VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF' 'ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. TUESDAY, DECEMBER 9, 1980 NO . 75 ~

~ December 9, 1980 Tape No. 2759 SD - 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair .. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. SPEAKER: MR. OTTENHEIMER: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. OTTENHEIMER: ahead. AN HON. MEMBER: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. OTTENHEIMER: Order, please! STATEr-1ENTS BY MINISTERS The hen. Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker. Hear, hear. I think I will sit down while I am I will second that. Oh, oh!

As members are aware, the Government of Newfoundland has taken a number of s~eps to protect and make known its opposition to the unilateral and unconstitutional proposals of the federal government with respect to the Constitution of Canada. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR.

OTTENHEIMER: I wish today to table in the House of Assembly copies of the questions to be referred to the Court of Appeal of Newfoundland with respect to the resolution and proposed amendments to the Constitution of Canada presently before the federal Parliament and a copy of the brief that was submitted to the Foreign Affairs Committee of the House of Commons of the United Kingdom. So there are two documents to be tabled, the first being the questions referred to our Court of appeal, and I gave a copy of this to the Leader of the Opposition and the hen. member for Grand Bank (Mr.

Thoms), in fact the last two pages on this Ministerial Statement, they are attached thereto; and the other document, which is the brief presented by the Government of Newfoundland to the Select c,ommittee on Foreign Affairs of the United Kingdom Parliament, will be distributed in the next couple of minutes. 7378 ~

' . December 9, 1980 Tape No. 2759 SD - 2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: The first three questions to be referred to our Court of Appeal are in the same terms as those presently before the Court of Appeal of Manitoba. These questions ask the 6ourt to give their opinion on the potential effects of the proposed revision to the Constitution with respect to federal/provincial relationships and the present powers of the legislatures of the provinces. In addition, they ask the Court to give its advice on the constitutional conventions with respect to the amendment of the Constitution of Canada.

In addition to these three basic questions, the Lieutenant-Governor in Council of New .foundland has referred an additional question with respect to the potential effect of the proposed amending formula upon the Terms of Union, specifically upon Terms 2 and 17, which relate to the territorial integrity of the Province and the denominational education system respectively. As well, the question also asks the court what the effect of the proposed amending formula will be upon

Section 3 of the British North America Act,

Section 3 provides for the amendment of the boundaries of a province by Parliament with the consent of the province affected. The Newfoundland Department of Justice,or Crown,will argue affirmatively with respect to these four questions. The brief submitted to the Foreign Affairs Committee of the House of Commons of the United Kingdom was submitted at the invitation of that Committee. It is important to note that the Committee restricted written evidence to "The Role of the United Kingdom Parliament in Relation to the British North America Act". The government submitted this brief to the Committee on December 3rd.

The brief outlines the history of the current controversy and points out that at the end of the 7379 ~

December 9, 1980 Tape No. 2759 so - 3 MR. OTTENHEIMER: First Ministers ' Conference in September,a significant degree of con sensus was arrived at with respect to most of the matters on the Constitutional Agenda. Included in this area of consensus was general agreement among the provinces, Qu ebec re serving, with respect to the broad outlines of a domes tic amending formula entitled the "Vancouve r Co nsensu s" . The brief points out the very significant fac t th at at no time did the federal government advance any proposals with respect to an amending formula and, indeed, intimated during th .e Summer -long discussions that a proposal 73AO -:

December 9, 1980 Tape No.2760 EL - 1 MR . OTTENHEIMER: susceptible to a provincial concensus would receive a favourable response from the federal authorities. The brief further notes that one of the four fundamental aspects of the constitutional position of the Government of Newfoundland was that a new constitution could only be arrived at by the process of consensus.

Indeed,the Government of Newfoundland's White Paper stated,and I quote from that document, "Flowing from the commitment to these principles is the government's conviction that a new constitution 1 reflecting the realities of today, can only evolve from the process of consensus. -The Govern­ ment of Newfoundland believes that unilateral action by any of the partners in the federation is totally unacceptable.

To succumb to the temptation of unilateral action would have the effect of creating greater divisions within the Nation -· ---- --. than now exists and of frustrating ~~e aspirations of all Canadians who look to the process of constitutional reform as a means of strengthening and unifying the Nation." The Brief points out that the unilateral and unconstitutional action of the Federal Govern­ ment has been challenged by six of the Provinces containing a majority of the population of the country and that the matter is now before the Court of Ap~e~l in Manitoba and will be placed before the Courts of Appeal of .;rewfoundland and Quebec.

We advised the Committee that it should recognize Canadian constitutional conventions, spec­ ifically the fourth constitutional convention contained in a paper entitled "The Amendment of the Constitution of Canada" published by the Federal Government in 1965 under the name of the Honourable Guy Favreau, Minister of Justice, and I quote from that document and will point out that that document also 7381

"-• December 9, 1980 Tape No. 2760 EL - 2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: was referred to and approved by the Supreme Court of Canada in 1979 in the Senate Re­ ference Case. "The fourth general principle is that the Canadian Parliament will not request an amendment directly affecting federal-provincial relationships wi.thout prior consultation and agreement with the Provinces. This principle did not emerge as early as others but since 1907, and particularly since 19.39, has gained increasing recog­ nition and acceptance.

The nature and degree of provincial participation in the amending process, however, have not lent themselves to easy definition." The Government of Newfoundland has advised the Committee, the Foreign Affairs Committee of the UK Parliament, that it is its opinion that the failure py the Parliament of Canada to observe this important con­ stitutional convention is fatal to any request by it to the Parliament of the United Kingdom. We are, of course, pleased tpat recent evidence given to the Committee by Dr. Geoffrey Marshall a professor of Oxford University, has ~upported thi~ proposition.

We have further advised the Committee that as a result the United Kingdom should decline to act upon this unconstit­ utional request, because if it did so it would be seen to acquiesce in the performance of an unconstitutional act and would be intruding into the most fundamental aspect of the Constitution of Canada, the federal system itself. We also advanced the proposition that while this matter is before the highest Courts in the Province that the United Kingdom Parliament should decline to act.

We have also advised the Committee that the authority it holds over the British North America Act is an authority which it holds in trust, not only for the Federal Government of Canada, but rather for thefederal 7382

December 9, 198D Tape No . 276Q EL- 3 MR. OTTENHEIMER: system of Government established by the Fathers of Confederation, as strengthened over the years. Th e brief points out that the entrance of Newfound ­ land into Confederation was predicated on the continuation of the federal system. I have every confidence that the Parliament of the United Kingdom will act properly with respect to this matter and will view its role as a truste .e for the federal system of Canada as we understand it to be. It is, of course, unfortunate that the Government of Newfound ­ land has to present its 73f\3

December 9, 1980 Tape No. 2761 DW - 1 MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: objections to the Parliament of the United Kingdom and has found it necessary to pursue this matter through the courts. However, we feel that we are left with little choice as the proposed amendments undermine the basic nature of Canada and have the potential of affecting the most fundamental aspects and institutions of Newfoundland.

I believe that we will be successful in defeating these proposals and we anticipate that once the federal government recognizes that this is the case that it will then proceed to negotiate constitutional change in an honest and forthright manner. This material will be distrib­ uted, the Ministerial Statement, and,as I say 1the last two oages, the two pages attended to it are,in fact, the ques­ tions which are being referred to the Newfoundland Court of Appeal; and distributed simultaneously will be a copy of the brief submitted by the Government of Newfoundland to the Committee of the U.K. Parliament.

That will be distributed to members and to the press. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. L. STIRLING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. What we see here is another step in the ongoing anti-Ottawa campaign.

The CBC programme Sunday norning probably added the missing piece to this puzzle·i.n an interview with Joe Clark, the Leader of the Opposition, who was discussing his strategy for retaining his leadership when he said it was a question of whether or not they would accept what, in his opinion, was the wish of 90 per cent of the people of Canada 1 or would they set about as a political strategy to change public opinion. 7384

December 9, 1980 Tape No. 2761 DW - 2 MR . L. STIRLING: The truth of the matter, Mr. Speaker, is that the PC's across Canada have made the decision that they are going to stop and change - MR. w •. ~ARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! A point of order has been raised by the hon. President of the Council. MR. w. MARSHALL: Statements of ministers, in my understanding, Mr. Speaker, are made and there are comments to be made on tlrem,but it is not to be the sub­ ject of a wide-ranging debate, particularly one not relevant to the statement made by the hon. minister. \ MR. J.

HODDER: TO the point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: TO the point · of order, the hon. member for Port au Port. MR. J. HODDER: I do not think there is a point of order here, Mr. Speaker. The member was re­ sponding to the statement in the normal fashion on the contents of the statement. MR.

SPEAKER: In view of the fact that a point of order has been raised it will give me an opportunity to point out to hon. members that with respect to responses on Ministerial Statements, 'A member responding is entitled to •ask explanations, make a few remarks but no debate is then allowed.' It is further the practice of this House that any member responding to a statement may use approximately half the time used by the minister in presenting his state­ ment. I bring that to the attention of all hon. members. The han. the Leader of the Opposition. .MR. L. STIRLING: Thank ypu, ~~. Speaker.

I would refer to the opening sentence, Mr. Speaker, in which it says, 'As members are 7385

December 9, 1980 Tape No. 2762 NM MR. STIRLING : aware,the government o~ Newfoundland has taken a number of steps to protest;and it i~ completely in order, Mr. Speaker, and it was simply typical of the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall); every time that you hi~ a nerve he uses a point of order to get you off th .e subject,. MR. WARREN: Right on. 1 MR. STIRLING: The truth of the matter, Mr. Speaker, is one of the,steps being taken is that there has been an agreement by the people of Canada that they would like to have this go through.

It has been accepted, ninety per cent of the people would like to have constitutional change. MR. BARRY: Who said that? MR. STIRLING: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. FLIGHT: HR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. BARRY: campaign ." MR. SPEAKER: Joe Clark. Hear, hear: · Joe Clark. Your federal leader. Order, nlease! (Inaudible) a million dollar propaganda. Order, pleas ·e ~ MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, as the Minister of Energy (Mr. Barry) knows, they know very well the cost of a political propaganda campaign because they are now buying full page ads to undertake the same stunt. MR. FLIGHT: The same. MR. STIRLING: Now, Mr.

Speaker, let us deal with the Ministerial Statement that I have not been given an opportunity to do because of interruptions and points of order from the other side. The truth of the matter, Mr. Speaker, and it should not be lost, that this fourth political question that this government 7386

.1- ecember 9, 1980 Tape No. 2762 NM .,. 2 MR . STIRLING: voted against, this political question that deals in their view with . th.es:e two sacred issues, we brought in an amendment which would not permi~ the constitution to be changed without the consent of this House and that government side voted against it. So they are playing politics, Mr. Speaker, playing politics right from the beginning.

Andthis is one more step, and I do not think anyone is being fooled by it and I believe that the truth will come out when the court case goes through its normal process and we get on with patriating the constitution of Canada and in the next two years make some real changes that we want in Newfoundland, the kinds of changes that talk about the poor, o-ld Min ·ister of Transportation (Mr.

Brett), who does not have a nickel in his budget and requires ninety per cent funding from DRER, a purely unconstitutional process, and when the constitution gets home and we make the changes so that we can have a meaningful and working constitution in Canada, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (S 'imm s) : Environment. MR. STAGG: Hear, hear! ' Further statements? The hon. Minister of the The Leader of the O~position (Mr . Stirling) hopes we lose the case. HR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. DAWE: But you want your money from DREE. Order, please! · The han. Minister o~ the Enviro~ent. Mr.

Speaker, in keep~g with my duty and desire to inform the members of this han. House concerning matters related to the protection of the environment, I wish to sneak about the recent proclamation of the Environmental Assessment . - . Act and what this means to our Province. 7387

....... December 9, 1980 Tape No. 276 2 NM..,. 3 MR. DAWE: The Environmental Assessment Act is a major item of legislation. It is the most far-reaching statute ever passed oy this hen. House in tne area of environmental protection and resource management~ This Act has changed government's whole approach to the making of major decisions affecting the use of our natural resources and the health and well-be-ing of our people. I am very honoured that the administration of this impqrtant new Act has been placed in my hands as Minister of the new Department of Environment whose formation was announced by tne hon.

