Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 68 (34th Legislature, 2nd Session)

34-2-68

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MA NITOBA Thursday , November 9, 1989. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Hon. James Downey (Minist er responsible for Seniors): Mr. Speaker, I have a short min isterial statement I would like to make. As Min ister responsible for Seniors and in view of the fact that we will not be sitting tomorrow, the day before Remembrance Day, I have a brief statement as it relates to Remembrance Day in this country. On November 11, 19 18, the guns of World War I were silenced. Ever since, Canadians have set aside November 11 as a time to pause and remember.

Our uniformed men and women served in two World Wars, the Korean War, and other conflicts and peacekeeping efforts. Many gave their lives. They all gave their youth, their hopes, and their dreams. We pay tribute to those people and their memories. They fought to protect the freedoms we enjoy and to ensure that our children might cont inue to take full advantage of the opportunities this country provides without fear of military aggression. We in Canada continue to enjoy those freedoms, but unfortunately this is not the case around the world. Many are still seeking these freedoms.

We want them to clearly know that our thoughts and support are with them. To the Legion members and their families, who continue to ensure that the memory of those who paid the supreme sacrifice is kept alive and well, we are proud of you, and we salute you lest we forget, let us remember. NON-POLITICAL STATEMENTS Mr. William Chornopyski (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, may I have leave to make a non-political statement? Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member does not need !eave. Mr. Chornopyski: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As the years slip by with what seems to be increasing speed and our memories dim to what the war was all about, we have to stop and think. Those of us who are old enough to remember those days, first of all, recall the ones who served their country and never returned-the brothers and sisters, neighbours and friends who gave their lives. For some reason that is increasingly hard to justify.

For the younger people, it is even a greater mystery why such a situat ion should have occur red that thousands upon thousands of men and women should leave their homes and loved ones to do battle in some distant land overseas, but you only have to watch television news and read the newspapers to realize man's inhuman ity to man continues this very day in many parts of this world. * (13 35) We may feel helpless to stop wars, as we felt when our country was drawn into conflict, but we do have an obligation to the coming generations to not forget those who made the supreme sacrifice.

We can pray that our leaders will do all they can to prevent conflict, to make it possible for all people to live in peace. At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we shall remember them. Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, I am very honoured on behalf of my caucus to respond to the Min ister for Senior's (Mr. Downey) ministerial statement on Remembrance Day, to join with everyone in this House to take note of the signific ance of this date and recommend its commemoration to all the people of Manitoba. I cannot speak with the same personal involvement that the Member for Burrows (Mr.

Chornopyski) has spoken with, and I cannot bring the same passion that he has brought to this Chamber, but I can speak from a bit of personal experience, having a father who served in World War II and in fact say that I am here because my father met my mother in the liberation of Holland. So this day is a very important day for me, and it is a very imp ortant day for all Members in this Chamber. We want to, as Members of this caucus, join with all others in this Chamber and recognize the sacrifice of thousands and thousands of Canadians in that Great War.

We want to pay tribute to those families who have lost loved ones; we want to remember the work of the Legion in keeping the memory alive; and we want to join with everyone to recommit ourselves to find and achieve worldwide peace. Thank you. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct Honou rable Members' attention to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon Councillor Jae Eadie from the City of Winnipeg, who was elected I believe yesterday to be the presiding officer of the City of Winnipeg.

On behalf of all Honourable Members, I congratulate you and welcome you here this afternoon. Also with us this afternoon we have from the Neepawa Area Collegiate, fifty Grade 11 students. They are under the direction of Mr. Wayne Hollier. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Min ister of the Environment (Mr. Cummi ngs). On behalf of all Honourable Members, I welcome you here this afternoon. 2682

Thursday, November 9, 1989 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Instructor Decertification Sexual Abuse Charges Mrs. Iva Yeo (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Speaker, another tragic situation has been brought to my attention regarding one of Manitoba's teachers. Once again there has been a gross miscarriage of justice against ind ividual who was char ged with sexual assau lt, physically and forceably removed from his classroom in a small Manitoba communit y, and today remains still unemp loyed despite the fact that all charges were dropped last August.

Oh, yes, we mu st protect Manitoba's children, but so must we guard against the injustices to our teachers. My question to the Minister of Education is this: can he tell the House what meaningful investigation took place by his department or in fact by the school division prior to this teacher from Rivers, Manitoba, having his teaching certificate removed and his sal ary discontinued? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, over the last year we have had some very unusual and unfortunate events with regard to sexual abuse or alleged sexual abuse coming to light.

Because of this, certain measures had to be taken. One of those measures was to improve the Act, The Child Abuse Act, which was done during the last Session. Another one was an amendment to The Public Schools Act, which is being proposed here before the Legislature during this Session, which will mandate superintendents and school officials to notify the Department of Education and the Mini ster with regard to incidents where charges have been laid. * (1 340) In all circums tances in the past where charges have been laid, the certificate of the teacher was suspended.

This was to ensure that the teacher would be removed from the classroom or from the contact with the children, and this was for the protection of the teacher and also for the protection of children. Mr. Speaker, once the teacher has been cleared of all charges, if that should occur, the certificate is immediately re-instated. However, where there is some question as to whether the charges have been stayed or whether the charges have been completely dropped, sometimes that matter is referred to the Certificate Review Committee, who will do further investigation.

We have acted in this regard on behalf of the children and parents and also of teachers in this province. Financial Compensation Mrs. Iva Yeo (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Sp eaker, again to the Minister of Education, this teacher remains today unemplo yed and in torment. What fina ncial and perso nnel assistanc e is made available by hi s department to these teachers who have been charged with these serious offences, but with no conviction following? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, it is the responsibility of the school board that has a contract with the teacher.

When suspends a teacher they can do In some instances teachers have been su spende d with pay and in some instances teachers have been sus pended without pay, but teachers are the employees of school boards. They are not the employees of the department. Because this problem again has come to light, we have taken measures to try and correct some of the problems have occurred. I can tell the House today, Mr.

Speaker, that our policy as of last week with regard to teachers in the future who are charged with such incidents is going to be such, that provided the teacher is taken out of the environment, out of the classroom and out of contact with children, the teacher's certificate will simply be forwarded to the Certificate Review Committee who will then deal with the matter. We will not automatically suspend the teacher's certificate, so in fact that teacher does not have a loss of salary, which has become a real issue in this matter. Relocation Assistance Mrs. Iva Yeo (Sturgeon Creek): Mr.

Speaker, I applaud that move, but I would also ask what assistance will the Department of Education provide to teachers from smaller communities to relocate, in light of the fact that it is more difficult for a teacher who teaches in a small community to try and go back into that same small community classroom, knowing how difficult it is for teachers in the largest school division in Manitoba to relocate in another school in that particular division. What assistance will be made for those teachers? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr.

Speaker, as I indicated before, teachers are the employees of indi vidual school divisions throughout the province. They are not the employees of the department or of the Government. It is up to the school division then to deal with that matter. I have consulted with the Manitoba Teachers Society, the Manitoba Association of School Trustees, my Deputy Min ister has consulted with the Manitoba Association of School Superintendents, and we have discussed this matter very thoroughly. We recognize that this is a dilemma.

However, from the department there is very little that we can do, because the legislation is such that makes teachers the responsibility and they have a legal obligation to the school boards, and the contract is between the teacher and the school board. So there is a matter that has to be discussed between the Teachers Society and the School Trustees Association. It is my hope that over the next short period there will be a resolution to this problem whereby teachers can receive just and fair treatment in matters as the Member for Sturgeon Creek (Mrs. Yeo) raises in this particular instance. 2683

Thursday, November 9, 1989 Commu nity Colleges Administrative Appoint ments Mrs. Iva Yeo (Sturgeon Creek): This is a new question, Mr. Speaker.

On Monday when I asked a question of the Mini ster of Education regarding admin istrative appointments at Red River Community College, the Mini ster indicated it would not be appropriate for him to interfere with the operation of the colleges. * (1 345) Can the Min ister tell us, what is the policy of his department in light of statements that were made in the House by the Min ister, "it is not my role," or, "I am not going to interfere," that contradicted comments that were made outside of the Chamber, Mr. Speaker? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr.

Sp eaker, I do not know what contradictory statements the Member for Sturgeon Creek is referring to, but I can tell you and I can tell l the House this afternoon that in fact the responsibility ' for staff at the Red River Commu nity College or Assiniboine Community College or Keewatin Community College comes under the jurisdiction of the president of each of those colleges. I do not get involved in the selection of personnel, whether it is at the vice-president level or at the dean level or at the instructor level in terms of who is hired for those positions. When a problem arises within a staff, Mr.

Speaker, then it is up to the president to deal with those matters. Now if those matters are not dealt with appropri ately, then I have an Assistant Deputy Min ister who is in charge of community colleges who will deal with the matter in a rational way. Above that I have the Deputy Minis ter who can deal with matters if they cannot be resolved. But certainly, I personally do not get involved in hirings or in firings or in reassignments of personnel at any of the community colleges in this province. Red River Community College Student Affairs - Mrs.

Iva Yeo (Sturgeon Creek): If the Minister feels that commun ity colleges are directed by the Assistant Deputy Minister, how is it that the Minister himself intervened when the recommendation was presented that the president of Red River Community College and the vice-president of academic affairs be entrusted and respons ible for student affairs? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training}: Mr. Speaker, once again it was not a matter that got involved in personally.

When the situation got to the state where there was a problem in terms of the job being split between two people, one being the president and the other being the vice-president, it was my suggestion after discussion with staff and it was concurred to by my staff that we in fact should be allocating or assigning a responsibi lity of that nature to one individual at the community college. This matter was then discussed with the president and therefore the situation was changed, but once again it was changed by the president. It was not changed by anybody else.

Community Colleges Advisory Committee Recommendations Mrs. Iva Yeo (Sturgeon Creek): We know that there is an advisory committee to study community colleges. In light of the fact that this is the third recent study to examine such things as autonomy of commun ity colleges, when might we expect the responses from this advisory committee? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, the Member for Sturgeon Creek fai ls to unde rstan d what consultation within the department is and what intervention is. She fails to understand or differentiate between the two.

It is obvious that my staff will consult with me as Min ister with regard to situations which perhaps pose a problem. It is also normal for the students association to be able to communic ate with my staff and with me indeed. I have indicated time and time again that my doors and my telephone lines are open to student associations and to my staff to contact me at any time. This, Mr. Speaker, does not smell of intervention as the Member for Sturgeon Creek indicates. With regard to a governance question, Mr. Speaker,- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order.

Grant family Custody Assistance Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Mini ster of Family Services (Mrs. Oleson). She and Members of her Government will know that the Grant family here in Winni peg has been desperately trying to have their young children, Utami and Jasa Moljady, returned to them and back in Canada after they were abducted from Winnip eg by their father October 13 and taken to In donesia.

Considering that the children's mother, who has full legal custody, and an uncle of the children, now both in Indonesia, have been unable to get any help or support from the Canadian Embassy in securing the return of these children, I want to ask the Min ister if she will use the weight of her department, the weight of this Government as a whole, to try and get the Department of External Affairs and through them the Canadian Embassy in Indonesia to help the Grant regain custody of their children? * (13 50) Hon. Charlo tte Oleson (Minister of family Services): Mr.

