Manitoba Hansard — 90 ISSN 542 (Sitting 25A, 35th Legislature, 1st Session)

35-1-25a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 First Session - Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 39 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Denls C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XXXIX No. 25A • 1 :30 p.m., THURSO A V, NOVEMBER 15,1990 ISSN 0542-5492 Printed by the Offlcs of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARR, James CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILU, Marianne CHEEMA, Gulzar CHOM IAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward, Hon. CUMM INGS, Glen, Hon. DACOUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIED GER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim , Hon. EVANS, Ciif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GIL LESHAM MER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHUN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOS H, Linda MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack, Hon. PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shir ley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric STORIE, Jerry SVEIN SON, Ben VODRE Y, Rosemary WASYL YCIA- LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Os borne Thompson Welli ngton Crescentwood River Heig hts Radisson The Maples Kil donan Portage la Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Rus sell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Stei nbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood lnterlake Brandon East Tuxedo Spring field Wolseley St. Boniface Mi nnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas lnkster The Pas St. Norbert Elm wood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirk field Park Flin Flon La Verendrye FortGarry St. Johns Swan River PARTY.

Liber al NDP NDP Liber al Liber al NDP Liber al NDP PC PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liber al PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liber al PC NDP PC NDP Liber al NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA Thursday, November15, 1990 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Darren Praznlk (Minister of Labour) : I would lik e to table today the Supplem entary Information for Legisla tive Revie w of the Depar tm en tal Expenditures of the Civil Service Commission . Hon. Bonnle Mltchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation): I am pleased to table the Annual Report for the Department of Culture, Heritage and Recreation for the year 19 88-89. Hon. Albert Drledger (Minister of Highways and TransportaUon): Mr.

Speaker, I would lik e to table the Supplemen tary Information for Legisla ti ve Review for 19 90- 91 , Departmental Expenditu re Estimates for the Department of Hi ghways and Transportation. Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): I am pleased to table the Supplementary Information for Legisl ati ve Review for '90 -91 , De partm ent Expendi tu res Esti ma tes , the Department of the Manitoba Family Services. INTRODUCTION OF BILL S BILL 20-T HE STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT (TAXATION) ACT 1990 Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance) : Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minis ter of Justice (Mr.

McCrae), that lea ve be given to introduce Bill 20, The Statute Law Amendment (Taxation) Act 19 90; Loi de 19 90 modi fiant diverses disp ositions legis latives en matiere de fiscalite, and that the same be now received and read the first ti me. His Honour the Lie utenant-Governor having been advised of the contents of this Bill recommends it to the House. Mr. Speaker, associated with this I have tabled the message from the Lieut enant-Governor, Motion agreed to. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questi ons, may I di rect attention of Honourable Members to the gallery where we have from the Sandy Bay School thirty Grade 9 students. They are under the di rection of Mr . Par amor. This school is located in the constitu ency of the Honourable Minis ter of Environment (Mr. Cummings) . Also this afternoon we have from Crescentview School one hundred Grades 5 and 6 students. They are under the dir ection of Liz Matthews. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Mi nister of Co-operative , Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr. Connery).

On behalf of all Honourable Members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERI OD Conawapa Dam Project Environmental Licensing Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): My question is to the Minis ter of Energy and Mi nes (Mr. Neufeld).

This morning we asked a lot of questions, but we sti ll have a great number of concerns about the answers we were given at the commi ttee. lt is clear that in a couple of weeks the Public Uti li ties Board will report on the cost-benefit effect of the proposed Conawapa dam, but after that we are in a state of confusion, if not chaos, in terms of the environmental lic ensing. We may have a provincial li cence process. We may have a federal lic ence process. We may have an Ontario process.

We may have a combina tion of both, and the Government has no idea, and the Minis ter has no idea, what the next move will be in terms of the environment. I would ask the Ministe r, will the Government assure us that there will be no construction until all lic ences that are necessary are issued, provincially and federally? Second, will the Min ister and the Government renegotia te the penalties in the agr eemen t with Onta rio so that Manit oba consumers will not be penalized, if indeed the kind of delays which we have seen with the Old man River

11 97 LEG IS LATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN IT OBA November 15 , 19 90 and the Rafferty- Aiameda dam are perpetrated or agreed to on the Conawapa proposal as with the Government? • (1 335) Hon. Glen Cummlngs (Minister of Environment): The Leader of the Opposition was doing pretty well until he started referring to some other fia scoes in terms of environmental assessm ent that have occurred across the country. Certainly we have been work i ng very har d with the fed eral Government and with the utilit y to make sure that we go through the environmental assessment process in a logi cal , open and fair fashion.

There are a number of ways that we can accommodate that. The bottom line is that we will work with the federal authorities to make sure that the highest possible standards are met and, yes, we will make sure that we have the environmental lic ences in place before major works are undertaken. Ecosystem Boundaries Mr. Gary Doer (leader of the Opposition): There is a differe nce between halting construction unti l the lic ences are issued and the words, major works. My question is to the Mi nister of Energy and Mi nes (Mr. Neufeld).

Today we informed the Mi nister wit hin committee that a number of environmental groups across the country are attempti ng to deal with the James Bay 11 project, the Hydro projects proposed to Hudson Bay in Ontario and Conawapa as one ecosystem and will in fact be arguing with the federal Government that they should be conside red together and jointly, thus delaying the project for Manitoba. Is the Min ister aware of that potential issue, and what is the contingency plan for Manitobans in the event that may happen? Hon.

Glen Cummlngs (Minister of Environment) : To some extent I am aware of those concerns being raised, but I think that the Leader of the Opposition was trying very hard to put weasel words into my mouth regard ing whe ther or not the proper environmental assessment would be done on this project. lt will be done and it will be done correctly.

All the considerati ons and environmental concerns, whether they are with water, land and all of the various land use things that enter into any kind of project of this nature, will be addressed, so that both the federal and the provincial authorities are clearly able to answer the jurisdic tional requirements that they have under environmental licensing . Conawapa Dam Project Energy Saving Proposal Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I have a further question to the Mini ster of Energy and Min es.

Today in committee we identified the fact that the energy saving target goals in British Columbia were 5.9 percent, Mr. Speaker, in Quebec they are 5.6 percent, and in Ontario they are 6. 7 percent. Yet the Minis ter has arti culated and defended a 2 percent energy saving by the year 2001 , which is only 10 0 megawatts.

My question to the Min ister is: In ligh t of the fact that Hydro's own witnesses at committee stated that they would bet their pensions that Hydro could at least achieve 4 or 5 percent by the year 2000 , why is the Min ister and the Government purporting such low target levels for Manitoba, and why will he not go to a 5 or 6 percent energy saving proposal as other provinces have done which will save consumers and the consumers of Manitoba Hydro a considerable amount of money in the years to come, as well as a considerable amount of demand? Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr.

Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition must know that projections do not save money. What saves money in the end is whether or not we can meet projecti ons. At this point in ti me our best exper t and professional advice is that we can save, by the year 2000, 1 00 megawatts. We cannot, as I told the commi tte e this morning, develop our futu re gene rati on on the basis of anything else but professional advice that we get from our experts. • (1 340) Northern Flooding Compensation Package Mr. Oscar Lathlln (The Pas): Mr.

Speaker, my question is dir ected to the Minis ter of Energy and Min es, who is also responsible for Hydro. An announcement yesterday was made by the Man itoba Hydro people and the provincial Government of compensation that was given to the communities of Moose Lake and Easterville as a

November 15 ,1 990 LEG ISLAT IVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 11 98 result of the negative impacts that were caused on the physical, social and economic well being of those people resident in those areas. My question is: Could the Minister tell this House today when and how much compensation will also be given to the communities of The Pas, Grand Rapids and Cormorant? Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr.

Speaker, I think the fact that an arrangement has been made and negotiations have been completed with com munities that were affected so many years ago, more than 25 years ago, speaks well for Manitoba Hydro's commitment to the northern communities. As and when, Mr. Speaker, the negotiations are held and are completed, those questions can be answered. Report Recommendations Mr. Oscar Lathlln (The Pas): Mr. Speaker, my supplementary question is to the same Minister.

There was a repor t that was prepared for Manitoba Hydro and the provincial Government by consultants to review the research data that has been compiled by the forebay committee and by Hydro officials. My question is: Could the Minister table that report here this afternoon so all of us can review what the recommendations were and so forth? Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr. Speaker, the fact that reports have been received does not mean that we have come to a conclusion on which way to proceed.

I think I had said earlier that the fact that we have concluded and have indeed signed an agreement with several communities indicates to me at least that Manitoba Hydro is very serious in its commitment to the northern communities. As negotiations proceed and as requests are received, those negotiations will be proceeded with in a normal way, and the results will be made known. Compensation Package Mr. Oscar Lathlln (The Pas): Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary is again to the same Minister. We all know the devastating effects that were caused by the Grand Rapids Hydro Station.

My question is: This compensation package, did it include strictly a cash payment? Did it include programs and services that would address the long-term effects on those people resident in that community? Did it also include land? Was it a one-time compensation deal, or is it an ongoing program? Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr. Speaker, all the agreements that have been concluded have been with the full acceptance of those communities that are affected. I do not think there is anything more that has to be said about those agreements. Conawapa Dam Project Hydro Spending Mr.

Jarnes Carr (Crescentwood): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Energy and Mines, the Minister in charge of Manitoba Hydro. Confusion at the committee this morning was not only environmental reviews. There was also a great deal of contradiction and confusion over the amount of money spent by Manitoba Hydro in advance of all the necessary approvals. I wonder if the Minister could clear up the confusion for the House now and tell us precisely how much money Manitoba Hydro intends to spend by the end of 1991, includi ng pe nalt ies for withdrawal. Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister of Energy and M ines): Mr.

Speaker, if there was any confusion it was only in the mind of the Me mber for Crescentwood. Mr. Speaker, as of today approximately $45 million has been spent. That includes interest on the monies that have been spent. lt is Manitoba Hydro's intention to spend in the area of another $12 .9 million by March 31, 1991. In the event, and I think we should preface that by saying that if there is a recovery of costs for either Manitoba Hydro or Ontario Hydro, it is only a recovery of cost of the cap of some $20 million from March 31 and moving upwards to $100 million by December 31, 1991.

We should mention also that Ontario Hydro is subject to recovery of our cost, Manitoba Hydro's cost, in the event that they back out. lt is a two-way street. lt is not designed only to have Manitoba Hydro pay Ontario Hydro for costs it may have incurred. lt is also designed to have Ontario Hydro

11 99 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA November 15 , 19 90 pay Manitoba Hydro in the event that the deal is canceled on their part. * (134 5) Withdrawal Penalties Mr. James Carr (Crescentwood): The confusion continues. Mr. Ransom, the chairman of Manitoba Hydro, said that it is reasonable to assume that there will not be environmental approvals before the end of 19 91 . My supplementary questi on to the Minis ter is: What would the penalties of withd rawal be by Dec em ber 31, 1991, in addition to dir ec t expenditures by Manitoba Hydro on the Conawapa project? Hon.

Harold Neufel d (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr. Speak er, the Member for Crescentwood well knows that the recovery of cost by Ontario Hydro in the event that Manitoba Hydro backs out of the agreement by December 31 , 1991 , is $1 00 mi lli on. If the lesser amount is the amount spent by Ontario Hydro, it will be that amount. lt is the lesser of the amount spent by Manitoba Hydro or $100 mi llion at December 31, 19 91. There are recovery costs on both sides. Ontario Hydr o's maximum cost to Manitoba Hydro for money spent is $600 mi llion. This is a two-way street, Mr.

