ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba STANDING COMMITTEE on PRIVILEGES and ELECTIONS 31-32 Elizabeth 11 Chairman Mr. A. Anstett Constituency of Springfield VOL. XXXI No. 6 - 3:00 p.m., THURSDAY, 18 AUGUST, 1983. Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer, Provmce of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Andy ASHTON, Sieve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. {Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Hon. Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER,Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon. Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA,Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. AI MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER,Hon.Wc SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Boniface Aiel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Vir den Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Cha rleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Glad stone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Os borne River Heights Flin Flon lnterlake Lac du Bonnet St.

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LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA THE STANDING COMMI TTEE ON PRIVILEGES AND ELECTIONS Thursday, 18 August, 1983 TIME - 3:00 p.m. LOCATION - Legislative Building, Winnipeg, Manitoba CHAIRMAN - Mr. Andy Anstett (Springfield). ATTENDANCE - QUORUM - 6 Members of the Committee present: Hon. Messrs. Penner and Storie Messrs. Anstett, Brown, Graham, Harper, Nord man, Sh erman, Lecu yer, Santos and Harapiak. MATTERS UNDER DISCUSSION: Proposed amendments to Mani toba's Constitution with respect to French Language Services. MR. CHAIRMAN: Meeting come to order. I understand our recording equip ment is now in operation.

The pur pose of th is com mittee is to discuss the organizational requirements of our scheduled hearings on the constitutional amendment proposal to

Section 23 during the month of Septemb er. For the benefit of committee members, I think I should report that several committee mem bers met this morning to discuss informally and briefly some of the considerations, and it might be appropriate to ask Mr. Penner to report on that informal meeting. Mr. Penner. HON. R. PENNER: Do you have a proposed agenda, Mr. Chairp erson? Maybe we should do it on an agenda­ item basis. MR. CHAIRMAN: I have a list of six items to be discussed. If members wish to make a note of them, I'll read them off.

Locations; dates; advertising; transportation of members and staff and equipment; accommodation; and contacting the list of delegations, since all of them filed not knowing where the locations would be. Mr. Sherman. MR. L. SHERMAN: Excuse me, Mr. Penner. Would you add one other item to that agenda. and that is the method by which we're going to accommodate the rotating memberships on the committee. MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, sorry, I left that off. MR. H. GRAHAM: What was the one you had after travel? 47 MR. CHAIRMAN: Accommodation, contacting the list of delegations, and resignations and substitution.

Any further adddi tions to the agenda? Mr. Penner. HON. R. PENNER: Speaking then to the first point, without elabo ration, I would like to propose that the eight locations be as follo ws: Winnipeg, Thompson, Swan River, Ste. Rose, Brandon, Arborg, Ste. Anne, Morden. I would simply say I think that we get into the major geographical areas; the North, the Parklands, lnterlake, south west, southe ast. We have, I think, appropriately two Franco ph one areas, although by no means exclusively such. MR. CHAIRMAN: Any further di scussion? Mr. Sherman. MR. L. SHERMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr.

Graham and I took these suggestions to our caucus. Our caucus agrees with the regional selection; that is, the choice of regions for representation, but doesn't agree with the specific local sites in all cases. Our caucus proposes, Mr. Chairman, that those sites be Winnipeg, Thom pson, Swan River , Daup hin, Brandon, Gimli, Ste. Anne and Morden. In other words, we agree with six of the sites proposed by the Honourable Attorney-General; Winnipeg, Thompson, Swan River, Brandon, Morden and Ste. Anne.

The other two, the lnterlake siting and the Parklands siting, are the two on which we disagree, and our proposals are Dauphin instead of Ste. Rose for Parklands, and Gimli instead of Arborg for lnterlake. I am sure that if you want any ela boration on that, Mr. Graham or I can speak to that. I would defer it to Mr. Graham. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Graham. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, this again is pursuant to preliminary discussions we had this morning.

We heard some talk of a possible aircraft go ing to Thompson and there is an airport at Swan River, if an aircraft is going to be used, so that there is an airport there. I doubt if you can get in with a DC-3. The other thing is that Dauphin does have all of the facilities that would be required. You have a good comm unication system there. There is an airport if you're using an aircraft. If you're using an aircraft and fly to Dauphin and then drive from there to Ste.

Rose, it does seem to be an extra additional cost tha t we don't think would be - well, it's not a significant matter - it is a matter that we felt should be considered. I should point out that in the past, Dauphin has always been considered to be a regional area whenever legislative commi ttees have met and people begin to expect to go to Dauphin for those types of meetings.

Thursday, 18 August, 1983 The other thing, on the question of Arborg, the Legislature, I believe, with the Crow debate, did go to Arborg. From what I am told, they felt that if it was held in the larger centre of Gimli there would probably be greater representation. Those were the suggestions that were brought to our attention. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Graham. Further discussion? Mr. Penner. HON. R. PENNER: Well, as I said, I don't want to elaborate. I will simply, for the record, restate some of the considerations which led us to propose Ste.

Rose and Arborg in addition to those upon which there is already agreement. Let me say, I'm gratified that there is agreement on the six at this point. I did feel, as I mentioned in committee this afternoon, that a second area, identifiably Francophone, was warranted in the circumstances.

The proposal, of course, is one which deals with French language rights, and it seems to us it would be inappropriate not to have at least two of the hearings, and two out of six is not disproportionate in identifiably Francophone areas. lt can be said, although it cannot in itself be a major argument, that one of the public meetings was in Dauphin. I realize that in itself is not a persuasive or conclusive argument because publ ic meetings were also held in Winnipeg, Thompson and in Brandon, but it's the first consideration which leads us to suggest Ste. Rose.

The Arbo rg suggestion looked at the location in lnterlake in terms of the fact that there was also to be major parts of the hearing in Winnipeg. The relative proximity of Gimli to Winnipeg, I know driving to Hecla, once you get past Gimli, you're already in a sense in a new physically distinct or geographically distinct area, and that is an impor tant part of the province which ought to have a relatively convenient way of bringing their concerns to the attention of the committee. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any further discussion? Mr. Lecuyer. MR. G.

LECUYER: I would like to reinforce that, especially in relation to Ste. Rose, not only, I think, that it gives access to other comm unities around, but to reinforce the point that to have a second community where we can give an opportunity as well as to the Metis or Native or other groups in the area, it is put in the centre where there are some Francophones, and I think it's only fair that on this particular question that that be taken heavily into consideration. I don't think it is too much to ask or to expect. HON. R.

PENNER: Perhaps to focus the discussion, I would move that the eight locations be Winnipeg, Thom pson, Swan River, Ste. Rose, Brandon, Arborg, Ste. Anne and Morden. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Penner, I took it that your original suggestion was in the effect of a motion, and that Mr. Sherman moved an amend ment to that motion to 48 substitute Dauphin for Ste. Rose and Gimli for Arborg. Procedural ly, then . . . HON. R. PENNER: I accept that . MR. CHAIRMAN: . . . unless we can come to a consensus, what I should do is ask for the committee to decide whether or not the amendment proposed by Mr.

Sherman is acceptable to the committee. Are you ready for the question then on Mr. Sherman's amendment to substitute Dauphin for Ste. Rose and Arborg for Gimli? All those in favour of the amendment, please say aye. All those opposed, please say nay. In my opinion, the nays have it. The question on the main motion then, that the eight locations as listed by Mr. Penner. Mr. Sherman. MR. L. SHERMAN: Before we vote on the main motion, could I prop ose that th e committee consider a compromise? Obviously there are two sitings in which the two com ponent membership groups of the committee disagree.

