Manitoba Hansard — 5 May 1998 (Sitting 42, 36th Legislature, 4th Session)

36-4-42

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

�- Fourth Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVIII No. 42-1:30 p.m., Tuesday, MayS, 1998

Member ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATH LIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFAN SON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary. Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Pembina Lakeside Interlake Brandon East Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescent wood Broadway Kirktield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River Charleswood Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C.

P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

2565 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, May 5, 1998 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mining Reserve Fund Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of A. Crocker, M. �hur�h, K. Kawerski and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Newman) to consider immediately restoring the $6 million taken from the Mining Reserve Fund.

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mining Reserve Fund Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen), and it complies with the rules and practices of the House (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

WHEREAS mining is a billion dollar industry in Manitoba directly employing more than 4,300 people pumping more than $240 million in wages alone into the Manitoba economy; and

WHEREAS part of the mining taxes on operating mines goes into the Mining Reserve Fund; and

WHEREAS the Mining Reserve Fund was set up for the welfare and employment of persons residing in a mining community which may be adversely affected by the total or partial suspension or the closing down of mining operations attributable to the depletion of ore deposits; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has withdrawn $6 million from the Mining Reserve Fund and put this money into general revenue; and

WHEREAS many mining communities having contributed millions of dollars to the provincial economy for many years are now nearing the end of their known ore resources. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Energy and Mines to consider immediately restoring the $6 million taken from the Mining Reserve Fund. Winnipeg Hospitals Food Services-Privatization Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale), and it complies with the rules and practices of the House.

Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

THAT the Urban Shared Services Corporation (USSC) has announced plans to privatize laundry, food services and purchasing for the Winnipeg hospitals; and THAT it is estimated that more than I, 000 health care jobs will be lost over the next year as a result, with many more privatized in the next two or three years; and THAT under the terms of the contract, Ontario businesses will profit at the expense of Manitoba's health care system; and THAT after construction of a food assembly warehouse in Winnipeg, chilled, prepared food will be shipped in

2566 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May 5, 19 98 from Ontario, then assembled and heated before being shipped to the hospitals; and THAT people who are in the hospital require nutritious and appetizing food; and THAT the announced savings as a result of the contract have been disputed, and one study by Wintemute Randle Kilimnik indicated that, ·:A considerable number of studies have compared costs of service delivery in health care between self-operation (public sector) and privatization. Invariably, privatization is more expensive.

"; and THAT no one in Manitoba seems to benefit from this contract, especially patients. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Minister of Health to put an end to the centralization and privatization of Winnipeg hospital food services. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Chairperson): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Emerson (Mr.

Penner), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. * (1 335) INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 46-- The Correctional Services Act Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I move, seconded by the Minister of Labour (Mr. Gilleshammer), that leave be given to introduce Bill 46, The Correctional Services Act (Loi sur les services correctionnels), and that the same be now received and read a first time. The Lieutenant Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House, and I would table the Lieutenant Governor's message. Motion agreed to.

Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon sixteen Grades 3 to 6 students from Royal School under the direction of Mrs. Elaine Paulson. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable First Minister (Mr. Filmon). We also have twelve Grade 9 students from Calvin Christian School under the direction of Mr. John Buikema. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson).

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Hepatitis C Compensation Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, we have been hearing all last week and again yesterday from Tory ministers, including the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik), and from Tory backbenchers that the extension of compensation for victims of hepatitis C would bankrupt our health care system and plunge the entire country into a state of chaos.

Tories voted against our motion last December; they voted against our motion calling for a free vote and are currently filibustering our second motion, our third motion I should say. Madam Speaker, in light of the Premier's (Mr. Filmon) apparent change of heart yesterday-and I ask that we both put partisanship aside-! want to ask him what his position is. Will his Minister of Health return

May 5, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2567 to the bargaining table assigned with the task of negotiating the extension of hepatitis C to include all victims who acquired this illness through contaminated blood or contaminated blood products? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I just cannot believe the

preamble to the question from the member for Osborne. She came to the committee last week and moved a resolution that required the federal government to pay the entire share of the compensation package. Then we asked her to clarify what the New Democratic Party's position was. She refused to answer. Then, after being challenged again, she said, well, that really is not our position; maybe the province should pay something.

So, Madam Speaker, now she comes in here while this matter is being debated in the committee where many members of this Legislature are participating in a very thorough discussion on hepatitis C, one that it is our responsibility as legislators to have, and the member now wants to cut off that debate. That is totally a misrepresentation of what is happening in committee, and we on this side would like to know what the New Democrats really think. Should the feds pay? Should the provinces pay? They put two positions on the record last week. Ms.

McGifford: Madam Speaker, in response to the question of extending compensation, yesterday the Premier said I am not ruling it out. The Premier says one thing in the hallway, one thing here, one thing one day, one thing the next day. We are trying to find out the position of this government in relationship to compensation, to extending the package for compensation for hepatitis C. Would somebody, please, the Premier- Madam Speaker: Order, please. · Point of Order Hon. David Newman (Deputy Government House Leader): Point of order, Madam Speaker.

We have had a second question, a follow-up question, and we have had a very extended

preamble that has been going on for, as the House leader for the official opposition said in reference to the Minister of Education (Mrs. Mcintosh) yesterday, about three minutes while you were standing. An exaggeration, I agree, but probably 30 seconds of extended

preamble. I would appreciate it if you would bring the member to order. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson, on the same point of order. Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Point of order, Madam Speaker. There is usually more leeway in terms of lead questions, and certainly that was extended to the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) with his rather extensive nonanswer which tended into debate. He was continuing debate from yesterday. Madam Speaker, I would suggest that we follow the normal process.

I think there is some greater flexibility in lead-off questions, and certainly the member for Osborne is our lead-off questioner today on this very important issue. We ask that courtesy be extended to her. Madam Speaker: Order, please. First, for clarification for all members of the House, the latitude is allowed only to the Leaders, not to anyone else taking the first question. That has been Manitoba practice and tradition in terms of allowing latitude relative to the time lines and other guidelines. On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Riel (Mr.

Newman), the government deputy House leader indeed did have a point of order. The honourable member was recognized for a supplementary question to which no

preamble is required. * * * * (1 340) Ms. McGifford: Madam Speaker, I want to ask the Premier, in view of the remarks he made outside the House yesterday, if he would please tell us if his position with regard to extending compensation has modified. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, the position which I put forward yesterday and which has been widely quoted, I believe in the media, is the position that we continue to take.

2568 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 5, 19 98 I have had the opportunity even in the last 24 hours to speak to several First Ministers about the issue, and I have urged that the only way to resolve the many outstanding and confusing aspects of this issue is to have further meetings of federal and provincial ministers of Health. That, I believe, is something that will be taking place. It is my understanding that those arrangements and discussions are currently underway, and I think that it does not benefit anybody to pursue it beyond that point.

If our ob jective is to have all of the ministers of Health in Canada get together and arrive at a consensus solution, then that is what we should be working toward. We should not be attempting to find some way of putting somebody off balance or trying to embarrass somebody here in this Legislature. What we ought to be doing is working towards that conclusion because, as the member's Leader confirmed yesterday, none of us want to have a two-tiered solution to this where each province gives an offer depending on its own fiscal capacity.

That would be a very, very wrong situation to incur here in this country, and I think it would lead towards a very destructive force towards medicare in Canada. I do not think that any of us should want that, so what we will do is continue to work with our colleagues across Canada to get everybody to the table to try and find a consensus solution to the matter. Ms. McGifford: Madam Speaker, I thank the Premier for his answer. Compensation-Consu ltations Ms.

Diane McGiff ord (Osborne): I would like to ask the Premier-and it appears that he has agreed to renegotiate-if the Premier and his minister will undertake to ensure that representatives from all affected consumer groups have representation at the table and that, as well, these groups are consulted here in Manitoba. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): This is a very complex issue.

Even in some of my discussions with colleagues across the country yesterday, matters were brought forward such as the fact that some people who have been infected with or received tainted blood with hepatitis C have not yet even been identified because there are no symptoms or no consequences to them in a health circumstance. Others are people who may be not in need of any particular financial support. There is one very prominent Canadian who has been identified who would be in very, very strong financial circumstances, would not need that.

It may well be that the kinds of discussions that have to take place have to do with dealing with people who have been traumatically affected in terms of their health circumstance and who also are in very difficult financial circumstances.

It may well be that the solution that was arrived at for the package that was made available for the '86 to '90 victims, because of the fact that in that case there was evidence of negligence or an argument to be made for negligence because of the fact that Canada did not utilize the test that was available and in use in the United States, United Kingdom and elsewhere, there are different circumstances. It is not something that I think we can negotiate here or we can decide here.

I think it is the expert advice that is required, and I think it is all of the circumstances and advice that people are listening to right now that will hopefully result in an agreement or at least a consensus among the provinces, and that is what we have to hope for. Hepatitis C Compensation Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, I want to ask some questions to the Premier, in terms of hepatitis C, and would note that there certainly seems to be a significant shift from last week. I do not just think here but I think across the country.

People are asking governments, both provincial and federal, to do the right thing. I think many people in this province feel the right thing to do is to extend compensation to victims who are affected by blood that they received prior to 19 86. I appreciate that the minister said yesterday he is not ruling out that extension, and I appreciate the fact that he is, in essence, saying that they will be there at any federal-provincial conference that may be called to deal with this matter.

I think rather than ask the Premier to negotiate on the floor of the Legislature, all I am asking on behalf of the victims and all our caucus is asking for is: will this minister go to any such meeting or send his Health minister, directing that Health minister to come up with

May 5, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2569 a solution that does extend the coverage to victims who received the blood prior to 19 86? * (13 45) Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I have indicated that we will be represented at these ongoing meetings and discussions. We will ensure that we go there with a sense of fairness and a commitment to all of the things that are important to us, preserving the medicare system in Canada, ensuring that people are treated fairly in all of those matters.

We will go there with an open mind, and that is I think the best commitment I can make to this Legislature and to the people of Manitoba. Mr. Ashton: As a follow-up, Madam Speaker: will the Health minister of the Province of Manitoba, at that meeting, be going in there with a position that appears to have been taken in other provinces, that they should not only discuss this matter, but they should extend the coverage to victims who received the blood prior to 19 86? Is that going to be the position of the government at that meeting? Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I repeat my previous answer. Mr.

Ashton: Madam Speaker, we do not know what position the government will take. I will ask the First Minister again, because I think it is very important in this House to take that position, to indicate to victims. I want to know: what can we say to victims in this province of blood that was received prior to 19 86? Is the province going to be going to federal-provincial meetings on this matter and taking a position similar to other provinces, such as Ontario, which is going to be pushing for the extension of the coverage? Will the Premier take that position at that meeting? Mr.