Premier some weeks ago. The proclamation o£ the Act means that the proponents of a wide variety of resource development projectsf programmes and related activities are now required by law to register their proposal _s with my department before proceeding with the final design phase of those proposals, and well.in advance of seeking any permit or approval which they may require from any level of government. Each proposed undertaking will be examined to determine whe .ther the proponent is required to subject his proposal to environmental, assessment. 73Ci8

December 9,1980 Tape No. 276.3 AH-1 MR.DAWE: For those han. members who may be unfamiliar with the term environmental assessment the process is simply the assessment of a proposed undertaking from an environmental point of view. In other words, it may be regarded as an environmental feasibility study, comparable in some ways to an engineering feasibility study or an economic feasibility study.

The assessment is conducted by the proponent according to specific terms · of reference approved by my department. - The proponent bears all costs .and assumes the responsibility for all work performed for him by any consultants whom he may engage for this purpose. Another teim which will soon become familiar to us all, is environmental imoact statement. This is the report produced by the proponent following the environmental assessment, and submitted to my department for evaluation. The environmental impact S:tatement contains several kinds of informati .on.

In it, the proponent first describes his proposed undertaking and states the need for it in terms of present and future demands. He then describes the environment in which he proposed to establish the undertaking. The next two sections of the i:mpact s~tatement are of upmost importance, for it is there that the proponent predicts the environmental impacts of his proposal and makes a commitment to take certain actions, called mi tiga ti ve measures, to enhance the bene£icial impacts and to minimize the harmeful impacts wherever possible.

Any predicted harmful · impacts which will remain in spite of all reasonable mitigative measures are known as residual impacts ;and th .ese · must be clearly identified and acknowledged by the proponent. In the final

section of the impact statement che proponent must propose a specific programme of activity tomonitor the 7389 -

·...:....._ December 9,1 980 Tape No .. 2763 AH-2 MR.DAWE: the impacts of his undertaking during i't.s construction and operation phases, in order to verify the accuracy of his predictions and to ensure adequate protection of the environment. When the -environmental inpact • statement has :Oeen submitted to my department, . it is -reviewed and evaluated with the assistance of an assessment committee represen .ting all interested departments. of government.

I'f f:t £s found to meet the terms of reference f i.t is then my duty to make- a report to tM hon. the Premier and my colleagues in Cabinet containing advice and recommendations concerning th.e environmental acceptability of the . proposed undertaking, I must hasten. to poin .t out 1 Mr. Spealter, that the interests of the public are also re .cognized and address·ed throughout : the environmental ., assessment proc .ess..

Tlie first indication of this is our definition of the word "e:nvironment" wi.thin. the Act 1. which in turn determines tlie scope of tha assessment. wa have. l included not only the natural environment which we all think of when we hear the word; but we have broadened the definition to include the immediate environment of the people whose lives may be affected, for better or for worse, , by the proposal in question.

This means that the proponent's impact statement must address pertinent issues related to social s-tructure, economic conditions, historic and cultural background, population numbers and distribution, facilities and services, and so on. 73 ~0

December 9, 1980 Tape 2764 E.C - 1 MR. DAWE: As partof the assessment, the proponent is required to conduct a public information exchange program within the proposed development area. Once again, this must conform to a procedure approved by my department as part of the terms of reference. At the same time, my officials will establish contact with local civic officials, community leaders and special interest groups in order to determine whether any serious concerns exist regarding the undertaking in question.

If a serious issue should arise, particularly if related to human health, welfare or safety, which appears to be unresolvable by any other means, there is a provision within the act for the appointment of an Environmental Assessment Board to conduct public hearings into the entire matter of the proposed undertaking and its environmental implications. In addition to all this, virtually eyery document produced during the course of the assessment will be available for viewing by the public. Mr.

Speaker, the requirements of the Environmental Assessment Act apply equally to government depa,rtments and private interests. Th.e list of undertakings which must be registered for examination encompasses the general headings of: Agriculture; Forestry; Mineral and ~etroleum Development; Manufacturing Industries; Building Construction; Transportation; Communications; Utilities; and The Public Administration of Natural Resources.

Until the requirements of the act have been met, no provincial government department, no municipal council and no other local authority may issue any licence, permit, approval or any oth .er form of authorization for any proposed undertaking which is subject to registration. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 7391

l ;. • December 9, 1980 Tape 2764 EC - 2 MR. DAWE: The act is quite explicit on this point and there are no exceptions. My department will be conducting an information program to ensure that local authorities and the business community are made aware of the requirements and provisions of the act. Questions concerning the environmental assessment process may be directed to me or my officials at any time. The stated purposes of the act may be paraphrased as follows: To facilitate the wise management of our natural resources and to protect the environment and the quality of life of our people.

I hope that in this brief statement I have shown the hon. members ' how this is to be accomplished. I believe, Mr. Speaker, that this government by instituting the Environmental Assessment process has taken a fresh approach to decisions on resource use and environmental protection. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DAWE: In this way our Province will continue . to benefit from worthwhile resource development and, at the same time, retain in large measure those qualities which are so important and so dear to her people. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER (Simms): The han. the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, it was rry understanding that Ministerial Statements were something new that came into the House, and something of public importance. I am completely amazed in that what the minister has done is he has taken the Environmental Assessment Act,which we debated in this House and it was proclaimed last year, and gave us a run-down on it again. 7392 ~

December 9, 1980 Tape 2764 EC - 3 MR. HODDER: Now, th .e former Minister of the Environment _ last year when the bill was brought into the House and when it was summed up in this House, gave. the exact same information on this 7393

t December 9, 1980 Tape No. 2765 SD - 1 MR. J. HODDER: particular bill and the minister has given us nothing new. I thought, Mr. Speaker, that it had been adequately explained before but this minister must have felt that the other minister did not actually explain the things to the people of Newfoundland or that we were too stunned to understand what it was about . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh. MR. J. HODDER: But I will say, Mr.

Speaker, about the legislation itself is that the legislation has exempted too many groups in the Province; they have exempted the paper companies, the mining companies, government projects which were ongoing - Hinds Lake, Upper Salmon 1 these have not been touched-and anyone who seems to have been doing any work in the Province before has not been affected by this environmental legislation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. HODDER: So the only thing that I can put this statement down to is the · fact that the minister would like to get a little more mileage from the bill that was brought in last year. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPE~ER (Simms): Order, please! MR. HODDER: But the question I have to ask, Mr. Speaker, is - I would ask the minister - is what about the companies that are getting ready for the offshore, the DAC grou~s and the various other companies at the present time? MR. S. NEARY: They have got their spokesman over there on the other side. MR. HODDER: Are they presently conforming to the legislation? And also, Mr. Speaker, since this legislation was brought in to t.he House and proclaimed six or seven months ago 1 I wonder how many companies and 7384 -:

December 9, 1980 Tape No.2765 SD - 2 MR. HODDER: how many undertaking have taken place in this Province, how many of those undertakings has this legislation applied to and how many companies and/or groups in the Province are presently complying with this particular legislation? MR. SPEAKER (Simms} : Any further statements? Before proceeding to Oral Questions, I would like to make reference to the point of order raised yesterday by the hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary} arising out of a comment made by the hon. the member for St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter}. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER: After conducting a great deal of research and having had the opportunity to review yesterday's Hansard, the exact quote used by the hen. the member for St. John's North was, "The megafool is over there, Mr. Speaker". Now, in offering advice to me on this point of order,it has been suggested by some hon. members that the word 'fool' is unparliamentary - MR. NEARY: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER: - and therefore, of course, 'megafool' would be a million times unparliamentary. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR.

SPEAKER: But may I say that Webster's Dictionary does not define the work 'megafool,' However, the prefix.: •mega• means large or great; thus it could then be interpreted . - ~ - -- - as 'the large or great fool is over there, Mr. Speaker'. But I must say that the word 'megafool' at first hearing does not sound all that bad,but certainly great fool does not sound very parliamentary. And I think the way to clear this up is to rule that in this circumstance the use of the word 'megafool' appears to have been used in the context a large or great fool and in this way it is therefore unparliamentary.

So I would ask the hon. member for St. John's 7395

December 9, 1980 Tape No . 2765 SD - 3 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): North (Mr. Carter) to withdraw his remark and that will dispose of the matter. The hon. member for St. John's North . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. 7396 ~

December 9, 1980 Tape No. 2766 OW - 1 MR. CARTER: Certainly, Mr. Speaker, I am in your hands in matters of this sort. But I would like to point out that it is not my intention to underestimate the members of the Opposition and certainly the member for LaPoi1e (Mr. s. Neary), ~nd

whereas it is unparliamentary to call a per­ son a fool I would suggest that a million fools have a great deal of intellig~nce among them and therefore ·it· could per­ haps be construed as a complement. However, I accept your instruction and withdraw it. ~· SPEAKER (Simms): I understand the hon. membe.r has withdrawn. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. L. STIRLING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I cannot resist saying that we have now created a new word, ~·nd the person wh9 created the word would be the best example of it. Mr.

Speaker, the question that I have is for the Minister of Mines and Energy. (Mr. Barry). As he knows 1 there was a telegramsent by 500 workers in the WabushMines who had been told because of a power outage in Seven Island which closed down the pellet plant that these people are going to be laid of:f.on December 15, I wonder if the Minister of Mines and Energy c;:an indicate -- -- ·--, whether or not he has answered the telegr~ and whether he intends to go to Wabush to meet with the union members there? MR . SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energ y . 7397 -::

December 9, 1980 Tape No. 2766 DW - 2 MR. L. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I left a note for I ~ my secretary to respond to the texex. The telex was sent to the Premier, the Premier asked me to respond, and basic- ally what I have said is that from our discussions with the Wabush Mines officials, as of mid-day yesterday there was some question as to whether there would be any lengthy shut-down. Initially it was thought there would be a couple of weeks shut-down. The company gave the notice because under its collective agreement it has to give a week's notice before shut-down.

It gave the notice so as to have the option of shutting down if this became necessary. But more recent information indicated to the company - for a \'lhile they thought that the work on the transmission line could be completed during this week and avoid any shut-down at all; it now appears, un- fortunately, as though the work will continue on into next week but that it may be only a matter of a couple of days. In which case, Mr. Speaker, there would be no longer a shut-down than it would take to have the trans- mission line from Wabush Mines to Pointe Nair back in operation.

There was about five miles of transmission lines affected by the sleet sto~, about eighteen towers damaged, and it is estimated that it should not take much more than a week to have the repairs affected. And as I say, in that event there would be no lengthly shut- down and I would ask the union officials, Mr. Lhedee who sent the 7398

December 9, 1980 Tape No. 2767 EL - 1 MR. BARRY: telex, I have suggested that we wai .t until the beginning of this coming week and see what the situation was at that time and, of course, we will be happy to meet with union officials if there is in fact a problem to be dealt with at that point in time. MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Leader of the Opposition. MR. S·TIRLING: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the. hon. the Yes, Mr. Speaker, I was speaking '$ith Mr.

Luedee~,the Un:i,on Presi.dent,just moments be£ore coming into the House,and typi.cal of the way tha .t the people in Labrador City - Wabush !;lave been treated is that when he then checked this info~ation that was included in the telegram with the management people,they did not know any­ thing about it.

And that the instruction is still that there . will be a shutdown on December 15th .• 'I wonder if the minister would undertake that if his information is correct,that they are essentially only talking about a two-day shutdown and layoff,to prevent the confusi.on that now exists up there, would he urge the company to stock­ pile for those two or three days and to continue in full operation? MR. SPEAKER: 'rhe hen. the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, first of all we are aware of what the local .management has been indicating to the union leadership and our information has come from the head office of the company in Montreal 1which I believe had more recent information than the manager on site in 7399 "0

December 9, 1980 MR. BARRY: time. Tape No. 2767 EL - 2 Wabush might have had at the Mr. Speaker, any reasonable man 1 and I stress the reasonable man would appreciate that in a job of this nature one cannot predict to the second when the repairs are going to be completed.

