Manitoba Hansard — 24 April 1962 (Sitting 77, 26th Legislature, 5th Session)

26-5-77

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly Of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable A. W. Harrison Vol. VII No. 77 2:30 p.m. Tuesday, April 24, 1962 . 5th Session, 26th Legislature Printed by R. S. Evans. Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba, Winnipeg

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Tuesday, April 24th, 1962. Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Presenting :petitions. Reading and Receiving Petitions. Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees. Notices of Motion. Introduction of Bills. Before I call the Orders of the Day this afternoon I should like to introduce to the mem bers of the Manitoba Legislature some 41 members of Tabor College, Hillsboro, Kansas. They are here as a choir and touring the Province of Manitoba. They are some 1, OOO miles away from home. They are under their director Dr.

Paul Wohlgemuth and Leonard J. Frantz. We are always happy to have our American cousins with us and we're particularly happy this afternoon to have them visit our Legislative Assembly. In the galleries of the House they look down on democracy at work. Our democracy, of course, is very similar to that used in the State Legislature in Kansas. Possibly we do things just a little different than they do in America, but the results are the same and we are both strong advocates of democratic govern ment. Orders of the Day. MR. M.A. GRAY (Inkster): Mr.

Speaker, before the Orders of the Day; No. 1, I'd like to know who gave me a cigar -- the first time in my life -- (Interjection) -- · No, this is an extra one. Can anyone. confess? Secondly, temperature; I notice it is 75 above today. I'm just wondering whether the Leader of the House would permit us farmers to retire for the rest of the session. HON. DUFF ROBLIN (Premier) (Wolseley): Mr.

Speaker, my intelligence, which I trust is accurate, has informed me that we are in the debt of the Honourable Member for St George for the cigars that everyone finds on his desk today, because of a very notable event in his family, namely the birth of a daughter, of a baby girl.

I confess that it is a relief, for me at any rate, to be able to open the session today on such a pleasant note and to be able to say, as I know I can, speaking for all the members of the House, that we congratulate the honourable member on this great event, and we send our very warmest good wishes to his wife and to his new daughter and we can join unanimously in that sentiment of regard. MR. G. MOLGAT (Leader of the Opposition) (Ste. Rose): Mr.

Speaker, before the Orders of the Day; my two colleagues, the Leader of the House and the Member for Inkster beat me to it; I was going to make the announcement on behalf of, not the Member for St. George, Mr. Speaker, who is quite able to speak for himself, but his wife who yesterday presented Manitoba and the Liberal Party with one more member. I am authorized to say on behalf of the Member for St. George, Mr. Speaker, that the First Minister need have no wor ries -- the cigar is not loaded. ·we are very happy, Mr.

Speaker, on this occasion; this hap pens not too frequently here in the House that these events take place, and on behalf of our group I am certainly very pleased to see this event and we join with all the others in congratu lations to Mrs. Guttormson and the Member for St. George. MR. A. R. PAULLEY (Leader of the New Democratic Party) (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, I am very happy on behalf of my group to extend, particularly to Mrs. Guttormson, our sincere congratulations and best wishes. We trust that mother and daughter are doing very, very well.

I must confess that I -- in all due deference to the Leader of the Opposition, that after the babe has really come to the age of discretion that she does not become a Liberal. However, Mr. Speaker, I do want to say "thank you" to the Honourable Member for St. George for his kind ness in presenting to each .of us a cigar in celebration of this very eventful occasion, and trust that he may repeat on numerous occasions in the future. MR. ELMAN GUTTORMSON (St. George): Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to extend my thanks to the Premier for his kind and courteous remarks; he says he's happy to open it on a pleasant note and I'm in full accord with him, and I sincerely thank him for his kind remarks because I know he meant them. I'd like to also apply the same remarks to my Leader and that of the April 24th, 1962 Page 2135

(Mr. Guttormson, cont'd.) .•..• Leader of the NDP. I'd just like to say that the baby arrived yesterday afternoon at 4:00 o'clock. She weighed 7 pounds, 7 ounces. We're going to call her Susan. We had hoped for a boy; however, the main thing is that the baby is healthy and that's the most important thing of all, and I'd like to again repeat my thanks to everyone who has been so kind. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. MR. MOLGAT: Before the Orders of the Day, I wonder if the Minister of Agriculture would have anything further on the flood situation.

I notice that the river is still going up at a rather alarming rate in the City of Winnipeg and if he had anything further to report -- also if he could now advise the House of the financial arrangements which will be offered municipali ties for any flood protection works that they are undertaking. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, if I may, before the 'Minister answers, in order to save time, ask him :whether a survey has been made of the situation in respect of the Seine River, and is there any likelihood of flooding in my general area which he is aware of? HON. G.

HUTTON (Minister of Agriculture and Conservation) (Rockwood-Iberville): My information, Mr. Speaker, is that the danger of flooding east of the river has not made it self evident at this time. There ha s been flooding in the area west of the Red River. This flooding has fairly well subsided at this time. It was caused, as I reported before, by the fact that the run-off occurred before the streams and channels had cleared themselves of ice and snow. The flooding occurred on the Assiniboine was the result of ice jams.

The director motored to Portage yesterday afternoon and returned and reported to me that the ice jams seem to have cleared pretty well in the area west of Headingley. There is a lot of ice in the Winnipeg area at the present time but it is moving, and the ice is -- for that matter it's concentrated pretty well in the Osborne Street area and eastward. There is no danger of flooding at the present time. The report of the Flood Forecasting .Committee of 21 feet to be reached on Fri day still stands. They believe that it is a safe forecast.

The Red River is now dropping in the Fargo area; as a matter of fact it has dropped three feet. There appears to be a break in the crest, one coming in from the US and the other occasioned by the very quick run-off in Manitoba. This is indicated by the fact that levels at Letellier are not rising at the same rate as they are further upstream and further downstream. It's anticipated that, as I say, that we'll reach the crest on Friday; that it will be 21 feet or less.

We have a man travelling between Winnipeg and the Internati onal Boundary visiting the communities and discussing the situation with the municipal officials in the different communities and taking any steps that they request and that is considered necessary. The one centre where there could be some flooding, Morris has received careful scrutiny and it appears that even there flooding will not be of a serious nature. The forecast -- the weather forecast -- the five-days forecast is for dry weather, no precipitation, and if this holds we should get through this critical week without too much damage done.

I would also report that we are sending out a team to make a survey of the damage that has taken place so that they can report back to my department so I can make recommendations in respect to damage that has taken place. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Minister for his statement.· I didn't get, though, an answer to my question regarding the sharing of costs. Yesterday when I asked the Minister I appreciate that he may not have had the information right at his fingertips, but as the situation develops surely the government has a plan which it can discuss with the municipali ties and advise them.

Can he not tell the House now? MR. ROBLIN: Before the Orders of the Day are called, I would like to lay on the table of the House, Return to the Order of the House No. 32 on the motion of the Honourable Member for St. George, and Return to the Order of the House No. 27 on the motion of the Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. E. R. SCHREYER (Brokenhead): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to direct a question to the Attorney-General.

Was his department in any way in volved in the incident several days ago where the RCMP interrogated a high school student in a school in his constituency, and if his department was involved in any way, could he make a statement -- pertinent statement -- to the HoLE e at this time, if it was involved? HON. STERLING R. LYON, Q.C. (Attorney-General) (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, I can tell the honourable member that the first information I had of this matter was what I read Page 2136 April 24th, 1962

(Mr. Lyon, cont'd.) ..•.. in the newspaper. I noted also from the newspaper, and have no direct knowledge of it other than from the newspaper, that the Minister of Justice at Ottawa made reference to this matter, and I can only presume that it was carried out by RCMP acting in accordance with instructions received from federal authorities, or I should say RCMP -- to be more correct -- RCMP who report to the federal authorities, because Mr. Pope said they were not acting on instructions from federal authorities. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Agriculture.

Is it correct, then, that the government has no plans for financial assistance to municipalities in the matter of flood protection at this moment? MR. HUTTON: Yes, we have plans and arrangements for paying for them and will be looked after. MR. D. L. CAMPBELL (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, might I ask the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture or his colleague the Acting Minister of Public Works, if any damage was done to the Highway No. 4 west in the Baie St. Paul area from the flooding and the over flow across the highway? MR. WALTER WEIR (Acting Minister of Public Works) (Minnedosa): Mr.

Chairman, my information is that there was some small amount of damage done. I don't think that it was particularly extensive, but I haven't the full report on it as yet. MR. CAMPBELL : I suppose, Mr. Speaker, that the road is still open; it didn't cut it off? MR. WEIR: · As far as I know the road is still open, although there is a weak spot on one side of the road and I believe they have flagmen on, making the traffic stay to one side of the road. · MR. HUTTON: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to report there was some damage to buildings, I understand, in the area of Avenue Hall where the ice came over the dikes and there was a breach in the dikes at that point. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day as well, I would like to address a question to the First Minister. Hansard of yesterday and the newspapers this morn ing report that the RCMP will be investigating the source of my information regarding the Churchill statements that I made in this House last week. Well I can say that to this time I have not received a visit from the RCMP; I am awaiting them anxiously, Mr.

Speaker, but they haven't come yet. I wonder if the First Minister could indicate whether it will now be standard practise that when the Opposition bring up matters in the House that the RCMP will be put upon the trail of the information, because if that is so then we will naturally want to tighten our securit y -- MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, I'll try to see that my honourable friend doesn't have to wait too long for the visit to which he refers.

I think that the explanation in this particular case is quite ciear, and that is the charge was made that we had distributed this document for im proper purposes and abridged the privileges of the House in so doing. That is not the case; we have not done so, and there obviously has been some irregular activity on the part of some person -- or it appears that that is the case -- and we think that it would be wise to look into this so that we may set at rest any fears that members may have that their privileges were in fact abridged by us. MR. T. P. HILLHOUSE, Q. C. (Selkirk): Mr.

Speaker, with regard to the quest ion asked by my Leader, I'd like to direct a question to the Attorney-General. In the event of an arrest has bail been set? MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Speaker, wouldn't it be fair that inasmuch as one member of the Opposition is forewarned when the police are being put on his trail, if there are any others outstanding, could we have a similar warning too? MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, I propose that the House should proceed to Committee of Supply, so I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Welfare, that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. April 24th, 1962 Page 2137 l.

Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for St. Matthews in the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN: Department XV , Resolution 88. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, before we start off on the new department, if I may, before the Minister makes a statement. We presume that they will be going into Capital Supply following the completion of this department and what is left outstanding in Treasury. Could the Minister indicate when we will be receiving the sheets indicating the appropriation of Capital Supply?

If we could have them reasonably early before the discussion, I think we would facili tate the discussion. MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, I think that's an acceptable suggestion. I expect that af ter the estimates have been concluded in this Committee that we will rise for concurrence, as I recall the procedure, then we go back to Supply. I ask is that correct? That's -- so that it will be some little time yet, but I'll try and have these statements with respect to Capital Sup ply ready some time today. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. Executive Division, (a). MR. JOHN A.

CHRISTIANSON (Minister of Public Welfare) (Portage la Prairie): If I may presume upon the patience of the House, Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a short state ment. Since assuming the responsibility for this department, Mr. Chairman; I have had the opportunity to visit all the district offices operated by the department and I have been tremen dously impressed by two things. One, is the reservoir of goodwill and affection tha� is left by my predecessor the Honourable Minister of Health.