Filmon: Madam Speaker, I have indicated to the member opposite that we will seek to find a resolution to the issue that is one that is made in the interests of fairness, in the interests of being compassionate, in the interests of ensuring that we treat people as well as we possibly can given the circumstances that they face and we face in our collective responsibilities in all of these matters. Fabian Torr es Appeal Process Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St.

Johns): Madam Speaker, to the Minister of Justice: Fabian Torres, found guilty in the killing of Beeper Spence, was given a one-year sentence to be served in the community one year ago, which this government is finally arguing on appeal today, across the street. My question to the minister is: if the government thought this particular offender was a danger to the community, as it is arguing today, why did it not have the supports and the protocol in place to fast-track this appeal, to have the hearing within weeks, as we understand was available?

Why did it take four and a half months to obtain the transcript to get the process started, when we understand from the Court of Appeal the transcript could have been available within seven days? Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, generally speaking, the member is misleading the House. The Crown attorneys in this particular case were very diligent about bringing that matter to the court. There were a number of complicating factors, including the fact that it is not the Crown attorneys who determine dates, and it is not the Crown attorneys who are the only lawyers appearing.

There were some very strong arguments made against the matter proceeding any quicker than it did. The Crown attorneys throughout the process, I think, had displayed an appropriate sense of urgency and conveyed that to the court on a timely basis. * (1 350) Mr. Mackintosh: Would the minister acknowledge that indeed it was not just the Crown attorneys; it is the protocol, the lack of protocol, the lack of support for his Crown attorneys?

Woul�he not agree that the lack of fast-tracking of violent offender cases like this give the defence ample opportunity to make motions on the basis of changing circumstances, and indeed here such a motion was presented seven months after the appeal process initially began? Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, the Crown attorneys in this particular case moved it along as quickly as possible. The member seems to think that it is the

2570 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 5, 1998 Crown attorney's position that wins the day in every case. Well, I can indicate to him that the defence lawyers in that particular case consistently opposed certain dates, and in fact those delays resulted in the matter being set down for today. I do not think that anything in the process or otherwise would in any way indicate that the Crowns were less than diligent of their pursuit of this particular appeal.

I do want to say as well that whenever there has been an issue of resources or an issue in terms of addressing process, we have addressed that process and we are committed to doing that. We have an interest, in terms of public safety, to ensure that these matters are dealt with as quickly as possible. But it is no secret that every delay favours an accused, and some defence lawyers in fact use that. I am not suggesting in this case that was the case, but that in fact does happen. Crown Attorneys Caseloads Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Would the minister who says the Crowns are diligent-and we agree.

They are hard-working, terribly hard-working, professional and dedicated, but will he not admit that these prosecutors need supports from this government, from this minister? Will he admit that he cannot leave his prosecutors handling up to 70 files a day, I 0 files an hour, as is reported today in the papers and as Judge Garfinkel recently said, taking shortcuts because of these volumes? Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, as a former prosecutor I understand the difficulties that may arise from time to time.

But I can indicate that this government has consistently provided the Crowns with the resources that they require, and if there is a particular issue in a bail court-and one has to understand. I know the member for St. Johns does not understand that there is a difference between a trial and a bail hearing, but there is a significant difference. If my Crowns come. to � e and indicate that there is an issue with resourcmg, m each and every time we have addressed that. If there is any indication that is an issue, we will address that.

Now I know the member is now trying to apologize for all the mean-spirited things he has said about Crown attorneys, and I appreciate that in fact he is now finally recognizing what a tremendous job our Crown attorneys are doing. Provincial Parks Camping Reservations Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, to the Minister of Natural Resources. Last year we raised concerns about camping reservations going to the San Diego firm Destinet. The minister assured us that not only did we get improved services for our campsites, we get improved accessibility and we get more campsites listed.

The service was so bad that campers signed petitions against the company that doubled reservation rates, demanded credit card payments, limited stays and double-charged campers. In a letter to camper Irene Bernard, the minister said that there were many problems with the company but that he was confident that the reservation system will be an important part of trip planning. Can the minister explain why, when Ms. Bernard phoned to reserve a site, she was told that there were no reservation systems in place for this May long weekend? Hon.

Glen Cummi ngs (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, the reservation system is continuing in the hands of a Manitoba company that has bought the assets of Destinet. They are in the process of establishing a system that will allow for :he continued implementation of a parks reservatiOn system. I would suggest to the member for Dauphin that if he thinks that the inability of people to reserve ahead of time when they are making their travel plans is not important when they are coming to this province to visit, then he does not understand tourism. Mr.

Struthers: Can the minister explain, then, why he told Ms. Bernard that Destinet would establish a Winnipeg call centre by January 19 98 that would not require credit cards, but yesterday she was to�d she has to pay all her camping fees up front by credit card for a camping trip she is not taking until July? Nothing has changed, Mr. Minister. Mr. Cummings: Madam Speaker, a cheque will work just as well. The fact is that if some�ne wishes to �ave a reservation in place immediately, It does take a httle while for the cheque to arrive in the mail. Some people

May 5, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 257 1 would wonder why is there a deposit required. There is a significant demand at a large number of sites, and at the same time we had a significant number of people who were cancelling or not showing up to accept their reservations where they made no deposit. This guarantees those who sincerely want to be in the park and take the opportunity to access our parks are guaranteed a site when they get there or that the sites are being used fully, which is one of the objectives that is obvious to the people who want to tour in this province. * (1 355) Mr.

Struthers: Madam Speaker, the minister has to get his system together. Will he finally abandon all his crazy reservation schemes and re-establish a Manitoba campsite reservation system staffed by Manitobans which will be fair to all campers? Mr. Cummings: This system is eminently fair. We have 12 Manitobans employed doing the job right now with a backup of another dozen to support it during the busy call-in period. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Natural Resources, to complete his response. Mr.

Cummings: Again, the member ignores the reality of people who want to travel any kind of a distance who want to be assured that there will in fact be a site when they arrive at the end of the trail, No. 1; No. 2, that we do not have people tying up sites and then not showing up to access them; No. 3, when we look at the present system versus the previous one, this system will access all of our parks, Madam Speaker, and further to that we will have an opportunity to make the reservations guaranteed, and that is an important aspect. When the person makes a call today, the system pays for all of the costs.

Previously, the person making the call had to make a long-distance call to each of the sites. That is now absorbed in the system. Crime Rate Winnipeg North End Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): My question is for the Minister of Justice. In the 1997 report of the Winnipeg Police Service, it showed that overall in Winnipeg there was a 5 percent drop in crime, but in the north end of the city, District 3, there was in fact a 12 percent increase in violent crime.

Will the Minister of Justice acknowledge the needs for greater resources in his Community and Youth Correctional branch, the north end of Winnipeg, and commit to putting those resources there? Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Thank you very much for the question. I know the member is concerned about this community, as every good MLA should be.

I know that we as a provincial Department of Justice have been working very, very closely with the police, not only in terms of providing resources such as police officers but in fact ensuring that there is a co-ordination of activities between the various agencies. This also includes the area of community youth corrections. I know that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) and my co lleagues in cabinet have approved more money for intensive bail supervision of people released on bail when judges decide that is an appropriate thing to do.

I also know that there is, when people are released from the Manitoba Youth Centre, a very successful program carried out by probation officers to ensure adequate supervision. So we are committed to those types of safety issues, and I want to continue to work with all members in this Legislature to ensure that the problems that we face in any particular area are addressed. Mr.

Kowalski: Will the minister commit to putting additional probation officers in the north end of Winnipeg to work on preventative programs to prevent youth crime before it happens instead of supervising young offenders after they become involved? Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, there are, in our position of our department, essentially three aspects. We want to deal with the suppression issue, which I thought I dealt with adequately and appropriately. The other issue is the one of prevention and also partnership.

Both the issues of partnership and prevention are very important in terms of not just looking at professional social workers or probation officers in our department who are doing a good job and whom we are giving extra resources to, but to establish community partners,

2572 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May 5, 19 98 groups that do not go home after their shift is over but groups that live in the community, groups that are part of the community and want to resolve these types of issues and help the youth. I know our urban sports camp has been very successful. We are looking to the introduction of more of those sports camps. As well, we are looking at other proposals, oi}e of which is coming from the police to deal with that issue. * (1 400) Mr. Kowalski: My final supplementary is for the Premier.

Will he now listen more caref ully to opposition members, as he has no members in the north end of Winnipeg, about what is needed in the north end of Winnipeg? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I thank the member for his question. I think that my colleague from River East and my co!Ieague from Rossmere would both argue that they are in the north end of Winnipeg. I think he is speaking particularly of the northwest end of Winnipeg. In fact, he may be talking about the northwest comer of Winnipeg, because I used to think that the area in which I was born and raised was the north end.

Having said all of that, I thank him for his suggestions, and I assure him that I will at all times listen to his views about issues that are important to his part of the province. I think that as a government we will certainly be mindful of those needs when we address policies to address those issues in government. Daycare Policy Educa tion Facilities Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, in 19 90 the Filmon government changed a popular and common-sense policy established by the NDP government to put daycares in every new school constructed.

I would like to table a newsletter, and I quote: Mike Radcliffe's involvement was instrumental. His efforts made all the difference. Some Honou rable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for St. James, to pose her question. Ms. Mihychuk: Madam Speaker, I did not quite finish my introduction. Many schools have been built in that time since this government has taken office, and that policy has changed. In fact, one of the schools includes the one in my constituency that was opened just last year, Greenway School. This was built with no daycare even though the need is just as intense.

The local daycare reports a waiting list of over one year. Can the Minister of Education explain why a school in the constituency of a cabinet minister gets a daycare while other schools in this province are rejected? Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Educat ion and Training): Madam Speaker, the answer is quite simple of course, and the member knows the answer. The answer is that, as we rebuild schools, schools that are being demolished and rebuilt, we try to rebuild them to the standards they had before. Montrose School in River Heights had a daycare in it; we rebuilt it with the daycare in it.

Greenway School, we rebuilt with the things that were in Greenway. That is our policy and we- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Education and Training, to complete her response. Mrs. Mcintosh: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

In both the instances that the member has referenced-and there have been other schools rebuilt where a school is being demolished because it has become in such a state that to renovate would cost more than rebuilding, then the Public Schools Finance Board, which makes these decisions, will make a determination as to a rebuilding, and the rebuilding will be redone to try to meet the needs that it met prior to the demolition and reconstruction.

So, Madam Speaker, if a school has a daycare in it and it is demolished, it will be rebuilt with accommodation for a daycare so that the community still has the same services but in a new building. The Greenway School, I might add, is a beautiful new school that she should be very happy to see in her constituency. It is beautifully done.