But all we can go upon are the most reasonable, and I stress reasonable estimates given to Wabush Mines management by Hydro Quebec and we have no reason to disbelieve the information which we have received from the head office, Wabush Mines in Montreal,to the affect that initially they expected, they thought the repairs might have been completed this week, that it now appears that they may go on over for an extra coupl.e o£ days. Now, the last part of the question? MR. STIRLING: It was would you ask the company, if it is only a couple of days,to stockpil.e and not lay people off. MR.

BARRY: As far as the stockpiling is concerned, Mr. Speaker, there is a problem that,as the Leader of the Opposition may know, it gets a little chilly in Labrador and in Pointe Noir this time of year and the 7400

December 9, 1980 Tape No. 2768 NM- 1 MR. BARRY: problem is with the wet concentrate freezing,and this is the reason why they cannot just continue to stockpile at Pointe Noir continue in operation. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: and have the Wabush Mines mill Make some more fun of me. We ar.e not laughing at the hon. gentleman. We are laughing at the member for Humber West (Mr. Baird}. We set a bad example for him . He is tearing up his Ministerial . Statement over there. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, if stockpiling were feasible then the company would not need any writ from government to carry out that. It is in the company• -s interest to sell pellets and to make dollars, and 1Mr. Speaker, they intend to do that. We will stay in close contact with the situation. I have instructed my officials to remain in close contact with the Wabush Mines management and to do whatever has to be done to get as short a shutdown as possible and to keep the Wabush Mines operation going as long as possible. MR. S'l'IRLING: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER (.Simms) : of the Opposition. MR.

STIRLING: A supplementary, the hon. Leader Yes, I am aware that the Minister of Energy (Mr. Barry) seems to be much more concerned about the comfort of the concentrate because it is a bit too cold for the concentrate to be out in the open. I am concerned about the comfort of the people who will not have a job, who will be laid off, who on the eve of Christmas are in a situation where there is conflicting information.

Now why cannot this government take a firm stand and say th:at; if you are only talking about a couple of days,then get off this nonsense about cannot store concentrate because it i·s too cold for the concentrate - AN HON. MEMBER: That will not go bad. MR. STIRLING : - and make sure that this operation 7401

.. December 9, 1980 Tape No. 2768 NM - 2 MR. STIRL'ING: continues and that these people get over this very uncertain feeling that there is in that whole area, that they do not know what is going to happen, that they are now making plans to g.et out for Christmas and get back for Christmas and there is just utter confusion. And the minister, by suggesting that he is deal~g with the head office,is not really adding to the conclusion of the situation.

Now will the minister untake; one, to contact the local management if he knows somethi:ng they do not know; and two, ask them, since he is only talking about a couple of days, to continue that operation in full operation and show concern for the employees in the Wabush area and not just the concentrates. MR • ''i'ARREN: MR. SPEAKER (Simms)·: Energy. MR. BARRY: Uncertain government. The hen. M'in~ster of Mines· and Mr. Speaker, naturally all of us on this side o£ the Hous ·e hope that we are going to get some pet concentrate for Christmas. What nonsense! What nonsense - SOME RON •. MEMBERS':' MR.· BARRY: ~.

Stirling}. goes on with. Oh, oh~ - the Leader of the Opposi:ti.on Mr. Speaker, I have received no request for clarification from the Leader of the Wabush Onion with respect to my texex. MR.· FLIGHT: MR.'.· BARRY: clarification. SOME' BON'. MEMBERS: MR. BARRY: you just did. I have received no request for You just did. I do not accept, I am afraid, Mr. Speaker, any hand-me-down, second-hand requests from the Leader of the Opposition. 7402

December 9, 1980 Tape No. 2768 NM- 3 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! ~ MR. BAlmY: If the .union leader of the wal:lush MinP-s has a request for information ~ MR. STIRLING: He wo1,1ld have to go directly to God. MR. BARRY: rf the union leader has a request for clarification 1he knows that we have open doors . in this government. 74 03 -:

December 9,1980 Tape No. 2769 AH-1 SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: He knows that we are always accessible to union members or to any other member of the public. MR.SPEAKER (Simms): :t4...R.BARRY: Order, please! Mr. Speaker, he knows it was not like the days gone by when in order to get access to a minister you had to just about chop down a door in the Confeder~tion Building. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.BARRY: Mr. Speaker, this is an open government here. I am prepared to discuss any matter with the union leadership in Wabush that they might wish to discuss.

All I need,is a telephone call. a telex, whatever they want to send to me. And I believe, Mr.Speaker, that the telex I sent indicating that the bes.t ~nformation we had was that the shut-down would not be very long,that this has been acceptable to the union leadership or else th .ey would have contacted me again. MR.NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR.NEARY: Mr. Speak.er. The hon. member for LaPoile. Mr.

Speaker, my question if for the - I do not know if I am in turn or out of turn - my question is for the Minister of Transportation (Mr.Brett) and it has to do with the controversy that arose re.cently concerning the highway through the campus of Memorial University. As hen. members know,it took several dozen accidents and a fatality involving a young girl ·from Port aux Basques to focus attention on this very serious problem. 7404

Decenber 9 , 1980 Tape No. 2769 AH-2 MR.NE11RY: Bon. members also know that there was a plan back in the late'60s and the early'70s to build a road, an outer ring road from Portugal Cove going right up 1 by-passing the road through the campus of Memorial University. What has happened to these plans? Could the minister give us an updating on whether or not this administration,after they took over,pursued the matter of eliminating a highway through the campus and building this road that was proposed back in the late'60s and the early '70s? MR.SPEAKER (Simms): The bon. Minister of Transportation. MR.BRETT: Mr.

Speaker, there were all kinds of plans several years ago. There was the harbour arterial and the cross-town arterial and the outer ring road and I think there were even more than that. Some of them have become a realit y, as the hon.member knows, the harbour arterial and th e crosstown arterial;and the outer ring road . is probably the next one that should go. That is still very much the plan of this government and I suppose the plan of city council,but again it is all a matter of dollars and cents.

But I think the hon. member's question is very timely because we did a survey on the harbour arterial last Summer and discovered , I think to everybody's amazement,that there is something like 43,000 cars a day using that road. And we all saw what happened when we did have the accident on the-Parkway and the road was closed; the city was almost tied up. And things are really reaching - I do not suppose I should use the word a cr£sis in the city,but I can foresee in a couple of years three years that if we do not have the outer ring road then it is going to be very difficult to get to work in this city. 7405

December 9.! 19.8 0 MR.NE¥Y: MR. SPEAI<ER (.Simms) _: for LaPoile. MR.NEARY: Tape No. 2769 AH-3 Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A supplementary. The hon.member Mr. Speaker, that is hardly an answer nut I suppos :e I have to accept it. I will probably put i:t down . for the Late Show this afternoon. I want to ask. the hon.gentleman a supplementary about the dangero,us conditions of the highways. And I had some ~ personal e~perience yesterday, Mr. Speaker, and that is why I am asking the hen. gentleman about the hazardous ~ conditions of some of these . highways.

When I "~orent home yesterday evening I was- greeted by four screech~~g children; their mother was lugged offto the hospital in an ambulance,and my je .e.p wrecked as a result of no sanding or salting en th .e Portugal Cove Road. And my hen~. friend just drove in from St. Mary"s and did not meet one sand truck or one s-alt truck out sanding the Trans-Canada Highway on a day like~ this when it is so treacherous.

Could th .e hen. gentleman tell us when he . is going to wake up and do some.th.ing aD.out the sanding of highways in this Province that a,re caus.ing numerous accidents- insurance claims piling up as a result of negligence - salting and sanding especially around the . time of day when the sun is going down and you get that black ice on the highway - MR.MARSHALL: A point of order. MR. SPEAI<ER: Order, please! A point of order by tlie hen. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: The hen •. gen.tleman' s inferences from tlie answers to the question may be interesting, Mr.

Speaker, but they constitute a speech and this is Question Period. MR. SPEAKER: I would ask the hon. member to put his question. I believe he has had a fair enough

preamble. 7406

December 9,1980 Tape No. 2769 AH.'- 4"'. MR. NEARY: What I am asking the non. gen .tleman is .whep is he going to wise up, Mr. Speaker,, and get the sand trucks out,especially around the time of day when vou have water on tfie highway and the sun iS. going down and you get that black ice on the highway when most accidents · occur? MR.SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation. 7407 =

I ...... - ~·"-- .. December 9, 1980 Tape 2770 EC - 1 MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, Mr. Wick Collins would be very happy to know that at least one person in Newfoundland reads his column. I see that he has provided some questions for the Opposition. MR. NEARY: I had an experience yesterday. My wife almost got killed on your highway yesterday. MR . BRETT: Mr . Speaker, the first part of the hon. member's question, he said he did n0t get an answer to his first question. Well, I thought I explained that the Outer Ring Road was very much a part of this government's plan and also city councits.

Now, I think I said that very distinctly and very clearly. The second part of the hon. gentleman's question,'When are we going to start salting and sanding the road?' Now, the Opposition keep on asking that question as long as we have freezing temperatures, as long as we have rain and then the temperature drops below freezing, and .it is physically impossible to salt and sand every

section of every road, it just cannot be done. Now, I realize we do not have the second shift on, and in my opinion, it is not necessary to have the second shift ·on. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BRETT: But the type of weather that we are getting is just impossible to cope with. I mean, it takes a certain amount of time to get from point A to point B, and obviously, between these two points, while the trucks are travelling, there is going to be ice • It will always be like that and there is nothing we can do about it, absolutely nothing. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary. MR.

SPEAKER (Simms): A final supplementary, the hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is talking about the time limit -the time element. 7408

, . ~ December 9, 1980 Tape 2770 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: Well, let me explain to the hen. gentleman that this accident I refer to occurred between 5:00 o'clock and 5:30 yesterday afternoon on Portugal Cove Road, involving my wife. I left here, went to the Stadium, ~ went up to my home on Portugal Cove Road, came back to the hospital, went back to my home on Portugal Cove Road and no sand trucks.

Now, how can the hon. gentleman explain that and blame it on the fact that 'Oh, we do not have staff enough and we do not have trucks enough or equipment enough.' The hon. gentleman is making too many excuses and there are too many accidents, too many injuries and too many deaths in this Province. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman is making a speech.

If the hon. gentleman is dissatisfied with the response given by the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Brett), there are proceedings under the rules or he can give notice to Your Honour and debate it at the appropriate time in the proceedings. The purpose of this particular stage of the proceeding is to ask questions, Mr. Speaker, and he is abusing the rules of the House by making hysterical comments and speeches like he is doing . MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, to the point of order. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the hon. the member for Port au Port. MR.

NEARY: If the hon. the Government House Leader - MR •. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. the member for Port au Port. 7409

December 9, 1980 MR. HODDER: for LaPoile. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Tape 2770 EC - 3 I yield to the member To the point of order, the hen. To the point of order. If the hen. the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) had the experience that I had yesterday 1 and literally hundreds and hundreds of .Newfoundlanders are having every time thereis a snowfall, the hon. gentleman would not be raising a specious point of order in this House, he would be getting after his colleagues to try to do something about these conditions. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MARSHALL: rules, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: Hear, hear! That is an abyssmal abuse of the Oh, oh! Order, please! I would grant you that I have not had all of the experiences of the hon. member and neither would I wish to have them, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: The fact of the matter is you can cloak any point of order you wish to in whatever emotional fashion you wish to make a speech, but the purpose of this particular proceeding is to ask questions.

If the hon. gentleman is dissatisfied with the answer 1 he can debate it at the appropriate time as provided by the rules. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: With respect to the point of order, I believe there is a legitimate point of order in this case. The hon. member also was being argumentative in his question. I would point that out to him and bring it to his attention. I assume that the question has been asked, and if the 7 41 0 "

December 9, 1980 Tape 2770 EC - 4 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : hon. the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Brett) wishes to reply, fine. MR. NEAR.Y: Mr. Speaker, if I can save a life I will be argumentative or anything else in this House. ~. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: But I want to ask the han. gentleman when he is gqing to put on MR. SPEAKER: MR;. NE.ARY: MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! - to put on the second shift? Order, please! I think I have ruled that you have asked the question. If the. hon. the Minister wishes to respond. SQME:.__BQN___._:_ ~:ERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR.