Speaker, and in any agreement we have to have agreement on both sides. We have to have concurrence on both sides and this is just one of those agreements. Mr. Carr: Mr. Speaker, the confusion grows wit h every question . The Mi nister responsi ble for Manit oba Hydro has told us that the penalty at December 31- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Would the Honourable Member kindly put his question now, please. Mr. Carr: Mr. Speaker, given the fact that the Min iste r just overesti mated the penalty by $50 mi lli on- Point of Order Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speak e r, you admonished the Member to get to his questi on, to do without the

preamble. Again, I ask you to bring him to order and ask him to do so. Mr. Speaker: I would lik e to thank the Honourable Government House Leade r. The Honourable Member for Crescentwood kindly put his question now, please. *** Mr. Carr: Mr. Speaker, why did the Mi nister of Energy just make a $50 mill ion mistake? Mr. Neufeld: Mr. Speaker, I would like to think of it as a 365-day error. Agricultural Community Debt Restructuring Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Yesterday , Mr.

Speaker, I had the opportunity to meet with the western provincial New Democratic agriculture and rural cri tic along with my colleague the Member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk) dealing with the issues and pro blems facing rural communities and of course agricultur e across western Canada and to dis cuss some of the serious problems faci ng agricultu re and contrib uted to by Conservative Governments across this country and the policies that they have carried out, lik e free trade and the method of payment and undermi ning the Wheat Board and so on, Mr. Speaker.

Meanwhi le, the issues of safety net and GA 1T have been getti ng most of the attention in discussions. I ask the Mini ster, as a re sult of the seri ous problems that were identified in debt restructuring, the need for debt restructuring in agri culture, I want to ask the First Mi nister whether he indeed has di rected his Mi nister of Agric ulture (Mr. Rndlay) to ensure that the issue of debt restructuring be included on the agenda of the agri cultural Ministers' meeti ng in Winnipeg yesterday and today and if in fact that is the case as requested by our critic yesterday. Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr.

Spea ker, I bel ieve that question was covered during the Questi on Period yesterday. Mr. Ploh man : What I asked the Fi rst Mini ster-b ecause he did not know the answer, he gave an innocuous answer of course, that there was a need to have debt restructuring on the agenda. lt is a serious issue. Is it on the agenda or is it not? Is it being dealt with? I ask as well wi th regard to the safety net, given that this is one of the major programs that the

November 15 ,1 990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 12 00 provincial Ministers are dea ling with, will this First Minister ensure that any agreement that is arrived at will include the cost of production in this safety-net proposal ; will it include and ensure that there is no federal offloadi ng, such as reported that producers may have to pay 50 percent of the costs and will include a cap so that the majority of the benefit s go to farm families, not- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. *

(1350) Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, as the Member well knows, all of those matters are the subject of negotiations amongst the provinces and the federal Government and ulti mately the producers. If it is a program that is to cover on a long-term insurance basis the needs of the farm communi ty, then it is going to have to provide protection. lt is going to have to have contributions in there towards a plan that will insure them against all sorts of variables, whether those variables be production, price or other matters.

Although that is the subject of very intens ive negotiations, that will take place over the next while. Mr. Plohman: Given that there is serious confusion about the amounts that should be contributed and the fact that there probably will not be agreement that will be arrived at in time for 19 91 , will this Minister now com mit his Government to pressing for a deficiency payment, a major payment being made early in 1991 , a commitm ent by the provincial and federal Governments to that principle now so that farmers have the kind of cash that is needed to continue to operate this coming spring? Mr. Fllmon: Mr.

Speaker, we are well aware of the concerns of the farm co m mun ity, of the devastation- An Honourable Member: Will he make that commitm ent? Mr. Fllmon: The Member obviously does not want to know the answer. He wants to heckle, so I will let somebody else ask a question. Family VIolence Justice System Review Ms •. Becky Barrett (Well ington): Mr. Speaker, today the Justice Minister announced a special review into the administration of justice to determine whether procedures ensure that victims of domestic violence are adequately protected and sensitiv ely treated by the justice system.

I think all Members of this House as well as the community at large know that charges are not being laid, know that restraining orders are not worth the paper they are written on, know there is inadequate training for people who work in the justice system and know there is in ade quate trea tme nt for offenders and victi ms. My question to the Minister is: Can he give the House the cost of this review? Hon.

James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General}: The cost of the review at this time is very difficult to quantify for the Honourable Member, because a number of the inputs, a number of the componen ts of the review will have to do with resources that are available to Dorothy Pedlar from the Government of Manitoba, either the Department of Justice or the Department of Family Services or the Women's Directorate. I can say to the Honourable Member that the grief we hope to be able to obviate by virtue of such a study is so massive that it would make whatever the cost of the study appear insignificant. Ms.

Barrett: Mr. Speaker, again to the Minister of Justice, would he be willin g to table the terms of reference of this review and guarantee to this House that the costs of this review will not come out of existing programs that are already underfunded? Mr. McCrae: The costs of this review will not come out of existing programs, which the-and I will leave the rest of the Honourable Member's comments out, because they are not true and they certainty are not relevant to any intelligent discussion of the matter.

The terms of reference are, as contained in today's press release-1 can make it available to the Hono urable Member if she has not seen it. lt inclu des a review to examine and mak e recommendations on existing law, policies and procedu res related to domes tic viole nce, with par ticular regard to: in vestigation and law enforcement procedures; processing of charges; inte rim procedures pending trial and sent ence; restraining orders including both bail and Family Maintenance Act orders; training of those involved in the enforcement system ; firearms acquisition certificates and control of weapons; probation and institutional treatment of offenders; and access to legal and paralegal assistance for victims.

12 01 LEG I SLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA November 15 , 19 90 Women's Crisis Shelters Funding Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, since this Government is prepared to give money to do yet another study, oan the Premier guarantee that operating funds will be available for shelters such as-throughout the province, but shelters in particular-Agape House and the LEA shelter in the lnte rlake, so that they can conti nue to provide proven services, not needing to be studied yet again, but proven services to women and children in this province? *

(1355) Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I am finding it difficult to believe that the Member for Wellington is opposed to doing this kind of review and study when it was called for by women's groups, called for by her own Party at the time of the concerns that were raised with some of the terrible deaths recently. The need for this review was unequivocally supported by both the Liberal Party and the New Democratic Party. Now the critic is breaking ranks from her Party's previous position.

We intend to do this review so that we will indeed find the basis of improving the system, as we have done during our last two and a half years, by providing major substantial increases, 50 percent increases in funding, 45 percent increases in per diem rates. We will continue to improve the shelters and the protection for women, but obviously there is more that needs to be done, which is why we have comm issioned this review, to give us a blueprint for further action. Environmental Programs Funding Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of the Environment.

A blue chip panel of envi ron men tal ists recently retained by the Ottawa Citize n has ranked Manitoba ninth out of 1 0 provinces in expenditures in the environme nt. That is one position up -(interjection) That is right. The Premier (Mr. Almon) is right. After two and a half years they are ahead of Saskatchewan, and we all know Saskatch ewan's record on the environment. Mr. Speaker, despite the flurry of nice looking brochures put out by the department and the round table, there is not a heck of a lot of substance, let alone evidence of real political will, coming from this Gov ernment .

The Resource Recove ry Institute rece nt ly ha d to go pub lic and beg to this Gove rnment to get a mere $35,000 grant, less than one-third of the interest on the Innovations Fund for one year. Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister is: When is this Government going to come to grips with the fact that a commitment to the environment does not jus t mean talki ng a big li ne, publishing nice brochures and hoping to make a profit as evidenced by the ir pitiful support- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Hon. Glen Cummlngs (Minister of Environment): Mr.

Speaker, the Member conveniently forgets to acknowledge all of the other things that are going on acr oss the variou s de partmen ts in thi s Gove rnment to make sure that we deal with our envi ronment in a sound and caring way. The Departmen t of Natural Resou rces has a major responsibility and is doing a number of things as well.

The Department of Agriculture, the Department of Rural Developme nt, the Department of Highways even, all have roles to play in terms of dealing with the environment and environmental protection in this provi nce. -(interje cti on)-Well, one of the Mem bers ove r there, the fo rmer Minis ter of Highways, references, highways even. What does he think a highway does when it goes through a sensitive area? The fact is that all of these things amount to -(interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Cummlngs: Sorry I brought that up, Mr. Speaker.

The fact is that to only look at the Department of Environment in any one administration and say that this is all that is being done in terms of environmental lea dersh ip by a Gov ernmen t is tot ally not acknowledging all the things that a Government must do. Resource Recovery Institute Funding Application Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James) : I hate to burst the Ministe r's bubble, Mr. Speaker, but this review is done of the entire provi ncial budget, and this Government still finished ninth out of ten. That is not just the Department of Environment, that is the whole provincial commitme nt.

November 15 ,1 990 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 12 02 Wi ll the Mi nister of Environment today admit that the Resource Recovery Institute in fact origin ally requested assistance in March ofthis year, followed it up with further details in July of this year, made repea ted in quiries as to the sta tus of their applic ation and were led along until they reached a financial crisis in September of this year, never told by this Government what, if anything, was wrong with the ir appl icat ion?

How did this Min ister have the gall to stand in the House yesterday and say that their appl ication is defic ient when he has done- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. * (1 400) Hon. Glen Cummlngs (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, upon receipt of the origi nal request from the RRI, they were told there was no way that they were going to achieve the amount of dollars that they were requesti ng.

They know full well, going back to the original concept of the Wolseley blue-bag program, which was set up on a pilot basis, that the reason for the involvement of the provincial Government and the City of Wi nnipeg was to have it set up as a pilot so we could examine their way of operati on, the economics of their operation and how the city and the reside nts of not only this city, other urban centres across the province, could learn from that experience so we cou ld best design environmentally friendly recycling projects in this province.

We now are asking that information be amassed so we can decide where we are going from here. Environmental Innovations Fund Grant Limit Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, finally for the same Minis ter, is it true that the Min ister has arbitr arily placed a $40 ,0 00 grant lim it on the $1 mill ion Innovations Fund? If so, why has he hamstrung his Government's abilit y to look at the merits of each proposal as it comes forward without prejudging the amount the Government is willing to- Mr. Speaker: Order, pl ease.

The Honourable Member should ascertain the accuracy of his facts before bri nging it to the Chamb er. Will the Honourable Member kindly rephrase his question, please? Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, will the Min ister indica te why he and his Government have placed a $40 ,000 limi t on the amount that can be paid out of the Innovations Fund and not maintain to themselves the right to judge each proposal on its merits and treat it accordingly? Hon. Glen Cummlngs (Minister of Environment): I guess one should ig nore

preamble and some of the tale-end remarks of that questi on. The fact is he is clearly indic ating why very often Government programs get into problems. That is that decision- making processes of a sound nature are not in place. We have decided that we are looking at starting up projects. We are looking at assisting in the early stages of projects. We have said that if we want the dollars and the benefits to be able to move in a wider area that we can limi t that amount of money. That is a decision that is quite clearly the responsibil ity of Government.

I think he has forgotten as well that out of the Environmental Innovations Fund-a nd he will have the opportunity during the Estimates process to look at the other areas of responsibil ity that we have to look at, the industrial initiatives where we talk about the abil ity to provide markets for some of the recyclables, the ini tiatives under Natural Resources tha t can provide some true be nefits to the environment. Mr. Speaker, he has entirely missed the intent of the funds. New Homes Warranty Program Replacement Program Hon. Edward Connery (Minister of Co-operative, Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, yesterday I received a question from the Member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale ). I am distu rbed over the content of the questi on, because we know Members opposite do their research in the papers, but surely he should read the whole arti cle. Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Oppos ition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, I assume that the Minis ter had risen on a question that had been taken as notice. If that is the case-w hich he did not

12 03 LEGl SLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA November 15 , 19 90 state-he should then answer the question, not engage in the kind of irrelevant comments that tend to debate , something that is clearly against our rules as outli ned in Beauchesne's. Mr. Speaker: I would lik e to thank the Honourable Opposition House Leader. The Honourable Mi nister is responding to a question taken as notice , yes? An Honourable Member: Yes, yesterday. *** Mr. Connery: Mr. Speaker, the question raised was over the homeowners warranties. No homeowner warranty is in jeopardy. All homeowner warranties will be honoured.