Would the Government House Leader consider a compromise in settling on one that would be the government choice and one that would be the opposition choice? HON. R. PENNER: The Member for Fort Garry, of course, always has the habit of sounding eminently reasonable. That worries me. MR. L. SHERMAN: lt's only a habit. HON. R. PENNER: Because when he does that, it makes me come out sounding eminently unreasonable. We have really very carefully considered a whole number of factors that feed into the process. Mr.

Sherman has mentioned some of them that have to be considered, no doubt, but I think that on careful consideration, 1 would stick with the eight proposed. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any further discussion? Mr. Lecuyer. MR. G. LECUYER: I was just going to add that I presume that if there were six locations that we were agreed upon in the beginning, that meant that these six locations were jus t as much a choice of the opposition as they were tho se . . . MR. L. SHERMAN: No, no, it was in co-operation. MR. G. LECUYER: . . . as they were those of the government side. HON. R. PENNER: You see, he thinks faster than I do.

MR. G. LECUYER: Therefore, I hesitate to leave it on the record that on the basis of two locations, we are having our outright choice. I say that on the basis of six locations, we agree. Then the government side is proposing the final two of those locations. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any further discussion on the motion by Mr. Penner. I

Thursday, 18 August, 1983 Mr. Sherman. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, I just want to say that frankly I like the sights and sounds of Manitou, myself, but I am prepared to go with Morden to be co-operative. I would propose that the committee consider going with Ste. Rose and Gimli. That would be a compromise, but I don't intend to prolong the discussion. MR. CHAIRMAN: Further discussion? Hearing none, are we agreed to the main motion? (Agreed) MR. L. SHERMAN: I think we would want to register MR. CHAIRMAN: All those in favour of the main motion, as moved, for the eight locations moved by Mr. Penner, say aye.

All those opposed, say nay. Now there was also some discussion this morning, gentlemen, on dates to be at each location. Did you want to speak to that, Mr. Penner, or perhaps Mr. Sherman? HON. R. PENNER: Perhaps Mr. Sherman. MR. L SHERMAN: On da tes, Mr. Chairma n, the Government House Leader, Mr. Penner, proposed that the meetings be held commencing Tuesday, September 6th, on the following schedule: Tuesday, September 6th, through Friday, September 9th in Winnipeg, and we find that satisfactor y. This allows for three sittings per day, morning, afternoon and evening.

Mond ay, September 12th, starting at 10:00 a.m. in Thomp son; we have no difficulty with that, we accept that. From that point on we have difficulty with the proposed

schedule put forward by Mr. Penner which called, Mr. Chairman, for con tinuous day-by-day meetings. For example, Tuesday , September 13th, was to be Swan River; Wednesday, September 14th, Ste. Rose; Thursday and Friday, the 15th and 16th, Brandon; Monday the 19th, Ste. Anne; Tuesday the 20th, Arborg; and Wednesday the 21st, Morden, with the Thursday and Friday of that week, the 22nd and 23rd, held in reserve in case we needed some additional clean-up meetings in Winnipeg. it's that

section of the

schedule which we have difficulty with, and to which we register oppositio n, Mr. Chairman.

We believe that more time is needed and requi red between these hearings, not only for the possi bili ty of addit ional delegations req uir ing the opportunity to be heard, but also for travel time; also for reasonable personal comfort of commit tee mem bers; also to accommodate the kinds of rotations of membership on the committee that will be requir ed, the resignations and replacements; and also simply to provide the necessary time for the subject matter to be digested thoroughly in a way that doesn't smack of too much hu rry. So we propose a full day between each of those additional locale meetings.

We would propose that, for example, after Thompson on Monday 12th, we be looking at meetings in Swan River on Wednesday the 14th; in Ste. Rose on Friday the 16th; in Brandon on the following Monday and Tuesday, the 19th and 20th; 49 in Mo rden on Thursday and Friday, the 22nd and 23rd; in Arborg on the following Mond ay, the 26th; in Ste. Anne on Wednesd ay, the 28th and, if additio nal meetings are needed in Winnipeg we would hold them on Frid ay, September 30th, and if necessa ry, the Monday and Tuesday of the following week, October 3rd and 4th.

So what that does, Sir, is provide for a full day's break between the scheduled meetings in di fferent locales after the Thom pson meeting on Monda y, September 12, and it's for the reasons I specified a moment ago. MR. CHAIRMAN: Just one question, if I may, from the Chair, Mr. Sherman. Brandon was to be the . HON. R. PENNER: 19th and 20th. MR. L. SHERMAN: Brandon was Monday and Tuesday, the 19th and 20th. Then Wednesday would be a break, and Morden would be Thur sday and Friday, the 22nd and 23rd. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Is it your suggestion, although I realize we haven't got to this but it may bear on the discussion, that the committee would remain in each of these locales for the break day, in anticipation of additional briefs, or that the committee would return to Winnipeg? MR. L SHERMAN: If necessary, it would remain, but that would only be if it was indicated that delegations couldn't be accommodated on the first day and ... MR.

CHAIRMAN: But if we did accommodate all the delegations in Thompson, let's say, Monday morning and afternoon, your proposal would involve returning to Winnipeg Monday night and then leaving again for Swan Wednesday morning. MR. L SHERMAN: lt could, not necessarily. MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, I understand. I just want to get an understanding of the scheduling that's proposed. Mr. Graham. MR. H. GRAHAM: Just if I may, Mr. Chairman. I believe I've been on quite a number of travel ling delegations.

There's a tremendous amount of logistical work that has to be done in setting up all the equip ment and transporting all the equipment. If your hearings don't finish until 10:30 at night and you're slated to go and be at 10 o'clock the next morning in some place. For instance, going from Thompson to Swan River it's impossible to fly into Swan River that night, you must fly into Swan River in the daytime, the airport can only be used in the daytime. There is a tower that has been erected there which prevents night flying.

So, you're in a position where, to move in the daytime you couldn't possibly, it would be a very quick move to get from Thom pson to Swan River and be set up and ready to hold hearings by 10 o'clock the following morning. it's logistically almost impossible. You can't get into Swan River by air, except in the daytime. lt would mean that you would be taking off at 6:00 a.m. from Thompson and, if you're sitting until 10:30 at night, it takes an

Thursday, 18 August, 1983 hour-and-a-half to take all your equipme nt down, and it takes you another hour or hour-and-a-half to get out to the airport, so you're only going to get four hours of sleep before you take off. I suggest that it's just pushing the staff, as well as the members, in a

schedule that would just kill anybody. MR. CHAIRMAN: Further discussion? Mr. Penner. HON. R. PENNER: Well, I think we can certainly look at this and I'm sure we can come to some accommodation. I think Mr. Graham is right about the Thompson­ Swan thing.

At the back of my mind it's been my knowledge, that when our County Court Judge in Dauphin takes the Thom pson sittings, he has to go down to Winnipeg to get out to Thompson. lt's that kind of a problem. lt might be better, and I'm speaking here personally but we're certainly prepared to consider the notion - well the Winnipeg we are agreed, and Thom pson we are agreed for that as a date - come back to Winnipeg. I think we can all use the day at that junctu re, and then up to the Swan for the 14th. Let 's consider the logistics of Swan-Ste. Rose, so I leave that hanging for the moment.

