Manitoba Hansard — 24 June 2002 (Sitting 53, 37th Legislature, 3rd Session)

37-3-53

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session- Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LII No. 53- 1:30 p.m., Monday, June 24, 2002

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARRETT, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMfNGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HA WRANIK, Gerald HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKfNTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWAY,Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MJHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie MURRAY, Stuart NEV AKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBfNSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELfNGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott, Hon. STEFANSON, Heather STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charles wood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Lac du Bonnet Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Kirkfield Park Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Rossmere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Tuxedo Dauphin-Rob lin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C.

N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

2755 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday,June 24, 2002 The House met at 1: 30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Transcona-Spring field School Division Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Rachel Mustard, Fred Mustard, Joshua Mustard and others pray ing that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request the Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) to reverse the decision to split the Transcona Springfield School Division and allow it to remain as a whole or to consider immediately convening the Board of Reference to decide the matter.

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Transcon a-Spri ngfield School Division Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler), I have reviewed the petition and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Clerk, please read. Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): The peti tion of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth THAT on November 8, 2001, the Minister of Education (Mr.

Caldwell) announced a split in the Transcona-Springfield School Division but despite repeated requests has been unable to identify any benefits of this decision to the stu dents and taxpayers of said school division; and THAT this decision was not preceded by adequate public consultation as outlined in sec tion 7 of The Public Schools Act; and THAT this decision would result in signifi cant hardships for the students in both Transcona and Springfield that would affect the quality of their education; and THAT the proposal by the Minister of Edu cation on February 12, 2002, neither alleviates nor remedies these hardships; and THAT this decision results in an increased financial burden on the taxpayers of both the Transcona-Springfield School Division and the province of Manitoba; and THAT on March 13, 2002, the number of resident electors required by The Public Schools Act requested the Minister of Education to convene a Board of Reference to decide the matter.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assem bly request the Minister of Education to reverse the decision to split the Transcona-Springfield School Division and allow it to remain as a whole or to consider immediately convening the Board of Reference to decide the matter. Universities Property Tax Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Fort Garry (Mrs. Smith), I have reviewed the petition and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Clerk, please read.

Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): On January 11, 2002, the Government of Manitoba announced a five-year phased-in property tax plan for four of the province's universities. The Government of Manitoba's plan shifts the universities' property tax bills directly onto the taxpayers of Winnipeg and Brandon.

2756 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 24, 2002 The cost to the City of Winnipeg for 2002 will be $1.3 million, rising to $6.64 million in 2006, for an accumulated loss of $19.9 million over five years. The loss of almost $20 million over five years will have negative consequences for the City of Winnipeg's efforts to lower property taxes and make Winnipeg more competitive. While all taxpayers in Winnipeg will be adversely af fected, those taxpayers residing in the school divisions of Fort Garry, Assiniboine South, St. Boniface, St.

Vital and Winnipeg No. 1 will also see increases in their local education taxes. The Fort Garry, Assiniboine South, Winni peg No. 1 and St. Boniface school divisions will lose $1.86 million in total this year, rising to $9.34 million in 2006, for an accumulated rev enue loss of $28 million over five years. The Government of Manitoba has made it clear that it will not in any way make up the loss of tax dollars the universities currently pay to municipalities and school divisions.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: We request the Government of Manitoba to consider ensuring that local property and edu cation taxes do not rise as a result of the off loading of provincial responsibilities onto the City of Winnipeg, the City of Brandon, the Fort Garry, Assiniboine South, Winnipeg No. 1, St. Boniface and St. Vital school divisions. * (13 :35) MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Flood Forecast Hon. Oscar Lathlin (Minister of Conser vation): Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a state ment to the House.

I rise to provide members of the House with the latest update on the flooding situation in southern Manitoba. Rainfall Sunday night was relatively light compared to the extreme down pours observed in portions of Minnesota Sat urday night. However, a further 10 to 15 millimetres, or 0.4 to 0.6 inches, fell over much of the flood area of southeastern Manitoba. In the United States portion, heavy rain fell mainly in areas west and south of Fargo. How ever, these rains will have little eff ect on river levels and forecasts.

Levels of the Roseau River continue to rise slowly with increases of 0.2 to 0.4 feet in the 24-hour period ending this morn ing. Additional rises of 1 to 1.5 feet are expected at Gardenton and Stuartburn. Low-lying homes in these towns have been diked so flooding of these is not expected. The crest should occur toward the end of this week. Water levels in the Gardenton Floodway have risen to the point where a small portion of water is flowing over a low spot in the west dike. This part of the dike is well grassed so a washout is not expected.

However, the pos sibility of a washout later this week cannot be ruled out. Additional rises in the floodway should be 0.25 feet or so. A strategy to reduce pressure on the Gardenton Floodway dikes will be implemented later today. This involves re moving some logs from the dam to allow some water to flow down the old river channel to the east. This will be done carefully in stages to prevent overtopping of the old river channel. Levels of the Red River continue to decline in the Manitoba portion, with falls of close to 0.5 feet in the past 24 hours.

A second crest due to heavy downpours in Minnesota Saturday night is developing in the United States. It now appears this crest will be somewhat lower than originally predicted. It appears unlikely that the second crest will be higher than that of last week in the Emerson and Letellier area. Further north, the crest will definitely be lower than the crest of last week. The second crest is expected at Emerson July 5 and in the Winnipeg area on July 8, Mr. Speaker. River levels in downtown Winnipeg fell to 15.9 feet this morning, which is still 9.6 feet above the normal summer level.

The level is expected to be above 14 feet until near mid-July. The threat of basement flooding due to possible heavy thundershowers over the city will remain until that time. The maximum level should not be higher than 16 feet unless additional heavy rain develops. There is little threat of basement

June 24, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2757 flooding in the city from now until the weekend based on present forecasts. The Winnipeg River remains unusually high, with levels close to five feet above the summer normal in the Nutimik area. However, the crest appears close and little further rise is expected. * (13: 40) EMO is continuing to co-ordinate provincial assistance to communities affected and/or under threat of further flooding.

To date, there are 10 declared local states of emergency, and requests for disaster financial assistance have been re ceived from 16 rural municipalities, plus the town of Emerson and the village of St. Pierre Jolys. I understand some initial payments are occurring as soon as this afternoon. Approximately 15 to 20 families remain out of their homes due to flooding or flood damage. A number of roads remain closed due to flood ing and a number of others are experiencing effects caused by high waters. I have tabled this information for the House.

Equipment for the Department of Trans portation and Government Services remains on standby for emergency diking. Mr. Harry Enos (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I know all of us on this side of the House express our ongoing concern to the residents of southeast Manitoba who are experiencing this hardship, and we are certainly supportive of everything the minister, department and Emergency Measures Organization are undertaking. However, it also shows us how very closely linked we are with what happens in Minnesota and North Dakota.

Aside from good photo ops with the now-departing Jesse Ventura, Governor of Minnesota, or other things like that, this fall, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers is bringing more U.S. water into Manitoba, and this Govern ment is doing nothing about it. So I ask the Premier (Mr. Doer) to come back from his governors' meeting with some hard information as to how we can, in a civil way, respect the long-standing boundary agree ment that governs international waters on such important issues like Devils Lake water that is going to be funnelled into Manitoba starting this fall. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, I ask for leave to speak to the minist er's statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: Leave has been denied. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General) : Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table the Law Reform Commission 31st Annual Report 2001-2002, and the Seizure and Impoundment Registry Annual Report for 2001-2002. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 38- The Public Health Amendment Act Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Ms.

Friesen), that leave be given to introduce Bill 38, The Public Health Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur la sante publique, and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Chomiak: The Public Health Amendment Act will allow public health inspectors and peace officers to search for and seize substances and equipment that are reasonably believed to be for purposes of inhaling intoxicants. It will also con tain consequential amendments to other acts per mitting this type of function to suspend and deal with this matter. Motion agreed to. Introdu ction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable

2758 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 24, 2002 members to the Speaker's Gallery where we have with us today Mrs. Mae Salikin. Mrs. Salikin is the sister and guest of the honourable Member for Fort Garry (Mrs. Smith). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. Also in the public gallery we have from Windsor School 50 Grades 7 to 9 students under the direction of Mr. Chris Arnold. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for St. Vital (Ms. Allan). Also in the public gallery we have from Ste. Rose School 23 Grade 5 students under the direction of Mrs. Judy Wolff.

This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. * (13: 45) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Manitoba Hydro Debt Reduction Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, because this Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) ran a deficit last year, he is now forcing Manitoba Hydro to give the Doer government a million dollars a day.

In their most recent report on Manitoba Hydro dated last October, Dominion Bond Rating Service stated that, and I will quote, the utility is not subject to a strict dividend policy which typically limits debt reduction and the growth opportunities of other government-owned utilities. We know that this Government is demanding a huge dividend from Hydro. Will the minister admit that his million-dollar-a-day grab will have an impact on the debt reduction of Manitoba Hydro? Hon.

Greg Selinger (Minister char ged with the admin istration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): The report from the Dominion Bond Rating Service actually improved our outlook from stable to positive, and for that reason I am glad that the member opposite has raised that report because it is the first time, I believe, in about seven years that we have had an improvement in our rating from that agency. Mr.

Murray: That is interesting because it says very clearly, according to the financial outlook of Manitoba Hydro, the Dominion Bond Rating Service stated, with its commitment to ensure capital expenditures do not exceed internally generated funds, the financial ratios of the utility should improve slowly as long as the dividend payment to the Province is avoided. That is according to the Dominion Bond Rating Service, Mr. Speaker. We know this Government is de manding a huge dividend from Manitoba Hydro.

Will the minister confirm sworn testimony of Manitoba Hydro officials that his million-dollar a-day grab will delay Hydro achieving their pre scribed debt equity ratio by at least five years? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, Manitoba Hydro was ahead of its original projections on its ability to meet its targets and, as I have indicated earlier, during the last six years Manitoba Hydro has generated $943 million of profits, a very strong record for any Crown corporation in this country.

Out of that $943 million dollars, we are proposing to take $288 million over the next three years to stabilize the finances in Manitoba. This Dominion Bond Rating Service report has acknowledged the good financial management we have by increasing our rating from stable to positive for the long term. Mr. Murray: What this Minister of Finance is ignoring is that the Dominion Bond Rating Serv ice set off alarm bells warning Manitoba Hydro and he has absolutely ignored them, Mr. Speaker.

Will the Minister of Finance acknowl edge that his million-dollar-a-day grab is going to cost Manitoba Hydro whether it is on the debt services or the fact that it is going to have to increase its rates? Why will he not come clean with Manitobans? Mr. Selinger: What we have here is a repeat of questions that we have answered previously. We have indicated from the very beginning that Manitoba Hydro would have to on a business case basis justif y borrowing for other capital projects. That is normal practice in any corpo ration, Mr. Speaker.