I can report to you, Sir, that he is held in the highest regard by all the people in the department, and this I think is only rightly so be cause he has done a wonderful job during the most difficult days of this department. The other thing that impressed me was the competence and loyalty of all the staff in the department, but particularly those at the supervisory level. Under the Honourable Member for Gimli, Mr. Chairman, a revolution took place in welfare administration here in Manitoba.

Now this revolution, Sir, was only possible because of the dedication and the outstanding work of all the staff in the department, but I would like to pay particular tribute to the Deputy Minister, Mr. K. 0 Mackenzie, and to the Director of Wel fare, Mr. Sid McArton. I think, Sir, that it is largely through their skillful and understanding efforts and through the full co-operation of all the staff that it has been possible to go as far as we have gone in the implementation of the Social Allowances Act. I would say, Sir, that we are not yet out of the woods.

The waiting lists are still much longer than we would like them to be, and while the staff always tries to give priority to emergencies, it is sometimes impossible to process applications as fast as we, or the applicants, would like it, and until we have been able to properly complete the tasks we have already undertaken, it will not be possible to proclaim the few remaining sections of the Act. We have, however, removed from the municipalities the major portion of the long-term welfare load; the aged, the infirm, the child welfare and nearly all the mothers' allowance cases.

The bulk of the increases in departmental spending for 1962- 63 are in the social allowance categories. The increases are due almost entirely to .increased case loads, particularly in the aged and infirm groups. The monthly average case load in this class for 1961-62 was estimated at 4, 698 persons and for '62-63 we are estimating 6, 917, a substantial increase. In addition, Sir, I would report that there are some 1, 850 persons in in stitutions who are presently our responsibility and for whom costs are increasing. The department is particularly stressing the rehabilitative possibilities of our welfare program.

In our mothers' allowance cases wherever there is evidence of improper use of funds, the allowances are administered by the social worker until the mother is rehabilitated or, in some cases, educated to the point where they are able to take care of themselves. There is a continual effort being made to help people to become self-sufficient again; to get them off the welfare roles.

Studies have been started with the City of Winnipeg and the Children's Aid Society of Winnipeg, in an attempt to solve the problem of the "hard core" relief families, the so-called multi-problem families that are at the core of our relief expenditures, and we are sure that these efforts will be fruitful in the near future; will start to bring results; and in this regard, Sir, I think everyone, and we, particularly, were pleased to.hear of the research and training grants tha� were recently announced by the federal government in this field. It is Page 2138 April 24th, 1962

(Mr. Christianson, cont'd.) .. .•• only in this way, we feel, that any real progress can be made in reducing the rate of growth of the welfare burden. One other development in the past year, Sir, has been the ac.tivation of the Welfare Ad visory Committee. The functions of this committee besides its advisory role are the setting of rates for the Children's Aid Society, and they also act as an Appeal Board against decisions of the department. I am pleased to re.port that to date there have been no appeals. You will note, Sir, in the estimates of the pensions branch there is an increase of some $450, OOO. 00.

This, Sir, is due almost entirely to the increase of from $55. 00 to $65. 00 a month in the various pension categories. It has been a considerable surprise to me, Sir, too, to see the number of private agen cies that are active in the welfare field. I cannot pay too high a tribute to the invaluable work being done by .the many volunteers who give of their time and money to the less fortunate in our society. Their contributions to the general welfare has been tremendous, and it is our desire to work more closely and effectively with them. Now there's one other program, Mr.

Chairman, about which I would like to say a few words. It's a relatively new program, only two years old, but it's one that while it's modest in terms of money being spent, it's tremendous in terms of its potential for human betterment. I refer, Sir, to our community development program. This program is based on principles that have been used and proven by the United Nations and by Great Britain in areas where there are native populations living in very substandard conditions.

It has been demonstrated, Sir, that no matter how backward a people may appear to be, they still have a desire to better them selves, and if they can be helped with their problems and stimulated to make the effort to over come these problems, they win be able to improve their own lives. The secret here is to start at the social or cultural level at which the people are now, and to help them, through their own efforts, to raise the level of the community in which they live. Under the very able direction of Mr. Jean Lagasse we presently have five men working in this capacity.

The first one was sent into Grand Rapids and here his task was to help the native people to take full advantage of the economic impact upon their community of the hydro development. I can report, Sir, that his efforts have met with great success. There has been organized various community groups, a parent-teachers group, a local citizens committee, a local council. ·There is an integrated school set up at which all the local children -- Indian, Metis, and the children from the con struction camps --are attending.

He has been able, with loans provided by the provincial government -- the local people have been able to build homes for themselves, and I am happy to report that one of these loans has already been repaid and now the people are going on to improve the standard of living in these homes. We feel that this effort has been extremely worthwhile and anybody who goes up to Grand Rapids I'm sure will agree. At Berens River, a pulpwood co-op has been formed. They were able to secure a con tract with the Pine Falls Paper Company to deliver 2, OOO cords of pulpwood.

The co-op then ar ranged for bank loans to finance the operation and the government helped by guaranteeing these loans. We also provided a community development officer who is an expert forestry man, to help with the details of the pulp cutting operatiOn. I'm very happy to report, Sir, that this has been a success. In excess of 1, 500 cords of wood has been stacked at the dock waiting ship ment to Pine Falls. The really important thing about this venture has been that there is now a group in Berens River, a group of businessmen who have successfully completed an economic , venture.

These men are ready and they're willing to undertake new ventures as days go on. And one other factor which I think is very important to note, there has been no relief paid in Berens River for nearly a year. This, I think, Sir, is something of a record, and it shows what can be done when these people are given help and a little leadership in developing their potentials and their talents.

We also have men working at Norway House, which is another very isolated community with a very narrow economic base, and here, too, we can report good success in the formation of local community groups and the start of a fishermen's co-op. We plan, during the coming year, to increase the staff by three community development officers, who will be stationed at Churchill, at The Pas and in the forebay area of the Grand Rapids Power Development.

We hope as well to secure the offices of a placement officer in Winnipeg to aid in the placing of the people from the northern areas in employment in the southern parts of the province. April 24th, 1962 Page 2139

(Mr. Christianson, cont'd. ) .••.. And here, Sir, I would like to pay full tribute to the splendid co-operation that we are receiving from the Department of Indian Affairs, and particularly from Mr. Archie Leslie, Director of the Indian Affairs Branch in Winnipeg. These are but a few, Sir, of the highlights of the department in the past year, and I would be happy to answer any questions which the members may have as we proceed through the items of the department. MR. NELSON SHOEMAKER (Gladstone): Mr.

Chairman, I "\\Ould like to thank the Honourable Minister of Welfare for his very brief outline of the plans for the future in his de partment.

I'm going to limit my remarks at this time to a very few brief questions, but before doing that I would like to endorse what he has already said as regards the staff that come under him, because if there are two departments in which I have a great deal of correspondence, it is with the Department cif Health and the Department of Welfare -- in fact, just today I wrote a couple of letters to the Department of Welfare in Portage la Prairie -- and I find that they are most co-operative with me in all of my requests to them, so I would like to join with him in thanking them very kindly for their sincere co-operation.

Now early, Mr. Chairman, early in the Minister's remarks he made reference to the operative parts of The Social Allowances Act -- I think there are two acts before us; Bill No. 6,

An Act respecting Social Security for residents of Manitoba, and Bill No. 49. I wonder if he could tell us at this time what sections of both are not declared as yet, not declared opera tive -- or if it's simpler, to tell us which ones are operative in both of the bills that I have re ferred to. MR. GRAY: Mr. Chairman, at the outset I want to wish the new Minister strength, consideration, in one of the most important portfolios, outside of health and education, for this government.

I think that his job will be an extremely heavy one because he's dealing day in and day out with human needs and human sufferings, and I do hope that the instructions or other wise of the cabinet, or his Leader, will not deviate him from the importance of his portfolio. His success in the future, politically or otherwise, will depend entirely as to how many sick and suffering people he could help temporary, and perhaps rehabilitate them for the future.

Six thousand niile hundred and seventy applicants being attended to under The Social Allowances Act is quite a large number in this province, because many more, I'm sure, do not apply. We have 57, OOO old age pensioners in Manitoba under the provincial government responsibility and also under the federal government responsibility.

My calculations and my figures given at the time we had submitted the resolution to increase the old age pension indicates that at least half of the 57, OOO pensioners, at least half -- I do not want to repeat all the arguments that I have advanced before and the figures shown -- are on the means test. And the fact that only 7, OOO applied out of about 22 or 23, OOO indicates the dislike of those in need under the means test. People don't like a means test.

I know of many personally; I know of many who have told me that he id advise them to sell the last piece of furniture in the house and then apply for i;; ome fuing under the means test. The average people don't want charity and this bill does not indi cate that this is not charity. For instance, take the application for social allowance; it takes a lawyer to fill it out, and it degrades the people to have to give all this detailed information here.

I'm sure that the very fact that they apply for an extra one, there would only be a very, very small percentage that probably would take advantage of the Social Welfare Bill. You've got four pages of ques tions to fill out. Not everyone can do it; not everyone wishes to disclose his misery and pover ty and tragedy to others, and for this reason they don1t, because this application asks every little detail. They ask even how much investment s he has, or farms, or property, or homes. Surely they wouldn't come up with this application if the y have everything; as a last resort they do.

I said the exceptional one or two but the trouble is with those that administer, they take an example of those who try -- try I say -- to probably obtain it without justification, but there are very, very few. People come around to me -- and I'm not making this statement wildly; I'm not malting this statement to ....... , and this is not a political statement I'm going to make. I'm making this statement -- I saw them coming to me and I tell them where to go. They need the extra money.

I give them the address; I tell them they have to fill out an appli cation and they'll do ev§l.rything for you -- and most of them , from my personal experience, say, Page 2140 April 24th, 1962

(Mr. Gray, cont'd.) •••.. "Oh well, what's the use, what's the use?" So I say that while this is a good bill and covers a certain amount of the immediate and urgent need of some people, the fact that there is 15, OOO who are under the means test on re lief, or on old age pension, did not come up for extra -- and believe me, they need, it. Even $65. 00 a month under the present cost of living is not sufficient to keep the body and soul to gether, and let me remind the Minis�r of one thing, as soon as the $10. 00 a month was in creased the rent went up, and the cost of living is going up.

And while I admit that you have a heavy job; and while I admit that you have a lot of headaches dealing with the thousands of those sufferers, at the same time I say that The Social Security Allowance Bill has not covered -- the program has not solved the problem, to the need of introducing this bill. I think perhaps that if he would have increased the old age pension to at least a livelihood, I don't think he would need this bill entirely. I have a lot of confidence in the people, particularly those who suffer.

They are not going to abuse; and they are not going to ask for a handout unless they definitely need it. So all I can say now, we cannot do anything to change it -- only a voice in the wilderness. The government has made up their minds to this but they cannot blame me for bringing it to the at tention of the House that this does not solve the problem that you have anticipated or planned on it.

It may help a little to remedy; it may have another vitamin pill to keep them alive for another day or two; but definitely it's not a program to take away the complex, to take away from the people who need it, when they have to go and hand their handout. God knows how bitter it is -- it has been worse before, naturally, but it's bad enough now, and I'm definitely not satis fied with this bill as it is. There should be a lot of improvements made and particularly a little bit of humane interest.