Tiffa ny's was suspended on November 8, but all contracts entered into before that ti me will be honoured. Mr. Speaker, about 90 percent of all homes built in the Ci ty of Wi nnipeg are covered by the New Homes Warranty Program. The prOgram is not a Government program. lt is one that is entered into by the Man itoba Home Bui lder s Associ atio n. De posits of up to $1 0, 000 are covered and warranties of up to $30 ,000 .0 0. lt is mandatory for all CMHC and MIC loans to carry the New Homes Warranty Program. The Member- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please.

The Honourable Min ister has responded to the question. Social Assistance Rate Increase Mr. Doug Martlndale (Burrows) : Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Min ister of Family Services. For the past two and a half years he and his Government have blamed the NDP for every problem conceivable, ima gined or real. Yet at the same ti me, they continually brag that they are doing better than thei r predecessors. However, increasi ng numbers of people are using food banks. I thank the media for reminding us of their stories and their pligh t. Increasi ng numbers of people are using soup kit chens and food bank outlets .

Therefore , I have a challen ge for the Minis ter and his Government. Will the Minis ter raise social assistance rates for 19 91 by more than the Consumer Price Index? Will he announce the increase soon? Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Hon. Harold Gll leshammer (Minister of Family Services): I thank the Honourable Member for such an accurate portrayal of history. The department indeed does increase the income security benefits to recipi ents, and we monitor the cost of living and increase the allowances to reflect the cost of living .

We will be maki ng those announcements in the near future. Mr. Martlndale: Mr. Speaker, will the Government at least match the increases of the New Democratic Party, since from his answer he indicates he will not exceed them and, therefore, meet the record of the NDP, who in the 1 980s did increase the rates above the rate of the Consumer Price Index in order to stop people, especially increasi ng numbers of children, from being dependent on private charity at soup kit chens and food banks? Mr. Glll eshammer: Mr. Speaker, the Member has a selective recall, and he is using figur es from particular years.

If he will look at the last 10 years, it is quite natural for this department to reflect changes in the cost of living, and we will be doing so. Mr. Martlndale: Mr. Speaker, there were two years in which this previ ous Government of ours increased above the CPI, 19 82 and 19 83. My final supplemen tary is: Will the Min iste r increa se social assis tance rates sufficie ntly to compensate the poor for the punitive and regressive goods and services tax, the GST? Mr.

Gll leshammer: I would ask the Member to look at the record of his Party through the entire period of the 19 80s, and you will see that the rates do reflect the increase in the cost of living. We will be doing so when we make our announcement. Unemployment Rate Government Initiatives Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minis ter of Finance (Mr. Manness), through the Premier. Last Friday , the Premier took credit for the low unemployment rate in Manitoba for the month of October. Mr.

Speaker, a look at the Statistics Canada report for that same period reveals that Manitoba has experienced some serious job losses in some of our basic industries. Comparing this Octob er wit h la st Oct ober, ma nufact uring employment decli ned by 6.8 percent, or by 4,000

November 15 ,1 990 LEG ISLAT IVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 12 04 jobs ; construc tion emp loymen t declined by 12 percent, or by 3,000 jobs ; transportation and public utilities- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Is there a question here? Kindly put your question, please. Mr. Leo nard Evans: Mr. Speaker, we are losing jobs in these important industries at a very serious rate, worse than the national average. My question is: What does this Government, what does this Premier intend to do, if anything, to deal with the serious decline in these basic high-income industries? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, you know, the Member opposite is always groveling around trying to find the worst possible statistics he could use, the worst possible view. The fact of the ma tter is tha t the lo w unemployment rate in Manitoba, at 6.6 percent on a se ason ally adju sted basis -the lowes t in the country-is based on a number of factors. The fact is that this year to date , according to the Conference Board, our increase in investment has been the second high est in the cou ntry. Our economic growth is forecasted to be well above the national average.

Our manufacturing shipme nts increase, we are somewhere around the second or third highest in the country. Various other statistics all point to the fact that there are areas of strength in the econom y, positive thi ngs happening in the economy. You have in the aerospace industry record emplo yment levels of all time in this province.

You have lnco making a commitmen t of investmen t of some almost $300 million in recognition of their view of the strength of our economy. lt is as a result of conscious policies adopted by this Gove rnment, keeping taxes down, in fact lowering taxes during the past two and a half years, managing the affairs of Government so our deficit was half the level that it was under the NDP, less than half the level for the last two years. Those kinds of policies have attracted investm ent and growth and allowed us to go counter to the national trends, Mr. Speaker. * (1 41 0) Manufacturing Industry Unemployment Rate Mr.

Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Can the Premier explain why our manufacturing industries are continuing to decline in Manitoba faster than Canada as a whole ? For the first 1 0 months of this year we are down by 8,000 jobs. In fact we are now at the lowest level of manufacturing jobs in the past decade. How does this Government propose to cop e with the serious disa ppear ance of manufacturing jobs in the Province of Manitoba? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier) : Mr. Speaker, I wish that the Member-who is presumably an econom ist and a stati sti cian , he advertises hims el f as such-would look across the country.

When he suggests that Manitoba is losing all sorts of jobs I can tell him th at in the years that the New Democratic Party was in Government, between 19 81 and 19 87, we lost 10 ,000 manufacturing jobs during that period of time-1 0,0 00 jobs. I can tell him that if he wants to look at the statistics, at what is happening across the country, all he needs to do is read Maclean's magazine, the Globe and Mail and he will find that in the first nine months of this year alone Ontario has lost 53,000 jobs in manufacturing. Where is his head? Is it in the sand, or is it in reality?

The fact is that this -(interjection)-Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Retail Sector Unemployment Rate Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, the Premier better look at those figures again, because Manitoba lost 13 .3 percent in the level of employment in manufacturing, in Canada it was only 5.4, almost two and a half times the rate of job disappearance in manufacturing. Mr. Speaker, my final question is: Why has our retail sector decli ned by 4,000 jobs, or 4.4 percent, in October com pared to last year at this time,

whereas the nation as a whole, retail sector jobs have increased by 4. 7 percent? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, our retail trade is forecast to grow over 4 percent--4.5 percent this year. That is again well above what is happening in most other provinces in the country. The labour force in Manitoba increased by 7,000 persons between October '89 and October '90 .

12 05 LEG ISLATIVE ASS EMBL Y OF MANITOBA November 1 5, 1990 Employment in creased 2.5 per cent, 12 ,000 pe rso ns, Oct ober '89 to Oct ober '90 . Unemployment decreased 5.3 percent, or 2,000 persons, during that period between October '89 and Sep tem ber '90. The labour force on a ye ar-to-date basis is up 7,0 00 pe rsons . Employment on a year-to-date basis for the first nine months of this year is up 8,000 pers ons. Unemployment is down by 4 percent in the fi rst nine months of this year.

All of these are positiv e indicators that the economy is outperforming the national average, is going counter to the national trend. lt is good news- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. Child and Family Services Administration Review Mr. Reg Alcock (Osbome ) : Mr. Speaker, despite the fact that the Min ister of Finance ·(Mr. Manness) nor the Min is te r of Fam ily Se rvi ces (Mr.

Gillesham mer) nor the Premier have been able to produce a single piece of evidence that suggests that there is a problem in the administration of the Child and Famil y Services agencies, the Premier continues to go in the hall and attack them. Now I would ask him today: Is he prepared to have his Government commission an independent study of the management of those agencies to determine the question once and for all? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, rather than engage in the kind of political manipu lati on and maneuvering that the Memb er for Osborne is doing-and you know, the Member for Osborne on the one hand consults to these agencies and offers them workshops on ma na gemen t and administration and then at the same ti me comes in here and tries to make politics of what he is doing within those agencies. The fact of the matter is that we are trying to work out some serious problems. We are trying to work out problems of adjustment to a system that was created willy -nilly by the NDP in the mid-'80s.

There are problems, but the problems are not that this Government is not funding them well above the level at which it is increasing funding to every other area of Government. The problem is that funding gets to the agencies and to the services that they are supposed to deliver, and it does not result in the im provements that we are looking for. So we have to work with the agencies. We do not have to work politically to try and help the Member be re-e lected in Osborne. We have to work with the agencies to support the chil dren- Mr. Speak er: Order, ple ase . Time for Oral Questions has expired.

ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Hon. Clayton Manness (Go vernment House Leader): Mr. Speak er, I believe if you canvassed the House there may be a predisp osition to waive private Members' hour today. Mr. Speaker: Is it the will of the House to waive private Members' hour? Agreed? Agreed. Mr. Manness : Mr. Speaker, there has been a discussion am ongst Hous e Leaders of the -(in terjecti on)- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. I am sure all Honourable Members want to find out what we are going to be doing today. Mr. Manness: Mr.

Speaker, after consultation wit h the Opposition House Leaders, before I move the motion of Supply, I would indic ate to the House that the Estimates of Industry, Trade and Tourism will continue in Committee Room 255, followed by Consu mer and Corporate Affairs. With in the Chamber this afternoon, Education will continue followed by Family Services. Mr. Speaker, I will be moving a motion with respect to sitting this evening, and this evening Cultu re will be considered, the Department of Culture, deal ing with the

section of Culture. Sim ila rly, the motion I will be moving is with respect to sitti ng late this evening and tomorrow. Tomorrow afternoon Estimates in the Chamber will then go back to Fami ly Services. Mr. Speaker, as I indi cated there have been further dis cussions bet ween House Leaders respecting the consideration of Estimates. I belie ve you will find that there is unanimous consent in the House to im plement the following proposals: 1.

THAT notwiths tand ing the provisions of sub-ru le 3.(4) , on November 15 at 6 p.m. the Speaker, if he is in the Chair, or if the House is in the Com mittee of Su pply at that ti me, the Chai rperson in the committ ee, shall leave the Chair until 8 p.m ., and 12 mid night on that date the

November 15 ,19 90 LEG ISLAT IVE ASSEM BLY OF MANI TOBA 12 06 Speaker shall adjourn the House without question put. On November 16 at 12 :30 p.m., the Speaker, if he is in the Chair, or if the House is in Committee of Supply at that ti me, the Chairper son of the committ ee, shall leave the Chair unti l 1 p.m., and at 4 p.m . on that date the Speaker shall adjourn the House without question put. 2.

THAT both sections ofthe Committee of Supply shall sit on November 15 , in addition to such hours that they may sit in the afternoon, from 8 in the evening until 12 midnight on that date, and shall rise without questi on put at that ti me. On November 16 , in addition to such hours as they may sit prior to 12 :30 p.m., from 1 p.m. until 4 p.m. on that date, and shall rise without question put at that ti me. 3. iHAi notwiths1Anding trut ptovialon• of Rule 86.(9)(o), the Estimates of a department may be introduced in either

section of the Committee of Supply after 10 p.m. tonight. Mr. Speaker: Is there unanimous consent? lt is agreed? Agreed. * (1 430) Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Mi nister of Justice (Mr. McCr ae) , that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chai r and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider the Supply to be granted to Her Ma jesty. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itse lf into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for St. Norbert (Mr.

Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism ; and the Member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) in the Chair for the Department of Educati on and Training, and the Department of Family Services. CONCURRENT COMMI TTEES OF SUPPL Y SUPP LY-IND USTRY, TRADE AND TOURISM Mr. Dep uty Chairman (Marcel Laurendeau): Order, plea se. When we la st met we were considering 2.(a)(1 ) Salaries $1 84,800-pass. Hon. Jlm Ernst (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism: Mr. Deputy Chair man, before we continue further, I would just lik e to note that I have tabled a copy of a proposal from Dr.