BENNETT: The hon. the member for St. Barbe. What a coward! What a coward! Order, please! A supplementary; Mr. Speaker. My supplementary is directed to the Mini~ter of Transportation and it relates to Corner Brook, O'Connell Drive. The people of that area,where they have 400 children walking across there four times a .day, are very concerned. Last year, I understand, they were .denied an underpass for that area, but it was agreed that they were to have a lighted crosswalk and to date there is no sign, or apparently there is no lighted crosswalk in existenc .e.

Will the minister tell the House if there is any progress in this direction? MR. WARREN: No progress. 7411

December 9, 1980 MR. SPEAKER (Silllms): Transportation. MR. BRETT: Tape No. 2771 EL - 1 The han. the Minister of Yes, Mr. Speaker, the lights were sent to St. John's by truck, I thi.nk it was some ti.me last week so I would assume that they are i.n the process of installing them now or if they are not they should be. MR. BENNETT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR •. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. member for St. Barbe. MR. BENNETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I was in Corner Brook over last weekend and I had a couple of telephone calls and people are displaying grave concern because, like the han. gentleman here says, it is sli.ppery now. If those lights ·, Mr. Speaker, were to be installed by the opening of school,which was September, will the minister tell us if there is a penalty clause built into . these contracts when they are let so that it would speed things up? Is there a penalty clause built in the contract, in any of these contracts? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Trans- portation. MR. BRETT: No, Mr.

Speaker, there is always a delay in -not necessarily a delay, but there is a time factor, I suppose. Some people are of the opinion that if you want traffic lights,you pick up the telephone or you write a letter and you sa~·~ my two sets of traffic lights.' Well, it does not work that way. There is mech­ anical - it depends on the distance between various lights - the thing has to be made up for the time sequence and it usually takes about six months from the time you order these lights until they arrive. So, you know, there was, 7412

December 9, 1980 Tape No. 2771 EL - 2 MR. BRETT: in this case, I do not think they are to be installed by the contractor who built the road. I think this would be done by our own officials and there certainly would not be any penalty. There was some delay in ordering the lights in the first instance and that was because government had to make a decision a·s to whether or not they would go with an overpass, an under­ pass or crosswalks with the proper traffic lights, and when the decision .was finally made then, of course, the lights were ordered. MR. B~ETT: MR. SPEAKER(Simms): member for St. Barbe.

A final. supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary, the hen. MR. BENNETT: I wonder, Mr. Speaker, if the heR. gentleman would tell us when those shifts, the two shifts, will go on for winter snow clearing? MR. SPEAKER: The hon ·. Minister of Transport- ation. MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, that is another question that I have answered at least on one or two occasions. MR. NEARY: When everybody is either in Hospital (inaudible) • MR. BRETT: There is nobody can pin down a specific date as to when the two shift system would go on. It depends on - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

BRETT: - it really depends on the weather. At this point in time, we feel that probably sometime in Jan­ uary we would take on the second shift anyway but - MR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER: We need it now. Order, please! 7413

December 9, 1980 Tape No. 2771 EL - 3 MR. BRETT: Well, in the opinion of some of the members of the Opposition that might be so,but in my opinion it is not so. If we were to take on the second shift now,what it wou~d mean is that you would have people lying around possibly for the next two months whQ would - SOME HON. !1EMBERS : Oh, oh! MR.SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! MR. BRETT: - have nothing to do. So, all I can say, Mr. Speaker, is that probably sometime in January, but it pretty well depends on the weather. MR. F. ROWE: MR. SPEAKER: Bay de Verde. MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker. The han. member for Trinity - Mr.

Speaker, is the Minister of Transportation and Communications aware of the fact that in, for example,the Heart's Content depot that they have a grader that is broken down, a snow plow that is broken down, and a backhoe that is broken down. They only have one truck to serve the area from Whiteway to sibley's ~ave and the whole of the Heart's Content barrens road to the Carbonear Hospital? And if he is not aware of it,what. does the minister intend doing about it. MR. SPEAKER: portation. MR. BRETT: The han. the Minister of Trans- Yes, Mr. Speaker ..

Every morning when I come into my office I pick up the phone and I first call Clarenville and then Corner Brook and then Deer Lake and I find cut how many trucks are broken down and how many graders are broken down. This is utterly ridiculous·! No, Mr. Speaker, I do not know and there is no particular reason why the 7414 -:

December 9, 1980 Tape No . 2771 EL - 4 MR . BRETT: minister should know because I have staff around the Province who are quite capable of looking after these things. SOME HON. MEHBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HANCOCK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Sirnrns) : The hon.mernber for St.Mary's..-The Capes. HR. HANCOCK: r-~r. -·~ ,I oo not · :telieV-e what I .am hearing hear this afternoon. MR. HANCOCK: •· I made it a point this morning to go and speak to the foreman in my area, Mr.

Speaker, about the road conditions there and he informed me that if we get this snow continuous for at least another day, another twenty-four hours, they have not got the personnel to cope with it. You can only just work the men so long. I ask the minister to implement another crew on his shift and to check with the people. He checks with Claren- ville and Gander and Corner Brook - MR. WARREN: He does not check with my district. MR. NEARY: He should check with the grave- yard and the hospitals. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh~ MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please; Now, the Chair will have an ex- treme amount of difficulty in trying to rule on any points of order that might be raised here today because I cannot hear anything. I will ask the hon, members please to res- train themselves so that the Chair at least can hear what is being asked and whether the questions and answere are being put appropriately. The hon. member for St.Mary's - The Capes has a question. MR. HANCOCK: Well , it is a job, as you were 7415 "':

December 9, 1980 Tape No.2772 SD - 1 MR. D. HANCOCK: saying yourself, Mr. Speaker. I would ask the minister if he would consider hiring on an extra crew before the 15th of January depending on the weather conditions we have been having up until no~ MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) : The hon. Minister of Transportation. MR. C. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, I already indicated just two minutes ago that if it became necessary to take on a second shift,then that would be done. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The han. member for Eagle River. MR. E. HISCOCK: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to know what necessary means , but my question to the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Brett) is to do with the Harbour Arterial Road where the opening took place several months ago and the lighting of that Harbour Arterial Road is still not in place. Could the minister please inform us when it is going to be in place? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation. MR. C. BRETT: That questions is certainly of the upmost importance to the people of this Province. Mr. Speaker, I understood that the lights on the Harbour Arterial Road were turned on just a couple of days ago.

Now I cannot be absolutely certain of that,but I understood that they were turned on just two or three days ago. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. T. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I want to put a question to the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) re the statement that he made in the House yesterday in which he \ acknowledges for the first time that the Premier did promise to create 40,000 job~ . -40,500, as a matter of fact-over the next five years.

The minister is aware that - or let me first of all ask the minister with respect to these statistics where he said that we averaged 9,500 jobs a month, would the 7416 ~

December 9, 1980 Tape No. 2772 SD - 2 MR. T. LUSH: the minister tell the House whether or not these are new jobs or whether they are the result of total employment in the Province in the period from January until October? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Manpower. MR. J. DINN: The hon. Minister of Labour and Mr. Speaker, I would like to inform the han. member that all of these jobs are new jobs in that they we·re not there the year before. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. J.

DINN: And I gave the hon. member statistics for all of the months of this year and compared them to last year and am delighted to say 1by the way 1that the latest Statistics Canada statistics that came out just this morning, hot off the presses 1indicate that our unemployment rate is down this year by 2.3 percentage points if you want to look at the actual figures. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. DINN: If you want to look at the adjusted unemployment figures,they are down 3.9 percentage points. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. DINN: Mr.

Speaker,if you want to look at the actual figures as they compare to other provinces in Canada, hon. members opposite will be disappointed to hear that they cannot claim now that we are the lowest province in Canada because our unemployment rate is 12 per cent versus PEI which is 12.5, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. DINN: And to get right to the nub of his question, the answer to his question is, yes, all of the jobs are new jobs, they did not exist last year and they do exist this year 1 so they are new jobs. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. T. LUSH: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 7417 ':"

December 9, 1980 Tape No. 2772 SD - 3 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Supplementary, the hen. member for Terra Nova. MR. T. LUSH: Would the minister please inform the House as to whether these statistics are really the numbers of people employed or whether they are new jobs created, because there is a distinct difference, whether these statistics are the numbers of people employed or whether they are new jobs created? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. J. DINN: Mr. Speaker, I would expect a better question from the han. member opposite .. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh. MR.

LUSH: I will tell you tomorrow on the Late Show. MR. DINN: Re usually has very clear-cut questions and they usually have some ~!~~~b~l~ty to them, but that question just has not credibility to it at all. Last year we had 186,000 jobs in the month of November - MR. LUSH: How many people were employed? MR. DINN: That is the number of people that were employed last year. MR. LUSH: a job. MR. DINN: If you are employed you do not have If you are employed you do not have a job according to the hen. member. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. DINN: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. DINN: Oh, oh. This year we have 197,00. Oh, oh.

Now, I mean, if you want to compare that, that is 11,000 new jobs. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. DINN: That is done by either the new math or the old math, you still come up with 11,000. 7418

Devember 9, 1980 Tape No. 2772 SD - 4 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Right on. MR. DINN : That is 11,000 jobs for the month of November and that, Mr . Speaker, is across the Province. If the han. member wants 7419

December 9, 1980 Tape No. 2773 NM- 1 MR. DINN: to know where the new jobs were created, some of them were created in the Stephenville conversion.ana SOME HON. ~ERS: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. J. DINN: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAl{ER (SiJIIllis) : ··- -.... -- MR. DINN: and-the Hinds Lake­ SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. DINN: as it relat .ed to oil and gas. Oh, oh! Hear, hear! - sare of than were created by the hytD:o - Hear, hear! Order, please! - development, the Opper Salmon Hear, hear! - sOI!Je more would be created onshore SOME HON. MEMBERS': Hear, hear!' MR.

DINN: 900 were created offshore as ~t related to oil and gas. 400 were related to the forestry industry for reclamation -of :Oudworm damaged timber. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DINN: And, Mr. Speaker, we antic~ate now that the 400 jobs, the approximate 400 jobs for reclamation of the budworm damaged timber will treble or dou&le for next year, so the outlook is great for next year, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. :MEMSERS: Hear, hear!' MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the. .bon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, I give the hon. minister ample warning that I will be debating this in the Late Show so that he can look up the actual difference ~n the numbers employed and the numbers of new joos. He demonstrated that he does not have a clue about these statistics. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please:· We have time for about a ten second question and a five second answer. 7420 ~

Decerneer 2, 1980 Tape No. 2773 NM - 2 MR. LUSH: The ten second question is this, Mr. Speaker~ would the hon. minister indicate .. or please inform the House what the Premier was talking about when he said that 1-J.e Nas going to create 40,500 jobs;was not 40,500 new jobs, it wa.sjust taking care of the natural growth in the economy because we can take any period and find out over the last five or six years that the levels of unemployment go up by about 8, 000 and 9, 000 every year so what the Premier indeed was doin.g was taking the na~ural growth in the economy and just maintaining the status quo. MR.

SPEAl<ER (Sironis) : Order, please! The ti~e for Oral Questions has expired. SOME" BON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear: · . PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES: I.ffi. SPEAKER: The han. Minisfer of Health. MR. HOuSE·: Mr. Speaker, under the provisions of

section 37 of the Newfoundland Medical Care Insurance Act, I wish to table the Annual Report of the Newfoundland Medical Care Insurance Commission for the year ending March 31st., 1980. MR. SPEAKER: Would 'Ehe page or somebody from the table pi?k up that report? DR •. COLLINS: The hon. Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, according to

section 51 of The Financial Administration Act, r am to provide a report of the details of guaranteed loans paid since the House last sat and I now table this report. It just is one loan. 7421 "

December 2, 1980 Tape Nq. 2773 NM- 3 PRESENTING PETIT TONS: MR. SPEAKER (S'imms): MR. HISCOCK: The bon. ~~er for Eagle River. Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a pet~tion on belialf of the residents of Pinsent A~ 1 Labrador . This is a small community located twelve miles from Charlottetown and they are ~a~~g another request to this Province to have diesel generators, if not diesel generators. then to have a transmission line or a power line from Charlottetown into Pinsent 'Arm, a distance of twelve miles. There are eleven f~ilies included in that community. They have a fish plant.

