Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 56 (28th Legislature, 1st Session)

28-1-56

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Thursday, February 23,1967 Opening Prayer by Mr. Sp eaker. MR . SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions Reading and Recehing Petitions Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees Notices of Motion Introduction of Bills 1299 MR. EDWARD I. DOW (Turtle Mountain) introduced Bill No. 37,

an Act to validate By-law No. 770 of the Town of Deloraine. MR . JAMES COWAN,Q.C.(Winnipeg Centre) introduced Bill No. 60,

an Act for the Relief of.the Town of Tuxedo, and Bill No. 55,

an Act to validate By-law No. 371 of the Village of Teulon and By-law No. 2233 of the Rural Municipality of Rockwood. MR . SPEAKER: Before the Orders of the Day, I would like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery where this year's Easter Seal "Timmy" is seated. He is Donald Akerley who is 12 years old and lives at Camp Shilo in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. With him in the gallery are his parents, Sergeant and Mrs. Akerley, the Ordinance Base of Shilo, and Mr. Frank Kovitz, the Manitoba Chairman of the 1967 Easter Seal Campaign.

"As honourable members know, the campaign begins February 26th and ends on Easter Sunday, March 26th. This year's Timmy is one of a family of eight children and is a popular young lad amongst his fellow students at the Greenwood School at the Shilo Base. While his sports activities are of necessity restricted, he's an avid sports fan and is a member of the Gun Club of his community center. A little over two years ago Donald was afflicted with perosis disease, a disorder of the hip structure.

At first he relied on crutches for h is mobility and later a full length brace was applied to make it possible for him to move about freely. Now we are pleased to learn that Donald no longer requires the brace and is almost completely recovered from this unusual disease. We are pleased to have you here today Donald. Your health gives well deserved public recognition to the Society fo.r Crippled Children and Adults of Manitoba for its effective work to the handicapped in, the prov ince. May God bless you Donald.

I should also like to take a further moment and direct the attention of the honourable �rembers to the gallery where we have 10 students of Grade 10 standing from the Grant Park School. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. We also have with us today 45 students of Grade 11 standing from the Windsor Park Collegiate. These students are 'Under the direction of Mr. Szakacs. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Leader of the New Democratic Party.

On behalf of all the honourable members in the Legislative Assembly I welcome you all here today. MR . SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. GILDAS MOLGAT (Leader of the Opposition)(Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I'd like to ask a question of the First Minister. I notice a newspaper story yesterday headed 'Drastic Increase in Rent Foreseen". Apparently the Premier has had dis cussions with groups regarding the taxation proposed under the White Paper on apartment blocks.

This indicates that there is no intention on the part of the government to make any changes. I wondered if that is the correct story? HON. DUFF ROBLIN (Premier)(Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, I've no doubt we'll have a full discussion of the principle of exemptions from real estate taxation as envisaged in the govern ment's school plan at the time the Bilf'is brought in. MR . RUSSELL PAULLEY(Leader of the New Democratic Party)(Radisson): A subsequent question, Mr. Speaker. Can the First Minister indicate when that bill may be brought in? MR . ROBLIN: I hope it will be brought in shortly after our return. MR .

BEN HANUSCHAK (Burro*s): Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Honourable the Attorney-General. I notice that British Columbia, Alberta and Saskatchewan have enacted legislation outlawing trading stamps and Ontario is contemplating to do likewise. Is the Honourable Minister of this province considering introducing similar legislation? HON. STERLING R. LYON,Q.C.(Attorney-General)(Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, this is a matter upon which some considerable thought would have to be given. There is a constitutional problem involved of course but the matter will be receiving consideration.

1300 February 23, 1967 MR. JACOB M. FROESE (Rhineland): Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Agriculture I will direct my question to the House Leader. When can we expect a report from the Horse Racing Commis sion? MR. LYON: We'll have to take that as notice, Mr . Speaker and pass it along to the Minister. MR. RUSSELL DOERN (Elmwood): Mr . Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable the Attorney-General.

Only this morning I heard by the teen-age grapevine that there''s an increasing amount of marijuana. being used in the city amongst certain segments of the teen-age population and in particular in reference to some of these bands which are coming in from out of town. I'd like to know if the Attorney-General has any information in this re gard as to increasing numbers of parties or arrests. MR. LYON: No, Mr. Speaker . MR. DOERN: A supplementary question. Would you give us a report on this in terms of the number of arrests or what the teen-age situation is? MR. LYON: I can make inquiries, Mr .

Speaker, and when my estimates are before the House give what information if any there is on the subject. MR. NELSON SHOEMAKER(Gladstone ): Mr . Speaker, before the Orders of the Day are called I would like to direct a question to my honourable friend the Attorney-General . Con sidering the shar p increase in juvenile crime disclosed by Juvenile Court officials, would the Attorney-General advise how many children picked up by the police for sniffing glue, assault, wilful damage, drinking, arson and other crimes are examined by child guidance officials or psychiatric specialists. MR.

LYON: If my honourable friend would like to make that question the subject for an Order for Return, we would be happy to try to provide the information for him . MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr . Chairman, a subsequent question. Could he - as he indicated on the last question that was put to him - could he give us this information when we come to his estimates rather than put it in for an Order for Return? MR. LYON: Yes, we'll attempt to have information available on that topic. MR. DOERN: Mr . Chairman, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Education.

It was announced yesterday in a paper that the Winnipeg School Board is going to try to arrange with the U. of M. a summer school course in 1968 to train nursery class teachers . Does he have any comment on this or is his department going to get involved in this? HON . GEORGE JOHNSON (Minister of Education)(Gimli): I'll look into the matter, Mr . Speaker. I know not of what he - anything about this . I '11 have to look into it. MR. JOHN P. TANCHAK (Emerson): Mr . Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Education.

The Honourable the First Minister just made a statement that the bill embodying the proposals of the Foundation Program will not be before us 'til after the rece ss. Now I wonder why the delay. Could the Minister tell us what .•..••. MR. JOHNSON: Mr. Speaker, it's quite a chore getting in the detail

definitions in the Bill . It's being worked at steadily at this time. · HON. THELMA FORBES (Minister of Urban Development and Municipal Affairs)(Cypress): Mr. Speaker, in reply to a ••••• MR. TANCHAK: Doesn 't the Minister realize that the delay may have an adverse effect on the referendum on March the lOth because the people are asking questions: powers of Finance Board and so on. I've had those questions. we should have the Bill before we go out next week. MR. JOHNSON: The intent and principle of the Bill is incorporated in the White Paper, Mr . Speaker. MRS, FORBES: Mr .

Speaker, in reply to the question from the Honourable Member for Carillon yesterday, we have had under consideration the question of municipalities finalizing their municipal budget, apart from the school portion, by April 15th. I'd like to draw your attention to

Section 1091 of The Municipal Act which was amended at the 1964 Session of the Legislature, "to permit any municipality to accept payment of taxes by installment." And I'd like you to look at

Section 1093 of The Municipal Act likewise amended in 1964, "to permit · municipalities to send out more than one statement and demand for taxes." In fact the.present provisions of the Act will permit council to finalize its municipal portion of the budget and strike its municipal mill rate and mail a statement and demand for taxes to each taxpayer for the municipal tax in proper time . And because of the impending

February 23., 1,967, 130 1 (MRS. F.ORBE S cont 'd); ..•. school vote this year I would strongly urge municipalities to avail themselves of these provisions in 1967 and send out separate tax notices. this year.

Section 1186 .of the Municipal Act: "Any municipality.that does not wish to send out separate tax bills may apply to the Minister under the provisions of this

section 1186 to validate the lateness of its budget and also the lateness of passing its rating by-laws and mailing of tax statements." I trust this will be .of some assistance tQ the Honourable Member for Carillon. MR. ALBERT VIELFAURE (La Verendrye): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the First Minister, I think. When can we expect the bill on the use of purple gas in farm trucks? MR. ROBLIN: My colleague, the Provincial Treasurer, will be bringing down that Bill before long. It's under course of preparation now. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Mr.

Speaker, I'm not tQo certain as to who I should direct my question to so I will adress it to the Honourable the First Minister. Is it the intention of the government this year to amend legislation to allow for increased num ber of days for the horse racing at Assiniboia Downs. MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, if it is the intention of the government the House will be notified in due course. MR. LAURENT DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Education. He seemed to indicate that all that is needed is the question of principle before this referendum.

I'd like to ask the Minister why he is organ izing all these meetings if it's not to be able to answer some of the questions of the people before they have a chance to vote with a little bit of intelligence? Why these meetings if you 're just voting on the principle and if half the answers are not available? MR. JOHNSON: ...• •. that will come before us, in The Public School Act merely puts into legislation the principles and the detail - into more detail as outlined in the White Paper. We would hopefully have had the entire bill before us at this time but we ran into drafting difficulties,

definitions and so on and are pressing on with all possible haste. I would hope that despite this the. matter in broad outline is sufficiently clear to indicate to our people the nature of this legislation. After the legislation comes down then of course regulatioos are promulgated along the lines and specifically set out in the Foundation Program. MR . DESJARDINS: Doesn't the Honourable Minister feel that it is important enough for some people to know and to be able to ask and find out how much this is going to cost thfim? ' The Minister says unfortunately this has been delayed.

I think that we should wait before we have this referendum. This is going to be a joke. MR. JOHNSON� The Honourable Member passed $61.5 million in my estimates this year as the provincial estimate of the 65 percent which will be spelled out in the Act. I'm very heartened by the Honourable Member for St. Boniface's interest in the referendum at this time. He begged off the last time he stood up. MR . DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to set my honourable friend's mind at ease.

I'm not that interested but I'm interested in the people that have these apartment blocks and so on and I think that they should be given the proper information. · MR . LYON: On a point of order. If my hon.ourable friend has a question to ask, I think he's entitled to ask it. He is not entitled to make a statement on Orders of the Day. MR . DESJARDINS: This is .... more than a question. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition did you wish to take the floor? MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address a question- I think it's the Provincial Secretary.

Is it his intention to bring in at this session legislation regarding the orderly pay ments of debts? HON. STEWART E. McLEAN, Q.C.(Provincial Secretary)(Dauphin): The Iiiatter is in the hands of the Attorney-General, Mr. Speaker. MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, on that matter the legislation with respect to orderly payment of debts is federal in nature and what is required, so I'm advised by the officials in the de partment, is federal regulations- and here I'm getting onto territory where I'm going by re collection only - federal regulations which are being worked on at the present time by the federal department and as I understand it liaison is taking place with our departmental people. We're anxious to get it in as soon as we can. MR. MOLGAT: Mr.

Speaker, the reason for my question being addressed to the Provincial Secretary, and now if I may address it to the Attorney-General, is that in the White Paper it is indicated that there must be enabling legislation by Manitoba. This I

1302 February 23, 1967 (MR. MOLGAT cont'd) ...•. understand was the statement made by the Minister at that time and so my question is,are we in fact going to pass enabling legislation? MR. LYON: If it's necessary it will be brought before us. I'm not aware of it's necessity. MR. DOW: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs in regards to the answer that she gave the Honourable Member for Carillon. Is this a premise that eventually school divisions will be collecting their own taxes and sending out their own bills? MRS. FORBES: No. MR .

