thought she was referring to a paragraph that would allow her to soften the dates and they did not really mean what they said. In fact, by doing that, she provided evidence that stre ngthened the argument we are making that, in fact, they were not being met, and this whole thing was derailed and way off course. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, the member is wrong.

Perhaps his knowledge is not as completely clear as he thinks it is. There are modifications made to blue prints. The member knows that, un less he is not as familiar with the term as he claims to be this evening. I did refer him to the term blueprint so that he would see, yes, this was a plan. The plan or the working drawing which we have been looking at this evening is able to be improved upon, is able to be looked at by the field and also by the various comm ittees which have been set up. I have pointed to the ed advisory committee as being one which is

May 31 , 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 3612 looking at the funding, the ed funding advisory comm ittee. I let him know that, based on their par t icu lar reco mm en da tions, they had recommended that funding be focused on direct service, and we accepted that recomm endation. Mr.

Plohman: Is the minister indicating now by her statement that she is throwing out the bluepr int and starting over again, that the bluepr int was not what it was supposed to be, and because of the to tally ridiculous deadlines that were put in that have not been met in terms of the minister's action on this so-called blueprint that she would be better off, at this point, to redraw a blueprint, a new working drawing for High School Review because this one is ridiculously out of date? Would the minister agree with that then? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, no, I would not agree with what the memb er is saying. We certainly have been using the High School Review in each of the strategies. As I said to the member, we have just finished a comp lete review of all the strategies. We have looked at the work accom plished. We have looked at work that needs to be done.

I have explained that in June the High School Advisory Comm ittee will be looking at these strategies and they will also be looking again at the priorities. 1 have also said that some of the strategies which have been pointed to are also being developed within the development of other strategies within the de par tm ent. We tal ked about the learnin g environment and we talked about other policies such as mu lticultural education and that particular strategy does reflect on the learning environment. So it was important to look at that in relation to the document on the learning environment.

In relation to this strategy, I have also explained to the member that it has been important to look at the work of the Ed Finance Advisory Committee, and that is exactly what we have done. Mr. Plohman: The minister, in her earlier reply, said that services should be first and that was what was recom mended and that has been a priority. We are not arguing that. We think that it is important to have prof essionals providing services for kids. These are all, of course, jeopardized by the funding cuts during this last announcement by the minister regar ding funding.

But if we were to look at Strategy 5 and Strategy 4, we note that in fact ther e would be certain requiremen ts. If the minister is abandoning these strategies, then she can simply say she is and that services come first and that in today's fiscal situation, financial situation, it is no longer practical to make this recomme ndation . We would respect her mor e if she would just say that rather than dancing around the time lines and raising all kinds of irrele vant argum ents about interlinking and interlinking strategies.

What we want to know from the minister: Is she going to proceed with this, with the implemen tation of 4 and 5 at any time, or is it on the basis of the current financial situation impractical? Mrs. Vodrey: I think the mem ber has in fact perhaps finally answered his own question. Maybe he is now a little bit more clear on exactly what it is that he would like to be asking.

Perhaps now, through the process of discussion, he has come to an insight about what is really happening, but I would say that he has in fact overlooked another importan t point that I have been speaking about this evening and that is that a number of these strategies are being developed in relation to other policies which are being developed by the Department of Education and Training and that it is im portant to look holistically at exactly the total development of policy areas. He did say and referenced in his-a s he posed his question about time lines being guidelin es, which are, in fact, what they are.

When we look at the document produced by the former minister, yes, there have been intervening events. There has been an election as an intervening event. There has been a new minister as an intervening event. School divisions have experie nced changeo vers as intervening events. In addition to that, we do have some very real financial challenges, and we are attempting to deal with those through consultatio ns, through the advice that is being provided by the minister's Education Finance Advisory Commi ttee.

I think that it is im portant that a progres sive and a creative gove rnment, which, I beli eve, we have demo nstrated here, demons trate the ability to make these adaptations which we have been discussing this evening. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, if I read the minister's last answer correctly, she is saying that if I answered the question, then the mi nister is, in fact, abandoning some of the

361 3 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 31 , 19 93 strategies. She nods her head in the affirmative. Why does she not say that she is in fact- Point of Order Mrs. Vodrey: I do not know who the member was looking at for the head nodding. Certainly he would not have been referring to any indication that I gave him at all. I said that he answered his own question by coming to an insight himself. The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Reimer): The member did not have a point of order. *** Mr.

