Manitoba Hansard — 1 June 1999 (Sitting 36, 36th Legislature, 5th Session)

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Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

"'""': ... · .. . ·· ..... -� Fifth Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLIX No. 36 -1:30 p.m., Thesday, June 1, 1999

Member ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James DRIEDGER, Albert DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen FRIESEN, Jean GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY,Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley, Hon. ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Bon. TWEED, Mervin, Hon. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosano Vacant MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Interlake Brandon East Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River St. Boniface Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C.

P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, June 1, 1999 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Ben Sveinson (Acting Chairperson): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Steinbach (Mr. Driedger), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon.

Harold Gilleshammer (Minister charged with the administration of The Crown Corporations Public Review and Account ability Act): I would like to ta ble the Annual Report for the Crown Corporations Council. Hon. David Newman (Minister of Energy and Mines): Madam Speaker, I would like to table the 1999-2000 Departmental Expenditure Estimates for the Departments of Energy and Mines and Northern and Native Affairs. Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): I am pleased to table the Supple mentary Information for Legislative Review for 1999-2000 for the Department of Family Services.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 29- The Victims' Rights Amendment Act Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I am wondering whether I may have leave to revert to the tabling of bills. Madam Speaker: Does the honourable Minister of Justice have leave to revert to the introduction of bills? [agreed] Mr. Toews: I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Gilleshammer), that leave be given to introduce Bill 29, The Victims' Rights Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les droits des victimes), and that the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. I would ta ble the message of the Lieutenant Governor as well. Motion agreed to. *

(1335) Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon thirty-seven Grade 9 students from Calvin Christian School under the direction of Mrs. Angela Schaefer. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson). Also, nine Grade 7 students from Prairieview School under the direction of Ms. Carol Dyck. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Government Services (Mr. Pitura).

We also have twenty-three Grade 5 students from Christ the King School under the direction of Mrs. Shirley Gendron. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mrs. Render). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.

20IO LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June I, I9 99 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Personal Care Homes Consultant-Funding Levels Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, since this government has been in power, we have clearly seen that the delivery of patient services in our health care system is in great difficulty. We are also seeing that many of the other tenets of the system put in place by this government are in equal difficulty, particularly the large planning sections and bureaucracies that were established in the movement to regional health.

I would like to ask the Minister of Health how he can explain the fact that when the health authorities were established, one of the reasons that was given was because of more unified planning, operating and funding structure to integrate health care services, when we now see that the government is putting out a tender effective June IS for a consultant to provide a comprehensive model for the funding of personal care homes for the province of Manitoba.

Why are they privatizing this particular situation when we clearly have seen the fact that there are many bureaucrats in the system that have been added under this government? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Well, Madam Speaker, the member for Thompson clearly misunderstands what is being done here. I go back to earlier questions from his colleague the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), who asked about the whole issue of personal care homes, that we indicated very clearly we are looking at the issue of standards in our personal care homes. In fact, we will be out very shortly doing consultations.

I offered the member for Kildonan a full briefing on the whole issue of standards. We also indicated at the time we would look at the whole issue of funding for our personal care homes, both our proprietary, which are the private ones, and our nonproprietary, which are the pu blic ones, which, by the way, are about five to one, public to private personal care homes, and what we are doing now is within the department reviewing the entire issue of appropriate funding levels for our personal care homes.

The RFP that the member refers to in the newspaper is a request to get additional support to bring in more expertise to do that review. Again, the members on the one hand call for it to be done. We agree that it should be done, and we are drawing on the best expertise, both within our department and externally, to come up with appropriate options for a funding model. Mr.

Ashton: Madam Speaker, I would like to table a copy of the plan of the Winnipeg Community and Long Term Care Authority which outlines, I believe, there are five vice presidents and three different research directors, and that is in the Winnipeg Community and Long Term Care Authority alone. I would like to ask the Minister of Health why now, several years after we needed this, why is he now privatizing this particular aspect? Why, with this huge bureaucracy he has built in Health, is he not getting that kind of study done by the bureaucrats in the regional health authorities and in the Department of Health? Mr.

Stefanson: This member is clearly confused, Madam Speaker. We are not privatizing anything. When you look at our personal care homes today in Manitoba, there are about I 00 that are nonproprietary or public personal care homes. There are about 20 that are proprietary. It is a 5 to I ratio. What we are doing is we are looking at the future funding for our personal care homes in Manitoba, both our proprietary and our nonproprietary. We indicated in this House several weeks ago, we are doing that review. It has been called on by the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) that we should be doing the review.

We agree that the review should be done, and not only are we utilizing our internal expertise, we are drawing on outside expertise to do this. This is some thing that has not been done in Manitoba for 25 or 30 years, and we want to draw on the best expertise available internally and externally to be sure it is done right when the policy is changed. Mr. Ashton: It is the people of Manitoba who are confused about how this government can build up a huge bureaucracy and then state there is not enough expertise to- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Would the honourable member please pose his supple mentary question.

June 1, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MA NITOBA 2011 Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Health minister if he can explain the comments by Sue Hicks that there was not enough expertise in the government to do the job when this government under its regional health strategy has added huge new layers of bureaucracy. Why can they not do the job in Health? Why are they now bringing in outside consultants to do something they should have done in Health in 1995 when it was first requested? Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, we are doing both. We are utilizing internal expertise and external expertise.

This is not something that is done every month or every year. In fact, as I have already indicated, it has not been done, I believe, in over 20 or 25 years in terms of a comprehensive review of the appropriate funding models for personal care homes in Manitoba. That is not to say there have not been annual increases in funding because there have. But we have been called upon by all kinds of parties to look at the funding model, and that is what we are doing.

We are utilizing our internal people, and we are also putting out a request for proposals to draw on outside expertise to do this thorough analysis which requires an analysis of the costs of all of the issues related to what is an appropriate funding model for personal care homes in Manitoba to meet the needs today and in the years ahead. Personal Care Homes Consultant-Funding Levels Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, in 1992, an inquest requested increased funding to personal care homes.

In 1995, as a result of an expose on television, the former, former minister conducted a study which concluded in 1995 as one of the 32 recommen dations that the government increase funding levels to personal care homes. Now, in 1999, seven years after it was first requested, we see the government going out quickly on a tender to do a funding proposal to private consulting firms for new personal care homes.

In light of what the government tried to do by privatizing home care, how can we have any faith that this government is not attempting to privatize that function and go to a private model of personal care homes since most of their friends, I suspect, will be involved in this tender process? *

(1340) Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Well, Madam Speaker, we have increased funding for personal care homes in most of the budgets we have brought down. We increased it in this budget by $15 million. I am assuming, once again, that is one of the reasons that the members opposite of the NDP voted for our 1999 budget because it includes $15 million more for personal care homes.

We have done that time and time again, continuing to provide more resources in keeping with the whole shift to community-based care whether it be our Home Care program which is up by some $20 million, our personal care home program which is up by $15 million. I am sure that is why they voted for this budget. They have not explained clearly why they have, but I am assuming that that is one of the reasons that they were wise enough to support this budget. What we are doing here is reviewing how we fund personal care homes in the years ahead.

We are using internal expertise, and we are drawing on external expertise to assist with the development of options for a funding model. In terms of what that funding model ultimately is, that will be a decision of our government, and it will be done on the basis of meeting the future needs of personal care homes in the province of Manitoba. Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Speaker, can the Minister of Health explain why since 1992 the government has increased the fees paid by residents in personal care homes by 150 percent, and now seven years later, the government now says we need a study-going into an election-to determine a funding model? Can the minister explain that to me, please? Mr. Stefanson: Well, what I will explain to the member, Madam Speaker, and I will show him very clearly as we are in Estimates the continued increases in funding for our personal care homes in Manitoba.

Again, I believe we still have one of the most . comprehensive personal care home programs in all of Canada, where a significant

2012 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 1999 percentage, 70 percent to 75 percent, is provided by the government of Manitoba for our personal care homes. Again, he likes to talk on both sides of every issue. He calls on us to review the funding models. We review the funding models, and now he criticizes us. He questions whether or not we are putting in more money for personal care homes. He turns around and he votes for our budget. Well, again, we would like to see just a little bit of consistency from members opposite. We put $15 million more into personal care homes, $300 million in this budget.

We support this budget. I am glad to see they had the wisdom to do just that as well. Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, can the minister explain why we set up 13 regional health authorities and two authorities in the city of Winnipeg at a cost of tens of millions of dollars to, quote, better co-ordinate and plan our health care system, why we have hired dozens of vice-presidents across the province, very high priced consultants, and now the minister is telling us we have to spend more taxpayers' money for them to go to an outside consulting firm to tell us how to fund our personal care homes?

Can the minister explain that? Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, again, we support regionalization. I am not sure what members opposite do. We support regional ization for the very important reasons that regionalization can allow us to make the best use of our buildings in our health care system, can make the best use of our equipment in our health care system, and we can make the best use of our people in our health care system by putting programs where they meet the greatest need in all of our communities.

So again, we are very supportive of regionalization, another issue where we are not sure where members opposite stand on that issue. But the simple message on this issue is we are reviewing the funding models. We are looking at options for future funding models to meet the needs of Manitobans in our personal care homes. We believe in doing it thoroughly, we believe in drawing on the best advice and the best expertise that we can possibly get when we do a review after 20 or 30 years, and therefore we are going to use internal expertise and external expertise to give us the best options on a go-forward basis. *

(1345) Urban Shared Services Corporation Investigation Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, a new question to the Minister of Health. The CEO of the Urban Shared Services has quit. The corporation is losing $2.5 million, something we warned them about last year. The Auditor is investigating the corporation. It is in chaos because of the food delivery. The minister said yesterday, quote, the operation is already running smoothly. Madam Speaker, if that corporation is running smoothly, how can we trust the government to run anything in health care?

Can the minister not use this opportunity to stop this corporation, to bring it back to the House, to bring the financial statements to the House and ask for an investigation of this corporation and a freezing of the frozen food? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Well, Madam Speaker, again I remind the member opposite that the Urban Shared Services Corporation is an entity that was created by the nine hospitals in the city of Winnipeg, the CEOs of those nine hospitals that are concerned with the operations of the hospitals and the quality of care for the individuals in those facilities.

