Manitoba Hansard — 26 May 1983 (Sitting 75B, 32nd Legislature, 2nd Session)

32-2-75b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31-32 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXI No. 758 - 8:00 p.m., THURSD AY, 26 MAY, 1983. Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Hon. Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon. Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOVNAT S, Abe LECUYER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOT T, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon .. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verendrye Minn edosa Rhin eland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Bonif ace Riel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Ru pertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-R ussell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Ross mere ln kster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St.

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LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 26 May, 1983. Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Comm ittee, please come to order. We are still on the item where we left, 1.(bX 1) Executive Management, Salaries - the Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: When we closed off at 4:30, we were discussing the MARC Report.

Just for clarification, did the Minister indicate that the report was ready with respect to the submissions that were heard throughout the province but that he had staff working on other information that he wanted, and staff had now gathered information and had com pleted that part of it and was wanting to tie that in with the rest of the report before it would be submitted to a legislative com mittee? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. A. ADAM: We should be able to call the committee and have a proposal for the commit tee's consideration, I expect, around the 15th of June. MR. D.

GOURLAY: The Minister then is saying that he does not have a report com piled from the submissions that he has received to date. HON. A. ADAM: The staff have prepared a considerable amount of information that we've been gathering all throughout the sum mer mo nths. Also they have prepared a paper on the briefs that were presented. That has just been com pleted recently. They have also prepared a report for our consideration, the commi ttee's consideration, which we are looking at now, and which I will be bringing forward, I expect, about the middle of June.

And that we'll be able to call the com mittee together by then. MR. D. GOURLAY: I wonder if the Minister would consider giving all of the members of the com mittee a copy of the report so that we may have a chance to peruse it with sufficient time prior to the meeting being called so that we can deal with it at the time the meeting is called. With reference to a similar com mittee in Agriculture dealing with the Crow meetings, the committee had something like a month to prepare the report, and members of the opposition received the report.

Twenty hours later, the Standing Committee on Agriculture was called to deal with that report. Subsequen tly, we didn't have enough time to study it or take it back to caucus, so we now have delayed any further meetings for another week. We could run into the same situation if we don't receive the report until the middle of June. We'll need some time to study it before we can deal with it, and that could see us on into another couple of weeks.

If the Minister says that the report is ready, I wonder if he would consider providing it to the members of the op position at least a week or two before the commi ttee is called. HON. A. ADAM: I don't think it's normal practice to circulate any reports until they are compl etely finalized. We're still looking at those reports. The report that we received from the hearings is a different report than the recomm endations that will be coming forward, the suggestions that we're making to the committee. MR. D. GOURLAY: Is the Minister saying then that there'll be two reports? HON. A.

ADAM: Well, there is, essentially yes. Just the one. MR. D. GOURLAY: Well, would then the Minister consider providing that to all mem bers of the commi ttee, in sufficient time in advance of the calling of the commi ttee, so that all members will have a chance to study it and be able to deal with it when the meeting is called? HON. A. ADAM: I think I could take that under advisement and consider doing that if that's . MR. D.

GOURLAY: Well for the Minister's information the precedent has already been set in that the Minister of Transportation suppli ed us with copies of the Agricultural Com mittee hearings some 20 hours in advance which was fine but not sufficiently enough time for us to be able to have a chance to caucus it and be able to deal with it at the time of the meeting. So if the Minister is wondering about the precedent it's already been established where the reports would be sent out in advance. HON. A.

ADAM: We'll take that under consideration. it's a reasonable request if other departments are doing it, I guess, if it's been done before we'll see if that can be done again. MR. CHAIRMAN: They just did it this morning. HON. A. ADAM: I'm in a good mood tonight. A MEMBER: You're a reasonable man. MR. D. ORCHARD: You should have seen him when he was com plaining about the canvas for bed sheets. He wasn't in a good mood that day. HON. A. ADAM: No. I'd just got off them, that's why. MR. D. ORCHARD: Sleeping under a tent and stuff like that, all the compl aints we heard when he was in op position. 3130

Thursday, 26 May, 1983 MR. CHAIRMAN: 11 must be relevant to the item under dis cussion. HON. J. COWAN: Well, I think that's relevant. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Ho nourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, Mr. Chairman.

I think the reque st of my colleague, the Member for Swan River is one that will assist the Minister because I want to tell hi m tha t tod ay, we met this morning in the Ag ricu ltur al Co mmitte e and we ha d received a consensus report dr awn up by the Min ister of Trans portation staff which was theoretically reflect ing the views heard at the public meet ings, the committee hearings that we held throughout the province, similar I would suspect, to what your staff is drawing up for you. The Minister of Transportation provided us that report some 20 hours before the committee was called.

The objective, I believe, of this Minister and the government is to attempt to get this Session over with some time this year. What we did is we ended up with only 20 hours' notice, having really to defer the consideration and the passage of that report a week from now. What my colleague, the MLA for Swan River, is saying is that if the Min ister has his report completed, please don't drop it on the committee at the time we meet, because we'll simply say we haven't had time to consider this, and we'll ask that the committee meet ing be called a week later .

If the Minister provides roughly a week 's notice so we can deal with it around the caucus table, as I'm sure the Mini ster made reference earlier on; this report that he's having his staff draw up, his Cabinet is looking at, his caucus is going to look at. We're no different. We have to do the same kind of thing to bring the opposition opinion to the committee hearing. If the Minister can provide that report to the members of the committee in the opposition a week or so ahead of time, then we can have a meaningful meeting when he calls it.

Otherwis e, as the present chairman tonight can attest, we didn't get an awful lot acco mplished today because we had not the time to really get into the meat of that report. So the suggestion is to help the Minis ter, and we're always willing to help this Min ister; so that if he could take this as one of the kindly pieces of advice that Her Majesty's loyal opposition give him, he will be well-advised. Now, Mr.

Cha ir m an, in di scussion of the staff develop ment of this report, is the staff only dealing with the briefs that were presented and those that were mailed in by people who were unable to attend the committee hearings? Is the staff only dealing with the four basic recom mendations as were developed in the green book and the briefs to them, or is the staff considering recom mendations that the public didn't add ress during the hearings? HON. A. ADAM: They have dealt principally with the four major areas and plus what we heard at the hearings.

While I still have the floor, the request for advance copies of the proposals to the committee is one of the few reasonable requests that I have heard from the 3131 Member for Pembina in a long time, and my heart is bleeding ... A MEMBER: Is it bleeding with joy? MR. D. ORCHARD: You can't soar like an eagle when you work with tur keys. No sir, boy. HON. A. ADAM: I think I would be amenable, since it's not very often that he's real laughable and in good humour ... MR. CHAIRMAN: You'll give him 21 hours. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I think you're out of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thought the Minister was going to add a few more compliments to me there and I was waiting, but seeing as how he's just quite stingy on them ... HON. A. ADAM: I ran out. There .1as only two. MR. D. ORCHARD: Ho wever, I have to admit; I'll take any compliment from the Member for Ste. Rose, the Mini ster of Municipal Affairs. I value his political nose, I bel ieve the Premier said, the First Minister said, the political nose. A MEMBER: Political acumen. HON. A. ADAM: I'm the acting shark nose. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the Minister this afternoon made a speech in addressing a Private Members' bill, which caused some concern. and if I inte rpreted the Mini ster's remarks correctly, he basically established government position wh ich was subsequently reaffirmed by them using their majority to defeat the bill, that being the bill for muncipal - (I nterject ion) - No. Mr. Chairman, this is relative to MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister has a point of order. HON. A. ADAM: I think, Mr.

Chair man, tha t we did discuss briefly before the supper adjour nment the conflict of interest, and we're now moving into the Legislature in Priv ate Members' Hour in dealing with bills that come. I don't think it is relevant or germane to what's before us at the present time. 1t has nothing to do with administration of the Department of Municipal Affairs. MR. CHAIRMAN: We are discussing Item No. 1.(bX1) Executive Mana gement Salaries of the Department of Municipal Affairs - the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

You betcha we are, because the Min ister this afternoon ind icated the reason the government would not supp ort th at bill was that there were

Thursday, 26 May, 1983 recommendations in the Weir Report which would resolve this. Now, that bill was defeated. That Bible College may well have to cease operations because of the failure of the government to provide them with tax relief as proposed in the Private Members' Bill. HON. A. ADAM: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. D. ORCHARD: My question to the Minister is ... MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister is raising a point of order again. HON. A. ADAM: We are dealing, Mr.

Chairman, now with legislation presented in the House, and I think it's just an abuse of the time of the committee to deal with legislation that's presented in the House. MR. D. ORCHARD: I don't think you want to have a vote right now, Pete. MR. W. McKENZIE: You can't deal with anything that was dealt in the House in here. HON. A. ADAM: Well, they have to be at least germane. MR. D. ORCHARD: Especially when you haven't even heard the question. You'll hear it. I've got all night, you'll hear it. You betcha you will. MR. CHAIRMAN: You cannot reflect on the vote in the House. That's against the rules.

The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Minister in his reference to the bill said that the Weir Report had a recommendation which would deal with that. My simple question to the Minister is: Since the government defeated the bill, how long will the Bible College have to wait for the government to deal with the recommendations in the Weir Report that will provide them the tax relief that the bill that they just defeated would have provided them? How long will they have to wait?

Will they have to wait one year, two years, three years, because they may not be around that long without tax relief? So my question is very direct and very appropriate to this item of discussion. How long are the people going to have to wait for the Minister and the government to move on those recommendations? HON. A. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, we went through that this afternoon, and I brought the members up-to-date on what had taken place and what is going to take place within the next week or so. I indicated that there would be some legislation coming forward.

I indicated again this evening that we should be calling the committee together on the 15th. I believe it is a reasonable position to try and deal with all those inequities that exist out there, perceived inequities or anomalies, all at one time rather than start working on a piecemeal basis and have chaos on your hands. This would be the second bill that has come forward for exemptions, and I expect that we may see more. If you open the door, set a precedent for one group, you will have immediately several other groups. We have had many groups come in, farmers in the St .

Clements area who feel that they are being unjustly assessed because they're in close proximity to subdivisions and so on. There are all these inequities that .. . MR. D. ORCHARD: The Weir Report could resolve it. HON. A. ADAM: Not necessarily. The fact of the matter is that even though we have accumulated considerable amount of information, there is so much more information we should have before we could go ahead and implement the entire recommendations. CHAIRMAN'S RULING MR.

CHAIRMAN: For the edification of the memb er, I read from Beauchesne, 315, Su b-paragraph 2: "11 is irregular to reflect upon, argue against, or in any manner call in question in debate the past acts or proceedings of the House, on the obvious ground that, besides tending to revive discussion upon questions which have already been once decided once, such reflections are uncourteous to the House and irregular in principle inasmuch as the member is himself included in and bound by a vote agreed to by a majority; and it seems that, reflecting upon or questioning the acts of the "majority" is equivalent to reflecting upon the House." The Member for Pembina.

MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That was an excellent ruling, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, since the Minister has said that they want to deal with all of these inequities not piecemeal but in one major bill, and he at the same time indicates that there is going to be legislation yet this Session, can we assume from the Minister's remarks that all the inequities are going to be removed by this legislation that he's proposing this Session? HON. A. ADAM: Not necessarily, no. MR. D. ORCHARD: Then my next question has to naturally follow.

Does the Bible College then, can they expect that their situation will be addressed with these amendments since the Minister spoke against the bill and had it defeated? HON. A. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, you have just made a ruling on what has happened in the House and ... MR. CHAIRMAN: The member is courting disa ster. HON. A. ADAM: . . . I raised a point of order at that time and the member continued on that line of questioning. MR. D. ORCHARD: We'll change the question. Then I'll just ask the Minister a direct question.