May 5, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2573 Ms. Mihychuk: Madam Speaker, I would like the minister to explain how the government can justify building a daycare in Montrose School, which did not have a daycare previously, and refused numerous schools that they have just built when demographics and logic says the need is there, and they said no. Mrs.

Mcintosh: Madam Speaker, I think the many parents who use the daycare at Montrose School would be very surprised to learn they were sending their children to something that did not exist, because they have been sending their children to daycare at Montrose for many, many years. It was a major concern when the school was slated for demolition, that there was no place for daycare in the area other than that school.

That school was rebuilt according to the needs that were there when the existing school was there; similarly Greenway School, which is a beautiful, beautiful build ing, redone in such a way that it gives greater opportunity to the people in the area. I think the member might be well advised to tour Greenway School and see the improved accommodation for the students in that area that they now have because the building was demolished and reconstructed. Ms.

Mihychuk: Madam Speaker, will the minister just plain-that the whole policy is a farce, because there was no room in Greenway School for a daycare because it was overcrowded. The fact is that this policy is based on who you know and the riding, rather than on need and common sense. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for The Pas. An Honourable Member: No answer. Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Madam Speaker- An Honourable Member: No answer. Oh, now she wants to answer. Madam Speaker: Order, please. * (1410 ) Point of Order Mrs.

Mcintosh: The members opposite are complaining that I did not answer a question, but there was no question. The member used her opportunity for a question to make a statement. There was no question put. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Thompson, on the same point of order. Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Madam Speaker. If the Minister of Education does not want to answer questions, she does not have to. But when you start the third question with a phrase "can the minister explain," you know that is a question.

If the minister chooses not to answer it, let her state that on the record. Maybe she is afraid to try and justify what she has done in terms of this patronage for the River Heights constituency at the expense of other constituencies in this province. Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised by the honourable Minister of Education, in all honesty, I did not hear a question. But I will take the matter under advisement to research Hansard and to ascertain, indeed, if a question was posed. Fishing Industry Fish Stock Decline-Northern Manitoba Mr.

Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Madam Speaker, our people who have traditionally made their living from fishing have over the years seen their means of making a living deteriorate to the point where they are no longer finding it feasible to fish and instead going on welfare. Fishing in the North is in a crisis situation. My question to the Minister of Natural Resources is this.

Given the serious decline of fish stocks-which I know he is aware of-over the past decade in places like Easterville and Grand Rapids, where fishing has virtually been wiped out, I want to ask the minister why his government has failed to protect those fish stocks during that period of time. Hon. Glen Cummi ngs (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, I believe that action is

2574 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May 5, 19 98 underway with the support of the community to protect the fish during the brief spawning period as we speak. Minister of Natural Resources Meeting Request Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the �inis ter whether he would consider going to some northern communities, places like Grand Rapids, The Pas, Moose Lake and Pukatawagan and meet with fishermen over there, so that he can see first-hand just how serious the situation has become. Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Well, Madam Speaker, I am quite interested to work with the communities in those areas and others to deal with the issue of whether or not we have appropriate protection, particularly during the spawning period. We have had some, I think, significant representation and some changes in thinking on the part of everyone about how we can best manage the stocks for the benefit of the communities.

I would be more than willing to co-operate and work with the communities because, in fact, no matter what regulations we bring forward, in the end we have to work with the local communities to make sure that we manage the stocks appropriately. Fishing Industry Federal-Provincial Assistance Mr.

Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): My last question to the same minister, Madam Speaker, is to ask him why his government has not gone after the federal government for a federal-provincial program that would assist fishers in the North in much the same way as the tag program in the Maritimes and on the West Coast is helping and assisting fishermen when their industry is on a downturn. Hon. Glen Cummi ngs (Minister of Natural Resources): Well, there are two parts to the answer.

First of all, we have on many occasions, not necessarily for the community that the member is asking about-we have however on numerous occasions talked to the federal authorities about whether or not they feel they have some responsibility to assist in the reduction of a number of commercial quotas that are available in the various areas.

The reason there was still some uncertainty about how to deal with the fishery that the member mentions specifically is that I am getting conflicting comments from the fishermen in the area as to the worth and the efficacy of eliminating the fishery or whether we should expend our efforts in revitalizing it and use that as a method of bringing some economic improvement to the area. At the present, we are using the latter approach. Minister of Natural Resources Meeting Request Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Madam Speaker, together with the members for Dauphin (Mr. Struthers), Flin Flon (Mr.

Jennessen), The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) and myself, we had an opportunity to sit in on hearings that were conducted by the Standing Committee on Oceans and Fisheries, and we heard a wide variety of problems by the fishers in northern Manitoba, the inland fishery problems. I would like to pursue the question that was raised by my colleague the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) with respect to meeting with these communities to hear first-hand on the part of this government the problems that these fishers are experiencing on northern Manitoba waters.

One of the issues that was raised was the CEDF, and it appears that this is turning into a collection agency. I would like to ask the Minister of Natural Resources if he can give us a time frame as to when he will meet fishers in Grand Rapids, Berens River, Poplar River, Bl oodvein and other northern communities. Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, I did not directly answer the question when it was raised by the member for The Pas because the last time I responded in the positive to meet with a group, the member for Dauphin asked if that was possible within 24 hours.

My doors are always open. I will, in fact, meet with any of these groups who would make a proposal for a discussion. When I came to this office, I met with a significant number of fishermen representatives all around Lake Winnipeg and beyond, and I am certainly still open to further discussion. The concerns of the efficacy and

May 5, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2575 the profitability of some of the fishing areas is going to be an ongoing problem, and we need to work together to solve it. Mr. Robinson: Madam Speaker, included among the problems that we were told yesterday were reduced catches, higher transportation costs and a crippling debt to CEDF. Perhaps the minister did not hear me correctly. We do not simply want the fishermen to come to the Manitoba Legislature.

We would like to have the minister and perhaps the Minister responsible for Hydro go to these communities that have been affected by different circumstances with the fishery. I would like to ask the minister again if he can give us a time frame as to when he will take that opportunity to meet with these fishers in their own communities. Mr. Cummings: Certainly. Whenever we can arrange a meeting. I saw some of these areas last summer, Madam Speaker, and I am quite prepared to meet with the groups. I think there are some ongoing issues that, with all parties at the table, we can probably do a lot.

We have a tremendous sports fishery that has developed in a number of lakes across the North, and if we apply some of the same thinking to some of our other areas that are under pressure right now, Manitoba will be able to maintain its standard as one of the best fishing areas in Canada. Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Economic Growth Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): I have risen often in this Legislature to extol the economic success stories that have occurred and continue to occur in the constituency of Pembina.

Recently in Rural Manitoba Development, a publication of Manitoba Rural Development, no less than eight businesses from Pembina were highlighted. Thanks to a variety of government programs, including the Rural Entrepreneur Assistance program, Grow Bonds and Community Works Loan Programs, these businesses have succeeded beyond their wildest expectations. They continue to provide quality employment opportunities to the people of Pembina and rural Manitoba.

I would therefore like to congratulate Ron Giesbrecht of Ronnie's Jumbo Seeds; Ralph and John Fehr of Elias Woodworking and Manufacturing Limited; Alvin Thiessen of Winkler Meats; John Borland of Acrylon Plastics; Tina Friesen of Pembina Valley Job Finding Club; Peter Wiebe of Geriatric Education and Consultative Services and Charlene Morrow of CJ's Massage Clinic. Our government recognized the potential of these individuals and their businesses. Rural Manitobans are succeeding; the rural economy is succeeding, and more rural Manitobans are finding new and exciting career possibilities.

I am confident that we will hear a great deal more from all these companies in the future as they continue developing their markets and their clientele. My co ngratulations go out to these people and their companies. Thank you. * (1 420) Provincial Parks-Camping Reservations Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, in 1996 this government made it perf ectly clear that park use would no longer be accessible to all Manitobans. It systematically raised user fees, introduced new fees for seniors and discouraged tourism by issuing parking tickets and removing park gate attendants.

One of the most questionable things this government did was to contract out our parks reservation system to a San Diego-based company. This was done with a fanfare of better service and more jobs for Manitobans. One of the hitches to privatization was of course the doubling of fees for reservations. It was not long before the Department of Natural Resources had to assign a staffperson to accept the hundreds of complaints that poured in over Destinet.

By the end of the summer, a group of campers got together to sign a petition against the new system which had ruined the camping experience that some had enjoyed for 30 years. No jobs came, and instead Manitobans had to phone San Diego to reserve a site. Manitobans trying to get a camping spot within an hour's drive from where they lived heard San Diego operators saying things like: where is Manitoba or what is a white shell?

2576 LEGISLATIV E ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 5, 19 98 Complaints about the system included being required to pay by credit card four days in advance of camping, double booking and overcharging. When the minister responded to the campers in October of last year, he acknowledged that re-routing calls created new problems and those policies were incorrectly administered by Destinet, but he promised the Destinet system would be improved. In February, Destinet Reservation went bankrupt. Given the service they provided to Manitobans, this comes as no surprise.

Because of the bungling of yet another privatization scheme, there is today no reservation service in place for the May long weekend. The worst part of this exercise has been the government still fails to recognize that good service in our parks makes good economic sense. Our parks provide recreation for citizens, wonderful opportunities for tourism and used to provide employment for our students. Once again, in its efforts to privatize services, this government has let its ideology overshadow what is best for the province of Manitoba. Environmental Programs Mr.

Ben Sveinson (La Verendrye): Madam Speaker, our government recognizes the important link that exists between education and the environment. As we all know, children are our future, and the environment in which we live is their future. Therefore, it is encouraging that two schools in my constituency of La Verendrye have taken a leadership role in preserving and enhancing our environment.

With $5 ,000 in funding provided under the provincial Special Conservation and Endangered Species Fund, Richer School will improve the natural habitat in part of their schoolyard and provide all students with an opportunity to learn about the environment. Lorette Coll egiate has received a $2,000 grant to transf orm a large wheat field, which is currently completely devoid of trees, into an outdoor classroom. Under the project, the school will establish a permanent outdoor learning resource by planting trees and native grasses to restore again a part of the schoolyard to its original prairie and woodland habitat.

Over the years, the Special Conservation and Endangered Species Fund has helped organizations in our communities and across the province improve our surroundings. I have every confidence that these most recent projects in my constituency will provide lasting benefits to the current student population and students to come. So, on behalf of all honourable members, I congratulate the students and the staff at Richer and Lorette Collegiate for their efforts and wish them all the best as they create their own lasting legacy. Thank you. Royal Comm ission on Aboriginal Peoples Mr.

Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): In November of 19 96, the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples was released and promptly forgotten by the federal and provincial governments. The plight of aboriginal victims at residential schools run by or authorized by the federal government was a major component of the report. These paternalistic schools were run with a deliberate goal of assimilation. Children were forced to stay in them 24 hours a day for I 0 months a year or more. Speaking in their own language was prohibited, abuse was common and education often an after thought.

Finally, this past January the federal government issued a response to the commission called: Gathering Strength. Not included in that response was a commitment or a policy on settling outstanding claims against the federal government by victims of residential schools. Currently there are more than I ,000 lawsuits against the federal government from these victims with many more expected in the near future. We are told that the federal government is now considering settling with victims rather than forcing them to pay through individual court costs.

This is the obvious solution to the very valid concerns of these victims, and we urge the federal government to do the right thing and settle them now. The federal government should make it clear that none of these funds will be taken from the previously announced healing fund which goes towards communities, not individuals. Settling the claims of victims would be a positive step forward. The federal government should also act on the other economic and

May 5, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 2577 social priorities identified in the report, and we also continue to wait for the province to make its response to the report. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Hepatitis C-Compensation Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I want to just say a few words with respect to the hepatitis C issue. Madam Speaker, this is an issue in which what I would like to be able to see is some leadership coming from the government in dealing in a more tangible way with a very important issue that is facing the province of Manitoba. The minister, the Premier (Mr.

Filmon), talked earlier today in Question Period with reference to, well, its concern is having double standards, one in Manitoba, something else happening in B.C. and something else may be happening in Ontario and other provinces. To a certain degree, that already exists today in terms of the way in which health care is delivered. You can find many different examples. What we are really talking about is trying to look at individuals that were infected prior to 19 86 and acknowledging that there is a need, there are special circumstances surrounding this particular case to justify some form of compensation.

We would appeal to the Premier to take a position on it. What the Premier seems to be doing is leading towards, well, we will wait and see what happens in Ottawa. That is in part what the resolution is currently being debated in health care, which causes concern. Madam Speaker, I do believe that the province has not only a role, it also has a responsibility here.

I would like to see the government of the day live up to that responsibility and to indicate to individuals that have been infected prior to 19 86 in particular that there will be something, and that something will be hopefully determined in the not-too-distant future. Thank you, Madam Speaker. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. David Newman (Deputy Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Reimer), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) FAMILY SERVICES Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Committee of Supply will be meeting in Room 254. We will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Family Services. When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 9. 1. Administration and Finance (

b) Executive Support

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits on page 53 of the Estimates book. Shall that item pass? Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): We were not getting very far yesterday on the conflict of interest, because the minister has one line and only one line. I suppose she has been advised to stick to that one line and not deviate, so she does not really want to answer my questions. She just wants to repeat her answer over and over again, which I have had a chance to read in Hansard, and it is fairly obvious that she is following a line that she has chosen to take. But I am not going to give up on this.

I would like to continue to ask the minister some questions on this topic and see if she understands why the public as well as myself are concerned about this conflict of interest. First of all, I guess I should make clear that I actually have been in meetings with Mr. Doug Sexsmith in the past and always found him to be very helpful. In fact, he briefed me on some 0/Cs a couple of years ago. I had met him at public meetings in the past, and I am not in any way blaming this individual for what I see is a violation of The Conflict of Interest Act of Manitoba.

My concern is with this minister who should be familiar with the act and should know what the prohibitions are, namely, communication with the department for a year after leaving the employ of the government. So I am in no way interested in criticizing or punishing this individual but rather the person who is still in government, namely, this minister who should know

2578 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 5, 19 98 better and should not have got Mr.

Sexsmith into this predicament of being caught in the middle, because ultimately she is responsible for him being invited to meetings after he left government. * (1 440) So I am wondering if the minister understands that not only is there a perception in the public that there was a violation of The Conflict of lnterest Act, but that there could be a perception on the part of other companies who bid on this contract who did not get it that there may have been favouritism involved here because it went to a company who hired an employee who used to be the assistant deputy minister.

Can the minister see how other companies may feel that they did not get a fair deal here? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Chairperson, I know that my honourable friend in his comments would like to paint a picture that, in some way, I have done something that is inappropriate.

But again I want to go back to the facts of this case, because what my honourable friend seems to be missing is the fact that the Civil Service Commission certainly indicated to Doug Sexsmith that there were certain parameters that needed to be followed to ensure that he did not contravene the conflict of interest guidelines that have been laid down. So anything that Mr.

Doug Sexsmith did was, indeed, as a result of the information and the discussions with the Civil Service Commission that clearly spelled out what he could and he could not do for the year period after his departure from the Department of Family Services.

I know that my honourable friend might be a little hung up on this issue and trying to create an issue where no issue exists, but my sense or my feeling is that it is a personal agenda of his, probably a very personal agenda because he does not agree with the direction that our government has taken in amalgamating the City of Winnipeg's welfare caseload with the provincial caseload.

I know he voted against the legislation, and I know that from time to time he has taken the side of the bureaucrats in the City of Winnipeg and has made it very clear that he does not believe that the bureaucrats that work for the Province of Manitoba are as competent as those that work for the City of Winnipeg. I believe that is on record in last year in Hansard. It might have something to do with his frustration around the direction that government is taking in amalgamating welfare in the city of Winnipeg.

I want to indicate to my honourable friend that we are government and we make decisions based on discussions and consultation with the general public and the people of Manitoba that have told us very clearly that they want to see government delivered efficiently and effectively with the least cost to the taxpayer and that there is a significant overlap and duplication that can be involved in two different levels of government doing the same job. We have some 2,000 people on our welfare caseloads on a year-to-year basis that move back and forth between municipal caseloads and provincial caseloads.

Quite frankly, I do not think it is fair to those individuals to have them bounced around from one system to the other. So I think in the instance of the amalgamation of our welfare caseloads in Winnipeg to one tier that those people will be better served and will receive the fair and appropriate service that they deserve in a much more meaningful way. So I think that there might be very much a difference of opinion and philosophy between my honourable friend's party and the party that happens to be in government right now.

I know that my honourable friend opposes the amalgamation, and I hate to impute motives, but I somehow think that maybe my honourable friend, because he does not like the direction this government is taking, is taking it out on a person that has served our province, I would say, in a very positive way as a public servant and has tried to meet the needs of those people that he has served in the bureaucracy for many, many years, as I indicated yesterday, under different administrations. So I want to say that I understand the frustration my honourable friend feels when he, so to speak, is not in the driver's seat.

I know, because I sat in opposition for a couple of years too, and sometimes it is extremely frustrating when you have a very definite belief or philosophy, a belief that you are elected to move in a certain direction and the government of the day chooses to take a different direction, bring in legislation that might not be the kind of legislation that you would

May 5, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 257 9 bring in should you be in government and making the decisions. So I sense his frustration and I sense that he is using this issue to somehow-well, I guess I could go a little further and indicate that I think my honourable friend and his party might not think that the private sector in some instances might have some value or some contribution to make to the workings of government. We believe quite differently. So all I want to indicate, Mr.

Chairperson, is that my honourable friend seems to be quite frustrated and he seems to be quite hung up on this issue and he seems to be wanting to mar the name of Doug Sexsmith, and he can use whatever means he might want to to try to implicate me in his comments, but I want to say again that I think it is a difference of opinion on the direction we are taking as a government as opposed to what he might do should he be the Minister of Family Services and have some responsibility, not only to the people that serve our province so admirably as civil servants, but to the taxpayers of Manitoba, who I know do support the direction that we are taking.

So I will repeat again that I believe his motives are completely different from what he is stating on the record, and I will continue to indicate that the Civil Service Commission, who is responsible for interpreting the conflict of interest guidelines, certainly did give advice and that advice was followed. If my honourable friend has something that is concrete or some allegation that he would like to make that Mr. Doug Sexsmith contravened the guidelines, I would like him to indicate that to me or we can continue to debate this for a considerable length of time.

I am prepared to stand by the legal counsel and Civil Service Commission that indicated that Mr. Doug Sexsmith has done nothing inappropriate. Mr. Martindale: The minister did not answer my question, so I will pose it again. I am wondering if she understands that the reason for conflict of interest legislation that prohibits contact after employment with government is to preclude the perception on the part of other bidders that there may have been favouritism involved, that they did not get a fair deal because an assistant deputy minister went to work for the company that got the successful contract. Mrs.

Mitchelson: Again, I want to indicate to my honourable friend that there were certain directions that were given to Mr. Sexsmith. He followed those directions that were given by the Civil Service Commission. There was nothing inappropriate, and I stand by that. The contract for the business case was entered into before Mr. Sexsmith left government. Mr.

Martindale: Does the minister understand that what we are dealing with here is a problem that affects all elected people, regardless of political party or regardless of what province we are talking about and that if the government has employees who negotiate contracts whether we are talking about Mike Bessey or someone else who is an employee of this government, and then leaves government with a sweetheart deal with a company that they helped negotiate with, that reflects badly on all elected people, not just the government of the day but on all of us who are elected, and that the public is going to say this is just the same old gang looking after the same old gang?

Is that not concern enough for this minister to be cautious, even overly cautious, so that the public does not have that perception? The way to do that would be to not invite someone to meetings during the one-year so-called cooling-off period which is what the act says: no communication with the government for a period of one year. Mrs. Mitchelson: I just want to go back over the employment history of Doug Sexsmith and put on the record the facts.

I know that the people of Manitoba will judge me and judge our government based on fact, not on innuendo and the kind of tack my honourable friend has taken over the last couple of days around this issue. * (1 450) Doug Sexsmith was hired in government in March of 1976. I am trying to remember now what party was in power in 19 76.

I think that was a New Democratic government under Ed Schreyer that was the government in power when he was hired at the entry level into the government of Manitoba and continued through till 19 80 when he took a bit of time off to go back to university and upgrade and was hired back into the civil service in July of 19 82. If I remember correctly, it might have been Howard Pawley's government that was in power at the time he came back

2580 LEGISLATIV E ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May 5, 19 98 into government. He has continued an exemplary service to the public and the people of Manitoba since that time and up till December of 1996 when he chose to pursue a career in the private sector, which I think happens from time to time. People do choose to change career paths and look for new challenges and opportunities, more often today than they have done in the past when people started at one job and retired at the end of their working years in that same job. So I do not take that away from anyone that is looking for new opportunities and new challenges.