They serve on the board along with, I believe, four other citizen representatives from Manitoba that serve on the board. Their objective throughout the entire process is to provide quality, nutritional food in the most cost-effective and efficient way possible. They have pointed out that by having one centralized system, it can reduce the requirements for future capital in all of our health care facilities in the city of Winnipeg, and it can also improve the efficiencies of providing that food.

They readily acknowledge that in the first year of operation they have had some implementation costs, they have had some transition costs. It is taking longer for a couple of facilities to come on stream, but you are not putting a system in place just for one month or one week or one year. You are putting a system in place to meet the

June 1, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2013 needs of the Winnipeg hospitals for the next 20 or 30 years, and this system will provide quality, nutritional food in an effective and efficient manner. Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, can the Minister of Health explain why on April 15 of last year, when I asked the former minister and Joe Sheil, CEO, to revise the business plan because they were going to lose $2.5 million, they refused to revise the business plan? They refused to table the financial plan; they refused to table the contractual plan.

Why does the minister expect us to believe today his claims that they are going to make it all better when they could not do it last year, when they denied it last year and when the Auditor has already investigated it? Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I expect him to believe that because they have seen the wisdom of their ways by voting for our 1999 budget. So if that is indicative of some of the thinking that is finally taking place over there, I hope they start to think that way when it comes to regionalization and other services in Manitoba.

I have explained very clearly for the member the whole objective, the whole benefit, the system that is in place for the Urban Shared Services Corporation. We certainly believe that over time it can definitely do what it is meant to do and provide quality, nutritional food in a cost effective manner. In terms of all of the surveys that have been done at the hospitals of late, they show continued improvement in terms of the ratings of the food by the patients.

In fact, the surveys show that the ratings today show that the patients of the facilities give a higher rating to the food today than they did to the food prior to the changes. Food Services Moratorium Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, can the minister not understand that the same comments he made today were made by the previous minister and the previous minister in the same claims?

How can he justify a Joss of $2.5 million in the corporation, and will he not use this opportunity of the resignation of the CEO, the chaos in the corporation, the investigation by the Auditor to put the frozen food plan on frozen and come back with a legitimate process as to how we can provide proper food to Manitobans so that they do not have to go through this fiasco? This is a fiasco. Bon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, there is no fiasco other than in the mind of the member for Kildonan. Again, I just remind him of the system that is in place and the status of operations.

We are in Estimates, and I look forward to discussing this at further length with the member for Kildonan. Again, the objective of this system is to avoid future capital cost requirement, to do it effectively and efficiently to minimize the actual operating cost, to provide quality and nutritional food. This system can definitely do that, and I am sure that with the board that is in place, the nine CEOs from our hospitals, the four citizen members, they will take the appropriate steps to continue to make sure the corporation works efficiently going forward.

I have indicated I am prepared to return to the member with the issue of the contracts, and there will be a revised business plan from the Urban Shared Services Corporation very shortly, which I look forward to sharing with the member for Kildonan. I am sure he will take some interest in that. *

(1350) Urban Shared Services Corporation Rethermalization Carts Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, yesterday in Question Period the Minister of Health said that because the operation is running smoothly, he does not foresee any operational problems in the near future. Well, the big rethermalization carts were designed to be taken to each ward of each hospital and plugged in there so that the food would be ready when needed, but it turns out the Health Sciences Centre wards do not have the power supply to allow the plug-ins and that the Health Sciences Centre officials have now acknowledged that the huge costs to rewire each

2014 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June I, I9 99 ward are simply prohibitive. So will the Minister of Health then confinn that the carts cannot be plugged in to the wards of Health Sciences Centre, therefore cannot be used the way they were intended, and that is a pretty ma jor operational problem in anyone's books? Bon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Both the HSC, Health Sciences Centre, and St. Boniface Hospital have indicated that they have some improvements to put in place to allow for the introduction of the Urban Shared Services Corporation.

But again, the review and analysis that has been done to compare the Urban Shared Services Corporation to improvements that would be required at all of our health care facilities in Winnipeg shows a difference of about $I5 million less by doing it on a centralized basis as continuing to do it at each individual facility. I will certainly look into some of the details, but based on the member for Crescentwood's past perfonnance of being right maybe I 0 percent of the time, I even question the accuracy of what he brings today. Mr.

Sale: Madam Speaker, will the minister confinn that the current plans are to rewire a major piece of the basement area of HSC for the carts, widen structural doors at huge costs, then hold the carts in the basement and rush them to the floors at meal times, exactly like the previous system? No improvement. Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I think that we should wait till the whole new system is introduced at the Health Sciences Centre, which is expected to take place either later this year or early next year.

But again, in tenn s of the overall plan for the Urban Shared Services Corporation, it was brought forward on the basis of one of the benefits being that we could forgo about $I5 million in capital costs by doing it in one central location. So again, the Urban Shared Services Corporation has acknowledged that the HSC and St. Boniface do require some adjust ments, but that pales by comparison to major capital improvements that would have been required in tenns of kitchen facilities and food preparation facilities in those hospitals.

So, on the capital cost side, the investment, again the infonnation provided by Urban Shared Services Corporation shows a savings of about $15 million. Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, will the minister tell the House: now that we know that we are already $5 million over the budget, given the food that is being paid for but not received by HSC and St.

Boniface and given the $2.5-million overrun, we have already spent at least five that we know of, of the 15 that you were saving, will he tell us what the expected costs of the renovations at Health Sciences Centre will be, the real total costs, and whether there has been any testing of the proposed revision to the plan, that is, shipping the carts up to the floor not able to be plugged in, or whether this is just another fly by the seat of the pants planning exercise by this government? Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, the member is wrong with his

preamble. He is comparing capital costs and operating costs. I know he has difficulty getting both of those issues straight in his mind. Again, in tenns of a lot of the

preamble he brings, we have seen his track record when it came to Deer Lodge hospital, having a pathetic amount of accuracy in tenns of the quality of infonnation he brought. I think we should wait and see the issues being addressed by Health Sciences Centre. They are in the process of doing that. They are in the process of finalizing their plans for the introduction of the service.

But again, the overall objective of the USSC, which is owned by the nine hospitals what they seem to forget across the way is that these nine CEOs who manage these health care facilities that provide all of the services in the hospital from the patient care to the food to all of the services, they are extremely interested in doing that as efficiently and effectively as possible and to ensure that the food is of a quality and a nutritional value that is acceptable to all of the patients. They have a very strong interest in doing that, as do we, and they continue to improve in that area. * (I 355)

June 1, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 20 15 Municipal Act Amendments Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Premier. In the Deloraine area there has been considerable discussion around the fact that a number of individuals who are not resident in the municipality were able to vote in the municipal election as a result of owning undivided interests in tiny parcels of land within the municipality. My question to the Premier is: what changes to The Municipal Act will the Premier be proposing to end this particular practice? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I know that that matter is currently being reviewed by the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach), and so I will take that matter as notice on his behalf and have the answer brought back to the Legislature. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, can the Premier indicate, given the municipal legislation that we have before us, why is it not being dealt with with current legislation that is being proposed? Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I will take that question as notice and have the Minister of Rural Development bring a response. Mr.

Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, then will the Premier in fact be introducing amendments to The Municipal Act sometime in this session to address that issue? Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I said that the matter was being reviewed. That does not imply that a decision has been made with respect to amendments. So, again, I will have the matter responded to by the Minister of Rural Development. Flooding Farmers-Compensation Ms.

Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, farmers in the southwest corner of Manitoba continue to wait for some direction from this government as to what kind of support they are going to be offering farmers who are suff ering perhaps the most serious flooding they have ever had in this region. I would like to ask the Premier when his government is going to be telling farmers of southwestern Manitoba whether they are going to be extending crop insurance, whether they are going to waive the penalty for late seeding.

When are they going to give some answers to the people of southwestern Manitoba who are suffering very serious flooding? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, there has been a good deal of work and discussion on these issues done by various departments and ministers. We met just less than an hour ago with representatives of municipalities and KAP regional people in that area. We had an extensive discussion, including the chair of the Crop Insurance Corporation and representatives from the Departments of Natural Resources, Agriculture and MEMO. A variety of different initiatives are being explored.

The member may well know that in virtually every case there is a federal participation, from the OF A with respect to disaster financial assist ance, with respect to the potential use of AIDA, with respect to crop insurance and with respect to all of these other matters including various different opportunities that were pursued either in other disasters in Canada or in the 1997 flood in the Red River.

The position that we have taken is that we will pursue the most generous applications of solutions that have been made in the past as our model so that if they were used either in this province or other places to the benefit of farmers and residents in an area facing similar disasters, that is what we would want to do. I would hope that we would have these matters all clarified to the extent that we can put out public notices with information on this within the next 24 to 48 hours. Ms. Wowchuk: I thank the Premier for the answer.

I want to ask him whether he agrees with the federal Minister of Agriculture who says you cannot announce programs for farmers because they might be irresponsible and be discouraged from seeding. Surely you must agree that farmers do not farm to farm crop insurance and are looking for support just in case they cannot seed, and need some answers now.

2016 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June I, 1999 Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I do not agree with the comments of the federal minister, and we will be in contact again. I kriow that our Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) has been in contact with Mr. Vanclief on a number of occasions in recent times, and we will continue to pursue the matter with him. We do not agree with his position on the matter. *

(1400) Maintaining Safe Communities Brochure Costs Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): The Minister of Justice here in the robbery and the street gang capital of Canada, we understand the minister has been circulating for a few months this fancy, glossy brochure called Maintaining Saf e Communities, full of the minister's puffery. I commend the minister for the nice, glossy photos and the layout. What is this for, Madam Speaker? It is clearly not a guide or a manual for help or to improve safety. What is the cost to taxpayers? Hon.

Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): This was a brochure entitled Maintaining Safe Communities that was put out by my department, and I think my department speaks with pride, our civil servants, our public servants speak with pride about the ef forts that they have made in terms of making this a safer place to live. I want to commend them for the work that they have done.

For example, in the area called Victims, it talks about the victims' programs that we offer, in fact indicates that there is a 1-800 number where people can phone to get some more information in respect of support and assistance to victims. So I am quite proud of what my department has done in respect of not only putting this pamphlet together but also the programs that they have been instrumental in developing. Mr. Mackintosh: Would the minister who will not tell taxpayers- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Would the honourable member please pose his question. Mr.