Speaker, as the Member herself indicated, it is really under the jurisdiction of the federal Government and the embassy. However, if there is something that my department or myself can do to help the situation, I will do it. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! 2684

Th ... rsday, November 9, 1989 Ms. Wasylyc ia-Leis: I thank the Min ister for her indicating that she will look into this matter and look forward to hearing her efforts of pressure on the embassy in Indonesia. This is a provincial matter, of course, because it effects families and trauma of children. In fact this was really the result of a poor sentencing of our court system in the case of an assault case back in September when the man in this question, Mr. Moljady, received a year on probation without supervision.

My question to the Min ister is, given that this family is seeking legal assistance and other representation from the embassy in Indonesia to get some agreement with the family to get the children back to Canada, will the Min ister commit herself today not only to check through the legal channels but also get in touch directly with the Grant family to see what other assistance her department and her Government might provide in this very tragic case. Mrs. Oleson: I certainly could ask the department to get in touch with them and see if there could be any assistance in this matter.

I will also undertake to speak to the Attorney General about it on his return. Tricia Manley Emergency Assistance Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): I have a new question to the Minister of Family Services pertaining to a 17 -year-old mother whose name is Tricia Manley, who had an infant son that left an abusive relationship with that child's father in British Columbia and came to Winnipeg. The Min ister will know that Ms. Manley was refused entry into a shelter in Alberta where her parents live.

Given that her parents helped her to Winni peg where she was close to family members, and given that she received absolutely no assistance- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. The Honourable Member for St. Johns. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Thank you. On my new question to the Min ister, which is a very serious situation, I would like to know from this Min ister and this Government why this 17-year-old woman with a small young baby was refused emergency assistance here in Manitoba? Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Speaker,

whereas I do not make it a practice of discussing individual private cases in the legislature, I am aware of the case and I will see what help we can give to this woman. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for St. Johns, with her final supple mentary question. Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: On that same matter, given that the Min ister has indicated to the family that she is investigating the situation and the horrible treatment that this woman and her baby received, I would like to ask the Min ister if she will tell the House today what the results of her investigation are, when she will be advising the family the results of that investigation, and what steps she has taken and is taking now to rectify the situation so that no one else ever- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. The Honourable Min ister of Family Services. Mrs.

Oleson: Yes, it is a great concern when cases like this come before us, and I assure the Member that my staff are working on this case as on others where people are having problems. I assure her that we will be in touch if there is anything we have to commun icate to them. Grant Family External Affairs Intervention Mr. Paul Edwards (St. Jame s): Mr. Speaker , referenced by the Member for St. Johns, Ms.

Nancy Grant of Min nedosa, who is the mother of a four-year old daughter and a two-and-a-half-year-old son, has recently had those children kidnapped by her estranged husband, who has absconded with those children to Indonesia. As the Minister has stated, this is more appropriately an international matter between Governments. However, we have been shocked and think saddened learn that the federal Government and the representatives of Canada in Jakarta have been less than helpful, indeed have been insensitive to the needs of the family who is over there trying to get those children back.

Will the Min ister, the Acting Attorney General, act im mediately to make personal contact with Joe Clark and demand that Canadian authorities in Jakarta do everything possible to uphold the laws of this province because custody is a provincial matter and these are Ma nitobans in Ind onesia. Will the Min ister make immediate contact with Joe Clark and ask him to have his department do their job in Jakarta? -(interjection)- * (13 55) Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Hon. Edward Connery (Mini ster of Co-operative, Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I would be pleased to take that question as notice. Mr.

Edwards: Mr. Speaker, I might ask the Minister perhaps to speak to the Deputy Attorney General in that regard because the Attorney General is of town for a couple of days and it is a very important matter that requires immediate attention. Non-Custodial Parents Legislation Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Second, for the Acting Attorney General, the father was able to get these children out of the country because one parent is allowed, apparently, to sign a passport application for the child, th erefore without the consent of the other 2685

Thursday, November 9, 1989 parent those children can be taken out of the country. Mr. Speaker, has this Government-in light of what apparently appears is a loophole- looked at the federal legislation which would allow a non-custodial parent to, in effect, kidnap a child and, if they take the children to a country that we do not have an extradition treaty with, it is virtually im possi ble to get them back, apparently. Has the Government looked at this and will the Government look at it immediately, if they have not already done so? Hon.

Edward Connery (Minister of Co-operative, Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I will take that up with the Attorney General as soon as he returns. Grant Family Family law Branch Intervention Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Acting Attorney General, finally, to contact the Family Law Branch, the director of the Family Law Branch here in Manitoba, so that the director can contact External Affairs and explain to them exactly what the laws are in this province.

The laws of custody are a provincial matter and I think it is important and it is imperative that External Affairs and the people in Jakarta know that the laws of this provi nce say that what has happene d is kidnapping and that they have a responsibil ity, perhaps between Governments, to discuss this issue and ensure the children are returned to their proper parent and to this province. Hon. Edward Connery (Minister of Co-operative, Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I will take that question as notice on behalf of the Min ister and also discuss it with his department. Crown lands Sale � Mrs.

Gwen Charles (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, one of the most valuable parts of our country are our Crown lands. Earlier this week the Department of Natural Resources has announced that it tends to sell off our Crown lands to businesses, albeit under appropriate conditions. Can the Min ister explain what brought this policy about and why our virgin territory is now open for business? Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr.

Speaker, anyone who has experienced travel and visitation to the North, particularly of our country, they will find that one of the most common complaints of our northern residents is their access to land. They for some reason feel that they ought to be able to own some land just as we southerners do, and under very proscribed conditions, where they meet certain criteria, this Government is indeed more than prepared to make available lands for comme rcial or recreational or residential purposes to people who decide to do business and reside in the North. Native land Claims Mrs. Gwen Charles (Selkirk): Mr.

Speaker, it is my understanding that there are still Native land claims that have yet to be settled. Why is he not determining these lands, the most important lands to be determined first, before he sells them off to businesses? Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker, let me be very quick to assure her that my good friend, the Min ister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey), would be among the very first to prohibit a sale of land in question if there is a conflict.

Prior to any land being considered for sale, it is processed through all Government agencies, including Northern Affairs, and certainly the Member is quite right, there are a num ber yet to be settled land claims. They have been designated, in the general area, and in that case no sale would be considered. .. (14 00) Crown lands Sale Criteria Mrs. Gwen Charles (Selkirk): Mr.

Speaker, will the Min ister of Natural Resources tell us if these lands will be sold directly to businesses, or is it the intention to sell the land to the municip alities so they will have control over what development takes place in their area? Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources): will handle this with as much kindness as I can. There are very few muni cipal ities in the North. This is unorganized territory and the Crown is responsible.

Other lands are administered by the Department of Northern Affairs, but the answer to the question is no, these lands, when they meet the criteria, are sold directly to the individuals involved. Conawapa Project Environmental Impact Study Hon. Harry Enns {Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I may, while I have the floor, take this earliest opportunity to make a correction. I provided the House with some wrong information yesterday, and in particular the Honourable Member for Selkirk (Mrs. Charles).

I was led into making this mistake by my knowledge of how the Limestone Hydro plant was commissioned back in'84 and'85. At that time it was not necessary for that project to be reviewed in a formal way by the Clean Environment Commission. Since that time, as a matter of fact in July of '87, the Clean Environment Commission was amended. It now makes it compulsory or mandatory for this review to take place, and I want to assure her and indeed Members of the Public that review will take place. Further, Mr. Speaker, a full environmental impact assessment study is under way. The firm, l.D.

Systems Limited, was retained to assist in this study in July '88, 2686

Thursday, November 9, 1989 and this is under way and will be concluded. It will involve all phases of the construction of the project, including access roads, the campsites, the construction power, the cutting transmission lines. Mr. Speaker, I appreciate that I am taxing your indulgence, but this information is important. I would like to share with the Honourable Members of both

Partie s that I wou ld make available to them the Conawapa project environmental impact assessment study workbook. ***** Mr. Speaker: Order. The Honourable Member for St. Norbert, on a point of order. Mr. John Angus (St. Norbert): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, it is my belief that this Honourable Member has taken privileges of the House to make a minis terial statement and introduce a report to which we have not had a legitimate opportunity to respond. I would ask you to take that point of order under advisement. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order.

The Honourable Minis ter of Natural Resources was tabling what? Order, please. An Honourable Member: On the same point of order. Mr. Speaker: On that point of order. Mr. Enns: On the point of order, Mr. Speaker, it is indeed against the privileges again of this House, indeed all Members, to put wrong information on the record or to in replying to a question provide information that is not correct. It is very much within the Rules to, at the earliest possible opportun ity, correct it and that is what I was attempting to do. Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the Honourable Min ister.

I have asked the Honourable Min ister, what was the document the Honourable Minis ter wanted to table? Mr. Enns: Mr. Speaker, I did not indicate that I was tabling a document, although I am quite prepared. I was prepared to share it with Honourable Members. I will table it with Clerk's Office with the undertaking that additional copies will be ma de avai lable to Members of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the Honourable Minister. The Honourable Member does not have a point of order. Ontario Ministry of Environment Consolidated Professor Mines Ms. Maureen Hemphill (Logan): Mr.

Speaker, my question is for the Min ister of Natural Resources. On or approximately November 1, the Department of the Environment received a document from the Ontario Mini stry of the Environ ment, which is a copy of Consolidated Professor's Gold Mine Environmental Assessment Guidelines. This document has been put out for reaction in a very short period of time. They have asked to have the responses back by November 15. It is very imp ortant that Manitoba have an adequate amount of time to put their feelings on record.

I want to know if the Min ister will immediately contact the Ontario Min istry of the Environment and ask for a delay so that we have adequate time- 15 days is not enough time-to respond to such an important document, and the results of the reaction from Manitoba are going to determine whether or not they believe we should have public hearings. We need more time. Will you ask for it? Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker, I am certainly prepared to consider that request. I will consult with my officials and indicate to her, perhaps on Monday, whether that can be done. Ms.

Hemphill: Thank you very much. I thank the Mi nister for that answer. Gold Mine -Shoal Lake Environmental Impact Study Ms. Maureen Hemphill (Logan): There have also been no guarantees that there will be public hearings. The Premier (Mr. Filmon) of the province has said that there might be public hearings. Will this Government and this Min ister go on record and commun icate immediately our feelings that there must be public hearings in this matter? Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Sp eaker, it is my un derstanding that our clean environment Minis ter (Mr.

Cummings) is right at this time involved in a national conference that, among other things, is dealing with that very question about trans jurisdictional environmental concerns as to how these can properly addressed. I will certainly undertake to apprise my colleague upon his return from Ottawa about the Min ister's questions and review that question. Ms. Hemphill: I thank the Min ister for that answer. Winnipeg Water Protection Group Funding Ms. Maureen Hemphill (Logan): Mr.

Speaker, since we all know that the Winnipeg Water Protection Group is expending tremendous amounts of energy and time and a large number of volunteers to help protect Manitoba's water and it is impossible with the resources that they have for them to be able to respond to this in the period of time, the two weeks certainly, even if there is an extension.