So here we have an individual, Mr. Chairperson, who has been a long-time career civil servant. He certainly was not a political appointment in any way, but someone who worked his way up through the civil service, upgraded himself by taking some time to go to university and, quite frankly, has done a great service for the province and the people of Manitoba. So I hate to see my honourable friend painting him into a comer that sort of-and he is intimating that there was some political involvement in trying to pay Mr. Sexsmith off. I mean, I had no involvement in any way in giving any advice to Mr.

Sexsmith-about what he should or should not do in his own personal career choices and options except to say to him that he had done an exemplary job on behalf oft he people of Manitoba while he served in the public service. I knew that he could continue to do a good job in whatever career path he chose. I know that my honourable friend is trying to paint some other picture into this process. It is completely unfounded, and, again, I am extremely disappointed in the tack that my honourable friend would take in trying to in some way indicate that Mr. Sexsmith has done something inappropriate. Mr. Martindale: Mr.

Chairperson, the political part of this is the minister's lack of good political judgment. Mr. Chairperson: Item 9. 1. Administration and Finance (

b) Executive Support (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $49 1 ,400-pass.

(2) Other expenditures. Mr. Martindale: I wonder if I could ask the minister at this time to provide handouts that will be relevant later on in the Estimates: namely, Financial Assistance and External Agencies on page 53, the list of grants and agencies; also, Maintenance of Children and External Agencies on page 65, including the Family Support Innovations Fund. If the minister could provide those in advance which she usually does every year. Mrs. Mitchelson : Yes, Mr. Chairperson, we will get those and have them available very shortly. Mr. Chairperson: Item 9. 1 .(b )

(2) Other Expenditures $80,700-pass. 9.1 (

c) Children's Advocate (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, several years ago, the Children's Advocate asked the province to publicly release recommendations made by the Chief Medical Examiner when children die in the care of a child welfare agency. We have heard various comments by the minister. I am going by memory, but I believe the minister said that it is something that she would consider.

I am wondering if we have any progress here and whether the minister is prepared to start releasing these reports or recommendations but still keeping confidential any information that needs to be kept confidential. Mrs. Mitchelson: There have been a lot of little issues that have to be sorted out with the release of this. I want to indicate to my honourable friend that the next report of the Chief Medical Examiner will have that information in it.

The reason, again, it took so long was because we needed to know whether there was an amendment required for The Fatality Inquiries Act or The Child and Family Services Act. We have determined that no amendment is needed and that the Chief Medical Examiner can release that information on a yearly report, and it will happen in his next annual report. Mr. Martindale: Could the minister tell me approximately when we can expect that report? Mr.

Chairperson: It has just been brought to my attention that maybe the minister would please introduce the staf f that has joined us at the table, now before you answer in your next response. Mrs. Mitchelson: Besides the two staff that were introduced yesterday, David Langtry has joined us at

May 5, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 258 1 the table. He is the ADM for Child and Family service for children under The Child and Family Services. Services Act. I do want to indicate that the Chief Medical Examiner falls under the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews). I would imagine his report comes out probably at the same time every year, and I would have to check to see when that is. I am thinking it might be fall, but I would not want to make any commitment until I know what the pattern of release of his reports has been. So I will check and provide that to my honourable friend. * (1 500) Mr.

Martindale: I would like to deal with some issues, Mr. Chairperson, that come out of the Fourth Annual Report of the Children's Advocate. The Advocate has expressed frustration experienced by complainants who felt that the Children's Advocate should have a broader mandate, particularly to investigate educational issues and custody and access.

He points out that parents and children have virtually no rights and limited avenues of appeal in these areas, and I am wondering if the minister is in favour of broadening the mandate for investigating what, I guess, would be the concerns of children in other government departments. Mrs. Mitchelson: I know that we went through an extensive process. I know my honourable friend was a part of that process when we reviewed the Office of the Children's Advocate and held public hearings throughout Manitoba last year.

As a result, we received a majority report, and then subsequently a minority report from my honourable friend's caucus on the majority report that did not quite agree with what was being recommended. I think the recommendation of the majority report was that the Children's Advocate report directly to the Legislature rather than the minister, that in fact the mandate stay the same and that there be some other minor changes like-maybe not so minor, and that is time limits to the appointment of the Child Advocate.

So we have accepted the majority report, and the legislative changes that have been brought in to be passed this session reflect that majority report-that is, to maintain the mandate of the Child Advocate to Mr. Martindale: Does the minister plan to keep the existing Children's Advocate after the amendment is passed, or will he be invited to apply for the time limited position? What are the minister's plans? Mrs. Mitchelson: Once the act is passed, it will be entirely up to the Legislature, which will be an all-party process, to determine what the action would be.

I would presume that, given its new piece of legislation and a different reporting structure, there would be some sort of competitive process, and the present Advocate would be entitled to apply for that job and be assessed through that competitive process. Mr. Martindale: Under the existing mandate or even after the amendments are passed, is it possible for the Advocate to produce special reports on any area, and, if not, is that something the minister would consider adding to the Advocate's responsibilities? Mrs.

Mitchelson: At this point in time, and I guess even with the amendments or the change, his mandate is to investigate under The Child and Family Services Act, and that is what would continue to happen, even though the report is to the Legislature. Mr. Martindale: The most telling comments, I think, in the Advocate's Fourth Annual Report are on the last page, on page 17 , where he says, and I quote: "Sole rel iance on the good will and philanthropy of neighbours, social agencies, and communities is not enough as we prepare for the next millennium.

The needs of children and families involved in the Child and Family Services system cannot be isolated from the broader social problems of poverty, unemployment, family violence, et cetera." I am wondering if this minister understands what the advocate is saying, and if so, if she thinks that is reflected in the policies of her government.

We know that we have had an environmental scan or review of Winnipeg Child and Family Services, and we have heard in that report and in many other reports to government that poverty is one of the contributing factors to a high rate of children in care-not the only one, but it is one. I think the advocate is pointing out

2582 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 5, 19 98 that you cannot operate the Child and Family Services agencies separate from other departments of government, and in fact, in this case Employment and Inc ome Assistance is part of the same department in this province. So I am wondering if the minis ter under stands these very good observations of the advocate and what she is prepared to do about it. Mrs. Mitchelson: Absolutely.

I think we all understand the need and the reality that statistics have told us for many, many years that chi ldren that are born to adolescent parents, single parents in many instances, have greater needs. Very often they do live lives of poverty if they are on their own and dependent on welfare as their only source of income. Statistics have told us that they are six times more likely to need the services of a child welfare system.

We all know that life on welfare is a commitment to a life in poverty, and it is all interrelated and all of the research that has been done by the Fraser Mustards and many others throughout our communities have indica ted that we need to look at better ways to invest in our children and especially child ren at risk.

Our government is very aware, and as a consequence, many of the things that have been announced and will continue to be announced as we have resources freed up as a result of a comm itment to the National Child Benefit, we will see those very intensive supports going into children with high needs, families with high needs and child ren at risk. Everything is interrelated; I have never denied that.

I have never denied the fact that-and I know my honourable friend quotes the statistics about the number of unacceptably high number of child ren that we have in care per capita as compared to other provinces across the country. It seems that we are taking more children into care rather than doing the up front work, even working with families wherever possible to keep families together and put supports into those families.

I want to make it very clear that if there is an issue of abuse and neglect, we are not going to leave children in those circumstances, but if we can work and ensure that the tools are in the hands of parents that need a little bit of support in order to make that family healthier, we are focusing our energies and efforts in that direction. So I want to indi cate that I am very cogni zant and very aware, and the comments that the Child Advocate makes are comments that I think we all know and we all understand.

The only thing is that we have got to channel our resources in different directions, and we are doing exactly that with the announcements that have been made to date around BabyFirst and Earlystart; some things that will be announced in the very near future around adolescent pregnancy and nutrition programs; the increase in child care support for low-income working families; and the tying of some of our programs for early intervention into the child care system, tying of some of our early intervention programs into the public health system.

The whole issue, and the first step that we announced around fetal alcohol syndrome, ju st last week I think it was, is all an indication of our wanting to work with the community and ensure that wherever possible we have families that need support connected into something that will have a positive impact, not only on them and their ability to parent but most signifi cantly on the child ren that are going to be our next generation and those children that we will need working as productive members of society so they can pay for us to be in nursing homes when we need that kind of support. Mr.

Martindale: This government made cuts in social assistance and foster care rates and elim inated funding for friendship centres in Manitoba and numerous other cuts. Now, in the runup to an election, we are hearing a whole bunch of good-news preelection announce ments. Mr. Chairperson: Item 9. 1. (

c) Children's Advocate (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $23 3, 800-pass; 1. ( c)

(2) Other Expenditures $82, 200-pa ss; 9 .1. (

d) Social Services Advisory Comm ittee. Mr. Martindale: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. I have a very interesting letter which was addressed to the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and copied to this minis ter from the Village of Winnip egosis dated January 12 , 19 98, and it is a very disturbing letter, and I am going to quote from it. It says: This letter is to express our deep concern over a ruling by the Social Services Appeal Board which we feel has far-reaching implica tions for the adminis tration of social assistance throughout Manitoba. In this case, the appeal board allowed assistance to an appli cant, in spite of the fact that the

May 5, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2583 family net, after-tax income was over $36,000 and the family's gross income was in excess of $50,000. This is someone who is employed seasonally. This appeal was successful, in spite of the fact that this family was advised in 19 96 to plan their income, and they failed to do so.

The munic ipality also pointed out that they have the ability to access short-term funding. * (15 10 ) I would like to quote again from a letter which says: it is generally understood in society that, when a person, family or business has a temporary cash flow problem, they look to their own resources, including the ability to borrow money from banks, in order to cover these periods. The municipal ity says it would appear that, if the family chooses to ignore the appeal board regarding planning their finances, they could, again, obtain assistance in spite of a very large family income.

The municip ality points out that this is the same situation-seasonal emplo yment-that Manitoba's farmers experience. During some times of the year they have no cash flow. They go on to say there are people on fixed incomes throughout Manitoba who manage to pay property taxes and provide for themselves. It is most inappropria te that their tax dollars support social assistance applica tions in such cases. I am wondering if the minis ter took any action as a result of this Jetter or whether she has some sort of explanation of why this appeal was allowed. Mrs.

Mitchelson: I know that the Social Services Advisory Committee heard the appeal, and they followed guidelines and procedures when people come forward and do not have any money and are not earning any income. In fact, there is a responsibility to provide support if that family is in need. So they followed the guidelines and the procedures that are set down and allowed the appeal. Mr. Chairperson: Before we continue, would the minister like to introduce the staff that is present today? Mrs. Mitchelson: Yes. Thanks. Joining us at the table is Isabel Furtado from the Social Services Advisory Committee. Mr.