I'm no.t blaming the Minister; he may be the boss, he may be an indi vidual in the province, but he has hundreds of people working under him and their idea is -- I'm making this statement and probably it will be denied, but I'm making it anyway -- their idea is, "see that we don't spend $100, OOO or $300, OOO or $800, OOO; the less we spend the better it is," and it's a natural thing when a man deals with misery, unemployment, relief and what have you.

The natural thing for them is to see, be sure, be doubly sure that no one could get something in which legally -- legally I say and again legally -- he's not entitled to. This is as far as the Social Allowance. I don't think I'll have a chance to speak again and I don't want to hold up this House. I'm as anxious to go, to have the House prorogued as anyone else, but I'm going to make another last appeal to the administration for reconsideration -- not now; I know it's not going to help me and I don't want to fool myself -- but give it consideration again during the year for an in crease of-the old age pension.

Firstly, as I stated, there are about 15, OOO old age pensioners who are on the list under the -- what do you call it -- the means test, which is a miserable thing. It has been improved in the last 20 years since I'm here, but some under the means test are not applying, that have no other moneys -- so if you could consider between now and next year, before the federal election is ...... or before the provincial elections are ....... be- cause elections are a very good thing, I wish we would have them every year.

Every time they had an election the last few years, one gave $6. 00, the other one gave $9. 00, another one gave $10. 00; it's a very good thing; but elections are not being held every_ day or every year, so we cannot hope for it, but give serious consideration again to increase the old age pension. It would save you a lot of money to pay out under The Social Allowances Act, which the province alone is paying it out, and the other one would be with the federal government or the federal government alone. That's what it should be.

So consider very seriously that an increase be given by the next year or during the year. I remember distinctly, Mr. Chairman, that at one time when Mr. Garson was the Premier of this province and we were fighting for a $5.00 deal when the pension was $25. 00 and it was refused. But three weeks after the House adjourned, or prorogued, he raised it $5. 00. I realize, Mr. Chairman, that the government cannot accept generously a suggestion of a motion from our group. I realize it.

After all, they've got their own prestige; they want their own credit; they don't want to give credit to anybody; but be lieve me I don't want the credit, I want the cash. I realize it -- but I think perhaps with the new Minister of Welfare, who is a young man, humane, charitable, means well, still young; he has the future ahead of him; he is still dreaming about being the Premier of this province -- I think everybody dreams except me, because I won't live that long -- but he's still dreaming April 24th, 1962 Page 2141

(Mr. Gray, cont'd.) ....... about it; that he arrl the Minister of Health and the Treasurer should give this very, very serious consideration. All I can say now, Mr. Chairman, is this; I wish the Minister health, good luck and I hope that he will use his efforts, his persuasion, his independence to see that no one in a world of plenty should suffer and have to go to the of fice and stand in line begging for another dollar, for what? To keep his life, to keep his body and soul together. MR. D. ORLIKOW (St. John's): Mr.

Chairman, no member of this House could of course question the fact that there have been very large increases in the amount of money spent for the provision of public. welfare in this province, and that therefore the conditions of the people who are receiving assistance are substantially better than they were when this govern ment took office. At the same time I think that there is a tremendous gap between what is being done and what needs to be done. Indeed, Mr.

Chairman, there is a very large gap between what is being done in the year 1962 and what this government proposed to do when it brought in its famous Social Allowances Act in 1959. I'm glad to see the present Minister of Health moving over beside the Minister of Welfare be.cause I want to remind him about some of the things which he said this Act would do, and some of the timetabling which he predicted as of three years ago -- timetabling which is probably the worst in the history of any government or any minister.

Predictions of several months' delay have now lengthened into three years with no indications as to any real change. I want to say to the present Minister of Public Welfare that I don't know how he says there are only a few people affected by the provisions of the Act which have not yet been proclaimed. I can tell the Minister -- and I hope that the First Minister doesn't send the RCMP around to find out where I get my information -- but I can tell the Minister that according to one of the top people in the field of public welfare in the city -- MR. ROBLIN: ......... • complicity. MR.

ORLIKOW: No, no, I'm not charging you with anything; I'm just expressing the hope that you don't start trying to find my sources of information. MR. ROBLIN: .......... charge me with complicity. MR.

ORLIKOW: According to one of the top people in the field of welfare in the City of Winnipeg, who estimated for me the number of people -- only in the City of Winnipeg -- who would be provided for if the government were to proclaim the sections of the Social Allowances Act which have not yet been proclaimed; that in the City of Winnipeg alone there are 3, OOO people who should be getting assistance who are not yet receiving assistance.

Now it may be -- the Minister may argue that they are receiving public welfare from the City of Winnipeg and that the province is picking up 80% of the cost so that nobody is really being hurt, and this may be a fact, but when one compares this method -- which is, to some extent at least, considered by many people as a form of charity -- with the promises which were made by the former Minister of Public Welfare, one realizes how far we still have to go. And as I say, this only applies to the City of Winnipeg.

How many there are in the province as a whole, I have no way of estimating, although 1 do think that it would be very legitimate for me -- or for any member of the House -- to ask how many people there are in the province, who would be covered by the provisions of The Social Allowances Act if it were proclaimed, are not yet covered. I think the department has the staff and the responsibility to make those calculations, because -- (In terjection) -- weli not 23, OOO because -- (Interjection) -- not 23, OOO who are not getting social allowance, because obviously there are many more than that.

There are 25, OOO people of Indian and Metis origin in this province, all of whom under the provisions of the Act which was passed by this government -- proposed by this government, not by the impractical members in this group, all of whom are entitled by law to assistance when the government gets around to proclaiming it, and if the government has no intention of proclaiming it for as long in the future as it has taken since the Act was passed, which is now three years, then I suggest that it was really a disservice to the people involved to write it into the Act at all, because after all, the Act could have been amended at any time and can be amended at any time when the government is ready, or able financially, or if terms are passed to do this, and if there is no intention to proclaim these sections of the Act, then I suggest that they should never have been written into the Act.

And I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the government should -- the Minister should make an attempt to calculate the number of people who would be getting assistance under The Social Allowances Act if the government were to proclaim this matter. Page 2142 April 24th, 1962

(Mr. Orlikow, cont'd.) ..••. Now, Mr. Chairman, I want to point out that we believe that social assistance is not a matter of charity. We believe that all Canadians who are in need are entitled to social assist ance. We believe that the system in Canada -- and I recognize, Mr. Chairman, that we have difficulties, constitutional difficulties, because this program, like so many other programs, the responsibility for it is divided be�een the federal and provincial governments -- but when one compares what is being done in the field of social security in Canada with other countries, it is indeed a sorry picture.

A study made by the International Labour Office Organiza tion of 32 countries in 1957 to see what proportion of the national income in each of these countries is spent on social security, found that Canada stood 17th on the list. In fact, Canada was the lowest of the industrial countries which were surveyed.

For 1957 the amount of the total national income in each of these countries spent on social security ranged from the high in Germany of 20% down to France which spent 17. 9%; New Zealand which spent 12. 8%; Sweden which spent 12. 5%; down to Canada which spent the very magnificent amount of 8. 5% of the total national income. So if o.ne keeps these figures in· mind, Mr. Chairman, we can realize· how far we still have to go -- (Interjection) -- beg pardon? 1957.

Now the Minister will, of course, say that we have increased, very substantially in this province and in Canada as a whole, the amounts that are spent on social security. Unfortunately, the largest increase has come in the field of unemployment insurance, and I don't think that any member of this House would argue that this is socially a very good thing. I'm not suggesting for a moment that it isn't necessary, but it's a sad commentary on the way we are conducting the affairs of this country that we have to increase the amount, the very large amount spent for unemployment insurance.

But for social security as a whole we are down near the bottom of the list. In the field of old age.pensions -- and I certainly don't want to go over in detail the debates which we've had this year and in other years -- we are again down near the bottom of the list. Ca nada began its system of old age pensions in 1926 with pensions of $20. 00 a month.

Today the pensions are $65. 00 a month, but Canada's old age pensioners are really not much better off today than when the pension was the miserable $40. 00 which it was in 1959, If ad justments are made for price increases since 1959, the purchasing power of the $65. 00 a month old age pension which we have today is equal only to $50. 00 in 1949 dollars. In other words, we have gone up a mere $10. 00 a month in the payments to old age pensioners in the last 13 years.

This despite the fact that any calculations made as to need, as to the cost of living by reputable social agencies, have indicated that the minimum cost of living for an old age pen si oner is somewhere between $75. 00 and $77. 00 a mouth.

Now I know the Minister will tell us that over and above the $65. 00 a month which is paid to old age pensioners that the province has established a Social Allowances Act, and under this Act many people who are in need get substantially more -- and I certainly think that this is a step in the right direction, for which this government, or any government following this course, needs to be given the credit, credit which is due. But, Mr. Chairman, I want to tell the Minis ter that we have a long way to go.

First of all, I am told that the regulations which we have re quire a very large amount of work before cases can be processed. And that this is so is ob vious -- and this is not a criticism of the staff. We have established -- and in principle ITm not going to. argue that the government was wrong -- we have established a system whereby people will get assistance on the basis of individual needs. And in principle this sounds very good; and in principle it may be the best system, but what happens in actual practice, Mr.

Chairman, is that since we have to assess each case on the basis of need, each case must have personal interviewing; each case must have personal supervision. And this requires a very large staff-- and I'm not being critical of that. This reqnires a competent staff, but more than that it requires a good deal of time. I am told that people applying for assistance under The Social Allowances Act can wait for anywhere from three to six months before their case is completed.

Now I'm not suggesting for a moment that they will starve during that three or six months, because the municipal agencies handling this act much quicker. They put people on emergency assistance and they look after them. I'm simply suggesting that the system we have created has some very real difficulties. Now, Mr. Chairman, I want to deal just for a short while with some of the things which were promised by this government, to try to assess what we have done and what we have not April 24th, 1962 Page 2143

(Mr. Orlikow, cont'd.) ...•. done, and how far we have to go. I think it's important, Mr. Chairman, because these, after all, were the promises made by this government to the people of Manitoba; the promises made by this government to the members of this Legislature. In fact, Mr.

Chairman, these promises were responsible ostensibly for the 1959 election, be cause the First Minister and the Minister of Health and Welfare at that time argued that the members of the House on this side were hindering their implementation of this wonderful Act, and that because we were hindering the implementation of this Act that it would be necessary to have an election for the government to get a majority so they could get on with the job. Well that was in 1959, Mr. Chairman.

This is now 1962, and the promises which the government made, and which the Minister made, are to a large extent -- I'm not saying entirely because this wouldn't be true -- but to a large extent are not fulfilled. And I think that it's important that governme nts live up to their promises and that governments which make promises be re minded of those promises.

Now let's just look at what was promised; let's just look at what the Minister, the for mer Minister, said, and members can find a wonderful speech -- I wish the present Minister would read this speech and take it to heart and try to implement it -- a wonderful speech made by the former Minister in this House on July 13, 1959. -- (Interjection) -- The dictionary, Hansard -- I wasn't here when they agreed on Hansard, but I certainly want to thank those members who agreed to put it in. It certainly keeps people on their toes.

And here's what the Minister said, and I'm just going to quote a paragraph or two, and the present Minister can find it on Page 877 of the 1959 Hansard, and I quote: "I feel it's probably the most single im portant piece of legislation to come before this session and I think that members of this Legis lature are of the opinion that certain pensioners have needs and these needs should be met as effectively as possible within the resources of the province.