Corporations do justify their capital borrowing based on the value of the assets they are going to acquire and build in the organization. What is important here is for the first time in seven years this agency has improved the rating for the Government of Manitoba and the

June 24, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2759 management that it has provided to all its entities, including Crown corporations. * (13:50) Manitoba Hydro Financial Statements Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, senior officials at Manitoba Hydro have con firmed that on June 13, more than 10 days ago, the board of Manitoba Hydro passed a motion whereby they approved the financial statements ending March 31, 2002, of Manitoba Hydro. Obviously, the Premier (Mr.

Doer) and the Minister of Finance, the Minister responsible for Hydro, have had access to these statements because just last week, on June 18, they both stood up in this House and quoted Hydro's profits at $209 million. I am wondering if the Minister responsible for Hydro would be willing to share with all Manitobans today how much cash was on hand at March 31. Hon.

Greg Selinger (Minister char ged with the admini stration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): I am very pleased that the Member for Fort Whyte has finally acknowledged that the profit for Manitoba Hydro is in the order of some where between $209 million and $215 million. We are starting to make progress in under standing just how profitable that corporation has been over and above what its original forecasts were. During the last six years it has had a profit of $945 million.

Out of that $945 million, we are projecting a dividend in the order of $288 million spread over the last fiscal year and the next two fiscal years. Mr. Loewen: I would ask the minister if he will stand by the Premier's statements, who said on June 18 the profit of $209 million includes the first three months. He also said Manitoba Hydro will make $209 million in '0 1. Those are direct quotes from the Premier of this province. If the Premier and the minister have seen the profit numbers from the statements that have been approved, why will he not share with Mani tobans the amount of cash on hand at March 31? Mr.

Selinger: Once again, I am delighted that the members acknowledge that there has been a profit of at least $209 million projected for the '01-02 fiscal year for Manitoba Hydro, and out of that $209 million we are projecting a $150- million dividend. When you deduct $150 million from $209 million, it is plain to see that there will be a healthy profit for Manitoba Hydro in that fiscal year. Mr. Loewen: My supplementary to the Minister of Finance. You have seen the statements ap proved by the board. How much cash is on hand at March 31?

How much money did they have in the bank before you are trying to take $150 million out? Mr. Selinger: First of all, Mr. Speaker, the Member for Fort Whyte should not make assumptions about which statements I have seen. I have not yet received the financial statements for Manitoba Hydro, but they have indicated very clearly that their profits will be $209 million for the '01-02 fiscal year. For the year prior to that they were $270 million, for the year prior to that they were $152 million, for the year prior to that, $100 million and for the two years prior to that, $212 million.

It is plain to see that out of the $945 million of profits, a dividend of $288 million is a sustainable amount. There has been testimony in front of the Public Utilities Board that indicates that with this dividend there is no expectation rates will have to increase as a result of that. Their normal forecasts will hold, and we can be very thankful we have a utility that can generate those profits to allow us to stabilize finances in Manitoba when corporate taxes are down $228 million. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Official Opposition House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, Beauchesne 417: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and not provoke debate. Three very simple questions and they all related to how much cash was on hand to fix the $150-million cash grab that this minister did. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Minister of Finance, on the same point of order. Mr. Selinger: I will not take the opportunity to abuse the rules like the Official Opposition

2760 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 24, 2002 House Leader and make a speech on a point of order. I will simply say I have tried to answer the question thoroughly. I have done it many times, and I have done so again today. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Lead er, it is not a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. * * * Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. If you do not mind, I think my responsibility as a Speaker is to conduct business of the House. I will try the best I can.

The honourable Minister of Finance, have you concluded your comments? Mr. Selinger: Yes, I have, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Okay, very good. * (13:55) Mr. Loewen: Mr. Speaker, the facts are simple. The board of Manitoba Hydro approved their annual report on June 13. I am going to ask the minister why he is not following the act, The Manitoba Hydro Act, which in

section 46(1) states: The minister shall lay a copy of the report of the board before the Legislative Assembly forthwith. I remind him that Webster's dictionary defi nition of "forthwith" is "immediately." Why is this minister sitting on the statements? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, when the statements are provided to me, I will be happy to provide them to the Legislature. Mr. Loewen: Mr.

Speaker, if this minister and if the Premier have not seen these statements, then why, on June 18, did the Premier stand up in this House and say the profit of $209 million in cludes the first three months of this year, and also say Manitoba Hydro will make $209 million in the '0 1 year? Those are direct quotes from Hansard. Is the minister saying that he and the Premier are just making this number up, and they have not seen the statements? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, I know the member opposite likes to develop conspiracy theories on a regular basis and often does it on the basis of inaccurate information.

If he would look at the Budget document that we have provided, in that Budget document we very clearly said on page-it looks like B19, that there would be approximately a $209- million profit. That is the source of the infor mation, and that is the source that was available to the member for the last couple of months. Mr. Loewen: Mr. Speaker, my question to the minister is: Who is sitting on the statements? Who is hiding the information from Manitobans, the Minister of Finance or the Minister respon sible for Hydro? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, once again I have provided accurate information.

At the day that we dropped the Budget that information was available to the member opposite. Now he seems to have discovered it two and a half months later. If he would have done his homework and read the Budget document, he would have seen that the information was right there. Instead, he takes the slow and lazy approach and discovers it two and a half months later. Palliat ive Care Medication Expenses Mrs.

Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): In September 2000 and again in September 2001, this Minister of Health stood before hundreds of people at a palliative care conference and prom ised that people dying at home would not have to pay for medications. In fact, some of those people that were at those conferences were people who were dying. I would like to ask this Minister of Health why he broke his promise to these people. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I attended both of those conferences because we took a very serious view of palliative care.

We announced a dedicated home care serv ice to palliative care. We put in place a 24-hour, seven day per week professional nursing response team that

June 24, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2761 was not in place when members opposite were government. We put in place specialized case managers and essential support services to palliative care that were not in place when the member sat around with members opposite. We put in place medical and surgical sup plies; we put in place capital equipment; and we put in place dedicated physicians to palliative care. It was part of a 2. 75-million comprehensive palliative care package that we announced com ing into office in order to deal with the issue of palliative care. Mrs. Driedger: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to table a letter that the minister received on May 21 from Hospice and Palliative Care Manitoba, which, by the way, he has not responded to and he has had it for over a month, where they say, and I quote, it is now a full 18 months after the announcement and families are still bearing the financial burden. This is unacceptable. It is time for you and your Government to live up to your word. I would to ask this Minister of Health: When is he going to live up to his word? * (14:00) Mr. Chomiak: First off, Mr.

Speaker, we put in place a palliative care program that is second to none in the country, of which we have been recognized as having one of the best in the country. We put that in place upon coming into office to deal with palliative care. I might add, when the members opposite were in government for 11 years-nothing, for 11 years when that member was an assistant to the Minister of Health there was not a program like this. So, for the members opposite to be saying after 18 months, I think is a bit stretching it.

We have not put in place the final portion of that program, which is the drug portion which we are working on. I admit, Mr. Speaker, I would like to have done it sooner. It will happen. But, we are-[interjection] If the members opposite want to hear the rest of the answer, I will give it next time. Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask this Minister of Health: Does his word not mean anything to him anymore? Mr. Chomiak: When I stood in front of the palliative care conference and put our commit ment-[interjection] Mr.

Speaker, when I stood in front of the palliative care conference and outlined a comprehensive palliative care pro gram, we put in place a comprehensive palliative care program at St. Boniface, 24 hours. The final component is the drug portion. You are aware, we are all aware in this Legislature of the pressures on drugs. It was a commitment made, Mr. Speaker. It will be a commitment kept, and it will happen. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Charleswood, on a new question. Freedom of In formation Requests Alterations Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): On a new question, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, the ability to get information through Freedom of Information was put into place because people were frustrated by govern ment secrecy and needed a process where they could get correct information from the govern ment. Last week, this Government tampered with that process. I would like to ask the Minister of Health if he could tell us why two Freedom of Infor mation documents, not one, but two, were changed after he learned that these two docu ments showed an alarming increase in the numbers of nursing vacancies in the ICUs at the Health Sciences Centre and at St. B.

Why did this information change after his office made a call to the WRHA? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, when we came into office we took FIPP A, which was not extended to the regional health authorities and the hospitals, and we extended it to the regions and to the hospitals, something that was not done for 11 years. We could not get that information. The heights of hypocrisy have been stated in this Chamber today when we hear members opposite, who failed to provide that information, when we took it and we extended it to all the

2762 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 24, 2002 regions and all the hospitals and anyone can FIPP A it. I am amazed, Mr. Speaker, at the extent to which members opposite will attempt to deal with matters that they failed to deal with for 11 years. Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the original Freedom of Information docu ments and the revised ones that I received. I would like to ask the Minister of Health: Who ordered that these numbers be changed to make the situation look less serious than what it was? Who ordered those numbers to be changed? Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, the Opposition has tabled and FIPPA'd literally hundreds and hundreds and thousands of documents that we have allowed, because we extended the act to include regional health authorities and hospitals. We provided the authority for the regional health authorities and the hospitals to provide that information. Members opposite might have interfered in the process. They might have pre vented information when they were government. Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Turtle Mountain, on a point of order. Mr. Mervin Tweed (furtle Mountain): Yes, Mr. Speaker.

Beauchesne 417: must not provoke debate. The minister is very well aware these numbers were changed last Thursday after an inquiry was made to his department. The Winnipeg Regional Health Authority adjusted the numbers they presented to us in February and again this spring. The question is simple: Who are the people of Manitoba to trust? Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Health, on the same point of order. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, I do not know how members operated when they were in govern ment. They might have manipulated, changed, called people and then told them not to do things.

FIPP A was extended to the hospitals; information is provided, and it continues to be provided. Whether or not information is pro- vided that is different from what members opposite wanted or from what information is, is the position and the purview of the agency that offers the information. But to suggest that we would- An Honourable Member: Changed the numbers. You changed the numbers. Mr. Chomiak: Members opposite might have followed that practice, but it is not the practice of members on this side of the House. Mr. Speaker: Order.

On the point of order raised by the honourable Member for Turtle Mountain, he does have a point of order. I would like to draw to the attention of all honourable ministers, Beauchesne 417: Answers to ques tions should deal with the matter that is raised. *** Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Health, to conclude his answer. Mr. Chomiak: Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker. The information tabled by the member opposite, as far as I can see, is information that was provided from the WRHA to the members oppo site. Now what is the member talking about? Mrs. Driedger: Mr.