Th .ey have got funds from Canada Works as well as from the Depar~ent of Fisheries of thi·s Province and also from the Rural Development of this Province. It is now an area for collecting salmon, herring and cod; as well it is a good area for trapping. The point is now, Mr. Speaker, they have to use their own individual generators and as a result they cannot have any equipment there to get an ice making machine. They employ at least fourteen to eighteen people in the Summer for a period of four months, or three and a half months.

I would like to ask this Houser are we in favour of supportin<;r , ,this petition or basi ·cally are we supporting the view that if the small communities like this, of eleven houses, cannot ha .ve the power line and basically we aTe forcing them into resettl~ent. That I am sure is not the . wi~h of this House or this government to get into a resettlement programme. So, Mr. Speaker, I rise to support this petiti·on of twenty-ni:ne names of Pinsent Arm and r hope, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr.

Barry) - ..... .. - in t.lu.s g.overnment will see fit to have eleven miles or twelve miles of hook up and give them power. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 7422

Decanber 9, 198 0 Tape No. 2774 ow - 1 MR. SPEAKER, (Simms) : The han. member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: I will yield if the han. gentle- man wants to support the petition. Well, I am just going to say a few words in support of the petition on behalf of the - I believe that is about 100 per cent - MR . HISCOCK: Yes. MR. NEARY: Is that the voters or the residents of Pinsent's Aim? MR. HISCOCK: Voters . --- MR. S. NEARY: -voters of Pinsent's Arm, atout eight or ten families, I guess. MR . E. HISCOCK: Eleven households. MR. BARRY: Customers. MR. S. NEARY: There are no customers now.

They all have their own separate generators, as my hdn. friend said. BR. BARRY:t You need a minimum of fifteen. MR. S. NEARY: A minimum of fifteen? Mr. Speaker, with ahat kind of policy who is it that talks about trying to force people to resettle? Who is it, Mr. Speaker{What this government is doing is trying to force these residents of Pinsent's Arm to resettle. How badly, Mr.

Speaker, must these people feel when they hear this government talking about billions piled up on billions of dollars, repealing of the water rights of the Upper Churchill, transmission lines, the Anglo-Saxon route, putting the gears to this one and that one involving millions of dollars, and all these people are asking about down in Pinsent's Arm are just a few paltry dollars so that they can have a central generating unit, a central generating plant to hook up their homes so that they can have something that everybody else in the world, in the free world practically , takes it for granted, and that is electricity. 7423

December 9, 1980 Tape No. 2774 DW - 2 MR. S. NEARY: It is a shame, Mr. Speaker. It is hard to comprehend, Mr. Speaker, in this House in this day in age when we hear the government talking about coloured photographs of the Premier, flags and that sort of thing,that you have people who do not have electricity. If they do have it,they have to generate it themselves. MR. E. HISCOCK: bring industry' there. MR. S. NEARY: Tne government should help them. That is right. And they have a fish plant down there,as my hon. colleague indicated.

It has the potential of a thriving community, a thriving indus­ try, they are very enterprising, Labradorians. And I think the government should seriously consider the prayer of this petition and give these people the generator that they are asking them for down there, - MR. E. HISCOCK: Or a power line. MR. S. NEARY: - or a power line involving a few thousand dollars. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Any further petitions? The hon. member for St. Mary's - The Capes. MR. D. HANCOCK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise to present a petition on behalf of the eighteen families who live on a dirt

section of road in the community of Gaskiers in my district. They are not greedy people by no means, Mr. Speaker, they are just looking for upgrading, not even paving at this time. Apparently, a few years ago the road was turned over to the council andX- number of dollars was given to the council to maintain Summer maintenance and Winter maintenance on that road. There is not enough money and the road is in a deplorable condition. And the residents are upset that the bus has to travel over this road and pick up students and take them to school. 7424

December 9, 1980 Tape No. 2774 DW - 3 MR. D. HANCOCK: Like I said, Mr. Speaker, they are not looking for pavement, all they want is upgrading. And they are calling on the government at this time, if they can spend $100,000 on flags and thousands of dollars on the Premier's mug being pushed up in public building,then at least consider handing some more money over to the councils or let the Department of Highways take the road over and maintain it the way it used to be in the past, Mr. Speaker. Like I said,the road is in a deplorable condition and something has to be done about it.

The residents of the community are very upset es­ pecially at the approach that has been taken by this government with regard to the roads in their area. And I whole-heartedly support the prayer of the pe .ti tion, Mr. Speaker. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it gives me great oleasure to support the petition so ably presented by ~y desk buddy here, the member for St. Mary's - The Capes (Mr. Hancock) on behalf of his constituents in Gaskiers. Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that everything in this Province outside of oil and gas is deteriorating.

The government are concentrating all their efforts on the offshore oil and neglecting every­ thing else. The road programme that was started by the Liberals back in 1950 after Confederation is stalled~ you would no~ know but everything was done in Newfoundland, that we ~ no more roads to upgrade or no more roads to build or no more roads to pave. All they can think about is oil and nothing else! And here we have an example of what I mean, Mr. Speaker, from these residents of Gaskiers who are asking to have their road 7425

December 9, 1980 Tape No. 2775 EL - l MR. NEARY: upgraded. And I will bet you, if you saw that road, the condition of that road today - how many children go over that road in a school bus - MR. HANCOCK Fifty-four. .MR. · NEARY ; Fifty-four children going back · and forth two and three times a day over that road in a school bus,.. whose lives are endangered every ·time they go over the road on a day like today. Mr. Speaker, the graveyards of this Province are going to be full of victims of the government's incompetence. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

NEARY: And the hospital beds will be filled because of their callousness, not because of the workers, Mr. Speaker, the workers are doing the best they can, but they cannot cope. And the minister is refusing to put on a second shift and to give the field workers the resources that they need to see that their jobs are done as is in- dicated in the prayer of this petition. As I say, Sir, the graveyards are going to be full of victims of the incompet­ ence of this government and I hope, Mr. Speaker, that my hon. friend will get his wish that the people of Gaskiers will get their wish.

All they are asking for is upgrading, not paving. They are not asking for paving, like I saw over on Bell Islai).d, down to a gun installation. They are asking for paving to their homes. And so I support the - MR. HISCOCK: He is laughing at it. MR. NEARY: The han. gentleman thinks that is funny, over there like a laughing hyena, funny. A road leading to nowhere, down to a cliff! And here you have these people looking for upgrading, not paving, upgrading of a road to their community. I support the prayer of the petition, 7426

December 9, 1980 Tape No. 2775 EL- 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, and I hope that the citizens of Gask..iers get their. wish.. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!" ORDERS OF THE DAY Motion, the hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing to introduce a bill, entitled, "An Act To Amend The Municipalities Act."(Bill 88) On motion, Bill No. 88 read a first time, ord.ered read a second ·time to.morrow,.

On motion, the· hon. the Minister of Education - introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Education Teachers' Pensions Act (Bill NO. 2) On motion, Bill No. 2 read a first time ordered read a second time on tomorrow,. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act Respecting Juries And Compensation of Jurors In the Supreme Court Of the Province And Compensation For Certain Witnesses In The Courts Of The Province.• (Bill No. 67) member for Grand Bank. MR. THOMS: Debate adjourned by the han.

Thank you, Mr .• Speaker • yesterday when I adjourned the debate I was speaking in connection with the bill as far as it deals with

Section 8 or this particular act. Mr.Speaker, I am sorry that the Minister for the Status of Women is not in her seat this afternoon because this is a bill that will certainly test her metal. It will certainly determine 7427 ~

December 9, 1980 Tape 2776 EC - 1 MR. THOMS: whether or not she truly believes people should be treated as people, persons should be treated as persons or whether it is just a hypocritical line that we get. As I said yesterday, the thrust of this particular bill is to take women out of the class where they are second-class citizens. At the present time, women in this Province have an option. By virtue of the fact that a woman is a woman, she can opt out of jury duty. This act takes away that special status, that special privilege that is afforded to women in this Province.

I agree that that special status should be eliminated. I do not believe that women should be second-class citizens under any circumstances. So that is what is supposed to be the main thrust of this particular bill. But, Mr. Speaker, what is hypocritical about this bill is not that it takes women and makes them first-class citizens, makes them equal with everybody else, but that it takes the senior citizens, that it takes those of sixty-five years of age and over and creates and makes them second-class citizens, because they are now put in the same position as women are right now under the laws of this Province.

A man or a woman under this particular act can now go in and simply by virtue of the fact that he or she is sixty-five years of ag .e or over, can get an automatic exemption under this act. Mr. Speaker, you know, we are taking these senior citizens, we are giving them - they can still serve if they so wish, but that is exactly the principle that we are eliminating under this act as far as women are concerned.

They will no longer be able to go into court and say, 'I am a woman, therefore I want to be exempted from jury duty.' Now, a man or a woman can go in and simply say, 'I am sixty-five years of age, I want to 7428 -=

December 9, 1980 Tape 2776 EC - 2 MR. THOMS: be exempted,' and a judge has no choice but to exempt them. These people are now under this act, this administration - the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) , the Minister of Education (Ms Verge) who we are led to believe is the great one for women's rights; well, now, how can she vote for this particular piece of legislation? How can she vote for it? I would like to hear what she has to sa¥ on this particular matter. MR. NEARY: She is only interested in abortion, boy, and divorce. MR,.

THOMS: Because if it is not fair and if it is not equitable for . women to be able to opt peremptorily out of the act 1then neither . is it right and proper that a person of sixty-five years of age have a right. I mean, the act says that•every person who is a Canadian citizen resident in the Province and is of the age of majority has the right and the duty to serve as a j U+Or.' And here we are taking away the exemption that a woman has by virtue of the fact that she is a woman and giving it to those sixty-five years of age. Why not treat the person who is 7429 -=

•. .. ~ December 9, 1980 Tape No. 2777 SD - 1 MR. L. THOMS: 65 years old.-I mean, one can only think that this administration believes that at 65 years of age a person should be put out to pasture. I am surprised that they did not go all the way and disqualify them because of age. I am surprised that that did not happen. But the person, Mr. S~eaker, of 65 years of age in this Province he is not looking for a special status as far as serving on a jury is concerned, he is not looking for any special status, he is not asking to be made a second class citizen.

And this is the argument that the Minister of Education (Ms. L. Verge) and her friends in the Status of Women argue for, they do not want to be second class citizens; therefore they want to be treated equally with men. And this is what this explanato:y note says, 'Women are also treated equally with men', but the person who is 65 years of age, he is not treated equally with the other men and .women in this Province. He is treated as something lower than the rest of us. Well, Mr.

Speaker, I am of the opinion that there are many, many senior citizens of this Province who can serve on a jury and do an adequate job of serving on a jury, just as adequate as anybody much younger than that. Now I realize that the person who is 65 years of age can under this Act serve as a juror but so, Mr. Speaker, can a woman today serve as a juror but at the present time, at the present moment, she 1 by virtue of the fact that she is a woman,she has a right to go in and say that she wants to be exempted because she is a woman.

Now a person 65 years old can go in and just simply say, 'Because I am 65 I am exempted;and the judges have no choice. And that is wrong. If it is wrong for women 1then it is wrong for senior citizens, it is that simple. SOME HON. MEMBER~: Hear, hear. MR. THOMS: You cannot make chalk out of one group and cheese out of another. What is sauce for the goose is sauce for gander, I say to the Minister of Education. 7430 =

December 9, 1980 Tape No. 2777 SD - 2 MR. L. THOMS: And if she has apy principles then she will do one of two things, she will either convince the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) and this administration to amend this Act· to eliminate that particular provision, or she will vote against it. And we will see, Mr. Speaker, which way she is going to go when it comes to a vote on this particular bill. Maybe she will take the coward's way out,of course,and not be in the House when the vote it taken; that is quite possible as well. Mr. Speaker, under the disqualification portions of this Bill,and that is the

section that deals with where a person is disqualified: In other words, these people are not allowed to sit on a jury, they cannot, they are defranchised by law,they are not allowed to sit on a jury.