Will the Bible College taxation problem be relieved in the legislation he's going to bring forward this Session? HON. A. ADAM: I don't think that we would have sufficient information. What would happen - I was not 3132

Thursday, 26 May, 1983 prepared to accept as a new principle, without addressing the whole package; and secondly, I was not prepared to accept a shift of $17,000 in taxation from one group, to exempt one group, to other taxpayers in the area. That's a problem we have to address and we have to address it all in one package, rather than in a piecemeal fashion. I have held to that position right from the beginning, that once we do deal with all these inequities, let's deal with them as broadly as possitle, and not in isolation of the total package. I still maintain that position.

What would have happened, we would have had to shift taxation, or the municipality of De Salaberry would have had to shift $17,000 this year onto other taxpayers. I'm not sure whether the Member for Pembina is asking us to do that, but that would be the result. He's asking us to remove $17,000 from one taxpayer and passing it onto another. I think that's what he's asking us to do. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I think the Minister was reflecting on a decision of the House this afternoon in Private Members' Hour with his last remarks. HON. A. ADAM: No, I wasn't. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, I'm a kindly person and I will overlook that. But, Mr. Chairman, the Minister is now embarking upon a course of action that we now identify as a modus operandi for this Minister. This Minister .. . HON. A. ADAM: Explain. MR. D. ORCHARD: . . . you might recall, Mr. Chairman, when he was developing the Main Street Manitoba Program, he said that, oh, he's not going to get rushed into any big fast approvals of any Main Street Manitoba Projects. Oh no. MR. A. ANSTETT: And he didn't. MR. D.

ORCHARD: This Minister was going to develop and consider all aspects and he was going to consider all of the ramifications, the implications, and he was going to have the most perfect program that you ever saw in Main Street Manitoba. That's why the opposition started to name it as the "Perfect Peter" program, not the Main Street Program, but the "P erfect Peter" program, because it had to be perfect.

Well, you know, I sort of can agree with that, except that we have to bear in mind that this was one of the major planks in the New Democratic election platform, that they were going to fix up the main streets all throughout Manitoba, and a whole year later he had one project announced and he has approved in principle two more. This government is a year-and-a-half down the road; they didn't even come close to spending the million. Well, they didn't spend 5 cents of the $1.5 million they approved last year. Now. the "Perfect Peter" program is an excellent objective, but it doesn't get anything done.

This Minister, once again, is now saying, "Well, oh, golly, you know, I'm not going to move on anything in assessment until we can resolve all of the problems, so that we can have a perfect assessment system, so that we can eliminate all the inequities, so that what we're going to do is just going to be perfect." Well, he'll never get it done. Meanwhile, the inequities that are there that the municipal councillors day by day make him aware of are going to exist. They're going to continue to exist and they're going to get worse.

This Minister has put an indefinite freeze on assessment in the City of Winnipeg, and the problem gets worse and worse and worse while this Minister tries to develop the "P erfect Peter" program No. 2 in assessment. Well, it isn't going to work. This Minister is going to have to exercise his responsibility as being a Cabinet Minister in a government and start taking some action. Now, I don't detect him going to do that. He talks about there's going to be legislation, but it isn't going to address one area of concern, one inequity.

But yet he says he doesn't want to move without dealing with all of these problems, and yet one problem that's there, that he knows is there. he says won't be identified with this piece of legislation, whatever it's going to be, that's coming in this Session. So already he's saying one thing and going to do another. He'l' going to bring in legislation this Session that isn't going to deal with all the pro blems. Well, when do we believe this Minister? He wants to not move piecemeal, he wants to make sure he addresses all the problems before he makes a move, but he's going to bring in a piece of legislation.

We don't know what it's going to to. For certain, we know it's not going to assist the Bible College or any institution like it. So this Minister has got a problem, and this Minister is going to have to get off the fence. He would have the support of the majority of the municipal councillors if he would make a move, but he can't sit there in the middle of the road for the next two-and-a-half years until he's no longer Minister of Municipal Affairs. He can't do that because the inequities are getting worse, the p roblems are getting worse.

Thc.t's why we set up the whole process; that's why we had a report drawn with recommendations. If the Minister would refer to the back chapters of the Weir Report, he will see an implementation

schedule which said that by June of 1982 this could be done, by August of 1982 this could be done, by the end of 1982 we could have this, and by 1985 it could be completely implemented. But the way this Minister is going, the way this Minister is proceeding with it, there's going to be nothing happen in the whole term of this New Democratic Goverment and the inequities are going to grow and be worse. If you think it's politically popular to do nothing, talk to yoL•r municipal councillors, talk to the executive of the UMM; I'm sure they're going to tell you it's not popular to do nothing.

Sure, it's going to take a little courage to deal with it, it's a big problem, but if courage is what it takes to deal with it, I'm afraid this Minister and this government don't have it. Either they don't have the courage to deal with it or they don't have the knowledge to deal with it, and one's as bad as the other. Now, we can't have that kind of a situation in Manito ba. This Minister cannot continue in this development of a perfect assessment remedy . - 3133

Thursday, 26 May, 1983 (Interjection) - Oh, the Minister of Natural Resources says we want them to rush. Since when is rushing, asking you to rush, to do something in 18 months - you've had ... HON. A. MACKLING: You had four years to do something about it, but you did nothing. MR. D. ORCHARD: Oh, oh, wow, wow, here we've got all of the experts, and one of them an ex-expert from the Schreyer years, when these inequities occurred and became part and parcel of the assessment system in Manitoba, while the Schreyer administration sat and did nothing, and we took - (Interjection) - No.

I'm not saying the Schreyer administration caused them, they happened because of the existing legislation which was not adequate and the existing assessment system which was not adequate, and we addressed that problem. We gave you a report that was probably one of the best overviews of assessment that's ever been done in the Province of Manitoba, and we've got a government that's sitting on it. They want to develop the perfect assessment program. Well, Mr.

Minister, you won't do it, and you're failing your responsibility as a Minister, and this government is failing the people of Manitoba by not addressing the issues in that report. Talk to the municipal officials, and they will tell you that they wish you to make some moves. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. The honourable Minister. HON. A. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, I want to . MR. D. ORCHARD: Hold it, Mr. Chairman, you were calming down the Member for ... MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm calming down everybody. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, thank you. I'd like to . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina has the floor. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you.

I'm certainly pleased, Mr. Chairman, that you stopped the rabble down at the end of the table from interjecting, it's quite unbecoming of him. MR. A. ANSTETT: If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, I create the heat, I won't get out. Mr. Chairman, the Minister must ... HON. A. MACKLING: ... the Member for Pembina from saying those things is amazing. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina has the floor, although he's teetering, because he's using some language - be careful. The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: I'm always very careful, Mr. Chairman.

But the Minister is sitting on a report which gives him some excellent direction. I think if he canvasses his department, I'll bet you the majority of the senior staff in his department says that a lot of the recommendations in that report are good recommendations to resolve the inequities in the assessment system that are presently there. They are also going to tell him that they don't eliminate them all, but they're also going to tell them that they're impossible to eliminate them all. But you're going to have to try to get a more equitable system; that's what the Weir Report was all about.

Sitting on your hands and doing nothing does not help the Province of Manitoba, does not help the UMM and the elected officials in the Province of Manitoba. 11 doesn't help to remove the inequities, it doesn't help to create a fairer way to share. This Minister is going to have to bite the bullet, he's going to have to do something. Last year, at this time in his Estimates, we accepted the fact that he was having to study the report because he'd only been a Minister for six months. Okay, we'd buy that. HON. A. MACKLING: He'd only had the report for one month. MR. D.

ORCHARD: We'd allow the Minister to not commit himself on the report and on what course of action, but he's had a whole year, he's had hearings. The hearings have been finished for three-and-a-half months and he's done nothing. HON. A. MACKLING: How long did it take to produce the report? MR. D. ORCHARD: So you know, Mr. Chairman, this Minister's got to move, and the help that you get from the likes of the MLA for St. James is not help, Mr. Minister. That will hurt you if you listen to advice from him.

He's the fellow that, you know, his staff ran away with him and sent letters out to the Red River Valley communities on diking without him even knowing it. He's not much help, Mr. Minister. You rely on the staff you've got, they'll provide you good advice, and we'll ask you and we'll encourage you to make some moves on the assessment report. HON. A. MACKLING: . .. assessment report at the Red River Valley communities . . . to hear what they have to say. MR. D. ORCHARD: Oh, well, they say you're just as silly as you were before. HON. A.

ADAM: I do want to respond, at least, to the criticism that the member raised on the Main Street Program. I want to point out, Mr. Chairman, that despite efforts by the opposition to downgrade and downplay the Main Street Program as much as they possibly could that I maintained all along that the Main Street Program would be a success, that there would be interest out there, and that has proven to be correct.

Even the town - of the Member for Pembina - will be coming forward with an application I expect in due course, and there are a number of applications in the final stages or advanced stages of negotiation at the 3134

Thursda y, 26 May, 1983 present time in addition to those that have already been announced. So I' ve said all along and I maintained all along that it would be a good program, it would be accepted by the public out there, not having prior experience, the luxury of prior experience of that kind of a program. Sure, we did learn that it was not easy for the local people, the municipality and business people to get together and address the comp lexities of changing the whole look of a town.

I'm sure the Member for Swan River will appreciate that, and we give credit to the initiative of the municipality there, the town council and the business people for having taken the initiative and come up with a program, but it was not easy. The first program wasn't worth any thing. The first application didn't even come close to - (I nterjection) - meeting the criteria, but the second one was, I have to say, an outstanding effort. It is a complex question when you want to change the whole face of a town, especially when you want to have the co-operation of the business people as well as the municipality.

They have to look at their budgets; they have to look at their timing; they have to look at the popular support of the program. Maybe in some areas, we might have been too optimistic, but nevertheless I have said all along that program would be an exciting program, a successful program, and it has turned out to be that. That goes for the media as well, because they were not that charitable in their comments as well about the program. MR. D. ORCHARD: How about the other issue? HON. A. ADAM: The honourable mem ber says that we have been sitting on the assessment review.

I want to say that there is a lot of information, and I give credit as I did this afternoon to the Weir Committee on all the work that they did and the methodology that they used and the information that they accumulated, but they themselves did not have nearly enough information to try and know the implications and the impact. They suspect that there would be some major shifts if their recommendations were implemented. That is why they overstepped their terms of reference. The y were not to deal with the taxa tion side of assessment.

That was not in their terms of reference, but th ey real ized tha t by im plementing their recommendations that there could be some major shifts in assessments. Therefore, they suggested portioning. Now I don't want to get into the MARC Report, because we are not supposed to be dealing with that here. I don't want to deal with the m<>.rits or demerits of the MARC Report. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister is getting into the substance of the report. HON. A. ADAM: So I want to say that the work that we have done has been quite extensive.

The work that staff has done has been quite extensive and that work is ongoing at the present time. I want to say that we sti ll could stand a lot more information on the implic ations, yes. I think members opposite would not want us to proceed without having a sound footing and be on sound ground as to where we're going, but we are moving on it, Mr. Chairman. I indicated that we should be calling the committee back by around the middle of June. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (b)(1) -the Member for Swan River. MR. D.

GOURLAY: When the Mi nister met with the Mu nicipal Advisory Committee recently, he inc.;icated a number of issues were discussed, one of which was the bilingual agreement. What kind of response did he receive from the Advisory Committee with respect to that area of concern? HON. A. ADAM: It was a closed meeting, Mr. Chairman, and I don't think it would be fair on my part to indicate what the feeling of the Municipal Advisory Committee was. I would prefer if he got that information from them, and I think he could. MR. D.