Speaker, what are Mani tobans to believe now that this Minister of Health has called into question the validity of all FOis that are presented to this House, and he has seriously damaged what little transparency there is in our health care system? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, when I was the Health critic for a period of seven years, we could not get information from hospitals; it was not allowed. We could not get information from regional health authorities; it was not allowed. We could not FIPP A that information; it was not allowed.

When we came into office, we said we would allow that information to be provided to the public, and we extended FIPP A to include agencies, health authorities and hospitals. I daresay the member has got more wrong that she said in this House than in any FIPP A documents I have ever seen. Winni peg Casinos Second-Hand Smoke Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): In Ques tion Period on May 9, the Minister responsible

June 24, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2763 for the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation said in reference to the casinos: I want to point out, and this is a quote, that those workers who have especially asked that they have work that does not bring them into contact with second-hand smoke are being accommodated. Olivia Caceres, who works at the McPhillips Street Station and is now seven and a half months pregnant, has not been accommodated, even though requests were made by herself and her doctor in February, in March, in April, in May and in June. Why has Olivia Caceres not been accommodated? Hon.

Diane McGifford (Minister char ged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act) : I beg to differ with the information presented by the member today, but I also want to state I do not think it is in the interests of the public, nor do I think it is in the interests of this absolute individual, who certain ly has not given me licence to speak in this Legislature about her. So, since this is a human resources matter, I really do not want to discuss it in this House. However, I do invite the mem ber opposite, if he wishes, to meet me in my office and discuss this individual, this matter. Mr.

Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary to the minister: Why is the minister not so con cerned about the effects of second-hand smoke on pregnant women that she did not ensure that Olivia Caceres was in a smoke-free area rather than just in a so-called designated, so designated non-smoking area which is so close to an area where there is a lot of smoke, that she is exposed to a lot of second-hand smoke? Ms. McGifford: Mr. Speaker, several years ago I think I showed my commitment to pregnant women and the effects of second-hand smoke when I joined with the current Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines (Ms.

Mihychuk) and made sure there is not smoking allowed in the room next door, in the members' room just out side here. I have already said to the member that I do not accept the information put on the record by the member. In fact, attempts have been made to accommodate this individual, the details I am willing to discuss with the member in my office. It is a personnel issue, it is a human resources issue, and I am not prepared to discuss the de tails of this individual's affair in this House. * (14 :10) Mr. Gerrard: Mr.

Speaker, this is a health issue, and if it had been resolved over the course of the last several months or even when I wrote to the minister several weeks ago, it would not have been necessary to bring it up here. So I ask the minister once again: Why has she hesitated to take effective action on behalf of this pregnant woman and others? Ms. McGifford: If this member truly seeks an answer, truly seeks information, he can follow the course of action that I have outlined. Instead, he wants to politically grandstand in this House.

He is not interested in this individual, or he would come to my office as I have suggested. Freedom of Information Requests Alterations Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): Manitobans are becoming more and more disillusioned about who they should trust with this Government. When the current Government does not like the numbers, they change them. By redoing the numbers, the Health Minister has reduced the number of vacant ICU nursing positions from 116 to 82.

My question is simple to the minister: Did he or anyone in his office contact the regional health authority last Thurs day and ask them to adjust the numbers? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, the regional health authority receives FIPP As. It provides that information to members opposite and has done so; hundreds and hun dreds, maybe thousands of pages. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Turtle Mountain, on a new question. Mr. Tweed: My question is: Who encouraged the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority to change the numbers last Thursday?

Last Thurs day we presented the minister with a set of num bers that were provided through Freedom of Information and immediately those numbers were adjusted. The question is simple. Is the

2764 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 24, 2002 minister tampering with the numbers given to us by the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority? Mr. Chomiak: The member is talking about providing me with numbers last Thursday. The members did not provide me with any numbers last Thursday. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Turtle Mountain, on a new question? Mr. Tweed: Yes, Mr. Speaker. It is becoming more and more obvious. We raise the Hydro issue one day in the House; the next day we get a letter from the president. We raise the Workers Compensation Board; the next day we get a letter from the chairman.

Now we raise the numbers issue given to us on a Freedom of Information by the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority; immediately we get a corrected notice of the change in numbers. My question: Is the mm1ster, or Terry Goertzen, or is somebody directing the Winni peg Regional Health Authority to change the numbers and not provide us with the accurate numbers when requested? Mr. Chomiak: Let me see if I understand what the member said. The member said that they presented some numbers here that we dealt with. There were no numbers provided in this House by members opposite.

Second [interjection} An Honourable Member: You asked the ques tion; let him answer. Mr. Chomiak: If the member is interested in an answer, if he would allow me to answer the question, perhaps I could clear up the confusion that the member is having with this issue. First off, the members opposite talked about presenting numbers here. As I recall last week, Mr. Speaker, the members did not present any numbers with respect to this. They did not deal with that. Secondly, they have provided hun dreds of requests, as far as I understand, to the various regions and that information is provided to members opposite.

The members talk about changing numbers. From the information that I have in front of me that the members provided, there are numbers provided and there are additional numbers pro vided. I do not know what the members are talking about. Workers Compensation Inv estments- True North Project Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell) : My question is to the Minister of Labour. In 1988, the Pawley government left the Workers Compensation Board with an $11.2-million deficit and a $232- million unfunded liability. In contrast, in 1999 the Filmon government left the Workers Com pensation Board with an $8-million surplus.

They had eliminated the unfunded liability and left a $20-million accident fund in place. Today, the Minister of Labour (Ms. Barrett) has an operating deficit of $2.4 million, which she has raided from the reserve to make sure her books are balanced. At the same time, rates are going up by 11.4 percent. How can the minister justify putting $7.5 million more dollars of ratepayers' money at risk, knowing that in fact taking an equity posi tion puts those ratepayer dollars at risk? Hon.

Becky Barrett (Minister charged with the admin istration of The Workers Compen sation Act): First of all, the rate increase as of July I is 4. 7 percent, not 11-something that the member put on the record. The assessment rate, even with that increase, still the lowest rate in the country compared to Alberta; just take one example of one province, the province of Al berta, where the workers compensation rates went up in one year 23.7 percent. We still have the lowest rates in workers compensation in the country. Mr.

Speaker, on May 31, the chair of the Workers Compensation Board wrote to the Member for Kirkfield Park (Mr. Murray), the Leader of the Official Opposition, and copied the member for Roblin, the workers compen sation critic, suggesting they might want to come and be briefed by the chair of the Workers Compensation Board. I suggest they take advan tage of that offer. Mr. Derkach: On a new question, Mr. Speaker.

June 24, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2765 Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Russell, on a new question. Mr. Derkach : Mr. Speaker, experience shows when the Government gets into trouble they run to one of their CEOs to write a letter to the Opposition. When Hydro got into difficulty, Mr. Brennan was asked to write a letter explaining Hydro's position. When the Workers Compen sation Board gets in trouble, Mr. Fox-Decent is told to write a letter to explain their position. I hold the minister accountable, and that is whom I have a question for.

I want to ask this minister why, through this investment, she is putting ratepayer money at risk, $7.5 million worth, and in fact, because Workers Compensation has taken an equity position, a shareholder position, a cash call may be made which will indeed put more than $7.5 million at risk. Why is this minister doing this? Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, I would refer to the third point from the May 31 letter to the Leader of the Official Opposition (Mr.

Murray) and to the member for Roblin, and I quote: With regard to True North, the Workers Compensation Board investment committee has agreed to a standby line of credit of $7.5 million. The funds may or may not be used, but if used we will have a very favourable rate of return. I again ask the Official Opposition why they do not go to the chair of the Workers Compen sation Board who is on the investment commit tee which is under no control of the Government certainly not under control of this Government' to get the specific answers. ' Mr. Derkach : On a new question. Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Member for Russell, on a new question. M_r. Derkach : The responses we are getting in thts House are incredible. First, the Minister responsible for Lotteries says to a question: Come to my office and I will answer it. Now, this minister says: Go to the chair of Workers Compensation Board; they can answer it. What do we have ministers here for? My question is to this minister. She keeps saying that this is a line of credit when, in fact, shareholder units have been issued to Workers Compensation Board. Is this not an investment? Ms. Barrett: Mr.

Speaker, clearly the members opposite are not concerned with the development of downtown Winnipeg. However, if the Mem ber for Fort Whyte (Mr. Loewen) cannot make it happen, he does not want it to happen by any body else. * (14:20) Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, this minister has bungled another issue. First it was MPI. Today we see that MPI is running a deficit because of her bungling. Now it is Workers Compensation Board. Now she has put ratepayer dollars at risk because of an unwise investment showing that indeed more than $7.5 million is going to be put at risk.

Will this mmtster guarantee that no more than $7.5 million of ratepayer money will be put at risk through Workers Compensation Board? Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, the investment committee decisions, of which this is one the investment committee of the Workers Co�pen sation Board of Manitoba manages an invest ment portfolio of over $700 million. They do not come to the Government in any way, shape or form for any approval, because it is an arm's length Crown agency. This is the role of the investment committee as laid out by The Workers Compensation Act.

It is the Workers Compensation Board investment committee that makes those decisions and takes on that responsibility. The person that has offer ed to provide all of the specific detail back ground is the chair of the Workers Compen sation Board, Wally Fox-Decent. I again ask the members opposite: Why do they not take advantage of the offer to meet personally with the chair of the Workers Com pensation Board? They do not obviously want to know the answers. They want to continue this personal attack on the chair of the Workers Compensation Board. Department of Justice Staff Conduct Mrs.

Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, in April 2000 Mr. Deveryn Ross contacted the Minister of Justice's office to express concerns

2766 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 24, 2002 about questionable conduct by departmental and Justice staff related specifically to his case. Can the minister advise what action he undertook to investigate the validity of Mr. Ross' claims? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I will take that as notice, Mr. Speaker. Manitoba Labour Board Vice-Cha irpersons Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): To the Minister of Labour, Mr. Speaker.

As Bill 27 will add considerable work to the Labour Board, has the minister replaced Vice-Chairperson Jack Chap man, and what is the status of the other two vice chairpersons? Hon. Becky Barrett (Minister of Labour and Immigration): Mr. Speaker, we have two very capable vice-chairpersons of the Manitoba Labour Board. We are looking to put in place another one or maybe two vice-chairpersons to take on the work and continue the very good work that the Manitoba Labour Board has provided to the workers and employers of the province. Mr.

Schuler: Then does the minister not know that Diane Jones resigned effective June 14 and Joy Cooper will resign effective September 1? Has the minister bungled another issue? What is happening at the Manitoba Labour Board? Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, the two vice-chairs of the Labour Board that the member is referring to will continue their connection with the Labour Board. They are going to now have their posi tions paid on a per diem basis. If the member would have gotten his information correct, he would have known that.