HANUSCHAK: Mr. Speaker, is the Registrar-General of the House of Commons incorrect then in stating that he had, or that the provinces have received a copy of the regula tions governing the application of this legislation with respect to orderly payments of debts? MR . LYON: I don't have any idea, Mr. Speaker. I'll have to take the question as notice. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: Second reading, Bill No. 17. The Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. HON. GURNEY EVANS (Minister of Mines and NaturaLResources)(Fort Rouge): May I have leave to allow this item to stand? · MR.

SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Minister have leave to let this matter stand? I heard no response. (Agreed) The second reading of Bill No. 32. The Honourable Meinber for Rhineland. MR . FROESE: Mr. Speaker, in perusing the bill, of which I had a chance, I find that I'm not opposed in principle to the bill. However, certain questions arise out of it which prompt me to ask some questions of the Minister sponsorfug it. Seeing that we are accommo dating the ,City of Portage la Prairie, in trying to get out from under, will this be the case when we have other cases arise?

I am leery about this because I know of other areas that have lagoon systems and that have the problem of seepage as well. In my own area there's a lagoon which has seepage and the adjacent land to it is gradually being destroyed of producing any crops and we can see that we will have further cases of this type come forward. I would not be surprised in the least bit about this taking place. Then in connection with· the engineers that inspect these areas before a lagoon is in stituted, what are the requirements and what authorization does the department have in author izing these lagoons to be constructed?

What control do they exercise over the various towns and cities wl:ro put in such a system and seeing that the government is bringing this bill for ward do they feel committed in any way on this point so that they're assisting this particular city? Then, too, we know that the half-section will be purchased first by the province and then re-sold to the city itself. Are there any more people who might come forward in that general area who have the same problem?

The City of Portage la Prairie might have some further cases coming on: as a result of having this one taken to court and the party having the damage being able to win his point. · So these are some of the points that I think we should be told about because they will have a bearing on what we are doing now and certafuly I feel that once we set a precedent of this type that we should follow suit when other cases come along. MR . SHOEMAKER: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to make a couple of comments on this ques tion that is before the House.

On numerous occasions in the past, and particularly when I served on the town council at Neepawa, it always struck me that one of the things that was unfair about this whole subject matter was that you could not take legal action against engineers and architects. You paid them a good fee for a service, and when the service turned out to be not what you paid for, you couldn't take any legal action against them at all. Has it ever been established that anyone ever sued an engineer or an architect and recovered any damages?

I recall when we had trouble with the roof on the hospital in Neepawa and we did eventually get three people to put it on -that is, the manufacturer and the contractor and someone else -I forget -but the archi tects and the engineers took no responsibility of any kind. You paid them for a service; they wouldn't accept any responsibility. So it seems to me that something should be done. I know of engineers that have designed lagoons and plants in other towns in the province where they've run into some real problems. They haven't been designE:d large enough, and

February 23, 1967 1303 (MR. SHOEMAKER cont'd) ... ran into problems of all kinds. They're having a problem, and have had a problem at Gladstone for some years, similar in nature to the one at Portage la Prairie. You can't take any action against the people that designed it. --(Interjection)-- I don't know why you can't, but I think you should be able to. --(Interjection)--Well, my honour able friend has asked me: Did they try to take legal action? I wonder if there is a precedent. Can someone say yes you can; here's several cases where they have successfully?

I don't think that it can be established; Now one of the questions that I would particularly like to ask is why was not the consulting engineers required to stand together with the City of Portage la Prairie in the ensuing lawsuit? How was that? Now it seems to me, Mr. Speaker, that we probably have a responsibility here to enact some legislation that would make it possible for municipalities, towns, to hold these people responsible.

In most businesses, if you pay a fee for a service you expect to get good sound advice and if you don't get it then why can you not take ac.tion to recover - recover the money that you paid or recover the damages resulting from it? MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable ••... MRS. FORBES: Mr. Speaker, if there are no further questions •.••• MR. DOUGLAS CAMPBELL (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honour- able Member for Selkirk that the debate be adjourned. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 38.

The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Speaker, the Bill that is before us, according to press reports, is the most sweeping liberalization of Manitoba liquor laws in a decade and I think that that is a correct and accurate statement. They are in fact the most sweeping liberalization of the laws in a decade.

It is a decade or more I guess - 11 years is it? -' since the whole Act was amended and completely overhauled as a result of the Manitoba Liquor Inquiry Commission - this 600 page document that was headed by Bracken - and the changes that were made in the Liquor Act in 1956 or '57 resulted from all of the recommendations and findings of that com mission, and it seems to me that we are now proposing to make nearly as widespread and sweeping changes now, 10 or 11 years after this trial period, as was made then, and we're doing it this time without any report of any kind - other than of course the findings or reports of the department themselves, that is the Attorney-General's department and The Liquor Control people, I suppose they make annual reports and recommendations - but there has been no survey or ·no report made available to the public to tell us the effects of the ten or eleven year trial period, this is I think that before we proceed to make these wide and sweeping changes that perhaps we better have a look - perhaps not as comprehensive in nature as the Bracken Report - but certainly a much greater study than has been made this time.

In fact there hasn't been a study made at all that I know of, other than one that was made by the de partment. Now the Attorney-General said on two or three occasions yesterday when he spoke on second reading that - he said I think little else can be said at this time with respect to the hourly changes, etcetera, except to reiterate, as I do, that I think they do reflect contempor ary thinking and realistic thinking at the present time in the Province of Manitoba, and so on. Well I don't know whether they are realistic and contemporary.

If they are the most wide spread and sweeping changes in a decade, are they contemporary and are they realistic? That's what I think we have to make certain of at the present time. Are they in fact realistic; are they in fact contemporary. I think perhaps that we should do a little more studying as to the effect on society of the sweeping changes that were made eleven years ago. Now I do know this, that the revenues to the province from the sale of liquor has increased from roughly $9 million in 1956 to an estimated $23 million 2 - isn't it? - for the coming year.

So it would appear that certainly the consumption has gone up considerably in the eleven year period and certainly it has been a profitable business to the government. I spoke the other day on that Order for Return on this subject of alcohol education and I said that at that time it appeared to me, it appeared to me that there was no relationship at all between the revenues received from the sale of liquor on the one hand and the contributions that the government made to this whole field of alcohol education on the other.

And here was one of the strongest recommendations of the Bracken Commission, one of the strongest as I remember, was in this whole field of alcohol education. On page 699 of the Bracken Report:

1304 February 23, 1967 (MR. SHOEMAKER cont'd) •••• "we recommend that a vigorous educational campaign concern ing alcoholism and other effects of alcohol be undertaken by the government and that such education be directed to encourage abstinence for minors and discourage excess by others." That's recommendation number one there. And I 'm wondering whether or not we have been directing enough efforts towards this end. I don't think that we have; I don't think that we have.

Now itis true that one of the recommendations contained in the Bracken Report was that there should be periodic reviews, there should be periodic reviews. I wasn't here at the time but I have been reading some stories and listening to some reports and I .understand that the Honourable the First Minister said - when those drastic changes were made ten or eleven years ago - that he would go along with the changes, but he said we'll keep a close watch on it .and he said I think, I think there should be periodic reviews - and he referred to the recom mendations contained in the Bracken Commission.

Well if there has been periodic reviews as recommended by Bracken and the First Minister, if there has in fact been periodic reviews, where are they? Have they been made public or haven't they been made public and let's have them. Let's have these periodic reviews; don't hide them under a bushel. Now the report that I have here before me suggests, suggests that some of the results of liberalizing our liquor laws has not had a very good effect on the juveniles in the province - and I'm sure my honourable the Attorney--General will have this document in front of him surely.

And it is called "Referrals to the Winnipeg Family Court, 1966 report, 1966 edition." It starts off the total referrals during 1966 are as follows and lists them, and the most fre quent delinquency referred are as follows: theft, 1198 in 1966 to 1054 in 1965, or it's up roughly 150. Second in line is the breach of the liquor act, 611 in 1966 to 244 in 1965, up nearly 300 percent over last year.

Well I don't know what the total reasons are for this huge increase, but you turn over another page in which they analyze it more fully and under the heading "Winnipeg Juvenile and Family Court 1966 Referrals," the nature of delinquency by disposition, and it outlines the fines that were paid of the 611, other dispositions, probation and suspended and so on. The next page sets out the nature of delinquency by age and sex and this is the startling one as far as I'm concerned.

Under the Liquor Control Act of the 611, 1 male 10 years old, two females 11 years old, 1 female 12 years old, 7 males 13 years old and 8 females, 22 - 14, 34 girls, 15 year group 52 boys and 20 girls, 16 years 112 boys and 41 girls, 17 years old 229 boys to 68 girls, for a total of 423 boys and 174 girls for a total of 611. This is a kind of a startling revelation isn't it, when you have 300 percent increase in the drinking charges of the teen-age crowd. I think that it's a shameful kind of a report ..... --(Interjection)-- Well that's right.

Now what I am concerned about is what further effect will the new proposed liquor amendments have on the teen-age crowd. They're bad enough now, if there are 300 percent increase up from last year, what further effect will they have? MR. LYON: Will my honourable friend permit a question? Is my honourable friend aware of the fact that teen-agers are not permitted to be in licensed premises? If that is the case, how could the extension of hours of licensed premises really have any effect on the subject about which he's speaking? MR.

SHOEMAKER: I'm.not in particular saying the hours, I'm saying the whole field of advertising and I'm getting around to that right now. I think the advertising will have an effect on them. I think the advertising will have an effect on the consumption. Everyone suggests that it pays to advertise and presently is it not a fact that the Imperial on and the Ford Motor Company sponsor most of the hockey broadcasts? Is that a fact or isn't it a fact? And isn't it a fact too that the teen-age people watch most of the sports broadcasts? Isn't that a fact? --(Interjection: No, not necessarily) A great number of them do.

And I would think by liberalizing the advertising regulations and permitting the breweries to sponsor a lot of these broadcasts with their minute advertising all the way through the broadcast, that this will tend to encourage drinking. They certainly haven't stopped the teen--agers from drinking, that's for certain. And I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that all of the measures that are proposed in the Bill will in total encourage further consumption of alcohol by everybody. I'm one of the guys that believe, too, that there isn't too much excuse for drinking on Sunday in public.

For those people that want to drink, isn't it a fact that you can get up real early on Sunday, if you want to, say at 6 o'clock so you will have a long day to rest, and start drinking right then and drink till you go to bed at night. Can't you do that now? You can drink all night and all day and you can drink out in the parks. Why up at Cleal,' Lake - I had a trailer up there for many years .•.•• (ah, ha bootlegging eh?) And it had no liquor in it either- so I'll get that straight. But you can drive up there at any time in the summertime, and you can do it at most other

February 23, 1967 1305 (MR. SHOEMAKER cont'd) •••. parks, and you'll Ree people sitting around with beer and liquor on their tables and sitting around. My honourable friend should pay a visit to some of the provincial parks now and again rather than going off to Hawaii and Bermuda and Ontario to spend their holidays. When we get to tourism I'll have a little more to say about that one then. But it seems to me, Mr.

Speaker, that my honourable friend the Minister of Tourism was convincing the Attorney General a bit, influencing him perhaps on his thinking, when he introduced some of these sweeping changes, too, because he went on to say that this being our 100th birthday and gee whiz you've got to have a certain amount of liquor to celebrate properly .... did you? MR. LYON: On a point of order, I suppose. That's one thing I didn't say. I might have said it but I didn't say it. --(Interjection)-- Well it's a good argument, I'm glad you advanced it. MR.