GOURLAY: Although I didn't see the program, I understand the President of the Union of Manitoba Municipalities subsequently went on television to air some views about the program. Are you saying that area was to be kept in confidence? HON. A. ADAM: No, I'm not saying that. I am saying that when we met with the comm ittee, we asked them -as I indicated, we meet with the committee from time to time. I've met with them four times in the last year and-a-half. I asked them if they had any subjects that they would like to discuss or have on the agenda, and they suggested some things they would like to speak about.

I, as well suggested some topics that we thought we would like to discuss and those were discussed. One of them was the topic of a federal program that we just found out, I guess, the Monday before. The Federal Government was offering a program to assist those municipalities who would like to avail thems elves to some assistance to provide bilingual services without any binding or compulsory aspects of it. It is just strictly a voluntary program. The government would never agree to any compu lsory aspects of imposing any services on any municipality that they did not wish to have. MR. D.

GOURLAY: Did the municipalities feel that further discussions should be arranged so that issue could be discussed before it was finalized? HON. A. ADAM: I believe they would have liked to have been part of the consul tative process and they mentioned that but, due to the fact that the consultative pr ocess never involv ed th e munic ipaliti es, the negotiations that were taking place between the Federal Government and the provinces dealt only with provincial institutions such as the courts and Crown agencies and so on.

We met with them on Friday and it was only on the Mon day prior to that that even the province was aware that there was a suggestion that the Federal Go vernment would be willing to assist some municipalities on a voluntary basis if they wanted to provide any French services, but it wasn't binding or they were not insisting upon it. They said, if any munici pality wanted to avail themsel ves of th at assistance, it would be provided and that's where it 3135

Thu rsday , 26 May, 1983 stood. I got the impression that they didn't want any further discussion on it. My unde rstanding was that we didn' t want to continue having further discussions on it. My understanding as where it sits now is that the program is there and I don't think it's been finalized yet, and the terms of reference of what assistance will be provided, what type of assistance and how much assistance will be provided, hasn't been finalized yet but it'll be available.

I presume the way it will be done is any municipality that feels they would want to have some training of some kind, or some assistance maybe to transfer bylaws into two languages, or whatever, that hasn't been finalized yet, but I imagine that would be some of the things that they may want. MR. D.

GOUR LAY: Back several months ago, I believe all of the municipalities in the province agreed that there should be some restraint on spending limits, and I think that it was unanimous with the municipalities; yet, when they approached the Premier in Cabinet, they could not get the assurance from the Premier in Cabinet that the government would go along with their restraint program. I wonder if the Minister would comment on that fact. HON. A.

ADAM: The discussions we had with both groups, the Union of Manitoba Municipalities and the Urban Association as well, I think we pointed out to them that we had renegotiated the public service agreement, and I don't have all the data with me here, but it had the effect of reducing the agreement to 5.9, I think it was, or something along that nature, because of the extension and the freeze on the increase, which would have clicked in, I believe, six months earlier or along those lines.

I don't have all the facts before me, so I don't want to get in too deeply in that area, but we did also point out to them that the school divisions had negotiated salary settlements high er than wha t the MG EA settlement had been. So it wasn't really the province that was setting the trend, as such; that there had al ready been some ag reements sig ned by school boards, which were quite substantial, for two-year projects. We also discussed that we didn' t feel that a 6 percent freeze right across the board was equitable.

We suggested rather that it should be perhaps percentages and dollar figures involved where 6 percent across the board, a 6 percent increase to a person who is receiving $30,000 is a substantial increase, but 6 percent to a person receiving $1 0,000 or $1 5,000 is a hardship. For that reason, we thought it was pretty simplistic to say that we're going to hold the line at 6 and 5 right across the board, especially in different jurisdictions.

Different provinces had different problems, and I believe different municipalities had different problems, and they have subsequently found out that in order to adhere to their 6 percent increase, they've had to dip into reserves. So that is not holding the line at 6 percent when you have to dip into reserves to hold your 6 percent. So, yes, you've held your increases to 6 percent, but your reserves have gone down to pick up the slack. So it's not as cut and dried or as simplistic as we'd want to believe, and it has been difficult. How do you control increases on fuel for buses and so on?

There are many uncontrollable expenses that come about that no one has any control over, and that is one of the reasons th at I bel ieve the munic ipalities -mind you, I congratulate them for their efforts to try and restrain expenditur es and I give them credit, give them 100 percent marks for their efforts - but I think we did lead the way. We have been able to renegotiate our public servant contracts on a voluntary basis, no confrontation, such as happened in other provinces. You've seen the ramifications of that in Quebec and it's still not finished.

I understand, the latest I hear now is that the teachers may have a case to go to court and the government may have to pay them back for all the cutbacks that they did. That's the latest I hear. MR. D. GOUR LAY: Well, the Minister is saying that he congratulated the settlement because there was was no confrontation. Well, I think the settlement was very generous and, certainly, you wouldn't expect that there would be any confrontation. The Mi nister also said that the municipalities were proposing a rigid 6 percent across the board.

Is the Minister saying that the municipalities were not flexible in that 6 percent limit, that salaries and costs could be adjus ted in a scale, but the total expenditure would not exceed 6 percent? Isn't that what they were proposing? HON. A. ADAM: The resolutions that we received from the associations - I don't know which one, but was it the UMM or the both of them -suggested that we hold the line to 6 and 5, but when we did meet with them, they qualified that.

They qualified and said that they were looking at that as well, that there could be a 3 percent increase or no increase for some, and maybe more than 6 for others. So they had qualified that sum from the time that the resolutions were passed at the convention. However, the municiplaities are mature; they're 100 years old and they're responsible people. I know that we, as a government, do not feel that we should try and tell them what they should be doing.

They're responsible people and I gave them all the marks and credit for the efforts that they're undertaking to try and maintain their glob al budgets; but I believe, and I can safely say, that they're going to have some difficulty in some areas, that there's just no way that you can say, when you have increases in motor fuel and so on, that you're going to be able to hold the line. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Robli n-Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr. Chairman, I have a couple of questions for the Honourable Min ister.

I wonder, can the Minister advise the commit tee if he is prepared to comment tonight, or if he's already commented, to the brief he's received from the municipalities from Western Manitoba, which at that meeting at Newdale was presented to me and other ML As, and in the interval now, they have been forwarded to the Minister and the other members of the House. HON. A. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, I'll have to take that as notice. I believe it is the Mem ber for Minnedosa that asked me if I was going to a meeting in Newdale prior to the 3136

Thu rsday , 26 May, 1983 meeting taking place and I indicated to him that I had not been invited. I wasn't aware that any other Mi nister in the Cabinet or member of the government had been invited. I didn't think I would go without an invitation. I wasn't aware of the meeting until the Member for Minnedosa advised me of it just a day before I believe it was. I'm not sure whether I did receive a resolution from them, through you to the Mem ber for Roblin Russell, but I'll have to check that and perhaps I can give the member a response at a later date. MR. W. McKENZIE: Well, Mr.

Chairman, if an apology is necessary it is my understanding that all the ML As were invited to participate, but nevertheless we'll leave that to one side. The brief was presented and mailed to all the ML As in the House. At least I'm satisfied that the ones that I spoke to were -the meeting was April 8th if my memory serves me correctly, and the issues are basically what my colleague the Member for Swan River are discussing, the escalating costs of running a municipality in this province and what the Minister and the government were prepared to do with it.

I certainly associate myself with their concerns out there, but we're waiting for the leadership and the guidance of this government to respond to that brief and if at all possible let us share his comments as where his department, the Minister of Municipal Affairs, is going to lead the municipal ites of western Manitoba as they grapple with these problems. I would certainly like to invite the Minister to share his comments with the committee so at least we have some guidance out there where this government is going and where these muncipalities can go in terms of this government.

The matters were health and education costs, the matter in which education costs are levied against the mun icipal ities, inflation, deficit financi ng, and the problems that they're having with the labour contracts. Those were among the topics that were headlined in the brief. I'm sure if the Minister takes a look he'll find the brief real quick. If I may, Mr. Chairman, they wanted a response by June 1st so they could use this response for the regional municipal meetings that are taking place in that part of the province. HON. A. ADAM: Well, as I mentioned previously, Mr.

Chairman, I'll have to check in the files and see if there is a brief there. At the moment I don't recall, but I'll check it out and if there's a brief, I'll deal with it. I can assure the honourable member that if he received an invitation to attend that meeting, and I understand that he was there, and I also understand th at he made statements to the effect th at the government was sitting on the MARC Report, and I understand that there were some of his colleagues there as well. But if they received invitations, at least the Min ister of Municipal Affairs did not receive any. MR. W.

McKENZIE: May I ask the Minister if he'd be kind enough to respond to my question regarding the fact that when he does repond to it that we can be favoured with his comments, so that it will give ML As like myself, who reside and they represent the people in the area, what decisions this government and this Minister is making to help these municipalities deal and resolve these problems? HON. A. ADAM: Yes, sure. MR. W. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. D.

GOURLAY: Yes, I wonder if the Minister could indicate whether or not he's had any representation or resolutions from the municipalities or the municipal organizations with respect to elections. At the present time the elections are for th ree-year terms. I know that there has been some discussion from time to time that muncipalities would like to go back to the two-year elections. I'm wondering if the Mi nister would want to comment on any representation he may have had with respect to changes in the . . . HON. A. ADAM: Mr.

Chairman, we received no requests from the associations for any change in the term of office. Is that what you're referring to? The term of office or ... MR. D. GOURLAY: Yes, from the th ree-year term to something other than three years. HON. A. ADAM: We've received, Mr. Chairman, no request from the associations. I believe that we have received maybe some sugg estions from one municipal ity, and that is certainly insignificant as far as 302 municipalities, and one out of 302 don't really constitute a concern out there as far as I can see. MR. D.

GOURLAY: I, therefore, gather that the Minister is not contempla ting any chan ges in the elec tion procedure? HON. A. ADAM: Not at this time, Mr. Chairman. MR. D. GOURLAY: Another concern I would like to raise is, during our term in office there was some delegations came in from, I believe it was the rural Municipality of St. Andrews and maybe part of the local government district of Alexander wanting to form their own muncipality in that area. Has there been any recent developments with respect to those ratepayers, citizens, that would like to form their own muncipality in that area? HON. A.

ADAM: My understanding is that there has been no new developments in that area. I do believe that Alexander have formed a planning district there with the Village of Powerview and Alexander . St. Andrews, did you say? MR. D. GOURLAY: No, I think it was the R.M. of St. Clements and part of the LGD of Alexander. I know that when I was Mi nister and just prior to the change of government there was a lot of activity in that area. I believe I had advised them to meet with their respective councils and get the response from those 313 7

Thursd ay, 26 May, 1983 councils as to the breaking away of parts of two or more municipalities and forming their own municipality. I'm just wondering what developments has this Minister had with respect to that group? Has anything developed in that area? HON. A. ADAM: I'm not aware of any developments in the last two years in that respect. I'm not sure whether they wanted to move to a regional type of government, or a county type, or an amalgamation of a number of municipalities together or . . . MR. D.