Martindale: The municipal ity pointed out that there are other people in- well, we are talking about the villa ge of Winnipegosis-employed in the same industry, employed in the same seasonal business, who did not apply for income assistance and whose income may be the same or simi lar. So I am wondering why the decision was made in this circu mstance, and does it not open the door for other people who may want to take advantage of this precedent? Mrs. Mitchelson : The Social Services Advi sory Comm ittee deals with each appeal on an individual basis.

They do not go out and recruit people to come before the appeal board, and they do not go out and recruit people to apply for welfare. They are the appeal process if someone feels they have been unjustly treated by the welfare system. So anyone who is a citizen of Manitoba can apply for access to the welfare system. They are assessed on an individual, case-by case basis, and if it is felt that it is warranted, they receive assistance or they may be denied. If in fact they are denied, there is an appeal process that is set up, and that is the Social Services Advis ory Committee.

They look at each appeal on an individual basis and make that assessment on an individ ual basis, but they do not set policy for municipalities or for other levels of government. Mr. Chairperson : For the benefit of the committee, the page here present now is going to be floating back and forth to the committees. So, if there is any wish of the committee to use the service of the page while the page is present, please take advantage of that now, rather than wait until she is not here. Mr. Martindale: Mr.

Chairperson, could the minis ter tell me what percen tage of appeals was succes sful for clien ts enrolled under The Employment and Income Assistance Act in the previous year, whichever year that is that the minis ter has information for? Mrs. Mitchelson: Right, this is for the fiscal year 19 97-98, ending in February of 19 98. There were a total of 993 appeals filed; 52 were allowed; 265 were withdrawn because they were resolved to the satisfaction of the client. What happens is that they file an appeal, there is further discussion with the depart-

258 4 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May 5, 19 98 ment, and the issue is resolved without it having to go to appeal . Mr. Chairman, 31 9 were dismissed; 93 did not appear; 33 were outside the jurisdiction of the appeal body because they were not filed in time or whatever; 98 are still in process; and there were 13 3 that were withdrawn without resolution. That might be because they just abandoned the process. Mr. Martindale: Could the minis ter tell me what percent were successful of municipal assistance cli ents? Mrs. Mitchelson: I cannot remember what the question was.

There were 488 municipal assistance appeals. Was that the question? Mr. Martindale: How many were successf ul? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairman, 18 were allowed; 18 6 dismissed; 15 7 withdrawn; 80 did not appear; 18 are outside of jurisdiction; and 29 pending. Mr. Martindale: If the figures are correct, that there were 488 appeals and 18 were allowed, the success rate was .03 percent, which is extremely small. Is the minis ter concerned about that at all? Mrs. Mitchelson : This is a little confusing, and I do not have the figures here to tell you.

If you look at-we do not have the breakdown between municipal and provincial income assistance cl ients who withdrew from the process because they were resolved in a satisfactory manner to the client. * (1 520) Mr. David Faurschou. Act ing Chairperson, in the Chair So the 15 7 that were withdrawn, a significant number of those would have been withdrawn because they were satisfactorily dealt with at the departmental level without having to go to appeal .

So when you look at the number dismissed, which is 18 6, when you look at the number allowed, which was 18 , I cannot give you the exact number, but in general terms about 32 percent of the total appeals are resolved in favour of the appellant. There would be a significant number of those withdrawn that would have been dealt with satisfactorily. So the percentage is about 32 percent that are resolved in favour of the appellant. Mr. Martindale: Well, that percentage is certainly much better than the percentage I was calcula ting.

I think the message to people is that there is a good chance that their problem will be resolved before it gets to an appeal hearing. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Faur schou): Item 9 .I. (

d) Social Services Advi sory Comm ittee

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $19 4, I 00-- pass; 1.( d)

(2) Other Expenditures $15 7 ,400-pa ss. 9 .I. (

e) Human Resource Services

(1) Salaries and Empl oyee Benefits $829,50 0--pa ss; 9. l .(e)

(2) Other Expenditures $89 ,400- pass; 9. l .(

f) Policy and Planning

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $772,000. Mr. Martindale: I note that under Policy and Planning, the staff are responsible for co-ordination of program evaluations and reviews. I would be interested in knowing if this includes an evaluation of Taking Charge!. Mrs. Mitchelson : If just before we start I could introduce Drew Perry, the executive director of Policy and Planning who has joined us. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Faurschou): Welcome, Mr. Drew Perry, to the committee. Mrs.

Mitchelson: Policy and Planning within my department is co-chairing the steering comm ittee with the federal government to do the external evaluation of Taking Charge!. Mr. Martindale: Could the minis ter tell me what company is doing the external evaluation? Mrs. Mitchelson : It is Prairie Research Associa tes. Mr. Martindale: I have a document called "Taking Charge!": Strategic Initia tive Evaluation Framework and Request for Proposal dated January 19 97. By the way, it was not leaked to me; however, I will not tell you how I got it. Very interesting reading, I must say.

May 5, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 2585 There is an evaluation component in it. I am wondering if this is the same evaluation that Prairie Research is doing or whether their evaluation is different? Mrs. Mitchelson: If my honourable friend would like to share the document with me, we could compare it. I have no way of knowing whether it is the same, unless I know what the document is about. Mr. Martindale: I would not want to appear too co operative with this mini ster, but as long as she assures me that she will return it, I will certainly give it to her. Mrs. Mitchelson: Absolutely.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Faurschou): Is it the wish of the member for Burrows to have this document tabled and available for duplication? Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, I think it would probably be better if I tabled it than have a private arrangement with the minis ter. So, yes, I will table it. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Faurschou): Thank you. Mrs. Mitchelson: I certainly will undertake to get it back to my honourable friend as soon as we possibly can.

So we will be having a copy of it made, and then if we could take a little bit of time to look at the document, we might be able to indicate whether it is the same evaluation as Prairie Research is doing. Mr. Martindale: I guess, I just need to know-it certainly will not take long to photocopy-when or under what line I can ask the minister questions so that her staff are here. Mrs. Mitchelson: If we want to discuss this under Employment and Income Assistance, Making Welfare Work, that would be probably the most appropriate, and then that would give us a bit of time to look at it and get the answers.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Faurschou): Item 9. 1 .(

f) Policy and Planning

(1) Salaries and Employee Ben efits $772, 000-pa ss;

(2) Other Expenditures $1 76,900. Mr. Martindale: I see there is a small item here, Grants and Transfer Payments, I believe it is $1 5,000. Can the minis ter tell me what these grants are for? * (1 530 ) Mrs. Mitchelson : That is a $1 5,000 grant to the Vanier Institute of the Family that we have committed to. They do research on the family and publi cations periodically. Mr. Martindale: It is not often that I commend the government on the record. Our caucus was lobbied as well about supporting a grant to the Vanier In stitute, and we said that we would support it.

I am glad to see that this min ister did as well. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Faurschou): Item 9. 1. Administration and Finance (

f) Policy and Planning

(2) Other Expenditu res $1 76,9 00-pa ss. Item 9. 1. Admini stration and Finance (

g) Financial and Admini strative Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1 ,749,900. Mr. Martindale: I would like to ask the minis ter some questions regarding Public Acc ounts, Volume 2, and Public Accounts, Volume 1, Financial Statements for the Consoli dated Fund. I guess I am beginning with Volume 1. I do not know if the minis ter's staff have these here, but it probably does not matter, they will be aware-or I would be happy to share my copy with the minis ter that the way Public Accou nts shows expenditure is different than the Estimates book.

For example, I have in front of me-l guess this would be the most recent one for the year ended March 31 , 19 97, on pages 4-29, under Family Services, the first category being Adminis tration and Finance, there are a number of categories, and there is a total, and, of course, there are dollar figures beside each category. The only number that corresponds with the Estimates book is the total for Adminis tration and Finance. None of the other categories are the same as the Estimates book.

The problem that this raises and the question that it poses is: how is it possible to compare the Estimates book for the fiscal year and Volume 1 of Fin ancial

2586 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 5, 19 98 Statements-and I would say it is impossible because the categories are different-and therefore how is it possible to hold the government accountable for their spending? In this case, we are talking about $7,6 15 ,900 in Adminis tration and Finance. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Faurschou): The honourable minis ter, could you introduce to the comm ittee the staf f member now joining you? Mrs. Mitchelson: Sheila Lebredt has joi ned us. She is the acting director of Financial and Admini strative Services.

Ifi might indicate to my honourable friend that I have a feeling we discu ssed this last year in Estimates, did we or was it? [i nterjection] Not discussed. This might have been an issue that was raised last year through the Estimates process, and I think I might have given some advice to my honourable friend. Public Ac counts is produced by the Department of Finance right across government, and it is an indic ation of actual expenditures by appropriation. What you are probably seeing in the Estimates book is an estimate of expenditures for this year's budget.

So it is a format that is developed by the Department of Finance, and my advice to my honourable friend, if he is having dif ficulty sort of following the two different formats or comparing the two, would be to have him write to the Min ister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) and seek his com ments on why or ask-I mean, I think there is a commit tee that deals with Public Accounts that sits either during session or between sessions. That might be an appropriate time to ask the Minis ter of Finance, or just a letter to him.

There might be a very simple explanation, but that might be the appropriate place to ask that question. Sometimes the Department of Finance has its reasons for printing things in a certain format, and he would be the most appropriate minis ter, or in his Estimates, possibly, ask that question and find out the reason or the rationale. Mr. Martindale: Well, I certainly could raise it either by going to Public Acc ounts comm ittee or writing to the Minis ter of Finance, but I would like to suggest that in this committee it is impossible for me to do my job.

I would point out that, under Income Sec urity and Regional Operations, we are talking about $391 mill ion in the last fiscal year. So how can I hold this minis ter in this comm ittee accountable for the expenditure of a huge amount of money when the categories in Public Ac counts are different from the categories in the minis ter's Estimates book? You know, I know the minister might want to repeat her answer, but I am wondering, then, if this mini ster is willin g to talk to the Minis ter of Finance (Mr.

Stefanson) and, on behalf of the taxpayers of Manitoba, improve the accountabi lity of this department and this minis ter and her spending, which is considerable. Mrs. Mitchelson: I think that, if my honourable member took a look at the An nual Report for the Department of Family Services, certainly the questions that he could ask and the way he could hold this minister accountable would be to look at the actuals in the annual report versus the Estimates. Right there, then, you would see whether we were overspent or underspent in each line, and questions could be asked appropriately. Mr.

Martindale: Is this min ister will ing to raise this issue with her col league the Minis ter of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) and see if he is will ing to change Public Accou nts reporting, so that it is in line with the Estimates of the Department of Fa mil y Services, or conversely, I suppose, is she willi ng to change the categories in her Estimates book to correspond with Volume I of Public Accounts? Mrs. Mitchelson: As I already indica ted, our annual report spells out very clearly what is estimated and what is expended in any given year.