I wonder if the Government would now consider giving some financial resources to this very important body to help them prepare an adequate response so that it is not just the Go vernment responding but so that all interested parties in Manitoba have that opportun ity. Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Speak er, I am more than prepared to take that 2687

Thursday, November 9, 1989 suggestion under advisement. I am certainly aware of this group's activity. Again let me indicate to the Honourable Members that I was just advised in between questions that the department has already acceded to her earlier request with respect to extension of the date for response from Manitoba to that report. We have just simply asked that the short period of time is not acceptable to us, and a formal request has gone from my department to Ontario requesting additional time. Elder Abuse Hearings Participants Mr.

James Carr (Fort Rouge): My question is to the Min ister responsible for Seniors (Mr. Downey). As Members know, the public meetings scheduled by the Minister to hear public reaction to the Discussion Paper on Elder Abuse started this week in southwestern Mani toba. We un derstand that ma ny pot ential presenters have been unwilling or unable to share their views with the Min ister's staff because of the sensitivity of the issue of elder abuse, because sometimes families are involved.

My question to the Min ister is, how is he going to assure that he has all of the necessary facts at his disposal in order to make intelligent judgments when he is consulting Mani tobans about the recommendations in his paper, if people had been so shy to be forthcoming? Hon. James Downey (Minis ter responsible for Seniors): Mr Speaker, let me first of all thank the Honourable Member for that question. As I indicated during the Estimates process, that was a major concern. That was the sensitivity as to people coming forward with specific cases of elder abuse.

It is our desire to identify those people in the hearing process and that we do have a seniors information line, we do have the names of those individuals who have participated, and there will be private visits made if necessary to accommodate those people who feel either intimi dated and/or concerned about making any way, shape or form the information that they have public. Private Meetings Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, I have a supple mentary question to the same Min ister.

Can he make sure that those who are being invited to make presentations in front of staff in rural Manitoba and then in Winnipeg are informed that it is possible to set up private meetings with the Mini ster or his staff to make sure that all cases of elder ab use can be documented, so that when the time comes for the Mi nis ter to act on the advice gi ven to hi m by Manitobans, he has all the necessary information that can be made available? Hon. James Downey (Mini ster responsible for Seniors): Mr. Speaker, I again appreciate the concern shown by the Member opposite.

I think it is extremely important that seniors do have that knowledge, that 2688 there is an opportunity to further add information as relates to seniors abuse. That is why we did not want to rush the exercise, to make sure the job is done thoroughly so that when we come forward with the recommendations that we know that as best possible all the bases are covered to protect the seniors of this province. Elder Abuse Documentation Project Mr.

James Carr (Fort Rouge): The first step in a series of recommendations contained within the Elder Abuse Discussion Paper put out by the Min ister was to extend the pilot program at the Seven Oaks Hospital to document cases where elderly people go into hospital and are suspected to be victims of abuse. Given the fact that we have had so much reluctance of individuals to come forward, will the Min ister commit to extending that pilot project at Seven Oaks Hospital to all the hospitals in Manitoba as promised in the White Paper now and not later? Hon. James Downey (Mini ster responsible for Seniors): Again, Mr.

Speaker, I can appreciate the concern of the Liberal. However, I cannot necessarily understand it. Given the fact that we were elected as a Government, we have moved in a major way dealing with elder abuse in Manitoba. We have put resources to it. The Liberal commitment to the seniors of Manitoba was no resources and no elder abuse paper and no action on behalf of the seniors of this province. * (14 10) Goods and Services Tax labour Impact Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I have a question for the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Oleson), who is responsible for employment programs in the province.

Today we received a report in dicating that the Conference Board has estimated for the provincial Finance Ministers of Canada a job loss of up to 400,000 for this country because of the imp lementation of the goods and services tax, a very serious situa tion. Manitoba proportionately could be looking at as much as 20,000 jobs being lost because of this. Has the Mini ster had her department do an analysis of specific job losses in this province? Can she tell us specifically which industries and which occupations will be negatively affected? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr.

Speaker, this is an area that falls within my department's jurisdiction, and I can say that certainly staff of my department have been looking at the employment figur es for Manitoba over the last number of months. We have found in fact that Manitoba is faring very well in comparison to the rest of Canada with regard to employment in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, it seems that Members opposite are constantly looking at job losses, but they forget to look

Thursday, November 9, 1989 at the jobs that have been created sinc e this Government took office. I can tell you that we are very happy with the employment statistics in this province to date. We are one of the third in Canada with regard to our employment statistics, and we are very proud of our performance since our Government has tal<en office. Labour Adjustment Strategy Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, was- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. The Honourable Member for Brandon East. Mr.

Leonard Evans: -d isappointed to learn that Premier Filmon has really not opposed vigorously the GST at the First Min isters' Conference today. There has not been the opposition that there should be. Mr. Speaker, my supplement ary question is this: it is sad that the department is not prepared to treat this as a very serious matter. Is the Mi nister prepared to set up special pr ogr ams to help unemplo yed Manitobans find jobs after the GST is imp lemented? Hon.

Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): It seems like the Opposition have difficulty in understanding something, because over and over again they have been told about the Premier's stance on the GST and they seem to misu nderstand that, or they will not accept his position.

I can tell you that the question the Member from Brandon East just posed is a very hypothetical one to begin with, and second, if he takes a look at the labour stats since this Government has taken office he will find that indeed our economy in Manitoba is performing very well, that our job market is very good, that we have 19,000 people more working in Manitoba today than when the NOP were in Government. I have to tell you that we are very encouraged by what we see happening in Manitoba. Manitoba is open for business and it is the busi nesses in this province that will create the jobs for Manitobans. Mr.

Leonard Evans: I would remind the Min ister that the report we are talking about is prepared for the provincial Premiers of this country. They have said there are going to be these job losses and the Min ister of Finance (Mr. Manness) of Manitoba said there will be job losses, so I am asking this Minister who apparently is now in charge of employment instead of the Min ister of Employment Services, will he and his colleagues prepare to take any initiatives for those thousands of Man itobans who are definitely going to lose job s because of the GST? Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Speaker, if the Member for Brandon East has been cognizant of what has happened since this Government has taken office, he will see that there has been a pro-active approach in terms of creating employment in this province, and we will continue to do that as long as we are in Government.-(interjection)- Seniors' Information Line Elder Abuse Referrals Ms. Avis Gray (Ellice): I have a question for the Minister of Seniors (Mr. Downey). We have been very much concerned on this side of the House about the lack of leadership from the two Minis ters of Seniors, including the current one. The Member for Fort Rouge (M r.

Carr) asked a question today about valid concerns about elderly who are concerned and are not willing to come forth with sensitive information in regard to abuse. The Min ister responded in the House today and said, well, we have a Seni ors' In formation Line. Mr. Sp eaker, he is contradicting himself. In Estimates the other day the Min ister clearly indicated that if an elderly person phones the information line and feels they have been abused, the Min ister's answer was, well, we would refer it to the Department of Justice.

Can the Min ister indicate today, what good is the Seniors' Information Line to deal with these sensitive issues of elder abuse when the Minister, with the support of his staff in Estimates, clearly indicated that those cases would be referred to another department? Hon. James Downey (Mini ster responsible for Seniors): Let me try and help the Honourable Member out.

If an individual phones indicating a concern and a need to meet with the Seniors Directorate as it relates to elder abuse and they would like to meet with someone as it relates to the Elder Abuse Paper, elder abuse concerns that they have personally, they will be met directly with the Seniors Directorate. I want to make that very clear. If it is a criminal case or physical abuse that would include or involve the police, then the police will be notified, and notified immediately. If it is a health matter that relates to the Health Department, they will be notified immediately.

I hope that makes it clear for the Member. Our concerns truly are for the seniors of this province. Assessments Ms. Avis Gray (Elli ce): I have a supplementary question to the same Minis ter. Is the Minis ter telling this House today that when an elderly phones for information that with one telephone conversation his staff will be able to adequately assess the individual's situation and will be able to then make a determination about whether the police should be called or who should be involved? Is the Min ister indicating that with one telephone call that the- Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

The question has been put.- (interjection)- Order. The Honourable Min ister responsible for Seniors. Hon. James Downey (Minister responsible for Seniors): I again will try to help the Liberal Member who, during the election campaign, had a Leader who said she and the Liberal Party had no resources for the Seniors Directorate, did not touch or even mention elder abuse. 2689

Thursday, November 9, 1989 Let me make it very clear that when individuals phone the seniors' line, or if they identify themselves to any Member of the Legislature who want to talk to the Seniors Directorate about elder abuse, we will more l will re-emphasize "more"- than make sure and emphasize the need to talk to those people and do it in a private setting so they do not feel intimidated. Ms. Gray: We will gladly lay out to this Government how we could utilize the Seniors Directorate and spend less money than what you have done and accomplish a lot more, gladly do it.- (interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order.

Order, please. I would like to remind the Honourable Member for Ellice that this is not a time for debate, this is Question Period. Would the Ho nourable Mem ber for Ellic e kindly put her question now, please? Ms. Gray: Mr. Speaker, this is a final suppl ementary to the Mi nister responsible for Seniors. Can he tell- Mr. Speaker: I would like to remind the Honourable Member for Ellice it is not a time for debate, this is Question Period. The Honourable Member for Ellice, kindly put her question now, please. Ms. Gray: Mr. Speaker, with a final supplem entary to the Min ister responsible for Seniors.

Can he tell this House how he was going to ensure that those elderly individuals throughout Manitoba who feel that they are being abused and who are very reluctant to come forward are in fact going to be identified and will have the opportunity to come forward and speak their mind? Can he tell us exactly how he will assure that in fact he will be able to get that information? Mr.

Downey: I am sure that the Member has a clear appreciation for communic ation and how that process takes place, but I have to say that the Conservative Party and this Government are extremely upset and absolutely opposed to the Liberals who are comm itted to reducing the money that is in the Seniors Directorate, as was just indicated by the Member for Ellice. We intend to increase the expenditures. We intend to make sure the resources are used to protect the seniors of this province, not only as it relates to elder abuse but all the other needs of the seniors in Manitoba. * (14 20) Mr.

Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. NON-POLITICAL STA TEMENT Mr. Mark Minenko (Seven Oaks): Mr. Speaker, could I have leave for a non-political statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks have leave to make a non-political statement? Some Honourable Members: Leave. Mr. Minenko: As a serving member of the Canadian Armed Forces Medical Services, and a member who 10 years ago was selected to serve in Egypt as a peacekeeper, I would also like to add my comments to the comments made earlier. Mr.

Speaker, every year at the eleventh hour on the eleventh day of the eleventh month, a lone bugler plays The Last Post. During this moment Canadians from sea to sea pause to remember. We pause to remember the tragedy that is war. We remember the millions who died. We pause to remember the sacrifice of our family, friends and neighbours. With the wind carrying away the last note of The Last Post we look to the future. We hope that the future of all of us will bring with it peace and harmony. ORDERS OF THE DAY HOUSE BUSINESS Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern and Native Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, let me first of all make a comment as it relates to House Business. In view of the fact that there was a disposition at some point to call today a Friday as far as hours are concerned and we are not doing that, I know that there is a certain disposition from the Members to call five o'clock, six o'clock. However, I do not have full concurrence yet from some of the individuals in the House, but I will work to that objective and later on, as we get to five o'clock, will make a statement on that as it relates to the Private Members' Hour. I do want to speak to the Liberal House Leader (Mr.