GOUR LAY: No, I think it was a selective group of people in the area tha t felt that th ey weren 't adequately represented in their present location and they wanted to break away and form their own separate municipal ity. HON. A. ADAM: Oh, I see. MR. D. GOUR LAY: It wasn't anything to do with a regional situation. It was they felt they could better look after their affairs if they were encompassed in their own municipal ity. But I'd like to ask the Mi nister if he has had any approach from these people in the last year-and-a-half with respect to this? HON. A. ADAM: No. No, we haven't received anything at all. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 1. (b) ( 1 )- pass; 1. (b )(2) -the Honour able Member for Springfield. MR. A. ANSTETT: Yes, Mr. Chairman. I was not aware that Alexander and Powerview had formed a planning district. I'm wondering if the Minister can tell me what the total population of that planning district is? HON. A. ADAM: We can get it for the honourable member, I'm sure. MR. A. ANSTETT: Mr.

Chairman, it might be more appropria te for me to ask these questions when we get to the appropriate item so that staff are available, but seeing as how you have allo wed this sort of free wheeling debate, I thought I could cover everything too. I've got a list of things I would like to cover. Perhaps we'll let that one go until we have staff from the Provincial Planning office or from Municipal Planning here and wait for that item. Mr. Chairman, I have some concerns about the brief from the Newdale meeting, because I didn't get a copy eith er.

The Member for Roblin-Russell suggests that all members got copies, so I would appreciate it if he would supply me with a copy because I share some of the concerns that he has in that area. Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister, I would like to advise the Minister that I would certainly have strong reservations about the Minister getting involved in, as the Member for Robli n-Russell suggested, helping municipalities deal with labour problems. When we start talking that way, Mr.

Chairman, I get a little nervous that the Member for Roblin-Russell is suggesting that the Minister should interfere in the collective bargaining process. I would certainly not want the Min ister to entertain seriously that suggestion, whether it comes from the Member for Roblin-Russell or from this meeting of western Manitoba municipalities. The other thing, Mr.

Chairman, that I think should be pointed out for the benefit of those municipalities and the Member for Roblin-Russell, when he talks about deficits and financial problems and othe r things associated with the economic recession tha t this province and country are experiencing, is that the last time a subs tantial increase was provided to municipalities in the form of their direct revenues was by the Sch reyer Government in the form of 2 percentage points on income tax.

The member was a member of the government for four years very recently, and they made no attempt to change that provision of income tax points, which was a very valuable provision in that it provided growth tax. I think when the Member for Roblin-Russell attends those kinds of meetings, he has an obligation on himself to explain why some of these problems were not addressed in four years, and not just to dump them all on this Minister's lap. So I have some concerns about those kinds of arguments, Mr. Chairman. I would like to put them on the record on this item.

I'll save my other questions then for the appropriate items in the Estimates. HON. A. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, I want to advise the Member for Springfield that I have big laps and I can take a lot of dumping on my laps. I don't mind that. MR. A. ANSTETT: It's not the dumping. It's the recycling that bothers me. HON. A. ADAM: I can respond to the first question that the honourable member raised asking about the population of the two communities. The population for Alexander is 2,793 and Powerview is 691 for a total population of 3,484. MR. A.

ANSTETT: Does the Minister have in front of him a list of the populations of some of the other planning districts? Is that what he was reading from, or did he just have that one? HON. A. ADAM: I think it's available. We can get it. I just have the one here now. MR. A. ANSTETT: I would like to make further inquiries on that subject then when we get to that item. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: I thank you, Mr. Chairman.

To clear up the problems the Member for Springfield is having, may I point out to him and the committee that at the meeting in Newdale a brief was presented to us and one of the opening headlines said that all MLAs got a copy or, if they hadn't, they were to get one. I apologize to him and I will certainly see that he gets a copy from that region. I don't know what happened. We were assured that all members of the House would get one and so there has been a misunderstanding, and I apologize on behalf of those. I will certainly contact them and make certain that the honourable member is favoured with a copy. 313 8

Thu rsday, 26 May, 1983 MR. A. ANSTETT: Thank you very much. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Swan Ri ver. MR. D. GOUR LAY: Just to clarify the matter for the record, the Member for Springfield indicated that during the Sch reyer administration that they had provided a portion of the growth taxes for municipalities. As I recall, this request came from the muni cipa li ties for the government to increase or make this provision available to collect this money for the municipalities and to pay it to them as a municipal or per capita cost-sharing payment.

During this past year is probably the lowest payout that has ever been made to the municipalities under these growth taxes because of the economic situation that we're in. I think it was only something like less than 5 percent increase in the growth taxes. This is certainly the lowest cost-sharing payments that the municipalities have every received since the program was initiatied. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Springfield. MR. A. ANST ETT: Mr . Chairman, agree wholeheartedly with the Member for Swan River.

Since it was the municipalities who made the request, I'd wonder if he could explain to this committee why the previous Conservative Party opposition during the Schreyer period attacked the government for increasing income tax in the province when the Member for Swan River here publi cly credits the municipalities with the responsibility for raising income tax in the province. That being the case, Mr.

Chairman, I am wondering if the Mem ber for Swan River is now going to ensure that the people of Manitoba kno w that it's the mun icipal ities that wanted that tax so that the government doesn't have to carry the can for it. MR. D. BLAKE: Are you bucking for Minister's status, Andy, or what? MR. A. ANSTETT: Just getting even with the cheap shots. MR. CHAI RMAN: 1. ( b)(2)- pass; 1. (c) (1) -p ass; 1. (cX2)- pass; 2.(a) -the Mem ber for Swan River. MR. D.

GOURLAY: I wonder if the Minister could indicate the activities of the Municipal Board during the past year, the number of meetings, if they have that information handy, the types of hearings that have been held, and is it still the policy tor the Municipal Board to travel to Northern Manitoba to conduct hearings? HON. A. ADAM: It's still policy for the Municipal Board to travel in the North. The other information, I don't know. Mr. Cameron has just passed out the Annual Report to the Municipal Board, so that information will be all contained therein. MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr.

Chairman, I should know, but I'm just wondering, were these tabled previously in the House? HON. A. ADAM: Yes, they were. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a)- pass; 2.(b)- pass. Resolution 10 9: Resolved that there be granted to Her Ma jesty a sum not exce eding $351 ,4 00 for Municipal Affairs for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 1984- pass -the Member for Springfield. MR. A. ANSTETT: Mr.

Chairman, before you pass that item, I just had a couple of questions with respect to the Municipal Board and, more particularly, with respect to the process for approvals of subdivisions, just a question of clarification as to the process. As I understand it, appeals to the Municipal Board by private citizens who have been denied subdivisions at the municipal level are heard by the Board, and that in certain conditions the Board overturns decisions that are made by local and municipal councils in terms of denial of applications.

I am wondering if the Mi nister has any records of how often on subdivision applications the Board overturns decisions made by councils. HON. A. ADAM: I am informed that the Municipal Board cannot overturn a decision by a municipality. I believe the decision of the municipality i!' more or less final on the rejection. MR. CHAIRMAN: If it is a rejection. MR. A. ANSTETT: Could the Mi nister clarify, then, how applications for subdivision come before the municipal board if they can only be taken there by the council? HON. A.

ADAM: The ones that would come before the municipal boards are those that are rejected by the approving authorit y. If the municipality rejects the application, that is as far as it goes; it doesn't go any further. If the approving authority, which is the Municipal Planning Branch, or the different departments, whether it be highw '1ys, hydro, telephone, that is what goes before the board and that's what the board deals with. The board can overrule or reject the refusal by the approving authority. MR. A.

ANSTETT: Can the Minister then advise, back to the same original question, what number of initial rejections have been turned over by the board and then approved by the board, either as a percentage or as actual numbers in terms of the applications, let's say for 19 82 or 1981, whatever figures are available now? I'm trying to get some handle on the number of applications that are turned over by the board in terms of responding to local citizen requests in terms of how sensitive the board is to local concerns as opposed to provincial, departme ntal or Crown corporation concerns. HON. A.

AD.AM: Well, there were 972 applications - subd ivisions; 95 of th ese were rejected by the municipality, 7 by the approving authority, and 9 of these were overruled, overturned by the board. MR. A. ANSTETT: Okay, Mr. Chairman, I found the

summary on Page 44 in the Report. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(a) -the Member for Swan River. 313 9

Thu rsd ay, 26 May, 1983 MR. D. GOUR LAY: I wonder if the Minister could indicate any changes in the budgeting and finance procedure during the past year. Has there been any change in this? HON. A. ADAM: There have been no changes, Mr. Chairman, in the procedures. MR. D. GOUR LAY: The amount of salary increases, is that just for the general salary increase, or has there been any new staff in this? HON. A. ADAM: That is just the increment increase. MR. D. GOUR LAY: We could pass 3.(

a) then. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(a)- pass; 3.(b) -the Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOUR LAY: What are the Other Expenditu res as listed in here? What does that involve? HON. A. ADAM: Where are we now? MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(b). HON. A. ADAM: What page is that? HON. A. ADAM: Other Expenditures -do you want a total breakdown? MR. D. GOUR LAY: Just what does that entail? HON. A.

ADAM: It entails fringe benefits, professional fees, membership fees, furniture, stationery supplies, telephone, postage, machine utilization, automobiles, building ma terials, tr avel ling, freight, cartage, advertising, exhibits, publications, education assistance to employees, and the health and education levy. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(b)- pass; 3.(c) -the Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLA Y: With respect to Gr ants to Municipalities in Lieu of Taxes, I note that there is an increase of some 18 or 19 percent. I wonder if the Minister could indicate how was that increase arrived at. HON. A.

ADAM: The increase over last year? MR. D. GOUR LAY: Yes, is it similar to the general tax increase on private property; that this is, you know, a grant in lieu of taxes. I'm wondering; is it based on the same percentage increase on private land, or just how is the increase arrived at from year to year? HON. A. ADAM: It is the same increase as on private land, yes. MR. D. GOURLAY: It includes the general municipal levy as well as school taxes? HON. A. ADAM: Yes, th ere was an incr ease of approxima tely 10 percent over the previous year. MR. D. GOUR LAY: Well, the Minister says 10 percent; it's more than that.

It's closer to 20 percent. HON. A. ADAM: That would include the supplementary or the warrant that we had to pass to make up the shortfall for the previous year; 1981, I guess it was. See, there was a shortfall there of $1 ,484,000.00. So we have to add that total in with the original printed estimate which was $18 , 13 6,000.00. That comes to 19 ,620,000. So, if you take that increase, yes, it's more than 10, but we've added 10 to that figure to arrive at a figure for this year. MR. D. GOURLAY: The normal increase would have been 10 percent approxima tely, but it also included the shortfall from the year before.

HON. A. ADAM: Yes, that's right. MR. D. GOURLAY: So the formula for the increase would be basically general municipal . . . HON. A. ADAM: Grants in lieu of taxes mainly to urban areas, universities; most of that increase goes to the urban areas. MR. D. GOURLAY: But it normally doesn't include the school tax levy, or does it? HON. A. ADAM: Plus new properties that become taxable for grants. MR. D. GOURLAY: School tax levies are factored into this increase? HON. A. ADAM: Yes, I think so. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(c)- pass; 3.(d) -the Member for Swan River. MR. D.

GOURLAY: 3.(d) -the Mi nister indicated that these grants, they have come to an end as far as the federal participation? HON. A. ADAM: Yes, that program is now terminated, and we are still providing assistance, 50 percent of operating losses for urban transit in Brandon, Portage, Flin Flon and Thompson. MR. D. GOURLAY: It doesn't include for the purchase of new buses? HON. A. ADAM: There are none this year. There was some last year in 1981. MR. D. GOUR LAY: The formula for paying grants for operating deficits -has that formula changed in the past year? HON. A.