I am just wondering why we couldn't - we're already in Brandon. Logical ly, would it not make sense to do Brandon-M orden as a unit similar ly, and then you have whatever day or days? You could do Arborg and Ste. Anne on consecutive days because you'd come back through Winnipeg presumab ly. What you might do there in the Arborg­ Ste. Anne package is perhaps have Ste. Anne as the second of them start at 2 o'clock of the follo wing day, rather than at 10:00? So I throw those things out for consideration as possibilities, but I would be supportive of the break between Thompson and the Swan.

I would be supportive of a break between Ste. Rose and the beginning of the Brandon-Morden sequence. I'd be supportive of a break of a day, I think, between the Brandon-M orden sequence and the Arborg-Ste. Anne sequence, but with the Arborg-Ste. Anne sequence, I think perhaps the way I suggested, it could be workable. MR. CHAIRMAN: Further discussion? Mr. Graham. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I think that when you look at the logistics, you may want to use air travel for Thomp son; you may want to use air travel for Swan. The rest of them, I suspect, you will be using road transportation.

Now the distance between Ste. Rose and Brandon or Ste. Rose and Winnipeg is roughly the same, and it's about a thr ee-and-a-half hour drive. To go from Brandon to Morden is a two-and-a-half hour drive. I have driven it on numerous occasions.

So if you're sitting in a commi ttee until 10:00 or 10:30 at night and you're planning on meeting the next morning at 10:00 a.m., you have the choice of rushing out of that meeting - and there's always the chance that members who are presenting briefs want to talk to a few people privately afterwards - so in all likelihood it is 11 o'clock before you leave, and you've got a two­ and-a-half hour drive that's going to get you into the 50 next community at 1:30, 2:00 a.m. in the morning. Either that or you stay in Brandon and you leave at 7:00 the next morning.

The staff are going to need another hour­ and-a-half on top of that to set up their equipment. So I don't think it is possible to move from one location to the other without having a day in-between for the accommodation of the staff and the members of the commi ttees. I have no objection to having, say, two or three days in Brandon in sequence, or four or five days in Winnipeg in sequence, but it's when you're moving from one location to anoth er, I think you need that one-day break. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Storie. HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairman, it's very difficult, I think, for all of us to make any rational decisions about logistics without a map in front of us and to get some idea. I was just wondering whether the dates that have been proposed might be rearranged and we might be able to arrange the dates with cities that are somewhat closer togeth er. MR. CHAIRMAN: I anticipated your concern, Mr. Storie, and I have road maps avail able for all members. HON. J. STORIE: Could I suggest a recess for a period? Would the committee be interested so that we can . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: How much of a recess would you like, Mr. Storie? HON. J.

STORIE: Ten minutes, if I can . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: A recess of 10 minutes has been suggested. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, you have noticed that I changed a sequence. You had suggested going from Brandon to Arborg. I think, to save travel time, it's better to catch Morden on the way - Brandon to Morden. MR. CHAIRMAN: You sugg ested Mo rden from Winnipeg rather than from Brandon. MR. H. GRAHAM: No, from Brandon. MR. CHAIRMAN: Oh, I see. Mr. Nordman. MR. Fl. NORDMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I think, if I gather what Mr. Penner says, we've got pretty well agreement on everything except going from Arborg to Ste. Anne.

If I'm not mistaken, that's the way I understood it. We had agreement on Winnipeg. You're quite happy with the date between Thompson and Swan River; you're happy with the date between Swan River and Ste. Rose; then to Brandon for two days; then from Brandon, a day between Brandon and Morden, then two days in Morden; then Arborg the following Monda y, I believe, the 26th. All you had suggested, Mr. Penner, was that we take Ste. An ne on the 27th. lt's a fair piece from Arborg to Ste. Anne, too. Now there again, I mean we're just missing one day. I think we've got agreement - I I

Thursday, 18 August, 1983 pretty well if this is what I understand Mr. Penner to say. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Storie has asked for a recess. I have to deal with that unless he wants to withdraw that request. He asked for a 10 minute recess. What is your will and pleasure? I have to deal with the recess motion. lt's the same as a motion for adjournment. MR. L. SHERMAN: We have no objection to a recess, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, committee is recessed until 3:35 p.m. RECESS MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee come to order. Mr. Penner. HON. R.

PENNER: I should preface my remarks saying that what our response will indicate is that we're trying, if at all possible, to leave the couple of days - two, three days - at the end for picking up anything in Winnipeg that was missed on the first go-round and ending, if at all possible, on the 30th of September . What I would like to propose for consideration is - now we agreed on the opening Winnipeg dates and on Thompson - that we do the Swan on the 14th and Ste. Rose on the 16th. So far, we're just being marvellously co-operative. That we also agree the 19th, 20th in . A MEMBER: Oho! I can't believe this! HON.

R. PENNER: Just listen to this! Brandon; 22nd, 23rd in Morden. A MEMBER: Oh no! HON. R. PENNER: Yes, I know. You know I'm real tough, but what we're suggesting here is that we believe that the number of people appearing, Arborg and Ste. Anne, and the logistics there suggest that we aim for and we would like to aim for the 26th, Arborg; 27th, Ste. Anne; then begin picking up the remnants in Winnipeg on the 28th. I would not be adverse to making that 2:00 o'clock on the 28th in Winnipeg if it's felt that Ste. Anne - well, Ste. Anne and Winnipeg are within a few minutes of each other.

So that's what we're proposing, almost identically to what you suggested. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Penner, if I can recap then, you're agreeing to the proposal by Mr. Sherman with the exception that the Ste. Anne meeting be moved from the 28th to the 27th, and that the days in reserve for Winnipeg would be the 28th, 29th and 30th instead of the 30th, 3rd and 4th. HON. R. PENNER: Right. MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Mr. Lecuyer. MR. G. LECUYER: I think what Mr. Penner is saying is that when he was saying about Arborg, or Ste. An ne, 51 basically what we said is, I think, that Arborg on the 26th and, if required, it could be Ste.

Anne starting at 2:00 in the afternoon rather than if that proved that logistically it was difficult that we thought perhaps that two sessions in Ste. Anne might cover. HON. R. PENNER: Okay, yes, I see that. MR. L. SHERMAN: So that on Tuesday, September 27th, the Ste. Anne meeting might not get under way till 2:00 in the afternoon? MR. G. LECUYER: That's right. MR. CHAIRMAN: Set it for 2:00 p.m. rather than for 10:00 a.m. MR. H. GRAHAM: And leave the 27th and 28th for Ste. Anne? HON. R. PENNER: No, just the 28th, two sessions, I think. MR. CHAIRMAN: You'd have the afternoon and evening. MR. G.

LECUYER: But it would leave us in the position, Mr. Chairman, where should there be a required additional time for Ste. Anne, that we could take part of the 28th and that would still leave us with the 28th, 29th and 30th. HON. R. PENNER: Or alternativ ely, given where Ste. Anne is, if there was by any chance anybody left over in Ste. Anne, they can come to Winnipeg. MR. G. LECUYER: That's right. We could have the leftover of Ste. Anne's, if there is, come to Winnipeg. A MEMBER: What do you think of that? A MEMBER: lt sounds good. MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm hearing "sounds good." I have Mr. Graham on the list. MR. H.

GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, dealing with Ste. Anne, I think it is pretty important to this committee. We have chosen Ste. Anne very specifically because it represents a Franco society in that area. I would suspect that we want to give them as much time as possible, so I would suggest that it's just for a difference of one day that we take the 27th and 28th for Ste. Anne, and 29th and 30th for Winnipeg. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Storie. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairman, I don't think that would be necessary. lt seems to me that while there is a good distance between Arborg and Ste.

Anne, I think that we would be able to make it back to the city and out to Ste. Anne by 10 o'clock on the 27th without undue hardship. I don't know whether the other committee mem bers agree, but I would suspect that our day will not be entirely filled in Arborg.

Thursday, 18 August, 1983 MR. CHAIRMAN: Gentlemen, if I can as Chairman take a lib erty, I recall that in the Crow committee, we met in Arborg on a Thur sday, in Morden on a Friday. Logistical ly, as I recall, that was not a problem for staff. Arborg and Ste. Anne are a much shorter distance apart, so the logistical problem wouldn't be there in terms of the staff. That's the only comment I can make from a technical point of view. Mr. Graham. MR. H. GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, I would not want to leave the imp ression that we were trying to close out the French commun ity from the presentations.

That's the main point I was making. MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, you're on record having made the point, Mr. Graham. Further discussion? Mr. Lecuyer. MR. G. LECUVER: I'll go with the suggestion you made and leave the whole day for Ste. Anne, starting at 10:00 a.mf I was forgetting anyway that we were starting at 10:00 a.m. I was thinking we're starting at 9:00 a.m. That's why I thought . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Is the proposal made by Mr. Sherman, amended by Mr. Penner just now, acceptable in lieu of Mr. Penner's original proposal? Would you like me to recap those dates? A MEMBER: Yes, please. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Winnipeg: 6th to 9th inclus ive; Thompson: 12th; Swan River: 14th; Ste. Rose: 16th; Brandon: 19th and 20th; Morden: 22nd and 23rd; Arborg: 26th - 10:00, 2:00 if necessary, 7:30 if necessary; Ste. Anne: 27th - 10:00, 2:00 if necessary, 7:30 if necessary. Any Winnipeg hearings or delegations we weren't able to hear in the first four days will be heard the 28th, if necessary the 29th, if necessary the 30th. Every day hearings to be 10:00 a.m., 2:00 p.m. and 7:30 p.m., as previously agreed. MR. L. SHERMAN: Good. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Clerk has a question.

Do we put the dates in-be tween as "if necessary" dates for the commun ities, or do we show them this blank? MR. R. NORDMAN: I thi nk th at would be just understood. MR. CHAIRMAN: That would be understood and we would announce it at the hearing only. Otherwise, we would get people registering to appear on the second day, and then we'd defeat our whole purpose. Agreed? (Agreed) The next item is advertising. In a quick discussion with the Clerk at noon today, together we drafted a gui ck ad based up on the Mu nicipal Assessment hearings, and the Crow hearings, follows that format.

She's distributing it now which will set out the basic information to be in the advertisements. Of course, the centre portion is blank, we can now fill that in. The 52 impor tant information is m1ssmg, but I would like approval from the committee on the text. Mr. Penner. HON. R. PENNER: I would suggest an addition, that a copy of the proposed amendment may be obtained by writing or phoning the Clerk. MR. CHAIRMAN: That would appear as a sentence at the beginning of the bottom paragraph, or at the end of the bottom paragraph? HON. R. PENNER: At the end. MR. CHAIRMAN: Could you word that please again?

Copies of the proposed amendment are available from the Clerk's office, as above. HON. R. PENNER: Well, I was thinking of it going in before the signature. Co pies of the proposed amendment are obtainable from the Clerk's office. MR. CHAIRMAN: Oh, as below, yes. HON. R. PENNER: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: Copies of the proposed amendment are available . . . HON. R. PENNER: From the Clerk's office. MR. CHAIRMAN: From the Clerk's office. Mr. Graham. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, would it not be advisa ble, when we're placing an ad anyway, to have the proposed amendment as part of the advertisement?

This is the subject matter that we are dealing with - to have it appear in the advertisement - and hearings will be held dealing with this subject matter at the various locations and times. MR. CHAIRMAN: I would mention, Mr. Graham, that in the Crow hearings we did discuss the merits of that and the cost information we received from the Clerk. lt was, at that point, unanimously decided by the committee to avoid doing that. lt's, of course, up to the committee but I offer that comment. Members may know that this amendment resolution is substantially longer than the Crow resolution. Mr. Graham. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, I don't think we have to list all the statutes that were the addendum to it, but I think the actual wording. On an issue that is so important, an amendment to the Constitution, I think it should appear in the advertisement so that people can read it and they know exactly what it is the committee is dealing with, because the misinformation that is probably follo wing the mocassin telegr aph, it's very impor tant that they get the correct information. HON. R. PENNER: Have we made a decision, or does anyone have a suggestion, as to how often this ad is going to appear? Are we talking about the ad being

Thursday, 18 August, 1983 publ ished one time with all of the information, because the cost is a product of . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Clerk advises that if we are doing the rural week lies, and I have assumed, as your Chairman, we will probably do an advertising campaign similar to that used for the last two travelling committees this year which consists of one or two insertions in all provincial dailies and one insertion in all rural weeklies. The Clerk now advises that considering the dates, at least for the second week of Septem ber, we could only get one insertion in rural weeklies.

The Clerk may also have information in terms of the timetabling and costs that might be involved in terms of the quantity of material if we had the resolution. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Storie. HON. J. STORIE: I appreciate what Mr. Graham is suggesting. Apart from the issue of the length and the cost that would be involved, I think that there is a difficulty in including simply the amendments that, if you follow that logic somewhat furt her, you are going to say that the Constitution itself should be there and some historical perspective, and then the amendments and their impli cations.

That simply putting something that is quite technical and, albeit very important, there does not really serve the purpose that Mr. Graham is seeking to serve. That, in fact, for most people, in fact most of us, it requires interpr etation at best.

So that I don't think we would actually be serving the purpose that we intend to serve by doing that, and I would say that those who are interested will have availed themselves of copies of the amendment and certainly the vast majority of organizations whom we will be hearing from will have already received information concerning the amendment, and probably copies of it and copies of comments from all parties on it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sherman. MR. L. SHERMAN: Well, I didn't want to rush Mr. Storie. HON. J. STORIE: I'm finished, thank you. MR. L. SHERMAN: Two points, Mr.

Chairman, first of all, relative to the subject introduced by Mr. Penner, which I think is very im portant, and I assumed we were going to come to that; that is, the number of insertions, the placing of those insertions. There was some dis cussion in th e small comm ittee, the Steering Commit tee this morning, or at noon, about placing these ads, these notices, in the dailies and the relevant community weeklies in advance of the meetings. it's the feeling of our caucus that I am instructed to convey to the committee, Mr.

Chairman, that these notices should be placed in all community weeklies in Manitoba, in every rural paper, the dailies and the community weeklies, not just those relevant to the meeting sites. MR. CHAIRMAN: If I may interrupt, Mr. Sherman, that has been our normal practice. There is a Community Newspaper's Association. I don't know that the ones that are part of the regular placement rota used by 53 the advertising aud office includes every single one, but it includes 57 of them. it's not a limited selection, it's the complete advertising audit list. lt may not include, you know, such and such Echo or something.