Alcock) further on this, Mr. Speaker. Let me therefore move, seconded by the Min ister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Albert Driedger), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the Ho use resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be gr anted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) in the Chair for the Department of Health; and the Honourable Member for Burrows (Mr.

Chornopyski) in the Chair for the Department of Culture, Heritage and Recreation. * (14 30) CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY- HEAL TH Mr. Chairman (Harold Gil leshammer): I would like to call this committee meeting to order to discuss the Estimates of the Health Department. When last we met we were on

Section (

d) Health Promotion:

(1) Salaries $624,800-the Honourable Min ister. Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Before we go on, so that my honourable friend gets a chance to collect her thoughts -(interjection)-If you want to collect 2690

Thursday, November 9, 1989 mine, you can.- (interjection)- I do not doubt you have. Mr. Chairman, when we last met, and I cannot even remember when it was, Monday, it was a long time ago because I seem to waste so much time with those Opposition Parties in the House. At any rate, I have these books that I was going to leave with my honourable friend, the Liberal Health Critic, and I know that my honourable friend, the MLA for Ellice (Ms. Gray), will make sure that he gets them. Now I have one for my honourable friend for Ellice, "Teenage Pregnancy in Manitoba" and one for the Member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton).

I have a review of the prenatal education enrollment in Manitoba. What else is there? Fact sheets on OPV, MMR and OPT, there are those fact sheets. Information on the Manitoba Imm unization Monitoring System, acronym MI MS. Some information sheet on Lyme disease and I believe, yes, this is the one that we distributed this spring when there was some concern that Lyme disease may reach Manitoba. I have the most recent statistics for hepatitis A, hepatitis B, pertussis.

I have information available to two questions and I do not recall which MLA asked them but it was in what training is available for the food industry and what material is available for education for the general public. Another question was: is there a tuberculosis pamphlet available in Cree? No, there is not. However, a slide tape presentation which is used for education of all newly diagnosed cases of tuberculosis is available in many languages, including Cree. In other words, it is not a written pamphlet, it is a video slide and tape presentation in Native tongues.

In addition, a comic book targeted at young Natives is being developed. The text will initially be in English but it will be available in Slavics in the future. I believe I wanted to give each of my honourable friends in the Opposition a copy of Towards Healthier Eating. This is the latest nutritional information that well, I mean if you have one, they are very expensive and I -(interjection)- Oh, okay. We ll, the MLA for Kildonan wanted one. As a result of that format that presentation form, our requests for this year are up by 300 percent- very, very successful.

An Honourable Member: Does that cover the cafeteria food service? Mr. Orchard: Oh, no, that information does not cover the quality of the food service in the cafeteria. Ms. Avis Gray (Ellice): Mr. Chairperson, the Min ister referred to the program towards healthier eating and I will apologize if this is a question that has already been asked, but could the Minister tell us, this particular program, who was it developed for and is this to be used by direct service staff in the department and/or individuals and other agencies or what is the strategy in terms of impl ementing this program? Mr.

Orchard: Is my honourable friend referring to the- Ms. Gray: Towards healthier eating. Mr. Orchard: That is the large presentation I will soon be giving te5 my honourable.friend. A varied distribution group, educators, and I will gi ve you-we have distributed 361 ,243. Ms. Gray: I am sorry? Mr. Orchard: I know your mind was on the cafeteria downstairs.

The distribution to date of the package is 361 ,243 gone to schools, seniors organizations, non Government organizations, volunt eer nutrition ists, weight-loss groups, police departments, work sites, day cares, health units, restaurants, grocery stores, and athletic associations and then of course the usual distribution within the department in terms of our regional offices, et cetera. Ms. Gray: This program that is being sent out, is. it on a request basis, i.e., for instance in the schools, and is there any type of contact by staff in regard to follow-up?

I guess what I am asking is, were the programs sent out and it is hoped that they will be used, or have people been requesting them and what type of resources are available as well as the program in terms of public health staff, home economists, et cetera, to assist in the implementing of the program? * (1 440) Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, I guess it is both. The initial distribution led to, I think it is very fair to say, an exceptional acceptance of the program and that resulted in a significant increase in the requests for additional material because it was found to be extremely valuable.

Now under normal circumstances we would distribute a little over 40,000 and that was done to a regularized mailing list, if you will, a regularized distribution group, and additional requests have come in since that because of the utility of the information. Ms.

Gray: Is there any evaluation that is being conducted to determine if in fact-I mean it is one thing to send out all these resources, it is another thing to know if in fact the resources are being utilized, being utilized appropriately, and if in fact there is an evaluation built in as to the success of this program because, as the Min ister indicates himself, these packages are not inexpensive. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, I do not want to be facetious to my honourable friend but we have not gone into the dining rooms of the nation to see whether they are following the guidelines.

I think it is fair to say that with the balance that is present in the information package and the request for it, and the types of groups that have been asking for the additional copies like your weight-loss groups for instance, we have every confidence that the information being well received is also being implemented. Ms. Gray: Is this program written so that non professionals can utilize this material? Mr. Orchard: Yes, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Gray: The Min ister still has not answered the question. He was concerned about being facetious but 2691

Thursday , November 9, 1989 what I want to know, is there an evaluation mechanism in regard to this particular program, and if so, could he outline it for us? Mr. Orchard: There is and I can, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Gray: Is the Min ister able to do that at this time? Mr. Orchard: It is pr im arily through the home economists that we do follow-ups. Ms. Gray: If the Minister is saying that home economists do follow-up, does the Minister have written information or directions or strategy that have been given to staff in regard to exactly what follow-up there will be?

The further question is, the Minis ter says there is follow up and there were over 3,000 I believe packages that were given out. I am not sure of the number of home economists working for the Department of Health in rural Manitoba, but I know in Winnipeg it is less than six, so perhaps the Min ister could elaborate on how this follow-up is to be conducted. Mr. Orchard: Again, without being facetious, to my honourable friend there would not even be six if it had not of been for the intervention of myself and my colleagues when we were in Opposition when those home economists were not to be part of the activities.

There are two yearly training sessions I am told in which evaluation and feedback is sought as to the utility and the advised utilization and worth of the material presented. From that comes suggestions for change if there are areas of weakness, or certainly building upon the strengths and what is more acceptable to the craft future additions. Ms.

Gray: Have the home economists, and just to clarify and I said this last year, that certainly as a home economist, as someone who believes in the program, the salvaging of the home ec directorate and that is not the field home economist that I am referring to, the Minister is correct. We certainly give credit to the Opposition for salva ging that when the NOP Government was quite prepared to get rid of the entire home ec directorate, but I am referring to field staff in the region as oppo sed to directorate.

I guess I am wondering if each home economist then has been given responsibility for following up with the various programs that have been given out to various groups, et cetera, or schools in their particular region. Mr. Orchard: On this nutritional-towards healthier eating program the 11 home economists that are throughout the province in the various regions, that is one of their responsibil ities, to get feedback and provide us with an evaluation of how well received the program is and their best estimate on whether it is a valuable approach to be continued.

I think from the basis that we decided to put up a signif icantly enh anced effort in to the nu tritional program, I am convinced that either you say that it is a valuable use of health promotion resource dollars. Ms. Gray: Can the Min ister indicate, do the 11 home economists all have a consistent evaluation tool or mechanism which they are using? He indicated 11 home economists. Could he possibly tell us how many, I am just curious, how many evaluations per home economist are some of these home economists going to be required to do, given their other responsibilities? Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Chairman, I will have to consult as to whether they have a prescribed form that they use for evaluation or whether they fe edback their observations as they encounter a variety of groups because I think my honourable friend would appreciate when you are dealing with a range of groups from school children through to senior citizens and, for instance, weight-loss groups, that various portions of the entire program will be evaluated in different degrees by those different groups who access the information at different times. Ms.

Gray: How much of a priority is this particular prog ram in regard to a home econ omist's responsibi lities? Mr. Orchard: It is one of the significant efforts that the home economists undertake throughout the regions. Ms.

Gray: My concern in raising these questions is, I submit in fact there is not a formal evaluation mechanism at all and although the home economists I would guess, and I have not talked to any of them, have probably been told that, yes, they should be getting feedback on this program, that in fact there has not been a formal mechanism possibly that has been ins tituted from the executive director to regional directors to their supervisors down to say that this is a high priority.

I would also be concerned that there ·is not an evaluation mechanism or tool so that home economists will be working closely with the schools in particular as one of the major groups, I would assume, to assess and determine how successful this particular program is. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, I would welcome my honourable friend's professional advice as a home economist as well as an MLA. Ms. Gray: If the Minister would welcome that advice, is he then, in effect, agreeing with my comments? Mr.

Orchard: I am saying that my honourable friend, as a home economist, formerly employed with the department, I would value her, as to whether she believes this is a worthy initiative of Government and whether a Government she might be part of would curtail it. That seems to be where my honourable friend is heading. Ms. Gray: If the Minis ter would listen closely, I have not alluded to that at all.

My concern is, once again we have these programs and I question, it is nice to throw out all these words and string words together and talk about evaluation and feedback mechanisms, but if you really have not established a strategy and if you really do not have a formal process in place and 2692

Thursday, November 9, 1989 given that field worker's time, whether they are home economists, social workers or public health nurses, are always very much-t hey are pulled and pressed to do a number of various programs and services, I really question whether, and I am asking the Min ister, is he confident that in fact there is a formal evaluation mechanism in place whereby these home economists have been charged-and it sounds like being the front line people-to get these evaluations conducted. Is he confident that in fact that will be done? *

(1450) Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, my honourable friend, she might recall the answer I gave her a short while ago. She is asking me, is there a two-page, checked-off, yes, no, agree, dis agree, stro ngly agree, str ongly disagree, rating of every page in the book.

No, that is not the case because the information that is presented in there is information that appl ies from a range of individuals from babes to seniors, from those with weight problems to those with specific health problems, for instance diabetes, for instance heart disease, and it suggests nutritional advice in one complete addition that can provide that kind of advice. My honourable friend is asking, is every single page evaluated? No, that is not done.

I want to tell my honourable friend that I am confident as Minis ter of Health in a Progressive Conservative Governm ent that this is a valuable init iativ e by Government. We will continue and build upon this initiative. The reason I say that is that we have not had to go out and flog this material to have it taken out. There have been more requests for this package of nutritional material because of its balance, its utility, the in forma tion presented in it and the easi ly understood format in which it is placed.

It has led to a significant demand by Manitobans for the information, significantly greater demand than for any other, I believe, any other pamphlet or program that we have initiated in health promotion: That to me indicates when we embarked upon this course as an initi ative, very much tied to health promotion, to healthier lifestyle, to promoting health, that we have hit the target by the very fact that Manitobans are demanding this more than any other print material in health promotion. That to me is an indication of success.