So I would indi cate to my honourable friend that there is the appropria te vehicle to ask about the issue of Public Acc ounts, and that is through the Public Acc ounts commit tee or through the Minis ter of Finance's Estimates. The other option, of course, would be to write to the Minis ter of Finance, and I would certainly appreciate a copy of his letter. Mr. Denis Rocan, Ac ting Chairperson, in the Chair Mr. Martindale: Obviously, the minister is not will ing to improve her accountability or change the way she

May 5, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 258 7 does things, so I would like to ask about the special warrants. There were three in the fiscal year ending March '97. The first one, under Income Security and Regional Operations, was a special warrant for $3 ,984,900. Could the minis ter tell me what that was for? * (1 540) Mrs. Mitchelson: For cl arification, what year are we talking about? Mr. Martindale: The fiscal year ending March 31, 19 97. Mrs. Mitchelson: I am informed we have the 19 97-98 special warrant information here, but we do not have the '96-97. We could get that and provide it. Mr.

Martindale: Could the minis ter also provide for me at a future meeting of the Comm ittee of Supply, then, the expenditure under Child and Family Services under special warrant of $3 ,1 29,400. There is another one under-1 guess that is it. I guess there are two, and she can report at a future meeting of this committee. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Rocan): Item 9. 1. Admini stration and Finance (

g) Financial and Adminis trative Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1 ,749, 900- pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $53 0,700. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, the min ister might remember from last year questions that I had about the way United Way agencies presented their financial statements. My concern was that there were cons iderable sums of money given, I guess, in grants, perhaps grants and per diems to agencies, and some of them were not acknowledging under revenue that the source was the Province of Manitoba. The minis ter agreed with my concern and said that she would write or contact the United Way and that reporting would be changed. I am wondering if the minis ter can tell me what resulted.

Did United Way agree to talk to their member agencies about their financial statements? Mrs. Mitchelson: As a result of the discu ssions last year we did have a conversation with the United Way. They are still reviewing it and they have not got back to us. Mr. Martindale: Well, I am disappoin ted that the United Way would not act more expeditiously. A year is a long time. Certainly they could have notified all their member agencies that in their next annual report, under their financial statements, that they should acknowledge the government of Manitoba as their source of income.

I think we are probably only talking about a small number of the many agencies that belong to United Way. I have a similar question. I recently requested a copy of the annual report of the Knowles Centre, and I do not want to criticize the Knowles Centre, I am just going to use them as an example. I know that the Knowles Centre is near and dear to the minister's heart. I have been to their annual meetings and their family fun day, and I think they are doing a good job.

However, for their financial statement highlights for the year ended March 31 , 19 97, which was what they sent to me-l guess their '98 financial statement would be available at their annual meeting, which I think is coming up in June-but for the fiscal year ended March 31 , 19 97, it says, revenue, residential care $2,240, 101; and other $33 0,000. Now, my guess is that a substantial amount of that money, probably the vast majority of that money, comes from the Province of Manitoba. I know there may be federal government money.

My guess is that probably 99 percent of their funding is from government, and yet there is no acknowledgment of this in the annual report that I received. Now, it does say

schedule 1, and probably if I had a copy of their detailed financial statements, which is not in the annual report that I received, there may be an acknowledgment of the government sources of funding and maybe even by department. But I am wondering if the minis ter is willi ng to review not just the Knowles Centre, I am just using that as an example, but all of the agencies that are funded by the Department of Family Services, because there are milli ons of dollars going out to external agencies, and I think the minis ter should look at all of their financial

2588 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 5, 19 98 statements and make sure that all of them acknowledge that the Province of Manitoba is one of their funders under their income statement. I think it would also be appropriate if they acknowledge how much money is from the Department of Family Services in addition to other departments. Is the minis ter willing to do that? Mrs. Mitchelson: My honourable friend makes a good point. It is always nice to get credit as a government for supporting things that are happening in our province.

I would venture to guess that there are certainly more than one department of government that funds or supports Knowles Centre. I know the Department of Education has a signifi cant role to play, as does our department. I do not know if there are any other departments, but I will certainly undertake to review the agencies that are funded through my department and see whether it is appropriate or feasible to have that kind of reporting. Mr. Martindale: I thank the minister for promising to undertake that. I would say that it is entirely appropriate and feasible to do that.

I have some other financial statements here. The Manitoba League of, well, formerly the Physically Handicapped Inc. acknowledges the Province of Manitoba Department of Family Services, the Secretary of State of Canada, Thomas Sill Foundation; St. Amant Centre acknow ledges the Province of Manitoba, Northwest Territories and others; Marymound actually itemizes the Province of Manitoba under grants, low incidence funding, and per diem, and then in another category it says Family Services.

So we know that some agencies are providing very specific acknowledgment, and there is no reason why all of them not only can but should. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Rocan): Item 9. l .(

g) Financial and Admin istrative Services

(2) Other Expenditures $530, 700-pas s. Item 9. 1. Administration and Finance (

h) Information Systems

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, under Information Systems, it says that they will continue to refine the way the department manages and utilizes information technology. So I would like to ask the minis ter about their outsourcing agreement with, I believe, IBM. Well, first of all, could the minis ter confirm what compa ny has the contract for the outsourcing agreement? Mrs. Mitchelson : Mr. Chairperson, before I answer that question, I would like to introduce Brian Konopski who is our Director of Information Systems. It is IBM that has the contract. Mr.

Martindale: Could the minis ter tell us what year the contract was signed? Mrs. Mitchelson : The arrangement that was developed with IBM was started in November 19 95. Mr. Martindale: Could the minis ter tell me why the government went to an outsourcing agreement and how much the contract is worth, I guess on an annual basis, or is it an ongoing basis? * (1 55 0) Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, there certainly are some min isters who might be more technological ly astute than I am, so I am going to try really hard to help my honourable friend understand what we are doing.

The contract that we have with IBM is for approximately $1. 3 million per year for outsourcing, and it fluctuates slightly. But what we are outsourcing is the management of the department's technical resources, including hardware, software and local wide area networks and providing a single point of contact help desk for staff who use the department's different information systems. So that is basically what we are outsourcing. Mr. Martindale: How much was your department spending on computers before this IBM contract, which presumably would have been mostly purchase of equipment and staff time, staff years? Mrs.

Mitchelson: It is my understanding that a signifi cant amount of new resource would have been required to maintain the programs and upgrade the programs and the systems internally to meet the demands of the new technological era that we are in and, therefore, rather than expanding and hiring more staff internally, the best option was to go to outsourcing this. We get better value for our dollar by outsourcing

May 5, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 258 9 this kind of work so that the staff internally can ensure that they are doing the kinds of activities that are needed to keep our programs up and running and meeting the needs of the clients that we serve. An Honourable Member: Good answer. Mr. Martindale: I hope you realize you are not supposed to comment on the record. I hope Hansard did not pick that up. Good. Mr. Impartial Chairperson, I would like to ask the minis ter, she said that the contract was worth $1. 3 milli on a year, but it also fluctuates somewhat. What does fluctuates somewhat mean? Mrs.

Mitchelson: I am informed that it could fluctuate to as low as $1 mil lion, but the maximum is $1. 3 milli on on a yearly basis. I guess it just depends on what activities need to be undertaken in any given year, how much training is required, whether there is moving of equipment from one place to another to meet the demand. Mr. Martindale: Could the minis ter tell me how this contract relates to the Systemhouse contracts or whether there is any relationship? Mr. David Faurschou, Ac ting Chairperson, in the Chair Mrs.

Mitchelson: I am informed that in 19 95 this was a prearrangement before the desktop initiative, which is Systemhouse. So this happened prior to the desktop initiative, and we are now in the process of looking at what the timing would be to merge with the desktop initiative. Mr. Martindale: Does this mean that the Department of Family Services is also going to purchase services for the desktop initiative from Systemhouse? Mrs. Mitchelson: At some point in time we will be part of the desktop initiative. We are in the process now of determining when that will be. Mr. Martindale: Will there be a cost to that? Mrs.

Mitchelson: There will be a cost, but we are in the process right now of determining what that cost might be. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, I would like to ask the minister if she has an estimate of how much that cost might be, even an approximate cost. Mrs. Mitchelson: We are not that far into the process now to be able to give any estimate even of what that might be. * (1 600) Mr. Martindale: Could the minis ter tell me if there were staff from her department who left the Department of Family Services to go to work for IBM, staff who used to do computer work in the department and left to go to IBM? Mrs.

Mitchelson: There is no one who went from our department to IBM. Mr. Martindale: Is anyone going from your department to Systemhouse, or have there been any who left to go to Systemhouse? Mrs. Mitchelson: There were six departmental staff who went to Systemhouse from the Department of Family Services. Mr. Martindale: Were there any staff who went to any other compu ter companies? Mrs. Mitchelson: There were seven people from the department who left for private sector opportunities, six to Systemhouse and one to another small compu ter company. Mr.

Martindale: Can the minis ter tell me for what length of time was the IBM contract? Is it a one-yea r renewable or five years? What is the length of the contract? Mrs. Mitchelson : The arrangement was an initial three-year term with an option to extend for an additional two years. Mr. Martindale: I notice in the annual report that there is a separate system for Child and Family Services called CFSIS. Is that still in place? Mrs. Mitchelson : Yes.

2590 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May 5, 19 98 Mr. Martindale: Are there any plans to change that system to some other system? Mrs. Mitchelson: We are continually trying to ensure that it is updated, and it will be part of our Better Systems ini tiative. You will have to excuse me, Mr. Chairperson. When we get into the technical questions around computerization, I do not have the expertise.

I do not know if in this instance my honourable friend would like to hear from the experts who work on the technical side of things, so that maybe we both gain a clearer understanding of what is happening technologically within the department, or I can attempt to answer questions. Mr. Martindale: I will ask the min ister to answer the questions. There were not very many more, and I am sure she has expert advice beside her here at the table. Could the minister clarifY ifCFSIS is going to change to desktop, I think she said? Does that mean that they are getting new hardware? What does this mean? Mrs.

Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, desktop is replacing the hardware, and at some point in time, the Child and Family Services Information System, CFSIS, will require new hardware. But the program itself has some very good qualities and very good applications that might be adapted into case management throughout the department. So we will continue to try to make CFSIS the best that it can be and adapt some of its good qualities and some of the case management applications for Better Systems. Mr.