SHOEMAKER: Well, what I thought he inferred was this, that this would be a fine time to make these sweeping changes because not only have we got a 100th birthday party coming along and we'll have the Pan-Am Games here and we'll have a lot of visitors here and we'll reap a lot of revenue for the province because of their drinking habits and so on, so let's take full advantage of these things and cash in. Let's cash in on all of these things this year. And certainly the government needs the money, there's no argument about that. There's no argument about that.

So what he proposes here is let's cash in, as I've said. Well, what I am saying is this: in light of the fact that not only Bracken recommended periodic reviews, the First Minister recommended periodic reviews 10 years ago, I think we should have periodic reviews and we should make the changes following these periodic reviews, I say we have not made periodic reviews and there has been no review made since 1956 or 57 that I know of and there has been no review made public. Let's have a review and let's find out what effects the changes that were made 10 years ago have had on our society in the mean time.

This is what I 'm saying. I do not intend to vote against the bill going to Law Amend ments because there will be lots of arguments put forward -- for and against I suppose as usual -- in the Law Amendments Committee. But I think it's a mistake to make these sweeping changes without first having made available a review of what has transpired in the last 10 or 11 years and the effect that it has had on society generally. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I had no intention of speaking on this Bill. I think that my views on this are fairly well known. I've been advocating these changes for quite a while.

But I think that some of the points brought in by my desk mate here, who is usually so realis tic, I don't think that we should allow them to pass without any rebuttal. I think that - (Interjection)-- No, I don't think that I'm working for the liquor interests but I think that it would not be too realistic -- I think it would be a waste of time to have a review that we 're talking about. I think there was, the last count, 132 reviews on the margarine question here, a few years ago. I think that we pretty well know what we think on this.

It's a question of maybe a principle With some and I certainly respect this but I think that the member who feels this way should just say so because I would not suggest that we should have another review. We've had this review every year. We have a report of the Commission. My honourable friend said that a few years ago the revenue was$ 9 million, now it's $23 million. I think that this has some indication and I am not one of them that feel that this is wrong because we feel that we will derive some revenue from this.

It is felt that this is a bit of a luxury maybe, this is not a real necessity of life, not a matter of life or death and this is something that is fairly popular to tax, this liquor. But that doesn't make it wrong. I think that we know now that the people will use liquor. And I don't want to apologize. There's nothing wrong in liquor, not a darn thing. You don't have to --(Interjection)-- yes, it is right. It's the abuse that's wrong. There's nothing wrong with liquor. And if there is something wrong with liquor on Sunday there's something wrong with liquor on Saturday, on Friday and any other day.

So the im portant thing is the abuse of liquor and nobody wants this. Nobody wants the abuse of liquor and we agree. What my honourable friend said a while ago talking about all these young girls and so on that are drinking, committing crimes and sniffing glue and so on, well this is not covered in this at all. They have no right to drink. Nobody suggested that they should and I feel that if we 're really -- what we should do is -- sure we should try to keep the minors away from it but this is something that has to be done in the home.

It's no use broadcasting and telling everybody that they shouldn't drink if they don't get this training. This is a training that's easily done in the home. This is the time that the parents should be on the lookout. I think that this is the. important thing. Maybe if we did not take this attitude that liquor is wrong,

1306 February 23, 1967 (MR. DESJARDINS cont 'd) ••• • that everything is wrong about liquor, maybe we'd be more successful. Maybe if we try to teach our children to use these things in moderation-- and 1 think that the best way of doing this is suggesting that they could have a meal -th e place to drink if you want to drink is with your meals. We know that for many families the day of re creation, the day of rest - there's nothing wrong with recreation also -i s a day of prayer for some also, but the day that the family want to be together and what a better way.

This is prayer in itself, if you stay as a family together, what better way than to go for a meal? And even if the parents can have a drink and the youngsters don't have to drink, they can see what it's all about. It's an education. It's a drink maybe before a meal and there's nothing wrong with this. In fact it is good. And to say that we 're going to capitalize on this because the tourist wants it I think we 're getting an indication of what the people in this day and age want. And that they expect we 're civilized people and we feel that the moderate use of liquor is something that's good.

There's nothing wrong with that. And if it's popular and if we can derive some revenue for the province I say go ahead. This is a good way. I don't think we have to apologize for this at all. As I said a lot of this abuse that my honourable friend quoted, these are people that are not allowed to drink, they will not be affected certainly by this ques tion of being able to have a drink with your meals on Sunday. They will not be affected with this. Now let's look at the advertising. And here I suggest that my honourable friend should be realistic.

We would have something to discuss and I might hesitate on this question if we did not have advertising now in Manitoba. But we have all these magazines that come from the States or other provinces and we feel that we 're doing a great thing by not letting our people use it? We seem to think that this is dirty money? Not necessarily. And if it's dirty money for our people there's no reason why this advertising should be allowed to come from other provinces or from the States. We have a television station that is advertising liquor now. I think that it provides for maybe some kind of a code of ethics.

I'd certainly be in favour of this. Some breweries have different cars that they use for the transportation of crippled children. I think that this is in good taste. I think this is a way of - some of the profit they turn it back to society. I think that this is an important thing. Now we've had·advertising that we use from this money derived from the revenue of the liquor to try to educate the children, the people, I, for one, do not think that there's that much value in a lot of the advertising that we call education.

I think that I would like to see this done in schools and promote different ways, with the parents and community clubs and so on and I think this would be the best way to do it. It seems to me --I've said this in the past -- that it pretty well looks like blackmail money, something that the Bracken Commission says you've got to put so much back on it. Some of this money is wasted, I think. It's only my opinion. But going back to this advertising, if all of a sudden we'd be flooding Manitoba with ad vertising about liquor.

But we have advertising of liquor and all we 're saying that the local citizens, our people who certainly could use the revenue if it's going to be allowed, cannot abuse this at all. I mentioned a while ago that I didn't think that we should have another re view because this is something. that we know. We don't have to have a review. I'm not going to change my mind. If I think it is all right to have a drink with my meal on Sunday, I don't care how many books they put on my desk, I don't care about this at all in this day and age.

I know what I want and I know what I think is right and to me there's nothing wrong with liquor. I don't have to pretend that it's wrong. I don't think there's a darn bit wrong with liquor. It's the same thing as food but it's when you don't treat it-- when you overdo it-- and there's a lot of things like that. I think that this is what we should be teaching the people of Manitoba, to try to learn to use these things in moderation. My friend says there's no advertising now, then he reads that all the crime is going up and everybody is drinking in all the summer resorts. Well what's the difference then?

What's the diff erence if they're doing it now when they're 12 or 13 I don't think it's going to do any thing at all. As I said I certainly respect the people that feel- if they say this is wrong, this is fine. :{3ut I do not think that we should try to hide and say bring in more reports. This is a waste of time. Let's face it. If we are for it I think we can adopt this in principle and res pect the other people's views. I certainly intend to do it.

I feel that --I said before that you don't lose your right as an individual because you're an elected representative-- but I thought that maybe, and this is just my opinion, I'm not making a rule, but I thought that I-- the Honourable Member from Elmwood yesterday when he made a speech. I don't agree with what he had to say and I think that maybe it might have been a little --(Interjection)-- no, because

February 23, 1967 130:r (MR. DESJARDINS cont'd) .•.• he spoke on the Lord1s Day Act. That's all he spoke about as far as I'm concerned-- and I think that maybe he should have said that h�1s interested. in going in the cabaret business or in the night club business, because apparently this is what he wants 'to do and I think we should be told that. He has the right to defend. But maybe we take some· of the things that were said yesterday with tongue in cheek. So I'm certainly willing to listen to all the suggestions that will be brought in this.

I can say this now that I've been advocating this for a number of years. What I advocated mostly was the chance to have a nice quiet drink, if you wanted to, not force it on anybody, on Sunday. This is the part that I like more than anything else, because I feel that --I repeat again that the thing that is wrong is the abuse of it, and if it's wong on Sunday it's wrong on another day. So I certainly will vote for the principle of this.

I don't say that there won •t be any amendments that I will support but in general I think that it is a good hili� I think that Manitoba is not only ready, is overdue for this; and if, besides this, we can have a bonus of gettmg some money from this revenue to educate our people or to pay for our hospitals, I say so much the better. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. LEMUEL HARiUS (Logan): Mr. Speaker, 'after listening to the various things that went along on this bill I speak personally for myself, I don •t 8peak for any of my Party.

Each one can do as he wants on this thing. -- (Interjection)-- Speak from the heart is right. I See this, that you go to these various provinces, you go to the various .states i.D.'united States and it is up to you, you can use restrain and you know what you want. You 're not like the man �ose wife sent him out for a jar of cherries, so he ends up in. a liquor lounge and he's drinking martinis and he kept dropping cherries in the jar. So somebody says, "Gee willikens, what is he saving all the cherries for?" He says his wife sent b.J.n; out for a ja:i· of cherries so he's getting her a jar of cherries.

So there's different ways of doiri.g things. There's·different ways to look at things. --(Interjection)-- Well it is a good way. After all he was pickled. she got her cherries and everything was fine. · But' I say in all seriousness we have to use restrain arid I think lf we do that :..�u we use restrain we can iron this thing out and I think that we'll get''�ore people•commg into:Manitoba because it won't be closed down on a Sunday and our laws are more liberalized and iJeop�e can act accordingly. Thank you. ' · ' · · MR. RODNEY S. CLEMENT (Birtle-Russell): Mr.

Speaker, once again; I'� a man of few words and after ten years in a legislature seldom have t wished that I hli.d more cOJ1trol of '· the English language to say what I want to say in the right kind of language, but I haven't· got ·' them so I'm going to say it anyway. ' A few days ago when this bill was brought in, not too i6hg ago, the Honourable Member from Elmwood - I almost fell off of my chair listening to this gentleman speak� My goodness gracious me, you would think that alcohol was more important:at2:00'o'clockon Sunday morn ing than a lot of other things are.

I didn't know at the time that he was interested in the tjpe 'of business that my bible thumping friend on my right here on orie hand is the greatest religious man in this House, and on the other lUmd he's the greatest guy in favour of alcohol. This tO me just doesn't add up and if this province has got to make a living arid if we've got to drink �isky 24 hours a day, then dad-darn it's time some of us left it and I think I'll be one of the ones to go. Mr. Speaker, I have been around this world more than mos t people in this Legislature.

I have certainly seen a lot of the bad parts of liquor, and there's darn few good parts about it, and I think that it's doggone time that. some of the people came into this Legislature and talked about liquor in the tone of voice that they were thinking about themselves, not about the liqU.or monopolies and not about votes. There's no reason - Ebnwobd apparently must be pretty close to st. Boniface because they seem to want to have alcohol over there. I for one don't believe in it.

I think that we've got long enough hours and I know as far as I'm concerned I can get .all the booze I want - and I might as well admit once or twice I foimd I· got too much - with the hours we •ve got now. We don't need to be drinking all night long and I have no intention of getting up at six o'clock in the morning and start drinking it. Maybe the profession he's in he needs a drink once in a while at six in the morning. I don't know.