They will continue to provide the support and the good service that they have for a number of years to the Labour Board. Mr. Schuler: Is the minister aware that the two vice-chairs will now no longer be full-time posi tions and that as per diem basis they are not committed to be there? Mr. Speaker, I ask the Minister of Labour: How is she going to ensure that there is speedy dealing with issues that go before the Labour Board on an urgent basis when the two vice chairs are on a per diem and now will be meeting with the Labour Board as it suits them?

Will she make sure that the Labour Board functions appropriately? Ms. Barrett: I will guarantee the Manitoba Labour Board will continue to do its work in the excellent manner it has done for the last number of years. Workers Compensation Investments- True North Project Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, it has been reported in the papers, along with the $7.5-million standby line of credit that has been issued by the Workers Compensation Board, the Workers Compensation Board has agreed to acquire two million limited partnership units.

Is the minister aware that the Workers Com pensation Board is acquiring limited partnership units, and would she advise the people of Mani toba accordingly? Hon. Becky Barrett (Minister cha rged with the administration of The Workers Compen sation Act): Mr. Speaker, at the fear of sounding like a broken record, I would urge the members opposite to take advantage of the information that was given to the Leader of the Official Opposition (Mr. Murray). I have the full understanding of the fact that the investment committee is an arm's-length body from the Government-the Workers Com pensation Board.

The information I have re ceived is that- Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Russell, on a point of order. Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, 417 of Beauchesne states that answers to questions should be brief and deal with the matter raised. The Member for Fort Whyte asked the minister very directly whether she is aware that

June 24, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2767 the $7.5-million investment in True North is in fact an investment where $2 million was taken out in shares. That was the question. The min ister keeps avoiding that question. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader) : Mr. Speaker, there appears to be a dispute among members opposite as to how to best frame a question. I choose the Member for Russell. Mr. Speaker: Order.

On the point of order raised by the honourable Member for Russell, I have been listening very, very carefully to the questions and to the answers. The questions dealt with money from Workers Compensation. What I heard the minister keep replying was that the offer was made by the chair of the Workers Compensation to hold information for all hon ourable members, so I would have to rule that this is a dispute over the facts. *** Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Labour and Immigration, have you concluded? Ms. Barrett: Mr.

Speaker, I hold the investment committee, the decisions they make and the fact that they control and work with their over $700- million investment portfolio, in the greatest of respect. I, along with most other Manitobans, with the possible exception of the 23 members of the Opposition, also hold the chair of the Workers Compensation Board in the greatest of respect. Mr. Loewen: On a new question. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Fort Whyte, on a new question. Mr. Loewen : Mr. Speaker, this is unbelievable. I would suggest to the minister maybe she should have a briefing with Wally Fox-Decent.

She is not even aware of facts that were reported in the local media over two weeks ago. I would ask the minister if she understands that the $2 million in limited partnership units that have been subscribed to by the Workers Compen sation Board, is she aware they carry the same risks and the same obligations as the limited partnership units that are being sold to the private sector right now? Ms. Barrett: Mr.

Speaker, it is an interesting question coming from someone who does not even recognize the fact that the comments that were made and the figures that were being spoken about in answers by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) were figures that were available in the Budget Address. I also would like to suggest the Member for Fort Whyte- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. * (14:30) Point of Order Mr. Marcel Lau rendeau (Official Opposition House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, Beauchesne 417: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and not provoke debate. The question was very clear. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Mr. Mackintos h: Well, Mr. Speaker, of course, the role of Question Period is to seek infor mation. I am just trying to assist as it is our generous way. We suggested that, instead of having to bring questions in here and put other ones off the agenda, the Opposition can simply look at the Budget papers presented some time ago and can also, of course, go and meet with Mr.

Wally Fox-Decent, a person beyond re proach in terms of all the details, all the back ground information that they seek. Get it right from the source. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, he does have a point of order. Beauchesne Citation 417: Answers to questions should not provoke debate. * * * Mr. Speaker: The honourable member has concluded her answer. Time for Oral Questions has expired.

2768 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 24, 2002 MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Dakota Collegiate Athletic Awards Ms. Linda Asper (Riel): On June 5, 2002, I had the pleasure of attending Dakota Collegiate's athletics awards evening, along with parents, students and staff, to honour young athletes for their achievements. Dominic Buccini, master of ceremonies and physical education staff mem ber, welcomed us all to the celebration. I was delighted to present provincial certifi cates to the Dakota Lancers, winners of the pro vincial 2002 boys AAAA high school basketball championship.

Congratulations to these players and their coach, Dean Favoni, for winning Dakota's first provincial title since 1980. Other awards included most outstanding athletes for 2001-2002: Senior 1 girls, Stacey Corfield, Tahnee Horton, Corinne Kehrer; Senior 1 boys, Cameron Hornby, Konrad Kor kowski; Senior 2 girls, Christina Lamorte; Senior 2 boys, Glenn Galupe; Senior 3 and 4 girls, Jennifer Tone, Maria Peacock; Senior 4 boys, Trevor Shaw, Adam Thordarson. The collegiate's jazz band entertained us during the event under the leadership of M. Stephen and J. Munroe.

The Dakota Collegiate physical education staff deserve to be proud of the young people with whom they work. Congratulations to them for their commitment and many hours of coach ing. The volunteer coaches at Dakota Collegiate also deserve praise for their contribution. Finally, a special thanks to Ron Guarino, school principal, who fosters a positive school environment for the physical education program and the various sports at Dakota Collegiate. Women's Fitness Championship Mrs.

Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): On Saturday, June 22, I had the pleasure of attending the 2002 Canadian Body Building Federation, Canadian Women's Fitness Cham pionships and all-new Women's Physique Challenge Health and Fitness Expo entitled "Celebrate the Power of the Feminine Spirit." Athletes from all across Canada attended the event that was held in Winnipeg this year, the first time the event has ever been held outside Ontario. A record number of athletes, I believe around 55, competed this year in the ever growing sport that has each athlete develop high levels of mental and physical skills.

It was extremely entertaining and inspiring, with ath letes competing in the areas of strength, flexi bility and endurance. Growing popularity of the event is evident by the number of people who attended the event that was expected to be in excess of 700 people. Congratulations to all those who participated in this year's event. You should all be commended for your dedication and commitment to achieving such incredible physical and mental well-being. We hope we have the pleasure of hosting future events for the Canadian Body Building Federation in years to come right here in Manitoba.

Special congratulations go out to two constituents of mine, Kary and Uche Odiatu, who not only organized the event along with several volunteers but were responsible for bringing this incredible event to our province. Their perseverance and dedication to our community is commendable, and I thank them for everything they did to place our city and province on the national map of excellence. They recently published a book entitled Fit for the Love of It, which was launched at McNally Robinson bookstore in February 2001.

I admire both Kary and Uche for their incredible self discipline and devotion to the well-being of people in our community, in Canada and around the world. Congratulations to Kary, to Uche, and to all the contestants in this year's 2002 CBBF Canadian Women's Fitness Championships and all-new Women's Physique Challenge Health and Fitness Expo, "Celebrate the Power of the Feminine Spirit." I wish each and every one of you every success and look forward to seeing you at future events in Manitoba. Learning Through the Arts Program Mr. Jim Rondeau (Assiniboia): Good day, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to bring all members'

June 24, 2002 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2769 attention to a very innovative education program that is being offered in St. James School Division and, in particular, two schools in my constituency, Buchanan School and Voyageur School. The Learning Through the Arts program is a program that is piloted in kindergarten and Grade 3 and is based on trying to take curriculum from language arts, science and math, take it into art and combine it as a total curriculum-based instruction. It combines story telling, puppetry, music, visual arts and dance and links it to the core area subjects.

In particular, we have Buchanan School. In its program, it hooks up specially selected local artists with classroom teachers, who together collaboratively plan three specific units of study using an artistic medium. For example, a dancer from the Winnipeg Contemporary Dancers co-planned and co taught a unit on negative and positive numbers and space with the Grade 3 teacher and students. A puppeteer planned a unit with the kindergarten teachers on math attribu tes, and kindergarten students made puppets using these attributes.

A videographer co-planned and co-taught a unit with the Grade 3 teachers and students, teaching them how to make a video documentary on soils and erosion. A storyteller worked in the kinder garten classes and shared storytelling strategies with teachers, who then used them as a basis for improving the students' oral literacy skills. This program is off to a flying start with lots of wonderful reviews from teachers, students and parents. It is innovation like this that really enhances schools, brings in partnerships and makes learning come alive.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank Cheryl Chaban, Liz Corbett, Jennifer Fraser, Regine Wetzel, Barbara Powell, Cathy Breck man, JoAnne Sommerfeld and the others who made this program possible. 4-H Rally Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Mr. Speaker, excitement buzzed through the town of Manitou on June 7 as over 400 people gathered for the Morden and Pilot Mound District 4-H Rally. Included in those 400 were 244 members and 65 leaders, along with very supportive parents and grandparents. The event was sponsored by the Department of Agriculture and Food.

The day began with a parade led by flag bearers Mamie Gillis of the Pembina Valley 4-H Club and Laurel Neustaedter of Clearwater Beef. As the day progressed, members participated in livestock judging, home ec questionnaires, dress revue, workshops and a fun-filled team event: the amazing 4-H race. The afternoon concluded m the Manitou arena, where I had the privilege of joining Ms. Linda Sprung in presenting awards to deserving recipients. The awards covered a wide variety of categories, but there was one very special award of the evening. Mr.

Bill Windsor, leader of the La Riviere 4-H Beef Club, was honoured with a plaque commemorating his 40 years of out standing leadership with the club. I would like to take this time to commend Mr. Windsor on his 40 years of service. His involvement and undying commitment sets an example to all those in his community . I would also like to congratulate all other award recipi ents for their achievements. It is my hope that they will continue to be involved in such a worthwhile organization and perhaps convince others to become involved as well. Marlene Street Tenants Association Ms. Nancy Allan (St.

Vital): A group of volun teers in my constituency is making a real difference for their community. The Marlene Street Tenants Association was formed in 1998. Located near Lavallee School, Marlene Street houses around 200 children under the age of 16. The association's very small group of volunteers serves people of all ages and from all cultural backgrounds. Among its many services, the assocmtlon has formed a moms-and-tots group for preschool children and their mothers. There the children get to socialize by playing educational games and going on outings.