ADAM: No, I believe it's 50 percent of the operating loss, but I'm not sure whether that increased or not. It's pretty well the same anyway. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(d)- pass; 3.(e) -the Member for Swan River. 3140

Thursday , 26 May, 1983 MR. D. GOUR LAY: I wonder if the Mi nister could indicate the grants for this year, that is the $2 per capita grant for Centennial . HON. A. ADAM: Yes. MR. D. GOURLAY: How many communities does that include for this year? HON. A. ADAM: Thirty-one up to this point in time have applied. There are already some requests for next year that we're receiving. MR. D. GOURLAY: How many Centennials are there this year? HON. A. ADAM: Thirty-one. I'm sorry. We're going too fast for the Chairman, I think. MR. CHAIRMAN: No, it's just for the record. HON. A. ADAM: Thirty-one. MR. D.

GOURLAY: Did the Minister say that there's been 31 since inception, or . HON. A. ADAM: Oh no. MR. D. GOURLAY: .. . 31 this year, period? HON. A. ADAM: This year. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(e)-pass. Resolution 11 0: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $22, 784, 700 for Mu nicipal Affairs for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 1984-p ass. 4.(a) -the Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOUR LAY: Municipal Assessments - I believe the Min ister indicated in his opening remarks that the increase was basically for salaries, there was no new assessors added to the staff? HON. A.

ADAM: The increases generally are for salary increases and there's a reduction of three staff in that department. MR. D. GOURLAY: I wonder if the Minister could explain -the number of assessors has decreased from a year ago by three. HON. A. ADAM: Yes. MR. D. GOUR LAY: Will this ha ve any serious impl ications with respect to reassessments in rural Manitoba? HON. A. ADAM: I believe we've had an increase of 12 the previous year. We requested 12 SYs for the previous year and the reduction is by attrition and retirements, so there's been no terminations of staff. MR. D.

GOURLAY: Is there increased use of computers in the Assessment Branch to speed-up the recording 3141 of assessment and the general work of assessment rolls? HON. A. ADAM: The use of computers are used to some extent in the assess ment rolls. We ha ve undertaken a study to move towards computerization. We did the first phase of that study. It would require substantial amounts of money, if we want to proceed further, to have consulting advice on what kind of a system we'd have to put in place, and we haven't undertaken that as yet. MR. D.

GOURLAY: This then would probably or should decrease the number of assessors that would be req uir ed in the future by incr eased use of the computers? HON. A. ADAM: No, it shouldn' t increase the number of assessors. If you had a computer system in place you'd probably end up with a reduction, I would imagine, once you had the system in place. MR. D. GOURLAY: Yes, that was my question, that the number of assessors would decrease. HON. A. ADAM: Decrease or increase, did you say? MR. D. GOURLAY: Yes, decrease. HON. A. ADAM: Yes, ultimately they would decrease.

It might require more assessments to put the system in place, but ultimately they would probably decrease. MR. D. GOURLAY: The Minister had indicated that about 50 percent of the farm buildings were now assessed in the province? HON. A. ADAM: I believe that's approximately what it is, yes. There is still a lot of work to do in that area and that would be the information that we would really have to have if we wanted to proceed with some of the recommendations of the report. MR. D. GOURLAY: When that figure reaches 100 percent, then the use of computers would relieve much of the work of assessors, would it not?

HON. A. ADAM: Yes, once that information is into the computer system, then they could keep putting it in every year and subtracting, or wh atever the process is. I'm not an expert on computers or an expert on assessment, but certainly that is the direction I believe we have to move in, is in computerization of the system, so that eventually you could have an annual assessment and you could keep it up-to-date. MR. D.

GOUR LAY: When the municipalities are being reassessed, in the past there was always a great amount of difficulty in the fact that there was complaints from many of the farm people with respect to the assessing of farm buildings. In a number of cases, residences would be put on the tax rolls and, of course, others would be assessed, but put in the exempt column. I kno w from my own constitu enc y that when the municipality was reassessed, there seemed to be a great

Thu rsday, 26 May, 1983 deal of dissatisfaction with the approach of assessors, in that the people didn't feel that they explained the process of assessing farm buildings. So it resulted in a great deal of animosity towards assessors, general ly. Has ther e been any approach made to improve the public relations with respect to assessors and rural people? HON. A. ADAM: Yes, there are courses being developed for them and training periods. I would point out that this is one of the most difficult areas that the assessors have to be involved in, and that is, whether or not a farm residence should be assessed or not.

It is one of the areas that I'm sure they would like to see reviewed and redressed, if ever we come up with an assessment system. There's a substantial number of farm buildings that are presently assessed because the off-farm income is greater than on-farm income, but it's very difficult to come into a farmyard, for an assessor, and start asking private questions about your income, I'd like to see your income tax forms, and to get that verified is a very difficult situation for the assessor. It also gives some concern to the farmers the mselves that the y ha ve to be sub jected to that kind of questio ning.

There is ongoing training for assessors. It's a four year course, it's not an easy course. I suppose the assessors should be also trained in diplom acy and public relations. I'm not sure whether that's always the case, and being trained in public relations is not an easy thing to do and being a diplomat is not always the easiest thing to be either. But we would certainly appreciate the views of the Member for Swan River if he wishes to give us the benefit of his wisdom and his advice in this area. We would certainly appreciate it. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, A. Anstett: The Memb er for Swan River. MR. D.

GOURLAY: Well, I can tell the Minister that since the Department of Mu nicipal Affairs opened an Assessment Office in Swan River, I believe it has helped considerably in that general area to have the office there because farm people or urban people, what have you, are free to drop in and seek information and advice from the assessors located there and I think that certainly that has gone a long way to reducing the complaints that I receive because they can, rather than going to their municipal office and maybe not getting as thorough information there as they can from the assessment office, this has certainly been beneficial to the area and I hope the Min ister is receiving some kind of feedback from the area with respect to the service that is being provided.

I believe they also service The Pas area from there and from time to time many people from The Pas are in Swan River and I'm sure are welcome to call at the office. I'm not sure that they do but I just would like to hear any comment from the Min ister with respect to that approach. MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: The Honour able Min ister. HON. A. ADAM: Yes, well I think the more communications that there are with the assessors and the fact that there's an office there in Swan River makes it available to local people. I would like to see an assessor's day there from time to time, or once a year anyway.

I'm not sure whether that's taking place or not. But certainly there should be a coffee and doughnut day for the people to come in and discuss assessment problems, to get to know how the assessment system works. - (I nterjection) - Of course the coffee and the doughnuts are not in our Estimates. But I know that if and when we have a field day in Swan River I know that the Member for Swan River will be there and he will, I'm sure be glad to host a coffee and doughnut day for the assessor. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Swan River can speak for himself. MR. D. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for your assistance.

Well I think the assessment days, that's certainly a good approach. I was just going to suggest that when a municipality is being reassessed that if there couldn't be some kind of advance information for people to take advantage of if they so desire, to assist them in understanding the whole assessing process. I wonder, do the assessors have any handouts as far as assessing guides or factoring tables, or whatever to leave with farm people so that th ey can peruse and better understand how their particular farm buildings are assessed? HON. A.

ADAM: Well, when they do the assessments they always notify the people when the assessor will be there so that they can come in and get an explanation of their assessments. MR. D. GOURLAY: Could the Minister explain that again, please? HON. A. ADAM: Well, when the assessor is in the office, say the office in Swan River, the people are notified to come in, if they want an explanation on their assessments, they can come in and discuss that with the assessor if they have any concerns in that . . . MR. D. GOURLAY: Well, I appreciate that in the case of Swan River. But say, take for instance the community of Roblin.

The R.M. of Shellmouth, say, is being reassessed. How would it be handled there? There's no assessment office in that area. HON. A. ADAM: It takes place, not in the assessor's office but it takes place in the municipal office, in the municipality there. MR. CHAIRMAN� 4.(a) . HON. A. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, I'm not sure whether . . . was there a question raised about a pamphlet? MR. D. GOURLAY: Yes, I just wondered whether there was handout that might be provided to property owners that would give them an idea how the assessor goes about his work of assessing the farm buildings or residences or what have you? HON. A.

ADAM: We do have a number of pamphlets that we're preparing now, as the honourable member 3142

Thu rsday , 26 May, 1983 knows, and we do not have a pamphlet specifically for that purpose but it sounds like a good idea and we'll certainly take it under advisement and look at the costs of providing that kind of pamphlet. But we'll certainly take it under advisement. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Ho nour able Mem ber for Springfield. MR. A. ANSTETT: Yes, Mr. Chairman, two things.

The first point would be contrary to the impression that the Member for Swan River has, certainly in my constituency I ha ve found that the staff of th e Assessment Department have been exceptionally polite, diplomatic and very skilled in dealing with people. I certainly have had very very few complaints about the manner in which staff have dealt with the public in that area.

I' ve certainly had complaints about the results of their dealings on occasion and the way councils have dealt with them at Court of Revision, but tho se are expected and they are not unusual, but I have never had any complaints about the way staff have dealt. So I think your staff are to be commended, Mr. Minister, at least certainly in the Eastman Region operating out of the Steinbach office, for the way they've dealt with my constituents at least, and I don't think they are being partial to my constituents. I am sure they are doing that throughout the whole region. I have some concern though, Mr.

Chairman, about the Minister's talking about a staff cut of three SYs for this current year, and how that is going to affect his ant ici pated completion of farm outbuildings assessment by 1985. I understood during the MARC Committee meetings that, in answer to some questions from committee members and others, the Mi nister and staff indicated that an attempt would be made to complete outbuilding assesment, I believe it was '85 or '86. HON. A. ADAM: The staff advise that will not have any major impact or even minimal impact on services provided.

One was a supervisory position, the other was a draftsman, and one was an assessor. So we have still 11 assessors more, one supervisor less. MR. A. ANSTETT: So we didn't lose three assessors? HON. A. ADAM: No, three staff, three SYs. MR. A. ANSTETT: Three SYs in the branch, but in effect we have 11 more assessors this year than we had in '81-82. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(a) -the Mem ber for Swan River. MR. D. GOUR LAY: I just wanted to clarify the situation with respect to the complaints.

I think that the Director of Assessment appreciates what I was endeavouring to indicate, municipalities where there has been general reassessment. We both attended a meeting in the Swan Valley area where this had happened and we had a fairly lively meeting, a hall full of people, and I think there were some legitimate complaints that were aired. I think those were directed as constructive criticisms to the Assessment Department, and I think they took them as such. I am just raising the question as to what improvements have been derived from that type of meeting.

I am just trying to indicate some of the thoughts I had that would help to improve the PR for assessors. I know I realize it's not an easy job and it's one that if we can reduce the amount of animosity, I think that's all the better. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(a)- pass; 4.(b) ... MR. D. GOURLAY: Other Expenditur es, what would be the reason for the decrease? About $10 0,000 or HON. A. ADAM: Ther e ha s been a reduction in travelling costs. MR. D. GOURLAY: Because of the office in Swan River. HON. A. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, I think that in part was responsible for some reduction there, yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(b)- pass.

Resolution 111 : Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $4,971 ,000 for Municipal Affairs for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 1984-p ass. 5.(a) ... MR. D. GOURLAY: I wonder if the Minister could indicate the number of Municipal Service Officers that HON. A. ADAM: There are six Service Officers that go out to service the municipaliti es. There are six at the present time. MR. D. GOURLAY: How is their work divided? Do they have specific regions that they cover? HON. A. ADAM: Yes. There are six regions, one Service Officer for each region. MR. D.