And I could tell the honourable gentle man from Logan that if he goes to a cocktail lounge to get cherries, he better start drinkiJ:ig Tom Collinses, not martinis, because martinis have got olives in them. Anyway, Mr. Speaker, I do not intend to say anything more. I honestly think and I am sincere about it and- sure, perhaps some people think I am not the one to talk about alcohol but surely to goodness somewhere down the line this business has got to stop. My shattered

1308 February 23, 1967 (MR. CLEMENT cont'd), .•. nerves! One of these days there'll be a fountain on Portage Ave. You put two bits in and push the button and get a quarters worth of booze. This has got to come to a stop somewhere and I think right now's the time to stop and I appeal to the members on the other side - this is a free vote -when this thing comes up, stop it where it is. We've got enough of it. MR. FROESE: Mr. Speaker, I think this is the proper time to get up. It takes less courage after you've heard a member that has opposed it.

While the changing of the hours wouldn't affect me personally because I have no reason ever to get any liquor myself, never theless I don't feel that I can support the bill, especially lengthening and opening the hours for Sunday, but there seems to be a real paradox when we come to the advertising section. The cost of advertising naturally will be put on the sale of liquor and the people that buy the liquor will have to pay more. Then we turn around and the Legislature are going to decide that we will be spending more on education to combat this, educating our young people against the use of liquor.

This just means that the taxpayer has to put up more m'mey. I think this is altogether foolish. Why open the doors on liquor advertising? Let's keep them closed and save the money and use the money for some other purposes. I'm sure that we have a lot of areas where we need the money more and where there is a greater need than for that - first spending it foolishly and then trying to tax people to undo things that have been done.

I think there's no doubt by opening the doors further and by lengthening the hours, that more drinking will occur and I don't think this is a worthy thing, especially for our Centennial Year, to do. I think it's the wrong course that we're following. I would like to know from the Minister when he closes the debate whether or not it is the intention of the government through the regulations to increase the fees or the taxes on liquor at the same time that they bring in these changes. I think this is something we as members should be aware of. MR. SIDNEY GREEN (Inkster): Mr.

Speaker, I don't have a great deal to say with re gard to this debate, but I do think that it is incumbent upon the members of this House to clarify what we are voting upon. I don't think that the division that will take place when the vote is finally taken will be a division which is based on those who are in favour of drinking as against those who are not in favour of drinking.

I think probably emotionally - although I can't claim to be a teetotaller - that I would like to see less consumption of alcohol, but I'm inclined to agree with the remarks that were made yesterday by the Honourable Member for Selkirk that this objective is not one that will be achieved by some sort of enforcement of laws. I was very happy to hear from the Honourable Member from Birtle-Russell, I believe it is, who first apologized by saying that he possibly couldn't express himself as well as many, Mr.

Speaker, I don't think he has anything to apologize for; certainly the remarks he made conveyed a great deal more than is sometimes conveyed by people who perhaps have a more sophisticated way of talking. It reminds me of some of the things that Casey Stengel said. Stengel spoke a language of his own, he spoke "Stengelese", and yet some of the thoughts which were expressed by Casey Stengel were more profound than I've heard expressed by any body else.

Stengel when spoken to about his age -I believe he was in his 80's, he still is in his SO's or close to there - said "Most men my age are dead by now" and I think that certainly is a thought that couldn't be expressed by somebody who has a sophisticated way of speaking and yet it certainly conveys a lot. But to get back to the remarks on liquor, Mr. Speaker, I don't think that this division is going to take place on the basis of those who are in favour of drinking and those who are against drinking.

I think that essentially it will be a division on the basis of those who feel that people should have greater freedom to choose what they will do as against those who feel that by legislation we can somehow cure a social disease which they feel needs curing. I feel for one, Mr. Speaker, that the allowance of a greater freedom in this particular area will have as pro found and as significant an effect on curing the social disease as will stricter legislation, and that's the way I'm going to vote on this particular question. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR. T.P. HILLHOUSE, Q.C. (Selkirk): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Lakeside that the .debate be adjourned. · MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 43. The Honourable Member for la Verendrye. MR. VIELFAURE: Mr. Speaker, I do not rise to oppose this Bill. I just wanted to pass a few comments, more specifically on the part that deals with the transferring of water control

February 23, 1967 1309 (MR. VIELFAURE cont'd) .•.. to the Department of Highways and I certainly am in favour of that move. Although the ill effects of water control and conservation are most of the time felt by farmers, I think that the Department of Highways is better equipped to deal with the matter than the Department of Agriculture. I think today with our scarcity of engineers I think the work can be complemented more whenever researches are being made by the Department of Highways as to levels and so on, I think the same engineers can do part of the work that is needed for both studies .

Although we have passed the age of making a road in order to have a ditch or a ditch in order to have a road, I think there is still a great deal of work connected with highways when drainage is being done . The fact that the water courses have to be brought across highways or alongside highways or provincial roads at one time or another, I think makes it more con venient for this department to be under the Highways Department .

Also I think it will make the Department of Agriculture estimates more realistic in the fact that water control as I said is not entirely bearing on agriculture and therefore will mean that the money spent on agriculture will be more directly to the benefit of agriculture . There fore, Mr . Speaker , I intend to support this Bill. MR. SAMUEL USKIW (Brokenhead): Mr .

Speaker, I too rise not in opposition to the bill but only to make some observations and mainly these observations are that I'm hopeful that we have improved liaison between the Department of Agriculture and the farming community, that probably because we have agriculture defined as purely agriculture, that we will have much better communication. Perhaps we won't have a difficult time in getting the attention of our Minister on issues pertaining to agriculture, so in short I'm just simply endorsing this move. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried . MR.

SPEAKER : Bill No. 52. The Honourable the Attorney-General . MR . LYON: Mr . Speaker, I wonder if I might have permission to have this matter stand? We're getting some more information on some of the questions that were asked. MR. SPEAKER: The second reading of Bill No. 56. The Honourable the Provincial Treasurer. MR. EV ANS presented Bill No. 56 -a n Act to provide for the Imposition of a Tax on Purchasers of Tangible Personal Property and Certain Services for second reading . MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR.

EV ANS: I think I'm anticipating some wish on the part of some members of the House for some explanation of the Bill. I shall try, Sir , to confine my remarks today to the principle of the bill. This is the right stage for the discussion of principle and we 've had some debate, doubtless we'll have more at later stages on the necessity for or the justification of the bill, but I shall not intro duce that subject today. I shall try to give an outline description of the bill in which I think the main principles will appear and my suggestion would be that honourable members accumulate their questions.

No doubt many of them will be suggested during the course of the second reading debate but at committee stage we should have a very good opportunity to hold informal discussion on ques tions that may be asked . MR . SPEAKER: I would like to bring to the attention of the House that there's far too much talking going on. Could a similar attention be directed to the Minister that has the floor? The Honourable the Provincial Treasurer . MR. EVANS: So my suggestion would be that we endeavour to have as many questions posed as possible.

I shall try to gather questions together on given topics and try to give at later stages , particularly in committee, as full information as the members would like to have concerning either particular matters or indeed the principles and application of the Bill. It's a taxation· measure on the purchase or consumption of goods; it's popularly known as a sales tax, inaccurately actually because a province is able to impose only an indirect tax, but it 's popularly known as , it's an unpopular tax popularly known as a sales tax. I recognize it under that title ; I have no objection to referring to it in that way.

Honourable members will notice that they are free to refer to it in almost any way they like under the designation of the Revenue Tax Act which is what appears on the Bill itself . There will be an imposition of a five percent tax upon the purchase or consumption of a wide range of goods and certain services . In the Bill the exemption to the taxes are set out , leaving the other goods to be taxed but the particular services to be taxed are described and set out . Exemptions are provided in the Bill, largely to cover necessities of living and certain production goods and equipment for production

13 10 February 23, 1967 (MR. EVANS cont'd) ..•. on the farm and in industrial factories. The services generally speaking that will be taxed are the services which are to be made to a persons possessions, to goods rather than services to the person himself or herself .

That is personal services generally speaking are exempt, the services which have been chosen are the services which apply to a persons· possessions or goods; In the Bill, provision is made for inter-provincial co- operation, for two reasons: first to insure that two provincial sales taxes do not apply to the same purchase where the goods are shipped from one province to another, and that's avoiding duplication of taxation; and in the ·second place to have a mutual arrangement with other proVinces to collect each others taxes . So there is a double purpose for having inter-provincial co-o peration in this field .

The tax will be collected by the storekeeper or merchant or the person referred to in the Bill as the vendor, who for that purpose will become an agent of the Crown and he will be paid a commission on the amount of tax that he collects each month. Services that are mentioned in the Bill probably have a greater impact on people of higher income than they have of lower in come because-! think it's true to say that the higher the income of a person the more the ser vices he buys.

So in that sense and in some technical terms the taxation of services is prob ably mildly progressive, that is to say it will have a heavier weight on people as their incomes rise. We are going farther in this measure than any other province in Canada in taxing ser vices; there's a wide body of technical opinion that says this is the right thing to do in spreading the burden of taxation over the various classes of taxpayers, and in general we are probably going somewhat farther than other provinces - sales taxes on services are not new but probably we are going farther than other jurisdictions at this time.

The exemptions are intended generally speaking to relieve hardship. The first group that we had in mind were young families, probably the young famil ies of lower income, and for that reason we have provided exemptions for food, for childrens clothing and footwear and for the normal rent of permanent residents or lodgings. We are also trying to provide for the relief of burden of those who are ill or who have additional burdens placed on them because they are ill by exempting drugs and medical supplies and even appliances of various kinds .

In the Bill, exemptions are provided for production costs for a number of reasons, pro duction costs on the farm , in industrial operations and in fishing· operations and the kinds of things that are being exempted in those fields are the materials that are used, raw materials and others , and on-the equipment that's purchased to manufacture the goods or to provide the taxable services. These exemptions are to avoid the double imposition of the same tax on the Same· article. It seems clear to me that if you tax the raw material and then tax the machine that manufactures it and then take the

article that has been thus produced by taxed material" aild a taxed machine and tax it again in the hands of the purchaser, that you're im posing the same tax on the same

article twice or even more. Consequently-we are exempting industrial and other raw materials on the farm, in factories and in fishing operations for those reasons. Another reason of course is to give every opportunity for our production here, at least in those three fields , to remain competitive with other proVinces .and other areas; and in that respect we are imposing our taxes in the same way as those other jurisdictions and so there's no difference . We- are not raising our taxes above those to be found in our competitor neigh bouring provinces.

By relieVingthe taxation to this extent on farm operations, we're also by that much helping to keep the cost of food down and the cost of food are a matter of concern to many people in these days . In the Bill we have been conscious of a responsibility to keep public inconvenience down to the greatest possible extent. No one will doubt that this is an inconvenience to the public to have a sales tax imposed. I recognize that and I' m sure it's obvious. But there may be some ways in which we can relieve some parts of the ·inconvenience it would not be justified to impose on people.