Martindale: I am glad the mini ster came back with the word "hardware," because I thought I meant "software." If my son heard these questions or read them in Hansard, he would be appalled at his father's ignorance. So the minister is not the only one here with a problem. However, on a serious note, what will be the cost of replacing the hardware? You said at some point, it will need replacing. What is that going to cost? Mrs. Mitchelson : We are just in the process of determining what will be required for integrated case management which we are embarking upon through our Better Systems initiative.

So we are in the process of determining that. We all know that from time to time, even in our own homes with compu ters, the hardware needs to be replaced and updated and upgraded, and that will be continued and will be required in govern ment as it is in business as we move forward and there is new application of technology. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, when the minis ter says "case management," is she talking about staff in the department, for example, in Health and Family Services in the regions and Child and Family Services agency staff? What do you mean by case management?

Are we talking about families and chil dren as cases? * (1610 ) Mrs. Mitchelson : Really what we are looking at is a way to better serve the cl ients that we serve and have workers within different program areas within our department have access to, in a holistic way, the family or cl ients that we serve, and maybe if I could give an example that might help.

They presently have a family that is on social allowance, maybe a single mom with a disabled child that would need special needs daycare, but that single parent may be moving into some training programs that we might provide through our association with training and income assistance. So we would wartt to be able to ensure that we had information available that could help her access different programs, rather than having each program work independently of each other.

So if you wanted to ensure that she could access child care in her commun ity so that she had the ability to go into a training program and receive the kind of support that she might need through income assistance, we could have all of that information available on one file so that you are not having to go into different programs to serve a family in several different ways. So it is integrated case management, better service for the client, easier for those that are delivering the programs to support those families that need our support. Mr.

Martindale: I think I understand what the minister is saying, but maybe I can explain where I am going here. We began with the IBM contract, which is mentioned in the annual report on page 18 , so the minister answered my questions on that. Then I asked

May 5, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 2591 questions about Systemhouse, and we found out that, yes, the department will be taking

part in the desktop initia tive. So both of those have to do with the Department of Family Services. So then I went to the bottom of page 18 where it says: continued imple mentation of the Child and Family Services Inf ormation System, CFSIS, in private agencies and regional government offices. So my next line of questions had to do with computer systems and contracts in Child and Family Services agencies. I think I got lost some time after that, so maybe we can back up a little bit. Is the CFSIS system still being implemented or is it going to be changed to some other system? Mrs.

Mitchelson : Ultimately-I mean, CFSIS will continue to be used. The software for case management under CFSIS will be refined and updated and improved, but the case management applications under CFSIS will be enhanced through the integrated case management and better systems initiatives. Mr. Martindale: Now you have really lost me. Does this mean that there is going to be an upgrading of compu ter systems in Child and Family Services agencies? Mrs. Mitchelson: Ultimately, the software in the package for CFSIS, which is a case management tool, will be used because it has some really good capabilities.

But it may be improved or enhanced, and it will be a model for the integrated case management system that we are implementing throughout the department. Mr. Martindale: When I hear "improved" or "enhanced" I think I hear euphemisms. What I really want to know is: will there be the purchase of new software? Will there be the purchase of new hardware, and if so, how many units are we talking about here? A new computer on the desk of the staff of everyone in every Child and Family Services agency? Mrs. Mitchelson: I think I have got this.

Our Child and Family Services information system, the software will be used, but there may be new applications that come from time to time that, just like I guess every program, every software program, you might be able to add more information into it, but the applica tion, the Child and Family Services information system is the application we will continue to use.

Right now, government has embarked upon a desktop initiative which says that the hardware, not the software, has to be a certain standard within govern ment, and any new equipment that is being purchased throughout government meets that standard for desktop. As we replace old computers with new, they will have to meet that standard, and that will be on a scheduled, phased-in basis over the next period of time. That is the hardware.

What we are talking about with CFSIS is the software, and that applica tion is a good example of what integrated case management could look like throughout the department to share program information from one branch to another. Mr. Martindale: Can the minis ter tell me if the purchase of hardware by Child and Family Services agencies is something that they do out of their budget? Mrs. Mitchelson: That is something that we pay for, and we gave them more money specifically for a computer purchase last year. Mr.

Martindale: But at this time the minister does not know how much it is going to cost to buy new computers or upgrade the system? Mrs. Mitchelson: I indica ted we were exploring getting into the desktop initiative. We are not into it yet as the Department of Family Services. We are still doing the analysis, but any new computer hardware that is bought is bought meeting the desktop standards. We are still doing the analysis and trying to determine when we will be fully integrated into desktop management, but in the interim any new equipment that we purchase meets those standards. Mr.

Martindale: When the IBM contract expires, will there be a switch to Systemhouse? Mrs. Mitchelson: That has not been fully determined yet, but more than likely. Mr. Martindale: So is this mini ster's department already negotiating with Systemhouse to sign a contract with them?

2592 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 5, 19 98 * (16 20) Mrs. Mitchelson: The contract with Systemhouse is a central government contract, so we do not do our own negotiations with Systemhouse. There is a central government process for that to happen. Mr. Martindale: Would this minister know how much the contract would be worth, even though it is being negotiated somewhere else in government? Mrs. Mitchelson: No, I do not know that information. It certainly has not been determined yet for the Department of Family Services because we are not into the desktop system yet. Mr.

Martindale: The money would be coming from the Department ofFa mily Services, but would any of it be coming out of this fiscal year that we are debating? Mrs. Mitchelson: We do not have any money specifically in this year's budget in the Department of Family Services for the desktop initiative. We are in the process of negotiations and, I guess, ongoing discussions. We are not down to anything concrete at this point in time.

If, in fact, decisions were made that we were to move before the end of the fiscal year, we would either have to find the money within our technology budget in the Department of Family Services to start that move. There may have been money alloca ted to some other department within government that is not using their resources that may be reallo cated to Family Services, but we have not budgeted specifically for the desktop initiative this year in our budget. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Faurschou): Item 9. l .(

h) Information Services (

l) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1 ,429,00 0-p ass; l. (h)

(2) Other Expenditures $683 ,300 -pass. The hour being 4:25 p.m., is it the will of the commi ttee to take a short recess? [agreed] The committee will take a 15 -m inute recess at this time. The committee recessed at 4:25 p.m. After Recess The committee resumed at 4:46p.m. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Faurschou): I call this committee back to order. We are now considering item 9.2. Employment and Income Assistance (

a) Client Services ( 1) Salary and Employee Benefits $1 1 ,793,600. Mrs. Mitchelson: I would just like to introduce the new staff at the table: Gisela Rempel, Assistant Deputy Minis ter, Employment and Income Assistance; Grant Doak, Employment and Income Assistance Policy Co ordinator; and, Dan Haughey, Executive Director for Welfare Reform. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Faurschou): Welcome to the committee. Mr. Martindale: I almost thought you said welcome to the game, but I think you must have said table.

Just so that the minis ter and her staff know where I am going here, I have some questions about contracts, first of all, with the Manitoba Dental Associa tion and the Manitoba Funeral Services Assoc iation, but the majority of my time is going to be spent on the one tier system and Taking Charge! and the child tax benefit. Could the minister tell me if a new agreement has been signed with the Manitoba Dental Association, since, I believe, the last agreement has expired? The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Faurschou): I would like to draw the attention of the honourable member for Burrows (Mr.

Martindale) that, in fact, we must proceed in consi deration of items of Commi ttee of Supply line by line. It has been drawn to my attention that this particula r question of dental falls under the Income Assistance Programs which we have yet to address. Is it the will of the committee to consider it at this time and to skip ahead to the line 2.(

b) Income Assistance Programs? * (1 650) Mrs. Mitchelson : I might ask my honourable friend whether there are any questions under Client Services, Salaries and Employee Benefits or Other Expenditures?

May 5, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 2593 Maybe we could pass that and move on to Income Assistance Programs and deal with any issues under (

b) in 1 and then pass (b). Mr. Martindale: I was going to do the one tier welfare system overpayment recovery under 2.(a), if this is agreeable. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Faurschou): We will then ask the question on item 9.2. Emplo yment and Income Assistance (

a) Cli ent Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1 1 ,793 ,600-pa ss;

(2) Other Expenditures $4,60 2, 1 00-pass. Item 9.2.(

b) Income Assistance Programs

(1) Employment and Income Assistance $206, 053 ,300. Mr. Martindale: Can the minis ter tell me if she is making any progress in negotiations with the Manitoba Dental Association? Mrs. Mitchelson: Effective September 1 of 19 97, we reached an agreement through a letter of understanding with the Manitoba Dental Association for dental services for income assistance cl ients. That letter of understanding provides for fees to dentists for 70 percent, 75 percent and 80 percent in three consecutive years of the 19 97 MDA fee guide.

This also includes a provision to increase the annual restorative limit for adults from $300 to $400 in the second year. Mr. Martindale: Is a letter of understanding the same as signing a contract? Mrs. Mitchelson: My understanding is it is, in essence, the same thing, that the Manitoba Dental Association cannot enforce a contract or a letter of understanding with their membership, but they have agreed to the terms of the letter of understanding. Mr.

Martindale: Could the minis ter tell us if there is still a problem with some dentists, particula rly in The Pas, not providing service to income assistance cli ents? Mrs. Mitchelson: It is my understanding that the dentists in The Pas have withdrawn their services and continue to withdraw their services, but they are doing emergency services. So that means that we are having to transport those who require regular service to other communities for that service, and there are other dentists who are doing that regular work. Mr.

Martindale: Can the mini ster tell me if anything is being done to enco urage the dentists who are not providing service to provide the service since my understanding is that the alternative is that income assistance patients are being sent to Flin Flon, and, presumably, there is consid erable cost associated with that. Mrs. Mitchelson: It is a fee dispute, and there are other dentists throughout the province that refuse to provide this service to our cl ients, and we do not have the ability to force them to do that.

So, yes, there is some cost to transport people to Flin Flon, but we are not going to get involved in the fee dispute. If there are dentists who are willing to provide that regular service, we will find those dentists who will do it. We are not prepared to make an exception in the instance of The Pas where the dentists have refused, but they are continuing to provide emergency services. Mr. Martindale: I have the memorandum of agreement between the government of Manitoba and the Manitoba Funeral Services Association. I notice it was signed in May '97, but the contract runs from October 1, '96, to March 31, '98.

Can the minis ter tell me why it took so long to sign this contract? Mrs. Mitchelson: We were in negotiations with them and it took us that long to come to an agreement, but we made the agreement retroactive to the time of the start of the negotiations. Mr. Martindale: We have received compl aints from individ uals on social assista

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-4-42
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 4th hansardpdf 42.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	f26e86e41573db62ef4bc998196393a3c8e1225b

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