" Later, and I quote again: "The principle behind the bill is to bring at least a minimum standard of living to every citizen of Manitoba who, because of age or disability, physical or mental, is in need, and in the case of children where neglect, desertion or death of the father creates that need. . .. ..... It is de- signed to provide 100% provincial responsibility for the following types of cases where the standards of living conditions demand that needs be met.

The 10 0% provincial responsibility then in the care of the aged and infirm in institutions; neglected children committed by the Courts to Director or to a Children's Aid Society; social allowances for the aged, blind or disabled by way of cash allowance and/or health services, and social allowance to the mothers' allowance type of case. By this I mean that we are taking over under The Social Allowances Act, mothers' allowances as such.

This means complete provincial responsibility on the basis of need for: all widowed mothers with children; mothers and children where the husband has deserted over one year; mothers and children where the husband is in gaol over one year; mothers and children where, due to physical or mental disability or incapacity, or due to dis ability, after 90 days creates needs. Also unmarried mothers with two or more children. We also would extend this to immigrants and to the Indian people whom we consider as Manitoba citizens.

" It's a wonderful speech and a wonderful sentiment, and I suggest to the present Minister what the former Minister said in 1959 was good; it was valid; and it's valid in April of 1963. And I suggest to the Minister, get on with the job. Now, on November the 25th of 1959 the Minister at that time made a speech to the Union of Manitoba Municipalities and here's what he said -- this is why I'm talking about timetabling -- and I quote: "Three groups of needy citizens will have to wait to come under the provisions of the government Social Allowances Act.

Sections of the Act cov.ering aid for unmarried mothers, deserted mothers and children, and the wives and children of men in gaol will not be proclaimed until several months later. " Well, Mr. Chairman, I'd like the Minister to explain; what does several months mean? This speech was made in November of 1959. It's now April of 1963 -- (Interjection) -- 162. I calculate that we're -- (Interjection) -- yes, I calculate that it's almost 30 months, and I suggest that 30 months is not several months, and the question which I want to raise -- and I don't raise it, Mr.

Chairman, because I want to.berate the government about the 30 months which have gone by, although I think it would be legitimate to do so -- the question which I want to raise is: how many more 30 months are going to go by be fore this government proclaims the Act? Now, Mr. Chairman, if the speech which I quoted from had been a speech that I had made, or the Honourable Member for Inkster -- after all, Page 2144 April 24th, 1962

(Mr. Orlikow, cont'd.) ..••. everybody knows that we're impractical people; everybody knows that we don't have to look after the budget; that we don't have to find the money - and if I were simply quoting one of our speeches I think that members on that side would be able to ignore the· speeches. But these are speeches that were made by the responsible Minister. Now, surely he meant them when he said it. I didn't write his speech.

I don't know whether he wrote the speech himself or not, but he certainly made the speech; he certainly has to accept the respon sibility for this speech. -- (Interjection)-- He probably did. They sound like -- bis speeches read like he says them, s.o I'll assume that he wrote it. But he made the speech, Mr. Chair man, and if he made it I assume .that be meant it and I assume that he was speaking for the government. And I think it's a very legitimate question to ask in this Committee: how maii.y . more 30 lllOnths' periods do we have to wait before the government will proclaim its own bill? Now, Mr.

Chairman, I could analyze the bill in detail; I could read out the sections of the bill which have not yet been proclaimed, but I would only be repeating word for word the speech which I made last year, because to my knowledge virtually nothing has been done since last year in terms of changing the provisions of the Act, or in proclaiming provisions of the Act which are not yet proclaimed. So if the questions which I asked last year and the observa tions I made about the people who are not yet covered by the Act still are true, the fact is, Mr.

Chairman, that while we may have the best Act -- about this I'm sure that other provinces would argue -- that we may have the best Act on paper, but the people who are in need cannot really live because we have passed

an Act and it's enacted in the year 1959. The Act only be comes meaningful, Mr. Chairman, surely, as the Act is proclaimed, and as the assistance which is promised to the people who are concerned becomes available. And that, as yet, has not been done. Now, Mr. Chairman, I have one question which I would like the Minister to answer. I would like to get from the Minister -- I notice in the report of the department that there is a figure showing the number of people who are receiving Medicare, who are covered by the Medi care program -- first of all, Mr.

Chairman, I think it's unfortunate that members of the House do not get a printed report of the department as we do with nearly every other department of the government. I think that the Welfare Departll'.l3nt ought not to be a second cousin, a poor cousin. I think that we are entitled to -- and the people of this province -- are entitled to a printed report just as we get in the field of Labour or in Agriculture or in any of the other de partments. But to get to the question of Medicare, Mr. Chairman, we have the numbers who are covered by Medicare, who are getting Medicare coverage.

I think the members of the House should get from the Minister a statement as to who is entitled to Medicare coverage and, even more important, Mr. Chairman, I would like to know whether the government has considered some kind of pamphlet which would be available to people, to explain to people who is covered by provisions of the Medicare Plan; what they have to do to qualify; where they ·have to apply; because I am satisfied from questions which have been asked me, Mr.

Chair man, that there are scores of people -- I might even say thousands of people but, of course, I wo uld only be guessing -- there are thousands of people who are entitled under the present regulations to Medicare coverage who are not getting it, simply because they do not know what the provisions of the regulations are, who is entitled to the assistance, and how they go about getting it. Now, I'm not suggesting that there be any change in the regulations. I'm not saying at the moment that the regulations are too stiff or anything else; but surely, Mr.

Chairman, if the government has inaugurated a plan, if the government has set out certain regulations whereby people coming under certain categories of income or need are entitled to benefit from this program, surely there ought not to be many people who are not getting this assistance, simply because they don't know about our program.

Surely, it's the responsibility of the government department concerned to work out the regulations, to work out the information and to make it available to the people who may be entitled to the assistance so that those who are entitled will be able to apply, will know where to apply, and will be able to get that assistance. Mr. Chairman, there are other matters which I may want to raise later, but I think at the moment that this covers the field in as far as I'm concerned. MR. PETER WAGNER (Fisher): Mr.

Chairman, I was listening to the Minister when he was speaking on this welfare, estimating bis introductory remarks. I took a resume that he gave bis speech on behalf of the Indians and Metis. However, that includes in our Welfare April 24th, 1962 Page 2145

(Mr. ·wagner, cont'd. ) ..... Department other races of people too. Howeve r, I am fortunate to represent two Indian Reserv es, a few Metis , and they don't like to be on welfare just the same as anybody else. They don't like to be told to their face that they are drawing charity. They don't like to be told that the white man is supporting them, -and I would go as far to say that all the race of people , they don't like to be told "you are on welfare" also. Nobody, in my opinion, wants to be on welfare.

It is just unfortunate that we have so many people here in Manitoba - or I could say in Canada as a whole -- that we have to assist them and to provide for their liv ing. If I would be a magician or could create miracles, I hope we could come with some kind of a remedy or a solution that nobody that is physically fit to work should draw welfare , be cause welfare is not a very proud thing to have or to accept, and naturally you have those people, they always needle one and say "I'm giving you a living.

" How ever, what I would sug gest as far as the people on the Reserve, they have no choice but get the welfare , because they have hardly any means of living. Fishing is practically nil; bushwork is practically nil; but I've been telling the government since I'm in this Legislature whe ther it wouldn't be feasible to give these people a certain area of timber ..... that they could use that timber for them selves and subsidize their living. Also, possi bly we could get into some fish processi ng plant or co-op movement.

It seems to me that we are not on our toes to remedy it, or probably only to me it looks that way. However , the Indians they get $5 . 00 treaty money every year and this does not even buy a bag of flour, so it is a very minimum, or I would say practically nil, of as sis tance to the Indian -- $5. 00 per year. He has to have a different means of assistance.

However, as far as education is concerned, we do not provide on the Reserv.e, to my knowledge, any higher than Grace 8 and if there are any Indian students that want to go higher than Grace 8 they are taken away from home and they are planted some place in the residences further from their home, and if I know anything about the Indian students , they apprec iate very much to be as close to the home as possi ble , and I would encourage the Minister that with this school division now, with this bus transportation, we should transport our Indian students to the white schools closer to home, and this would be a better relationship all the way around.

I would like to bring to the attention -- a lot of people come to me and tell me that they have their Chief, their councilmen, an::l these people should approach the Indian Affairs Branch and discuss all these details and come to a solution: And I was surprised to hear that the Chief himsel f draws a s.alary only $20. 00 a year. Well it just isn't possi ble for him to look after the people that he represents because it barely makes him one trip to Winnipeg and back to discuss with the Indians Branch what is the solution. However, Mr.

Chairman, I'm not going to go into detail because I spoke in the past, but I would like to bring to the Minister's attention _a suggestion. During the summer months these people go out hunting; they provide their meat by shoo ting wild game. However, during the hot summer days they have no place to store it, and during .the night this meat is spoiled. The next day the man has to go back into the bush and get another game.

However ,. if we could supply them a locker plant in the Indian Agency or in one of the most suitable places, where they can store this meat and meat products and these perishable goods, we wouldn't have so many deer destroyed or moose or elk, as far as the wild game is concerned: Some people of them, they butcher their own domestic animals, but what happens with it, it spoils in a very short timE) and again they are out of meat.

So I would suggest to the Minister that possibly his department would look into this matter and maybe we would have some freezing box or a locker plant to facilitate these people on the Reserve. My colleague from St.

John's mentioned the Medicare card, and I would like to ask the Minister if possible in a bdef manner that he would indicate or explain in a very low language; in a very -- well I mean low language, not using the high words that the people would have to use a dictionary to find out what he said -- but explain the Medicare card; who qualifies, as my honourable colle ague says; and I would go a little bit further than that.

Those people out in the rural areas, once they have a Medicare card, they have a feeling that the Medicare card pays their doctor bills, pays their hospital bills, pays eve rything that is under the sun, and there are lots of hardships afterwards -- disagreements and grie vance. I was speaking last ses sion and before last ses sion, I was hoping that possibly our local hospitals could treat the people under the policy of "Out P atient" department. I know a very hard transaction has to be made, but nevertheles§l_ we wouldn't have to transport so many people to Winnipeg; we would Page 2146 April 24th, 1962

(Mr. Wagner, cont'd. ) .•... treat them right there at their home villages. So on this, Mr. Chairman, I'm going to sit down, and I hope the Min ister can explain briefly, and I hope the press -- I would call upon the press courtesy that they print it about this Medicare card, and possi bly all the Manitoba people , those unfortunately that don' t unders tand, would read it and get first class information. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairtrfan, I feel that I should say a word or two in connec tion with this department.

I, too, am interested in the ques tion of Medicare cards, but may I first of all join with my colleague from St. John's in sa ying to the Mi nister that for the future he should make provisions for the members of the House to receive a report of his department.

I believe the Honourable the Leader of the Opposi tion and myself are the only two in the House -- possibly the Member for Rhineland, I'm not sure -- who are granted the courtesy of a re port from the department, and I'm sure that had the other members of the House re ceived this report they would have found it very, very enlightening , and they would have seen from the re'... port some areas in which the government has not fulfilled its responsi bilitie s. In particular , Mr. Chairman, would I refer to the question of Medicare cards.