I am confident that we are utilizing the resource of Government for very effective use in health promotion. As I say, if my honourable friend has some sense that is not the case, and she believes we ought to curtail that. I want to know if that is a personal opinion as a home economist or whether that is a Party position of the Liberals that she is putting forward. I am confident this information is good, and we will continue to provide it. When we receive advice on improvements we will make those improvements to make the package even better. Ms.

Gray: If the Min ister feels that just because people are clamouring for information, and no doubt they are because there is very little information in the area of healthy lifestyles and nutrition, that is the evaluation mechanism as long as people are clamouring for something therefore it must be good, I totally disagree with that statement made by the Min ister. Schools were clamouring for the food for thought information as well. I would suggest that was probably at least as popular as this particular book, but they were clamouring for that, and there were workshops held.

Teachers came by droves to participate in it, and it is because they wanted information on nutrition. It was only when that program was evaluated over a period of time, that the department could then assess whether in fact it was a useful program. In fact it did turn out to be a very useful program. I think if the Minis ter of Health is suggesting, because resources are developed and because people are clamouring for the information and want to use it, that is sufficient evaluation, I would suggest to him the potential is there for wasting taxpayers' dollars.

I am not making any comments at all about whether this particular program is good or bad, because obviously I do not know. The Min ister does not know either, because he has not had the program evaluated. It probably has not been out long enough. My question is-and I asked this question again last year in Estimates-if you are going to move ahead in a direction in terms of health promotion, disease prevention or whatever it is surely to goodness you need to evaluate your programs. There are very many, many types of evaluation, which I am sure the Min ister is aware of.

Can the Minister indicate to us what particular method of evaluation is used in this particular instance to evaluate this particular program? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, I realize my honourable friend is seeking-and I again tell her that there is not a sheet which evaluates everything and you check mark it off. That is not the evaluation. The evaluation is in terms of its acceptability by the user groups which is high.

As I indicated to my honourable friend, we do not have people in the kitchens and dining rooms of the province surveying to see whether you are having your carrots today, your lean beef tomorrow, and your fish on another day. An Honourable Member: Friday. Mr. Orchard: My honourable friend from St. Boniface said Friday. That may well be. The information is being utilized in a greater degree than ever before, and, in part, one will be able to determine the impact of any health promotion program including nutrition by various surveys that we do in terms of population status.

One of them we launched three weeks ago with the healthy heart survey, a component of which involves nutrition. I suppose the only way one is able to evaluate, on a population basis, as to whether you are hitting your mark with your information target is to know whether your eating habits do in fact change over a period of time. 2693

Thursday , November 9, 1989 I think having done that does one attribute and take credit for it because one has put out a successful package of information, like we have done here, or do you attrib ute to commercial advertising and the emphasis on low cholesterol and low fat diets and emphasis on salad and other vegetable diets? Does one attribute it to the growing num bers of weight clinics and Weigh t Watchers and other organ izations throughout the province that do, indeed, indicate to people what a healthy diet can do for them in terms of mai ntaining a healthy body weight?

Does one attribute it to the many professional clubs in the private sector that sell fitness memberships? As part of it there is counselling for individuals. We believe this program is a valued addition to that. It indicates in a factual way, because the Government of Manitoba has no commercial interest to promote, that our information is the soundest nutritional advice that is available. We receive feedback as to its receptiveness to the various target groups. It is indicated that it is well received. Well received, I have to assume, mean s used.

That does not necessarily mean that a person with the catalogue follows every single suggestion in it, because, as I have said to my honourable friend, we do not sit in the dining rooms of the province watching people eat. Ms. Gray: Given the Min ister's last comments, is this resource material available to individuals, or is it used for groups and schools where there are groups that are being taught? Mr. Orchard: An individual can ask for and receive this information. *

(1500) Ms. Gray: Can the Minister tell me-I am not quite sure why this would be available to individuals in this format, because even having the opportunity to briefly look through it, it would appear that they are set up in terms of lessons and teaching plans. So would it not make sense that this be available to people who would then be utilizing it with a group? Mr. Orchard: The package my honourable friend received is the educational package. Individuals can receive components. For instance, if you are diabetic and wish to have the

section on diabetes that is the information that is sent to an individual. If you are concerned with weight loss there would be that information package sent to you. Ms. Gray: Can the Minister tell us what reading level the material was written at? Mr. Orchard: I am told that for different target groups there are different reading levels. So I assume that Grade 3 to 4 people would have a different reading level than for instance literate adults. Ms. Gray: Is the Min ister saying that this program is written with different reading levels? Mr. Orchard: Components are, yes.

If my honourable friend read through it she would see which were which, possib ly. Ms. Gray: Well, ! have not had the opportunity to thoroughly read through it, but maybe the Min ister of Health could indicate to us where there might be differences throughout these in terms of reading levels, university level versus elementary. Mr. Orchard: Certainly I will provide that information for my honourable friend, because it is such a burning issue. Ms. Gray: Well, I will save the Min ister some time, if he is not able to do that now.

I do not really want his staff going to all that work in having to provide that information. The Minister talked about this having a high level of acceptability, and he talked about how do you evaluate how this information is used. I am wondering, is this material aimed at awareness level and knowledge level changes, or are we actually looking at behaviour changes and practice changes with this material. Mr.

Orchard: We are trying to demonstrate what would be healthy eating habits for various groups, whether it be a medical condition, an age group, a seniors group, one who wished to lose weight, the best nutritional information that is available. Ms. Gray: What is the Minister hoping to accomplish with this? Is he actually hoping that this material will accomplish actual behaviour change? Is he doing any type of pilot projects or any spot evaluation with various groups, school children, adults, et cetera, in ·terms of actually looking at behavioural change as far as eating habits? Mr.

Orchard: No, as I have indicated to my honourable friend we are providing the best in formati on -we believe state of the art information-in terms of the various nutritional requirements for the various target groups in Manitoba society, be they seniors; be they preschoolers; be they young adults; be they expectant mothers; be they growing teenagers; be they people with a weight problem; be they people with diabetes; be they people with a heart condition; be they people with othe r med ical diffi cu lties; people with bone problems, in emphasis for instance on calcium as part of a diet.

We are attempting to provide the most accurate information available. That accurate information is available in easily understood form so the individuals accessing the information can understand and achieve the go al towards healthier nutrition in a very presentable, easy to understand format, which has wide acceptance and we believe is absolutely a tremendous asset for Manitobans to have. Ms. Gray: Mr. Chairperson, the Minis ter is still being very evasive about the type of evaluation.

I am still not convinced there is an evaluation, but let us say that, in fact, there is some sort of evaluation going on with 2694

Thursday , November 9, 1989 this program. Perhaps the Min ister could indicate to us, does he have a time frame in regard to when an initial or interim evaluation might be completed or carried out? If he has a time frame would he be prepared to share that interim evaluation with Members of the Opposition at that time? Mr. Orchard: That sounds like a reasonable suggestion from my honourable friend. Ms. Gray: I do believe it is a reasonable suggestion.

My question still is: is the Mini ster prepared to give us that interim report, and does he have a time frame about when he might have an interim evaluation on this particular program? Mr. Orchard: No, yes, and thank you. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? Ms. Gray: The Minis ter is indicating that, no, there is no time frame at this point. Am I correct? Mr. Orchard: Unless I had your order of questions wrong that is correct. Ms.

Gray: Does the Mini ster feel it is im portant that before-I would imagine, given the amount of resources and the cost of repri nting this material-that it would be impo rtant to evaluate this program, let us say, before they all run out and there needs to be reprinting. Does the Min ister feel there should be an evaluation carried out, even an interim evaluation, to assess the usabil ity of this particular program? Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Chairman, as I have indicated to my honourable friend, we have not had any reason to believe that this information is not appropriate and valuable except the con cerns expressed by my honourable friend. I do not know whether it is personal or whether it is Party posit ion where they seem to have some reluctance of informing Manitobans of the most up-to date nutritional information available. Ms.

Gray: For the Minis ter's information, the best resources, whether human, written resources, et cetera, in the world are not going to change people's behaviour unless in fact we know the material is being used we know the material is being used appropria tely and we can evaluate some sort of behavioural change. Is the Mini ster not interested? Does he actually think this particular material-and I see who the author is of this material. I am sure it is very, very well done. I am sure it is very good material.

Is he suggesting that everything in this manual and this material is perfect and there will be no need for any further changes or modifications down the road where, in fact, it could even be better utilized by some groups or programs? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, that is exactly what I told my honourable friend about a half an hour ago. Ms. Gray: The Min ister has indicated he told me that an hour and a half ago. What exactly is he saying that he told me? Mr. Orchard: I told my honourable friend that part of the feedback may suggest where we can improve the material, and those impr ovements will be incorporated.

Now, if my honourable friend has forgotten I indicated that to her. I have answered that question. I realize my honourable friend may well just be here to put in the time this afternoon in the absence of the Liberal Health Critic, but we can go around this all afternoon, and I cannot give my honourable friend any more information than I have given her already todate. Ms. Gray: Mr. Chairperson, I am beginning to realize that in fact the Min ister is correct. He cannot give me any more information on evaluation, because he has not given me anything to begin with.

I do not think he has any idea about what evaluation of programs and services are. That was the concern I raised last year in Estimates, and I have no reason to believe he has educated hims elf any more in this coming year in regard to the evaluation of programs and services. Rather than going around and around this issue I just want to reiterate, I think it is very, very important that when any new initiatives are established part of that new initiative have an evaluation component lied into it. I see the Mini ster-and I will give him a hint of where he has seen fit to do that.

We will be asking questions later on in regard to the partnership with the health initiative, the new fund. Again, it is indicated that people submitting projects should have an evaluation component tied into that proposal. I think that is very imp ortant. I am glad to see that in the information, except I question why we spend time and make sure that outside agencies have evaluation components tied in. We do not in fact have those evaluation mechanisms firmed up in our own department.

Again, I really believe that for too long and too many years in this province we have gone ahead with a lot of programs and services, and we have never evaluated them even when they have been pilot projects. They go on and on and on, and we have never been able to indicate whether they are cost efficient. Mr. Orchard: I think my honourable friend was making a general statement not posing a question. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass-pass. Ms. Gray: Mr. Chairperson, in this particular

section the Health Promotion deals with smoking reduction and cessation. I am sure the Min ister is aware that smoking and alcohol use are precursors of drug abuse. I am wondering if the Min ister would indicate to us, what is the nature and scope of the public education programs in regard to smoking reduction or cessation. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, I would like to giv e both my honourable friends and any of their smoker friends 2695

Thursday, November 9, 1989 a package that is available from Health Promotion to help them curtail smoking. Ms. Gray: Is that the answer to the question? Mr. Orchard: Well, I think my honourable friend asked what information was available from Health Promotion, and she has just received it. * (1 510) Ms. Gray: I also asked the Min ister if he could indicate the nature and scope of this program, which also would involve who conducts these particular programs. Is there a public awareness campaign? Are there particular resource people who have been designated to actually teach smoking cessation or reduction programs?