Bond with regard to the study we di scussed yesterday. Mr. Deputy Chairman: Thank you very much, Mr. Minis ter. Mr. J erry Storle (FI In Flo n): Mr. Dep uty Chairp erson, in your enthusiasm you passed which ite m? Mr. Deputy Chairman: (1 ) Salaries $1 84,800 .00. Mr. Storle: And what item are we on, 1 what, 2.(a)? Mr. Deputy Chairman: 2.(

a) Industry and Trade, Salaries $1 84,800.00. Mr. Storle: Your enthusia sm was matched by your good judgment. You can pass that. Mr. Deputy Chairman: That is what you said at the last meeti ng. Other Expenditures $8,500-pass . 2.(

b) Indus try : (1 ) Sec toral Development $1 ,1 57,300 .00 . Mr. Storle: Mr. Deputy Chair person, this area Includes a

section called Sectoral Development, and I wonder if the Minis ter can gi ve us some break down of wha t

part icu lar sec tors the department has Identified as priorities for the coming year, the coming three to five year period? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Deputy Chairman, health industries, food processing, informatics and electronics, and the aerospace industry. Those are four priorit ies. The department does monitor of course a wide variety of other industries, as well . Mr. Storle: Well, I would lik e those repeated at some point, but we will start with the question on the health industries. Could I have the lis t again? Mr. Ernst: Yes, the lis t was aerospace, food processing, informatics and electronics, and health. Mr. Deputy Chairma n, there is a whole

section of the Esti mate s on the health indus tri es initia tiv e . Perhaps we could deal with that when we come to that

section and maybe focus on the others at this point. Mr. Storle: Mr. Deputy Chai rperson, I am certainly agreeable to proceed in that way. Dealing first with the food processing industry, the Government, I believe, was involved with the Agri-F ood Agreement which, if memory serves me correctly, was partly responsible for some of the research that was being done in terms of food processing. I am wondering whether the ending or restructuring ofthe Agri-F ood Agreem ent will have any effect on the food processing research that is going on in Portage. Mr. Ernst: No, it will not. Mr.

Storle: Could the Mi nister indic ate what projects that agreement was funding related to the food processing industry?

12 07 LEG ISLA TIVE ASS EMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA November 15, 19 90 Mr. Ernst: The Agri- Food Agreement prim arily dealt with projects brought forward by the Department of Agricu lture and had little, if anything, to do dir ectly with the operations of the Manitoba Research Council to whic h the Member has referred. Mr. Storle: Does this departm ent fund in any way the food lab that is in Portage? Mr. Ernst: Yes, Mr. Deputy Chairman, it is one of the two fac ili ties oper ated by the Manit oba Research Council, which again is a separate

section under this department. We make grants to the Manitoba Research Council, and they operate the food centre in Portage. Mr. Storle: This area has been, traditi onally, quit e im portant in terms of Manitoba's economy. lt concerns me greatly when this department produces some statistics with respect to the Free Trad e Agreem ent, which show that the food processing area of manufac tur ing , the food industries, has shown a significant decl ine in terms of the trade with the United States. The trade deficit has increased quite dramati cally.

There were many-and we touched on this during the opening remarks-in the food industry, including major players such as McCain's, who indic ated that the Fre e Trade Agr eemen t would have a devastating effect on the food processing industry in Manitoba, in Canada generally, but in Manitoba in particular. Since the Free Trade Agreement was signed, we have seen the closing of the Campbell's soup plant. I do not know if it is closed yet, or it is going to be within a few months. We have seen the sell- off of the mushroom plant, or the attempted sell- off of the mushr oom plan t, which was also owned by Campbell's.

We are now hearing that the canola crushing plants may also be in jeopardy. I am wondering whether the Min iste r or the department has any plans in place to make sure that we can defend ourselves from the im pact of the Free Trade Agreement over the long haul, remi nding him that the real im pact probably will not be felt for another quite a few years. The only changes that are happening right now ise restructuring that makes it very advantageous to locate elsewhere. Mr. Ernst: Mr. Deputy Chair man, I do not subscribe to most of what the Member from Flin Flon (Mr.

Storie) has just put on the record, but let us deal wit h them one at a ti me. The question of Campbell's soup plant in Portage la Prair ie, certai nly devastati ng for the community of Portage la Prairie and something that no one would ever have wanted to see occur, nonetheless, the facts of the matter are that soup consumption in North Ameri ca-to which Portage la Pr airie' s Campbell Sou p pl ant con tri but ed to that market--has been flat for a number of years.

There has been virtually no growth in that industry at all . * (1 440) The Campbell Soup Co. competes with the Heinz Soup Co. as its chie f competitor. That competitor produces all of its soup in one plant; Campbell Soup produced their s in about half a dozen plants. Campbell Soup clearly indi cated that they could no longer continue to produce in a fractionated basi s, but had to consolidate their operations. As a result, Mr.

Deputy Chair man, they closed one plant in Quebec, one plant in Toronto, one plant in Manitoba and two plants in the United States, including historically, the home of Campbell Soup in Camde n, New Jersey, something that was very di ffi cult for a company that has a proud name, as Campbell has had for so many years, to close that original home plant. So, Mr.

Deputy Chairman, the question of competitive ness is paramount, and as much as we regret the decision to close the Portage la Prairie plant, no one can fault a company for tryi ng to remain competitive , trying to maintain the jobs and their position in the industry that they have at the present ti me. If they have to consolidate their operati ons to remain competitive , then they have to do that. We all collectively have to understand that despite the fact that we have to face some hardships along the way. Mr.

Dep uty Chair man, with respec t to the mushroom operation, Cam pbe ll operates two mushroom plants in Manitoba, both of which are profitable , both of which provide only a very lim ited portion of their output to the Campbell Soup plant. In fact, Campbell Soup is im porting mushrooms from British Colu mb ia in order to provide mushrooms for their soup operation in Manitoba, because the quality of their mushrooms produced in the two mushroom fi rms here, near Portage la Prair ie , are in fact of sufficien t quali ty as to be sold in the fresh market almost exclusively. Those two plants, Mr.

Deputy Chairman, the company has offered for sale as a result basically of

November 15 ,19 90 LEG ISLAT IVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 12 08 their closure of the soup plant here and the fact that they will not have the management on site that they would not normally have had. There is no expectation of (

a) closure or (

b) job loss of any signi ficance related to any potential sale of those plants. We are watching that situa tion to ensure that they continue, and there is no expectation that they will not. Agai n, we have seen some plant closures, Mr. Deputy Chair man, over the past year, none of which we were very happy about, but at the same ti me, you have to look at the reasons why they closed.

You have to look at, for instance, the Ogli vie Oats situati on, which is one that was very long and loudly touted in the news media, where you had a plant that was 12 0 years old and had no signi ficant new investment placed in that plant in a great many years. The fact of the matter, it was the only remaining plant in North Americ a to grind using mil lstones as opposed to more modern technology. Mr. Deputy Chairman, when that plant closed, it was closed because of the fact that it had become obsolete .

A new plant providing the capac ity required in the Canadian market was constructed , or is being constructed in Ontario, something that we again would rather have had happen here in Manitoba, but nonetheless, is being constructed in Canada, not in the United States, and has to do wit h the competitive ness of the company and the fact that they need to use modern technology in order to remain competitive .

Now, in te rms of competitiv eness, if being competitive in a market is construed to mean that the Free Trade Agreement caused the closure of the plant, you know, I have to wonder, but the fact of the matter is, our companies will have to become competitive . Whether or not there was a Free Trade Agreement, they will have to be competitive . We cannot, as Premier Rae from Ontario has indi cated, buil d walls around this country. We cannot exist on that basis any more. lt is a global market, and we have to be competitive . Mr. Storle: Mr.

Dep uty Chair man, I recognize that it certai nly may be counterproductive to buil d walls around our country, but certainly some countries, including countries li ke Japan, have succeeded quite well with walls around their country. In fact, there are still substanti al walls around countries lik e Japan. However, we had this discussion yesterday; no one is recommending that we build walls.

What we are suggesting is that the agreement went far beyond the question of teari ng down tariff walls, was very broadly based and , from the point of view of many, ill considered in terms of the universal nature of approach in terms of tariffs generally. The Min ister also commented that plants do close from time to time for a lot of diff erent reasons, including competitive pressure, but also because of reasons of lack of substantial investment in new technology, and no one argues that happens.

The question is, when those plants close for whatever reason, it could be because they are in an expansion mode and requir e new premis es. When they expand, what keeps them in Manitoba? What insures us, or what motivates them to stay in Manitoba? lt is quite apparent that many of the companies that have moved have not gone out of business, but have changed the location of their enterprise , are consoli dating acti viti es, and that consolidation is going to go on elsewhere.

That is the real long- term concern, not that we cannot compete, but that by giving away some advantages we had as a country, we are going to ensure that people do not locate to this part of the world. In terms of the food processing industry, can the Min ister indic ate whether there are any plans afoot by any of the major food processors in the province to locate here? Is there anything that the Sectoral Development Group has been working on in terms of new initiatives? Can the Min ister indi cate whether the investment in the new Carnation plant has been completed?

Has the new Carnation project been completed, and what has been the outcome of that investment? Mr. Ernst: The last question fir st, Carnation is in the final year of its expansion plans. Investment is taking place, and we are working with them in other areas, such as the ir rigation of growing potato product for their plants. They have been unable up to now to get 1 00 percent of their product for that pla nt out of Manitoba because of the drought conditions we have experienced over the past while. We are working with them on an irrigation plan to hopefully bring that up to their desir ed levels.

In terms of addi tional. investment, Can-O ats has located in Portage la Prairie , has set up a mi lling facil ity there.

1209 LEG ISLAT IVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA November 15 , 1990 Dominion Malting has, I think, almost doubled the siz e of their operations here, because they are now selling a malting barley into the Japanese market, which is something that we are very pleased about. We will continue to see that expanding. ln fact, some consideration is being giv en to a further expansion because of the very increased amount of busi ness they have been able to sell into that market.

Schwans, which is a Minn esota-based food processing company, is a dir ect result of initiatives by this department and is now prepared to move into southern Manitoba, so that we are seeing some activity occur in that area. Mr. Storle : I have just two related questions, I guess. Number one, we talked about the Carnation plant, the final stage of the investment taking place this year. Could the Minis ter indi cate the number of people who would be employed, are employed, or were employed in the Carnation plant in 19 85 versus the number of people employed as a result of this investment?

The other question was-how do you spell this food processing- Mr. Emst : S-c-h-w-a- n. • (1 450) Mr. Storle: Can the Min ister ind icate whether the de par tm ent is put ti ng together an indus trial development assistance package for this group? What is the scope of this operation once it is in place? Mr. Emst : With respect to the Carnation situation, order of magnitude there before was a little over 400 , and today approximately 500 . I do not have exact numbers. With regard to Schwan's, just let me consult for a moment. The correct name is Schwan's Canada Inc.

The investment on their part was $2.8 mi llion for the creation of 29 new jobs in which there is no Government investment present or contemplated. Their operations are basical ly processing of meat and dair y products and dis tribution of those products throughout southern Manitoba. Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. Bonlface): The lnterlake Pack ers in St. Lauren t, Man itob a, went in to receivership some ti me ago. Is there anything that has developed further with funding of this packers that went into receivership ? Mr.

Ernst: lnterlake Packers was funded by the Communities Economic Development Fund, not by the de partment directly. lt is my understanding that there-and it comes from something I read in the paper-was another group, I beli eve, interested in starting it up ag ain, particularly now since the closure of the Brandon kill faci lity. Mr. Gaudry: So Industry and Trade has not been involved at all si nce the last report that we have seen in the paper where they were waiting for the Government to intervene and make a decision whether they were to reopen? Mr.

Emst : As I indi cated, it was the Communities Economic Development Fund who had involvement in that, for which the Min ister of Northern and Native Affairs (Mr. Downey) is the Minis ter responsible. The Commu nities Economic Developmen t Fund ope rates out of Thompson, not out of our departm ent. Mr. Gaudr y: In Adminis trative Support, I see there is an increase of $24,000 and you are showing a staff of three and no changes, what is the $82,600 to $1 06,600.00? Mr. Emst: I am sorry, can you refer exactly to Mr. Gaud ry : Page 27 in Administrative Support. Mr. Emst : That is in the Supplementary Estimates? Mr.