GOUR LAY: Like there would be one for, say, the Parkland area and one for Eastman. Is that how the boundaries are established? HON. A. ADAM: The regions are not based on that kind of geography such as Parkland. The regions are based more on a pattern where they can go and come back and not too far from a base or a centre from whence they operate. MR. D. GOUR LAY: I see there is about 20 -I'm not sure of the percentage increase. It seems like a fairly substantial increase. What would be the reason for that? It seems like more than general salary increases. HON. A. ADAM: That is general salary increases. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 5.(a)-pass; 5.(b)-p ass. Resolution 11 2: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $1 ,24 1 ,900 for Municipal Affairs for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 1984-pass. 6.(a) -the Member for Swan River. 3143

Thur sday, 26 May, 1983 MR. D. GOURLAY: I wonder if the Minister could indicate the number of residential subdivisions that have been approved during the past year. HON. A. ADAM: We will get that information in short order, Mr. Chairman. There were 972. I'm not too sure if I didn't give that information before the break for supper hour. Maybe not There are 972. MR. D. GOURLAY: How many rejections? HON. A. ADAM: Ninety-five. Those rejections were by the municipal ity, by the council, seven by the approving authority and nine by the Municipal Board. MR . D.

GOURLA Y: The Mini ster ind ica ted th at subdivision approving authority had been granted to Selkirk and also to the Cypress Planning District this past year? HON. A. ADAM: Yes, two of them. MR. D. GOURLAY: There are two districts now that approve their own . . . HON. A. ADAM: That is correct. Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. D. GOUR LAY: Are th ere any other planning districts that are likely to receive this authority this coming year? HON. A. ADAM: There are two or three that are working on that now.

There are some negotiations taking place now, but most of those negotiations are being held in abeyance because of the upcoming municipal elections this fall. Most of them are held in abeyance because of the municipal elections. I suppo se they want to allow a new council to deal with these. Well, maybe the same council but whoever is there after the electio n,. I suppose. MR. D. GOUR LAY: How does the Mi nister find these planning districts that do have the author ity? Is that working out well or do you see any problems with that procedure? HON. A.

ADAM: No, on the contrary it seems to me they seem to be fairly well. MR. D. GOURLAY: What feedback are you getting from the planning districts themselves? Are they happy with how it's working out or are they finding that they're getting a lot more pressure on their doorstep? They can't pass the buck onto the Minister now. HON. A. ADAM: No, it works out very well, I think, yes. It appears to be a desirable direction to go in. MR. D. GOURLAY: There's 49 municipalities, I believe, you indicated that were anticipating planning districts.

Are there any other areas that are looking at this aspect of municipal planning? Any additional municipalities contemplating? HON. A. ADAM: Yes, there are three, I believe, that are in the process of negotiating at the present time to form new planning districts. MR. D. GOUR LAY: Has any advancement been made in the Portage area with respect to a . . . HON. A. ADAM: That is a difficult one there.

That is still under negotiation I believe. - (I nterjection) - Oh, I just understand now that it's been ongoing for quite some time and I have been meeting with -in fact I did arrange a joint meeting once to try and get the two municipalities working together, and I understand it has now been resolved, so t�at there may be some progress there. But just recently, because as of two weeks ago it was still not finalized. - (Int erjection) - It was last week I understand that they have now come to an arrangement that is satisfactory to both municipalitie s. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Mem ber for Gladstone. MRS. C.

OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Have the two planning di stricts tha t ha d their approving authority, have they got their by-laws in place? Both of them? HON. A. ADAM: Could you pull the microphone in to talk. MRS. C. OLESON: Sorry. No, I was just wondering if the two planning districts that have their approving authority have got their by-laws in place? HON. A. ADAM: The zoning by-laws are not in place yet. MRS. C. OLESON: They're not? HON. A. ADAM: No. The planning . Mr. Chairman, is there a disposition that we could finish tonight? MR. D. GOURLAY: Yes, I think we can. It may run a little bit over. MRS. C.

OLESON: I'm wondering if the Minister, if he has a map available that would indicate the location of all the planning districts in the province. HON. A. ADAM: Yes. MRS. C. OLESON: I believe I have at one time seen a map like that. Do you have any available? HON. A. ADAM: I think we do, yes. Mr. Chairman, we will make one available for the honourable member. MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.(a) -the Honourable Member for Springfield. MR. A. ANSTETT: Mr.

Chairman, since we're now in this item, and staff are available, I'm wondering if the Mi nister could tell me the average population size of the planning districts that have been approved to date? Or if he doesn't have the average, if he can give me the largest, the smallest, and some indication of what the population ranges are please? 3144

Thu rsday , 26 May, 1983 HON. A. ADAM: I would point out, first of all, that the population is not the criteria for setting up a planning district. I would preface my remarks with that. MR. A. ANSTETT: Do you have a square miles then, too? HON. A. ADAM: That may not be a criteria either. A MEMBER: What is the crit8ria? MR. A. ANSTETT: I know ifs not. HON. A. ADAM: The criteria is to get two or more municipalities working and co-operating togeth er. That is the idea and the criteria behind the planning districts.

As far as the population counts are concerned, the Cypress Planning District is 5, 14 0; Selkirk and planning area includes the Town of Selkirk, I guess, there's 24,336; Broken head, Beausej our, Broke nhead and Garson Village, and so on there's 5,81 2; M.S .T.W is 15 ,246; Thompson Planning District is the Town of Mystery Lake, and LGD in the Town of Thompson is 14. 3 19. MR. A. ANSTETT: What is M.S .T.W? Oh, right. MRS. C. OLESON: Morden, Stanley, Winkler. MR. A. ANSTETT: Oh, right. HON. A. ADAM: M. S.T.W is 15 ,246. So there's a variation.

Eastern Interlake is 4, 182; Neepawa and area Planning District is 6,083; South Interlake Planning District is 10 ,793; South Riding Mount ain Planning District is 4,872; Brandon and area Planning District is 41 ,532; Eastern Interlake Planning District is 8,247; Nor-Mac Planning District is 3,842 - that is the village of MacGregor and Norfolk R.M.; Killarney and area planning is 3,694; Boyne Planning District is 5, 11 5; Lac du Bonnet is 3,224. MR. A. ANSTETT: Could the Minister then confirm that of the 16, probably half of them are 6,000 or less? HON. A. ADAM: I would say that, yes. MR. A.

ANSTETT: Could the Minister advise then , Mr.

Chairman, since his criteria basically appear to be restricted solely to the qu estion of two or more mun icip alities co-opera ting to ge ther , and since historically the success of the planninri district formula, since it was brought in under the new Planning Act, I believe, in 1975, has been in getting that co-operation over basically larger geographical areas, although the Act doesn't state that, it's an attempt to encompass in a planning formula a larger geographical area and the requirement for two or more municipalities, as much as it is intende d to capture a popu la tion in a geographical area, that that plan's been relatively successful.

In view of that, I'm wondering if the Minister would consider the fact that th ere are some municipalities in the province, and obviously Springfield is one of them which have very large populations on their own, have several towns and villages within the municipality which although they're not incorpo rated in many other parts of the province, had they been incorporated would have entitled the municipality to form a planning district within the external peripheral boundaries of that municipal ity.

In other words, are there not -for example, the Brokenhe ad-Beausejour Planning District -areas where planning districts have been formed that are solely within the boundaries of one rural municipality and then contained therein certain incorporated villages or towns. I ask that question because the R.M. of Springfield has a population of 9,000, and is caught on the horns of its location where it cannot readily form with the neighbouring municipality because of its proximity to the City of Winnipeg, the Agassiz Forest, the existence of the Brokenhead-Beausejour Planning District on the north, on one side.

I am wondering if the Mi nister has seriously looked at how this inhibits, by requiring the two mun icipality or mo re requirement, not only Springfield, but probably other municipalities in other areas of the province of which I am not aware who have populations in the 7,000, 8,000, 9,000, 10 ,000 in a rural municipality. I suspect there aren't many. I don't know of any other than Springfield at the present time, but there may be a few others, perhaps a couple, whatever.

I am wondering how the Minister can justify when the original legislation wasn't brought in to force two municipalities to get togeth er, but rather the intent of the legislation was to encompass a geographical area with a certain size population into a manageable, useful, realistic planning unit; why one municipality which meets th ose criteria has not been considered for some sort of exception from that rule. HON. A. ADAM: First of all, I would point out that Springfield is not unique in the situation that they are having difficulty in finding another municipality to join with.

We have had other municipalities that have come forward with the same request; that we have tried and tried and tried, and we can't find another municipality to join with us, and we want to go it alone. We have resisted those applications. Subsequently, those municipaliti es that felt that it was just hopeless have now come forward and are now talking to other municipalities. That is the intent of The Planning Act is to get two or more municipalities to work together and co-operate together.

I think there are two cases now or at least one that I know of recently that had been a sore point for them for a number of years that are now talking to one another, and the same situation as we had in -so if we were to set a precedent of allowing one municipality to go it alone and form its own planning district, then you are opening the doors to a whole host of other municipalities coming forward with the same requests. If you do it for one, we would have some difficulty in not doing it for another municipality.

The costs, I believe, would also increase if we were to do it for different municipalities, rather than having two or more municipalities toget her. So that is the reason why they have looked at it. The staff have considered it when there have been requests, but up to this point in time we do not feel that we should move in that direction. We still encourage 3145

Thu rsday , 26 May, 1983 those municipalities, particularly those who are in the additional zone, who are under the aegis of the City of Wi nnipeg or have to deal with the City of Winnipeg MR. A. ANSTETT: Let's not get into that. HON. A. ADAM: I know that has been a sore point with some of them, and we still try to encourage them to join in with another municipality to form a district if they want to do their own planning. I don't know what else I could add to that, Mr. Chairman. MR. A. ANSTETT: Mr.

Chairman, I would ask the Minister: What was the size of the rural municipalities which wanted to form their own planning districts, or were any of the other two local governments, that the Mi nister says wanted to go it alone, rural municipalitie s or were th ey towns or cities? If th ey were rural municipali ties, what was their population? HON. A. ADAM: I'll take that as notice, Mr. Chairman. I would have to check into that, but as I mentioned a while ago, population is not the criteria. Area is not really the criteria. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, is it not correct, to the Min ister, that the Mi nister brought in

an Act at the last Session of the Legislature which made it clear that there legally had to be two or more municipalities to form a planning district? HON. A. ADAM: Yes. MR. G. MERCIER: My first comment to the Memb er for Springfield that he either missed the caucus meeting last year when the Minister reviewed the provisions of that Act with the caucus before introducing it, or else he lost the argument.

But I want to say to him and to the Minis ter that I think he makes a valid argument; that there are some municipalities like Springfield and like the R.M. of Macdonald who are certainly large enough in terms of size and population to justify going through the process and adopting a development plan and then having dele gated to them the exclu sive planning authority. I think the legislation last year was wrong, but perhaps the Mem ber for Springfield, at least having access to the government caucus, might be able to change that. I can't particularly change that in my present position. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 6.(a)- pass; 6.(b)- pass. Resolution 11 3: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,933, 700 for Municipal Affairs for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1984-passf MR. CHAIRMAN: 7.(a) -the Mem ber for Swan River. MR. D. GOUR LAY: With respect to the Provincial Land Use poli cies, ha ve th ere been any changes or amendments made to the . . . HON. A. ADAM: Essential ly, no. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

A question to the Min ister, some time ago I was made aware that there would be a group meeting with the Provincial Land Use Comm ittee dealing with the future use of the Saskeram area. Has a meeting taken place recently dealing with that particular future use of that land in the Pasquia area? HON. A. ADAM: If the Honourable Member for Arthur is saying that a group of people have met recently with the Provincial Land Use Committee . . . MR. J. DOWNEY: I was asking the question, Mr.