Mothers get to meet others, as well as benefit from visits from Y ouville Centre nurses. * (14:40)

2770 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 24, 2002 The association maintains a clothing depot, runs kids' crafts groups, holds classes on tradi tional beadworking, as well as barbecues on Mother's Day and Father's Day. It is also a Winnipeg Harvest site. There is a definite de mand for the work the volunteers do. For example, the association recently held a dance where 50 young people showed up. The group has a community- connections computer lab, which is a free government-funded computer lab available to the public for Internet and other useful purposes.

Working with other groups, the Marlene Street Tenants Association hopes to tum the former St. Vital dump along the Seine River into a park with a walking trail, skating rink and a basketball court. There is also a seniors complex in the immediate area whose residents benefit greatly from this group's work. They will be able to make use of the new park area. Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the Marlene Street Tenants Association for taking the initiative to help develop a sense of community in their neighbourhood.

I would like to extend my best wishes to Mindy A venson {phonetic}, vice-president; Wendy Norman, secretary; Julie Harper, treasurer; and Barbie Fox, past president but still very active with the group. These women and the others who help out have shown an exemplary commitment to their community and to those in need. It IS amazing that so few people can do so much. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, is there leave to revert to tabling of reports? Mr. Speaker: Is it the will of the House to revert to tabling of reports? {Agreed] TABLING OF REPORTS Hon.

Diane McGifford (Minister of Advanced Education): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review for the 2002-2003 Departmental Ex penditure Estimates for the Manitoba Depart ment of Education, Training and Youth and Manitoba Advanced Education. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS House Business Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I would like to seek unanimous consent of the House for a standing committee to meet simultaneously with the House on the morning of Thursday, July 4, at 10 a.m. , and to waive a quorum count. Mr.

Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House for a standing committee to meet simul taneously with the House on the morning of Thursday, July 4, at 10 a.m., and that there be no quorum count for that morning? Is it agreed? {Agreed] Mr. Mackintosh : Mr. Speaker, I would like to announce that the Standing Committee on Privi leges and Elections will meet on Thursday, July 4, at 10 a.m. , to deal with the following matters: the Statutory Report on the April 1995 pro vincial general election. Remember that one, Mr. Speaker?

Also, the 1995, 1996 and 1997 annual reports on The Elections Finances Act; the Statu tory Report on the September 1997 Portage la Prairie by-election. Remember that one? Also, the Statutory Report on the April 1998 Charleswood by-election; the 1998 Annual Report of the Chief Electoral Officer; the 1999 Annual Report of the Chief Electoral Officer, including the September 1999 election; the 2000 Annual Report of the Chief Electoral Officer, including the November 2000 Kirkfield Park and Tuxedo by-elections. Mr.

Speaker: It has been announced that the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections will meet on Thursday, July 4, at 10 a.m., to deal with the following matters : the Statutory Report on the April 1995 provincial general election; the 1995, 1996 and 1997 annual reports on The Elections Finances Act; the Statutory Report on the September 1997 Portage Ia Prairie by election; the Statutory Report on the April 1998 Charleswood by-election; the 1998 Annual Report of the Chief Electo ral Officer; the 1999 Annual Report of the Chief Electoral Officer, including the September 1999 provincial general election; the 2000 Annual Report of the Chief

June 24, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2771 Electoral Officer, including the November 2000 Kirkfield Park and Tuxedo by-elections. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, I am seeking the unanimous consent of the House to vary the Estimates sequence in order to set aside the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture and Food for June 25, 26 and 27 only, and to consider in the place of the Department of Agriculture, the Estimates of the Department of Education, Training and Youth. Mr.

Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to vary the Estimate s sequence in order to set aside the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture and Food for June 25, 26 and 27 only, and to consider in the place of the Depart ment of Agriculture the Estimates of the Depart ment of Education, Training and Youth? Is there unanimous consent? {Agreed] Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, I also would like to announce that the Standing Committee on Law Amendments will meet on Wednesday, June 26, at 6: 30 p.m. This is in addition to the meeting that was announced for June 25 for Bill 14. Mr.

Speaker: It has been announced that the Standing Committee on Law Amendments will meet on Wednesday, June 26, 2002, at 6:30 p.m. This is in addition to the meeting that was announced for June 25 for Bill 14. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, the plan is to do bills today. Would you please call second readings of bills in the following order. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Official Opposition House Leader): Just on House business, Mr.

Speaker, now that the House Leader has called the committee for Wednesday night as well, could the House Leader guarantee me that no body will be dropped off the list at the Tuesday night meeting? Mr. Speaker: I have been informed that that is a decision that the committee makes and not the House Leader. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, would you please call second readings of bills in the following order: 13, 25, 26, 28, 31, 37, 33, 34, 39.

That will be followed by debate on second readings Bills 29, 30 and such other bills as we advise the House of later this afternoon. * (14:50) SECOND READINGS Bi11 13- The Medical Laboratory Technologists Act Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Ms. Friesen), that Bill 13, The Medical Laboratory Technologists Act;

Loi sur les technologistes de laboratoire medical, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Chomiak: This Bill 13 will enact The Medical Laboratory Technologists Act. Current ly, there is no legislation in Manitoba governing the practice of medical laboratory technologists. There is such legislation in Alberta, Saskatche wan, Ontario, Quebec and New Brunswick. It has also been recognized in British Columbia by the Health Professions Council.

There are approximately 1200 technologists employed in Manitoba in hospitals, public and private laboratories, Canadian Blood Services and in research. The act will require that a person who wishes to practise as a medical labo ratory technologist using that title be registered with the College of Medical Laboratory Tech nologists of Manitoba to meet qualifications set out in the act and the accompanying regulations.

In keeping with other health care professions' regulatory legislation such as Bill 26, The Occupational Therapists Act, and Bill 28, The Registered Dieticians Act, this legis lation will require a minimum of one-third public participation on the governing council and on the complaints and inquiry committ ees. It will require that the council and committee meetings be open to the public, except in defined circumstances as is per the other legislation of similar updated nature in the occupational and the professional categories which ensure that the college conducts its affairs in accordance with

2772 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 24, 2002 the current principles of law that apply to the administrative bodies. It will state the duty of the college to carry out its regulatory responsibilities in the interest of the public, and it will outline that obviously clearly in the act. It will require that meetings of the council and committees be open to the public except in specified circum stances, Mr. Speaker.

These measures are to ensure public accountability are consistent with the recom mendations made by the Manitoba Law Reform Commission in its 1994 report on regulating professions and occupations in Manitoba, Mr. Speaker. The bill will provide the college with the authority to monitor the continuing competence of medical laboratory technologists. They will create complaints and discipline processes to ensure fairness for the complainant and the med ical laboratory technologist who may be the subject of a complaint.

These processes will comply with current legal requirements for ad ministrative bodies, and will provide consistency with other health care professions' legislation. Bill 13 will require that the College of Medical Laboratory Technologists of Manitoba provide the minister with an annual report of its activities, including information on the number of occupational therapists registered; the number of complaints received, and the nature and disposition of the complaints; the composition of the governing council; and committees and financial information. As I indicated, Mr.

Speaker, at the com mencement of my remarks, this will establish, for the first time in Manitoba, a college of medical laboratory technologists. This college is similar to the professional organization of other professionals and groups in the province of Manitoba, and I think, significantly, is simila r to legislation dealing with medical laboratory tech nologists that is present in other jurisdictions. It deals specifically with the practice of medical laboratory technology and deals with use of title.

The definition of medical laboratory tech nologist is a very specified term which relates to the definition per the act and dealing with the definition outlined in the act as someone who is registered as a medical laboratory technologist under the act.

Most of the other processes dealing with appeals, registration of students, certification of registration, cancellation of registration, com plaints, the structuring of the complaints com mittee and the referrals, the decision of the complaints committee and its related matters, the issue of censure, the issue of voluntary surrender of registration, appeals by a complainant, sus pension of registration pending decision, inquiry committees, hearings that are conducted under this particular act, decisions of panels under this particular act, appeals to the Court of Appeal, regulation by-law, code of ethics, are contained within the provisions of this act.

Of course, Mr. Speaker, there are significant regulations that will be required to be drafted per this particular process and per this particular professional body. We have seen in the past several years a number of professional organizations and bodies that have had their acts either implemented or updated.

The process of updating and, in fact, the process of providing legislation for this particular body, which is new legislation, is one that was recommended many years ago, and which is well greeted, obviously, by people in the profession, and is looked upon as an ability to provide for enhanced public accountability and, more importantly, safety of the public, as the practice of this profession continues to expand throughout the system. We will continue to work with all organ izations and groups, as we have throughout our tenure, Mr.

Speaker, to provide for protection of the public and in the final analysis, the foremost fundamental issue, which is providing the most appropriate services and the best services to provide for the health care, the optimum and best form of health care, for all of our citizens, which, I hope and believe, is the goal of all members of this Chamber, Mr. Speaker. I am very pleased to have the opportunity to introduce at second reading this particular bill. I look forward to discussion and advice that might be offered during the course of debate on this matter, and I look forward to the committee

June 24, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2773 hearings that will ensue in this regard, Mr. Speaker, dealing with this particular act as it relates to medical laboratory technologists. Having outlined the general intent of this legislation and outlined some of the basic prin ciples contained within this legislation and having discussed some of these related issues, Mr.

Speaker, I look forward to the discussio n of this matter and the speedy passage in this Chamber of this legislation, which will be, I believe, heartily welcomed by the more than 1200 technologists employed in Manitoba in this regard, plus their employers and others who work with them and others in the health care field and profession. So I look forward to the passage of this particular bill and the ultimate proclamation of this act that has been looked forward to and waited for by the individuals involved in this profession, as well as individuals who receive their excellent service that is provided to them.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Arthur-Virden (Mr. Maguire), that debate be now adjourned. Motion agreed to. * (15 :00) Bill 25- The Hearing Aid Amendment Act Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin), that Bill 25, The Hearing Aid Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les appareils auditifs, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, I look forward to discussion and comments from all members of this House with respect to The Hearing Aid Amendment Act. The Hearing Aid Act was enacted in 1971. The Hearing Aid Board was established under the act to regulate hearing aid dealers. The board, Mr. Speaker, is composed of five mem bers and is responsible for both professional practice and consumer issues.

Under that legis lation, anyone wishing to dispense hearing aids must obtain licensure through the board. The amendment before us, Mr. Speaker, with respect to Bill 25, is not, as in the previous bill, the enactment of an entirely new legislative or regulatory authority body. Rather, it is an amendment that will amend The Hearing Aid Act to increase the number of ministerial ap pointments to the Hearing Aid Board from two to four. The increase in board membership will help the board conduct its work in a more timely and efficient manner, Mr. Speaker.