Gau dry: Yes. Mr. Emst : Mr. Deputy Chairman, I am informed that three staff this year are reti ring from Government service and there are certai n benefits available to civil servants when they retire and this money will serve to meet those needs. Mr. Storl e: Would the Mini ster indic ate who those individ uals were? Mr. Emst : Mr. Deputy Chair man, I am advised there are two people retiring. Sophia Nelson and Millie Dum as. Mr. Storl e: Mr. Deputy Chair person, we had dealt with the food processing. I thought my colleague had otli er questions in the food processing area, other than the lnterlake Packers.

The electronics and informatics sectors, I wonder if the department has any role to play currently in the lnfoTech Centre on Ness? Mr. Ernst : By all means, lnfo Tech is an integral part of the operations of our department now. Si nce the Member was in Government, with the amalgamation of Industry, Trade and Technology and Busi ness Development and Tourism, the edu cati onal component of lnfoTech, that is the computer labs,

November 15 ,19 90 LEG ISLAT IVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 12 10 the dev elopmen t of com puter softw are for edu cational purposes and the lik e, has been transferred to the Department of Education, where it probably belonged in the first place as far as the education technology area is concerned. As far as support for software companies, liais on with the manufacturers of computer products in Manitoba and so on is continued on by the busi ness side of lnfoTech. Mr. Storle: Two things, No. 1 there were a number of software companies producing, in some cases, educational software.

I assume they are still part of the depar tment's program ming at lnfoTech. I wonder if the Min ister can indi cate whic h software companies are currently using the facilities, which companies currently have agreements with the department to provide research, develop products, and what those products migh t be currently? Mr. Emst : Mr. Deputy Chair man, first of all, we are not in the business of renting out space to people to operate out of the Into Tech Centre.

The Department of Education may in fact be dealing wit h software companies, working closely with them on specific educational packages, but our involvement is dealing virtually with any software company in the province and we provide technology and commercializ ati on assistan ce. We provide trade assistance in term s of marketing the ir packages and their software. We work with them and when we have ide ntification of a need and ide ntificati on of a supplier of that need, tryi ng to put them together to provide a solution.

We also are working wit h, for instance, Unisys, which is a major manufacturer of both defence products and office products here in Manitoba, as well as of course to the Health Industries Initia tive where they are running their hospital program that was entered into by the former Government. Mr. Storle: The Min iste r has not been very specific to this point.

I am wondering whether the Min iste r can indi cate what projects- first maybe answer the question-if I understood the Min ister's remarks correctly there is no research going on, the compani es are not using the space perhaps the same way as some other companies are using the new Manufacturing Technology Institute at the NCR building. So there is no research going at lnfoTech. What projects are currently contemplated and what is the Government's involvement in those specific projects? Mr. Ernst: Mr.

Deputy Chairman, we can provide a list if you li ke of all the software companies that we are currently working with if that-1 do not have a lis t here and we would be prepared to provide that at some future point, but we are not at the present time in the basis of funding research for software programs through lnfoTech, if that is what the Member was after. * (1 500) Mr. Storle: Mr. Deputy Chairp erson, I was trying to sort of pin down what role lnfoTech is actually playing in terms of Sectoral Development.

If it is playing some sort of salesperson role, that is one role; if it is playing a partner in terms of the development of software then that is entirely another role. What I am looking for is not only a li st of the companies that currently have some form of agreement with the Government of Manitoba with respect to lnfoTech, but looking for an explanation of what programs, what projects, what those projects entai l. So if the Min ister will provide that in writi ng, then we can leave that section. Mr. Ernst: Mr.

Deputy Chairm an, I should also point out that under the Information Technology Branch, which is separate from lnfoTech, that we do have some agreements with companies such as Wang, for this building. We have a project with Linnet Graphic s International in the development of an integ rated Wang based geographic information system, whic h is currently in the second of three phases. We are working towards an agreement with Comcheq Services to provide some add itional technology development uti lizing the pilot project within the Government and things of that nature.

So just so we do not get any mi si nformati on our miscues here, under Information Technology we do have some agree ments ; not under lnfoTech, lnfoTech is a support organization at the present. Mr. Storle: The more the Minister talks, the more it looks lik e there is dupli cation here of intent, if not effort. My question then following on that is, the original proposal was-it seemed at least that the companies: Apple and Commodore and Unisys or whatever actually provided some financial support for the lnfoTech centre itself.

I am wondering , what is the current share of contribution from the companies that are involved in lnfoTech? Are there any left? Have those agreements expir ed? If so, what is the share of the Government in respect to the operating costs of that centre?

12 11 LEG ISLATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA November 15 , 19 90 Mr. Emst: The Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) is quit e correct in his comments tha t ther e is dupl ication of service when you refer to lnfoTech and the Information Technology Branch. lt is the same thing . My apologies.

With regard to the contracts that were previously held by lnfoTech with the supplier s of computer manufactured products, we had contracts with Unisys and IBM and all those things that were entered into previously. lt was there to demonstrate the equ ipm ent, by and lar ge, and software programming associated with that equipment to educational instit utions. That is still going on, but that is the part that has been spun off to the Department of Educati on, as opposed to remaini ng under the lnfoTech or Information Technology Branch, whic hever you wish to choose.

The current lnfoTech aspects related to our department are dealing in a support measure for the informatics industry in the province. The education

part is spun off to Education. Mr. Storle: I feel a lot better knowing there is no duplic ation going on. If memory se rves me correctly, the lnfoTech centre was also serving the small busi ness market. In fact, there were accounting packages, accounting software , marketi ng software, se lf-e du cation programs being created. Where are those now being looked after, or are there any left? Mr. Ernst: We no longer provide that service dir ectly to small busi ness as a department.

Evolution in the industry over the past period of time has created all ki nds of support sector compani es wit hin the private sector to provide those kinds of services. There is a myr iad of com puter com panies, com puter con sulti ng comp anies, small char te red accou ntancy firms and things of tha t nature avai lable in the priv ate sector to provide the consultation service to small business. lt was determined that the taxpayer need not continue to fund that aspect of the department, and as a result it no longer does. Mr.

Storle: My assumption is that in fact with the amalgama tion of the Department of Busi ness Development and Tourism , Industry, Trade and Technology, small business is the ultima te loser in this. Some of the support systems that were in place are no longer there, and perhaps we are going to pay the price as we head into this deepening recessi on. Ti me will only tell. If I mi ght, I would lik e to move to another area.

The Sec toral Developm ent refe rence in the Estimates says "identifies a market's investment opportunities to selected industrial development prospects both with in and outside Manitoba," which leads me to ask the question: Has your Deputy Minis ter led you on a junket to Hong Kong and Japan yet? Mr. Ernst: First of all, I want to indic ate to the Member for Flin Ron (Mr. Storie) that his allegations with respect to the small business component are in error. In fact, we do provide. We will get to that in due course at the Business Resource Centre.

Certain actual aspects of delivery of service by the Government need not always be delivered by the Government. Every program that is instituted need not be there forever. Someti mes the needs decline, sometimes there is avai labil ity of other resources in the community, and Government ought not to be competing with its own taxpayers and its own job creators in the private sector. From ti me to ti me programs will come along and programs will dis appea r, and he need not read into that any less support for small business in the province than he is presently trying to do. With respect to the second question, yes.

Mr. Storle: I was only speaking quite faceti ously, I kno w tha t those trade mi ssions, as we euphemis tic ally call them, can be quite valuable, emphasis on the "can. n Yes, Mr. Deputy Chai rperson, to the Member for Fort Rouge, I too have been a part of those and I am wondering whe ther the Min iste r can indi cate currently whether there are any brigh t prospects that have developed as a result of those missions to either of those parts of the world. Over the last several years, a decade perhaps, there has been an increasing level of investment from Hong Kong.

I am wondering if the Minis ter can indicate what the current clima te is in Hong Kong, given the Tiananmen Square incident, and whether we are seei ng an increased investment as a result of that uncertainty. I am wondering whether the Min ister can indi cate whether there is any ongoing investigation of silic on based industries resulting from Japanese interests in the province.

November 15 ,1 990 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANIT OBA 1212 Mr. Ernst: Mr. Deputy Chairman, many questions were raised there. As the Member is aware , the depar tment maintains an office in Hong Kong staffed by three people at present, an increase of one over previous years. We have in fact -(interjection)-I am sorry? An Honourable Member: Do you get there once a year? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Deputy Chairman, if the Opposition lets us out of the House.

The Department does maintain an office there and is acti vely working througho ut Southeast Asia-Korea, Japan, Taiwan , Phili ppines , right through to Sin gapore on both entrepreneu rial investment and immigrant investor financing as well as trade opportunities by our own manufacturers here to try and have our products distri buted more widely throughout Southeast Asia. We have had some successes, we have some on the burner at the moment that are very hot prospects if you like.

Certainly the investm ent by Minebea Corporati on , a large conglom erate basically of Japanese manufacturers, branched out for the first time into Manitoba investing some $25 million in the lnte rlake in a hog breeding facility. Once they have genetically altered the ir breeding stock to a point where the meat that they produce is appropriate to the Japanese market, then they will in fact be expanding into the kill and processing and shipping of fresh pork to Japan from Manit oba, which is quite an exciting prospect and one that we are very interested in.

In addition to that, they are also looking now at a second investment in the Province of Manitoba which is -(interjection)-well , my Jewish friend from Crescentwood is perhaps offended ; nonet heless , those not of his persuasion, of course, do consume large quantities of pork, ham, bacon, and pork chops and all kinds of things, spareribs. Mr.

Deputy Chairman , it is something that we are very pleased about. *( 1510 ) lt is our first major investment of a Japanese company in Manitoba. lt is a signal, I think, and certainly one that we are promoting throughout contact with other companies from Japan that there is a good home in Manitoba for their industry. Minebea itself produces about 2,400 different products manufactured in factories throughout the world and they are looking now at a second investment. As an example, Minebea Corporation produces all of the electronic speakers for Sony and Hitac hi.

When you buy a Sony piece of audio equipment in fact the speaker is produced by Minebea Corporation. While not many people have heard of Minebea Cor pora tion, they are in fact a very large manufacturing operation and do produce for other companies . They make almost all the keyboards for computers, as another example. So we are working closely with them to seek a second investme nt. They are quite interested and are proceeding in that area.

We are also dealing with several other people in terms of larger investments from Southeast Asia, as well as the ongoing entrepreneu rial immigrant program and the immigrant investor program, which we are promoting as well. In 19 89, we had 35 new entrepreneurs visaed for residence in the Province of Manitoba, bringing with them something in the area of $20 mill ion in inv estme nt. We have identifi ed, in the first six months of 1990 , 20 new entrepreneurs to come to Manitoba totallin g investments of about $6 million so far.

The biggest single problem we have there is the inability of the Canadian Comm ission in Hong Kong to process visa applications for people. lt takes up to two years now to get a visa approved and so it is becoming more and more difficult as more and more people seek to exit Hong Kong and seek another home. As the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) indicated, Tiananmen Square has had a marked effect on the attitude of the people in Hong Kong. What was, I guess, initially contemplated in 19 84, when Mrs.

Thatcher signed the agreement with the Government of China to cede the colony back to China in 19 97, there was a mood of optim ism that because the Chinese Government of the Day had said, we are going to leave everything as it is for 50 years. There will not be any changes. We need this outlet on the world, and so on. With the dis cussion that ensued from that between 19 84 and 19 89 on the basic law, that is what wi ll govern Hong Kong after the Colo ny is ceded back to China, has started to create a lot of concerns. What they said in 1 984, that everything is

1213 LEG ISLAT IVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA November 15 , 1990 going to be the same, was not what was happening when they started to negotiate the basic law. So there was great concern and then following that was Tiananmen Square, which basi cally said to the people of Hong Kong, you cannot trust what the Government of China will say , and that again caused a flurry of concern.