Plohman: Perhaps the minister was nodding off, but I did, in fact, see that she was indeed nodding and I assumed that she was saying, yes, that is correct, that she is, in fact, abandoning some of the strategies. She is now saying she is not abandoning them, and yet I understand that this insight she says I gained on this was that somehow, because of fiscal situation, some of the strategies cannot be implemented. If that is, in fact, the case, why does the minister not just say that she is not implementing certain of these strategies?

I ask the minister to come clean with the commi ttee, with the Legislature, and say that, if it is not practical at this time, if that is what she is saying now, then let us have it clearly that she is not going to be pursuing as a priority that every school division should have a co-ordinator for guidance services because it is not service delivery directly. Therefore, it is no longer the kind of priority that was envisaged at the time that this report was made. It is not practical at this time. She will not be doing it. *

(2320) Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Acting Deputy Chair, again, the issue is, first of all, the member attempting to read whatever signals that he thinks he is seeing; that is just ridicu lous. I think that probably he should, in fact, be spending the time listening to the information and continuing to try and develop some insights into the answers given. As I said, through a process of discussion, we have covered a great deal of information in this area this evening, and, as I said at the beginning, an adaptation is not an abandonment. The member seems to have not unde rstood that.

What I have spoken about, as we have been discussing the strategies, is that there has been a great deal of work. Work has been done by the steering comm ittee. Work has been done by the Ed Finance Committee. So there has been a lot of input into the actual implementation of the strategies. As I said, in looking at where we are now with all 90 strategies, we have reviewed all 90 strategies this year. We have looked at where we are with those strategies. We will be covering those with the steering comm ittee and with the steering comm ittee, they will be having a look at them.

As I said earlier, they will also be looking at areas of priority as will the Ed Finance Advisory Committee be looking at areas of priority also. I did give the member an example of an identified priority in terms of the priority of direct service which was identified by the advisory com mittee. So we look at the whole answer again, the whole answer says that adaptation is not an abandonment, that as we have continued to work with the stakeholders and the various advisory comm ittees, the priorities have been identified or the adaptations have been identified. Mr.

Plohman: The minister is talking about all these advisory committees that she has that have to det ermine now whether in fact these are guidelines only or are they really a blueprint. So I guess all of this is being rethought. Would the minister ind icate which advisory comm ittees are reviewing various aspects of Answering the Challenge? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I would like to start by saying that the document Answering the Challenge, the strategies within it, cut across all branches and sub jec t areas of the Department of Education.

So since 19 90, the strategies themselves have been a part of the work that has been done. They have been a part of every curriculum meeting, for instance, so that we can certainly look at that as one starting place in terms of where this information has been used and how the information and the rec ommendations have been integrated. When we look at other commi ttees which are operating, I could give him some examples. First of all, there is the High School Review steering comm ittee and, obviously, they are dealing with the strategies.

We also have an Advisory Committee on Native Education which is dealing with some of the strategies. We have the advisory committee on ed funding, and they are also dealing with some of the

May 31 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 361 4 strategies. We have an Advisory Committee for Gifted Education, and that is dealing with strategies. We have an interorganizational advisory commi ttee. We also have an advisory comm ittee on Distance Education and that task force which has recently given its report.

So we have looked at the work of this particular document, this blueprint, and we have made every effort to look at the strategies as they cut across branches, as they cut across curriculum and have their work integrated into the work of the comm ittees which are very active within the Department of Education and Training. Mr. Plohman: The minister is talking about not just one advisory committee, she is talking a whole numb er of different comm ittees that she has classified as advisory comm ittees.

Maybe it never occurred to the minister that what she could have used was an action comm ittee to get something done with regard to the classroom and what is happening with students. The minister has indi cated that she has advisory comm ittees doing this and that and she has a blueprint. Seriously, it seems to me that we need to have support for our teachers in the classroom s, and this is what is missing in the minister's plans. There are all kinds of theory and philosophy and discussions and processes and various interlinking strategies as the minister says, but we do not see any acti on.

The minister has indic ated to this House that she still considers this a practical blueprint even though the time lines are way out of whack.

My contention is and our contention is that because the time lines are so far out on this report, and indeed it is no longer practical to talk about this as being implemented, what we are talking about is an adapted version that would be so far changed that, and because of the changing financial and fiscal realities that the minister has talked about in terms of her budgeting and the cutbacks to the public schools, it is no longer practical to even talk about the repor t as being something she is implementing.

Why does the minister continue to talk about implementing the Answering the Challenge report, now three years old, in whic h the time lines are three to five years behind sche dule? Mrs. Vodrey: First of ali, the edu cators across Manitoba, who give a great deal of time to these comm ittees and from which there has been a great deal of act ion, might be quite disappointed in the remarks made by the member for Dauphin.