And these include members of Parliament, members of the House of Assembly, policemen, officers who are employees of the Department of Justice, a barrister or solicitor - it is a little redundant in Newfoundland to say barrister and solicitor ·-- ·-- because all barristers are solicitors in this Province,but - - --- . this is the English way, where in England where you do have barristers and you do have solicitors, solicitors do not go into court, but in Newfoundland all lawyers are barristers and solicitors -a sheriff or a sheriff's officers and so on. '• ·.-.... 7431 -::

December 9,1980 Tape No. 2778 AH-1 MR.THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I could probably live with it, but I am not sure it is necessary to have every employee of the Department of Justice, every employee, whether he is the messenger boy or whatever he does in the Department of Justice precluded from serving on a jury, precluded from doing what this act makes as his moral duty to do. So we are taking everybody, everybody in these departments and we are saying, 'No, you cannot serve on a jury.' I could probably live with that although 1 like I say,I do not know if it is completely necessary. However, Mr. Speaker, under

Section V, those disqualified, it says"a spouse of any person referred to." So, Mr. Speaker, not only cannot the messenger boy in the Department of Justice serve on a jury but his wife cannot serve on a jury. She is precluded from serving on a jury. The spouse of every person in this House of Assembly, the man or wife of every - the husband or wife of every person in the House of Assembly cannot serve on a jury. They are totally barred, they are disqualified, they are not allowed. Now, Mr. Speaker, I do not believe that is necessary, I do not believe that is necessary. MR. NEARY: Hear, h.ear! MR.

THOMS: If I were a man or a woman and I were being prevented from doing what is my right and .· duty to do, to serve as a juror, I would be a little bit ~ ..... upset about that. I would be probably just as upset as the Minister of Education (Ms.Verge) and the women who make up the Status of Women in this Province, women who want this right. And they are right, they shquld ~ave it. Women should not have the right by virtue of the fact 7432

December 9,1980 Tape No. 2778 AH-2 MR. THOMS: that they are women,they should not have that right to refuse jury duty,whic~ they have at the present time, But, Mr. Speaker, I do not think that we should have a broad generali .zati-on scope like that, you know, that we should eliminate from jury duty every spouse of the people who are. listed here. In other words the Minister of Municipal ~ffairs (Mrs Newhook) 1 her husband should, I believe.,have the right . to serve on a jury. I fail to see where the minister's position could really - maybe tl).e Minister of Justice (Mr.

Ottenheimer) can tell me dif'ferently, but I fail to see where the minister's position would in any way, shape or form, any wa~ shape or form affect whether he can do a good jo.b or not as a member of a jury that is sitting out in Gander. But does the minis .ter think that we should have the right to ta:ke that right and that duty away from him simply because she is an elected member of this Bouse? I Mr. Speaker, r accidentally referred to

Section 1 V which says that • every person whO is a Canadian citizen resident in the Province has a right and a 9-uty to serve as a juror.' Mr. S.peaker r I. thi:nk it is time that - I agree here that in orde.X to ·serve ·as a juror you should be a Canadian citizen. There is no question about it at all 1 you should be a Canadian citizen. I do not parti:cularly think that some.bddy from anywhe.re else in the British. Commonwealth should be able td come into New-foundland and serve on a jury. ·Mr. S.peaker ., it is about time 7433

December 9, 1980 Tape 2779 EC - 1 MR. THOMS: that the law in this Province was changed to make sure that in order to be elected to the House "of Assembly that you have not only to be a resident of this Province but a Canadian as well. At the present time, Mr. Speaker, you do not have to be a Canadian citizen to be a member of the Newfoundland House of Assembly. MR. TULK~ could you? MR. THOMS: citizen. You could be an Australian, You do not have to be a Canadian MR. NEARY: Yes, you do, I understand. MR.

THOMS: No, you do not have to be a - ! do not want to argue with my friend from LaPoile, but you do not have to be a Canadian citizen; all you have to be is a British subject. MR. NEARY: We had to get To~ Burgess instant Canadian citizenship. MR. THOMS: You do not have to be a Canadian citizen, all you have to be is a British subject to be elected as a member of the House of Assembly, and I think it is about time that we changed that.

I do not think it would affect anybody in the ~ or maybe it would - I do not know if there is anybody in the House of Assembly at the present time who is not a Canadian citizen, but he certainly should be a Canadian citizen. Mr. Speaker, this particular piece of legislation, as well, says that 'A juror shall be deemed to cause serious hardship~' Under this act, a person can apply for exemption from serving as a juror on the grounds that serving as a juror may cause serious hardship.

And then it goes on to say that for the purposes of this paragraph, it is considered a serious hardship where a person has sole care during all or any part of the day 7434 ~

Pecember 9, 1980 Tape 277 9 EC - 2 MR. THOMS: on which the court is in session of a person who is under the age of seven years and not in full-time attendance at school. Now, the argument, of course, will be that a judge will dete:tmine what a serious hardship is. But, Mr. Speaker, what will a particular judge deem to be a serious hardship? That is the question. If a mother has two or three children in school of the age of eight or nine 'who have to come home · for lunch, will a judge consider that a serious hardship? I believe that under the Criminal Code of Canada it is a criminal offence, Mr.

Speaker, to leave a.child under the age of ten years old unattended in a home. Tha:t is a criminal offence, and well it should be a criminal offence too. Mr. Speaker, I would like to see that age raised at least to the ag .e of t~n. I would not permit a situation where a child of mine had to come home from school and have to get his or her own lunch and be alone at home. There are just too many things that could happen under these circumstances. Now, Mr.

Speaker, if a person goes into court and says to a judge, 'I want to be exempted on the grounds that my children will be home alone,' maybe the judge will say that this is a serious hardship, but then again, maybe the judge will not say that it is a serious hardship, and a judge maybe could get up on the wrong side of the bed that morning and may say, 'That is too bad.' 7435 ~

December 9, 1980 Tape No. 2780 DW - 1 MR. L. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, these are some of the things that I find wrong with this bill. The most serious one- although it means that the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) will disappear when he is sixty­ five , so maybe I could change my mind- but the most serious problem that I have with this particular bill is that it does,in fact, make second class citizens of those who are sixty-five years of age and over.

I would like to know from the minister whether or not this particular exemption was discussed with the senior citizens of this Province, whether or not they agree -maybe they do - that they should be second class citizens, that we take the women out from under being second class citizens and put senior citizens in their place. It is not necessary to have this particular exemption in the Act. Mr. Speak~r, there are others that were previously precluded and were disqualified and this Act has taken them out of that disqualification.

And that is good because as many people as possible, I feel, should have the opportunity to serve on juries, they should have the opportunities to serve on juries. I think the Act has gone too far in eliminating every spouse of every­ body under the disqualifications of

Section v. although, as I have said before, these are something,. these disqualifications 1are ones that I could live with and maybe they will be changed somewhere down the road. So, Mr. Speaker, I cannot agree and I cannot vote for a bill that creates second class citizenry of ~ny given segment of this society. That is wrong. I certainly would like to hear what members on the opposite side have to say about it. 7436 :

December 9, 1980 Tape No. 2780 DW - 2 MR. L. THOMS: I particularly want to hear what the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) has- to say about it, how she is going to be able to justify or weasle her way around voting for this particular piece of legislation. And, Mr. Speaker, unless the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) is prepared to amend this particular section, to take this

Section Vlll out of this bill,then I am afraid that I cannot support the bill and will be voting against it. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. mMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (BU:tt) : The hon. the Minister of Education. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to speak in support of this bill which I believe puts jury service on a rational and humane basis and which will represent a major improvement in the system of justice in our Province. Mr.

Speaker, in my opinion a major reform provision of this bill is the putting of women on the same terms of men when it comes to liability for service on juries. This is a reform long overdue. In 1970 the Royal Commission on the Status of Women,which was appointed by former Prime Minister Pearson on the urging of several women in Canada,made a ) 7437 : ::

December 9, 1980 Tape No.2781 SD - 1 MS. L. VERGE: recommendation that those provinces which at that time ·had not done so, require women to be liable for jury duty on the same terms as men. At that time, in 1970, women were not even eligible to serve on juries in our Province. A few years after that our Province passed legislation which, for the first time, allowed women to serve on juries 1 to take that responsibility and to take some place in the justice system of the Province, but which allowed women to opt out voluntarily simply because they were women.

That discriminatory Cp~sian was widely objected to by women's groups across the Province. I, as a member of the Corner Brook Status of Women Council. corresponded with the former Justice Minister,and I know the Status of Women Council based in St. John's did the same thing, urging the kind of reform which we see before us·today.

I think this reform,that of requiring women to serve on juries on the same terms as men,is important for at least three reasons, the first and most important of which is that it will allow greater possibilities for people accused of crimes or people involved in civil litigation and others involved in the judicial process to get a jury which is better representative of their peers, of the community where they live, having a better balance of both men and women. So the major advantage of this reform is an improvement in the judicial system.

Secondly, this reform is consistent with the philosophy of this government,and I find it very disappointing that the Liberal Party of Newfoundland is unable to agree to this philosophy, the philosophy holding that it is desirable to have full and equal participation of women with men in every segment of society. And third, it will ease the burden which has been placed on the men of this Province in serving on juries. Men in the past have had a disproportionate burden of serving 7438 -:

December 9, 1980 Tape No. 2781 SD - 2 MS. L. VERGE: on juries. I find it quite strange that the justice critic of the Liberal Party,of the Opposition, refuses to deal head on with this major significant reform measure of this bill. Instead of making a clear cut statement in support of this advance for the women of the Province, he skirts the issue by instead talking about other provisions of the bill. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. L. THOMS: MR. SPEAKER (Butt): 'MR. L. TH0\1S: Oh, oh. Point of order, Mr. Speaker, R:>mt of amer, the hen. IlBllber for Grand Bank.

Mr. ~, I_ _~ -CJUite clearly~ my speech that I agreed with the nain thrust of the bill 100 per cent. _ . .. MR. S'rAG;: But you will not·:vote fo;t" it. r- --· -·- ---· - ·- · MR. 'mcMS: __ ~:And now the minister is indicating - is trying to indicate to this House or give it the wrong impl;'ession to the House that I am against women being equal with men. I did not say any such thing. If she is going to - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEA.KER,: Order, plea .se! MR .. L. TH.OMS: -interpret what I am saying,then intel;'p1:"e .t it correctly 1 not falsely. ~- Sl'EAKE.R; Order, please!

The han. the P;-esident of the Council. MR, MARSHAL,L: That is not a point of order, it is a, point of MR. L. TH.OMS: I know that. ~. ~HALL: - I know, but it is a point of explanation. The han. member indicated,when he spoke that he was not going to vote for the bill. The purpose of the bill, the main principle of the bill, Mr. Speaker, is not to give the exemption to the women as corresponding with the male,so ~tly if he is going to vote against the principle of the bill 1 it is rather hard to see how he, with 7439

December 9, 1980 MR. W. MARSHALL: is for the bill. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SP~R' (Butt} : ~. W. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER: Tape No. 2781 SD - 3 forked tongue, can now say that he Oh, oh. Order, pl .ease! It is not a point of order. Order, please! There is obviously no p.oint of order but the hon. member for · Grand Ba .nk (Mr. L. Thoms) wanted to clarify tP,e remarks that were attributed to bim. MS. L. VERGE: The hon. Minister of Education. Mr. Speaker, this approach by my friend the justice critic, the hon. member f:or Grand Bank, is quite consistent 74L..O -::

December 9, 1980 Tape 2782 EC - 1 MS VERGE: with approaches he has taken on other important reform legislation that has been passed. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MS VERGE: There was the same kind of inconsistency in his approach to the Matrimonial Property legislation and also to the flag legislation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker, as I mentioned in my introduction, I believe that this bill makes provision for service on juries on a more rational and humane basis. I cite

Section 7, which allows for people to apply for exemptions from serving as jurors on the grounds that the person belongs to a religion making service on a jury incompatible with the beliefs of the religion,or where service on a jury may cause serious hardship or loss to that person or to others.