Mackintosh: The minister justified this puff piece at any cost, but it describes recent improvements to deal with domestic violence such as new civil remedies for victims to deal with stalking, protection orders available province-wide at any time, prevention orders with compensation, suspension and seizure of driver's licence, all of which are untrue. Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, this particular member has brought forward information, allegations that have subsequently been proven to be untrue, that there was very basic information that he could have checked.

For example, he brought information here indicating that Manitoba's Maintenance Enforcement Program was somehow substandard. In fact, it has the highest rate of collections of any province on a percentage basis. So the types of comments that he has made about the programs I think are simply incorrect. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): A point of order, Madam Speaker. Beauchesne's Citation 417 is very clear, that answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate.

Once again this minister is not only not answering the question but is engaging in the kind of personalization, the kinds of efforts we see all too often of diverting from the question. A very serious question was asked about this puff piece and the information that is in it. I would appreciate if you would ask the minister to answer that question under our rules. Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Justice, on the same point of order. Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, as I understand Beauchesne, the question has to be succinctly put. It has to be one question, and there should be no

preamble. The member has clearly erred in putting that question. So the question that was put to me, or should I say the plural of the questions that were put to me, demanded an answer as concisely as I could give, and when you give multiple questions with a multiple

June 1, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2017

preamble, I was answering it as succinctly as possible. Madam Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Thompson, I indeed will take the matter under advisement to check with Hansard. Anti-Stalking Legislation Proclamation Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St. Johns, with a final supplementary question. Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St Johns): Will the minister perhaps admit that he has just been too busy to- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Would the honourable member for St. Johns please pose a supplementary question without any

preamble. Mr. Mackintosh: Has the minister, Madam Speaker, been- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. I am having difficulty hearing the honourable member for St. Johns who was recognized to pose a question. Mr. Mackintosh: Madam Speaker, has the minister been too busy to put into force The Domestic Violence and Stalking Act which would actually give Manitobans those rights and protections that I listed, because he has been too busy prioritizing his time getting out documents, puff pieces like this? The legislation was passed one year ago this month. Hon.

Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I am quite proud of the piece of legislation that my department drafted and which this House passed. As the members are well aware, there are very complex regulations that have to be put in place as a result of that legislation. The legislation is the first in Canada. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honour able Minister of Justice, to complete his response. Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, as I indicated, the regulations under that particular legislation are very complex.

I have had meetings on a regular basis with my department to ensure that those regulations are being moved along on a very timely basis. But I feel that I have an obligation- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. A very serious question was asked, and the minister has been interrupted twice in completing his response. I would ask for the co-operation of all members in permitting the minister to complete his response. Mr.

Toews: I believe that I have an obligation to the people of Manitoba, to the victims of stalking to ensure that the legislation is workable and that it does in fact do the things that it is supposed to do. Our government has not taken a back seat in respect of this issue. It was my colleague the member for Fort Garry (Mrs. Vodrey) who brought forward very important proposals to the federal government which they adopted for the benefit of Manitobans. Athena Educational Partners Partnership Agreement Ms.

Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, two school divisions in Manitoba are reported as entering into contracts with the Youth News Network for the showing of commercial news in Manitoba schools. The minister has already stated in this House that his department does not intend to review the content of these programs, but I would like to ask the minister today whether he intends to open a discussion with the respective school divisions about the nature of the contracts that they have entered into. * (1410 ) Hon.

James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, as we have discussed previously, school divisions will weigh the pros and cons of the proposals brought forward by the company involved and make decisions at the school division level, and I have

2018 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 19 99 said that I belie ve that is an appropriate way to handle this particular issue because each community, each school division will have certain items of priority for themselves that they want to address, and that is an appropriate thing.

I have a copy of a sample ofthe presentation which, because of activities this morning related to developing further technological advance ments in our school system related to an agreement reached between the MERLIN and the Corel Corporation for technology for our students, I did not have a chance this morning to review that YNN sample product ion. I will do that, and if any questions arise that I think are appropriate for me to address with any school divisions, I will do so.

But the fact that school divisions are in some areas finding in favour of moving on this proposal, in other areas are moving in favour of not moving with this proposal, tells me the system is working, Madam Speaker. Ms. Friesen: Could the minister confirm whether or not such contracts in Manitoba contain the requirement for schools to report their daily attendance figures to the commercial company, and does the minister belie ve that such provisions are consistent with The Education Administration Act or The Public Schools Act? Mr.

McCrae: I think I could examine that issue and give the honourable member a response to that specific question, but no doubt she would realize that anyone entering into a contract-a contract is a situation where both parties agree to do certain things or decline to do certain things by mutual consent, and that is what I would see here.

If the honourable member thinks that I can substitute my judgment for that of school superintendents, school trustees, parents and teachers in all the areas where these matters are being looked at, I quite frankly disagree with the approach that says every decision has to be made in this building, everything has to be done by the government, that Big Brother knows better than ordinary Manitobans, that Big Brother knows better than ele cted school trustees, that Big Brother knows better than everybody else how everyone should li ve their lives.

Madam Speaker, I feel fairly strongly about that, as you might have noticed. Ms. Friesen: Could the minister tell the House whether or not such daily attendance figures may be passed from the news network to individual advertisers under provisions of any of the contracts signed in Manitoba? I understand he has not looked at them yet. I ask him to investigate that as well. Mr. McCrae: I think that is something that would be appropriate for me to inform myself about as to the question being raised by the honourable member.

She is raising it as a legitimate concern, and I think that it ought to be handled legitimately. The honoura ble member for Brandon East (Mr. L. Evans) suggests that maybe we should apply certain of the same principles respecting testing in Manitoba, and I just respond to him that I would not proceed like honourable members opposite who are quite content to releg ate future generations of Manitobans to a life of dependence and mediocrity and despondency. No, I support measures that would promote for our child ren a life of independence, a life of excellence and a life of happiness.

Personal Care Homes Consultant- Funding Levels Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): The govern ment's record on health care is marred by a number of fiascos, to use the word used by our Health critic. Who can forget Connie Curran, that outside consult ant? I would like to ask in regard to the tender for the contract if the minister can explain why the proposal is supposed to be in June 15 and the work is supposed to commence July I, and I am just wondering if there is another Connie Curran waiting around in the wings to pick up this consulting contract and then engage in another fiasco for health care in this province.

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Again, the member for Thompson now uses the word "fiasco," but yet this budget includes $2.1 bill ion for health care, a $1 94-million increase, a 10 percent increase which, oh, by the way, Madam Speaker, they voted for and they supported, 35.5 percent of our budget, the second-highest expenditure of any province in

June 1, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 2019 all of Canada, consistently the third or fourth highest per capita spending in all of Canada when it comes to health care, one of the most comprehensive Home Care programs in all of Canada, one of the most comprehensive personal care home programs in all of Canada. I am assuming those are some of the reasons that they supported our budget and voted for our budget.

Here again, we are going out and drawing on the best expertise available to analyze our funding for personal care homes to meet the needs of our system not only today but in the weeks, months, years ahead. Provincial Auditor Urban Shared Services Corporation Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): A supple mentary. I am wondering if the minister will confirm that one of the reasons that nobody trusts this government in this province on health care-that is probably the main reason they have dela yed the election -is because of the fiasco with frozen food. I am wondering if he will assure the House that Mr.

Sheil will be called before the Auditor to account for the mess, the complete fiasco we have seen with frozen food, a system that this minister said only yesterday is running smoothly. Only the Minister of Health belie ves that. Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Members opposite obviously trust this govern ment because they voted for our budget just a couple of weeks ago, did it twice, and voted unanimously for our budget.

So again, I take that as a vote of trust from people right in this Chamber, including all of those members opposite, and I have just outlined the many reasons why I am assuming that they had the wisdom to vote for our 1999 budget, the reason that I have outlined in terms of the $2.1-billion health care funding that is being provided. The member knows that the Provincial Auditor is starting a review of the Urban Shared Services Corporation. He indicated very cle arly that when there are new initiatives, it is not uncommon for him to do a review.

This is a new initiative, and he said he was going to undertake a review. I am told that he is starting that review process in June. Omand's Creek Corridor Parking Lot Transfer Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Omand's Creek is a small creek that winds its way from north of the airport to the Assiniboine River. A significant initiative has been under way to develop a lin ear green corridor. We have an opportunity to enhance that corridor by having the government tum over a parking lot that was used by Manitoba Health.

My question to the Minister of Government Services: is the minister willin g to transfer this property to the City of Winnipeg, in trust, to enhance and expand the urban green space known as the Omand's Creek corridor? Hon. Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): I thank my honourable friend for that question because we have looked into the property that is presently listed at 599 Empress Street, I belie ve is the address and, as such, we have taken a look at that small parking lot that is stranded by the highway going through it.

We have decided that if the City of Winnipeg is willing to accept the responsibility for that piece of property we will do everything we can to transfer that property to the City of Winnipeg for use in that lin ear green space. Madam Speaker: Order, pl ease. The time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Seniors Month Mr. Denis Rocan (Gladstone): This afternoon I would like to pay special tribute to the older citizens of Manitoba. As we cel ebrate the International Year of Older Persons, we have too much to recognize and to thank our seniors for. June is also Seniors Month in Manitoba.

Our forefathers came from many different countries. They brought with them a pioneer spirit, a strong desire to make a better home for their children and a deep commitment to their new homeland. They brought traditions and cultures that added much to the Manitoba mosaic. Our province is a richer place because of their contributions to our culture, history and moral values.

2020 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June I, 19 99 Today's seniors continue to be a vibrant, active segment of our society. Without their continued will ingness to help others through their volunteerism, many services and organi zations could not continue. During the month of June, there will be a number of cel ebrations honouring our seniors. For example, this morning I attended the Carman Seniors Day at the Carman community centre along with the Minister respons ible for Seniors (Mr. Reimer) and my col league the honourable member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck).

Also coming up is the Manitoba Society of Seniors 55 Plus Games which takes place June 15 , 16 and 17 in Carman. I hope that everyone in this House will take the time to at tend events such as these and acknowledge the contributions of older Manitobans. We benefit from the wisdom and knowledge that years of experience have given them. Too often we forget how much we owe to our seniors. They have earned our respect and gratitude and should be recognized and honoured not just for the month of June but each and every day. A special thank you to our recycled teenagers. * (1 420) Cervical Cancer Screening Program Mr.

Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, last week my col league the member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford) raised a very important issue in this House and again raised it in Question Period yesterday, and that is in regard to screening for cervical cancer, and more specifically a need for a registry. I want to put on the record my thanks to- Madam Speaker: Order, please. I am having difficulty hearing the honourable member for Thompson. I wonder if those members having private conversations would do so quietly in the loge or outside the Chamber. Mr.

Ashton: I want to commend our critic for the Status of Women in raising this important issue and note that there appears to be some sign now from the government that we are going to see some action on this very important issue. I have a personal stake in this, Madam Speaker, because I would like to put on the record on behalf of the Braun family in Wabowden, who lost a sister, a daughter and a mother to a circumstance in which a test was conducted, precancerous signs were identified, and due to the negligence of the physician and the hospital involved she was not informed of that and died tragically.

That led to a lawsuit by the family, a recent settl ement that I think cle arly confirms what happened. What I want to put on the record is that no one else should ever have to go through that again. I am disappointed it took the government this long, several years, to respond to it, and like so many other areas of health care, they seem to have waited until the dying days of their mandate.

But if, later on this week, the efforts of families such as the Braun family, the efforts of our critic and our caucus, and indeed the many physicians and medical people throughout the province lead to the establishment of what we really need, a cervical screening program and a registry, it will be a very important day for Manitoba women. Thank you. Ecole St. Avila Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St. Norbert): Madam Speaker, my government remains committed to promoting environmental education and protection, and in particular conveying this message to our young people. Recently I presented Ecole St.

Avila with a cheque of $1 0,800 from the province's Sustainable Development Innovations Fund. Ecole St. Avila will use the funds to pla nt mature trees and perennials on the school property. School children will be involved in this project and will adopt a tree to care and to study. The Sustainable Development Innovations Fund provides financial assistance for the develo pment, impleme ntation and promotion of innovative environmental projects del ivered by community groups, industry and government.

The fund encourages the creation of partnerships to make a contribution to improving our environment, economy, health and community well-being.

June 1, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 2021 Madam Speaker, this grant represents a positive partnership between the government and an important community facility. Through sustainable development practices, we meet present-day needs while ensuring that our decisions will make it possible for future generations to meet their needs too. This funding will allow young child ren to learn about the merits of environmental responsibility while giving them a sense that they have contributed something worthwhile and lasting to the place they call home. I wish to commend Madame Painchaud, the principal of St.

Avila, the staff and students of St. Avila for the initiative they have shown in undertaking this project. Their efforts will help beautify our community while teaching students about the importance of protecting and enhancing the environment. Thank you. Manitoba Envirothon '99 Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, on May 27, 28 and 29, the third annual Manitoba Envirothon was held at Canadian Forces Base at Shilo.

Envirothon is a high school study program culm inating in a competition where participating teams of high school students demonstrate their knowledge of forests, aquatics, soils, wildlif e and environmental issues. This year's team was fire management. The environmental approach is learning, fostering teams and providing an opportunity for students from different jurisdictions to meet and exchange information and share environmental concerns. This year, there were 11 schools that participated.

The Arthur Meighen High School from Portage la Prairie; Crocus Plains Regional Secondary School, Brandon; Ed Schreyer School of Beausejour; Fort Richmond Coll egiate in Winnipeg; Gimli High School; Maples Col legiate; W.C. Miller Colle giate from Altona; Pembina Valley Conservation District Environ mental Youth Group; Powerview School from Powerview; Shaftesbury High School of Winnipeg; and the Swan Valley Regional Secondary School. I am very pleased to announce that it was the Swan Valley Regional Secondary School students who took first place in the competition.

These students will be going on to the international competition, and they will be competing in Cal ifornia on July 27 and August 1, 19 99, at an event hosted by the California Envirothon Committee at Humboldt State University at Arcata, California. I want to extend my best wishes to Kari Goodman, Kristin McCrea, Crystal Barker, Gayle Russell, Vera Teleford and Chris Hunt who were the team members on this and also to the teachers Mr. Rick Wowchuk, Serge Richer and assistant Ryan Creighton who supported this team. I want to wish them all the very best luck in the next level of competition.

Essential Services Amendment Act Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): I wanted to take this opportunity just to appeal to the Minister of Health (Mr. Stef anson), who was given the partial blessing of this Chamber in passing the essential services legisla tion. Now all it requires is Royal Assent. I appeal to the Minister of Health not to bring in Royal Assent for that particular bill, at least until the mediation has been dealt with. I think that is a fair request, and I would appeal to the Minister of Health to give it due consideration. Thank you. ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Hon.

Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I understand His Honour the Lieutenant Governor will be arriving very shortly to give Royal Assent to I belie ve Bill 27, The Essential Services Amendment Act. In the meantime, while we are waiting for his arrival, I would like to make a few announcements.

I know we are still working out some details on committee, but I think it would be safe to announce today that the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources will meet on Tuesday, June 8, 19 99, at 10 a.m. in Room 255 to continue discussing the 19 96, '97 and '98 and the 19 99 five-year operating plans for the Workers Compensation Board, the annual reports of the Workers Compensation Board for

2022 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June I, 19 99 the years ended December 31, 19 96, '97 and '98, and the December 31, 19 96, '97 and 19 98, reports of the Appeal Commission. I understand that the work of that committee was not completed and that it was seeking another day. so we will call that committee for that particula r Tuesday. I would also like to announce as well that the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources will meet on Tuesday, June 15 , 19 99, at I 0 a.m. to discuss the annual report of the Manitoba Public Insu rance Corporation for the year ended February 28, 19 99.

In discussions with the opposition House leader (Mr. Ashton), we are trying to accommodate committees, critics, ministers, et cetera. Regrettably, we were not able to do that for this week, so we may be considering another committee for next week, but I have to have further discussions with my colleagues opposite to see if that is possible. So there may be a further announcement if we are able to accommodate all concerned for a possible committee meeting on Monday of next week, but again, it is a matter of trying to accommodate all of the parties, including critics, around that time.

Madam Speaker, it would be our intention today, after the arrival of the Lieutenant Governor, to proceed to Committee of Supply for Estimates. I would ask if you could canvass the House to see if there is unanimous consent to waive private members' hour today on the understanding, of course, that we would be using the Thursday morning sitting for Private Members' Business. Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to waive private members' hour for today? [agreed] Two announcements regarding standing committees.

The Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources will meet Tuesday, June 8, 10 a.m., in Room 255 to continue to consider matters related to the Workers Compensation Board; and the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources will meet on Tuesday, June 15 , 10 a.m., to consider matters related to the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation. * (1 430) Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, understanding that there is a reception tonight sponsored by the High Commissioner of Great Britain and that certain members do want to attend that, what I think I would like to propose is, following the arrival of the Lieutenant Governor, when we move the motion of Supply, that we should leave it to each committee, each of the sections, to determine their own arrangements whether they would like to adjourn at five o'clock or they would continue sitting until six, because it does not affect all members.

So I think we could have an understanding in this House that we would leave it to each section, members in each Committee of Supply to work out the detail. I understand there is an interest in Education, for example, to wind it up at five o'clock because of members wanting to attend that function. So if there is that willingness I certainly have no objection as government House leader to that decision being made in each

section of committee. Madam Speaker: My understanding is that the House will technically adjourn at 6 p.m., but is there unanimous consent of the House to have individual decisions made in the three individual sections of Committee of Supply as to determining the time for adjo urnment today? [agreed] Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, we are just awaiting the arrival of His Honour, so if the House could just be patient, I understand that he was entertaining the honourary consul of the Bel gian King here this afternoon. Perhaps our coll eague for Point Douglas or others may want to entert ain us.

I look to the member for Wolseley. If I could catch her attention, I know her interest to attend the reception of the British High Commissioner. I would ask if we could also agree today that after 5 p.m. if any standing votes are required or any recorded votes are required that they would be put over to the next day.

June I, 19 99 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2023 Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House not to deal with any recorded votes this afternoon in Committee of Supply? [agreed] * (1 440) ROYAL ASSENT Deputy Sergeant-at-Arms (Mr. Garry Clark): His Honour the Lieutenant Governor.

His Honour Peter Liba, Lieutenant Governor of the Province of Manitoba, having entered the House and being seated on the Throne, Madam Speaker addressed His Honour the Lieutenant Governor in the following words: Madam Speaker: May it please Your Honour: The Legisla tive Assembly, at its present session, passed a bill, which, in the name of the Assembly, I present to Your Honour, and to which bill I respectfully request Your Honour's assent. Bill 27- The Essential Services Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les services essentiels. Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): In Her Majesty's name, His Honour the Lieutenant Governor doth assent to this bill. His Honour was then pleased to retire. Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I would move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson ), that this House now do resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Most Gracious Majesty. Motion agreed to. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) EDUCATION AND TRAINING Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply pl ease come to order. This afternoon, this

section of the Committee of Supply, meeting in Room 254, will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Education and Training. When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 16 .2. School Programs (

d) Program Development

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $3,1 64,200. Shall the item pass? Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): My apologies, first of all, for keeping the committee waiting. It was unintentional. The minister had some material to table on curriculum and numbers of students in senior level information technology courses. Mr. Chairperson: Before I acknowledge the minister's response, what is the will of the committee in terms of rising today? Ms. Friesen: Well, as I am sure the Chairman knows, the government House leader indicated that each committee should determine what time it is rising today.

All members of the Legisla ture have been invited to meet with the British High Commissioner, and I would certainly like to. So I would propose that we rise at 5 p.m. Mr. Chairperson: Is it the will of the committee that this committee rise at 5 p.m? [agreed] Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): I know that the honourable member for Wolseley was referred to by the government House leader when he put the matter to the House, and the House has agreed that the committees can decide. So, that being the case, I have certainly no problem with the honourable member attending.

I am going to have the pleasure of meeting with the High Commis sioner myself this week, so I would not want to deprive the honourable member of that opportunity. Ms. Friesen: Just for cla rification, is the minister clea r on this committee rising at 5 or 5: 30 p.m.? An Honourable Member: Did you say 5 p.m.? Ms. Friesen: 5 or 5: 30 p.m.

2024 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 19 99 An Honourable Member: It is on your head. You call it. Ms. Friesen: 5: 30 p.m.? Mr. Chairperson: For 5:30 p.m.? Is it agreed that the committee will rise at 5:30 p.m.? [agreed] The committee will rise at 5:30 p.m. today. Mr. McCrae: Yesterday-a ctually, over a couple of days now, I think-we have talked about curricula-related technology education. I gave out a lot of information verbally. My depart ment has kindly put it into a form that probably looks better than it would coming from me verbal ly, and I am going to table that.