It will allow for the appointment of repre sentatives from the Manitoba Hearing Society of Instrument Practitioners, which represents the interests of non-audiologist hearing aid dis pensers. This group is not currently represented on the board. This will, theref ore, allow for a broader representation of an organization that is involved in this field but does not have the opportunity, at present, to be represented on the board, which is the Manitoba Hearing Society of Instrument Practitioners. The bill also includes minor amendments to modernize the language in the act, Mr. Speaker.

So, dealing with this issue in general, it is simply an amendment that will permit for a slightly larger board, Mr. Speaker, that will permit the number of board members to go to four. This will permit for broader representation, and ensure that all groups and organizations who have the opportunity to be involved in this very important field have occasion to be represented on this particular board. So, Mr. Speaker, I look forward to speedy passage in this Chamber and the opportunity to debate this matter in . committe e.

I implore and call upon members of this Chamber to review this legislation and to provide us with any advice or discussion in this regard which will allow us to pass this bill in the interests of all of those who require hearing aids as well as those who provide and supply for hearing aids.

2774 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 24, 2002 So I ask members of this House to readily pass this particular bill. Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): In regard to The Hearing Aid Amendment Act, Bill 25, there appears to be reasonable changes proposed in this particular act, and having reviewed it, we are prepared- Mr. Speaker: Are you up on a point of order? An Honourable Member: She is speaking to the bill. Mr. Speaker: Oh, you are speaking to the bill? Very good. Mrs. Driedger: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Having reviewed this particular bill, we are prepared to move that this bill move forward to committee.

Mr. Harry Enos (Lakeside): Just a few brief comments on this bill. I do so because my wife as of late has increasingly complained about my loss of hearing, and she will want to know that I enthusiastically support this bill and want to see its speedy passage through committee. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? Some Honourable Members: Question. Mr. Speaker: The question before the House is second reading, Bill 25, The Hearing Aid Amendment Act. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed} Bi11 26-The Occupational Therapists Act Hon.

Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Ms. Friesen), that Bill 26, The Occupational Therapists Act;

Loi sur les ergotherapeutes, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, The Occupational Therapists Act was enacted in 1982. The prac tice of occupational therapy has changed in the 20 years since the act was enacted, as had the law and policy with respect to administrative tribunals. The proposed bill will reflect the expanded scope of practice of occupational therapy, will allow the public direct access to occupational therapy services, increase public accountability and update the disciplinary procedures.

Bill 26 will repeal and replace The Occu pational Therapists Act and update it. It will increase public participation on the governing council and on the complaints and inquiry com mittees. It will require the council and com mittee meetings be opened to the public except in defined circumstances. It will change the name of the regulatory body from the Association of Occupational Therapists of Manitoba to the College of Occu pational Therapists of Manitoba.

This will make it easier for the public to identify the body responsible for acting in the public interest in regulating the practice of occupational thera pists. It will allow Manitobans direct access to occupational therapists when required, and occupational therapists will continue to work collaboratively and co-operatively with other health care providers, including physicians. Of course, we will ensure that the college conducts its affairs in accordance with current principles of law that applies to administrative bodies.

It will outline the duty of the college to carry out its regulatory responsibilities in the interests of the public clearly in the act. Like other forms of updated regulatory administrative and professional legislation, it will increase public participation in the regulatory process by requiring that public representation on the council of the college and all committees be increased to at least one-third. Meetings of the council and committees will be open to the public except on specified circumstances.

These measures to ensure public account ability are consistent with the recommendations made by the Manitoba Law Reform Commission in its 1994 report on regulating professions and occupations in Manitoba. * (15 : 10) It will strengthen the ability of the college to monitor the continuing competence of occu pational therapists. It will update the complaints and discipline processes to ensure fairness for

June 24, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2775 the complainant and the occupational therapists who may be the subject of a complaint. These processes will comply with current legal require ments for administrative bodies and will provide consistency with other health professional legis lation such as The Physiotherapists Act. It also goes hand in hand, I might add, with The Physiotherapists Act, which we had occasion in this Chamber to pass.

There is a balance in this insofar as this act, The Occupational Therapists Act, will be similar to another act that we passed, that is, The Physiotherapists Act, and that only makes sense. This amendment will require that the Col lege of Occupational Therapists of Manitoba provide the minister with an annual report of its activities, including information on the number of occupational therapists registered, the number of complaints received and the nature and dis position of the complaints, the composition of the governing council and committees and finan cial inforn1ation. Mr.

Speaker, I note the occupational thera pist is a person as per the definition

section who is registered as an occupational therapist under this act. There may be those who in this Chamber are not aware of some of the specifics of what in fact is an occupational therapist, but I should advise that it is the application of the therapist's knowledge and skill in judgment to promote health and optimal occupational per formance, prevent disability and assess and resolve occupational performance issues. Mr.

Speaker, we have recently had the occasion to expand the enrolment in both the faculty of physiotherapy and the faculty of occupational therapy in recognition of the re quirements and needs of a population that demographically requires more of these services. I say demographically because many of the illnesses and diseases that afflict, and partic ularly afflict, those as they grow older, can be helped by the application of physio or occu pational therapy. It is a profession and a group of individuals who provide outstanding service to our com munity and to those that are in need.

They are key components and another component of the health care team in this province and in other jurisdictions. The act establishes the College of Occupational Therapists, determines the regis tration with the usual procedures, including application for registration, the appeal provisions as they apply, the certificates of registration, the cancellation of registration, and they look at continuing competence in accordance with regu lations as passed. It deals with complaints and investigation pursuant to those complaints. Mr.

Speaker, it has provisions for the decisions of the investigation committee, cen sure, voluntary surrender of registration, appeal by complainants, suspension of registration, in quiry committees, hearings, and related matters as they apply to the professional body, including decisions of panels and appeals to the Court of Appeal, and, of course, the regulations, by-laws, and code of ethics as they relate to the provision. The act outlines the amendments to this and the usual administrative and related matters as relates to the provision of occupational therapy. Mr.

Speaker, the bill replaces the existing act, as I indicated. It continues the Association of Occupational Therapists as the College of Occupational Therapists. It establishes a gov erning council with public representatives, requires the registration of occupational thera pists, creates processes for handling complaints and discipline, and, I might add, significantly, and I think with relation to this bill, does not carry forward the previous requirement for occupational therapists to consult with physi cians in every case.

This is in keeping with the team approach and the multif aceted approach to health care. This has been done in conjunction with the other professional bodies, most notably the College of Physicians and Surgeons, indeed a recognition by the college and other bodies that this is a useful step and a more efficient and appropriate continued use of resources in this area. So I look forward to the debate that will ensue in this Chamber and the review of this matter when it appears before the committee. I look forward to speedy passage of this legislation by all members.

I hope and anticipate that this act will be passed, proclaimed, and enable us to develop the ensuing regulations to modernize, update and provide for improved

2776 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 24, 2002 care, continued good care of all Manitobans as related to this matter. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Morris (Mr. Pitura), that we adjourn debate. Motion agreed to. Bill 28-- The Registered Dietitians Act Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Labour (Ms. Barrett), that Bill 28, The Registered Dietitians Act;

Loi sur les dietetistes, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, The Registered Dietitians Act was enacted in 1981. Many changes have occurred in our system since that time, including changes in practice setting, evolving roles for dietitians, and the introduction of new technology. This changing practice environment necessitates the need for updating the legislation governing the practice of dietetics. This bill, Bill 28, will repeal and replace The Registered Dietitia ns Act.

It will provide for, firstly, increased public accountability. The name of the regulatory body will be changed from the Manitoba Association of Registered Dietitians to the College of Registered Dietitians of Manitoba.

The change in name will make it easier for the public to identify the regulatory body for dietitians and will emphasize the overriding duty of the college to act in the public interest. * (15: 20) The duty of the college to carry out its regulatory responsibilities in the interest of the public will be set out clearly in the act, as has been the case in previous biils that we have brought before this Chamber or amendments to biiis that have been brought before this Chamber, as it relates to regulatory acts or professional acts or acts of this kind. Mr.

Speaker, the public participation in the regu latory process will be increased by requiring a minimum of one-third public representation on the council of the college and in all committees. It will also require the meetings of the board and committees be open to the public except in specified circumstances, and this is in keeping with the previous and similar legislation. These measures to ensure public account ability are consistent with the recommendation by the Manitoba Law Reform Commission in the 1994 Report on Regulating Professions and Occupations in Manitoba.

The ability of the college to monitor the continued competence of its members will be increased. Mr. Speaker, the College of Registered Dietitians of Manitoba will be required to provide the minister with an annual report of its activities, including information on the number of dietitians registered, the number of complaints received, the nature and disposition of the complaints, the composition of the governing council, committees and financial information. It will also provide for updated scope of practice. As I indicated, Mr.

Speaker, the description of the practice of dietetics will reflect the varied roles the dietitians now assume beyond the traditional clinical setting. As is the case, Mr. Speaker, in other forms of legislation, it will provide for new disci plinary procedures. The complaint and discipline process will be updated to ensure fairness for the complainant and the registered dietitian who may be the subject of the complaint.

These processes will comply with current requirements for administrative bodies and will provide con sistency with other health care professional legislation such as The Physiotherapists Act that I mentioned in my previous comments and The Occupational Therapists Act that I recently, in fact moments ago, had occasion to bring before this Chamber for review on second reading and reference to the committee of this House. This will, similarly to those pieces of legislation, provide for consistency. Mr.

Speaker, I suspect or perhaps it is not the case that many individuals are not aware of the very significant impact and participation dietitians have in our health care system. In fact, from my perspective, it is only enhanced, and

June 24, 2002 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2777 has become greater as we learn more-as we develop our health care system, and as we continue to evolve the health care system.

I do not think one should underscore the significance that this profession and this particular field play in the health and well-being of all Manitobans, not just those who are in our institutions-be it the acute care setting through the tertiary or the committee nature, or in personal care or long term care facilities-but indeed in the community and indeed in the provision of preventative measures as they relate to the health care and well-being of all Manitobans. Mr.

Speaker, this Bill 28, The Registered Dietitians Act, will have within it the outline of the practice of dietetics, which in definition, I think it is worth repeating, means the translation and application of scientific knowledge of foods and human nutrition through: assessment, de sign, implementation and evaluation of nutri tional interventions; integration of food and nutrition principles and the management of food service systems; and dissemination of inf orma tion to attain, maintain, promote and protect the health of individuals, groups and the community. What a broad range of activities that is, Mr.

Speaker. The act, of course, will establish the college of dieticians of Manitoba, provide for the registration, the application for registration, the appeals, the annual certificate of registration, the cancellation of registration and the continuing competence of individuals involved.