It seems to me that in this particular field the government is not fulfilling its obligations, particularly to our senior citi zens in the Province of Manitoba. I don't know how the government can justify approximately 23, OOO exemptions for the payment of hospitalization costs to those over 65 -- and as we know, Mr.

Chairman, the hos pitalization costs amount to $4. 00 per month single --or family-- and at the same time in respect of Medicare cards , according to the information contained in the annual report of the depart ment, for those who are considered aged and infir m, apart from those on mothers • allowances or wards or relief recipients in unorganiz ed territory, only make provision for approximately 8, 800 Medicare cards . I would suggest, Mr.

Chairman, that if any person, by virtue of a means test as applied to an applicant for social assistance allowance at age 65, is on the basis of that means test relieved of the payment of a hospitalization card or premium in respect of a single person of $2. 00 a month, that they have established the need for this care , but then for the Department of Welfare or the government to say to them, "Sure, we'll exempt you in res pect of hospitalization care, but insofar as the provision of medical care and other health care as provided for by our Medicare card" simply cannot be jus tified in ac·cordance with the facts presented in the department's report.

Because on page nine in the report is made the state ment in the third paragraph: "The Medicare aspects of the Social Allowances program con tinues to be the most signific ant part of the servi ces. Especi ally among the aged is this noted. Elderly people value highly the Medicare card which relieves them of the continuing anxiety of existing or feared medical, optical, dental and drug costs.

" The department or the government recogni zes this factor in respect of hospitalization but they state here the most important as pect of social allowances, or one of the most important aspects of social allowances is the pro vision of a Medicare card. Yet, as I say, on the basis of a means test, which is a rather rigid means test, at age 65 they're exempted from hospitalization and I claim, Mr.

Chairman, that they should be granted immediately a Medicare card on proving in accordance with the strict regulations based on the means test at 65 -- with a Medicare card, and I would like to hear the Minis ter, if he can, justify this situation in respect of Medicare cards . We've had one or two debates this year alre ady, Mr. Chairman, on the ques tion of the application of $10 . 00 increase in the federal pensio ns, old age security and also the old age as sis tance, which of course is shared by the provincial government.

I'm not going into all the details of that debate once again, but I do want to point out to the Minister again, as we did pre viously, that it is our opinion that a greater amount of personal allowances should have been made to those who are on social allowances as a result of the $10 . 00 incre ase. The Minister told us that his department was reviewing the regulations under The Social Allowances Act, and just a week or two ago they were published and if memory serves me correct -- and I must apologize, Mr.

Chairman, that I didn't bring my new regulations with me -- but I think that it was in only one field that there was a slight increase of about $2 . 00 per month per person, and in the meantime, the people in respect of their person al benefits have recei ved naught from this provincial government as the result of the increase of the $10. 00 awarded by Ottawa, or $5. 00 if you want to take it in respect of the contribu tion for those between the ages of 65 and 70. I do want to say this, Mr. Chairman, that we have to have a revision in the whole field April 24th, 1962 Page 2147

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd .) ..... of welfare, not only here in the Province of Manitoba, but in the ·whole scope of welfare across our fair dominion. My colle ague from Fisher made passing reference to this when he spoke of the fact that people do not wish to receive social allowances; they do not wish to be on what we normally term "relief" . It is time for us in legislative bodies across this dominion and the dominion government itself to bring into being a proper system in the approach to welfare, or rather a proper approach to the whole situation.

We must lay more emphasis on the abolition of unemployment in the Dominion of Canada because that is -·· one of the prime contributors to our welfare costs today -- because of the inability in many · cases of individuals having employment of a sufficiently remunerative nature to allow them to provide for their later years. It is time I say, Mr. Chairman, that we have to have a reassess ment of our whole approach to welfare , to our whole approach to the economy of our country, in order that people may have stabilized types of living throughout their liv es .

I ask the Minister in respect of the ever -increasing welfare costs to the municipalities , particularly in our urban areas, would he not agree that the time has come when the taxpayer at the municipal level should not be relieved of the responsibility of supplying even part of the welfare costs ?

Muni cipality after municipality in the Province of Manitoba, and in particular in the Winnipeg area, are being faced with ever -increasing costs for the provision of welfare to those who are unem ployed, to those who are desirous of making their contribution to the economy and to the pro ductivity of our nation, but through no fault of their own find themselves unable to provide for themselves, and I say, Mr. Chairman, it is the responsibility of this provincial government and not the responsibility of the local municipal taxpayer in respect of these increasing burdens. Now I know, Mr.

Chairman, my honourable friend the Minister of Welfare will say to me, 11Do we not absorb 80% of the costs of welfare after it has reached a certain lev el ?" And I say, yes, it is so; but the provincial government aided by the federal government should relieve the municipalities of the total cost of welfare costs from the local taxpayer. So I say, Mr. Chair man, that there has to be a complete overhaul of the whole basis, a new approach to welfare and the costs of welfare in the Province of Manitoba and in the Dominion of Canada.

I would also like to direct a few questions to the Honourable the Minister in respect of elderly housing and the provision for elderly housing. Again! say, it's too bad that this report is not in the hands of all of the members of the House, because if one would read the report on the elderly persons housing, a

section contained in this report, one would see that not very great progress is being made in this field in the Province of Manitoba at the present time; as a matter of fact, tantamount in the report, as I interpret the report, to an admission of this fact. It appears to me that from a supervisor that he suggests that .the time is approaching when we have to have even a reassessment in this matter, but more important even than that, Mr.

Chairman, I would like to hear from the Minister as to whether or not the provincial govern ment is taking any steps to have the federal authority· make a greater contribution in respect of elderly housing, similar to what they do in respect of low rental accommodation at the present time. I do know that in my own city one of the reasons that a hostel type of accommodation for the citizens was turned down, .because of the excessi ve costs.

Whereby there was only a one third contribution forthcoming from the senior authorities in this particular type of housing, only the province makes this contribution, and the cost I'm sure was the factor that was the cause of the· by-law in my city being turned down. So I would like to hear from the Min ister as to what steps the Government of Manitoba is taking to encourage the federal government, either through its own Department of Welfare to make a contribution, or through the Central Housing and Mortgage.

I note that in the report of the department that it seems to me that there is an appeal implied that municipaay-sponsored hostels open to and supported by the entire commun ity will .have to be promoted. I would like to hear from my honourable friend what steps the department is taking in the promotion of these municipal-sponsored hostels . If the department suggests that these should be promoted, I would like further amplification from the Minister as to what he and his department is now doing in respect of this. I think, Mr. Chairman, those are the few points that I would like to raise at this time.

I may have other questions to ask of the Minister again. I, in particular, am interested to hear an explanation of the Minister of the differentiation that there is between those who are eligible to recei ve exemptions from the hospital premium and those in receipt of hospital cards . I pose this ; why is it? . Why is it -- (Interjection) -- you got it? I would just pose one answer -- Page 2148 April 24th, 1962

(Mr. Paulley, cont' d. ) ..... I may answer for him and I might have the right answer . Is it because of the fact that because of the contributions of the premium payers at large it makes it easier and less burdensome for the department to give away -- I use that term very, very loosely -- hospitalization premium cards than the government accepting the full responsibility in respect of medicare cards ? MR. A. J. REID (Kildonan): Mr. Chairman, I would like to make some brief remarks on welfare.

First I would like to congratulate .the Minister on his personal efforts and endeav ours, because I'm sure that he's quite sincere and he's trying to do a good job, but unfortun ately he hasn't been in office for too long a period and we can't actually tell the effect of his efforts or otherwise. But then the present provincial government, that's a different calibre, because as soon as you start discussi ng welfare before them, they seem to think that this associ ates them and classi fies them as a welfare state, and this apparently leaves a bad taste in their mouth.

But we must remember, Sir, that welfare cases have been with us since Bib lical days and always will be with us , so whoever is in power and responsi ble for welfare in this state should plan and organize that the best assis tance should be given for the money spent and I believe the way we can do this , that we should evaluate our whole social welfare program so that it does a job that it was created to do, espec ially in our modern ways and .our modern day of living , which would be brought about through the right mental attitude of the public as far as social services are concern ed.

Because actually, Sir , at the present time social ser vices are greatly the responsi bility of local government and of very little concern as far as the provincial govermm nts are concerned. True , theypay an average of about 40% which the muni cipalitie s claim .

Thus the whole concept will have to be changed because unemployment and welfare cannot be coped with at the present time by local government and should be the respon sibility of provincial and the federal government, because at the present time, Sir, we have too much duplication of welfare throughout Manitoba and most local governments , as far as their welfare program goes, depend on their ability to finance L1ch phases and plans in the first ins tance and then try to collect it from the provincial government on a percentage basis .

The province could start a plan by having a comprehensive pattern and a policy through out the province to standardize welfare assist ance and seek federal financing. The plan I have in mind, Sir, should be based first on human rights and dignity of the citiz en. Second, I be lieve citizens as taxpayers would not object to pa ying their share as citizens in a democracy on this basis . Third, public assist ance should and could be available then to all citizens with a comprehensive welfare plan. Fourth, public information should be available as to use and abuses of same involving penalties.

Minimum wage, Sir, should be raised throughout the country, because in my es timation this would alleviate a great and large majority of our welfare cases at the present time. Sixth, I believe Sir, also, that grants in cash should be available to assist many families to get off welfare and put them back in their place in society.

Seventh , public agencies could be easily established throughout the provinces and thus standardize assista nce which would prevail throughout the province .. ....... these agencies Sir , would have data on their assis tance programs and there would be standard and adequate welfare assis tance avail able to people concerned, but at the present time as I look at the Welfare Act, it's not a very progressive one. No provincial standard of legislation for welfare is available throughout Manitoba. No minimum

schedule for welfare is used as a basis and the welfare program in general has no policy. There's no change in the set-up as far as municipal governments are concerned in their efforts in welfare cases at the municipal level. Because at the present time, Sir, any municipality or city is not forced to assist anyone on a short term basis , which could easily arise due to an unforeseen emergency and so forth, unless the individual can prove that he's absolutely destitute , so thus there's no definite policy actually in wafare assis tance as far as the municipalitie s are concerned. The Indian

section of our soci ety was mentioned by my honourable colleague from Fish er. They receive no provincial assis tance or local assis tance whatever. All their welfare is taken care of by the Department of Indian Affairs which is the responsi bility of the federal government, and this , Sir, creates a great hardship many times for Indian families. Now I think there should be liaison between the provinces, and the federal government to assist these families when help and aid is required, because at the present time, it's when it's conveni ent, or the agent for Indian Affairs has time to invest ma ny of their requests which he received in April 24th, 1962 Page 2149

(Mr. Reid, cont'd) ... ... his area, before they get aid, and I believe , Sir, the provincial ·government could alleviate many of these proble ms immediately if it so desires. The present Social Act, August, 1959,

Chapter 57, proclaimed that the minimum of 40% and a maximum of 80% could be paid to municipalities. I think, Sir, that the provinc e should pay the total 100% welfare costs, then we would have a start on uniform policy throughout Manitoba and second - it's been mentioned in the House here before -- they should proclaim all sections of the Social Allowances Act that have been passed in this House .

This itself would be the first step for a much needed review and assis tance in our Welfare Act, because , Sir, they're actually law now and they're just waiting to be proclaimed; and the provinces should ask the federal govern- - ment to increase the grants that they give the provin ces, because as I understand at the present time, on a percentage basis the federal share is very small. Also, the federal government should share the administration costs. At present they pay nothing towards administration costs of welfare throughout the province s.