MR. L. SHERMAN: Good, well the second point has to do with the identification of the subject matter in a way that makes it very clear to the public, to the people who read those insertions, those advertising notices, that this is the issue that is being discussed and addr essed in these particular committee meetings. I support my colleague, Mr.

Graham in his suggestion because of the absolute necessity of making it clear to the public that the subject matter is this very imp ortant profound subject matter of this particular resolution. lt might be possible to do that simply by putting a fuller title or a fuller lead paragraph into the ad, than that which is proposed. For example, if one were to take the first operative "WHEREAS" paragraph out of the resolution itself, that makes the point that, "The Government of the Province of Manitoba has proposed a resolution to amend

Section 23 of The Manitoba Act, which amendment concerns the translation of the statutes of Manitoba, or some of them, and the question of government services in the French as well as the English language." That point perhaps could be incorpor ated into the ad without running the whole resolution. I appreciate Mr. Graham's point, and I think maybe we could reach a compromise that way. What Mr.

Graham is saying is that the subject matter has to be clearly identified, and perhaps the ad is a little vague on that, and without putting the whole resolution in there which would make for considerable verbiage and a very expensive ad, perhaps we could do it with just a paragraph of that kind. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sherman, if I can take it from you and the nods I'm seeing on the table, we have a consensus. The ad would, of course, have the provincial crest underneath it, Legislative Assembly.

Underneath that, the first "WHEREAS" of the referral resolution, followed by the existing text with the locations placed in the appropriate place with times and dates. HON. J. STORIE: Would you also need to include from there the second "WHEREAS," and then the "THEREFORE" and the meeting dates? MR. CHAIRMAN: Oh. Does it logically follow that the second "WHEREAS" would also be included? MR. L. SHERMAN: We could certainly do that; sure. MR. R. NORDMAN: But the rest of it is garbage. MR. L. SHERMAN: I wouldn't describe the rest of it as garbage. I want to dissociate myself. MR.

CHAIRMAN: it's on the record that the Member for Fort Garry dissociates himself from the comments of the Member for Assiniboia. MR. L. SHERMAN: We agree on most things, Mr. Chairman, but not on that.

Thursday, 18 August, 1983 MR. CHAIRMAN: The first two WHEREASES then, is that agreed? (Agreed) HON. R. PENNER: Nordman, somebody once said that history repeats itself. The first time is tragedy. The second time is farce. MR. CHAIRMAN: Gentlemen, the Clerk has raised with me the concern that if we add the second "WHEREAS," then technica lly we don't need the introductory paragraph. We can just say, "Meetings will be held on dates and at locations as foll ows," except we haven't said which committee then because the WHEREASES do not contain the name of the committee. HON. J.

STORIE: You incorporate it into the sitting. lt's the Standing Committee on ... HON. R. PENNER: lt's the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections. MR. CHAIRMAN: Will hold hearings on dates and at locations as follows. "The Standing Commi ttee on Privileges and Elections will hold hearings on dates and at locations as follows." Is everyone clear on what we're putting in the ad? (Agreed) The next item then is the timetable of the advertising. Mr. Penner. HON. R.

PENNER: May I suggest that Carmen, on the basis of this, prepare a draft and circulate it in case we did not make ourselves sufficiently clear or in looking at it there is some . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Gentlemen, I was going to suggest at the end of the meeting that all of the agreements that we come to tod ay, such as the locations and everything else, be laid out by the Clerk as soon as possible together with the draft of the ad and the advertising

schedule and circulated to all mem bers, if possible, as early as tomo rrow. I don't think the Clerk can do it today. HON. J. STORIE: Why not this evening? MADAM CLERK, Ms. Carmen DePape: No, I think I want to do it today. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Clerk says she wants to do it tod ay, so you may get it today. But I was going to hope that all of this could be summarized so that as your Chairman, I would know I had your concu rrence, to go ahead with all of those activities with the Clerk, over the next two weeks. Mr. Graham. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, in reading some of the text of this where it says, "Ind ividuals or organizations wishing to appear may register with the Clerk at the telephone number or in writing ." Is it the intention also to accept briefs that appear in person at the hearing without giving prior notice? MR. CHAIRMAN: That has always been our practice, Mr. Graham. 54 MR. H. GRAHAM: Well, I just wonder if that wording might be changed a little then. HON. R. PENNER: lt says "may." it's not "shall." MR. CHAIRMAN: This is the wording that has been used for a number of years, it's fairly standard.

If there is a sugge stion to change the wording, certainly committee will entertain it. MR. G. LECUYER: I figure it's clear. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any further discussion on that point? Mr. Brown. MR. A. BROWN: Not on that particular point, but I think since we are in this particular area, are we going to run this in one language only, or are we going to both English and French? MR. CHAIRMAN: We have never in the past provided simultaneous translation at committee meetings. MR. A. BROWN: No, I'm talking about the ad. MR.

CHAIRMAN: I think it's certainly reasonable that the ad that appears in the one French language weekly in the province be placed in French, yes. I believe that has been done in the past. I believe we have translated ads for La Liberte. Are you recommending that that be done in this case, Mr. Brown? MR. A. BROWN: I'm just wondering where we are with this because there are French-speaking people throughout the entire province. MR. CHAIRMAN: I believe the only newspaper organ that reaches that community would be the one French language weekly.

Is it your recommendation that maybe a French language version of the advertisement appear in that paper? MR. A. BROWN: I was just going to bring it for discussion. Now certainly in the French paper, it should appear in French. HON. R. PENNER: I would agree with that. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any discussion on that suggestion by Mr. Brown? MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Brown is now making a motion to that effect. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is? MR. L. SHERMAN: Yes. MR. A. BROWN: No, really brought this up for discussion purposes. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr.

Brown, I would point out that the Clerk advises that it is standard procedure, so I guess we don't need a motion. We did it with the Crow I -

Thursday, 18 August, 1983 ads and the assessment ads. lt is automa tically translated and put in La Liberte because that's one of the newspapers on the wide world weekly list that we use. Mr. Lecuyer, then Mr. Doern. MR. G. lECUYER: Should there be any doubts about that, then I so propose or suggest that it be. I'm not making a proposition, but if there are any doubts then - I took it for granted it was, myself. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Clerk advises that it is automatic. Mr. Doern. MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Chairrr.dn, just in general, there is I think a fairly sizeable French Canadian popula tion in the southeast, and the Carillon News, I think, is the paper that blankets there. Does this mean that all of these ads would be in both languages in all these papers? I am simply saying that La Liberte has a circulation that is touted to be 12,000, but I'm just saying that there might be other areas of the province that have traditional heavier popul ations, that it would make sense to have the ad in both languages there. An example is the Carillon News. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Is it agreed that we will place the ad in the rural weeklies and dailies as outlined? (Agreed) Now the next question is the timetable for the advertising. I believe the dailies would not provide a problem at all, but the deadline for weeklies and the possible insertion dates, perhaps the Clerk can advise. MS. C. DePAPE: I think for advertising audit that for the rural papers, we can make them all once. The ones in the city, including the Bran don Sun, we can probably get them in twice, and La Liberte.