The student numbers are something the honourable member has been asking about, and we have not yet compiled that, but we will provide those numbers just as soon as that is possible to do. In the meantime, I am tabling this Report on Department-developed Curricula Related to Technology Education. This is dated today's date, and the document says what it says. I will keep one for myself. In addition, the honourable member was talking to me about the Assiniboine Community College and the southwest consortium.

Assiniboine Community College and the south west consortium have reached agreement on the cost and nature of the technical support that will be provided by ACC to the consortium during the 19 99-2000 pilo t del ivery of the World Issues 40S Web-based course. Technical support will be charged back to the consortium at an hourly rate of $1 9.60. The nature of the technical support that will be provided is lim ited to trouble-sh ooting and correcting OLE-based problems only. OLE is the applica tion software that is used to create the on-line learning environment.

It is also important to note that MERLIN would not be able to provide this service because they do not have OLE, which is owned by ACC. In addition, we talked about information technology, and this may respond to some things that were asked about surveys. Schools have been surveyed on their information technology infrastructure in each of the foll owing school years: 19 86-87, 19 87-88, 19 91- 92, 19 94-95, 19 96-97. That is available online at http://www.edu.gov.mb.cal metks4/tech/techplan /survey/index.html.

Current status is as follows: MERLIN is currently completing a technology survey of all schools in the province to determine their Internet connectivity as well as to gather other information on their technical infrastructures. The agency has had a difficult time obtaining this information from schools, with only 38 percent responding within the time line of the survey. Action is currently underway to obtain data from those who have not yet compl eted the survey form, and I am going to table that survey form in a moment.

The future status is that MERLIN will undertake to conduct annual information technology infrastructure surveys with respect to Internet connectivity. MERLIN of fers all schools in the province a free Internet account which includes e-mail as well as World Wide Web space. Every school has the ability to connect to the Internet by using this account. Connection and long distance charges are the responsibil ity of the school. If a school has no computer equipment or modems, these can be obtained at minimal cost from the Computers for Schools and Libraries program.

The software necessary to connect to the Internet is available without charge. The definition of connected to the Internet is open for discussion. The federal government uses a criterion that is that schools have the abil ity to connect to the Internet via a modem to use e-mail services. Using this criterion, all schools in Manitoba have the ability to connect to the Internet. * (1 500) In the survey completed in 19 97, it was found that approximately two-thirds of schools reported accessing the Internet via a modem. Urban schools were most li kely to do so, 72 percent of them.

In contrast, northern schools were most likely to access the Internet using a local area network router; that is 52 percent. Prelimi nary results from the 19 98-99 survey indicate that 95 percent of the schools have Internet access. However, as noted previously, the opportunity to connect to the Internet is possible using MERLIN Internet accounts and

June 1, 1999 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2025 equipment from Computers for Schools and Libraries. With respect to the student to computer ratio, in May 1997, there were 22,668 computers in the 615 schools reporting. In contrast, the 1995 survey reported 16,780 computers in 478 Manitoba schools. If it were not for the time that would be required, I would just repeat that because that is a pretty significant activity out there. The prelimi nary information- Ms. Friesen: The minister was indicating significant activity. I wondered on what basis, and since I heard him, maybe he does need to repeat it.

In '95, there were only 478 schools reporting, and in '97 there were 615 schools, so, in fact, there is no way of comparing the figures. Mr. McCrae: The honourable member has very sharp, acute hearing skills. It is true, because you cannot always guarantee how many are actually going to report, but the fact is in '97, 615 schools reported. In 1995, 478 reported.

I suppose we could go and have a review on the methodology and all the rest of it, but I am putting out some information that I think is significant on the face of it without commenting on the methodology or the accuracy of the survey or the reliabil ity of the people asking the questions or anything else. I just thought it was fairly significant on its face. Now I suppose we could do a review more about this in order to ascertain-it has probably even grown by greater amounts than that revealed in the survey here.

In any event, I take the point made by the honourable member, and I can see that she would be correct in the observation that she has made because there is nothing here to say-we ll, maybe the next paragraph will help, and I will go on with that. The prelim inary information from the 1998- 99 survey, 38 percent of schools responding, represents 51. 4 of the student popula tion in the province.

Well, I can agree, and I spoke to the gentleman from MERLIN earlier today who was expressing a little bit of concern that he cannot force people to respond to surveys, and that may very well highlight the observation made by the honourable member. The prelimi nary infor mation from the 1998-99 survey with 38 percent of schools responding represents 51. 4 percent of the student population in the province. From the information provided, there are 12,215 computers in these scho ols.

This translates to a student-to-computer ratio of eight to one within the reporting schools, and this information can be updated as schools provide additional information. So the honourable member's point is well taken, but I would still like to table the survey that is used to make this report. In addition, Mr. Chairman, I had the privilege today of being involved in an announcement which bears on a lot of the discussions we have been having.

We, through MERLIN, have negotiated a special rate for Corel software lice nsing, and there is going to be a substantial dollar saving in the education community, at the same time accessing technological assistance through software and whatever other services that are the subject of this agreement. Manitoba's education community will save approximately 75 percent to 80 percent on their software licensing purchases through a special agreement announced today.

The agreement will help to improve access to leading edge software packages that could be used in both the classroom and other settings to give our students an advantage in today's information age. This Corel Licence Program Academic Agreement was reached between Corel and MERLIN, which is the Manitoba Education Research Learning Information Network. It offers a major discount to schools, post secondary institutions, li braries and museums on Corel product licences. Licensing is essential in the acquisition of software. This is something that Col ette Lepine representing Corel said today.

She said that this software will give students an opportunity to learn about the kinds of technology that will help prepare them for success. The agreement will support the plans of many schools to increase their licences as more computers are added to labs. I had the opportunity. This announcement was made today at the Winnipeg technical college. Mr. Len Harapiak was there. We appreciated the abil ity to use Winnipeg Technical College's premises for the purpose of making the announcement.

2026 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June I, 19 99 Products being offered under the licensing agreement include business applica tions and that would be the Corel WordPerfect Suite, and they had the equipment and the software there, complete with students working on them to show us how it would assist them. Also, Corel Graphics Appl ications called CoreiDRA W and Corel Intemet!Intranet Appli cations, Webmaster and Graphics Suite. It was pointed out that MERLIN provides technology at reduced rates to the educational community through bulk purchasing, networking services, Internet audio and video conferencing.

It went on to say that schools and other people in the education community can contact MERLIN to see how they can participate in the offer that is now being made because of this agreement. Now this is what MERLIN does. This is what they are there for, to assist in bringing technology to our education system. That seems to be what is happening. I cannot put a dolla r sign on this, because I do not know what 75 percent to 80 percent will mean on a licence arrangement in a given institution.

But if every body took advantage of this type of discount that is available through the auspices of agreements reached with the MERLIN, then you can imagine either the advances that can be made in technology in our schools or savings realized on deals like this that could make dolla rs available for other aspects, so I just thought I would add that today. Ms. Friesen: Could the m1mster table the contract that he signed or that MERLIN has signed with Corel? Mr. McCrae: I do not know. We will ascertain if it is tableable, and if it is, we will do that.

I have not tabled an agreement like this in the past, so if there are any issues related to proprietary matters or anything like that that I need to have brought to my attention, subject to that I am certainly always willin g to table as much as I possibly can. * (1510 ) Ms. Friesen: I know we have a line coming up with MERLIN on it, and we can certainly refer these questions there. There are certainly lots of advantages in these types of negotiated agree ments, and sometimes they are so advantageous that schools will only then buy Corel.

In some cases, this may not give the students the diversity of software that they need to work with to be prepared for a variety, so I am interested in two aspects of this. Does the minister believe that there are any exclusive ele ments in the contract; and secondly, does MERLIN intend or has MERLIN already negotiated contracts with other companies in a similar vein? Mr. McCrae: I think there is nothing in this that compels anybody who needs something that is not off ered through this particular company that compels them not to access that.

There is another contract like this that I know about and MERLIN wants to negotiate more of these, so that more access can be had to all of the resources that are around, but it in no way compels anybody to exclusivity. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, the minister referred to another contract that he knew of like this. Did he mean in another department or is he specifically under MERLIN? Mr. McCrae: There was one other that I know of that was announced last year, and that is with Microsoft. I suppose if the same rules do not apply to that, I can try to obtain that. Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Chairman, yes, the minister anticipated my question. I wanted to refer to the material the minister tabled which related to technology and education, and I wanted to isola te out what I have been trying to ask questions on, and that is information technology. The minister has given me a sheet which rela tes to technology education which obviously is a much broader field. As I look at this list, I can see that there are many areas where computers would be used and where different aspects, beyond computers, of tech nology would be used. But I am interested specifically in the teaching of information technology.

It seems to me from this li st-an d what I am looking for is some confirmation or additions from the minister-that what we have that is essentially information technology initiated,

June 1, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2027 developed by the department is Advanced Word Processing 45S, Automated Office 40S, Computer Apps and Technology 20S, and then the two courses in keyboarding, Introductory Keyboarding and Advanced Keyboarding, and then Software Appl ications. Then there is the Word Processing 30S. Would there be others which are cle arly information technology curricula?

For example, this report on department-developed curricula relating to technology education talks about technology may be regarded as a tool, a machine, a process system environment, and yes, all of that is true. But what I was asking about was information technology. So have I picked out the right ones, and can the minister tell me whether each of these curricula in the ones that I have listed is available to me through the departmental li brary? Mr.

McCrae: After due del iberation, I think the answer here has to be that we need to prepare a response on this that is a fairly detailed one for the honourable member. Some courses are about technology and others are about using technology, and technology is only one resource that is used in the teaching of certain things, for example, accounting principles or something like that. I think, if I am understanding the honourable member's question appropriately, it is going to require some work in order to put together a complete response to the question being asked here.

Having said that, the question is not simple since many, many courses now use technology, in some cases just a li ttle bit and in some cases quite extensively. So I think that I will ask my staff to review the question as it was put and subject to any cla rification the honoura ble member might place on it in order to be responsive to what it is that she is raising with us. I think I should talk about technology as a foundation skill.