It defines, of course, the complaints process, establishes the complaints committee, decision of complaints committee, censure, volunteer sur render of registration, appeal by complainant, suspension of registration pending decision, in quiry committees, hearings, decisions of panels, appeal to the Court of Appeal, reinstatement and, of course, regulation by-laws and code of ethics. As I indicated in previous references to other acts during the course of this discourse, Mr.

Speaker, this act will be similar to other regulatory, professional and administrative laws that we have implemented or are proposing to implement during the course of this session of the Legislature and will build upon previous acts, previous matters that were previously dealt with during the course of this particular Legislature and, indeed, immediately preceding legislatures that were involved in the updating, the modernization and the revision of profes sional legisla tion, particularly as it relates to the health care field in Manitoba.

As I indicated with the other pieces of legislation that are bef ore this Chamber, I look forward to discussion and discourse of this matter as it winds its way through the legislative process, as it moves into debate and into committee of this House and, ultimately, public hearings, subsequent return to this Chamber for third reading, finally, proclamation and then the ensuing development of regulations that apply to this act that will ensue. So I look forward to continuing discussion of this matter, Mr.

Speaker, and I note, as you and others pay rapt attention to this debate, how significant it will be for all Manitobans. Thank you. Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Cha rleswood): I move, seconded by the Member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns), that debate be now adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bi11 31 -The Medical Amendment (Physician Profiles and Miscellane ous Amendments) Act Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Mackintosh), that Bill 31, The Medical Amendment (Physician Profiles and Miscellaneous Amendments) Act; Loi modifia nt Ia Loi medicate (profils des medecins et modifications diverses ), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. * (15 :30) Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, I rise with a good deal of pleasure, as I have with other acts, to deal with this act in this Chamber, but I have a particular, obviously, association with this particular act, as do members of this House, insofar as the provision and the impetus and the recommendations for provisions in this act came from the Sinclair inquiry, the Thomas com mission that reviewed the implementation of the Sinclair inquiry.

2778 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 24, 2002 This is only a five-page amendment, but these five pages are a significant change in the way and the approach that we have concerning health care and concerning dealing with physi cians and other professionals. This bill will enable the College of Physicians and Surgeons to make regulations regarding the development and publication of physician profiles as discussed in the Thomas report.

The profiles can contain information such as the education of the physician, post-graduate medical education or specialty certification, in formation on any convictions or medical mal practice judgments. It will be the first legislation enabling the development of physician profiles in Canada. There is similar legislation in a number of U.S. states, including Massachusetts, New York and Florida. The bill also contains amendments that will allow the college to deal with matters involving a person who is a former member of the college when the matter is referred to the complaints committee by the registrar.

The current wording only allows the college to deal with matters that are the subject of a formal complaint from outside the college. This will correct the problem identified in previous dealings. It will allow the council to appoint a non-member of the college as an assistant registrar. It will provide all persons carrying out duties under the act with protection from liability for anything that is done in good faith in the performance of the duty.

This is the same level of protection provided to other health care profession regulatory bodies in recent years, such as nursing bodies, midwifery, physiotherapy bodies, as well as Bills 13, 26 and 28, here before this Chamber for debate. It will allow the president of the council of the college to appoint an appeal committee from among the members of the council when there is an appeal filed by a complainant who is not satisfied with the proposed resolution of his or her complaint. Currently the appeal has to be heard by a full committee. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I am aware that on second reading specific line by line issues are not generally permitted. It is generally a discussion of the overall principles. I will at tempt to adhere to those particular issues, although in this particular amendment it is somewhat difficult because of the nature of the amendment. Let me outline some of the issues involved. It was very clear as a result of the Sinclair inquiry that change had to happen, not just in Manitoba, but indeed across, shall I say, the western world, Mr. Speaker, without putting too broad a point on it. Mr.

Speaker, the Sinclair inquiry was a seminal event in health care in Manitoba, the longest inquiry in the history of Canada. It dealt with significant, protracted, and tragic circum stances. It made a series of recommendations. Subsequent to that, when we received the Sinclair inquiry, we reviewed it. We addressed it.

We felt, and I think history will prove it was appropriate that we put in place a panel that will help us wind our way through the recom mendations, not for purposes of shelving, because that has happened so often in so many reports-that is not a partisan comment; it just seems to be a pattern-but rather to ensure that we would put in place the recommendations and what we could put in place, in terms of priorities, faster in terms of need for the community.

Quite clearly, one of the recommendations was for better accountability and better ability of the public to have access to information con cerning the individuals who provide the most intimate, on occasion, and some of the time the most expensive, on occasion, care. Clearly, there was a recommendation and there was a need in the public's mind to have more information concerning physicians. Now, in this area, like so many areas, there are very, very strong-held views. There are extremes on all sides of this issue. There are those who feel that no information ought to be provided or need to be provided.

On the other hand, there are those who believe that all information should be provided. Both views, we believe, could be difficult to implement and may not achieve the appropriate end. What is the appropriate end? The appropriate end is pro viding for adequate and appropriate information to allow the public to make decisions regarding

June 24, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2779 the most important thing in their lives, which is health care; and, secondly, to deal with the issue of adequate protection of our health care pro fessionals and doctors, in this case, so that we are not in the position where Manitoba, for example, is out of step with developments. We know very clearly that we have taken and placed many initiatives in the past few years to change the practice of how medicine occurred in Manitoba the past few decades. We tried to tum around an entire culture. We think we have made some progress.

At the same time, there are steps that had to be taken, and we do not want to be so far out in advance of other jurisdictions that we might hinder the ability of individuals who may or may not want to come here. At the same time, we have to protect the public. That is a balance. We think that this legislation will provide for adequate information as well as not being so intrusive as to make it difficult to practise medicine here. Mr.

Speaker, we have had an imple mentation committee that includes representa tives from the public, representatives from groups and organizations that have advocated for position profiles and, of course, representation from the College of Physicians and Surgeons. This legislation is enabling. It is true that the regulations, as in all cases in legislation, have yet to be adapted.

It is true, but we are continuing to work with our implementation committee. it is true that we will take the advice, and we will continue to take advice from members of this Chamber and from other indi viduals concerning this legislation and how it can best and most appropriately be implemented. Like significant change in other areas of health care, change is not something that is necessarily accepted easily. Change requires a two-way process of discussion, both listening as well as advising. We have attempted to be sensitive in terms of how and what this legislation contains.

We will continue to do that when we deal with the regulations. At the end of the day, it has been recommended that physician profiles be imple mented in Manitoba, and we believe that in conjunction with the appropriate bodies and organizations physician profiles will be imple mented in Manitoba. * (15 :40) One of the issues that came up, Mr. Speaker, when this legislation was introduced is the fact that it is not a be-all and end-all, that it is not an end in itself, and that is, in fact, correct.

This is only part of a large process dealing with not only the recommendations in the Sinclair inquiry but ensuing developments that have occurred in the health care system. Medical error only recently has become something that is talked about, for example, Mr. Speaker, in the health care field, in the health care system. There was a time when medical error was something that was not discussed or even acknowledged.

We found out from Sinclair and the Thomas commission that we had to move to a system of recognizing medical error and learning from medical error because if one does not learn from the mistakes, one continues to repeat them, and if my memory serves me correctly, I believe the Thomas commission rec ommended we get away from the blaming cul ture of medical error. This legislation is only one part of a more comprehensive strategy that deals with an ap proach to health care, including medical error.

I recently had the occasion to attend a conference dealing with medical error where 300 to 400 people in Manitoba participated. The people who wrote the book on medical error presented at the conference. We are very fortunate in that an ex deputy minister of Health, now a member of the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority, is on the Royal College of Physicians and is heading up one of the committees dealing with medical error. We have recently had medical error put on the agenda of the federal-provincial health care ministers. It has become a part of everyday dealing in health care. So I just add tangentially, Mr.

Speaker, when one looks at the initiatives that have been undertaken, that this is only one part of a very comprehensive strategy that deals with Sinclair and Thomas and deals with doctors and other health care professionals.

2780 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June 24, 2002 In fact, Mr. Speaker, we had occasion to submit our first report on the Thomas com mission, as recommended by the Thomas commission, and signifi cant progress has been made in a number of areas that would not have taken place had it not been for Sinclair and Thomas, and this is one of the significant changes that will occur. It is one of the few of all of the changes that we have implemented that actually requires legislation, and this does require legislation by virtue and by nature of what is required. I am somewhat precluded in my comments, Mr.

Speaker, from dealing with some specific issues as it relates to aspects of this legislation insofar as there are some ongoing initiatives that are taking place. Suffice it to say that the other changes included in this piece of legislation that deal with physician profiles and related matters affecting the college are as a result of matters that have been either recommended to us by Sinclair-Thomas and/or by the College of Physicians and Surgeons that permit that body to undertake its af fairs on behalf of all of us in the most appropriate fashion.

I fully expect, by nature of this kind of legislation, this kind of ground-breaking legis lation to hear of comments pro and con, those in favour and those against. I fully expect that on either side of the issue will be a variety of comments. I happen to believe that this is a good balancing of the initiatives. It is structured with the participants who are actually involved in the day-to-day operation of this.

It has their support, and what better way to introduce or to bring about change than to have the participants actively participating in the means and the methodology by which that change is brought about. Let there be no mistake, Mr. Speaker, this is a signifi cant piece of legislation. This is a sig nificant change in our culture and in our environment, not, I daresay, something that has not been expected or has not been developed, but I think, because of the impact of the Sinclair Thomas inquiries, has been propelled into the forefront.

It is incumbent upon us in this Chamber to carry out and implement the recom mendations as quickly as we can and as efficiently as we can, not just to try to undo some of the mistakes of the past, but more importantly, to ensure the mistakes of the past are less likely to be repeated.

I have often stated that once the Sinclair report and the Thomas commission reported to us the issue, if it was not before an issue affecting every Manitoban, did become an issue that affected every Manitoban, not just those tragically impacted, that is, the parents, the siblings, the relatives, the health care pro fessionals and all those involved, but every Manitoban has been profoundly affected by those events. Hopef ully, every Manitoban can be assured that all that can be done will be done realistically to ensure that those circumstances cannot repeat themselves, should not repeat themselves.

It is incumbent upon us as legis lators to put in place mechanisms and legis lation, as in this case we are doing, to ensure that that does not happen. I have heard it stated, Mr. Speaker, that this particular enabling piece of legislation would not have necessarily prevented the events that oc curred in the early 1990s. I might add that that argument I think does not take into account the fact that (

a) this is enabling legislation; (

b) it is still in devel opmental stages as regards the provision of the regulations; and (

c) it is not just-and I make that point again, it is not just this legislation that deals with the issues sur rounding the circumstances of the 12 baby deaths at Children's Hospital, Health Sciences Centre. There are a whole series of initiatives, be it consent forms that are developed and now utilized across the system, reporting of errors, Protection for Persons in Care Act, manuals, patient complaint processes, peer review, team review, et cetera, and a myriad of other pro cesses that have been put in place as a result of those tragic circumstances.