That is what we have normally done in the past, is we've had them twice in the major papers and once in all the rural papers. MR. CHAIRMAN: What would be the insertion week then for the rural papers? Would that be the week of September 6th to 9th? MS. C. DePAPE: They're all different. MR. CHAIRMAN: But sometime during that week. MS. C. DePAPE: Yes, and make sure that they are advertised before the meetings are held, of course. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Further discussion on that timetable then, two insertions in the weeklies prior to the hearings, in Winnipeg that would mean next week; and in the rural areas the following week for all the rural papers, with the exception of the dailies, where we could insert immediately prior to the hearing because they come out every day. Mr. Lecuyer. MR. G. lECUYER: I move that we so adopt that procedure. MR. CHAIRMAN: Further discussion? Mr. Graham. 55 MR. H.

GRAHAM: I would sug gest that in this advertising campaign that it be advertised right up to the time that the meetings are being held in that area; and in that advertising campaign there is sufficient time to have it in next week's weeklies, so you could have two or th ree weeks. After all, we have the Jobs Fund ads that have been running all summer and they're still running. I don't think the cost is a significant factor. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr.

Graham, I can advise that for one of the commi ttees we had in the past there were some problems - we were not able to get approval by advertising audit - and the mechanics done by noon on Friday which happens to be tomorrow and I'm not sure we can get ads in for next week unless we got it all cleared through by noon tomo rrow. That's the logistical problem as I recall. Do you think the timetable prevents us from getting a series of rural ads in prior to the week of 6th to 9th?

If you want a second set of ads only in those newspapers where we have not held our hearings - in other words - outside of the Thompson, Swan, and Ste. Rose area, the newspapers in the Brandon, Arborg, Ste. Anne and Morden area for the following week, that might be possible, but that would involve some separating out. MR. H. GRAHAM: There's no problem. There's 10 days to get it in the last week in August and the first two weeks in September , for rural Manitoba. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Penner. HON. R. PENNER: Well, my experience with this sort of thing goes back quite a way.

I do know that the effectiveness of an ad diminishes day by day from the time it's published to the event , and the more proximate you can have to the event, the more effective the ad. An ad that's published -j ust to take an example - thr ee weeks before the event, you might as well donate your money to the Salvation Army, basically, for all that you're going to get out of it. On a thing like this, which is not an all-star attraction that people write on their calendar - like going to see Mickey Mouse in person - the closer you have it to the date, the better. MR.

CHAIRMAN: I should ask the Clerk to advise also on the costs that are involved in a normal provincewide advertising campaign, so we get an appreciation of what's involved in doubling up. MS. C. DePAPE: Advertising twice in the Free Press, twice in the Sun, twice in the Brandon Sun, and La Liberte, and once in all the rural papers is about $5,500.00. MR. CHAIRMAN: For a standard size committee notice ad which is not a large ad. This one might actually be a little bigger because of what we've just added. Mr. Brown. MR. A. BROWN: I would suggest, Mr.

Chairman, that a news item be sent out to all these papers, which they will print free of charge, listing the dates on there and doing this immed iately, then before the actual meeting is being held, then place that ad in there.

Thursday, 18 August, 1983 HON. R. PENNER: I would agree. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Brown, I would be prepared on the basis of everything that we conclude today and then agree to after the Clerk has prepared it, to issue such a release early next week, if that's your wish. Is there agreement on there? (Agreed) Mr. Nordman. MR. R. NORDMAN: Just following on that, make that news release to the radio and television stations as well because we're bound to get a certain amount of coverage. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is that agreed? (Agreed) So we've covered content, tim etable, and which papers. Next question is transporation. Mr. Brown.

MR. A. BROWN: I had another question that I was going to pose on this. Are translation services going to be provided? Let's say that somebody does present a brief in French, which will happen, there's no doubt about that, I would fully expect this. If we don't have translation services available to us then there is absolutely no way that we can question that particular person, that we have to take it back to the Legislature first of all in order for us to get it translated over here. MR. CHAIRMAN: I can have the Clerk speak to that. Some research was done in anticipation of this question being raised.

We've never provided translation for a committee before in response to your earlier question. However, the Clerk has obtained some information as to the costs that would be involved in the logistics of doing so. MS. C. DePAPE: National Sound has done the analysis for us. Per day to have a 16-microph one delegate operated conference system is $165.00. A simultaneous

interpretation system for the same group is $157.00. A MEMBER: Per day? MS. C. DePAPE: Yes. A conference recording system per day is $45.00. Also we need an attending technician fees for a normal eight-hour day is $150 a day. Then it's a little bit less for a half-a-d ay, but there's still a standard charge of $28.50, and travel ling time, mileage; that's per day. MR. CHAIRMAN: What's the total cost for eight hearings. A MEMBER: Not far off $1,000 per day, roughly 1,000 bucks a day. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Penner. HON. R. PENNER: I'm just wondering.

I've been at many conferences recently or in recent years in which you have the whole apparatus, the whole kit and kaboodle, and all the rest of it, and it just ain't used because you can never tell. If there isn't some way of using government translation services rather than 56 simulata neous translation - well I guess it has to be - or having it on a stand-by basis for Winnipeg and Ste. Anne, but certainly you don't need it in Thomps on and you're not going to need in the Swan. You might in Ste. Rose, but in Brandon and Morden, it's not li kely. Just wondering if we could work that out in one of two ways.

If you advertise, for example, and say organizations or persons, wishing to make a submission in the French language, should advertise the Clerk of the House, then indeedthat may be all right and maybe promoting it. I sense sometimes it's better not to raise the issue. Now I wouldn't want to make it difficult for anyone in Manitoba. MR. CHAIRMAN: If I may as your Chair man point out two thi ngs.

First, the Clerk mentioned just now that she had neglected to advise that National Industrial Sounds quotation did not include the interpr eters, so we would still have to provide, at government expense, our in-House interpreters. HON. R. PENNER: That we could do. MR. CHAIRMAN: In addition, I would point out that this committee room, which I assume we will be able to use, is equipped with a simul taneous soundtrack system.

So with a portable sound booth, we could have simultaneous translation in here at no outside cost using government inter preters - we would need a portable sound booth - but beyond that going outside of this committee room, we must deal with a private firm to provide a plethora of equip ment as outlined. Further di scussion. Mr. Graham, I believe, then Mr. Storie. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chair man, we all know that providing bil ingual service is not going to be cheap; we've known that for many years.

But I think that rather than offend one person, the cost at this stage in the game is a cost that shouldn't even be considered. I think it is almost mandatory that we provide and demonstrate to the public our willin gness to hear English or French spoken in this province. I would hope that we'd provide translation services at every one of the meetings. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Storie. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairman, I was wondering if there would be a way of compromising, and whether the suggestion you made, or Mr.

Penner made, that there be some way of notifying individuals that if they wished to, they should notify us so that service can be made available. I agree with Mr. Graham that this is a legislative committee and that it would be desirable to be able to do that, but I would suggest that given the unlikely event that there would be numerous presentations in French outside of possibly two or three communitie s, that we make it a requirement that they notify the Clerk in advance. MR.

CHAIRMAN: I should point out that there will not be simult aneous translation available for the media or the public gall ery. lt will only be available for the

Thursday, 18 August, 1983 committee if we provide it in this room. None of the quotations from National Sound include simu ltaneous translation for the media or for the gall ery. Mr. Penner. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Graham is right, and I was just trying to think out the best way of doing it. I think that pre-eminently on this issue, we ought to make it clear that those desiring to present in French can do so, but I would suggest that the compromise really is to say that such presentations are to be made in Winnipeg. You know, it's a hell of a lot cheaper because tha:'s where we can do it.