However, for our purposes today, the use of the word "technology" will be synonymous with that of the term "information technology." Information technology comprises computers, software, course ware, graphing calcula tors, microcomputer-based labs, CO ROMs. The department has completed the developmen t of a document entitled Technology as a Foundation Skill Area-A Journey Toward Information Technology Literacy. The document was released in August of last year. The document establis hes a contextual framework for information technology.

It provides a vision for the use of information technology to enhance teaching and learning. It describes an information technology li terate student; it describes the technology enhanced classroom; it discusses issues related to information technology integration and implem entation. It provides an information technology li teracy continuum, and the document will serve as a guide to curriculum development teams and to classroom teachers. The Technology as a Foundation Skill document is of value to school and divisional administrators when planning for technology impleme ntation.

In Technology as a Foundation Skill, in that document the following projects are cited: Curriculum/ Multimedia Integration Project, Interdiscipl inary Middle Years Multimedia Project, Senior 1 Math Computer Guided Learning courseware and Senior 2 Applied Math as valid approaches to technology integration in Manitoba schools. These projects demonstrate the impleme ntation of the information tech nology vision statement appearing in the document. * (1 520) Ele ven regional orientation sessions for 450 educators and administrators were held in the fall of 19 98.

The response to the TFS document, TFS being Technology as a Foundation Skill, has been very positive. As of May of 19 97, technology has been integrated into Science 20S, Biolo gy 30S, Chemistry 30S, Physics 30S and Applied Math 20S foundation for implemen tation documents. Further integration of tech nology is moving into the mathematics and English language arts core curriculum areas.

Technology integrated curricula guide Manitoba teachers in how effectively to use information technology so that they can help their students achieve prescribed learning outcomes, differentiate instruction, implement authentic assessment and resource-based learning. The goals for the integration of technology are to build . a model for the integration of information technology with Manitoba

2028 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 19 99 curriculum; to base valid curriculum integration of technology on sound field testing by trained pilot teachers; to provide lin kages with curriculum that will enable information technology to form a meaningful part of resourced-based learning in Manitoba schools; to provide information technology integrated curriculum, accessible both in print and electronic formats and to identify technology learning resources that are required to meet these goals.

Schools are now able to add to their technology infrastructure as a result of the $5 million that was announced in December of 19 98. Schools are consistently reporting that there is a general lack of professional staff expertise to fully implement technology integrated curricula. I can understand that being said; on the other hand, a lot has been done as well, so there are two sides to that coin.

With respect to accomplishments and the future status, science technology integration, the information technology integrated Senior 3 Biology 30S, Senior 3 Chemistry 30S and Senior 3 Physics 30S curriculum documents are available for use by teachers. Information technology integration within K to S4 science will accompany alignment of Manitoba science curriculum with the Pan-Canadian framework.

With respect to interdiscipli nary middle years multimedia integration, the Inter disciplin ary Middle Years Multimedia Project is developing an instructional model for teaching interdisciplin ary units with multimedia support. The multimedia resourced Grade 5 instructional unit, The Prairie Tour, will be completed in March of 19 99. I guess that means it was completed in March of 19 99. The multimedia resourced Grade 6 unit, Inventions, Innovations and Discoveries, has been pilo ted by 25 pilot sites and is currently being revised based on feedback from pilot teachers. It will be completed by December of 19 99.

Work on the Grade 7 pilo t of this project has begun and will be completed during the 19 99-2000 school year. Future work on this project at the Grade 8 and at Kindergarten to Grade 4 will proceed in 19 99- 2000 With respect to mathematics Computer Guided Learning, otherwise known as CGL, an expression I know the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Tweed) is very familiar with, this is a Western Canadian Protocol project which includes ITP Nelson as a partner.

The department has funded the acquisition of a provincial site licence for the Senior I, Senior 2 and mathematics CGL courseware for the 19 98- 99 school year. The department has funded the piloting of the Grade 7 and Grade 8 math CGL courseware during the 19 98-99 school year. Provincial licensing for CGL software for 19 99-2000 will proceed for Grades 7 and 8 and Senior I and 2. With respect to mathematics technology integration, information technology has been integrated into the Senior 2 Applied Mathematics 20S foundation for implem entation document.

Information technology is being integrated into Senior 3 Applied Mathematics, 30S, funding support for technology acquisition has been provided through an additional $5.4 million in funding support to schools. Integration of information technology into K to 4 mathematics curriculum is underway through a new initiative, the Curriculum Information Technology Integration or CITI project. The CITI project will produce a resource for teachers that will guide them in the effective integration of information technology.

The resource will be made available to teachers in a variety of formats including the World Wide Web, CD-ROM and print. For English language arts technolo gy integration, technology integration into English language arts curriculum has begun. Integration of information technology into K to 4 English language arts curriculum is underway through a new initiative, the Curriculum Information Technology Integration or CITI project. The CITI project will produce a resource for teachers that will guide them in the effective integration of information technology.

The resource will be made available to teachers in a variety of formats including the World Wide Web, CD-R OM and print. For social studies, social studies curriculum will require information technology integration that will be co-ordinated with the development of the western Common Curriculum Framework for Social Studies outcomes. The CITI project

June 1, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2029 will produce a resource for teachers that will guide them in the effective integration of information technology. The resource will be made available to teachers in a variety of formats including the World Wide Web, CD-ROM and print. So, Technology as a Foundation Skill, that document continues to provide the framework under which the integration of information technology into curricula by curriculum develop ment teams occurs. The Technology as a Foundation Skill document will be the guiding document in the integration of information technology into curricula.

I just put that on the record so that the honourable member will be aware of that information. We will be providing a list with two categories. Provincially made is designed to teach computers and technologies, and technol ogy is a prime focus as a discipline as it were, for example, computer science, and secondly, locally made from the list tabled yesterday, we will be extracting courses whose titles suggest technology as a discipline, for example, advanced software applications, 41 G, or personal applied technology, 11 G. Bear in mind, Mr.

Chairman, that I did say yesterday we do not review the school-init iated courses for content, so we will therefore make some assumptions from what the title suggests. * (1 530) Ms. Friesen: I am not sure I understood correctly the minister in his last statement, that the department does not review the school initiated projects for content. I understood that there was quite an extensive documentation that had to be provided to the department.

What we discussed earlier was whether the minister was at lib erty to release them, but surely the minister does review them or someone in his department reviews those school-ini tiated projects. I wonder, first of all, is that what the minister intended by that statement? Secondly, I wanted to give the minister some sense of where I was coming from on this, or at least the staff in preparing the list. I was quite curious about the number of school initiated projects in the computer area.

I mean there are obviously a lot of school-ini tiated projects in any case, but within this area where I had assumed-and the minister has provided the evidence on this-that there were department developed curricula. I am curious as to why there is so much school-ini tiated curricula in that area. It is interesting the minister is going to table both of them. Yes, I am looking for some comparison between them as to what gaps are there or what needs school divisions are seeing in what is being provided by the department. A third element is the issue of testing of information technology.

The minister has said and New Directions identified information technology as a foundation skill. I wonder if the minister could tell me how the department tests that foundation skill. Mr. McCrae: Our reviews of these courses include a review of the course outline. We want certain ele ments to be included, but I do not think that the department sets out exactly what. We want to know that there is an outcome, but I do not think the department wants to lead the school or the course in exactly what the outcome should be. We want to know that there is one.

We want to know what kind of learning resources are involved in it and if there are assessment strategies. I do not know how detailed we want to be about what they should be.

We would like to get a statement of the aim of the course, the rationale, the philosophy, the statement of general student learning outcomes; for each general student learning outcome some kind of statement of the specific student learning outcomes that are required by the course, not by the department, but by the course; some kind of outline or list of course content expressed as topics or themes with all otted time in hours for each topic or theme; a statement of instructional approaches and strategies designed to achieve the general and specific student learning outcomes; the major learning resources and bibl iographic information; and a statement of assessment and evaluation approaches and strategies designed to measure student achieve ment relative to the outcomes.

What I am trying, though, to underline, even with all of that, we, other than wanting through New Directions to ensure the reading and writing and numeracy skills of our students,

2030 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 1999 there needs to be, we need to let teachers do what they do best with some important direction on the important themes, but I still think that I do not want to micromanage what the teachers do. I think that there is a fair bit of suggestion about that. We need some general things to happen.

As a society, there is overwhelming support for that statement that we want to establish some standards in our system, but they are standards relating to some pretty basic core things that we should achieve and then allow school divisions, schools, and teachers to do their jobs in the way that they are well equipped to do. We do not intend to test respecting foundation skills in this as an area of technology. We do not intend to do that.

We test Grades 3, 6, 9, and 12 in a few subjects, a few very important subjects, to determine the learning of numeracy and literacy and communication and thinking and problem solving. We do not test as a matter of provincial standards testing for human relationships li ke teamwork and respect for others, entrepreneurial spirit, self esteem, those sorts of things. Those are very important things, but I think we would be going a lit tle far if we tested in all areas that I seem to be hearing suggested here. We do not test oral skills. We do not test technology skills.

I am sure those things are happening at the local level and need to be happening there. Those are best done locally and it bears repeating: we believe there is a partnership in effect here respecting assessment, province and local, including the local cla ssroom teacher. I am glad the honourable member raised this point, because partnerships are that. There is a role to be played by all of the partners. You have to find the balance that suggests that everybody in the partnership is a true partner-not only suggests it, but makes it a fact and a reality.

I would just like to add that-[interjection] Oh, with respect to another one. I am going to finish on the last one now. feel very strongly about this. You just cannot run everything out of this building, and you should not. Even if you could, you should not do that because that is-1 mean, I used the expression Big Brother in Question Period today to make the point. I try not to be quite as rhetorical when I am talking in the committee, but it does not matter. It means the same thing. The fact is, either we are for tests or we are against tests.

It seems like most people are for them, but that minority that are against them put out the wrong justification for the position they take. I am just going to touch on a few of those things. * (1 540) They are out there saying that weeks are spent preparing for tests and that the six or seven days of testing are disruptive. This is the argu ment that we get from this coalition against testing. I noticed that nobody from the New Democratic Party asked me any questions today about that, and I wondered why.