And then it goes on to say that that second basis for getting exemption from service on a jury 'shall be deemed to include a situation where that person has the sole care during all or any part of a day when a court is sitting, of ·a person, a chiid under the age of seven years not in full-time attendance at school or where that person has the sole care of a person who is infirm or aged or a person who is mentally incompetent.' I think this is very important for both men and women who might be asked to serve on a jury.

It recognizes the responsibility of parents for the care of young children, and I think the cut-off point at under seven and not in full-time attendance at school is quite reasonable. The court still has a discretion to decide on other circumstances which might amount to hardship or loss. In

summary, it gives me great pleasure to speak in support of this bill and I will be very happy to vote for it. Thank you. 7441

December 9, 1980 Tape 2782 EC - 2 SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it is not very often we hear from the Minister of Education (Ms Verge) in this House, not very often,unless she has some false accusation to make about somebody or some party that does not subscribe to her philosophy. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, I am happy to say that I do not subscribe to the minister's philosophy. I do not hear the minister getting up and supporting the Pro-life group in this Province.

The hon. member does not speak very often, but just spoke for.a few brief minutes and then had the House in an uproar and my hon. I I friend had to get up on a point of order. and you talk about inconsistency! Well, let me show the House now a classic example of inconsistency. The Minister of Education made a statement that everybody heard, made a statement in her opening remarks that the Prime Minister of Canada - Mr. Pearson 'she said,· but I believe it was Mr. Trudeau in 1970 -Mr. Pearson was not there in 1970. MS VERGE: The commission was set up under Pearson. MR.

NEARY: Under Pearson, I see, and carried on by Mr. Trudeau. But the han. the minister said that the Liberals do not believe in equal rights for men and women, after just making a statement, after just telling the House, after just telling this House that the late Mr. Lester B. Pearson, one of the greatest Liberal Prime Ministers of Canada, one of Canada's outstanding statesmen, the Liberal Prime Minister set up a Royal Commission to look into the status of women in Canada, ~et, t1r. Speaker, the Liberals did not subscribe to this philosophy. 7442 ' -:

December 9, 1980 Tape 2782 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: That was the breakthrough, by the way, that was the beginning of the breakthrough, followed on by another great Liberal Prime Minister, Pierre Elliott Trudeau, 7443 =

December 9, 1980 Tape No. 2783 EL - 1 MR. NEARY: that really developed women's lib MS. VERGE:: He has not inlpl:imented all the recamendations. HR. HANCOCK: At least he can get them, that is more than we can say for you. MR. THOMS: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY:----- Oh, go away, boy. Oh, oh! Oh, they have not implemented all the recommendations. Has the governmen~ the hon . member 3its in as a Cabinet Minister implemented all the recommendations? SOME HO~:r. MEMBERS : MS:""" VERGE": . MR. NEARY: Oh, oh! We are naking a lot of PrQqress. I beg your pardon?

You are making a lot of progress;? t'i'ell ,so is the Liberal Governmen t ­ up in Ottawa making a lot of progress. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: So, if I was the hon. Minister of Education (L. Verge),I would stick to matters with which she is familiar, Mr.Speaker. HR • .. STIRLING: That is not education. MR. NEARY: No, that is not education either.

Stick to matters of which she can get up and debate intell- igently in the House and not get up and make foolish state- ments about the member for Grand Bank (L.Thoms) and the Liberals, 'I wish they were consist:=nt .' After just t·elling us a few moments before that that it was a great Liberal ' Prime Minister of Canada who started women's lib in this country. MR. THOMS: She did not mention it. MR. NEARY: That is right. And now, Mr. Speaker, the bill itself~ Well, I am inclined to go along with many of the remarks made by - as a matter of fact, all the remarks made 7444 "'

December 9, 1980 Tape No. 2783 EL - 2 MR. NEARY: by my colleague, the member for Grand Bank(L. Thomsl. I think he made some very valid points. And I believe that the Minister of Justice (G.Ottenheimer) should consider very carefully some of the points raised by my colleague. All we need, Mr. Speaker, to get this bill through second reading this afternoon and not delay it for another week or so,is to bring in a very simple amendment. Bring in a simple amendment and eliminate this discrimination, the discrimination against senior citizens in this Province - it· is a form of discrimination , Mr.

Speaker. -and also amend the clauses that have to do with opting out, or eliminating, rather, wives of just about everybody in the Province. now I can understand why the member for St. John •·s: North (.Mr. Carter} would be eliminated. I do not think he is competent or capable of serving on a jury. I can understand that! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: I understand that you have to be physically and mentally competent in order to serve on a jury. That automatically eliminates a great number of people in this House, Mr. Speaker, but I would say more so the member for St. John's North.

I think the minister should reconsider that particular matter. I do not think it is necessary to eliminate spouses of members: of the House of Assembly, wives: of pol£cemen and lawyers. Hr. Speaker, what are the lawyers in th£s: Province? Are they God Almighty? Are they above everybody in this Province? It seems that lawyers get the preferential treatment on just about every­ thing in this Prov£nce. All lawyers: are automatically exempted from jury duty, all of them. It does not make any difference, Mr. Speaker, whether they are on the case or off the case, whether they belong to that law firm or this 7445 ':

December 9 1 1980 MR.~: Tape No. 2783 oc- 3 law firm, they are automatically exempt. How come? Why are they exempt? Wha.t gives them the preferential treatment? Mr. Speaker, I would think it would be the opposite. I would think that lawyers could serve a very useful purpose by being on juries. I think the situa.tion should be the reverse. I think we should be encouraging lawyers who are not associated with a given case to serve on juries. There is no just­ ification in this world for exempting lawyers from jury duty unless they are directly associated with the case. Why should they be eliminated? HR.

STAGG: It is hard on their income. MR. NEARY: It is hard on their income. Ye·s, Mr. Speaker, that is the truth of it. If they had to sit on a jury 7446 ~

pecember 9, 1980 Tape No. 2784 DW - 1 MR. S. NEARY: they would not be able to sock it to the poor people and their real estate transactions. MR . TULK: The member for Stephenville finally spoke the truth. MR. S. NEARY: The first time ever he made any sense. That is right. They would not be able to charge these exhorbitant fees they are charg­ ing,they would have to accept the same as everybody else. They would have to accept the same as every other man and woman in this Province who would be asked to serve on a jury, to do ju~y duty, and it might take them out of their office for a few ~ays.

They are not interested in seeing that justice is done. They are trained to make money. They are trained to pick the pockets of the clients, lawyers. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. S. NEARY: No. exception to the rule, that is a part of their training, Mr. Speaker, that is what they are trained for. And if my bon. friend does not want me to come along to his house tomorrow night, I will gladly decline. But that is what they are trained for, they are trained ~0 pick the pockets of their clients. And that is why they do not want to go down and do jury duty. And, Mr.

Speaker, lawyers prepared this bill, this piece of legislation, drafted by lawyers, so just a little stroke of the pen, exempt us because we have to go down to the registry office and spend five minutes searching down there and then charge our clients $700 or $800. So, Mr. Speaker, I am also tempted like my colleague there to vote against this bill if the minister does not amend it. And we are making some strong points and I am trying to rivet home some of the points made by my hen. colleague, the member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thoms). We are making some strong points and 7447 ~

,. ~ ··~ . ,,_.. ... - December 9, 1980 Tape No.2784 DW - 2 :tm• S, NEARY: strong arguments of why there are some simple amendments - MR. L. THOMS: We recommended some changes and they would not even comment on them. \"" · ~~ ·,S\ NEARY: No, that is right. The Minister of Education, as soon as she hears the name 'woman', as soon as she hears women mentioned she springs to her feet. It does not make any difference what it is about, it does not make any difference if s.he understands it, as long as the word ~women' is in there, up she springs. She fo~gets about everything else on the face of the earth.

But all you have to do is say 'woma ·n' and away she goes. MR. WHITE: MR. S. NEARY: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. S • NEARY: Elly Mae. Elly Ma e. Hear, hear! And away she goes. • It does not make any difference whether she is familiar with the subject o·r that she knows what she is talking about, as long as the word 'women 1 or'woman' is in there, look out. · Everybody else in this world is an ignoramus as far as women's rights are concerned except the hon. Minister of Education (Ms. Verge). MR. TULK: And the Premier. MR. S. NEARY: Well, the Premier has a couple of groups supporting him.

The Premier has made more enemies, I suppose, than all the premiers of Canada put together. He has alienated more peeple than all the other premiers in Newfoundland's history and in the whole of Canada. He does not have an ally left. He does not have an ally except in this Province he has a handfull of women's libbers and the Micmacs. 7448 -;

·. I fl . .... ....:: ~ t December 9, 1980 Tape No . 27 84 DW - 3 MR. S. NEARY: Is it any wonder, Mr. Speaker, that he has to have a life-sized blown up picture of himself put around in various government buildings. And as I said the other day is he trying to imitate Somoza , Idi Amin or Khoemini? AN HON. MEMBER: What about Smallwood? MR. S. NEARY: No, that is unprecedented. It never happened before in Newfoundland's history. It never happened in Canadian history when a Premier had himself framed and hung - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. S.

NEARY : - outside of ministers' offices and in the lobbys of public buildings. He will be hanged all right in due course, Mr. Speaker - is it hung or hang-? Which is right?. MR. TULK: HUng. AN HON . MEMBER: Hanged . MR. S. NEARY: No, he will be hanged in due course. The people will hang him in due course. But in the meantime nothing galls Newfoundlanders more to see money wasted on that sort of thing. Mr. Speaker, the passing of this bill, if it does pass.

And my hon. friend here has almost persuaded me to vote against it. see my hon. friend has to do now is hoist the flag and say, 'Vote against this bill'and I will vote against it, • 7449 ~

Tape No. 2785 AH-1 December 9,1980 MR.NEARY: because the arguments against certain clauses of this bill are very powerful indeed. And my hon. friend put up a better argument for having some of these clauses amended and changed than the hon. gentleman did in presenting the bill to the House in the first place. But if it does pass,perhaps the hon. gentleman might be able to tell us on second reading just what is the history, what is the situation regarding jury duty in this Province. I hear all kinds of stories that it is very difficult to get people to serve on juries. Is it because of the low pay?

Is it because people are in fear of doing jury duty? What is the problem? Is it because of loss of income,as in the case of lawyers? And, M~. Speaker, perhaps the hon. gentleman could also tell us,because,I must admit, Mr. Speaker, that this is an area, a field that I am not too familiar with, but we read quite a bit about jury tampering in the United States.What about in Newfoundland?And we have had examples in Canada. Have there ever been any examples of jury tampering in this Province? MR. STAGG: (Inaudible) MR. NEARY: Have there? My colleague says!' yes. Well,let us hear about it.

Let us get it out into the light of day. I know a case recently, in recent years 1 where a jury was selected at least three times before the court,or whoever agrees on a jury- is it the court? Who decides whether the jury is acceptable or not? AN HON.MEMBER: The judge. MR. NEARY: Who decides? SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: Does the judge decide that? Oh, oh! Well,you can challenge the qualifications of somebody to sit on a jury. I know lawyers 7450 -:

December ~ ,H8 0 Tape No. 2785 AH-2 MR. NEARY : who have gone around this town, this city in the dark of night trying to get something on somebody, trying to get something on somebody who has been invited to s·it on a jury so they can challenge his right to sit there, challenge his qualifications. Is this right? Does the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) want men and women of this Province to be exposed to that sort of tactic, that kind of goings on? And the hon. Government House Leader can look at me as if it has never happened. It has happened.

I know lawyers who have gone to friends of mine who have been invited to sit on a jury and asked them :oo you know anything about this one ·? Have you got anything on that one?' Is there any politics involved? An" reiigion involved? MR. CARTER: Why do you hate lawyers? MR.NEARY: Well, I cannot blame a lawyer for trying to win his case and he will use every method he can. But the point I am making, Mr. · Speaker, is that we are getting there, we are catching up to the United States where they have all . kinds of examples of tampering with juries.

And I am curious to know if it has ever happened in this Province and I am curious to know if it is · right and proper for lawyers to run around this city lik .e roosters with their heads cut off trying to ge .t something on someoody who has been invited to s~ on a jury. And they will stop at nothing, they will stop at nothing. I have even known them to go down to the Waterford Hospital to see if so-and-~o had ever been ~ admitted to the hospital to be dried out because he was an alcoholic. They have even gone that far, ~~. Speaker. How low will they stoop? MR.