Who are the target population, et cetera, et cetera? Mr. Orchard: A lot of the com ponents that my honourable friend mentioned are part of the Health Promotion effort and the department's efforts, yes. Ms. Gray: Is there a particular target population in regard to the Health Promotion Directorate really wanting to target in on any particular group, i.e. school age children versus adults? Mr. Orchard: As my honourable friend knows, the most rapidly growing group of individuals who are smoking are teenage girls.

I think the advertising, the Break Free campaign, has been sensitive to that particular age group and has been thereby targeted to some degree. Ms. Gray: The Break Free Program, can the Minis ter indicate, I am not quite sure how long that has been going on but is that particularly an awareness program as opp osed -is that the level that prog ram was impl emented, in terms of awareness level of the risks of smoking, or are we actually looking at other things in that program? Mr. Orchard: The Break Free media campaign was launched in the fall of 1985, the campaign target group is youth age 12 to 17 years old.

The message is the benefits of remaining smoke free. The objective is to persuade young people to remain smoke free, to position nonsmoking as normal, desirable behaviour and to influence group pressure toward nonsmoking. The campaigns that were undertaken under the Break Free campaign were Luba, September 1987 to January 19 89; Leader of the Pack, January 1989 to the present. Again, the target group was youth 12 - to 17-year-olds. Luba was popular with 10- to 14-year-olds. Leader of the Pack is popular with 15- to 17-year-olds.

Awareness of the campaign between smokers and nonsmokers was 41 percent of 12- to 14-year-olds were aware of the campaign; 49 percent of the 15 - to 17-year-olds were aware of the campaign. Awareness of the Break Free slogan was up to 80 percent which is I think a pretty high recognition. Ms. Gray: Can the Min ister tell us, are there any programs, education program s, that are being conducted in the school system, elementary, junior high, in regard to smoking cessation? Mr. Orchard: I would defer detail on that to questioning of my honourable colleague, the Min ister of Education (Mr. Derkach).

I know my honourable friend would get a full and complete answer including evaluation from my honourable friend, the Min ister of Education. Ms. Gray: Is the Minis ter indicating that his Health Promotion Directorate has no responsibility for any types of programs that might be carried out in the schools? Mr. Orchard: No, I am not indicating that but this is the Department of Health and we provide materials that are used in the school systems. How they are used in the school system, as was my honourable friend's question, would be more appropria tely addressed to the Minister of Education. Ms.

Gray: Is the Minis ter then saying that none of his staff within the Department of Health carry out any type of smoking reduction programs or act as a resource to school teachers who might provide those programs? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, what I am saying to my honourable friend is that we develop the campaigns and the materials, and on request they are made available to school divisions. Assistance is provided to guidance counsellors and others who may wish to undertake those programs in the school systems.

That is the role of Health Promotion, to be the provider of information on request and the developer of information upon request. We also have the AFMs program Tuning into Health available through Health Promotion upon request of the school divisions but if my honourable friend wants to know which divisions and which schools and which grades and how many classes a day, that question would be most appropria tely asked of the Minis ter of Education. Ms. Gray: How does the Health Promotion Directorate know that its materials and resources are being used appropriately, if at all, through the Department of Education?

Mr. Orchard: Well, Mr . Chairman, I have to assume that school teachers, guidance counsellors when they ask for information and information packages from Health Promotion that they use them in the manner designed, i.e., to provide information, education and Health Promotion initiatives in the schools. I do not believe, as would be suggested by my honourable friend, that they are wasted by those individuals when they are supplied by the department. Ms.

Gray: Does the Min ister see a role for the Health Promotion Directorate to be innovators and initiators in regard to ensuring that some smoking reduction programs actually occur with various target populations, one of the most important being school aged children? One would think that a very opportune forum to provide some of that education would be actually in the schools. 2696

Thursday, November 9, 1989 Can the Minis ter indicate-a nd maybe I have the role of the Health Promotion Directorate wrong, I would think that one of the roles might be to actually initiate some formal meetings or some formal structures with the Department of Education to ensure that some of these programs are being carried out. Mr. Orchard: That is what the department does. Ms. Gray: I am glad to hear that is what the department does. Perhaps the Min ister c&n indicate for us, he then must be aware of what types of programs are being carried out in the schools in regard to smoking reduction.

I am not asking for specific school divisions, I am asking the extent of the programs being carried out. Is it done basically in all the schools as the Min ister would have us believe in Question Period? There mus t be some in forma tion the Health Promotion Directorate has available given that they are giving out these resources and given that the Min ister has just admitted that in fact they have responsibility for ensuring, whether they actually do the delivery, that some of these programs are being carried out. Mr.

Orchard: I believe my honourable friend two quest ions ago-a nd possibly she could write her questions down so she knows what she is asking and she knows what is being answered-asked me if there was any co-ordination between Health Promotion and education, and at the staff level. I said, yes, there was. Then my honourable friend then automatically turns around and says, well, now the Minis ter has assumed responsibility for delivery in the school and will he make sure -(interjection)- Oh, my honourable friend says that is not what she said. Well, maybe she would like to rephrase what she said. Ms.

Gray: I might suggest maybe the Minis ter should write down my answers so in fact he can read what I said. Mr. Orchard: You do not gi ve ans wers, you ask questions. *

(1520) Ms. Gray: I also give answers sometimes. What I am asking the Min ister is, what I want to know is, what is the relat ionship between the Health Promotion Directorate and the Department of Education? If he could specifically indicate to us what relationship there is in regard to ensuring that there are smoking reduction cessation programs being carried out with school-aged children. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, we work as a resource division to provide pamphlets, campaign material to those who request it.

In the anti-smoking campaign that can be restaurant association, that can be public institutions, as well as school divisions. When the school divisions wish us to participate in terms of provision of materials and we have them, we do that. Our materials are created in consultation with the Department of Education so that our message is one that is acceptable.

We do not create them in isolation but if my hon ourable friend wants to know what programs are undertaken for smoking cessation in what schools, in what divisions, in what grades, I do not have that in formati on, because that is where scho ol counsello rs who work within the Departm ent of Education undertake that program. They provide the information, and p&rt of the package we have was given to my honourable friend. I indicated to her the media campaign that we are continuing with. Ms.

Gray: Can the Minister tell us, how does the Health Promotion Directorate know if any of the resources and materials are being effectively utilized in the schools, or does the Health Promotion Directorate even know that? Mr. Orchard: Is my honourable friend asking if the Department of Health Promotion and Department of Health evaluate how school counsellors use the material and whether it is effective? No, I do not believe we have that kind of information.

Again, my honourable friend might wish to pose that question if she can be part of the education efforts to find out whether school counsellors and others in the school system undertake that initiative. Ms. Gray: Is the Health Promotion Directorate continuing to evaluate new resources that would be used in smoking cessation or reduction programs? Mr. Orchard: That is correct. Ms. Gray: On what basis is the Health Promotion Directorate developing these new resources when they do not even have any idea of how the existing ones are being utilized or how effective they are? Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Chairman, there is a general belief that across the population in general, the exception being teenage girls, there is a reduction in smoking. I cannot tell my honourable friend-and I am not certain whether there is designed a survey that is going to say to you, with any accuracy whatsoever-that the package I handed to my honourable friend caused 13 percent of the population to stop smoking.

I think if my honourable friend would care to think about it, and reflect on it slightly, she might ask herself, if that package helped, what was the impact of the national advertising program; what was the impact of the media campaign under Break Free; what was the im pact of the caps that we have un der Health Promotion, Break Free, with the broken cigarette on; what is the impact on peer groups who have already quit smoking; what is the impact on cessation of smoking by the-w here they zap you in the ear- An Honourable Member: It does not work. Mr. Orchard: An old smoker says it does not work.

My honourable friend- and I may be wrong, and if I am wrong, I will fully admit to my error, but I do not 2697

Thursday, November 9, 1989 know whether one can take and say that a given package, a given advertising campaign, has caused X number of people to cease smoking. What is happening-a nd surely my honourable friend would recognize that it has been successful, in that Canada has one of the leading world rates in reduction of individual citizens smoking tobacco products. That to me indicates that the entire program, part of which is the Health Promotion Program, part of which is delivered in the schools, is part of an overall successful Canadian campaign.

I cannot tell my honourable friend, and I do not believe my Director of Health Promotion can tell my honourable friend, if the Break Free hat has caused 41 people to stop smoking; or whether it is the ad that caused 57 people to stop smoking; or whether it is the national ad that has caused 81 people to stop smoking; or whether it is the price of cigarettes being $5.00 has caused 100 people to stop smoking. It is all part of a concerted initiative by Governments across this country to break away from the smoking habit. Ms.

Gray: The Minister might be surprised about what his Director of Health Promotion might be able to tell him about evaluation. I have two points. The Min ister talked about young girls, and they are on the increase in regard to smoking cigarettes.

One comment I have is I think it might be a good idea for this particular target group to be looked at in regard to doing some sp ecific targeting of programs, whether it be done in combination with the Department of Education and the Department of Health staff, i.e. public health nurses, health educators, et cetera and to do some work on control groups, because I disagree with the Min ister. I think you can reach some conclusions in determining if a particular education program has an effect; has an impact; has results and behavioural change in a group of participants.

You can do that by looking at a control group who, of course, would be available and would have access and know about all the advertising campaigns and all the various gimmi cks there are to quit smoking. You could look at that group, and you could compare them to another specific group of people where, in effect, you actually do some specific group counselling, one to-one education, et cetera.

With taking those variables and those factors into consid eration you could make a reasonable determin ation at the end of that program whether that extra program; that individual counselling; that group work had resulted in smoking reduction or cessation by a group of individuals. So there are ways to do it, Mr. Chairperson. I am surprised that the Minister would not be aware of those. Mr.

Orchard: Is my honourable friend saying that to establish this control group, to test a piece of additional literature, that you can separate out the background and identify perfectly whether one is exposed to a television advertising campaign, a radio advertising 2698 campaign, the impact of a peer group and all of those factors? My honourable friend did not listen to my last answer. She is trying to say that all of a sudden in this liberal world of evaluation you can have these controlled trials on specific pieces of information.

I submit to my honourable friend that would be challenged by those groups, who do evaluation, as an impossible task to separate out and isolate a reduction in smoking to a single pamphlet or production of material, because of the conc erted background by many people in Government, provincial-federal, in the school systems, in various non-Government organizations like the Heart Foundation, the Lung Association who actively promote no smoking. My honourable friend is not right. Ms. Gray: Mr.

Chairperson, we will obviously agree to disagree on this, because you can take a group of 13- year-old girls who go to the same school, who come from the same socioeconomic background, who are involved in basically the same activities, who hang around in the same groups, and you can divide them up and they will be influenced by the same factors. You can take part of that group of individuals who smoke and you can also do an extra educational component with them, and I think you could come to some conclusions. Be that as it may, the Min ister and I will probably disagree on that particular aspect. (Mr.

Edward Helwer, Acting Chairman, in the Chair) *

(1530) I just have a final question for the Min ister. In moving off evaluation, I understand that in the Health Promotion Directorate there is a home economist, a nutritionist, who also has some responsibilities to staff in the Department of Agriculture. Am I correct? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Acting Chairman, maybe my honourable friend could rephrase the question, because we missed that. Ms.