You can't take the portable booth. Mr. Graham talks about one peraon. Supposing that there is that one person in Tnompson. lt would be a hell of a lot cheaper to bring that person here than to bring the whole kit and caboodle to Thompson. MR. H. GRAHAM: But the whole thing is if you go up there and say . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Are you finished, Mr. Penner? HON. R.

PENNER: No, I'm not, because I don't want what I am saying to be distorted or misunderstood, that it was a suggestion for discussion purposes, the services that the reso luti on itself proposes as a significant demand basis, so don't start suggesting that the resolution itself requir es that the services be provided in every area for one person. That's not what the reso lution req uir es, and I was trying to accommodate that notion. Certain ly, for example, if a person in Ste. Anne would feel more comfortable in presenting in French, it would not be a great hardship to come to Winnipeg to do it.

That was a suggestion for discussion. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr . Chairman, we have demonstrated our will ingness to go out to the public to hear presentations. We're willing to spend thousands of dollars to take this commit tee to various parts of the province to hear the people. Now, if we're going to say to a person, fine, if you want to talk in French, we will even pay your cost of transportation to come to Winnipeg. Even if you offered to do that, I think you would offend the person. If we're going to provide this type of service, I think we have to do it at every location we go to, whether or not it is used.

Then you're asking for trouble. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sherman. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, this is certainly a critical problem and an important one. I certainly subscribe to the desire to respect the linguistic abili ties, rights and armament of any Manitoban who wishes to appear before this committee, but I think that it is impractical to suggest that we make this kind of service available at this point in time in the evolution of this kind of service and of this kind of a Ma nitoba.

Presu mab ly, we are headed in that di rection as practicably and as reasonably and as responsibly as we can get there, but we're not there yet and I don't know of very many Ma nito bans who think that we are there yet or expect us to be there yet. 57 I think that if anybody wants to make a presentation before that committee in French, they should certainly be encouraged to do so, and the fact that the majority of the members of the committee will not be able to question that delegation in the French language is a fact of life that we simply all will have to live with.

At some point in time, that presentation will be translated. By the time we get back into the House to consider the commit tee's di scoveries and conclusions, that presentation will have been translated and those of us who don't have fluency in the French language will by ;hat time have the opportunity to acquaint ourselves with it. In the meantime, I think that we have to be practical and deal with what we've got, and if we are not competent to question that delegation in French then we're not competent to question that delegation in French.

That points up shortcomings on the side of some of us. lt certainly would point up a shortcomings in my case, but sobeit; that's the way it is. I don't think we can spend $30,000-$40, 000-$50,000 of taxpayers' money at this stage in our economic difficulties just on the off chance that there might be thr ee or five or seven presentations of that kind or perhaps even only one, although I expect there will be many more than one; but I think that we do have a responsibility to extend the same kinds of rights and opportunities to the French speaking delegations as would be extended to English speaking delegations.

They can make their presentations in French. We have to do our best to try to understand them, but I don't think we can afford the dupl icate technical resources. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Sherman. This discussion has gone on for 10 minutes or so now, and I still have not had a motion as to what we should do. All this discussion has been taking place generally. Does anyone have a motion as to how to deal with this matter? If there is no motion, I assume we will carry on as we have in the past. Mr. Lecuyer. MR. G. LECUVER: Well, Mr.

Chair man, these presentations are being made to the committee and, therefore, definite ly, I do not see that there is need of a translation for the general public. On the other hand - I missed the early part of this disscussion and I apologize for that - if it is at all possible that translation be provided for the committee in the two locations where we're likely to get a number of presentations in French, then I say yes, definitely not to all locations. This would reach on the ridiculous and would be contrary to the whole purpose of the amendment in the first place.

Therefore, I would not for one moment recommend that we have simu ltaneous translations for all locations. I could see two of these where, if it's at all feasible and reasonable, that it be done. Otherwise - and I would like to get what would happen in terms of specific num bers if that were the case that it was available in two locations where we have scheduled one-day hearings - based on that specific information, we could decide to go to these two locations and if that were not reasonable, then I would move that we do not provide simu ltaneous translation at all.

Thursday, 18 August, 1983 MR. CHAIRMAN: I understand your . . . MR. G. LECUYER: I have a qu estion th erefore. Specifically, in the first instance, what would be the cost and the feasibility of having it in the two locations of Ste. Rose and Ste. An ne? Based on that information, I think we should make a decision. MR. CHAIRMAN: You also are suggesting it be here, tha t there would also be costs associated with Winnipeg? MR. G. LECUYER: No, I was just pointing out to those two locations. MR. CHAIRMAN: In addition to Winnipeg? MR. G. LECUYER: No. MR. CHAIRMAN: Oh. I was going to attempt to answer Mr.

Lecuyer's question. Maybe you can for Ste. Rose. MR. H. GRAHAM: I was wondering if it was possible if we could have a recess for 10 minutes. MR. CHAIRMAN: A request for a recess for 10 minutes. Agreed? The committee is recessed until 4:30. RECESS MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee come to order. The last item we were discussing before we recessed was the question of French language simultaneous translation during our committee hearings. Is there any further discussion on this item? Mr. Brown. MR. A. BROWN: Mr.

Chairman, I raise this just as a point of discussion, really, because I knew that we were going to possibly be faced with some presentations being made in the French language. I think that we, on this side, are quite happy to let the government mem bers on the committee deal with whatever they see fit and do it in whatever way they think is proper. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Penner. HON. R.

PENNER: On that basis, what I think we will do, what I would propose, is we do it on a significant demand basis which, I think, is the rational way to do it and, as submissions come in, I'm sure there will be some of those who will request, and we'll have a chance to assess that and, if you're satisfied, and it appears that there is a significant demand, that we accommodate that demand and we'll take the initiative and do that. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is it agreed that if there are requests for simu ltaneous translation tha t th ey will be accommodated on the basis of the amount of demand there is? HON. R.

PENNER: Significant demand. 58 MR. CHAIRMAN: If there is significant demand for French language simu ltaneous translation, that it will be provided by the commi ttee. Is that at all locations, or just at Winnipeg? HON. R. PENNER: I put it on a significant demand basis, estimating that, indeed, what we might be able to do is address it in terms of where it's more likely to be received, namely, Ste. Rose, Ste. Anne and Winnipeg. I can't see significant demand coming from anywhere else and, on that basis, it may be that if there's only one in Ste. Rose and two Ste.

Anne, then we might not be able to accommodate that. I think we want to be reasonable and everybody here wants to be reasonable about it Certainly if somebody said, well, they want to submit in French anyway that, of course, would be their right MR. CHAIRMAN: Is it the wish of the committee to indicate this decision publicly or to wait for the demand to occur? HON. R. PENNER: Wait for the demand to occur. MR. CHAIRMAN: There'll be no mention of it in, for example, the ad that goes in La Liberte. Thank you, that's agreed then? HON. R.

PENNER: And that's, incidentally , because up to this point that has been the precedent of the way in which these commi ttees operate, that we do accommodate demand and we are prepared to accommod ate demand in two ways; one is th e undou bted right of anybody who wants to speak to the committee in French to do so; but where's a significant demand that warrants the simultaneous translation, we'll take that initiative. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is that agreed? (Agreed) MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Item No. 4, Transportation.