The problem, of course, is that if it takes two years to come to Can ada from Hong Ko ng, being processed through the Canadian Commission, and it takes six months to go to Australia, you can see pretty qui ckly sometimes what happens in terms of people's abi li ty and desir es to get out of Hong Kong, if they get the commitment early .

We have had ongoing di scussions with Canada Immi gration to try and see what we can do to uti lize our office to speed up the process, that is, if we can conduc t cer tain activi ties in advance of the appl ications being ma de to the Canadian commission , then perhaps we can see those visas being issued a lot quicker. So we are working on that and we have 500 or so, I think, when I was last there in April, active files of people who are looking to come out of Hong Kong, looki ng to come to Manitoba, but the abil ity to process them through the commission has been a major problem. Mr.

Storle: I thank the Min ister for that synopsis. I had also asked the additional question about the Japanese interest in silic a-based industries. I am wondering whether there have been any further contacts with companies lik e Mitsubishi and C. ITOH who had indic ated an interest-and a couple of others that I cannot remember off the top of my head-in Manit oba because of the availabi li ty of silic a and cesiu m and material that mi ght be used in the producti on of superconductors and those ki nds of things and the availabil ity of cheap energy, which is one of the main raw materia ls.

I am wonderi ng whether the Min iste r can tell us whether there has been any progress made on those ki nds of dis cussions. Mr. Ernst: Mr. Deputy Chairman, of course as the Member knows, Dow Corning is in the process at the moment of building a $1 0 mi lli on pilot plant in East Selkirk to deal with those issues. We have had ongoing discussions and I think are some dis tance down the road. Of course, the Manit oba Energy Authority also, apart from our department, deals with high energy intensive uses.

As a matter of fact, the President of the Manitoba Energy Authority and one of my senior staff are presently in Japan having some dis cussions with potential investors here in Manitoba with regard not only to high energy intensive uses, but some outside of that particu lar sphere. So while no concrete contracts, if you will, or investments have been made apart from Dow Coming, we are continuing to work wit h those companies and there is continuing interest.

The oriental outlook, shall we say, is generally extremely cautious and it takes some time to develop a rapport or confidence with those people, particularly when it comes to an investment of signific ant magnitude in a foreign country. So I say we are continuing to work with them and we do have some excellent prospects, in our view, and we hope to be able to secure some of those in the not too dis tant future. Mr.

Storle: The Dow Corning agreement, and I know the Minis ter is aware the prelimin ary agreement was signed by the Manitoba Energy Authority when the previous Government was in office and cert ainly should acknowledge that Government's role in ensuring that project came to fruition . We can only hope that they proceed from a pilot project to a plant that is perhaps world scale. Mr. Ernst: That makes my point somewhat in spades in that these things often take a terribly long ti me by the ti me you proceed from ini tia i contact through to actually seeing something on the ground. Mr. Storle: For sure.

I am prepared to pass this sectio n, Mr. Dep uty Ch ai rpe rson . Are my colleagues agreeable? Mr. Depu ty Chairm an: Ite m 2.( b)(1 ), $1 , 15 7 ,300 --pass; 2.(b)(2) , Investment Promotion, $811 ,30 0-- pass. * (1 520) Mr. Ernst: Would the committee indulge me for two mi nutes while I speak to Mr. Leitch about an issue? I will be right back. Mr. Deputy Chairman: Well, we can continue to pass this stuff while he is gone. Do you want to pass the nex t one whil e we are ther e and do the resolution? Shall we pass the next one and do the resolution, or do you have some questions on 2.(

c) Financial Programs? An Honourable Member: Yes, I do have some questions. Mr. Deputy Chairman: We are now dealing with item 2.(c)( 1) Salaries, $542,700 -- shall the item pass?

November 15 ,19 90 LEG ISLAT IVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 12 14 Mr. Storle: Which it em are we dealing with ? We are still in Investment Promotion. Mr. Dep uty Chairman: We passed tha t one already. ! called it, you passed it. I mean, if you want we can go back to it. lt is passed. No. 2.( b)(1 ) and then 2.(b)(2) so now you want to go to Investment Promotion 2.(b)( 2) ? Okay, that is where you are. lt is already passed, but you can discuss it. Mr. Storle: In my desir e to co-operate we passed this too quickly. I apologiz e . I have just two que st ions.

In the supp lemen tary in formation package it talk s both about the Hong Kong office, which we have di scussed , and the Investment Promotion program along with the Busi ness Immi gration program, we have di scussed that. Can the Min iste r indic ate what crite ria are being used currently for indus trial agreements, investment promotion agree ment? Are there establ is hed crite ria that are used or are these ad hoc, based on the nature of the program? How is that decided ? Mr. Ernst: That would fall int o the Financial Programs division of the department, which will be a subsequent item.

There are no di rect things done under Investment Promoti on. Mr. Storle: Did I hear the Min iste r say, there are no di rect things done? An Honour able Member: Di rect financial instruments. Mr. Storle: Mr. Dep uty Chairpers on, I apprecia te that. By reading it is to promote investment I assumed that this was the area where they would also not actually fund it, but develop a criteria for funding . If that is in a di fferent section, we can do it later. The other question I had was relative to the promoti onal offices.

The Hong Kong office was sp onsored in part, or supp orte d in par t by Richardson Greenshields at one ti me. Is there any involvement relationship between our office in Hong Kong and Richardson Greenshield s? There was an office at one ti me establishe d in Holland, I believe. Is there still such an office , and what is the staffing there? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Deputy Chair man, with respect to Hong Kong, origin ally when the office was est ablished, in '84 I beli eve it was , or '85, Richardson Greenshields sublet some of their office space to the provincial Government.

They provided some adminis trative support, typing and things of that nature, photocopy services and so on, to us. Si nce that ti me, because of space reallocations within the same building and so on, we have now relocated our office separately from Richardson Greenshields, but it is still in the same building. There is no di rect involvement any more. The office has gr own suf ficie ntly tha t we are able to accommodate our own administrative services now. There was a two- year pi lot contract in Holland with one Anna Maria Magnifico.

The department tried a two-year pi lot project with this lady on a contract basis to provide economic development services in Europe. That contract was termi nated in 19 90. In April of 19 90 , the contract expired and was not renewed. We have subsequently contracted with a firm in the United Ki ngdom to carry on those kinds of services. We are also looking hopefully at a further contract with the investment promotion company in Germany, but that is not yet final ized . Mr. Storle: The only other question I had in this

section was related to the relationship between I guess the Province of Manitoba, other provinces and the federal Government on free trade wit hin the country. I know that the First Min ister (Mr. Filmon) announced ag ree ment, and I am won dering whether we could have some detail from the Min ister on the nature of the agreement and what teeth this agreement has to prevent provinces from dis barring or disallowing competition in one way or another by regulation or policy, whatever. How is this going to be monitored and what teeth are in this new agreement? Mr. Ernst: Mr.

Deputy Chairman , there are actually two agreements, one amongst the four western Canadian provinces, which goes substant ially fur ther in terms of its break down of those in terprovincial trade barrie rs basical ly relati ng to-the trade barriers per se are barriers created by Governments, not on the basis of tariffs as they are with foreign powers, but on the basis of Government pr ocuremen t and Government grant funding programs.

In terms of western Canada, we have gone some considerable dis tance in terms of Government procurement and Government construction so that there will not be preferential treatment given sort of on a buy Manitoba or a buy Saskatchewan type of basis. However it does not yet include Crown corporations. lt does not yet include hospitals or mun icipal ities or juri sdic tions whe re the Government does not have a dir ect hands-on control of the operation as opposed to that which it

1215 LEG ISLAT IVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA November 15, 1990 does di rectly by Government procurement. That is now in the second year of its existence. I have not seen the review. There is to be a review at the end of that. I have not yet seen that. lt should be available , I guess, almost any time now. From all reports that I have from private sector companies bidding and so on, it has worked, I think, reasonably well. There lik ely will be gli tches.

There lik ely will be situations where it did not work, but I think, by and large, it will work on a western Canadian basis and that is the prim ary interest of our suppl iers here. Their bigges t markets are in western Canada. In terms of the national agreement, that is the signing page of the agreement, not all signatures are yet present on it and in fact Mr. Allison from my department is in the process of travelling about the country picking up the last few sig natures on the agreement, on the national agreement.

The national agreement was a long time in coming, and it is very lim ited overall , in terms of its scope, but for the- and I attended, in the last two and a half years, God knows how many meeti ngs on this particular agreement. Because of the diverse nature of the country, because of a wide variety of individ ual interests, from Newfoundland to British Columbia, it has been difficult to try and push all of those thing s into one package, but the breakthrough has occurred. The First Min isters have agreed and we are in the process of finalizi ng the agreement.

We have three signatur es left to go and the agreement will be in place. Agai n it deals primarily with the Government procurement of goods only, not services. I think there is a limit of over the sum of $25,000 per contract. As I say, it is a start, and something that has been long overdue, and I thi nk all of us want to push toward eventually elimi nating all barriers that occur across the country in terms of free movement of goods and services back and forth. Mr. Storle: Pass. • (1 530) Mr. Deputy Chairman: Now we will move on to item (

c) Financial Progr ams: (1 ) Salaries $542 ,700 -pass ;

(2) Oth er Expenditu res $39,400-pass;

(3) Programs $6,758,700.00 . Mr. Storle: I assume this is where I ask the question about criteria in terms of the Manitoba Industri al Opportunities section, so perhaps the Mini ster can, if he can, table any set of crit eria that he mi ght have or advise us what the crit eria are and how they are implemen ted. Mr. Ernst: Mr. Dep uty Chairman, because of the complex nature of most of these major projects that are provided assistance for under this program, there is no applica tion form.

To contin ue, there is no appli cation form, there is no specific set type crit eria, because of the nature of the whole program and the fact industries differ substantially one to the other. There are, however, some broad general criteria that do apply. Number one, of course, there has to be a sign ifican t investment; No. 2, it has to provide at least 50 jobs or more. We limi t assistance by and large to loans. Now they may be interest forgivable, partially interest forgivable, low interest or other kinds of loans, but nonetheless they are all repayable and for which we require security.

We do not any longer make loans for these kinds of activities without taki ng security of some form sufficien tly adequate in the mi nd of the Government to secure our investment. Mr. Storle: I antici pated the remark that it would be ind ividual, that there would not be any specific crit eria, which leads me to ask the questi on, how can the Minis ter then reduce the commitm ent under this program unless, of course, he is anticipa ti ng what we have sugges ted is happening , that the opportunities in Manitoba are coming fewer and farther between?

There is a significant reduction in the commitment, year over year, and if there is no crit eria for it, how realistic is the projection? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Deputy Chairman, in any item such as this, it is very diffi cult to compare, year over year, one number agai nst the other. it is difficult because what happens at any period of time, in any given budget year, the numbers will reflect what has happened over the past five or six or seven years.

As projects come through the system and the loans are either repaid or whatever, it will depend on what you add on and the cash flow of the add-ons as opposed to those who have passed through the system and are now financi ally paid off. lt will depend in part on what interest rates are, because the interest costs borne by these programs are also incl uded in those numbers. I must say also that we try not to provide money wherever we can. We would much rather have a company invest here on its own hook than have the taxpayers support it. Sometimes it is necessary to

November 15, 1990 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 1216 push somebody into making that investment, and support from the Government is the necessary push. In other cases it would not occur unless that assis tance is provided, but we are atte mpting wherever possible to not holus-bolus pour out the money unless it is necessary to see something occur. When investments are made by the taxpayer through these programs, we try and ensure they are protected as much as possible. Mr. Storle: Mr. Dep uty Chair per son, it is an interesti ng dilem ma for the Government.

I wonder just whether this reflects a recognition of the fact that we are entering a much more di fficul t period in terms of attracti ng investment generally because of the clima te and because of perhaps free trade. lt is also interesti ng that many of the other programs, including the Venture Capital Program which is one of the programs that seems to be doing quite we ll, of course were put in place by the previous Government.