Gray: What I was asking the Mini ster is: am I correct in assuming that there is a nutritionist under the Health Promotion Directorate who works with the Health Promotion Directorate, Catherine McNeil!, who also has responsibilities in providing some type of service with Department of Agriculture home economists? Mr. Orchard: Consultation is provided by that individual to the Department of Agriculture. Ms.

Gray: Can the Minister indicate-and I raise this not only because of the individual involved, but because there have been concerns expressed in the past in regard to the amount of time this particular individual is able to spend with home economis ts in the Department of Agriculture, because of course she also has responsibili ties in the Department of Health, and we often times know that you may do the work and prioritize your own staff and your own department as opposed to the work that you may need to do with another department.

Thursday, November 9, 1989 I am wondering if the Min ister can indicate if those concerns have ever been brought to the attention of his senior staff. Mr. Orchard: I am informed that the director has been made aware of that, yes. Ms. Gray: Has there been any r�solution or any way to relook at these job activities to ensure that adequate consultation is provided to staff in both departments? Mr. Orchard: Is my honourable friend saying there is not enough time that the individual, Catherine McNeill, spends with the Department of Agriculture? Is that what my honourable friend is saying?

An Honourable Member: That is the concern, yes. Mr. Orchard: Well, Mr. Acting Chairman, the individual is spending time with both Health economists and the Department of Agriculture economists, and that may be inadequate. The individual is-I cannot comment on whether it is enough, not enough or about right. If my honourable friend has some concerns she might want to indicate them, and we will take them under advisement and investigate them as to whether they are resolvable. Ms. Gray: It was a question I had raised last year in Estimates, in the Department of Agriculture.

Apparently there have been some concerns that when you have an individual in one department who has responsibilities for staff in another, those staff in Agriculture possibly feel they are getting short shrift. I would just leave it at the fact-I un derstand the Director of Health Promotion is aware-i f perhaps the Min ister of Health could possi bly investigate that and see if there has been any resolution and possibly also talk to his colleague, the Min ister of Agriculture (Mr. Fin dlay). Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Acting Chairman, I am told we have not had any formal complaints from Agriculture that were a problem, but we will take my honourable friend's advice. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Helwer): Do you have any other questions? 2.(

d) Health Promotion:

(1) Salaries $624,800- pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $443,300- pass.

(3) External Agencies $1,31 0,000-do you have a question on this one? The Member for Ellice. Ms. Gray: Mr. Acting Chair perso n, this External Agencies, does the Min ister-perhaps he has already done this- 'does he have a list of the agencies that have been given funding under this particular line? Mr. Orchard: I can make that information available to my honourable friend. Ms. Gray: That is fine. If the Min ister does not have that right now, once we have that information available if we would be able to ask questions possibly on that at a later time. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Helwer): Shall the item pass- pass. 2.(

e) Hearing Conservation:

(1) Salaries $10 8,700- the Member for Thompson. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): First of all, I was just wondering on the specific item of Salaries if the Minister could indicate the staffing situation. I assume there is a vacant position, by the fact there is a reduced amount budgeted for Salaries in this particular area, for the Min ister to clarify. Mr. Orchard: I am sorry I was just changing directors, and I wonder if my honourable friend could pose the question again. Mr. Ashton: I just asked for an explanation of the change from last year to this year. There is a reduction in salaries.

I assume there is a vacancy in the department or a partial vacancy budgeted, I am just wondering if the Min ister can clarify exactly what the change is. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Acting Chairman, there are three SYs in this area, and one of the SYs previously budgeted or voted on salary was overprovided by $5,000, and what you are seeing is just a reflection which properly states the amount required to fill that salary. There has been no change in the individual filling the position. It is just a more accurate statement of budget allocation to cover the salary. Mr.

Ashton: What I would like to ask in terms of the Hearing Conservation Program is, first of all, for an update in terms of the situation in terms of audiologists. There has been a shortage, I know, in previous years. It has been a major concern, and it has been expressed. We currently have a program, I believe, offered in each of the 10 health regions, specifically Portage, Morden, Beausejour, Steinbach, Selkirk, The Pas, Dauphin, Thompson, Brandon and four hospitals in Winnipeg.

I wonder if the Min ister can indicate the overall staffing situation and whether there are any specific shortages at any of these delivery points. Mr. Orchard: I am told that we have no shortages throughout the regions that my honourable friend has indicated. There is a total of 16 and a half staff years allocated throughout the province, and I believe all of them are currently filled. Mr. Ashton: I am just wondering what the overall situation is in terms of why, because there have been problems, I know, periodically in the past in terms of availability of trained audiologists.

I am wondering if the Min ister has information on that, whether there is likely to be an adequate suppl y or if we are liable to face difficulties in terms of training in this particular area. Mr. Orchard: In the last number of months there has been neither a recruiting problem nor an inability to 2699

Thursday , November 9, 1989 fill the positions that we have. They are subsequently, as indicated, filled positions. Mr. Ashton: So the Min ister, in terms of long-term planning in this area, does not feel there are likely to be any shortage in the future. Part of the problem has been, in terms of parallelling the situation with other health care professionals in terms of rural and northern communities, people not willing to locate. As I have said, it has been a problem on and off in a couple of locations in the past.

I am just wondering, in terms of the overall supply situation, whether the department is satisfied that we have an adequate supply of trained aud iol ogis ts and other pr ofessionals, audiometrics I guess would be the other professional classification in this area. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Acting Chairman, all I can say is the four positions tha t are available in Norman and Thompson are filled, and we at this time have all of our positions filled. I simply cannot speculate as to what the future holds, but certainly we have been able to successfully recruit and retain where needed. Mr.

Ashton: I would like to ask the Min ister for an update in terms of the various areas the Hearing Conservation Program is involved with, the clinical education and administrative. Rather than ask the Min ister for the specific details I wonder if he could just, at some point, provide information on the numb er of tests. I believe it has been in the upper 30,000 range in terms of children. Further assessments have, in the past, been around the 15, 000 range. In terms of diagnostic audiologic evaluation there have been tests in the range of 8,000. I do not know if the Mini ster has that information available.

I have information current up to '87-88, but I am wondering if the Min ister, at some point in time, could provide that information to the committee. Mr.

Orchard: I can give my honourable friend the '88- 89 actuals: preschool children, zero to four years of age, 2,492 were referred for assessment and 723 of those were confirmed to have hearing loss; school children five to 17 years, there were 35,250 screened; of those, 5, 166 were referred for assessment, and of those, 2,486 were confirmed as having a hearing loss. 01 adults 18 to 64 years old, we had 3,5 16 referred for assessment, 2,455 of those were confirmed to have a hearing loss.

Of adults over 65 years of age, we had in fiscal year '88-89, 3, 11 5 referrals for assessment, and of those, 2,977 were confirmed as having hearing loss. *

(1540) Mr. Ashton: I would like to ask the Mini ster whether there are any additional hearing centres contemplated in the province. I know even in '87 or '88 there was one established-and I know the Minister will be fairly well aware of-in Morden, the second such centre in that particular region, the central region. I am wondering if the department has any further plans to expand the number of hearing centres. Mr. Orchard: There are proposals that have been proposed.

There are no new additions this year in terms of this year's budget, and proposals of course go through, as they always have, an assessment as to whether funding will be proceeded with. Mr. Ashton: The reason I am asking the question is, because while there is a reasonably comprehensive number of centres, and in terms of each regions there are some centres, it is obvious in looking at the geographic location that people in certain areas have to travel a considerable distance to take access of the programs at the centres. I would certainly encourage the department to look at further such expansions.

I know the Minister could probably provide me with a better update in terms of the experience in the Morden centre, but I know that was introduced around '87-88 as a further expansion, so I certainly encourage it. I would like to ask a question in terms of the occupational aspects, and one of the concerns that has been expressed to myself in my other capacity as Workers Compensation Board Critic is in terms of hearing and hearing loss.

There is particular concern involving a number of cases where there is some question as to the degree to which it is occupation related, yet there are various studies that have been shown which have gone further in terms of recognizing the impact of occupational noise on hearing loss. I would like to ask what role, if any, the Department of Health plays in terms of establishing standards for both the measurement and analysis of hearing loss in occupational situations. Mr. Orchard: Basical ly, Mr.

Acting Chairman, a consultative role with Workplace Safety and Health in terms of their establishment of workplace levels and this department of Government provides as much information as they have for the establishment of those levels by Workplace Safety and Health who bring in the regulations, not the departments. Mr. Ashton: I am wondering the extent to which the department is involved in terms of education. I know it is listed as one of the mandates for this particular department.

I was wondering if the Min ister has any information on the extent of lectures and workshops that were conducted, I presume mostly with either medi cal staff or with in dividuals in educational institutions, obviously teachers, counsellors, et cetera. I am just wondering the extent to which this

section of the department is inv olved in lectures, workshops and other educational activities relating to hearing loss and hearing impairment. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Acting Chairman, the department participates at workshops throughout the province as invited or as required, but we do not keep statistics on how many participations they do. I will just leave both my hono ur able friends with a mor e recent pamph let that the division has put out. Mr. Ashton: The reason I am asking is, in terms of reviewing the activities of this particular section-we 2700

Thursday , November 9, 1989 have discussed in other areas the needs for review, et cetera-it seems if there is one area of clear advantage in terms of health prevention where you can document it, that is in this specific area. It was only a few years ago that it was very rare in the workplace, for example, to see people wearing any kind of hearing protection. I remember when I first started work at INCO it was the official policy of the comp any, I do not think it had anything to do with regulations of Government, and it was an official policy that was neglected more than it was observed.

In fact, as soon as anybody was not looking people would take off what they considered to be highly uncomfortable hearing protection, and I am sure my experience is not unique. I am sure it is a experience throughout the province. So I would urge there be a review of the extent to which this particular branch is involved in terms of that. I realize that Workplace Safety and Health also has this as its direct mandate. I do think there is a lack of recognition of the amount of damage that can take place.

I am getting people now, for example, in my own commun ity who have been working INCO 20-30 years and they are now beginning to regret not having been concerned about potential loss to their hearing. A lot of them are engaged in pretty tough fights with Workers Compensation to get recognition for the extent to which it has affected not only their working validity but also their lifestyle. When we are looking at Health promotion I would certainly encourage the Mini ster to look at a greater awareness of the potential damage from hearing loss. I should perhaps broaden it, not to go jus t to occupational.

I think that many people are exposed to high levels of noise in other areas. I remember quite a few concerts I used to go to which probably did not do mu ch for my hearing at the time. It is well documented, there is a lack of awareness of that. I feel amongst, for example, a lot of people attending concerts with high amplification, that the ear has an ability to rebound, but only so much of an ability, and in many cases you can have permanent hearing loss with continued exposure. *

(1550) With those few comments, unless the Min ister has a reply, I pass the floor back to the Acting Health Critic for the Liberals. Mr. Orchard: My honourable friend knows from wearing his second hat in Workplace Health and Safety, that is where the actual workplace education takes place. We provide diagnostic assessments, but also we train the industrial audiometric technicians who are in the workplace. We offer two training courses a year, and those are the individuals who attempt to bring more understanding and indeed more protection to people in the workplace, to individuals in the workplace.