So I think it would be a mistake to reflect on this legislation as the only matter dealing with the results of the Sinclair-Thomas reviews. At the same time, I think it should be recognized that it is a first in Canadian history to put this and these forms into legislation. I know we have been contacted by other jurisdictions, other provinces looking at this. That is not something that is unusual, Mr. Speaker. There has been legislation and other matters introduced in other

June 24, 2002 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2781 provinces that we have contacted other juris dictions to see how they went about doing it so that we could implement similar legislation, see how it worked, to see if it was effective and how we best could put in place that kind of legislation. So we have been contacted, I am advised, by other jurisdictions looking at this.

We have examined the experience in other jurisdictions, I think most notably, if memory serves me correctly, Massachusetts as the model for this kind of legislation. * (15 :50 ) There are those, I think, who would suggest that this is not enough or is not appropriate enough. Again I add, this has never been done before in Manitoba. This has never been done before in Canada. There are those who for their own reasons, of which I will not speculate, have suggested that other forms of information ought to be put into the legislation. Well, we are willing to hear that. We are willing to hear and to see and to develop.

I might add that the experience of other jurisdictions who have put in place this kind of profiling has been that generally the public have referred to this information to find out about the care provider and less attention was paid to other issues. So that is interesting. Nonetheless, it is a first. It is as a result of Sinclair and Thomas. It is breaking new ground.

I have no doubt that there will be valid suggestions that we will hear both in this Chamber and at committee, some of which we may accept, some of which we may not accept; but, because this issue goes so much to the heart of events that occurred in this province over the past decade, events that directly affected every Manitoban, events that had an impact profoundly in this Chamber, and, I daresay, have affected the lives of some Manitobans for the rest of their lives. There are strong views held on this issue. I feel this is an appropriate balance of the various viewpoints.

I look forward to being able to implement and move on, and I look forward to the comments and the advice of all Manitobans in this regard. It is a significa nt amendment. It will have a significant impact on the provision of health care in this province. I look forward to continued discussions in this Chamber. Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I move, seconded by the Member for River East (Mrs. Mitchelson), that debate be now adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bill 37- The Non-Sm okers Health Protection Amendment Act Hon.

Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): I move, seconded by the Minister of Inter governmental Affairs (Ms. Friesen), that Bill 37, The Non-Smokers Health Protection Amend ment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la protection de la sante des non-fumeurs, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, I rise in this Chamber to deal with a significant health-related matter, the amendment to The Non-Smokers Health Protection Act,

an act that has not been significantly amended since it was first brought into this Chamber, I believe, about a decade ago, and which this amendment, in the words of the Physicians for a Smoke-Free Canada, is the most significant thing we can do to prevent smoking from occurring. I am very pleased that the Physicians for a Smoke-Free Canada, the Canadian Cancer Soci ety, the Manitoba Medical Association all ap plaud measures in this regard. It just so happens, Mr. Speaker, that I am reading a book looking at the history of the cigarette industry.

I have to say it is not every day that the Member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns) is on my mind, but, as I went through this book, I thought about some of the comments made by the Member for Lakeside. When the proposals first came to our attention about doing something about pre venting children from smoking, the idea of promotion of smoking products in places where children are in attendance, I had to be convinced because, frankly, common sense suggests, well, what kind of impact would that have?

I, too, remember the days, although it was before my time, when liquor was kept hidden away, and you had to fill out the form and check off the volume, the type. I was advised that was what

2782 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 24, 2002 happened. I am advised of the experience of prohibition, and I am well read in that area. Well, I have read in that area. But it is significant that the majority of advertising funding by the tobacco industry is spent on promotion and point-of -sale products. I do not think the tobacco industry is without intelligence. In fact, they are one of the, if not the most, successful businesses in the entire world.

They are successful for three reasons: first, a low-cost product; second, a product in which 90 percent of individuals who partake are addicted; third, because they have to replace customers and clients. The only way they can do that is expanding the breadth of their reach, which is into the Third World and other developing countries, and they attract youth. There are memos that fly back and forth from tobacco companies talking about how they attract youth, but there is no doubt, there is no doubt, that the bulk of their energy is placed at promotional material to entice individuals to (

a) take up smoking or (

b) to continue smoking. The data is almost conclusive. It is not, Mr. Speaker, simply a question of speculation, but it has been proven factually and otherwise. We have reference to considerable literature, including that done by private industry, that indicates point-of-sale promotions are extremely effective in enticing individuals to take up smoking, and the purpose for individuals to take up smoking is to become addicted to smoking, which then means that one will continue to indulge in the habit. * (16:00) We know the habit results in upwards of 2000 Manitobans' lives each year.

I believe the Surgeon General of the United States said in the eighties that loss of life from smoking is equiv alent to three jumbo jets crashing every single day. The health costs are horrendous, horrific. Anything that we as public legislators can do to prevent and decrease the number of smokers is in our best interests. The last study that came out, Mr. Speaker, showed that Manitoba youth had one of the higher rates of smoking. I think it was 28 percent. So what we have decided to do, Mr.

Speaker, in this jurisdiction is everything that we could that would canvass the field and would try to prevent youth from smoking. So we have launched initiatives in the schools to prevent youths from smoking. We have provided sup ports to municipalities that have non-smoking bans to enforce those bans. This is an interesting point. We decided that we would do something about advertising because of the strength of the arguments about adver tising.

If we could have brought about advertising without dealing with the promotional issues, we probably would have prevented ourselves some headaches, but quite clearly the evidence shows that no matter what exception you make to advertising, that exception will open up an opportunity for big tobacco to promote their product in another fashion. So moving promotions and moving material outside of the sight of children makes perfect sense. I think most Manitobans, Mr. Speaker, would be probably shocked to find out that tobacco companies pay retailers to display their products prominently.

Indeed, tobacco interests buy up the bulk, the best, the most efficient and marketable space on any shelf. Walk into a convenience store, take a look. I have done it myself dozens of times when we pondered this legislation. There are even tobacco products beside candy products. Well, members would say, why do you not just ban it on the counter. We thought about that.

We thought about banning the counter, keep it away from candy, keep it three feet away from candy, find some way of doing that, but every exception makes the legislation more complex, more difficult to enforce, and, in the end, we know that a way will be found around it to promote tobacco products. So what are we losing? Yes, retailers will lose income from tobacco companies to promote their products. It will amount, in some cases, to thousands of dollars a year.

We have no desire to hurt small business or small retailers or any retailers, for that matter, no desire to, but the weighing of the benefits versus the impact of smoking means we have no choice. I suspect that this kind of legislation will soon be emulated, be copied in other jurisdictions. We know, for example, that Scotland, New Zealand, Saskatch ewan and other jurisdictions are looking at it, some American jurisdictions. It will provide us with an opportunity to show some leadership,

June 24, 2002 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA 2783 and, more importantly, it will provide us with an opportunity to prevent youth from taking up smoking. There are other tangential benefits as well. It is no coincidence, Mr. Speaker, that tobacco and tobacco products are placed at the counter and placed in such a position so that individuals, for example, on impulse buying are more inclined to buy it, and that would affect individuals who are trying to quit, et cetera. That is a tangential factor, but that is not the main factor.

The main factor is to try to show youth that smoking is not cool, smoking is in fact, frankly, not a very smart thing to do, not a very smart thing to take up. Anything we can do to prevent that I think is incumbent upon us as legislators and leaders to do. To return to the point of small business, we met with the retailers, we looked at different options. I met with them again last week before introducing this legislation. They made sug gestions. The main suggestion they made was give us time. This bill will give time. It will not come into effect until January 1, '04. So we met their main condition.

They also asked us to look at other options. We looked at other options. We are looking at other options. They said, let us be a part of it. So we set up an implementation committee that includes small retailers. I do not expect those that are opposed to roll over. I anticipate there will be a fair amount of opposition, but we think that this is the right thing to do for the youth of Manitoba. There is conclusive evidence that tobacco affects tens of thousands of Canadians' lives every single year. I have heard parallels made to the fact that we do not do this with liquor, we do not do this with other products.

But, you know, I do not know of another legal product that is as addictive, and in fact the whole purpose of tobacco is to be addicted- An Honourable Member: Other than politics? Mr. Chomiak: That just is in the bloodstream, Mr. Speaker, as tobacco. The whole purpose is to get you addicted. It is just too dangerous a practice, has too much impact on health care to treat it like any other consumer product. People will be allowed to sell. It is only a question of their not being allowed to promote their product, tobacco product for children. It is an idea of denormalizing.

Now, I know there has been question about what denor malizing is. It is part of a process that was agreed upon by all Health ministers, regardless of political stripe, across this country. We will do what we can to denormalize the use of tobacco. This bill will help achieve those goals. There are other amendments in this legis lation that allow for the defense of a charge of supplying tobacco, tobacco-related products. Documentation is provided. It will establish, as I indicated earlier, an advisory committee to pro vide advice and recommendations on signage and other related products.

The significant aspects of this bill deal with the issue of promotion and display of tobacco and tobacco-related products. We have made exceptions for businesses whose sole function or primary function is related only to tobacco products. The key factor, Mr. Speaker, is to demonstrate that if adults smoke that is their right. But anything we can do to prevent kids from beginning to smoke or continuing to smoke is something that we as legislators and leaders ought and must do in this jurisdiction.

This will ensure that things like power walls, things like placing promotional material at eye level for kids, things like glamourizing particular tobacco products in advertising and displays do not happen in Manitoba. Issues have been raised about the issue of saf ety. We will do what we can in terms of safety. There are a variety of views upon that.

We think the fact that we are permitting this legislation to not take effect for a long period of time is significant and will allow individuals the appropriate time to deal with this issue and affect the fashion, and as well as allow for transition for retailers who may not be in a position to receive the significant funding that is received by retailers and others for this kind of product. * (16: 10) I was quite impressed that, when we an nounced this legislation, it was endorsed by, as I

2784 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 24, 2002 said earlier, Manitoba Medical Association, Canadian Cancer Society and the Manitoba Lung Association. The representative of the Canadian Cancer Society said that this legis lation will save lives. Those were their words, not our words. I was struck by that. I do not know how often we have appeared in this Chamber and have been told that legislation will save lives. To me, that is a significant issue.

The saving of lives, the improvement of health, is something that I as Health Minister and all of us as legislators ought to be looking at and ought to be of the highest priority for all of us. I am very pleased that we have the opportunity to debate this legislation. I am quite aware that the

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-3-53
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 3rd hansardpdf 53.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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