This is supposed to be test-free Tuesday according to the New Democrats and some of their friends, I assume. [interjection] Well, they make friends. Of course, everybody makes friends. The length of standards tests activities is designed to be appropriate for the student grade level. The Grade 3 math test, for example, is separated into two parts. Each one is written in one 45-minu te session scheduled over two consecutive days. The Grade 3 English language arts standards test is separated into four parts written over four consecutive days.

There are people who are out there trying to make others beli eve-in fact, one woman said to me: do you not think 290 minutes is a long time to make a Grade 3 child sit there without even going to the bathroom? Now, you know, if that is the tactics people are going to use to make their case against establishing standards and having tests against those standards, I welcome them to continue along that line because there is absolutely no credibility here in that sort of approach.

If you have a case to make, make it, but do not come forward with a bunch of myths to try to cast doubt about a system that was built by very committed Manitobans, many of whom are teaching professionals. The Grade 3 one, as I told you, is separated into four parts written over four consecutive days. A significant portion of each of these sessions includes teacher- led student practice sessions. For example, teachers introduce themes, read passages aloud to students and provide students with correct answers before they undertake the test activity on their own.

June 1, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 203 1 Another myth. Child ren in split grades lose their teacher for significant periods of time. Again, that is not true. The Grade 3 math test represents two 40-mi nute sessions, and the English language arts is two 40-mi nute and two 65-min ute sessions. For example, there are only 13 questions on the English language arts tests. Here is another myth. Results are predictable by income. Well, here are the facts. There is a positive correla tion between income in any measure of student achievement, including teacher-made tests. However, social status is not destiny.

In fact, education is the greatest social equalizer that exists. There are many studies of school effectiveness that show teachers in schools do make a difference, and the deficits due to social class can be compensated for by good teaching on the part of the school. Well, my granddad got a Grade 2 education. It did not mean that he did not live a healthy life and that he did not work hard, and did not live a long time and have a happy li fe. On the other hand, that was then; this is now. You cannot really get very far with Grade 2.

But two generations later that person's grandchildren have found themselves at very good levels of social and economic success, thanks to a quality education system. Another myth. No additional money or staff has been given to help schools that have performed poorly on the tests. Manitoba government, in recognition of the importance of education, provided an increase of 2.6 percent to schools for 19 99-2000, a $19 .7-million increase over last year's levels. This represents the third year of consecutive increases to education.

Funding for education has increased over $14 9 million since 19 87, and education represents close to 20 percent of overall provincial expenditures, the main funding priority of government next to health care. An additional $900,000 is being provided in support of professional development, and an additional $2 million is being provided for students with emotional behavioural difficulties, as well as $5 milli on for classroom costs. The Manitoba government introduced the standards testing program in order to provide parents and students with reliable information about student performance and achievement.

The government expects schools to share results and other information with the parents of individual students. Student results provide schools and parents with valuable information to support the progress and achievement of students. Distorted information is being presented to parents related to standards tests, and parents deserve the facts. That is a very troubling issue, when I am told by those who have been rehearsed, I guess, to deal with these questions, that no information is shared, so why are you doing all this testing and what is the benefit of it all?

Well, information, where we have found it has not been shared, we have done something about it. We discourage anybody just receiving results and then not sharing them with the teacher or the students or the families. Why would you go through all that and then not follow through with what would assist the child in his or her education? Another myth. The only information available through test results is a number. Not true. Fol lowing every standards test, schools receive a detailed breakdown of each student's performance.

For example, in addition to providing schools with the overal l student results on the Grade 3 mathematics standards test, schools receive a portrait of student achievement showing how students performed on each part of the test and their results by question type. Teachers are provided with guides to standards tests to help them interpret results appropriately, and they should be discussing these results with parents. I am sure the majority of teaching professionals in Manitoba are doing that, but not even all teaching professionals are aware of what is available to them in terms of information.

That is an area that I have asked my deputy minister to deal with, and he has been doing that. I also asked him to show me what the test looks like. He showed me that; I tabled that. I also asked him to show me what test results look like and how they can be interpreted, and he did that. I will tell you, there is an awful lot of information that a parent and a teacher can use as a result of any of these standards tests to assist the student in their education experience.

2032 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 1999 Here is another myth. The tests have no diagnostic value and occur too late in the school year. Well, excuse me, that is not true either. Testing at Grade 3 does not even make up a part of the student's grade but supports opportunities for prevention and early intervention. Test results help classroom teachers identity student strengths and weaknesses. Do people think that kids are finishing school at Grade 3 and just because the results are coming out in June that those results are no good to anybody? Give me a break.

The children are returning to school in Grade 4, and they have Grade 5 and Grade 6 when they go through another assessment time. So I just think that it is not fair to kids to make them go through six years of school before they get this type of assessment and all of the weaknesses that they might have are not properly identified until Grade 6. That does not add up.

For anybody who wants to argue that early diagnosis and intervention are the right things to do because when people are young that is the right time to do it, then they tum around and say but we do not like the Grade 3 exam, I am having a little trouble. They do not like it based on these myths that I have been telling you about which are being floated by somebody out there who has-I do not know what they have in mind other than maybe mischief, because this is not correct information.

Of course, it has diagnostic value, and because it occurs at the end of Grade 3 does not make any difference because there is Grade 4, Grade 5 and Grade 6 to prepare for. That is why work does need to be done in this area of making sure people are aware of what the results of that Grade 3 test are. Of course, I would be upset as a parent if I thought that my child had to go through a test, a province-run-and-financed test only so there would be nothing come of it. I mean, come on, let us make a little sense with some of our arguments because some of these sure do not make any sense at all. *( 15 50) Another myth.

Studies show that testing of young children is neither reliable nor valid. Well, again, is the government of Manitoba the only one that ever suggested a test for a child at that age? I think that teachers probably get into the habit of administering tests at a very early time. I cannot remember directly how many I had in Grades I or 2 or 3, but I am sure that tests occur other than simply tests mandated by the provincial authorities. So the myth is that studies show that testing of young children is neither valid nor relia ble.

Now, I would like to find out more about that research because the research that I know of, in fact, shows that testing, particularly at the early grades, provides a meaningful opportunity for intervention. Now, if Grade 3 was as far as anybody ever went in school, you might have an argument on this part of it. But you have a lot of grades to go through after Grade 3.

So I would like to see that research that suggests that testing is not reliable or valid and show it to every teacher in Manitoba who probably administers tests of his or her own and tell them that their tests are not valid that they have been doing all these years. Testing allows strengths and problem areas to be identified and allows for real progress to be made to improve student learning. That is what this is all about, and I do not understand the New Democrats being against testing like this. The other myth is that classroom teachers are encouraged to teach to the test.

This has become a favourite group of buzzwords brought in by the New Democrats, that teachers are teaching to the test. Well, excuse me again, the tests are all about the curriculum, the curriculum which is what is required, the curriculum which is developed by teachers, Manitoba teachers in Manitoba, and Manitoba teachers are telling me it is an excellent curriculum, so why would you not test to that curriculum? They are saying they are teaching to the test. Well, teach the curriculum and the test will be fine. That is my understanding of how this works.

So classroom teachers are being provided with strengthened curriculum which supports student learning, good curriculum and good curriculum support documents, research docu ments. I have been shown all kinds of material the teachers have to look at. They have shown me this material in the context that they would have liked more time to be able to deal with all that curriculum and all that material. That is understandable, and we need to work with them

June 1, 19 99 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2033 on that and be reasonable with them and not ask them to do the impossible. But teachers should be teaching to the curriculum, teaching to the test, teaching to the curricu lum. What is the difference? If you are teaching to the curriculum, then the tests which are aligned with the curriculum will not be the problem that some of these myth makers are suggesting. Here is another big myth: testing costs $15 mill ion annual ly. That is not true.

The testing program represents a mere 1 percent of the overal l Education budget, currently about half that amount, so it might approach $15 million when it is fully imple mented, but it has not come anywhere near that yet because it is not fully implemented. The Manitoba government believes this money is well spent as part of both the responsibili ty and an obli gation to parents, schools, teachers, students and taxpayers to provide accurate, fair and reliable information about student progress.

Without standards or testing there would be no reliable or consistent means of measuring student knowledge to ensure students are learning at the levels required by today's society. There is a lot of science, a lot of work, a lot of skill, a lot of knowledge and commitment and people involved in putting this whole New Directions business together, and by saying this is a waste of money is a real slap in the face to literally hundreds and thousands of dedicated professionals in this province who have put so much in on behalf of today's children.

To have that said about them, well, you know, somebody should think about the teachers and the others that are involved in this once in a while and be a little more fair in their comments, especially when they are going around making up stories. Without standards or testing, students could be passed through the system with problems or difficulties that could go undetected and unresolved and cost many more milli ons of dol lars later on, and this is the point I was making.

Not only that it costs a lot of money, it is ju st unkind to send a kid through six years before you make a determined effort to find out if the child has been learning anything that has been part of the curriculum.

This deals with the Grade 3 issue, and I can understand people who do not want to put children, be unkind to kids and that sort of thing, but I maintain that it is very unkind to let them go through 12 grades of school and whatever else they go through and find themselves unprepared to face real life at a time when their parents would not mind if they got out of the house and started living independently, and they are simply not able to because we forgot to remember to have standards in our education system and to make sure that we are meeting those standards.

That is very unkind and certainly not forward looking at all. Without standards or testing, students could be passed through the systems, as I said, with problems and difficulties undetected, and you know what that can cost later on in unemployment insurance and welfare, despon dency, mental illness and all the things that can go with a bad education experience. So what is wrong with making education a positive experience by showing young child ren that being tested is part of life. We are all tested in one way or another in our life experiences, and so now I am told that this is really hard on kids.

Well, sometimes I think kids are taught that it is hard. Well, why do that? If you want a child to learn are you going to start by saying, now this is really going to be nasty, boys and girls? Is that really the way to go about it? I do not think so. There is a better way to do it and thousands of children are experiencing that better way to do it. Approximately 13 ,000--I am going by last year's number -are writing that Grade 3 exam this year.

I know one experience in one of our schools in Manitoba where somebody got 16 parents all riled up about the Grade 3 exam, and they were all going to refuse to have their kids write the exam. A very responsible school division leader in that division, I can name him, I think, and he deserves a little bit of credit for the good work that he did, Rick Plaisier from the Fort Ia Bosse School Division made it his business to make sure the parents involved knew what the benefits of this program is all about. So it was 16 ; by the time Rick Plaisier was finished, of the 16 , Mr.