Chairman, if they had met, a delegation from the Saskeram area, from The Pas area, if they had met to discuss with the Land Use Committee the future use of the Saskeram? HON. A. ADAM: No, Mr. Chairman. MR. J. DOWNEY: Was there a request to meet, Mr. Chairman? HON. A. ADAM: No, Mr. Chairman. In all fairness to the honourable member, I should indicate to him that the Pr ovincial Land Use Commit tee is really a subcomm ittee of Cabinet, and it's there to speed up the process that Cabinet would have to do as a whole, and as such we don't meet with lobb y groups.

We deal with items tha t are brought forward by different Ministers that want a clearing house for Cabinet. So, perhaps with that explanation, it's my understanding the Provincial Land Use Committee has -at least not in our time, and I'm not sure whether in the honourable member's term of office whether that was the case - but it's my understanding that we don't meet with ... MR. J. DOWNEY: Well, Mr. Chairman, I have difficulty with that because I think it's unusual that a committee of Cabinet not meet with a group in society.

Cabinet meets with different groups in society, whether they're lobb y, or whether they're discussing issues on any matters. Normal ly, it's quite regular to have briefs presented to them, and the Pr ovincial Land Use Committee, I agree, is a committee of Cabinet. However, I think that it was quite prepared during our term of office to meet with individuals who had specific concerns about land use. Is the Minister of Municipal Affairs not on that Land Use Committee? HON. A. ADAM: Yes. Mr. Chairman, I'm on that Land Use Comm ittee.

I believe that the process is, and it's my understanding that the group that he speaks of may have met with the Mi nister of Natural Resources. They would come to the Mi nister with a problem and deal with the Minister, and if the Minister felt that should be dealt by a larger group, he would maybe bring it to PLUC or to Cabinet and so on. That is the process that we have been operating on since I have been a member of the . . .

I will certainly undertake to find out what the policy was previous to the change of government, or whether or not the Provincial Land Use Committee was meeting every delegation that wanted to come in to talk to the Provincial Land Use Committee. 3146

Thu rsday , 26 May, 1983 We've only had one request to my knowledge, and it was from a group that was associated with another umbrella group, and they wanted to shift away from the umbrella group to go on their own and lob by, although the Cabinet met on an annual basis with the umbrella group. Under those conditions, we suggested that they should work through their association and that they met once a year. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairmar., for a government that's suppo sed to be open, it all at once has become very closed and not prepared to meet with different groups in society.

The Minister of Municipal Affairs says that he's now not prepared to meet with different groups with the Provincial Land Use Committee. I will ask specifical ly, if the Minister will find out if there was a request to meet with them on May 10 th to discuss the future use of the Saskeram area by a group of The Pas farmers who are interested in what the present government are going to do with it?

I was informed that they had a meeting set up for May 10 th with the Provincial Land Use Committee, and for some particular reason, the government either refused them or because of inconvenience of timing of their getting together or the ability to get together , that meeting didn't take place. That's why I ask if there had been any other meetings or any other requests? I am aware of one that had been requested, and the people were intending to come and meet with the government to let their thoughts be known, but subsequent to that had been turned down. That's why I asked you if there had been any other meetings?

But I will ask the Minister, will he, as a member of PLUC Committee, the member responsible for Municipal Affairs in an area which could develop some taxes through the dev elopment of a land base in that particular region, is he prepared to take a position and allow that group to meet with the Provincial Land Use Comm ittee so they know what the government's polic y is before it either goes to Cabinet or is he going to allow the one Minister to handle it? HON. A. ADAM: Mr.

Chairman, I believe that a group such as the Saskeram farmers in that area would want to meet with some Mi nisters perhaps that are not members of the Provincial Land Use Comm ittee. They may want to meet with the Mi nister of Agriculture, the Minister of Natural Resources; they may want to meet with the Mi nister of Northern Affairs, I'm not sure which group, you know. It may well be that these members are members of the Provincial Land Use Committee, but, nevertheless, it seems to me that would be the process of coming forward.

I know that I, at no time have ever turned down to meet anyone who wanted to speak with me in my office, and I don't see the role of the provincial .. .. I don't think we would be able to do any work really, if we were to open the doors. The Provincial Land Use Comm ittee always has a very heavy agenda and heavy issues, otherwise they wouldn't come there. This is a special group that is dealing with very special concerns, and I know the Saskeram issue is a special concern.

Nevertheless, if we were to open the door to one group, we would have to open the door to everybody and that would be, I believe, pretty difficult for the Provincial Land Use Committee to undertake. But I will certainly take under advisement and inquire as to whether -I'm unaware that there was a request made to the Provincial Land Use Committee, but there could be a request made that I wouldn't be aware of, because I'm not the chairman of the PLUC, and there may have been a request that I'm unaware of. MR. J. DOWNEY: Well, Mr.

Chairman, we have the Mi nister of Municipal Affairs now admitting that they are operating a closed-door government and . . . HON. A. ADAM: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister has a point of order. HON. A. ADAM: The Member for Arthur has the habit of always trying to put statements on the record that are inaccurate. He tries to put words in your mouth. He does it in the House, he does it here and it's beneath his dignity as a member of the Legislative Assembly.

I think he should be more courteous, as we are courteous to him, and as the communications that I have with his colleagues are excellent, I would hope that the member would not try to posture or play politics. MR. CHAIRMAN: Be a nice guy. The Mem ber for Arthur. llllR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, far be it from the Member for Arthur to want to play politics. I want to make that very cle ar. Mr. Chairman, I'm here because I'm seriously concerned about the direction that this clo sed-door go vernment is taking the people of Manitoba in their mismanagement of government. Mr.

Chairman, the Mi nister is now admitting that he's sitting on a Provincial Land Use Committee, that he doesn't know who the members are, it reports to him, he has to get the funding for it. Could the Min ister, or would the Minister find out who is on the Provincial Land Use Committee so that he could inform us at some future time? As well, Mr.

Chairman, I would think that in an issue so important to an area of the province like The Pas and that the use of a large portion of land is going to be determined over the next few months by the signing of, or the not signing of, an agreement with Ducks Unlimited and the future use of that region. It wouldn't be a bad idea that the Provincial Land Use Committee take a look at it, because I do think it will eventually be a full Cabinet decision and a recommendation should come through from PLUG.

However, I again request that he inform me -he doesn't have to do it tonight -but I would hope he would inform me at some time in the near future. As well, Mr. Chairman, I would also like to impress upon him to meet with some of his colleagues to find out precisely what the Provincial Land Use Committee could inform him what their purpose is, if he doesn't understand, and possibly could be of help to him in future direction of his people. That, Mr.

Chairman, will be the comments that I have, and I would hope that within a day or two, the Minister could respond to my questions on the meetings that have or have not been asked for and what the responses to them were from the Land Use Comm it tee to 3147

Thu rsday, 26 May, 1983 particularly the Saskeram people who, I know, were planning to come in on May 10th to meet with him and for some reason were rejected. HON. A. ADAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, I indicated that I would take that particular question under notice as to whether there had been a request; and if there had been a rejection of that meeting or no n-acceptance of that meeting, I reject outright the suggestion that this is not an open government. I don't think there ever has been a more open government in the Province of Manitoba, even more open than the previous NOP Government, Mr. Chairman.

I will take that under ... MR. J. DOWNEY: Take exception to that - I would - from your Member for Springfield, that you leak like a sieve. HON. A. ADAM: I want to advise the honourable member that the members of the Provincial Land Use Comm ittee, the Honourable Bill Uruski is chairing the meeting, is chairman; Mr. Cowan is the vice-chair; Honourable Mr. Uskiw; myself; the Honourable Min ister of Natural Resources, Mr. Mack ling; the Minister of Community Services, Mr. Plohman ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Government Services. HON. A. ADAM: . . .

Government Services; and the Minister of Energy and Mines; there are seven members. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOUR LAY: How many meetings has the PLUG Comm ittee held during the past year? HON. A. ADAM: We don't have an exact number, but it appears between about 10 and 12 in the last year. As I mentioned before, the makeup of the Provincial Land Use Comm ittee is not really set up as a forum for lobby groups. It's a sub-committee of Cabinet. MR. CHAIRMAN: 7.(a) -the Mem ber for Swan River. MR. D. GOUR LAY: The Minister said that there wasn't an exact number of meetings.

You don't have them set up on a regular basis. You just meet when you feel that you have some business to do? HON. A. ADAM: I guess the major problem is to get all the Min ister or at least a quorum of Ministers when it's convenient to get the Ministers together and when there's some major issues that come forward. The Saskeram issue may come to PLUG; it may do that. It may come there if the Minister responsible requests that it be put on the agenda and it'll be discussed there.

That's the process; but it's certainly not the process to be lob bied by different groups, one group coming in supporting something, and another group coming in and lobb ying on the other side of the question. Now, what the Member for Arthur is saying here is that we should allow the people in support of the Saskeram being used for agriculture, we should allow them to come in and then we should allow the wildli fe people, the people who want wild life and waterfowl, and we'd have a number of groups. We'd have the Natives coming in and lobbying for a different issue; on the same issue, but in a different position.

If we opened the door for one, we'd have to open the door for everybody, and I don't see how the Provincial Land Use Comm ittee could operate under those conditions. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, the Minister has caused me more difficulty. If that isn't the purpo se for the meetings with the different people, to hear their viewpoints on different issues, then what kind of a government do we ha ve? Do we have a totally dictating socialistic government who have their minds made up on everything and are not prepared to meet with groups in society who have a particular interest?

Is that what he's saying? HON. A. ADAM: No. MR. J. DOWNEY: He's saying precisely that; that his mind is made up, he's not prepared to meet with any group in society who have an idea or a way in which they would like to see government policy go. I cannot, for the life of me, understand how he keeps sayings he's an open government. He is totally a closed-minded, clo sed-shop govern ment, not prepared, and has admitted on the record tonight, Mr. Chairman, that he doesn't want to meet with people who are interested in their own well-being.

If that is a misunderstanding of mine, then I would hope the Minister would correct it ... MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. J. DOWNEY: . . . because he has told us, Mr. Chairman - I am not finished, please. He, Mr. Chairman, has told us that he's not prepared to meet with people who have an interest in society or their well-being, that it's not his purpose. He makes up his mind and goes from there. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is the member finished? The Honourable Min ister. HON. A.

ADAM: I want to say that the Member for Arthur is again distorting the facts, as is his usual practice, misrep rese nting or misint erpreting my remarks. I just finished saying, Mr. Chairman, that this is the most open government that the Province of Manitoba has ever had . . . MR. J. DOWNEY: You just said the opp osite. You won't meet with groups. HON. A. ADAM: I'm sorry that the Mi nister of Natural Resources is not here. He has very likely met with those people. - (I nterjection) - He may have met with those people. I will meet with them.

I have offered to meet with other groups and we are offering to meet with any group, but in the proper forum. MR. J. DOWNEY: What is the proper forum? 3148

Thu rsday , 26 May, 1983 HON. A. ADAM: The proper forum is to contact the Ministers responsible for the . . . MRS. C. OLESON: We're right back to Square One. HON. A. ADAM: Well, the Honourable Member for Gladstone says we're back to Square One. If there is a concern in The Pas, with some people there in regard to agriculture, they should contact the Minister of Agriculture. If it has to do with Natural Resources, if there's a joint .. MR. J. DOWNEY: I wouldn't contact my member up there eith er, if I were you. HON. A. ADAM: If there's a joint interdepartment responsibil ity, the two Ministers get toget her.

We are arranging meetings constantly. We met last Sunday, while all members of the Legislature were out at the lake, or having a good time, or down to the cottage, we met with the people from Lynn Lake to deal with the mine question, last Sunday at 11 o'clock. There were a number of Ministers there that came in. That is the way that it's done, and that is the best way that it's done. We met with the Mi nisters responsible for the Town of Leaf Rapids and the Minister of Energy and Mines and the Minister of Northern Affairs, and I'm sure that my predecessor did the same.