Thus , Sir, if the Province of Manitoba proclaimed the sections of the Social Allowances Act, which I've mentione d before are actually law, and they could and should very easily get more help from the federal government, then our welfare prob lem in Manitoba would be greatly improved. MR. A. E. WRIGHT (Seven Oaks) Mr. Chairman, I'm one of those who believe that the health of the nation is the responsibi lity of the nation and that welfare costs should not be paid for by property taxes.

Wben we look today and see the tremendous population shift from the rural areas to the urban areas, and we would take two of our local communities -- I mention Tuxedo and Brooklands -- one can easily see that the tax structure and the welfare problems are in no way similar . We think of municipal taxes as taxes in regard to property, but welfare costs surely should be taxed on the whole country. Now it's true that the municipalities are re ceiving 80% of the costs for welfare -- that is, over one mill -- but times have changed when everybody in a small place knew everyone else .

Some of our municipalities in the Metro area now, have had in this last year some 300% to 500% increase in welfare costs. One city in the Metro area is considering the advisability of appointing a Social Worker, because this is big business now, and it's considered to be desirable to bring in trained personnel. Now that is going to make -- it's certainly going to add to the costs. Now until the federal government is prepared to assume its responsibility for the health of the nation in regard to payment of welfare , I think that the province should relieve the municipalitie s at this time.

It's be coming an an ever-increasing burden and I know that it's the desire of the department here and especially of our new Minister to do the very best that we possi bly can for the people of Manitoba, but I feel very strongly on this, that we are assessi ng the costs of welfare too strongly agai nst our municipalitie s, and that the property tax can no longer carry welfare costs as we know them in this day and age Mr .. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: (

a) passed? MR. CHRISTIANSON: Mr. Chairman, before you pass this item perhaps I should make some remarks about some of the statements that have been made by some of the honourable gentlemen opposite . I would just say to the Honourable Member from Kildonan Sir, that he should, I think, have a look around in Manitoba today and see what is going on, because our soci al allowances legislation is the most imitated piece of soci al welfare legislation that has been introduced in Canada in many years and there is no -- (Interjec tion) -- . . . . • . • • . . continued on next page Page 2150 April 24th, 1962

MR . CHR ISTIANSON: There is no more sincere form of flattery Sir, than imitation. Many other governments of all political stripes have seen fit to adopt our legislation almost completely and I think that this is probably the highest commendation that can be made for it. He made some remarks about the federal government. He knows of course that under the un employment assistance agreement that we receive 50% sharing of costs with them on all but health costs and child welfare costs and a basic mothers allowance case load that is set out. This year the figure will be something in the order of $4 million.

He has heard probably too of the recent announcment of training and research grants that have been made by the federal gov ernment and which will be increasing over the years until they reach quite a substantial sum; and this is the first effort that has been made in this field by any federal government. Now I agree, it's been long overdue . We have been pressing the federal government for some time for this, but they have, of cours e, had many urgent priorities to contend with and we are very pleased to see this one.

We have already undertaken bursaries and training programs here in Manitoba to up-grade the standard of care and the planning in the field of social welfare; and as I mentioned in my remarks we are already conducting some basic research with the ot her departments in the area to try and implement some of the newer approaches to welfare. I don't know quite what the Honourable Member from Transcona had in mind, the Honourable Leader of the NDP , with his closing remarks . I didn't quite follow him.

He seems to be a little confused as to the regulations governing the exemption from hospital premiums and what constitutes Medicare. First of all I should say that the numbers of people who receive Medicare cards doesn't include the 1850 people who are actually in institutions who are our responsibility. These people have medical care layed on for them so they don't receive Medicare cards for the simple reason that they don't need them. Their medical care is provided for them in their institution.

Now everyone else who receives social allowance, other than those who receive it for only a short term, such as some of our friends up in the Interlake who only get a fuel allowance dur ing the winter for the months of October to May -- everyone else receiving social allowances receives a Medicare card. The hospital premium exemption is based on the Old Age Assistance and disability income ceiling, and this isn't our regulation, it's a regulation of the federal governinent, and everyone who qualifies under that income ceiling is automatically entitled to a hospitalization premium exemption.

Also , anyone who qualifies for social allowances and re ceives a Medicare card, also receives their hospitalization premium exemption. Now it's un fortunate that there is this double standard, if you like -- and I suggest with all respect that if all the other provinces had similar social allowances legislation to ours, that there wouldn't need to be this double standard -- but unfortunately the federal government has got to legislate for all of the provinces and not all the provinces do meet need the way need is met, particularly in the aged group amongst the people of Manitoba.

Now there was considerable -- (Interjection) -- I see I have him thoroughly confused too -- well , we're very good at confusing each other , I guess . In any event the income ceiling is set by the federal regulations, it's the same as the Old Age Assistance regulations , eleven hundred and forty single , and nineteen eighty married, and anyone who qualifies under this in come ceiling gets an MHSP exemption. It's as simple as that. Now with regard to what is available under the Medicare Certificate. MR . PAULLEY: Mr .

Chairman, before we leave that point, I wonder , just to get my confusion clarified, I realize the federal authority comes into the question as to the exemption for hospital premiums. My point is that if they qualify under that exemption of a means test, then the provincial authority should be providing them with a Medicare card. MR . CHR ISTIANSON: Well, Mr. Chairman, that would mean then that we would set up the income qualification that they have under disability for our social allowances Act - MR . PAULLEY: Mr . Chairman, I'm not talking about our social allowances - - MR . CHR ISTIANSON: Mr.

Chairman, - - MR . PAULLEY: My honourable friend is trying to confuse the issue even more . MR . CHR ISTIANSON: No, No, I'm not trying to confuse it, I'm just trying to clarify it, that - - You don't understand, I'm sorry the osmotic pressure from this side of the hall I guess has to increase even more before this concept gets across . Social allowances is based on need and it's entirely possible for someone who does not have a cash income for a married April 24th, 1962 Page 2151

(Mr . Christians on, cont' d.) . . .. couple, who doesn't have a cash income of the amount ·set out by the disability and old age assistance legislation, would not qualify for social allow ances because they wouldn't be in need. Now I know that's difficult to understand , but never theless it's basica lly the fact. MR. PAULL EY: fyir. Chairman, I'm not talking about social allowances at all .

I'm talking about if a person under a means test at the age 65, whether it's federal regulations or not , qualifies for an exemption of hospitalization premiums, then I suggest that because that · person has undergone a means test which establishes presumed inability of being able to pay hospital premiums, then that person should qualify for a Medicare card which is issued by the provincial authoritie s, and that's my whole point . MR. CHRISTIANSON: Mr . Speaker , what I was saying was that if a person needs one , he gets it. It's as simple as that . If he needs one , he gets it.

But these people may , or may not have MMS contract s, they may belong to groups. If they do , they don't need Medicare ca rds because they've already provided for their own medical care . Now he may not agree with that that this is a valid presumption but nevertheless it is true in a great many cases. To go on, the expressed regret, or concern rather over what the person with a Medi care card is entitled to . Well , I have here the Health Ca re Service s.

They're entitled to den tal services, full dental services from the dentist of their choice ; optical services from a doc tor or an optometrist; they're entitled to all essential drugs from the drug store of their choice . We have been receiving the most excellent co-operation with the members of the medica l pro fession -- they are also entit led, of course , under this medical care , in-hospital trea tment as well as treatment from their doctor and they can still go to the out"'."patient department if they so desire .

Now there are some classes of tests that are not covered by the Medicare card and these are performed usually at the out-patient department at the hospitals beca use we are making substantial contributions to these hospitals in order that they carry on these out-patient departments in these teaching hospitals. Now, I should say, too, that we are receiving excellent co-operation from all the vari ous medica l groups under this plan , particularly from the doctors.

Pending the receipt by the government of the Teaching Commission Brief, the brief that was set up to try and determine what impact the application of Medicare to the indigent groups in society would have, the doc tors agreed to provide in-hospital care, free, and they have been doing this since the inception of Medica re , which is going on two years now. So we are very indebte d to them for their won derful co-opera tion in this. The Honourable Member from Trans cona also talked about unemployment and I couldn't agree with him more that this is a very serious problem .

However, I think that the solution to the problem of unemployment and the solution to the problem of people who lack skills to act ively compete in our evermore competitive society is one that will not be easily solved and the meeting of the chronic or the immediate unemployment need is something that requires per haps the active involvement of the loca l communitie s and I think that the federal government through their winter works projects and other plans of that nature, their training programs of one type and another, have gone a long way towards alleviating the impact on· the communities.

The Honourable Member from St. John's quoted some figures -- he usually quotes a lot of figures , and makes them sound very convinci ng . He said that there was something like 3, OOO people in Winnipeg who would become a provincial responsibility . Now, I think if we examine that figure we will find that they are in large measure people who have lost municipal residence qualification and it wouldn't matter if we proclaimed all the rest of the Social Allow ance s Act these people would still not, under our accepted definition of unemployability , not qualify directly for social allowance s.

Now I would like to point out to him and all the other members of the House that where people have no legal municipal residence , the provincial government reimburses in full -- re imburses in full the municipality for expenses made on behalf of those people . Then, of course over and beyond that we have the other qualification where we pay 40% of all the relief costs incurre d by the municipality up to 1 mill and over 1 mill expenditure by that municipality we pay 80% of all relief costs.

They can make a great deal of complaint about the sections that haven't been proclaimed but we have taken the large st share of the load from the municipalities, particularly in the age? field and in the child welfare field. This is a fact, Mr . Chairman, Page 2152 April 24th, 1962

(Mr. Christianson, cont' d.) • . . . and no amount of hollering will change that fact. We are just as concerned as they that these other sections have not yet been proclaimed; we would like to proclaim them . He made some remarks about people having to wait three to six months before they can be enrolled. Well, I can just say, Sir , that that allegation is not based on fact.

I think that there have been cases of people waiting two months but, and it is for pre cisely this reason I think that we couldn 't consider proclaiming anymore sections until we are adequately able to take care of the sections we presently have proclaimed .. They were asking about more information as to who can get help •. Well, Mr. Chairman, anyone who needs it can get help under the Social Allowances Act.

The municipalities -- and if they are non-resident in municipalitie s, they are , of c� urse , completely the responsibility of the provincial government -- completely. · And also with regard to Indians, we have not yet proclaimed the se ction of the act which deals with treaty Indians . However, off-treaty Indians are accorded full rights and privileges that anyone else receives and all Metis who are non-treaty and who µi.ostly reside in unorgan ized territory are the full responsibility of the provincial government --. the full responsibility of the provincial government.

In this regard we are very hopeful, and.on the basis of perfor mance to date , we are entitled to be even more than hopeful, we know that our program com munity development is going to make a tremendous impact on these people who have been neglecte d.for so many years . With regard to the Honourable Member from Inkster I certainly don't want to get into an argument with him on the relationship between a needs test and a means test. I've heard him make this plea before. I know that he has been making it for a long time; but I think , Sir , that you have to. examine the circumstances as they are.