I have in mind here particularly private transactions between two private citizens, private sales , sometimes referred to as neighbour to neighbour sales , where an exchange of goods is made without the intervention of a vendor or a co=ercial operation of any kind; the kind of thing that one has in mind are the articles that are sold and advertised for sale shall we say in the advertising columns of the newspapers, articles for sale, swaps, articles of a small value, and so it will be provided in the Bill and through the regulations that articles which are sold and which do not pass through a co=ercial enterprise of any kind or through the intervention of a vendor - and here we 're excluding such articles as are sold at auction, or through second- hand stores which make a business of doing it and doing it for a

February 23, 1967 1. 311 (MR .. EVANS cont'd) ... profit - those articles are not being referred to in what I'm saying now. But in articles that pass from person to person or neighbour to ne ighbour the tax will not be levied on a sale below $200 . 00. This is for the reason that the responsibility will be placed upon the purch aser of an

article that has been sold in this way to report the sale and to remit the tax and it does seem that we would have an unenforceable law if we reqUired every purchaser who bought a small

article from a ne ighbour or a friend or indeed from any other citizen to report the sale and to send a remittance in whatever form was pos sible, of 1 cent or 2 cents or 5 cents or 10 , or indeed anything up to $10. 00 .

We think at that level it is right to expect the citizen to respond to a public duty imposed on him in· the Act, to report this sale and to remit the tax thereon, but it would be unreasonable to expect that duty to be per formed at levels below a $200. 00 sale or in other terms a $10.0 0 tax.· In making these remarks I should make it clear that used automobiles will be excluded from.this arr::�ngement .

In other words if a used automobile is sold for an amount less than $200.00 itwill still be taxable , and the sale will be readily discerned because the automobile has to be registered in the new owners name , and the amount that will be taxed in the case of automobiles will be the net amount after the turn-in of any other automobile that's turned in on it . If an automobile is purchased for $1, 000 and another one was taken in trade at - shall we say $600 .0 0 - the tax will apply to the difference , namely $400 .0 0 or the increased or addi tional value of the new

article - not the new

article perhaps - but the

article which is the sub ject of the purchase at that point . Obviously when the

article taken in trade or the turn in comes to be sold, if it's sold for cash, the tax will apply to the total sale price , if it's sold after taking in a trade-in it then follows the same cycle again and only the value of the mark up as it were or the difference in value will be taxable . Merchants and vendors will be designated agents of the Crown, in fact treasury officers, for the purpose of collecting the tax. They will be registered and licensed all retail merchants will be registered and licensed and they must have a license in order to sell at retail as a commercial operation in the province .

There will be no fee charge for the registration but it's neces sary to register the vendors, I think it's pretty clear. first for the administration of the Act and second to have the capacity in the hands of those enforcing the law to withdraw the privilege of selling if the vendor does not live up to his obligations or to evade the law. A commission will be paid, as I mentioned earlier, on the amount of the tax collected. The commis sion in this regard will be very similar in amount to competitive provinces again, notably Saskatchewan .

So there are four main parts that I have endeavoured to set out in this outl:ine description. A sales tax is a tax on consumption. It is not a new tax but is es s�ntial to the mainte nanee of a balanced type structure when as in our case new revenues must be raised and when other taxes have been utilized to a level at least eqUal to other provinces ._and particUlarly neig:h bouring provinces - and in some cases above as in our case .

The basic exemptions are provided to benefit those of low income, to benefit the development of industry, to give some relief to those who are ill, to relieve as far as this measure is concerned the additional cost in the production of food. Personal services are to be exempt, although some taxes are imposed.upon services which are performed on a persons possessions . The tax is broadly based to draw into its ambit support from the whole 'community and the Act provides for compensation to those making the collection of the tax.

The tax is a community sharing in a balanced structure of a community obligation, support for the essential development of human resources and economic progress developments of general benefit throughout the community will be borne by a sales tax on a broader base and in a more general way throughout the community than any other form of tax that we were able to propose at this time . Then, Mr . Speaker, that has been the general outline of the main provisions of the Bill. I shall be listening with closest attention and be following the records of the debate as it proceeds.

I want to provide the fullest information that members would like to have . I welcome the broade st discussion and look forward to continuing this discussion . MR. MOLG AT: Mr. Speak er, I'd like to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Lakeside, that the debate be adjourned. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried.

1312 February 23, 19 67 MR . EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move , seconded by the Honourable the Attorney General, that Mr. Speaker do now. leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, with the Honourable Member for A rthur in the C .1 air. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR. CHAffiMAN: No. XIV - Tourism and Recreation. Resolution 91 - 1 (a)-- MR. LYON: Mr.

Cha irman, I look forward to making a few remarks at the opening of the estimates of this department.

Firstly, because it is a new department of government and I am pleased and privileged to have the responsibility of making a report to you about it; and secondly, because I regard it as one of the more fascinating departments of government in that its purpose in life is to encourage the development of the natural recreational resources of our province not only for the benefit of our people in Manitoba, which is our prime concern, but also fbr the benefit and the use and the enjoyment of all of the people of this continent and in deed people who wish to visit our province from whatever part of the world.

So I say it's a great pleasure to introduce these estimates of this department for the fir st time and, hope fully, to give honourable members some ideas of the plans that we have in mind for the future of the department, and hopefully as well to receive some advice from the members of the committee as to how we might better improve the programs that we intend to lay before you. I should say at the outset that previous to the establishment of the department the areas now under its control were taken care of by other government departments.

The department was established in recognition of the growing leisure time and requirements not only of the ci tizens of Manitoba, our prime concern, but the citizens of the whole continent. The growing recrea tional demands of the populations of this continent, both at home and as tourists, prompted the government to establish the department to co-ordinate the operation of three areas of distinct inter-relation and I'll describe these areas very briefly to you. The department is divided into four branches under the supervision and leadership of the Deputy Minister, Mr.

Guy Moore, and I hes itate for a moment to introduce Mr.

Moore to the members of the committee , to tell you that I believe we were fortunate indeed to obtain his services from the Province of Ontario where he had served in a similar capac ity as the Deputy Minister of Tourism in that province and, more recently, he had served as Chairman of one of the large Ontario Parks Commissi ons , and so we have, giving administrative leadership to the department, a man who is well versed in the tourism business in the largest province of our country and a man whose talents I think will be - and are proving to be - of great benefit already in our new department. Under Mr.

Moore, the branches that I mentioned before are the Parks Branch, which was formerly with the Department of Mines and Natural Resources, and it's under the very capable direction of Mr. Waiter Danyluk who is known to many of the members of the House. The Tourism Branch, formerly with the Department of Industry and Commerce, still remains under the able direction and friendly direction of Wilf Organ, who is also known to I think most members of the committee.

The .Co mmunity Recreation Branch, which was formerly called the Physical Fitness and Amateur Sport Branch of the Department of Welfare, remains under its capable directorship of Mr. Allan Miller who came to us from the Department of Welfare. We have .one further branch , the Administrative Branch, to co-ordinate the activities of the department and that is under the direction of Mr. Stan Eagle ton.

We were fortunate to be able to obtain his services from the Department of Mines and Natural Resources and he is render ing the same exceptional service in this department that he has given for many years in the Department of Mines and Natural Resources. My colleague says it was highway robbery for me to take these good men from him, but the fact remains we're happy to have them remaining in government service. A word or two might be in order at the outset on the general policy and philosophy of the department.

First of all, the three operative branches --that is Parks, Tourism and Recre ation - a description of their function wou ld perhaps give the clearest possible indication of the general planning orientation of the department. First of all on the Parks Branch, the parks of the province are being developed now through the new department. We hope they are being developed in a manner which is best cal culated to meet the expanding leisure time requirements that I spoke of before, not only for our

February 23, 1967 13 13 (MR. LYON cont'd. ) . . . . • own people but for tol'rists who are coming here in greater numbers each year. This entails three distinct types of park development. These are, first of all, the roadside parks which are designed to provide a convenience for tourists who travel in and through Manitoba, providing camping and cooking faci lities and it is hoped encourage ment to the tourist to prolong his stay in our province. The second type of park development is the regional park which is located to serve the residents of the province. The general plans of the department call for the eventual location of a regional park in each

section of the prov ince such that no major centre of Manitoba should be outside of driving range of a public recre ational area. This I stress is one of the long-term aims. Thirdly of the three types of parks we have the provincial park type, the largest. We presently have nine of them and these per form the dual function of serving the tourist and the citizens of the province in providing a wide spectrum of activities that are not available in many of the smaller recreational areas or regional parks .

The over-all planning behind the parks development of Manitoba is on the assumption that our parks have two general markets to serve. First,· there are the demands of the citizens of Manitoba for public recre ational space to fill the recre ational time that is now available - or the leisure time that is now available to them; and secondly, there is the expanding tourist market, and that leads me directly into a brief discussion of the function of the Tourism Branch of the Department. Members of the committee, Mr.

Chair man, will be interested to know that the tourist industry last year yielded a revenue of something in the neighbourhood of $54 mil lion to the people of Manitoba. As such, it must be considered one of our major industries, and I stress the fact that this is not tax revenue, this is business that is done in the Province of Manitoba by visitors travelling through our province. Therefore, the aim of the Tourism Branch is to encourage tourists to visit the province and further to encourag� the adequate servic ing of the tourist customer while he is here.

This of course calls for an extensive promotional campaign in Canada, and particularly in the United States, and to this end the Tourist Branch has ad vertised Manitoba in many of the major publications both here and in the United States; and further , they have produced films and literature which are being very widely distributed among those who are interested.

Within the province the Tourism Branch encourages the upgrading of such services to the tourist as accommodation, restaurants, service stations and so on, both iq terms of advice by control of licencing in the case of accommodation not covered by the Liquor Control Act and by an education process directed to the community at large which aims to encourage an effective exploitation of the recreational potential of the province. The development of private tourist facilities is controlled through this branch of the department.

By consultation between the Parks Branch and the Tourist Branch, the private and public recre ational developments are planned so as to be complementary rather than competitive, one with the other. · I come now to the Community Recreation Branch. This branch, as I have formerly said, was the Physical Fitness and Amateur Sport Branch of the Department of Welfare. Its name has been changed and its area of concern has been widened to include a whole range of recre ational activities from athletic to cultural.

The main purpose of this branch is to promote the community servicing of leisure time recreational requirements. This is not a program designed to make the people of the province dependent on the Provincial Government for their personal recreation; it is rather a self-help program designed to assist communities in the improvement and the expansion of their recreational services presently offered to their citizens.

It's the desire of the branch to make the recreational programs of communities independent of the government, and to this end they operate leadership training programs, many of which are run at the Leadership Training Centre at Gimli. Recently renovated, this centre can now be open on a year-round basis. In addition to the programs run at Gim li, the branch organizes many workshops throughout the province which bring first-ra te instruction in everything from athletics to painting to communities where such instruc tion is not normally available. One of the chief functions of the Community Recrea tion Branch, Mr.

Chairman, is the co-ordination of leisure time activities throughout the province. The branch provides a clear ing house for information through its extensive contacts with many of the private recreational groups such as athletic associations, and it is able to advise communities on sources of in formation and assistance in the designing of their own recreational programs. They encourage the development of local community recreational communities which will organize and co ordinate recreational activities offered in each community. The branch is empowered to make.

13 14 February 23, 1967 (MR. LYON cont'd. ) • . . . . small grants up to a maximum of $600. 00 to these committees to assist them in the development. of new recreational programs. These .grants are not available for the maintenance of programs which were previously offered without government support.