I would have no doubt that the former Minister of Agriculture, the now Member for Arthur, did the same thing when he was around, although maybe not as often. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, we have now got the Minister saying a completely different thing than he said five minutes ago. HON. A. ADAM: Not a thing, not a word different. MR. J. DOWNEY: Completely different. HON. A. ADAM: Not a word different. MR. J. DOWNEY: He's now saying he's not only meeting, he is flying around to meet them. When most people are going to church, he is going to meet with them. Mr.

Chairman, the further question to the Minister, because he said he'd meet with the Saskeram people, the farm community and those people interested, will he now then invite the Minister of Agriculture, the Minister of Natural Resources and as many other Provincial Land Use Committee Mi nist?-rs as available to go to The Pas and meet with them seeing as he wou ldn't meet with them he re, said it is not his responsibility to meet with them here, but he has now changed and he is going to meet with those different interest groups in society by going out to see them.

Will he go out to The Pas and meet with th ose people befor e the signing of the agr eement with Ducks Unlimited if that's what their program is for the 1st of July, Mr. Chairman? HON. A. ADAM: The lead Mi nisters on the Saskeram and the agreement with Ducks Unlimited would be the Min ister of Natural Resources and the Minister of Agriculture. I would not want to go over the heads of th ose Ministers. I would be very much concerned if the Mi nister of Natu ral Resou rces or the Min ister of Agriculture sent a message out to the Union of Manitoba Municipalities and said, we want to talk to you.

I would hope that I would be the lead Minister on any arranging that kind of a meeting. I will convey the honourable member's remarks to my colleagues and bring the matter to their attention that the member raised this concern here at this meeting, perhaps, Mr. Chairman, out of order, because we are not dealing with the Saskeram issue here. But being as I am a member of the PLUC Committee, I will take his message to the Chairman and say that the member has made that request. MR. CHAIRMAN: 7.(a)- pass; 7.(b)- pass.

Resolution 11 4: Resolved that there be granted to Her Ma jesty a sum not exceed ing $364,500 for Municipal Affairs for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 1984- pass. 8.-the Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: The Estimates show $1. 5 million budgeted for this year in Main Street Manitoba. There was 1. 5 million budgeted last year. Was that allowed to carry over so that there is now $3 million available for this year? HON. A. ADAM: No, it lapses and then is requested in the new Estimates. MR. D.

GOURLAY: The project that was approved for Erickson last year, there was no money flowed under that approval? HON. A. ADAM: Not last year, because the Community of Erickson worked over the fall months to get their project together and the season for doing the work, of course, is not conducive in the wintertime to do that kind of work. So what they did is try and prepare their program, get it through and accepted to proceed for the spring. That was their intention. MR. D. GOURLAY: Is the work at Erickson under way at the present time, some of it? HON. A. ADAM: My understanding is that it has begun, yes, already.

MR. D. GOU RLAY: The Minister indicated that with the Erickson project and the two other projects that ha ve received tentativ e app roval, that the total expendit ures amount to 800-and-some tho usand dolla rs? HON. A. ADAM: The Erickson proposal was approved. The reason why we approved these two projects in principle was to speed up the process - (I nterjection) no. If the honourable member will allow me to explain, he will understand. When the applications come forward, there is a rough estimate of what the total projects will cost both on the public side and the private sector side.

These are only rough estimates. Now the problem is, if we go to 3149

Thursday , 26 May, 1983 get authority on an O.C. in Cabinet, these are only estimates. The process should be that the application when it comes in, th ere may be some slight modifications, there may be some changes after the project comes in. So rather than send the projects back and get the estimates on the projects to get them tendered to have an exact figure of what the project's going to cost, what we have decided to do is give tentative approval to the projects and then get the tenders in later. So then we can go back with an O.C. to Cabinet and have the exact figure so that we don't have to go back.

As in the case of Erickson, we approved the amount. When they went back to tenders, the figures didn't come out exactly the same, so we will have to go back with another 0.C. to make up the difference at a future date. That is the reason why we've changed it a little bit so that ... MR. D. GOURLAY: Did the Minister not indicate that with the three approvals to date that there was some $800-odd thousand estimated? HON. A. ADAM: Yes. That's an estimate. MR. D. GOURLAY: What was the exact figure? HON. A. ADAM: $885,230.00. MR. D. GOURLAY: So there are roughly $600,000 left for the ... MR. A.

ANSTETT: That's going into Springfield. HON. A. ADAM: The provincial side, that is the total, that is an estimate of the total expenditure, both the municipal expenditures . . . MR. D. GOUR LAY: That's not the part of the $1. 5 mill ion. HON. A. ADAM: No. The provincial portion of that figure is 527,770.00. That is a global figure of what the muni cipal iti es sha re and the priv ate storefront renovations share as well. That's the total amount. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, again we have the Mi nister of Municipal Affairs putting up a big front, but nothing to go along with it. The three projects that he has app roved have been all he's been able to do in the last two years . . . HON. A. ADAM: Three years, did you say? MR. J. DOWNEY: Two years, I said -advertising all over Manitoba was the end-all and the be-all of the economic development and a major thrust for the government. Again it's a demonstration of their inability to do anything and get on with the job of assisting any Manitobans. There was in the criteria, Mr.

Chairman, a requirement that before any town or village would get support under the Main Street Manitoba Program that they had to be incorporated. Is that still a requirement? HON. A. ADAM: Any municipality could apply, providing they have a main street. You got to have a main street to apply. MR. J. DOWNEY: I agree, Mr.

Chairman, but there are quite a few municipalities that have fairly large towns, uni nco rp orated to wns in their communit ies, unincorporated villages in their communities that feel they should qual ify, but because of the requirement that they have to go do the municipality, and the municipality have to make the decision of which towns or villages are going to get support, it's been pretty much dropped. I would ask the Minister if he wouldn't reconsider the need for a town or a community to be incorporated to qual ify for the program?

What is wrong with providing upgrading for a main street in a town in Manitoba, if it isn't an incorp orated village? I have no difficulty with that. I think the Min ister should be more flexible and he would get a lot more support on the program that he's trying to say is such a great program. HON. A. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, I know the member wasn't here before when we discussed this and I want to repeat my words.

My comments in that, despite the efforts by such members as the Mem ber for Arthur to downgrade this program and to downplay the Main Street Program, that I said all along that it would be a good program, there'd be a lot of interest. We have 38 or 30-some applications now. There are 13 that are in active negotiations. There are a number, at the present time, in the advanced stages of negotiations and completion and I said all along that it would be a success, and it has been a success.

We have learned along the way, as we went along, we did find out that getting organized at the local level was not as easy as we had anticipated, as the Member for Swan River is aware in his own area, but I think it's a success. This is the construction season. There's no way that people could have started last fall. It's a good program. To deal with the other comments made by the mem ber, and that is, to negotia te with an unincorporated village, to deal with an unincorporated village, the problem there is that that unincorporated village would have to deal through its R.M. in order to get funding.

We're dealing with incorp orated municipalities and even if an unincorporated village wanted to enter, they can enter, but they have to work through the munic ipal ity because the munic ipality controls the funds, the LGD, or the municipality controls the fund. So it would have to go through there in any even t, because any funds that belong to the unincorporated village are held in trust by the Local Government District or the municipality. That's my understanding of it is, the UVD's and so on. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister is again saying that he's inflexible and not prepared to listen to the people of Manitoba who are requesting support for a Main Street Program in unincorporated villages, 315 0

Thu rsday, 26 May, 1983 and I'll accept that. If he's inflexible, well, then let the people make the judg ment on him. Further to that, Mr. Chairman . . . MR. A. ANSTETT: Jimmy, that's a crock and you know it. MR. J. DOWNEY: It appears that there are some 13 applications that he said in advanced stages . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, could we have order here please? MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, it appears that we have 13 towns that are in advanced stages of approval. There's going to be a knot in the rope, Mr.

Chairman, because there's only $1 million left to give to 13 towns and he's used $300,000 per town now, if he's approved three towns, and used approxima tely $900,000.00. There will be very little hope for the 13 towns that are expecting support to get much out of $1 million. In fact, he might as well start sending them letters right now, saying he doesn't have funding for a program that he's got in place. He has inadequate funding for the applications that he's accepted. He said he's got 30-some applications that he's dealing with.

Thirteen of them are advanced, but he's only got $1 million in which. to support them. He spent 800-and-some thousand on thr ee towns . . . A MEMBER: He hasn't spent anything. MR. J. DOWNEY: That's right. He hasn't spent anything. He can't get it flowing. Mr. Chairman, he's got 13 towns waiting for approval. He's got $1 million to serve them. He's got 30-some other applications. At the rate he is going, it'll probably be 15 years before he gets to the final application, Mr. Chairman. He is not coming straight to the communities. He's not coming clean with them .

He's playing political games with them, misleading them, telling them that he's dealing with their applications and when he does deal with them, he has to write back and say he hasn't got any funds for them. It's right here. He hasn't got any money in his appropriation for it. Who is he trying to kid? He's not fooling this committee and he's not fooling the municipalities or the towns. He doesn't have the money to deal with the applications he's now saying are in advanced stages. MR. A. ANSTETT: The last governm2nt program that ran out of money was your hog program. HON. A. ADAM: Mr.

Chairman, dealing with the first question of the honourable member, in regard to the comments that he wanted to put on the record that we are not prepared to deal with unincorporated villages. The UVD of Austin . . HON. J. PLOHMAN: Don't count your chickens before they hatch, Downey. HON. A. ADAM: I wonder if I could have a little order and I would talk. 3151 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mi nister has the flo or. HON. A. ADAM: The UVD of Austin and I guess it's in the - I see a big smile on the Member for Gladstone.

The UVD of Austin is working with the Council of Norfolk and they are working on an applicaton, so I would ask the honourable member to swallow back his words. Also, if the UVD of Res ton, which I believe is in the Honourable Member for Arthur's constituency, want to apply, they can approach the R.M. of Pipestone and work through that R.M. So I don't know what's wrong with the member. They want it both ways, Mr. Chairman. They crit icize the deficit. They crit icize excessive spending and we . . . MR. J. DOWNEY: Well, we're criticizing you for false advertising. Thirteen towns and a million dollars. HON. A.

ADAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, there are 13 towns that are negotiating. Some of those towns will not be ready to go into construction until probably 1984. This is an ongoing program and as the money is available, we will be funding. We have only funded, up to this point in time, a little more than $500,000, $520,000.00. So we still have a substantial amc :.mt available and I think that the Honourable Member for Arthur is being really unfair. I know that he would like the program to fail, as he would like to see everything else fail.

I think everything that the honourable member does is based on politicial expediency . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: No imputation please. HON. A. ADAM: I would think, as I said before, the program is a good program and that's what disturbs the honourable member. There's been too much interest displayed for this program. They would have hoped that it would have flopped to begin with. It's a success program and I want to say that in three, four years from now, there will be quite a number of towns that will have improved and revitalized their programs.

I think this is good for Manitoba and I'm pleased for the Mem ber for Swan River that his town has got one. I congratulate their initiative and to the people there for what they've done, and I hope that many more towns will come forward, and I hope that we have less negative vision and have more positive vision. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: I was wondering how the funding for this program is going to take place. Will a community have to be completely finished with their project before any money flows to it, or will there be interim payments? H

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-2-75b
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Volume / chapter	32nd 2nd hansardpdf 75b.pdf
Language	en
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