One must asce rtain the facts of a person's background; the facts of their financial capabilitie s before one can enroll them on a social allowances program , or start making cash payments to these people from the public treasury. I don't think anyone would suggest that this shouldn't be done; and I agree that there seemed to be a lot of questions on the form. But, Mr. Chairman, at what other time would you get the answer to these questions if you didn't get it at the time they were being enrolled? And these people can get help in answering these questions from the social worker.

This concept of treating need on an individual basis I think does something more. It guarantees the pride and the inte grity of the individual who is applying for nee d. In many cases these people have.never had an opportunity to provide for their old age; in many cases they have had, and through often no fault of their own they have come to be in need; and it is only through the kind attention, if you like , of the social workers that the pride and the individuality of the person can be maintained; and it is only through this way that there can be any hope of rehabili tating people who come to require need.

And I think this is perhaps the important thing because going on welfare shouldn't be a career. I think the Welfare Department would be falling down on its duty if it didn't make every effort to rehabilitate people back into society; to rehabilitate them into becoming productive members of the society again. And I can assure you, Sir, that that is what we are endeavouring to do. · The Honourable Member from St. John's, too, quoted some statistics from 1957 . Well, Mr. Chairman, those are ancient history now.

I suggest that the welfare expenditures in Can ada have increased substantially since that day, but even on the basis of those figures I would question the veracity of the conclusion that he draws because 8% of what and 15% of what ? There again the percentage as pointed out by the Minister of Public Works last night can be very misleading. The Honourable Member from Gladstone asked a question about what sections were not yet proclaimed.

Section ill, I believe it is, fourth and fifth lines , the words "including an Indian as defined in the Indian Act . 11 But in this regard I should draw to the attention of the members again the fact that an agreement has been signed between the Children's Aid Society of western Manitoba and the Department of Indian Affairs covering seven reserves in the wes - term part of the province , whereby all the child welfare services available to any child in that area will be available to the Indian children on those reserves, and we hope that this will be extended .to other parts of the province at a very early date . The other sections , clauses (b) , (

c) and (

d) of subsection I of

Section V. These cases that these se ctions comprise are the mothers deserted for over one year; husband in jail for April 24th, 1962 Page 2153

(Mr . Christian son, cont'd .) • • . • more than one year; unmarried mothers with two or · inore children; unemployed adults without children under 65 years of age. Those are the people that are affected by that. All the others in need have been taken care of by the Social Allowances Act. MR. ORLIKOW: Mr. Chairman, I wonder where the Minister was last year if he says that he thinks today that we gave him a rough time? I must admit Mr .

Chairman that the neces sity of sitting in the industrial Relations Committee, for one , didn't permit me the time to do the detailed study which I have done in other years of his department; at the same time, I thought that I was being pretty mild on the Ministe r. He's a new Minister and I thought I was being pretty easy going, and for him to complain that we are hollering, I think he hasn't heard hollering yet. Now surely Mr . Chairman, the Minister is ri ght when he says that when I quote per centages, percentages of what?

Of course that's important, and of course 8. 5% of the national income of Canada devoted to social security is a lot more than 50% of let's say the national in come of a country iike Ghana. But then certainly the people of Canada are much more able to afford to provide for the needs of the people of Canada than are the people of a country like Ghana; and I want t6 suggest that 8. 5% of the national income of Canada is not so much, if compared to , say 20% of the national income of a country like West Germany. Now, when we talk about what hasn't been done , Mr.

Chairman, I want to empliasize again that what is im portant is not only what we think should be done , but what has not been done are the things - and I tried to detail them, but if the Minister wants I cah come back after supper and go into some considerable detail. When we talk about the things that haven't been done are the things which this government proposed to do , not what I propose to do . I don't hold you responsible for the things which I think should be done; I only hold you responsible for the things which you said should be done .

Now, the Minister reversed himself -- I don't know whether it was inadvertent or neatly -- in the short reply he gave a few minutes ago. He started off by say ing the 3, 000 people are largely people who are non-resident. Well first of all, Mr. Chairman, he' s»vrong in fact, because the 3, OOO people are not non-resident ; the 3, OOO people are in cluded in the very categories which the Minister told the Honourable Member from Gladstone are not covered; and I just want to mention two very briefly so as members will know what we're talking about.

The Act says that mothers who are deserted ;_/ their husbands will be en titled to assistance for themselves and their children after -- and I'm speaking from memory -- after one year. That's in the Act, I didn 't write the Act; the former Minister of Health and Public Welfare wrote the Act, I presume on the advice of the very pompetent staff we've heard about. So what happens ? -- that provision of the Act has not been proclaimed. And what is the situation today? A mother who has been deserted by her husband has to wait four years.

Now I hold no brief for the breakup of families, but this is a fact we have to face up to , that have a large number of cases where families breakup and the attempts of provincial govern ments, not ju st this government, but of all provincial governments to try to get assistance , financial aid from the deserting father has been very, very unsuccessf ul . I hold no brief for the deserting father, but this is the fact. This provision of the Act has not been proclaimed, and I understand -- and again I'm speaking from memory, Mr.

Chairman, but I'll certainly check it during the supper hour -- I understand that deserted mothers have to wait four years , four years in the Province of Manitoba; and I'm told that this is one of the worst, if not the worst, one of the worst provinces in this respect in the Dominion of Canada . So if the Minis ter says that other provinces, other jurisdictions, are copying our Act , I hope all their copy ing is our Act· and not our practices because some of our practices are way off. Now let's take another example, and I'm not going to go into detail at the present time.

People get in trouble and people go to jail, and I'm not going to start a debate about that again, but what happens to the family while the fathers are in jail? Under the provisions of the Social Allowances Act -- which have not yet been proclaimed -- the province pays the cost of assist ance . This is not being done at the present time. I wouldn't want there should be any miscon ception, of course , those people are entitled to assistance from the municipality; but that is not the same as the Social Allowances Act that certainly is not in the spirit of the Social Allowances Act.

And while we'r� on the subject, Mr. Chairman, I want to raise a case which the Page 2154 April 24th, 1962

(Mr . Orlikow, cont'd .) ..•. Minister will know about because it was brought to his attention by the John Howard Society, and I'm revealing no confidence because I think it was reported in the pres s. There have been several cases, two that I think -- I'm speaking from memory - where Manitoba citizens are now either in jail or in penitentary. The parole officers , and I presume that these are people who are the most qualified to judge whether a person is ready to 9ome out of the institution and ready t9 play a

part in normal society, the parole officers have recommended that these people be released. But it's going to take some time, particularly in a period of high unemployment like we have today , and certainly those people cannot be blamed for this condition, it's going to take some time before they are able to find a job.

Now, the municipality from which they come have been asked whether they will approve the giving of assistance to the se people until they can find a job , and the municipaiities in both cases have refused to recommend sa me, and since we still have that antiquated one year residence rule - which I want to suggest to the Minister has long outlived any usefulness which it may have had -- since we still have that one year residence rule, ·as far as I know those people are not' en titled to assistance; and since there's no guarantee that they will be able to look after themselves when they get out, it has :riot been possible to complete their parole.

So I suggest that there is a very serious fault. Mr . Chairman, I want to close by giving just one illustration -- I'm sorry if the Member from Brokenhead isn't in his seat because be brought this to my attention -- one illustration of the kind of case which is not being handled and which demonstrates I think very graphically what a patchless system we have . A man now living in the Burrows constituency Mr . Chairman, was referred to me by the Honourable Member from Brokenhead because he lived formerly in that constituency .

Now this man is .a railway worker ; I presume his pay is somewhere in the neigh bourhood of about $325 .0 0 to $350 .0 0 a month. The man has seven children, the oldest of whom is 13 and I think the youngest just over a year . In November of 196 1, he suffered a tragedy , his wife died. Now this man was left with seven children to look after. He appealed to the Family Bureau for assistance , for help in getting a housekeeper, and the Family Bureau did get him a housekeeper temporarily.

But naturally finding a housekeeper prepared to look after a family with seven children is not the easiest matter and so the housekeeper left; and as of a couple of weeks ago at least, the man had his mother looking after the 'family temporarily; but his mother cannot stay . He has been in communication with the Family Bureau, who at that time had not been able to find him a housekeeper . He callie to the Member from Brokenhead because he had the feeling that the Family Bureau was going to break up the family and put the children into foster homes. I took it up with the Family Bureau, Mr.

Chairman, I took it up with the supervisor -- and I'll be glad to tell the Minister who the supervisor is "-- I have no complaint with the Family Bureau ; I think that they were doing and are doing everything possi ble; but the supervisor pointed out several things which I think ought to interest the members of this Committee.

First of all, she pointed out that the Family Bureau has olily a very small sum of money for housekeeping services , and because this amount of money is small -- and the money comes incidentally, not from the Province of Manitoba, not from the Department of Public Welfare, it comes from the Community Chest, it's charity money; and members can think what they like about charity money, I don't like it in this field -- but because it's small this money it has been decided, and I think rightly under the circumstances by the Family Bureau , that this shall be for emergency needs olily• Now obviously this man doesn't need emergency need; obviously this man needs assi stance for some six, eight or ten years.

Now what's the alternative, Mr. Chairman, to giving this man a subsidy of let's say $50 .00 or $7 5. 00 a month to help him pay for the housekeeper. The alternative is that he won't be able to look after his family himself. First of all you have the tremendous tragedy in the breaking up of a family, but from a financial point of view you have the possibility, the distinct possiblity that those seven children will have to be put into foster homes. Now the Minister knows better than I do what the exact cost of keeping a child in a foster home is; I think it's somewhere in the neighbourhood of $2 .2 0 a day.

So be cause we haven't provided in the Social Allowances Act for the payment of let's say $50 . 00 or $75 . 00 a month for assistance in the field of housekeeping services , we may in this one case be faced by the payment of $15 . 00 a day , or roughly $16 . 00 a day , for foster home care plus a substantial part of the cost of a social worker who would have to supervise them. I want to tell April 24th, 1962 Page 2155

(Mr. Orkilow, cont'd. ) . • the Minister the comment that somebody made to me -- I won't say who -- somebody made the comment to me : "Isn't it unfortunate that the wrong per, son died. If only the father had died there would be no problem at all ; the mothe r would be en titled to the Mothers Allowance and there would be no problem at all. " Isn't that a sad com mentary, Mr. Chairman, on the kind of program we have? I'm not saying that it's a bad pro gram; I'm not saying Mr. Chairman, that it isn't a better program than we've had.in other years ; but isn't it a sad commentary Mr .

Chairman, on the kind of patchwork services that we provide for the people of this province ? MR . GRAY: Mr . Chairman, I wish to thank very much the Mi nister of Welfare, in re plying to my -- not complaint -- but calling his attention to certain things which he should do. Speaking for myself , I think there's no criticism and no condemnation of the Minister of Wel fare and the government on its pro gram.

Our duty here is to point out how it can be improved, and if the Minister will take everything into consideration and not sidetrack it and take in every orie that talke d about it and pointed out the shortage or the things that sbi>uld be ddrie and have not been done, I think he should accept it with grace. He's a new :ininiSter; we are telli ng him of the problem s; per haps he knows about it; we're reminding him of the problem that does exist. And the problem is not of the calibre of a political road.

A road can be built or cannot be built, that's a separate matte r entirely , and we had quite a discuss ion about it yesterday. What we are suggesting to him is, how to help avoid misery and hardship and tragedy. All I would ask him to do is not justify it, because he cannot justify it; but take it into consideration , make a note of it, and in the days to come please try a remedy. MR , SHOEMAKER : Mr . Chairman, I take it from the answer that I received from the Honourable Minister that no extension has been made , or no further sections of the Act has been proclaimed since February 19th, 1960.