Chairperson, 13 wrote the test this morning, two of them were excused for legitimate reasons, one at the end of the day refused to do it. I would say that is a shame for that one because that child will not have the benefit that

2034 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA June 1, 1999 the other 13 are going to have, but it is a question of knowing the facts and, you know, when you want to do damage, I guess one of the best ways to do damage is to go about your business with not putting accurate facts before the public. But what is encouraging to me is that Manitobans are not to be fooled by people who have other interests at heart other than those of the children, the overwhelming astounding majority of Manitobans are totally 10 0 percent behind a good quality education for their kids.

They know that child ren are able to handle testing scenarios that are designed by Manitoba teachers with the best interests of child ren at heart. It is incumbent upon government to make sure that students are provided with the proper tools for success as early as possible so they have the opportunity to achieve their full potential in life. Every step we take to deprive kids of that quality education that we are talking about is in a sense either taking money out of their pockets or depriving them of opportunities for happiness later on in their lives.

I think we do quite a disservice when we engage in campaigns to get rid of standards testing, especially when you do it with a whole bunch of bogus information. The Manitoba government's vtston for education is very clear. Manitoba students in an environment of care and support and safety and rigour are going to be among the best educated in this country or perhaps anywhere in the world. A strong public education system strives to ensure that effective learning takes place in schools and that all students have the opportunity to achieve success.

In further reference to the points raised by the honourable member, the member asked if there are so many school-in itiated courses dealing with technology, she asks whether there are gaps in what the province is providing schools. Well, no, the vast majority of the Sl Cs read into the record yesterday are SICs developed locally for instruction within the senior year's technology education program.

School divisions want programming within the senior year's technical education program to be based on local needs, current emplo yment trends and opportunities, and they want this to occur with the high degree of flexibility that they require. They want to be able to be responsive with the local curricula, particularly as it relates to technology, the very nature of which is dynamic and ever changing, frequently very quickly. They want this local curricula to be responsive to local opportunities for their students, so you cannot be dogmatic about these things.

That is the one thing that should be very cl ear, especially for educators and people interested in education. Dogmatism and phil osophy are simply things of the past. We have to provide a relevant education for our children, so you need a balance of something that suggests good levels of standards, but within that scenario, the kind of flexibility that allows for local issues to be properly aired in our schools properly prepared for. We are just trying to find that balance all the time, and I guess the debate always surrounds philosophy.

For example, the whole issue of the questions raised by the honourable member about the Athena proposal. Well, you know, there are some who are just going to say, this is not for us. We will get our kids to learn about the news of the world, the news in some other way because we do not want to be captive of any particula r contract, arrangement. We do not want them to see Athena's news, and we do not want them to see their commercials. I think the honourable member is probably, at this point at least, more conversant with the details of what is coming out in these contracts.

She has asked me to look into some things that she has heard about, and I am going to be doing that. But is she suggesting to me that school superintendents and school business officials and teachers and parents are not able to wrestle with these issues as well and come up with the answers?

I did make that commitment earlier today in Question Period to look at the details of the contractual arrangements as they were raised with me without looking at the contracts themselves, as the specific questions raised by the honourable member in Question Period today is something that I undertook to look into and to review, so I will do that. Ms. Friesen: Well, I can sense the minister's keen disappointment in my not having asked particula r questions in Question Period today, but the minister has taken his allo tted 30 minutes

June 1, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2035 in response to a question about the testing of foundation skills. He has given, I think, a very coherent case based on a particula r philo sophy, although he wanted to suggest that philosophies were out the window, but it is a particula r philosophy. What he has put together, I think, is the coherent case for the government's position, has a number of internal inconsistencies I would argue. I am sure we will have the opportunity to argue that at certain points over the next year.

It is based upon some myths and some quite large assumptions on the part of the minister, but it certainly is, as a collection of statements, a very interesting one, and one that I am sure Manitoba parents will want to examine and to think about. I am interested in the minister wanting to talk to parents about this, because previous ministers have not been interested in talking to parents about this. There has been a very strong tendency in this department to send civil servants to talk to parents, rather than the minister or other members of the Legisla ture to make the poli tical argument.

It is one I have raised a number of times with different ministers; it is not new. So I look forward, I mean, the minister has his arguments in line, I think, and I hope that he will be talking to parents about this. There was one parent forum which did deal with tests, and it was one where the department chose to essentially lect ure for I think most of the morning, all of the morning, in fact, trying to explain-! will put the best cast on it that I can-to parents what the department's and government's purpose was in testing. It was difficult, at that point, for parents to get their own views across.

They had to make special requests to have forums, at that meeting, where there own views could be expressed. So if the minister is interested in debating this, he cl early is, I hope that he will do it at the pol itical level, that he will do it himself, and that he will not be sending civil servants to bear this message over and over again. For example well, we will not go into examples. In fact, there are quite a few and I think were there on the record before.

I think the long-term impact of this is to politicize the civil service in a way which I do not think is right, and I hope the minister is essential ly breaking new ground here. It is clear that the minister cannot be everywhere at once. I accept that, but there are many MLAs on the government side who could take this message, a political message based upon a particula r philosophy. There is a coherent statement of it now, and that could be taken to discuss with parents, and I encourage the minister to do that. Mr. McCrae: Mr.

Chairman, I lis tened carefully to the honourable member, and I think she is talking about something I am not famil iar with. It may be that in the early days of education renewal, there were-when you are making pretty significant changes, which the ones we have been working on could well be characterized as, there is a big job of public communication called for, and I am sure that just having the human resources around to cover it the minister alone cannot do it without a lot of help. If you are talking about members like the honourable member for Pembina (Mr.

Dyck), for example, who has done and is doing an excel lent job not only as a member of the Legisla ture but as a legisla tive assistant in the Department of Education and Training, who, when it is not possible for myself to physically be present because of scheduling issues, I cannot remember a time when I have asked him to help out and he has said no. That is the kind of person he is. He is committed to the education of our child ren, and maybe that is reflected in his career as a public person and in his career as a teaching professional, and I appreciate that.

But with all the nice things I can say about the honourable member for Pembina, he is not the only one out there who is willing to be involved in a reasoned discussion and sharing of the facts. I hope the honourable member did not mean to be taking pot shots at officials in the Department of Education and Training who do not approach things, as far as I am aware, from any kind of philo sophical or ideological approach. We have a job to do. The department was given direction by the government of Manitoba that we have to have some level of consistent standards in our education system,

2036 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June I, 1999 and we need, to go along with that, some relevant curricula for which standards should be set in the whole system of education renewal. I think that while people might very well have their own personal likes and dislikes, the department reflects the leadership provided by the government of the day, whichever govern ment happens to be in power. * (16IO ) In this case, it was a very progressive government that sees a bright future if we make the right arrangements for it.

I am not saying that the officials of the Department of Education and Training did anything more than what they were directed to do, and that is to attend, if this is what the honourable member is referring to, meetings to inform the public of what is going on. That may have happened simply because that needed to happen. The honourable member knows very well being the popular person that she is, she gets lots of invitations to things and simply cannot be everywhere. Sometimes she will ask someone else to attend on her behalf, and I have done the same thing.

I have asked my deputy minister to cover for me on occasion, and if he could not do it, he might find someone else to cover for a particula r function. I mean, if somebody invites the minister, it is too bad if the minister cannot make it, but if the minister asks someone else to go, I think that there is nothing wrong with that.

In fact, the Deputy Minister of Education-! should not dwell on him so much because there are lots of people in the department, but these are important jobs, these are important functions that they carry out, and I know that there is nothing wrong with parents meeting with deputy ministers of Education or ministers or opposition members or teachers or principals or anybody else. I understand that the Deputy Minister of Education has been involved extensively in forums and in discussing many things.

I mean, this gentleman has a background in education which has for a number of years now been respected by the people of this province. He may, from time to time, have an opinion, everybody does, but I think that consistently he and his senior staff and everybody else that I know of in the Department of Education have reflected what has been set out by the government of the day. That is what it is all about. The deputy minister also meets with the parent council association and the trustees assoc1at10n.

In fact, today I asked that my deputy minister find out more what is going on in the city of Winnipeg, Winnipeg No. I. I read the papers where there has to be a misunderstanding here. The chairman of the board of the Winnipeg School Division is saying that testing is a parental choice. That is news to me. Being otherwise tied up with other commit ments, I have asked my deputy minister to review that matter. Same as the issue in another division where the honourable member for Inkster (Mr.

Lamoureux) was raising the other day, issues related to some alleged irregularities in one of our school divisions respecting the security issues around the whole issue of the testing. I have asked my deputy minister to inquire as to the latest status of that matter raised by the honourable member for Inkster because the member wants to know. We have been trying to keep up on our undertakings with the honourable member for Wolseley. The member for Inkster wants to know where we are at with that.

I needed sort of an update on that myself, just so that I can share that information with the honourable member for Inkster. Somebody is alleged to have done some thing wrong in respect to an important part of the school system, a person who has a responsible position in the administration of province-wide testing scenario. I mean, everybody in the system needs to know that everybody else is following the rules of this. The honourable member for Inkster raised this matter. Well, it was the Deputy Minister of Education who was asked initially to look into the matter. That is an appropriate function.

Ministers have to be realistic enough to know that no matter who or where, people can make mistakes, do things wrong. I think ministers' jobs are to ensure that there is always a process in place to ensure that nobody can be the subject of a witch hunt or unfair treatment or

June 1, 19 99 LEGI SLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 2037 anything like that. I think those are appropriate roles for ministers to play. When it comes to explaining the policies, once the policies are very clea r, it is not a political function to go out and to tell a parent council, for example, perhaps invited, perhaps sent in the place of a minister or a politician to be there to answer questions about the operation of a particular policy. That is not new.

I remember being in Reston, Manitoba, in 19 85, I guess it was-no, 19 87-the previous New Democratic government had wanted to shut down the Reston RCMP detachment, so there was going to be a meeting about that. The people in Reston were not happy with that proposal. How would you like to be living in Reston where your nearest detachment would be the detachment in Virden? I cannot remember exactly how many miles, but, having driven it enough times, I should. It is a long distance away. In any event, Roland Penner was the Attorney General of the day. He and the M

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-5-36
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 5th hansardpdf 36.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	f2ec8a8ff87a687cdd6e379bca9b73a3687182a0

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