CARTER: That has nothing to do with the act. 7451 -::

December 9,1980 Tape No. 2785 AH-3 MR . NEARY: It has all to do with the act. Mr. Speaker, I thir'~ we should have a 'l'ride -ranging debate on this sort of ·thing. It is something that 7452

December 9, 1980 Tape 2786 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: the average person is not all that familiar with, it is something that the average person would like to know more about. Most people, I would think, are scared of jury duty. Most citizens, men and women, do not relish the idea of having to decide on a defendant's verdict in a murder case or an armed robbery or in a rape case. Most people do not relish that idea. Perhaps the minister can give these people some reassurance when he closes the debate.

Perhaps the minister can eliminate a lot of fears in the minds of people, people who are afraid to be invited to serve on juries. As it says here in the opening paragraph, Clause 4, Jury Duty,'Every person who is a Canadian citizen resident in the Province, and is of the age of majority has the right and duty to serve as a juror.' I think that is a pretty fair statement. MR. THOMS: If you are sixty-five now that does not apply MR. NEARY: No, it does not apply to you if you are sixty-five~ I am coming to that .. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I was not quite sure when I was listening to my hon. friend, the member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thoms) if indeed you have to be a CanadiaTh. Do you have to be a Canadian to serve on a jury? Do you have to be a Canadian citizen? MR. THOMS: It is in the bill. MR. NEARY: I know what it says here - 'Every person who is a Canadian citizen.' All it says is that every person who is a Canadian citizen resident in the Province and is of the age of majority has the right and duty, but it does not say that you have to.

It says it is your moral obligation, it is your moral duty to serve on a jury, but it does not say you have to serve. 7453

December 9, 1980 Tape 278 6 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: Have non -canadians served on juries in this Province? ME;;. or_rENHEIME:R: I am sure there \O.lld have been a t.:iitE when British subjectS did because ob<iiouSly none of then were canadians l::le£oi:e 1949. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, what about that crowd of galoots over at Memorial University who refuse to became Canadian citizens.

They want to teach in this Province, they want to impart their knowledge to Newfoundland students, they want to take our pay, they want. to take our very generous pay, . the Queen's silver, but they do not want to became Canadian c·itizens. What about that group of ornery critters, Mr. Speaker? Is Canada not good enough for them? Will they be eliminated and exempted from jury duty? They do not pay any income tax, I understand. What about that crowd, Mr. Speaker? I would like to hear the minister tell us whether or not he subscribes to that philosophy? What aJ:Jout the Minister of Education (Ms Vez:ge) ?

Now there is a person, an individual of high principles. The university comes under the care of that particula ·r minister. She does not seem to care if that c:t:owd over there become Canadian citizens o:t: not. I will bet you if ~hey started a little 'women's libber' movement,though, 3nd called themselves the Al!lerican Movement of Liberated Women, she would be down there so fast, Mr. Speaker, you would not know what happened. The university comes under the care of that minister. What about that situation over there whe~e you have 7454

, . •' December 9, 1980 Tape No. 2787 SD - 1 MR. S. NEARY: this crowd of foreigners over there teaching Newfoundland folklore, Newfoundland folklore to Newfoundlanders, can hardly speak the Queen's English, re­ fusing to become Canadian citizens? Will they not have to do jury duty or will they? I am not sure whether they will or not. MR. OTTENHEIMER: citizens. MR. S. NEARY: graph IV, Jury Duty. MR. L. THOMS: and a duty. MR. S. NEARY: They would have to be Canadian It does not say that there in para- No, it just says they have a right 'Every person' - I will read it ~ again. I am not a lawyer, Mr.

Speaker, but I guarantee you that when it comes to zeroing in on a legal technical point I am not exactly the stunnedest in the world. ~

Section IV says this, and if the hon. gentleman can persuade me and convince me I would be glad to listen to his argument, but here is all it says, "Every person who it a Canadian citizen resident in the Province and is of the age of majority has the right and duty to serve as a juror". Well, I say to that, so what? That is a lovely statement, general, vague and flowery but it is not legally binding. It is not, Mr. Speaker. The hon. gentleman cannot argue with me, the hon. gentle- man cannot get up and persuade me that this makes it com­ pulsory for every Canadian to serve on a jury, it does not. I would say, Mr.

Speaker, that is what was meant in it but it is a sloppy piece of legal drafting, very sloppy indeed. MR. FLIGHT: No question about it. MR. BARRY: There is no doubt about that. MR. s. NEARY: It certainly is. Even my hon. learned friend, the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr.Barry), will have to agree with that. It does not make it compulsory for every Canadian to serve on a jury. 7455

De .cember 2, 1980 Tape No .. 2787 SD - 2 MR. S. NEl!. .RY: It is YeJ:Y poorly worded,_ !f that is what they wanted,they should have put it in there. Just imagine what - who is that famous criminal lawyeh in Canada? AN HON. MEMBER: J. J.. Robine .tte. MR. S. NEARY: ~ust imagine what R,obinette • would do with this, Mr. Speaker, Why, he would Itlak.e mince meat out of th .e Minister of Justice lMr. OttenheimerL SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. L. THOMS: You have a good point there. MR .

NE'ARY: Of course I have a point, All you have to do is read it;- a kindergarten student knows the difference of that, knows that this does not make it compulsory. Anybody can get out from under with this ~ wording in tills act. I challenge it. Some day maybe somebody will challenge it. If I did not want to serve on a jury I would challenge it in the courts. And, Mr , Speaker, I \.. am not at all happy with the exemptions of people who are physically handicapped.

I dq not know, the minister would have a aw:ful job to sell rna on the idea of disqualifying blind people unless it is because they cannot see the evidence. I do not know if that is his reasoning behind it. But why should blind people be disqualified from jury duty. why? Because they cannot see the evidence, is that it? MR. OTTENHEIMER: MR. THCMS: MR. NEARY: why is he disqualified? MR. BARRY: In large part. Would a person in a wheelchair? Well, a person in a wheelchair. Because he cannot see the witness, he cannot determine credibility of the witnesE. MR. S. NEAR Y : I see , SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh. MR.

S, NEARY: You have to s.ee . 7456 '

December 9, 1980 Tape No. 2787 SD - 3 MR. HANCOCK: You have to make up your mind with your eyes, is that it? MR. NEARY: You have to see the expression on somebody' s face·, is that it? Is that how you prove innocent or guil~ by eye to eye or the expression on th&ir face or whether they roll their eyes at the ceiling? In that case, Mr. Speaker, everybody who has appeared before the Public Accounts Committee so far is guilty because I saw ·' them moving, they were shifty' they rolled their eyes , they could not look you straight in the eye- SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, ~h! MR.

BARRY: They 'ioOUld. net be (:i:naud:il>le) questioned about that - MR. S. NEARY: ~-BARRY: probably. MR. S. NEARY: We had ministers .- BUt then· you wuid have .been· ccnv.i.et:ed as wall - that i.s right, Mr. S-peakerc we had ministers down before the Public Accounts Committee who were shivering and shaking, could not look you straight in the eye, who were. irritible and edgy and jumpy. Now, does that make them gUilty, Mr. Speaker? I would submit, Mr. Speaker, that the han. gentleman will have an awful job to convince me that blind people and people who are physically handicapped - well 1 what 7457 t ;.

I _ _ ; -:

December 9,1980 Tape No . 2788 AH-1 MR.NEARY: the hon. gentleman is saying, is, "What about young Terry Fox?'' His is physically handicapped. Would he be disqualified from jury duty in this Province because of his handicap? Of course he would. That is what the act says. Mr. Speaker, there is some poor drafting in this act. MR . HANCOCK: MR.NEARY: draftsmen because Did you say lawyers drew that up? I ~ not blaming it on the legal the buck stops with the minister, he is the one that has to peruse it before it is brought to the House. It seems to be to be very hastily prepared. They were trying to make a point. They were bringing in

an act on a matter of principle. They went one step ahead and one step back. They gave equal rights to men and women and then took away some rights from senior citizens in this Provinceand the blind and the physically handicapped. And 1 jus t imagine~This is the crowd that are going to go out and fight the government of Canada on the constitution and they cannot even draft a simple act for this House. SOME HON.MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.NEARY: They are going to go over to Great Britain, the ~mother of Parliaments, where you have as my hon. friend says,the best barristers and solicitors in the world • The y cannot even prepare

an act and they are going to go off on this great constitutional debate. I would say, "Fools rush in where angles fear to tread." And so, Mr. Speaker, it is going to take a little more convincing yet before I am persuaded to vote for this act My hon. colleague the member for Grand Bank ( Mr. Thoms) - 1-!R. H. Y~: Time is up. MR. NEARY: Yes, your time is up if you keep 7458

December 9,1980 Tape No. 2788 AH-2 MR. NEARY: putting coloured photographs of the Premier around. Mr . Speaker, my bon . colleague, now he is rushing around passing out little wallet sixed ones . How much is it costing the taxpayers of this Province for these photographs? HR . YOUNG: A point of order, ~1r. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER (Butt ) : ~ A point of order. The hon.l Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: I would like for the bon. member to withdraw that because I am not passing out any wallet sized ·photographs of the Premier. MR . NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I withdraw that. The bon. gentleman should not be so quick.

I said the Premier is passing them out, - ·not the bon. minister. But the bon. minister's department and his budget may be paying for them. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR.SPEAKER (Butt): of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: Oh, oh! Order, please! The bon. Minister Probably the bon. member is talking about some of the pictures that were over his desk one live when he was minister down there. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order. There was obviously no point of order but the,hon. Minister of Public Works . (Mr. Young) wanted to clarify some remarks. The hon.member for LaPoile. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, how low down can you get?

Is it any wonder that the people of this Province are starting to look at the government - SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR.SPEAKER: time has expired. MR. NEARY: Oh, oh! Order, please! The hon.member's Too bad , Sir, I was just - 7459

December 9,19 80 Tape No. 278 8 AH-3 SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave~ By leave. MR.Sl?EAKER (Butt): The hon.mernber for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker, reading the bill and its main principle and the reason why it was drafted,I think it was quite a sound principle. that was the one of establishing women with equal rights with men in this Province. As the Minister of Education (Ms Verge) pointed out, the late Prime Minister of Canada brought it in which was carried out under the present Prime Minister. The first woman Lieutenant-Governor of Ontario was '.. . . , . appointed by a Liberal government in Canada.

And I must say I really have to say that on this side for the most cases we gave· the Minister of Education (Ms Verge) points for standing up for women's rights in this Province and not only gave h.er rights but also gave her a great champion also . :. of . b~ing the first elected woman with the member for Gander (Hrs. Newhook) But in this regard she is also probably in the same category as the late Judy LaMarsh who encouraged ' . Mr. Pearson - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Order, please! I have difficulty hearing the member speaking. The hon . member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: - in the same category ,Mr.

Speaker, as the late Judy LaMarsh who also influenced the lat~. fODDer Prime Minister,Mr. Pearson. But I have to say that our job is to be the opposition for Her Majesty and our job is to go through legislation and see if there are any loopholes in it and point out the weaknesses . 74RO

December 9, 1980 Taoe No. 2789 DW - 1 MR . E. HISCOCK: of the legislation just like we did with the Municipal Act. Now the present Minister of Municipal Affairs 1Mrs. Newhook)brings in

an Act to amend the Act. If the Minister of Justice (Mr. Otten­ heimer) would only listen to the Opposition now 1the change would be brought in now and then they would not have to come back with another Act to change it. So, Mr. Speaker, two things in this bill that I feel should be changed-is that I do not think the lawyers, the solicitors or the barristers,should be exempted from this Province. I also feel that people who are blind or physically disabled should not be exempt from this duty.

People who are blind- okay, they may not _see- I had a brother, a late brother who was blind,but I can tell vou that if he was on .a jury with eleven other people . and that I would go as far as to say that he would think the system was arranged in such a way that his seeing the witness or seeing the evidence was not really the main cause in this case to define if a person were guilty or not guilty, Mr. Speaker, it would be how the evidence was present