I refer to an information

section bulletin , dated Febru ary 19th, 1960 and I just want to quote one sentence . It says : "the first phase of the new pro gram" -- and they're referring to the Social Allowances program -- i•the first phase of the new program is aimed at assi sting those who need it most, that is old age pensioners whose only me ans of Support is old: age security of $55 . 00 per month; the aged and infirm heeding care in nursing homes and institutions and children who are wards of Chiidreris' Aid Society and the Director of Public Welfare", and I guess there has been no change since that bulletin was issued.

And yet Mr . dhairinati, :i: would refer at the mo:ineiit to an Order for Return, Nd. 18 , which I received the other day from the Honourable Minister of Welfare, question No . 3. 1 asked the question, number of persons enrolled for social allowance who are not in receipt of a federal pension of any kind, oid age assis tance; old age security , .disability or blind persons , arid the answer given is 12, 235.

So i•m at a loss to know what this figure includes; because if they're not in receipt -- I uriderstdod that you more or less had to be in receipt of a pension of some kind :ln order to qualify for social allowance -- but yet here are 12, 235 people who ate receiving social allowance who are not in receipt of a pension. I have submitted several applications for people ID. my constituency who had not yet reached the age of 65, could not qualify for old age ass istance and they were turned down.

Now to point up some of the hardships and some of the gaps that are stiil left in the program , I want to refer to one case in partichlar -- a case at Mountain Road, Manitoba, where the wife -- weli the wife was receiving a cash social allowance of $45 .2 5 to attend to the care of her husband who was then living and in receipt of an old age . security pension of $55 . 00 ; so in effect there was $100 . 25 a month coming into the household. Now about the first of the year this fellow died and there was no money at all coming into the household then.

The widow is oniy 63 years of age , so I wrote i nto the Department of Welfare, asked them to have their Social Worker call and see the widow, and they -- I have the lette r here before me -- "she does not qualify for any assis tance of any kind." That is she's one of these misfits . Sh e's under 65, therefore she has no income. at all,

whereas she did have $1 00.2 5 a month coming in. They were doing very nicely on that . Now there's no income at all . The only way that she can qualify is to go to the muni cipal council and have her needs met at that source. And while I'm on that particular slibject, Mr. Chairman, I think I understood the Minister to say that -- two things in regard to munici pal assi stance -- that if their residence had not been established in the municipality -- and I know there must be a great number of those in the City of Winnipeg where it is most difficult to establish their resid�nce, then the province would pick up the cheque as regards the Page 2156 April 24th, 1962

(Mr. Shoemaker, cont'd. ) • • assi stance that was given to them by the municipality. Does that apply in rural Manitoba as well ? And is there any quarrel with the municipal men as to residence ? Just yesterday a municipal man asked me what would happen in a particular case where a young woman 28 years of age had multiple sclerosis -- she had not applied for total disability pension here -- I don't know why she hadn't, but she has since moved to British Columbia and is apparently making application there, but the municipal man was concerned by reason of the fact that she had not res.ided 12 months in B.

C • , that it might become a charge on that municipality from which she came, and I would like an answer to that one as well . I believe it is a fact that the social allowances program has been broadened some what from the day it was first introduced, because I understand that presently it is pos sible for the parents to receive a cash allowance for looking after their mother or father or anyone else who happens to be residing with them -- that is it is no longer necessary that they be placed in an institution in order to receive social allowance . And I think that is a wonderful thing, for two reasons .

It is a wonderful thing that they are provided for in their own home , and it is a sav ing to the government -- a great saving to the government. That is, it is much cheaper to keep them at home than it is in most of the institutions . I wonder Mr.

Chairman -- I know that all statements that appear in papers are not correct; we've long since learned that -- but I wonder how much truth there is in this one from the Winnipeg Free Press, Thursday, March Sth, and it's headed: "Forty-five hundred lose cash aid with pension rise" and they quote the Honourable Minister all the way down here as if the press had had an interview with him and confirmed these figures.

I would like an answer to that because if that is a fact and if the cash allowance averaged $10 . 00 a month, then it would seem to me that the province would now be saving $45, OOO a month by reason of the fact that there was a pension increase . I have before me copies -- well one original and: two copies -- of letters that went out to one individual -- that is the whole three letters went to one individual -- one dated. February 12th, 1962 , in which the Department of Welfare advise him that "your application", I'm quoting now: "Your application for social allowance has been rated eligible.

You have been enrolled for a cash allowance of $8 . 00 a month effective March lst, 196 2." Well be was delighted to receive that and in due course he did receive his Medicare card -- that was February 12th, 1962, Mr. Chairman.

February 26th, two weeks later to the day, he received a letter, I suppose , with his old age pension cheque, and it went out to everyone I believe, from the Department of Welfare, ad vising them, be or she , and I'm quoting: "As you know it has been decided to increase from $55 . 00 to $65 . 00 per month, the maximum amount payable under the Old Age Assistance Act, the Blind Persons Allowances Act and so on", and he was glad to receive that one. Then on March 9th, he received this one: "We have been advised that your old age assistance has been increased by $10 . 00 a month. " Well Mr .

Chairman, they should know because they wrote the letter advising him , but this is what they say: "We have been advised that your old age assistance has been increased by $10 . 00 a month effective February lst, 1962 . Our regul ations stipulate that this increase must be taken into consideration in computing the amount of social allowance for which you are eligible.

Since the amount of your allowance from this de partment is less than your pension increase we must advise you that your social allowance has been cancelled after March 3l st , 1962 ." So that be did receive, I suppose, one $8 . 00 cheque, because the first letter said that he would be eligible March lst; the last letter says that it will be cancelled March 31 st. Well my question is how many of those letters went out? Were there 4, 500 of them in accordance with the

article in this paper, or were there more than that? Now Mr. Chairman, I would like too, to -- I think the Honourable Member for St. John's asked a question on elderly persons' housing -- has there been a change ,in the grant structure under the Elderly Persons' Housing Act ? Now I read an

article in the paper recently, in the Neepawa Press, that suggested that very shortly there would be an improved grant formula as regards elderly housing, and I wonder if the Honourable Minister could bring us up-to-date on that one ? MR. CHR ISTIANSON: I didn't mean to stir up the Honourable Member from St. John' s. I didn't mean to infer that he had been very rough in his comments. In fact, quite the contrary, I thought he was being extremely mild and gentle for himself; and I certainly didn't realize that I had been shouting.

I can assure you, Sir, that usually when I shout I speak much more firmly than I was speaking a little while ago . I really don't know though what purpose though he intends April 24th, 1962 Page 2157

(Mr . Christianson, cont' d.) .••• in br inging up figures here that were drawn up in 19 57 , be ·c ause as I pointed out th er e's been a tremendous change since then. With re gard to the statement he made about the City of Winnipeg. I don't know who he's been -- at least I presume it was the City of Winnipeg beca use this is the only municipal entity in Manitoba of sufficient size to have that kind of a case load.

I don't know who he 's been talk ing to because I have talked to the people over there as well and I have in my hand here a graph that indicate s the number of cases on long-term assistance with the City. Now the particular types of cases he is referring to would , of cour se , be people who are on long-term assistan ce , and the number that have been in recei pt for longe r than 12 months in the unemployable cate gory, which would be the mothers that he is referring to , is less than 25, acco rding to this graph.

Now that's the number of cases ; there could be quite a number of children and it could be a considerably much greater number of people than that . So I think with all respect, Sir , that the figure of 3, OOO must include some of the non-res idents in the City of Winnipe g because Winnipeg is becoming a reservoir and a magnet that is attracting a lot of the more nomadic type of people to the city and there they do become, where they can't get employment, they , of course , become responsibilities of the Welfare Department -- and as I pointed out earlier we pick up the cost in full .

Now I must admit in the particular cases where the Act has not been proclaimed the situation is still the way it was before . This is quite true , and as I said at the beginning, no body regrets it more than we do . We must, of cour se , have regard to the whole picture , and in that respect, too , I want to assure the Honourable Member from Inkster that we do appre ci ate his criticisms and I didn't intend to be or mean to be short with him.

I know that he 's most sincere , but I want to assure him that we are too , and that we are doing our best under the circumstan ces with regard to all the circumstances to meet the needs of the people of the Province of Manitob a who require assistance from the state. I think that the Honourable Member from Gladstone raised the case of a person, and be cause she is under the age of 65 and she suff ers from no physical dis ability she is classed as an employable adult and therefore the municipality would give her assistance as they would to any unemployed adult person.

I can assure him that there 's no double set of standards with regard to qualifi cations for resid ents. It applies equally throughout the Province of Manitoba, Winnipeg and all the municipali ties. Now in the case of the person with multiple sclerosis to which he referred, if this per son -- it's my understanding if the person needs the care of another person that they are en titled to provincial government assistance . If, however, they don't require the care of anothe r person they are again classed as an employable and become municipal responsibilit ie s.

We thre shed the straw pretty thoroughly I thought about the cash allowances , the change in the pension plan, at previous sessions . I said at the time that the average allowance was $20 .6 5 for all the people on social allowances -- this include d a great many people who are getting small amounts of cash as the person referred to in the letters that the honourable mem ber read, and I can say I have no comment on those letters. I think they speak for themselves quite clearly. The person obviously made application for soci al allowance before the increase in pension.

When the increase in pension was announce d her income had increased; she was granted $8 . 00 before the increase in pension; her increase in pension was $10. 00 , so under the regulations there was no recourse but to cancel the $8 . 00 incr ease . But that person would still be left with her Medicare card. So for going through the exercise of applying for social assistance she comes out $2 . 00 a month better on the increase in pension but she still retains her Medicare card.

But because the average is $20 . 65 and because we are paying for a lot of people in institutions where the average cost is very high -- something in the order of $1 00 .0 0 a month -- there are a great many people who are getting small amounts of cash. Now I think that the figure he quoted from the newspaper report -- and I don't remember the interview - although I presume that there was one -- was an estimate , and I'm sorry I don't have the actual figu re . But it would seem to be fairly reasonable . Now he was questioning the figure given of $12 , 235 . 00.

Well the Soci al Allowances Act covers all people in unorganized territories and they are include d in that category, that $12 , 235 -- the figure is arrived at by deducting from the total enrol lments in question 1, the number of the aged and inf irm, which is 9, 256 less an estimated 500 for infirm -- these are people under Page 2158 April 24th, 1962

(Mr . Christianson , cont' d.) . • • • the age of 65 who are receiving social allowances because they do require the care of another person -- leaving a figure of 8, 7 56 . Now that again is an estimate , and while we are sure it's fairly accurate , we wouldn't want to be held to the last deCimal point. The figur e then comes out at 12, 235 . I think what the honourable member is not realizing is that anyone in an unorganiz ed territory, he may be an employable, male , adult, or an employable person, would come under the Social Allowances Act, and also non-re sidents of municipalities who are unemployed.

Single transient males in Winnipeg for instance receive social allowanc es. So I think that he is not aware that, and perhaps we are guilty of misleading him by including all these into the social allowa nces categories, but really this is the only place in which they can be placed. .,

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-5-77
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	26th 5th hansardpdf 77.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	f30506f17bfa96ed2876aab3e5882ab6b551e9d2

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