I take it from the discussion earlier that it is agreed that we should either, by public carrier or by charter, travel to Thompson by air. HON. R. PENNER: Thompson by air. MR. CHAIRMAN: Swan River, I take it, also from the discussion, that trip should be by air. it may require smaller planes than a DC-3, such as, two Twin Otters to get in there. Is that agreed? HON. R. PENNER: One Twin Otter would probably do it; it seats 18 . MR. CHAIRMAN: Oh it does? HON. R. PENNER: Sure. I don't know if there's a Twin Otter . . . That would be a commercial Twin Otter , there is no government Twin Otter. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Well if we can't get a Twin Otter, we might have to use two government planes.

Thursday, 18 August, 1983 HON. R. PENNER: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: Last winter we used two Cessnas, the Clerk advises. With regard to Brandon, Morden, Arborg and Ste. Anne, I believe the preference would be car travel, or would we want to fly to Brandon? HON. R. PENNER: Let's leave that option open. We're going from Brandon ... You see, we've got to go to Morden. How do you get from Brandon to Morden? You've got to go by ... MR. CHAIRMAN: There's a dE�y break behveen Morden and Brandon, so we would oe comit;y back to Winnipeg. HON. R. PENNER: Well let's go by air to Brandon. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Air to Brandon for those travelling from Winnipeg? Ste. Rose? Winnipeg to Dauphin? HON. R. PENNER: Dauphin Air and drive. MR. CHAIRMAN: Do I take it then, Morden, Arborg and Ste. Anne are by vehicle? HON. R. PENNER: Right. MR. CHAIRMAN: Private or otherwise. We can all jump in Minis ter's cars and it will be very inexpensive for the government. HON. R. PENNER: Government limous ines. MR. CHAIRMAN: Government limo usines. Mr. Graham. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I think that individual members should be allowed the freedom to use their own car if they so desire. MR. CHAIRMAN: Sure.

I think it's understood that members who may be at other locations imm ediately prior to a hearing will use their own vehicles. However, I think, as Chairman, I would be reluctant to approve the expense account of a commit tee member who chose to drive from Winnipeg to Thompson when a chartered plane was available. In other words, within reason, but if transportation is being provided and the member is travelling the same route, I would expect the mem ber to use th e transportation provided. If the mem ber's travelling another route, of course, the member makes his or her own arrangements.

That's been the past practice. Any further discussion then on transport? Mr. Sherman. MR. L. SHERMAN: We said air to Brandon and then what is being contemplated for Morden? MR. CHAIRMAN: We would fly back to Winnipeg after the Brandon hearings were completed, and a day or two days later we would drive to Morden. lt's about a two-hour drive. MR. L. SHERMAN: We're not going from Brandon to Morden direct? 59 MR. CHAIRMAN: No, because we might be sitting for two days in Brandon. HON. R. PENNER: Harry's going to stay out there and drive to Morden. MR. CHAIRMAN: Further discussion on transportation? MR. H.

HARAPIAK: Mr. Chairman, just looking down a list of the subjects we have to discuss, and the seventh item is, rotating system, and there should be some degree of flexibility so the people can join the meetings wherever they're being conducted. For instance, if I was to join in Thomp son, I should have the flexibility of getting there . MR. CHAIRMAN: Absolut ely. HON. R. PENNER: The respective caucuses can work that out. MR. CHAIRMAN: Absolutely . Mem bers not following the committee itine rary, but travelling on their own, have their own agenda and their own travel arrangements.

Accommodation - the last two travelling comm ittees, accommodation was arranged on a double basis, such that members in each caucus arranged the sharing of accommodation. Is it your agreement that we should proceed in the same fashion? MR. H. HARAPIAK: Agreed. MR. CHAIRMAN: The next item is contacting the list of delegations to determine where they want to appear. At the present time we have not had an indication.

I take it it would be the will of the committee that the Clerk would contact all delegations outside of Winnipeg on the assumption that if they're not from Winnipeg they may wish to appear at one of the other locations and, on that basis then, prepare a list for each of the location sites. Is that agreed? (Agreed) The question of resignations and substitutions. lt was agreed by the House Leaders last week that we would find a relatively simple process for allowing the relatively easy substitution of members, at will, on the committee. Any suggestions? Mr. Sherman. MR. L. SHERMAN: There's been a suggestion, Mr.

Chairman, but also the question has come up in our caucus as to whether the easiest way to proceed might not be simply by passing a resolution in the House giving the committee leave and authority to accept resignations and appoin tments, replacements and changes simply on a verbal basis by addr essing them to the Chairman of the Comm ittee prior to each meeting. MR. CHAIRMAN: Without written resignations. MR. L. SHERMAN: Without written resignations. Mr. Penner. HON. R. PENNER: There's a problem with that, and that is, that this provision, with respect to the written

Thursday, 18 August, 1983 resignations, etc., is in the statute and you would have to pass an amendment to the statute. it's not at all likely that the committee will be voting on anyth ing, although there might be the odd procedural vote, but nevertheless I . . . MR. CHAIRMAN:

An Act to amend The Legislative Assembly Act (4)? HON. R. PENNER: No way. MR. CHAIRMAN: Please dictate. HON. R. PENNER: We could be out of here if we watch it by 5:30 or a quarter to six. We don't want the House to adjourn while we're sitting here. Why don't we go with the method that we proposed, which is that you in effect give your und ated resignations held in escrow by the commit tee chairman on a trust basis as power of attorney; perfectly legal. MR. L. SHERMAN: We have no objection to that, Mr.

Chairman. 1t was simply a matter of passing on a suggestion from our caucus that resulted from our caucus having looked at the original proposal. If it's difficult to proceed by way of resolution, then let's proceed in the way that the Government House Leader suggests. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sherman, if I may comment, your proposal would have worked if it was only the rules of the House that contained the rule, but since it's in The Legislative Assembly Act, we're bound. Mr. Brown. MR. A. BROWN: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, that is what I was going to propose, and what the Attorney-General has said, that each one of us could hand in a letter without a date on it and then you would have your letter there and it could be exchanged. There is, how ever, one problem because both caucuses are not going to be sitting during that period 60 of time that we're in, and I suppose that what will have to be done is that if a member finds that for some reason or other he cannot attend a particular meeting, that he will have to find a replacement, I suppose, on his own, or whatever, and have a replacement att ending.

We will not be able to go through caucus, have anything approved by caucus, because the caucus as such will not be near. MR. CHAIRMAN: In answer to your question, Mr. Brown, I will have the Clerk draft a resignation letter in blank where the indi vidual's name and signa ture can be inserted, and with a date blank so that I can, as chairman, fill in the da te and then accept the appointment of the new mem ber.

With regard to the qu estion of the rotat ion of members on the committee, the government caucus has already agreed amongst themselv es to set up their own rotation so that they know who is going to be on the committee for each given period and that will be established within the caucus. I assume your caucus will be doing the same. Any further business before the commit tee? I would advise members of two things.

Those items that require the concu rrence of members so that the decisions made here are clear will be circulated to those mem bers who are here tomorrow after the Clerk has prepared the minu tes of this meeting. I would also advise members that where a standing committee meets on a day when the Assembly is in session but is not sitting and has been adjourned for a period of four or more continuous days, he shall be allo wed and paid from and out of the Consoli dated Fund an in demnity of $50 for each da y of such attendance and the amount of expenses.

So members on this hearing, other than members of the Executiv e Council, shall be paid the standard per diem and all expenses are covered as if we were sitting int ersessionally . That is what the statute provides. If there's no other further busin ess before the committee, the commi ttee stands adjourned until September 6th at 10:00 a.m. in this room. I