My honourable friend's question is right. There are a lot of rather young farmers who are prematurely deaf, because with the advent of cabs they did not take precaution in terms of the ear protection. The earlier cabs did not have sound insulation, and you just sort of got used to the dull roar. I know there are a lot of young farmers 45-50 years old who are wearing hearing aids because of that alone. My honourable friend's caution, I think, by and large has been acceded to throughout various areas of the workplace.

I know in the agriculture machinery field and I think the industrial machinery field, anything that is covered in vehicles has sound level standards now that are North American standards and offer a fair degree of protection, but it was not always the case and some people have suffered un fortun ate consequences and loss of hearing. Ms. Gray: Could the Mini ster indicate, with the various staff who are providing the screening and the hearing, who do they report to, and do they have a direct line to the directorate in terms of receiving supervision? Mr.

Orchard: I am told that the individuals who are in the regions are under the supervision of the regional directors. Ms. Gray: Is the program staff supervision provided by the directorate? Mr. Orchard: The program and policy side is provided by the directorate, but the day-to-day service delivery activities are the responsibi lity of the regional directors to manage staff in that regard. Ms. Gray: Are there ever any waiting lists or is there a time delay in terms of people wanting to get in to see an audiologist for an assessment? What are the delays? Mr.

Orchard: Upwards of six months for adults for an assessment on hearing. Ms. Gray: What about for children? Mr. Orchard: One to two months. Ms. Gray: Have those waiting lists increased over the last few years or has there been any reductions? Mr. Orchard: They have been at those levels for several years apparently. Ms. Gray: Do we know what the impact is of these long waiting periods in regard to possible further deterioration of hearing on adults and on particularly the children? Mr.

Orchard: As my honourable friend would probably appreciate, in the statistics that I laid out, particularly with adu lts 65 and over where we did 3, 115 assessments, 2,977 of which were confirmed to have some hearing loss, the major outcome is a hearing aid, so what you have is a delay in full social participation but seldom a health risk per se. Ms. Gray: What about the children or the infants? Mr. Orchard: Well, children, that is why the waiting list is considerably shorter, one to two months, because 2701

Thursday, November 9, 1989 that can be a deteriorating situation that intervention may well remedy. Ms. Gray: Is there a substantial number of concerns or complaints that get registered with the department in regard to the delays or waiting lists to be seen by audiologists? Mr. Orchard: I have not had any complaints reach my office on waiting lists for audiology. There have been conc erns in terms of speech pathology bu t not audiology. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Helwer): Item (

e) Hearing Conservation,

(1) Salaries $10 8,700- pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $191, 100- pass.

(3) External Agencies $46,300- pass. Did you have a question? The Member for Ellice. Ms. Gray: Would the Min ister be prepared to give us an indication of the external agencies that are funded, if not now, in the next day we resume for Estimates? Mr. Orchard: There are only two of them. Luther Home, there is a $7000 grant; Winnip eg School Division No. 1, $46,300.00. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Helwer): Shall the item pass- pass. For a total of $346, 100.00. Go on to item (

f) Gerontology,

(1) Salaries $171 ,800- the Member for Thompson. Mr. Ashton: I have to leave in order to catch my plane back to my constituency. I did, however, want to just address a couple of points by way of a question to the Min ister. First of all, in terms of the budget-when we go through this item we should be able to get some further information-I notice there has been an increase in terms of the budgeting for this department. That is certainly a positive sign although this is one area, as I understand it, that was underspent in the previous fiscal year.

I think we all agree in this Legislature there needs to be improved programs for our seniors. What I would like to ask the Minis ter, and my apologies if I will have to read the answer in Hansard here, but I would like to ask the Minis ter just a couple of things. One is in regard to the co-ordination of seniors programs between his department which has delivered a numb er of seniors programs in the past. The handbook, for example, a numb er of programs that have been spons ored by the gerontologists, the Council on Aging, are all aspects of this particular department.

I would like to ask the extent to which there is impr oved co-ordination of programming for seniors. I think there has been concern expressed over the confusion surrounding the Min ister respo nsible for Seniors, the Seniors Directorate. I think there is a real feeling there needs to be greater co-ordination. I know there has been some concern, the extent to which the appointment of the Min ister for Seniors has achieved that. I would appr eciate if the Mini ster could advise the committee as to the extent, the relationship between this

section of the depa rtment and the Min ister responsible for Seniors, the degree of co-ordination between the various activities, in addition as well, the direction this particular

section of the department is taking in terms of external agencies, funding of outside projects. This is one area where there is a sign ificant numb er of groups that have a lot of good ideas. I am encouraged, as I said, to see increased funding for external agencies. I would appreciate if the Minister could provide us with some information on what those agencies are, and also if the Minister will be looking at further support for outside agencies.

As I said, there are a number of agencies which either represent seniors or deal directly with seniors or seniors issues that I know would be out there providing the programming if the funding was available. So with those two particular points, my apologies to the Min ister but I will certainly read the answers in Hansard. (Mr. Chairman in the Chair) Mr.

Orchard: Just brie fly, to answer my honourable friend's concern about some of the lapsed funding from last year, we have a unique situation that troubles this program in terms of the formal approval and the cash flowing, which cannot be done until we have some pretty serious in dication of a budge t passi ng. As my honourable friend well knows, that was signif icantly delayed last year . Many new agencies are anxious awaiting their funding again this year and will receive same. * (16 00) Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass-the Member for Sturgeon Creek. Mrs.

Iva Yeo (Sturgeon Creek): I am wondering, with the very obvious increase in the number of seniors in our population, and for all purpo ses we know that is going to continue, what sorts of funding will be available to increase the number of seats in the gerontology program that I believe is still offered at the University of Manitoba. Mr. Orchard: You see, I cannot answer that, as to whether there will be an incre�se. That just is not a direct responsibility that I have.

We have discussions, for instance, with the Faculty of Medicine in terms of disciplines which are more appropriately focused on an aging population like gerontology, like rheumatology. I think there is consensus around the issue that there ought to be more graduates, but it is a little more comple x than sim ply establishin g the numb er of dedicated slots to that training discipline. We do have some specific fee

schedule issues with gerontology and particularly rheumatology that need to be resolved. Let me indicate to my honourable friend that is one aspect of addressing the issue of an aging population. I think that within the gerontology area of 2702

Thursday, November 9, 1989 this department, from a program standpoint I am quite convinced that we are on the right track. You have to appreciate in support services for seniors, this is a program, and I have never been reticent to give credit where credit was due, this was a program that was initiated about 1985 to meet a need of funding for all intents and purpose to put the program in simplistic terms that volunteer co-ordination of additional services the communi ty might be able to offer to its senior population. It has had four to five years.

We think it has been a quite successful initiative and we are providing one of the larger increases in terms of the external agencies in this department to fund more of support services for seniors programs throughout the province. At the same time, so that my honourable friend, the Member for Ellice will feel care and comfort, we are going to, I do not know whether we will complete it this fiscal year, but certainly we intend to undertake an evaluation of how the support services for seniors funding has been delivered and how effectively the object ives of the pr ogram have been met in the communit y.

Particularly, I am looking for as Min ister, of facing innu merable requests for funding throughout the whole system. I am looking for some answers as to how effectively the support services for seniors programs th roughout the province have been maintai nin g individuals economically in their home environment, deferring for a period of time the need, for instance, home care, and certainly we think or I believe, deferring for a period of time the panelling process and eventual placement in a personal care home setting.

I think that this program has been for $1. 8 million this year of anticipated expenditures, I think a quite effective program because it builds upon a natural desire and good will in the community as expressed through volunteers to provide that extra service that Governments simply are not mandated nor can afford to provide.

I do not know what the value, I do not know whether we can evaluate the financial contribution that volunteers brought into the service delivery mode that this $1. 8 million, I do not know whether we could get a handle on how much the volunteer service component would be worth if Government had to staff it and provide it. I know it would be significant. Mrs. Yeo: The Minister is a master at pres enting a soliloquy of ideas that evolve from one question about gerontology courses at the University of Manitoba to then go on and talk about seniors programs and volunteer programs, et cetera.

What I would like to do after that sort of eight-minute presentation is get back to the question on gerontology. The program that I am referring to is one that I have heard there have been several requests for from suppor t medical people. I am thinking of LPNs and RNs, the nurses aid communit y, and in fact from the families who are going to be faced with the dilemma of aging parents and grandparents and who have said we feel ill-prepared to tackle this sort of situation. Are there plans in progress to increase the programs that will be availat;ile for these people that I have referred to. Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Chairman, the reason I answered that question in part to my honourable friend and then talked about the support services for seniors program is that is what this line of the Estimate involves.

What my honourable friend is talking about is programs under continuing education which are available through U of M, Red River Communit y Colle ge, Assiniboine Commun ity College, and I think my honourable friend, as Education Critic, would appreciate that I do not have direct knowledge as to how available they are, although I understand there are no restrictions on entry to those courses, but I would not feel confident in answering questions of that nature which are the competence and program and the responsibility of one of my colleagues. Mrs.

Yeo: Perhaps the reason I ask the question of this particular Min ister is because the other day when I posed questions to the Min ister of Education (Mr. Derkach) in the House, the Minis ter of Health (Mr. Orchard) bobbed up and answered all three questions. So, pardon me, Sir , but I am just following previous actions from this particular Minister. Mr. Orchard: Well, pardon me, Ma'am, for answering your questions. Mrs. Yeo: I was not so sure that the questions had been answered, but thank you. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass-the Member for Ellice. Ms.

Gray: Is the Min ister indicating by his answers to the Member for Sturgeon Creek (Mrs. Yeo) that the gerontolog ist of the province does not have any involvement whatsoever with any type of continuing education or courses that may go on at the University of Manitoba in regard to courses related to age and gerontology, et cetera? Mr. Orchard: No, that was not the indication of my answer. Ms. Gray: Can the Min ister tell us then, does the gerontologist have any involvement in her capacity as gerontologist in regard to these courses that are carried on at the un iversity level? Mr. Orchard: Yes, Mr. Chairman. Ms.

Gray: Can the Min ister tell us what the nature of that involvement is? Mr. Orchard: I believe the head of Gerontology sits on the Advisory Committee. Ms. Gray: The gerontologist sits on the Advisory Comm ittee. Did I hear correctly? Mr. Orchard: Yes, my honourable friend heard correctly. Ms. Gray: Can the Minister then indicate in regard to the questions that were asked by the Member for Sturgeon Creek, would the Min ister then not have this 2703

Thursday, November 9, 1989 information or be able to glean this information from the gerontologist who sits on the Advisory Comm ittee? • (1610 ) Mr. Orchard: I believe I answered any question my honourable friend posed. Would my honourable friend from Ellice care to pose the question so that I can attempt to provide h

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-2-68
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 2nd hansardpdf 68.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	f25dd9384b2e9d8cbc036cc5836f0e81d8f2912c

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