Perhaps one of the most outstanding co-ordinating functions of the agency is its contact with the School of Physical Education at the University of Manitoba. ·M any of these students will, it is hoped, take employment in our province, and through the programs run by the branch, they have spent time in many of the smaller communities of the province instructing and super vising workshops in training programs. Therefore, to summarize the activities of the branches that I have outlined to you briefly, the department represents I believe a recognition of the growing leisure time of the people of this continent.

Through this department the government is determined not only to see to it that leisure time requirements of our own people are met but that Manitoba gets its fair. share of the expanding tourist trade which accompanies this trend. Perhaps I could give you a few more words on the highlights of some of the programs in the past years if that would be of assistance to members .

On the other hand, if they would prefer to direct particular questions with respect to these items as we come to them in the estimates, that might be the more expedient way of dealing with the separate branches of the government and I'll abide by the members ' decision in that regard, Mr. Chairman, and take my seat, hoping that this has been of some help to outline the work of the new department. MR. EAR L DAWSON (Hamiota): I realize that the Department of Tourism and Recre ation is a relatively new one, and to offer criticism, one may wonder if it's justified.

However, I hope that the criticisms that I offer today will be taken as constructive criticism and some of these suggestions that I have for the department may be adopted in the very near future. It's my thought that tourism could be a greater producer of dollars for us if we could succeed in enticing more of our American neighbours to visit Manitoba in greater numbers. The government, I believe, has failed to do this . Now I don't believe it's all right to hide be hing the guise of it's a new department and we're revitalizing it and we're going to do better.

I also think with all the propaganda that we've received about tourism, one would think we've been a huge success, but I think the figures would show that we have not been a huge success. The Dominion Bureau of Statistics show that of the 100 percent number of tourists that come into Canada each year, Manitoba has three percent of this, and this three percent has been static for the past four or five years.

Our share of the $55 million in 1966 is far short of the national average which would be -- Manitoba's fair share, which we should have allocated to us, was about $74 million so we're not making the steps that we should be making in tour ism. It's very good to be building parks and beaches and camping areas, etc. , throughout the province, but I think that we're falling down if we're not going to entice more than 10 percent visitors to these particular parks and camping things.

The figures show - the government figures incidentally show that 90 percent of the people that have visited the provincial parks in 1966 were Manitobans; we've only drawn 10 percent of outside visitors. Now we wonder how can we do better if our ideas are the same each year. I know if our parks and camping sites and our ski resorts aren't enlarged quickly enough to meet the needs , people get the idea that the facilities we have are too small and they don't come back. I could cite many examples of this, and of course the one that is close to home is the Rivers Lake.

The Trailer park there has become too small; the tenting facilities are much too small. I'm told that this exists in many of our provincial parks . I don't believe we have met the boom in tourism or in camping, and I think if we're going to draw outside interest such as the Americans to our camping sites, not only Americans but Saskatchewans and Ontarions , any thing but Manitobans to bring in the extra tourist dollars, we've got to gear our facilities to young people.

I think that we should be providing dance floors and faci lities for socializing . and make sure that we have modern washrooms and toilet facilities in all these various camps and parks. Now I think that one facet where we have failed badly is where private resort areas are being developed. We know a developer builds a number of cottages in a development but he usually does not provide water, so what happens? The buyer of the cottage digs himself a well, builds an unsanitary outside toilet, which really doesn't have any appeal for outside visitors, but I guess to the owner it's better than nothing.

What I'd like to see is the private developers and other developers that are going into the summer type cottage resorts on our lakes be allowed to use the services of the Manitoba Water Supply Board to find a source of

February 23, 196 7 13 15 (MR. DAWSON cont'd. ) . . . . . water, develop this source and assist in a consultive way with the sewage disposal. The Manitoba Water Supply Board should be available for these resort areas the same way as our towns and villages can avail themselves of this.

Now there's another facet where I think the government - I don't know whether they've thought of this or not - but in the outlying resort areas for lodges, etc. , where these people must provide their own electricity, they have to use gasoline naturally to run the pumps to generate their electricity, and I wondered if the government had taken into consideration the possibility of giving these people purple gasoline as we have done or will do for the agricul turalists in Manitoba.

This ga soline, by the time it's flown up north in particular where these lodges are, costs approximately $1 .0 0 a gallon by the time it's in there and it becomes an extra expense to the poor fellow who's trying to operate a summer camp. Now I think too that our liquor laws should be relaxed - and I'm rather pleased to see that some efforts are being made in that particular area - but I would like to see the liquor laws relaxed in our parks and our camps as they will be in the restaurants. I know my friend from over here says that you can do it anyway, but you can't do it legally.

Now I think a dif ferent grading system must be instituted for our restaurants, hotels and motels. This is done in other provinces and it's very successful as a tourist promotion. People who are strangers to a city like to know what kind of a motel or hotel they will stay in before they see it and what type of rating for food before visiting a restaurant. As you know, . we have people visit our province that have various degrees of wealth and I think that if persons know what type of restaurant they are going to or what type of hotel they're going to, there's no embarrassment for either the rich or the poor.

I also think there should be a strong advertising bureau where tourist promotions could be done. What we need is a strong office to include the Manitoba Tourist Assoc iation and all these others that we have throughout the province. This office could not only promote the .at tractions of Manitoba's tourism and recre ation, but should be promoting the industrial oppor tunities as well. I believe that a combined advertising office such as I'm proposing would handle all the selling of Manitoba and we could probably spend more and do it more cheaply if we combined the office of advertising, industry and tourism.

Now to show you, here is an example of how we can improve. This is taken from the Winnipeg Free Press. It's a letter that was written to Gene Telpner and it's by a Winnipegger who bad just visited several American cities, including Washington, Miami and Florida. He was impressed by what be saw. Crossi ng the border back into Canada be picked up a Manitoba vacation handbook put out by the Tourist Development Branch of the province. The tourist said in his note to Mr. Telpner about the booklet: "Here from Pages 28, 29 are some of the points of interest to you as a tourist in the Winnipeg area.

The points include the CPR rail way yards as seen from the Arli ngton Street Bridge, the cement plant as seen from the high way, the stockyards, Louis Riel's_ grave, Gypsum mine south of St. Norbert, the Sports Gallery at the Winnipeg Arena, and of course models of the Centennial Centre." According to the Winnipeg man be didn't find some of the things too inspiring from the standpoint of a tour ist, and I agree. I know that the advertising job has not been done properly, and once again I could cite the Rivers Lake.

It has been in existence for three or four years as a provincial park and camping site, and yet each year - I'm sure it's the Tourist Promotion Bureau that puts out the list in the two large papers, the Free Press and the Tribune, where they advertise all the camps that we have in Manitoba - and the past two years the Rivers camp and the facil ities that it provides have been left out. Now I feel that we are boobing once again in the field of advertising insomuch as I wrote a letter to the Minister telling him that there was to be a Centennial Midget Hockey Tourna ment take place in Kingston, Ontario.

It was to be a big affair. The Federal Government were making a large contribution to offset the cost of this insomuch as they were supplying the transportation for a team from every province, including the Yukon and North West Territories, but there was not enough money in the "kitty" nor would there be after gate receipts and every thing because the teams that are going down there will pay absolutely nothing towards the cost. It's a Centennial Tournament and will only occur this year and never again.

I wrote the Minister asking him if he would sponsor an ad on behalf of the Manitoba Government - or the Tourist Department, I should say - either taking out a $10 0. 00 ad in the program or a $50. 00 one, whichever he thought the government could afford, and I pointed out that this would be -- I didn't point out in the letter to him but I made it quite clear that there would be someone from every province across Canada. It's a lifetime souvenir for the people who attend. They expect

February 23, 1967 131 6 (MR. DAWSON cont'd. ) . • . • . to put thirty to 35, 000 people through the gates in that week, so I think if we had taken a $100. 00 ad in this program that it would have cost us literally nothing to advertise Manitoba. I was very disappointed when the letter came from the Tourist Department telling me that they could not afford to take out this ad. I thought it was a bad mistake because they could well afford to take it out for the benefits they would be getting from it.

Now I think that we should be junking the present type of signs that we're using for high ways, particularly those telling us that these have been built by the Minister of Highways. I think we should be getting distinctive signs for Manitoba, signs with catchy advertising, and a lot more than we have right now. Not only should these signs advertise and point out the re sort areas, I think it would be wise to advertise our towns better.

Now I don't know about other people, but some of the areas that I've driven through you take a side road off the high way and you end up in a nice little town, but there was nothing to tell you where you were going, and this is I believe typical of quite a few areas throughout Manitoba. I also think that when we are putting up these signs that these signs should be large enough so that when our tourists want to stop and take pictures of them they should be able to take a picture of some thing that is there and not just one of these little dinky signs.

I think that these agricultural fairs that are held throughout the summer on behalf of our agriculturalists should be assisted by Tourism insomuch as I think Tourism could help them with their advertising. They could help them with their advertising inter-provincially. I know that last year the people in the area of Rivers assisted the Rivers Fair last year with advertis ing.

We advertised outside our own area and we found that the fair drew a tremendous amount of entries and a much larger crowd than had ever been there before, but we didn't have pro fessional help to advertise this and I'm sure it could be done through a central office where professional people wou ld be employed. Another thing I be lieve is that the tourism people couid probah:y take some tips from the Europeans. They really promote some very successful festivals over there which draw thousands of people to their area and to their country.

I believe - I know we have the ethnic groups in Manitoba to promote the type of festivals I'm suggesting. I think probably many of us have heard of the October Fest which is celebrated by the German people. They literally draw thousands to these particular festivals - about a two-day celebration - and this could easily be promoted in Winnipeg. We have the people who could do it and take

part in it, and I'm sure that with some good advertising it would be a tremendous tourist attraction. We also have the Ukrainian group where we could have a festival in the spring and the French in sum mer if we want to go that far. We know that the Trappers' Festival in The Pas is successful and attracts many tourists, and this is what I'm suggesting with these ethnic groups.

The City of Brandon holds a winter carnival annually and I think that with the depart ment's help once again of Tourism in their advertising that this project could be a big success, particularly if it was advertised inter-provincially and around the close American states. The merchants put up a considerable amount of money to promote this thing but they haven't got the professional touch again, where we could be bringing an influx of tourist dollars to Manitoba. I think that our historical sites and our buildings should be marked more clearly and a cat alogue or program be available for these particular items.

Now I'm sure that many of us have seen the large white horse that is off Highway No. 1 here as we head west. What's the explanation for it being there, I don't know. Why don't we have a sign as we approach it to tell us what it is , or at least slow down so we can have a look at it. Now I have driven past there I'll bet you 50 times with 50 different people and not one has been able to tell me what that horse is. I see someone put up their hand - well maybe he could tell me afterwards what it's all about.

I hate to suggest to a government that already has so many committees and com missions, but why don't we have a Manitoba Historical Site Society Committee to mark and catalogue these sites that warrant it. I think too that there's a need for a clear and non-commercial visitor's map of the City of Winnipeg. According to one of the groups that are working for a better Manitoba, they say that the present map is of commercial character and doesn't have any of the points of interest to a visitor in it. I think another area where we've fallen down is in our Customs offices.