Those people, who do give of their time and do provide a great deal of hard work and have provided a great deal of assistance across Manitoba, I think, do not need the member for Dauphin suggesting that they have been doing nothing. I would also say that it is the time we have spent in continuous consultation with the field and with these comm ittees that is keeping this document current.

The member seems to be expressing concerns that someho w this document is not current, yet all of our discussion this evening has pointed to the fact that the document is in fact current, that there is a reflection in the strategies which reflects the changes that have occurred. That is why I have said to the member that the work that we have done for this year in looking at all of the strategies and which we are referring to the advisory committee is the updated work. So it is important to recognize that the document is current.

I would als o say that all of the advisory comm ittees which I have spoken about first of all certainly are action comm ittees. I only need to point to the comm ittee on Ed funding to show the member and point to the brand new funding model which was instituted a year ago and to the changes which have occurred this year. *

(2330) The Distance Education task force has certainly been an action committee. These comm ittees do refer all of their work to the steering comm ittee on the High School Review so that there is a process and a coming together based on the work of these commi ttees. I could, if the member likes, provide some information of just what action has been delivered to the Parkland area, the area that he represents, from only one part of our department, being the curricu lum area.

There is certainly more information which I have available which could describe the information from many different parts of the department but, just within the Parkland area, ther e have been workshops presented on a series of areas including cognitive coaching and an early years reading workshop, implementing the Senior 2 Language Arts Program, developing curricu lum congruent ex aminations, workshops for the Parkland super in tendents and PO ch ai rpersons on

3615 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 31 , 19 93 sus tainable develo pmen t. There has been adminis trative support. Parkland region is represented by a number of people on departme ntal comm ittees. Bill Scha ffer, superintendent of Swan Valley School Division is represented on the High School Review steering com mittee, one of those comm ittees that the member is wondering about the effort and the work.

So I would ask him to perhaps look to his own division and to look at the work being done by a superintendent within his own division, who also, by the way, sits on the health edu cation steering comm ittee. A representative from the Pelly Trail School Division sits on the English language arts steering comm ittee. So there has been a great deal of action which has occu rred by these com mittees. Thes e comm ittees have been very active and they have provided important action to education in Manitoba. Mr.

Plohman: Well, the minister is incorrectly off on a tangent about the work of edu cators on the advisory committees. I have not maligned their work. They are doing their job as outlined and directed by this deputy minister and this minister. They are the people that are on the front lines trying to do the work. I suggest that the minister is not providing the acti on. I only have to look as far as Strategies 1, 2, 4 and 5 that we have identified as not being anywhere near close to being implemented as outlined in the paper, in the document.

I am going to go and pursue a few other of these recomme ndati ons, these strategies, to look at the minister's action plan. Let us not try and confuse the issue as somehow maligning the educators. That is ridiculous. It is absolutely ridiculous. If I am confused, as the minister says, the only reason I would be confused is because the minister has not given any straight answers here tonight. She would certainly provide misleadi ng- [inte�ection] The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Reimer): I would ask the member to withdraw that remark. Mr.

Plohman: Certainly, we ll, in terms of her delibe rately misleading, I did not say that, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, but I would say that, as I said earlier when this discussion took place with the previous chairperson, to the people looking on at this process, they can only be misled by what is happening, and that is the way I see it tonight in terms of what is being provided here. Now let us look at Strategy 12 .

"The department will establish a liaison group representing faculties of edu cat ion, commu nity colleges, school divisions and professional organizations to co-ordina te professional dev elopment activiti es. w Can the minister give us a status report on that recommenda tion? Mrs. Vodrey: Let us just go back to some of the commen ts of the member, in terms of the action, to say that there are 90 strategies and I am informed as of our latest review which will be going to the advisory comm ittee that they are about 80 percent complete.

That is quite a simple mathematical way of looking at this so that the member, I believe, can unders tand the amount of action which has in fact taken place. In reference to Strategy 12 in particular, I can tell you that strategy has been accomplished by the setting up of the interorganizational curricu lum advisory commi ttee. I have spoken about that this evening, and it is a relatively new committee. (Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair) Its purpose is to provide advice on principles, goals and broad directions to be followed in the developm ent, the im plem en tation and the assessment of curricular K to 12 .

The commi ttee also pr ovides a fo rum

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-4-73b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 4th hansardpdf 73b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	f2520ff022ce3e1429aa4898b431d1c335805f2e

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