I am wondering whether the Minis ter will undertake to provide this committee with detai ls of the companies that have been assisted, for example, under the Manitoba Industrial Opportunities Program; how much that assi stance was; what form the assi stance took; and what crit eria or what results are expected fro m this investment for each of those programs, as outlined under (c)(3)? Mr. Ernst: Certainly, not right now obviously, but through the next period of ti me, we are prepared to prepare a li st of those companies that have been assisted and so on.

Let me clarify something so you do not look at the two numbers that are incl uded in the Esti mates. That is for the year ending March 31 , 19 90 at $7.5 millio n and for the year end of '91 , $6.7 mi llion, as being the total program. That is the cost of operati ng the program. What we have provided for in both years is a $1 5 mill ion loan requirement for the program so that we draw agai nst that as required. As the loans are drawn down, then the interest costs accrue. Those are incl uded in these amounts.

So in fact our operating costs are sli ghtly lower this year than last, but that is again dependent upon cash flow and a variety of things. lt is not easily di rectly translatable one year to the next where it can be construed as a cut in program, if you will , one year over the other. I just wanted to clarify that. In terms of the other programs, we will provide those companies with the same assistance. Mr. Dep uty Chair man, I also want to suggest that the Member for Flin Flon's (Mr. Storie) comment about his view of success of the Venture Capital Program has been, by and large, a disaste r.

We are out of the Venture Capital Program, and have been for two years because of significant problems and losses th at occu rred in the Ventu re Capital Program. Mr. Storle: Well, it is interesti ng that perhaps the Minis ter could ide ntify what the major problem with the program was? lt seems to me that investors funded some 65 percent of the costs of that program. One would have assumed that if someone was prepared to invest 65 percent, they would have been reasonably careful. Were there some major problems or is it a couple of projects? Mr.

Ernst: There were some failur es, of course, in busi nesses, which we all anticipa te in any program. lt is not exclusive to anything other than the fact that there is risk involved in creating a business. There has been buy-down by the private sector investors buying out their partners and things of that natu re. Some of us, who have 10 0 pe rcent involvement and to which, you know, are faced with the problem, if you do not sell the Government's interest in it, then they will close it up and thi ngs of that nature, and they caused some problems, as well.

So what you see here is the cost of paying out to balance that program and that will incur for two or three more years until such ti me as the costs of the whole program are elimi nated, or paid off, if you will. * (1 540) Mr. Storle: Then it leads to a question about how the Vision Capit al is structured . What is the Government's or the province's contribution lik ely to be under this, or is it fixed? Can the Minis ter explain how it differs ? Mr. Ernst: As it was announced in the throne speech, in the previous budgets, Vision Capital is the restructured Small Business Growth Fund.

The Small Business Growth Fund was about 52 percent or 54 percent owned by the private sector and 48 per cent owned by the Gover nment. lt was structured under the previous adminis tration.

1217 LEGISLATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA November 15 , 19 90 What we have done is we have taken the Small Busi ness Growth Fund which is managed by a priv ate board and emp loys a priv ate sector manage ment company to run the day to day operations. We have entered into an agreement to lend them $30 mi llion, a portion of which has been put into their hands at the present ti me, and they are operati ng and making investments with that money. Mr. Storle: lt is sti ll operated by a private board? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Deputy Chairman, we have one representative.

My Deputy Min ister sits on the board as he did in the Small Business Growth Fund. Mr. Storle: Can the Minis ter indi cate whether there have been any loans provided through this fund at this point? Mr. Ernst: Yes, there have. I have just recently, as a matter of fact two, three weeks ago, written to the chairman and asked him how progress was coming on their portfolio, and what they had done up to this point. I have not yet received that reply so I cannot give you the specif ics, although I am sure we can get them depending on whatever confidential ity problems are associated with it. Mr. Storle: Mr.

Deputy Chai rman, this it em can pass assumin g that the Minis ter will agree to provide whatever details he can in terms of the Vis ion Cap ital program as he is prepared to do under the other programs. Mr. Ernst: I agree. Mr. Deput y Chairman : (c)

(3) Programs $6,758,700-pass. We are now going to move to (

g) Vision Capit al. No, that is covered under there as well. We are moving to (d )(1 ) Salaries $523 ,00 0-pass ;

(2) Oth er Expe nditu res $1 ,999,900 .00. Mr. Storle: A reduction in Other Expenditures-c an the Min ister indi cate where that Other Expenditu res reduction occurs? Mr. Ernst: That was the question asked by the Member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry) in the House, I belie ve, and to which I indicated to him privately that I would respond when we got to it. There is a series of reasons for that. Just let me reflect here for a moment, Mr. Deputy Chairman. If you wish, there are a considerable number of reasons. If Members are agreeable , I will table this informati on following today's meeting. Mr.

Deputy Chairman : Thank you, Mr. Mi nister. lt is agreed that the Mini ster shall table those answers to that question? (Agreed) Mr. Ernst : Basically, Mr. Deputy Chairman, it has to do with a slower take-up for funding by and large than originally antici pated, but there is some gi ve and take in there whic h will be explained by the review. Mr. Deputy Chairman: Shall ite m (2) $1 ,999,900 pass? Mr. Storle: Just before we do that, Mr. Deputy Chairman, the largest

section of that decrease occurred in the Grants and Transfer Payments section, and I am wondering whether the Mini ster can provide us with some detail on what grants or which companies, which ventures, received money under this program's grants. Again, a li st would be sufficient, and that could be tabled at some future date . (Mr. Ben Sveinson, Acting Chairman, in the Chair) Mr. Ernst: Well, that is fine. I will undertake to do that . The Acting Chairman (Ben Svelnson): 2.(

e) Trade : (1 ) Salaries $1 ,01 3,000-pa ss;

(2) Other Expenditures $855,20 0-pass Mr. Gaudry: This decrease in Other Expenditures from $944 to $855, what is .... Mr. Ernst: Yes, Mr. Acting Chairman, under the previous Government, a contract was entered into with Ecolaire Ltd., to produce the floodgates for the Limes tone Project. In order to have those gates produced in The Pas, a premium was paid on the cost of production by the former Government and the money flowed through this department, through this branch in order to pay for those. Mr. Gaudry: That decrease is reflected in the grants and transfer payments. Am I correct? Mr.

Ernst: Yes, that is correct. The payments have now been completed. The gates are produced and the contract is over, so the reduction has taken place . I am informed, Mr. Acting Chairman, that there is still $23,000 contained here in this year's esti mate to complete the total project. Mr. Storle: Just one question in terms of the trade shows. I am wondering if the Minis ter can indi cate whethe r ther e have been any trade shows supported outside Manitoba. Have we supported busi nesses who attended trade shows, or are we

November 15 ,19 90 LEG ISLAT IVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 12 18 involved in operating trade shows outside of the province? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Acting Chai rman, we have provided 205 individual Manitoba firms with assistance to parti ci pate in trade shows in the U.S., Europe, Mexico, and Japan. We anticipa te this influenced approximately $32 mil lion in total sales for those companies and that economic benefit to Manit oba. Mr. Storle: What was the cost of that support, Mr. Acting Chai rperson? Mr. Ernst: Approximately $21 7,500 .00. Mr.

Storle: Is that just coinciden ce or does that cover the $217 ,500 under grants and transfer payments and other expenditu res? Is that the whole ball of wax? I assume we are fi nished for this year. Mr. Ernst: No, I do not think so. My Deputy Min ister indicat es, yes, we are just about fini shed for this year. Mr. Storle: Well, unless we are creatively financing these things, I guess we are. * (1 550) Mr. Ernst: Yes, we have pretty much expended our bud get. We do have some other assistance programs in terms of sending people to trade shows in which we are not running them or not creati ng a booth ourselves.

We do provide assistance to companies for those trade shows. The Acting Chairman (Ben Svelnson): Shall this ite m pass-pas s; 2.( f)( 1) Busi ness Resource Centre: Salaries $630,4 00 .00. Mr. Storle: There is no increase in staff or at least it does not appear in the Supplementary Estim ates, and I am wondering why the increase is $50 ,000.00. Mr. Ernst: Mr. Acti ng Chairman, I remember last year we introduced the Business Start Program. The program cam e on stream about half way through the year. This is the full year cost now of payi ng the staff associated with the Business Start Program. Mr.

Storle: So the costs do not show up as staff years, or are they subsumed in some staff years that are not filled and they fill them as term positions? How is that done? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Acting Chairman , we added last year two SYs to the branch, a total of now 14 , but those positions were not filled until partway through the year. Mr. Storle: Just two other questions. No. 1, there was a busin ess resource cante r in Dau phin, Manitoba, some years ago, and there is one, I believe, or there was until recently at least one in Brandon.

Are those canters or the one in Brandon still operating, and does the Government have any intention to introduce any other business resource canters around the province? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Acting Chairman, the one in Dauphin was closed as a result of th� r at the time of the merger of the two departments into one in 1 988. The one in Brandon sti ll is operating and there is no intent of changing that. Mr. Storle: Mr. Acti ng Chairper son, the Other Expenditures have increased signi ficantly, and it shows up in Supplies and Services primarily. What does that represent? What is the increase for? Mr.

Ernst: They are primarily related to the Business Start Program. As you may be aware, the Busi ness Start Program contains a signi ficant educational component whereby there are busi ness plan semi nars and whereby some prim ary trai ning for new small entrepreneurs takes place as part of the whole package related to the Busi ness Start Program. So the contracts and fees paid to those instructors and creation of instructional materials and things of that nature fall under that category.

There were some other ancilla ry one- ti me start- up costs as well associated with the creation of the Busi ness Start Program-grap hic design for brochures and forms and things of that nature. Mr. Gaudry: Can the Min ister gi ve us details of how suc cess ful the entre preneu rial ma nagement trai ning and development programs were? Mr. Ernst: Very successful. Mr. Gaudry: Can you give us fig ures? How many started businesses after taking this management trainin g and development program? Mr. Ernst: How specific? Mr.

Gaudry: On page 39, it says 15 00 regis trants per year under entrepr eneurial management tr aining and deve lopm ent pr ogr am in the Supplement. Mr. Ernst: Many of those people were already employed and/or already have a business but apply to the program to take assistance and to broaden their horizons, if you will, or provide some additional educational capabil ities for them. We do not track everybody under those programs. We provide

12 19 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITO BA November 15 , 19 90 informati on, training and assistance in terms of applic ations and run a num ber of dif fe rent assistance programs in that area. Mr. Gaudry: So I understand it would be the same thing then for the 12 0 female entrepreneurs through the year, who were supposed to be finished by June 19 90. You would not have the statistics-it could be some of those women were already in business, and it was just to help them out, to incr ease their productivity or whatever. Mr.

Emst : As I indi cated, it is not always that it is someone says: I would lik e to start a business, and I will go down to the department and sort of start in the program. Many of them have already started or have an idea or have had something on the go for a while and are running into diff icu lties or problems, or seeking additional education and trai ning so that they can carry on or run a better business, if you wi ll, for that period of ti me. There will be some new potential entrepreneurs. Some will never ultima tely take the big step, but that is not something that you can determine in advance.

You have to provide the service and then hope that they are successful. Mr. Gaudry: Have any of these entrepreneurs been helped through grants or loans to continue or to start a business? Mr. Emst : lt is the Business Start Program that is available to them, and that is basical ly what it is for. lt is for new entrepreneurs coming on stream who need some assi stance. lt was identified during the ti me that the task force on women's issues travelled all throughoutthe province. There were a number of concerns expressed tha t women were having difficu lty getting access to capi tal.

Through this program, we are providing that assist ance. Mr. George Hlckes (Point Douglas): lt says here that it provides support for various groups such as the Canadian Council for Native Businesses. How is this done? Mr. Ernst: The dir ector of the Busi ness Resource Centre sits on the board of the Canadian Council for Native Businesses. Mr. Hlck es : Would you know how many Native busi nesses that it has help ed and how many partici pated for the year? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Acting Chairman, we do not discr im inate in the department in terms of keeping statistics for what is Native and what is not Native.