I have been told that we should urge the Federal Government to keep all our Customs offices open on a 24-hour basis. I realize that this once again costs a little more money, but the one in particular that

February 23, 1967 13 17 (MR. DAWSON cont'd. ) ..... I would suggest would be the Westhope-Coulter office where people have had to drive as much as 80 miles out of their way, if they happen to be a half hour late coming in, they have to go around through a larger office and this Coulter one is quite popular. I think too that our Indians should probably be playing a bigger

part in our Tourist at traction. These people have fairs, pow wows throughout the summer, and I think with the Department of Tourism assisting them with some professional advertising and some good planning that these could be successful and we could be giving our natives of Manitoba a good shot in the arm. Now getting back to the problem that exists with the people that are leasing land from the Provincial Government for lodges, I think that the situation here should be reviewed.

I don't know if any of you are familiar, but the leases are from a day to day basis I believe -o r year to year I should say - and they're on a fee of one percent if you're in the bush and two percent if you're close to a dirt road and three percent if you're close to a highway, and when I said these percentages I should have mentioned that this is on the gross income. Now I understand that the department insist that these people submit 26 times a year, which is once every two weeks. Now I've been told that some of them have to bring in accountants to do this job for them.

They may be submitting $200. 00 to the Provincial Government in a year, but it has cost them up to $1, 000 to have the submissions made by their accountant or bookkeeper, and they feel that the situation should be eased for them. I don't think that they have any quarrel with the percentage fee, they quarrel with the fact that the submission is too often, and maybe once a year or twice annually would be enough.

I kind of agree with them in this particular area because, as I said, if they had to pay out $1, 000 to collect $200. 00 for the government, it's not very fair to the operator; he has enough expenses as it is . There is another thing I think the way of leasing must be reviewed because I understand - and if I'm wrong, you may correct me afterwards - that these people that maybe invest any where up to thirty, forty or 50 thousand dollars on a piece of land, if something went wrong they could be off that piece of land and lose their entire investment.

It would be returned to the government and they in turn could sell it to someone else and this man could be out in the cold. So with the present setup there have not been any new lodges built in the past five years. Now I want to compliment the Minister and his department for the coloured prestige book let that we have here. I think that they've done a lovely professional job and the pictures are tremendous in it.

I've always been interested in photography and I think the photography is excellent, but I wonder - take this page, I think that's a horse and that's a cowboy - it doesn't have any explanation of what we've got in Manitoba; it doesn't say there's a rodeo in Dauphin; there's a rodeo in Swan River; it doesn't tell us anything -- (Interjection) -- It's a steer? Well, it's some kind of animal. Someone says it's the Minister standing on his bead. However, harness racing- it doesn't say where the harness racing is, it says there's harness racing in Brandon. I understand there's harness racing in Winnipeg too.

One of the biggest sources of revenue for the Government in Manitoba is not advertised in here - horse racing. I think that all this space that is here could have been used in big type, we could have explained who's place this is or who's town this is in, things like that. But, as I said, it's a lovely job of photography. I'd like to sum up what I was getting at in the area of tourism that I believe that we should have the one central office to do the advertising and I think that we should be promoting in the U. S. and Europe as well. I notice that Quebec are very successful in their tourism promotion.

They're about the only province in Canada that are promoting in Europe, in London and Paris, and they're promoting in the States too in Chicago and Minneapolis. I think that we should be following along, possibly following along this line as well. I also believe that we should be promoting personalized groups for speaking engagements outside of our province to sell the province for its tourism.

I think that our private resorts as well as the government ones should be advertised a little because in this particular facet we are running competition to these fellows and these people have a lot of money invested and they're maybe not getting their fair share of the tourist dollar anymore insomuch as the government have charged a very small fee to get into our parks , which I think is fair, but it makes it a little rough on the private investor and maybe we could help him out by doing a little advertising for him.

I think that one other thing we should be considering is that nowheres could I find a sug gested tour in any of the travel agencies of Manitoba. We've got some real interesting things and places and cities to see in Manitoba and I think that the department should be working on

13 18 February 23, 1967 (MR. DAWSON cont'd. ) • . . . . that immediately to set up a tour - visitors want to come to our province to have a look at say Flin Flon, Churchill or Winnipeg, wherever they want to go - there should be these suggested tours and there should be a pamphlet ready to go. Now I think that in the field of recreation that we haven't made the strides or the gain!3 that we should have in that particular department as well, and I'm very disappointed in this.

I don't mean to infer that the staff are responsible, but I believe that the lack of leadership and some of the policies that the government has had are. accountable for this. I think from its inception in 1960 the Fitness and Amateur Sports Department in Manitoba has really lagged. We should be taking a good example from Saskatchewan and Alberta in this particular area; they've taken advantage of the full generosity I should say of the Federal Government which in most cases is 60 percent of the provincial government spending.

I think that this department probably would have been a bigger department because I am told by a member in this House that should a certain candidate running in Emerson have been successful on the government side, he would have been - or he went around saying he would have been Minister of Recre ation. Maybe this might have been a good thing, I don't know, because I think we need some thing like that.

If you read in your report that we have here, there are 14 communities that hire full time recreation directors, and under the student aid it mentions that 40 of these people had received loans and many have graduated and accepted positions. Now it doesn't say where they accepted positions, but I know that only 14 were hired in Manitoba and 40 graduated, so it looks very much like we're following the old familiar pattern; we're training people with our tax dollars for other provinces. Why can't we be using these graduates right here in Winnipeg -- I shouldn't say Winnipeg, in Manitoba.

Are the jobs not available for these guys? Why can't we set these graduates up like the Department of Agriculture have set up the Agriculture Representatives? These physical education people could be a big asset if they were spread throughout our province rather than centred here , the four or five that we have, sitting in the City of Winnipeg in one centre. I'm sure that they could be helping the towns and the villages within their own areas and they could be providing recreation for all ages. Now Saskatchewan has followed this plan and it's very successful.

They have a man stationed in a town and he may work a radius of 35 to 50 miles and he's at the call of that particular area. He's not there to run the programs for them, he's there to assist and guide, something like what you're try ing to do from Winnipeg here, but they're more successful. The Minister mentioned the type of leadership conferences that you've been having at Gimli. I think that possibly these are a good thing but I don't think we're getting the right type of people at them. I've noticed that the people in most instances are young persons who take the course.

They graduate from Grade 12 probably and they want to take this course, the town sends them to the course; the boy takes the course -o r girl - takes the course, comes home, finishes off the rest of the summer until university starts and they're gone. To. them selves they've picked up a good course, but to the community that sponsored them they are no asset, and I wonder if maybe we should be thinking of changing the system of obtaining the type of people that go to them, that they should either be older or be returning to their own centre .

The other type of leadership conferences that - this is the specialized type that the government has been sponsoring people to go to - I think are not a fair deal for ,the rest of the people in this province, because if a man comes from a centre -I won't mention any one particular centre -b ut if a phys ed man, we'll use the Town of Dauphin as an example, and gets a special course lasting anywhere from two to six weeks and he goes down there at the expense of the Provincial Government or of the Manitoba taxpayer and not at the expense of his own area, he returns and the only place he's working is still in this one centre.

I don't think that we should be sponsoring that type of a deal; I think that we should be sponsoring things that will benefit everyone in Manitoba. I think too that the department is admitting that they're not making the steps that they should and they really haven't got their program off the ground. I believe that this program is the only one that 's still receiving 60 percent to offset the staff's wages.

I thought that this was put in at first, the 60 percent was first put in to get the program off the ground and 60 percent was allocated for sta ff wages, and I think that Manitoba is the only one still taking ad vantage of the 60 percent to offset the wages. Another thing too is that I wonder why the recreation depar.tment is not more closely as sociated with the education fitness program that we have in our schools. It seems to me that we're running cross purposes in many instances. We have a phys ed man in a school and he's

February 23, 1967 131 9 (MR. DA WSON cont'd.) . . . • . c.nly available for �he students that are in that school and for x number of hours a day and he's finished his job like a school teacher. I wondered if the man couldn't be somehow, some way, he couldn't be tied into the town and working for everyone in the town and p.ot just the students that are going to school. MR. CHAmMAN: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I'd Like to begin my comments by congratulating the Minister on this particular booklet here which he placed before us a few days ago.

I take a great interest in the annual reports and the production of government documents as they come before us because I once wanted to be an advertising man and I never achieved that particular goal, I became a politician instead. I would say that this particular booklet is superb in terms of its photography, its quality of paper, its Layout and design. I think this is the kind of material that we should give out. I know it's expensive. I don't know whether we're going to learn of the actual cost of this booklet but I think it,'s absolutely tops and it's the kind of Level at which we should operate.

I think this sort of thing is needed. I hope that the Minister will take it upon himself in his new career as Minister of Tour ism and Recreation to promote this province also from within, and I think we can take an interesting page out of our current publicity on our licence plates which refers to fun and games. I think that this is the kind of a way we should sell our own province. For example, one of the things that most interests me is the Centennial Centre that we're building on Main Street opposite the Winnipeg City HaLL, which is for all of Manitoba although of course it's located in Winnipeg.

Some of you will shortly learn how interested I am when we go through a promotion that is being carried on throughout the city and members of the Legislature as we ll will be asked to support the club of the century which is a Centennial project in which Pm personally very interested. I was a bit disappointed on a minor point about this particular piece of literature that I couldn't really see any reference to the new Centennial Centre com plex.

I noticed the beautiful ballerina, etc. , but I didn't see any indication that there is a grand complex being built - I think one of the finest in North America - but that's really I sup pose a minor omission. I hope that the -- and I must say as I'm speaking that I'm speaking as an individual primarily. I'm not promoting party policy but I'm simply speaking as a person who is very interested in athletics and was very active in athletics, in fact still is as a tennis player and bowler, etc. etc.

The community clubs I think are an area that the Minister should really look into very carefully because I notice that the newspapers these days are full of tales of economic woe. I notice for example in a newspaper - Monday's Tribune for example this week - that the Earl Grey Community Club is facing a shutdown over a hydro bill of only a few hundred dollars. This is a club that provides facilities for 2, 000 children in a ball hockey tournament; they have a jam pail curling tournament for 1, 000 children and so on.

I think the community clubs throughout Manitoba are doing a splendid job but they all seem to be in economic difficulty. They aLL seem to be short of staff. I think they have the ideas; they have the motivation; they have the wiLLing personnel but not enough - not enough people and never enough funds. I think the Minister should give some serious thought, since he's opening up a brand new department, to possibly giving some sort of basic grant to community clubs.

I don't know- it's a can of worms - it's a complicated problem but maybe there should be a foundation program for community clubs too, something to cover their basic costs like hydro, etc. , etc. Maybe a thousand dollar grant to each club would -- it wouldn't be very much but it would certainly be a help. Another thing about community clubs which I think are of great interest and of particular concern to the question of recreation, they are geared to boys. If you look at a typical com munity club program, they're geared to boys.

The average club appeals to young hockey players and young baseball players, 6 to 16 , but the girls I suppose just sort of mill around and admire the boys or watch the boys playing hockey. I remember when I played hockey for Norwood Falcons one time there was a huge collection of girls that used to hang around the club aLL the time. A MEMBER: They were watching the others. MR. DOERN: It's a great club but we didn't have a very good hockey team, probably be cause I was on it. MR. DESJARDINS: You say there were lots of girls around? MR.

DOERN: Very attractive ones too, many of them French-Canadian as a matter of fact. -- (Interjection) -- They're normal too. So I think that this is one area the Minister

1320 February 23 , 1967 (MR. DOERN cont'd.) . . • . . should seriously consider, helping the co=unity clubs, guiding the co=unity clubs and looking at their program, because - and I take this on the advice and the information of friends of mine as well who really are well acquainted with t�is - and they say flatly they're geared to boys. Now I think this is true from my own experience as well, that they have hockey, lacrosse, soccer, baseball, etc. I don't know what the girls do at co=unity clubs other than attend dances.

Now l asked a few questions earlier on the Pan American Games and this is an area that really interests me and I'm just starting to get involved in the machinery because I happen to know some of the people involved, and at the risk of reciting my achievements which I won't other than to say that I was the Provincial Champion Shotputter in high school and came second in Canada in the shotput and discus . . . . · MR. DESJARDINS: Is there anything you can't do? MR. DOERN: I can't embalm people, that's the only thing I can think of.

I also saw for example the 1960 Olympics in Rome so I'm really keen on track and field. It's my major interest and I intend to voluntarily do some work for them. Now just recently - a month ago I went to Chicago for a brief holiday when we had our recess and I went around and tried to drum up some publicity for Pan Am and I succeeded. For example, I got on to a radio show from N. B. C. on thirty-eight states and so on and so on - I won't go into the details - but I was quite surprised at the lack of publicity that the Pan American Games have down there.

Now I know somebody will say, "Well this isn't our business, they have their budget" and so on, and I agree that's true, but we have a responf'!ibility and you have a responsibility to encourage people to come to Manitoba and we have a tremendous draw in the Pan American Games. When I was talking to some Americans I said, without knowledge - and you know in a well intentioned way, not trying to anticipate anything- I said, "You know, you just wait a few months and there's going to be all kinds of billboards all over Chicago. " This is what I said, you know, to a couple of friends of mine in Chicago.

Then I come back and I talk to some people from the Pan American Games Society, find out they have a totally inadequate budget, find out they're hardly going to do any advertising, and so on. They're going to leave it to people who are going on junkets and are going to pass out little pins. Well this isn't good enough. Let's not depend on the odd patriotic citizen to take six pins from the Pan American Games, walk around an airport and say, "Come to Winnipeg," and then say, "I hope you read this thing and I hope you wear the button. " That's amateur and we have got to operate as professionals.

We've got a tremendous draw and I don't want this thing loused up in the sense that we use an inadequate budget and we depend on circumstances and on chance. That's not good enough. So I would suggest very strongly to the Minister that we should have billboards down there; we should have some paid advertising. I know we're going to get publicity; I know it's going to be free - lots of it - but we should also pour money in there. I'm thinking particu larly of Chicago and Minneapolis and I know there's an accommodation problem. I know we can't say, "Come on up. We've got room for you and seats for you.

" We haven't. But the thing is let's really beat the drum and then when people find out or write and find out they can't get tickets or that there's no place to stay, fine, they might come up next year; they might come up after the games. But let's tell them about it. Let's not say last year we had the Pan American Games here because that's what some people think is good. That is good, but it's not good enough. Let's give it to them before the games come and if there isn't room and there isn't seats, fine.

But they will know where Winnipeg is and every record that goes into the Pan American Games goes down as "Set in Winnipeg." Some were set in Mexico City; some in Sao Paulo, Brazil; some in Chicago. Winnipeg is going up into the international sports arena. In fact I think some day -I guess we'll never get the Olympics unless our city goes to three million - but who knows, maybe a hundred years from now we'll have the Olympics here and it will be things like this that prepare the way.

Now in regard to tourism, one of the things I think we're really falling down on in Manitoba is on the preservation of our historical monuments. Now I don't know how many historical monuments we have but I do know there are some places. For example here's the Free Press, Saturday, February 18t h, "Is York Factory Facing Oblivion after 275 years of history?" There are places up north around Hudson Bay that are I think possibly great tourist attractions. They're expensive to get there and so on but apparently they're just falling apart. And you can go all over Manitoba and it's very hard to find historical sites.

My honourable friend and colleague from Seven Oaks, he lives in a constituency where a great battlewas fought,

February 23, 1967 132 1 (MR. DOERN cont'd. ) . • . . . and there's a monument there. What a monument! Better than nothing but how unexciting and how dull in some ways . A simple cairn of rocks marking a great battle. And now I just thought of another thing which I wish to .. MR. CAMP BELL: It wasn't really a battle. MR. DOERN: No? What was it ? MR. CAMPBEL L: A massacre. MR. DOERN: A massacre - fine. A massacre is a kind of battle. Now the other thing is -- something that really occurs to me at this moment is Louis Riel, and if we go into St.

Boniface and we go and look at the grave of Louis Riel, I'm ashamed in the sense that here's a simple marker in front of the Cathedral and to me that's not good enough. It's simply not good enough. I think this was a great man and a great patriot and I would like to see a suitable monument, not-- I think whoever put that monument there did a good thing, but if all Manitoba can come up with is that small marker in front of the church in honour of one of the most famous men, however controversial, however rash he may have acted, is that all we've got?

As we look around our Legislative Buildings, a statue of Queen Victoria - fine; a statue of Taras Shevchenko - fine; a statue of Bobby Burns - fine. Where is Riel? And where are the other great patriots of Manitoba? Where is a statue to Miles Macdonnel? Nowhere. Very little. Well we're failing there and I think this is one area we should consider looking into.

Another point that I would like to bring up in regard to tourism is on our recent trip to The Pas, which I think was really tremendous, I think that -- the main idea we went of course was to open the schools in the region, but fortunately the festival was on and fortunately we went up there. I happen to have been up there before but never at the festival.

I really enjoyed the festival and I thought that that sort of thing, that sort of trip should be made more frequently to other festivals and so on, that we should visit some of these places, preferably when there is actual government business to do but even for the sake of going and seeing certain places and certain festivals. That's good enough. That's sufficient reason. While I was up there I talked to several people who were selling Indian handicrafts and I learned that there is a store in Winnipeg.

In fact I recently joined the YMCA and I noticed the Last few nights they now have a little display where they show Indian handicrafts which are also sold at the Y. Now apparently there is a store somewhere on Donald Street - I suppose off Portage Avenue- but this summer, this summer there's going to be thousands and thousands of tourists coming to Winnipeg and coming to Manitoba, American tourists with lots of money and they should be buying thousands and thousands of dollars worth of Indian handicrafts and they will, providing we merchandise it, providing we make it available.

So I say to the Minister -- I don't know, we get into the intricacies of financing and so on - how about looking at opening up some stores on Portage Avenue or putting stuff into some of the retail stores ? How about some of these empty stores right on Portage Avenue that could be rented for even just a one-month period while the games are on - say a week before the games, two weeks of the games and a week after - and let the Indians and Metis go in there with their handicrafts, set up a big operation and you'll sell thousands and thousands of dollars worth.

You'll make all kinds of money- of course they'll make the money presumably or the government can take its percentage. -- (Interjection) -- Well, as a matter of fact I might try it myself. Do you want to go into business? Not all of us are just opposed to free enterprise; we're only opposed to certain elements and certain kinds of it. We're not just blanketly op posed to it. MR. DESJARDINS: Wait until Russ gets a hold of you. MR.

DOERN: Now, I'm sure the Minister is well aware of the fact that if he wants in formation on historical sites there is a -- and I notice one of the members, perhaps the Honourable Member for Hamiota, was talking about setting up a committee . I don't think that's necessary. I belong to the Historical and Scientific Society of Manitoba. They've gone back to 1869 - they're 100 years old and they'll supply you with all the information on which sites should be preserved and which sites should be developed. I don't think we need to set up a committee.

I think we just have to go to the Historical Society and certain other places. They know where it is; so does the government .. The question is are we going to spend money on it. That's really the question. Is it worth it or do we feel it's - you know, of value; I think that's the question. We know where they are and we know roughly what should be done. And I think we don't do enough in that regard. Another brief thought- and this is of course of value to tourists, it doesn't really help the government very much - but something that the Honourable Minister might consider, and

13 77 February 23 ; 1967 (MR. DOERN cont'd.) . . • . . this of course is bringing in the Ottawa scene, is how about a tax free store at the Airport where people can buy tax-free goods they can take back. I mean, this might be a natural for Montreal but let's face it, I like to think that we can fight Montreal, we're fighting them on Air Canada and so on. This is the idea of the free port. I don't know whether the free port means the entire city or just the store. I'm just thinking of a store. I'm not thinking of Winnipeg or Manitoba or anything like that, the whole cities or towns.

I'm think ing of one store at the Airport, a disembarking point, etcetera. -- (Interjection) -- Or the trains, right; or the buses. This would help people. We don't make money on it but it's sort of a service. We make the room, the board and so on, but you know- it's useful - it's done in Shannon, Ireland and maybe Hong Kong, etcetera, and in other small centres; Montreal perhaps. -- (Interjection) -- I can't afford to go to Honolulu. MR. DESJARDINS: It's the only place you haven't been. MR. DOERN: Once you've seen St. Boniface, you've seen the world. And going to a final point on our own province.

I think the peopte within Manitoba have to be sold on seeing their own province. Now I'll give you a typical example: I think that the average person who lives in Winnipeg, for example, he has seen the Falls; he's been east and he's gone to the lakes and he's been as far as Kenora, which is just into Ontario, and he's been to Portage la Prairie and Brandon; and then when he was going to the States he went to Emerson and he thinks that's Manitoba. He thinks if you draw a tine east and west of Winnipeg and south that's Manitoba.

He doesn't know- in fact he's been to Selkirk for a hotdog -o r he's been to Grand Beach or Winnipeg Beach, but he has never seen Rob tin, and Russell; he has never seen Churchill or The Pas and so on. I think that the people who see these places tend to be businessmen or salesmen, but how many people make a trip and go and see the Port of Churchill, for example, or go driving up in the northwest or the northeast or how many people really even go on Lake Winnipeg other than the beaches ? Not very many.

So at the risk of coining a phrase and devising a new campaign, this is really the old "See Manitoba First" idea; see your own province first, and I think we really fall down here. We realty fall down. Now we have attractions, and we just saw the Trappers' Festival. Well I think thousands and thousands of the people should go to the Trappers' Festival - and I think they would if it was promoted more. As I understand an advertisement- I think the Honourable Minister of Welfare would know this -I think the government gives them $1, 000 or something. Well, if that's all that we give them, that's peanuts.

Maybe we shou ld consider giving them a little more money; let's really advertise The Pas. Let's drag and attract people up north. Our own people to go and see their own province. Now we have other things: The Flin Flon Trout Festival - I've never seen that. We have the Morris Rodeo and so on. How many people have seen that. Then we have one at Souris; we have one at Swan River. Out in Austin they have a museum, etcetera. I've never seen that. But I've been to Europe and I've been to the States. I will say this in terms of Manitoba ... MR . CHAIRMAN: I wonder if the honourable member would continue his speech.

MR. DOERN: I'm now concluding. I intend to go to Churchill this summer. I was try ing to take the train but I don't. know if I'm that tough, but if I can take it I'm going to take the train. No

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	28-1-56
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	28th 1st hansardpdf 56.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	f31e9dcaa20095d46654722dff3d95183f518ea0

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).