Programs are available to everyone in the province, regardless of their origin. Mr. Hlck es : lt says here an economic development strategy for Manitoba women wi ll be developed by June 19 90. Has that been developed? Mr. Ernst: Yes and no. The strategy is in the final stages of development. lt is antici pated to be presented to Cabine t within the next month or two at the latest. lt has been delayed about six months but we did have a li ttl e event intervening here that caused us all to be able to return here. Mr. Storle: I have just one final question in this area.

There was some discus sion a short while ago of relocating the Business Resource Centre. I assume it is still out on Nia kwa Road. Is that facili ty closed? Where is the Winnipeg Business Resource Centre right now? Mr. Ernst: lt is located at 15 5 Carlton Street. We gave up the space it occupie d on the second floor at Ni akwa Road. We felt it was much better located downtown where there is more access to more people, more centrally located. When the lease expir ed we gave up the space and moved downtown, so it is at 15 5 Carlton. * (1 60_Q) Mr. Storle: Is the Manit oba Research facil ity located out there?

Is that still on Niakwa Road? Was that the Manitoba Research Council or was that ·another one? Mr. Ernst: No, that was Manitoba. Mr. Gaudry: Mr. Acti ng Chairm an, through these loan guarantees to approximately 80 new start-up busi nesses, have there been any failu res in those 80 new start-up businesses since it started? Mr. Ernst: No, Mr. Acti ng Chairman. The Acting Chairman (Ben Svelnson): Shall the item pass? (Pass) The item is accordingly passed. 2.( f)

(2) Business Resource Ce ntre , Other Expenditu res $403 ,400-pass. Resolution 92: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceedin g $1 4,928,200 for Industry, Trade and Touris m, Industry and Trade Division , for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 19 91 -p ass. 3. Technology Division (

a) Industrial Technology: Provides analytical, advisory and support services rela ted to scienc e and technolo gy to further Mani toba's technolo gy-b ased ec onomic develo pmen t, and pr ovides sup port for the Manitoba Centres of Excellence Fund. (1 ) Salaries $402,50 0-pass ;

(2) Other Expenditures $383,800.

November 15, 1990 LEG ISLAT IVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 1220 Mr. Storle: One of the thi ngs Government always tal ks about is obtaining offset for its initia tives in terms of spreading the benefits around to other sectors of our economy. (Mr. Deputy Chairman in the Chair) I am wonderi ng, this strategic procurement

section here talk s about offset benefits from procurement. I am wondering whether the Min ister can identify for us some examples of where there have been offset benefits? The Min ister mentioned the Unisys deal before, and there were supp osedly to be some offset benefits accruing to the province over ti me as Unisys developed. If I recall rightly, it was some hea lth recor ds informa tion tec hnology or information software, whatever.

I wonder if the Mini ster can indi cate whether that has come to pass and whether there are any other offset agreements officially signed between the Government and any in formation technology company? Mr. Ernst: Yes, Mr. Deputy Chairman, I can, and I comment on that. The Unisys agreement expired on August 31 , 19 90 . The Unisys req uirement was to maintain a certain level of employment at their office computer hard disk manufacturing facilit y in St. Boniface, and they more than met their agreement over a period of tim e.

Unisys also is part of . . . that developed a Canadian centre for hospital information systems. They have lived up to that agreement as well and are continuing with both of those, even since the expiry of the agreement. We are working closely with them to ensure that Manitoba continues to enjoy the benefits of both operations. As well, Uni sys operate s a defence plant ma nufac tur ing comput er ope rati on syste ms presently for a variet y of naval applic ations, Canadian frigate program, U.S.

Navy program, in providing the heat and the ligh t ai r-conditionin g systems for those ships manufactured here in Winnipeg. Mr. Storle: Yes, one of the benefits was supposed to be in the marketing of this hospital information system to other jurisdicti ons. That was seen as being a feasi ble offset. I am wondering whether the Minis ter can indi cate whether Unisys is marketing a product that was developed as a result of access to our health records and, ! guess, the exclusive rig hts to develop an information system. Is that actually proceeding? Mr.

Ernst: Unisys is operati ng the Canadian Centre for Health Information Systems here in Manitoba. As they develop the systems, presumably they ma rket the m and not jus t in Man itoba , but elsewhere. They have as well certain contracts with Manitoba hospitals to continue to work toward dev el oping, refining, and expanding those information systems as time goes along, adding more or adding different new technologies and new applic ations that can be utiliz ed in a variety of our health care institut ions, reducing workloads. I happen to tour that centre last summer and they have hand-held computers now.

The nurses can go into the patie nt's room, and instead of looking through charts and writi ng out all kinds of things, simply by maki ng a couple of entries in this hand-held computer it reverts back to the central computer in the file centre of the information system, and so on and so forth. New technologies are advanci ng, and they are doing a great deal in that area. We are pleased with the dir ection it is going, working with them, as time goes along , to ensur e that tech nology gets di sseminated as wide ly as possible. In terms of marketing it, that is up to the company to market the technology.

We are not in the busi ness of marketi ng their technology for them. Mr. Storle: I appreciate the Minis ter's consistency at least; it is always "hands off." The fact is that Unisys was given a tremendous advantage, over other companies, access to our health records to develop this system. Part of the understanding was, part of the intent of that was, not only to stabil ize the production at their production faci lity out on No. 1 Hig hway, but it would also, it was believed, lead to the marketi ng of that technology across Canada.

The real long-term benefit for the province, of course, was if that is successful the jobs and the spin-off would be of benefit to the province. I am a li ttle concerned that the Mini ster seems to say, well, we do not know if they are marketing , because that in fact was what the agreement was all about. They were going to take the information, and the products they developed as a resu!t of that sole access, and market it across the country.

12 21 LEG ISLAT IVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA November 15 , 19 90 At least part of the Min ister's responsibili ty is to find out whether in fact that is being marketed, or are they sim ply using the information and are the new products being delivered from somewhere else? - (1 61 0) Mr. Ernst: Mr. Deputy Chairm an, let us understand what the Centre for Hospital Information Systems is all about. In fact, the hosp ital in formation sys te m technology, basically software, is being developed in the centre in Manitoba creating those jobs.

As that technology is developed, it is imp lemented in Unisys hospital systems, and they were not going to be there developing the technology if it is not being utiliz ed. As they develop the technology, it gets diss emi nated through the Unisys system, and the job creation activity is not-once a piece of software is developed, it is developed. lt is the continuing, growing, advancing of technology and the creation of new software and so on that is going on in that centre at Polo Park on a regular basis.

So it is happening and has more than fulfilled the requirements of the agreement whi ch has now expired, but whic h is still continuin g, regardless of whether there is an agreement in place or not. Mr. Storle: No, I have no further questi ons on that section. Mr. Deputy Chairman: We are dealing with item 3.(a)

(2) Other Expenditu res $383,800-pass . Item 3.(b)( 1) Salaries $371 ,500 for Information Technolo gy- pass;

(2) Other Expenditu res $1 45, 500-pass. (

c) Grant Assistance $2,71 4,700.00. Mr. Storle: Mr. Deputy Chairp erson, that grant, $2,71 4,000, is a grant dir ectly to the Manitoba Research Council. Does the Research Council then grant some of that money or is all of that money used by the Manitoba Research Council dir ectly? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Deputy Chairman, the grant is made to the Manit oba Research Council. That does not represen t all of the income of the Man itoba Research Council.

About half of its income is self-gen erated; in other words, it goes out and gets contracts for development work and research work and so on, on behalf of private sector companies.

Their mandate is to increase that, as a matter of fact, to go out and seek greater contracts, greater support from the private sector for whom, quite frankly, the Manit oba Research Council was fo unded and operated in the first place , to provide assistance to Manit oba indus try in terms of technology and research and development where they cannot maintain it on their own, or it is uneconomic to maintain it in its own shop, but it can be contracted for, and that is what the Manitoba Research Council does.

The Government's contri buti on, if you wil l, is toward assistance to those companies who are fledgling and who need that assistance, yet are not able to pay a great deal for it. Mr. Storle : The in dividual agr eemen ts for assistance are signed by the Manitoba Research Council and the company, not thro ugh the de pa rtm ent. So my question was , does the Research Council actually allocate this money? The answer is yes. Mr. Ernst: Mr.

Deputy Chairman, I am not sure of all of the actual details, individual expenditure of every dollar within the Research Council, other than provided in their audited statements and report but, by and large, it goes to maintain their facili ties and their ongoing operations. They have staff, they have professional staff, chemists, engi neers, et cetera on staff, they carry out a lot of this work. There will be certai n other expenditu res associated with that as well, plus the adminis trative component of the operation.

The indi cation is that they are not allocating grants to anybody particular ly; it is for their operations and the contracts they get. Mr. Deputy Chairman: (

c) Grant Assi stance $2,71 4,7 00-pass. 4. Canada-Mani toba Economic Development Planning Agreement. There is no bud get ary amount, but it falls under the Resolution 93. Resolution 93. RESOLV ED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $4,01 8,000 for Industry, Trade and Tourism , Technology Division for the financial year ending the 31 st day of March, 19 91 . Mr. Storle: Mr.

Deputy Chairman, this is just another exam ple of the Gove rnm en t mi ssing an opportu nit y-a nd I know tha t this is a join t venture-but missing an opportunity to invest some real money in planning, in developing a strategic plan for the province. The Government still seems to be ad hoeing in the main and despite promises from the First Min ister (Mr. Filmon), through two elections now, to present the people of Manitoba with an economic plan, we really do not have one.

November 15 ,1 990 LEG ISLAT IVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 12 22 That is nowhere more evide nt than norther n Manitoba. Mr. Ernst: The Member is entitled to his opinion. Mr. Dep uty Chairman: Shall the res olut ion pass-pass. Item 5. Tou rism Division : (

a) Administration (1 ) Salaries $203,300.00. Mr. Ernst: Being as how we are going to sit straight through until six, do we want to take 1 0 mi nutes right now and stretch our legs, and do some certain other urgent calls of nature? Mr. Deputy Chairman: What is the wish of the committ ee? Mr. Storle:: We will take a 10 -minu te recess. Mr. Deputy Chairman: A 10 -minu te recess? Mr. Storle: let us make it five mi nutes. Mr. Deputy Chairman: Five mi nutes, that is fine. *** The House took recess at 4:1 7 p.m . After Recess The House resumed at 4:25 p.m . Mr. Deputy Chairman: Call the meeting to order.

Does the Honourable Min ister have any staff that he would lik e to introduce at this time? Mr. Ernst: Yes, if I could, Mr. Deputy Chairman. The Deputy Minister, of course, was introduced earlier and has been with us through the considerati on of Estimates so far. I would also lik e to introduce the Acti ng Assistant Deputy Minis ter of Tourism and Direc tor of Marketing, Hubert Mesman, on my left here ; Bill Barbaza, who is the Di rector of Tourism Development; and Barb Dryden, who is the Tourism Direc tor of Adminis tration. The Member for Crescentwood (Mr.

Carr) asked a series of questi ons yesterday in his opening remarks. I have some responses for him whic h may tend to speed things up a li ttle bit, if I can go through them. The first was: Where are we headed in the tourism industry? We have experie nced some very steady growth over the past few years. Prelim inary Tourism Canada stats indic ate total tourism receipts for Manitoba reached just under $1 billion in 19 89, and dir ect employment exceeded some 24,000 people. There are a number of public and priv ate initiatives underway to support the future di recti on of tourism in Manitoba.

Notably, we are currently negotiating a new federaVprovincial cost-shared tourism agreement of some $1 0 mi llion over the next five years for tourism work within the province. We have sig ned along with the western provinces a memorandum of unde rsta nding on resear ch, industry job standards and certification in marketi ng. There has been over the past period of ti me a lack of standards in terms of the ind ustry itself and transfers of standards back and forth, so we are in the process now of the four western pro

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-1-25a
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Volume / chapter	35th 1st hansardpdf 25a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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